342: How to Rest in Peace - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #342 | December 11, 2009 342: How to Rest in Peace Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 342 集 | 2009 年 12 月 11 日 342：如何安息 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass OK, this is one of those things that you probably have never heard, and then as soon as somebody tells you, you're like, right, of course.
序言 Ira Glass 好吧，这是你可能从未听说过的事情之一，然后一旦有人告诉你，你就会说，对，当然。
You know how murder figures into so much of American pop culture?
你知道谋杀是如何融入美国流行文化的吗？
On crime shows, and thrillers, and video games and all kinds of stuff.
犯罪节目、惊悚片、视频游戏和各种各样的东西。
Well, if you knew somebody who actually got murdered, it turns out you might not be into that stuff so much.
好吧，如果你认识一个真正被谋杀的人，你可能不会那么热衷于这些事情。
I can't watch Law & Order .
我看不了《法律与秩序》。
Not going to watch Law & Order or play Clue, or go to a murder mystery dinner theater.
不会看《法律与秩序》或玩《线索》，也不会去谋杀之谜晚宴剧场。
Rachel Howard's dad was killed when she was 10.
雷切尔·霍华德 (Rachel Howard) 10 岁时，她的父亲被杀。
And as an adult she's met a lot of people whose family members were killed.
作为一个成年人，她遇到了很多家人被杀的人。
Though she says that some of them love shows like CSI and Murder She Wrote , any kind of murder show, officially, organizations like the group Parents of Murdered Children, take a stand against murder as entertainment.
尽管她说他们中的一些人喜欢《犯罪现场调查》和《她写的谋杀案》这样的节目，但任何类型的谋杀节目，像“被谋杀儿童的父母”这样的组织，官方都反对将谋杀作为娱乐。
You know, at the Parents of Murdered Children Conference, they have certain presentations really down to give you a little punch in the gut.
你知道，在被害儿童家长会议上，他们的某些演讲确实给你带来了一些打击。
And one of them is that they have a whole one on this murder mystery dinners.
其中之一是他们在这场谋杀之谜晚宴上有一整套。
And the way that they always do it is they say, let's just pretend that you were going to have a rape mystery dinner and you were going to show up and the rule of the game was going to be that someone's been raped, and we're all going to find the rapist.
他们总是这样做，他们说，让我们假装你要参加一场强奸神秘晚餐，你要出现，游戏规则是有人被强奸了，我们都会找到强奸犯。
That wouldn't go over.
这样就不会过去了。
Nobody would do it.
没有人会这么做。
Everybody would feel that that was deeply distasteful.
每个人都会觉得这是非常令人厌恶的。
Yeah, and creepy.
是的，而且令人毛骨悚然。
Rachel Howard Yeah, creepy.
雷切尔·霍华德 是的，令人毛骨悚然。
Why would you want to put yourself in that role?
你为什么要把自己置于这个角色？
At these conferences for Parents of Murdered Children she says, everybody has a different way of dealing with their loss.
她说，在这些为被害儿童家长举办的会议上，每个人都有不同的方式来处理他们的损失。
Some meet with psychologists, some with crime investigators, some with psychics.
有些人会见心理学家，有些人会见犯罪调查员，有些人会见通灵者。
But among the families who have a murder that is unsolved, it's common for them to be on a mission to find the killers and get justice.
但对于那些有悬而未决的谋杀案的家庭来说，他们的使命是找到凶手并伸张正义，这是很常见的。
And this is where Rachel is different.
这就是雷切尔与众不同的地方。
A few years ago she wrote a memoir about her family and her dad's murder.
几年前，她写了一本关于她的家人和她父亲被谋杀的回忆录。
The murder was never solved.
谋杀案始终没有侦破。
The book is called The Lost Night , and she was invited to talk about it on a radio show called The Victim's Voice .
这本书叫做《失落的夜晚》，她受邀在一个名为“受害者之声”的广播节目中谈论这本书。
And the woman who hosts this show, her daughter had been killed, and she was one of those parents who had made it her crusade to track down the killer at any cost.
主持这个节目的女士，她的女儿被杀了，她是那些不惜一切代价追捕凶手的父母之一。
And then she was telling me the whole story about her daughter's murder and how it had been for her to never give up hope.
然后她向我讲述了她女儿被谋杀的整个故事，以及她如何永不放弃希望。
And I have to have you on my show because it'll get the word out there.
我必须让你出现在我的节目中，因为这会引起人们的注意。
You never know what's going to come up.
你永远不知道会发生什么。
Who knows something.
谁知道一些事情。
Maybe a reward will come through and I have lots of contacts in the local detectives office.
也许会有奖励，而且我在当地侦探办公室有很多联系人。
And if you want me to talk to someone about your dad's case.
如果你想让我和某人谈谈你父亲的案子。
And so we had this very awkward conversation.
所以我们进行了这次非常尴尬的谈话。
It was quite a long phone call and at every turn I was kind of saying, I'm not really interested in doing that.
这是一个相当长的电话，每次我都在说，我对此并不感兴趣。
I don't really want to do that.
我真的不想那样做。
I talked to the detectives and if something comes up, great.
我和侦探们谈过，如果有什么进展，那就太好了。
I'll be happy to know about it.
我会很高兴知道这件事。
But you know, this isn't really what I'm about.
但你知道，这并不是我的真正目的。
And she just seemed baffled.
她似乎很困惑。
I tried to say that I had reached a point where it didn't really matter to me anymore, looking for who killed him.
我试图告诉自己，我已经到了一个地步，寻找谁杀了他，这对我来说已经不再重要了。
And that what I was doing now, he would rather see me not thinking about it every day and just moving on.
而我现在所做的事情，他宁愿看到我每天不去想它，只是继续前进。
Rachel did have years where she felt she should be trying to figure out who killed her dad.
多年来，雷切尔确实觉得自己应该弄清楚是谁杀了她的父亲。
That if she didn't let it take over her life she was being selfish, it meant she didn't love him enough.
如果她不让它占据她的生活，那就是自私，这意味着她还不够爱他。
And in writing her book she started to work the case.
在写书的过程中，她开始研究这个案例。
She talked to the police, tracked down leads, made freedom of information requests for documents, tried to convince detectives to release the case file to her.
她与警方交谈，追踪线索，提出信息自由索取文件的请求，试图说服侦探向她公布案件档案。
And after poking around like that for a while she asked a crime reporter to look at what she had.
在这样摸索了一段时间后，她请一名犯罪记者看看她有什么。
And he suggested that she give up.
他建议她放弃。
I remember sitting in the living room that day and having that conversation and feeling liberated.
我记得那天坐在客厅里进行谈话并感到自由。
Why liberated?
为什么解放了？
Rachel Howard Because this guy was telling me, look, I've looked at a lot of these cases and it doesn't sound like you have a whole lot here.
雷切尔·霍华德 因为这个人告诉我，看，我看过很多这样的案例，听起来你这里的案例并不多。
And my first reaction was, good.
我的第一反应是，很好。
I don't have to do this anymore.
我不必再这样做了。
That's it.
就是这样。
This guy just told me it's hopeless.
这家伙刚刚告诉我这是没有希望的。
Great.
伟大的。
I'm free.
我有空了。
I've done everything possible.
我已经尽力了。
And do you worry about how heartless that might sound?
你是否担心这听起来有多么无情？
I mean, why does it sound heartless, though?
我的意思是，为什么听起来很无情呢？
Because it has nothing to do with how much I love my father.
因为这与我有多爱我的父亲无关。
You know, why should that sound heartless?
你知道吗，为什么这听起来无情呢？
If you want to talk me about my father, I love him.
如果你想跟我谈谈我的父亲，我爱他。
I'll tell you all kinds of things about him.
我会告诉你关于他的各种事情。
But why should it sound heartless to not have to keep looking for who killed him?
但为什么不必继续寻找杀了他的人，这听起来就很无情呢？
It took her years to get to this point, where she felt so resolved about all this.
她花了很多年才走到这一步，她对这一切感到如此坚定。
In the Atlantic Monthly years ago, a writer named Eric Schlosser wrote, "Americans are fascinated by murder and murderers, but not by the families of people who are killed.
多年前，一位名叫埃里克·施洛瑟（Eric Schlosser）的作家在《大西洋月刊》上写道：“美国人对谋杀和杀人犯着迷，但对被杀者的家人并不着迷。
One might expect that the families of murder victims would be showered with sympathy and support, embraced by their communities.
人们可能会期望谋杀案受害者的家人会得到大量的同情和支持，并受到社区的欢迎。
But in reality, they're far more likely to feel isolated, fearful, and ashamed, overwhelmed by grief and guilt."
但实际上，他们更有可能感到孤立、恐惧和羞愧，被悲伤和内疚所淹没。”
Rachel says that she first read that when she was in college and she felt for the first time that there were other people like her, going through what she went through.
雷切尔说，她第一次读到这本书是在她上大学的时候，她第一次感觉到还有其他人和她一样，正在经历她所经历的事情。
That this wasn't like losing a parent any other way.
这并不像以其他方式失去父母。
You know, everyone loses parents.
你知道，每个人都失去了父母。
You know, someone tells you, oh, my father died five years ago.
你知道，有人告诉你，哦，我父亲五年前去世了。
Oh, I'm so sorry.
哦，我很抱歉。
That must have been very difficult.
那一定是非常困难的。
But you know that that's what we all have to go through so that person will work through it.
但你知道，这是我们所有人都必须经历的事情，这样这个人才能克服它。
It's not that way with murder.
谋杀不是这样的。
There's no guarantee that that person's going to work through it.
无法保证那个人能够解决这个问题。
They could be ruined by it forever.
他们可能会永远被它毁掉。
This brings us to today's radio show, people doing their damnedest not to get ruined forever by a murder in the family.
这让我们看到了今天的广播节目，人们竭尽全力不被家庭谋杀案永远毁掉。
From WBEZ Chicago it's This American Life distributed by Public Radio International.
芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today, How to Rest in Peace.
今天，如何安息。
Our show today in two acts.
我们今天的演出分两幕。
In act one, a son who knows that there's something wrong with him, something he has to fix when it comes to his mother's murder, and his feelings about it.
在第一幕中，一个儿子知道自己出了问题，在母亲被谋杀后他必须解决一些问题，以及他对此的感受。
In act two, a different son immerses himself in the facts of his mother's death, the cold, hard reality of it, starting long before she actually dies.
在第二幕中，另一个儿子在母亲去世很久之前就开始沉浸在母亲去世的事实中，这是一个冰冷、残酷的现实。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act one.
行动一。
Well, we begin with this story in which a man tries to solve his problems using, among other things, videotape.
好吧，我们从这个故事开始，在这个故事中，一个男人试图使用录像带等手段来解决他的问题。
Our reporter for this story is Brett Martin.
我们的报道记者是布雷特·马丁。
One day in March of 2005, a documentary film crew showed up at the house of a woman named Sumter Adolf in Westchester County, New York.
2005 年 3 月的一天，一个纪录片摄制组出现在纽约州威彻斯特县一位名叫萨姆特·阿道夫 (Sumter Adolf) 的妇女家里。
Well, should we-- I don't know.
好吧，我们应该——我不知道。
Should we sit down and talk?
我们应该坐下来谈谈吗？
What's best in this situation?
在这种情况下什么是最好的？
You're the director.
你是导演。
Jason Minter Well, we really wanted to talk to you about sort of your experiences in the house.
Jason Minter 嗯，我们真的很想和你谈谈你在家里的经历。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Mrs. Adolf had lived in the house for 21 years.
阿道夫夫人在这所房子里住了 21 年。
It's an ordinary enough suburban home at the end of a long driveway with grey aluminum siding, patches of woods on either side, and an open field out back.
这是一栋很普通的郊区住宅，位于一条长长的车道尽头，有灰色的铝制壁板，两边都是树林，后面还有一片开阔的田野。
She and her family love the house, but at some point they began noticing strange occurrences.
她和她的家人都很喜欢这所房子，但在某个时候他们开始注意到奇怪的事情。
They'd hear moaning and sighing.
他们会听到呻吟声和叹息声。
Sometimes the dishwasher would start by itself.
有时洗碗机会自行启动。
I wouldn't even say I was cognizant of things until my daughter-- I'm going to say five or six years ago-- woke up screaming in the night.
我什至不会说我意识到了事情，直到我的女儿——我要说五六年前——在夜里尖叫着醒来。
Mommy, Mommy, come, come, come.
妈妈，妈妈，来来来。
There's someone in my room.
我的房间里有人。
There's someone in my room.
我的房间里有人。
Turn on the light, there's somebody in my room.
把灯打开，有人在我房间里。
And she was under the covers terrified.
她在被子下面感到害怕。
I mean I've never--
我是说我从来没有——
And she was 11 or 12?
她当时11岁还是12岁？
Sumter Adolf She must have been.
萨姆特·阿道夫 她一定是。
On the couch, sitting across from Mrs. Adolf in her living room is 35 year old Jason Minter, the director of this documentary.
客厅沙发上，坐在阿道夫夫人对面的是 35 岁的杰森·明特，他是这部纪录片的导演。
Next to Jason is his younger sister, Maggie.
杰森旁边是他的妹妹玛吉。
27 years ago, Jason and Maggie's mother was murdered while visiting the house, along with another mom, the woman who then lived here.
27 年前，杰森和玛吉的母亲在参观这所房子时被谋杀，还有另一位母亲，也就是当时住在这里的女人。
Jason and Maggie, then age six and three, were listening in the next room.
杰森和玛吉，当时分别是六岁和三岁，正在隔壁房间里听着。
I didn't really start to relate it all until we spoke.
直到我们交谈之后我才真正开始将这一切联系起来。
Yeah, I mean.
是的，我是说。
Sumter Adolf But a friend told me to bring a candle from church home.
萨姆特·阿道夫 但是一位朋友告诉我从教堂带一支蜡烛回家。
That a friend of his had had somebody living in their house and they burned a candle and said, go to the light.
他的一个朋友有人住在他们的房子里，他们点了一支蜡烛，说，到灯那里去。
You know, it's OK.
你知道，没关系。
And so, as I do these things, I say, I am a mother and I understand your frustration, your anguish of leaving your kids.
因此，当我做这些事情时，我说，我是一名母亲，我理解你的沮丧，你离开孩子的痛苦。
So it's OK.
所以没关系。
And I would try to reassure whichever mom is here.
我会尽力让在座的妈妈放心。
I know, I feel the same way.
我知道，我也有同样的感觉。
I'm sorry.
对不起。
Eventually, Jason and Maggie venture upstairs to the room where the murders took place.
最终，杰森和玛吉冒险上楼来到谋杀案发生的房间。
I don't remember this half of the house.
我不记得房子的这一半了。
I remember this.
我记得这个。
I remember going up those stairs, of course.
当然，我记得爬上那些楼梯。
The last time they were here, the room was a dark-paneled boys room, but now it's clearly the room of a teen girl.
上次他们来这里时，房间是一间镶有深色镶板的男孩房间，但现在显然是一个十几岁女孩的房间。
A border of lavender flowers runs around the walls, there's a horse figurine, and a boom box.
墙壁周围有一圈薰衣草花，还有一个马雕像和一个音箱。
And next to the door hangs an enormous collection of prize ribbons.
门旁边挂着大量的奖品丝带。
The room is filled with sunlight.
房间里充满了阳光。
I remember them coming to the door and the next thing I remember is sitting up on the bed.
我记得他们来到门口，接下来我记得的是坐在床上。
You remember that?
你还记得吗？
Maggie And I remember them putting the gun to your head.
玛吉 我记得他们用枪指着你的头。
Yes, I remember that as well.
是的，我也记得。
You remember the running from the house and so on?
你还记得从房子里跑出来之类的事吗？
I remember following you to the bedroom.
我记得跟着你去了卧室。
And you remember-- yeah.
你还记得——是的。
You still have those memories?
你还有那些记忆吗？
Is this too difficult?
这也太难了吧？
The weird thing in this scene is that while it's Maggie who starts to cry, it's Jason who you can't take your eyes off of.
这个场景中奇怪的事情是，虽然玛吉开始哭泣，但你无法将目光从杰森身上移开。
He's stiff and awkward, unsure of how to stand or where to look.
他僵硬而尴尬，不知道如何站立或看向哪里。
If he's not breaking down, it doesn't seem to be because he's bearing up manfully under the strain.
如果他没有崩溃，那似乎并不是因为他在压力下勇敢地承受了。
It's that he seems altogether distant feeling nothing, but clearly trying to.
他似乎完全没有感觉，但显然在努力。
Does the house trigger things, being in the house or no?
无论是否在房子里，房子都会触发一些事情吗？
It's all a little weird.
一切都有点奇怪。
Jason Minter We've never talked about it before, ever, even amongst ourselves.
Jason Minter：我们以前从未谈论过这个问题，甚至在我们自己之间也是如此。
That's a whole nother-- because we grew up really not discussing this at all.
那完全是另一回事——因为我们在成长过程中根本没有讨论过这个问题。
You know, we didn't discuss with my family because our family just wanted to get over it.
你知道，我们没有和我的家人讨论，因为我们的家人只是想克服它。
I've always thought that if I could understand everything and see everything with my own eyes again, and so on, and see how things really are and look at everything that I would feel much better.
我一直以为，如果我能重新理解一切，用自己的眼睛看一切，等等，看看事情的真相，看看一切，我的感觉会好很多。
I'd feel like, you know what?
我会觉得，你知道吗？
I've confronted it.
我已经面对过它。
I can put it behind me now.
我现在可以把它抛在身后了。
Is that where you're coming from too, or no?
你也是从那里来的吗？
Well, I don't know that I feel like I need to confront it as much as you do.
好吧，我不知道我是否觉得我需要像你一样面对它。
I had no idea whether I would break down when I walked into that bedroom or I'd feel nothing, and I didn't feel a lot.
我不知道当我走进那间卧室时我是否会崩溃，或者我什么感觉都没有，而且我没有太多感觉。
That's for sure.
这是肯定的。
It's two years after the footage of Maggie and Jason's trip to the house was shot and we're in the apartment Jason shares with his wife in Inwood, at the very top of Manhattan.
玛吉和杰森回家的镜头拍摄完成已有两年了，我们现在身处杰森与妻子在曼哈顿顶层因伍德合住的公寓里。
It seems like my sister has a much better handle on how to sort of deal with this than I do, or she seems to be dealing with it in a more-- what's the word?
看来我姐姐比我更懂得如何处理这个问题，或者她似乎以一种更……怎么说呢？
In a more natural way, I guess, than I have dealt with it.
我想，这是一种比我处理过的更自然的方式。
I think that's a better--
我认为这样更好——
What does that mean?
这意味着什么？
Jason Minter My sister seemed to in a way, cry on cue.
杰森·明特 我的妹妹似乎在某种程度上哭了。
I mean she seemed to react where she presumably should react when she did.
我的意思是，她似乎做出了她应该做出的反应。
She broke down and I did not.
她崩溃了，而我没有。
Did you ever cry?
你有哭过吗？
Jason Minter Over my mother's death, or just in general?
贾森·明特 是因为我母亲的死，还是只是一般情况？
No, I don't I ever have.
不，我从来没有。
I can't recall ever.
我不记得曾经有过。
No.
不。
This has bothered Jason for almost 30 years, that he never had the emotions he should have had.
这困扰了杰森近30年，他从未拥有过他应该拥有的情感。
That he never really mourned his mother's death.
他从未真正哀悼母亲的去世。
That's why he revisited the house and why he's filming the documentary.
这就是他重新参观这座房子以及拍摄这部纪录片的原因。
Making the film has become a quest in which he's resolved to revisit and catalog every aspect of the day she died.
