341: How to Talk to Kids - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #341 | October 5, 2007 341: How to Talk to Kids Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 341 集 | 2007 年 10 月 5 日 341：如何与孩子交谈 注意：《This American Life》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life, distributed by Public Radio International.
序言 Ira Glass 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥，这就是美国生活，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I have a relative that's my aunt.
我有一个亲戚，她是我的阿姨。
She doesn't really know how to talk to kids.
她真的不知道如何与孩子们交谈。
She's sort of--
她有点——
My grandma.
我的奶奶。
She doesn't know what to say to me.
她不知道该对我说什么。
She's trying to talk to me, but usually she doesn't know what to say.
她试图和我说话，但通常她不知道该说什么。
The people on my dad's side, they don't know how to talk to kids.
我父亲那边的人，他们不知道如何和孩子们交谈。
They go, oh, you're so cute.
他们说，哦，你真可爱。
They have got to say like, oh, he's so cute--
他们必须说，哦，他太可爱了——
Oh, you're so cute.
哦，你真可爱。
Boy 1 --like you were born yesterday.
男孩1——就像你昨天出生一样。
Not me only, but a lot of other kids don't like to be talked down to like they're three years old.
不仅是我，很多其他孩子都不喜欢像三岁孩子一样被人贬低。
Sometimes when they speak to children, their voice changes into this kind of voice where they're talking to two year olds.
有时，当他们与孩子说话时，他们的声音会变成与两岁孩子说话的声音。
It's like they're talking to you with baby talk.
就像他们在用儿语跟你说话一样。
Yeah.
是的。
They still think I'm a five year old.
他们仍然认为我是一个五岁的孩子。
Fellow adults, if you have ever had the experience of hanging around with a kid and not knowing what to say, and you told yourself, well, whatever, they're just a child.
各位成年人，如果你曾经有过这样的经历：和一个孩子在一起，不知道该说什么，然后你告诉自己，好吧，无论如何，他们只是个孩子。
They're so different from us.
他们与我们是如此不同。
They won't really notice.
他们不会真正注意到。
Turns out?
结果呢？
Wrong.
错误的。
She says, how's school?
她说，学校怎么样？
What's going on?
这是怎么回事？
She tries to understand--
她试图理解——
So, how was school?
那么，学校怎么样？
Girl 3 How was school is the typical adult question.
Girl 3 学校怎么样是典型的成人问题。
So you have to answer it like 6,000 times a year.
所以你每年必须回答大约 6,000 次。
So if they say, how is school, you know they have nothing else to say, or they don't know what to say.
因此，如果他们说“学校怎么样”，你就知道他们无话可说，或者他们不知道该说什么。
So, how is school?
那么，学校怎么样？
All adults do that, no matter what.
无论如何，所有成年人都会这样做。
Some adults are worse than others, but--
有些成年人比其他人更糟糕，但是——
Adults should know by now, kids don't really like talking about school.
大人现在应该知道了，孩子们不太喜欢谈论学校。
It's always like, what did you do?
总是这样，你做了什么？
And the kid says, nothing.
孩子说，没什么。
Or they'll say something like, we had math today.
或者他们会说，我们今天有数学。
Yeah, with my parents, I just go, can you ask more specific?
是的，和我父母一起去，我就去，你能问得更具体一些吗？
When it's just like that, and I just want to get out of it, I just go, oh, it's been really nice.
当事情就是这样的时候，我只想摆脱它，我就会说，哦，这真是太好了。
Yeah, I like science the best.
是的，我最喜欢科学。
Assuming their next question, and then getting out of it.
假设他们的下一个问题，然后摆脱它。
If you want to talk to kids, kids say, talk about stuff that interests you and them, like you would with anybody.
孩子们说，如果你想和孩子们交谈，那就谈论你和他们感兴趣的事情，就像你和任何人一样。
Also, not so much teasing all the time.
另外，也不要总是开玩笑。
Also, don't repeat the same things to them every time you see them.
另外，不要每次见到他们时都对他们重复同样的事情。
My parents, they're always asking, so, who do you have a crush on?
我的父母，他们总是问，那么，你迷恋着谁？
Mine too!
我的也是！
Mine too.
我的也是。
Boy 3 Well, I have a neighbor that kind of teases me.
男孩 3 嗯，我有一个邻居经常取笑我。
He's pretty old.
他已经很老了。
He always says like, you're a mama's boy and, who's your girlfriend?
他总是说，你是妈妈的儿子，你的女朋友是谁？
Well, it just doesn't feel right.
嗯，就是感觉不太对劲。
Also, sometimes they make a joke when you're seven, and you laugh so much at it.
而且，有时他们会在你七岁的时候开玩笑，你会笑得很开心。
And then, when you're 10 or 11, it's not so funny anymore.
然后，当你10岁或11岁的时候，它就不再那么有趣了。
And they keep saying the joke.
他们一直在说笑话。
And you just go, oh, that's not very funny anymore.
然后你就走了，哦，这不再有趣了。
My dad, he's the kind of guy who makes those jokes all the time.
我的爸爸，他是那种总是开这种玩笑的人。
And he's like-- I asked him now, can you make me a sandwich?
他就像——我现在问他，你能给我做一个三明治吗？
He's like, poof!
他就像，噗！
Aw, didn't work.
噢，没成功。
And that really annoys me.
这真的让我很恼火。
He does that all the time in front of my friends.
他总是在我朋友面前这样做。
And it kind of annoys me sometimes.
有时这让我很恼火。
Yeah.
是的。
It was funny like the first couple of times.
就像前几次一样，这很有趣。
Honestly, when his dad goes like, poof, sandwich!
老实说，当他爸爸的时候，噗，三明治！
Aw, didn't work, honestly, I find that really funny, sometimes.
哦，没用，说实话，有时我觉得这真的很有趣。
You're not around him all the time.
你并不总是在他身边。
And it gets repetitive.
而且它会重复。
And it's not that funny anymore.
这不再那么有趣了。
Now are you saying that people should talk to you guys like you're adults exactly?
现在你是说人们应该像成年人一样和你们说话吗？
Or is there a difference?
或者有什么区别吗？
Not like adults, but just like, not three year olds.
不像成年人，但就像，不像三岁的孩子。
Just ten year olds, which we are.
我们才十岁。
Of course for the kids it's totally obvious the difference between a three year old and a ten year old, and a fifteen year old, and whatever.
当然，对于孩子们来说，三岁和十岁、十五岁等等之间的区别是完全明显的。
But for adults, that is exactly what is so delicate.
但对于成年人来说，这正是如此微妙的地方。
You don't want to talk down, but you also don't want to be unclear.
你不想低声说话，但你也不想含糊其辞。
You want to relate and be fun, but you also are the adult and you have to be the voice of responsibility, and sometimes, actually, discipline.
你想要与人交往并变得有趣，但你也是成年人，你必须成为责任的代言人，有时，实际上，是纪律的代言人。
And so today we bring you stories of people who have struggled to do this well, taking very different approaches, in some very tough situations.
因此，今天我们为您带来一些故事，讲述了人们在一些非常困难的情况下，采取截然不同的方法，努力做好这件事的故事。
Some real stumpers, actually.
事实上，有些真正的难题。
Situations where most of us would have a hard time figuring out what to say.
我们大多数人都很难弄清楚该说什么。
Our show today in three acts.
我们今天的演出分三幕。
Act One, So, Kids: A Priest, a Rabbi, and a Hooker Walk into a Bar.
第一幕，孩子们：一名牧师、一名拉比和一名妓女走进酒吧。
In that act, two men get a job where they have to make jokes for kids, though they actually don't have any special understanding of kids at all.
在那一幕中，两个男人得到了一份必须给孩子们开玩笑的工作，尽管他们实际上对孩子根本没有任何特殊的理解。
Act Two, Age of Consent.
第二幕，同意年龄。
You know, you tell your kids, come to me, tell me anything.
你知道，你告诉你的孩子，来找我，告诉我任何事情。
So what do you do then when they take you up on it, and say things to you that you have no idea how to respond to?
那么，当他们向你提出问题，并对你说一些你不知道如何回应的话时，你会怎么做呢？
Act Three, Use Your Words.
第三幕，用你的语言。
In that act, Dan Savage makes the case for yelling at children.
在那一幕中，丹·萨维奇阐述了对孩子大喊大叫的理由。
No kidding.
不开玩笑。
Not just yelling, but trying to scare them with your yelling.
不仅仅是大喊大叫，而是试图用大喊大叫来吓唬他们。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One.
第一幕。
Sean O'Connor and Nick Maritato have jobs that keep them about as far away from talking to kids as anybody could be.
肖恩·奥康纳和尼克·马里塔托的工作使他们尽可能远离与孩子交谈。
They're professional comedians.
他们是专业喜剧演员。
Young ones, just starting out.
年轻人，才刚刚开始。
Their job is basically to say stuff that kids shouldn't hear.
他们的工作基本上就是说孩子们不应该听的话。
Until this summer.
直到今年夏天。
They got hired to perform at summer camps, six summer camps.
他们被聘去夏令营表演，一共举办了六个夏令营。
Average age of the audience?
观众的平均年龄？
11.
11.
One of the producers of our show, Jane Feltes, tells what happened.
我们节目的制作人之一简·费尔特斯讲述了发生的事情。
Sean usually gets to work around 9:00 or 10:00 at night.
Sean 通常在晚上 9:00 或 10:00 左右开始工作。
He often performs at a bar called Rififi, in the East Village in New York City.
他经常在纽约市东村一家名为 Rififi 的酒吧表演。
Everyone here is in their 20s, drinking, and talking about where they're going to drink later.
这里的每个人都是20多岁的人，一边喝酒，一边谈论等会儿去哪里喝酒。
You know, adult stuff.
你知道，成人的东西。
I just got kicked out of college.
我刚刚被大学开除了。
And I called my friend up.
我打电话给我的朋友。
And I was like, hey, Jimmy, what are you doing tonight?
我当时想，嘿，吉米，你今晚要做什么？
And he's like, oh man, I just bet Steve that I could do heroin and not get addicted to it.
他说，天哪，我只是跟史蒂夫打赌我可以吸食海洛因而不会上瘾。
Sean is 22, and he's hilarious.
肖恩 22 岁，他很搞笑。
He has a small following.
他有一小部分追随者。
Sometimes he headlines.
有时他会成为头条新闻。
His audience loves him.
他的观众爱他。
He's kind of like a younger, blonder, cuddlier Jack Black.
他有点像年轻、金发、可爱的杰克·布莱克。
His material is about doing drugs, and being lazy, and getting in trouble in high school, and being mistaken for gay.
他的材料是关于吸毒、懒惰、在高中遇到麻烦、被误认为是同性恋的。
So who would ask this guy to make jokes for kids at summer camp?
那么谁会要求这个家伙在夏令营里给孩子们讲笑话呢？
Rachel Tipograph.
雷切尔·蒂波夫。
And she has a lot of experience.
而且她有很多经验。
I went to camp.
我去露营了。
I went to day camp.
我去了日间营。
And then I went seven years sleep away camp in Maine.
然后我去了缅因州过夜营七年。
And I was a counselor at camp last summer.
