350: Human Resources - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #350 | March 6, 2009 350: Human Resources Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 350 集 | 2009 年 3 月 6 日 350：人力资源 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass So how many years were you an executioner in your job?
序言 Ira Glass 那么您作为刽子手工作了多少年？
That period lasted for maybe five or six years.
那个时期大概持续了五六年。
That's a really long time.
那真的是很长一段时间了。
Chris Oh it was a very long time.
克里斯哦，那是一段很长的时间。
It was very, very depressing.
这是非常非常令人沮丧的。
Chris is a mild-mannered, decent guy who was an executioner in the sense that he fired over 1,500 people.
克里斯是一个举止温和、正派的人，他是一名刽子手，因为他解雇了 1,500 多人。
He was working for a financial services firm.
他在一家金融服务公司工作。
And the internet boom went bust, 9/11 happened, the economy was bad, business was terrible.
互联网的繁荣破灭了，9/11 事件发生了，经济很糟糕，生意很糟糕。
And as a result, call centers with hundreds of people were barely getting any calls.
结果，拥有数百人的呼叫中心几乎没有接到任何电话。
And when the company downsized, he had to see that all of these people, hundreds of them, were dismissed.
当公司裁员时，他必须看到所有这些人，数百人，都被解雇。
And then at the end of the process, he was fired.
然后在这个过程结束时，他被解雇了。
The whole unit I was in at that time, the organization decided that they were going to fold that unit and not be in that business directly.
我当时所在的整个部门，组织决定他们要折叠该部门，而不是直接从事该业务。
So did you have to fire yourself?
那么你必须解雇自己吗？
Was it like a samurai movie, where they gave you an order saying you will execute all these people and then you will execute yourself?
是不是像武士电影一样，他们给你一个命令，说你要处决所有这些人，然后你也要处决你自己？
No, it wasn't that way.
不，不是那样的。
Pretty much all of us took a turn.
几乎我们所有人都轮流了。
We were all in the wrong seat eventually.
最终我们都坐错了座位。
I'd say 90% of us, anyway.
无论如何，我想说的是我们90%的人。
You might notice that in my conversation with Chris, I use the word executioner, but he never does.
你可能会注意到，在我和克里斯的谈话中，我使用了刽子手这个词，但他从来没有这样做过。
He is such an old school human resources guy.
他是一位老派的人力资源专家。
So old school that decades ago, he was actually part of a group that helped popularize the phrase human resources department, replacing the term personnel department, which means that he is much too smooth, and experienced, and truly empathetic to ever use the word executioner.
几十年前，他实际上是一个团体的成员，这个团体帮助普及了“人力资源部”一词，取代了“人事部”一词，这意味着他太圆滑、经验丰富，而且真正具有同理心，以至于不会使用“刽子手”这个词。
Or the word fired for that matter.
或者为此而解雇这个词。
I would never use it.
我永远不会使用它。
I think that's something that-- I think that's an unhelpful and kind of a dated concept.
我认为这是一个无益且有点过时的概念。
If you've done it skillfully, they're going to feel that there was a parting of the ways, there was an exit of the unit, or whatever the factors are.
如果你做得很巧妙，他们会觉得有一个分道扬镳，有一个单位的出口，或者无论什么因素。
I know when I received a package, I came through the door and said, "Hey, I've been exited.
我知道当我收到包裹时，我进门说：“嘿，我已经出去了。
I got a package.
我收到一个包裹。
They're closing down the unit." And I hadn't actually thought of myself as being fired for a second.
他们正在关闭该单位。”我实际上从未想过自己会被解雇。
This is a very positive, glass half full kind of man.
这是一个非常积极、乐观的人。
So it was sort of miserable for him during those five or six years, flying around the country, checking into hotels and then planning what he was going to say to certain people.
所以那五六年对他来说有点痛苦，飞遍全国，入住酒店，然后计划他要对某些人说的话。
Preparing himself to go into these big call centers to arrange for hundreds of people to be fired at one time.
准备好进入这些大型呼叫中心，一次性解雇数百人。
Well it feels bad, obviously.
嗯，显然感觉很糟糕。
And it's a painful thing.
这是一件痛苦的事情。
Many people had grown up there for years.
许多人在那里长大多年。
And this was their life as well as their role and their job.
这就是他们的生活、他们的角色和工作。
And before you get there, they know.
在你到达那里之前，他们就知道了。
I mean the jungle drums are out there.
我的意思是丛林鼓就在那里。
And you walk into a call center, there isn't a receptionist.
当你走进呼叫中心时，没有接待员。
You walk down the halls and past the desks, and people will kind of look at you.
你走过大厅，经过桌子，人们会看着你。
Did you ever actually hear people say, as you walked by, here they come?
当你走过时，你是否真的听到人们说，他们来了？
That's happened, yes.
那已经发生了，是的。
I've had people say, is this the executioner?
有人问我，这是刽子手吗？
It's not-- you know they're wondering, is it going to be me?
这不是——你知道他们想知道，会是我吗？
How's it going to impact my life?
它将如何影响我的生活？
So just to be clear, so you've personally fired dozens of people and then overseen the firing of hundreds of people, right?
需要明确的是，您亲自解雇了数十人，然后又监督了数百人的解雇，对吗？
Yes.
是的。
Ira Glass OK, can I ask you to just fire me right now?
Ira Glass 好的，我可以请你现在就解雇我吗？
OK, OK.
好的，好的。
Hi, Ira.
嗨，艾拉。
How are you?
你好吗？
Ira Glass I'm doing OK.
艾拉·格拉斯 我很好。
Good, good.
好，好。
Ira, this is going to be a difficult conversation.
艾拉，这将是一场艰难的谈话。
I want to let you know that up front.
我想让你提前知道这一点。
You know we've been going through serious changes in the market environment over the last 12, 18 months.
您知道，在过去 12、18 个月里，我们经历了市场环境的严重变化。
And so the organization, I think as you know, is making some decisions to downsize.
因此，正如您所知，该组织正在做出一些缩小规模的决定。
And I have the bad news for you, which is that you're part of that downsizing.
我有一个坏消息要告诉你，那就是你也参与了裁员。
So you know your role--
所以你知道你的角色——
As Chris did this, from the moment that he said this is going to be a difficult conversation, I feel like he got the message across.
当克里斯这样做时，从他说这将是一场艰难的谈话那一刻起，我觉得他已经明白了这一信息。
I was going to be fired.
我快要被解雇了。
And then even though I knew this was made up, my mind went blank.
尽管我知道这是编造的，但我的大脑却一片空白。
His language was so abstract and businessy that it just let my mind kind of wander and think, "Oh, I've been fired.
他的语言是如此抽象和商业化，以至于让我的思绪飘忽不定，想：“哦，我被解雇了。
I've been fired.
我被解雇了。
What am I going to do now?" And then next thing I knew, he was talking about my severance package.
我现在该怎么办？”接下来我知道，他正在谈论我的遣散费。
And I'd like to tell you a little bit about the support that we're going to provide for you in terms of salary continuation, and medical coverage, and things like that.
我想告诉您一些关于我们将在工资延续、医疗保险等方面为您提供的支持。
So when Chris was done firing me, I asked him about how clinical his language had been, if that was a technique of some sort, to lull me into accepting my firing.
因此，当克里斯解雇我后，我问他他的语言有多冷静，是否是某种技巧，可以让我接受解雇。
It just comes out that way because you start with the facts.
事情就是这样，因为你从事实开始。
And you also need to be careful about what you say.
而且你还需要小心你所说的话。
So you don't want to enrage the person on a personal level.
所以你不想在个人层面上激怒对方。
So you really want to keep it calm and talk much more about their exit package.
所以你真的想保持冷静并更多地谈论他们的退出方案。
Now, did you get nervous as you were doing that?
现在，当你这样做的时候，你感到紧张吗？
Sure.
当然。
Ira Glass You sounded a little nervous.
Ira Glass 你听起来有点紧张。
And also I have to say, I am sitting here at a mixing console, so I'm controlling the volume of your voice.
我还必须说，我坐在调音台前，所以我正在控制你的声音音量。
The volume of your voice cut in half.
你的声音减半。
I've been pushing up the volume of your voice steadily the entire time.
我一直在稳步提高你的音量。
It's not a comfortable thing.
这不是一件舒服的事情。
It's not a comfortable thing.
这不是一件舒服的事情。
Even for you.
即使是为了你。
Chris No. It's never comfortable.
克里斯 不。这从来都不舒服。
It's something, I don't think-- you can do it 100 times and it still feels bad.
我不认为这是一件事情——你可以做 100 次，但仍然感觉很糟糕。
And I think it's because at the end of the day, people have much less control than organizations do in the world of work.
我认为这是因为归根结底，人们的控制力比组织在工作世界中的控制力要少得多。
The actual job finding processes are still pretty antiquated for individuals, whereas organizations can have recruiters and search firms, and advertise, and et cetera, et cetera.
对于个人来说，实际的求职过程仍然相当过时，而组织可以拥有招聘人员和猎头公司，并做广告等等。
An individual, they're kind of like a little boat in a big sea.
一个人，就像大海中的一叶小舟。
And they're going to bob around there.
他们会在那里晃动。
And they're going to have to scratch together a living again.
他们将不得不再次共同谋生。
The company always has more power than we do.
公司永远比我们更有权力。
And if we're lucky, they manage us well, they're fair, they keep us busy enough but not too busy.
如果我们幸运的话，他们管理得很好，他们很公平，他们让我们足够忙，但又不会太忙。
But we are not always lucky.
但我们并不总是幸运。
Today on our show we have stories about how our lives get run by these institutions.
今天在我们的节目中，我们将讲述这些机构如何管理我们的生活的故事。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life, distributed by Public Radio International.
这是来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Our program today, Human Resources, in three acts.
我们今天的节目《人力资源》分三幕。
Act One, The Rubber Room.
