340: The Devil in Me - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #340 | September 5, 2008 340: The Devil in Me Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 340 集 | 2008 年 9 月 5 日 340：我体内的魔鬼 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass My wife and I are standing at the door to our place, and we're arguing.
序言 Ira Glass 我和我的妻子站在我们家门口，我们正在争论。
A delivery guy has arrived with something, and it's early morning, and I hold the dog and I ask her to go to the door.
一个送货员带着东西来了，现在是清晨，我抱着狗，让她到门口去。
And she doesn't want to go to the door because of the way that she's dressed.
而且她不想去门口，因为她的穿着方式。
And I insist, no, no, no, no. It's fine.
我坚持说，不，不，不，不。没关系。
And we go around on this for a while, and the guy's at the door and I don't give in and she finally goes to the door.
我们就这个问题讨论了一段时间，那个人在门口，我没有屈服，她终于走到了门口。
And then the guy leaves, and she's mad, and she cannot understand why I made her do that.
然后那个人离开了，她很生气，她不明白我为什么让她这么做。
And finally, I look at her, and I see what it is that she's talking about.
最后，我看着她，我明白她在说什么。
She's in an undershirt and pajama bottoms.
她穿着背心和睡裤。
And I see why she wouldn't want to go to the door.
我明白她为什么不愿意走到门口了。
I see it.
我看到了。
I see it.
我看到了。
But what I say is, "That shirt's not so revealing." This just comes out of me, without thinking.
但我想说的是，“那件衬衫没那么暴露。”这只是我的想法，没有思考。
A complete lie.
完全是谎言。
And she says, you know, this is that thing you do.
她说，你知道，这就是你要做的事。
This is that the thing right here.
这就是这里的事情。
You can't admit when you did something wrong, which she is totally right about.
当你做错事时你无法承认，而她对此是完全正确的。
She's so right, in fact, that I still don't admit it.
事实上，她说得太对了，我仍然不承认。
Though, to describe it this way makes it seem like I'm actually doing a computation in my head and thinking things through and weighing things out.
不过，以这种方式描述它，看起来就像我实际上在脑子里进行计算，仔细思考并权衡事情一样。
Should I admit it?
我应该承认吗？
Should I not admit it?
难道我不应该承认吗？
And then I conclude, no. No, don't do it, don't admit it, don't give in.
然后我得出结论，不。不，不要这样做，不要承认，不要屈服。
But, in fact, all this happens in an instant in my head.
但事实上，这一切都在我脑海中瞬间发生。
It's like lightning.
就像闪电一样。
There's no thought at all.
根本就没有什么想法。
I say, no, no, no, the shirt's fine, I don't see a problem.
我说，不，不，不，这件衬衫很好，我不认为有什么问题。
And then she points out that it's crazy-making, living with me.
然后她指出和我住在一起太疯狂了。
That if I could just admit that I did something wrong at the beginning, her life would be so much better.
如果我能承认自己一开始就做错了事，她的生活就会好得多。
This happens all the time.
这种情况经常发生。
Part of getting older, I think, is learning that you do these things, without thinking, that you are not proud of.
我认为，变老的一部分就是认识到你不假思索地做了这些你并不感到自豪的事情。
I have a list.
我有一个清单。
I interrupt people, I snap at people, I get a condescending, know-it-all tone sometimes without even knowing I'm doing it.
我打断别人的话，对别人厉声斥责，有时甚至在不知道自己在这么做的情况下，我会发出一种居高临下、无所不知的语气。
I fake laugh at stuff I don't find funny, because I'm only half listening.
我对那些我觉得不好笑的事情假装笑，因为我只听了一半。
And while I'm self-absorbed enough to do all that, unfortunately I am not so self-absorbed that I don't notice the look on other people's faces and realize what I've done.
虽然我足够以自我为中心去做这一切，但不幸的是，我并没有那么自我中心，以至于没有注意到别人脸上的表情，也没有意识到我做了什么。
This is a very bad middle ground to be in.
这是一个非常糟糕的中间立场。
You know, if I were more sensitive, I wouldn't be doing these things in the first place.
你知道，如果我更敏感的话，我一开始就不会做这些事情。
And if I was less sensitive, I wouldn't notice what an ass I am, which would be less painful, for me.
如果我不那么敏感，我就不会注意到我是个混蛋，这对我来说就不那么痛苦了。
Most of us have these things, these little devils inside of us that we're fighting against.
我们大多数人都有这些东西，这些我们内心的小恶魔，我们正在与之对抗。
And some of the devils aren't so little.
而且有些恶魔的规模可不小。
You know?
你知道？
Sometimes you're spending your life fighting one of these devils and then you become president of the United States, and somehow end up messing around with an intern, which ruins your presidency and possibly, depending on how you see it, leads to the election of a guy who sends our nation into what becomes a very unpopular war.
有时，你一生都在与这些恶魔作斗争，然后你成为美国总统，不知何故最终与一名实习生混在一起，这毁了你的总统职位，并且可能，取决于你如何看待它，导致一个人当选，他将我们的国家带入一场非常不受欢迎的战争。
Well, that's the subject of today's radio program.
嗯，这就是今天广播节目的主题。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life , distributed by Public Radio International.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today we have stories of people for whom fighting the devils inside them, it became the biggest struggle of their lives.
今天，我们看到一些人们与内心的恶魔作斗争的故事，这成为他们一生中最大的斗争。
In Act One, a guy goes to extraordinary lengths to rid himself of certain feelings, feelings of prejudice, feelings of bigotry, that he's having and finds he cannot control.
在第一幕中，一个人竭尽全力摆脱他所拥有的某些感觉，偏见的感觉，偏执的感觉，但发现他无法控制。
In Act Two, we let the devils inside people's heads speak, en masse, here on the radio.
在第二幕中，我们让人们头脑中的魔鬼在广播中集体发言。
In Act Three, a man starts off by battling certain doubts in his head, and ends up in a real biblical stand-off with a demon who shows up one day in his college classroom.
在第三幕中，一个男人首先与自己头脑中的某些疑虑作斗争，最后与有一天出现在他大学教室里的恶魔陷入了一场真正的圣经对峙。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act one, And So We Meet Again.
第一幕，所以我们又见面了。
So let's say you find yourself bothered by some very extreme and unreasonable things knocking around in your head.
假设你发现自己被一些非常极端和不合理的事情在你的脑海中萦绕而烦恼。
Maybe you try to fix that by doing something extreme.
也许你试图通过做一些极端的事情来解决这个问题。
Lisa Pollak has the story of one guy who did just that.
丽莎·波拉克（Lisa Pollak）讲述了一个这样做的人的故事。
We first broadcast her story a year ago.
我们一年前首次播出她的故事。
Last winter, if you happened to be watching the campus TV station at Parkland College in Champaign, Illinois, you might have seen this.
去年冬天，如果你碰巧在伊利诺伊州尚佩恩帕克兰学院的校园电视台上观看，你可能会看到这个。
Happy Holidays from the Parkland College Business Club.
帕克兰学院商业俱乐部祝您节日快乐。
Come join us.
快来加入我们吧。
Lisa Pollak A video montage of Season's Greetings from campus clubs and departments.
丽莎·波拉克 (Lisa Pollak) 校园俱乐部和部门的节日问候视频剪辑。
Happy Holidays from the Occupational Therapy Assistant Program.
职业治疗助理计划节日快乐。
And if you couldn't pull yourself away, you'd eventually get to this.
如果你无法摆脱自己，你最终就会陷入困境。
Two guys, one slight and bearded, with dark skin speaking Arabic.
两个人，一个身材瘦小，留着胡子，皮肤黝黑，说阿拉伯语。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Lisa Pollak And the other, a tall, broad shouldered white guy with the translation.
[说阿拉伯语] 丽莎·波拉克 (Lisa Pollak) 另一个是一位身材高大、肩膀宽阔的白人，负责翻译。
Greetings from the Muslim Student Association at Parkland College.
来自帕克兰学院穆斯林学生协会的问候。
We want to wish you and everyone else a happy Holiday season.
我们祝您和其他人节日快乐。
The second guy, the one speaking English, that's Sam Slaven.
第二个人，那个说英语的人，是萨姆·斯拉文（Sam Slaven）。
And what he doesn't say in the video is that even though he's in the Muslim Student Association, he's not a Muslim.
他在视频中没有说的是，尽管他是穆斯林学生会的成员，但他不是穆斯林。
He doesn't want to be a Muslim.
他不想成为穆斯林。
In fact, not so long ago, he couldn't stand to be in the same room with Muslims.
事实上，不久前，他还无法忍受与穆斯林共处一室。
The idea of Sam joining the Muslim Student Association was so improbable that even some of the people who knew him best thought he was kidding when he first told them about it.
萨姆加入穆斯林学生协会的想法是如此不可能，以至于当他第一次告诉他们这件事时，即使是一些最了解他的人也认为他在开玩笑。
It's not a choice anybody would expect from a guy who use words like this to describe Muslims--
任何人都不会期望一个用这样的词来描述穆斯林的人会做出这样的选择——
You know, we call them Haji or raghead or camel jockey.
你知道，我们称他们为哈吉（Haji）、衣衫褴褛的人或骆驼骑师。
All kinds of things.
各种各样的事情。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't think most of them make your cut here.
我认为他们中的大多数人都不适合你。
Mother [BLEEP], you know.
妈妈[哔]，你知道。
[BLEEP].
[哔]。
To understand home Sam went from being that guy to the guy extending Seasons Greetings on behalf of the Muslim Student Association, and then even becoming friends, real friends, with the bearded guy in that video, you have to go back a few years to the first place Sam ever really learned about Muslims.
要了解萨姆从那个人到代表穆斯林学生会向家人致以节日问候，甚至与视频中那个留着胡子的家伙成为朋友，真正的朋友，你必须回到几年前萨姆第一次真正了解穆斯林的地方。
It wasn't Parkland College.
这不是帕克兰学院。
It was Iraq.
那是伊拉克。
Sam's from Indiana.
山姆来自印第安纳州。
After high school, he enrolled at Purdue.
高中毕业后，他就读于普渡大学。
But college wasn't for him back then, so he dropped out and joined the Army.
但当时大学并不适合他，所以他退学参军。
When he was sent to Baghdad in 2003, at the start of the war, he was Sergeant Sam Slaven, of the 2nd Armored Calvary.
2003 年战争开始时，他被派往巴格达，当时他是第二装甲部队的萨姆·斯拉文中士。
He didn't know much about the people in Iraq, or their religion, but he knew he wanted to help them.
他对伊拉克人民或他们的宗教不太了解，但他知道他想帮助他们。
And, at first, it seemed like they wanted that, too.
起初，他们似乎也想要这样。
In fact, listening to Sam describe the early days of the invasion, I realized I'd forgotten that scenes like this ever existed.
事实上，听萨姆描述入侵的初期，我意识到我已经忘记了这样的场景曾经存在过。
Nobody shooting at us.
没有人向我们开枪。
They were just, you know, happy to see us, glad to be there.
