335: Big Wide World - This American Life
You are using an outdated browser.
您正在使用过时的浏览器。
Please upgrade your browser or activate Google Chrome Frame to improve your experience.
请升级您的浏览器或激活 Google Chrome 浏览器内嵌框架以改善您的体验。
Sign up for a free Life Partners trial, and you can watch the video “A Night of Stories and Improv.”
注册免费试用《Life Partners》，您可以观看视频“故事与即兴表演之夜”。
00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #335 | May 16, 2008 335: Big Wide World Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 335 集 | 2008 年 5 月 16 日 335：大世界 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass When I was in seventh grade, I was at my friend Dave [?
序言 Ira Glass 当我七年级时，我在我的朋友 Dave [？
Berowi's ?] house.
贝罗维的？] 房子。
And we went to the fridge for a snack.
我们去冰箱里吃点零食。
And he opens up the door to the fridge.
然后他打开冰箱门。
And inside was a six pack of beer.
里面是六瓶装啤酒。
And I had never seen beer in real life, in someone's house.
我在现实生活中从未在别人家里见过啤酒。
Beer was just something from TV.
啤酒只是电视里的东西。
You know, it was just like one of those things from TV that was out there that never really showed up in the real life of anybody that you knew.
你知道，这就像电视中出现的事情之一，但从未真正出现在你认识的任何人的现实生活中。
And I say this knowing how this sounds, how sheltered this sounds.
我说这句话时知道这听起来如何，这听起来有多么受到庇护。
But my parents were Jews.
但我的父母是犹太人。
And I grew up on this block in suburban Baltimore where everybody was Jewish.
我在巴尔的摩郊区的这个街区长大，那里每个人都是犹太人。
And just people didn't drink when I was a kid.
我小时候人们不喝酒。
I did not see booze in people's houses.
我没有看到人们家里有酒。
But this was seventh grade.
但这是七年级的事。
And I was getting off the block for the first time.
这是我第一次离开街区。
And seeing this beer, I remember it seemed dangerous.
看到这种啤酒，我记得它看起来很危险。
It seemed actually dangerous.
看起来确实很危险。
I remember thinking the [?
我记得我在想 [?
Berowis ?] have this secret, this dirty little secret.
Berowis？]有这个秘密，这个肮脏的小秘密。
Mr. [?
先生。 [？
Berowi ?] suddenly seemed capable of anything.
贝罗维？]突然间似乎无所不能。
But at the same time, the [?
但与此同时，[?
Berowis ?] were really great.
Berowis？]真的很棒。
I used to go to the ocean with their family during the summer.
我曾经在夏天和他们的家人一起去海边。
They were great.
他们很棒。
And I remember I had to rearrange in my head all of my half-baked ideas about alcohol to accommodate the thought that normal people drink, which I guess is what happens when you see a little more of the world.
我记得我必须在头脑中重新整理关于酒精的所有不成熟的想法，以适应正常人饮酒的想法，我想这就是当你对世界了解更多时会发生的事情。
I was like the first bird among all my friends.
我就像我所有朋友中的第一只鸟。
And nobody could believe that I got visa to go to America.
没有人相信我获得了去美国的签证。
Valentina was 24 when she left Odessa-- in the former Soviet Union-- to come work in the United States.
瓦伦蒂娜 (Valentina) 24 岁时离开前苏联的敖德萨 (Odessa) 前往美国工作。
And after two weeks here, she had a sudden and very urgent need to go to the store.
在这里两周后，她突然非常迫切地需要去商店。
And I went to the supermarket to get what I need, my feminine hygiene products.
我去超市买我需要的东西，我的女性卫生用品。
And it took me probably long, long time to find the right aisle.
我可能花了很长时间才找到正确的过道。
And I saw the rows of tampons.
我看到了一排排卫生棉条。
Maxi, mini, super, with wings, without wings.
大型、迷你、超级、带翼、不带翼。
Maxi, mini, super, with wings, without wings.
大型、迷你、超级、带翼、不带翼。
And thinking, I don't know what they use it for.
我想，我不知道他们用它做什么。
First, it was very interesting.
首先，这非常有趣。
Then it was confusing.
然后就很混乱了。
And then it was sad.
然后就很难过了。
And then it was frustrated.
然后就很沮丧了。
It was a very, very sad experience for me.
这对我来说是一次非常非常悲伤的经历。
She left the store without buying anything, went to the place she was staying, and cried.
她没有买任何东西就离开了商店，回到住的地方哭了。
And I couldn't ask for help because my American friends, they were still new to me.
我无法寻求帮助，因为我的美国朋友对我来说还是陌生的。
And I didn't want them to look at me like I'm from the forest or from a cave.
我不想让他们看我，就像我来自森林或洞穴一样。
I really wanted to go home.
我真的很想回家。
It made me feel very small.
这让我感觉自己很渺小。
Though you know, sometimes when the world gets bigger, it's great.
尽管你知道，有时当世界变得更大时，那就太好了。
One of the regular contributors to our program, Starlee Kine, tells this story about her dad.
我们节目的定期撰稿人之一斯塔莉·凯恩 (Starlee Kine) 讲述了她父亲的故事。
Starlee's family's house was so chaotic when she was growing up-- they never ate regular meals together.
在斯塔莉的成长过程中，她家的房子非常混乱——他们从来没有一起正常吃饭。
Nothing was normal-- that after she moved away from home, whenever she would fly back to see her family, she would actually stay with a friend, not with her parents.
一切都不正常——她离开家后，每当她飞回来看望家人时，她实际上都是和朋友住在一起，而不是和父母住在一起。
And her dad would come and hang out with her at her friend's house.
她爸爸会来她朋友家和她一起出去玩。
And after her parents split up, she was staying at her friend Allison's.
父母离婚后，她住在朋友艾莉森家。
And usually when he comes over, he'll just kind of walk around, asking lots of questions.
通常当他过来时，他会四处走动，问很多问题。
And he touches everything.
他触及一切。
And he'll pick up pencils, and pens, and anything that's lying around.
他会捡起铅笔、钢笔以及周围的任何东西。
Little objects on top of the mantel place.
壁炉架顶部的小物体。
Kind of how they arranged their living room furniture.
就像他们布置客厅家具的方式一样。
And at Allison's house, she has an aquarium.
在艾莉森的家里，她有一个水族馆。
In the living room is a huge aquarium with lots of fish.
客厅里有一个巨大的水族箱，里面有很多鱼。
And they're all pretty and different kinds of fish.
它们都是漂亮的不同种类的鱼。
And the first time my dad ever came to Allison's house, he looked at this aquarium for like an hour.
我爸爸第一次来到艾莉森家时，他在这个水族馆看了大约一个小时。
And I thought he was really into fish.
我以为他真的很喜欢吃鱼。
Or something.
或者什么。
I didn't understand what was going on.
我不明白发生了什么事。
And then he started asking Allison all these questions like, who feeds the fish in the house?
然后他开始问艾莉森所有这些问题，比如谁在家里喂鱼？
And where's the fish food kept?
鱼食存放在哪里？
And all these kinds of things.
以及所有这些事情。
And Allison would be all, like, either I feed it, or my brother feeds it, or Ben feeds it, someone around.
艾莉森会说，要么我喂它，要么我哥哥喂它，要么本喂它，周围有人。
And my dad got really confused.
我爸爸真的很困惑。
And he was like, I don't understand.
他说，我不明白。
Wouldn't you over-feed it if you guys are all feeding the fish?
如果你们都喂鱼的话，会不会喂得太多了？
And she'd be like, no. We just know who's fed it before.
她会说，不。我们只知道以前是谁喂过它的。
And he's like, I don't-- do you-- how do you commun--
他说，我不知道你是如何交流的
He just was really confused about how they communicated this information to each other.
他只是对他们如何相互传达这些信息感到非常困惑。
And then finally Allison was like, we just tell each other who's fed the fish.
最后艾莉森说，我们只是告诉对方谁喂了鱼。
I talk to my brother.
我和我哥哥说话。
And that's how I know.
我就是这样知道的。
And then my dad was totally blown away.
然后我爸爸完全被震撼了。
I realize that what my dad-- why he was staring at the fish tank was that he couldn't understand how a very simple thing like fish getting fed worked in a functional household.
我意识到我父亲盯着鱼缸的原因是他无法理解像喂鱼这样简单的事情在一个功能齐全的家庭中是如何运作的。
And it was like, as soon as she said that they talked to each other, my dad realized there was an entirely different way for families to function, which involved communicating basic things.
就好像，当她一说他们互相交谈时，我父亲就意识到家庭的运作方式完全不同，其中涉及沟通基本的事情。
You can travel to another continent to see how the rest of the world lives.
您可以前往另一个大陆，看看世界其他地方的生活方式。
Or you can do that sitting on a couch, in a house that's just ten minutes from your own.
或者，您也可以坐在距离您家仅十分钟路程的房子里的沙发上。
I think it was hopeful.
我认为这是有希望的。
Because I think it's always when you discover that the world is bigger, or there's something new that you haven't known, like a different way of doing something, it's pretty exciting.
因为我认为，当你发现世界变得更大，或者有一些你不知道的新事物，比如做某事的不同方式时，总是令人兴奋的。
For today on our show, the Big Wide World, and how it's both exciting and frightening when you head out to discover the new things you hadn't known.
今天在我们的节目中，广阔的世界，以及当您出去发现您不知道的新事物时，它是如何既令人兴奋又令人恐惧。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life, distributed by Public Radio International.
这是来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Our show today in two acts.
我们今天的演出分两幕。
Act One, Teen Wolf Blitzer.
第一幕，《少狼闪电战》。
Act Two, I've Got The Whole World in My Hands.
第二幕，整个世界都在我手中。
In that act, a girl who can not see wanders around a place that she's never been and tries to figure out, not just if it's safe or dangerous, but at a much more basic level, where is she?
在那一幕中，一个看不见的女孩在一个她从未去过的地方徘徊，并试图弄清楚，不仅仅是它是安全还是危险，而是在更基本的层面上，她在哪里？
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, Teen Wolf Blitzer.
第一幕，《少狼闪电战》。
Well here are the ways that Haider Hamza was like lots of teenagers.
以下是海德尔·哈姆扎与许多青少年的相似之处。
He wanted to separate from his parents.
他想和父母分开。
He wanted to get out in the world.
他想走出去，闯入这个世界。
He wanted to try things that his parents never tried.
他想尝试一些他父母从未尝试过的事情。
Only he did this against a very dramatic backdrop.
只有他在非常戏剧性的背景下做到了这一点。
He grew up in embassies all over Europe and Africa.
他在欧洲和非洲各地的大使馆长大。
His father was a diplomat.
他的父亲是一名外交官。
And they were Iraqi.
他们是伊拉克人。
So his father was a diplomat for the Iraqi government, back before the United States invaded Iraq.
因此，在美国入侵伊拉克之前，他的父亲是伊拉克政府的外交官。
So when Haider was little they would live in all these different places.
所以当海德尔还小的时候，他们会住在这些不同的地方。
And then when he turns 13, the family moves back to Iraq.
然后当他 13 岁的时候，全家搬回了伊拉克。
And the international embargo was in effect.
国际禁运已经生效。
And Saddam Hussein was in power.
萨达姆侯赛因掌权。
And it took some getting used to.
这需要一些时间来适应。
And then, in spring 2001, when Haider was 16, three officials from Saddam Hussein's Ministry of Information came to his high school in what was basically a casting call.
然后，2001 年春天，海德尔 16 岁时，萨达姆·侯赛因新闻部的三名官员来到他所在的高中，这基本上是一次选角。
They wanted students.
他们想要学生。
They wanted outgoing, personable students-- especially students with good foreign language skills-- who would be willing to do a job for the Ministry of Information, a job where they would be representing Iraq on the world stage.