去年夏天我是营地的辅导员。
Rachel is in college, and she's a super ambitious 20 year old.
雷切尔 (Rachel) 正在上大学，她是一位雄心勃勃的 20 岁女孩。
She has business cards and letterhead.
她有名片和信笺。
This summer, drawing on her eight years of camp experience, Rachel came up with an idea.
今年夏天，雷切尔凭借八年的夏令营经验，想出了一个主意。
Camps hire local entertainers, who Rachel thinks could be more entertaining.
营地聘请当地艺人，雷切尔认为他们可能更有趣。
A lot of times, you'll see a magician.
很多时候，你会看到魔术师。
And he's been there for 15 years.
他已经在那里工作了 15 年。
And he's getting very old.
而且他已经很老了。
And he has his son helping him.
他有他的儿子帮助他。
Or you'll see a local DJ, you know, ex-hippie, knows all about Woodstock, he was there.
或者你会看到一位当地的 DJ，你知道，前嬉皮士，了解伍德斯托克的一切，他就在那里。
So I was like, you know what?
所以我想，你知道吗？
Entertainment doesn't have to be corny.
娱乐不一定是老套的。
It doesn't have to be crappy.
它不一定是蹩脚的。
These camps are in travelable distance from New York City.
这些营地距离纽约市不远。
The New York City comedy world's great, but it's not lucrative.
纽约市的喜剧界很棒，但利润并不高。
So why not send these young comedians, who are very flexible, out to the camps?
那么为什么不把这些非常灵活的年轻喜剧演员送到难民营呢？
So she set up this business and started to recruit comedians.
于是她创办了这家公司并开始招募喜剧演员。
Which led her to Nick and Sean.
这让她找到了尼克和肖恩。
But it wasn't an easy sell.
但这并不容易。
Here's Nick.
这是尼克。
When Sean asked me to do this, he asked me via text message.
当肖恩要求我这样做时，他通过短信询问我。
He was like, hey, do you want to do comedy for camps this summer?
他说，嘿，今年夏天你想为夏令营做喜剧吗？
And I said, no, exclamation point.
我说，不，感叹号。
And then I was like, uh, we're getting paid for that, right?
然后我就想，呃，我们为此得到了报酬，对吧？
This is Sean.
这是肖恩。
Sean O'Connor She was like, there's a ton of money involved.
肖恩·奥康纳（Sean O'Connor）她说，这涉及大量资金。
And I was like, awesome!
我当时想，太棒了！
Perfect!
完美的！
Say no more.
不多说了。
This is great.
这太棒了。
It did, it did.
确实如此，确实如此。
And I opened my mouth, and just went cha-ching.
我张开嘴，开始喝茶。
It was weird.
很奇怪。
My head was a cash register.
我的头是一台收银机。
The ton of money that turns a struggling comedian's head into a cash register might not be as much as you think.
将一个苦苦挣扎的喜剧演员的头变成收银机的大量资金可能没有你想象的那么多。
Nick and Sean usually don't even get paid.
尼克和肖恩通常甚至拿不到报酬。
In fact, they told me that a lot of the time, they have to pay to get on stage.
事实上，他们告诉我，很多时候，他们必须付费才能上台。
Or do what's called a bringer-- bring their own audience.
或者做所谓的“带来者”——带来他们自己的观众。
And that gets old fast for the handful of friends who are willing to go.
对于少数愿意去的朋友来说，这种感觉很快就会过去。
Rachel, on the other hand, was offering $500 a show.
另一方面，雷切尔出价每场演出 500 美元。
And they were doing six shows.
他们做了六场演出。
A ton of money to these guys.
给这些家伙一大笔钱。
But they were going to have to work for it.
但他们必须为此努力。
Boom!
繁荣！
Falling off a couch.
从沙发上摔下来。
Falling into a couch.
跌倒在沙发上。
Falling next to a couch.
跌倒在沙发旁边。
To write all new, kid friendly comedy, the guys spent hours in the living room, watching Nickelodeon, looking for pointers.
为了写出全新的、适合儿童的喜剧，这些人花了几个小时在客厅里看尼克频道，寻找指导。
Nothing better on a peanut butter sandwich than pickled chips, a little bit of mustard.
花生酱三明治上没有什么比腌制薯条和一点芥末更好的了。
Foods like chili, and mustard, and pickles?
像辣椒、芥末和泡菜这样的食物？
Hilarious.
搞笑。
Stand up comedy is all about relating to an audience.
单口喜剧就是要与观众建立联系。
Talking really frankly about the things we all experience, and then adding some funny observation that we wish we thought of.
非常坦率地谈论我们都经历过的事情，然后添加一些我们希望想到的有趣的观察结果。
That's why so many jokes start with, so you know when you're at the DMV?
这就是为什么这么多笑话的开头，所以你知道你什么时候在 DMV 吗？
Or, the thing about working in an office is.
或者，在办公室工作的事情是。
But these kids are 11.
但这些孩子才11岁。
Nick told me they thought about producing some tutorial videos that would give the campers the essential background information they needed, in order to understand his jokes.
尼克告诉我，他们考虑制作一些教程视频，为营员提供他们所需的基本背景信息，以便理解他的笑话。
We had this idea.
我们有这个想法。
We were like, it would be funny if we--
我们当时想，如果我们——
Like, tell a joke, and it would be about sex.
比如，讲一个关于性的笑话。
And then cut to, OK, when a man loves a woman-- like have to explain life to them before.
然后切到，好吧，当一个男人爱一个女人时——就像之前必须向他们解释生活一样。
And a long time ago, white people thought it was OK to own black people.
很久以前，白人认为拥有黑人是可以接受的。
They used a very dirty word called the n-word.
他们使用了一个非常肮脏的词，叫做“n-word”。
And we're not going to use it right now.
我们现在不打算使用它。
Do kids at this age know they're going to die yet?
这个年纪的孩子知道他们会死吗？
No?
不？
[PHONE DIALIING AND RINGING] Sean O'Connor Hey, Rachel.
[电话拨号和铃声] 肖恩·奥康纳 嘿，瑞秋。
How are you?
你好吗？
Sean O'Connor I'm good, how are you?
肖恩·奥康纳 我很好，你好吗？
To top it all off, Rachel gave them a list of things they're absolutely not allowed to joke about.
最重要的是，雷切尔给了他们一份绝对不允许开玩笑的事情清单。
No sex, drugs, alcohol, getting in trouble, no ethnic jokes, no making fun of kids, no making fun of parents, no making fun of camp counselors, no hurting anyone's feelings, which really doesn't leave the guys much to work with.
没有性、毒品、酒精、惹麻烦、没有民族笑话、没有取笑孩子、没有取笑父母、没有取笑营地辅导员、没有伤害任何人的感情，这真的不会让这些人有太多工作可做。
And they call Rachel now and then to run ideas by her.
他们时不时地打电话给雷切尔，让她提出想法。
We just were wondering about like I have this joke about how I got gay-bashed.
我们只是想知道我有一个关于我是如何受到同性恋攻击的笑话。
Can I talk about that?
我可以谈谈吗？
No. If you guys started doing that, I can honestly see a camp woman getting on stage, and kicking you guys off.
不。如果你们开始这样做，我真的可以看到一个营地妇女走上舞台，把你们踢下去。
Whoa.
哇哦。
I wouldn't want that.
我不想那样。
I don't want that.
我不想要这样。
Um.
嗯。
If you honestly think like, oh, well this joke might get me in trouble, I wouldn't do it.
如果你真的认为，哦，这个笑话可能会给我带来麻烦，我就不会这么做。
OK.
好的。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Sean O'Connor All right.
肖恩·奥康纳 好的。
Bye.
再见。
Bye.
再见。
Jane Feltes They tried adapting some of their regular material, like a joke Sean had about having a party when your parents are out of town, and getting drunk and destroying stuff.
Jane Feltes 他们尝试改编一些常规材料，比如 Sean 讲的一个笑话，内容是当你的父母不在城里时开派对，然后喝醉并毁坏东西。
Only without the party, or the drinking, or the destruction.
只是没有聚会，没有饮酒，没有破坏。
A few days before the first show, Rachel asked Nick and Sean to send over a script of their entire routine, just so she could be absolutely sure they were on schedule and being kid appropriate.
在首场演出前几天，雷切尔要求尼克和肖恩发送一份他们整个演出的剧本，这样她就可以绝对确定他们按计划进行并且适合孩子。
And she approved almost all it.
而她几乎都批准了这一切。
Which sounded promising.
这听起来很有希望。
Until I asked Sean to try out some of the material on me.
直到我要求肖恩在我身上试用一些材料。
Yeah.
是的。
Oh, man.
哦，伙计。
They're so bad.
他们太糟糕了。
I love soup because not only is it delicious, it's also an awesome weapon.
我喜欢汤，因为它不仅美味，而且还是一种很棒的武器。
I don't get it.
我不明白。
Sean O'Connor It's hot.
肖恩·奥康纳 天气很热。
Because soups hot.
因为汤是热的。
If you throw it at someone, it hurts.
如果你把它扔到某人身上，会很痛。
What if I said hot soup?
如果我说热汤呢？
It's a three hour drive north to Camp Taconic in Massachusetts.
向北行驶三小时即可到达马萨诸塞州的塔科尼克营地。
And on the way up, the guys are singing along to music, and stopping for donuts, and doing impressions of Rachel.
在上山的路上，伙计们一边跟着音乐唱歌，一边停下来吃甜甜圈，并模仿瑞秋的样子。
But the mood turns as we get closer to camp.
但随着我们越来越接近营地，气氛发生了变化。
The first thing we see when we pull up to Camp Taconic are rows of cute little cabins.
当我们把车停到塔科尼克营地时，我们首先看到的是一排排可爱的小木屋。
There's a pond, and a barn, and a tether ball, and kids scattered about.
有一个池塘、一个谷仓、一个系绳球，孩子们散落在各处。
I quit.
我不干了。
See you later.
稍后见。
Nick Maritato I'm done.
尼克·马里塔托 我说完了。
We're done.
我们完成了。
This is over.
这已经结束了。
Interview done.
面试完毕。
Oh, my God.
我的天啊。
This is so weird.
这太奇怪了。
And scary.
而且很可怕。
I have so many different feelings right now.
我现在有很多不同的感受。
Like?
喜欢？
Sean O'Connor Fear.
肖恩·奥康纳 恐惧。
Nervousness.
紧张。
Getting bitten by bugs, is that a feeling?
被虫子咬了，是一种感觉吗？
The show is being held in a little lodge.
演出在一个小旅馆里举行。
And there are long wooden benches full of fidgety kids wrapped in blankets.
长木凳上坐满了裹着毯子的烦躁的孩子。
A few hundred of them.
其中有数百人。
They look so tiny.
它们看起来好小啊。
You can tell they're really excited.
你可以看出他们真的很兴奋。
I overhear one boy asking his friends, "Do you think these guys know Dane Cook?" Who is pretty much the favorite stand-up among preteens right now.
我无意中听到一个男孩问他的朋友：“你认为这些人认识戴恩·库克吗？”他几乎是目前青少年中最喜欢的单口喜剧演员。
Counselors get their kids to quiet down, and Nick and Sean walk to the mic.