第一幕，橡胶室。
In that act, hundreds of public school teachers who are not in the classroom but who get paid full salaries to do nothing.
在该法案中，数百名公立学校教师虽然不在教室，但领取全额工资却无所事事。
Act Two, The Plan.
第二幕，计划。
The secret cabal who may or may not run real estate markets all over the country.
秘密阴谋集团可能会也可能不会经营全国各地的房地产市场。
Act Three, Almost Human Resources.
第三幕，几乎是人力资源。
Human management of animals has gotten to the point where even the federal government has started to build animals retirement homes.
人类对动物的管理已经发展到了连联邦政府都开始建造动物养老院的地步。
No kidding.
不开玩笑。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, Rubber Room.
第一幕，橡胶室。
A former schoolteacher named Jeremy Garrett decided to make a movie about one of the things the school system puts his colleagues through, something that seemed like terrible mismanagement to him in the New York City public schools where he worked.
一位名叫杰里米·加勒特 (Jeremy Garrett) 的前教师决定制作一部关于学校系统让他的同事经历的事情的电影，这对他工作的纽约市公立学校来说似乎是可怕的管理不善。
Jeremy had heard about teachers who were removed from their classrooms and sent to a place that everybody calls the rubber room.
杰里米听说过一些老师被从教室转移到一个大家都称之为“橡胶室”的地方。
Like for example this teacher that he interviewed, who did not want his name used.
比如他采访的这位老师，他不想透露自己的名字。
He was having personality conflicts with the principal.
他与校长有性格冲突。
And the principal suggested that he could be reassigned elsewhere.
校长建议他可以调到其他地方。
It sounded great to the teacher.
对老师来说听起来很棒。
And then for the next few days, instead of going to school, he went to this room in a Department of Education building.
接下来的几天，他没有去学校，而是去了教育部大楼的这个房间。
It's kind of embarrassing.
有点尴尬。
The first two days as I'm sitting down there, I was naive enough to say to the secretary, about what time do you think I'll be meeting with somebody?
头两天，当我坐在那里时，我天真地对秘书说，你认为我什么时候会见某人？
And she's like, well, you're just going to sit there until you do meet with somebody.
她说，好吧，你就坐在那里，直到你见到某人。
And then at the end of the second day, I'm like, this is crazy.
第二天结束时，我想，这太疯狂了。
I mean, I have an after school Regents Prep program to help the kids with the Regents Exam.
我的意思是，我有一个放学后的摄政准备计划来帮助孩子们进行摄政考试。
I'm like, this is nuts.
我想，这太疯狂了。
These kids have to take a Regents Exam.
这些孩子必须参加摄政考试。
They're like a week away.
他们还有一周的时间。
And then eventually the light goes on over your head as you start meeting other people that are sitting there too.
最终，当你开始遇到也坐在那里的其他人时，你的头顶上的灯亮了起来。
And you realize, all right, this is going to be a long term kind of thing.
你意识到，好吧，这将是一个长期的事情。
This is the rubber room.
这是橡胶室。
Some teachers are put there because they are accused of something like putting their hands on a kid, where the school would want them out of the classroom while it investigates and determines guilt or innocence.
一些老师被放在那里是因为他们被指控犯有诸如把手放在孩子身上之类的行为，学校希望他们在调查并确定有罪或无罪时离开教室。
But many of the teachers are just there for things like insubordination, unsatisfactory performance.
但许多老师只是因为不服从命令、表现不佳等原因而在那里。
And some teachers don't know why they're there.
有些老师不知道他们为什么在那里。
And instead of finding them guilty and firing them, or finding them innocent and returning them to the classroom, the New York schools just hold them, sometimes for years, doing nothing-- nothing.
纽约的学校并没有认定他们有罪并解雇他们，也没有认定他们无罪并将他们送回教室，而是只是关押他们，有时长达数年，什么也不做。
All day long, nothing-- in these big rooms.
在这些大房间里，一整天什么也没有。
The environment has a culture all its own.
环境有自己的文化。
And when you're there long enough-- like I was there for a year.
当你在那里呆了足够长的时间——就像我在那里呆了一年一样。
When you're there long enough, you see the stages of the culture.
当你在那里呆得足够长的时候，你就会看到文化的各个阶段。
New people sit there, and are very quiet, and say nothing to anybody under any circumstances.
新人坐在那里，非常安静，在任何情况下都不对任何人说话。
And then a couple weeks go by, they realize OK, I guess I'm going to be here for a while.
然后几周过去了，他们意识到，好吧，我想我会在这里呆一段时间。
I might as well start getting relaxed.
我不妨开始放松一下。
A lot of people come in with suit and tie because they figure they're going to meet with somebody immediately, and then get back into the classroom, because they think this whole thing is a joke.
很多人穿着西装打着领带进来，因为他们认为他们会立即与某人见面，然后回到教室，因为他们认为这整件事是一个笑话。
What am I here for in the first place?
我首先来这里是为了什么？
So once it dawns on them that you're going to be here for a while, then they start to loosen up.
因此，一旦他们意识到你要在这里待一段时间，他们就会开始放松下来。
They don't dress as nice.
他们穿得没那么好看。
They realize, I've got to be comfortable because I'm going to be sitting down in a room for six hours.
他们意识到，我必须感到舒服，因为我要在房间里坐六个小时。
Then on stage three, you start opening up, you start talking to people, you start interacting.
然后在第三阶段，你开始敞开心扉，开始与人们交谈，开始互动。
What you like?
你喜欢什么？
Oh, I like doing crossword puzzles.
哦，我喜欢做填字游戏。
You start building bonds with people.
你开始与人们建立联系。
This guy spent a full year in the rubber room.
这家伙在橡胶房里待了整整一年。
And then he was fired without any formal charges.
然后他在没有任何正式指控的情况下被解雇。
At any given time there are as many as a dozen or so rubber rooms around the city of New York, in all five boroughs, holding as many as 700 or 800 teachers.
在任何特定时间，纽约市所有五个行政区都有多达十几个橡胶室，可容纳多达 700 或 800 名教师。
Teachers show up every day, all day.
老师们每天都会出现，全天。
And they're paid their full salaries, meaning taxpayers are putting out tens of millions of dollars for this every year.
他们拿到全额工资，这意味着纳税人每年为此投入数千万美元。
Well, this teacher's film about the rubber room made us wonder more about what life is like inside the rubber room.
嗯，这部关于橡胶室的老师的电影让我们更多地想知道橡胶室里的生活是什么样的。
And with the filmmaker's permission, we asked the team at Radio Diaries-- Joe Richman, Samara Freemark, and Anayansi Diaz Cortes-- to go out and do a radio version of the story.
在获得电影制片人的许可后，我们邀请 Radio Diaries 的团队——乔·里奇曼 (Joe Richman)、萨马拉·弗里马克 (Samara Freemark) 和阿纳扬西·迪亚兹·科尔特斯 (Anayansi Diaz Cortes)——出去制作这个故事的广播版。
Here it is.
这里是。
My ?] name is [?
我的名字是 [？
Iago Kier ?].
伊阿古·基尔？]。
I'm 32 years old.
我今年32岁了。
I was an English teacher in the Bronx for three years.
我在布朗克斯当了三年英语老师。
My name is Grace Colon.
我叫格蕾丝·科隆。
I've been a teacher in New York City for 16 years.
我在纽约当老师已经 16 年了。
I'm starting my second year in the rubber room.
我即将在橡胶室开始第二年的学习。
My name is Jonathan.
我的名字是乔纳森。
I was a teacher in the New York City public school system for one month and in the rubber room for four months.
我在纽约市公立学校系统当了一个月的老师，在橡胶室当了四个月的老师。
Yeah.
是的。
I spent much longer in the rubber room than I did in the classroom.
我在橡胶室待的时间比在教室待的时间长得多。
I ?] was under a lot of stress at work.
我？]工作压力很大。
I was three months into teaching.
我开始教书三个月了。
And I rolled into work that day, it was two days after my 29th birthday.
那天我开始工作，那是我 29 岁生日后两天。
And I was going from group to group, helping them out if they had answers with the prompts, things like that.
我会从一个小组走到另一个小组，如果他们根据提示找到答案，就会帮助他们，诸如此类。
I'm sitting down with one particular group, and they're all speaking really loudly and I'd not paid attention.
我和一个特定的群体坐在一起，他们都大声说话，而我没有注意。
And the classroom and turned into a chaos.
而教室里顿时变得一片混乱。
The next thing I know, I'm screaming, I'm cursing, I am basically unhinged.
接下来我知道的是，我尖叫，我咒骂，我基本上精神错乱了。
And I picked up a chair.
我拿起一把椅子。
And I threw it at a blackboard.
我把它扔到黑板上。
And I didn't really get a lot of torque on it.
而且我并没有真正获得很大的扭矩。
I didn't really release it like I wish I could have.
我并没有真正释放它，就像我希望的那样。
And it bounced off a wall and on the way down nicked a student.
它从墙上弹起，在掉落的过程中划伤了一名学生。
I then left the classroom.
然后我就离开了教室。
I just couldn't believe what I had done.
我简直不敢相信我所做的事。
I went and splashed cold water on my neck.
我走过去，往脖子上泼了冷水。
And I just tried to assess just what I had done, you know.
我只是试图评估我所做的事情，你知道。
I remember going back into the classroom.
我记得回到教室。
And to them it was-- well I mean, looking at it objectively, to them, it must have been-- not fun per se-- but hugely entertaining to see an adult, someone in a position of power, completely lose their [BLEEP].
对他们来说，我的意思是，客观地看待它，对他们来说，这本身并不有趣，但看到一个成年人、一个有权势的人完全失去了他们的[BLEEP]，却是非常有趣的。
And then the next day, I'm taken out of the classroom and reassigned.
第二天，我被带出教室并重新分配。
My principal called me into the office just before Christmas, 2006.