他们想要外向、风度翩翩的学生，尤其是具有良好外语能力的学生，他们愿意为信息部工作，在世界舞台上代表伊拉克。
So Haider went out for it.
于是海德尔就出去了。
And he got hired.
他被录用了。
And he was in that job three years later-- by this time he was 19-- when the US invasion was looming, which is when our story begins.
三年后，他已经 19 岁了，担任了这份工作，当时美国入侵迫在眉睫，我们的故事也从那时开始。
Gideon Yago tells more.
吉迪恩·亚戈讲述了更多内容。
Haider Hamza was a professional teenager.
海德尔·哈姆扎是一名职业青少年。
This is how his job worked.
他的工作就是这样进行的。
Say a group of Japanese dignitaries were coming to Iraq.
假设一群日本政要要来到伊拉克。
The Ministry of Information would call Haider and a couple of other teenagers to come and be the face of Iraqi youth at a get together.
信息部将召集海德尔和其他几个青少年来参加一次聚会，成为伊拉克年轻人的代言人。
Or some foreign journalists would show up and want to do a story about Iraqi teens.
或者一些外国记者会出现并想要报道有关伊拉克青少年的报道。
Well, the Ministry of Information would assign Haider to be the subject.
那么，信息部将指定海德尔为主题。
Or Haider would work as a fixer, helping reporters to find other people to interview-- other kids-- people who wouldn't say anything too bad about the regime.
或者海德尔会充当中间人，帮助记者找到其他人来采访——其他孩子——那些不会说政权太坏的人。
He was part of Saddam's propaganda machine.
他是萨达姆宣传机器的一部分。
And he liked it.
他喜欢它。
For me it was kind of cool.
对我来说这有点酷。
Because I was 19.
因为我19岁了。
I got to skip all classes at school.
我必须逃掉学校的所有课程。
I didn't have to go to school.
我不必去学校。
All I needed to go was just to go to my professor and say, well, I'm wanted at the Ministry of Information.
我所需要做的就是去见我的教授并说，嗯，信息部需要我。
And Saddam's son, Uday, was the one in charge on most of the media in Iraq at the time.
而萨达姆的儿子乌代是当时伊拉克大部分媒体的负责人。
So I was like, oh, Mr. Uday wants us at the Ministry.
所以我就想，哦，乌代先生希望我们加入魔法部。
And he'd go, of course, of course, just go ahead.
他当然会去，当然，就去吧。
And I kept getting straight A's.
我一直都取得全A。
And I hardly went to school.
而且我几乎没去上学。
And the salary was good.
而且工资也不错。
I was making more money than my dad.
我赚的钱比我爸爸还多。
And my dad was an ambassador for, like, 40 years.
我父亲担任大使已有 40 年之久。
And I had this badge that said Ministry of Information.
我有一个徽章，上面写着信息部。
And the thing is, most of the employees of the Ministry of Information actually work for the intelligence.
事实是，信息部的大多数员工实际上是在为情报部门工作。
And they take it as a cover, like for the Mukhabarat, which is the intelligence service in Iraq.
他们将其作为掩护，就像伊拉克的情报部门 Mukhabarat 一样。
So when I show it, people think I work for the intelligence service.
所以当我展示它时，人们会认为我为情报部门工作。
So I wouldn't stand in any lines.
所以我不会排队。
I wouldn't wait anywhere.
我不会在任何地方等待。
At 19?
19岁？
Haider Hamza At 19.
海德尔·哈姆扎 19 岁。
Yeah.
是的。
So I loved the attention, just like any 19-year-old would.
所以我喜欢这种关注，就像任何 19 岁的年轻人一样。
And we got to stay at five-star hotels, because whenever a delegation of journalists comes to visit the country, they would take us to stay with them at the hotel and just guide them around.
我们必须住在五星级酒店，因为每当有记者代表团来这个国家访问时，他们都会带我们住在酒店里，并引导他们参观。
And basically also make sure they don't interview someone they're not supposed to interview, or they don't say something they're not supposed to say, or any of that.
基本上还要确保他们不会采访他们不应该采访的人，或者他们不会说他们不应该说的话，或者任何这样的事情。
So I enjoyed it.
所以我很享受。
I quite enjoyed it.
我非常喜欢它。
At first, Haider's job was just part-time.
起初，海德尔的工作只是兼职。
But by 2002, more and more journalists were showing up in Baghdad asking questions about the war that was looming.
但到了 2002 年，越来越多的记者出现在巴格达，询问有关迫在眉睫的战争的问题。
And the Ministry needed Haider to work full time.
该部需要海德尔全职工作。
He wound up in a lot of news stories about youth in Iraq, and on several panels with American students, answering their questions.
他出现在许多有关伊拉克年轻人的新闻报道中，并在几个美国学生的小组讨论中回答了他们的问题。
Hi, and welcome.
您好，欢迎光临。
I'm Vanessa Rae, and today we're participating in a historic discussion between the young people of two countries on the brink of war.
我是凡妮莎·雷（Vanessa Rae），今天我们正在参加两个处于战争边缘的国家的年轻人之间的历史性讨论。
We're building a bridge to Baghdad.
我们正在修建一座通往巴格达的桥梁。
And in New York City--
而在纽约市——
This is from a TV program called Bridge to Baghdad.
这是来自一个名为《通往巴格达之桥》的电视节目。
Just before the invasion, a New York group called Downtown Community Television connected two groups of students via satellite.
就在入侵之前，纽约一个名为市中心社区电视台的组织通过卫星将两组学生联系起来。
Iraqi and American kids talking war.
伊拉克和美国孩子谈论战争。
The Iraqi group includes a couple of Ministry of Information plants, including Haider.
伊拉克集团包括几家信息部工厂，其中包括 Haider。
The Americans sit in comfy couches near glass windows overlooking the New York skyline.
美国人坐在靠近玻璃窗的舒适沙发上，俯瞰着纽约的天际线。
The Iraqis are on fold-out chairs in a Baghdad art gallery, where, just off-camera, stands a pack of Ministry of Information minders and Ba'ath Party officials.
伊拉克人坐在巴格达美术馆的折叠椅上，镜头外站着一群信息部官员和复兴党官员。
Well, hi there, dudes.
嗯，嗨，伙计们。
My name is Haider.
我叫海德尔。
And I won't say anything else, because I'm really, really eager to rock and roll.
我不会再说什么，因为我真的非常渴望摇滚。
What Saddam wanted to do is to show a different image of Iraq that was sort of portrayed in the West and the US, an image of a backward country, and people are oppressed, and uneducated, and people don't have any freedom.
萨达姆想要做的是展示一个与西方和美国所描绘的伊拉克不同的形象，一个落后国家的形象，人民受到压迫，人民没有受过教育，人民没有任何自由。
And our policy was mostly to stay as social as possible, and avoid being political as much as possible.
我们的政策主要是尽可能保持社交性，并尽可能避免政治化。
How are things resolved within the government when there are differences of opinion?
当政府内部出现意见分歧时如何解决？
Can we change the subject a bit?
我们可以稍微换个话题吗？
Do you like sports, any of you?
你们中有人喜欢运动吗？
Do you--
你有吗——
The most striking thing about the footage is how earnestly the American teens ask questions that no Iraqi could ever answer without risking jail time, and how uncomfortable the Iraqi teens look when trying to answer.
这段视频中最引人注目的一点是，美国青少年是多么认真地提出了伊拉克人在不冒牢狱之灾的情况下无法回答的问题，而伊拉克青少年在试图回答时看起来是多么不舒服。
Are you guys-- are you able to find a new leader if you wanted one?
如果你们想要一个新的领导者，你们能找到吗？
We feel that this person really represents that.
我们觉得这个人确实代表了这一点。
So we are supporting him, of course.
所以我们当然支持他。
Haider generally didn't spend a lot of time dwelling on the bad things that Saddam's regime had done.
海德尔一般不会花太多时间思考萨达姆政权所做的坏事。
Sure, Saddam had run Iraq with an iron fist.
当然，萨达姆用铁拳统治伊拉克。
But this didn't seem all that different from the leaders of Syria, or Saudi Arabia, or lots of other countries in the region to Haider.
但在海德尔看来，这与叙利亚、沙特阿拉伯或该地区许多其他国家的领导人似乎并没有什么不同。
And living in Iraq, he didn't exactly hear details about Saddam's atrocities.
生活在伊拉克，他并没有确切地听到有关萨达姆暴行的细节。
People didn't talk about those things.
人们没有谈论这些事情。
They were rumors, vapors, hard to be sure of.
它们只是谣言、浮云，很难确定。
Meanwhile, every time he turned on a TV or opened a textbook, there he was, smiling benevolently.
与此同时，每次他打开电视或打开课本时，他都会在那儿露出仁慈的微笑。
Papa Saddam.
萨达姆爸爸。
Like a member of your family.
就像你的家庭成员一样。
Even though they were just teens, Haider and the other kids at the Ministry of Information got treated like professionals.
尽管海德尔和信息部的其他孩子才十几岁，但他们却受到了专业人士的待遇。
Before press appearances, they'd be exhaustively prepped, sometimes for days.
在出席新闻发布会之前，他们会进行详尽的准备，有时甚至要持续数天。
They would sit us in a room.
他们会让我们坐在一个房间里。
And we'd have all these different professors, and intelligence officers, and diplomats, and a psychiatrist as well, actually.
实际上，我们有所有这些不同的教授、情报官员、外交官，还有一位精神病学家。
He came to tell us about human psychology, and what to say, and what not to say, and our facial expressions, how they should be.
他来告诉我们人类的心理，什么该说，什么不该说，以及我们的面部表情应该是什么样子。
And they gave us sheets.
他们给了我们床单。
And we did exams.
我们做了考试。
And how to answer-- if we're going to be asked about Halabja, how to avoid talking about the invasion of Kuwait, how to avoid talking about mass graves, and all this kind of stuff that we wouldn't dare to talk about.
以及如何回答——如果我们要被问到哈拉卜贾的问题，如何避免谈论入侵科威特，如何避免谈论万人坑，以及所有这些我们不敢谈论的事情。
So for me it was very thrilling that I could actually have a conversation with an Iraqi official about these things, because I was not even allowed to talk with this with my parents at home.
因此，对我来说，能够与伊拉克官员就这些事情进行对话是非常令人兴奋的，因为我什至不被允许在家里与我的父母谈论这些事情。
It was like a taboo.
这就像一个禁忌。
Would you say-- do you think it's fair to say that your job was sort of as a professional-- I don't want to say actor, but professional kind of representative, mouthpiece?
你会说——你认为公平地说你的工作有点像专业人士——我不想说演员，而是专业的代表、代言人？
I was a diplomat.
我是一名外交官。
Gideon Yago You were a diplomat.
吉迪恩·雅戈（Gideon Yago） 你是一名外交官。
That's how you view yourself.
这就是你如何看待自己。
Yeah.
是的。
Gideon Yago You were a 19-year-old diplomat on behalf of Saddam.
吉迪恩·亚戈 你是一名代表萨达姆的 19 岁外交官。
Yeah.
是的。
My father was an ambassador.
我的父亲是一名大使。
So I was like, OK, I'm a little him.
所以我就想，好吧，我就是他的一个小角色。
I'm also a diplomat.
我也是一名外交官。
I'm doing what he's doing.
我正在做他正在做的事情。
Because he spent all his life.
因为他度过了一生。
My father was--
我父亲是——
Lying?
说谎？
Spinning?
旋转？
Sorry.
对不起。
Haider Hamza Well, no. That's what politicians do.
海德尔·哈姆扎 嗯，不。这就是政治家所做的。
But he--
但他——
What do diplomats do?