你知道，他们只是很高兴见到我们，很高兴能在那里。
They'd bring tea out for us and sit and socialize.
他们会为我们端上茶，然后坐下来进行社交活动。
We even had one family bake us a cake.
我们甚至还有一个家庭给我们烤了一个蛋糕。
After a few months of that treatment, it's no wonder that when Sam came under fire for the first time, outside a power station he was guarding, he was truly surprised.
经过几个月的治疗，难怪当萨姆第一次在他所守卫的发电站外受到攻击时，他真的感到很惊讶。
It just didn't make sense to have somebody right there shooting at us.
有人在那里向我们开枪是没有意义的。
And I was just like, this is ridiculous.
我当时想，这太荒谬了。
What are you doing?
你在干什么？
Because, you know, I'm going to have to shoot back.
因为，你知道，我将不得不反击。
And, you know, we did.
而且，你知道，我们做到了。
As the insurgency got going, so did Sam's piecemeal education in Islam.
随着叛乱的进行，萨姆零碎的伊斯兰教教育也随之而来。
His unit was stationed in Sadr City, where the cleric Muqtada al-Sadr was building his own militia.
他的部队驻扎在萨德尔市，教士穆克塔达·萨德尔正在那里建立自己的民兵。
And translators told the soldiers, Iraqis were being urged to, quote, "Kill the infidels."
翻译告诉士兵们，伊拉克人被敦促引用“杀死异教徒”的话。
And I guess we were the infidels, or whatever, so it seemed like the Imams telling the people that just kind of influenced everybody to go ahead and conduct those actions against us.
我想我们是异教徒，或者其他什么，所以看起来伊玛目告诉人们这只是影响了每个人继续对我们采取这些行动。
And we were pretty upset, just at Islam because their leaders were the ones telling them to do that.
我们对伊斯兰教感到非常沮丧，因为他们的领导人告诉他们这样做。
At least that's what we were told.
至少我们是这么被告知的。
Then came the day that changed things for a lot of guys in Sam's unit.
然后有一天，萨姆所在部队的很多人都发生了改变。
On October 9, 2003, his platoon was out on patrol.
2003年10月9日，他所在的排外出巡逻。
On a nearby street, another platoon from the unit drove straight into an ambush.
在附近的一条街道上，该部队的另一个排径直驶入埋伏区。
They were lured in by a woman and child pretending they needed help.
他们被一名妇女和儿童引诱进来，假装需要帮助。
They stopped to help them and a couple of the privates saw people running with guns, and then just everything let loose.
他们停下来帮助他们，几个列兵看到有人拿着枪跑，然后一切都放松了。
IEDs, RPGs, and rifles and machine guns and just so many, so many guns going off all at once.
简易爆炸装置、火箭弹、步枪和机关枪，太多太多的枪同时响起。
And I'd never even seen anything like it in a war movie.
我什至从未在战争电影中看过类似的东西。
It was literally a wall of red just moving from left to right and right to left.
它实际上是一堵从左到右、从右到左移动的红墙。
With all these bullets and the crossfiring.
伴随着所有这些子弹和交火。
And, of course, we weren't armored.
当然，我们没有装甲。
We didn't even have doors on our vehicles.
我们的车甚至没有门。
There was nothing we could do.
我们无能为力。
We could have stand there and traded fire with them all day long, but, you know, just the numbers.
我们可以整天站在那里与他们交火，但是，你知道，只是数字。
There's no way we would have survived.
我们不可能活下来。
It was just terrifying.
太可怕了。
We weren't in the worst part of the whole thing, but it was still the scariest thing I've ever seen, probably ever will see.
我们并没有处于整个事情中最糟糕的部分，但这仍然是我见过的、可能会看到的最可怕的事情。
Two guys from Sam's unit were killed that night.
那天晚上，萨姆所在部队的两名人员被杀。
And the Americans felt betrayed.
美国人感到被背叛了。
The ambush was so big that plenty of the locals must have known about it, but no one, not any of the people they'd been trying to help, had warned them.
这次伏击规模如此之大，以至于很多当地人肯定都知道这件事，但没有人，包括他们一直试图帮助的任何人，警告过他们。
After that, Sam says, he could never really look at Iraqis the same way.
萨姆说，从那以后，他再也不能以同样的方式看待伊拉克人了。
I mean, just from that point, we were just like, you know, we ought to just kill all these people, just to be safe.
我的意思是，从那时起，我们就想，你知道，我们应该杀死所有这些人，只是为了安全。
Instead of saying hello to them, you tell them, F you, or some sort of insult.
你不是向他们打招呼，而是告诉他们“F you”，或者某种侮辱。
We knew plenty of them in their own language there, and had no problems talking about them, or their mothers or whatever.
我们在那里用他们自己的语言认识了很多人，并且可以毫无问题地谈论他们，或者他们的母亲或其他什么。
It was a two-way street there.
那里是一条双向街道。
They hated us more and we hated them more.
他们更恨我们，我们也更恨他们。
The feeling really was shared throughout our unit.
我们整个单位确实都有这种感觉。
One day I walked in and we had a TV and DVD player set up.
有一天，我走进去，我们已经准备好了一台电视和 DVD 播放机。
There was this group of privates, they're all great kids, and they were yelling and cheering and I was, like, what is this?
有一群二等兵，他们都是很棒的孩子，他们大喊大叫，欢呼雀跃，我就想，这是什么？
They kept rewinding part of this movie, and they'd just keep playing it.
他们不断倒带这部电影的一部分，然后继续播放。
It was from the movie Rules of Engagement , where Samuel L.
这是电影《交战规则》中的一段话，塞缪尔·L.
Jackson tells some marines, waste 'em, and all the guys open up on this crowd of Arabs and just kills everybody in it.
杰克逊告诉一些海军陆战队员，浪费他们，所有这些家伙都向这群阿拉伯人敞开心扉，杀死了其中的所有人。
And they'd yell and cheer and rewind it and watch it again and just rewind it.
他们会大喊大叫，欢呼雀跃，然后倒带，再看一遍，然后倒带。
Because it's what they wanted to do.
因为这是他们想做的。
Oh yeah.
哦，是的。
Lisa Pollak It's not what he did do, Sam told me, and I want to be clear about that.
丽莎·波拉克：山姆告诉我，这不是他所做的，我想澄清这一点。
I spoke to an officer who was one of Sam's superiors back then, and he vouched for Sam's conduct, his adherence to the rules of engagement, the real ones, not the Hollywood ones.
我和一位军官交谈过，他当时是山姆的上级之一，他为山姆的行为、他对交战规则的遵守、真实的规则，而不是好莱坞的规则提供了担保。
Sam's feelings didn't go away when he got back to the States.
当萨姆回到美国时，他的感受并没有消失。
If anything, they festered.
如果说有什么不同的话，那就是它们溃烂了。
When his year in Iraq was up, he was assigned to an Army recruiting battalion, and stationed in Miami.
当他在伊拉克的任期结束时，他被分配到陆军征兵营，驻扎在迈阿密。
Which sounds like a nice change of pace for a guy fresh from a war zone, but it wasn't.
对于一个刚从战区回来的人来说，这听起来像是一个不错的节奏变化，但事实并非如此。
Because I was in south Florida, it looked a lot like around Baghdad, where we were.
因为我在佛罗里达州南部，所以看起来很像我们所在的巴格达周围。
It had the palm trees and the canals and it was hot.
那里有棕榈树和运河，而且很热。
And between my apartment and recruiting station, there was a mosque.
在我的公寓和招募站之间有一座清真寺。
I'd see that and I could physically feel myself tense up.
当我看到这一点时，我会感到自己身体紧张。
My heart would start pounding, and just make me angry.
我的心开始狂跳，这让我很生气。
It's like, oh, I've got to watch out for this place because they're going to run out of that place with guns and just shoot me up.
就像，哦，我必须小心这个地方，因为他们会拿着枪从那个地方跑出来然后开枪射杀我。
And when you would see people go into the mosque?
你什么时候会看到人们进入清真寺？
Well, yeah, I was just like, maybe we should copy down some license plate numbers.
嗯，是的，我当时想，也许我们应该记下一些车牌号码。
Which, it's the same thing we were doing in Iraq.
这和我们在伊拉克做的事情是一样的。
Just keep an eye out on these people, see where they're going.
只要留意这些人，看看他们要去哪里。
I had just become more angry.
我只是变得更生气了。
And I'd talk to other soldiers in my station, but none of them had ever been to Iraq.
我会和我驻地的其他士兵交谈，但他们都没有去过伊拉克。
I'd be like, you know, don't you think we ought to watch out for these people?
我会想，你知道，你不认为我们应该提防这些人吗？
Thinking, hey, man, these people are out to get us.
我想，嘿，伙计，这些人是来抓我们的。
But nobody else is seeing this but me.
但除了我之外，没有人看到这一点。
Sam began to have nightmares and trouble sleeping, and other symptoms of PTSD, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.
山姆开始做噩梦、睡眠困难，以及创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）的其他症状。
We've all heard of PTSD, but we don't usually hear the details of what it actually feels like to have it.
我们都听说过创伤后应激障碍，但我们通常不会听到它的实际感受的细节。
Falling apart isn't something soldiers brag about.
崩溃并不是士兵们可以吹嘘的事情。
But once, at the end of an interview, I asked Sam if he ever hit bottom, and he said yes.
但有一次，在采访结束时，我问萨姆他是否曾经跌入谷底，他说是的。
I was sitting in my recruiting office, and I was sitting in the far back, and a new recruiter, even newer than I was, they had him up front practicing his little speeches he's supposed to give there on all of us recruiters.
我坐在我的招聘办公室里，坐在最后面，一个新的招聘人员，甚至比我还新，他们让他在前面练习他应该对我们所有招聘人员发表的简短演讲。
He hadn't been to Iraq, but he was giving a speech on how not bad Iraq was.
他没有去过伊拉克，但他正在发表演讲，讲述伊拉克的情况并不糟糕。
I was just sitting in the back of the room and I was like, I just can't take this, knowing that we're lying to these kids, we're training people to lie to these kids.
我只是坐在房间的后面，我想，我无法接受这个，因为我知道我们在对这些孩子撒谎，我们正在训练人们对这些孩子撒谎。
And I just left the office, went into the small storage area there and just sat down and I just broke down.
我刚离开办公室，走进那里的小储藏区，坐下来，我就崩溃了。
I was crying, I couldn't take it.
我哭了，我无法接受。
And a female recruiter came in, asked me, what's wrong?
一位女招聘人员进来，问我，怎么了？
And I was like, I just can't take this any more.
我当时想，我再也受不了了。
I just had to go home and just quit.
我只好回家并退出。
And that's totally unacceptable in the Army, and even more unacceptable in recruiting.
这在陆军中是完全不可接受的，在征兵方面更不可接受。
Really, if anything, I was doing recruiting a favor just because how many people are going to come in and join the Army when they see another recruiter, the only war vet in there, crying because he can't stand the war anymore?
真的，如果有的话，我在招募一个人情，只是因为有多少人会进来加入军队，当他们看到另一个招募人员，那里唯一的战争老兵，因为他再也无法忍受战争而哭泣？
After that day, Sam got help.
