314: It's Never Over - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #314 | January 2, 2015 314: It's Never Over Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 314 集 | 2015 年 1 月 2 日 314：一切都还没有结束 注意：《This American Life》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass It happened a long time ago and Jonathan didn't really think about it anymore.
序言 Ira Glass 这件事已经发生很久了，乔纳森并没有真正去想它。
It was over, as far as he was concerned, high school stuff.
对他来说，高中的事情已经结束了。
I was cello player.
我是大提琴手。
Every high school has the nerdy, soft kid who brings his cello to class, and that would have been me.
每所高中都有一个带着大提琴来上课的书呆子、温柔的孩子，那就是我。
Every high school also has bullies, and there was one guy who picked on Jonathan.
每所高中都有欺凌者，其中有一个人欺负乔纳森。
Jonathan remembers him as a glad-hander, somebody with lots of friends.
乔纳森记得他是一个乐于助人的人，有很多朋友。
And also--
还有——
A jock.
一名运动员。
He hung out in the weight room.
他在举重室里闲逛。
He squatted something over 500 pounds when he was in high school.
他在高中时深蹲过500多磅的东西。
I believe it was 510 pounds, a number that I remember almost 30 years later.
我记得是 510 磅，这个数字在 30 年后我仍然记得。
Because everybody knew this.
因为每个人都知道这一点。
I remember him, but I would be very surprised if he remembered me.
我记得他，但如果他记得我，我会感到非常惊讶。
he was the sort of person who would walk across the street to be unpleasant to somebody.
他是那种走过马路就会让别人不高兴的人。
Or, in my most notable instance, I was walking down the hall to history class, and he hip-checked me.
或者，在我最引人注目的例子中，我正沿着大厅走向历史课，他检查了我的臀部。
I was carrying my cello.
我带着我的大提琴。
I went sailing down the stairs with my cello.
我拿着大提琴飞快地走下楼梯。
You'd be surprised how many times a cello in its case can bounce.
您会惊讶地发现大提琴在其琴盒中可以弹跳多少次。
It was a lot of money in repairs.
修缮的时候花了很多钱。
He was laughing about it to his friends.
他对他的朋友们说起这件事大笑起来。
I suspect he forgot about it five minutes later.
我怀疑五分钟后他就忘记了。
I didn't.
我没有。
That guy was Jack Abramoff.
那个人就是杰克·阿布拉莫夫。
Ira Glass Jack Abramoff.
艾拉·格拉斯·杰克·阿布拉莫夫。
Remember him?
还记得他吗？
Big time lobbyist, pled guilty to multiple criminal felonies, now in prison, one of the poster boys in our congressional corruption scandals.
著名的游说者，承认多项刑事重罪，现已入狱，是我们国会腐败丑闻的典型人物之一。
Jack Abramoff.
杰克·阿布拉莫夫。
It's just beautiful.
这真是太漂亮了。
It's more than I could have wished for.
这超出了我的预期。
Well, in a certain sense, thanks to justice department prosecutors, finally someone gets revenge on him.
嗯，从某种意义上说，多亏了司法部检察官，终于有人对他进行了报复。
It's sort of sweet, isn't it?
有点甜，不是吗？
And to realize that it's the same person was sort of strange.
意识到这是同一个人有点奇怪。
It's like finding out years later that the person that punched you really hard in elementary school and made you cry ended up being the heavyweight champion of the world.
这就像多年后发现在小学时狠狠地打你并让你哭泣的人最终成为了世界重量级冠军一样。
Jonathan says that he had this feeling of, I knew it.
乔纳森说他有这种感觉，我知道。
I knew that guy was bad.
我就知道那家伙很坏。
And yes, it is petty to feel vindicated about that feeling so many years later.
是的，多年后仍觉得这种感觉是正确的，这真是太小气了。
And yes, there is no dignity to that feeling.
是的，这种感觉毫无尊严可言。
But there you have it.
但你已经拥有了。
Who wouldn't feel satisfied that he was getting his comeuppance?
谁会因为自己得到了报应而感到满足呢？
This is so typical.
这很典型。
We think the past is over.
我们认为过去已经结束了。
We're not thinking about the past, we're having no feelings about the past at all, and then a name pops up from years before, and suddenly we realize our old feelings are just sitting there, dormant, intact, recognizable, ready to be revived, like cavemen thawed from frozen arctic ices, as you know that often happens.
我们没有思考过去，我们对过去没有任何感觉，然后一个多年前的名字突然出现，突然我们意识到我们旧的感觉就坐在那里，休眠的，完整的，可识别的，准备好复活，就像穴居人从冰冻的北极冰层中解冻一样，正如你知道的，这种情况经常发生。
Jonathan Gold went on to become a newspaper writer, the restaurant critic for the LA Weekly .