辅导员让孩子们安静下来，尼克和肖恩走到麦克风前。
They have been planning this moment for weeks, writing, and rewriting, and guessing about how the kids would react.
他们已经为这一刻计划了数周，写了又重写，并猜测孩子们会如何反应。
And now, here they were.
现在，他们来了。
The longer it takes for you to be quiet, the longer it takes for us to start.
你安静的时间越长，我们开始的时间就越长。
Thank you very much.
非常感谢。
The first thing that you could do is introduce what we are going to do first, for this friggin' awesome thing.
你能做的第一件事就是介绍我们首先要做的事情，因为这真是太棒了。
Friggin'.
他妈的。
He said friggin'.
他说他妈的。
Kids look at each other like, what did he almost say?
孩子们面面相觑，他差点说什么了？
It just throws everybody, Sean and Nick included.
这让所有人都感到困惑，包括肖恩和尼克。
Um.
嗯。
What are we going to do?
我们要做什么？
Jane Feltes It goes steadily downhill from there.
Jane Feltes 从那里开始稳步走下坡路。
Jokes don't land.
笑话不落地。
And some jokes, they're like not even jokes.
还有一些笑话，它们甚至不像笑话。
Here's another reason why I didn't want to go to sleep away camp.
这是我不想去露营地过夜的另一个原因。
You have got to sleep in bunks.
你必须睡在铺位上。
And that weirds me out.
这让我很奇怪。
Because bunks are 100% made of wood, right?
因为铺位 100% 是木头制成的，对吗？
And you know what I am really afraid of is fire.
你知道我真正害怕的是火。
And wood is the easiest thing to set on fire.
而木头是最容易着火的东西。
I don't want to be set on fire when I'm sleeping.
我不想在睡觉时被人着火。
I mean, who does, right?
我的意思是，谁会这么做，对吧？
I know.
我知道。
Has anybody tried to set you guys on fire before?
以前有人试图放火烧你们吗？
The counselors' faces say it all.
辅导员的表情说明了一切。
They're horrified.
他们很害怕。
They're even giving me dirty looks.
他们甚至用肮脏的眼神看着我。
And then, there are hecklers.
然后，还有质问者。
Four boys sitting on the floor in front of Sean who are talking to him through his entire act.
四个男孩坐在肖恩面前的地板上，在整个表演过程中他们一直在和他说话。
I mean they will not shut up.
我的意思是他们不会闭嘴。
I think-- you guys know Applebee's?
我想——你们知道 Applebee's 吗？
You love Applebee's?
你喜欢Applebee's吗？
It's your grandparents' favorite restaurant?
这是你祖父母最喜欢的餐厅吗？
Yeah, it's my grandparents' favorite restaurant.
是的，这是我祖父母最喜欢的餐厅。
Great.
伟大的。
I love you.
我爱你。
You just keep talking.
你就继续说吧。
It's awesome.
太棒了。
Because that's what I wanted.
因为这就是我想要的。
I wanted to come up here and just talk to-- what's your name?
我想来这里谈谈——你叫什么名字？
Daniel.
丹尼尔.
Sean O'Connor Daniel?
肖恩·奥康纳 丹尼尔？
Awesome.
惊人的。
You guys are so good.
你们真好。
Come up here.
到这里来吧。
Four little boys jump up, totally excited and grinning.
四个小男孩跳了起来，非常兴奋，咧着嘴笑。
It's clear to everyone in the room that in the battle between adults and children, the children had suddenly got the upper hand.
在场所有人都清楚，在大人与孩子的战斗中，孩子们突然占据了上风。
It's Lord of the Flies up in here.
这里是蝇王。
Sean's losing control.
肖恩失去了控制。
OK.
好的。
Since you guys just love attention and stuff, you guys can all each tell a joke.
因为你们只是喜欢关注之类的东西，所以你们每个人都可以讲一个笑话。
And if they don't laugh, you have to go sit down and not talk.
如果他们不笑，你就必须坐下来，不要说话。
You go first!
你先走！
Camper 1 So there are two Irish guys in a pub.
露营者 1 酒吧里有两个爱尔兰人。
Ethnic joke?
民族笑话？
Check.
查看。
Drinking joke?
喝酒开玩笑？
Check.
查看。
He was right to cut him off.
他打断他的话是对的。
And this speaks to the whole problem here.
这说明了整个问题。
Sean and Nick are telling kids jokes to kids who already know adult jokes and find them funny.
肖恩和尼克正在给那些已经知道成人笑话并觉得有趣的孩子们讲笑话。
After all, Dane Cook is their favorite comedian.
毕竟，戴恩·库克是他们最喜欢的喜剧演员。
And he's crazy dirty.
而且他太脏了。
At one point, the guys just give up.
在某一时刻，这些人就放弃了。
The kids are talking, not laughing, not paying attention.
孩子们在说话，没有笑，也没有专心。
But Sean and Nick can't end the show yet, because it's a camp.
但肖恩和尼克还不能结束演出，因为这是一个营地。
And every hour is planned.
而且每一个小时都是有计划的。
The kids have to stay in this building, sitting down, fidgeting until bedtime.
孩子们必须呆在这栋楼里，坐着坐立不安，直到睡觉。
So Sean and Nick stop being comedians.
所以肖恩和尼克不再是喜剧演员了。
They just do anything they can think of to keep the crowd occupied.
他们只是想尽一切办法让观众有事可做。
I mean it's like, how bad do you guys just want to scream at the top of your lungs?
我的意思是，你们到底有多想大声尖叫？
I want to scream!
我想尖叫！
AHHHHHH!
啊啊啊啊！
Campers [SCREAMING]
露营者[尖叫]
Good!
好！
Good!
好的！
Good!
好的！
Jane Feltes Finally it's over.
简·费尔特斯 终于结束了。
And the kids rush back to their bunks.
孩子们赶紧回到自己的床位。
No signing of autographs, no high fives.
没有签名，没有击掌。
I talked to a few of them about what we just saw.
我和他们中的一些人谈论了我们刚刚看到的事情。
They could make the jokes a little more mature and things.
他们可以让笑话变得更成熟一些。
Be funnier.
变得更有趣。
Camper 6 Yeah, exactly.
露营者 6 是的，完全正确。
Get better at it.
做得更好。
Practice at it.
练习一下。
I find a group of staff people standing outside the lodge.
我发现一群工作人员站在旅馆外面。
There are six grown people standing here in a circle.
这里有六个成年人站成一圈。
Six of them, hands in their pockets, kicking the dirt.
他们六个人，双手插在口袋里，踢着泥土。
Do you think the kids liked it?
你觉得孩子们喜欢吗？
Did you guys like it?
你们喜欢吗？
Anyone?
有人吗？
I thought it was a little inappropriate.
我觉得有点不合适。
Talk about death and burning bunks.
谈论死亡和燃烧的铺位。
Adults maybe can handle it.
成年人也许可以应付。
But these are kids.
但这些都是孩子。
So I thought it was a little inappropriate.
所以我觉得有点不合适。
On the way home, the guys talked about how it wasn't that bad, and about stuff that had nothing to do with the performance at all.
在回家的路上，伙计们谈论了事情并没有那么糟糕，以及一些与表演完全无关的事情。
I kept my thoughts to myself.
我把自己的想法留给了自己。
A week later, we finally sat down together.
一周后，我们终于坐在一起。
You know, I think part of being a performer is living in denial about failing.
你知道，我认为作为一名表演者的一部分就是生活在否认失败之中。
You don't want to decide you're the comedian who bombs, because then how hard would it be to go on stage next time?
你不想认定自己就是那个失败的喜剧演员，因为那样的话下次上台会有多难呢？
How do you think it went?
你认为进展如何？
Nick Maritato The shows, they went well.
尼克·马里塔托 演出进行得很顺利。
A lot better than I thought they were going to go.
比我想象的要好得多。
They didn't-- I don't think that it was amazing.
他们没有——我不认为这有什么了不起的。
And you Sean?
肖恩你呢？
Sean O'Connor I thought the shows were awesome.
肖恩·奥康纳 我觉得这些节目很棒。
What did they think?
他们怎么想？
Now, when you say they, do you mean all?
现在，当你说“它们”时，你的意思是“全部”吗？
They all hated it.
他们都讨厌它。
Nick Maritato What did they say?
尼克·马里塔托 他们说什么？
were scary.
很可怕。
Nick Maritato Yeah, you know what?
尼克·马里塔托 是的，你知道吗？
That's pretty right on.
说得非常对。
The counselors thought that it was totally inappropriate.
辅导员认为这是完全不合适的。
They said you were unprepared.
他们说你没有准备好。
A couple of girls told me that their counselor felt so bad that they had to sit through it, that they got to stay up really late out in the field playing games, so that they could have had something fun to do that night.
几个女孩告诉我，她们的辅导员感觉很糟糕，她们不得不忍受这一切，她们必须在野外玩游戏直到很晚，这样她们那天晚上才能有一些有趣的事情做。
I agree.
我同意。
I felt it.
我感觉到了。
I went out there.
我出去了。
I looked at them.
我看着他们。
They were just confused.
他们只是很困惑。
They didn't like it.
他们不喜欢它。
Of course, this is just the opposite of what he said when I first asked him just a minute before, which he cops to right away.
当然，这与我一分钟前第一次问他时他所说的正好相反，他立即回答了。
Why would I really think that was good?
为什么我真的认为那很好？
I was literally going through the motions.
我实际上只是在走走过场。
But if outright you have clips of people saying that it's terrible and things like-- OK, I'm not going to hide it.
但如果你有一些片段，人们说这很糟糕，比如——好吧，我不会隐藏它。
I'm not a moron.
我不是白痴。
That was bad.
那很糟糕。
I didn't have a fun time.
我没有玩得很开心。
I was so happy when it was over.
结束时我很高兴。
Honestly, when I got home on Monday, it felt so weird, because it felt like a part of me was missing.
老实说，当我周一回到家时，感觉很奇怪，因为感觉就像我的一部分消失了。
I'm not even kidding when I say this.
当我这么说时，我什至不是在开玩笑。
So don't roll your eyes.
所以不要翻白眼。
I got so stressed out, I just felt like it was like my whole world came crashing down.
我压力很大，感觉整个世界都崩溃了。
I went home to my parents' house, because I had my dad's car from that trip.
我回到了我父母家，因为那次旅行我开着我爸爸的车。
And when I dropped it off, I just went upstairs to my room and laid in my bed.
当我把它放下后，我就上楼回到我的房间，躺在床上。
And I woke up at 1:00 AM.
我凌晨 1:00 就醒了。
And I felt so disoriented.
我感到很迷失方向。
What happened was my heart started racing.
发生的事情是我的心开始狂跳。
Sean said he started to breathe faster.
肖恩说他开始呼吸加快。
And he was sweating.
他满头大汗。
And then suddenly, he felt a pain when he tried to swallow.
然后突然，当他试图吞咽时，他感到一阵疼痛。
And it just wouldn't go away.
它就是不会消失。
After a few minutes, he had convinced himself that he had throat cancer and was about to die.
几分钟后，他确信自己得了咽喉癌，快要死了。
And I Googled throat cancer.