制作这部电影已成为他的一项任务，他决心重新审视并记录她去世那天的方方面面。
Surely something, some detail, or person, or location, when looked at head on, even relived, will trigger the feelings he craves.
当然，当某件事、某个细节、某个人或某个地点，当他正面观察，甚至重温时，都会引发他所渴望的感觉。
The logic of this approach becomes clear when you realize that, for many years, he revisited nothing about the murder.
当你意识到多年来他没有重新审视这起谋杀案时，这种方法的逻辑就变得清晰起来。
All he knew was what he remembered from that day.
他所知道的只是那天的记忆。
And let's start there.
让我们从这里开始。
A warning: this gets kind of violent.
警告：这会变得有点暴力。
Back in 1977, the Minters were friends with another family in the neighborhood with kids the same age, a boy who was six and a girl who was three.
早在 1977 年，明特夫妇就和附近的另一个家庭是朋友，他们有同龄的孩子，一个六岁的男孩和一个三岁的女孩。
On that afternoon, March 2, Jason had the boy over to play while Maggie went to the neighbors.
3 月 2 日那天下午，杰森让男孩过来玩，而玛吉则去邻居家。
It was getting late, time for the friend to go home, and for Jason's mom to pick up Maggie.
天色已晚，朋友该回家了，杰森的妈妈也该去接玛吉了。
So we got in the car and we drove up to the house and there was a blue van sitting in the driveway.
于是我们上了车，开到了房子前，车道上停着一辆蓝色货车。
I think I remember my mother asking the boy if there was an electrician or plumber maybe at the house.
我想我记得我母亲问男孩家里是否有电工或水管工。
It looked like sort of a utility vehicle.
它看起来像是一辆多功能车。
My mother and the boy walked into the house and I sat in the car alone until a guy came outside and I just remember a guy wearing like a ski cap and started letting the air out of the tires while I was sitting in the car and I thought, well, is he-- maybe this van is related to some sort of auto mechanic or something and he's doing something to the car.
我的母亲和男孩走进房子，我独自坐在车里，直到一个人走了出来，我只记得一个人戴着像滑雪帽一样的衣服，当我坐在车里时，他开始放气，我想，好吧，他是——也许这辆货车与某种汽车修理工或其他东西有关，他正在对汽车做点什么。
And then he snatched my mother's purse out of the front seat and said, hey, kid, your mother wants you.
然后他从前座抢走了我母亲的钱包并说，嘿，孩子，你妈妈想要你。
And I followed him up into the house.
我跟着他进了房子。
We walked in and the house looked like a hurricane had hit the inside of it.
我们走进去，房子看起来就像飓风袭击了它的内部。
It was completely destroyed.
它被彻底摧毁了。
The guy took me up the stairs and into a room where my mother and the other woman were sitting on a bed.
那家伙带我上了楼梯，走进一个房间，我母亲和另一个女人坐在床上。
My sister was sitting on a bed with her friend and my friend was also sitting there as well.
我姐姐和她的朋友坐在床上，我的朋友也坐在那里。
The little girls were crying and the boy was trying to calm them down.
小女孩们在哭泣，男孩试图让她们平静下来。
I remember one of the guys calling my mother or the other woman a bitch.
我记得其中一个人骂我的母亲或另一个女人是婊子。
I was silent for a while and then I couldn't hold it in any longer.
我沉默了一会儿，然后就再也忍不住了。
I just became more and more alarmed.
我只是变得越来越惊慌。
I started to talk.
我开始说话。
What's going on?
这是怎么回事？
What is this?
这是什么？
Who are you?
你是谁？
And one of the guys took a, I guess it was a 22 caliber pistol and cocked the trigger and pressed the gun against my nose and said, "Shut the [BLEEP] up." And then I was quiet.
其中一个家伙拿起一把，我猜那是一把 22 口径的手枪，扣动扳机，把枪抵在我的鼻子上，然后说：“闭嘴（闭嘴）。”然后我就安静了。
And then I remember the men looking in, brushing a shower curtain aside with a pistol, like looking into the tub.
然后我记得那些男人朝里看，用手枪把浴帘拨到一边，就像往浴缸里看一样。
And they went through an adjoining bathroom into another bedroom with the women.
他们和女人们一起穿过毗邻的浴室进入另一间卧室。
They closed the door and the next thing I knew-- I thought I heard only four shots.
他们关上了门，接下来我只听到了四声枪响。
Of course, now I realize I was 14 or something.
当然，现在我意识到我已经14岁了。
But we heard these shots and then we heard the van screech away and then knew that these guys were gone.
但我们听到了这些枪声，然后我们听到货车尖叫着离开，然后我们知道这些人已经走了。
Went into the room and saw-- I went in first.
走进房间，看到——我先进去了。
I told everyone to stay there and saw the two women who were both-- well, my mother was lying face down.
我让大家都呆在那里，看到了两个女人——嗯，我母亲脸朝下躺着。
I guess the other one was on her side.
我猜另一个人是站在她这一边的。
And there was blood I recall, but not a lot.
我记得有血，但不多。
It was clear to me that they had been shot in the head, or at least my mother had.
我很清楚他们的头部中弹了，或者至少我母亲是这样。
But it wasn't clear that she was dead.
但目前还不清楚她是否已经死了。
I remember the other boy coming in, lifting his mother's arm up, and it just dropping.
我记得另一个男孩进来了，举起他母亲的手臂，但它却落了下来。
And that's when I ran from the house.
就在那时我逃离了房子。
Jason ran through the woods to the closest neighbor's house.
杰森穿过树林跑到最近的邻居家。
At first, the family there didn't believe him.
起初，家里人并不相信他。
Then the other kids came running up behind and the police were called.
然后其他孩子跑到后面，警察被叫来了。
Two days later, three men would be arrested in what would turn out to be a burglary gone terribly wrong.
两天后，三名男子被捕，这起盗窃案后来证明是一起严重错误的盗窃案。
The night of the murders, Jason and his father slept together in a room at the neighbor's while police cars came and went next door.
谋杀案发生当晚，杰森和父亲一起睡在邻居家的一个房间里，警车在隔壁来来往往。
In the night, he listened while his father wept.
晚上，他听着父亲的哭泣。
Nobody ever actually told Jason that his mother was dead.
没有人真正告诉杰森他母亲已经死了。
In fact, when he'd asked the cop at the scene of the crime if she was OK, the cop said, sure.
事实上，当他在犯罪现场询问警察她是否还好时，警察说，当然。
Jason wasn't taken to the burial.
杰森没有被带到葬礼上。
Finally, he got the idea that she would never be coming back.
终于，他意识到她再也不会回来了。
And that's pretty much where his information stopped for the next dozen years.
在接下来的十几年里，他的信息几乎就止于此。
I should say at the outset that in the years following the murder, Jason was sent to the parade of therapists you'd expect.
我首先要说的是，在谋杀案发生后的几年里，杰森被派去接受你所期望的治疗师队伍。
His father seems to have tried to do everything he could do, given the fact that he was going through a devastating trauma of his own.
考虑到他自己正在经历毁灭性的创伤，他的父亲似乎已经尽力了。
But none of it gave Jason what he was looking for, a way to grieve his mother's death.
但这一切都没有给杰森带来他所寻找的东西，一种哀悼母亲去世的方式。
So when he was 19, he took a train to White Plains where the killers had been tried.
因此，当他 19 岁时，他乘火车前往怀特普莱恩斯，凶手在那里受到审判。
At the courthouse he'd photocopied the police reports and then he sat and devoured them on the way back to Grand Central.
在法院，他复印了警方的报告，然后在返回中央车站的路上，他坐下来，如饥似渴地阅读着这些报告。
For the first time, he learned the names of his mother's killers.
他第一次知道了杀害他母亲的凶手的名字。
He learned that only two of the men had participated in the murders, while the third man, James Walls, who Jason had seen letting the air out of his mother's tires, had waited in the van, not knowing what was going on.
他了解到，只有两名男子参与了谋杀案，而第三名男子詹姆斯·沃尔斯（杰森看到他让他母亲的轮胎漏气）就在货车里等着，不知道发生了什么事。
He also learned more disturbing details.
他还了解到更多令人不安的细节。
Both his mother and the other woman had been raped before being killed.
他的母亲和另一名女子在被杀之前都被强奸了。
His mother had been shot three times.
他的母亲中了三枪。
The first was to the head and likely killed her instantly.
第一个击中了头部，很可能立即杀死了她。
The other woman, not as lucky, had been shot some 11 times.
另一名妇女则没有那么幸运，她中了大约 11 枪。
While all of this was horrifying for Jason, it was also, oddly satisfying.
虽然这一切让杰森感到恐惧，但同时也令人感到奇怪的满足。
For the first time, he felt like he was getting a grasp on the murder.
他第一次感觉自己似乎掌握了这起谋杀案。
And this is where the idea of the documentary came to him.
这就是他制作这部纪录片的想法的来源。
Under the pretense of shooting the film, he could accomplish what time hadn't and what therapy hadn't.
在拍摄电影的幌子下，他可以完成时间无法做到的事情以及治疗无法做到的事情。
He would continue to work his way through the case bit by bit, like a brass rubbing, until finally the picture was complete and he could move on.
他会继续一点一点地研究这个案子，就像拓印黄铜一样，直到最后图片完成，他可以继续前进。
All right.
好的。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't see any semblance of any-- well, here's a number.
我没有看到任何类似的东西——好吧，这是一个数字。
We went to a district attorney's office, which one I'm not allowed to say.
我们去了地方检察官办公室，但我不被允许透露这一点。
I wasn't supposed to do this at all, but they were sort of cutting me a break.
我根本不应该这样做，但他们有点让我休息。
But anyway, I went to a district attorney's office and looked through, I think there were six or nine banker's boxes full of evidence.