乔纳森·戈尔德后来成为一名报纸作家、《洛杉矶周刊》的餐厅评论家。
He won a Pulitzer Prize this year, and he's going to his 30th high school reunion this weekend.
他今年获得了普利策奖，本周末他将参加他的第 30 届高中同学聚会。
When we tried to reach Jack Abramoff for a comment, his spokesman Harry [?
当我们试图联系杰克·阿布拉莫夫征求意见时，他的发言人哈里[？
Cohen ?] sent us this statement.
科恩？]向我们发送了这份声明。
"This story is not true.
“这个故事不是真的。
Mr. Abramoff does not know Mr. Gold.
阿布拉莫夫先生不认识戈尔德先生。
And he has no idea why Mr. Gold would fabricate such a story.
他也不明白为什么戈尔德先生会编造这样的故事。
There is no point in commenting further on something that never happened." Gold says he stands by his story.
对从未发生过的事情进行进一步评论是没有意义的。”戈尔德表示他坚持自己的说法。
Well, from WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life , distributed by Public Radio International.
好吧，这是芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
Today on our program, It's Never Over, stories of stuff that will not end.
今天我们的节目《永远不会结束》讲述了永远不会结束的故事。
Act One of our show today, Who Takes the Class Out of Class Reunion.
我们今天的节目第一幕，谁把班级带出了同学聚会。
Mr. Jon Ronson demonstrates what can possibly happen when you have a keen sense of injustice that will not end.
乔恩·罗森先生向我们展示了当你强烈地感受到不公正现象不会结束时可能会发生什么。
Act Two, Life Without Leanne, Larry Doyle and a love that will not end.
第二幕，没有莉安、拉里·道尔的生活和一段不会结束的爱。
Act Three, Deal of a Lifetime, a real estate transaction that will not end.
第三幕，一生一世的交易，一场不会结束的房地产交易。
Act Four, One Word: Timing, a joke that will not go away, and what can happen when you hold onto a joke for years before you can find a conversation where you can say that joke out loud.
第四幕，一个词：时机，一个不会消失的笑话，以及当你在找到一个可以大声说出这个笑话的对话之前保留一个笑话多年时会发生什么。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, Who Takes the Class Out of Class Reunion.
第一幕，谁把班级带出了同学聚会。
Well, Jon Ronson has been on our show a number of times.
乔恩·罗森 (Jon Ronson) 曾多次出现在我们的节目中。
He's written several books in England where he lives.
他在他居住的英国写了几本书。
He's on television doing these funny and also rather revealing documentary stories on Channel Four.
他在电视第四频道上播放这些有趣且颇具启发性的纪录片故事。
And you might think that, with all that success, he'd be feeling pretty good about things.
你可能会认为，有了这些成功，他就会感觉很好。
Well, you'd be wrong.
好吧，你错了。
I wake up in the middle of the night.
我半夜醒来。
I find I'm still angry with the boys who threw me into Roath Park Lake in Cardiff in the summer of 1983 when I was 16.
我发现我仍然对 1983 年夏天我 16 岁时把我扔进卡迪夫的罗斯公园湖的男孩们感到愤怒。
I log onto Friends Reunited.
我登录了《老友记》。
I find one of them, and email to inform him that I'm now a best selling author.
我找到了其中一位，并通过电子邮件通知他我现在是一名畅销书作家。
He emails me back.
他给我回了电子邮件。
He says that the reason why they did it was because I was a pain in the ass.
他说他们之所以这么做是因为我很讨厌。
He says the tenor of my email leads him to suspect that I haven't changed, and that throwing me in the lake again today would be an appropriate response.
他说我的电子邮件的主旨让他怀疑我没有改变，今天再次把我扔进湖里将是一个适当的回应。
I email him back to say I earn more money than he does.
我回邮件给他说我赚的钱比他多。
He hasn't yet emailed me back.
他还没有给我回邮件。
Touche.
图切。
I told my friend Graham Linehan about the time I was thrown in the lake, and it turns out he's got a story just like mine.
我告诉我的朋友格雷厄姆·莱恩汉（Graham Linehan）我被扔进湖里的那件事，结果他也有一个和我一样的故事。
Graham wrote Father Ted , which was Britain's biggest comedy show for 10 years.
格雷厄姆创作的《泰德神父》是英国近十年来最大的喜剧剧。
Graham's a big success, but he says he can't stop dwelling on a few weeks he spent in France one summer 20 years ago with a boy called Christoph.
格雷厄姆取得了巨大的成功，但他说他无法停止回忆 20 年前的一个夏天，他与一个名叫克里斯托夫的男孩在法国度过的几周时光。
Exchange student?
交换生？
Graham Linehan Yeah.
格雷厄姆·莱恩汉 是的。
So I went to his place for two weeks, got to know him, and then, just a gradual thing, just realized after a couple of days that he didn't like me at all.