我用谷歌搜索了喉癌。
And of course, when you Google something you have all the symptoms, because you could have all those symptoms and have anything.
当然，当你用谷歌搜索某些东西时，你就会有所有的症状，因为你可能有所有这些症状并且有任何东西。
But they're the same symptoms as a cold.
但它们的症状与感冒相同。
So I Googled that.
所以我用谷歌搜索了一下。
And I was like, oh, I do have throat cancer.
我当时想，哦，我确实患有喉癌。
So I actually woke my parents up.
所以我真的叫醒了我的父母。
I was like, take me to the hospital.
我当时就想，带我去医院吧。
That was the first of four trips to the ER.
这是四次去急诊室的第一次。
He had blood work done, and CAT scans, and a barium swallow, and various other tests.
他做了血液检查、CAT 扫描、吞钡检查以及各种其他检查。
All of which came back negative.
所有这些结果都是阴性。
No cancer.
没有癌症。
No nothing.
没有什么。
Turned out he was having panic attacks and was told to start seeing someone about his anxiety.
原来他患有恐慌症，并被告知要开始见人来缓解他的焦虑。
Well my whole thing was I didn't want to bomb.
好吧，我的全部想法就是我不想轰炸。
Not having people like me.
没有像我这样的人。
That's pretty much-- that was where all the stress was coming.
这几乎就是所有压力的来源。
When I do comedy, when everyone does comedy, if you don't find the jokes funny, it's really hard to say them with conviction.
当我拍喜剧的时候，当每个人都拍喜剧的时候，如果你不觉得笑话好笑，真的很难说得有说服力。
There's no way to sell jokes that you don't find funny.
没有办法出售你觉得不好笑的笑话。
Yeah, that's really what it was.
是的，确实是这样。
Everyone was just going like, just be funny, be funny.
每个人都会说，要有趣，要有趣。
And then you're like, I have got to be funny.
然后你会想，我必须变得有趣。
But if you just are funny, it's better than trying.
但如果你只是觉得有趣，那就比尝试更好。
Trying to be funny is the worst.
试图搞笑是最糟糕的。
You could smell that from a mile away, the desperation of needing laughter.
你在一英里之外就能闻到那种渴望笑声的绝望。
In a way, they were doomed from the start.
从某种程度上来说，他们从一开始就注定了失败。
Like I said, Sean is 22, Nick is 20.
就像我说的，肖恩 22 岁，尼克 20 岁。
And this is the worst possible age to connect with an 11 year old.
这是与 11 岁的孩子交往最糟糕的年龄。
When you're 22, you don't want to remember what it was like to be 11.
当你 22 岁的时候，你不想记住 11 岁的样子。
You're frantically running away from that.
你疯狂地逃避那个。
No wonder they couldn't be funny for kids.
难怪它们对孩子们来说不好笑。
The guys did five other camp shows.
他们还表演了另外五场营地表演。
And they swear-- for real, for real this time-- that they got better.
他们发誓——这次是真的，真的——他们变得更好了。
For one thing, they weren't as nervous.
一方面，他们没有那么紧张。
Believe it or not, they're going out again next summer.
不管你信不信，他们明年夏天还会再出去。
Jane Feltes.
简·费尔特斯。
[MUSIC - "KIDS DON'T FOLLOW" BY THE REPLACEMENTS]
[音乐-“孩子们不跟随”替换]
Coming up, kids talk about sex.
接下来，孩子们谈论性。
Dan Savage doesn't.
丹·萨维奇则不然。
Incredible.
极好的。
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
Chelsea is 18.
切尔西18岁了。
And because she sees some problems with the way that many adults talk to kids about sex, she became one of the editors of a magazine where teenagers write about sex for a teenage audience.
因为她发现许多成年人与孩子谈论性的方式存在一些问题，所以她成为了一本杂志的编辑之一，该杂志由青少年为青少年读者撰写有关性的文章。
It's called Sex, Etc. And of course they have a website, though be careful how you type in the address.
它的名字叫“性别”等。当然，他们有一个网站，但要小心输入地址的方式。
Sexetc.com actually is porn.
Sexetc.com 实际上是色情网站。
But sexetc.org, that's our site.
但是 sexetc.org，那是我们的网站。
That's Karen, another teen editor.
那是凯伦，另一位青少年编辑。
I talked to seven of them.
我和他们中的七个人谈过。
There is also [?
还有[?
Sharonia ?], Natasha, Michael, Erica, and Ethan.
莎罗妮娅？]、娜塔莎、迈克尔、艾丽卡和伊森。
All but two of them are seniors in high school, 17 years old.
除两名外，其他人都是高中生，17 岁。
In the magazine they write very chatty and very frank articles about say, boys saying no to sex, about the availability of abortion for teenagers, about misperceptions about HIV, and condoms, and how you get pregnant.
他们在杂志上写了一些非常健谈和非常坦率的文章，比如男孩对性行为说不，青少年堕胎的可能性，对艾滋病毒和避孕套的误解，以及如何怀孕。
I visited them because they seemed like the perfect people to discuss how adults talk about sex with kids.
我拜访他们是因为他们似乎是讨论成年人如何与孩子谈论性的完美人选。
For one thing, they had done a survey of their readers on this very subject.
一方面，他们针对这个主题对读者进行了一项调查。
Actually the first time sex ever came up between me and my parents--
事实上，这是我和我父母之间第一次发生性关系——
A warning to listeners, we don't get very explicit in this discussion, but we do acknowledge that people, and teenagers, have sex.
对听众的警告，我们在这次讨论中没有非常明确，但我们确实承认人们和青少年有性行为。
--what happened was, it was when Friends , that TV sitcom, was like really big.
——发生的事情是，当时电视情景喜剧《老友记》非常火爆。
So my parents used to watch it all the time.
所以我爸妈就经常看。
And they used to have a lot of sex jokes on that show.
他们在那个节目中曾经有很多性笑话。
So one day, during a commercial break, I turned to my dad-- which I picked the wrong parent, by the way.
所以有一天，在广告时段，我求助于我的父亲——顺便说一句，我选错了父亲。
I should have really just asked my mother.
我真应该问我妈妈。
I asked my dad, what is sex?
我问爸爸，性是什么？
And he had no idea what to tell me for a second.
他一时不知道该告诉我什么。
So he turned off the TV, he looked at me, and he said, "It's when grown adults want to, like, hold each other and hug each other." I mean, that was such a terrible explanation.
于是他关掉了电视，看着我，说道：“这是成年人想要互相拥抱的时候。”我的意思是，这是一个非常糟糕的解释。
I was so unsatisfied with what he told me.
我对他告诉我的事情非常不满意。
In their survey, lots of kids complained about vagueness and lack of useful information.
在他们的调查中，许多孩子抱怨内容模糊且缺乏有用的信息。
One kid wrote, "My first conversation with my mom about sex was really weird.
一个孩子写道：“我和妈妈第一次谈论性话题真的很奇怪。
It was almost like she was preaching to me how if I have sex, I will have a baby, and then die.
这几乎就像她在向我说教，如果我发生性行为，我就会生下孩子，然后死去。
It was the night before my sixth grade dance." Another wrote, "My dad started the conversation.
那是我六年级舞会的前一天晚上。”另一位网友写道：“是我爸爸开始了谈话。
He took me out in the backyard when the orange tree was pollinating, and explained how it worked." One student wrote that her mom ambushed her in the car.
当橘子树授粉时，他带我去了后院，并向我解释了授粉的原理。”一名学生写道，她妈妈在车里伏击了她。
"The first time you have sex is not going to be fun," was her first warning.
“第一次做爱不会很有趣，”这是她的第一次警告。
"It's awkward, it's embarrassing-- and trust me on this-- it's going to hurt." Well thanks, Mom.
“这很尴尬，很尴尬——相信我——这会很痛苦。”嗯，谢谢，妈妈。
And the survey done by Sex, Etc. showed that sex ed classes in schools are all over the place right now.
Sex, Etc. 所做的调查显示，现在学校里的性教育课程随处可见。
Here's Natasha, who wrote the survey questions.
这是 Natasha，她撰写了调查问题。
Some people didn't even have sex ed.
有些人甚至没有接受过性教育。
They were like, I don't have sex ed.
他们说，我没有性教育。
Some people were like, I wish I had sex ed, but I don't.
有些人说，我希望我有性教育，但我没有。
Some people talked about how their teacher just talked about abstinence only.
有些人说他们的老师只是讲禁欲。
They didn't really answer any of their questions.
他们没有真正回答任何问题。
Some people said they had really good teachers.
有人说他们有非常好的老师。
But most of the people that really replied said that they really weren't satisfied with their sex ed.
但大多数真正回复的人都表示，他们对自己的性教育确实不满意。
I was actually the one.
其实我就是那个人。
I raised my hand in class and I said, but how does the sperm get to the vagina?
我在课堂上举手说，但是精子是怎么到达阴道的呢？
And I guess it wasn't in the material.
我猜材料里没有。
They're not supposed to talk about it.
他们不应该谈论这件事。
So they were just like-- they just didn't talk to us about it.
所以他们就像——他们只是没有和我们谈论这件事。
It's confusing.
这很令人困惑。
You don't know what that means.
你不知道那意味着什么。
When I was younger, I thought sex was just sort of like people rubbing up against each other.
当我年轻的时候，我认为性就像人们互相摩擦。
Because you can see on TV shows or movies, you see that, but you don't actually see.
因为你可以在电视节目或电影中看到，但你实际上并没有看到。
So you're like, OK, they rub against each other, but then how does that little fish get inside her body?
所以你会想，好吧，它们互相摩擦，但是那条小鱼是如何进入她的身体的呢？
And I would think of it as like a little fish, because you see it on the movie.
我会认为它就像一条小鱼，因为你在电影中看到它。
And so how does it get inside her body?
那么它是如何进入她的身体的呢？
It's so confusing and vague.
这太令人困惑和模糊了。
Most of the stuff, honestly, most of the things I learned about sex are probably from watching pornography, because there's a lot there.
老实说，我学到的关于性的大部分知识可能都是通过观看色情内容获得的，因为那里有很多东西。
You might as well be taking notes, because it's very up close and personal.
你不妨做笔记，因为这是非常近距离和个人化的。
And they're not trying to censor themselves.
他们并没有试图审查自己。
So they can show anything they want.
所以他们可以展示任何他们想要的东西。
And you learn.
你就会学到。
Because they're wearing condoms most of the time.
因为他们大部分时间都戴着避孕套。
Porn kind of shows you exactly what happens.
色情片向你展示了到底发生了什么。
Like you'll see it on TV, and they're just kind of rubbing together under the covers.
就像你会在电视上看到的那样，他们只是在被子下面摩擦在一起。
But porn is like there.
但色情片就在那里。
Like it zooms in, and all kinds of stuff.
就像它放大一样，还有各种各样的东西。
So it really shows you what actually happens.
所以它确实向您展示了实际发生的情况。
The most confusing thing about talking to these kids is to find out that there are so many ways for parents to mess this up.
与这些孩子交谈时最令人困惑的事情是发现父母有很多方法可以把事情搞砸。
Kids complain when parents don't approach them to talk about sex.