但无论如何，我去了地方检察官办公室并查看了一下，我认为有六九个装满证据的银行家箱子。
Everything from the police reports to crime scene photos, to autopsy photos, and so on.
从警方报告到犯罪现场照片，再到尸检照片等等。
And methodically, I went through them one by one.
我有条不紊地把它们一一浏览了一遍。
Oh, this is Shirley Abraham's testimony.
噢，这是雪莉·亚伯拉罕的见证。
Very interesting.
非常有趣。
In the boxes were many letters.
盒子里有很多信。
Letters from one of the murderers, Willie Profit, nicknamed "Scrap," to his girlfriend at the time.
凶手之一威利·普罗菲特（绰号“废料”）写给当时女友的信。
And there was a letter from James Walls, the guy who had stayed in the van to the same woman, whose name was Shirley.
还有一封来自詹姆斯·沃尔斯（James Walls）的信，他一直住在货车里，写给同一个女人，她的名字叫雪莉（Shirley）。
In its, Walls pleads with Shirley to corroborate his story that he didn't commit any of the violence that day.
在信中，沃尔斯恳求雪莉证实他的说法，即他那天没有实施任何暴力行为。
He also narrates the murders from his perspective.
他还从自己的角度讲述了谋杀案。
Another warning: here it gets more graphic.
另一个警告：这里变得更加图形化。
A few seconds, I heard a woman's voice say, it must be the furniture people or something.
几秒钟，我听到一个女人的声音说，一定是家具人什么的。
I heard Scraps say, hold it, bitch.
我听到碎片说，坚持住，婊子。
And I saw another little boy in the lady's car.
我看到那位女士的车里还有另一个小男孩。
I then told the boy his mother wanted him.
然后我告诉男孩他的母亲想要他。
He got out of the car and went inside.
他下了车，走进去。
I then went and picked the lady's pocketbook off the front seat and put it in the van.
然后我去把那位女士的钱包从前排座位上捡起来，放进了货车里。
I waited in the van about 10 minutes, then got out.
我在车里等了大约10分钟，然后下了车。
I walked in the front of van thinking that Scrap and Sammy were tying the two ladies up.
我走在货车前面，以为废料和萨米正在把这两位女士绑起来。
I'm still in front of the van and that's when I hear the shots.
我还在货车前面，就在那时我听到了枪声。
Then I was about to jump in the van and drive away.
然后我正准备跳上面包车开走。
As I was about to do so, Scrap and Sammy came running out of the house, hopped in the van, Scrap said to me he's going to drive, so he did.
当我正要这么做时，斯克拉普和萨米跑出房子，跳上面包车，斯克拉普对我说他要开车，所以他就这么做了。
He was laughing and acting like a madman, and so was Sammy.
他笑着，表现得像个疯子，萨米也是如此。
I asked them, did you guys really shoot those ladies?
我问他们，你们真的射杀了那些女士吗？
And they both said, yes.
他们都说，是的。
I said to them, why?
我对他们说，为什么？
I think Scraps said, because the lady saw their faces.
我认为斯克拉普斯这么说是因为那位女士看到了他们的脸。
And then Sammy said to me, D, I don't know that little black had a long black [BLEEP].
然后 Sammy 对我说，D，我不知道小黑有一个长长的黑色 [BLEEP]。
And then Scraps said, boy, I [BLEEP] out of that bitch, D.
然后 Scraps 说，天哪，我从那个婊子 D 那里发出了[哔哔声]。
And I said, what?
我说，什么？
And Sammy said, yeah, D.
萨米说，是的，D。
He [BLEEP] out of her.
他从她体内[发出哔哔声]出来。
And then Sammy says, he [BLEEP] the fat bitch.
然后萨米说，他[哔]了那个胖母狗。
And then I said to myself, these guys are made man-- madmen.
然后我对自己说，这些人都是人——疯子。
And Shirley, keep in mind that these are the facts and the truth, and the only words of truth.
雪莉，请记住，这些都是事实和真相，也是唯一真实的话语。
Because remember, I was at the scene of the crime.
因为请记住，我当时就在犯罪现场。
Be cool and keep your head up, D.D.
保持冷静并抬起头，D.D.
Walls.
墙壁。
That's quite a letter.
这真是一封信。
I feel like I should have a round of applause or something for reading that.
我觉得读到这篇文章我应该得到热烈的掌声或其他什么。
Jason continues going through boxes, avoiding the folder of crime scene photos until his friend who's behind the camera prods him along.
杰森继续翻阅箱子，避开犯罪现场照片文件夹，直到他在镜头后面的朋友催促他继续前进。
Look at the pictures.
看看图片。
Jason Minter You, what are you, Oprah?
杰森·明特 你，你是谁，奥普拉？
Going to make me look at something.
想让我看一些东西。
I mean, look, I'm getting to horrible stuff now.
我的意思是，听着，我现在遇到了可怕的事情。
Photo exhibits.
照片展览。
Oh, Jesus.
哦，耶稣。
Well, I guess we had to get to it sometime.
好吧，我想我们必须找个时间来解决这个问题。
This, I believe, is my mother and this is what I saw that day.
我相信这是我的母亲，这就是我那天所看到的。
And I think I mentioned that I thought she was still alive.
我想我提到过我认为她还活着。
I mean, as you can see the wounds are from a small caliber gun.
我的意思是，正如你所看到的，伤口是由小口径枪造成的。
To a kid that didn't look like a really big deal.
对于一个看起来没什么大不了的孩子来说。
I don't find it all that disturbing.
我觉得这一切并不那么令人不安。
No, I really don't.
不，我真的不知道。
I mean, first of all I'm not seeing my mother's face in these pictures.
我的意思是，首先我在这些照片中没有看到我母亲的脸。
She's lying face down.
她脸朝下躺着。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I'm not getting that-- Jesus, what is this?
我不明白——天哪，这是什么？
What the hell is this stuff now?
现在这东西到底是什么？
They turn the bodies over?
他们把尸体翻过来？
So how did Jason get here?
那么杰森是怎么来到这里的呢？
How did he stay numb for so long that he needs to stare at pictures of his mother's corpse to try to provoke a reaction?
他怎么麻木了这么久，需要盯着母亲尸体的照片才能引起反应？
Not only was his mother's death never discussed while he was growing up, neither was her life.
在他的成长过程中，不仅从未讨论过他母亲的死，也从未讨论过她的生活。
Soon after the murders, Jason's father remarried, to a woman who, for motives that seem to be a mix of well intentioned and kind of crazy, set about erasing all the physical evidence that Jason's mother had ever existed.
谋杀案发生后不久，杰森的父亲与一名女子再婚，这名女子的动机似乎是善意的，但又有点疯狂，开始抹去杰森母亲曾经存在过的所有物证。
Jason doesn't even know how many letters and photos and other personal items his new stepmother threw out.
杰森甚至不知道他的新继母扔掉了多少信件、照片和其他个人物品。
But he knows that all the gifts his mother had given him disappeared.
但他知道，母亲送给他的所有礼物都消失了。
His father divorced his second wife and married a third.
他的父亲与第二任妻子离婚并娶了第三任妻子。
Jason developed a severe case of separation anxiety.
杰森患有严重的分离焦虑症。
The fear that he was going to lose his father too.
他担心自己也会失去父亲。
He also decided that it was up to him to see that nothing like the crime ever happened again.
他还决定，他有责任确保类似的犯罪行为不再发生。
Like sort of security obsession where I built locks for doors and windows in our house, and drilled holes in things, and built weapons, and did all sorts of things to protect the home, protect the family.
就像对安全的痴迷一样，我在家里给门窗装锁，在东西上钻孔，制造武器，做各种各样的事情来保护家，保护家人。
I built weapons and I hid them all over the property and all over the house.
我制造了武器，并将它们藏在整个财产和整个房子里。
I had all sorts of things.
我有各种各样的东西。
I had bats with nails sticking out of them, to makeshift morning stars, to swords, to spears, to clubs.
我有钉子伸出的蝙蝠、临时的晨星、剑、矛、棍棒。
I had an arsenal of BB gun and pellet guns.
我有很多 BB 枪和弹丸枪。
And these were spread out around your house?
这些东西都散布在你家周围吗？
Well, yes.
嗯，是的。
Yes, they were.
是的，他们是。
When I got a little older I set up a really primitive closed circuit TV in my room.
当我长大一点后，我在房间里安装了一台非常原始的闭路电视。
I had a card table and an old black and white television sitting on it.
我有一张牌桌和一台旧的黑白电视机。
Then I had probably one of the first affordable consumer video cameras to ever come out, it was sitting in the hallway just pointing at the stairs.
然后我可能拥有了有史以来第一批价格实惠的消费级摄像机之一，它就坐在走廊上，指向楼梯。
And I would just sit there staring at the stairs with a bunch of BB guns on the table.
我就坐在那儿盯着楼梯，桌上放着一堆 BB 枪。
I would spend hours staring at it, waiting for somebody to just come-- basically-- make my day.
我会花几个小时盯着它，等待有人来——基本上——让我开心。
At one point, I was building-- I had seen Ben or Willard on television and I thought that I could raise rats and train them to sort of protect me and the family, and sort of do my bidding.
有一次，我正在建造——我在电视上看到了本或威拉德，我想我可以饲养老鼠并训练它们来保护我和家人，并执行我的命令。
So I had this plan to go to the pet store and buy some rats.
所以我有了这个计划：去宠物店买一些老鼠。
And I started building a pen down in one of the old stables and my father caught me hauling a big door down.
我开始在一个旧马厩里建造一个围栏，我父亲发现我拉开了一扇大门。
He said, what are you doing?
他说，你在做什么？
And I said, I'm going to set up a pen to raise rats.
我说，我要设立一个围栏来养老鼠。
And he just looked at me and said, no you're not.
他只是看着我说，不，你不是。
I mean, I'm curious that you say-- it sounds like your sense of your dad's response to all this was that he was annoyed by it.