那天之后，萨姆得到了帮助。
He started treatment for PTSD, retired from the Army, moved to Champaign, where he had family.
他开始治疗创伤后应激障碍，从军队退役，搬到了尚佩恩，在那里他有家人。
And in May 2006, at age 28, started classes at Parkland, a community college.
2006 年 5 月，28 岁的他开始在 Parkland 社区学院上课。
But Sam was still struggling.
但萨姆仍在挣扎。
And to help me understand some of what he was going through, Sam gave me permission to talk to his VA therapist.
为了帮助我了解他正在经历的一些事情，萨姆允许我与他的退伍军人管理局治疗师交谈。
His name is Tim Kohlbecker.
他的名字叫蒂姆·科尔贝克。
He runs a PTSD clinic serving veterans in Illinois and parts of Indiana.
他经营着一家创伤后应激障碍诊所，为伊利诺伊州和印第安纳州部分地区的退伍军人提供服务。
And he explained what can happen to soldiers in combat this way.
他以这种方式解释了士兵在战斗中会发生什么。
Imagine you're in a room with 10 identical chairs.
想象一下你在一个有 10 张相同椅子的房间里。
You're told to sit in one of them, and you get an electric shock.
你被告知坐在其中一个里，然后你就会触电。
The next day, you're told to sit in the same chair again, and you get shocked again.
第二天，你被告知再次坐在同一张椅子上，你再次感到震惊。
The third day, you wise up.
第三天，你就醒悟了。
You're not sitting in that chair anymore.
你不再坐在那张椅子上了。
I say, how about one of these other chairs?
我说，其他一把椅子怎么样？
And you're looking around at those and you're thinking, no, no. They may all be wired up.
当你环顾四周时，你会想，不，不。它们可能都已连线。
Because they all look exactly the same as the chair?
因为它们看起来都和椅子一模一样？
They all look the same.
他们看起来都一样。
It all seems the same.
一切看起来都一样。
It's the same thing.
这是同样的事情。
So you've developed a fear of all of them.
所以你已经对他们所有人产生了恐惧。
Well, that happens with somebody in a combat situation, where you are on full alert all the time.
嗯，这种情况发生在处于战斗状态的人身上，你始终保持高度警惕。
You never know who the enemy is.
你永远不知道敌人是谁。
You don't know when they're going to pop up.
你不知道它们什么时候会出现。
So you develop an anxiety, or a fear, or an avoidance of all.
所以你会产生焦虑、恐惧或回避一切。
Sam's college campus wasn't exactly a hotbed of Arab and Muslim culture.
萨姆的大学校园并不是阿拉伯和穆斯林文化的温床。
But for Sam, it didn't take much.
但对于山姆来说，这并不需要太多。
Just the site of an Arab man in a beard could trigger his anxiety.
仅仅一个留着胡子的阿拉伯男人的位置就能引发他的焦虑。
I was just like, oh, man, there's Muslims everywhere.
我当时就想，哦，伙计，到处都是穆斯林。
If I saw one of them, I would just walk the other way, find another way to get to wherever I was going to.
如果我看到他们中的一个，我就会走另一条路，找到另一条路去我要去的地方。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, because I wasn't sure if I got too close to the guy, what would happen?
是的，因为我不确定如果我离那个家伙太近，会发生什么？
One day he almost did get too close.
有一天，他差一点就离得太近了。
In the hallway of a campus building, he spotted this guy, Middle-Eastern looking, with a long beard.
在校园大楼的走廊里，他发现了这个中东人长相、留着长胡子的家伙。
As I saw him there and I thought, oh, man, there's another one of them.
当我在那里看到他时，我想，哦，伙计，还有另一个人。
And it's just like an instantaneous rush of anxiety and adrenaline, and I was like what do I do?
就像焦虑和肾上腺素瞬间激增一样，我想我该怎么办？
And, of course, the thought of ridding him from that situation was an option.
当然，让他摆脱这种处境的想法也是一个选择。
And--
还有——
What do you mean?
你什么意思？
Sam Slaven Well, you know, just choke him out or take him in for questioning, or something.
Sam Slaven 好吧，你知道，把他掐死或者带他去审问什么的。
But I'm like, what am I doing?
但我想，我在做什么？
This isn't a war zone.
这不是战区。
Why am I even thinking this nonsense?
为什么我会想到这些废话？
I'm not armed.
我没有武装。
I'm not a killer.
我不是杀手。
I mean, I never was, prior to the war.
我的意思是，在战争之前我从来没有。
And all I [UNINTELLIGIBLE] and I was just like, you know, wait.
我和我[无法理解]只是想，你知道，等等。
Stop.
停止。
Stand here a minute and think about it.
在这里站一会儿想一想。
You know, I want to say that I felt good that nothing happened, but at the same time I just felt terrible.
你知道，我想说我感觉很好，没有发生任何事情，但同时我也感觉很糟糕。
It was like, what have I become?
就像，我变成了什么？
I mean, I didn't have any, you know, notions or thoughts about Muslims prior to joining the Army, but I was, like, why am I not like that anymore?
我的意思是，在参军之前，我对穆斯林没有任何观念或想法，但我想，为什么我不再那样了？
And I was like, what can I do to get back to the way I was?
我想，我能做些什么才能回到原来的样子？
A better person.
一个更好的人。
I sat and thought, and I looked up from the chair I was sitting in and I saw a little poster on a bulletin board that said, "Learn about Islam.
我坐下来思考，然后从椅子上抬起头，看到布告栏上有一张小海报，上面写着：“了解伊斯兰教。
Join the Muslim Student Association.
加入穆斯林学生协会。
It meets on Thursdays." And I thought, you know what?
它在周四开会。”我想，你知道吗？
Maybe that'd be good for me.
也许这对我有好处。
So I went to this Muslim Student Association meeting the next Thursday.
所以我参加了下周四的穆斯林学生协会会议。
Now, before I tell you what happened at that meeting, some background on the Muslim Student Association at Parkland College.
现在，在我告诉你那次会议上发生的事情之前，先介绍一下帕克兰学院穆斯林学生协会的一些背景。
You've already met the founder and president, Yousif Radeef.
您已经见过创始人兼总裁 Yousif Radeef。
He was the guy speaking Arabic on the holiday video.
他是假期视频中说阿拉伯语的人。
He also happens to be the bearded man who Sam wanted to jump in the hallway that day.
他也恰好是萨姆那天想在走廊里跳的那个留胡子的人。
And he's an Iraqi, though his family left Iraq when he was 10 and moved to Jordan, and then the United Arab Emirates before coming to Illinois three years ago.
他是伊拉克人，尽管他的家人在他 10 岁时离开了伊拉克，搬到了约旦，然后又搬到了阿拉伯联合酋长国，三年前来到了伊利诺伊州。
Yousif was 17 when he got here.
优素福来到这里时才 17 岁。
And other Muslims warned him to be careful what he said, that as a Muslim from the Arab world, anything he did might be viewed with suspicion.
其他穆斯林警告他要小心自己的言论，作为一名来自阿拉伯世界的穆斯林，他所做的任何事情都可能会受到怀疑。
The first six months was like the darkest months of my experience in the United States, because I did not have the chance to say what I wanted to say.
前六个月就像我在美国经历中最黑暗的几个月，因为我没有机会说出我想说的话。
I did not behave like myself or the guy who I was.
我的行为举止不像我自己，也不像我本来的样子。
I have had to be from a guy who talks about my religion to a guy who advised not to talk about it.
我必须从一个谈论我的宗教的人变成一个建议不要谈论它的人。
So it was a really sudden change.
所以这是一个非常突然的变化。
It was so bad, it was so bad.
太糟糕了，太糟糕了。
But it got better.
但情况变得更好了。
I'm glad that it got better.
我很高兴它变得更好了。
It got better mostly because Yousif made it better.
它变得更好主要是因为尤瑟夫让它变得更好。
He decided he didn't want to hide who he was or what he thought.
他决定不想隐藏自己的身份或想法。
So when he got to Parkland College, he threw himself into campus life.
因此，当他进入帕克兰学院时，他全身心投入到校园生活中。
He joined clubs and got elected to student government, and wasn't afraid to say that he opposed the Iraq War.
他加入了俱乐部并当选为学生会成员，并且毫不畏惧地说他反对伊拉克战争。
And he started the school's first official chapter of the Muslim Student Association.
他还成立了学校第一个穆斯林学生协会官方分会。
Yousif wanted this particular chapter to be different than other Muslim student groups he had heard about.
优素福希望这个特定的章节与他听说过的其他穆斯林学生团体有所不同。
One of his main goals was to reach out to students who weren't Muslim, especially the ones who had a bad impression of his faith.
他的主要目标之一是接触非穆斯林学生，尤其是那些对他的信仰印象不好的学生。
Somebody have to speak up.
必须有人站出来说话。
Somebody have to tell everybody that what they see in the news, what they hear on the radio, what they read in the magazines and the newspapers is not really true.
必须有人告诉所有人，他们在新闻中看到的、在广播中听到的、在杂志和报纸上读到的内容并不真实。
They only see violence with the name of Islam.
他们只看到打着伊斯兰教名义的暴力。
So, it's like, OK, it's a religion of violence.
所以，这就好像，好吧，这是一种暴力宗教。
And I have heard a lot of people saying this exact quote.
我听到很多人都说过这句话。
For Yousif, having a guy like Sam, someone filled with negative feelings about Muslims, just walk into an MSA meeting was actually kind of a dream scenario.
对于 Yousif 来说，拥有像 Sam 这样对穆斯林充满负面情绪的人，走进 MSA 会议实际上是一种梦想的场景。
It was like he'd hit the jackpot.
就好像他中了大奖一样。
Though, Yousif, going above and beyond the call of duty when it comes to bridging the cultural divide, chose this analogy.
尽管如此，优素福在弥合文化鸿沟方面超越了职责范围，选择了这个类比。
What would a kid feel like on Christmas day, when he get the presents he want and some extra?
当孩子在圣诞节那天收到他想要的礼物和一些额外的礼物时，他会有什么感觉？
I felt more, more than great.
我的感觉不仅仅是伟大。
Great is a small word when I hear that he said, he was a soldier, he had this thing going on, and he came here to change his mind, and all by himself.
当我听到他说，他是一名士兵，他经历了这件事，他来到这里改变主意时，这只是一个小词，而且都是他自己做的。
Nobody urged him to do so.
没有人敦促他这样做。
I was super excited, super excited.
我超级兴奋，超级兴奋。
I tell you what, that first day I was in there, I was sweating and trembling and just like, my god, what am I doing?
我告诉你，我第一天在那里，我满头大汗，浑身发抖，就像，天哪，我在做什么？
There were about 10, maybe 12 students at the meeting, including Yousif, who Sam recognized instantly.
会议上大约有 10 名、也许 12 名学生，其中包括尤瑟夫，萨姆立刻就认出了他。
I walked in the door and I saw that same bearded guy that I'd been behind the week before.