外交官做什么的？
Haider Hamza They sort of dress up the truth, and make it look nice, and make it friendly.
海德尔·哈姆扎（Haider Hamza） 他们有点粉饰事实，让它看起来很漂亮，而且很友好。
I think it's less mean, less evil, than what politicians do.
我认为这比政客的做法更不卑鄙、更邪恶。
Haider's father used to tell Haider being a diplomat was the safest way to work inside the regime.
海德尔的父亲曾经告诉海德尔，成为一名外交官是在政权内部工作的最安全的方式。
If you're in the Foreign Service, he'd say, you can live abroad, and they can't monitor you too carefully.
他会说，如果你在外交部工作，你可以住在国外，他们不能太仔细地监视你。
And they can't ask you to do things too terrible.
他们不能要求你做太可怕的事情。
The worst thing they can ask you to do is lie.
他们要求你做的最糟糕的事情就是撒谎。
Haider's dad had been a diplomat for 40 years and for four different governments.
海德尔的父亲曾担任外交官 40 年，曾在四个不同的政府任职。
Monarchs, military coups, the Ba'ath party, and then Saddam.
君主、军事政变、复兴党，然后是萨达姆。
But despite-- or maybe because of-- this, he was totally opposed to his son's new job at the Ministry of Information.
但尽管如此——或许正因为如此，他完全反对儿子在信息部的新工作。
Because he thought I was very naive, that I would do anything they asked me to.
因为他认为我很天真，他们让我做什么我就做什么。
So they might ask me to do something that's going to hurt him, but I would still do it.
所以他们可能会要求我做一些会伤害他的事情，但我仍然会这样做。
He would say, listen, this is not a rational government you're dealing with.
他会说，听着，你面对的这不是一个理性的政府。
It's not about what you do.
这与你做了什么无关。
You can get in trouble even though you are doing everything right.
即使你做的一切都是正确的，你也可能会遇到麻烦。
He was worried about you becoming an out-and-out intelligence agent.
他担心你会成为一个不折不扣的情报人员。
And that.
还有那个。
He was worried about me becoming arrogant.
他担心我变得傲慢。
He was worrying about me becoming a [UNINTELLIGIBLE] person.
他担心我会成为一个[无法理解]的人。
He was worrying about me becoming Saddam-ish, basically.
基本上，他担心我会变得像萨达姆那样。
Right.
正确的。
Haider Hamza That's what he was worried about.
Haider Hamza 这就是他所担心的。
And he was worried about me getting killed.
他还担心我会被杀。
Haider tuned his father out.
海德尔不理睬他的父亲。
He was 19, and, like most self-respecting teenagers, felt that he could handle making decisions on his own.
他当时 19 岁，和大多数有自尊心的青少年一样，觉得自己可以自己做决定。
But the Ministry of Information gig didn't just creep his father out.
但信息部的工作并不仅仅让他的父亲感到害怕。
I remember my best friend at the time, he didn't hang out with me anymore.
我记得当时我最好的朋友，他不再和我一起出去玩了。
Because he said, listen, you're going to get in trouble one day.
因为他说，听着，有一天你会遇到麻烦的。
And I don't want to be driven down with you as well.
我也不想和你一起被压垮。
What does that mean, you were going to get in trouble?
这意味着什么，你会遇到麻烦吗？
Well, it means that on one of the shows or one of the interviews I'm going to say something stupid.
好吧，这意味着在一场节目或一次采访中我会说一些愚蠢的话。
Or I'm going to slip, and say something I'm not supposed to say.
或者我会失言，说出一些不该说的话。
And then-- And I think something close to that happened.
然后——我认为类似的事情发生了。
I remember I was interviewed by ABC Australian.
我记得我接受过澳大利亚广播公司的采访。
And at the time, they did a whole documentary.
当时，他们制作了一整部纪录片。
They would follow me around.
他们会跟着我。
And we would go to a football match.
我们会去看一场足球比赛。
And they would film me at a football match with my friends, and stuff like that.
他们会拍摄我和朋友们观看足球比赛之类的事情。
And I think it was at the stadium, they were asking me, what do you think of Saddam?
我想是在体育场，他们问我，你觉得萨达姆怎么样？
And I've seen Saddam.
我还见过萨达姆。
I met him once back then.
那时我见过他一次。
And they said, what do you think of Saddam?
他们说，你觉得萨达姆怎么样？
And I just posed.
我刚刚摆了个姿势。
And I said, I think he is very polite.
我说，我觉得他很有礼貌。
And they said, and?
他们说，还有？
I was like, that's it.
我当时想，就是这样。
And it's like, what do you mean, that's it?
就像，你是什么意思，就是这样？
It's like, very polite?
是不是很有礼貌啊？
Is that all you can say about him?
关于他你只能说这么多吗？
Then they said, well, is he, like, the best?
然后他们说，好吧，他是最好的吗？
And I said, well, no one is perfect.
我说，好吧，没有人是完美的。
He's not a prophet or anything.
他不是先知什么的。
So he definitely has some merits and demerits just like any other person.
所以他和其他人一样肯定有优点和缺点。
And I kept it to that.
我一直坚持这一点。
I thought that was not offending anyone.
我认为这并没有冒犯任何人。
But people disagreed back in the office.
但办公室里的人却不同意。
And they said, how dare you say that he's just like any other person.
他们说，你怎么敢说他和其他人一样。
He's not.
他不是。
He's Saddam.
他是萨达姆。
Haider spent a night in detention answering intelligence officers' questions about his relationship with the reporter and his feelings about Saddam.
海德尔在拘留期间回答了情报官员关于他与记者的关系以及他对萨达姆的感受的问题。
But maybe because the war was looming and there were bigger fish to fry, all Haider got was a reprimand.
但也许是因为战争迫在眉睫，还有更重要的事情要做，海德尔得到的只是一顿训斥。
He went back to work at the Ministry.
他回到外交部工作。
In the days leading up to the invasion, Haider spent most of his time at the Ministry.
在入侵之前的几天里，海德尔大部分时间都在魔法部度过。
School, classes, family and friends all took the backseat.
学校、班级、家人和朋友都退居次要地位。
Haider filled his days doing interviews, hosting delegations, and working on songs and poems for Iraqi youth radio.
海德尔整天都在接受采访、接待代表团以及为伊拉克青年电台创作歌曲和诗歌。
Overseeing his work was Dr. Huda Ammash.
胡达·阿马什 (Huda Ammash) 博士负责监督他的工作。
Her nickname when she wound up on the coalition's deck of cards a few weeks later was Dr. Germ, for the work that she'd done in the development of Iraq's biological weapons program.
几周后，当她出现在联军的牌库中时，她的绰号是杰姆博士，因为她在伊拉克生物武器计划的开发中所做的工作。
But to Haider, she was a kindred spirit.
但对海德尔来说，她是志趣相投的人。
Every day, she helped him and the rest of the Ministry of Information's junior league craft their messages and toe the party line.
每天，她都帮助他和信息部初级联盟的其他成员起草信息并遵守党的路线。
Working with her, Haider felt important and safe.
与她一起工作，海德尔感到重要且安全。
I have to confess I was enjoying this for a while, that I forgot how serious this is.
我不得不承认我很享受这一段时间，但我忘记了这有多严重。
And that's the other thing.
这是另一回事。
We didn't feel there was a war.
我们没有感觉到有战争。
I remember until five days before the war, I had an exam at school.
我记得直到战前五天，我在学校参加考试。
And I went to school and had my exam.
我去了学校并参加了考试。
We still went to school every day.
我们仍然每天去学校。
There was still running water, electricity, and phone lines.
仍然有自来水、电力和电话线。
People didn't leave.
人没有离开。
We didn't see anyone packing and leaving.
我们没有看到有人收拾行李离开。
I believe until two or three days before the war, I thought, the US is not going to invade.
我相信，直到战争前两三天，我想，美国不会入侵。
And it's because I was close to all-- well not close, but I was around many senior officials of the government.
这是因为我与所有人都很亲近——好吧，不是很亲近，但我周围有许多政府高级官员。
And I think most of them believed that it's not going to happen.
我想他们中的大多数人都相信这不会发生。
They believed it was just a threat.
他们认为这只是一种威胁。
Russia and France would never allow that.
俄罗斯和法国决不会允许这种情况发生。
They'll take care of us.
他们会照顾我们的。
And no, they'd give a warning to Saddam if it gets too serious.
不，如果事情变得太严重，他们会向萨达姆发出警告。
And that they can strengthen the sanctions, or impose more, or whatever, but that's going to be it.
他们可以加强制裁，或者施加更多制裁，或者采取其他措施，但仅此而已。
They're not going to actually invade.
他们不会真正入侵。
But I think it was three days before the war, it was the last time I met with Dr. Germ.
但我想那是战争前三天，那是我最后一次见到杰姆博士。
It was the last radio show we did.
这是我们做的最后一个广播节目。
And when we were leaving, she said, where is your family?
当我们离开时，她说，你的家人在哪里？
And I said, we're all still in Baghdad.
我说，我们都还在巴格达。
And she said, take them out.
她说，把它们拿出来。
And I was like, well, why?
我当时想，好吧，为什么？
And she said, just take them out.
她说，把它们拿出来吧。
They are coming.
他们来了。
So take them out.
所以把他们拿出来。
And I think that was when I believed it's going to happen.
我想就在那时我相信这将会发生。
It was that moment when she said that.
她就是在那一刻说出这句话的。
I said, OK.
我说，好吧。
It sort of took me out of the whole world of having fun, and talking to the media, and having cameras around me, and showing off, and walking out with my badge, and all that fun.
这让我脱离了享受乐趣、与媒体交谈、周围有摄像机、炫耀、带着徽章走出去以及所有这些乐趣的整个世界。
That night, Haider relayed to his parents what Dr. Ammash had told him.
那天晚上，海德尔向他的父母转述了阿马什医生告诉他的话。
It was time to get out of Baghdad.
是时候离开巴格达了。
Haider's father knew a place where they could lay low.
海德尔的父亲知道他们可以躲在一个地方。
There was a farmhouse four hours north of the city.
距离城市以北四小时车程的地方有一座农舍。
It was a good place for the family-- Haider, his parents, and three siblings-- to wait and see what would happen next.
对于海德尔、他的父母和三个兄弟姐妹来说，这是一个等待并看看接下来会发生什么的好地方。
Grudgingly, Haider climbed into the family car and left.
海德尔无奈地爬上家里的车离开了。
We went there.
我们去了那里。
There was no electricity, of course.
当然，没有电。
And there was no running water.
而且没有自来水。
It was totally different.
这是完全不同的。
And it was hot.
而且天气很热。
At the time it was getting hot.
当时天已经热起来了。
It was in April or March.
那是在四月或三月。
And there were all these mosquitoes, I remember, because it was a farm.
我记得，那里有很多蚊子，因为那是一个农场。
It was one night I spent there.
我在那里度过了一晚。
When I left I didn't tell any of my friends.
当我离开时，我没有告诉任何朋友。
So I got up, and I walked up to my dad, and I said, I can't stay here.
所以我站起来，走到爸爸面前，我说，我不能留在这里。
I'm going back.
我要回去了。
And he was like, what are you talking about?
他说，你在说什么？
I was like, we still have shows scheduled.
我当时想，我们还有演出安排。
We still have interviews on schedule.
我们仍然按计划进行采访。
And I want to be part of that.
我想成为其中的一部分。
I don't want to be living in a farm with a bunch of horses and cows.
我不想住在有一群马和牛的农场里。
He said, you're out of your mind.
他说，你疯了。
You're not going to go back.
你不会回去的。
You're going to die.
你会死的。
We are so lucky.
我们太幸运了。
We should be thankful that we made it here.
我们应该庆幸我们能走到这里。
We're going to stay here until this whole thing is over.
