339: Break-Up - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #339 | February 7, 2025 339: Break-Up Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 339 集 | 2025 年 2 月 7 日 339：分手注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
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如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
序言：序言 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥的 Ira Glass，这就是美国生活。
It's so embarrassing.
太尴尬了
I don't want to get upset.
我不想生气。
But like, he has a car.
但就像，他有一辆车。
So the last time I saw him on purpose was just in the car in front of my house.
所以我最后一次故意见到他就是在我家门前的车里。
I don't know.
我不知道。
It's just bad.
这太糟糕了。
Bad like when you walk out of your house you think like, there his car was?
糟糕的是，当你走出家门时，你会想，他的车在那儿？
Yeah.
是的。
I still look for it.
我还在寻找。
It's crazy.
太疯狂了。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
OK.
好的。
Now we're about a block from your house.
现在我们离你家只有一个街区了。
Like in front of that building right there.
就像在那栋大楼前面一样。
This like churchy-looking building was where we were parked when we first had the conversation where we decided we were going to be exclusive.
当我们第一次谈话时，我们就停在这座看起来像教堂的建筑里，我们决定要独家经营。
Which was a joke.
这是一个笑话。
Like I don't really date around, and I don't think he does, either.
就像我不怎么约会一样，我想他也不会。
But it's kind of a big conversation.
但这是一次大谈话。
But yeah, we were parked in the middle of that block right where that white car is.
但是，是的，我们停在那个街区的中间，就在那辆白色汽车所在的地方。
And so every time you walk down this street, you'll think like, oh yeah, there's the spot?
所以每次你走在这条街上，你都会想，哦，是的，有这个地方吗？
I don't walk down this street.
我不走这条街。
I just don't.
我只是不知道。
Like I haven't even seen him for a month.
就好像我已经一个月没见到他了。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
When I walked around Lauren's neighborhood with her, it had been two months since her boyfriend broke up with her.
当我和劳伦在她家附近散步时，她的男朋友和她分手已经两个月了。
They'd gone out for about 10 months before that.
在此之前他们已经出去了大约10个月。
She was incredibly nice to let herself be taped in still a pretty raw state.
她非常高兴地让自己在一个非常原始的状态下被录音。
But even in the middle of that raw state, she was acutely aware, and said herself that everything she was going through was a cliché-- a cliché that she was forced to live through.
但即使在那种原始状态中，她也敏锐地意识到，并告诉自己，她所经历的一切都是陈词滥调——她被迫经历的陈词滥调。
That's the crazy thing about it.
这就是它的疯狂之处。
Breaking up with someone is literally the most common thing.
与某人分手实际上是最常见的事情。
Like everyone you know broke up with everyone they ever dated until maybe the person they're with right now, if they're with someone right now.
就像你认识的每个人都与他们曾经约会过的每个人分手一样，直到现在和他们在一起的人，如果他们现在和某人在一起的话。
But when it happens to you, it feels so specific.
但当它发生在你身上时，感觉是如此具体。
[LAUGHS] I don't want to say I can't get over it in like a flippant way.
[笑]我不想说我无法以轻率的方式克服它。
Like you kind of can't get over it.
就像你无法克服它一样。
You're like, what?
你就像，什么？
This is what's happening?
这是怎么回事？
It's so shocking.
太令人震惊了。
If I had to say one thing about Lauren, it's that she was full of feelings that completely contradicted each other, which I guess just comes with this territory.
如果我不得不说劳伦的一件事，那就是她充满了完全矛盾的感情，我想这正是这个领域所特有的。
Like she emphatically did not want him to call.
就像她坚决不想让他打电话一样。
But also maybe a little bit wanted him to call.
但也许也有点想让他打电话。
She missed him, and she didn't want to stop thinking about him.
她想念他，她不想停止想他。
But she also did all this elaborate math to calculate the day that she would finally be over him and not thinking about him and with somebody else.
但她也做了所有这些复杂的数学计算，计算出有一天她最终会忘记他，不再去想他和其他人。
We get to an area where she had been on walks with the ex-boyfriend.
我们到达了她和前男友一起散步的地方。
There are benches and a sidewalk promenade.
有长凳和人行道长廊。
I don't know.
我不知道。
We used to just-- it's not that we took a ton of walks, but we took some walks.
我们过去只是——并不是我们走了很多路，而是我们走了一些路。
And what happened down here?
下面发生了什么？
Lauren Waterman [SIGHS]
劳伦·沃特曼 [叹气]
You know, I can't say that anything of substance happened.
你知道，我不能说发生了任何实质性的事情。
It's not like any one specific thing.
它不像任何一件具体的事情。
It's just-- I don't know.
只是——我不知道。
I know.
我知道。
There really was.
确实有。
That's the thing that's so weird.
这就是奇怪的事情。
It's like you put so much energy into something, and then one day, it's time to stop.
就好像你在某件事上投入了很多精力，然后有一天，是时候停下来了。
I don't know.
我不知道。
During a breakup, you just stare at what happened.
分手时，你只能盯着发生的事情。
There's a before, and there's an after, and you just can't believe it.
有前有后，你简直不敢相信。
Lauren says she still doesn't even understand what went wrong between her and him.
劳伦说她仍然不明白她和他之间出了什么问题。
And that's part of it, too, so much of the time.
很多时候，这也是其中的一部分。
Well, we got the idea for today's radio show from an email that a listener sent.
好吧，我们从一位听众发送的电子邮件中得到了今天广播节目的想法。
It says, "Dear This American Life, I'm suffering from a gut-wrenching breakup with my former boyfriend and I searched your site for shows about breakups and general heartbreak to commiserate, but to my surprise, I didn't find many stories specifically regarding the act of breaking up.
上面写着：“亲爱的美国生活，我正遭受与前男友的痛苦分手，我在你的网站上搜索了有关分手和普遍心碎的节目以表示同情，但令我惊讶的是，我没有找到很多专门关于分手行为的故事。
I hope you consider it.
我希望你考虑一下。
A show like that would really cheer me up."
像这样的演出真的会让我高兴起来。”
And so with that in mind, we devote our show today to breakups.
因此，考虑到这一点，我们今天的节目主要讨论分手问题。
Partly today, we have an anatomy of the completely contradictory feelings that are part of a breakup.
今天，我们对分手时完全矛盾的感受进行了剖析。
I think that's what makes it such a special and particularly cursed state.
我认为这就是它成为如此特殊且特别受诅咒的状态的原因。
And we have stories today about people trying in some very unusual, very resourceful ways to make themselves feel better during a breakup.
今天我们有一些故事，讲述人们在分手期间尝试用一些非常不寻常、非常足智多谋的方式让自己感觉更好。
The key word there would be "trying."
关键词是“尝试”。
Our show today in four acts.
我们今天的演出分四幕。
In Act One, Starlee Kine heads out on a breakup mission unlike any we have ever heard of.
在第一幕中，斯塔莉·凯恩开始执行一项我们从未听说过的分手任务。
In Act Two, an eight year old heads out into the world to get some answers about her parents' breakup.
在第二幕中，一名八岁的女孩前往世界寻找父母分手的答案。
In Act Three, a man who has turned his back on the ways of his people-- his people, in this case, being divorce lawyers.
在第三幕中，一个男人背弃了他的人民的生活方式——在这个例子中，他的人民是离婚律师。
Act Four, Merrill Markoe notes one possibly overlooked way to mend a broken heart, and it involves a soggy, plastic, disky thing.
第四幕，梅里尔·马科指出了一种可能被忽视的治愈破碎心的方法，它涉及一种潮湿的、塑料的、盘状的东西。
You'll just have to trust me on that one.
你只需要相信我这一点。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, Dr. Phil.
第一幕，菲尔博士。
When one of our regular contributors, Starlee Kine, was in the middle of getting over a breakup, she tried to feel better in a way that few people ever try, and that maybe even she shouldn't have.
当我们的一位定期撰稿人斯塔莉·凯恩 (Starlee Kine) 正处于分手的阴影中时，她试图以一种很少有人尝试过的方式让自己感觉更好，也许连她也不应该这样做。
Here's Starlee.
这是斯塔莉。
Before I explain why I decided to write and record a breakup song even though I have no musical ability and can't play an instrument of any kind, I should probably explain a bit about the breakup itself.
在我解释为什么我决定写和录制一首分手歌曲之前，尽管我没有音乐能力，也不会演奏任何类型的乐器，我可能应该解释一下分手本身。
It was only after Anthony broke up with me that all the warning signs I had missed came sharply into focus.
直到安东尼和我分手后，我错过的所有警告信号才变得清晰起来。
Like the time he told me he didn't like taking pictures of girlfriends because it was a downer to have those photos around once a relationship was over.
就像有一次他告诉我，他不喜欢给女朋友拍照，因为一旦关系结束，那些照片到处都是，会让人感到沮丧。
I'd had a crush on him since the day we met, but he always had a girlfriend in Canada.
从我们认识的那天起我就迷恋上了他，但他一直在加拿大有一个女朋友。
Then she broke up with him, and we got together.
后来她和他分手了，我们又在一起了。
A week after that, he told me I was the one, which, in retrospect, was probably the biggest warning sign of all.
一周后，他告诉我，我就是那个人，现在回想起来，这可能是最大的警告信号。
It was, hands down, the corniest relationship I've ever been in.
毫无疑问，这是我经历过的最老套的关系。
And by corniest, I mean greatest.
我所说的“最老道”是指“最伟大”。
We'd pass entire evenings just complimenting each other.
我们整个晚上都在互相赞美中度过。
We took hand-holding to new heights.
我们将握手提升到了新的高度。
And we listened to hours and hours of music, teenager style, playing one song after another while smiling a lot.
我们听了好几个小时的青少年风格的音乐，一边微笑着一边播放一首又一首歌曲。
I don't quite remember how our Phil Collins phase began.
我不太记得我们的菲尔·柯林斯阶段是如何开始的。
I think it was one of those things that started off ironically, with Anthony lip-syncing, adorably, to "Against All Odds" one night.
我认为这是讽刺性的事情之一，安东尼有一天晚上可爱地对口型唱了“Against All Odds”。
But over time, it became less and less ironic, until one day, we were actual fans.
但随着时间的推移，它变得越来越不具有讽刺意味，直到有一天，我们成为了真正的粉丝。
(SINGING) How can I just let you walk away, just let you leave without a trace, when I stand here taking every breath with you?
（唱）我站在这里陪着你呼吸，我怎能让你走开，让你走得无影无踪？
Ooh, ooh.
哦哦。
You're the only one who really knew me at all.
你是唯一一个真正了解我的人。
We liked how honest and sad it was.
我们喜欢它的诚实和悲伤。
"How can I just let you walk away, just let you leave without a trace?
“我怎么能让你就这样走开，让你走得无影无踪？
You're the only one who really knew me at all." We pictured Phil Collins at the piano writing it, the tears running down his face.
你是唯一一个真正了解我的人。”我们想象菲尔·柯林斯在钢琴前写下这首曲子，泪水从他的脸上流下来。
(SINGING) I wish I could just make you turn around, turn around and see me cry.