当父母不与孩子谈论性时，孩子们会抱怨。
They also complain that parents bring it up out of the blue, when they're unprepared, and trap them.
他们还抱怨父母在他们毫无准备的情况下突然提出这件事，并让他们陷入困境。
They complain that parents are usually vague, though of course when they want details, they emphatically do not want to hear first person accounts of their parents' sex lives.
他们抱怨父母通常含糊其辞，当然，当他们想要了解细节时，他们强调不想听到关于父母性生活的第一人称叙述。
One kid in the survey wrote, "I was in fifth grade at the time when my parents started the sex talk with, 'The first time your father and I had intercourse--' I didn't need the details."
调查中的一个孩子写道：“当我上五年级时，我的父母开始谈论性话题，‘你父亲和我第一次发生性行为——’我不需要细节。”
I don't want to know nothing.
我不想什么都不知道。
I don't want to know about the backseat.
我不想知道后座的事。
I don't want to know about when they had drive-in movie theaters.
我不想知道他们什么时候有汽车电影院。
I don't want to know about nothing.
我什么都不想知道。
I just don't want to know.
我只是不想知道。
Like my father-- no, my father-- says stuff to me like that.
就像我的父亲——不，我的父亲——对我这样说。
"Yeah, me and your mother went to the hotel, and we--" I don't want to know.
“是的，我和你妈妈去了旅馆，我们——”我不想知道。
But there's a surprising lack of consensus among these seven teenagers, seven kids who write about this, and have thought about this a lot, about how parents should go about talking sex with their own kids.
但令人惊讶的是，这七名青少年、七名写下此事并思考了很多的孩子，对于父母应该如何与自己的孩子谈论性，却缺乏共识。
Two of the editors said that their parents are so uncomfortable with the subject, they preferred not to talk to them about it.
两位编辑表示，他们的父母对这个话题感到非常不舒服，他们宁愿不和他们谈论这件事。
The two editors who had the easiest time talking about sex with their own parents have the kind of incredibly close relationships with their parents where they can talk about anything.
这两位最容易与自己的父母谈论性的编辑与父母的关系非常密切，他们可以谈论任何事情。
So it's hard to draw any kind of lesson from their experience, other than the not very helpful, have a great relationship with your kid.
因此，很难从他们的经历中吸取任何教训，除了不太有帮助的、与你的孩子建立良好的关系之外。
For parents who are not spectacularly close with their own teenagers-- which is to say, most parents-- there was agreement about two things.
对于那些与自己的孩子关系不太密切的父母（也就是说，大多数父母）来说，有两件事是一致的。
One, parents need to understand that teenagers do not have the facts.
第一，父母需要了解青少年没有事实。
They're not getting the facts in school, probably.
他们可能在学校里没有了解事实。
And they need some basic information from books, or websites, or teachers, or wherever.
他们需要从书籍、网站、老师或任何地方获得一些基本信息。
And number two, no matter how hard it is, parents should at least try to talk to them.
第二，无论多么困难，父母至少应该尝试与他们交谈。
Again here's Natasha.
娜塔莎又来了。
I know you're getting older.
我知道你正在变老。
Sex may become an issue, or sex is a part of growing up.
性可能成为一个问题，或者性是成长的一部分。
It's natural.
这是很自然的。
If you have questions--
如果您有疑问——
Even as you're saying this, it's so awkward.
虽然你这么说，但还是很尴尬。
I feel so awkward hearing you say this.
听到你这么说我感觉很尴尬。
This sounds terrible.
这听起来很糟糕。
[LAUGHTER] Basically-- Ira Glass You're terrible at this.
[笑声] 基本上—— Ira Glass 你在这方面很糟糕。
I did a good job on my brother.
我对我弟弟做得很好。
I did a really good job on him.
我对他做得非常好。
But I actually locked my little brother in my room with me, because I wasn't sure if my mom was going to do it or not.
但我实际上把弟弟锁在了我的房间里，因为我不确定我妈妈是否会这么做。
So I was like, somebody has to do it.
所以我想，必须有人来做这件事。
How old was he?
他几岁了？
Natasha He was 13.
娜塔莎他13岁。
I just showed him diagrams.
我只是给他看了图表。
I showed him the picture.
我给他看了照片。
So I gave him condoms and everything.
所以我给了他避孕套和一切。
I was like, here, take these.
我当时想，在这里，拿着这些。
If you're going to do it, use these.
如果您打算这样做，请使用这些。
I said, this is what happens when you do this.
我说，这就是当你这样做时会发生的事情。
This is what happens when you do that.
这就是当你这样做时会发生的情况。
If you want to do this, you should do this.
如果你想这样做，你应该这样做。
But if I had my own child, and I watched them grow up from a baby into this adult, then yeah, it would definitely be difficult, just because of the age difference, because of--
但如果我有自己的孩子，我看着他们从婴儿成长为成年人，那么是的，这肯定会很困难，只是因为年龄差异，因为——
No, I understand that.
不，我明白。
I understand.
我明白。
It's just interesting that you have in your head, oh someday I'm going to be older.
有趣的是，你脑子里一直在想，哦，有一天我会变老。
And then I'm not going to be able to talk to my kid either.
然后我也无法和我的孩子说话。
Yeah, it's just kind of the norm.
是的，这只是一种常态。
You kind of assume that when you get older, you're not going to be able to talk to your kids about sex.
您有点认为，当您长大后，您将无法与孩子谈论性。
I'm comfortable with my brother.
我和我哥哥在一起很舒服。
I can talk to him about it.
我可以和他谈谈这件事。
But if it's my child, it would just be awkward.
但如果是我的孩子，那就尴尬了。
Were there certain things that you said to your brother, and the way you said them, that it's impossible to imagine your mother or father saying to you?
你是否对你的兄弟说过某些话，以及你说这些话的方式，是你无法想象你的母亲或父亲对你说的？
Definitely.
确实。
Like I told my brother, wrap it before you tap it.
就像我告诉我兄弟的那样，在敲击它之前先把它包起来。
That kind of thing.
那种事。
I wouln't expect for my mother to say that to me.
我没想到我妈妈会对我说这样的话。
It's really hard for your parents to be that blunt with you, because it's a really, really awkward situation.
你的父母很难对你如此直言不讳，因为这是一个非常非常尴尬的情况。
It's just really awkward.
这真的很尴尬。
That's really what it is.
确实是这样。
Awkward.
尴尬的。
I think it's really hard for parents.
我觉得父母真的很难。
But they've just got to suck it up.
但他们只能忍气吞声。
They've done a lot of hard things in their life.
他们这一生做了很多艰难的事。
Talking about sex shouldn't be one of the hardest things they've ever done, so.
谈论性不应该是他们做过的最困难的事情之一，所以。
It can be very hard for parents, especially when their kids don't just come to them to talk about sex, but let them know that they're doing things that the parents don't necessarily approve of.
这对父母来说可能非常困难，尤其是当他们的孩子不仅来找他们谈论性，而且让他们知道他们正在做父母不一定同意的事情时。
This woman sent in an essay to us that she had written about what is happening in her family, between her and one of her daughters.
这位女士给我们发了一篇文章，她写的是她的家庭、她和她的一个女儿之间发生的事情。
It's so frank about what's happening, as you'll hear, that we have changed everybody's names and, in fact, had somebody else read it on the air.
正如您所听到的，它对正在发生的事情是如此坦率，以至于我们更改了每个人的名字，事实上，还让其他人在广播中朗读了它。
Here it is.
这里是。
I sit alone at my kitchen table, nibbling on a stale oatmeal cookie.
我独自坐在厨房的桌子旁，啃着一块不新鲜的燕麦饼干。
It's midnight, and I'm hoping that the dose of tryptophan I had washed down with a glass of cold milk will kick in soon, so I can sleep.
现在是午夜，我希望我用一杯冷牛奶冲下的色氨酸很快就能发挥作用，这样我就可以睡觉了。
I'm a bundle of nerves because my 16 year old daughter just told me she lost her virginity the night before.
我很紧张，因为我 16 岁的女儿刚刚告诉我她前一天晚上失去了童贞。
When Didi delivered the news tonight, I had nothing to say, which surprised me, because I'd always thought this is what I wanted with my three daughters, an open relationship.
当滴滴今晚宣布这个消息时，我无话可说，这让我感到惊讶，因为我一直认为这就是我想要和我的三个女儿在一起的，一种开放的关系。
I hadn't thought through what that means.
我没有思考过这意味着什么。
Which is that they talk, and then I talk.
就是他们说话，然后我说话。
In this case, Didi talked.
这种情况下，滴滴说话了。
And I could only come up with a bland admonition.
我只能提出一个平淡的警告。
Don't sleep around, I said dryly.
别到处乱睡，我干巴巴地说。
I am not the mother I had hoped to be.
我不是我希望成为的母亲。
My three girls are not the daughters I thought they'd be.
我的三个女儿并不是我想象中的女儿。
I didn't think any of the girls would be valedictorians.
我不认为任何女孩会成为告别演说者。
But I expected my oldest daughter to graduate with something higher than a 1.8 GPA.
但我希望我的大女儿能够以高于 1.8 的 GPA 毕业。
My middle daughter didn't even do that well.
我的二女儿甚至没有那么好。
She dropped out of high school.
她从高中退学了。
I never dreamed I would raise a smoker.
我从来没有梦想过我会养育一个吸烟者。
And yet, my baby, Didi, carries a pack of Camels in her purse.
然而，我的宝贝迪迪的钱包里却装着一包骆驼。
I squint at a magazine in the dim kitchen light, but can't concentrate.
我在厨房昏暗的灯光下眯着眼睛看一本杂志，但无法集中注意力。
I take a couple of valerian capsules-- tryptophan is not enough tonight-- and go back to bed.
我吃了几粒缬草胶囊——今晚色氨酸不够了——然后回到床上。
Tomorrow, I'll make a doctor's appointment for Didi to get birth control.
明天，我会为迪迪预约医生进行节育。
When I call the clinic to make an appointment for Didi, the receptionist's tone turns icy when I explain what I want.
当我打电话给诊所预约滴滴时，当我解释我想要什么时，接待员的语气变得冰冷。
She says, neither the doctor nor the nurse practitioner has any openings until May.
她说，直到五月份，医生和执业护士都没有空缺。
It's March.
现在是三月。
I can feel her disapproval through the phone.
隔着电话我都能感受到她的不满。
She seems to be implying that I am encouraging my daughter to have sex by arranging birth control for her, that I should encourage-- no, demand-- abstinence from Didi.
她似乎在暗示我通过为女儿安排节育措施来鼓励她发生性行为，我应该鼓励——不，是要求——戒掉滴滴。
I picture a good mother saying to her daughter, you're too young to have sex.
我想象一位好母亲对她的女儿说，你还太小，不适合做爱。
Don't do it again until you're mature enough for a committed relationship, or better yet, until you're married.
在你成熟到足以建立忠诚的关系之前，或者更好的是，在你结婚之前，不要再这样做。
And the good daughter nods dutifully in agreement, and says, OK, Mom.
好女儿尽职地点点头表示同意，并说：“好的，妈妈。”
It was fun, but you're right.
这很有趣，但你是对的。
We won't have sex anymore.