我们要留在这里直到整个事情结束。
I went back to my mom and said, I'm leaving.
我回到妈妈身边，说，我要走了。
She knows that I can not handle it there.
她知道我在那里应付不了。
She wasn't-- I mean, it was horr-- It was not a way to live.
她不是——我的意思是，这太可怕了——这不是一种生活方式。
You have to sleep on the floor.
你必须睡在地板上。
And you have no electricity.
而且你没有电。
They didn't even have a bathroom.
他们甚至没有浴室。
It was like they had something that they called a bathroom, which was like you have to walk forever out in the middle of nowhere.
就好像他们有一个叫做浴室的东西，就像你必须永远走到一个不知名的地方。
And I was like, I can't live like that.
我当时想，我不能那样生活。
I'm a celebrity.
我是名人。
I am not going to live like that.
我不会那样生活。
You're used to being in cars and having a badge.
您已经习惯了坐车并佩戴徽章。
It was funny.
这很有趣。
It was very odd.
这很奇怪。
I believed there was a war coming.
我相信战争即将来临。
And I believed truly that it was the safest place to be, probably, if the war was going to happen.
我确实相信，如果战争即将发生，那可能是最安全的地方。
But I didn't want that.
但我不想那样。
I didn't want to be in the safest place and not have any stories to tell afterwards.
我不想待在最安全的地方，之后却没有任何故事可讲。
I was like, but I believe this whole thing is going to be over one time, and that I'm going to meet back, and they're going to say, OK, tell us how was the time in the war?
我当时想，但我相信这整件事都会结束一次，我会回来见面，他们会说，好吧，告诉我们战争期间怎么样？
What am I going to say?
我要说什么？
That I spent it with cows and sheep in the middle of nowhere?
我在荒无人烟的地方和牛羊一起度过了这段时间？
I was like, no.
我当时想，不。
You were going to need some stories to tell.
你需要一些故事来讲述。
Exactly.
确切地。
I said, I can do better than that.
我说，我可以做得更好。
I mean, it was that many things else, of course.
我的意思是，当然还有很多其他的事情。
But that came across my mind as well, I have to say.
但我不得不说，我也想到了这一点。
So my dad was like, I'm not driving back to Baghdad.
所以我爸爸说，我不会开车回巴格达。
And I have young siblings.
我还有年幼的兄弟姐妹。
And he said, I'm not taking your siblings through this.
他说，我不会让你的兄弟姐妹经历这一切。
If you're crazy, you have to face that alone.
如果你疯了，你就必须独自面对。
You don't have to let your siblings face that with you.
你不必让你的兄弟姐妹和你一起面对这个问题。
So I said, OK.
所以我说，好吧。
I'll just take a cab.
我就坐出租车吧。
But there were no cabs around.
但周围没有出租车。
So I had to walk for half an hour or so until I got to the closest house.
所以我不得不步行半个小时左右，直到我到达最近的房子。
And there was a farmer there with a pickup truck.
那里有一个开着皮卡车的农民。
And I said, would you take me to Baghdad?
我说，你能带我去巴格达吗？
At the time I paid him, it was about $13.
当我付钱给他时，大约是 13 美元。
But in Iraq, $13 is a lot of money.
但在伊拉克，13 美元已经是很多钱了。
And he said, OK, I'll drive you.
他说，好吧，我开车送你。
Just one way.
只有一种方法。
I'll drive you.
我开车送你。
So I go, OK.
所以我走了，好吧。
So I went, I packed.
于是我就去了，收拾行李。
My dad wouldn't even see me off.
我爸甚至不肯送我。
He was really angry that I'm doing this.
他对我这样做真的很生气。
But I got in, and I drove back.
但我上了车，然后开车回去。
And I drove directly to the radio station, because at the time there was a show ongoing.
我直接开车去了广播电台，因为当时正在播放节目。
And I saw my group and stuff.
我看到了我的团队和其他东西。
And I saw everyone.
我看到了所有人。
And everyone was like, so what are you guys doing?
每个人都说，你们在做什么？
And they said, oh, we're all leaving.
他们说，哦，我们都要走了。
I was like, where are you leaving?
我当时想，你要离开哪里？
They said, we're leaving Baghdad.
他们说，我们要离开巴格达。
Because we all believed that the war was going to happen in Baghdad.
因为我们都相信战争将在巴格达发生。
It was going to be sieged for like months.
它将被围困几个月。
And Saddam might even use chemical weapons.
萨达姆甚至可能使用化学武器。
Because we didn't know if he owned them or not.
因为我们不知道他是否拥有它们。
So all my friends said, oh, we're leaving.
所以我所有的朋友都说，哦，我们要走了。
I said, but now?
我说，但是现在呢？
I just came back.
我刚回来。
So I realized I just made a mistake by coming back.
所以我意识到我回来只是犯了一个错误。
I should have just stayed there.
我应该呆在那里。
And all of a sudden, the life of cows and sheep didn't look so bad.
突然间，牛羊的生活看起来没那么糟糕了。
And maybe that was the best option, and I should go back.
也许那是最好的选择，我应该回去。
So I called the driver.
于是我给司机打电话。
I was like, I want you to drive me back to that farm.
我当时想，我想让你开车送我回那个农场。
And this time I had to pay $30, because it was getting serious.
这次我不得不支付 30 美元，因为事情变得越来越严重。
And no one would go anywhere.
没有人会去任何地方。
Everyone was busy with his own family.
每个人都忙着自己的家庭。
I got down, and I went to the family, the farm.
我下了车，去了家里，去了农场。
And I was like, I'm back.
我当时想，我回来了。
I'm taking my stuff down.
我正在把我的东西拿下来。
And he said, no. I was like, what?
他说，不。我当时想，什么？
He said, your parents just left-- went back to Baghdad-- because they couldn't be away from you.
他说，你的父母刚刚离开——回到巴格达——因为他们无法离开你。
And there were no phones.
而且没有电话。
He said, they just left.
他说，他们就走了。
They just went to Baghdad.
他们刚刚去了巴格达。
Your dad didn't sleep all night.
你爸爸一夜没睡。
He was crying all night, actually.
事实上，他整个晚上都在哭。
And he thought you were going to be trapped.
他以为你会被困住。
And he said, the family is not going to be in two different locations.
他说，一家人不会住在两个不同的地方。
All the family will be together.
所有的家人都会在一起。
So this morning-- about two hours ago-- your family went back to Baghdad because of you.
所以今天早上——大约两个小时前——你的家人因为你而回到了巴格达。
I actually felt, I felt like [BLEEP] at the time.
我实际上感觉到，我当时感觉就像[BLEEP]。
I felt-- I don't know.
我感觉——我不知道。
I felt like nothing, you know.
我感觉没什么，你知道的。
I was like, what am I doing?
我当时想，我在做什么？
They saw me.
他们看到了我。
I almost had a breakdown.
我几乎要崩溃了。
So they took me inside.
于是他们就带我进去了。
And they were just talking.
他们只是在说话。
And the guy, the owner of the house, is an older man.
而这个人，也就是这栋房子的主人，是个上了年纪的男人。
And he was like, listen, your dad is definitely concerned about your life more than he's concerned about his own.
他说，听着，你爸爸肯定更关心你的生活，而不是他自己的生活。
But just go back and be with your family.
但还是回去和家人在一起吧。
I said, what if I go back and they come back here again?
我说，如果我回去他们又回到这里怎么办？
And he he was like, no, it was just broadcasted on the news that people are allowed to get in the city but not out of the city.
他说，不，只是新闻里播的，人们可以进城，但不能出城。
So you're going to be able to go back.
所以你将能够回去。
They're not going to be able to leave anymore.
他们将无法再离开。
And that's what I did.
这就是我所做的。
I went back.
我回去了。
I was praying, all the way, that I'd find them and that they're not going to be angry.
一路上我都在祈祷我能找到他们，祈祷他们不会生气。
So I went back home.
于是我就回家了。
And I saw their car was parked outside.
我看到他们的车停在外面。
So I knew they were there.
所以我知道他们在那里。
And my mom was outside in the garage waiting.
我妈妈在外面的车库里等着。
And she was holding prayer beads at the time.
当时她手里拿着念珠。
And she was just praying and stuff.
她只是在祈祷之类的。
I saw her.
我看到她了。
And I came down.
我下来了。
She really hugged me.
她真的拥抱了我。
And she was crying.
她在哭。
And she was like, never do this again.
她说，再也不要这样做了。
Haider's father was more reserved.
海德尔的父亲则比较保守。
He gave his son the silent treatment at first.
起初他对儿子保持沉默。
Ignoring his advice about the Ministry of Information job was one thing.
忽视他关于信息部工作的建议是一回事。
But coming back to Baghdad?
但回到巴格达？
Their family's house was close to three major military targets-- the Baghdad airport, Iraq's national security headquarters, and one of Saddam's main palaces.
他们家的房子靠近三个主要军事目标——巴格达机场、伊拉克国家安全总部和萨达姆的主要宫殿之一。
The whole neighborhood was being evacuated.
整个街区都被疏散了。
All the major roads were closed.
所有主要道路都被封闭。
And now, getting out of the city would be tough.
而现在，离开这座城市将是困难的。
So we all go.
所以我们都走了。
We had a family meeting, and we're talking.
我们开了一个家庭会议，我们正在讨论。
And we were suggesting ideas.
我们正在提出想法。
And my dad was like, nobody suggest anything.
我父亲说，没有人提出任何建议。
It's going to be my call.
这将由我决定。
And we're going to go all the way south, as far as we can.
我们将一路向南，尽可能远。
Because if they're going to invade, the US troops will invade from Kuwait, from the south.
因为如果他们要入侵，美军将从科威特、从南部入侵。
So we're going to go to a point where we're going to be behind their lines as soon as possible.
因此，我们将尽快到达他们的后方。
You know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
He's like--
他就像——
Yeah, no, absolutely.
是的，不，绝对。
Haider Hamza He said, they're going to pass us-- exactly.
海德尔·哈姆扎（Haider Hamza） 他说，他们将会超越我们——确实如此。
Exactly, he said, if there's a war, if there's an invasion, they're going to pass us in the early days.
确切地说，他说，如果发生战争，如果发生入侵，他们很快就会超越我们。
And then if they're going to siege Baghdad, or bomb Baghdad, or whatever, we're going to be safe.
然后，如果他们要围攻巴格达，或轰炸巴格达，或者其他什么，我们就会安全。
So it was back in the car, this time headed in the opposite direction.
于是它又回到车里，这次朝相反的方向行驶。
And there was something new to worry about.
还有一些新的事情需要担心。
The Iraqi army was looking for anyone over 17 to send to the front lines.
伊拉克军队正在寻找 17 岁以上的人派往前线。
They'd put up checkpoints on highways and bridges.
他们在高速公路和桥梁上设立了检查站。
Haider's father was too old, and his younger brother had yet to hit puberty.
海德尔的父亲年纪太大，弟弟还没有进入青春期。
So if the car were stopped, it was Haider who was likely to be seized.
所以如果车被拦下来，被抓的很可能就是海德尔。
And my dad was very paranoid that I'm going to be taken away.
我爸爸非常偏执，担心我会被带走。
And he had a plan.
他有一个计划。
He was thinking of a plan.
他正在思考一个计划。
So what if we accidentally run through a checkpoint and they want to take you away?
如果我们不小心闯过检查站，他们想把你带走怎么办？
What are we going to say?
我们要说什么？
My mom said, oh, we have to tell them that you're retarded.
我妈妈说，哦，我们必须告诉他们你是弱智。
And you have to act retarded.
而且你必须表现得迟钝。
And we're going to say he's retarded.
我们会说他是弱智。
You can't take him.
你不能带走他。
And I was rehearsing in the back with my sister.