我的意思是，我很好奇你说——听起来你觉得你父亲对这一切的反应是他对此感到恼火。
He was annoyed by it.
他对此很恼火。
And you know, I don't remember the specific incident.
你知道，我不记得具体事件了。
I mean, I think I was putting maybe a new lock on the basement door or something and drilling holes.
我的意思是，我想我可能在地下室门上加了一把新锁或其他东西，然后钻孔。
And he came home from work and caught me doing this.
他下班回家发现我这样做。
I said, well, how can you not be afraid?
我说，那你怎么能不害怕呢？
How can you not be nervous?
怎么能不紧张呢？
And he said, because lightning doesn't strike the same place twice.
他说，因为闪电不会两次击中同一个地方。
And that annoyed me because I just didn't buy that at all.
这让我很恼火，因为我根本不买那个。
For all the confusion and trauma of his youth, Jason did manage to graduate from high school, go to film school, get married, and basically take care of himself.
尽管杰森年轻时经历了种种困惑和创伤，但他还是设法高中毕业，上电影学校，结婚，基本上可以照顾自己。
In fact, it's impossible to tell Jason's story without at least mentioning what he does for a living.
事实上，如果不提及杰森的谋生方式，就不可能讲述他的故事。
For the past nine years or so, he's worked for the TV show The Sopranos .
在过去的九年左右的时间里，他一直在为电视节目《黑道家族》工作。
First as a location manager, essentially driving through suburban neighborhoods looking for houses where he could stage murders.
首先作为一名外景经理，主要是开车穿过郊区寻找可以上演谋杀案的房子。
And then as an associate producer and assistant to the show's creator, David Chase.
然后担任该剧主创大卫·蔡斯的副制片人和助理。
I'm not the first person to have drawn a connection between his childhood experiences and the fact that he wound up spending almost a decade helping to recreate graphic, often random and senseless violence on screen.
我不是第一个将他的童年经历与他花了近十年时间帮助在银幕上再现生动的、通常是随机的和毫无意义的暴力这一事实联系起来的人。
I'm also not the first person to have Jason shut me down.
我也不是第一个让杰森关闭我的人。
Jason says it has nothing to do with his childhood.
杰森说这与他的童年无关。
He didn't create the series.
他没有创作这个系列。
He didn't write the series.
这个系列不是他写的。
Sometimes a good job is just a good job.
有时候，一份好工作就是一份好工作。
So on and off for years, Jason was doing one of the few things you can do to get over a trauma.
多年来，杰森断断续续地做着为数不多的可以克服创伤的事情之一。
He returned to the details of what happened.
他又回到了所发生事情的细节。
He immersed himself in them, filming all sorts of people and locations.
他沉浸在其中，拍摄各种人物和地点。
And when it failed to deliver the emotional catharsis he was looking for, he became gripped by a different goal.
当它无法提供他所寻求的情感宣泄时，他开始被另一个目标所吸引。
He doesn't just want to revisit his mother's murder, he also wants to re-solve it.
他不仅想重温母亲的谋杀案，还想重新解决这个问题。
Never mind that the police solved it years ago and that the three men involved were all serving sentences of 25 years to life.
尽管警方多年前就解决了这个问题，而且三名涉案男子都在服刑 25 年至无期徒刑。
Jason's totally serious about this and spent probably a third of our interview on the subject.
杰森对此非常认真，并且我们采访的时间大概有三分之一都在讨论这个问题。
For a long time, he's had the suspicion that maybe the murders weren't entirely random.
很长一段时间以来，他一直怀疑谋杀案可能并不完全是随机的。
That the killers didn't just happen upon that house by accident, but were sent there to kill a particular person.
凶手并非偶然来到那所房子，而是被派去那里杀害某个特定的人。
He even has a theory about who and why, a theory I can't actually repeat on the radio because it's probably libelous.
他甚至有一个关于谁和为什么的理论，这个理论我实际上不能在广播中重复，因为它可能是诽谤性的。
He talks about interviewing up to 30 more people.
他谈到还要采访多达 30 人。
From assistant DAs to distant relatives of the killers, almost all of them to help make his case.
从助理检察官到凶手的远房亲戚，几乎所有人都来帮助他破案。
And when the Department of Corrections agreed to set up a meeting in the medium security wing of Attica with James Walls, the guy who had stayed in the van, Jason had visions of finding some kind of new clue to support his theory.
当惩教署同意在阿提卡的中级安全部门与留在货车里的詹姆斯·沃尔斯会面时，杰森梦想找到某种新线索来支持他的理论。
Would you be Mr. Walls?
你愿意成为沃尔斯先生吗？
Mr. Walls, I'm Jason Minter.
沃尔斯先生，我是杰森·明特。
How are you?
你好吗？
I'm fine.
我很好。
Jason Minter Last time you saw me I had hair.
杰森·明特 上次你见到我时我有头发。
So did you for that matter.
在这件事上你也是如此。
Yes I did.
是的，我做到了。
Brett Martin For the record, yes, the last time they saw each other was the day of the murders.
布雷特·马丁 郑重声明，是的，他们最后一次见面是在谋杀案发生的那天。
This joke should give you a sense of the tenor of the conversation, which is held in an empty prison cafeteria.
这个笑话应该能让你了解谈话的基调，这是在空荡荡的监狱自助餐厅里进行的。
Jason's all business.
杰森的一切都是公事。
Walls is a middle-aged black man with a neat moustache and oversized round wire glasses.
沃尔斯是一位中年黑人，留着整齐的小胡子，戴着超大的圆钢丝眼镜。
He slides back and forth between expressing regret for his involvement in the crime and self pity over the unfortunate coincidence-- almost 30 years ago-- of running into the murderers as they were on their way to what they said would be a simple breaking and entering.
他时而对自己参与犯罪表示遗憾，时而对不幸的巧合（大约 30 年前）感到自怜，当时凶手正在前往他们所说的简单破门而入的路上。
Meanwhile, Jason has his gumshoe hat on and hammers away at the point he's most interested in.
与此同时，杰森戴着刑警帽，敲击着他最感兴趣的地方。
Did the other two men know where they were going, or did they choose a random home?
另外两个人是否知道他们要去哪里，或者他们只是随意选择了一个家？
What did they say?
他们说什么？
Do you remember specifically?
你还记得具体吗？
Did they say they were going on a B&E, or was it something else?
他们是说要参加 B&E 还是别的什么？
Did somebody tell them about--
有人告诉过他们——
No, they was conversing about a breaking and entering, but they didn't know where they was going as far as what I understood.
不，他们正在谈论破门而入，但据我所知，他们不知道他们要去哪里。
So there's no chance of them knowing, there was no chance of them targeting any of these houses, do you think?
所以他们不可能知道，他们不可能以这些房屋为目标，你认为吗？
They couldn't have known about this, any of these houses?
他们不可能知道这些，这些房子吗？
I don't think so.
我不这么认为。
Jason Minter You don't think so?
杰森·明特 你不这么认为吗？
No. Because the way they was acting inside the van when they were-- they was talking more or less like pick and choose.
不。因为他们当时在货车里的行为方式——他们的谈话或多或少像是在挑选。
So you really don't think they knew where they were going?
所以你真的认为他们不知道自己要去哪里？
No. Because like I was saying.
不，因为就像我说的。
after they made an approach to one house and the woman came to the door and the dog was barking, they sort of like backed up.
当他们接近一所房子时，那个女人来到门口，狗在吠叫，他们有点想后退。
Because when they saw the big dog, like I said, they sort of backed up and jumped right back into the van and took off.
因为当他们看到那只大狗时，就像我说的，他们向后退了一步，然后跳回货车并起飞。
And they was talking [BLEEP] about, yeah, man, you see that big ass [BLEEP] dog, man.
他们正在谈论[BLEEP]，是的，伙计，你看到那只大屁股[BLEEP]狗，伙计。
I ain't [BLEEP] going in.
我不会[哔]进去。
It was one of those things where, let's go over here.
这是其中之一，让我们到这里来。
None of this could have come as a surprise to Jason because everyone tells him his theory is almost certainly false.
这一切对杰森来说都不奇怪，因为每个人都告诉他，他的理论几乎肯定是错误的。
Including the cops who investigated the case who Jason interviewed.
包括杰森采访的调查该案的警察。
When pressed, even Jason admits there's not much evidence to back him up.
当被追问时，甚至杰森也承认没有太多证据支持他。
Still, it's easy to understand the allure of the idea that the crimes weren't just a random incident.
尽管如此，我们还是很容易理解犯罪并非偶然事件这一想法的吸引力。
Imagine going through life not just knowing, but really knowing that your life can implode in the worst possible way at any moment.
想象一下，在生活中，不仅知道，而且真正知道你的生活随时可能以最糟糕的方式崩溃。
Imagine internalizing the notion that every little decision, like driving over to the neighbor's house to drop off a friend, could put you in the path of disaster.
想象一下，如果你内心深处有这样一个想法：每一个小决定，比如开车去邻居家送朋友，都可能让你陷入灾难。
If that sense of a random universe were gone, it might allow Jason to stand down his defenses.
如果那种随机宇宙的感觉消失了，杰森可能会放下防御。
And not just metaphorically.
而且不仅仅是比喻意义上的。
Jason's apartment features a level of security that's excessive even by New York standards.
杰森的公寓的安全级别即使按照纽约的标准来看也是过高的。
Three dead bolts and a heavy burglar bar are on the door.
门上有三个锁舌和一根沉重的防盗杆。
Jason says he'd own a gun if New York state didn't make it such a pain to get a license.
杰森说，如果纽约州没有让获得执照变得如此痛苦，他就会拥有一把枪。
Instead, scattered about are a collection of swords, including a samurai number that Jason keeps by the bed.
相反，周围散落着一些剑，其中包括杰森放在床边的一把武士刀。
There's also a sai, then an ax that Jason insists are antiques rather than weapons, but look like they'd probably do in a pinch.