我们不会再发生性关系了
Didi and I occupy an alternate universe.
我和迪迪生活在另一个宇宙。
In the afternoon, she returns home from school with a single red rose.
下午，她放学回家，手里拿着一朵红玫瑰。
It's from Jack, she says.
她说，这是杰克寄来的。
You know, because.
你知道，因为。
Yeah, I know, I say.
是的，我知道，我说。
Then she pulls from her purse something else that Jack brought her.
然后她从钱包里拿出杰克给她带来的其他东西。
A morning after pill.
服药后的早晨。
I thought you said he pulled out, I scream.
我以为你说他退出了，我尖叫起来。
Not that I think this is a reliable method, but it had provided me with a shred of hope that Didi's first time wouldn't result in a pregnancy.
我并不认为这是一个可靠的方法，但它给了我一丝希望，滴滴的第一次不会导致怀孕。
No, I, I just said that so you wouldn't worry, she said.
不，我，我只是这么说，让你不用担心，她说。
Don't lie, I say.
别说谎，我说。
I can't stand it when you lie.
我无法忍受你说谎。
Nothing ever good comes from a lie.
谎言不会带来任何好处。
He was really concerned.
他真的很担心。
That's why he did that, she continues as she returns the pill to her purse.
这就是他这么做的原因，她一边继续说，一边把药丸放回钱包。
I'm concerned too, I say.
我也很担心，我说。
I would have helped you.
我会帮助你的。
I realize May is too long to wait.
我意识到五月的等待时间太长了。
I phone the doctor's office again.
我再次给医生办公室打电话。
I plead, can't they speed this up somehow?
我恳求他们不能以某种方式加快速度吗？
A much more accommodating receptionist says they can.
一位更加热情的接待员说他们可以。
Less than a week after losing her virginity, Didi is on the pill.
失去童贞后不到一周，迪迪就开始服用避孕药。
Two weeks later, we're in Chicago.
两周后，我们到达了芝加哥。
It's spring break, and Didi has persuaded me to take the train down for some shopping.
春假了，滴滴说服我坐火车下去购物。
Jack and a group of their friends are here.
杰克和他们的一群朋友在这里。
And Didi plans to meet up with them to go to a concert out in the suburbs later tonight.
迪迪计划今晚晚些时候与他们见面，一起去郊区听一场音乐会。
Is it OK, she asks, if it's really late tonight after the concert-- I mean, it shouldn't be.
她问，如果今晚音乐会结束后真的很晚，可以吗？我的意思是，不应该这样。
And Jack could stay with his friends in the suburbs.
杰克可以和他的朋友一起住在郊区。
But then I might have to come back by myself, because I don't know if Lisa and Rachel are going.
但那时我可能必须自己回来，因为我不知道丽莎和雷切尔是否会去。
And they're staying at another hotel anyway.
无论如何，他们住在另一家酒店。
And I was wondering because of that, because I don't really want to come back by myself, and Jack doesn't really know his way back, if he just drops me off, I was wondering if it might be OK if he stays in our room?
因此我就想知道，因为我真的不想自己回来，而杰克也不知道回去的路，如果他只是让我下车，我想知道他留在我们的房间是否可以？
We're having lunch in an Indian restaurant.
我们在一家印度餐厅吃午餐。
And between Didi's tortured syntax and my rice pudding, it takes me a few seconds to fully understand what my teenage daughter is asking me.
在滴滴痛苦的语法和我的米饭布丁之间，我花了几秒钟才完全理解我十几岁的女儿在问我什么。
Um, I don't know, I say.
嗯，我不知道，我说。
I prefer you come back.
我更喜欢你回来。
And I don't want you to travel by yourself at night.
我也不希望你晚上独自旅行。
But, um, I don't know.
但是，嗯，我不知道。
Sometime after midnight, I hear the hotel key card in the door.
午夜过后的某个时候，我听到酒店钥匙卡在门上的声音。
Groggy from a sleeping pill, I'm aware of whispers and movement in the double bed next to mine in the moments before I drift off.
由于服用安眠药而昏昏沉沉，在我入睡前的那一刻，我意识到我旁边的双人床上有窃窃私语和动静。
When I awake the next morning, they are tangled in the blankets, their heads nearly touching.
第二天早上我醒来时，他们在毯子里纠缠在一起，头几乎碰在一起。
Didi's mouth is parted a bit, as it often is in sleep, and Jack's stockinged feet protrude over the edge of the mattress.
迪迪的嘴微微张开，就像睡觉时那样，杰克穿着袜子的脚伸出床垫的边缘。
Two weeks earlier, I was on the verge of a panic attack because Didi and her boyfriend had had sex for the first time.
两周前，我正处于恐慌的边缘，因为迪迪和她的男朋友第一次做爱。
And now we're all sleeping in the same room together?
现在我们都睡在同一个房间里了？
What am I doing?
我在做什么？
I'm the first to admit I don't have a clue.
我是第一个承认我不知道的人。
What I do know is that I can't recall ever looking as happy as my daughter looks right now.
我所知道的是，我不记得曾经像我女儿现在这样快乐过。
I feel a disquieting sense of envy for Didi.
我对滴滴有一种令人不安的嫉妒感。
My husband and I don't even share our queen size bed, and I prefer it that way.
我和我丈夫甚至不共用大号床，但我更喜欢这样。
At 53, Rob is retired, and spends his days consuming vast quantities of beer and napping.
53 岁的罗布退休了，每天都喝大量啤酒并打瞌睡。
He doesn't bother to shower, shave, get his hair cut.
他懒得洗澡、刮胡子、剪头发。
We go months without riding in the same vehicle.
我们好几个月没有乘坐同一辆车。
We do not exchange gifts, or cards even.
我们不交换礼物，甚至不交换卡片。
Maybe it's best we don't do cards.
也许我们最好不做卡片。
It's hard to find one that says, even though I don't love you anymore, happy birthday anyway.
很难找到一个能说“尽管我不再爱你了，但无论如何，生日快乐”的人。
A few weeks later, after we return from Chicago, I'm reading in bed on a summer night when I hear strange noises from Didi's room below.
几周后，我们从芝加哥回来后，一个夏日的夜晚，我正在床上看书，突然听到楼下迪迪的房间里传来奇怪的声音。
When I open her bedroom door, she's cutting the screen out of her side window.
当我打开她卧室的门时，她正在把侧窗上的纱窗剪掉。
"What are you doing?" I ask.
“你在干什么？”我问。
"My mom, I have got to go." She slams her cellphone shut.
“妈妈，我得走了。”她砰的一声关上了手机。
"Uh, um, well, Jack called.
“呃，嗯，好吧，杰克打来电话了。
And he's with his friends.
而且他和他的朋友们在一起。
And um, they wanted to drive around and get drunk.
嗯，他们想开车到处喝醉。
But he doesn't want to.
但他不想。
And his parents are mad at him.
他的父母很生他的气。
But they think he's spending the night with those guys.
但他们认为他正在和那些家伙一起过夜。
So he can't really go home.
所以他真的不能回家。
So I told him he could come here.
所以我告诉他他可以来这里。
But I didn't want to wake anybody up.
但我不想吵醒任何人。
So I figured he could come in the window?"
所以我想他可以从窗户进来？”
"You ruined the screen." I wave my arms in exasperation.
“你把屏幕弄坏了。”我愤怒地挥舞着手臂。
"Why didn't you just say something to me?" "But, um, can he come over?
“你刚才为什么不跟我说句话？” “但是，呃，他能过来吗？
He could be here any minute." I sigh.
他随时都可能在这里。”我叹了口气。
He'd spent the night at the hotel.
他在酒店过夜。
I know they're having sex somewhere.
我知道他们正在某处做爱。
And Didi is on the pill, so I know she won't get pregnant.
迪迪正在服用避孕药，所以我知道她不会怀孕。
What's the harm?
有什么坏处呢？
Making my daughter happy seems closer to right than protecting her virginity or reputation.
让我女儿快乐似乎比保护她的童贞或名誉更正确。
I know that I was raised to be chaste, to put off sex until marriage.
我知道我从小就被要求保持贞洁，把性行为推迟到结婚。
And how did that turn out for me?
我的结果如何？
I had sex atop dorm room bunks and secondhand sofas.
我在宿舍床铺和二手沙发上做爱。
Worried whether I'd be invited to stay the night, felt ashamed the next morning.
担心我是否会被邀请过夜，第二天早上我感到羞愧。
I fawned over the bad boys.
我巴结那些坏孩子。
Now I'm tired and unhappy.
现在我又累又不开心。
Maybe there is another way.
也许还有另一种方法。
OK, I say, listening for sounds of Rob fumbling around upstairs.
好吧，我一边说，一边听着罗布在楼上摸索的声音。
But let him in the front door.
但让他进前门。
Jack becomes a late night regular at our house.
杰克成为我们家的深夜常客。
Even though they barely speak, the tension between Didi and her dad comes to a boil in the week since Jack first began spending the night.
尽管他们几乎不说话，但自从杰克第一次过夜以来，迪迪和她父亲之间的紧张关系在一周内达到了沸点。
She says to me one day, "I can't stand it.
有一天她对我说：“我受不了了。
Can't you leave him now?"
你现在就不能离开他吗？”
Didi wants me to leave Rob, and buy a house near downtown so the three of us-- herself, Mandy, and I-- can get on with our lives.
迪迪希望我离开罗布，在市中心附近买一套房子，这样我们三个人——她自己、曼迪和我——就可以继续我们的生活。
I can't tell her that I don't have the money, that I don't have the energy, that I am afraid of what will become of me, and her, and her sisters.
我不能告诉她我没有钱，我没有精力，我害怕我、她和她的姐妹们会发生什么。
A good mother wouldn't continue to live with a bad father.
一个好母亲不会继续和一个坏父亲生活在一起。
A good mother would never have married someone like Rob in the first place.
一个好母亲一开始就不会嫁给像罗布这样的人。
"I can't stand it here," Didi says, the tears still flowing.
“我无法忍受这里，”迪迪说，泪水仍在流淌。
"I think I need to go back on anti-depressants." All of us, except Rob, the one who needs the most, has been on, or is on, anti-depressants.
“我想我需要重新服用抗抑郁药。”除了最需要的人罗布之外，我们所有人都曾经或正在服用抗抑郁药。
"Take a few of mine." I want to shout, "Snap out of it." "Oh Mom, I just have to get out of this house.
“拿我的几个吧。”我想大喊：“振作起来。” “哦，妈妈，我必须离开这个房子。
Would you please, please let me stay at a hotel tonight with Jack?
请让我今晚和杰克一起住在一家旅馆好吗？
Please?
请问？
I just need to get away."
我只需要离开。”
"A hotel costs a lot of money," I point out.
“住酒店要花很多钱，”我指出。
"I mean, I'd like to go away too, but, I can't do that every time I want." "Just for tonight?" she asks.
“我的意思是，我也想离开，但是，我不能每次都这么做。” “就为了今晚吗？”她问。
"Please.
“拜托。
I just have to get out of here, away from him." She looks in the direction of the living room, where Rob lays on the couch, mouth agape.