我走进门，看到了一周前我一直在后面的那个留着胡子的家伙。
And thought, oh, wow, this is something here.
我想，哦，哇，这就是这里的东西。
And I saw a lot of females on one side of the room, and the males on the other.
我看到房间的一侧有很多女性，另一侧有很多男性。
And just thought, I know I'm not supposed to sit by the women or something-- that's what they told us in Iraq-- but that's where the door is and I need to be near that door.
只是想，我知道我不应该坐在女人旁边或其他什么地方——这是他们在伊拉克告诉我们的——但那是门所在，我需要靠近那扇门。
And I kind of sat there.
我就坐在那里。
I know I was-- my hands were clenched on the desk, and I was just trembling and sweating and just felt like I was about to have some sort of major anxiety attack, just because it was the first time I'd been outnumbered by Arabs and Muslims since I'd been in Iraq.
我知道我——我的双手紧握在桌子上，我浑身发抖，满头大汗，感觉自己即将遭受某种严重的焦虑症发作，因为这是自从我来到伊拉克以来，阿拉伯人和穆斯林的人数第一次超过我。
So I felt like, hey, I'm back in Iraq again.
所以我感觉，嘿，我又回到了伊拉克。
But I had to keep telling myself, no, no you're not.
但我必须不断告诉自己，不，不，你不是。
You're sitting here.
你坐在这里。
You're in a classroom, in college here.
你在大学的教室里。
You're here voluntarily.
你是自愿来到这里的。
You're here at a meeting.
你在这里开会。
I remember the very first day when he came, it was very shocking for us.
我记得他来的第一天，我们都感到非常震惊。
That's [?
那是[?
Manal, ?] an MSA member from Morocco.
Manal，？] 来自摩洛哥的 MSA 成员。
Sam wasn't the only one in the room having a hard time that day.
那天，山姆并不是房间里唯一一个心情不好的人。
[?
[？
Manal ?], and her sister [?
玛娜尔？]，和她的妹妹[？
Lahmie ?], told me they were uncomfortable, too.
Lahmie？]，告诉我他们也感到不舒服。
Only for them, the reason was Sam.
只对他们来说，原因是萨姆。
We ?] were really saying, what was he doing there?
我们？] 其实是在问，他在那儿做什么？
Is he there as a spy?
他是作为间谍出现的吗？
Or to record all the information that we're saying?
或者记录我们所说的所有信息？
He was asking a lot of questions at the beginning, like where are you from?
一开始他就问了很多问题，比如你是哪里人？
And how do you spell your name?
你的名字怎么拼写？
And things like that.
诸如此类的事情。
It just made you a little skeptical.
这只是让你有点怀疑。
I know somebody asked me, they're like, so why are you here?
我知道有人问我，他们会问，你为什么来这里？
Not in a condescending manner.
不是以居高临下的方式。
It was just, why are you here?
只是，你为什么在这里？
What do you want to learn from this?
你想从中学到什么？
And all I said was, like, I'm doing this for therapy.
我所说的只是，我这样做是为了治疗。
And they just looked at me like I was kind of crazy.
他们只是看着我，好像我有点疯了。
And they're like, what do you mean?
他们就像，你是什么意思？
And I said, well, I was in the war and I just want to change my perspective on why I feel the way I feel about your religion and people.
我说，好吧，我在战争中，我只是想改变我的观点，为什么我对你们的宗教和人民有这样的感觉。
You said that the first day?
第一天你就这么说了？
Sam Slaven Yeah.
萨姆·斯拉文 是的。
Yeah, and some of them were like, oh, man, we've got to watch out for this guy.
是的，他们中的一些人就像，哦，伙计，我们必须提防这个家伙。
They were probably more concerned about me than I was concerned about them at that point.
那时他们对我的关心可能比我对他们的关心还要多。
The first ?] time he was talking about himself--
第一次？]他谈论自己时——
He wasn't showing any regrets or any feelings about his experience in Iraq.
他对自己在伊拉克的经历没有表现出任何遗憾或任何感情。
And that was some kind of hurting for us, because of we do have feelings for what is happening in Iraq.
这对我们来说是某种伤害，因为我们确实对伊拉克正在发生的事情有感情。
[?
[？
Manal ?] told me about one young woman at the meeting who was from Iraq.
马纳尔？] 告诉我会议上一位来自伊拉克的年轻女性。
And ?] he asked that very girl from Iraq, how was the situation before?
还有？]他问那个来自伊拉克的女孩，以前的情况怎么样？
And she just told him, it was much better than now.
而她只是告诉他，比现在好多了。
She had some family members that died in the recent Iraq War.
她的一些家人在最近的伊拉克战争中丧生。
It was very hurting for her.
这对她来说非常痛苦。
The meeting ended.
会议结束了。
And sometime later, Sam and Yousif ended up running into each other on campus.
一段时间后，萨姆和尤瑟夫最终在校园里相遇了。
And I did pretty well.
我做得很好。
I shook the guy's hand, which I never thought I'd do after the first time I saw the guy.
我握了他的手，这是我第一次见到他后从未想过会这么做。
And what really struck me was when he said, I'm from Iraq.
真正令我震惊的是当他说“我来自伊拉克”时。
And I just froze.
我愣住了。
I was like, oh my gosh, I'm standing here with an Iraqi.
我当时想，天哪，我和一个伊拉克人站在这里。
I was like, wow.
我当时想，哇。
Not only was I with all these Muslims and everything today, but I stood there and talked to an Iraqi and shook his hand.
今天我不仅和所有这些穆斯林以及所有的事情在一起，而且我站在那里与一个伊拉克人交谈并与他握手。
I went home and I called the therapist and I was like, I sat down with a bunch of Muslims this week.
我回到家，给治疗师打电话，我想，这周我和一群穆斯林坐在一起。
And we was like, oh, no, what happened?
我们当时想，哦，不，发生了什么事？
I still remember the day he told me he joined the Muslim Student Association.
我仍然记得他告诉我他加入穆斯林学生会的那一天。
I almost fell off my chair.
我差点从椅子上摔下来。
What Sam had done was not the course of action his therapist had recommended.
萨姆所做的并不是他的治疗师建议的行动方案。
He'd basically cooked up for himself an extreme version of a pretty standard treatment for trauma, exposure therapy, where you re-experience a traumatic event as a way of recovering from it.
他基本上为自己制定了一种相当标准的创伤治疗方法的极端版本，即暴露疗法，在这种疗法中，你重新经历创伤事件，作为从中恢复的一种方式。
What you're trying to ultimately do is take what we call a hot memory-- that's a traumatic memory that still owns him, so to speak-- and turn it into just a bad memory.
你最终要做的就是把我们所说的“热记忆”——可以这么说，是一种仍然拥有他的创伤记忆——并将其变成一个糟糕的记忆。
Everybody's got bad memories and we can live with bad memories.
每个人都有不好的回忆，我们也可以带着不好的回忆生活。
You're not going to make it go away.
你不会让它消失。
You just want to desensitize it so that it's not having such an intrusive effect in their lives.
你只是想让它变得不敏感，这样它就不会对他们的生活产生如此侵入性的影响。
The problem with what Sam did, and why Kohlbecker says he'd never counsel a patient to do it, is that it wasn't gradual.
萨姆所做的事情的问题在于，这不是渐进的，也是科尔贝克说他从不建议病人这样做的原因。
It was like he jumped into the deep end not knowing if he could swim.
就像他跳进了深渊，不知道自己是否会游泳。
But his doctor thought he could handle it, so Sam kept going back.
但他的医生认为他可以应付，所以山姆继续回去。
I know it was extremely difficult for him to make himself stay in the room, but it got gradually easier and easier and easier.
我知道让自己留在房间里对他来说是极其困难的，但渐渐地变得越来越容易、越来越容易。
Probably by the fifth or sixth week, I'd move away from the seat by the door and I start talking to the people and I'd ask questions.
可能到了第五或第六周，我会离开靠门的座位，开始与人们交谈并提出问题。
Like, why have I always heard this about whatever aspect of Islam?
比如，为什么我总是听到有关伊斯兰教各个方面的说法？
To try and understand why what happened in the name of Islam happened when I was in Iraq.
试图理解为什么当我在伊拉克时，会发生以伊斯兰教名义发生的事情。
And they'd be like, well, that's because that guy is totally nuts.
他们会说，好吧，那是因为那家伙完全疯了。
That's why.
这就是原因。
I'm like, that makes sense.
我想，这很有道理。
I grew up here in the US of A-- what are we?
我在美国长大——我们是什么？
Pretty much a Christian nation, and we got a lot of Christian nuts out here.
几乎是一个基督教国家，我们这里有很多基督教迷。
I was like, yeah, I could see.
我当时想，是的，我能看到。
I guess they're entitled to have their wackos, too.
我想他们也有权拥有他们的怪人。
As the school year went on, some of the other students in the MSA started noticing something about Sam.
随着学年的继续，MSA 的其他一些学生开始注意到 Sam 的一些事情。
The only non-Muslim in their group had become one of its most active members.
他们小组中唯一的非穆斯林已成为最活跃的成员之一。
Whenever we had meetings, he was the first person to come and we would always find him at the door, waiting for the other members.
每当我们开会的时候，他都是第一个来的，我们总是会发现他在门口等待其他成员。
[?
[？
Manal ?] had stopped wondering if Sam was a spy.
玛娜尔？]不再怀疑萨姆是否是间谍。
His dedication had won her over.
他的奉献精神赢得了她的青睐。
And he also volunteered, almost always, to sit in a table that we would set in the college center to outreach other people and get them to know about what we really believe in, and that we're not all terrorists, things to dispel the misconceptions that people had.
他几乎总是自愿坐在我们在大学中心设置的一张桌子旁，以便与其他人接触，让他们了解我们真正相信的东西，以及我们并不都是恐怖分子，这些都是为了消除人们的误解。
And it was him that was doing this job from times to others.
而他也时不时地替别人做这项工作。
Did you catch that?
你明白了吗？
Sam actually sat at a table on campus, representing Muslim students.
萨姆实际上坐在校园里的一张桌子旁，代表穆斯林学生。
It had a really good impact on everyone.
这对每个人都产生了非常好的影响。
He just showed us he was very devoted to the work he was doing.
他只是向我们展示了他非常专注于他所做的工作。
The adviser to the MSA, Dennis Kaczor, noticed another change in Sam.
海事局顾问丹尼斯·卡佐尔注意到萨姆的另一个变化。
I began to find out that Yousif and him were doing things, going different places and hanging out.
我开始发现优素福和他正在做一些事情，去不同的地方，一起出去玩。
And they weren't talking about the Iraq war, either.
他们也没有谈论伊拉克战争。
He said he's an Iraq war veteran.
他说他是一名伊拉克战争老兵。
And he knows I'm a [UNINTELLIGIBLE] Iraqi.
他知道我是[无法辨认]伊拉克人。
This is one of things that got us involved together, one of them.
这是让我们共同参与的事情之一，其中之一。
But the most thing that got us involved is probably magic, the magic tricks.