还有一把 sai，然后是一把斧头，杰森坚称这是古董而不是武器，但看起来他们可能会在紧要关头使用。
Nothing Jason has done has gotten him any closer to getting rid of those weapons, let alone moving past his mother's death.
杰森所做的一切都没有让他更接近摆脱这些武器，更不用说摆脱他母亲的死了。
And lately, he's slowed down his investigation of the murder night.
最近，他放慢了对谋杀之夜的调查。
He has permission from the prison system to go see the two killers themselves, but he hasn't been able to bring himself to pay a visit.
监狱系统允许他亲自去见两名凶手，但他却没能亲自去探望。
Are you at all afraid that you're going to some day know everything and not feel any better?
你是否害怕有一天你知道了一切，但感觉却没有任何好转？
Yeah, certainly.
是的，当然。
I wouldn't be any worse off than I am now for that matter.
就这一点而言，我的处境不会比现在更糟。
I mean I'm certainly a functional adult.
我的意思是我当然是一个有功能的成年人。
Well, a functional immature adult.
好吧，一个功能不成熟的成年人。
You seem quite functional.
你看起来很机能。
I mean, as far as I can tell.
我的意思是，据我所知。
As far as certainly on the scale of external problems you could have.
就你可能遇到的外部问题的规模而言。
You are married.
你结婚了。
You've held a job for a long time.
你已经从事一份工作很长时间了。
You're starting a business.
你正在创业。
You have a nice house, two cats.
你有一个漂亮的房子，两只猫。
You are capable of social interaction.
你有能力进行社交互动。
I mean, these are all things-- so what is your problem?
我的意思是，这些都是问题——那么你的问题是什么？
Well, are you asking what I hope to accomplish by--
好吧，你是在问我希望通过以下方式实现什么目标——
Well what is missing?
那么缺少什么？
What is the drive?
驱动是什么？
Is this for you or is it for your mother?
这是给你的还是给你妈妈的？
My hope is that I'm able to stop or to cease to obsess over that day.
我希望我能够停止或不再沉迷于那一天。
I hope to not think about the murder 26 times a day.
我希望不要一天26次思考谋杀案。
Maybe once a day or once every two days.
也许一天一次或每两天一次。
To stop sort of obsessing about it.
停止对它的痴迷。
And here, three hours into our interview, an interview that began with him declaring that if he just knew everything about the murder night he could move on, we get to this--
在这里，我们的采访进行了三个小时，采访开始时他宣称，如果他知道谋杀之夜的一切，他就可以继续前进，我们得到了这一点——
You know, I looked at crime scene photos, I went back into that room.
你知道，我看了犯罪现场的照片，然后又回到了那个房间。
I talked to one of the guys and where did it get me?
我和其中一个人聊过，这对我有什么启发？
I just feel like I haven't accomplished the task yet.
我只是觉得我还没有完成任务。
Has it occurred to you that maybe it's not that you haven't done enough, but that the exercise is flawed?
你有没有想过，也许不是你做得不够，而是练习有问题？
That has occurred to me.
我已经想到了这一点。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Now I feel like I wonder whether I should just, really just intensely try to focus on my mother and forget-- not forget about the crime, obviously.
现在我觉得我想知道我是否应该只是，真的只是强烈地尝试专注于我的母亲并忘记 - 显然不是忘记犯罪。
But try to stay away from that as much as possible, mentally and to just not make the rest of the film.
但请尽量在精神上远离这一点，并且不要制作电影的其余部分。
About a year ago, Jason found a box of old cookbooks that belonged to his mother in his father's garage.
大约一年前，杰森在父亲的车库里发现了一盒属于他母亲的旧食谱。
Somehow they'd been overlooked by his first stepmother when she was purging the house of Bonnie Minter's things.
不知何故，当他的第一个继母清理家里邦妮·明特的东西时，她忽略了它们。
You know, yeah, I found old recipes that were stuffed into these pages that weren't looked at that she stuffed in there 30 years ago.
你知道，是的，我发现这些页面里塞满了她三十年前塞进去的旧食谱，而这些食谱并没有被人看过。
That's when it occurred to me that you've never really thought of your mother as a real person.
那时我突然意识到，你从来没有真正把你的母亲视为一个真实的人。
She's just been this event or this horrible thing that happened to you.
她只是发生在你身上的这件事或这件可怕的事情。
Not that she was a horrible thing, but she was a victim of this horrible thing that, in some ways, has defined my whole life.
并不是说她是一件可怕的事情，而是她是这件可怕事情的受害者，这件事在某种程度上定义了我的一生。
Yeah, that wall is OK.
是的，那面墙还可以。
Most of it's going to come down.
大部分都会下降。
It's just a big garage here.
这里只是一个大车库。
But you can see the potential.
但你可以看到潜力。
When The Sopranos ended, Jason decided to get out of television and open a restaurant.
《黑道家族》结束后，杰森决定退出电视界，开一家餐馆。
He leased a corner storefront not far from his apartment and negotiated a good deal to buy the tables, chairs, and service ware of Vesuvius, the Soprano's fictional Italian joint.
他在离公寓不远的街角租了一个店面，并通过谈判达成了一笔好交易，购买了维苏威火山（女高音虚构的意大利联合店）的桌子、椅子和服务用具。
One clear memory Jason has of his mother is of her in the kitchen.
杰森对他母亲的清晰记忆之一就是她在厨房里的情景。
He remembers long strands of fresh pasta slung between chairs throughout the house.
他记得整个房子的椅子之间都挂着长长的新鲜意大利面。
And finding the cookbooks made him think that cooking could be a way to connect with her memory.
找到烹饪书让他认为烹饪可能是与她的记忆联系起来的一种方式。
There will be a big, wine, beer bar over here.
这里将会有一个大型的葡萄酒、啤酒吧。
Sort of an open kitchen.
有点像开放式厨房。
Right now the space is raw and empty, but it's a beautiful spot looking out on a green stretch of trees and park.
现在这个空间是原始的、空荡荡的，但它是一个美丽的地方，可以俯瞰一片绿色的树木和公园。
Jason and his wife have put a huge Halloween display in one window for the neighborhood kids.
杰森和他的妻子在一个窗户上为邻居的孩子们展示了一个巨大的万圣节展示品。
It would be glib to say that the restaurant is the opposite of the documentary.
如果说这家餐厅与纪录片相反，那就太油腔滑调了。
That one looks back and the other forward.
一个向后看，另一个向前看。
One focuses on what's lost, the other on building something new.
一个关注的是失去的东西，另一个关注的是建立新的东西。
That one's about death and the other life.
那是关于死亡和另一种生命。
It's just too simple to be true.
这太简单了，不可能是真的。
But standing there in the space, listening to Jason describe his vision for a homey neighborhood hangout, seeing people stop by to ask when he'll finally open, it does seem a little true.
但站在这个空间里，听杰森描述他对一个温馨的社区聚会场所的愿景，看到人们停下来询问他何时最终开业，这似乎确实有点真实。
As he's locking up, a boy and his father come walking out of the park.
当他锁门时，一个男孩和他的父亲走出公园。
The kid runs up to the door, tries to push his way in.
孩子跑到门口，试图挤进去。
Not quite yet, Jason says hopefully.
还没有，杰森满怀希望地说。
Soon.
很快。
Brett Martin, he's a correspondent for GQ magazine.
布雷特·马丁（Brett Martin），《GQ》杂志的记者。
In the two years since we first broadcast this story, Jason has opened his restaurant, Indian Road Cafe.
自从我们第一次播出这个故事以来的两年里，杰森开设了他的餐厅——印度路咖啡馆。
It's thriving.
它正在蓬勃发展。
His mom's murderer agreed to be interviewed for Jason's movie, but with the restaurant so busy, the film's on hold for now.
杀害他母亲的凶手同意接受杰森电影的采访，但由于餐厅太忙，电影暂时搁置。
[MUSIC- "IT'S ALL RIGHT TO CRY" BY MOUFETTE]
[音乐 - MOUFETTE 的《哭也没关系》]
Coming up, your mom calls you up and says, I want to rehearse my own suicide.
快到了，你妈妈打电话给你说，我想排练我自己的自杀。
And you're a good kid, you want your mom to be happy, and you get in your car and you go help her.
你是一个好孩子，你希望你的妈妈快乐，你就开车去帮助她。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International when our program continues.
一分钟后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life , I'm Ira Glass.
这就是美国生活，我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose a theme and bring you a variety of different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，我们的节目每周都会选择一个主题，并为您带来有关该主题的各种不同类型的故事。
Today's show, "How to Rest in Peace."
今天的节目是“如何安息”。
Well, so far today, we've heard from people who have had a really hard time getting over the violent death of a parent.
好吧，今天到目前为止，我们听到了一些人的来信，他们很难从父母的暴力死亡中恢复过来。
Now in act two, we turn to somebody who's actually kind of at peace with his mother's death, which when you hear how she died, is kind of amazing.
现在在第二幕中，我们转向一个对母亲的死实际上感到平静的人，当你听到她的死因时，这有点令人惊奇。
Her plan was to take the whole bottle of pills sitting in her bed with a plastic bag ready and a scarf ready to wrap around her neck to seal the bag.
她的计划是把整瓶药放在床上，准备好塑料袋，并准备一条围巾，围在脖子上以密封袋子。
And that she would take the pills, put the plastic bag on, put the scarf around, and lie down.
她会服下药片，套上塑料袋，围上围巾，然后躺下。
And that's what she did.
她就是这么做的。
We'll call this guy Edward.
我们称这个人为爱德华。
And when his mother killed herself at 79, she wasn't depressed, she wasn't sick with some terrible illness.
当他的母亲79岁自杀时，她并没有感到沮丧，也没有患上什么可怕的疾病。
No, she was lively, funny, social, able to take care of herself.
不，她活泼、有趣、善于交际、能够照顾自己。
But she planned for her own death for decades ever since she saw what happened to her mom when her mom got old.
