331: Habeas Schmabeas (2007) - This American Life

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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #331 | April 27, 2007 331: Habeas Schmabeas (2007) Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 331 集 | 2007 年 4 月 27 日 331：Habeas Schmabeas (2007) 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。

If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.

如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。

Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。

Prologue Ira Glass So, here's how a lawyer meets with his client when his client is a prisoner at Guantanamo.

序言 Ira Glass 那么，以下是一名律师在其委托人被关塔那摩监狱时与他的委托人会面的情况。

There's a little hut with a metal table.

有一间小小屋，里面有一张金属桌子。

He's brought out of the box and shackled to an eye bolt in the floor with his back to the door.

他被从箱子里拿出来，背对着门，铐在地板上的一个吊环螺栓上。

He's forbidden to face the natural light.

他被禁止面对自然光。

Joe Margulies of the University of Chicago represents a few detainees at Guantanamo, and he says that to understand that thing about the natural light, you have to understand that the detention facilities at Guantanamo were designed to be the perfect interrogation chambers.

芝加哥大学的乔·马古利斯代表关塔那摩的一些被拘留者，他说，要了解自然光的问题，你必须了解关塔那摩的拘留设施被设计成完美的审讯室。

And so anything the prisoner wants, including sunlight, he's only going to get with the permission of his interrogators as a reward for cooperating.

因此，囚犯想要的任何东西，包括阳光，他都只能在审讯者的许可下得到，作为合作的奖励。

And anything can be used that way.

任何东西都可以这样使用。

Mail.

邮件。

Another lawyer discovered when he first got there that his client, a middle-aged gentlemen with five children.

另一位律师刚到那里就发现他的当事人是一位带着五个孩子的中年绅士。

He's a London businessman who was picked up in the Gambia, and he wasn't getting any mail from his family, and he couldn't understand it because he felt abandoned and alone from his five children.

他是一位伦敦商人，在冈比亚被接走，他没有收到家人的任何邮件，他无法理解这一点，因为他感到被遗弃，与五个孩子在一起感到孤独。

And the lawyer had the presence of mind to make inquiries to see what was the matter and discovered that 16 letters were in the military's possession that they had refused to deliver.

律师冷静地询问到底是怎么回事，发现军方拥有16封信件，但他们拒绝递送。

And when they did finally deliver them, someone had actually taken the time to redact out the words from the children, we miss you daddy, we love you daddy, we're thinking of you.

当他们最终交付它们时，实际上有人花时间编辑了孩子们的话，我们想念你，爸爸，我们爱你，爸爸，我们想你。

That is apparently not right because it disrupts the sense of isolation and despair that they are trying to cultivate.

这显然是不对的，因为它破坏了他们试图培养的孤立感和绝望感。

If prisoners feel despair, they'll cooperate, they'll talk.

如果囚犯感到绝望，他们会合作，他们会说话。

They'll tell us all the dangerous things they know.

他们会告诉我们他们所知道的所有危险的事情。

That's the idea.

就是这个想法。

Let's make them feel hopeless.

让我们让他们感到绝望。

Ever since President Bush announced the global war on terror, we've been told this is a different kind of war with different rules.

自从布什总统宣布全球反恐战争以来，我们就被告知这是一场具有不同规则的不同类型的战争。

The battlefield isn't a jungle in Asia or a beach in France, it's everywhere.

战场不是亚洲的丛林，也不是法国的海滩，而是无处不在。

Soldiers aren't guys in uniform, they could be anybody.

士兵不是穿制服的人，他们可以是任何人。

And prisoners of war are different too.

战俘也不同。

So dangerous, we're told, that we keep them in an offshore facility and as close to total secrecy as possible.

我们被告知，如此危险，我们将它们保存在海上设施中，并尽可能完全保密。

To interrogate whenever we want, however long we want, using methods we have never approved for other wars.

无论何时，无论我们想要多久，都可以使用我们从未批准用于其他战争的方法进行审讯。

And one thing that's just weird about Guantanamo is that in all of these years that it's been going, why haven't we seen more of these guys on radio and TV?

关塔那摩的一件奇怪的事情是，这么多年了，为什么我们没有在广播和电视上看到更多这样的人呢？

Roughly 400 of them have been released.

其中大约 400 人已被释放。

About a year ago on our radio show we were talking about this and we realized that none of us had ever read or heard any interview with any of them.

大约一年前，我们在广播节目中讨论了这个问题，然后我们意识到我们中没有人读过或听过对他们中的任何人的任何采访。

And so we decided that we were going to try to get some of these guys onto the air.

所以我们决定尝试让其中一些人上台。

And the show that we put together and put on the air a year ago with those interviews just won a big award, the Peabody Award.

我们一年前通过这些采访制作并播出的节目刚刚获得了一项大奖：皮博迪奖。

And so because of that, we bring you that show again today.

因此，我们今天再次为您带来该节目。

Updated here and there where the facts have changed a little bit.

在这里和那里进行了更新，事实发生了一些变化。

And so today you're going to hear from two of these Guantanamo detainees who have been released.

今天您将听到两名被释放的关塔那摩被拘留者的声音。

And I believe you're going to be very surprised at what they're like.

我相信你会对他们的样子感到非常惊讶。

We're also going to try to explain, once and for all, what all of these kind of technical sounding things about hearings and raids and new rules of war that we all hear in the news from time to time, what it all adds up to.

我们还将尝试一劳永逸地解释一下我们不时在新闻中听到的有关听证会、突袭和新战争规则的所有这些听起来技术性的事情，以及它们加起来意味着什么。

It's This American Life from Chicago Public Radio, distributed by Public Radio International, I'm Ira Glass.

这是芝加哥公共广播电台的《美国生活》，由国际公共广播电台发行，我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Our guide for all of this is Jack Hitt.

我们的向导是杰克·希特（Jack Hitt）。

Here he is.

他在这里。

As best as they can tell, Badr Zaman Badr and his brother were imprisoned in Guantanamo for three years for telling a joke.

据他们所知，巴德尔·扎曼·巴德尔和他的兄弟因讲笑话而在关塔那摩被监禁了三年。

Actually, for telling two jokes.

其实是为了讲两个笑话。

They ran a satire magazine in Pakistan that poked fun at corrupt clerics, sort of the Pashto edition of The Onion.

他们在巴基斯坦经营一本讽刺杂志，嘲笑腐败的神职人员，有点像普什图语版的《洋葱报》。

The first joke that got them into trouble was when they published a poem about a politician called, "I am Glad to be a Leader." Here's Badr.

第一个让他们陷入麻烦的笑话是他们发表了一首关于一位政客的诗，名为“我很高兴成为一名领袖”。这是巴德尔。

Sure.

当然。

Badr Zaman Badr Before I was so thin and weak and now I have big stomach.

Badr Zaman Badr 以前我很瘦弱，现在我的胃很大。

Stuff like that, yeah.

诸如此类的事情，是的。

So the guy with the big stomach called about Badr and his brother.

于是，大胃王就打电话来询问巴德尔和他的兄弟。

He threatened them.

他威胁他们。

And as best as they can tell, told authorities that they were linked to al-Qaeda, which landed them in Guantanamo, and which leads us to the second joke.

据他们所知，他们告诉当局他们与基地组织有联系，基地组织将他们带到了关塔那摩，这让我们想到了第二个笑话。

This one was in an issue of Badr's magazine that came out in the '90s, after our government set a $5 million reward for Osama bin Laden.

这是上世纪 90 年代巴德尔杂志中的一期，当时我们的政府悬赏 500 万美元缉拿奥萨马·本·拉登。

Badr's magazine issued its own bounty for the capture of an American leader.

巴德尔的杂志也悬赏捉拿一位美国领导人。

President Bill Clinton.

比尔·克林顿总统。

Giving the details how to identify that he has blue eyes and he's clean-shaven.

详细说明了如何识别他有蓝眼睛并且胡子刮得干干净净。

And the most important thing is that there is some scandal going on between Clinton and Monica Lewinsky.

最重要的是，克林顿和莫妮卡·莱温斯基之间发生了一些丑闻。

If someone finds that man, he will be rewarded $5 million of money.

如果有人找到那个人，他将获得500万美元的奖励。

Of [UNINTELLIGIBLE] currency, which was equal to $113 at that time.

[无法辨认]货币，当时相当于 113 美元。

So it's impossible to [UNINTELLIGIBLE].

所以这是不可能的[难以理解]。

In Guantanamo, were you interrogated about your Clinton satire?

在关塔那摩，你是否因讽刺克林顿而被审问？

Exactly.

确切地。

They would see if we really to want to kill President Clinton.

他们会看看我们是否真的想杀死克林顿总统。

And we said, no, that was only a satire and it's only a way of expression.

我们说，不，那只是讽刺，只是一种表达方式。

It's allowed.

这是允许的。

It's protected in your country, in American law.

它在您的国家/地区受到美国法律的保护。

How many times were you interrogated you think about the Clinton article?

你被问及多少次你对克林顿文章的看法？

Many times.

很多次。

Many times.

很多次。

Me and my brother, each one of us have been interrogated more than 150 times.

我和我的兄弟，我们每个人都被审问了150多次。

So after hearing the punchline explained a 150 times, we finally get the joke, and sent Badr and his brother home.

因此，在听完这个笑话解释了 150 遍之后，我们终于明白了这个笑话，并送巴德尔和他的兄弟回家了。

It had been three years since the Pakistani army surrounded their house in Peshawar, came into their living room, which is lined with wall to wall bookcases and arrested them.

三年前，巴基斯坦军队包围了他们在白沙瓦的家，闯入他们摆满书柜的客厅并逮捕了他们。

That's Badr's version of why we jailed him.

这就是巴德尔关于我们监禁他的原因的说法。

Here's President Bush's.

这里是布什总统的。

These are people that got scooped up off a battlefield attempting to kill US troops.

这些人是在战场上试图杀死美军时被救出来的。

I want to make sure before they're released that they don't come back to kill again.

我想在他们被释放之前确保他们不会再回来杀人。

The administration has never wavered on this point.

在这一点上，政府从未动摇过。

Here's Dick Cheney on Guantanamo.

这是迪克·切尼在关塔那摩的报道。

The people that are there are people we picked up on the battlefield, primarily in Afghanistan.

那里的人是我们在战场上找到的人，主要是在阿富汗。

They're terrorists.

他们是恐怖分子。

They're bomb makers.

他们是炸弹制造者。

They're facilitators of terror.

他们是恐怖活动的推动者。

They're members of al-Qaeda and the Taliban.

他们是基地组织和塔利班的成员。

We're told over and over that these prisoners are so terrible that we need an offshore facility away from US law to hold them.

我们一遍又一遍地被告知，这些囚犯是如此可怕，我们需要一个远离美国法律的离岸设施来关押他们。

But then there's Badr.

但还有巴德尔。

And every day, more stories like his are coming out.

每天都有更多像他这样的故事出现。

And they raise the question, is Guantanamo a camp full of terrorists, or a camp full of mistakes?

他们提出了这样的问题：关塔那摩是一个充满恐怖分子的营地，还是一个充满错误的营地？

In a new study from Seton Hall's law school, researcher simply went to the trouble of reading the 517 Guantanamo case files released by the Pentagon.

在西顿霍尔法学院的一项新研究中，研究人员不厌其烦地阅读了五角大楼公布的 517 关塔那摩案件档案。

Here's what they found.