但最让我们参与其中的可能是魔术，魔术。
That's right, magic tricks.
没错，就是魔术。
See, Sam's a magician, a detail that might not be relevant were it not for the fact that Yousif loves magic.
看，山姆是一名魔术师，如果不是因为尤瑟夫热爱魔术，这个细节可能无关紧要。
And one day, in an MSA seeming, Sam took out a deck of cards.
有一天，山姆以 MSA 的形式拿出了一副纸牌。
Magicians, if they have nothing to do, they just practice on their cards while they're listening in a class, I believe.
我相信魔术师，如果他们无事可做，他们只是在课堂上听课时练习卡片。
So he came in with his cards in his hands and he's trying to shuffle them, flip them, do the tricks.
所以他手里拿着牌进来，试图洗牌、翻转它们，玩一些把戏。
I saw him, I was like, ooh, that's cool.
我看到他，我就想，哦，太酷了。
I asked him a couple of questions and he answered me back.
我问了他几个问题，他回答了我。
And soon they were spending time together.
很快他们就在一起度过了时光。
[CARDS SHUFFLING] Practicing magic tricks.
[洗牌]练习魔术。
What I'm going to going do, I'm going to take your card, and without looking at it, I'm just going to insert it down there.
我要做的就是拿走你的卡，看也不看它，我就把它插在那里。
Taking their first car ride.
第一次乘坐汽车。
Sam Slaven It was like, wow, I'm actually sitting in the car with an Iraqi.
Sam Slaven 感觉就像是，哇，我真的和一个伊拉克人坐在车里。
Were you driving me or was I driving you?
是你载我还是我载你？
You were driving.
你当时正在开车。
And I think I said it out loud.
我想我大声说了出来。
I was like, I can't believe I'm sitting in here without a gun, because every time I'd been in a vehicle with an Iraqi, I was armed.
我当时想，我不敢相信我坐在这里没有枪，因为每次我和伊拉克人一起坐车时，我都带着武器。
Like any friends, they were there for each other.
像任何朋友一样，他们互相支持。
Yousif helped Sam fix his roof, and Sam gave Yousif advice on the best way to approach Americans when raising money for the MSA.
优素福帮助山姆修好了屋顶，山姆则向优素福提供了在为 MSA 筹集资金时接近美国人的最佳方式的建议。
Sam told me, when we go inside, don't tell them it's the Muslim Student Association.
萨姆告诉我，当我们进去时，不要告诉他们这是穆斯林学生协会。
Don't tell them we're from the Muslim Student Association, just say MSA.
不要告诉他们我们来自穆斯林学生协会，只要说 MSA 即可。
Because we didn't want them to say, oh, wait, I'm not supporting that kind of organization.
因为我们不想让他们说，哦，等等，我不支持那种组织。
It's probably al Qaeda or something.
可能是基地组织之类的。
And then, last April, came Sam and Yousif's most ambitious collaboration.
然后，去年四月，Sam 和 Yousif 进行了最雄心勃勃的合作。
WCIA-3 News at 10:00.
WCIA-3 新闻 10:00。
Male Reporter Well, some runners in Champaign were busy fighting the negative image of Islam today through exercise.
男记者：嗯，今天香槟的一些跑步者正忙着通过锻炼来对抗伊斯兰教的负面形象。
Parkland College's Muslim Student organization held a 5K run this morning.
帕克兰学院的穆斯林学生组织今天早上举行了 5 公里跑步活动。
Runners from all over the country participated for the $1,000 top prize.
来自全国各地的跑者参与角逐1,000美元的最高奖金。
The 5K run was the MSA's biggest project, and it never would have happened without Sam.
5K 跑步是 MSA 最大的项目，如果没有 Sam，这一切都不会发生。
He volunteered to organize the race, and spent months planning and publicizing it.
他自愿组织这次比赛，并花了几个月的时间进行策划和宣传。
And in the end, it was just what Yousif had hoped for, a positive event for the whole community that just happened to be sponsored by Muslims.
最终，这正是优素福所希望的，对整个社区来说是一次积极的活动，而且恰好是由穆斯林赞助的。
It was a big day.
这是一个重要的日子。
And to top it off, after the race, Yousif invited Sam to play in a soccer game with a group of Muslim students from the state university.
最重要的是，比赛结束后，优素福邀请萨姆与州立大学的一群穆斯林学生一起踢足球。
A year earlier just the idea of being on a playing field, surrounded by Muslim men he didn't know, would have made Sam anxious.
一年前，只要想到在一个运动场上，周围都是他不认识的穆斯林男人，萨姆就会感到焦虑。
I considered that particular day to just be a big milestone in overcoming all the PTSD and everything.
我认为那一天是克服所有创伤后应激障碍和一切的一个重要里程碑。
Because one, I was kind of like in a gladiator pit full of Muslims, and--
因为第一，我有点像在一个充满穆斯林的角斗士坑里，而且——
Totally.
完全可以。
Lisa Pollak But just to show you how complicated their situation was, at the same time Sam was realizing how far he'd come, Yousif was having the opposite experience, getting a reminder of how far apart their two worlds still were.
丽莎·波拉克 但只是为了向你展示他们的处境有多么复杂，在山姆意识到自己已经走了多远的同时，尤瑟夫却有相反的经历，提醒他们两个世界仍然相距多么遥远。
And I guess I should add that Sam wasn't with us when Yousif told me this part of the story.
我想我应该补充一点，当优素福告诉我这部分故事时，山姆不在我们身边。
We got there, we played and people asked me who he was.
我们到了那里，我们开始比赛，人们问我他是谁。
So I told him he was Sam from the MSA, Muslim Student Association of Parkland, as you know, American and an Iraq War veteran.
所以我告诉他，他是帕克兰穆斯林学生协会的萨姆，如你所知，美国人，伊拉克战争老兵。
And some people started being suspicious.
有些人开始怀疑。
What is he doing in the MSA?
他在 MSA 做什么？
He should not be in the MSA.
他不应该在 MSA 中。
MSA only for Muslims.
MSA 仅适用于穆斯林。
He's an Iraq War veteran, don't think he's spying on us?
他是一名伊拉克战争老兵，你不认为他在监视我们吗？
All these things that made me feel sick to a certain point.
所有这些事情让我在某种程度上感到恶心。
What did you say to them?
你对他们说什么了？
Yousif Radeef I didn't reply back.
Yousif Radeef 我没有回复。
I just kept quiet.
我只是保持沉默。
We have hang out for, I don't know, six months by then.
到那时我们已经在一起了，我不知道，六个月了。
And we were just regular friends, go out, talk, hang out at Parkland College.
我们只是普通朋友，一起出去聊天，在帕克兰学院闲逛。
I kind of don't feel he was an Iraq War veteran anymore.
我感觉他不再是伊拉克战争老兵了。
This is just some footage from the turret of a tank.
这只是坦克炮塔的一些镜头。
When I went to Champaign, I took Sam up on his offer to play me some of the videotape he'd shot in Iraq.
当我去尚佩恩时，我接受了萨姆的提议，给我播放了一些他在伊拉克拍摄的录像带。
After all the talking we'd done about the war, it was interesting to actually see him there.
在我们谈论了战争之后，真正在那里见到他很有趣。
There were shots of Sam him driving his Humvee, and on guard duty, and a lot of funny scenes, off-duty soldiers just goofing around.
有山姆驾驶他的悍马车执勤的镜头，还有很多有趣的场景，下班的士兵只是闲逛。
Like these guys, amusing themselves during down time by shocking themselves with tasers.
就像这些人一样，在休息时间用泰瑟枪电击自己取乐。
C'mon, you can take it.
来吧，你可以接受它。
[TASER CRACKLING]
[泰瑟枪爆裂声]
Ah.
啊。
[BLEEP] Ah, [BLEEP].
[哔]啊，[哔]。
Lisa Pollak Yousif was in the room with us.
丽莎·波拉克·优素福 (Lisa Pollak Yousif) 和我们一起在房间里。
He'd come to Sam's house to meet me that day, and he'd also been curious to see the video.
那天他来萨姆家见我，他也很好奇想看那个视频。
I kept thinking how weird it must have been for him to be watching some of the footage, even just seeing Sam in Yousif's country, wearing camouflage and sunglasses and carrying a rifle was a little startling.
我一直在想，他观看一些镜头一定是多么奇怪，即使只是看到山姆在优素福的国家，穿着迷彩服，戴着墨镜，拿着步枪，都有点令人吃惊。
In one shot, Sam tells the camera that there isn't much to see in Iraq, besides trash and filth and the scum of the earth.
在一个镜头中，萨姆告诉镜头，除了垃圾、污物和地球上的浮渣之外，伊拉克没什么可看的。
And then there was this scene, a bunch of soldiers standing around telling jokes to a guy named Hamsa, their Iraqi translator.
然后就出现了这样的场景，一群士兵站在那里给一个名叫哈姆萨的伊拉克翻译讲笑话。
Hey, Hamsa, you know what the difference is between an Iraqi and a human?
嘿，哈姆萨，你知道伊拉克人和人类有什么区别吗？
Everything.
一切。
The next one was hard to hear, So Sam repeated it.
下一个声音很难听，所以山姆又重复了一遍。
The next kid here, he's saying, "What's the difference between a dead Iraqi in the road and a dead skunk in the road?" The punchline is "There's tire skid marks on the road before the dead skunk."
这里的下一个孩子说，“路上死去的伊拉克人和路上死的臭鼬有什么区别？”妙语是“臭鼬死前，路上有轮胎打滑的痕迹。”
And then came Sam's joke.
然后是萨姆的笑话。
Sam Slaven Hey, why do Iraqi men wear mustaches?
Sam Slaven 嘿，为什么伊拉克男人留胡子？
So they can look like their mothers.
这样他们就可以看起来像他们的母亲。
I glanced over at Yousif to see how he was reacting.
我看了尤瑟夫一眼，想看看他的反应。
I was feeling incredibly uncomfortable.
我感到非常不舒服。
But when I asked Yousif how he was feeling, he said even though he knew some Iraqis would be offended by the jokes, he wasn't.
但当我问尤瑟夫感觉如何时，他说尽管他知道一些伊拉克人会被这些笑话冒犯，但他并没有。
He didn't blame Sam for talking this way.
他并没有责怪Sam这样说话。
He was just like any other American soldier down in the battlefield.
他就像战场上的其他美国士兵一样。
I would assume so.
我想是这样。
Or worse.
或者更糟。
Probably he was the best soldier [?
也许他是最好的士兵[？
in mood ?] back then, being this way.
有心情吗？] 那时，就是这样。
It's a battlefield.
这是一个战场。
I mean, it's not a joke.
我的意思是，这不是玩笑。
It is a serious thing.
这是一件严肃的事情。
So I do not feel different from the videos.
所以我感觉和视频没有什么不同。
I don't know.
我不知道。
But more than anything, Yousif says, the Sam in the video just wasn't the Sam he knows.
但尤瑟夫说，最重要的是，视频中的山姆不是他认识的山姆。
They are two different guys.