2006 年圣诞节前夕，校长把我叫到办公室。
She had a paper.
她有一张纸。
And she told me that I am being reassigned to a reassignment center.
她告诉我，我将被重新分配到重新分配中心。
And I'm asking, what does this mean?
我想问，这是什么意思？
What does reassignment center mean?
转运中心是什么意思？
Somebody looked at me and said, well, you're in the rubber room.
有人看着我说，好吧，你在橡胶室里。
I said the word [BLEEP] in the hallway at my school in a conversation with another teacher.
我在学校走廊上与另一位老师交谈时说了[BLEEP]这个词。
And unbeknownst to me, there was an open door nearby, and a classroom of eighth graders heard me.
我不知道的是，附近有一扇开着的门，教室里的八年级学生听到了我的声音。
I knew that I was going to be in trouble.
我知道我会有麻烦了。
The principal pulled me aside on my way to my classroom and charged me with verbal abuse of a child.
校长在我去教室的路上把我拉到一边，指控我辱骂孩子。
It's child abuse, verbal abuse.
这是虐待儿童、言语虐待。
So she literally accused me of abusing a child by accidentally using a single four letter word.
所以她确实指责我不小心使用了一个四个字母的单词来虐待孩子。
And I had no idea at that moment I would never see my students again.
那时我不知道我再也见不到我的学生了。
I had no idea.
我不知道。
When I did go to the so-called reassignment center, you walk into a typical city office, almost like either welfare office, food stamp office.
当我去所谓的重新分配中心时，你走进一个典型的城市办公室，几乎就像福利办公室、食品券办公室一样。
People walking around, trying to look busy, not making eye contact.
人们走来走去，试图让自己看起来很忙碌，但不进行眼神交流。
You start thinking, where are you?
你开始思考，你在哪里？
And ?] there are about eight to 10 rooms.
还有？]大约有八到十个房间。
In every room there are about 10 people.
每个房间里大约有10个人。
And space is at a premium.
而且空间非常宝贵。
I mean, you had the black corner, you had the Hispanic corner, you had the few white people that were scared to death.
我的意思是，你有黑人角落，你有西班牙裔角落，你有少数被吓死的白人。
And so you have to make a quick decision, because everybody else is sort of looking you, sizing you up.
所以你必须快速做出决定，因为其他人都在看着你，打量你。
Where do I go?
我该去哪里？
My first day there, I went in and I reported to the supervisor in charge.
我在那里的第一天，我进去并向主管主管汇报。
She said, well go find yourself a chair, but be careful because people are territorial, and, in fact, fights have broken out over chairs.
她说，我们去给自己找张椅子吧，但是要小心，因为人们都有领地意识，事实上，为了椅子而发生的争斗已经发生了。
And I thought to myself, what are you talking about?
我心想，你在说什么？
Fights-- people-- fights breaking out among teachers over chairs?
老师之间为了椅子而打架？
And I went and I saw-- the first open seat I saw, I went and I sat down in it.
我去了，我看到了——我看到的第一个空座位，我走了进去，坐了下来。
And I opened up my book.
我打开了我的书。
And the person next to me said, you can't sit there.
我旁边的人说，你不能坐在那里。
That's blah-blah-blah's seat.
那是巴拉巴拉巴拉的座位。
And I said, well where's blah-blah-blah?
我说，那么等等等等在哪里？
He said, well, he didn't come in, because it's Friday and he wanted the three day weekend.
他说，好吧，他没有进来，因为今天是星期五，他想要三天的周末。
And I said, well, when he comes in, we could talk about it then.
我说，好吧，当他进来的时候，我们可以谈谈这件事。
So she got up and left the room.
于是她起身离开了房间。
And a minute later she came back and she said, I found you a seat.
一分钟后她回来了，她说，我给你找了个座位。
I got you a seat.
我给你安排了座位。
You'll like it better there, I can see you like to read.
你会更喜欢那里，我看得出来你喜欢读书。
It's a quieter room.
这是一个比较安静的房间。
So I thought that's a friendly thing to do.
所以我认为这是一件友好的事情。
And she went and took me in the other room and she asked my name.
她走过去把我带到另一个房间，问我的名字。
And she said, everybody this is Jonathan.
她说，大家这是乔纳森。
And she went around the room.
她在房间里走来走去。
And she introduced me to everyone in the room.
她把我介绍给房间里的每个人。
And she said, here's your chair.
她说，这是你的椅子。
And sure enough, there was an empty chair.
果然，那里有一张空椅子。
And then she left.
然后她就离开了。
And I went and I sat down.
我走过去坐下。
And the woman a couple of chairs away said, you can't sit there.
几把椅子外的那个女人说，你不能坐在那里。
That's blah-blah-blah's seat.
那是巴拉巴拉巴拉的座位。
And I want to emphasize, I was not in a good mood.
我想强调的是，我的心情并不好。
I was not happy to be there.
我不高兴在那里。
I didn't know what was going on with me.
我不知道我发生了什么事。
I was I was feeling hostile.
我当时感到充满敌意。
And well, I'm kind of a big guy.
好吧，我是个大人物。
And this is a rather petite woman some years older than me.
这是一个比我大几岁的相当娇小的女人。
And I leaned right over and I got in her face.
我猛地倾身，挡住了她的脸。
I said, now you listen to me.
我说，现在你听我说。
I'm going to sit in that chair.
我要坐在那张椅子上。
And if anybody doesn't like it, if anybody's got a problem about it, you send them right to me and we'll talk about it.
如果有人不喜欢它，如果有人对此有疑问，你可以将它们直接发送给我，我们将讨论它。
And I sat right down, and I opened my book.
我坐下来，打开书。
And she gave me a dirty look and didn't say anything.
她看了我一眼，什么也没说。
So I sat in that very same chair every day.
所以我每天都坐在同一张椅子上。
And that was my chair.
那是我的椅子。
And sometimes I could get an empty chair and put it in front of me and turn it around and use it as a table.
有时我可以找一把空椅子放在我面前，然后把它转过来用作桌子。
And that was nice.
那很好。
My ?] name is [?
我的名字是 [？
Gail Friedman.
盖尔·弗里德曼.
?] I am now in the rubber room.
？] 我现在在橡胶室。
And I've been in there since February of 2007.
我从 2007 年 2 月起就一直在那里。
The children don't know what happened to me.
孩子们不知道我发生了什么事。
They might have thought maybe I moved away or I went to another school.
他们可能认为我可能搬走了或者去了另一所学校。
You're just not there anymore.
你只是已经不在了。
You're in this forgotten little place.
你就在这个被遗忘的小地方。
My name is Pete Sinclair, but that's really not my name.
我的名字是皮特·辛克莱，但这实际上不是我的名字。
And I have been in the rubber room for about a year and a half.
我在橡胶室已经呆了大约一年半了。
It's that feeling of lack of momentum, of anything moving.
就是那种缺乏动力、任何移动的东西的感觉。
It's like purgatory.
就像炼狱一样。
And time just goes by.
时间就这么过去了。
And everyone is just sort of playing cards.
每个人都只是打牌。
It's just like you sit and wait.
就像你坐着等待一样。
As if you'd be in a waiting room, except that you're waiting for months.
就好像你在候诊室里一样，只不过你要等几个月。
Sometimes people wait for years.
有时人们会等待数年。
You just wait.
你等着吧。
When I first come in to the rubber room in the mornings, I look at the papers.
当我早上第一次进入橡胶室时，我会看报纸。
Then I look through my bag, I usually stick bills and stuff, my checkbook.
然后我检查我的包，我通常贴钞票之类的东西，我的支票簿。
You just kind of go there, you sign in, you sit down, you stare at the wall.
你只需去那里，登录，坐下，盯着墙壁。
You get into a conversation with somebody.
你与某人交谈。
You make a phone call.
你打个电话。
You check your stocks if you want.
如果你愿意的话，你可以检查你的库存。
Some people play cards.
有些人打牌。
Some people gossip.
有些人八卦。
Some people have portable VCRs.
有些人有便携式录像机。
They look at movies.
他们看电影。
And then there were little classes that were held.
然后举办了一些小课程。
I took Spanish classes from a Spanish teacher.
我从一位西班牙语老师那里上了西班牙语课。
There were drawing classes.
有绘画课。
There was a book club, very popular.
有一个读书俱乐部，很受欢迎。
And they would meet twice a week for 90 minutes.
他们每周会面两次，每次 90 分钟。
And you would have 20 people in this little room that housed the refrigerator and the microwave.
这个配有冰箱和微波炉的小房间里可以容纳 20 个人。
And they'd be talking about the novel or what have you.
他们会谈论小说或者其他什么。
But you know, that might be three or four hours a week.
但你知道，每周可能需要三四个小时。
Even if you did all the activities, it's just a few hours a week.
即使您完成了所有活动，每周也只有几个小时。
And there are a lot of people who would just bring in pillows and would sleep all day.
还有很多人只需要带上枕头就可以睡一整天。
No lesson plans, no homework, no papers to grade, no dealing with parents, no dealing with screaming kids.
没有课程计划，没有家庭作业，没有要评分的论文，没有与父母打交道，没有与尖叫的孩子打交道。
And indeed there are teachers and reverence for years collecting the salary for a job that they're not doing.
事实上，多年来，有老师和人们对他们不做的工作收取工资。
And for some people that's not so bad.
对于某些人来说，这并没有那么糟糕。
If you really hated teaching, and you really liked playing cards, the money's the same.
如果你真的讨厌教学，而你真的喜欢打牌，钱是一样的。
So yeah, the noise for me might have been the worst part of actually being there.
所以，是的，噪音对我来说可能是实际在那里最糟糕的部分。
And the sound of it was really the most distinctive thing of it.
而它的声音确实是它最独特的地方。
I wanted to get a souvenir.
我想买一份纪念品。
I brought in a little digital voice recorder.