我和姐姐在后面排练。
I was rehearsing being retarded, basically.
我在排练时基本上是迟钝的。
And I would, like, just have my tongue out.
我想，只是伸出我的舌头。
Like blah, blah, blah, and that kind of stuff.
比如诸如此类的事情。
I mean, now it sounds funny.
我的意思是，现在听起来很有趣。
But at the time it wasn't.
但当时并非如此。
My sister thought it was funny, but-- I was talking to my sister, like listen, don't look at me if we ever get caught.
我姐姐觉得这很有趣，但是——我正在和我姐姐说话，听着，如果我们被抓住，不要看我。
Because I'm going to laugh if I see you laughing.
因为如果我看到你笑我就会笑。
So just turn your face off.
所以，把你的脸转过去吧。
And I was talking to her.
我正在和她说话。
Then my dad stopped the car, and he turned back, and he said, listen, this is not a joke.
然后我爸爸把车停了下来，他回头说，听着，这不是一个笑话。
This is your life we're talking about here.
这就是我们在这里谈论的你的生活。
He literally said, this is not a show.
他直言不讳地说，这不是一场表演。
After a tense four and a half hours in the car, Haider and his family finally made it to a tiny tribal village in Diyala province, close to the Kuwait border.
在车里度过了紧张的四个半小时后，海德尔和他的家人终于到达了迪亚拉省靠近科威特边境的一个小部落村庄。
There, Haider's father had arranged with a family friend to stay as guests until it was safe to return to Baghdad.
海德尔的父亲与一位家庭朋友安排在那里作为客人留下来，直到安全返回巴格达。
Haider unpacked his things from the car and introduced himself to the large countrified family who were now his new hosts.
海德尔从车上打开行李，向这个乡村大家庭介绍了自己，他们现在是他的新主人。
That night, crammed in the living room, they listened together to radio reports of air strikes across Iraq.
那天晚上，他们挤在客厅里，一起听广播里有关伊拉克空袭的报道。
The war had begun.
战争开始了。
The next morning, everything was different.
第二天早上，一切都不同了。
I remember I walked out of the house.
我记得我走出家门。
And everyone was trying to get at the door.
每个人都试图走到门口。
And we were looking down the road.
我们正在看着路。
And on the main highway there were American soldiers with the full gear.
主干道上站着全副武装的美国士兵。
They were on one knee down, on the gunning position.
他们单膝跪地，处于射击位置。
And they were not moving.
他们一动不动。
It was as if they were statues.
就好像它们是雕像一样。
And they just showed overnight.
他们只是在一夜之间表现出来。
At night, no one would go out, of course, because there were sirens.
晚上当然没有人出去，因为有警报。
So when you can go out in the morning, you saw them.
所以当你早上可以出去的时候，你就看到了他们。
And they were not there the last time you checked.
上次你检查时他们并不在那里。
So it was like they showed out of nowhere.
所以他们就像是凭空出现的。
And the people were just staring at them.
人们只是盯着他们。
It was funny.
这很有趣。
It was like watching E.T.
这就像看 E.T.
landing in your front yard.
降落在你的前院。
Seriously, that's how they were looking at them.
说真的，他们就是这样看待他们的。
People didn't know, should they walk down and talk to them?
人们不知道，是否应该走下去和他们说话？
Should they be friendly?
他们应该友好吗？
Should they not?
他们不应该吗？
I couldn't wait, actually, to go talk to them.
事实上，我迫不及待地想去和他们谈谈。
Very quickly, Haider got his chance.
很快，海德尔就得到了机会。
The Americans were the Army's Third Infantry Division.
美国人是陆军第三步兵师。
On that first night they had arrested two local imams.
第一天晚上，他们就逮捕了两名当地阿訇。
This did not go over well.
这件事进行得并不顺利。
Several villagers, including Haider's host family, approached the American army to plead for the imams' release.
包括海德尔寄宿家庭在内的几名村民向美国军队请求释放阿訇。
But something was getting lost in translation.
但翻译过程中有些东西丢失了。
The Americans had an interpreter, an Egyptian.
美国人有一名翻译，是一名埃及人。
But he was having a very tough time penetrating the town's rural Iraqi dialect.
但他很难理解该镇的伊拉克乡村方言。
Perhaps, the villagers suggested, Haider might be able to help.
村民们建议，也许海德尔可以提供帮助。
He spoke English well, and he had talked to Americans before.
他英语说得很好，以前也和美国人交谈过。
So Haider went to speak with the Americans and brokered the imams' release.
于是海德尔去与美国人交谈并促成了伊玛目的释放。
He walked out of the base a hero.
他以英雄的姿态走出基地。
Later that day, a squad of American soldiers showed up at his door asking if he was interested in taking over the translator's job.
那天晚些时候，一队美国士兵出现在他家门口，询问他是否有兴趣接替翻译的工作。
It would be a chance for Haider and his family to get back to Baghdad with American protection.
这对海德尔和他的家人来说是一个在美国保护下返回巴格达的机会。
Haider was intrigued.
海德尔很感兴趣。
His dad, not so much.
他的父亲，没那么多。
My dad was totally against the idea.
我父亲完全反对这个想法。
I loved the idea.
我喜欢这个主意。
I was like, of course.
我当时想，当然。
Sure.
当然。
I'm going to go.
我要走了。
And he was like, no you're not.
他说，不，你不是。
I was like, yes I am.
我当时想，是的，我是。
And he was like, no. And we were talking about it.
他说，不。我们正在谈论它。
I was like, listen, it's a good way to make money.
我当时想，听着，这是赚钱的好方法。
It's a good way to have protection.
这是获得保护的好方法。
And I want to go to Baghdad.
我想去巴格达。
And they will take me to Baghdad.
他们将带我去巴格达。
I would rather be with them than be alone, because I'll be in the armored vehicles and stuff.
我宁愿和他们在一起也不愿独自一人，因为我会在装甲车之类的地方。
And he was like, you're crazy.
他说，你疯了。
No. He said, listen.
不，他说，听着。
Throughout history, whenever there's an occupation, whenever there are foreign soldiers, there's always a resistance.
纵观历史，只要有占领，只要有外国士兵，总会有反抗。
We still don't know how strong the resistance is going to be.
我们仍然不知道阻力会有多强。
We still don't know how ruthless it's going to be.
我们仍然不知道它会变得多么无情。
So it's too early to take any sides.
所以现在选边站还为时过早。
You should just not take any sides.
你不应该偏袒任何一方。
Don't show that you are the American side.
别表现出你是美国方面。
Don't show that you're with the resistance.
不要表现出你支持抵抗。
Just don't take any sides now.
只是现在不要偏袒任何一方。
And that's how your dad had survived, right?
你爸爸就是这样活下来的，对吧？
Exactly.
确切地。
Gideon Yago That's how he had been so--
吉迪恩·雅戈 他就是这样——
And that's what he told me.
这就是他告诉我的。
He said, listen, I've been through several changes.
他说，听着，我经历了一些改变。
And the only way I made it so far is by not joining sides when it's too early.
到目前为止，我能做到这一点的唯一方法就是不要在太早的时候加入阵营。
Haider was starting to realize that he and his father looked at life very differently.
海德尔开始意识到他和父亲对生活的看法截然不同。
Haider's dad had always survived by being cautious, keeping a low profile.
海德尔的父亲一直靠谨慎、低调而生存。
To Haider that sounded like a perfect plan for wasting away.
对海德尔来说，这听起来像是一个完美的消瘦计划。
I would tell him that I would rather regret things I've done than regret things I haven't done.
我会告诉他，我宁愿为自己做过的事后悔，也不愿为自己没做过的事后悔。
For him it was no. It was just if you have doubts about anything, just don't try.
对他来说，答案是否定的。只是如果你对任何事情有疑问，就不要尝试。
And then you won't regret it.
然后你就不会后悔。
Because you didn't try, so it wouldn't go wrong.
因为你没有尝试过，所以不会出错。
Basically my dad would say that his ideology is, or theory is, to-- He would always say that you should climb the stairs step after step.
基本上我父亲会说他的意识形态，或者理论是——他总是说你应该一步一步地爬楼梯。
Not jump any steps.
不跳任何台阶。
Because if you jump, you can tremble and fall, and go all the way down the stairs.
因为如果你跳下去，你就会颤抖着摔倒，然后一路走下楼梯。
I jump steps.
我跳步。
With the war, suddenly a new world had arrived in Iraq, with a new set of rules.
随着战争的爆发，伊拉克突然迎来了一个新的世界，并制定了一套新的规则。
And Haider saw it as full of possibilities for someone willing to stick his neck out.
海德尔认为，对于愿意冒险的人来说，这充满了可能性。
So he took the Americans up on their offer.
因此他接受了美国人的提议。
And the family split up.
然后一家人就解散了。
Haider would ride back to Baghdad with the Americans in a Bradley assault vehicle.
海德尔将与美国人一起乘坐布拉德利突击车返回巴格达。
His father and siblings would stay behind.
他的父亲和兄弟姐妹会留下来。
His mother would keep an eye on Haider, following the American convoy in the family car.
他的母亲会开着家里的车跟着美国车队，注视着海德尔。
About an hour and a half outside of the city, Haider saw smoke over Baghdad.
距离城外大约一个半小时，海德尔看到巴格达上空冒着浓烟。
And as they got closer, wreckage from the US assault.
当他们越来越近时，美军袭击造成的残骸。
I remember when I saw all that, I saw all the military vehicles completely destroyed.
我记得当我看到这一切时，我看到所有的军车都被彻底摧毁了。
We saw all the destruction, the houses, all the headquarters of the Ba'ath party knocked down.
我们看到所有的破坏，房屋，复兴党的所有总部都被推倒了。
You didn't know-- you go back and say, oh but wait, that's my country.
你不知道——你回去说，哦，等等，那是我的国家。
Oh but wait, that was my army.
哦，等等，那是我的军队。
And this is not my army that I'm with.
我所在的这不是我的军队。
Who are these people then?
那么这些人是谁呢？
And that's when you start asking that.
那就是你开始问这个问题的时候。
I remember, that's when I said, you know what?
我记得当时我说，你知道吗？
I want to be with my family.
我想和我的家人在一起。
I want to be in the car.
我想在车里。
I don't want to be in the Bradley.
我不想呆在布拉德利。
It was not cool anymore.
已经不酷了。
It didn't feel so cool.
感觉不太酷。
It felt weird.
感觉很奇怪。
It felt awkward.
感觉很尴尬。
And I kept going back and forth.
我不断地来回走动。
I kept having these trials like, no, I should get over it.
我不断经历这些考验，就像，不，我应该克服它。
I shouldn't be so emotional.
我不应该这么情绪化。
Saddam didn't represent me anyway.
无论如何，萨达姆并不代表我。
Saddam was not a-- it was not a democratic regime that we had.
萨达姆不是我们所拥有的民主政权。
It was a dictatorship.
这是一个独裁统治。
So that wasn't my army anyway, or my country.
所以那无论如何都不是我的军队，也不是我的国家。
But then you go, no, but it is.
但你会发现，不，但确实如此。
It was very, like, you had this conflict going on all throughout the roads.
整个道路上都在发生这种冲突。
Just a month before, Haider was working for Saddam Hussein.
就在一个月前，海德尔还在为萨达姆侯赛因工作。
And now here he was, riding into town with the invaders.
现在他就在这里，和入侵者一起骑马进城。
His father had warned him about picking sides too soon.
他的父亲警告过他不要过早选边站队。
And he was starting to regret the one that he'd picked.
他开始后悔自己所选择的那个。
So shortly after he got back to Baghdad, Haider quit his job with the Americans.
因此，海德尔回到巴格达后不久，就辞去了美国人的工作。
Coming up, out of one dangerous job and into one that's probably even more dangerous.