他们是两个不同的人。
And when I talk to Sam, that's basically the same thing he says.
当我和 Sam 交谈时，他说的基本上是一样的。
The war changed him.
战争改变了他。
You know, somebody listening to this right now might say, well, I would never say Iraqi men wear mustaches so they can look like their mothers.
你知道，现在听到这个的人可能会说，好吧，我永远不会说伊拉克男人留胡子是为了看起来像他们的母亲。
But you know what?
但你知道吗？
Can you honestly say that without being in the situation?
你能在不身处这种情况的情况下诚实地说出这句话吗？
Because I sit here now and say, well, I'd never say that, but that's what happened.
因为我现在坐在这里说，好吧，我永远不会这么说，但那就是发生的事情。
That's just how you get through it.
这就是你如何度过难关的。
It's obviously not something that I'm proud of, or probably most people are proud of, but you don't care that it's perceived as bigoted or just inhumane.
这显然不是我引以为傲的事情，或者可能是大多数人引以为豪的事情，但你不在乎它被认为是偏执或不人道的。
It doesn't matter to you because you're in this situation.
这对你来说并不重要，因为你处于这种情况。
They were trying to kill you.
他们想杀了你。
And when somebody is trying to kill you, everything you thought you believed up until the point when bullets start flying by your head, changes.
当有人试图杀死你时，你认为你所相信的一切都会改变，直到子弹开始从你的头上飞过。
It didn't bring out the very worst in me, but it is the worst I'm ever going to be in my life.
它并没有让我表现出最糟糕的一面，但这是我一生中最糟糕的一面。
I can tell you that.
我可以告诉你。
Sam told me later he was actually a little nervous showing Yousif the videos, but just a little.
萨姆后来告诉我，他在给尤瑟夫看这些视频时实际上有点紧张，但只是一点点。
He trusted Yousif, trusted their friendship, which is a long way to come from wanting to take him down in a hallway.
他信任尤瑟夫，信任他们的友谊，这与想要在走廊上把他打倒相比还有很长的路要走。
It was only by the sheer force of will that Sam even went to the Muslim Student Association in the first place.
正是凭借纯粹的意志力，萨姆才去了穆斯林学生会。
And to do it, he had to overlook every instinct he had telling him to run the other way.
为了做到这一点，他必须忽视每一个告诉他要往另一条路跑的本能。
And then he had to meet someone like Yousif, who welcomed him, ignoring anything Sam might have done in the past.
然后他必须遇到像优素福这样的人，他欢迎他，而忽略了山姆过去可能做过的任何事情。
When you consider what it took for Sam to overcome his hatred, it's no wonder it happens so rarely.
当你想到山姆是如何克服仇恨的时候，就会发现这种情况很少发生也就不足为奇了。
Lisa Pollak.
丽莎·波拉克。
She is one of the producers of our show.
她是我们节目的制作人之一。
Last fall, Yousif move to the University of Illinois where he's studying molecular and cell biology.
去年秋天，尤瑟夫搬到伊利诺伊大学，在那里学习分子和细胞生物学。
He plans to be a dentist.
他计划成为一名牙医。
Sam is at Eastern Illinois University, where he is studying geography.
萨姆在东伊利诺伊大学学习地理。
Coming up, what to do if the very reasonable, very persuasive voice inside your head tells you to drink, to smoke, to stop ironing that skirt.
接下来，如果你脑子里有一个非常合理、非常有说服力的声音告诉你要喝酒、抽烟、停止熨裙子，该怎么办？
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life , I'm Ira Glass.
这就是美国生活，我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose a theme, bring you a variety of different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，每周我们的节目都会选择一个主题，为您带来有关该主题的各种不同类型的故事。
Today's show, The Devil Inside Me.
今天的节目是《我内心的魔鬼》。
We have stories of people battling things inside themselves, impulses and thoughts they would rather not have.
我们有这样的故事：人们与内心的事物、他们不愿拥有的冲动和想法作斗争。
We have arrived at Act Two of our show.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act two, Vox Diaboli.
第二幕，Vox Diaboli。
Of course, we all have things inside ourselves that we want to fight.
当然，我们内心都有想要与之抗争的东西。
12-step programs and self-help books and organized religion would not do such a thriving business if this were not so common.
如果这种情况不那么普遍，12步计划、自助书籍和有组织的宗教就不会如此繁荣。
But sometimes, the voice in one's head really does seem like a voice.
但有时候，脑子里的声音确实像是一个声音。
Addicts talk about this a lot.
成瘾者经常谈论这个问题。
This is the voice of having one drink, you know, just one drink.
这是喝一杯的声音，你知道，只是喝一杯。
You deserve it, you can handle it.
你应得的，你可以处理它。
Just one drink.
只需喝一杯。
Well, one of our producers, Nancy Updike, started asking around about whether people felt like they were under a spell of an inner voice like this.
好吧，我们的制片人之一南希·厄普代克开始四处询问人们是否感觉自己受到了这样的内心声音的影响。
And it was like people had been waiting all their lives for somebody to ask them this question.
就好像人们一生都在等待有人问他们这个问题。
She heard from serial cheaters, and road ragers, and move-aholics, a guy who obsessively buys too much food to the point where he goes into debt, people compulsive in ways that she had never heard of.
她听到了连环骗子、路怒者和搬家狂的消息，这些人沉迷于购买太多食物，以至于负债累累，这些人以她从未听说过的方式强迫自己。
Here are some of them.
以下是其中一些。
A quick warning to listeners, there's nothing explicit in here, but one of the people in here does acknowledge the existence of sex.
快速警告听众，这里没有任何明确的内容，但这里的一个人确实承认性的存在。
I certainly know voice you're talking about.
我当然知道你所说的声音。
The voice is irresistible, always.
声音总是让人无法抗拒。
I'm in the thrall of that voice.
我已经被那个声音所束缚了。
Totally out of control.
完全失控了。
It's got this life of its own, and I can't tame it anymore.
它有自己的生命，我无法再驯服它了。
Up until recently, that voice has made me a very poor man.
直到最近，那个声音让我成为一个非常贫穷的人。
I actually have a name for the voice.
我实际上有一个声音的名字。
I call it Stan.
我叫它斯坦。
Stan is the guy who tells me to have the extra glass of wine.
斯坦是那个叫我多喝一杯酒的人。
Stan is the guy who tells me to smoke.
斯坦是那个叫我抽烟的人。
I remember somehow realizing just how finely calibrated the voice was to every nuance, every part of my feelings, including the feeling that I didn't want to smoke cigarettes.
我记得不知怎的，我意识到这个声音对我的每一个细微差别、我的感受的每一个部分都有多么精确的校准，包括我不想抽烟的感觉。
And it's just like, might as well have another cigarette, because this is it.
就像，不妨再吸一支烟，因为就是这样了。
Tomorrow you're going to quit.
明天你就要辞职了。
Oh yeah, my voice can pull up statistics, like, obesity is a killer.
哦，是的，我的声音可以调出统计数据，比如，肥胖是杀手。
So the voice would also say, well, it's not that many beers.
所以那个声音也会说，好吧，啤酒不多。
Because, in fact, if you're thin enough, you actually don't have to drink all that much to get high.
因为，事实上，如果你足够瘦，你实际上不需要喝那么多酒就能兴奋。
Go back to bed for five minutes, just five minutes.
回到床上五分钟，就五分钟。
Five more minutes, close your eyes, you'll feel great.
再坚持五分钟，闭上眼睛，你会感觉棒极了。
And then tomorrow something would happen, and there's a good reason to smoke that day.
然后明天就会发生一些事情，那天就有充分的理由吸烟。
And then it was, oh you already smoked today, so today's not the day you are going to quit, so smoke another cigarette.
然后就是，哦，你今天已经抽烟了，所以今天不是你要戒烟的日子，所以再抽一支烟。
And then I'll get up five minutes later and it'll be like, eh, I mean, you don't need to iron a skirt.
五分钟后我会起床，然后我会说，呃，我的意思是，你不需要熨裙子。
Do you really need to iron the skirt?
裙子真的需要熨烫吗？
If you need to iron the skirt, do you need to be wearing the skirt?
如果需要熨烫裙子，需要穿着裙子吗？
Maybe you could wear a different skirt, and then you could sleep for 10 more minutes.
也许你可以穿一条不同的裙子，然后你可以再睡10分钟。
And that seems like a reasonable negotiation.
这似乎是一次合理的谈判。
One of the things I do, that the voice came up with, is when I binge and purge, you never can be sure how much you got back up.
我做的一件事，那个声音提出的，是当我暴饮暴食和净化时，你永远无法确定你恢复了多少。
The voice came up with the idea that, if I put a coffee can on a scale and adjusted the weight to include the weight of the coffee can, and weighed all my food before I ate it, and then threw up in the same coffee can, I could judge by the weight how much came up.
这个声音提出了这样的想法：如果我把一个咖啡罐放在秤上，调整重量以包括咖啡罐的重量，并在吃之前称量我所有的食物，然后吐在同一个咖啡罐中，我可以根据重量判断吐出的量。
But that's one of the things that I don't want to do that.
但这是我不想做的事情之一。
How complicated and time consuming and just humiliating is that?
这是多么复杂、耗时、令人羞辱的事情？
And the voice is like, yeah, but do you really want to run the risk of leaving some extra food in there?
声音就像是，是的，但是你真的想冒着在里面留下一些额外食物的风险吗？
The voice definitely brings in also an element of shame.
这个声音肯定也带来了羞耻的元素。
It says, you want everyone to think that you have money.
它说，你希望每个人都认为你有钱。
You want everyone to see that you're generous and you can give and put yourself out there financially.
你希望每个人都看到你很慷慨，你可以在经济上给予和奉献自己。
It will prove that you're not a poor kid.
这将证明你不是一个可怜的孩子。
And it also says a lot of mean things, too.
它还说了很多刻薄的话。
Your husband's too good for you, you may as well have a glass of wine because without it you won't be as entertaining.
你的丈夫对你太好了，你不妨喝一杯酒，因为没有它你就不会那么有趣。
When we decided to get engaged and we had been living together for a little while, the voice was like, you tricked him into giving you the ring, OK, that's a start.
当我们决定订婚并且我们已经在一起生活了一段时间时，声音就像是，你欺骗他给了你戒指，好吧，这是一个开始。
But you better try your hardest to make sure he doesn't take it away, because he's going to find out the truth about you and how much you suck.
但你最好尽最大努力确保他不会把它拿走，因为他会发现关于你的真相以及你有多糟糕。
So you better distract him with a really thin body.
所以你最好用一个非常瘦弱的身体来分散他的注意力。
Well, let me just do this one.
好吧，让我只做这一件事。
If I pop it, I'll have smooth skin, my skin will look nice after I do this.
如果我把它弹出来，我的皮肤就会光滑，这样做后我的皮肤会看起来很好。
I've definitely scarred my skin.
我的皮肤肯定伤痕累累。
I can see the scars, even though I'm wearing makeup and everything.
即使我化了妆，我也能看到伤疤。
It's the same thing and it always pushes me the same direction, and I'm always the same 40 minutes late.