我带来了一个小型数字录音机。
So I just laid the recorder down on the table.
所以我就把录音机放在桌子上。
I'll play it for you.
我会为你演奏。
[INTERPOSING VOICES] It's very crowded, the acoustics are terrible, very echoey.
[插入声音] 非常拥挤，音响效果很糟糕，回声很大。
And teachers like to talk.
而且老师喜欢说话。
I agree.
我同意。
We're off from what society condones as the norm.
我们偏离了社会所容忍的常态。
Like at a loud party, where you're talking to somebody and after a while you realize that you're both shouting.
就像在一个喧闹的聚会上，你正在和某人交谈，过了一会儿你发现你们都在喊叫。
And then you realize that everybody in the room is shouting.
然后你意识到房间里的每个人都在喊叫。
[INTERPOSING VOICES] Pete Sinclair It's really difficult to sit there and try to read or get anything done when people are yelling, or fighting, or screaming over a missing bottle of jelly in the refrigerator.
[插入声音] Pete Sinclair 当人们大喊大叫、打架或因冰箱里丢失的一瓶果冻而尖叫时，坐在那里阅读或完成任何事情真的很困难。
You have people that are in denial.
有人否认。
You have people that are angry.
你身边有人很生气。
You have people that have shut down.
有些人已经关闭了。
You have people that have introverted into not even speaking.
有些人性格内向，甚至不说话。
They just come in and exist.
他们只是进来并存在。
I mean there are some really nutty people in there.
我的意思是那里有一些非常疯狂的人。
You don't want to make eye contact.
你不想进行目光接触。
There have been a lot of fights.
发生过很多次争吵。
The dumbest stuff.
最愚蠢的东西。
Someone went into the refrigerator and stole someone's butter.
有人走进冰箱偷了某人的黄油。
There have been arguments over paper, over someone stealing someone's pen.
人们曾因纸张、有人偷了别人的笔而发生过争论。
Some of the people in the room like the lights off because it's more restful and maybe they even want to sleep.
房间里的一些人喜欢关灯，因为这样更安静，也许他们甚至想睡觉。
And the rest of the people want the lights on, because they want to read or play cards.
其余的人希望灯开着，因为他们想读书或打牌。
So somebody will get up and turn the lights off.
所以有人会站起来关灯。
And somebody else will get up and turn the lights back on.
其他人会站起来把灯重新打开。
It's a conflict of wills.
这是意志的冲突。
There were fights, a couple of fights.
有打架，有几次打架。
I heard them because they'd be going on, say, in the room next door in the hallway, and then everybody would spill out into the hallway to go watch.
我听到他们的声音是因为他们会在走廊隔壁的房间里进行，然后每个人都会涌到走廊上观看。
It's a prison type of culture.
这是一种监狱式的文化。
If you go out of your comfort zone then people will mess with you.
如果你走出自己的舒适区，人们就会来骚扰你。
Let's say if I were to go to the white area and decide I want their chair and stuff.
假设我要去白色区域并决定我想要他们的椅子和东西。
The people there are going to look out for their chairs.
那里的人们会留意他们的椅子。
And so there will be a confrontation.
所以就会有对抗。
You want to be very careful not to step on anybody's space, because space seems to be the last control.
你要非常小心，不要踩到任何人的空间，因为空间似乎是最后的控制权。
That's the last thing they have control over.
这是他们最后能控制的事情。
People fight over the few things that there are to fight over, such as territory.
人们会为了一些可以争夺的东西而争斗，比如领土。
It's this amazing thing because one of the more popular members of the group went back to her school.
这是一件令人惊奇的事情，因为该团体中最受欢迎的成员之一回到了她的学校。
She got sent back.
她被送回来了。
And there were literally tearful farewells.
确实是含泪告别。
There were flowers.
有花。
There was cake.
有蛋糕。
Goodbye, goodbye.
再见，再见。
And before the end of the day, somebody had claimed her seat.
当天结束之前，有人占据了她的座位。
And everybody had kind of moved up in the pecking order, territorially.
每个人的地位、领地地位都有所提升。
It's not so much the chair as it is the real estate it sits upon.
与其说它是一把椅子，不如说它是它所坐的不动产。
So what you want is a nice spot.
所以你想要的是一个好地方。
It's nice to sit near a window.
坐在靠近窗户的地方真好。
It makes a difference whether there's some shrieking banshee four feet away from your ear.
离你耳朵四英尺远的地方是否有尖叫的女妖，这会产生影响。
It makes a difference whether the light fixture flickers.
灯具是否闪烁会产生影响。
I mean, you're going to be there for seven hours a day, five days a week.
我的意思是，你每周要工作五天，每天七个小时。
You wouldn't think it would make so much of a difference.
你不会认为这会产生如此大的影响。
But you're there for a long time, so it does.
但你在那里待了很长时间，所以确实如此。
The ?] strangest feeling is getting up in the morning with a purpose-- taking a shower, brushing your teeth, having that first cigarette, getting on the train, dealing with all these commuters-- to show up to work to do nothing.
最奇怪的感觉是早上起床有一个目的——洗澡、刷牙、吸第一支烟、上火车、与所有这些通勤者打交道——去上班却什么也不做。
And I think I think it's made that way.
我想我认为它就是这样制作的。
I think that's kind of the point.
我认为这就是重点。
They punish you with boredom.
他们用无聊来惩罚你。
It's kind of an indelicate question to ask somebody how long they've been there.
询问某人在那里呆了多久是一个不礼貌的问题。
It's a little bit like asking somebody what they're in for.
这有点像问某人他们的目的是什么。
It's embarrassing.
真尴尬。
It's humiliating.
这太丢脸了。
After ?] about a week of going there and reading all day, you begin to realize that there is no cavalry.
？] 去那里并整天阅读大约一周后，你开始意识到那里没有骑兵。
There is no one coming in your defense.
没有人来为你辩护。
There's no one beating down the door, saying, give us back our teacher.
没有人敲门说，把我们的老师还给我们。
There's no one making phone calls to clear your name.
没有人打电话来为你洗清罪名。
And that's when it hits you.
就在那时，它击中了你。
That's when you realize, holy crap, I could be here indefinitely.
那时你就会意识到，天啊，我可能会无限期地待在这里。
When you first start out, you're in denial.
当你刚开始时，你会否认。
And you're sort of frozen.
而你有点被冻结了。
You have no emotion.
你没有任何情感。
I think that went on for me for maybe two to three months.
我想这种情况对我来说可能持续了两到三个月。
And then after six months, at that point we had our summer vacation.
六个月后，我们就开始放暑假了。
You come back, and then you get angry all over again.
你回来了，然后你又生气了。
Here you are, starting again, yet a new school semester, in this limbo.
在这里，你又开始了，又是一个新的学期，在这样的困境中。
The thing with the Department of Education, it's such a large system.
教育部是一个很大的系统。
A million kids, a million students.
一百万个孩子，一百万个学生。
If you begin to think about it, it's staggering.
如果你开始思考这个问题，就会感到震惊。
There are 70,000 teachers.
有教师7万人。
So even if 700 have these Kafka-esque things happening to them, that's still only one in 100.
因此，即使 700 人遇到过这些卡夫卡式的事情，那也只是百分之一。
Wait, that is a lot.
等等，这已经很多了。
1%.
1%。
I feel that the Department of Education, in many ways, is hiding a secret.
我觉得教育部在很多方面都隐藏着一个秘密。
The rubber room.
橡胶室。
I certainly hear the term rubber room thrown around.
我当然听说过“橡胶室”这个词。
I use the phrase reassignment center.
我使用短语“重新分配中心”。
Temporary reassignment center.
临时安置中心。
My name is Dan Weisberg.
我的名字是丹·韦斯伯格。
I'm the chief executive labor policy for the New York City Department of Education.
我是纽约市教育部劳工政策的首席执行官。
I don't doubt that there are teachers in the reassignment centers who believe, A, they didn't do anything wrong, or there are teachers there who think that what they did really doesn't warrant the punishment, as they see it, of being reassigned.
我毫不怀疑，重新分配中心的有些老师相信，A，他们没有做错任何事，或者那里的老师认为，他们所做的事情确实不值得受到重新分配的惩罚，正如他们所认为的那样。
In some cases those are difficult decisions.
在某些情况下，这些都是艰难的决定。
But we are entrusted with the safety of over a million kids, including, by the way, mine.
但我们肩负着超过一百万孩子的安全责任，顺便说一句，也包括我的孩子。
The benefit of the doubt has to go to the kids.
怀疑的好处必须归于孩子们。
We're not an auto company.
我们不是一家汽车公司。
We're not an accounting firm.
我们不是会计师事务所。
We're dealing with something unique, and that is the well being of children.
我们正在处理一些独特的事情，那就是儿童的福祉。
My sense is that there's been a more aggressive policy about trying to bring teachers up on charges, and as a result the numbers of people going into the rubber room have increased a lot lately.
我的感觉是，针对教师的指控采取了更积极的政策，因此最近进入橡胶室的人数增加了很多。
I'm Sam Freedman and I write the On Education column for the New York Times.
我是萨姆·弗里德曼，我为《纽约时报》撰写教育专栏。
And I've been covering education on and off for about 30 years.
大约 30 年来，我一直断断续续地报道教育。
There are many incompetent, and some abusive and exploitative teachers who are totally deserving of having their licenses taken away, and who should be never allowed to be in the presence of children.
有许多无能、虐待和剥削性的教师，他们完全应该被吊销执照，并且永远不应该允许他们出现在儿童面前。
That said, this is still not the humane way to deal with them.
尽管如此，这仍然不是处理他们的人道方式。
And it has also, in my view, not been an effective way of separating out who's facing legitimate accusations and who's there because of a grudge with a principal and is otherwise an entirely capable educator.