（唱）我希望我能让你转过身来，转过身来看到我哭泣。
There's so much I need to say to you, so many reasons why.
我有很多话要对你说，有很多理由。
Anthony broke up with me on New Year's Eve.
安东尼在除夕夜和我分手了。
I told you-- corny.
我告诉过你——老生常谈。
I didn't really see it coming, and I definitely didn't want it to happen.
我并没有真正预见到它的到来，而且我绝对不希望它发生。
He said, you're going to be OK.
他说，你会没事的。
I just cried and cried.
我只是哭啊哭啊。
I wanted to stop it, to fix it.
我想阻止它，修复它。
I searched deep inside myself for the right words to say, and out of my mouth popped this.
我在内心深处寻找合适的话语，然后从我嘴里说出了这句话。
How can you just let me walk away?
你怎么可以让我走开？
I'm the only one who really knew you at all.
我是唯一一个真正了解你的人。
And I meant it.
我是认真的。
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that, in that moment, no one could have conveyed how I was feeling better than Phil Collins.
事实上，我什至可以说，在那一刻，没有人能比菲尔·柯林斯（Phil Collins）更能表达我的感受。
(SINGING) Take a good look at me now 'cause I'll still be standing here.
（唱歌）现在好好看看我，因为我仍然会站在这里。
And you coming back to me is against all odds.
而你回到我身边是排除万难的。
It's the chance I've got to take.
这是我必须抓住的机会。
If I thought I'd been in the Phil Collins phase before, it was nothing compared to what came next.
如果我以为自己以前处于菲尔·柯林斯阶段，那么与接下来的阶段相比，那根本不算什么。
I was no longer listening to a song for pleasure, but for pain.
我听歌不再是为了快乐，而是为了痛苦。
They were breakup songs, and hearing them was the only thing that made me feel better.
它们是分手歌曲，听到它们是唯一让我感觉好一点的事情。
And by better, I mean worse.
我所说的更好，是指更糟。
There's something so satisfying about listening to sad songs.
听悲伤的歌曲有一种令人满足的感觉。
They're like how you would actually be spending your day if you were allowed to just break down and sob and grab hold of everyone you met.
这就像如果你被允许崩溃、哭泣并抓住你遇到的每个人，你实际上会如何度过这一天。
They make you feel less alone with your crazy thoughts.
它们让你不再因疯狂的想法而感到孤独。
They don't judge you.
他们不会评判你。
In fact, they understand you.
事实上，他们理解你。
A breakup song won't ever suggest you start online dating or that you're better off without him.
分手歌曲永远不会建议你开始网上约会，或者没有他你会过得更好。
They tell you that you're worse without him, which is exactly what you want to hear because it's how you feel.
他们告诉你，没有他你会变得更糟，这正是你想听到的，因为这就是你的感受。
I didn't want to be cheered up.
我不想被高兴起来。
I didn't want to bounce back.
我不想反弹。
I didn't want to meet someone new.
我不想认识新朋友。
I wanted to wallow, big time, deeply, and with the least amount of perspective possible.
我想沉迷其中，沉迷其中，沉迷其中，并以尽可能少的视角。
And the only way to do that was by turning off my phone and turning up the sad, sad music, like this song that I love by the band The Magnetic Fields.
唯一的方法就是关掉手机，打开悲伤的音乐，就像我喜欢的磁场乐队的这首歌。
(SUBJECT) THE MAGNETIC FIELDS: (SINGING) I don't want to get over you.
（主题）磁场：（唱歌）我不想忘记你。
I guess I could take a sleeping pill and sleep at will and not have to go through what I go through.
我想我可以服用安眠药并随意睡觉，而不必经历我所经历的事情。
I guess I should take Prozac, right?
我想我应该服用百忧解，对吗？
And just smile all night at somebody new, somebody not too bright, but sweet and kind, who would try to get you off my mind.
整个晚上都对一个新认识的人微笑，一个不太聪明，但甜蜜和善良的人，他会试图让你从我的脑海中消失。
I could leave this agony behind, which is just what I'd do if I wanted to, but I don't want to get over you.
我可以把这种痛苦抛在脑后，如果我愿意的话我也会这么做，但我不想忘记你。
It's great because the lyrics perfectly articulate this feeling you didn't even know you had.
这很棒，因为歌词完美地表达了这种你甚至不知道自己有过的感觉。
Then there's the Bonnie Raitt song, "I Can't Make You Love Me."
然后是邦妮·雷特的歌曲“我不能让你爱我”。
(SINGING) I'll close my eyes, then I won't see the love you don't feel when you're holding me.
（唱）我会闭上眼睛，这样我就不会看到你抱着我时感受不到的爱。
The song was written by Mike Reid and Allen Shamblin after they read this little article in the newspaper about a guy who'd gotten drunk and shot up his girlfriend's car.
这首歌是迈克·里德（Mike Reid）和艾伦·沙布林（Allen Shamblin）在报纸上读到这篇小文章后创作的，这篇文章讲述了一个男人喝醉后开枪射击女友的汽车的故事。
At his sentencing, he was asked if he learned any lessons from what he'd done.
在宣判时，有人问他是否从自己的行为中吸取了教训。
And he said, "Yes.
他说：“是的。
You can't make a woman love you if she don't."
如果女人不爱你，你就无法让她爱你。”
(SINGING) 'Cause I can't make you love me if you don't.
（唱歌）因为如果你不爱我，我就无法让你爱我。
You can't make your heart feel something it won't.
你无法让你的心感受到它不会感受到的东西。
Before the breakup, I had no idea how much breakup music was out there.
在分手之前，我不知道外面有多少分手音乐。
For example, every song ever written.
例如，曾经写过的每首歌。
Or at least every third.
或者至少每三分之一。
But once you're heartbroken, you notice it everywhere.
但一旦你心碎了，你就会发现它无处不在。
You find yourself in the supermarket, listening to a song you've heard before, but never really heard, thinking to yourself, it's just so true.
你发现自己在超市里，听着一首你以前听过但从未真正听过的歌曲，心想，这真是太真实了。
(SINGING) In my life, there's been heartache and pain.
（唱）在我的生活中，有过心痛和痛苦。
I don't know if I can face it again.
我不知道我是否还能再次面对。
Can't stop now.
现在根本停不下来
I've traveled so far to change this lonely life.
我走了这么远的路，就是为了改变这种孤独的生活。
I wanna know what love is.
我想知道爱是什么。
It's not just that you overlook the cheesiness.
这不仅仅是因为你忽视了俗气。
You embrace it.
你拥抱它。
You do want to know what love is.
你确实想知道爱是什么。
There's nothing restrained or subtle about being crushed by the person you care most about in the world.
被世界上你最关心的人压垮是没有任何克制或微妙的。
It's big and gaudy, and so it only makes sense that songs about it are, too.
它又大又华丽，所以关于它的歌曲也是有意义的。
It was after listening to all these songs for months that I knew what I had to do.
在听了所有这些歌曲几个月后，我知道我必须做什么。
I had to write one myself.
我必须自己写一篇。
I needed to take charge of my pain.
我需要掌控我的痛苦。
I needed to take wallowing to the next level.
我需要将沉迷提升到一个新的水平。
It wasn't enough just to be lying on the floor in my pajamas, listening to these songs at 3:00 in the afternoon.
仅仅在下午 3:00 穿着睡衣躺在地板上听这些歌曲是不够的。
I wanted to be the songs.
我想成为歌曲。
I wanted to be the pain.
我想成为痛苦。
I wanted to be inside the stereo speakers, to be the sound waves coming into my own head.
我想要进入立体声扬声器内部，成为进入我自己头脑的声波。
I wanted to be the thing creating the feeling I was feeling.
我想成为创造我所感受到的感觉的人。
And I knew just what kind of breakup song I would write.
我知道我会写什么样的分手歌曲。
[MUSIC - "YOU DON'T HAVE TO SAY YOU LOVE ME" BY DUSTY SPRINGFIELD]
[音乐 - 达斯蒂·斯普林菲尔德的《你不必说你爱我》]
Torch songs are about the most pathetic, desperate, and lonely part of yourself-- the part you'd never admit to your friends, the part of you that knows, without a shadow of a doubt, that you would take him back.
火炬歌讲述的是你自己最可悲、最绝望、最孤独的部分——你永远不会向你的朋友承认的部分，你毫无疑问地知道你会带他回来的部分。
Not only that, he wouldn't have to beg or even apologize.
不仅如此，他不需要乞求，甚至不需要道歉。
Dusty Springfield made a whole career out of these songs.
达斯蒂·斯普林菲尔德 (Dusty Springfield) 的整个职业生涯都源于这些歌曲。
"I Just Can't Make It Alone," "I Only Want to Be with You," "All I See Is You," "Losing You," or this one, which might be the most pitiful sentiment ever uttered out loud.
《我只是无法独自度过》、《我只想和你在一起》、《我所看到的都是你》、《失去你》，或者这首，可能是有史以来最可怜的情感了。
(SINGING) You don't have to say you love me.
（唱）你不必说你爱我。
Just be close at hand.
只要近在咫尺。
You don't have to stay forever.
你不必永远留下来。
I will understand.
我会理解的。
Believe me.
相信我。
Believe me.
相信我。
I can't help but love you.
我情不自禁地爱你。
But believe me.
但相信我。
I'll never tie you down.
我永远不会束缚你。
It's just so pathetic.
真是太可悲了。
And deep down, it's how I felt, too.
在内心深处，我也是这么想的。
And it felt good to have someone just come out and say it.
有人站出来说出这句话感觉很好。
There are some words you can never speak, but somehow you can sing.
有些话你永远无法说出来，但你却可以唱出来。
So I knew what kind of song I was going to write, but I had no idea how to go about writing it.
所以我知道我要写什么样的歌，但我不知道如何去写。
I needed some advice.
我需要一些建议。
And out of thousands of musicians who write about heartbreak, there was only one I cared to talk to.
在成千上万写关于心碎的音乐家中，只有一位我愿意与之交谈。
Yeah, I can hear you great.
是的，我能听到你的声音，非常棒。
Phil Collins, of course.
当然是菲尔·柯林斯。
What?
什么？
Is that weird?
这很奇怪吗？
I got it into my head that it'd be great to ask Phil Collins how to write a breakup song, the same way you might think to yourself, I'd really love to talk to Michael Jordan about free throws.
我想到如果能问菲尔·柯林斯如何写一首分手歌就好了，就像你可能会想的那样，我真的很想和迈克尔·乔丹谈论罚球。
I never thought it would actually happen.
我从没想过这会真的发生。
Then, against all odds, it turned out I had a friend who was on the road with Phil Collins, on his Genesis reunion tour, shooting footage for the DVD extras.
然后，尽管困难重重，我还是有一个朋友和 Phil Collins 一起在路上，参加他的 Genesis 重聚巡演，为 DVD 的临时演员拍摄镜头。
He gave me his contact info, and I sent him an email.
他给了我他的联系方式，我给他发了一封电子邮件。
"Dear Mr. Collins, I have a rather unusual request." Then I waited, refreshing my inbox every three seconds.
“亲爱的柯林斯先生，我有一个相当不寻常的请求。”然后我等待，每三秒刷新一次收件箱。
When his email finally appeared, he was friendly and casual.