所以我去了他家两周，了解了他，然后，只是渐进的事情，几天后才意识到他根本不喜欢我。
How did you first spot that?
你是怎么第一次发现这一点的？
Graham Linehan He was talking to his parents, and he was saying-- even though I couldn't understand French, he was always saying, quoi, quoi?
格雷厄姆·莱恩汉（Graham Linehan） 他正在和他的父母说话，他说——尽管我听不懂法语，他总是说，quoi，quoi？
I was like an Irish Manuel.
我就像一个爱尔兰曼努埃尔。
I was basically walking around going, quoi?
我基本上是到处走走，quoi？
every time anyone said.
每次有人说。
It was the only word I could understand.
这是我唯一能理解的词。
So I could sense he didn't really like me.
所以我能感觉到他并不真正喜欢我。
And he was too mature for me, so rather than placing me with, say, a nerd who loves Dungeons and Dragons , who I'd still be friends with now if I'd met him, they place me with a bloke who got a motorcycle for his birthday.
他对我来说太成熟了，所以他们没有把我安排在一个喜欢《龙与地下城》的书呆子身边，如果我遇见他，我现在仍然会和他成为朋友，而是把我安排在一个生日时收到摩托车的家伙身边。
And you began to get the sense that he didn't like you.
然后你开始感觉到他不喜欢你。
No, he didn't.
不，他没有。
You're constantly the subject of jokes, and I had a terrible time, really miserable.
你总是成为笑话的对象，我过得很糟糕，真的很痛苦。
And he was a horrible bully, and his friends all hated me, and I nearly had a fight with one of his friends in his school.
他是一个可怕的恶霸，他的朋友们都讨厌我，我差点和他学校里的一个朋友打架。
And then he was going to come over to Ireland, so I just thought, well, he'll be on my home ground, I'll have a bit of control.
然后他要去爱尔兰，所以我想，好吧，他会在我的主场，我会有一点控制权。
It won't be so bad this time.
这次不会那么糟糕了。
So we'll see what happens next.
所以我们看看接下来会发生什么。
So he came to Ireland, and he just had complete control over my life in Ireland as well.
所以他来到了爱尔兰，他也完全控制了我在爱尔兰的生活。
He was immediately friends with all the cool kids in my school, and he was just horrible.
他立刻就和我学校里所有很酷的孩子成为了朋友，但他实在是太糟糕了。
He beat me up in the swimming pool with his friend once.
有一次他和他的朋友在游泳池里打了我。
It was just a complete nightmare.
这简直就是一场噩梦。
This odd hell that childhood is, where you can be going through something in very close proximity to your parents, and they still can't help you.
童年就是一个奇怪的地狱，你可以在父母身边经历一些事情，但他们仍然无法帮助你。
You still can't really tell anyone about it.
你仍然不能真正告诉任何人这件事。
It's obsessed me, not just him, but generally that problem of childhood.
这让我着迷，不仅仅是他，而且整个童年的问题也让我着迷。
So you decided to murder him?
所以你决定谋杀他？
Graham Linehan Not that I would murder him, but if I chose to murder him, it would be the perfect murder, because every murder needs a motive, means, and opportunity, isn't that it?
Graham Linehan：并不是说我会谋杀他，但如果我选择谋杀他，那将是一次完美的谋杀，因为每一次谋杀都需要动机、手段和机会，不是吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Graham Linehan But it needs motive.
Graham Linehan 但这需要动机。
Now, if someone came, Magritte or whoever-- what was the name of that-- Maigret?
现在，如果有人来了，无论是马格利特还是其他人——那个人叫什么名字——梅格雷？
Maigret.
梅格雷特。
Graham Linehan Was that the name of the detective?
格雷厄姆·莱恩汉 那是侦探的名字吗？
The French detective?
法国侦探？
If he came and found Christoph dead at his front door with a big butcher's knife through his heart, he wouldn't have a clue, because I'm back in England or Ireland.
如果他来发现克里斯托夫死在前门，一把大屠刀穿过他的心脏，他不会有任何线索，因为我回到了英格兰或爱尔兰。
I just got on the plane, I went straight to his house.
我刚上飞机，就直奔他家。
I rang his doorbell.
我按响了他的门铃。
He opened the door.
他打开门。
There's a few flaws, I realize in this, but anyway.
我意识到这其中存在一些缺陷，但无论如何。
Exactly.
确切地。
And how do I recognize him, and all that sort of thing.
我怎么认出他，诸如此类的事情。
But he opens the door--
但他打开了门——
Exactly.
正是如此。
It doesn't really stand up.
实在站不起来。
But anyway, I stab him in the heart.
但无论如何，我还是刺进了他的心。
He dies.
他死了。
I get back in the taxi, which I've asked to wait a few doors away.