我必须离开这里，远离他。”她朝客厅的方向看去，罗布躺在沙发上，张着嘴。
Of course, I want to help her.
当然，我想帮助她。
Indulge her.
纵容她。
I understand her pain.
我理解她的痛苦。
But at the cost of $100 or more?
但要花费 100 美元或更多吗？
"You've spent more than that on hotels for Mandy," she says.
“你为曼迪买旅馆的钱比这个多，”她说。
"It's like, well, like therapy." It's true.
“这就像，嗯，就像治疗。”这是真的。
I've spent a lot sending Mandy to anime conventions around the country, but they were for a purpose.
我花了很多钱送曼迪去参加全国各地的动漫大会，但他们都是有目的的。
Not just because she didn't want to sleep at home.
不仅仅是因为她不想在家睡觉。
And I know responsible mothers would not pay for a night at a hotel for their minor child, with a boyfriend no less.
我知道负责任的母亲不会为自己的未成年孩子支付在酒店过夜的费用，尤其是有男朋友的孩子。
It's unseemly.
这很不体面。
But somehow none of those reasons seem to matter.
但不知何故，这些原因似乎都不重要。
And I agree it could be therapeutic for Didi.
我同意这对滴滴来说可能是一种治疗。
I'm a believer in retreats and getaways to revitalize the spirit.
我坚信静修和度假可以让精神焕发活力。
And I know that Didi will be unrelenting until I finally say yes.
我知道滴滴会毫不留情，直到我最终答应。
I give in.
我屈服了。
"See if you can find a deal on hotwire.com," I say.
“看看能否在 hotwire.com 上找到优惠。”我说。
She throws her arms around me.
她张开双臂拥抱我。
The tears have left damp tracks on her cheeks.
泪水在她的脸颊上留下了湿漉漉的痕迹。
"Thank you, thank you, thank you." And she rushes off to wheel and deal her way into a room at the Holiday Inn.
“谢谢你，谢谢你，谢谢你。”她冲出去开车，走进假日酒店的一个房间。
Because she is 16, I have to check her in.
因为她已经16岁了，所以我必须给她登记。
When we leave the house, I call to Rob, who's still on the sofa, "Didi is staying with a friend tonight.
当我们离开家时，我打电话给仍在沙发上的罗布，“迪迪今晚和一个朋友住在一起。
I'm going to drop her off now." He doesn't have to know the details about this.
我现在就送她下车。”他不需要知道这件事的细节。
Didi snags a room overlooking the indoor pool and courtyard.
Didi 预订了一间俯瞰室内游泳池和庭院的房间。
I stand on its balcony and watch the people dining in the tropical-themed restaurant.
我站在阳台上，看着人们在热带主题餐厅里用餐。
Families playing in the pool, adults soaking in the hot tub, everyone looks happy.
一家人在泳池里玩耍，大人们泡在热水浴缸里，每个人看上去都很开心。
I turn back to the room.
我转身回到房间。
Jack is at work and he'll be along later.
杰克正在工作，他稍后会来。
Didi has invited one of her girlfriends over to go swimming.
迪迪邀请她的一位女朋友来游泳。
While we wait on her, both of us sprawl across the king sized bed.
当我们等待她时，我们俩都躺在特大号床上。
"Comfortable?" I ask and close my eyes.
“舒服的？”我问道并闭上眼睛。
"Yeah, I'll say," she says.
“是的，我会说，”她说。
"Thanks for letting me do this, Mom." I understand why she wanted to come here.
“谢谢你让我这么做，妈妈。”我明白她为什么想来这里。
The windowless room is soothing and anonymous.
没有窗户的房间让人感到舒缓和匿名。
The sliding glass doors face the courtyard, and artificial light spills into the room.
滑动玻璃门面向庭院，人造光洒进房间。
From the pool below, there is the faint aroma of chlorine.
从下面的水池里，传来淡淡的氯气香气。
I don't want to leave.
我不想离开。
I want to crawl under the covers for a long nap.
我想爬到被窝里睡个长长的觉。
Julie Snyder.
朱莉·斯奈德。
Reading an essay sent in to us by a woman who lives in the Midwest.
阅读一位住在中西部的女士寄给我们的一篇文章。
[MUSIC - "TRUST YOUR CHILD" BY PATRIZIA & JIMMY]
[音乐 - PATRIZIA 和 JIMMY 的“相信你的孩子”]
ACT 3, Use Your Words.
第三步，用你的语言。
Well we close today's show with this story from Dan Savage about how to talk to kids, and how his views on the subject have changed pretty radically, how he believes stuff now that he would have found repellent years ago.
好吧，我们以丹·萨维奇的故事结束今天的节目，讲述如何与孩子们交谈，以及他对这个话题的看法如何发生了巨大的变化，以及他现在如何相信几年前他会感到厌恶的东西。
Here's Dan.
这是丹。
In the fall of 1989, I was living in West Berlin and needed a job.
1989 年秋天，我住在西柏林，需要一份工作。
The only one I could find was working as a substitute German teacher at a grade school on the US Army base.
我唯一能找到的就是在美国陆军基地的一所小学担任代课德语老师。
One day, this kid-- this little black haired, black eyed, black hearted boy-- started winding up my worst class, Berlin's fightin' fourth graders, taunting weaker kids, firing paper clips around the room with a rubber band, all the while shooting me looks that said, what are you going to do about it, you pathetic excuse for a German teacher?
有一天，这个孩子——这个黑头发、黑眼睛、黑心的小男孩——开始结束我最糟糕的班级，柏林四年级学生的打斗，嘲笑较弱的孩子，用橡皮筋在房间里发射回形针，同时用眼神看着我，说，你打算怎么做，你对德国老师来说可悲的借口？
I glared.
我瞪了一眼。
I issued idle threats.
我发出了无意义的威胁。
I raised my voice.
我提高了声音。
Nothing worked.
什么都没起作用。
I was on the verge of losing complete control of the classroom.
我正处于完全失去对课堂的控制的边缘。
So I got up, walked over to this kid's desk, and snatched the rubber band out of his hand.
于是我站起来，走到这个孩子的桌子前，从他手里夺走了橡皮筋。
Then I leaned in close so only he could hear me and said, "Knock it the [BEEP] off, you little [BEEP]."
然后我靠得很近，这样只有他能听到我说：“把[嘟嘟]关掉，你这个小[嘟嘟]。”
I said it with the most threateningly murderous tone I could affect.
我用我能做到的最具有威胁性和杀气的语气说这句话。
I wanted this kid to think me capable of anything.
我希望这个孩子认为我有能力做任何事情。
Anything.
任何事物。
It worked, or seemed to.
它起作用了，或者看起来起作用了。
The kid was quiet for the rest of class.
这孩子在剩下的课堂上都很安静。
And I hoped that we had come to an understanding.
我希望我们能够达成谅解。
Then I got summoned to the principal's office ten minutes into my next class.
然后我在下一堂课开始十分钟后被叫到校长办公室。
When I walked in, the black haired kid was standing by his desk.
当我走进去的时候，那个黑头发的孩子正站在他的桌子旁边。
The principal asked me if I had used the f-word in front of this precious child, that I had told this child that he was a piece of s-word.
校长问我是否在这个宝贝孩子面前说了脏话，我告诉这孩子他是个脏话。
Mr. Savage, the principal said, interrupting me before I could answer, "I'm afraid this would be a firing offense, if it were true." I took in the look on the principal's face as I paused to consider my response.
“萨维奇先生，”校长在我回答之前打断了我，“如果这是真的的话，恐怕这将构成开枪罪。”当我停下来考虑我的回答时，我看着校长的表情。
It wasn't an angry look.
那不是生气的表情。
It was a do we understand each other look.
那是一种我们彼此了解的眼神。
I understood.
我明白了。
He didn't want to fire me any more than I wanted to be fired.
他不想解雇我，就像我不想被解雇一样。
If the position of substitute German teacher was easier to fill, he wouldn't have hired me in the first place.
如果德语代课老师的职位更容易填补，他一开始就不会雇用我。
I barely spoke the language.
我几乎不会说这种语言。
"No," I said.
“不，”我说。
"It's not true." "He said it," the kid choked out.
“这不是真的。” “他说的。”孩子哽咽道。
"He did!" The principal leaned back in his chair.
“他做到了！”校长靠在椅子上。
"Or perhaps," the principal said, "it was all a misunderstanding." The principal had us shake hands and then dismissed us together.
“或许，”校长说，“这只是一场误会。”校长让我们握了握手，然后一起送走了。
I wasn't fired.
我没有被解雇。
And, revealingly, the kid wasn't in any trouble.
而且，很明显，这个孩子没有遇到任何麻烦。
The boy shot me a look when we got into the hall.
当我们走进大厅时，男孩看了我一眼。
I knew I lied.
我知道我撒谎了。
He knew I lied.
他知道我撒谎了。
I knew he knew.
我知道他知道。
And we both knew the principal knew.
我们都知道校长知道。
I felt terrible, honestly.
老实说，我感觉很糟糕。
For years later-- long after I forgot what little German I knew-- my mind would occasionally flash to the look on that boy's face.
多年以后——在我忘记了我懂的一点德语很久之后——我的脑海里偶尔会闪现出那个男孩脸上的表情。
That kid was bad.
那个孩子很坏。
But I proved to him that adults are worse.
但我向他证明，成年人更糟糕。
We swear, we lie, we abuse our authority.
我们发誓，我们撒谎，我们滥用权力。
And for years, I had the decency to feel bad about the indecent thing I had done that day.
多年来，我一直有体面地为那天所做的不雅之事感到难过。
But now I don't feel bad about it.
但现在我并不为此感到难过。
Yes, the lying was wrong, I guess.
是的，我想撒谎是错误的。
But telling him to knock it the [BEEP] off?
但告诉他把[哔]声关掉？
He had it coming.
他已经如愿以偿了。
And why do I feel this way?
为什么我会有这样的感觉？
Because I have my own nine year old now.
因为我现在有自己九岁的孩子了。
And I have gone Alec Baldwin on his ass many times.
我也曾多次对亚历克·鲍德温 (Alec Baldwin) 发脾气。
I want to tell you something, OK?
我想告诉你一件事，可以吗？
And I want to leave a message for you right now.
我现在想给你留言。
You have insulted me for the last time.
你最后一次侮辱我了。
In fact, when the phone message the actor left for his daughter was made public, I thought, what's the big deal?
事实上，当演员给女儿留下的电话留言被公开时，我想，有什么大不了的？
Apparently his daughter missed some scheduled phone calls with him.
显然他的女儿错过了一些预定的与他的电话。
You have insulted me.
你侮辱了我。
You don't have the brains, or the decency as a human being.
你没有脑子，也没有做人的尊严。
I don't give a damn that you're 12 years old, or 11 years old, or that you're a child, or that your mother is a thoughtless pain in the ass who doesn't care about what you do, as far as I'm concerned.
就我而言，我才不在乎你是 12 岁还是 11 岁，也不在乎你是个孩子，也不在乎你的母亲是个粗心大意的家伙，根本不关心你做什么。
You have humiliated me for the last time with this phone.
你最后一次用这部手机羞辱我了。
And when I come out there next week, I'm going to fly out there for the day just to straighten you out on this issue.