这是他们的发现。

Only 5% of our detainees in Guantanamo were scooped up by American troops on the battlefield, or anywhere else.

关塔那摩监狱中只有 5% 的被拘留者是在战场或其他地方被美军抓走的。

5%.

5%。

The rest, we never saw them fighting.

其余的，我们从未见过他们打架。

And here's something else.

还有其他的事情。

Only 8% of the detainees in Guantanamo are classified by the Pentagon as al-Qaeda fighters.

关塔那摩监狱中只有 8% 的被拘留者被五角大楼归类为基地组织战士。

In fact, Michael Dunleavy, head of interrogations at Guantanamo, complained in 2002 that he was receiving too many quote, "Mickey Mouse prisoners."

事实上，关塔那摩监狱审讯负责人迈克尔·邓利维 (Michael Dunleavy) 在 2002 年抱怨说，他收到了太多“米老鼠囚犯”的话。

In 2004, the New York Times did a huge investigation, interviewing dozens of high-level military intelligence and law enforcement officials in the US, Europe, and the Middle East.

2004年，《纽约时报》进行了一项大规模调查，采访了美国、欧洲和中东的数十名高级军事情报和执法官员。

There was a surprising consensus.

大家达成了令人惊讶的共识。

That out of nearly 600 men at Guantanamo, the number who could give us useful information about al-Qaeda, was quote, "only a relative handful." Some put the number at about a dozen, others more than two dozen.

关塔那摩监狱的近 600 名人员中，能够向我们提供有关基地组织的有用信息的人数，据说“只有少数”。有些人说这个数字大约是十几个，有些人说是两打以上。

The Seton Hall study might help explain that.

西顿霍尔的研究可能有助于解释这一点。

It revealed that 86% of the detainees were handed over to us by Pakistan or the Northern Alliance.

据透露，86%的被拘留者是巴基斯坦或北方联盟移交给我们的。

And some were handed over to us by a new method.

还有一些是通过新的方式交给我们的。

Here's Badr.

这是巴德尔。

Actually, in our interrogation, the American interrogators have been telling us that they have paid a lot of money to those who handed over us to American.

事实上，在我们的审讯中，美国审讯者一直告诉我们，他们向那些把我们交给美国人的人支付了很多钱。

The problem was, we were offering bounties.

问题是，我们提供赏金。

You know, $5,000 or $10,000.

你知道，5,000 美元或 10,000 美元。

Al-Qaeda brought more than Taliban did and, so OK, fine, here's your money.

基地组织带来的比塔利班带来的更多，所以好吧，好吧，这是你的钱。

Take them to Gitmo.

带他们去关塔那摩监狱。

That's where Admiral John Hutson, the Navy's top lawyer.

那是海军高级律师约翰·赫特森上将的所在地。

He was the judge advocate general until 2000.

2000 年之前，他一直担任总检察长。

He says, essentially, we bought Badr and a whole lot of other prisoners.

他说，本质上，我们买了巴德尔和很多其他囚犯。

When you look at the economy at that part of the world, that really is kind of a king's ransom.

当你看看世界那个地区的经济时，你会发现这确实是一笔巨大的赎金。

When the Pentagon started offering these rewards, large fees for top leaders, like Bin laden, and smaller payouts for lower level terrorists and Taliban, it seemed like a good idea.

当五角大楼开始提供这些奖励时，向本·拉登等高层领导人提供高额费用，而向较低级别的恐怖分子和塔利班支付较小的费用，这似乎是一个好主意。

They didn't think it would lead to innocent people being turned in.

他们认为这不会导致无辜者被移交。

Here's defense secretary Donald Rumsfeld in 2001, just two months after September 11.

这是 2001 年的国防部长唐纳德·拉姆斯菲尔德 (Donald Rumsfeld)，即 9 月 11 日之后两个月。

We have large rewards out.

我们有丰厚的奖励。

And our hope is that the incentive through the great principle of University of Chicago economics incentivize a large number of people to begin crawling through those tunnels and caves looking for the bad folks.

我们希望通过芝加哥大学经济学的伟大原理来激励大量的人开始爬过这些隧道和洞穴寻找坏人。

We all know this is a new war with new rules, but what were the old rules?

我们都知道这是一场新的战争，有新的规则，但旧的规则是什么？

Well, one had to do with POWs.

嗯，其中之一与战俘有关。

The military has always known that all kinds of prisoners get picked up in the fog of war, so it was important to get those numbers down to just the real POWs since troops on the move didn't want to be burdened with looking after lots and lots of captives.

军方一直都知道，各种各样的囚犯都会在战争迷雾中被抓走，因此将这些数字精确到真正的战俘非常重要，因为移动中的部队不想承担照顾大量俘虏的负担。

This problem had been more or less solved by the old Geneva Conventions, which required a quote, "competent tribunal." It sounds crazy, a kind of impromptu court hearing, right after a battle.

旧的《日内瓦公约》或多或少已经解决了这个问题，其中需要引用“主管法庭”一词。这听起来很疯狂，就像一场战斗结束后的临时法庭听证会。

But that is exactly what used to happen.

但这正是过去发生的事情。

And typically, some 75% to 90% of the people scooped up would be sent home.

通常情况下，大约 75% 到 90% 的被救人会被送回家。

In the Gulf War of 1991, we captured 982 people, released 750 of them right away, and the remainder were POWs.

1991年海湾战争，我们俘虏了982人，立即释放了750人，其余都是战俘。

Like in the old war movies, they give name, rank, and serial number, and they got certain things.

就像在老战争电影中一样，他们给出姓名、军衔和序列号，然后他们就得到了某些东西。

Everything from a pledge that they wouldn't be tortured, to a promise that they would be released once the war ended, and even the right to send letters home.

从承诺他们不会受到酷刑，到承诺战争结束后他们将被释放，甚至还有寄信回家的权利。

Here's rear admiral Hutson, the navy's top lawyer.

这是海军高级律师、海军少将赫特森的报道。

And those were some of the things that now Attorney General Gonzales referred to as being quaint and outdated.

这些是现在司法部长冈萨雷斯所说的一些古怪和过时的事情。

You get athletic uniforms.

你会得到运动服。

You get a certain amount of money paid in Swiss francs, I believe.

我相信你会收到一定数额的瑞士法郎钱。

And those things probably are--

这些事情可能是——

You get paid as a POW?

你作为战俘得到报酬吗？

John Hutson Yeah, it's a very small amount of money, but to go to the commissary and buy chewing gum and cigarettes kind of thing.

约翰·哈特森：是的，这是一笔很小的钱，但可以去小卖部买口香糖和香烟之类的东西。

And those things probably are largely outdated.

这些东西可能基本上已经过时了。

And they are in some respects, quaint.

从某些方面来说，它们很古怪。

What happened though, is by saying that the Geneva Conventions in those respects were quaint and outdated, they just threw the baby out with the bath water.

然而，发生的事情是，日内瓦公约在这些方面是古怪和过时的，他们只是把婴儿和洗澡水一起倒掉了。

This is a new kind of war after all, and the administration made the argument that the Geneva Conventions apply only when you're fighting another country, a country with a uniformed army, not when you're fighting terrorists.

毕竟这是一种新型战争，政府提出的论点是，《日内瓦公约》仅适用于与另一个国家、一个拥有军装军队的国家作战时，而不是在与恐怖分子作战时。

They do not apply where the individuals captured haven't deserved, haven't shown that they deserve those protections.

它们不适用于被捕获的个人不应该得到的保护，也没有表明他们应该得到这些保护。

That's Brian Boyle.

那是布莱恩·博伊尔。

He was associate attorney general for President Bush when these decisions were made.

当这些决定做出时，他是布什总统的副总检察长。

They did not legally qualify as prisoners of war because they are not fighting in uniform.

他们在法律上没有资格成为战俘，因为他们不穿制服作战。

Because they try to blend in with the civilian population.

因为他们试图融入平民。

Because they try to take cover in civilian areas.

因为他们试图躲进平民区。

Hasn't that been a problem for war for most of the 20th century, or at least, in the last couple of conflicts we've been in?

在20世纪的大部分时间里，或者至少在我们经历的最近几次冲突中，这难道不是一个战争问题吗？

I mean, is rooting out al-Qaeda any harder, or how is it harder than rooting out Viet Cong in a local village?

我的意思是，根除基地组织是否更难，或者比根除当地村庄的越共更难？

And I take the point.

我同意这一点。

I guess the point I was making earlier is that I don't think you can conclude given the nature of the enemy we're facing that how we treat al-Qaeda operatives that we're able to capture is going to make any difference at all in how they would treat American personnel in their custody.

我想我之前提出的观点是，考虑到我们面临的敌人的性质，我认为你不能得出这样的结论：我们如何对待我们能够抓获的基地组织特工，将会对他们如何对待被拘留的美国人员产生任何影响。

It wouldn't make a difference at all.

这根本不会有什么不同。

That argument can really take you to some dark places, I think.

我认为这种争论确实会把你带到一些黑暗的地方。

Here's rear admiral Hutson.

这是赫特森海军少将的报道。

John Hutson If we pick and choose, then other countries can pick and choose whether they're going to apply the Geneva Conventions.

约翰·赫特森：如果我们进行选择，那么其他国家也可以选择是否适用《日内瓦公约》。

That is a slippery slope that Secretary Powell and others did not want us to go down.

这是鲍威尔国务卿和其他人不希望我们走下去的滑坡。

Because they're looking over the horizon.

因为他们的目光越过地平线。

They know that this isn't the last war we're going to fight.

他们知道这不是我们要打的最后一场战争。

It's not even the next the last war we're going to fight.

这甚至不是我们要打的下一场战争。

This quarrel about the Geneva Conventions continued for three years and eventually, got down to one, very practical question.

这场关于《日内瓦公约》的争论持续了三年，最终归结为一个非常实际的问题。

If you're a prisoner and you're not protected by the Geneva Conventions, and you might be held indefinitely, could you at least make an appeal in a US court?

如果你是一名囚犯，并且不受《日内瓦公约》的保护，并且你可能会被无限期关押，你至少可以向美国法院提出上诉吗？

Here's attorney general Alberto Gonzales.

这是司法部长阿尔贝托·冈萨雷斯。

We really are, for all intents and purposes, at war.

无论出于何种意图和目的，我们确实处于战争之中。

And so you need not provide access to counsel.

因此，您无需提供咨询服务。

You need not provide the ability to challenge their detention in a criminal court.

您无需提供在刑事法庭质疑他们被拘留的能力。

It would be like saying that Germans that were captured during World War II would have to provided lawyers.

这就像说二战期间被俘的德国人必须提供律师一样。

The truth of the matter is, the rules and procedures of our criminal justice system simply do not apply in this case.

事实是，我们刑事司法系统的规则和程序根本不适用于本案。

And he's absolutely right, about the Germans.

关于德国人，他是绝对正确的。

Except the Germans were covered by the Geneva Conventions.

除了德国人受到《日内瓦公约》的保护。

Finally, in 2004, the United States Supreme Court stepped in.

最终，2004年，美国最高法院介入。

It said, if prisoners aren't going to be covered by the Geneva Conventions, that's fine.

它说，如果囚犯不受《日内瓦公约》的保护，那也没关系。

But they couldn't be permitted to fall into a legal black hole, not protected by any law at all.

但不能让他们陷入法律黑洞，不受任何法律保护。

They had to be given some way to challenge their detainment.