我坐上出租车回来，我要求出租车在几扇门外等候。
I go to the airport.
我去机场。
I go back home.
我回家去。
And then Maigret comes around, and where's the motive?
然后梅格雷出现了，动机是什么？
There's absolutely no motive.
完全没有动机。
He's just found someone killed in the middle of the afternoon, and everyone loved him, because he's probably turned into a nice person.
他刚刚发现有人在下午被杀，每个人都喜欢他，因为他可能变成了一个好人。
And because he beat you up 25 years ago?
因为25年前他打了你？
Well, yeah.
嗯，是的。
I have to say that this fantasy was particularly strong before I got successful.
不得不说，在我成功之前，这种幻想是特别强烈的。
As soon as Father Ted took off, I kind of dropped it.
特德神父一起飞，我就把它扔掉了。
The worst thing about it, though, is that he'll never know that all these things happened.
然而，最糟糕的是他永远不会知道所有这些事情都发生了。
Yeah.
是的。
Maybe instead of killing him, I should just learn how to say, I wrote Father Ted.
也许我不应该杀他，而应该学会怎么说，我写信给特德神父。
Get on a plane, go over, ring the doorbell, he comes to the door, [SPEAKING FRENCH].
上飞机，走过去，按门铃，他来到门口，[说法语]。
Run away.
逃跑。
To be honest with you, in the end, it's a mug's game, isn't it?
老实说，归根结底，这只是一场无聊的游戏，不是吗？
It's like answering critics, which I've done once or twice, very stupidly.
这就像回应批评家一样，我曾经做过一两次，非常愚蠢。
You can't, as I think Oscar Wilde said, roll around in the mud with them.
我想奥斯卡·王尔德说过，你不能和他们一起在泥里打滚。
And you can't roll around in the mud with your bullies.
而且你不能和你的恶霸一起在泥里打滚。
You can't let them know that you still have these things.
你不能让他们知道你还拥有这些东西。
But it was a real problem for me.
但这对我来说是一个真正的问题。
My sense of injustice was so keen that I just couldn't sleep sometimes.
我的不公平感是如此强烈，以至于有时我无法入睡。
But you know I've been invited to the school reunion, and they'll be there, the boys who threw me into Roath Park Lake.
但你知道我被邀请参加学校聚会，他们也会在那里，那些把我扔进罗斯公园湖的男孩们。
I'd bring a knife.
我会带一把刀。
Jon Ronson I've got a better idea than that.
乔恩·罗森（Jon Ronson）我有一个更好的主意。
They've asked me to donate something for the raffle.
他们要求我为抽奖活动捐赠一些东西。
So I'm going to put together a package called My Fantastic Life.
所以我打算整理一个名为“我的奇妙生活”的包。
And in the package will be my two best selling books, a note saying, "Dear Jon, sorry I missed you, hopefully we'll meet up soon, best, Nick Hornby," and a photograph of me with my arm around Zoe Ball.
包裹里有我的两本最畅销的书，一张纸条上写着：“亲爱的乔恩，对不起，我想念你，希望我们很快就能见面，最好的，尼克·霍恩比，”还有一张我搂着佐伊·鲍尔的照片。
What do you think?
你怎么认为？
Well, the Nick Hornby thing isn't great.
嗯，尼克·霍恩比的事情并不好。
That's the best I've got, I'm afraid.
恐怕这是我最好的了。
I can do no better.
我无能为力。
My six-year-old son says to me, were you thrown in a lake?
我六岁的儿子对我说，你被扔进湖里了吗？
Yes, I say, I was thrown in a lake when I was 16.
是的，我说，我 16 岁时被扔进湖里。
Why, he asks.
为什么，他问。
Because I was fat, I say.
因为我很胖，我说。
And there's two lessons to be learned from this.
我们可以从中吸取两个教训。
Don't be a bully and don't be fat.
不要欺负人，也不要变胖。
Will you show me what it looks like, he asks.
“你能告诉我它是什么样子吗？”他问道。
Me being fat or me being thrown in a lake?
是我胖了还是我被扔进湖里了？
Both, he says.
两者都有，他说。
I puff up my cheeks, waddle comically around, fall over and say splash.
我鼓起脸颊，滑稽地摇摇晃晃地走来走去，摔倒后说“扑通”。
Will you do it again in slow motion, he says.
“你能再慢动作一次吗？”他说。
So I do.
我也是这么做的。
This time I add some dialogue.
这次我添加了一些对话。
Please don't throw me in the lake.
请不要把我扔进湖里。
No. Splash.
不，飞溅。
Will you sound more scared, says Joel, and put a cushion under your shirt?
乔尔说，你会听起来更害怕吗？然后在你的衬衫下面放一个垫子？
And so I do.