而且，在我看来，这也不是一种有效的方法来区分谁面临合法指控，以及谁因为与校长的积怨而在那里，而谁是一位完全有能力的教育者。
There isn't a whole lot they can do about it, except to have their day in court, or more exactly, have their date with a hearing officer.
他们对此无能为力，除了出庭，或者更准确地说，与听证官约会。
I'm starting my second year in the rubber room.
我即将在橡胶室开始第二年的学习。
I'm waiting to have my hearing.
我正在等待听证会。
My case was very, very different.
我的情况非常非常不同。
In my case, I had a principal who was willing to go to bat for me.
就我而言，我有一位愿意为我辩护的校长。
After two weeks I was reinstated and allowed to come back and teach.
两周后，我被复职并被允许回来教书。
Well, I fully expect to be fired.
好吧，我完全预计会被解雇。
And I've got another job.
我还有另一份工作。
By most measures it's a better job.
从大多数方面来看，这是一份更好的工作。
I'll make a little more money.
我会多赚一点钱。
I have a little more responsibility.
我还有一点责任。
There's more room for advancement.
还有更大的进步空间。
But it's not what I chose.
但这不是我选择的。
I chose to teach in the public schools.
我选择在公立学校教书。
And I don't think I'm going to make the kind of difference in people's lives, doing what I'm going to be doing, that I could have made teaching.
我不认为我会为人们的生活带来那种改变，做我将要做的事情，我本来可以从事教学工作。
Our story on the rubber room was produced by Joe Richman, Samara Freemark, and Anayansi Diaz Cortes of Radio Diaries.
我们关于橡胶室的故事是由 Radio Diaries 的 Joe Richman、Samara Freemark 和 Anayansi Diaz Cortes 制作的。
Their website, where you can hear their stories for absolutely free, radiodiaries.org.
他们的网站 radiodiaries.org，您可以在这里完全免费地听到他们的故事。
The movie about rubber rooms that inspired us to do this story is at rubberroommovie.com.
启发我们创作这个故事的关于橡胶房的电影位于rubberroommovie.com。
Coming up, in managing the lives of apes for medical research, we have accidentally given them a taste for one TV show, in particular.
接下来，在管理猿类的生活以进行医学研究时，我们不小心让它们尝到了一个电视节目的味道。
What that show is in a minute.
那个节目是什么在一分钟内。
From Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续进行时，来自芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose a theme and bring you a variety of different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，我们的节目每周都会选择一个主题，并为您带来有关该主题的各种不同类型的故事。
Today's show, Human Resources.
今天的节目，人力资源。
Stories of the ways that our lives are controlled by managers, bosses, institutions, central offices, home offices, all far away from us.
关于我们的生活如何被经理、老板、机构、中央办公室、家庭办公室控制的故事，所有这些都离我们很远。
And we've arrived at Act Two of our show.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act Two, The Plan.
第二幕，计划。
American cities have gone through a massive wave of gentrification in the last few decades.
过去几十年来，美国城市经历了大规模的中产阶级化浪潮。
But to a lot of people, that process does not represent the natural ebb and flow of the real estate market, but something more sinister, more orchestrated.
但对很多人来说，这个过程并不代表房地产市场的自然潮起潮落，而是更险恶、更精心策划的东西。
It's a plot, and they are its targets.
这是一个阴谋，而他们就是它的目标。
One of our producers, Jon Jeter, headed to the changing neighborhoods of Washington, DC, to try to get a picture of how people see this particular plot.
我们的制片人乔恩·杰特 (Jon Jeter) 前往华盛顿特区不断变化的社区，试图了解人们如何看待这一特定情节。
John Burroughs Elementary is one of those public schools that parents feel lucky to have in their neighborhood.
约翰·巴勒斯小学 (John Burroughs Elementary) 是让家长感到幸运的公立学校之一。
Maria Jones lives right across the street from the school in the northeast corridor of Washington, DC.
玛丽亚·琼斯住在华盛顿特区东北走廊学校的街对面。
And her daughter is in kindergarten here.
她的女儿在这里上幼儿园。
We have a great principal, wonderful teachers, everybody knows one another.
我们有一位出色的校长，出色的老师，每个人都彼此认识。
The parents work well, an active PTA body.
父母工作良好，是活跃的家长会机构。
We love this school.
我们喜欢这所学校。
But a few months ago, Maria and other parents were at the school for career day when they heard the news.
但几个月前，玛丽亚和其他家长在学校参加职业日时听到了这个消息。
The mayor was going to close 23 public schools, including theirs.
市长打算关闭 23 所公立学校，包括他们的学校。
And what was shocking were the reasons the mayor gave: falling enrollment and poor performance.
而令人震惊的是市长给出的理由：入学率下降和表现不佳。
Enrollment isn't falling at Burroughs, Maria says.
玛丽亚说，巴勒斯学院的入学率并没有下降。
Our enrollment has been building.
我们的入学人数一直在增加。
And then the other thing, failing test scores.
然后是另一件事，考试成绩不及格。
We are not failing at all.
我们根本没有失败。
We are 15th in reading out of 81 District of Columbia public elementary schools.
我们的阅读成绩在哥伦比亚特区 81 所公立小学中排名第 15。
We are in the top 20 percentile in math out of all 81 elementary schools.
我们的数学成绩在所有 81 所小学中名列前 20%。
And so the question is, why would they want to close the school, which the neighborhood seems to enjoy, which is sort of an anchor?
所以问题是，他们为什么要关闭这所学校，而社区似乎很喜欢这所学校，这可以说是一个锚点？
It's a beautiful school from what I can see.
从我的角度来看，这是一所美丽的学校。
What the community is saying is that it must be a land grab.
社区的说法是，这肯定是抢地。
Because if you look all the way down into 20th Street and all the way down to 18th, this is one beautiful long block.
因为如果你一直往下看 20 街，一直往下看 18 街，你会发现这是一个美丽的长街区。
And then we have this great green field that's just there for kids to play on.
然后我们就有了一片大绿地，供孩子们玩耍。
And everybody knows that the developers have converged upon DC and are just going after the property that they want.
大家都知道，开发商已经聚集在华盛顿特区，只是为了追求他们想要的房产。
So this has got to be one of those scenarios.
所以这一定是其中一种情况。
What else can it be?
还能是什么？
We're not failing.
我们没有失败。
We're a model school.
我们是模范学校。
In Washington DC, it's not difficult to find people who believe in something called the plan.
在华盛顿特区，不难找到相信该计划的人。
The Plan.
计划。
It is essentially a conspiracy theory, dating back at least 40 years to the '68 riots, when whites fled the city in droves, leaving behind a black majority.
这本质上是一个阴谋论，可以追溯到至少 40 年前的 68 年骚乱，当时白人成群结队地逃离这座城市，留下了占多数的黑人。
Some people, white and black, have for years written off the plan as paranoia.
多年来，一些人，无论是白人还是黑人，都因为偏执而放弃了这个计划。
But residents like Maria look around and see new homes and new shops, and new neighbors, and-- this seems to be the litmus test for whether your neighborhood is gentrifying-- white couples walking their dogs.
但像玛丽亚这样的居民环顾四周，看到了新的住宅、新的商店、新的邻居，还有遛狗的白人夫妇——这似乎是检验你的社区是否中产阶级化的试金石。
They never saw that before.
他们以前从未见过这一点。
It doesn't seem like a conspiracy, some hidden conspiracy.
这看起来不像是一场阴谋，而是有什么不可告人的阴谋。
It seems like an out and out plan for displacement.
这似乎是一个彻头彻尾的位移计划。
Especially when you have other buildings-- like the Pierce School, Lovejoy, and some of the other buildings-- that have been turned into condos, that have clearly been closed as schools and opened up with the same structure as million dollar condos that people are living in now.
特别是当你有其他建筑物——比如皮尔斯学校、洛夫乔伊和其他一些建筑物——已经变成了公寓，这些建筑显然已经作为学校关闭，并以与人们现在居住的价值百万美元的公寓相同的结构开放。
You don't just hear this kind of talk in DC.
你不仅仅在华盛顿听到这样的言论。
In fact, all across the country, if you're black and older than, say, 20, chances are you've heard of some shadowy scheme in your city to move blacks out of certain neighborhoods and whites in.
事实上，在全国各地，如果你是黑人，年龄超过 20 岁，你很可能听说过你所在城市的一些秘密计划，将黑人迁出某些社区，将白人迁入。
My dad has been telling me this for years.
多年来我父亲一直告诉我这件事。
I am 44 years old.
我今年44岁。
I can remember when I was growing up my dad would always say, well you know, Valerie, there's a plan.
我记得在我成长的过程中，我父亲总是说，瓦莱丽，你知道，有一个计划。
There's a plan.
有一个计划。
Valerie Leonard grew up on Chicago's south side, in a neighborhood called Lawndale, where she still lives and fights against gentrification.
瓦莱丽·伦纳德 (Valerie Leonard) 在芝加哥南部一个名为劳恩代尔 (Lawndale) 的社区长大，她仍然居住在那里并反对中产阶级化。
He was saying this in the '60s and the '70s.
他在 60 年代和 70 年代说过这句话。
You know, this may be a black neighborhood now.
你知道，现在这里可能是一个黑人社区。
But there's a plan on the books that they're going to displace black people and push enough people out so that it's only 25% black.
但有一个计划，他们将取代黑人，并将足够多的人赶出去，这样黑人的比例就只剩下 25%。
And I said, mm-hmm.
我说，嗯嗯。
You wouldn't believe him, because my dad was one of those conspiracy theorists.
你不会相信他，因为我父亲是那些阴谋论者之一。
And lo and behold, I'm an adult now, and everything that he said is coming to fruition.
你瞧，我现在已经是成年人了，他所说的一切都将实现。
Did your father ever have or share with you any specific details of what he thought was the strategies that the city leaders would adopt to take back this land?