当他的电子邮件最终出现时，他显得友好而随意。
We set up a time to talk.
我们约好了时间谈话。
In my mind, he was already so intimately involved in my breakup that it seemed crazy that he didn't actually know about it.
在我看来，他已经如此密切地参与了我的分手，以至于他实际上并不知道这件事，这似乎很疯狂。
So I told him.
所以我告诉他。
Well, I'm going to tell you the whole story of my breakup and stuff, OK?
好吧，我要告诉你我分手的整个故事，好吗？
Is that OK?
可以吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, it's your 45 minutes.
是的，这是你的 45 分钟。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
OK.
好的。
Well, it also involves you.
嗯，这也涉及到你。
So I was dating my boyfriend, Anthony, and he kind of broke up with me on New Year's Eve.
所以我正在和我的男朋友安东尼约会，他在新年前夜和我分手了。
Oh, nice.
哦，不错。
Yeah.
是的。
Starlee Kine Whereas before, it was Anthony and I talking about Phil, now it was Phil and I talking about Anthony.
Starlee Kine 以前是安东尼和我谈论菲尔，现在是菲尔和我谈论安东尼。
Actually pretty tidy, when you think about it.
其实仔细想想，还是挺整洁的。
And at one point, I turned to him and it just flew out of my mouth.
有一次，我转向他，这句话就从我嘴里飞了出来。
I just looked at him and I was like, I can't believe you're just going to let me--
我只是看着他，我就想，我不敢相信你会让我——
And before long, Phil Collins and I were commiserating about heartbreak, which he also went through recently.
不久之后，菲尔·柯林斯和我对他最近也经历过的心碎表示同情。
So I mean, I've just been through a marriage breakup.
所以我的意思是，我刚刚经历了婚姻破裂。
And you talk about New Year's Eve.
你还谈到除夕夜。
My divorce was final on my birthday.
我的离婚是在我生日那天最终决定的。
Oh, really?
哦真的吗？
Phil Collins And I didn't want it at all.
Phil Collins：我根本不想要它。
So that's something that-- you know, you always remember these things.
所以，你知道，你总是记得这些事情。
Like you'll always remember New Year's Eve, and I'll always remember my birthday.
就像你永远记得除夕夜，我也永远记得我的生日一样。
I know.
我知道。
It makes me want to skip those dates, doesn't it?
这让我想跳过那些日期，不是吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Starlee Kine Up until this conversation, I never thought I had much in common with Phil Collins.
斯塔莉·凯恩 在这次谈话之前，我从未想过我和菲尔·柯林斯有很多共同点。
He started playing in Genesis at the age of 19.
他19岁时开始在Genesis打球。
I didn't.
我没有。
He performed in Live Aid, while I only watched it on TV.
他在《Live Aid》中表演，而我只在电视上看过。
He was in the movie Buster, which I never actually saw.
他出现在电影《巴斯特》中，但我从未真正看过。
But talking to him was easy.
但和他说话很容易。
He told me that, when he was in Genesis, he just played drums and sang.
他告诉我，当他在创世纪时，他只是打鼓和唱歌。
He didn't write.
他没有写。
"Against All Odds" was one of the first songs he wrote himself, when he was working on his first solo album.
《Against All Odds》是他在制作第一张个人专辑时自己创作的第一首歌曲之一。
That song, particularly, was written during my first divorce.
特别是那首歌是在我第一次离婚期间写的。
My first wife and the kids had gone, and I was just left there.
我的第一任妻子和孩子们都走了，我就被留在那里。
So it was written totally out of experience as opposed to "this is a what-if" song.
所以这首歌完全是根据经验写的，而不是“这是一首假设”歌曲。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Do you think you could have written that song if your wife hadn't left?
如果你的妻子没有离开，你认为你能写出那首歌吗？
Probably not.
可能不会。
I mean, frankly, if that personal stuff had not happened to me at that time, I probably would never have made an album.
我的意思是，坦率地说，如果当时没有发生那些个人的事情，我可能永远不会制作一张专辑。
And if I was to have made an album eventually, it would have been more of a jazz/rock thing because that was my output.
如果我最终要制作一张专辑，它会更像是爵士乐/摇滚乐，因为那是我的作品。
Apart from Genesis, I was in a band called Brand X.
除了 Genesis 之外，我还参加过一个名为 Brand X 的乐队。
And I was a player.
我是一名球员。
So no. Without that stuff, I wouldn't have felt the things I felt that made me sit at a piano night after night, day after day, writing stuff.
所以不。如果没有这些东西，我就不会感受到那些让我夜复一夜、日复一日地坐在钢琴前写作的东西。
Did it help?
有帮助吗？
Phil Collins Well, it helped inasmuch as-- it was kind of, well, when she hears this, it's all going to be OK.
菲尔·柯林斯：嗯，这很有帮助，因为——嗯，当她听到这个消息时，一切都会好起来的。
I did, yeah.
我做到了，是的。
Foolish, huh?
愚蠢吧？
I mean, I did.
我的意思是，我做到了。
Did you get over it?
你克服了吗？
Phil Collins There's various people in your life that you never quite get over.
菲尔·柯林斯 (Phil Collins) 在你的生活中，有各种各样的人是你永远无法忘记的。
I mean, that's kind of the cliché.
我的意思是，这有点陈词滥调。
And then sometimes, with me, for example, because of children, you are morally obligated, and if you want to be with the kids as much as possible, you have to be in touch with this person that's really hurt you.
有时，例如，和我在一起，因为孩子，你在道德上有义务，如果你想尽可能多地和孩子们在一起，你就必须与这个真正伤害过你的人保持联系。
So it's not like you can just walk away and leave without a trace because, in this instance, there's a couple of little guys that are looking up to you, saying, what am I going to do, Dad?
所以你不可能就这样走开，不留痕迹，因为在这种情况下，有几个小家伙正在看着你，说，爸爸，我该怎么办？
OK.
好的。
There are so many crazy things about this.
这方面有很多疯狂的事情。
First of all, even Phil Collins can't help but quote Phil Collins.
首先，即使是菲尔·柯林斯也忍不住引用了菲尔·柯林斯的话。
Second, if it hadn't been for his wife leaving him in 1979, Phil Collins would never have become Phil Collins.
其次，如果不是1979年他的妻子离开了他，菲尔·柯林斯永远不会成为菲尔·柯林斯。
Heartbreak turned a jazz/rock fusion drummer into an international pop icon.
心碎让一位爵士/摇滚融合鼓手成为国际流行偶像。
But the other crazy thing was how honest and normal he was about it.
但另一个疯狂的事情是他对此是多么诚实和正常。
Once again, Phil Collins put into words what I was feeling.
菲尔·柯林斯再次表达了我的感受。
There's a part of me-- and it is not a small part-- that wants my ex, Anthony, to hear the song I write and ask to come back.
我内心有一部分——而且不是一小部分——希望我的前任安东尼听到我写的歌曲并要求回来。
I told Phil that I'd been trying to write my songs, but they just didn't feel right.
我告诉菲尔我一直在尝试写歌，但感觉不太对劲。
They were too wordy or something.
他们太啰嗦什么的。
But when I tried to consult songs that I loved to see how it was done, even the lyrics to the best songs looked flat on the page.
但当我尝试查阅我喜欢的歌曲以了解它是如何完成的时，即使是最好的歌曲的歌词在页面上看起来也很平淡。
I wanted to know how to transform clichéd sentiment into a song that captured the entire range of human emotions.
我想知道如何将陈词滥调的情感转化为一首能够捕捉人类全部情感的歌曲。
I wanted to know how simple sentences like "love hurts.
我想知道像“爱让人受伤”这样的简单句子有多么简单。
Love scars" became--
爱情伤痕”变成了——
(SUBJECT) GRAM PARSONS AND EMMYLOU HARRIS: (SINGING) Love hurts.
（主题）格拉姆·帕森斯和艾米卢·哈里斯：（唱歌）爱会让人受伤。
Love scars.
爱伤痕。
Love wounds and mars.
爱的伤口和火星。
Most of the time, it's the direct-- I mean, if it's a good song, what makes it good is the fact that it's-- you know, so many people try to fluff things up or disguise them or make them a little bit too clever, but sometimes it's the simplest thing that actually reaches people.
大多数时候，它是直接的——我的意思是，如果这是一首好歌，那么它的好之处在于它——你知道，很多人试图把事情弄乱或掩饰它们，或者让它们变得有点太聪明，但有时它是真正打动人们的最简单的东西。
(SUBJECT) GRAM PARSONS AND EMMYLOU HARRIS: (SINGING) Love hurts.
（主题）格拉姆·帕森斯和艾米卢·哈里斯：（唱歌）爱会让人受伤。
Mm, love hurts.
嗯，爱情很伤人。
It actually looks corny when you look at it on the page.
当你在页面上查看它时，它实际上看起来很老套。
But then, you see, what becomes important then is the way that it's sung.
但是，你看，接下来变得重要的是它的演唱方式。
Yeah.
是的。
Phil Collins Because otherwise, you get-- and I don't mean any disrespect-- but you get into sort of Michael Bolton territory.
菲尔·柯林斯：否则的话，你会——我并没有任何不尊重的意思——但你会进入迈克尔·博尔顿的领域。
And I've got nothing against Michael.
我对迈克尔没有任何意见。
I'm just using him as an example.
我只是以他为例。
I'm sure people would use me as an example of something that gets overblown and polished as opposed to a simple idea, simply sung, and obviously sounds like it's sung with conviction.
我确信人们会用我作为例子，说明一些被夸大和修饰的东西，而不是一个简单的想法，简单地唱出来，而且显然听起来像是带着信念来唱的。
So now I had the advice.
所以现在我得到了建议。
I had the pain.
我很痛苦。
It was time to start writing.
是时候开始写作了。
It was pretty terrifying at first.
起初这非常可怕。
Every single word I put down seemed wrong, even the ones that seemed like they had to go in-- the no-brainers.
我写下的每一个字似乎都是错的，即使是那些看起来必须输入的字——那些理所当然的字。
I'd type the word love, then erase it, and then type it again.
我会输入“爱”这个词，然后将其删除，然后再次输入。
Then, one day, I was waiting for the train, and I started thinking about how that train reminded me of Anthony, and then how our love was sort of like a runaway train.
然后，有一天，我在等火车，我开始思考那列火车让我想起了安东尼，然后我们的爱就像一列失控的火车。
Oh, that's good, I thought, and scribbled the line down on the back of my gas bill.
哦，那太好了，我想，并把这句话写在我的煤气账单背面。
Suddenly, heartbreak was flowing out of the cracks in the sidewalk, and it was up to me to transform it into song.
突然，心碎从人行道的裂缝中流淌出来，我要把它变成歌曲。
The next problem was-- and it felt like a small problem, really-- was my complete lack of musical ability.
下一个问题是——感觉真的是一个小问题——我完全缺乏音乐能力。
So I asked a guy named Joe McGinty for some help.
所以我向一个名叫乔·麦金蒂的人寻求帮助。
He's a New York musician who has played with everyone from The Ramones to Ryan Adams to Ronnie Spector.