即将离开一项危险的工作，进入一项可能更危险的工作。
That's in a minute on Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International.
稍后将在芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台播出。
When our program continues.
当我们的计划继续进行时。
[MUSIC - ALA HONAK" BY SAJADA AL UBAID]
[音乐 - ALA HONAK”，作者：SAJADA AL UBAID]
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's show, stories of people discovering the big, wide, dangerous world.
今天的节目讲述的是人们发现广阔、危险的世界的故事。
Gideon Yago's story about Haider Hamza continues.
吉迪恩·亚戈 (Gideon Yago) 关于海德尔·哈姆扎 (Haider Hamza) 的故事仍在继续。
Haider spent his days at home.
海德尔在家里度过了他的日子。
And his father, sisters, and brother had returned from the south.
他的父亲、姐妹和兄弟也从南方回来了。
There was no running water in their home, no regular electricity in Baghdad.
他们家里没有自来水，巴格达也没有正常的电力。
He was 19, packed in the house with his family, hot, bored, and with no exit strategy.
他当时 19 岁，和家人挤在家里，闷热、无聊，而且没有退出策略。
If he was going to stay sane, he needed to get out of the house.
如果他想保持理智，他就需要走出家门。
So he decided to look for work as a translator.
于是他决定找一份翻译工作。
He got a job with Reuters, and later with ABC News.
他在路透社找到了一份工作，后来又在美国广播公司新闻部找到了一份工作。
The city was cracking up into different factions.
这座城市分裂成不同的派系。
And Haider thought that working with the media was the smart thing to do.
海德尔认为与媒体合作是明智之举。
I felt that with all the chaos happening, with all the different parties being formed-- the Americans, the insurgency, the radical Islamists, the nationalists, Saddam's loyalists, the political parties, the Kurds, the Shias, the Sunnis-- all these parties being formed around you.
我觉得随着所有混乱的发生，所有不同的政党都在形成——美国人、叛乱分子、激进伊斯兰主义者、民族主义者、萨达姆的效忠者、政党、库尔德人、什叶派、逊尼派——所有这些政党都在你周围形成。
Everyone is getting into groups.
每个人都在分组。
You either join one of these groups, or you need to get a protection.
您要么加入这些团体之一，要么需要获得保护。
You can't be by your own.
你不能独自一人。
If you're alone, you're a very soft target.
如果你独自一人，你就是一个非常软的目标。
So I thought my protection was going to be by working with the media.
所以我认为我的保护将通过与媒体合作来实现。
You have media badge, you're protected.
您拥有媒体徽章，您受到保护。
You're protected by your organization, your network.
您受到您的组织和网络的保护。
You're protected by the US military and from the US military in the same time.
你同时受到美军的保护和免受美军的伤害。
I remember there was-- when they do a military operation, they just go raiding houses.
我记得有——当他们进行军事行动时，他们只是去袭击房屋。
My house was raided twice.
我的房子被袭击了两次。
Random raids.
随机袭击。
They broke down the door, because that's how they do it.
他们破门而入，因为他们就是这样做的。
I don't know why they never knock.
我不知道为什么他们从来不敲门。
They just kick down the door.
他们只是踢开门。
They go inside, they start shouting and screaming at everyone.
他们走进去，开始对每个人大喊大叫。
The power is off, and they have these torch lights on their rifles.
电源已关闭，他们的步枪上装有这些手电筒。
And all you see is the lights running around.
你所看到的只是四处奔跑的灯光。
And you panic.
你惊慌失措。
You don't know what to do.
你不知道该怎么办。
But when they came into my house and they did all of this-- they knocked the door down-- I stayed in my room, waiting for them to come in.
但是当他们走进我的房子并做了所有这些事情——他们把门敲开——我留在我的房间里，等待他们进来。
It's not a good idea to go out looking for them.
出去寻找他们并不是一个好主意。
You might as well wait for them to come to you.
你不妨等他们来找你。
So they walked into my room and stuff.
所以他们走进了我的房间之类的东西。
And I showed them all my badges.
我向他们展示了我所有的徽章。
And I said, I work for the media.
我说，我为媒体工作。
Basically, you're just not like a poor Iraqi guy who doesn't know what to do, who doesn't know what his rights are.
基本上，你不像一个可怜的伊拉克人，他不知道该做什么，不知道自己的权利是什么。
You're like an aristocrat.
你就像一个贵族。
Haider Hamza They would know that you're a journalist.
海德尔·哈姆扎：他们会知道你是一名记者。
You know what your rights are.
你知道你的权利是什么。
You're going to go back and report all this.
你要回去报告这一切。
You have contacts in the media.
您在媒体上有联系。
You have contacts in the Iraqi government.
你在伊拉克政府有联系。
You have contacts at the US military.
您在美国军方有联系。
So they ended up paying for the door they knocked down.
所以他们最终为他们撞倒的门付出了代价。
They paid us compensations.
他们向我们支付了赔偿金。
They apologized.
他们道歉了。
And they gave me a camel bag.
他们给了我一个骆驼包。
That I just thought it was cool to have one.
我只是觉得拥有一个很酷。
But things were tense at home.
但家里的气氛很紧张。
While Haider was going out on assignment, the rest of the family was stuck in the house.
当海德尔外出执行任务时，家里的其他人都被困在房子里。
His father was retired.
他的父亲退休了。
His older sister had dropped out of Baghdad U.
他的姐姐已从巴格达大学退学。
And his little brother and sisters had stopped going to grammar school classes.
他的弟弟妹妹也不再去文法学校上课了。
Once again, Haider's dad would make noise whenever his son would come home about Haider's decisions, his job.
每当他的儿子回家谈论海德尔的决定和他的工作时，海德尔的父亲都会再一次发出噪音。
He thought they were too risky, too public.
他认为它们太冒险、太公开了。
Haider began to lie, telling his dad that he spent his days chained to some desk, filing papers, stuff like that.
海德尔开始撒谎，告诉他的父亲，他整天都被锁在桌子上，归档文件之类的。
Instead, he was in the field, covering the Marine offensive in Fallujah or at interviews with heads of state in the Green Zone.
相反，他在现场报道海军陆战队在费卢杰的攻势，或者在绿区接受国家元首的采访。
Or covering Saddam's trial.
或者报道萨达姆的审判。
Then the city really started to go nuts.
然后这个城市真的开始发疯了。
Remember the TV show that Haider had participated in at the beginning of this story, Bridge to Baghdad ?
还记得海德尔在故事开始时参加的电视节目《巴格达之桥》吗？
A few months after the invasion, the producers came back to tape a follow-up with the same teens, only this time, no Ministry of Information minders.
入侵几个月后，制片人回来录制了同样的青少年的后续节目，只是这一次没有信息部的看守。
They wanted an honest conversation, where the kids were free to speak their minds.
他们想要一次诚实的对话，让孩子们可以自由地表达自己的想法。
The Iraqi teens agreed to do the show, but on one condition-- that it would not air in the Middle East.
伊拉克青少年同意出演该节目，但有一个条件——该节目不得在中东播出。
It was mid-2003, and the stances that you took in Baghdad were starting to have very real repercussions.
那是 2003 年中期，你们在巴格达采取的立场开始产生非常实际的影响。
The kids were assured that the show wouldn't make it onto the Arab airwaves.
孩子们得到保证，该节目不会出现在阿拉伯电视台。
But somehow, without the producers at Downtown Community Television knowing, the program found its way on to Al Jazeera.
但不知何故，在市中心社区电视台的制片人不知情的情况下，该节目进入了半岛电视台。
For a week leading up to the airing, Al Jazeera heavily promoted it, using the most inflammatory clips from the Iraqi teens.
在播出前一周，半岛电视台大力宣传它，使用了伊拉克青少年最具煽动性的片段。
Here are two, Saif and Waleed.
这里有两个人，赛义夫和瓦利德。
I've waited to say this word for 19 years.
我等这句话已经等了19年了。
I hate this man.
我讨厌这个人。
Saddam Hussein, of course, everybody knows that he's a big torturist.
萨达姆侯赛因，当然，每个人都知道他是一个大酷刑者。
We are glad to get rid of him.
我们很高兴摆脱他。
We don't agree with him.
我们不同意他的观点。
Gideon Yago There's actually nothing that bad in the show.
吉迪恩·亚戈（Gideon Yago） 这部剧实际上并没有那么糟糕。
Mainly Haider and the rest of the kids talking about how devastating the invasion and occupation had become.
主要是海德尔和其他孩子在谈论入侵和占领造成的破坏性。
But Haider was nervous, particularly because the show ended with one of the teenagers playing a new song that he'd written with his heavy metal band.
但海德尔很紧张，特别是因为演出结束时，其中一名青少年演奏了一首他与重金属乐队共同创作的新歌。
It was called "Saddam Sucks."
它被称为“萨达姆糟透了”。
I knew it was going to be aired now.
我知道现在就要播出了。
I remember my mom also went in to pray that no one would watch it.
我记得我妈妈也进去祈祷不要有人看。
Pray for low ratings?
为低收视率祈祷？
Haider Hamza Yes.
海德尔·哈姆扎 是的。
Exactly.
正是如此。
She was praying that nobody has electricity.
她祈祷没有人有电。
No one's going to be able to watch it.
没有人能够看到它。
And I'm not going to get in any trouble.
我不会遇到任何麻烦。
Then the way I knew that people did watch it, is that-- I think it was aired on a Wednesday night or something.
然后我知道人们确实观看了它的方式是——我认为它是在周三晚上或其他时间播出的。
On Friday morning, there was the Friday prayers, which is the big prayers for the Muslims.
星期五早上，有星期五祈祷，这是穆斯林的大型祈祷。
It's like the Sunday mass for Christians, basically.
基本上，这就像基督徒的周日弥撒。
So in Friday prayers, there is always a speech by the imam, just like there's a speech by the priest.
因此，在星期五的祈祷中，总是有伊玛目的讲话，就像牧师的讲话一样。
But the difference, in the mosque there are loudspeakers.
但不同的是，清真寺里有扩音器。
So for those who can not make it to the mosque, they will listen to the speech while they're at home.
因此，对于那些无法前往清真寺的人，他们将在家中聆听演讲。
All you need to do is just open the window.
您所需要做的只是打开窗户。
It's really loud.
真的很大声。
I don't usually listen to the speeches that much.
我通常不太听演讲。
But it was there, and someone was shouting.
但它就在那里，有人在喊叫。
And I was just walking around in the house, doing whatever I was doing.
我只是在屋子里走来走去，做我该做的事。
And then, suddenly I heard my full name in the speech.
然后，我突然在演讲中听到了我的全名。
I was like, was that my name?
我当时想，这是我的名字吗？
And then, basically he was saying that a group of young Iraqis who claimed to be Muslims-- he didn't even call us Muslims-- have participated in a show on a channel of infidels.
然后，基本上他是在说，一群自称是穆斯林的年轻伊拉克人——他甚至没有称我们为穆斯林——参加了一个异教徒频道的节目。
Pamphlets started to appear in the street with Haider's picture on them.
街上开始出现印有海德尔照片的小册子。
Wanted posters.
想要海报。
Threatening his family's safety and Haider's life.
威胁他家人的安全和海德尔的生命。
The day after the imam's speech, Haider came home to find his parents had packed his bags and left them at the front door.
伊玛目演讲后的第二天，海德尔回到家，发现父母已经把他的行李收拾好了，放在前门。
It was too dangerous for him to stay at home anymore.
对他来说，再呆在家里太危险了。
He moved into his office in the Green Zone for a while.
他搬进了绿区的办公室一段时间。
Day in, day out, Haider's parents begged him to quit.
海德尔的父母日复一日地恳求他戒烟。
So I would always say, OK, one more month.