你父亲是否曾经有过或与你分享过他认为市领导为夺回这片土地而采取的策略的具体细节？
I think one of them was planned neglect, that they would just let it run down to nothing, which was true, and let it be overcome with crime.
我认为其中之一是有计划的忽视，他们只会让它化为乌有，这是事实，并让它通过犯罪来克服。
And then once the community runs down, they'll come back and grab the land at a much cheaper price and rebuild it for their own people.
然后，一旦社区耗尽，他们就会回来以更便宜的价格夺取土地，并为自己的人民重建它。
In New Orleans, Edmond Louis remembers talk of a conspiracy back in the '70s, when he was in elementary school, shortly after the city elected its first black mayor.
在新奥尔良，埃德蒙·路易斯 (Edmond Louis) 记得 70 年代有关一场阴谋的传闻，当时他还在上小学，当时该市选出了第一位黑人市长。
Yeah, there were community activists who were invited into the school.
是的，有社区活动人士被邀请进入学校。
I remember some of the Black Panthers in New Orleans visiting the school.
我记得新奥尔良的一些黑豹成员参观了这所学校。
And yeah, they talked about how whites definitely wanted the city back, they wanted control.
是的，他们谈到白人是多么希望夺回这座城市，他们想要控制权。
I remember Reverend Avery C.
我记得艾弗里·C牧师。
Alexander, one of the pioneers of the civil rights movement in New Orleans and an activist minister who-- he came to the school.
亚历山大是新奥尔良民权运动的先驱之一，也是一位激进的牧师，他来到了这所学校。
And he said there are some beautiful homes in the neighborhood where the school is, and basically that they want to move young white professionals into this neighborhood and move black people out.
他说学校所在的社区有一些漂亮的房子，基本上他们想把年轻的白人专业人士搬到这个社区，把黑人搬出去。
Marcel Diallo was born in 1972 in the Bay Area and remembers rumors of a white takeover of Oakland.
马塞尔·迪亚洛 (Marcel Diallo) 1972 年出生于湾区，他还记得白人接管奥克兰的传闻。
And some of the things that I was hearing as early as the '80s, back in the crack era, was that-- all the elders in my family would always say, oh, you think they're paving that road for us?
早在 80 年代，也就是在破解时代，我就听到的一些事情是——我家里的所有长辈总是说，哦，你认为他们正在为我们铺路吗？
You think they're fixing that park for us?
你认为他们正在为我们修好那个公园吗？
The white people got their eye on this place.
白人把目光投向了这个地方。
And they're coming back.
他们会回来的。
That was like urban lore.
这就像都市传说。
That was the folklore growing up, that white people one day were going to return and try to kick us out.
这就是成长过程中的民间传说，白人有一天会回来并试图把我们赶出去。
On a bitterly cold Saturday morning in January, about 60 protesters marched to the home of Washington, DC City Council member, Carol Schwartz, who hasn't been helping them slow gentrification in the city.
一月一个严寒的星期六早上，大约 60 名抗议者游行到华盛顿特区市议会议员卡罗尔·施瓦茨 (Carol Schwartz) 的家中，她一直没有帮助他们减缓该市的中产阶级化。
In the crowd I meet Jabari Zakiya who believes-- has always believed, truth be told-- that DC's mayor and elected officials receive their marching orders from congressional and business leaders in the city.
在人群中，我遇到了贾巴里·扎基亚 (Jabari Zakiya)，他相信——说实话，他一直相信——华盛顿特区的市长和民选官员收到了来自该市国会和商界领袖的行军命令。
I almost really believe, literally, that when these city council people get close to being elected-- because DC is basically a democratic town.
从字面上看，我几乎真的相信，当这些市议会成员接近当选时——因为华盛顿特区基本上是一个民主城镇。
If you win the primary, you're going to win, right?
如果你赢得初选，你就会获胜，对吗？
So they see who's going to win the primary.
所以他们会看看谁会赢得初选。
And they get that little call at night, saying look, we want to see you.
他们晚上接到那个小电话，说看，我们想见你。
And they take you to that little room and sit you down, say look, this is the deal.
他们带你到那个小房间，让你坐下，说看，就这么定了。
Over the past decade, cities like DC, Chicago, Oakland and New Orleans have embarked on what is essentially a fire sale.
在过去的十年里，华盛顿、芝加哥、奥克兰和新奥尔良等城市已经开始了本质上的甩卖。
Schools, libraries, public housing, all of which have been auctioned off and converted into condos, lofts, charter schools, sushi bars, and sports stadiums.
学校、图书馆、公共住房，所有这些都被拍卖并改造成公寓、阁楼、特许学校、寿司吧和体育场馆。
Washington, DC's changing demographics have ushered in the first white majority on the city council since Congress approved home rule for Washington more than 30 years ago.
自 30 多年前国会批准华盛顿地方自治以来，华盛顿特区不断变化的人口结构迎来了市议会中首次白人占多数。
But even someone like Jabari, who firmly believes in the plan, doesn't see it as simply a matter of white versus black.
但即使像贾巴里这样坚信该计划的人也不认为这只是白人与黑人之间的问题。
To me, the black members aren't any much different than the white members.
对我来说，黑人成员与白人成员没有太大不同。
In fact, many of the white ones seem to be more progressive than the black ones.
事实上，许多白人似乎比黑人更进步。
I mean look, we've never had a white mayor.
我的意思是，你看，我们从来没有过白人市长。
I think it's the plan of any of those people who want to make money.
我认为这是任何想赚钱的人的计划。
This is [?
这是 [？
Marjorie Rhode, ?] another protester.
马乔里·罗德，？]另一位抗议者。
?] Let us move out the people who are not going to give us profit.
？] 让我们把那些不会给我们带来利润的人搬走。
And that begins to break right along racial lines.
这开始打破种族界限。
So whether the plan is to move black people out, it doesn't matter.
所以计划是否要把黑人迁出并不重要。
That's the net effect.
这就是最终效果。
Marjorie is an art professor at the University of the District of Columbia.
马乔里是哥伦比亚特区大学的艺术教授。
She has taught there for nearly 30 years and can remember when the enrollment was more than 15,000, triple what it is now.
她在那里教书近30年，记得当时入学人数超过15,000人，是现在的三倍。
As the enrollment shrinks, the campus shrinks.
随着招生人数的减少，校园也随之缩小。
?] That is such a mouth-watering piece of land.
？] 那真是一片令人垂涎欲滴的土地。
So it's hard not to believe that behind closed doors, somebody's really looking at that land.
因此，很难不相信有人真的在关起门来观察那片土地。
My somewhat paranoid theory, perhaps, is that they're letting the buildings deteriorate.
也许我有点偏执的理论是，他们正在让建筑物恶化。
And they're not doing much to support its enrollment.
他们并没有采取太多措施来支持其注册。
We're not up to date in terms of a lot of our technology and so forth.
我们在很多技术等方面都不是最新的。
And then they can say, well, see.
然后他们可以说，好吧，看看。
No neglect is benign.
任何忽视都是良性的。
It's always malignant.
总是恶性的。
And one of the buildings they took was where we had the art department, the music and so forth.
他们占领的一栋建筑是我们的艺术部门、音乐部门等等。
Wonderful building, wonderful building.
奇妙的建筑，奇妙的建筑。
They took us out of it supposedly to renovate it.
他们把我们带出去据说是为了翻新它。
It is now lofts, condos.
现在是阁楼、公寓。
OK?
好的？
DC residents point to a group of businessmen called the Federal City Council who have been around since the '50s and who the current mayor says he consults with frequently.
华盛顿特区居民提到了一个名为“联邦市议会”的商人团体，该团体自 20 世纪 50 年代以来就已存在，现任市长称他经常与他们协商。
Similar business groups exist in other cities.
其他城市也存在类似的商业团体。
Which seems benign, if you have a certain frame of mind and sinister if you think there's a plan.
如果你有一定的心态，这看起来是良性的；如果你认为有计划，这似乎是险恶的。
This much is clear.
这一点就很清楚了。
DC is much different from just a decade ago, when blacks were 64% of the population.
华盛顿特区与十年前有很大不同，当时黑人占人口的 64%。
Now they're 57%, a huge drop.
现在他们的比例是 57%，下降幅度很大。
And everyone believes it won't be long before the city is no longer majority black.
每个人都相信，用不了多久，这座城市将不再以黑人为主。
People like Charles Brown, a limo driver here, say they believe it's a plot.
像这里的豪华轿车司机查尔斯·布朗这样的人说，他们相信这是一个阴谋。
And he knows that lots of people would think that's crazy.
他知道很多人会认为这很疯狂。
But at this point he says the evidence lines up very much in his favor.
但他表示，目前的证据非常有利于他。
Just look around.
看看周围吧。
You don't have to believe anything I say.
你不必相信我说的任何话。
Just look around.
看看周围吧。
That's all you have to do.
这就是你所要做的。
Just take a look.
看看吧。
If you're in Harlem, if you're in Chicago, if you're in New Orleans, if you're in Washington, if you're in LA, I don't care where you are.
如果你在哈莱姆区，如果你在芝加哥，如果你在新奥尔良，如果你在华盛顿，如果你在洛杉矶，我不在乎你在哪里。
The plan has worked.
该计划已经奏效。
Jon Jeter.
乔恩·杰特.
He's the author of the forthcoming book Flat Broke in the Free Market , about people whose lives are made worse by globalization.
他是即将出版的《自由市场中的破产》一书的作者，该书讲述了那些生活因全球化而变得更糟的人们。
[MUSIC - "DON'T WORRY ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT" BY TALKING HEADS]
[音乐 - “不要担心政府” by Talking Heads]
Act Three, Almost Human Resources.
第三幕，几乎是人力资源。
Well, all this program we've been talking about how humans manage the lives of other humans.
好吧，我们所有的节目都在讨论人类如何管理他人的生活。
But of course we manage the lives of other species as well.