我也是这么做的。
Please, I shout, waddling grotesquely, I might drown.
“拜托，”我大声喊道，摇摇晃晃地摇摇晃晃，我可能会被淹死。
Please no, no. You were so fat, says my son.
请不要，不要。 “你太胖了，”我儿子说。
I spend two hours putting together the package for the raffle, My Fantastic Life, but I couldn't decide what to include.
我花了两个小时准备抽奖活动“我的梦幻生活”的包装，但我无法决定要包括什么。
Should I add a copy of my bank statement, or would that be taking it too far?
我应该添加银行对账单的副本吗？或者这样做会太过分吗？
So I dump the idea, and instead I brought along Simon, my producer.
所以我放弃了这个想法，而是带上了我的制片人西蒙。
This is the spot where it happened.
这就是事情发生的地点。
This is exactly where.
这正是哪里。
We were walking down here.
我们正走在这里。
Nobody said anything.
没有人说什么。
They just all at once picked me up and threw me in, which leads me to suspect that it was preplanned.
他们一下子就把我抱起来扔了进去，这让我怀疑这是早有预谋的。
And then we all went back to one of their houses and watched Top of The Pops.
然后我们都回到他们的一所房子，观看了《流行音乐之巅》。
Should we go?
我们该走了吗？
It's just up there.
它就在那里。
I'm just wondering why six people that you could go and sit in a room and watch Top of The Pops with afterwards would want to conspire to throw you in the lake?
我只是想知道为什么你可以坐在一个房间里然后一起看《流行音乐之巅》的六个人会合谋把你扔进湖里？
What are you saying?
你在说什么？
Simon I'm not saying anything.
西蒙 我什么也没说。
I'm just asking why you think that they decided to throw you in the lake?
我只是问你为什么认为他们决定把你扔进湖里？
Yeah, rephrase it.
是的，重新表述一下。
Simon Why do you think that they threw you in the lake?
西蒙 你认为他们为什么把你扔进湖里？
What had happened?
发生了什么事？
What went wrong?
出了什么问题？
You're not rephrasing it, you're just putting a different tone on.
你没有改写它，你只是用了不同的语气。
You're putting some [?
你要放一些[?
claring ?] tone onto it.
澄清？] 语气。
It's still the same bloody question.
这仍然是同样的该死的问题。
I have no idea what you're talking about.
我不知道你在说什么。
No, there was no reason at all.
不，根本没有理由。
That's my answer.
这就是我的答案。
So six of your friends from school, for no reason at all, decided to throw you in the lake?
所以你的六个学校朋友无缘无故地决定把你扔进湖里？
Are you trying to rile me?
你想激怒我吗？
Simon I'm not trying to rile you.
西蒙，我并不是想激怒你。
I'm just trying to find out what happened.
我只是想知道发生了什么事。
I told you, they picked me up and threw me in the lake.
我告诉过你了，他们把我抱起来扔进湖里。
That's the action.
就是这个动作。
What's the reasoning behind it?
其背后的原因是什么？
I don't know.
我不知道。
I'm the one who was thrown in the lake.
我就是那个被扔进湖里的人。
I wasn't the one who planned it.
我不是策划这件事的人。
So basically you're saying it's an inexplicable act, and it happened for no real reason at all.
所以基本上你是说这是一种莫名其妙的行为，而且它的发生根本没有真正的原因。
Later I tell Simon that I can't help thinking that, had he been there, he would have thrown me in the lake.
后来我告诉西蒙，我不禁想到，如果他在那里，他会把我扔进湖里。
And Simon says, if I think that about him, then I don't know him very well.
西蒙说，如果我这么想他，那我就不太了解他了。
It was with trepidation that I approached the back room of the Discovery Pub on Lakeside Drive for the reunion of the Cardiff High School Class of 1985.
我怀着忐忑不安的心情来到湖滨大道 Discovery Pub 的后屋，参加卡迪夫高中 1985 届同学的聚会。
I had a mental picture of a room full of thugs just jumping on me the minute I walked in, but instead I bumped into Sarah Thomas, who'd been, without any doubt, Cardiff High's most attractive enigma from the age of 14 upwards.
我的脑海里浮现出一屋子的暴徒在我走进去的那一刻就向我扑来，但我却撞上了莎拉·托马斯，毫无疑问，从 14 岁起，她一直是卡迪夫高中最有吸引力的谜团。
20 years.
20年。
Sarah Thomas I'm very well, Ronson.
莎拉·托马斯 我很好，罗森。
Nervous?
紧张的？
Sarah Thomas Stressed.
莎拉·托马斯强调。
I'm a lawyer.
我是一名律师。
I shouldn't be stressed, but I am.
我不应该有压力，但我确实有压力。
Does it feel like the last 20 years of your life just haven't happened?
是不是感觉生命中的最后20年根本就没有发生过？
No, you haven't.