必须给予他们某种方式来质疑他们的拘留。

It's one of the oldest rights in Western civilization, known as habeas corpus.

这是西方文明中最古老的权利之一，被称为人身保护令。

Habeas corpus, it's a phrase we all know, but let's be honest, can't ever really remember what it means.

人身保护令，这是我们都知道的一个短语，但说实话，我们永远无法真正记住它的含义。

It's not a trial or anything like one.

这不是一场审判或类似的事情。

It's more, well, primal.

它更，嗯，原始。

It's a hearing that commands the executive-- in this case, the president-- to explain why he has jailed somebody.

这是一次命令行政部门（在本例中为总统）的听证会，解释他为何监禁某人。

The idea dates back to 1215 England when the nobles forced King John to sign the Magna Carta and agree to the great writ, later known as habeas corpus.

这个想法可以追溯到 1215 年的英国，当时贵族迫使约翰国王签署《大宪章》并同意这份伟大的令状，即后来的人身保护令。

In Latin, it means, "show me the body." In other words, a neutral judge got to see the prisoner in person to check if he'd been tortured, and then the judge had the power to require the king to explain, why is this guy jailed?

在拉丁语中，它的意思是“给我看看身体”。换句话说，一个中立的法官亲自会见囚犯，检查他是否受到酷刑，然后法官有权要求国王解释，为什么这个人要入狱？

All the executive had to do was answer with a convincing story, and then the guy went back to the dungeon.

主管所要做的就是用一个令人信服的故事来回答，然后那个人就回到了地牢。

It's a right so elemental that it's in Article 1 of the United States Constitution.

这项权利是如此基本，以至于被写入美国宪法第一条。

It's one of the reasons we fought the Revolutionary War.

这是我们进行革命战争的原因之一。

And after the Supreme Court granted the detainees access to the courts, right away President Bush started talking like a habeas loving King John.

在最高法院允许被拘留者出庭后，布什总统立即开始像热爱人身保护令的约翰国王一样说话。

Yeah, look, we are a nation of laws and to the extent that people say, well, America is no longer a nation of laws, that does hurt our reputation.

是的，你看，我们是一个法治国家，人们说，美国不再是一个法治国家，这确实损害了我们的声誉。

But I think it's an unfair criticism.

但我认为这是不公平的批评。

As you might remember, our courts have made a ruling.

您可能还记得，我们的法院已经做出了裁决。

They looked at the jurisdiction, the right of people in Guantanamo to have habeas review, and so we're now complying with the court's decisions.

他们研究了管辖权以及关塔那摩人民接受人身保护令审查的权利，因此我们现在正在遵守法院的裁决。

The administration quickly put together a kind of hearing based in part on the old Geneva Conventions hearing they'd abandoned.

政府迅速组织了一场听证会，部分基于他们放弃的旧日内瓦公约听证会。

They called this hearing, a combatant status review tribunal, or in the elegant shorthand of the Pentagon, a CSRT.

他们将这次听证会称为“战斗人员身份审查法庭”，或者用五角大楼的优雅速记法，称为“CSRT”。

These new hearings have one oddity to them.

这些新的听证会有一个奇怪之处。

The tribunal assumes all the evidence against the detainee is correct.

法庭假定所有针对被拘留者的证据都是正确的。

If the detainee wants to prove them wrong, it will be difficult because he's not allowed to see the evidence.

如果被拘留者想证明他们错了，那会很困难，因为他不被允许看到证据。

It's classified.

这是机密。

As a result, these hearings makes strange reading.

结果，这些听证会读起来很奇怪。

In many of them, there comes a moment in the dialogue like this one between detainee Abdulmalik and the judging panel.

在许多案件中，被拘留者阿卜杜勒马利克和评审团之间的对话中都会出现这样的时刻。

Malik--

马利克——

Regarding the charge that I worked at various guest houses and offices, what was the work?

至于我在各宾馆和办公室工作的费用，工作内容是什么？

The Supreme Court had said that the detainees didn't deserve a full criminal trial, of course.

当然，最高法院曾表示，被拘留者不应该受到全面的刑事审判。

Only the basics of a fair hearing, which came down to three things.

只有公平听证会的基本要素，可归结为三件事。

A lawyer, an impartial judge, and the chance to see the evidence against them.

一名律师、一名公正的法官，以及查看对他们不利的证据的机会。

In practice though, they get none of these.

但实际上，他们却一无所获。

Baher Azmy is a lawyer who represents one of the detainees, but he couldn't attend his client's CSRT because actual lawyers aren't allowed.

巴赫尔·阿兹米 (Baher Azmy) 是其中一名被拘留者的代理律师，但他无法参加其委托人的 CSRT，因为不允许真正的律师参加。

They were each appointed a personal representative who's a military officer.

他们每人都被任命为一名军官个人代表。

Who, in my case, met with my client the day before for 15 minutes, sat silent, and failed to present all of the exculpatory evidence in his file.

就我而言，他前一天与我的委托人会面了 15 分钟，沉默地坐着，并且未能提供其档案中的所有无罪证据。

Which of course, any lawyer would have done.

当然，任何律师都会这么做。

Not the personal representative.

不是个人代表。

And as for confronting the evidence, consider the case of Azmy's client, Murat Kurnaz, a Turkish citizen raised in Germany.

至于面对证据，请考虑阿兹米的客户穆拉特·库尔纳兹（Murat Kurnaz）的案例，他是一位在德国长大的土耳其公民。

The Pentagon accidentally declassified the file with all of the secret evidence against him.

五角大楼意外地解密了该文件，其中包含所有对他不利的秘密证据。

And here's what's in it: nothing.

这就是里面的内容：什么也没有。

The classified files contains-- the Washington Post wrote about it-- six statements from military intelligence.

《华盛顿邮报》报道称，这些机密文件包含来自军事情报部门的六份声明。

That's really what the classified file is, memos saying this person was here, so and so witnessed him.

这确实是机密文件的内容，备忘录说这个人在这里，某某目击了他。

In Kurnaz's case, there are five or six statements saying, there's no evidence of any connection to al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or threat to the United States.

在库尔纳兹的案件中，有五六份声明称，没有证据表明与基地组织、塔利班或对美国的威胁有任何联系。

The Germans have concluded he's got no connection to al-Qaeda.

德国人断定他与基地组织没有联系。

There's no evidence linking him to the Taliban, over and over and over again.

没有证据一次又一次地将他与塔利班联系起来。

But here's the thing, at the hearing, nobody talks about any of that.

但事情是这样的，在听证会上，没有人谈论这些。

His personal representative doesn't bring it up.

他的私人代表没有提及此事。

The tribunal doesn't consider it and Kurnaz, himself, doesn't even know about it.

法庭不考虑这一点，库尔纳兹本人甚至不知道这一点。

He's declared an enemy combatant and sent back to his cell.

他被宣布为敌方战斗人员并被送回牢房。

But wait, there's more.

但等等，还有更多。

The reason they give for holding him, a friend of his named [?

他们给出的拘留他的理由是他的一个朋友，名叫[？

Selcuk Bilgin ?] blew himself up as a suicide bomber in Turkey in 2003.

Selcuk Bilgin ？] 2003 年在土耳其作为自杀式炸弹袭击者引爆了自己。

That's two years after Kurnaz got picked up.

那是库尔纳兹被选中两年后。

So setting aside the sort of remarkable legal proposition that one could be detained indefinitely for what one's friend does, it's factually preposterous.

因此，抛开这种引人注目的法律主张，即一个人可能会因为朋友的所作所为而被无限期拘留，这实际上是荒谬的。

And a sort of simple Google search or a call to the Germans would have revealed that his friend is alive and well in [UNINTELLIGIBLE] and under no suspicion of any such thing.

简单的谷歌搜索或给德国人打电话就会发现他的朋友在[无法辨认]中还活着并且安然无恙，并且没有任何此类事情的嫌疑。

You heard that right.

你没听错。

Kurnaz was held in Guantanamo because two years after he got picked up, some guy he knows became a suicide bomber.

库纳兹被关押在关塔那摩，因为在他被抓获两年后，他认识的一个人成为了自杀式炸弹袭击者。

Except that he didn't become a suicide bomber and is currently living in Germany.

但他没有成为自杀式炸弹袭击者，目前居住在德国。

Yeah, he's walking around in Germany.

是的，他正在德国闲逛。

I've met him.

我见过他。

Then there's a bunch of Chinese Muslims who we accidentally picked up during our sweep in Afghanistan.

还有一群我们在阿富汗扫荡时无意中遇到的中国穆斯林。

They're an ethnic minority known as the Uyghurs, and they've been battling the communist Chinese since World War II.

他们是一个被称为维吾尔族的少数民族，自二战以来他们一直在与共产主义中国作斗争。

Conservatives love the Uyghurs, which is why they've been passionately defended by the National Review and the Weekly Standard.

保守派热爱维吾尔人，这就是为什么他们受到《国家评论》和《标准周刊》的热情捍卫。

After a corporate lawyer named Sabin Willett heard about them, he volunteered to represent a Uyghur named Adel Abdul Hakim and some others, and he flew to Guantanamo to meet them.

一位名叫萨宾·威利特(Sabin Willett)的公司律师听说了他们的消息后，自愿代表维吾尔族阿德尔·阿卜杜勒·哈基姆(Adel Abdul Hakim)等人，并飞往关塔那摩与他们会面。

The main thing they wanted to talk about it and that was so puzzling to them was that the previous May, the military had told them that they were in their words, "innocent." And why were they still here if they were innocent?

他们想谈论的主要事情是，让他们感到困惑的是，去年五月，军方告诉他们，用他们的话说，他们是“无辜的”。如果他们是无辜的，为什么还在这里？

What you're saying is, is that Adel and the other Uyghurs are, in your opinion, have never been members of any kind of al-Qaeda or Jihad, or anything like that?

你的意思是，在你看来，阿德尔和其他维吾尔人从未加入过任何形式的基地组织或圣战组织或类似组织？

Yeah, it's not just my opinion.

是的，这不仅仅是我的意见。

The Defense Department has determined that.

国防部已经确定了这一点。

That means they were never al-Qaeda, never Taliban, never any of that.

这意味着他们从来都不是基地组织，从来不是塔利班，从来都不是。

When I interviewed Willett, back when this story was first broadcast a year ago, the government said they'd release Adel and the other Uyghurs if only it could find another country to send them to.

当我采访威利特时，当这个故事一年前首次播出时，政府表示，如果能找到另一个国家将他们送到另一个国家，他们就会释放阿德尔和其他维吾尔人。

At the time, there seemed like an obvious solution.

当时，似乎有一个显而易见的解决方案。

Adel could go 90 miles north to Miami, where there's an entire city of anti-communists.

阿德尔可以向北行驶 90 英里到达迈阿密，那里有一整座反共分子城市。

Or, he could be sent to one of the largest Uyghur ex-pat communities, Washington DC.

或者，他可以被送到最大的维吾尔侨民社区之一——华盛顿特区。

So why didn't that happen?

那为什么没有发生呢？

Here's Willett.

这是威利特。

I'll tell you what I think the answer is, although no one from the government would admit this.

我会告诉你我认为的答案是什么，尽管政府没有人承认这一点。

I think the answer is that if anybody actually met these guys, actually looked at them, and took their pictures, and had them on TV shows or the radio, they'd be shocked.