都是同样的事情，它总是把我推向同一个方向，而我总是迟到 40 分钟。
I think I probably gave the bank over $2,000 in service charges.
我想我大概给了银行2000多美元的服务费。
That voice.
那个声音。
It was so charming.
真是太迷人了。
I think one thing that got me in a standoff against the voice this year was I slept with a guy who has a girlfriend, and she's kind of a bigger girl.
我认为今年让我与声音对峙的一件事是我和一个有女朋友的男人睡过，而她是一个更大的女孩。
And he had slept with a bunch of other girls in town that I knew.
他还和城里我认识的其他一些女孩睡过。
And they were all heavy girls.
而且她们都是身材魁梧的女孩。
And I slept with him, and I was thinking to myself, I must have rocked his world, because I'm thin and he's used to these fat girls.
我和他睡在一起，我心里想，我一定震撼了他的世界，因为我很瘦，而他已经习惯了这些胖女孩。
And then I found out he was going around town saying that having sex with me was like having sex with a pile of paper clips, which is not nice.
然后我发现他在城里走来走去，说和我做爱就像和一堆回形针做爱，这不太好。
And for a couple of days I was kind of like, you know, maybe you're wrong, voice.
有几天我的声音有点像，你知道，也许你错了。
Maybe you're wrong and maybe I should gain weight and maybe I should stop sleeping with these men.
也许你错了，也许我应该增加体重，也许我应该停止和这些男人睡觉。
And that lasted for a couple of days and then the voice was like, when he said pile of paper clips, all the other girls were jealous when they heard that.
这种情况持续了几天，然后那个声音就像是，当他说一堆回形针时，所有其他女孩听到这句话后都嫉妒了。
And at least he's talking about you.
至少他在谈论你。
At least you made an impression on him.
至少你给他留下了深刻的印象。
No matter what they say, the voice turns it into a compliment.
无论他们说什么，声音都会变成恭维。
Right now, yeah.
现在，是的。
I think I'm in some serious trouble, to be honest.
老实说，我想我遇到了严重的麻烦。
Thanks to everybody who talked with us.
感谢所有与我们交谈的人。
That story from Nancy Updike.
南希·厄普代克的故事。
[MUSIC - "LEXICON DEVIL" BY THE GERMS]
[音乐-细菌的“词汇魔鬼”]
Act three, The Devil Wears Birkenstocks.
第三幕，穿勃肯鞋的魔鬼。
Well, we've heard today from people who are battling all kinds of inner demons.
好吧，今天我们听到了那些正在与各种内心恶魔作斗争的人的声音。
David Dickerson has done that, and he's gone one step further.
大卫·迪克森（David Dickerson）做到了这一点，而且他更进了一步。
When I was 23 years old and wrestling with my faith, the last big battle for my soul came when I had to face down an actual demon who was a guest in one of my university classes.
当我 23 岁的时候，我正在与我的信仰进行斗争，我的灵魂的最后一场大战到来了，当时我不得不面对一个真正的恶魔，他是我大学课堂上的一位嘉宾。
Or that's how I saw it at the time.
或者我当时就是这么看的。
But the battle had started long before, when I was a kid.
但这场战斗很久以前就开始了，当时我还是个孩子。
I had been raised a fundamentalist Christian.
我从小就是一个原教旨主义基督徒。
Adam and Eve, the flood, David and Goliath, all of that really happened.
亚当和夏娃、洪水、大卫和歌利亚，这一切都真实发生过。
Jesus walked on water and was born of the Virgin and said everything that the four gospels tell us.
耶稣在水面上行走，由童贞女所生，并说出了四福音告诉我们的一切。
But after years of religious studies classes at the University of Arizona, I felt myself swerving toward a moderate Catholicism and wasn't quite sure about many of the things I had been raised to believe.
但在亚利桑那大学学习了多年的宗教研究课程后，我感觉自己正在转向温和的天主教，并且对我从小就相信的许多事情不太确定。
The history of the Bible wasn't as pure as I had been taught.
圣经的历史并不像我所学到的那样纯粹。
I was questioning inconsistencies, like how simple textual analysis pretty much proves Paul didn't write the book of Hebrews.
我质疑其中的不一致之处，比如简单的文本分析就足以证明希伯来书不是保罗写的。
Basic facts about the nature of Jesus, of God, of our duties on this earth seemed to me less like eternal truths and more like things I happen to believe.
在我看来，关于耶稣、上帝的本质以及我们在地球上的责任的基本事实不太像永恒的真理，而更像是我碰巧相信的事情。
But I was still sure about two things.
但我仍然确信两件事。
There was a spiritual world behind what we could see, and it contained both good and evil spirits.
我们所看到的背后有一个精神世界，其中有善灵也有邪灵。
Angels, that is, and demons.
也就是说，天使和恶魔。
I believed this for a couple reasons.
我相信这一点有几个原因。
First of all, the Bible said so.
首先，圣经是这么说的。
Time and again in the gospels, a demon-possessed person will cross Jesus' path and then the demon inside the person snarls and curses.
在福音书中，一次又一次，一个被鬼附的人会遇到耶稣的道路，然后人体内的鬼就会咆哮和咒骂。
Jesus rebukes the demon, casts them out, and the person is healed.
耶稣斥责了邪灵，把它们赶了出去，那个人就得到了医治。
But beyond just the Bible, my sister and father had both seen demons.
但除了圣经之外，我的姐姐和父亲都见过恶魔。
They've always been kind of closet charismatics, and for a while our family was going to both kinds of services.
他们一直都是一种隐秘的魅力，有一段时间我们一家人都参加这两种服务。
Charismatic Christians are the ones who speak in tongues and lay hands on sick people.
有魅力的基督徒是那些说方言、按手抚摸病人的人。
At that church, we got regular reports from visiting missionaries who would tell hair-raising stories about how they'd faced down local witch doctors who would suddenly yell at the missionaries in a strange voice and in perfect English, or cause spears to levitate over them menacingly.
在那座教堂，我们定期收到来访传教士的报告，他们会讲述令人毛骨悚然的故事，讲述他们如何面对当地巫医，巫医会突然用奇怪的声音和完美的英语对传教士大喊大叫，或者让长矛威胁性地悬浮在他们上方。
I'd never actually seen a demon myself, but all of us Christian kids traded demon tales the way other kids swap ghost stories, and for the same reason, because it's scary, but exciting, but scary, but exciting.
我自己从未真正见过恶魔，但我们所有的基督徒孩子都像其他孩子交换鬼故事一样交换恶魔故事，出于同样的原因，因为它很可怕，但令人兴奋，但令人恐惧，但令人兴奋。
So even though years went by, and I still never saw a demon, a little sliver of that fear stayed with me and kept me on my guard, just in case.
因此，尽管很多年过去了，我仍然从未见过恶魔，但一丝恐惧仍然伴随着我，让我保持警惕，以防万一。
If I ever did meet one, I wouldn't make the mistake of treating it like a metaphor.
如果我真的遇到过一个人，我就不会错误地把它当作一个隐喻。
So anyway, at the time of this story, I was a college senior, and to fill out my last semester of electives, I decided to take a class called Paranormal Anthropology.
所以无论如何，在写这个故事的时候，我是一名大学四年级学生，为了填写最后一个学期的选修课，我决定选修一门叫做超自然人类学的课程。
This was about strange phenomena.
这是关于奇怪的现象。
Dowsing, UFOs, ESP, past life regression, all that stuff you find on the X- Files .
探矿、UFO、ESP、前世回溯，所有你在 X 档案中找到的东西。
And the professor was really interesting, because although our textbook was a skeptical look at all these things, he would bring in guest lecturers who were actual believers, so we could get both sides of the story.
这位教授真的很有趣，因为尽管我们的教科书对所有这些事情都持怀疑态度，但他会邀请真正相信的客座讲师，这样我们就可以了解故事的两面。
We were lectured one week by three UFO abductees.
三名不明飞行物被绑架者对我们进行了一周的讲座。
And the next week, we had a dowser try and trace the water mains on the University green.
接下来的一周，我们进行了一次探矿，尝试追踪大学绿地上的水管。
The dowser failed, and the abductees were weird.
探矿失败了，被绑架者也很奇怪。
And, on the whole, it looked like science was winning.
总体而言，科学似乎正在获胜。
But then, one day, the professor announced that our guest next time would be a medium, a woman who channeled spirits.
但有一天，教授宣布我们下一次的客人将是一位灵媒，一位能够引导灵魂的女性。
And she was going to let herself get possessed, right there in the classroom, two days from now.
两天后，她就要让自己着迷，就在教室里。
As soon as he said it, I was terrified.
他一说，我就被吓到了。
For all my book learning, in some raw, anxious way I was still 10 years old and overwhelmed.
尽管我在书本上学习了很多知识，但从某种原始、焦虑的角度来看，我仍然只有 10 岁，不知所措。
There was going to be a demon in this classroom-- an actual agent of spiritual evil-- who was counting on people not believing in him.
这间教室里将会有一个恶魔——一个精神邪恶的实际代理人——他指望人们不相信他。
People would ask this demon questions, and this demon would answer, speaking with the voice of Satan, and everyone would nod and no one would know the real agenda of this creature.
人们会问这个恶魔问题，这个恶魔会回答，用撒旦的声音说话，每个人都会点头，没有人会知道这个生物的真正议程。
I was the only conservative Christian I knew of in that class, which meant that I was the only one who could save us from, well, from being corrupted by evil in some direct, horrible way.
我是我所认识的那个班级中唯一的保守派基督徒，这意味着我是唯一一个能够拯救我们免遭邪恶以某种直接、可怕的方式腐蚀的人。
I wasn't at all sure what the demon would do or say.
我完全不确定恶魔会做什么或说什么。
All I knew was that what had been a simple academic pursuit had suddenly turned into the most serious spiritual test of my life.
我只知道，原本简单的学术追求突然变成了我一生中最严峻的精神考验。
Only, I was really not up to the task.
只是，我确实无法胜任这个任务。
My faith had wandered.
我的信仰已经迷失了。
I had gone to Catholic mass.
我去参加了天主教弥撒。
I had several gay friends.
我有几个同性恋朋友。
I had said skeptical things about the authorship of Hebrews.
我曾对希伯来书的作者身份表示怀疑。
Now it was as if the god of my old Christianity, the real God, the straightforward God, the God who the Bible plainly states is there and whom I had become too highfalutin to simply accept, was calling me back to the battlefield.
现在，就好像我原来的基督教的上帝，真正的上帝，直截了当的上帝，圣经明确指出的上帝就在那里，而我已经变得太高调而无法简单地接受他，正在召唤我回到战场。
And I had two days to get into spiritual shape.
我有两天的时间来进入精神状态。
I started fasting immediately, and holed up in my room for hours.
我立即开始禁食，并在房间里躲了几个小时。
I prayed, "Lord, Jesus, please protect me in this coming battle.
我祈祷：“主啊，耶稣，请在这场即将到来的战斗中保护我。
Build a wall of protection around the classroom, and protect all my fellow students.