不，你没有。
Sarah Thomas You look better.
莎拉·托马斯 你看起来好多了。
Yeah, I've aged well.
是的，我已经老了。
Why were you nervous?
你为什么紧张？
The people I was going to see.
我要见的人。
And I hoped I was going to see you.
我希望能见到你。
That was a big thing.
那是一件大事。
So you see, it wasn't all bad, because I really wanted to see you again.
所以你看，这并不全是坏事，因为我真的很想再次见到你。
Jon.
乔恩.
John Audrey.
约翰·奥黛丽.
Jon Ronson Jonathan Audrey.
乔恩·罗森乔纳森·奥黛丽。
How are you, sweetie?
你好吗，亲爱的？
Jon Ronson That was Jonathan Audrey.
乔恩·罗森 那是乔纳森·奥黛丽。
I remember nothing about him except for his name.
除了他的名字之外，我对他一无所知。
Yeah.
是的。
He hasn't changed.
他没有改变。
Jon Ronson No, he hasn't.
乔恩·罗森：不，他没有。
Still cheeky.
还是厚脸皮的。
Something unexpected happens at the reunion.
重聚时发生了一些意想不到的事情。
I have a lovely time.
我度过了一段美好的时光。
What I don't remember, it turns out, are the good times.
事实证明，我不记得的是美好时光。
Really, I keep saying, we did that?
真的，我一直说，我们做到了？
It's bizarre you don't remember that, people keep replying.
奇怪的是你不记得了，人们一直在回复。
It's as if I've scrubbed from my memory anything that contradicts my image of school as the worst days of my life.
就好像我已经从记忆中抹去了所有与我对学校的印象相矛盾的东西，学校是我一生中最糟糕的日子。
Do you think I've given myself false memories?
你认为我给了自己错误的记忆吗？
Yeah, I think you-- Jon Ronson You think things weren't as bad?
是的，我认为你——乔恩·罗森（Jon Ronson）你认为事情没有那么糟糕吗？
They weren't as bad.
他们并没有那么糟糕。
You've never talked about my house, and I think you had a nice time at my house.
你从来没有谈论过我的房子，我想你在我家度过了一段愉快的时光。
Yeah, I did.
是的，我做到了。
Very much so.
非常如此。
And then Dai Lewis, the man I thought had thrown me in the lake, comes over.
然后戴·刘易斯（Dai Lewis）过来了，我以为那个人把我扔进了湖里。
He says I've got it all wrong, very wrong.
他说我完全错了，非常错。
I remember it as a very good time, school.
我记得那是一段非常美好的时光，学校。
What do you remember of the day of the lake incident?
你还记得湖事件发生的那天吗？
Just good time.
只是好时光。
Jon Ronson That we all went down to the lake, and what?
乔恩·罗森 我们都去了湖边，然后呢？
We all jumped in together?
我们都一起跳进去了？
Yeah.
是的。
Jon Ronson That's how you remember it?
乔恩·罗森 你就是这么记得的？
Do you?
你？
Jon Ronson No, I remember being picked up and thrown.
乔恩·罗森 不，我记得被抱起来然后扔了。
Is that really how you remember it?
你真的记得这样吗？
Do you remember anyone else going in the lake?
你还记得还有其他人去湖里吗？
Did we all go in the lake?
我们都去湖里了吗？
Dai Lewis Everyone.
戴刘易斯大家好。
Everyone?
每个人？
Like who?
像谁？
Dai Lewis Garret, Dick.
戴·刘易斯·加勒特，迪克。
What, we all jumped in, in a kind of joyous, youthful frenzy?
什么，我们都跳进去了，带着一种欢乐、青春的狂热？
I would say so.
我会这么说。
Jon Ronson What do you remember of being in the lake?
乔恩·罗森（Jon Ronson） 你在湖里记得什么？
It was really disgusting.
实在是太恶心了。
But it washed off.
但它被洗掉了。
Was there any pushing going on at all?
到底有没有什么推动的事情发生？
Did we all jump in of our own free will?
我们都是自愿跳进去的吗？
I don't think there was any pushing.
我不认为有任何推动。
Do you really think there was pushing?
你真的认为有人在推动吗？
Jon, really, honestly?
乔恩，真的吗？说实话？
The way I remember it is that we were all walking along, and then--
我记得我们一起走，然后——
Because obviously, this is a really big thing in your life.
因为显然，这是你生活中的一件大事。
No, it's not.
不，不是。
Dai Lewis No, it is.
戴刘易斯 不，是的。
It obviously is.
显然是的。
Go on, tell me.
继续，告诉我。
And then some look passed between you, and you picked me up and just threw me in.
然后你们之间交换了眼神，然后你把我抱了起来，然后把我扔了进去。
How could I have picked you up?