但自从她看到母亲变老后发生的事情以来，她为自己的死亡计划了几十年。
Her mother suffered from dementia, became confused and incoherent.
她的母亲患有痴呆症，变得神志不清、语无伦次。
Edward's mom had a hard time even visiting her mom during those years.
那些年里，爱德华的妈妈甚至很难去看望她的妈妈。
Also, she hated doctors.
而且，她讨厌医生。
Hated them.
讨厌他们。
Hated hospitals too.
也讨厌医院。
It was a strong, gut feeling on her part that this was terrible.
她有一种强烈的直觉，觉得这太糟糕了。
She couldn't stand the thought of seeing people in hospitals with tubes coming out of them.
她无法忍受看到医院里的人们身上插着管子。
And she was determined never to be in that environment if she could possibly help it.
她下定决心，如果可能的话，永远不再处于那种环境中。
And she and my father-- but really at her initiation-- promised each other that they would help each other.
她和我父亲——但实际上是在她发起的时候——彼此承诺他们会互相帮助。
That they would not let each other suffer in old age.
他们不会让彼此在晚年受苦。
And they bought the book, Final Exit , by Derek Humphrey, which talked about this.
他们买了德里克·汉弗莱（Derek Humphrey）写的《最终退出》（Final Exit）一书，书中谈到了这一点。
They were counting on each other.
他们互相指望。
And at some point she gets you involved in this, right?
在某些时候她会让你参与其中，对吗？
She got me most involved when my father died.
我父亲去世后，她让我参与得最多。
What she asked me to do was to basically, to play the part that my father would have done for her.
她要求我做的基本上就是扮演我父亲为她所做的角色。
But he was dead.
但他已经死了。
And I felt it was an obligation to do this for her.
我觉得为她做这件事是我的义务。
Did she say it so flatly as, I want you to do what your father would have done?
她是否这么直白地说，我希望你做你父亲会做的事情？
I forget how she phrased it.
我忘了她是怎么说的。
She was really asking me not to interfere, not to oppose, to support her in this.
她其实是要求我不要干涉，不要反对，支持她。
She didn't want me to help her.
她不想让我帮她。
She was very concerned about something happening to me.
她非常担心我发生的事情。
She didn't want me to be in trouble.
她不想让我有麻烦。
She didn't even want me to be embarrassed.
她甚至不想让我感到尴尬。
She said, the ambulance is going to come and the police will come and the neighbors will see.
她说，救护车会来，警察会来，邻居会看到。
It'll be bad for your reputation.
这会对你的名誉不利。
How can I do this?
我该怎么做？
So I was in the rather odd position of having to reassure her that she could do this without embarrassing me.
所以我处于一个相当奇怪的境地，不得不向她保证她可以做到这一点而不会让我难堪。
So I was in this double situation of not wanting to encourage her, but also wanting to comfort her so that she doesn't feel anxious about the consequences for me or anybody else.
所以我处于双重境地，既不想鼓励她，又想安慰她，这样她就不会为我或其他人的后果感到焦虑。
But that's the thing that I was wondering, is it seems like you're in a very delicate position because you don't want to be encouraging her, I assume, to kill herself.
但这就是我想知道的事情，你似乎处于一个非常微妙的境地，因为你不想鼓励她，我想，自杀。
That's correct.
这是正确的。
I didn't want to encourage her, but I didn't want to refuse to discuss it with her, to help her emotionally go through the process of talking about it and dealing with the preparation for it.
我不想鼓励她，但我不想拒绝和她讨论，帮助她在情感上经历讨论和准备的过程。
It's interesting.
这很有趣。
I think a lot of people are so uncomfortable talking about death with someone else.
我认为很多人都不愿意与别人谈论死亡。
Was it hard for you?
对你来说很难吗？
It wasn't that hard, and I got used to it.
这并不难，而且我已经习惯了。
I had a lot of preparation.
我做了很多准备。
This was nothing new.
这并不是什么新鲜事。
And she was very focused on this end for well over 20 years.
二十多年来，她一直非常专注于这个目标。
It was just an established fact.
这只是既定的事实。
This is what she wanted.
这就是她想要的。
This is the way I could love her.
这就是我爱她的方式。
This is what she really asked me for.
这才是她真正要求我的。
She didn't ask me for anything.
她没有向我要任何东西。
This is what she asked me for.
这就是她向我提出的要求。
She used to say that she did not want to live to be very old.
她曾经说过，她不想活得很老。
She said 80.
她说80。
That's far enough.
那已经够远了。
Why do I have to live past 80?
为什么我一定要活过80岁？
She would go into this stuff.
她会深入研究这些东西。
Why live past 80?
为什么能活过80岁？
Edward Right.
爱德华 对。
I don't want to get so old.
我不想变得这么老。
Why do people want to live so long?
为什么人们想要活得那么长寿？
What's the point?
有什么意义？
Did she have the experience of observing herself getting more forgetful and feeling more confused and she knew that she was experiencing dementia, the early stages of it, and she remembered her mom?
她是否有过这样的经历：观察到自己变得越来越健忘，感到越来越困惑，并且她知道自己正在经历痴呆症的早期阶段，并且她记得她的妈妈？
I observed for the last 10 years, a slow deterioration.
我观察到过去十年来，情况正在缓慢恶化。
She had been always a big cook and taking cooking lessons, and Chinese, and all sorts of things.
她一直是个大厨，上烹饪课、中文课，还有各种各样的课程。
And at the very end, about a month before she died, she had asked my wife to come down and she said she couldn't make a cup of coffee.
最后，大约在她去世前一个月，她让我妻子下来，她说她无法煮一杯咖啡。
She just couldn't make a decent cup of coffee.
她只是无法煮出一杯像样的咖啡。
She was really frustrated she had to go out for coffee.
她真的很沮丧，她不得不出去喝咖啡。
And so she asked my wife to come down and show her what was going wrong.
所以她让我妻子下来告诉她出了什么问题。
And my wife spent about an hour trying to explain the process of using a French press, which is what she was using.
我的妻子花了大约一个小时试图解释使用法压壶的过程，这就是她正在使用的。
Which is about as simple a way to make coffee as you can have.
这是一种最简单的煮咖啡方法。
Right.
正确的。
You take the grounds, you put it in, you pour the water on top.
你拿起咖啡粉，把它放进去，然后把水倒在上面。
You wait, and then you push the thing down.
你等待，然后把东西推下去。
Exactly.
确切地。
It was a real struggle for her to get that.
对她来说，要得到这个确实是一场斗争。
And I think that's the kind of thing that she did all the time.
我认为这就是她一直在做的事情。
These kinds of things could all of a sudden become an incredible burden to her.
这些事情可能会突然成为她难以承受的负担。
Now one of the things I wanted to ask you about that I know you went through is that your mom would rehearse.
现在我想问你的一件事我知道你经历过，那就是你妈妈会排练。
Like she would run through scenarios and drag you into this?
就像她会遍历场景并将你拖入其中？
Well, she did a test.
嗯，她做了一个测试。
She knew that she had to get some sleeping pills.
她知道她必须吃些安眠药。
So she basically went to two different doctors and lied and said that she couldn't sleep and needed it.
所以她基本上去找了两个不同的医生，撒谎说她睡不着，需要睡觉。
She took a couple of these and I was there.
她拿了几张，我也在场。
She wanted to see what would happen.
她想看看会发生什么。
And she took two of these and she was out in a matter of a couple of a couple of minutes.
她拿了其中的两个，几分钟后她就出去了。
She started rehearsing because she was afraid that she wouldn't be able to do it.
她开始排练，因为她担心自己做不到。
Or she wouldn't remember to do it.
不然她就不会记得这么做。
Or she wouldn't remember what to do.
不然她不记得该做什么。
So she would ask me to come down and watch her while she did this.
所以她会要求我在她做这件事的时候下来看着她。
And so what was it like?
那么它是什么样的呢？
Edward It was weird.
爱德华 这很奇怪。
It was definitely weird.
这绝对很奇怪。
And so, wait.
所以，等等。
So you'd be at home and she'd call you up and she'd say, like, can you come on over tonight, I want to rehearse the thing.
所以你在家里，她会给你打电话，她会说，你今晚能过来吗，我想排练一下。
I want to practice.
我想练习。
Ira Glass Really?
艾拉·格拉斯 真的吗？
That's it?
就是这样？
Exactly.
确切地。
There would be some joking about it and that kind of stuff.
会有一些关于它的笑话之类的。
And she was not somber.
而且她并不忧郁。
She wasn't depressed.
她并不沮丧。
And so you would like order in some Chinese and go over to your mom's house.
所以你想点一些中文然后去你妈妈家。
Maybe she invited me for dinner.
也许她邀请我共进晚餐。
She would make the dinner and she would invite me for dinner, and then she would do the practice.
她会做晚饭并邀请我共进晚餐，然后她会进行练习。
And she also wrote out a note to be prepared.
她还写了一张纸条以备不时之需。
She wanted to be prepared, so she wrote out a note explaining what she was doing in a more lucid moment when she could do that.
她想做好准备，所以她写了一张便条，解释她在做什么时可以更清晰地做到这一点。
And she got her things that she wanted to use.
她得到了她想要使用的东西。
You know, the scarf, and the bag, and the note, and she actually put together the books, like the Final Exit book and I think she had some other books.
你知道，围巾、袋子和便条，她实际上把这些书放在一起，比如《最终出口》书，我想她还有其他一些书。
She placed it all out, so that anybody coming, and the police, I had to call the police.
她把一切都放了出来，所以任何人过来，还有警察，我都得报警。
And when they came, this was all laid out.
当他们来的时候，这一切都已经安排好了。
It's interesting.
这很有趣。
It isn't just her rehearsing herself, it's almost like she was rehearsing you too, so you could go through your feelings when it would finally happen.
这不仅仅是她在排练自己，几乎就像她也在为你排练，这样你就可以在事情最终发生时体会到自己的感受。
I think so.