我认为答案是，如果有人真正见过这些人，真正看着他们，拍下他们的照片，让他们出现在电视节目或广播中，他们会感到震惊。

Because they've been told for four years that the people at Guantanamo are terrorists and that they're the worst of the worst.

因为四年来他们一直被告知关塔那摩的人们是恐怖分子，而且他们是最坏的人中的最坏的人。

And you take a look at Adel, you're going to suddenly realize you've been lied to for a long time.

当你看看阿德尔，你会突然意识到你已经被欺骗了很长一段时间。

He struck me when I first him, like the kind of kid your college age son would bring home.

当我第一次见到他时，他就给我留下了深刻的印象，就像你上大学的儿子会带回家的那种孩子。

You know, his roommate.

你知道，他的室友。

His buddy from college home for the weekend.

他的朋友从大学回家过周末。

People who meet Adel for the first time, they walk out of the meeting and their jaw is a little bit unsprung, and they don't say much.

第一次见到阿德尔的人，走出会场时，下巴都有点没弹簧，也不多说什么。

Because it's hitting them like a ton of bricks.

因为它就像一吨砖头一样击中他们。

You know, this guy is in Guantanamo?

你知道，这个人在关塔那摩吗？

If Willett's right, this gets to the heart of habeas.

如果威利特是对的，这就是人身保护令的核心。

The whole point is that the king shouldn't have the right to just detain somebody because it'd be an embarrassment to have the guy free.

重点是国王不应该有权拘留某人，因为让这个人自由会很尴尬。

The Pentagon has an acronym for people like the Uyghurs, it's pronounced [?

五角大楼有一个像维吾尔人这样的人的缩写，发音为[?

"en leck." ?] It means, no longer enemy combatant.

“嗯。” ？] 这意味着，不再是敌方战斗人员。

But as Willett notes, it should be never was enemy combatant.

但正如威利特指出的那样，它不应该是敌方战斗人员。

Since I first talked to Willett for our original broadcast, the White House finally found a refugee center in Albania where they sent 5 of the 23 Uyghurs, including Adel.

自从我第一次在我们的原创广播节目中与威利特交谈以来，白宫终于在阿尔巴尼亚找到了一个难民中心，他们将 23 名维吾尔人中的 5 人送到了那里，其中包括阿德尔。

The others are still in Guantanamo and are classified as enemy combatants.

其他人仍在关塔那摩，被列为敌方战斗人员。

The problem with creating an offshore legal limbo, where there's no habeas proceeding to separate the al-Qaeda fighter from the comedy writer, comes during interrogation.

造成离岸法律困境的问题是在审讯过程中出现的，即没有人身保护令将基地组织战士与喜剧作家分开。

If we've labeled them as terrorists, then that's how they get treated.

如果我们将他们标记为恐怖分子，那么他们就会受到这样的待遇。

Josh Colangelo-Bryan is a lawyer at Dorsey & Whitney in New York who volunteered at Guantanamo.

乔什·科兰杰洛-布莱恩 (Josh Colangelo-Bryan) 是纽约德汇律师事务所 (Dorsey & Whitney) 的一名律师，曾在关塔那摩担任志愿者。

He represents Juma al-Dossary.

他代表 Juma al-Dossary。

For a while, the government thought al-Dossary was a recruiter in America for al-Qaeda.

有一段时间，政府认为多萨里是基地组织在美国的招募人员。

Possibly involved in the case known as the Lackawanna Seven.

可能涉及拉克瓦纳七人案。

But this is never brought up at his CSRT hearing.

但他的 CSRT 听证会上从未提及这一点。

Instead, the government simply states that he's al-Qaeda.

相反，政府只是简单地宣称他是基地组织成员。

And as proof, lists the various places he's been.

作为证据，列出了他去过的各个地方。

Afghanistan, Bosnia, Azerbaijan, the Pakistan border.

阿富汗、波斯尼亚、阿塞拜疆、巴基斯坦边境。

Supposedly he was fighting in some of those places, but the government provides no evidence of that.

据说他在其中一些地方进行过战斗，但政府没有提供任何证据。

They don't quote witnesses.

他们不引用证人的话。

Nobody is on record saying he's al-Qaeda.

没有记录表明他是基地组织成员。

Here's Colangelo-Bryan.

这是科兰吉洛-布莱恩的报道。

What's interesting to me when we talk about what he was doing in that part of the world is the allegation that the US military makes against him.

当我们谈论他在世界那个地区所做的事情时，令我感兴趣的是美国军方对他的指控。

That he was quote, "present at Tora Bora," close quote.

他被引用，“出现在托拉博拉”，密切引用。

The military offers no allegations as to when Juma was supposedly in Tora Bora.

军方没有提供任何关于朱马何时出现在托拉博拉岛的指控。

It says nothing about what supposedly he was doing.

它没有说明他应该在做什么。

Simply that at some point in history, he was present in that place.

简单地说，在历史的某个时刻，他出现在那个地方。

Now, Juma says that he's never been to Tora bora.

现在，朱马说他从未去过托拉博拉。

And again, even if that allegation is true, frankly, it doesn't prove anything.

再说一遍，即使该指控属实，坦率地说，也不能证明任何事情。

Absent some evidence of some involvement in terrorist activity, I simply don't know how you can call someone a terrorist.

如果没有一些参与恐怖活动的证据，我根本不知道如何称某人为恐怖分子。

We tried out many of our new interrogation techniques on Juma al-Dossary.

我们在 Juma al-Dossary 上尝试了许多新的审讯技术。

Colangelo-Bryan met with him many times and cataloged what was done with him.

科兰吉洛-布莱恩多次与他会面，并记录了他的经历。

Al-Dossary said that Americans forced him to the ground and urinated on him.

多萨里说，美国人把他按倒在地，并向他撒尿。

We put out our cigarettes on him.

我们给他灭了烟。

We shocked him with an electric device.

我们用电子装置电击了他。

We spat on him.

我们向他吐口水。

We poured a hot cup of tea on his head.

我们把一杯热茶倒在他头上。

We told him that quote, "we brought you here to kill you." We beat him until he vomited blood.

我们告诉他那句话：“我们把你带到这里来杀了你。”我们把他打得吐血。

We threatened to have him raped.

我们威胁要强奸他。

We dressed him in shorts and left him in a frigid, air conditioned room.

我们给他穿上短裤，然后把他留在一个寒冷的空调房间里。

We abandoned him in another room with no water.

我们把他遗弃在另一个没有水的房间里。

We invited him to drink from his toilet bowl, which he did.

我们邀请他从马桶里喝水，他照做了。

We wrapped him in an Israeli flag.

我们用以色列国旗包裹着他。

We told him that we would hold him forever, and we told him that we would send him to Egypt to be tortured.

我们告诉他，我们将永远关押他，我们还告诉他，我们将把他送到埃及受酷刑。

On a different day, we chained him to the floor and cut off his clothes while a female MP entered the room.

另一天，我们将他锁在地板上，并剪掉了他的衣服，一名女议员进入了房间。

We dripped what we said was menstrual blood on his body.

我们把所谓的经血滴到了他的身上。

When he spat at us, we smeared this blood on his face.

当他向我们吐口水时，我们把血涂在他脸上。

We kissed the cross around our neck and said, "this is a gift from Christ for you Muslims." We videotaped the entire episode.

我们亲吻脖子上的十字架说：“这是基督给你们穆斯林的礼物。”我们录制了整个事件。

There's no way to confirm that all this happened to al-Dossary.

无法证实这一切是否发生在多萨里身上。

But other prisoners, and officials at Guantanamo have described variations of every technique on the list, including the menstrual blood, the Israeli flag, the references to Christianity, the beatings, the sexual humiliation.

但其他囚犯和关塔那摩监狱的官员描述了清单上每项技术的变体，包括经血、以色列国旗、提及基督教、殴打、性羞辱。

Al-Dossary's interrogated still, about once a month.

阿尔·多萨里仍在接受审讯，大约每月一次。

During one visit last winter he asked Colangelo-Bryan, what can I do to keep myself from going crazy?

去年冬天的一次访问中，他问科兰吉洛-布莱恩，我能做些什么来防止自己发疯？

A few months later, during a meeting, al-Dossary asked to go to the bathroom.

几个月后，在一次会议上，多萨里要求去洗手间。

Colangelo-Bryan and the MP stepped outside the hut and waited.

科兰杰洛-布莱恩和议员走出小屋等待。

After five minutes, colangelo-Bryan got concerned.

五分钟后，科兰杰洛-布莱恩开始担心起来。

He cracked the door open.

他把门打开。

When I opened the door, the first thing I saw was a pool of blood on the floor in front of me.

当我打开门时，我首先看到的是我面前的地板上有一摊血。

I then looked up and saw a figure hanging.

然后我抬起头，看到一个人影悬挂着。

I yelled to the MPs for help.

我向国会议员呼救。

They then began to cut down the noose around Juma's neck.

然后他们开始割断朱马脖子上的绞索。

It wasn't Al-Dossay's first suicide attempt.

这并不是阿尔多赛第一次尝试自杀。

About three weeks later I was back in Guantanamo, Juma said to me that he didn't want to kill himself without an outside witness.

大约三周后，我回到关塔那摩，朱马对我说，他不想在没有外界目击者的情况下自杀。

His fear was that if he died and only the military knew, nobody would have known what happened.

他担心，如果他死了，只有军方知道，没有人会知道发生了什么。

Of course, as we are often told, this war is different.

当然，正如我们经常被告知的那样，这场战争是不同的。

Who wants to be the one that lets somebody go, who then turns out to be the next 9/11 hijacker.

谁想成为放走某人的人，谁就会成为下一个 9/11 劫机者。

So for the military, there's also this other new thing, a terrifying calculation that there can be no margin of error.

所以对于军队来说，还有另外一个新事物，一个可怕的计算，不能有任何误差。

Joe Margulies of the University of Chicago represents a few detainees, and has been trying to make sense of what's happened at Guantanamo.

芝加哥大学的乔·马古利斯代表一些被拘留者，并一直试图弄清楚关塔那摩发生的事情。

If we give them the benefit of the doubt, it is possible-- and there's a lot of evidence to support this.

如果我们相信他们是无罪的，这是有可能的——并且有很多证据支持这一点。

They had no idea who they were going to be capturing.

他们不知道他们要捕获谁。

And they thought they might get more serious people.

他们认为他们可能会找到更认真的人。

People who were more seriously involved.

那些更认真参与的人。

The reality is those people never came to Guantanamo.

现实是这些人从未来到关塔那摩。

The most serious folks are the ones in CIA custody, of which there are approximately 30.

最严肃的人是中央情报局拘留的人，其中大约有 30 人。

27, 30, something like that.

27、30，类似的事情。

Those are the people in black sites that we don't even know where they are.

这些人在黑色网站上，我们甚至不知道他们在哪里。

The people of any significance never arrived at Guantanamo, but they didn't know that when the base opened.

任何重要人物都从未到达过关塔那摩，但他们不知道基地何时开放。

They said at the time that these were the worst of the worst, they were trained killers, they would gnaw through hydraulic lines to bring down the plane that was flying them to Guantanamo.

他们当时说，这些人是最糟糕的，他们是训练有素的杀手，他们会咬断液压管线，击落将他们飞往关塔那摩的飞机。

I mean, they used the most inflammatory rhetoric.

我的意思是，他们使用了最具煽动性的言论。

And it very quickly became apparent that they were just mistaken.