我怎么能接你呢？
You were massive.
你是巨大的。
There's no way.
没办法啊
Jon, come on.
乔恩，来吧。
You could've picked me up.
你本可以来接我的。
Pregnant silence.
怀孕的沉默。
When you remember our time together, what do you remember?
当你回忆起我们在一起的时光时，你会想起什么？
I remember it as being really good.
我记得它真的很好。
I remember you, John Morris, Garrett, Dick as a really good time.
我记得你们、约翰·莫里斯、加勒特、迪克一起度过了一段非常美好的时光。
No other thoughts.
没有其他想法。
Do you look back on it as being the happiest days of your life, which is what people say about their school days?
你是否认为这是你一生中最快乐的日子，就像人们所说的学生时代一样？
No, I do.
不，我愿意。
Don't you?
不是吗？
Jon Ronson Really the happiest days of your life?
Jon Ronson 真的是你一生中最快乐的日子吗？
Apart from my kids being born?
除了我的孩子出生之外？
Yes.
是的。
You?
你？
No, for me it was like the saddest days of my life.
不，对我来说，这就像我一生中最悲伤的日子。
Oh, that's really bad.
哦，那真是太糟糕了。
That's really bad.
那真的很糟糕。
Well, I've had very happy days since then.
嗯，从那以后我度过了非常快乐的日子。
You were one of the group.
你是这群人中的一员。
There was never any bullying.
从来没有发生过任何欺凌行为。
If you say differently, I think you're fantasizing.
如果你说不同的话，我认为你是在幻想。
You really are.
你确实是。
I'm beginning to wonder whether I should be trusting my memory.
我开始怀疑我是否应该相信自己的记忆。
Do I get a hug, Dai?
我可以拥抱一下吗，戴？
Yeah.
是的。
Don't stress about it.
不要对此有压力。
There was nothing.
什么也没有。
I was in the lake, too.
我当时也在湖里。
And so I go back inside to the disco, amazed at the fragility of memory, and startled that I've spent so long being angry about something that probably never happened.
于是我回到迪斯科舞厅，对记忆的脆弱感到惊讶，并惊讶于我花了这么长时间对可能从未发生过的事情感到愤怒。
And Simon, my producer, stays outside.
我的制作人西蒙则留在外面。
All right, well, Jon's not here now, so I can tell you the truth.
好吧，乔恩现在不在，所以我可以告诉你真相。
I remember the evening vividly.
我清楚地记得那个晚上。
I threw him in the lake-- I was 15-- because he was being an ass.
我把他扔进湖里——当时我 15 岁——因为他是个混蛋。
And then somebody else threw his scarf in afterwards, and he had to climb back in and get it.
然后其他人把他的围巾扔了进去，他不得不爬回去拿。
The humiliation of that, I'm not entirely surprised he's still having sleepless nights.
令人羞辱的是，我并不完全惊讶他仍然失眠。
But why did you do it?
但你为什么这么做呢？
Paul Because I was 15 and because he was an ass.
保罗因为我才 15 岁，而且因为他是个混蛋。
That's all the reason I can remember.
这就是我能记得的全部原因。
In a very similar, though more sort of pubescent way, that he is still an ass.
以一种非常相似的方式，尽管更像是青春期的方式，他仍然是个混蛋。
What do you think Dai is saying that you all went in the lake?
你们觉得戴说的你们都进湖里是什么意思？
Is he falsely remembering it, do you think?
你认为他是记错了吗？
Because you seem to remember it very clearly.
因为你好像记得很清楚。
I do remember that Dai was there, but I think Dai's memories have been clouded over the years.
我确实记得戴在那里，但我想戴的记忆多年来已经被蒙蔽了。
Why it seems to have festered over the past 20-something years for Jon, I have no idea, but it obviously has.
我不知道为什么乔恩的症状在过去二十多年里变得越来越严重，但显然确实如此。
You want the truth on this?
你想知道这件事的真相吗？
I think he was somebody who desperately wanted to be popular.
我认为他是一个非常想受欢迎的人。
And because of that desperation, he wasn't.
但由于这种绝望，他没有。
That was Paul.
那是保罗。
And I'd just like to point out, I make more money than him.
我只想指出，我比他赚更多的钱。
Jon Ronson, he's the author of the book The Men Who Stare At Goats and other books.
乔恩·罗森（Jon Ronson）是《盯着山羊的人》和其他书籍的作者。
A version of this story originally appeared on a radio show that he's been hosting lately for BBC Radio 4, called Jon Ronson On.
这个故事的一个版本最初出现在他最近为 BBC Radio 4 主持的一档名为 Jon Ronson On 的广播节目中。
[MUSIC - "DON'T LET THE SUN GO DOWN ON YOUR GRIEVANCE" BY DANIEL JOHNSTON]
[音乐 - 丹尼尔·约翰斯顿的《不要让太阳因你的不满而落下》]
Act Two, Life Without Leanne.