所以我总是会说，好吧，再一个月。
OK, something's going to come up.
好吧，有事情要发生了。
I'm going to get an offer somewhere overseas.
我要去海外某个地方拿到offer。
Something's going to happen, you know?
有事要发生，你知道吗？
And that was the only hope, because otherwise you would sit at home and hope for what?
这是唯一的希望，否则你会坐在家里希望什么呢？
Maybe I'm going to die as well.
也许我也会死。
That's the thing.
就是这样。
And yet before the war, there were certain red lines during Saddam's regime.
然而，在战前，萨达姆政权期间存在着某些红线。
You don't talk bad about him.
你不会说他坏话。
You don't talk bad about his regime.
你不会说他的政权坏话。
You don't talk bad about his character.
你不会说他人品的坏话。
You'll be OK.
你会没事的。
No one's going to hurt you.
没有人会伤害你。
You do, you die.
你这样做，你就死了。
Now, there are no red lines.
现在，已经没有红线了。
If there are, then they're invisible.
如果有，那么它们是不可见的。
You don't know what they there.
你不知道那里有什么。
You can be standing on the traffic light, and the car next to you goes off, and you die.
你可能正站在红绿灯上，旁边的车突然熄火，你就死了。
Just a lost bullet goes through your head.
只是一颗丢失的子弹穿过你的头。
You're driving and a US convoy shows out of nowhere, and they open fire, you get caught in the firefight and you die.
你正在开车，一支美国车队突然出现，他们开火，你陷入交火，然后你就死了。
You go shopping in the market, and a suicide bomber blows himself up, and you-- so it's not up to you anymore.
你去市场购物，一名自杀式炸弹袭击者引爆了自己，而你——所以这不再取决于你了。
It's not that you avoid certain things and you survive.
这并不是说你避免了某些事情就可以生存。
Haider ran this argument by his father.
海德尔根据他父亲的说法转述了这一论点。
And his father said it was all the more reason to stay inside.
他的父亲说，这更有理由呆在家里。
Like he said, you don't go and jump off a bridge and you say, well, maybe I'll die, and maybe something-- a miracle is going to happen, and I'm not going to die.
就像他说的，你不会从桥上跳下来，然后说，好吧，也许我会死，也许会发生什么——奇迹会发生，而我不会死。
So if you hide at home, you have much higher chances of surviving.
因此，如果你躲在家里，你的生存机会就会高得多。
But I was looking at it as a slow death.
但我认为这是一种缓慢的死亡。
To sit at home with no electricity, no water, fighting with my dad all day, that is slow death.
坐在家里，没有电，没有水，整天和我爸爸打架，那就是慢性死亡。
That's how death is like.
死亡就是这样的。
My world was much bigger than my parents' world.
我的世界比我父母的世界大得多。
That was the problem.
这就是问题所在。
My dad's world is his home and his kids.
我父亲的世界就是他的家和他的孩子。
It's not even the neighborhood, because he can not go out.
甚至不是邻居，因为他不能出去。
That's his world.
那是他的世界。
So that's why, for him, I mean so much, because his world is so small that everything in it just means everything.
所以这就是为什么，对他来说，我意义重大，因为他的世界很小，里面的一切都意味着一切。
My world was much bigger.
我的世界要大得多。
My world was like media, with globalization as a world.
我的世界就像媒体，以全球化作为世界。
My world is like America, and Iraq, and Britain, and the coalition forces, and everything.
我的世界就像美国、伊拉克、英国、联军等等。
That's my world.
这就是我的世界。
So my world was much bigger than that.
所以我的世界比那要大得多。
So will I give all this up and go to the much smaller, limited world?
那么我会放弃这一切，去一个更小、更有限的世界吗？
I can't.
我不能。
You can't.
你不能。
After a while, you can't.
过了一段时间，你就不能了。
You just can't.
你就是不能。
So when it came to your dad trying to be a parent, did he even have a chance?
那么当你的父亲想要成为一名父母时，他有机会吗？
Well, that was the struggle.
嗯，这就是斗争。
He had the feeling that he is not needed.
他有一种感觉，他被不需要了。
I don't need him.
我不需要他。
I don't need a dad anymore, which I'm sure was not easy for him.
我不再需要父亲了，我确信这对他来说并不容易。
And he would always walk up to me and say never give up having a dad.
他总是走到我面前并对我说永远不要放弃有一个父亲。
Don't-- he would literally use the term like don't put me on the shelf yet.
不要——他真的会用这个词，就像不要把我放在架子上一样。
Haider kept working for two more years as a producer and translator, while all around him, the new Iraq disintegrated.
海德尔又继续担任制片人和翻译两年，而在他周围，新的伊拉克正在分崩离析。
Then one day, on a field assignment in Najaf, Haider finally understood what his father had been trying to tell him.
有一天，在纳杰夫的一次实地考察中，海德尔终于明白了父亲一直想告诉他的事情。
He was there to cover Ashura, the annual Shia pilgrimage, which every year since the start of the war has come under attack with car bombings and shootings.
他在那里报道一年一度的什叶派朝圣阿舒拉节，自战争爆发以来，每年都会遭受汽车炸弹和枪击事件的袭击。
And just a warning to listeners, this is where the story gets a little graphic.
只是对听众的警告，这就是故事变得有点生动的地方。
You know Ashura?
你知道阿修罗吗？
Pretty violent.
相当暴力。
And there's a blast every year.
而且每年都会有爆款。
And people know it.
人们都知道这一点。
And you know what?
你知道吗？
That's what is sad.
这就是可悲之处。
We go there.
我们去那里。
We know people will die.
我们知道人们会死。
And that's why we go, so we're going to be there when they die.
这就是我们去的原因，所以当他们去世时我们会在那里。
So it was like, I tell you there is a time bomb next door.
就像，我告诉你隔壁有一颗定时炸弹。
And you say, oh, OK, great.
你说，哦，好吧，太好了。
And you go next door, and you set up your camera so you can film the time bomb when it goes off.
你走到隔壁，架起相机，这样你就可以在定时炸弹爆炸时拍摄它。
And that's sad.
这很悲伤。
So they were going to say, OK, there's Ashura.
所以他们会说，好吧，阿舒拉来了。
People are going to die.
人们将会死去。
You have to go and be ready.
你必须去做好准备。
And get us a decent life position so we get good shots of people dying.
让我们有一个体面的生活姿势，这样我们就能拍摄到人们死亡的好照片。
That's the level that we got there.
这就是我们达到的水平。
And we do it.
我们做到了。
And 3 million people gather.
300万人聚集。
They know some of them are going to die.
他们知道其中一些人会死。
They still come.
他们还是来了。
And I didn't tell my parents.
而且我没有告诉我的父母。
My parents were like, if you're going to go to that, that's suicide, if you're going to go to that ceremony.
我的父母说，如果你要去参加那个仪式，那就是自杀。
Because people are going to die.
因为人都会死。
You're going to be one of them.
你将成为他们中的一员。
Don't go.
别走。
I said, oh, I promise I'm not going.
我说，哦，我保证我不会去。
I had to go.
我必须走了。
I told them I'm going north, like just the opposite side.
我告诉他们我要往北走，就在对面。
I'm going there to cover whatever, I told them.
我告诉他们，我要去那里报道任何事情。
There was a golf field opened.
那里有一个高尔夫球场开放。
They're opening a golf field on the US military base for the officers to go play with their cigars and stuff.
他们正在美国军事基地开辟一个高尔夫球场，供军官们去玩雪茄之类的东西。
And we did do that story, as well.
我们也确实做了那个故事。
But I wasn't on that team.
但我并不在那个团队中。
So I told them I was going to do that instead.
所以我告诉他们我要这样做。
I went down there.
我去了那里。
And the last day of December, we knew there was going to be something.
十二月的最后一天，我们知道将会发生一些事情。
All the cameras were rolling 24 hours, because we knew it was going to be any second, and we wanted to catch it.
所有摄像机都 24 小时不间断拍摄，因为我们知道任何一秒都会发生，而且我们想捕捉到它。
You see how crazy it is.
你看这有多疯狂。
So we were rolling, and it happened.
所以我们一直在滚动，结果就发生了。
There were seven blasts, a series of seven blasts in a row.
七声爆炸，连续七次爆炸。
About 400 people were killed.
大约400人被杀。
That's a lot of people.
那是很多人。
And I remember the scene, what you see when the blast-- when the bomb goes off.
我记得那个场景，当爆炸时——当炸弹爆炸时你所看到的。
You actually can see the bodies just flying in the air.
你实际上可以看到尸体在空中飞行。
And I was down with the crowd at the time.
当时我和人群一起倒下了。
I was looking at my trousers, my pants, and I saw all these tiny pieces of human flesh that stuck to you.
我看着我的裤子，我的裤子，我看到所有这些细小的人肉碎片都粘在你身上。
I didn't know what they were in the beginning.
一开始我并不知道它们是什么。
I was looking.
我正在寻找。
I was like, that's meat.
我当时想，那是肉。
And then I was like, wait a second.
然后我就想，等一下。
That's human flesh.
那是人肉。
One of the cameramen came in.
一名摄影师进来了。
He had a tape.
他有一盘磁带。
I was sitting in the SNG just feeding stuff.
我坐在 SNG 里只是喂东西。
And he came.
他来了。
He had a tape.
他有一盘磁带。
And he had a nervous breakdown.
他精神崩溃了。
He was like, blah, blah, blah.
他就像，巴拉，巴拉，巴拉。
He couldn't talk.
他无法说话。
I was like, what?
我当时想，什么？
And he said, he died, blah, blah, blah.
他说，他死了，等等，等等。
So I took the tape.
于是我拿走了磁带。
And there was a scene, a horrific scene.
然后出现了一个场景，一个可怕的场景。
A woman, she was Iranian, because a lot of Iranians come to the ceremony.
一个女人，她是伊朗人，因为很多伊朗人来参加仪式。
And she was-- you could see her holding her child, like from the armpits like that.
她——你可以看到她抱着她的孩子，就像从腋窝里那样。
His head was laying down.
他的头垂了下来。
She was so silent.
她是那么沉默。
She was not crying, she was not shouting, she was not weeping.
她没有哭，她没有喊叫，她没有哭泣。
She was just quiet, looking around, holding her son.
她只是安静地环顾四周，抱着儿子。
And her son is only-- he was cut from here.
而她的儿子只是——他是从这里被砍掉的。
You can't see.
你看不到。
Just from over the belt.
就从皮带上方。
And you can only see the flesh hanging down.
而且只能看到肉垂下来。
And blood was just pouring down from his body.
而鲜血，正从他的身上流淌而下。
And she was holding him as if he was alive and he was a full body, although he's just half-child.
她抱着他，就好像他还活着，是一个完整的身体，尽管他只是半个孩子。
And she was in shock, that she was not reacting at all.
她很震惊，因为她根本没有反应。
She was not even looking at him.
她甚至没有看他。
She was looking around as if she's looking and saying, what are these crazy people?
她环顾四周，仿佛在说，这些疯子是什么？
What are these crazy people doing?
这些疯狂的人在做什么？
And then I saw that.
然后我看到了。
And what it was like-- I thought of my family right away.
那感觉如何——我立刻就想到了我的家人。
And I said, I have to call them.
我说，我得给他们打电话。
I called my family.
我打电话给我的家人。
And my mom picked up the phone.
我妈妈接起了电话。
She was already crying.
她已经哭了。
And she was like, I saw the news.
她说，我看到了新闻。
I know you are there.
我知道你在那里。
She's like, are you fine?
她说，你还好吗？
I was like, yes I am.
我当时想，是的，我是。
And she was like, don't let me-- I mean, in Islam, if a person dies, his family has to wash the body before burial.