我想是的。
Ira Glass Now legally, could she call you and say OK, I'm doing it today and have you know?
Ira Glass：现在合法了，她可以打电话给你说好吧，我今天就这么做，你知道吗？
Everybody knew.
每个人都知道。
The family came.
家人来了。
She did this at the end of August and over the summer her sister and brothers came, my cousins came, and friends came to pay a visit.
她在八月底这样做了，整个夏天她的姐姐和兄弟都来了，我的表兄弟姐妹也来了，朋友们也来拜访。
And I was calling people and explaining that she's planning to do this and it's not going to be that long, and maybe you would like to come and visit her.
我打电话给人们并解释说她正计划这样做，而且不会持续那么久，也许你想来看望她。
And people did come.
人们确实来了。
With her brother, who was the last one, she played a total game with him.
她和最后一个哥哥一起玩了一场完整的游戏。
He was opposed to her doing it.
他反对她这样做。
He thought she was depressed.
他以为她很沮丧。
And he thought that she just needed to get out.
他认为她只需要出去。
So he wanted to invite her down to New York City.
所以他想邀请她来纽约。
They'd go into the city and do things that she used to like to do.
他们会进城做她以前喜欢做的事情。
And go to the museums and go out and so he was trying to encourage her to do that thinking that she must be depressed.
去博物馆，出去，所以他试图鼓励她这样做，认为她一定很沮丧。
And she said, sure.
她说，当然。
And they made plans for her to go down to the city the next week.
他们计划让她下周进城。
And when he left she called me and said she's going to do it now.
当他离开时，她打电话给我说她现在就去做。
She said that if I don't do it now, I will not be able to do it.
她说如果我现在不做，我就做不到。
Did she do it right after the brother was there because she realized that she was weakening?
她是在哥哥到来后才这样做的，因为她意识到自己正在衰弱吗？
That she could weaken?
她可以削弱吗？
She could just--
她可以——
I don't think so.
我不这么认为。
I think she played a total game with him.
我认为她和他玩得很彻底。
She would not want to hurt his feelings while he was there.
当他在那里的时候，她不想伤害他的感情。
She would just play along.
她只是陪着玩而已。
He's telling her these things and she would say, oh, sure.
他告诉她这些事情，她会说，哦，当然。
That sounds lovely.
听起来很可爱。
But she would know inside of herself, this isn't at all what she wants.
但她内心知道，这根本不是她想要的。
And I think that she knew that she was really losing her ability to organize her thoughts enough to be able to carry this out.
我认为她知道她真的失去了足够的组织思想的能力来实现这一点。
And so then you have to hang up the phone, and then you're sitting in your house and you know that she's in her house and she's doing this thing right then?
然后你必须挂断电话，然后你坐在你的房子里，你知道她在她的房子里，她正在做这件事？
No, I went down.
不，我下去了。
She asked me to come down.
她请我下来。
Oh, she did?
哦，她做到了？
Edward Yeah.
爱德华 是啊。
So I went down.
于是我就下去了。
And we talked about it.
我们讨论了它。
And she was determined to do it.
并且她决心这么做。
And she got all her stuff ready and we said goodbye, and I left.
她准备好了所有的东西，我们道了再见，然后我就离开了。
And it was very odd, me leaving knowing what she's doing.
这很奇怪，我离开时知道她在做什么。
Where'd you go?
你去哪儿了？
Edward I just drove around.
爱德华 我只是开车到处转转。
I went shopping.
我去购物了。
I went to the supermarket.
我去了超市。
I didn't know what to do.
我不知道该怎么办。
I mean I didn't sit there wringing my hands.
我的意思是我并没有坐在那里绞着手。
It was somewhat surreal, the experience.
这种经历有点超现实。
It just seems so sad that she has to be alone at that moment.
那一刻她不得不独自一人，这似乎很悲伤。
It was terrible.
太可怕了。
Ira Glass It seems like that's the moment where of all moments she would want somebody with her to hold her hand and comfort her.
艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 似乎在所有时刻中，她都希望有人陪着她握住她的手并安慰她。
Right.
正确的。
That was probably the worst part of it, that she had to do it alone.
这可能是最糟糕的部分，她必须独自完成这件事。
Me and her other family members could not be there because we live in a society that does not respect people's desire to control the end of their life.
我和她的其他家人无法出席，因为我们生活在一个不尊重人们控制自己生命终结的愿望的社会。
So you go back into the house.
所以你回到屋里。
Was there a part of you where you thought, well, maybe she didn't do it?
你心里有没有想过，好吧，也许她没有这么做？
My fear was that she didn't die.
我担心的是她没有死。
That I would go in and should be still alive.
我会进去并且应该还活着。
She had taken this overdose of medication and somehow she was still alive and what was I going to do then?
她服用了过量的药物，但不知何故她还活着，那么我该怎么办？
I mean the worst thing, the last thing she would want me to do is to call an ambulance and take her to the emergency room.
我的意思是最糟糕的事情，她最不想让我做的事情就是叫救护车并带她去急诊室。
I mean, that would be the last thing she would want.
我的意思是，这将是她最不想要的事情。
She did me a great favor by being successful.
她的成功帮了我一个大忙。
It just seems so terrible.
看起来太可怕了。
You walk in and it seems so-- the fact that she's there with a bag over her head.
你走进去，看起来确实如此——事实上，她头上顶着一个袋子。
Yes.
是的。
It was odd.
这很奇怪。
And it was an image that stays with me.
这个形象一直萦绕在我心头。
I honestly didn't sit in the room for a long time.
说实话，我已经很久没有在房间里坐了。
It wasn't something that I wanted to have imprinted on me any more than it had to be.
我不想把它烙印在我身上，因为它是必须的。
And it was very emotional, obviously, to see her dead.
显然，看到她死了，我非常激动。
And I sat down and I cried at that moment as I am now.
我坐下来，那一刻我哭了，就像现在一样。
Then I had to walk down to the police and tell them that she had done it and they came.
然后我不得不走到警察那里，告诉他们是她干的，然后他们就来了。
And they took it seriously.
他们认真对待它。
I told them the whole story.
我把整个故事告诉了他们。
I told them that the relatives had all come and talked about it.
我告诉他们，亲戚都来了，说这件事。
Everybody knew what was going on.
每个人都知道发生了什么事。
And they took evidence.
他们拿走了证据。
They took the glass that she had used.
他们拿走了她用过的玻璃杯。
And they took her note and got fingerprints and all that kind of stuff.
他们记下了她的笔记并采集了指纹和诸如此类的东西。
But she had handled everything.
但她已经处理好了一切。
She had done it all.
她已经完成了这一切。
Do you have a sense that your mother tamed death?
你有没有感觉到你的母亲驯服了死亡？
That she made it less frightening for herself by going into the details and thinking it through to this degree?
她通过深入细节并思考到这种程度，让自己不那么害怕了吗？
I think she did.
我想她做到了。
I think that would be accurate.
我认为这是准确的。
I think that she had the normal fear of death.
我认为她对死亡有正常的恐惧。
Fear of unknown, fear of also losing life.
害怕未知，也害怕失去生命。
And I think by talking about it is the way that she convinced herself.
我认为通过谈论这是她说服自己的方式。
I've got to say it seems very rare for somebody to get to that point and to come to grips with death in such a thoughtful way.
我不得不说，似乎很少有人能够达到这一点并以如此深思熟虑的方式来应对死亡。
I think it is.
我认为是的。
You don't hear about it frequently.
你不会经常听说它。
People who are involved in assisted suicide are usually people who have objectively certifiable problems.
参与协助自杀的人通常是有客观可证实的问题的人。
What's interesting talking to you about it is how at peace you are with it.
与你谈论它的有趣之处在于你对它的平静程度。
How there's no ambiguity that it was the right thing.
毫无疑问，这是正确的事情。
I think I'm expressing the determination that she had.
我想我正在表达她的决心。
She was her own unique person.
她是她自己独特的人。
This is what she wanted.
这就是她想要的。
This is the way she thought about life.
这就是她对人生的思考。
My son had children just a few years after she died and she would have very much like to have seen that.
我儿子在她死后几年就生了孩子，她非常希望看到这一点。
But that year, I think within six months of her death, her sister was killed in an automobile accident, and I think that she would have been devastated by that.
但那一年，我想在她去世后的六个月内，她的妹妹在一场车祸中丧生，我想她会因此而崩溃。
So who can say what she should have done or not done?
那么谁能说她该做什么、不该做什么呢？
Well, our program was produced today by Sarah Koenig and myself with Alex Blumberg, Jane Feltes, John Jeter, Lisa Pollak, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp and Nancy Updike.
好吧，我们今天的节目是由 Sarah Koenig 和我本人以及 Alex Blumberg、Jane Feltes、John Jeter、Lisa Pollak、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike 制作的。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Production help from Bruce Wallace and Aaron Scott.
布鲁斯·华莱士和亚伦·斯科特为制作提供帮助。
Seth Lind's our production manager.
塞思·林德是我们的生产经理。
Emily Condon's our office manager.
艾米丽·康登是我们的办公室经理。
Adrianne Mathiowetz runs our website.
阿德琳娜·马修韦茨 (Adrianne Mathiowetz) 负责运营我们的网站。
Music help from Jessica Hopper.
杰西卡·霍珀的音乐帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
[致谢]《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
WBEZ management oversight for our program by our boss, Mr. Torey Malatia, who's come up with a new scheme to solve his personnel problems.
我们的老板 Torey Malatia 先生对 WBEZ 项目进行了管理监督，他提出了一个新计划来解决他的人事问题。
All the employees that he's unhappy with, all of us who don't do what he wants, he's lining up some replacements.
所有他不满意的员工，我们所有不做他想做的事情的员工，他都在安排一些替代者。
And I thought that I could raise rats and train them to sort of do my bidding.
我想我可以饲养老鼠并训练它们听从我的命令。
I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of this American life.
我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多关于美国生活的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。