很快人们就发现他们错了。

And then they were stuck with this PR nightmare.

然后他们就陷入了这场公关噩梦。

And at the same time, there was this sense, this nagging sense, that, well, maybe they are really bad, but we just can't find out.

与此同时，还有这种感觉，这种挥之不去的感觉，好吧，也许它们真的很糟糕，但我们就是找不到答案。

Maybe they're not Afghan dirt farmers as all appearances seem to be.

也许他们并不像表面上看起来的那样是阿富汗的土农。

How do we really know?

我们怎么知道呢？

Maybe we need to use more aggressive techniques to find out.

也许我们需要使用更激进的技术来找出答案。

So they kept turning up the heat and using more and more coercive techniques on people who were less and less significant.

因此，他们不断加大力度，对那些地位越来越低的人使用越来越多的强制手段。

Meanwhile, our clients are experiencing this really scary deterioration in their mental health as hope gradually disappears.

与此同时，随着希望逐渐消失，我们的客户正在经历心理健康状况的可怕恶化。

They have become increasingly desperate, and so that's why there's a hunger strike there going on, an unknown number of people who are starving themselves.

他们变得越来越绝望，所以才会有绝食抗议，不知道有多少人在挨饿。

Who are being force fed through a tube through their nose that goes into their stomach, and they're only staying alive through that.

他们被通过鼻子的管子强行喂食，管子进入胃部，他们只能通过这个来维持生命。

In this new war, the plan was to build a prison so bleak that the detainees would give up hope and talk.

在这场新的战争中，计划是建造一座如此荒凉的监狱，让被拘留者放弃希望并开口说话。

The military was given a mission and they did a good job.

军队被赋予了使命，他们做得很好。

But many prisoners are now moving into year five.

但许多囚犯现在已进入五年级。

If they're al-Qaeda, detainment is perfectly justified.

如果他们是基地组织，拘留是完全合理的。

No one argues that.

没有人争论这一点。

But think about what these incarcerations are for men wrongfully and indefinitely detained.

但想想这些监禁对于被错误和无限期拘留的男性来说意味着什么。

It's like being buried alive in a coffin.

就像被活埋在棺材里一样。

Nobody knows how many of the prisoners are, in fact, the worst of the worst, and how many are innocent.

事实上，没有人知道有多少囚犯是最坏的囚犯，有多少是无辜的。

But we have a way to find out, it's called habeas corpus.

但我们有办法找到答案，这就是人身保护令。

Jack Hitt.

杰克·希特.

Coming up, the most popular poem among prisoners at Guantanamo.

关塔那摩囚犯中最受欢迎的诗歌即将推出。

Or if not the most popular, at least it's very, very popular we're told.

或者，即使不是最受欢迎的，至少我们被告知它非常非常受欢迎。

That is in a minute.

那是在一分钟之内。

From Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International when our program continues.

当我们的节目继续进行时，来自芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台。

It's This American Life, I'm Ira Glass.

这就是美国生活，我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Our program today, "Habeas Schmabeas," stories from Guantanamo.

我们今天的节目“Habeas Schmabeas”，讲述关塔那摩的故事。

We're rebroadcasting a show that we first broadcast one year ago.

我们正在重播一年前首次播出的节目。

So where do things stand now?

那么现在情况如何呢？

Well, in the Fall of 2006, this past Fall, the president signed a law with solid bipartisan majorities that officially denies habeas rights to Guantanamo prisoners.

嗯，在 2006 年秋天，即刚刚过去的秋天，总统以两党绝对多数签署了一项法律，正式剥夺了关塔那摩囚犯的人身保护权。

At this point, the CSRT is still the closest thing the detainees have to a habeas hearing, and the CSRT rules have not changed.

目前，CSRT 仍然是被拘留者最接近人身保护听证会的方式，而且 CSRT 规则没有改变。

Prisoners don't get to see the evidence that's used against them.

囚犯看不到对他们不利的证据。

And evidence obtained through torture can be used.

并且可以使用通过酷刑获得的证据。

All of this is on appeal and will probably end up in the Supreme Court.

所有这些都在上诉中，最终可能会上诉到最高法院。

This actually brings us to act two of our show.

这实际上让我们进入了节目的第二幕。

Act two, "September 11, 1660."

第二幕，“1660 年 9 月 11 日”。

Habeas rights were originally created in England, and in one of the Supreme Court cases on this issue, 175 members of the British parliament filed a, "friend of the court" brief, an amicus brief.

人身保护权最初是在英国创立的，在最高法院关于这一问题的一个案件中，175 名英国议会议员提交了一份“法院之友”陈述，即法庭之友陈述。

The first time in Supreme Court history that this has happened.

这种情况在最高法院历史上还是第一次。

And they argued first of all, that British citizens being held at Guantanamo deserved better than what they were getting in terms of these rights.

他们首先认为，就这些权利而言，被关押在关塔那摩的英国公民应该得到比他们所得到的更好的权利。

And they also said, essentially, are you guys nuts?

他们还说，本质上，你们疯了吗？

This is from their brief.

这是他们的简介。

"The exercise of executive power without possibility of judicial review jeopardizes the keystone of our existence as nations.

“在没有司法审查的情况下行使行政权力危及我们作为国家存在的基石。

Namely, the rule of law."

即法治。”

It also pointed out the history of habeas.

它还指出了人身保护令的历史。

How after World War II Winston Churchill wanted to suspend habeas rights for Nazi leaders and just shoot them.

第二次世界大战后，温斯顿·丘吉尔如何想要暂停纳粹领导人的人身保护权并直接枪杀他们。

And it was the United States which argued for habeas and for trials, which led to the Nuremberg Trials.

正是美国主张人身保护和审判，导致了纽伦堡审判。

They also finally pointed out how badly it had gone the last time that they, in England, tried to suspend habeas like this.

他们最后还指出，上一次他们在英国试图像这样暂停人身保护令时，情况有多糟糕。

"In the 1600s, they write, during the British Civil War, the British created their own version of Guantanamo Bay and dispatched undesirable prisoners to garrisons off the mainland, beyond the reach of habeas corpus relief."

“他们写道，在 1600 年代，英国内战期间，英国人创建了自己的关塔那摩湾，并将不受欢迎的囚犯派往大陆附近的驻军，超出了人身保护令救济的范围。”

The guy who did that was named Lord Clarendon.

这样做的人名叫克拉伦登勋爵。

And in England, one of our regular contributors, Jon Ronson, decided to look into it.

在英格兰，我们的定期撰稿人之一乔恩·罗森 (Jon Ronson) 决定对此进行调查。

So it turns out that the last person to come up with this exact same way to sidestep habeas corpus is a lord I have never heard of, a not household name lord called Clarendon.

事实证明，最后一个想出这种完全相同的方法来回避人身保护令的人是一位我从未听说过的勋爵，一位名叫克拉伦登的不知名勋爵。

Who was he?

他是谁？

I went to a professional, Tony McDonnell, who said he'd take me to Clarendon's grave in Westminster Abbey.

我去找了一位专业人士托尼·麦克唐纳，他说他会带我去威斯敏斯特教堂克拉伦登的坟墓。

Yes, we're here in the south of Westminster Abbey.

是的，我们在威斯敏斯特教堂的南部。

I noticed we just passed Charles Darwin's grave.

我注意到我们刚刚经过查尔斯·达尔文的坟墓。

You said you were once showing an American party around and somebody spat it, spat at Charles Darwin's grave.

你说你曾经带一个美国聚会四处参观，有人向它吐口水，向查尔斯·达尔文的坟墓吐口水。

On his grave, yes.

在他的坟墓上，是的。

And wanted to know why he was buried here.

并想知道他为什么被埋在这里。

And we just passed the spot where Elton John sang "Candle in the Wind" at Princess diana's funeral.

我们刚刚经过艾尔顿·约翰在戴安娜王妃葬礼上演唱《风中蜡烛》的地方。

Yes, that was in front of Lord Stanhope's memorial in the nave.

是的，那是在中殿斯坦霍普勋爵纪念碑前。

You have to be famous or a great loyalist, or at least someone who worked here, like an organist to be buried here.

你必须很有名，或者是一位伟大的忠诚者，或者至少是在这里工作过的人，比如风琴师，才能埋葬在这里。

Tony is a historian and a blue badge guide, an official Westminster tour guide.

托尼是一位历史学家和蓝徽章导游，也是威斯敏斯特官方导游。

He took me down corridors and through chambers until we came to a flagstone on the floor, Lord Clarendon's grave.

他带着我穿过走廊，穿过房间，直到我们来到地板上的一块石板前，那是克拉伦登勋爵的坟墓。

He's in [?

他在[?

vaulted ?] company.

拱形？]公司。

Henry the V is buried just to his left, and Elizabeth the I lies a couple of yards in front of him.

亨利五世埋葬在他的左边，伊丽莎白一世埋葬在他前面几码远的地方。

Tony explains who Lord Clarendon was.

托尼解释了克拉伦登勋爵是谁。

He was for want of a better word, nowadays he'd probably be called a prime minister.

他找不到更好的词了，现在他可能会被称为首相。

And he was the main adviser to the king.

他是国王的主要顾问。

So Clarendon had this job.

所以克拉伦登得到了这份工作。

He was the king's advisor in the middle of a civil war, in which the king was killed.

他在内战期间担任国王的顾问，国王在内战中被杀。

There were two sides.

有两个方面。

You've got the monarchists and then you've got the puritans who murdered the king because they saw the kingdom as debauched and decadent.

有君主主义者，也有清教徒，他们谋杀了国王，因为他们认为这个王国是放荡和颓废的。

Now I know you Americans see puritans as kindly settlers constantly sitting down to Thanksgiving dinner.

现在我知道你们美国人将清教徒视为善良的定居者，经常坐下来吃感恩节晚餐。

We see them as bastards.

我们视他们为私生子。

They were religious fundamentalists.

他们是宗教原教旨主义者。

In other words, they were--

换句话说，他们是——

Men who believed that all they had to do was to overthrow the government and the reign of Jesus Christ would come once more among them.

人们相信他们所要做的就是推翻政府，耶稣基督的统治就会再次降临到他们中间。

So this was a bustle of civilization.

所以这是文明的喧嚣。

It was a bustle of religious ideology.

这是宗教意识形态的喧嚣。

It was most definitely a bustle of religious ideology.

这绝对是宗教意识形态的喧嚣。

So as puritans, were they seen to be kind of crazy, religious fundamentalists, these people?

那么，作为清教徒，他们是否被视为疯狂的宗教原教旨主义者，这些人？

Some of the people were, and they were among the most persecuted after the Restoration.

其中一些人是，而且他们是复辟后受迫害最严重的人之一。

The Restoration.

复兴。

This is when the whole sending people away to offshore islands with dubious sovereignty business took place.

整个送人到主权存疑的离岛事务就在此时发生。

It was the period after the war.

那是战后时期。

The puritans had been defeated, a king, Charles the II was restored to power, along with his main advisor, Lord Clarendon.

清教徒被击败，国王查理二世和他的主要顾问克拉伦登勋爵重新掌权。

Consider what it was like for Clarendon and the monarchists.

想想克拉伦登和君主主义者的感受。

They'd been in exile for years.

他们已经流亡多年。

Many of their friends and supporters had been locked up or killed.

他们的许多朋友和支持者被关押或杀害。

The puritans had been vicious.

清教徒是恶毒的。

They had killed the king.