他是一位纽约音乐家，曾与雷蒙斯乐团、瑞安·亚当斯和罗尼·斯佩克特等所有人合作过。
He was in The Psychedelic Furs.
他在《迷幻毛皮》中。
He has a million songs.
他有一百万首歌。
More importantly-- for my purposes, at least-- Joe is a man who understands heartbreak.
更重要的是——至少就我而言——乔是一个理解心碎的人。
Here's one of his songs I really like.
这是我非常喜欢的他的一首歌曲。
(SINGING) This song is three weeks old.
（唱歌）这首歌已经三周了。
Guess I should sing it happy birthday.
我想我应该唱生日快乐歌。
And your image, it still holds a happy accident.
而你的形象，依然蕴藏着幸福的意外。
I can't seem to shake you from my mind.
我似乎无法将你从我的脑海中抹去。
Hi.
你好。
Joe Mcginty Is anybody else-- glad I got that.
乔·麦金蒂还有其他人吗——很高兴我明白了。
I'm good.
我很好。
Starlee Kine So I met up with Joe and also Julia Greenberg, a musician and songwriter who plays with Joe a lot.
Starlee Kine 所以我见到了 Joe，还有 Julia Greenberg，一位经常和 Joe 一起演奏的音乐家和作曲家。
I'd written about a dozen songs, some of them more finished than others.
我写了大约十几首歌，其中一些比其他的完成得更多。
When I printed them out, I had six freshly typed pages of lyrics and then about 15 crazy-looking pages with a few lines here and there, separated by random spaces.
当我把它们打印出来时，我有六页新打的歌词，然后是大约 15 页看起来很疯狂的页面，到处都是几行，用随机空格分隔。
I had sent these all off to Joe and Julia before our meeting.
在我们见面之前，我已将这些全部发送给乔和朱莉娅。
Here's Joe reading the one I thought was farthest along.
乔正在读我认为读得最远的一本。
OK, "Imaginary Boyfriend." "I can't help but think this all could have been prevented if I'd just gone to a small liberal arts school because then I would have met my imaginary boyfriend at a stand-up comedy open mic.
好吧，“想象中的男朋友”。 “我情不自禁地想，如果我去一所小型文科学校，这一切都可以避免，因为那样我就会在一个单口喜剧开放麦克风中遇到我想象中的男朋友。
It was love at first eye roll.
这是一见钟情。
He said he drew comic books, like David on Roseanne.
他说他画了漫画书，比如《罗珊娜》中的《大卫》。
Wow.
哇。
I thought I'd been working on a song, but I don't even know how to describe what that was.
我以为我一直在创作一首歌，但我什至不知道如何描述那是什么。
A creative writing class essay, maybe.
也许是一篇创意写作课论文。
It was clear that I'd ignored Phil Collins' advice.
很明显，我忽略了菲尔·柯林斯的建议。
Keep it simple, not clever.
保持简单，而不是聪明。
Joe and Julia agreed.
乔和朱莉娅同意了。
I think the "like David on Roseanne" I can't turn into a song.
我认为“像 David on Roseanne”我无法把它变成一首歌。
When Julia pulled out her favorite of my songs from the very bottom of the stack.
当朱莉娅从最底层拿出她最喜欢的我的歌曲时。
I'd been so sure it wasn't a contender that I'd almost not included it at all.
我非常确定它不是一个竞争者，所以我几乎根本不把它包括在内。
You had the lyric, "It doesn't do me any good.
你有句歌词：“这对我没有任何好处。
In fact, it does me bad." It kind of seems impossible to me that that hasn't been in a pop song before.
事实上，这对我来说很糟糕。”对我来说，以前的流行歌曲中没有出现过这种情况，这似乎是不可能的。
But that's a classic kind of pop song.
但这是一首经典的流行歌曲。
I have to admit I was skeptical.
我不得不承认我对此持怀疑态度。
That lyric was from the crazy pile, just notes for an idea I had for a torch song.
那句歌词来自疯狂的一堆，只是我对火炬歌曲的一个想法的笔记。
I tried to think of the most pathetic scenario I could.
我尽力想象最可悲的场景。
What I came up with was this.
我想出的是这个。
Anthony goes back to his ex-girlfriend.
安东尼回到了他的前女友身边。
But rather than letting him go, I agree to be this awkward third wheel, as long as it means still getting to see him occasionally.
但我并没有让他离开，而是同意成为这个尴尬的电灯泡，只要这意味着仍然可以偶尔见到他。
The lines were literally, "I liked you, and you liked her, and I sort of liked her because you liked her." Julia had run with the idea, with one minor change.
这些台词字面意思是：“我喜欢你，你也喜欢她，我喜欢她是因为你喜欢她。”朱莉娅已经采纳了这个想法，但做了一个小小的改变。
You know that you had it all "like," and I changed it to "love." That was the biggest--
你知道你拥有的一切都是“喜欢”，而我把它改成了“爱”。那是最大的——
God, that makes-- I feel like there's something really, deeply-- there are like even more issues that I have to work out with myself that I put "like" and not "love." It didn't even occur to me.
天哪，这让——我觉得有一些真正、深刻的东西——有更多的问题需要我自己解决，我把“喜欢”而不是“爱”放在了首位。我什至没有想到。
Julia had been so sure it was an actual song that she'd gotten to work before our meeting.
朱莉娅非常确定这是一首真实的歌曲，因此她在我们见面之前就开始工作了。
She'd sketched out a melody and sung it to Joe on his answering machine.
她草拟了一首旋律，并在乔的答录机上唱给他听。
They played it for me.
他们为我演奏。
Yeah, all right.
是的，好吧。
This is going to be a rough--
这将是一个艰难的——
It's very rough.
非常粗糙。
Julia Greenberg --rendering of the opus.
朱莉娅·格林伯格——作品的渲染。
Yeah, OK.
是的，好的。
(SINGING) I loved you, and you loved her, and I sort of loved her 'cause I love everything you loved.
（唱歌）我爱你，你也爱她，我也爱她，因为我爱你所爱的一切。
Then she stops, stops loving you, and glory, hallelujah, somehow you start loving me.
然后她停下来，不再爱你，荣耀，哈利路亚，不知何故你开始爱我。
And I don't know why I love you.
而且我也不知道为什么我爱你。
I just do.
我就是这么做的。
I really do.
我真的这么做。
And it doesn't do me any good.
而且这对我没有任何好处。
In fact, it does me bad.
事实上，这对我不好。
And you're oh so gone.
而你却消失得无影无踪。
And I'm oh so sad.
我真的很难过。
So yes, in theory, I knew all this, that music was important.
所以，是的，从理论上讲，我知道这一切，音乐很重要。
It transforms words, unites the universe together.
它改变了文字，将宇宙统一在一起。
But I'd never actually seen it happen in front of me.
但我从未亲眼目睹过它发生在我面前。
Come up with some more interesting ones.
想出一些更有趣的。
I cannot believe that's the one that you choose.
我不敢相信这就是你所选择的。
But then, when you were singing it, it was like the words were like flying off the page, and there was like pixie dust on them or something, like a magic spell had-- you tapped it with a wand.
但是，当你唱的时候，歌词就像从纸页上飞走了，上面有仙尘之类的东西，就像魔法咒语一样——你用魔杖敲击它。
And it makes total sense now after hearing it that that should be the one.
现在听完之后就完全明白了，那就是这个。
So now the three of us had written a song about the other three of us.
所以现在我们三个人写了一首关于我们其他三个人的歌。
Over the next week, we finessed the lyrics, tweaked the melody, and recorded the song.
在接下来的一周里，我们精心修改了歌词，调整了旋律，并录制了这首歌。
It seemed obvious who should get the first listen.
谁应该第一个聆听似乎是显而易见的。
And no, I don't mean Anthony.
不，我不是说安东尼。
That'd be crazy.
那太疯狂了。
I mean Phil Collins.
我是说菲尔·柯林斯。
Can I play my song for you?
我可以为你播放我的歌吗？
Is that OK?
可以吗？
I don't want to put you on the spot and make you--
我不想让你陷入困境并让你——
No, no, no, I would like to hear it.
不不不，我想听听。
We've been talking about it?
我们一直在谈论它吗？
So I played him the song.
于是我就给他放了这首歌。
I'll skip the part you've already heard and the bridge and jump right to the end.
我会跳过你已经听过的部分和桥段，直接跳到最后。
(SINGING) Now it's just the three of us.
（唱歌）现在只有我们三个人了。
The names may have changed, but the sorry facts remain the same-- that I love you, and she loves you.
名字可能变了，但令人遗憾的事实仍然是一样的——我爱你，她也爱你。
I'm OK with second best.
我同意第二好。
Just love her more and love me less.
只是多爱她一点，少爱我一点。
I don't know why I love you.
我不知道为什么我爱你。
I just do.
我就是这么做的。
I really do.
我真的这么做。
It doesn't do me any good.
这对我没有任何好处。
In fact, it does me bad.
事实上，这对我不好。
'Cause you're oh so gone, and I'm oh so sad.
因为你已经走了，我真的很难过。
You're oh so gone, and I'm oh so sad.
你就这么走了，我真的很难过。
Well, well.
好吧，好吧。
There's some great stuff in there.
里面有一些很棒的东西。
I really like-- what's the line about doing me no good.
我真的很喜欢——对我没有好处有什么用呢？
In fact, it's doing me bad?
其实这对我不好？
"It doesn't do me any good.
“这对我没有任何好处。
In fact, it does me bad."
事实上，这对我不好。”
Yeah.
是的。
That's fantastic.
太棒了。
Starlee Kine Really?
斯塔莉·凯恩 真的吗？
And afterwards, the line that says, and you're oh so gone.
然后，那句话说，你就这样走了。
I laughed when I heard that.
我一听就笑了。
"You're oh so gone, and I'm oh so sad." I mean, it's just really smart.
“你就这么走了，我真的很难过。”我的意思是，它真的很聪明。
I can't believe it.
我简直不敢相信。
That's so nice of you.
你真是太好了。
I can't-- this is like the--
我不能——这就像——
It's not being nice.
这可不太好。
I just like it.
我就是喜欢它。
I mean, I would easily have said, hey, it's not for me, you know?
我的意思是，我会很容易地说，嘿，这不适合我，你知道吗？
But I heard it, and I thought there was some very-- it's very funny.
但我听到了，我觉得其中有一些非常非常有趣。
It's very clever.
这非常聪明。
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Well, that's what I mean, though, about how, like I told you, I was trying to write all these crazy concepts and conceptual ideas, and then the one that seemed to work was just the one that's how I feel.
好吧，这就是我的意思，就像我告诉你的那样，我试图写出所有这些疯狂的概念和概念性想法，然后似乎有效的就是我的感受。
Yeah.
是的。
Starlee Kine Do you think he'll come back?
Starlee Kine 你认为他会回来吗？
I hope so because you obviously do feel a lot for him.
我希望如此，因为你显然对他很有感情。
Oh.
哦。
Do you think I'll ever stop feeling bad, like I am now?
你认为我会像现在这样不再感到难过吗？
But you kind of like feeling bad, don't you?