在教室周围筑起一道防护墙，保护我所有的同学。
Give me the wisdom to know what to say, the courage to face this evil in your name and please, please, please, please protect me."
请赐予我智慧，让我知道该说什么，赐予我勇气，以你的名义面对这场邪恶，请保护我。”
I repeated this over and over for the next two days.
在接下来的两天里，我一遍又一遍地重复着这一点。
I didn't watch TV.
我没看电视。
I didn't use my computer.
我没有使用我的电脑。
I couldn't let anything distract me, because I knew that if I failed-- well, you probably saw The Exorcist , same idea.
我不能让任何事情分散我的注意力，因为我知道如果我失败了——好吧，你可能会看到《驱魔人》，同样的想法。
This was a magic monster, one who could probably smell the Holy Spirit dwelling inside me, and who would find some way to attack.
这是一只魔法怪物，大概能闻到住在我体内的圣灵的味道，并且会想办法攻击。
All this was scary, but I have to admit, it was exciting, too, which is basically what the conservative Christian's whole life is like.
所有这一切都很可怕，但我不得不承认，这也很令人兴奋，这基本上就是保守派基督徒的整个生活。
There's temptation on every side, you have to constantly immerse yourself in prayer, in the Bible, in the community of faith.
诱惑无处不在，你必须不断地沉浸在祈祷、圣经、信仰团体中。
But with that fear comes the thrill of getting to be an instrument of goodness in an evil world.
但伴随着这种恐惧而来的是成为邪恶世界中善良工具的兴奋。
And for me now, with this impending demon, here it suddenly was, years after I'd given up expecting it.
现在对我来说，这个迫在眉睫的恶魔，在我放弃期待多年之后，它突然出现了。
I'd been groomed for this battle since I was a little kid.
我从小就为这场战斗做好了准备。
This was my chance to be a hero for the faith, just like my namesake, King David.
这是我成为信仰英雄的机会，就像我的同名者大卫王一样。
I had read the Bible stories about him hundreds of times.
我已经读过数百遍有关他的圣经故事。
I walked in the class that Thursday wearing a cross necklace I had lately been setting aside, and I slapped down my New International Version Study Bible right there in front of me on the table.
那个星期四，我戴着一条最近搁置一旁的十字架项链走进课堂，然后把我面前的桌子上的新国际版研读圣经扔了下来。
I just stared at it and prayed and didn't talk to anyone.
我只是盯着它祈祷，没有和任何人说话。
I was trembling, partly from fear and tension, and partly, of course, from hunger.
我浑身发抖，部分原因是恐惧和紧张，当然还有部分原因是饥饿。
And then the medium came in, an overweight woman of about 55.
然后灵媒进来了，是一位大约 55 岁的超重女性。
Faded jeans, faded T-shirt, tacky bead necklaces and long, graying hair.
褪色的牛仔裤、褪色的T恤、俗气的珠项链和灰白的长发。
She had a friend with her who acted as her assistant.
她有一个朋友和她一起，担任她的助理。
And this friend, also frumpy, said that the medium often had several different spirits come through her in a session, so we might notice her voice changing.
这位同样古板的朋友说，在一次会议中，媒介经常有几种不同的精神通过她，所以我们可能会注意到她的声音发生了变化。
They dimmed the lights slightly.
他们把灯光稍微调暗了一些。
The medium went into her trance.
灵媒进入了她的恍惚状态。
And then her assistant said, she's just reached her spirit guide, who's an Indian chief from the Hopi tribe who died in the 1800s.
然后她的助手说，她刚刚找到了她的精神向导，他是霍皮部落的印第安酋长，死于 1800 年代。
Does anyone have any questions?
有人有任何疑问吗？
An old sort of hippie-ish woman, an Indian spirit guide.
一位古老的嬉皮士女人，一位印度精神向导。
This started seeming less sinister and more like something out of community theater.
这开始看起来不那么险恶，更像是社区剧院里的东西。
But, of course I told myself, that's exactly what Satan would want me to think, because if the devil doesn't want us to believe in him, this was a really perfect disguise.
但是，我当然告诉自己，这正是撒旦希望我这么想的，因为如果魔鬼不想让我们相信他，那么这就是一个非常完美的伪装。
But, then again, how would I know the difference?
但是，话又说回来，我怎么知道其中的区别呢？
And just then, the medium moaned and rolled her head, and her friend announced, she is now channeling the spirit of King David.
就在这时，灵媒呻吟着转过头，她的朋友宣布，她现在正在传递大卫王的精神。
King David.
大卫王。
Hell, I was a Bible scholar, this was my turf.
天哪，我是一名圣经学者，这是我的地盘。
I flipped to the Psalms, the book that David is supposed to have written, and found a question I had always been curious about.
我翻到《诗篇》，这本应该是大卫写的书，发现了一个我一直好奇的问题。
When the teacher asked, does anyone have a question for King David?, my hand shot up.
当老师问“有人有问题要问大卫王吗？”时，我举起了手。
The professor called on me and I rose to my feet.
教授叫了我一声，我站了起来。
And, still staring intently at my open Bible, and with a voice that was actually quivering, I said, "Yes, um, King David?
我仍然专注地盯着打开的圣经，声音实际上在颤抖，我说：“是的，嗯，大卫王？
I notice here that some of your Psalms are called Maskils, and some are called Miktams, and according to my footnotes, these are musical terms.
我在这里注意到你的一些诗篇被称为 Maskils，有些被称为 Miktams，根据我的脚注，这些都是音乐术语。
But scholars don't actually know what they mean.
但学者们实际上并不知道它们的含义。
Could you please explain the difference?"
您能解释一下其中的区别吗？”
There was a brief pause.
短暂的停顿。
I was too scared to look at her face.
我太害怕了，不敢看她的脸。
Finally, the medium said, "Yes, I could explain.
最后，媒体说：“是的，我可以解释。
But the answer would be very technical, and I don't think it would interest anybody." And her friend said, "Next question."
但答案将是非常技术性的，我认为任何人都不会感兴趣。”她的朋友说：“下一个问题。”
It all happened so quickly that I wasn't sure how to understand it.
这一切发生得太快了，我不知道该如何理解。
I decided that the demon, who would clearly have known the answer, just didn't blurt it out because he wanted to avoid a fight with a real Christian.
我认为恶魔显然知道答案，只是没有脱口而出，因为他想避免与真正的基督徒发生争斗。
The second the bell rang, the women left the classroom without a word.
铃声一响，女人们一言不发地离开了教室。
I thanked God for the victory, and went to grab some pizza.
我感谢上帝赐予我胜利，然后去买了一些披萨。
While I was sitting at a booth, waiting for my slice to arrive, I mentally replayed exactly what had happened.
当我坐在摊位上等待我的切片到达时，我在脑海中准确地回放了所发生的事情。
And I realized that God hadn't technically won.
我意识到上帝在技术上并没有获胜。
A win for God would have been the demon calling me out in a creepy voice, and me brandishing the cross and saying, "In the name of Jesus, I command you," and maybe papers flying everywhere.
对上帝来说，胜利就是恶魔用令人毛骨悚然的声音呼唤我，我挥舞着十字架说：“奉耶稣的名，我命令你”，也许报纸到处乱飞。
Instead, what had happened was that a liar had come into our classroom, and I'd beaten her with scholarship.
相反，发生的事情是一个骗子走进了我们的教室，我用奖学金打败了她。
What's more, it hadn't even been close.
更重要的是，它甚至还没有接近。
Book learning had been easier, swifter, and more powerful than prayer and fasting combined.
书本学习比祈祷和禁食加起来更容易、更快捷、更有力量。
Right then, for the first time, I saw myself from the outside.
就在那时，我第一次从外面看到自己。
And what I saw was that my belief in demons was actually kind of silly.
我发现我对恶魔的信仰实际上有点愚蠢。
My next immediate thought was, well, if demons don't exist except in stories I hear from other people, what about angels?
我的下一个想法是，好吧，如果除了我从其他人那里听到的故事之外，恶魔不存在，那么天使呢？
For that matter, what about the Virgin birth?
就此而言，童贞女诞生又如何呢？
Oh, my god.
我的天啊。
And before I knew it, I felt like I was falling helplessly, because it turns out you can't actually make yourself believe something if the doubts seem more likely.
在我意识到这一点之前，我感觉自己正在无助地倒下，因为事实证明，如果怀疑看起来更有可能，你实际上无法让自己相信某件事。
When I think about it now, that one rational question put to the demon, that shipwrecked my faith.
现在回想起来，那个向恶魔提出的理性问题，摧毁了我的信仰。
I had kicked open one door too many, and I could no longer stay inside where I felt safe.
我已经多次踢开一扇门，我无法再呆在我感到安全的地方了。
For a few years, I kept going to church.
几年来，我一直去教堂。
I kept trying to believe.
我一直试图相信。
But after awhile, I let go altogether.
但过了一段时间，我就彻底放手了。
If you ask my family, they'd claim that when I fought that nonexistent demon, Satan actually won, that he couldn't have chosen a better answer to make the whole idea of demons seem ridiculous, and kill my faith forever.
如果你问我的家人，他们会声称，当我与那个不存在的恶魔战斗时，撒旦实际上赢了，他不可能选择更好的答案，让整个恶魔的想法显得荒谬，并永远扼杀我的信仰。
Dave Dickerson in New York.
戴夫·迪克森在纽约。
Credits Ira Glass Well, our program was produced today by Sarah Koenig and myself, with Alex Blumberg, Jane Feltes, John Jeter, Lisa Pollak, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
感谢 Ira Glass 嗯，我们今天的节目是由 Sarah Koenig 和我自己制作的，还有 Alex Blumberg、Jane Feltes、John Jeter、Lisa Pollak、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike。
Our senior producer is Jule Snyder, Adrianne Mathiowetz runs our website.
我们的高级制作人是 Jule Snyder，Adrianne Mathiowetz 负责运营我们的网站。
Production help from Seth Lind, [UNINTELLIGIBLE] [?
Seth Lind 提供制作帮助，[无法理解] [？
Navarro ?], Bruce Wallace and P.J.
纳瓦罗？]、布鲁斯·华莱士和 P.J.
Vogt.
沃格特。
Music help from Jessica Hopper.
杰西卡·霍珀的音乐帮助。
Happy birthday, Jessica.
生日快乐，杰西卡。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
[致谢]《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight for our program by our boss, Mr. Torey Malatia.
[资金来源] 我们的老板 Torey Malatia 先生对 WBEZ 项目进行了管理监督。
And you know, part of management oversight is that he calls us into his office once a year for annual evaluations and reviews.
你知道，管理监督的一部分是他每年一次把我们叫到他的办公室进行年度评估和审查。
I actually have right here a recording of one of the sessions.
实际上我这里有其中一次会议的录音。
C'mon you can take it.
来吧，你可以接受它。
Soldier 2 Ah.
士兵2啊。
[BLEEP].
[哔]。
Ah, [BLEEP].
啊，[哔]。
I'm Ira Glass, back next week, with more stories of This American Life .
我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。