当然，我们也管理其他物种的生活。
Charles Siebert is a New York Times Magazine writer who is finishing a book right now about a side of this most of us have never heard of, and that when you hear about it, actually sounds like a joke.
查尔斯·西伯特（Charles Siebert）是《纽约时报》杂志的一名作家，他正在完成一本关于我们大多数人从未听说过的一面的书，当你听到它时，实际上听起来就像一个笑话。
He's been writing about retirement homes for chimpanzees.
他一直在写有关黑猩猩养老院的文章。
Yes.
是的。
Chimp retirement homes.
黑猩猩养老院。
He's been to all kinds.
他各种都去过。
We need them because, first of all, there are over 3,000 chimps in the United States.
我们需要它们，首先是因为美国有 3,000 多只黑猩猩。
Now, among those would be pets, entertainers, and former research lab chimpanzees.
现在，其中包括宠物、艺人和前研究实验室的黑猩猩。
We have, actually, a surplus of research lab chimps in the United States.
事实上，美国的研究实验室黑猩猩数量过剩。
And the reason for that is when AIDS was-- the first big outbreak, it was sort of logically assumed that chimps would offer us a possible cure because they share so much of our DNA.
原因是当艾滋病第一次大规模爆发时，人们从逻辑上认为黑猩猩将为我们提供一种可能的治疗方法，因为它们与我们有很多相同的 DNA。
That turned out to be bogus.
结果证明那是假的。
Chimps can't get human AIDS.
黑猩猩不会感染人类艾滋病。
So anyway, we ended up with all these excess breeded chimps that could not be used for AIDS research and for no other research.
所以无论如何，我们最终得到了所有这些过度繁殖的黑猩猩，它们不能用于艾滋病研究，也不能用于其他研究。
And so there was this surplus.
所以就有了盈余。
And the government-- this was near the end of Clinton's administration-- was actually faced with this, I guess, moral, ethical dilemma.
我想，当时的政府——当时克林顿政府已接近尾声——实际上面临着道德、伦理的困境。
What do you do with all these near humans?
你对这些近人做什么？
We can't just euthanize them.
我们不能只是对它们实施安乐死。
And so one of the last acts of the Clinton administration was the Chimp Act.
因此，克林顿政府的最后法案之一就是《黑猩猩法案》。
And they actually came up with the idea to build a government-funded retirement home outside of Shreveport, Louisiana.
他们实际上提出了在路易斯安那州什里夫波特郊外建造一座政府资助的养老院的想法。
I went to this place.
我去了这个地方。
When I first saw it, I thought this is sort of the Jurassic Park of chip retirement.
当我第一次看到它时，我认为这有点像芯片退役的侏罗纪公园。
This is the pinnacle of retirement homes for chimps.
这是黑猩猩养老院的顶峰。
OK, more on that place-- it's called Chimp Haven-- in just a minute.
好的，稍后会详细介绍那个地方——它叫黑猩猩避风港。
Charles Siebert says that it's not just research chimps who are getting this treatment.
查尔斯·西伯特说，接受这种治疗的不仅仅是研究黑猩猩。
At this point, we know so much more than we used to about how similar chimps brains are to ours-- what they feel, and what they know, and how much like us they really are-- that they have become an animal that we usually do not ever euthanize.
在这一点上，我们比以前更加了解黑猩猩的大脑与我们的大脑有多么相似——它们的感受是什么，它们知道什么，以及它们到底有多像我们——以至于它们已经成为我们通常不会安乐死的动物。
Which, when you think about how nearly every other animal of the animal kingdom that we have contact with, we feel utterly free to kill at whim, en masse, is very unusual.
当你想到我们接触过的动物王国中几乎所有其他动物时，我们都感到完全随心所欲地集体捕杀，这是非常不寻常的。
But then, of course, we get into this problem.
但是，当然，我们会遇到这个问题。
If we're not going to kill the chimps after they cease to be useful to us, where should we keep them?
如果在黑猩猩对我们不再有用之后我们不打算杀死它们，那么我们应该把它们关在哪里呢？
Under what conditions?
在什么条件下？
Consider the problem of chimpanzees who work in the entertainment business, who perform in the circus, or appear on TV commercials, or in movies.
考虑一下在娱乐行业工作、在马戏团表演、出现在电视广告或电影中的黑猩猩的问题。
Here is something that most of us do not know about chimp entertainers.
关于黑猩猩艺人，我们大多数人都不了解以下内容。
These chimps have about a 4 to 5 year period of viability as actors.
这些黑猩猩作为演员的生存期大约为 4 到 5 年。
And then they just get too strong, too willful, too out of control.
然后他们就会变得太强大、太任性、太失控。
And is that because 4 or 5 is when they hit adolescence or something?
这是因为四五岁是他们进入青春期的时候吗？
Like, that's when they become adult, and before that they're just little kids, basically?
就像，那是他们成年的时候，在那之前他们基本上只是小孩子？
Precisely.
恰恰。
A chimpanzee, a full grown adult chimpanzee, is five times as strong as a human man.
黑猩猩，成年黑猩猩，其力量是人类的五倍。
And especially male chimps are very, very volatile, and competitive, and aggressive.
尤其是雄性黑猩猩非常非常不稳定、好胜、好斗。
So for that one or two yuks that we get on television, they then spend another 40 to 50 years locked up somewhere because they're no longer usable.
因此，对于我们在电视上看到的一两个讨厌鬼，他们会被关在某个地方另外 40 到 50 年，因为他们不再可用。
So these are chimps, basically, who've been working in the human working world.
所以这些基本上都是黑猩猩，一直在人类的工作世界中工作。
And when they retire, I know there's a discussion about how much we should try to re-chimp them.
当它们退休时，我知道有人在讨论我们应该在多大程度上尝试重新改造它们。
Yes.
是的。
Ira Glass And can you just talk about the range of solutions that people have come up with to that problem?
Ira Glass 您能谈谈人们针对这个问题提出的一系列解决方案吗？
The different ways people think about that, the different ways these different retirement homes are set up.
人们对此的思考方式不同，这些不同的养老院的设立方式也不同。
What's the range of things that you've seen?
你见过的事物范围有哪些？
These are chimps that, the official word used is they've been inculturated.
这些黑猩猩，用官方的说法是它们已经被本地化了。
A lot of them have been eating off of caterers' tables, been only around humans.
他们中的许多人一直在餐饮服务商的餐桌上吃饭，只在人类周围活动。
And they like us.
他们喜欢我们。
They're very social animals and, especially if we're imprinted on them very early, they form very tight bonds.
它们是非常群居的动物，特别是如果我们很早就在它们身上留下了印记，它们就会形成非常紧密的联系。
So the gradations would be-- I guess, the one extreme would be Cheeta's life.
所以等级是——我想，一个极端就是奇塔的生活。
That would seem sort of like the human paradigm, a retirement home in Palm Springs, riding around in golf carts.
这看起来有点像人类的范式，在棕榈泉的养老院里，开着高尔夫球车四处走动。
Yes, who is 75 now, although there is some dispute about whether he is actually that old.
是的，他现在已经 75 岁了，尽管对于他是否真的有那么老还存在一些争议。
He's at a retirement home in Palm Springs.
他现在住在棕榈泉的一家养老院。
He was walking around the house.
他在房子里走来走去。
We sat out back by the swimming pool at a picnic table.
我们坐在游泳池边的野餐桌旁。
He was eating Doritos and drinking diet iced tea.
他正在吃多力多滋，喝减肥冰茶。
He's a diabetic.
他是一名糖尿病患者。
He goes into the living room, sits at the piano, bangs on the keys.
他走进客厅，坐在钢琴前，敲击琴键。
There's a selection of his movies on the living room coffee table.
客厅的咖啡桌上有他精选的电影。
And he has been given to watching his old movies on TV.
他也习惯在电视上看他的老电影。
He recognizes scenes.
他认得场景。
He gets up and he claps.
他站起来鼓掌。
He remembers.
他记得。
He's basically living like the aging Bob Hope.
他基本上过着年迈的鲍勃·霍普的生活。
Exactly.
确切地。
There's the one extreme.
有一个极端。
The humanoid version of chimp retirement.
黑猩猩退休的人形版本。
The opposite extreme would be the Center for Great Apes in Florida, where all the retired ape actors are.
相反的极端是佛罗里达州的类人猿中心，所有退休的类人猿演员都在那里。
Or ape entertainers.
或者猿艺人。
Circus, TV, movies, and some pets.
马戏团、电视、电影和一些宠物。
You have, basically, caged farce.
基本上，这是一场关在笼子里的闹剧。
You have these geodesic dome-like structures-- very tall and elaborate, and spacious-- where the chimps are nearly swinging through the trees.
你有这些测地线圆顶状的结构——非常高、精致、宽敞——黑猩猩几乎在树林里荡来荡去。
The whole ethos of that place, I suppose, would be that they're trying to get them as close back to a state of wild chimpdom as is possible.
我想，那个地方的整体精神就是他们试图让他们尽可能接近野生黑猩猩的状态。
OK, so you have the caged farce like that on the one hand, and the nearly Bob Hope style retirement at the other extreme.
好吧，所以一方面是像那样的笼中闹剧，另一方面是近乎鲍勃·霍普式的退休。
And then there's this third approach to chimp retirement, the approach that they take at the multimillion dollar facility the government built for research chimps, mostly, outside of Shreveport, Louisiana, Chimp Haven.
然后是第三种黑猩猩退休方法，他们在政府为研究黑猩猩建造的耗资数百万美元的设施中采取的方法，大部分位于路易斯安那州什里夫波特的黑猩猩天堂之外。
There chimps live a hybrid sort of retirement, part chimp, part human.
那里的黑猩猩过着一种混合型的退休生活，一半是黑猩猩，一半是人类。
It has bedrooms with swinging cots and patios.
其卧室配有摇摆床和露台。
And they have in their rooms television, VCRs, CDs.