但你有点喜欢感觉不好，不是吗？
I don't think you really want to get over it.
我不认为你真的想克服它。
I think you're kind of enjoying it.
我想你有点享受它。
So that's kind of a dilemma you have to sort out.
所以这是一个你必须解决的困境。
You really have me pegged.
你真是把我盯上了。
It feels important or big or something.
感觉很重要或者很大或者什么的。
Like I felt so much for him when I was with him, and the only way to still feel like that strongly about something is to not let it go.
就像当我和他在一起时我对他有很多感觉，而对某件事仍然有强烈感觉的唯一方法就是不放手。
I would love to be the person who was just like, he meant nothing to me.
我很想成为一个这样的人，他对我来说毫无意义。
But instead, I'm the person who's like, OK, I'm going to write a breakup song and play it over the airwaves.
但相反，我是那种会说，好吧，我要写一首分手歌曲并在广播中播放的人。
I've like lost all my cool.
我好像失去了所有的冷静。
Really?
真的吗？
Phil Collins You're just addressing something you need to address, and this is, amongst other things, getting it out of your system.
Phil Collins：你只是在解决一些你需要解决的问题，除其他外，这就是将其从你的系统中删除。
You've had the satisfaction of actually getting something tangible that you can play out of this relationship.
你会因为从这段关系中真正得到一些有形的东西而感到满足。
That's true.
确实如此。
But don't you sometimes wonder like, is it better to have the song in the end or the relationship?
但你有时会不会想，最后是歌曲更好还是关系更好？
Oh, no. Surely, you'd rather have the relationship.
哦，不。当然，你更愿意建立这种关系。
That's the problem.
这就是问题所在。
Phil Collins But you don't have the choice.
菲尔·柯林斯 但你别无选择。
Starlee Kine Now that the song is done, it's really hard not to wonder if Anthony is going to hear it.
Starlee Kine 现在这首歌已经完成了，很难不怀疑安东尼是否会听到它。
I'd like to say I've gone back and forth on whether I even want him to, but the truth is, of course I do.
我想说我已经反复考虑是否想要他这么做，但事实是，我当然想要。
Everyone I talk to, from my best friend all the way to Phil Collins, says he'll listen.
与我交谈的每个人，从我最好的朋友到菲尔·柯林斯，都说他会倾听。
And yes, if the roles were reversed, and it were me, I definitely would.
是的，如果角色互换，是我，我肯定会这么做。
But I know Anthony.
但我认识安东尼。
If anyone could resist listening, it would be him.
如果有人能忍住不听的话，那就是他了。
You're just going to have to trust me on this one.
在这一点上你必须相信我。
Which doesn't mean I think he'll never hear the song.
这并不意味着我认为他永远不会听到这首歌。
I can see him keeping a copy of it in some box stuffed with mixtapes and copies of SAT scores so that he can listen to it one day when he's ready.
我可以看到他在某个装满混音带和 SAT 分数副本的盒子里保留了一份它的副本，以便有一天他准备好时可以听它。
I picture him 40 years from now, an old man living in some house that I'll never see, which breaks my heart.
我想象着 40 年后的他，一位住在我永远不会见到的房子里的老人，这让我心碎。
In my head, he doesn't look like a real old man, but like a young one wearing stage makeup.
在我的印象中，他看起来并不像一个真正的老人，而是像一个化了舞台妆的年轻人。
I imagine him sitting down to finally listen on the CD player that people make fun of him for still having.
我想象他终于坐下来听人们嘲笑他仍然拥有的 CD 播放器。
He loads it in and hits play.
他将其加载并开始播放。
He listens to the entire song from start to finish.
他从头到尾听了整首歌。
And when it's over, he plays it again and again until the tears are running down his face.
当曲子结束时，他会一遍又一遍地演奏，直到泪水从脸上流下来。
[MUSIC - "IF YOU EVER NEED A STRANGER (TO SING AT YOUR WEDDING)" BY JENS LEKMAN]
[音乐 - “如果你需要一个陌生人（在你的婚礼上唱歌）”，作者：JENS Lekman]
You can hear more stories from Starlee Kine on her podcast Mystery Show.
您可以在 Starlee Kine 的播客《神秘秀》中听到更多故事。
Coming up, a big city mayor, an eight-year-old girl, and a dog weigh in with their solutions to getting over your next breakup.
接下来，一位大城市的市长、一位八岁的女孩和一只狗将讨论他们如何走出下一次分手的阴影。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our show, of course, we choose a theme and bring you a variety of different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，我们的节目每周都会选择一个主题，并为您带来有关该主题的各种不同类型的故事。
Today's show, "Break-Up," stories from inside the vortex of shockingly contradictory feelings that happen after a breakup.
今天的节目《分手》讲述了分手后令人震惊的矛盾情感漩涡中的故事。
We've arrived at Act Two of our show.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act Two, But Why?
第二幕，但为什么呢？
After a relationship ends, you can puzzle for years over why things went wrong and did they have to.
一段关系结束后，你可能会困惑多年，为什么事情会出错，以及事情是否必须如此。
And you yearn for a simple story that explains it.
你渴望有一个简单的故事来解释它。
And that's not just true for the people in the relationship.
这不仅适用于关系中的人。
It's true for the kids.
对于孩子们来说确实如此。
And now, with that thought, let's flip on the radio time machine.
现在，带着这个想法，让我们打开无线电时间机器。
Reforming welfare in this half hour.
在这半小时内改革福利。
This is Noah Adams.
这是诺亚·亚当斯。
And I'm Renee Montagne with All Things Considered.
我是蕾妮·蒙塔涅（Renee Montagne）。
The welfare reform that they're talking about here is that of President George Herbert Walker Bush.
他们在这里谈论的福利改革是乔治·赫伯特·沃克·布什总统的福利改革。
The day that this aired, February 11, 1987, I was one of the lower-level producers at All Things Considered.
1987 年 2 月 11 日，该节目播出的那天，我是《All Things Thought》的底层制作人之一。
But that day, I got to work on this story about breakups that I still think about, a story about somebody who was wanting to understand a breakup and reaching out to various people out in the world to do that-- in a way, like Starlee did.
但那天，我开始写这个关于分手的故事，我至今仍在思考这个故事，一个关于一个人想要了解分手的故事，并与世界上各种各样的人接触以做到这一点——在某种程度上，就像斯塔莉所做的那样。
So OK, all you need to know is it's 1987.
好吧，你只需要知道现在是 1987 年。
Edward Koch is the mayor of New York City.
爱德华·科赫是纽约市市长。
Noah Adams is one of the hosts of All Things Considered at the time, and he does the interview.
诺亚·亚当斯是当时《All Things Thought》的主持人之一，他接受了采访。
Betty Allison Walter.
贝蒂·艾莉森·沃尔特。
Noah Adams Betsy Allison Walter.
诺亚·亚当斯 贝琪·艾莉森·沃尔特。
And you're eight years old?
而你已经八岁了？
Almost nine.
快九了。
Noah Adams And you live in Manhattan?
诺亚·亚当斯 你住在曼哈顿吗？
Mhm.
嗯。
Noah Adams And you're in our studio in New York.
诺亚·亚当斯（Noah Adams）您现在在我们纽约的工作室里。
I appreciate you taking some time to come in and telling us this story.
我很感谢您抽出时间来告诉我们这个故事。
You wrote a letter to the mayor of New York, Mayor Koch.
您给纽约市长科赫市长写了一封信。
Right.
对。
Noah Adams Tell me about that, please.
诺亚·亚当斯 请告诉我这一点。
Well, I wrote to him because my parents are getting divorced, and I really don't know who to turn to.
好吧，我写信给他是因为我的父母要离婚了，我真的不知道该向谁求助。
And I just told him that my parents are getting divorced and my dad is with somebody else.
我只是告诉他我的父母要离婚了，我的父亲已经和别人在一起了。
And I was just really used to something and now this.
我真的已经习惯了一些事情，现在这个。
And it's really kind of hard on me.
这对我来说真的很难。
And I'd like an opinion.
我想听听意见。
Because he's somebody who I've thought, he's very good to us, I guess, because he's the mayor, and he knows a lot of things.
因为他是我认为的人，我猜他对我们很好，因为他是市长，他知道很多事情。
And I thought he would know about this, too.
我以为他也会知道这件事。
It's very short.
它很短。
"Thank you for the letter.
“谢谢你的来信。
I was saddened to learn of the difficult times you are experiencing now.
得知您现在所经历的困难时期，我感到很难过。
It is important for you to share your feelings and thoughts with someone during this time.
在这段时间与某人分享你的感受和想法对你来说很重要。
I wish there was an easy solution to these problems, but there is not.
我希望有一个简单的解决方案来解决这些问题，但没有。
Please remember that you are loved and that people care about you.
请记住，您是被爱的，人们关心您。
All the best.
一切顺利。
Sincerely, Edward Koch."
此致，爱德华·科赫。”
That's nice.
那很好。
Was that reassuring to you in a way?
这在某种程度上让你感到安心吗？
No. Noah Adams No?
没有。诺亚·亚当斯 没有？
Did you have any thought in your mind that perhaps he could actually do something about it?
你心里有没有想过也许他真的可以做点什么？
For example, call your father and get your mom and dad back together?
例如，给你父亲打电话，让你爸爸和妈妈重归于好？
No. Noah Adams No?
没有。诺亚·亚当斯 没有？
You just wanted some advice.
你只是想要一些建议。
But see, I try to sometimes like-- because I had a dance recital one day, and I invited them both, but I wanted them to sit next to each other, but they didn't.
但是你看，我有时会试着喜欢——因为有一天我有一场舞蹈表演，我邀请了他们两个，但我想让他们坐在一起，但他们没有。
Yeah.
是的。
What other advice have you been able to come across, to find?
您还遇到或找到了什么其他建议？
Well, the guidance counselor, she said that a lot of kids have the same problems.
那么辅导员她说很多孩子都有同样的问题。
Say there are 400 in school, and like 300 of them have the same problem.
假设学校有 400 人，其中大约 300 人有同样的问题。
Sure.
当然。
Sure.
当然。
You know, most people you talk with will have had parents who were divorced.
你知道，与你交谈的大多数人都有离婚的父母。
Oh.
哦。
Noah Adams Yeah, most people.
诺亚·亚当斯 是的，大多数人。
It's kind of a sad thing, but most people get through it all right, too.
这是一件令人悲伤的事情，但大多数人都能顺利度过。
That's my advice for you.
这就是我给你的建议。
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Noah Adams You wrote another letter to somebody who had written a book called The Boys and Girls Book of Divorce?
诺亚·亚当斯（Noah Adams） 您又给写过一本名为《男孩和女孩离婚书》的人写了一封信吗？
Mhm.
嗯。
Noah Adams And what did that person tell you?
诺亚·亚当斯 那个人告诉了你什么？
Well, he said that I should try another of his books to find out help.
好吧，他说我应该尝试他的另一本书来寻求帮助。
Oh, he wanted you to go out and buy his book.
哦，他想让你出去买他的书。
Did you?
你有吗？
And how did that go?
进展如何？
What did you think of that one?