他们杀死了国王。

And many of the men who'd done it, were still at large, plotting out there.

许多干这事的人仍然逍遥法外，在那里密谋。

It was a 9/11 style trauma and Clarendon behaved in a traumatized way.

这是一次 9/11 式的创伤，克拉伦登的行为方式也受到了创伤。

He probably was paranoid to some extent.

他可能在某种程度上有些偏执。

The whole of the new establishment were paranoid.

整个新机构都充满了偏执。

They saw plots everywhere.

他们到处都看到了阴谋。

And there was a feeling of retribution in the air.

而且空气中还弥漫着一种被报复的感觉。

Some people say they had good reason to be paranoid.

有些人说他们有充分的理由偏执。

Well, these people had done the most unimaginably horrific acts.

好吧，这些人做出了最令人难以想象的可怕行为。

They killed the king.

他们杀了国王。

They had killed the king and they were capable of anything is what that would have been said.

他们杀了国王，可以说他们无所不能。

That's why they were put where they were and it was for the safety of all of us, and we're doing you all a favor.

这就是为什么它们被放在原来的地方，这是为了我们所有人的安全，我们是在帮你们大家一个忙。

Heaven knows what would have happened.

天知道会发生什么。

They were wicked people and those were the people who were then shipped off by Clarendon.

他们是邪恶的人，然后就是那些被克拉伦登运走的人。

The exact location of Lord Clarendon's Guantanamo is lost to history.

克拉伦登勋爵的关塔那摩监狱的确切位置已被历史遗忘。

It was probably in Jersey or Guernsey, which today are rather nice seaside tax havens for the rich.

可能是在泽西岛或根西岛，如今这些地方对于富人来说是相当不错的海滨避税天堂。

But suspending habeas corpus didn't work out well for Lord Clarendon.

但暂停人身保护令对克拉伦登勋爵来说效果不佳。

He was impeached.

他被弹劾了。

At his impeachment trial, he was accused of sending people away to, quote, "remote islands, garrisons, and other places, thereby to prevent them from the benefit of the law, and to produce precedence for the imprisoning of any other of his majesty's subjects in like manner." And remember, democracy as we know it is still centuries away.

在弹劾审判中，他被指控将人们送往“偏远的岛屿、驻军和其他地方，从而阻止他们享受法律的好处，并为以类似方式监禁任何其他国王陛下的臣民提供优先权”。请记住，我们所知道的民主还有几个世纪的时间。

Innocent until proven guilty, one man one vote, only the most extreme radicals held these views.

在被证明有罪之前无罪，一人一票，只有最极端的激进分子才会持有这些观点。

These were dark times.

那是一段黑暗时期。

There were heads on spikes all over London.

伦敦各地都有尖刺上的头颅。

And still, the people were shocked by Clarendon's disregard for habeas corpus.

尽管如此，人们还是对克拉伦登对人身保护令的无视感到震惊。

People took it seriously and they would have bandied it about with each other, this idea that you had to produce somebody and accuse them in law in front of their own peers.

人们认真对待它，他们会互相讨论，这种想法是你必须找一个人并在他们的同行面前通过法律指控他们。

The parallels are so obvious when you read the history of habeas corpus and the amount of times it's just been suspended.

当你阅读人身保护令的历史以及它被暂停的次数时，相似之处是非常明显的。

That is what they always, always do.

这就是他们一直以来所做的。

They say that these people are capable of anything.

他们说这些人有能力做任何事情。

These people do not hold the same values as we do.

这些人的价值观与我们不同。

They're out to destroy our way of life.

他们的目的是破坏我们的生活方式。

It's more or less the same situation.

情况或多或少是一样的。

The one outcome of all of this was the habeas corpus act of 1679, which specifically forbade what Clarendon had done and made it illegal to send a prison quote, "into Scotland, Ireland, Jersey, Guernsey, Tangier, or into parts, garrisons, islands, or places beyond the seas, which are, or at any time hereafter, shall be within or without the dominions of his majesty." And forbade at his remains for 330 years.

所有这一切的结果之一是1679年的人身保护令法案，该法案明确禁止克拉伦登的所作所为，并将监狱报价发送到“进入苏格兰、爱尔兰、泽西岛、根西岛、丹吉尔，或进入部分地区、驻军、岛屿或海洋以外的地方，这些地方或此后任何时候，无论在国王陛下的管辖范围内还是在其管辖范围之外”都是非法的。并在 330 年内禁止他的遗骸。

In England, anyway.

无论如何，在英格兰。

Jon Ronson.

乔恩·罗森.

He does documentaries for the BBS and is the author of the book, Them.

他为 BBS 制作纪录片，也是《他们》一书的作者。

Act Three, we interrogate the detainees.

第三幕，我们审问被拘留者。

Yes, the US military had their chance with them.

是的，美军有机会对付他们。

In this act, Jack Hitt talks to two former detainees from Guantanamo.

在这一幕中，杰克·希特与关塔那摩的两名前被拘留者交谈。

One of these guys you've heard a little bit from earlier in our show, Badr Zaman Badr, the guy who ran the satirical magazine named Pashto with his brother in Pakistan.

你在我们的节目早些时候听说过其中一个人，巴德尔·扎曼·巴德尔（Badr Zaman Badr），他和他的兄弟在巴基斯坦经营讽刺杂志《普什图语》。

The other guy was 19 when he was picked up, Abdullah Al Noaimi, a kid from a well to do family in Bahrain.

另一个人被接走时才 19 岁，阿卜杜拉·阿尔·诺艾米 (Abdullah Al Noaimi)，一个来自巴林一个富裕家庭的孩子。

Here's Jack.

这是杰克。

Abdullah wound up in American custody the way a lot of the men at Guantanamo did, he was a foreigner in Pakistan and we were offering bounties for guys like that.

阿卜杜拉最终像关塔那摩监狱的许多人一样被美国拘留，他是巴基斯坦的外国人，我们为这样的人提供赏金。

Remember Murat Kurnaz, the guy whose friend was supposedly a suicide bomber and Juma's al-Dossary?

还记得穆拉特·库纳兹（Murat Kurnaz）吗？他的朋友据说是一名自杀式炸弹袭击者，也是朱马的多萨里（al-Dossary）？

Same thing happened to them.

同样的事情也发生在他们身上。

In Abdullah's case, he was first taken to Kandahar, to a makeshift prison the US set up at an air base with about 20 men to a tent.

就阿卜杜拉而言，他首先被带到坎大哈，这是美国在一个空军基地设立的临时监狱，一个帐篷里关着大约 20 名男子。

When we first go in Kandahar, I was surprised, like I never seen those pictures or those views.

当我们第一次去坎大哈时，我很惊讶，就像我从未见过那些照片或那些景色一样。

Only in the ancient movies, like dark ages.

只存在于古代电影中，比如黑暗时代。

We were chained by the legs, like shackled.

我们的腿被锁住了，就像戴上了脚镣一样。

And they ordered us to pick up rocks.

他们命令我们捡起石头。

Can you imagine this?

你能想象这个吗？

They said, you should pick up the rocks on the ground, like put it all together on a pile.

他们说，你应该把地上的石头捡起来，就像把它们堆在一起一样。

There was no water to make [UNINTELLIGIBLE] or to take a shower.

没有水可以制作[难以理解]或洗澡。

Badr, the satirist, was taken to that same air base at Kandahar.

讽刺作家巴德尔被带到坎大哈的同一个空军基地。

The MPs were treating us very harshly.

国会议员对待我们非常严厉。

We had to be on our knees for long hours and to put our hands on our head.

我们必须长时间跪下，并将双手放在头上。

And mostly they used the word [BLEEP].

他们大多使用“BLEEP”这个词。

And they used to tell us to put our [BLEEP] hands on our [BLEEP] heads.

他们常常告诉我们将[BLEEP] 手放在[BLEEP] 头上。

And we didn't like that.

我们不喜欢这样。

In the camps, Badr got separated from his brother, the poet.

在集中营里，巴德尔与他的诗人兄弟失散了。

So he devised a way to find him.

于是他想出了一个办法来找到他。

The detainees didn't have toilets, instead they got a bucket, which got filled up with what Badr modestly calls "dirt."

被拘留者没有厕所，而是有一个水桶，里面装满了巴德尔谦虚地称之为“泥土”的东西。

Every day, some detainee get chosen to empty the buckets.

每天都会选择一些被拘留者来倒水桶。

Badr volunteered.

巴德尔是自愿的。

Because I wanted to meet my brother.

因为我想见见我的兄弟。

To go from tent to tent.

从一个帐篷走到另一个帐篷。

Then my brother, when I saw my brother and he was giving me his bucket to empty that was the first springtime.

然后是我的兄弟，当我看到我的兄弟时，他正在把他的水桶交给我，那是第一个春天。

He said, what a spring it is.

他说，这真是一个春天啊。

There are no flowers and instead of the smell of the flowers, we have this dirt smell.

没有花，没有花的味道，只有泥土的味道。

I can't translate it.

我无法翻译它。

And actually, it's in Pashto.

事实上，它是普什图语。

These are really beautiful lines.

这些线条真的很漂亮。

The sanitary conditions were just as bad, if not worse, for Abdullah.

对于阿卜杜拉来说，卫生条件即使不是更糟，也同样糟糕。

The tent he shared with other detainees was open on all sides and located at the end of the military airstrip.

他与其他被拘留者共用的帐篷四面敞开，位于军用机场的尽头。

Every takeoff and landing meant a tornado of dirt-- the literal kind-- blasted through.

每一次起飞和降落都意味着一场尘土龙卷风——真正的那种——席卷而过。

In the first few days, he heard the other prisoners in the tent talking about their interrogations.

刚开始的几天，他听到帐篷里的其他犯人谈论着他们的审讯。

They told me that they had electric shocks on them.

他们告诉我他们受到了电击。

And one of them was threatened to be raped.

其中一名被威胁要被强奸。

And they took off his pants.

他们脱掉了他的裤子。

And I was thinking, what am I going to do?

我在想，我该怎么办？

They took me at night.

他们晚上带我去。

There was two interrogators.

有两名审讯者。

They wanted me to say that I was a terrorist.

他们要我说我是恐怖分子。

I told them, no, I'm not and everything.

我告诉他们，不，我不是，一切都不是。

Then they started pushing me and everything.

然后他们开始逼迫我和一切。

And then they brought a cigarette that the interrogator was smoking.

然后他们带来了审讯者正在抽的香烟。

He blew the smoke on my face and then he came very close, very, very close to my face, and brought the cigarette between my eyes.

他把烟吹到我脸上，然后他离我的脸非常非常近，把香烟放在我的两眼之间。

And he said, I swear to God I'm going to put it in your forehead if you don't tell me what I want to hear.

他说，我向上帝发誓，如果你不告诉我我想听的话，我就把它放在你的额头上。

I thought about it.

我想了一下。

I felt like this is a jungle and only the strong lived in it.

我感觉这里就像是一个丛林，只有强者才能生存。

But still there is small creatures that can live, but not by facing-- the lions aren't facing big animals.

但仍然有一些小动物可以生存，但不是通过面对——狮子不是面对大型动物。

No.

不。

But by maybe hiding or changing their colors as the trees.

但也许可以像树木一样隐藏或改变它们的颜色。

So I just told them whatever you want to hear from me I'm going to tell you.

所以我只是告诉他们，无论你想从我这里听到什么，我都会告诉你。

What do you want me to say?