她说，别让我——我的意思是，在伊斯兰教中，如果一个人死了，他的家人必须在埋葬前清洗尸体。
She was like, don't let me wash your body one day.
她说，有一天别让我给你洗身体。
And I was like, I'm not.
我当时想，我不是。
She said, I'll go talk to your dad.
她说，我去和你爸爸谈谈。
Your dad knows as well.
你爸爸也知道。
And I said, oh, I'm in so much trouble.
我说，哦，我遇到了很多麻烦。
I don't want to go back home.
我不想回家。
I did go back home.
我确实回家了。
First, both my parents were hugging me and stuff.
首先，我的父母都拥抱我之类的。
And then my dad grabbed me, and sat me down, and said, listen, one of these days I pass away, then it's your fault.
然后我爸爸抓住了我，让我坐下，说，听着，有一天我去世了，那就是你的错了。
It's because of you.
都是因为你。
What does that mean?
这意味着什么？
Haider Hamza It means he was so worried about me, that if he's going to die of a heart attack or stroke, then it's because of me, and my job, and my lifestyle.
Haider Hamza 这意味着他非常担心我，如果他会死于心脏病或中风，那是因为我、我的工作和我的生活方式。
And that for me was very-- I don't know.
这对我来说非常——我不知道。
I didn't expect something like that to come out of him, actually.
其实我没想到他会说出这样的话。
And, I realized--
而且，我意识到——
Why?
为什么？
Haider Hamza I don't know.
海德尔·哈姆扎 我不知道。
Maybe I was too self-centered at that point that I couldn't see-- I would think, oh please, what is all this drama?
也许我当时太以自我为中心，以至于我看不到——我会想，哦拜托，这出戏到底是什么？
I couldn't see how crazy it was, what I was doing.
我看不出我在做什么有多疯狂。
I remember thinking, that was one of the things I considered the most of everything he said all his life to me.
我记得我当时想，这是他一生对我说的最重要的话之一。
He's an older man.
他是个老人了。
If anything happens to him, how would I be able to live with that?
如果他出了什么事，我怎么能忍受呢？
Haider decided that he had to leave Iraq.
海德尔决定他必须离开伊拉克。
An American employee for ABC who Haider had met during the Saddam trial told him about the Fulbright scholarship.
海德尔在萨达姆审判期间遇到的一位美国广播公司的美国雇员向他讲述了富布赖特奖学金的事。
It was a chance for Haider to study in the US for free.
这是海德尔到美国免费学习的机会。
He applied and won.
他申请并获胜。
A year later, Haider was on a plane to New York.
一年后，海德尔登上了飞往纽约的飞机。
I haven't seen my parents since last August.
自从去年八月以来我就没有见过我的父母了。
Though I know they're really proud.
虽然我知道他们真的很自豪。
I know he is really proud, especially now.
我知道他真的很自豪，尤其是现在。
I know he changed, that he changed his thought about me.
我知道他改变了，他改变了对我的看法。
I think he's now wondering, you know what?
我想他现在想知道，你知道吗？
Maybe he was right.
也许他是对的。
Maybe the kid knew what he was doing.
也许这孩子知道他在做什么。
Maybe this is a different time.
也许这是一个不同的时代。
And I'm just the old school.
我只是老派。
And that doesn't work anymore.
那不再起作用了。
When he was 16, he chose to be a spokesman for Iraq.
16岁时，他选择担任伊拉克发言人。
And now, living in New York, he finds that he's still one.
现在，住在纽约，他发现自己仍然是其中一员。
His classmates and people that he meets always have a ton of questions about his hometown, what happened, and what's coming next.
他的同学和他遇到的人总是对他的家乡、发生的事情以及接下来会发生的事情抱有很多疑问。
Though Haider says living in America on the Fulbright scholarship with the US government paying for his college classes, it's confusing.
尽管海德尔说靠富布赖特奖学金生活在美国，美国政府为他支付大学学费，但这令人困惑。
I mean, it's very weird.
我的意思是，这很奇怪。
I have a whole mix of feelings here when I came.
当我来到这里时，我的感受五花八门。
After all, I'm in the country that's in a war with my country.
毕竟，我所在的国家正在与我的国家发生战争。
And the same time, I love this country, and I wanted to come here for so long.
同时，我爱这个国家，我想来这里很久了。
It's my childhood dream to come to New York.
来纽约是我儿时的梦想。
But that was before America invaded Iraq.
但那是在美国入侵伊拉克之前。
So that makes it very-- I don't know.
所以这使得它非常——我不知道。
It makes me feel weird.
这让我感觉很奇怪。
It makes me feel guilty.
这让我感到内疚。
Do I fit here, do I belong here?
我适合这里吗？我属于这里吗？
I still don't know.
我还是不知道。
I still don't know that.
我还是不知道。
That story from Gideon Yago.
吉迪恩·亚戈的故事。
Act One, Continued: Act One, Continued Ira Glass Act Two.
第一幕，续： 第一幕，续 Ira Glass 第二幕。
Well, we just have time for one more quick story about heading out into the unknown of the big, wide world.
好吧，我们还有时间再讲一个关于前往未知的广阔世界的故事。
Sally Goode was born blind.
莎莉·古德生来就失明。
Filmmaker Tony Hill took her to a location but didn't tell her what it was.
电影制片人托尼·希尔带她去了一个地点，但没有告诉她那是什么。
I can sense something in front of me.
我能感觉到有东西在我面前。
I can hear it in the sound.
我可以从声音中听出来。
The sound changes as you're just walking around.
当您四处走动时，声音会发生变化。
This feels quite closed in.
这给人一种很封闭的感觉。
I think it's a wall in front of me.
我认为我面前是一堵墙。
I'm just going to put my hand out.
我只是要伸出我的手。
Yes it is.
是的。
It's a brick wall.
这是一堵砖墙。
We're walking up onto the grass now.
我们现在正走上草地。
Right, we are in front of a rather large object.
没错，我们面前是一个相当大的物体。
A stone arch, about my head height.
一个石拱门，大约我的头高。
And another stone structure.
还有另一个石头结构。
This again is standing on a pedestal like a tower.
这又像一座塔一样矗立在基座上。
This one is kind of cylindrical.
这是一种圆柱形的。
A cylindrical tower this is standing on.
它矗立在一座圆柱形塔上。
And then it comes up to a long barrel-shaped stone object.
然后出现了一个长桶状的石制品。
Just placed on top of the tower horizontally.
只是水平放置在塔顶。
And then on top of it there's another cylindrical object placed vertically on the long the barrel.
然后在它的顶部有另一个圆柱形物体垂直放置在长桶上。
Bang.
砰。
Lots of bangs going on.
很多刘海正在进行中。
I don't know quite what's happening.
我不太清楚发生了什么事。
But you can hear there are quite a lot of birds.
但你可以听到有很多鸟。
Twigs underfoot.
脚下有树枝。
Well, well.
好吧，好吧。
This is quite a big rectangular, extremely tall, extremely wide stone block.
这是一块相当大的长方形石块，极高，极宽。
Now I'm going to follow this and see where it goes.
现在我要跟踪它，看看它会走向何方。
It goes a long way.
它有很长的路要走。
It's going to the right now.
现在正往右边走。
It's a huge place.
这是一个很大的地方。
Off to the right again.
再次向右走。
I've just nearly fallen over onto the stone structure.
我差点摔倒在石头结构上。
The wall is now on our left, and I'm following it round to the left.
墙现在在我们的左边，我沿着它绕到左边。
It's just a great big, huge, stone wall.
这只是一堵巨大的石墙。
And a big metal [KNOCKING ON METAL] object.
还有一个大金属[敲击金属]物体。
A cube-shaped object.
立方体形状的物体。
Going way up, higher than me.
往上走，比我还高。
I haven't the faintest idea what this could be.
我一点也不知道这可能是什么。
Following the wall again on our left.
再次沿着我们左边的墙走。
There's a bit sticking out there.
那里有一点突出。
That could be a door.
那可能是一扇门。
[UNINTELLIGIBLE] No, it won't open.
[无法理解] 不，它打不开。
Hm, that's interesting.
嗯，这很有趣。
This is a clock.
这是一个时钟。
But I can't see where you'd wind it.
但我看不出你要把它绕到哪里。
Following the wall around again to the left.
沿着墙再次向左走。
We're on a path now.
我们现在正走在一条路上。
It goes in a little bit.
它进去一点点。
We've reached a big-- ooh.
我们已经达到了一个大目标——哦。
There's an echo.
有回声。
Hello!
你好！
We've reached a big wooden door.
我们来到了一扇大木门前。
And the right of it is a handle.
它的右侧是一个手柄。
Just above the handle is a sort of a catch that you push down.
手柄上方有一个卡扣，可以将其按下。
A bit like on an outside door.
有点像在外面的门上。
Wall's coming around to the right again.
沃尔又向右转了。
All right.
好的。
Another one of those metal cubular objects.
另一种金属立方体物体。
And I found a window.
我发现了一扇窗户。
I think that this could possibly be a church.
我认为这可能是一座教堂。
The reason I say that is, sometimes church windows are like square shapes and diamond shapes.
我这么说的原因是，有时教堂的窗户像方形和菱形。
I think this possibly might be stained glass, which means we are by a church.
我想这可能是彩色玻璃，这意味着我们在教堂旁边。
We're walking up onto the grass.
我们正走上草地。
And now a stone table on a big platform.
现在大平台上有一张石桌。
[KNOCKING] And there's some more lettering here.
[敲门声]这里还有一些文字。
And I'm trying to work, and find if it makes any sense to me.
我正在努力工作，看看它对我是否有意义。
That looks like an S or a two.
看起来像一个 S 或两个。
I'm not sure about this.
我对此不太确定。
It's a bit worn away.
有点破旧了。
This is another stone structure.
这是另一个石头结构。
But I haven't really worked out what they're supposed to be yet.
但我还没有真正弄清楚它们应该是什么。
Oh my.
天哪。
The only other thing I can think of is gravestones.
我唯一能想到的就是墓碑。
Sally Goode, at the churchyard at Radbourne, Derbyshire.
莎莉·古德（Sally Goode）在德比郡拉德伯恩的教堂墓地。
That story was produced by Tony Hill with thanks to Sally Goode and the Derbyshire Association for the Blind.
该故事由托尼·希尔 (Tony Hill) 制作，并感谢莎莉·古德 (Sally Goode) 和德比郡盲人协会。
Story is called A Sense of Place.
故事叫做地方感。
Part of the Audible Picture Show, which is a collection of stories that they call a dark cinema.
有声电影秀的一部分，这是一个故事集，他们称之为黑暗电影院。
It is at www.audiblepictureshow.org.uk.
网址为 www.audiblepictureshow.org.uk。
Thanks to the Third Coast International Audio Festival, where we heard about this.
感谢第三海岸国际音频节，我们在那里听到了这个消息。
Thanks also today to Jon Alpert at Downtown Community Television, Michael DiBenedetto at Next Next Entertainment.
今天还要感谢 Downtown Community Television 的 Jon Alpert 和 Next Next Entertainment 的 Michael DiBenedetto。
Waleed Rabi'a, David Novak, [?
瓦利德·拉比亚，大卫·诺瓦克，[？
Debbie Rothbert, ?] [?
黛比·罗斯伯特，？] [？
Michael Esse, ?] and [?
迈克尔·埃塞，？] 和 [？
Paul Bolester.
保罗·博莱斯特.
?]
？]
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight for our show, by our boss Mr. Torey Malatia, who just never can decide.
[资金来源] 我们的老板 Torey Malatia 先生对我们的节目进行 WBEZ 管理监督，但他永远无法做出决定。
Maxi, mini, super , with wings, without wings.
大型、迷你、超级、带翼、不带翼。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。