你觉得那个怎么样？
Well, the problem is he puts things in a way that I can't quite get it through me, that I already know.
好吧，问题是他以一种我已经知道的方式让我无法完全理解。
And I want some real advice that my questions really are, not just answers that people keep telling me over and over again.
我想要一些关于我的问题的真实建议，而不仅仅是人们一遍又一遍地告诉我的答案。
Why did they get divorced?
他们为什么离婚？
What happened?
发生了什么事？
Do you think that parents sometimes don't think children are old enough to understand or can't handle it and so will hide some information?
您是否认为父母有时认为孩子还不够大，无法理解或无法处理，因此会隐藏一些信息？
Yes.
是的。
Noah Adams Not that they have to say everything, but you think there ought to be a little bit more sharing of the information?
诺亚·亚当斯：并不是说他们必须说出一切，但你认为应该更多地分享信息吗？
Yeah.
是的。
And in terms of their own divorce, do you understand it better now?
而对于他们自己的离婚，你现在是不是更加理解了呢？
No. Noah Adams No?
没有。诺亚·亚当斯 没有？
Why?
为什么？
What still don't you understand about that?
对此您还有什么不明白的地方？
Well, why did they have to go off and do it?
那么，为什么他们必须离开去这样做呢？
Because see, the most painful part is when I saw my dad packing up.
因为看，最痛苦的部分是当我看到我爸爸收拾行李的时候。
And I really don't understand.
我真的不明白。
It's hard because they won't tell me what happened to them.
这很难，因为他们不告诉我他们发生了什么事。
And I really want them back together.
我真的希望他们重新在一起。
And I don't understand why they can't.
我不明白为什么他们不能。
Yeah.
是的。
What do you think you've learned from this?
你认为你从这件事中学到了什么？
Do you think if somebody else in school, for example, told you that their parents were getting divorced, how do you think you could advise them?
例如，如果学校里的其他人告诉你他们的父母要离婚，你认为你会如何向他们提供建议？
Well, I wrote a book, and I think I would say the same information that I said.
好吧，我写了一本书，我想我会说出我所说的相同信息。
You wrote a very small book?
你写了一本很小的书？
Betsy Walter Yeah.
贝特西·沃尔特 是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Do you have it there?
你那里有吗？
Betsy Walter Mhm.
贝特西·沃尔特 嗯。
Could you read some of it for me, please?
请你帮我读一些好吗？
All right.
好吧。
Let me get it.
让我来拿一下。
It's called A Book about Divorce.
这本书的名字叫《一本关于离婚的书》。
Should I read the whole book?
我应该读整本书吗？
It's short.
很短。
Sure.
当然。
Betsy Walter "It's not your fault when your parents get divorced.
贝特西·沃尔特（Betsy Walter）“当你的父母离婚时，这不是你的错。
Why does it have to be you?
为什么一定是你？
Because Mommy and Daddy don't love each other anymore.
因为妈妈和爸爸不再相爱了。
Remember, it's OK to be sad and cry.
请记住，悲伤和哭泣是可以的。
Tell someone about your feelings." That's it.
告诉别人你的感受。”就是这样。
That's nice.
那很好。
Listen, Betsy.
听着，贝特西。
Thank you for talking with us.
感谢您与我们交谈。
I appreciate it.
我很感激。
And I wish you the best.
我祝你一切顺利。
I hope things go well for you.
我希望你一切顺利。
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Noah Adams And maybe this is the beginning of a writing experience for you, and you can grow up to be a writer.
诺亚·亚当斯 也许这对你来说是写作经历的开始，你可以长大成为一名作家。
I don't want to.
我不想。
But I want to write like one book that would make it, but not a whole series, you know?
但我想写一本书，而不是整个系列，你知道吗？
You just want to write a book and make a lot of money.
你只想写一本书并赚很多钱。
No, not money, just famous.
不，不是钱，只是名气。
Noah Adams OK.
诺亚·亚当斯 好的。
[LAUGHS] OK, Betsy, thank you.
[笑]好的，贝特西，谢谢你。
Good night.
晚安。
OK, good night.
好的，晚安。
Noah Adams So that's the tape from 20 years ago.
诺亚·亚当斯 这是 20 年前的磁带。
And you're in the studio with us now.
你现在和我们一起在录音室里。
Tell us your name.
告诉我们你的名字。
Betsy Allison Walter.
贝特西·艾莉森·沃尔特。
Noah Adams How old are you?
诺亚·亚当斯 你几岁了？
I just turned 29.
我刚满29岁。
Noah Adams And you're working?
诺亚·亚当斯：你在工作吗？
I am.
我是。
I have been an elementary school teacher for the past seven years.
在过去的七年里，我一直是一名小学老师。
How many times over the years do you think you've heard this taped interview?
这些年来您认为您听过这个录音采访多少次？
Probably 12.
大概是12。
A dozen.
十几个。
Because I didn't hear it for a while.
因为有一段时间没听到了。
I think I heard it again when I was about 22, 23.
我想我在22、23岁左右的时候再次听到过这句话。
Every time I've had a boyfriend, I've played it for him.
每次我有男朋友的时候，我都会为他演奏。
And each time it's got to be different.
而且每次都必须有所不同。
How's it been changing for you?
你的情况发生了怎样的变化？
Really?
真的吗？
Betsy Walter I used to only hear it with my exact inner monologue from when I was there in the studio.
贝特西·沃尔特（Betsy Walter）以前，当我在录音室时，我只能用我内心独白的方式听到它。
And when I heard certain things, I can still remember the exact thoughts running through my head.
当我听到某些事情时，我仍然记得脑海中闪过的确切想法。
I remember it very clearly.
我记得很清楚。
I remember thinking that you were just another grown-up offering your advice.
我记得当时我以为你只是另一个提供建议的成年人。
All these grown-ups kept telling me things, but I felt like I knew what they were going to say.
所有这些大人都不停地告诉我一些事情，但我觉得我知道他们会说什么。
They were going to say, it'll be OK, and people fall out of love.
他们会说，一切都会好起来的，人们就会失去爱情。
But that wasn't what I wanted to hear.
但这不是我想听到的。
I remember everything.
我记得一切。
I don't know how.
我不知道怎么办。
And then recently-- I think it was probably when I graduated college when I heard it again-- I heard it as an adult.
然后最近——我想可能是当我大学毕业时我再次听到它——我作为一个成年人听到了它。
And it was so heartbreaking.
这真是令人心碎。
I didn't think it was sad when it was me.
当我的时候，我不认为这是悲伤的。
It was just what was going on.
这就是正在发生的事情。
And it made me sad to hear pain in my voice, confusion.
听到我声音中的痛苦和困惑让我感到难过。
And now I hear it even differently as an educator.
现在，作为一名教育者，我听到的说法甚至有所不同。
I hear it as, what would I say to her?
我听到的是，我会对她说什么？
And looking back at that moment, did you really want the truth or did you want things to be well again and whole again?
回顾那一刻，你真的想要真相还是想要事情再次变得美好、完整？
I don't believe that I wanted what the truth really was, but I wanted what I had created the truth to be in my head.
我不相信我想要真相到底是什么，但我希望我创造的真相存在于我的脑海中。
I wanted them to say something to the fact that, oh, we just needed time apart, and of course we'll come back together.
我想让他们对这样一个事实说些什么：哦，我们只是需要分开一段时间，当然我们会重新聚在一起。
I wanted what I thought the truth was.
我想要我认为的真相。
If I had heard the real truth, I think that it would have been devastating.
如果我听到了真相，我想这将是毁灭性的。
Your dad was fooling around?
你爸爸是在胡闹吗？
Betsy Walter Mhm.
贝特西·沃尔特 嗯。
And my mom did an amazing job of never, ever putting any blame on him, of always being supportive of us, having a relationship.
我妈妈做得非常出色，从来没有责怪过他，总是支持我们，保持着良好的关系。
But if she had said the truth, I couldn't have a relationship with him.
但如果她说的是实话，我就不可能和他发生关系。
I would have been too angry.
我会太生气了。
OK, let's imagine this.
好吧，让我们想象一下。
Your advice just to that eight-year-old Betsy, who was you.
你的建议只是给八岁的贝特西，也就是你。
I do grapple with this.
我确实在努力解决这个问题。
It's hard because I know exactly what I wanted to hear when I was eight.
这很难，因为我八岁时就清楚地知道自己想听什么。
I think I would tell her that-- you know what?
我想我会告诉她——你知道吗？
I would actually say, this is probably how your life is going to be.
我实际上想说，这可能就是你的生活。
Your parents made this choice for you.
你的父母为你做出了这个选择。
And now, instead of questioning and wondering for so long why this choice was made, how are you going to live your life now, knowing this is your life?
现在，不要长时间地质疑和疑惑为什么做出这个选择，而是知道这就是你的生活，你现在将如何过你的生活？
I still know myself, and I would have been persistent, wanting answers regardless.
我仍然了解自己，而且我会坚持不懈，无论如何都想要答案。
But I do think that I needed to feel less helpless.
但我确实认为我需要减少无助感。
It's been years since we first broadcast this show, and Betsy Allison Walter is now Betsy New-Schneider.
距离我们第一次播出这个节目已经很多年了，贝齐·艾莉森·沃尔特现在是贝齐·纽-施奈德。
She has two little kids of her own, one of whom is actually near the age Betsy was when she first sat down for her first interview with Noah Adams more than 30 years ago.
她自己有两个孩子，其中一个孩子的年龄实际上接近 30 多年前贝特西第一次接受诺亚·亚当斯采访时的年龄。
You can still hear Noah on various NPR news shows.
您仍然可以在各种 NPR 新闻节目中听到诺亚的声音。
[MUSIC - "NOW THAT IT'S LONG OVER" BY BRISA ROCHE]
[音乐 - 布里萨·罗什 (Brisa Roche) 的《现在一切都结束了》]
Act Three: Let No Court Put Asunder Ira Glass Act Three, Let No Court Put Asunder.
第三幕：不让法庭拆散艾拉·格拉斯 第三幕，不让法庭拆散。
Now we have this example of somebody trying to make breakups less horrible than they are.
现在我们有一个例子，有人试图让分手变得不那么可怕。
Barry Berkman used to be like any divorce lawyer.
巴里·伯克曼曾经和任何离婚律师一样。
He fought for his clients.
他为他的客户而战。
He tried to get them big settlements.
他试图为他们争取大的定居点。
But he came to believe that what he was doing actually was not so good for most of his clients, which, you know, was kind of a big problem.
但他开始相信，他所做的实际上对大多数客户来说并不是那么好，你知道，这是一个大问题。
Here's the kind of thing he would see.
这就是他会看到的事情。
A guy comes in, ready for a divorce.
一个男人进来了，准备离婚。
His wife had a lot of money.
他的妻子有很多钱。
They had worked out a deal, but they did it on their own, without seeing lawyers.
他们达成了一项协议，但他们是自己做的，没有见律师。
What'd they decide?
他们决定什么？
Barry Berkman And what they decided was that, in order for him-- he was a musician.
巴里·伯克曼 他们决定，为了他——他是一名音乐家。
Didn't have that much money.