你想让我说什么？

He said, say that you're a terrorist.

他说，说你是恐怖分子。

You want me to say I'm a terrorist?

你想让我说我是恐怖分子吗？

Are you going to let me go?

你要放我走吗？

Are you going to let me go sleep?

你要让我去睡觉吗？

Because they always torture, like not keeping me asleep.

因为他们总是折磨我，比如不让我睡觉。

They keep me awake all the time.

他们让我一直保持清醒。

So I tell them, OK.

所以我告诉他们，好吧。

I'm going to tell you whatever you want.

我会告诉你任何你想要的。

Yeah, I'm a terrorist and go tell your bosses.

是的，我是一名恐怖分子，去告诉你的老板。

They left me.

他们离开了我。

This is not how he thought things would go with the Americans.

他认为美国人的事情不会这样发展。

In fact, back when he was being held on a Pakistan jail, when he found out that Americans would be taking them, he was relieved.

事实上，当他被关押在巴基斯坦监狱时，当他发现美国人会带走他们时，他松了一口气。

He told the other prisoners it was good news.

他告诉其他囚犯这是个好消息。

He knew America, he knew how the people were.

他了解美国，他了解人们的生活方式。

And I lived so many places, like Europe and England, and Germany, and France.

我住过很多地方，比如欧洲、英国、德国和法国。

But the difference was in the states, everywhere you go they welcome you.

但不同的是在美国，无论你走到哪里，他们都欢迎你。

Like when you go in the supermarket, everybody goes, how you doing and everything.

就像当你走进超市时，每个人都会去，你在做什么等等。

That's the thing that was in my mind.

这就是我心里的想法。

I was like, please, everything's going to be fine.

我当时想，拜托，一切都会好起来的。

They're going to understand.

他们会理解的。

So how did he know so much about American supermarkets?

那么他是怎么对美国超市了解这么多的呢？

Well, in 1994, he came to America for the World Cup finals.

嗯，1994年，他来到美国参加世界杯决赛。

In fact, Abdullah's been here a lot.

事实上，阿卜杜拉已经来过这里很多次了。

He's been downhill skiing in the Midwest.

他一直在中西部进行高山滑雪。

He attended Old Dominion University in Virginia for a while, and has taken other trips too.

他曾在弗吉尼亚州的奥多明尼恩大学学习过一段时间，也曾去过其他地方。

And in '96 I was in Disneyland in Orlando.

96 年我在奥兰多的迪士尼乐园。

For spring break I was in Daytona Beach with some of my friends.

春假期间，我和一些朋友在代托纳海滩。

You were in Daytona Beach for spring break?

您在代托纳海滩度过春假吗？

I remember the guys, young guys standing by the sidewalk having the signs for the car for [UNINTELLIGIBLE].

我记得那些年轻人，站在人行道上，举着[无法辨认]的汽车标志。

Some expressions [UNINTELLIGIBLE PHRASE], show us.

一些表达[难以理解的短语]，向我们展示。

Oh, right.

哦，对了。

That expression, the show us your--

那表情，向我们展示了你的——

Yeah, that expression.

是啊，就是这个表情。

That's the most I remember about Daytona.

这是我对代托纳最多的记忆。

So a year after seeing the sights in Daytona Beach, Abdullah found himself facing an American interrogator in Kandahar.

因此，在看到代托纳海滩的景象一年后，阿卜杜拉发现自己在坎大哈面临着一名美国审讯者。

I got shocked.

我很震惊。

I got shocked when the first interview, like cursing me up and down.

第一次面试的时候我很震惊，就像是上下咒骂我一样。

Cursing my father, cursing my family.

咒骂我的父亲，咒骂我的家人。

Cursing my country.

咒骂我的国家。

Cursing my government, everything.

诅咒我的政府，一切。

Why?

为什么？

That was the question I wanted to know.

这就是我想知道的问题。

What's going on?

这是怎么回事？

Do I know you?

我知道你？

What do you have against me?

你跟我有什么仇怨？

What did I do to you?

我对你做了什么？

Badr had learned of the West from more scholarly sources.

巴德尔从更多的学术来源了解了西方。

He's a big fan of the Canterbury Tales and Gulliver's Travels.

他是《坎特伯雷故事集》和《格列佛游记》的忠实粉丝。

And he also knew about the Geneva Conventions and spoke up when he realized they weren't going to apply.

他还了解《日内瓦公约》，并在意识到这些公约不适用时发表了自己的看法。

Actually, our complaint was that they were not accepting us as prisoner of war.

事实上，我们的抱怨是他们不接受我们作为战俘。

They were not giving us those rights.

他们没有给我们这些权利。

And actually, they were just running from American legal system.

事实上，他们只是在逃避美国的法律体系。

I mean, I had told my interrogators many times, if we are really guilty, why don't they put us on trial in American courts?

我的意思是，我已经多次告诉审讯者，如果我们真的有罪，他们为什么不在美国法庭上审判我们呢？

Finally, Badr and Abdullah were each taken out of the camps at Kandahar and put on a plane to Guantanamo.

最后，巴德尔和阿卜杜拉分别被带出坎大哈难民营，并登上飞往关塔那摩的飞机。

Remember, this is an international flight from Afghanistan to Cuba, over 20 hours long.

请记住，这是从阿富汗飞往古巴的国际航班，飞行时间超过 20 小时。

We were handcuffed and the handcuffs was tied to our stomachs.

我们被戴上手铐，手铐绑在我们的肚子上。

And there is a chain connected to our legs.

还有一条链条连接到我们的腿上。

Other detainees next to you are stuck to you.

你旁边的其他被拘留者都粘在你身上。

They used to put [UNINTELLIGIBLE] on our head.

他们曾经把[无法辨认]放在我们的头上。

And we had masks that we can hardly breath.

我们戴着口罩，几乎无法呼吸。

We could not hear, we could not see.

我们听不到，也看不到。

We can even not touch.

我们甚至可以不碰。

So they had to stop all senses completely.

所以他们必须完全停止所有感官。

To have hearing, seeing, tasting, smelling, those things only human can have.

拥有听觉、视觉、味觉、嗅觉，这些东西只有人类才能拥有。

Once they got to Guantanamo, both Badr and Abdullah described being stripped naked, medically examined, and then put into cages until a new round of interrogations began.

巴德尔和阿卜杜拉一抵达关塔那摩，就被脱光衣服接受医学检查，然后关进笼子里，直到新一轮审讯开始。

Mostly they used to ask questions about the various organizations and how they get money why people hurt Americans and so and so.

大多数情况下，他们常常询问有关各个组织的问题，以及他们如何获得资金，为什么人们会伤害美国人等等。

And there have been even stupid questions.

甚至还有一些愚蠢的问题。

Like?

喜欢？

Abdullah There have been stupid questions, that if we have seen Osama bin Laden, [UNINTELLIGIBLE], if we intend to attack Americans.

阿卜杜拉 有一些愚蠢的问题，如果我们看到奥萨马·本·拉登，[难以理解]，我们是否打算攻击美国人。

As if I know Osama bin Laden.

好像我认识奥萨马·本·拉登一样。

I was shocked, I'm 19 years old.

我惊呆了，我才19岁。

Abdullah and Badr, by the way, arrived at different times at the base, and never knew each other.

顺便说一句，阿卜杜拉和巴德尔在不同时间到达基地，而且彼此从未认识。

But they both described meeting lots of ordinary people, farmers, teachers, cab drivers, who were also sold to the Americans.

但他们都描述了遇到了很多普通人、农民、教师、出租车司机，他们也被卖给了美国人。

Abdullah talked to one guy who sold by his own father-in-law.

阿卜杜拉与一位被自己岳父卖掉的人交谈过。

Badr met men who had never even heard of Osama bin Laden.

巴德尔遇到了一些从未听说过奥萨马·本·拉登的人。

Abdullah was originally arrested while traveling in Pakistan.

阿卜杜拉最初是在巴基斯坦旅行时被捕的。

A man offered him a meal, and a place to rest, and later turned him over to the army for the bounty.

一名男子为他提供了一顿饭和一个休息的地方，后来把他交给了军队以获得赏金。

Abdullah says he saw the money change hands at the jail.

阿卜杜拉说，他看到钱在监狱里易手。

Once in American custody, he was accused of traveling to Afghanistan and proclaiming his desire to carry out Jihad.

在被美国拘留后，他被指控前往阿富汗并宣称希望进行圣战。

Sometimes the interrogators want to put the stress on us.

有时审讯者想给我们施加压力。

They come and ask me, do you want to go home?

他们过来问我，你想回家吗？

They don't want to take me home, but they're just asking.

他们不想带我回家，但他们只是问问而已。

To make you angry and nervous that you'll never go home and keep telling you those things.

让你生气和紧张，因为你永远不会回家并一直告诉你这些事情。

but in response, I tell them the same thing.

但作为回应，我告诉他们同样的事情。

No in fact, I don't want to go to home.

不，事实上，我不想回家。

I'm OK here.

我在这里还好。

I like you so much and I don't want to leave you.

我非常喜欢你，我不想离开你。

Now did they think you were a smartass?

现在他们认为你是个聪明人吗？

How did they react to that?

他们对此有何反应？

They got surprised the first time, but then they got used to it because everybody say it.

他们第一次很惊讶，但后来他们就习惯了，因为每个人都这么说。

Even if, for example.

即使，例如。

stop you from food, stop you from sleeping, stop you from talking.

阻止你吃饭，阻止你睡觉，阻止你说话。

I don't know why, you just keep smiling.

不知道为什么，你就是一直笑。

So much of what we hear about Guantanamo is about the harsh treatment there.

我们听到的关于关塔那摩的很多信息都是关于那里的残酷待遇。

But of course, like any place, the days mostly pass in boredom.

但当然，就像任何地方一样，日子大多是在无聊中度过的。

The interrogators might be rough, but the MPs and guards who had to spend time with the detainees sometimes would get comfortable and start talking to the prisoners.

审讯者可能很粗暴，但必须与被拘留者共度时光的议员和警卫有时会感到舒服并开始与囚犯交谈。

They ask me, tell me the truth.

他们问我，告诉我真相。

Are you a terrorist or not?

你是不是恐怖分子？

They were told that I'm a terrorist, but they still ask me.

他们被告知我是恐怖分子，但他们仍然问我。

Why?

为什么？

Because of doubt in their hearts.

因为他们心中有疑惑。

They still have doubt.

他们仍然心存疑虑。

They don't seem like as we've heard.

他们看起来并不像我们听说的那样。

And then we start talking and talking and talking.

然后我们开始聊啊聊啊。

Most of the guards they told me that when I first came here I was trained that everybody over here is like monsters.

大多数警卫告诉我，当我第一次来这里时，我接受的训练是，这里的每个人都像怪物。

They're going to jump from the cages and they're going to chew you up and everything.

他们会从笼子里跳出来，然后咀嚼你和所有东西。

They said, we thought different.

他们说，我们想法不同。

We thought that the American forces captured you in a battle or something.

我们以为美军在一场战斗或其他什么事情中俘获了你。

So some people they are forced to treat us bad.

所以有些人被迫对我们不好。

But you can see, you can tell from their eyes.

但你可以看到，你可以从他们的眼睛里看出。

And some they feel like this is not the right thing to do.

有些人觉得这不是正确的做法。

They feel this is wrong.

他们觉得这是错误的。

They told me themself.