当我下周到那里时，我会飞去那里，只是为了让你们了解这个问题。
I'm going to let you know just how disappointed in you I am.
我会让你知道我对你有多失望。
Everyone seemed to think that Baldwin losing his temper like that-- and he did lose his temper-- was grounds for denying him visitation rights.
每个人似乎都认为鲍德温那样发脾气——他确实发脾气——是剥夺他探视权的理由。
Baldwin hit the public contrition circuit.
鲍德温进行了公众忏悔。
People were talking about whether or not his career would survive.
人们都在谈论他的职业生涯能否延续。
But I wasn't the only one out there that couldn't understand what all the fuss was about.
但我并不是唯一一个无法理解这些大惊小怪的原因的人。
A lot of people listened to the Baldwin tape and came to the same conclusion I had.
很多人听了鲍德温的磁带并得出了与我相同的结论。
No. Big.
不，大。
Deal.
交易。
Who were these people?
这些人是谁？
Parents.
父母。
Parents like me.
父母都喜欢我。
We didn't speak up then because we were afraid.
当时我们没有说话，因为我们害怕。
We were cowards, thoughtless cowards, without the brains or the decency of human beings.
我们是胆小鬼，没有思想的胆小鬼，没有人类的大脑和正派。
Only after the Baldwin scandal blew over, did we parents slowly and carefully begin to check in with each other and confide in each other.
直到鲍德温丑闻曝光后，我们父母才慢慢地、小心翼翼地开始互相了解、互相倾诉。
That wasn't so bad, right?
那还不错，对吧？
I've said worse things, haven't you?
我已经说过更糟糕的话了，不是吗？
I'm sorry we weren't there for you, Alec.
很抱歉我们没有在你身边，亚历克。
So you better be ready Friday, the 20th, to meet with me.
所以你最好准备好 20 号星期五与我见面。
So I'm going to let you know just how I feel about what a rude little pig you really are.
所以我要让你知道我对你到底是多么粗鲁的小猪的感受。
You are a rude, thoughtless little pig.
你是一只粗鲁、没有思想的小猪。
Oh yes, I have.
哦，是的，我有。
Yeah.
是的。
I yell all the time at my kids.
我总是对我的孩子大喊大叫。
John is a stay at home dad with three boys and a girl.
约翰是一位全职爸爸，有三个男孩和一个女孩。
My son, DJ, plays with John's kids.
我的儿子 DJ 和约翰的孩子们一起玩耍。
I caught John on the phone while his younger children were napping.
我发现约翰在打电话，而他的孩子们正在午睡。
What was your reaction when you heard the Alec Baldwin tape?
当你听到亚历克·鲍德温的磁带时，你的反应是什么？
Just what he actually said, out of context, seems incredibly benign.
他实际上所说的话，脱离了上下文，看起来非常友善。
It seems like a typical tirade by a typical parent.
这似乎是典型父母的典型长篇大论。
I talked to other parents, but they all said the same thing.
我和其他家长谈过，但他们都说了同样的话。
They've said worse.
他们说的更糟。
They've lost it.
他们已经失去了它。
Someone told me recently about one father-- a loving father, a good father-- who told his son, "I could kill you, and make another one, just like you."
最近有人告诉我，有一位父亲——一位慈爱的父亲，一位好父亲——他告诉他的儿子，“我可以杀了你，然后再造一个，就像你一样。”
Alissa is the mother of two kids.
艾丽莎是两个孩子的母亲。
A son, and a daughter the same age as Alec Baldwin's daughter.
一个儿子和一个女儿，与亚历克·鲍德温的女儿同龄。
And please note my technique here.
请注意我的技巧。
I draw the interview subject out by refusing to let her get a word in edgewise.
我拒绝让她插话，从而引出了采访主题。
Because when I heard that, I thought of all the times I've-- you know, we live in a two-story house.
因为当我听到这个消息时，我想起了我一直以来——你知道，我们住在一栋两层楼的房子里。
I thought of all the times I have barked up the stairs, "Don't make me come up there." Which sounds like, if I come up there, I'm going to throw you through a wall.
我想起我每次在楼梯上咆哮的情景：“别让我上楼。”这听起来就像，如果我到那里，我就会把你扔到墙上。
And I want it to sound like that, a little bit.
我希望它听起来像那样，一点点。
Like I, as a father, try to affect that tone, because it's kind of all I got.
就像我，作为一个父亲，试图影响这种语气，因为这就是我所拥有的一切。
You can't hit him.
你不能打他。
Well, absolutely.
嗯，绝对是。
Dan Savage You really can't hit him.
丹·萨维奇（Dan Savage）：你真的打不到他。
No. No, you can't hit them.
不，不，你不能打他们。
It's not fair.
这不公平。
It's not a fair fight.
这不是一场公平的战斗。
And so sometimes I feel trapped, like the only way I can communicate my intense displeasure, and also, to my kid, how far he's pushed it, and that he might not want to push it that far with me, or other adults, or strangers on the street, is by sounding like I'm going to kill him.
所以有时我感到被困住了，就像我能向我的孩子传达我强烈的不满的唯一方式，而且，对我的孩子来说，他已经把它推到了多远，他可能不想和我、其他成年人或街上的陌生人一起推得那么远，就是听起来我要杀了他。
Physically, like I'm going to take his little neck in my hands and choke the life out of him.
从身体上来说，就像我要用双手掐住他的小脖子，掐死他的生命。
And so I feel like, oh my God, if somebody was walking down the street, and they heard the tone of my voice, and what I just said, they'd call the police.
所以我觉得，天哪，如果有人走在街上，他们听到我的语气和我刚才说的话，他们就会报警。
Of course.
当然。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Well you know, I have had my children, when they were smaller, behave so badly at the playground.
嗯，你知道，我的孩子们小的时候，在操场上表现得非常糟糕。
I was so angry at them.
我对他们很生气。
They were walking ahead of me, going home down the sidewalk.
他们走在我前面，沿着人行道回家。
And I was walking behind them, giving them the finger behind their heads.
我走在他们身后，用手指指着他们的头。
And I'm sure people looked at me and thought, oh my God, take that woman's children away.
我确信人们看着我并想，天哪，把那个女人的孩子带走吧。
And I do feel like really yelling can be really cathartic.
我确实觉得大喊大叫确实可以起到宣泄作用。
And you know what?
你知道吗？
It scares the crap out of them.
这可把他们吓坏了。
When I yell at my kids-- which I don't do that much-- their eyes get enormous.
当我对我的孩子们大喊大叫时——我不常这样做——他们的眼睛会变得很大。
They can tell how furious you are.
他们可以看出你有多愤怒。
My children have said to me, you have no idea how terrifying you are when you're angry.
我的孩子们对我说，你不知道当你生气的时候你有多可怕。
You're so much scarier than Daddy.
你比爸爸还可怕。
And I thought well, you know what?
我想，你知道吗？
Good, good.
好，好。
I've cultivated that.
我已经培养了这一点。
But I feel-- you know, listening to the tape, listening to Alec Baldwin, thinking about the times I've blown up in a similar way at my kid, I feel like, please don't take this away from me.
但我觉得——你知道，听着磁带，听着亚历克·鲍德温，想想我对我的孩子以类似的方式发脾气的时候，我觉得，请不要把它从我身边夺走。
Because he has to understand that there are limits, that you can push someone too far.
因为他必须明白，事情是有限制的，你可以把某人逼得太远。
And he has to learn that.
他必须学会这一点。
And if I can teach him that just through volume, maybe he won't get beat up by a cop one day.
如果我能通过音量教他这一点，也许有一天他就不会被警察殴打了。
I believe that.
我相信这一点。
I feel that way all the time, especially with my son.
我一直有这样的感觉，尤其是和我儿子在一起。
My impression of kids-- having been a parent, lo, these ten years now-- is that kids are sociopaths until you beat it out of them.
我对孩子的印象——我已经为人父母了，瞧，这十年了——是孩子们都是反社会者，除非你打败他们。
Metaphorically, beat it out of them.
打个比方，把他们打败。
All children start out as sociopaths.
所有的孩子一开始都是反社会者。
They all have to be civilized, as you said.
正如你所说，他们都必须文明。
And the only tool we have to do that with is language.
而我们要做到这一点的唯一工具就是语言。
Yeah.
是的。
Or taking things away from them.
或者拿走他们的东西。
Without that, without really giving them real limits, you can't expect them to behave.
如果没有这一点，没有真正给他们真正的限制，你就不能指望他们表现得好。
How are they supposed to know what to do?
他们怎么知道该做什么？
They're like little aliens dropped here, naked, no money, nothing.
他们就像被扔在这里的小外星人，赤身裸体，没有钱，什么都没有。
If anything, with the removal of violence from the parenting arsenal, we've had to ramp up the screaming, and yelling, and profanity.
如果说有什么不同的话，那就是，随着育儿武器中暴力的消除，我们不得不加大尖叫、大喊大叫和脏话的力度。
It soaks up the energy and anger that might otherwise have gone into a clean, quick, smack.
它吸收了能量和愤怒，否则这些能量和愤怒可能会变成干净、快速的打击。
My son, DJ, turned nine last March.
我的儿子 DJ 去年三月已经九岁了。
He just started the fourth grade.
他刚上四年级。
He can be a handful.
他可能是少数。
And every once in a while his teacher has to reign him in.
每隔一段时间，他的老师就必须管束他。
I don't expect that DJ's fourth grade teacher would ever swear at him the way I swore at that kid in Berlin.
我没想到 DJ 的四年级老师会像我在柏林骂那个孩子那样骂他。
I was an inexperienced, untrained substitute.
我是一个缺乏经验、未经训练的替补。
She's a pro.
她是一名职业选手。
But knowing what I know now about kids, if DJ's teacher ever reaches the breaking point, if she ever leans in close and whispers, "Knock it the [BEEP] off," just loud enough for DJ to hear, I'd back her up.
但据我现在对孩子们的了解，如果 DJ 的老师达到了极限，如果她靠近并低声说：“把[BEEP]关掉，”声音足够 DJ 听到，我会支持她。
Because however bad he can be, DJ needs to understand that she, that all adults, can be much, much worse.
因为无论 DJ 有多糟糕，他都需要明白，她，所有成年人，都可能变得更糟糕。
Dan Savage is the author of several books and host of the fantastically enjoyable Savage Love podcasts, which you can find on the internet with a Google search, Savage Love podcast.
丹·萨维奇 (Dan Savage) 是多本书的作者，也是非常有趣的 Savage Love 播客的主持人，您可以通过 Google 搜索在互联网上找到 Savage Love 播客。
Or go to the iTunes store.
或者前往 iTunes 商店。
OK, they rub up against each other, but then how does that little fish get inside her body?
好吧，它们互相摩擦，但是那条小鱼是怎么进入她体内的呢？
And I would think of it as a little fish, because you see it on the movie.
我会认为它是一条小鱼，因为你在电影中看到它。
And so how does it get inside her body?
那么它是如何进入她的身体的呢？
You know, it's just so confusing and vague.
你知道，这实在是太令人困惑和模糊了。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week, with more stories of This American life.
下周我们将带来更多有关“美国生活”的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。