他们的房间里有电视、录像机、CD。
And access through these little walkways to little moated forests.
穿过这些小步道就可以到达有护城河的小森林。
It's the most strange blend of the urban and the wild.
这是城市与野外最奇怪的融合。
And you asked earlier about gradations of repatriation of chimps.
你之前问过黑猩猩遣返的分级问题。
Some of these chimps were born in captivity.
其中一些黑猩猩是在圈养条件下出生的。
Some were taken from the wild.
有些是从野外采集的。
And at Chimp Haven, what they try to do is get the remaining wild ones together with the totally captive born ones, so that the wild ones can teach the captive ones how to be chimps again.
在黑猩猩避难所，他们试图把剩下的野生黑猩猩和完全圈养的黑猩猩聚集在一起，这样野生黑猩猩就能教圈养黑猩猩如何再次成为黑猩猩。
Some of the captive ones don't even know what a tree is.
有些圈养的人甚至不知道什么是树。
Some of the research ones have not even been around ground.
有些研究成果甚至还没有落地。
They've been in cement cells all their lives, getting shots of different diseases.
他们一生都待在水泥牢房里，接受不同疾病的注射。
So they get released and they-- there's this one video I saw of a chimp who had never been on the earth before.
所以他们被释放了，他们——我看到了一段视频，里面有一只以前从未到过地球的黑猩猩。
And he wouldn't get out of his crate.
他不会离开他的板条箱。
He was touching down on the earth as though it were the moon.
他降落在地球上，就像降落在月球上一样。
It was the most bizarre thing to see.
这是最奇怪的事情。
So what kind of success do they end up having, in getting those chimps to do those things, to climb trees and to acclimate to those chimp-like behaviors?
那么，在让这些黑猩猩做这些事情、爬树并适应那些类似黑猩猩的行为方面，他们最终取得了什么样的成功呢？
Tremendous success, actually.
事实上，巨大的成功。
Over time, these chimps do very well.
随着时间的推移，这些黑猩猩表现得很好。
Have these days oddly bifurcated by chimp activities and human activities, and they live out a life of that kind of to and fro, between the two.
如今，黑猩猩的活动和人类的活动奇怪地分成了两部分，它们过着一种在两者之间来来回回的生活。
So going from what sort of thing to what sort of thing?
那么从什么样的事情到什么样的事情呢？
Well they have access to their little pie-shaped five acre wedges of forest.
好吧，他们可以使用五英亩的小饼形楔形森林。
So they're out there swinging in the trees, and socializing with one another, and even doing a little crude form of food gathering.
所以他们在树上荡秋千，互相交往，甚至进行一些简单的食物采集。
They're food gathering, you mean the staff hides food out in the middle of the fake forest?
他们正在收集食物，你是说工作人员把食物藏在假森林的中间？
They try to grow certain things in the forest that's conducive to things chimps would-- you know, fruits and berries, that kind of thing.
他们尝试在森林中种植某些有利于黑猩猩生长的东西——你知道，水果和浆果之类的东西。
But not really enough to sustain them, so they come back in for dinner.
但不足以维持他们的生活，所以他们回来吃晚饭。
And meals, I mean they come for their three squares, which they have been used to getting.
还有吃饭，我的意思是他们是为了他们已经习惯的三个方块而来。
So that, to me, is a two-tiered kind of a day.
所以，对我来说，这一天有两层含义。
Where you're playing chimp in the jungle, but you're coming back for dinner and watching some television.
你在丛林中扮演黑猩猩，但你会回来吃晚饭并看电视。
And these chimps are all inculturated.
这些黑猩猩都是本地化的。
They've been around medical labs.
他们去过医学实验室。
They've been around doctors and researchers in white coats.
他们身边都是穿着白大褂的医生和研究人员。
So guess what their favorite television show is.
那么猜猜他们最喜欢的电视节目是什么。
General Hospital.
综合医院。
So yes, they have access to the woods where they can go be chimps.
所以是的，他们可以进入树林，在那里他们可以成为黑猩猩。
But they like coming back to their room and watching television and being around people.
但他们喜欢回到自己的房间看电视并与人相处。
So they're having this balance.
所以他们正在保持这种平衡。
And at one point, I said, so in a way, what you're saying to me is, it would be just as cruel to now fully excerpt them from human contact, given their history.
我曾经说过，从某种程度上来说，你对我说的是，考虑到它们的历史，现在将它们完全从人类接触中剔除出来同样残酷。
And they said, yeah.
他们说，是的。
They still need access to what they knew as they were reared.
他们仍然需要接触他们在成长过程中所知道的东西。
When you describe it this way, it sounds actually kind of like a nice life.
当你这样描述时，听起来确实是一种美好的生活。
They get to do some chimp things, they get to do some human things.
他们可以做一些黑猩猩的事情，也可以做一些人类的事情。
Is that OK, or do you feel like somehow we've denatured them, or there's something wrong with this?
这样可以吗？或者您是否觉得我们已经使它们变性了，或者这有什么问题？
Well, I've come to feel that it's the best we can do for them, given the circumstances.
嗯，我开始觉得，考虑到目前的情况，这是我们能为他们做的最好的事情了。
But in the best of worlds it should have never happened, that they just shouldn't be kidnapped from their lives for these purposes.
但在最好的世界里，这种事根本不应该发生，他们不应该为了这些目的而被绑架。
And they live longer lives in captivity, but they're wild animals and they have their life.
它们在圈养条件下寿命更长，但它们是野生动物，有自己的生命。
And in the course of doing this book and other articles, I've been in the wild and had a chance to see them in the wild.
在写这本书和其他文章的过程中，我一直在野外，并有机会在野外看到它们。
Yeah, and when you see that, what do you see?
是的，当你看到它时，你看到了什么？
I don't know.
我不知道。
You feel a very deep stirring.
你会感到一种非常深刻的激动。
I was running for hours through the woods and just hearing rampant chimp screams.
我在树林里跑了几个小时，只听到黑猩猩的尖叫声。
Pods moving, they move with unbelievable felicity through the jungle, really fast.
豆荚在移动，它们在丛林中移动得令人难以置信，速度非常快。
So I began to despair of ever catching up to them.
所以我开始对能否追上他们感到绝望。
And then suddenly, my guide put this quiet gesture in front of his mouth and pointed up.
然后突然，我的导游将这个安静的手势放在嘴前并向上指。
And there was a mother and a baby about 50 feet up high in a tree, and the baby is staring down at me.
大约 50 英尺高的树上有一位母亲和一个婴儿，婴儿正低头看着我。
And I don't know.
我不知道。
I just got chills.
我只是感到一阵寒意。
It just took my breath away.
这简直让我屏住呼吸。
And I thought about it a lot afterwards, what that kind of meant.
后来我想了很多，这意味着什么。
It really was very moving.
真的很感动。
Charles Siebert.
查尔斯·西伯特.
The book he's writing about the weeks that moved into a chimp retirement community is called The Wauchula Woods Accord.
他正在写一本关于搬进黑猩猩退休社区的几周的书，书名叫《沃楚拉森林协议》。
Our program was produced today by our senior producer Julie Snyder and myself, with Alex Blumberg Jane Feltes, Jon Jeter, Sarah Koenig, Lisa Pollak, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
今天我们的节目由我们的高级制作人 Julie Snyder 和我本人、Alex Blumberg Jane Feltes、Jon Jeter、Sarah Koenig、Lisa Pollak、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike 共同制作。
Adrianne Mathiowetz runs our website.
阿德琳娜·马修韦茨 (Adrianne Mathiowetz) 负责运营我们的网站。
Our production manager is Seth Lind.
我们的生产经理是 Seth Lind。
Production help today from Emily Youssef and Andy Dixon.
今天，艾米丽·优素福 (Emily Youssef) 和安迪·迪克森 (Andy Dixon) 为制作提供帮助。
Musical help from Jessica Hopper.
杰西卡·霍珀的音乐帮助。
Thanks today to Jeremy Garrett and Justin Cegnar of Five Boroughs Productions.
今天感谢 Five Boroughs Productions 的 Jeremy Garrett 和 Justin Cegnar。
Thanks to George Saunders, and Sean McDonald, and [?
感谢乔治·桑德斯和肖恩·麦克唐纳，以及[？
Anahi Delany, ?] to [?
阿纳希·德拉尼，？] 到 [？
Zane El Amin ?], and Parisa Norouzi, and Professor Eddie Glaude, Jr., to Empower DC, who helped us with our story about the plan.
Zane El Amin ？]、Parisa Norouzi 和 Eddie Glaude, Jr. 教授为 Empower DC 提供帮助，帮助我们讲述了有关该计划的故事。
Their website, empowerdc.org.
他们的网站，empowerdc.org。
Our website, where tickets have just gone on sale for our next live show.
我们的网站，我们下一场现场演出的门票刚刚开始发售。
This is going to be broadcast from a stage in New York to movie theaters all over the country, so you can see it in your town.
该节目将从纽约的舞台向全国各地的电影院播出，这样你就可以在你的城镇看到它。
That is going to happen on April 23.
这将于 4 月 23 日发生。
Tickets just went on sale.
门票刚刚开始发售。
Go to our website, www.thisamericanlife.org to get your tickets.
请访问我们的网站 www.thisamericanlife.org 获取门票。
This American life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台播出。
WBEZ management oversight for our program by our boss, Mr. Torey Malatia, who-- I've never understood this.
我们的老板 Torey Malatia 先生对 WBEZ 项目进行了管理监督，我从来不理解这一点。
He calls me into the office every single episode of the show that we do.
我们演出的每一集他都会叫我到办公室。
And he always begins the same way.
他总是以同样的方式开始。
Ira, this is going to be a difficult conversation.
艾拉，这将是一场艰难的谈话。
I want to let you know that up front.
我想让你提前知道这一点。
I don't know what he's driving at.
我不知道他开车的目的是什么。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。