他们自己告诉我的。

Some of them told me, if I don't follow orders, I'm going to be in your place.

他们中的一些人告诉我，如果我不服从命令，我就会取代你的位置。

I really miss them now.

我现在真的很想念他们。

To pass the time, the prisoners would sing together, or try out new poems they'd written.

为了打发时间，囚犯们会一起唱歌，或者尝试他们写的新诗。

They developed a secret postal system for passing notes and photos, and figured out how to talk to each other through the air conditioning vents.

他们开发了一种秘密邮政系统来传递纸条和照片，并想出了如何通过空调通风口相互交谈。

Sometimes, the guards and prisoners would hold little competitions, like the styrofoam cup challenge.

有时，看守和犯人会举办一些小比赛，比如泡沫塑料杯挑战赛。

The object was to turn the cup inside out without cracking it.

目的是将杯子翻过来而不使其破裂。

The guards went first.

侍卫先走了。

They spent hours and hours and hours and they came back.

他们花了几个小时、几个小时、几个小时，然后他们回来了。

They couldn't do it.

他们做不到。

They said, OK, let's try it to flip the cup underwater.

他们说，好吧，我们试试在水下翻转杯子。

They tried and it didn't work.

他们尝试过，但没有成功。

Then the detainees said, OK, we're going to do it for you.

然后被拘留者说，好吧，我们会为你做的。

The detainees did it.

被拘留者做到了。

They flipped the cup inside out.

他们把杯子翻过来。

Like totally inside out.

就像完全由内而外。

You could read the brand of the cup inside the cup instead of outside.

您可以在杯子内部而不是外部看到杯子的品牌。

Dart.

镖。

Abdullah Yeah, one was Dart and the other was Oklahoma.

阿卜杜拉 是的，一个是达特，另一个是俄克拉荷马。

Yeah, community of Oklahoma for blinds.

是的，俄克拉荷马州的百叶窗社区。

Since pen and paper were forbidden, Badr's brother wrote his poetry by scratching the words into styrofoam cups with his fingernails.

由于禁止使用笔和纸，巴德尔的哥哥就用指甲将诗词刻在聚苯乙烯泡沫塑料杯上来写诗。

After a year, they were allowed to use pens and to read books.

一年后，他们被允许使用笔和读书。

Abdullah read David Copperfield.

阿卜杜拉读过《大卫·科波菲尔》。

Badr and his brother composed some 25,000 lines of verse.

巴德尔和他的兄弟创作了大约 25,000 行诗句。

The other inmates memorized the best of them.

其他囚犯都记住了其中最好的。

The most popular couplet went like this.

最流行的对联是这样的。

It says, [SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE] These are the first two lines.

它说，[说外语] 这是前两行。

It means, they bring good and bad people to the same jail and there is no oil and salt in the rice.

意思是，他们把好人和坏人关在同一个监狱里，米里没有油和盐。

Get that?

明白了吗？

There's no oil or salt in the rice.

米饭里没有油或盐。

It's really funny in Pashto if you just [UNINTELLIGIBLE] to any Pashto speaker in your country, he would really love that.

如果你对你所在国家的任何说普什图语的人[难以理解]，这在普什图语中真的很有趣，他会非常喜欢的。

[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE]

[说外语]

Finally, one day, four years after he left Pakistan, Abdullah was pulled aside by a military officer who had news.

最后，阿卜杜拉离开巴基斯坦四年后的一天，被一位有消息的军官拉到一边。

Abdullah was going home.

阿卜杜拉要回家了。

Abdullah says he was asked by a government lawyer, a major, to sign a contract promising not to join a terrorist group and giving the US permission to rearrest him at any time.

阿卜杜拉说，一名少校政府律师要求他签署一份合同，承诺不加入恐怖组织，并允许美国随时重新逮捕他。

He refused to sign.

他拒绝签字。

Other detainees say they were shown similar letters and also refused to sign, believing this was just another trick.

其他被拘留者表示，他们看到了类似的信件，但也拒绝签名，认为这只是另一个骗局。

Did they ever explain why they were letting you go?

他们有没有解释过为什么让你走？

No. Jack Hitt But they told you they had made a mistake in the end?

不，杰克·希特 但他们告诉你他们最终犯了一个错误？

The government lawyer, he didn't say a mistake by the lack of vocabulary of mistake.

政府律师，他没有因为缺乏错误词汇而说错。

He didn't say mistake.

他没有说错。

But he said we picked you up as enemy combatant, but it turned out that you are not one.

但他说我们把你当作敌方战斗人员，但事实证明你不是敌方战斗人员。

We don't see that you're an enemy combatant.

我们看不出你是敌方战斗人员。

He just give me an example of a mistake, but he didn't say we made a mistake.

他只是给我举了一个错误的例子，但他没有说我们犯了错误。

And just as suddenly, Abdullah was on an airplane and back in Bahrain.

同样突然，阿卜杜拉乘飞机回到巴林。

He was quickly ushered past the news media and into a room where he saw his family.

他很快就被带过新闻媒体，进入一个房间，在那里他见到了家人。

They greeted me.

他们向我打招呼。

They welcomed me.

他们欢迎我。

They hugged me and everything.

他们拥抱了我以及一切。

Then they took me home.

然后他们就带我回家了。

I didn't tell them anything.

我什么也没告诉他们。

Everybody's crying.

每个人都在哭。

I left my sister and she was very young, about five, six years.

我离开了我妹妹，她还很小，大约五六岁。

I didn't know her when I saw her.

当我看到她时我并不认识她。

She was like a lady.

她就像一位女士。

When you saw your brothers and your father, what was that like?

当你看到你的兄弟和你的父亲时，感觉如何？

Have you ever heard the expression, "home sweet home?"

你听过“甜蜜的家”这句话吗？

Yes, I have, actually.

是的，实际上我有。

Abdullah Yeah, of course.

阿卜杜拉 是的，当然。

That's the best time to say home sweet home.

这是说“甜蜜的家”的最佳时机。

Americans are going to think that because you were at Guantanamo Bay that you were a terrorist.

美国人会认为，因为你在关塔那摩湾，所以你就是恐怖分子。

And that everybody there was.

那里的每个人都在。

What would you say to them?

你会对他们说什么？

I would say even if I were an angel, I would still be a terrorist to them because it's the thing that they want.

我想说，即使我是天使，对他们来说我仍然是恐怖分子，因为这是他们想要的东西。

People don't want to take the responsibilities of their mistakes.

人们不想为自己的错误承担责任。

They want to put it on others.

他们想把它强加给别人。

It's like slaughtering a sheep, for example.

例如，这就像宰杀一只羊。

And when the sheep keeps shaking, and the blood's spilling all over the place, they would scream at the sheep and say, you are a bad sheep.

当羊不停地颤抖，血流得到处都是时，他们就会对着羊尖叫，说，你是一只坏羊。

Bad, bad sheep because your blood came on my clothes or my [UNINTELLIGIBLE].

坏羊，坏羊，因为你的血沾到了我的衣服或我的[无法辨认]上。

You know what I'm saying?

你知道我在说什么吗？

They would take you, maybe torture you, or maybe kill you, or put you under so much stress and circumstance and then they would say, you're a bad person because you've been through those things.

他们会带走你，也许会折磨你，或者可能会杀了你，或者让你承受如此大的压力和环境，然后他们会说，你是一个坏人，因为你经历过这些事情。

Why did you put me in those things in the first place?

你为什么一开始就把我放在那些事情上？

In the years Abdullah was gone, his parents moved to new house, a big house, with lots of rooms.

阿卜杜拉去世的那几年，他的父母搬进了新房子，一栋大房子，有很多房间。

But there was no bedroom for him.

但没有他的卧室。

His old clothes were gone.

他的旧衣服不见了。

They thought he would never come home.

他们以为他永远不会回家了。

He says it's like he's come back from the dead.

他说他就像死而复生一样。

Jack Hitt.

杰克·希特.

In the year since we first broadcast this show, Abdullah's gotten married.

自从我们第一次播出这个节目的那一年，阿卜杜拉就结婚了。

He has a six month old son.

他有一个六个月大的儿子。

He's entered business school in Bahrain.

他进入巴林商学院。

The other detainee that Jack talked to, Badr Zaman Badr is back in Pakistan.

杰克交谈过的另一名被拘留者巴德尔·扎曼·巴德尔 (Badr Zaman Badr) 已返回巴基斯坦。

He and his brother wrote a book in Pashto about what happened to them in detention in Kandahar and Guantanamo.

他和他的兄弟用普什图语写了一本书，讲述了他们在坎大哈和关塔那摩被拘留期间的遭遇。

Because of this, Badr's brother has been detained by the Pakistan government.

因此，巴德尔的弟弟被巴基斯坦政府拘留。

In this past year, about 200 detainees have been released.

去年，约有200名被拘留者被释放。

About 385 are still in Guantanamo.

大约 385 人仍被关押在关塔那摩。

38 of them are currently classified as NLEC, No Longer Enemy Combatants.

其中 38 人目前被归类为 NLEC（不再是敌方战斗人员）。

That is, they've been found to be completely innocent, but they're still in custody.

也就是说，他们被发现完全无辜，但仍被拘留。

In September 2006, after criticism that not many truly dangerous prisoners were at Guantanamo, 14 high-value al-Qaeda prisoners were moved to Guantanamo from CIA black sites.

2006年9月，在批评关塔那摩关押的真正危险囚犯并不多之后，14名基地组织高价值囚犯被从中央情报局黑点转移到关塔那摩。

And finally, just this week, the Justice Department filed petitions in federal court to try to curtail how often detainees can talk to their American lawyers, guys like Joe Margulies and the other attorneys that you heard this hour.

最后，就在本周，司法部向联邦法院提交了请愿书，试图限制被拘留者与他们的美国律师交谈的频率，这些律师包括乔·马古利斯（Joe Margulies）和您此刻听到的其他律师。

An affidavit by a Navy lawyer, commander Patrick McCarthy, complained among other things, that those lawyers were providing information to the news media about the detainees.

海军律师、指挥官帕特里克·麦卡锡在一份证词中抱怨说，这些律师正在向新闻媒体提供有关被拘留者的信息。

Well, our program was produced today by Sarah Koenig and myself with Alex Blumberg, Diane Cook, Jane Feltes, Amy O'Leary and Lisa Pollak.

好吧，我们今天的节目由莎拉·科尼格（Sarah Koenig）和我本人以及亚历克斯·布伦伯格（Alex Blumberg）、黛安·库克（Diane Cook）、简·费尔特斯（Jane Feltes）、艾米·奥利里（Amy O'Leary）和丽莎·波拉克（Lisa Pollak）共同制作。

Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.

我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。

Production help from Sam Hallgren, Seth Lind, Thea Chaloner, Tommy Andreas.

Sam Hallgren、Seth Lind、Thea Chaloner、Tommy Andreas 为制作提供帮助。

Music help from Jessica Hopper.

杰西卡·霍珀的音乐帮助。

This American Life is attributed by Public Radio International.

《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台报道。

WBEZ management oversight for our program by Mr. Torey Malatia.

Torey Malatia 先生对 WBEZ 项目进行管理监督。

You know what he always says about us.

你知道他总是怎么说我们。

If anybody actually met these guys, they'd be shocked.

如果有人真的见到这些人，一定会感到震惊。

I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of this American life.

我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多关于美国生活的故事。

This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。