没有那么多钱。
But in order for him to live close to her and to be able to see the kids, which they both wanted, she was going to give him enough money to purchase a small co-op.
但为了让他住得离她近一些，并且能够看到他们都想要的孩子，她打算给他足够的钱来购买一套小型合作公寓。
And it was great.
这太棒了。
They were both happy as could be.
他们都很高兴。
They were ready to do it.
他们已经准备好这么做了。
They were told to see lawyers.
他们被告知要见律师。
He came to see us.
他来看我们了。
We were fine with it, and we said sure.
我们对此表示同意，并且表示当然可以。
This looks good.
这看起来不错。
You did a good job.
你做得很好。
She went to see a lawyer.
她去找律师。
No way.
没办法。
How can you give him that much?
你怎么能给他那么多？
It's not right.
这是不对的。
Absolutely.
绝对的。
For the lawyer, it was too much because he had an argument which could theoretically end up giving her the greater part of her separate property.
对于律师来说，这太过分了，因为他的争论理论上最终可能会让她获得大部分个人财产。
She ended up listening to the lawyer.
最后她听了律师的话。
We ended up with a custody fight as well as a divorce fight.
我们最终陷入了监护权之争和离婚之争。
Wait.
等等。
And is that because the money fight got so bitter at some point?
这是因为金钱斗争在某个时候变得如此激烈吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Then they started fighting over the kids, which they hadn't fought over at all.
然后他们开始为了孩子而吵架，而他们根本就没有为了孩子而吵架。
Wait.
等等。
How did that kick in?
这是怎么开始的？
Like what was the moment where it went from being just about money to being about the kids, too?
就像是在哪一刻，事情从只关心金钱变成了也关心孩子？
What happened was the parties got so angry at each other that they started quibbling about everything.
发生的事情是双方对彼此非常生气，他们开始对所有事情都争论不休。
So if he had a gig and couldn't be home on time one evening, she decided he was an unfit parent.
因此，如果他有演出，有一天晚上不能按时回家，她就会认为他是一个不称职的父母。
If she was spending too much time with her new boyfriend, which this guy decided wasn't appropriate, she became an unfit parent.
如果她花太多时间和她的新男友在一起，而这个男人认为这不合适，她就会成为一个不称职的父母。
So the parties ended up fighting not only about money, but about the kids.
因此，双方最终不仅为钱争吵，还为孩子争吵。
Used up a good bit of her vast inheritance in the case.
在这起案件中，她用掉了很大一部分遗产。
And in the end, she ended up buying him the same, or similar, co-op in a similar neighborhood as the one she would have in the first place.
最后，她最终给他买了一套与她一开始想要的在类似社区相同或相似的合作公寓。
But it took a couple of years, embittered everyone, and you had to think, was this worthwhile?
但这花了几年的时间，让每个人都很痛苦，你不得不想，这值得吗？
Did it have to happen?
它必须发生吗？
Adversarial style divorces make up a ton of all divorce proceedings around the country.
对抗式离婚在全国离婚诉讼中占很大比例。
And Barry felt like most of those cases ended up like this one-- incredibly expensive, taking a huge emotional toll on everybody, damaging children.
巴里觉得大多数案件的结局都是这样的——成本极其高昂，给每个人带来了巨大的情感损失，对儿童也造成了伤害。
So after 15 years of doing these cases like this, he started looking for a different way.
因此，在处理此类案件 15 年之后，他开始寻找不同的方法。
And he found something called collaborative divorce.
他发现了一种叫做“合作离婚”的东西。
In collaborative divorce, each spouse gets a lawyer, and then the spouses and the lawyers sit down in a room together to work out some kind of agreement.
在协作离婚中，配偶双方都会聘请一名律师，然后配偶和律师坐在一个房间里一起制定某种协议。
But under the rules of collaborative divorce, if one of the lawyers thinks that the other side is being intransigent or unreasonable, not only can he not threaten to go to court, if it does go to court, he has to give up the case.
但根据合作离婚的规则，如果其中一名律师认为对方不妥协或无理取闹，他不仅不能威胁上法庭，如果真的上法庭，他也必须放弃案件。
He has to give the case to another lawyer to do.
他必须把这个案子交给另一位律师去做。
So the lawyers have an incentive to work everything out.
因此律师有动力去解决一切问题。
So OK.
那么好吧。
They all sit down together, the spouses and the lawyers.
配偶和律师们都坐在一起。
And Barry Berkman says that, even though the spouses enter this situation with good intentions of working everything out, the biggest obstacle he has is something very simple.
巴里·伯克曼说，尽管夫妻双方怀着解决一切问题的良好意愿进入这种情况，但他面临的最大障碍却非常简单。
I think often what happens is couples in conflict lose the ability to listen to each other.
我认为经常发生的情况是，冲突中的夫妻失去了互相倾听的能力。
And so you find yourself, very often, saying to your own client, no, no, no, no. Listen to what they're saying.
所以你发现自己经常对自己的客户说，不，不，不，不。听听他们怎么说。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Ira Glass And so one of the things--
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）其中一件事——
Not to agree with it, but at least to understand it.
不是同意，但至少理解。
That's the whole question-- to recognize that your point of view doesn't necessarily invalidate your spouse's point of view.
这就是整个问题——要认识到你的观点并不一定会使你配偶的观点无效。
You're saying the most important thing people need to do is simply just listen to each other and try to get along.
你是说人们需要做的最重要的事情就是互相倾听并尝试相处。
Well, I would say listen to each other.
好吧，我想说的是互相倾听。
Yeah, I don't know about getting along.
是的，我不知道如何相处。
Do things get so reasonable that you get people listening to each other well enough that people eventually just get back together?
事情是否变得如此合理，以至于人们能够充分倾听彼此的意见，最终重新回到一起？
I've had that happen once.
我曾经遇到过一次这样的情况。
Ira Glass What happened?
艾拉·格拉斯 发生了什么事？
What happened was, we had people who simply couldn't listen to each other.
实际情况是，我们的员工根本无法互相倾听。
He became very, very busy in his own law practice.
他在自己的法律实践中变得非常非常忙碌。
She felt she was losing him.
她觉得她正在失去他。
Part of it was they couldn't find the time to talk to each other.
部分原因是他们找不到时间互相交谈。
But this collaborative divorce process makes you actually show up to meetings with your spouse and your lawyers and start talking.
但这种协作离婚程序让你真正出现在与你的配偶和律师的会议上并开始交谈。
And as these two people talked, they started to see each other's side of things.
而随着这两个人的交谈，他们开始看到对方的一面。
Maybe he hadn't been around enough.
或许是他待得还不够多。
Maybe she could have been more supportive.
也许她本可以给予更多支持。
I think the turning point came when they were talking about what to do with the house, and each one kind of recognized that they didn't really want to be living anywhere without the other person.
我认为转折点出现在他们谈论如何处理房子时，每个人都认识到他们真的不想住在没有另一个人的任何地方。
Usually, of course, the spouses do not get back together.
当然，通常情况下，夫妻俩不会复合。
When the process works, Barry Berkman says, at least they end up feeling a little better about each other.
巴里·伯克曼说，当这个过程奏效时，至少他们最终会对彼此感觉好一点。
Do people ever say, at the end of this process, they appreciate your help and they're glad for the results, but they're still full of pain?
人们是否曾经说过，在这个过程结束时，他们感谢你的帮助，他们对结果感到高兴，但他们仍然充满痛苦？
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, we're not going to get rid of the pain.
我的意思是，我们不会摆脱痛苦。
The pain is there.
痛苦就在那里。
Long marriages-- the pain is there.
长久的婚姻——痛苦就在那里。
I think going through this process enables people to get in touch with that pain and the real sadness that they're experiencing, which is sometimes covered up by their anger.
我认为经历这个过程可以让人们接触到他们正在经历的痛苦和真正的悲伤，而这些有时会被他们的愤怒所掩盖。
Are you saying that, at the end of this process, actually just going through the dividing of assets-- which is really, in the end, all you're trying to do-- actually makes people's anger dissipate?
你是不是说，到了最后，其实只是通过资产分割——这实际上就是你最终要做的事情——实际上就可以让人们的愤怒消散？
When you do it this way?
当你这样做的时候？
I think going through the process, where we reach-- and it's not just the assets.
我认为通过这个过程，我们所达到的目标不仅仅是资产。
The assets are usually relatively easy.
这些资产通常相对容易。
Don't forget we have the kids and the parenting and the decision-making.
不要忘记我们还有孩子、养育子女和决策权。
That's often a lot tougher.
这通常要困难得多。
I think going through the process where people reach points of understanding, where maybe for the first time they get a glimpse of where the other person is coming from, and so all of the sudden, they realize, you know what?
我认为，在人们达到理解点的过程中，也许他们第一次瞥见对方来自哪里，所以突然间，他们意识到，你知道吗？
It's not necessary to demonize this person anymore.
没有必要再妖魔化这个人了。
And when they have those moments of understanding, it goes a long way toward helping them get on with the rest of their lives, actually.
事实上，当他们有这些理解的时刻时，这对帮助他们度过余生大有帮助。
Barry Berkman is a lawyer in New York and a member of the New York Association of Collaborative Professionals, which he helped found.
巴里·伯克曼 (Barry Berkman) 是纽约的一名律师，也是他帮助创立的纽约协作专业协会的成员。
Collaborative divorce, by the way, was invented by a Minneapolis lawyer named Stuart Webb.
顺便说一句，合作离婚是由明尼阿波利斯一位名叫斯图尔特·韦伯的律师发明的。
Act Four: Divorce Is Rrruuffff!
第四幕：离婚真是太糟糕了！
Ira Glass Act Four, Divorce Is Rrruuffff!
艾拉·格拉斯第四幕，离婚真是太糟糕了！
We close our show today with this vignette of just how lost you feel when you lose somebody, from Merrill Markoe, recorded on stage at Un-Cabaret in Los Angeles.
我们今天以这段由 Merrill Markoe 在洛杉矶 Un-Cabaret 舞台录制的小插曲来结束我们的节目，讲述了当你失去某人时你会感到多么失落。
Today, our friend Paul came to the house in a near dissociative state of panic.
今天，我们的朋友保罗带着一种近乎精神分裂的恐慌来到了我们家。
Suddenly and without warning, it appeared that his marriage was unraveling.
突然间，在毫无征兆的情况下，他的婚姻似乎出现了裂痕。
He sat down on the big, red couch in the living room, and I offered him a vodka as he started detailing his anguish.
他坐在客厅的红色大沙发上，当他开始详细描述他的痛苦时，我给了他一杯伏特加。
"Up until yesterday, if you'd asked me if my marriage was a happy one, I would have said yes," he said, choking back tears.
“直到昨天，如果你问我我的婚姻是否幸福，我会说是的，”他强忍着泪水说道。
"And then last night, out of the blue, my wife comes in and tells me she wants a divorce." As Paul spoke, Andy's dog, Puppy Boy, a skinny, brown-and-black Tijuana shepherd, approached with his mouth full of a large, black, completely deflated soccer ball.
“然后昨晚，我妻子突然进来告诉我她想离婚。”保罗说话时，安迪的狗小狗男孩（Puppy Boy）是一只瘦弱的棕黑色提华纳牧羊犬，嘴里叼着一个完全泄气的黑色大足球走了过来。
He placed the flat, wet piece of rubber gently on Paul's knee and then sat down right in front of him to wait for the games to begin.
他将平坦、潮湿的橡胶轻轻放在保罗的膝盖上，然后坐在他面前等待比赛开始。
Paul was too upset to notice.
保罗心烦意乱，没有注意到。
"She told me she wants to start seeing other men," Paul said, tears welling up in his eyes.
“她告诉我她想开始和其他男人约会，”保罗说，眼里涌出泪水。
"And that's not even the worst of it.
“这还不是最糟糕的。
Today, I found out from friends they've already seen her around town with another guy.
今天，我从朋友那里得知，他们已经看到她和另一个男人在城里。
They didn't want to say anything until now." He began to cry.
直到现在他们都不想说什么。”他开始哭泣。
And as he did, Puppy Boy.
正如他所做的那样，小狗男孩。
Attempted to apply a little additional pressure by picking up the deflated piece of rubber off Paul's knee and moving it to a new spot a little further up Paul's leg.
试图通过捡起保罗膝盖上泄气的橡胶片并将其移动到保罗腿上稍远的新位置来施加一点额外的压力。
But Paul had the bad manners to be completely preoccupied by his own tragedy.
但保罗的举止很不礼貌，他全神贯注于自己的悲剧。
"I have no idea what I'm going to do," he said, as Puppy Boy moved in a little closer and began staring a little harder, his eyes going intently from the black, flat, rubber thing that was now balancing on Paul's thigh, to Paul's face, and then back to the flat, black, rubber thing, as if to help Paul out in case he was having trouble locating it.
“我不知道我要做什么，”他说，小狗男孩靠近了一点，开始更加凝视，他的目光专注地从现在平衡在保罗大腿上的黑色、扁平、橡胶物体上移到保罗的脸上，然后又回到那个扁平、黑色、橡胶物体上，仿佛要帮助保罗，以防万一他找不到它。
"It's been just emotionally devastating," Paul continued.
“这在情感上是毁灭性的，”保罗继续说道。
"Everything I've worked for has fallen apart.
“我为之努力的一切都崩溃了。
And what happens to me now?
而我现在又怎么样了？
Am I going to lose everything-- my house, my cars, my savings?" He broke down and began to sob, the only time I've ever seen this incredibly stoic man cry.
我会失去一切——我的房子、我的汽车、我的积蓄吗？”他崩溃了，开始抽泣，这是我唯一一次看到这个极其坚忍的男人哭泣。
Which was the signal to Puppy Boy that the game was finally about to get going.
这向小狗男孩发出了游戏终于要开始的信号。
[LAUGHTER] So he picked up the deflated soccer ball off Paul's thigh and moved it to the most conveniently located spot of all-- the very center of Paul's lap.
[笑声] 于是他从保罗大腿上捡起了瘪了的足球，把它移到了最方便的地方——保罗大腿的正中央。
Then he sat back down in front of Paul and resumed his intense staring.
然后他又在保罗面前坐下，又继续专注地凝视着。
So he kept doing this for the whole two hours that Paul was at our house.
所以保罗在我们家的整整两个小时里，他一直这样做。
Later that night, after Paul had gone home to pick up the pieces of his shattered existence, I began to wonder what Puppy Boy might have to say for himself about this behavior.
那天晚上晚些时候，保罗回家收拾他破碎的生活的碎片后，我开始想知道小狗男孩可能会对这种行为说些什么。
So I asked him.
所以我问他。
Puppy Boy replies, "Hello, new seated person.
小狗男孩回答说：“你好，新坐的人。
I am Puppy Boy.
我是小狗男孩。
And I can see that you are very upset for some reason, but I have something on my mind.
我看得出你出于某种原因很沮丧，但我心里有事。
I'm going out on a limb here and tell you that it is the most important thing I have ever had to say, and it is this.
我在这里冒险告诉你，这是我不得不说的最重要的事情，就是这个。
I have placed a thing on you that you must throw.
我给你放了一个东西，你必须扔掉。
[LAUGHTER] If you look down now, you will see it.
[笑声]如果你现在往下看，你就会看到它。
It is that large, flat thing that is balancing on your knee.
就是那个大而扁平的东西在你的膝盖上保持平衡。
Please listen to me when I tell you that this is an opportunity you cannot pass up.
当我告诉你这是一个你不能错过的机会时，请听我说。
By the way, you have noticed that your knee has a big, flat, wet thing balancing on it, haven't you?
顺便说一句，你已经注意到你的膝盖上有一个又大又平又湿的东西在上面保持平衡，不是吗？
Or are you so busy sobbing and weeping and talking about yourself that you are having trouble seeing it?
或者你正忙着抽泣、哭泣和谈论自己，以至于你看不到它？
Here's a hint.
这是一个提示。
I'm staring at it right now.
我现在就盯着它看。
So if you can imagine a laser beam coming from my eyes, and then follow it down to the spot on your leg where it is focused, it'll lead you right to it.
因此，如果你能想象一束激光从我的眼睛中射出，然后沿着它向下到达你腿上的聚焦点，它就会引导你到达那里。
The only other possible explanation for your puzzling lack of interest is that you are purposefully ignoring me.
对于你令人费解的缺乏兴趣，唯一可能的解释是你故意忽视我。
And why would you do that?
你为什么要这么做？
Especially since you are really hurting yourself more than you are hurting me because, let's face it, you're the one who's passing up a great opportunity.
尤其是你对自己的伤害比对我的伤害还要大，因为，让我们面对现实吧，你就是那个错过了一个绝佳机会的人。
And by a great opportunity, I'm referring to the chance to have the kind of fun that everyone dreams of having.
我所说的绝佳机会是指获得每个人都梦想拥有的乐趣的机会。
I speak of the chance to throw a big, flat, stretchy, wet thing.
我谈到了扔一个大的、扁平的、有弹性的、湿的东西的机会。
And guess where it is right now?
猜猜它现在在哪里？
[LAUGHTER] Throw it now or live a life of regret.
[笑声]现在就扔掉它，否则就会过上后悔的生活。
I mean, I can't stop you if you'd rather just listen to yourself talk.
我的意思是，如果你只想听自己说话，我无法阻止你。
Wife, wife, wife.
老婆，老婆，老婆。
She did this.
她这样做了。
She did that.
她这么做了。
Really fascinating.
真的很迷人。
For Christ's sakes, look into my eyes and play along!
看在上帝的份上，看着我的眼睛一起玩吧！
Pick up the big, flat, wet thing.
拿起又大又扁又湿的东西。
Pick it up!
捡起来！
Pick up the big, flat, wet thing.
拿起又大又扁又湿的东西。
Pick it up.
捡起来。
Pick it up.
捡起来。
Pick up the big, flat, wet thing.
拿起又大又扁又湿的东西。
Can you hear me OK?
你能听到我说话吗？
Pick up the big, flat, wet thing.
拿起又大又扁又湿的东西。
Are you even listening?
你到底有没有在听？
You know, maybe if you had listened a little better during your marriage, your wife wouldn't want a divorce.
你知道，也许如果你在婚姻期间多听一点，你的妻子就不会想要离婚。
Did you ever think of that?
你有没有想过？
It wouldn't surprise me if you never threw the thing she brought you, either."
如果你从来不扔掉她给你带来的东西，我也不会感到惊讶。”
Merrill Markoe at Un-Cabaret in Los Angeles.
梅里尔·马科 (Merrill Markoe) 在洛杉矶 Un-Cabaret 酒吧表演。
Merrill's most recent collection of essays is called Cool, Calm, and Contentious.
梅里尔最新的散文集名为《冷静、冷静和有争议》。
Thanks to Greg Miller of Un-Cabaret.
感谢 Un-Cabaret 的格雷格·米勒。
[MUSIC - "AGAINST ALL ODDS" BY THE POSTAL SERVICE]
[音乐 - 邮政服务的“克服一切困难”]
Credits Ira Glass Well, our program was produced today by Robyn Semien and myself, with Alex Blumberg, Jane Marie, John Jeter, Sarah Koenig, Lisa Pollak, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
感谢 Ira Glass 嗯，我们今天的节目是由 Robyn Semien 和我本人以及 Alex Blumberg、Jane Marie、John Jeter、Sarah Koenig、Lisa Pollak、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike 制作的。
Our senior producer for today's show was Julie Snyder.
我们今天节目的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Our technical director is Matt Tierney.
我们的技术总监是马特·蒂尔尼。
Production helpfrom Seth Lind, Lygia Navarro, PJ Vogt, and Alvin Melathe.
Seth Lind、Lygia Navarro、PJ Vogt 和 Alvin Melathe 为制作提供帮助。
Music help for today's show from Jessica Hopper.
杰西卡·霍珀为今天的节目提供音乐帮助。
Special thanks today to NPR.
今天特别感谢 NPR。
Noah Adams' interview from 1987 was originally broadcast on National Public Radio's All Things Considered, where I was a proud staffer, and was used with permission of NPR.
诺亚·亚当斯 (Noah Adams) 1987 年的采访最初在国家公共广播电台 All Things Thoughd 上播出，我是该电台的一名自豪的工作人员，并且经 NPR 许可使用。
Thanks to Ellen Weiss.
感谢艾伦·韦斯。
Thanks to the musicians who played Starlee's song in Act One-- Joe McGinty on keyboard, Jeremy Chatzky on bass and electric guitar, Julia Greenberg on vocals and acoustic guitar, and Natalie Weiss sings backup.
感谢在第一幕中演奏 Starlee 歌曲的音乐家们——键盘手 Joe McGinty、贝斯手和电吉他手 Jeremy Chatzky、人声和原声吉他手 Julia Greenberg、以及伴唱 Natalie Weiss。
Starlee Kine on tambourine.
斯塔莉·凯恩敲着手鼓。
When we first ran this show, we invited listeners to take the raw tracks of Starlee's song and mix their own versions.
当我们第一次举办这个节目时，我们邀请听众采用 Starlee 歌曲的原始曲目并混合他们自己的版本。
The response was kind of incredible-- 129 entries.
反应有点令人难以置信—— 129 个条目。
You can hear the winners of our breakup song contest-- including the version you're hearing right now, by We Were Pirates-- at our website, thisamericanlife.org, where you can also listen to-- for free-- any of our old shows in our archive.
您可以在我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org 上听到我们分手歌曲比赛的获胜者的声音，包括您现在听到的 We Were Pirates 的版本，您还可以在我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org 上免费收听我们存档中的任何旧节目。
This American Life is distributed by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 发行。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia, who's been listening to the show over the phone this week, and he has some thoughts.
一如既往地感谢我们节目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生，他本周一直在通过电话收听节目，他有一些想法。
Well, well.
好吧，好吧。
There's some great stuff in there.
里面有一些很棒的东西。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
[MUSIC - "AGAINST ALL ODDS" BY THE POSTAL SERVICE]
[音乐 - 邮政服务的“克服一切困难”]
This American Life This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
This American Life This American Life 与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。