第二幕，没有莉安的生活。
Our program today is about things that never seem to end.
我们今天的节目是关于似乎永远不会结束的事情。
And I think there are certain feelings that, at some point or another, all of us have felt and been unable to shake.
我认为，在某些时候，我们所有人都曾有过某些感受，但无法摆脱。
These feelings stick around for months, they stick around for years, and there are some people in this situation who find it useful to talk about it.
这些感觉会持续数月，甚至数年，而有些人在这种情况下发现谈论它很有用。
Good evening, and welcome to Life Without Leanne.
晚上好，欢迎收看《没有莉安的生活》。
I'm Larry, and this is day 683.
我是拉里，今天是第 683 天。
That's nearly 98 weeks since Leanne and I broke up.
我和 Leanne 分手已经快 98 周了。
We're going to start out, as always, with our Leanne Watcher of the week.
我们将一如既往地从本周的 Leanne 观察者开始。
My kudos go out to Mike of Evanston, Illinois, who called in with this eloquent report on a brief encounter he had with Leanne on April 28th.
我向来自伊利诺伊州埃文斯顿的迈克表示敬意，他打来电话，雄辩地报告了 4 月 28 日他与 Leanne 的短暂会面。
Hey Larry, I love the show.
嘿拉里，我喜欢这个节目。
Listen, I ran into Leanne last week.
听着，我上周遇到了莉安。
She lost some weight, but she's still beautiful, you know.
她瘦了一些，但她仍然很漂亮，你知道。
She said she's been exercising, taking classes, doing this, doing that.
她说她一直在锻炼、上课、做这个、做那个。
But it appeared to me that she was struggling to fill some void.
但在我看来，她正在努力填补一些空白。
Your name didn't come up.
你的名字没有出现。
But it wasn't so much what she said as what she didn't say.
但与其说她说了些什么，不如说她没说了什么。
Thanks, Mike.
谢谢，迈克。
I think we all know what she was trying to say.
我想我们都知道她想说什么。
I wish it all could be such good news, but unfortunately, Operation: Terrible Mistake has not been the success that we anticipated.
我希望这一切都是这样的好消息，但不幸的是，《行动：可怕的错误》并没有取得我们预期的成功。
And I'm afraid we may have to rethink our strategy.
恐怕我们可能不得不重新考虑我们的策略。
As you may recall from our April 20th program, the objectives of Operation: Terrible Mistake were to, one, apply societal pressure; two, foster emotional uncertainty; three, precipitate reevaluation; and ideally, four, achieve reconciliation.
您可能还记得我们 4 月 20 日的节目，“可怕的错误行动”的目标是，一是施加社会压力；二是施加压力。二、培养情绪的不确定性；三、沉淀再评价；理想情况下，四是实现和解。
When I brought up this plan, I suggested the following conversation starter when you would run into Leanne on the street or something.
当我提出这个计划时，当你在街上遇到 Leanne 之类的时候，我建议使用以下对话开头。
I suggested that you say something like, Leanne, I was so sorry to hear about you and Larry.
我建议你这样说，Leanne，听到你和 Larry 的事我很遗憾。
You make such a wonderful couple, so I don't mind telling you, I think you are making a terrible mistake.
你们是一对如此美妙的情侣，所以我不介意告诉你，我认为你犯了一个可怕的错误。
This is my own personal opinion on the matter.
这是我个人对此事的看法。
Now, unfortunately, a number of well-meaning individuals took this suggestion rather more literally than I intended, and repeated it verbatim to Leanne.
现在，不幸的是，一些善意的人比我本意更从字面上理解了这个建议，并逐字向 Leanne 重复了它。
And some of it sounds like you were practicing it, and it created an effect other than the one I desired.
有些听起来像是你在练习，但它产生的效果与我想要的不同。
I've now received word through an intermediary that Leanne requests that I quote, "Call off the zombies", unquote.
我现在通过中间人收到消息，Leanne 要求我引用“叫走僵尸”，不要引用。
We will honor her wishes as always, but I must emphasize I cannot be held responsible for the behavior of individuals acting on their own initiative.
我们将一如既往地尊重她的意愿，但我必须强调，我不能对个人主动行动的行为负责。
I've got the minutes of the most recent Leanne Anonymous meeting, which I'll read to you now.
我有最近一次 Leanne 匿名会议的记录，我现在将其读给你们听。
It was our first meeting at Gatsby's.
这是我们第一次在盖茨比家见面。
The bartender, Mark, gracefully accommodated us by closing off the back room and supplying extra folding chairs.
调酒师马克优雅地接待了我们，关闭了后面的房间并提供了额外的折叠椅。
The meeting started out, we ordered a first round, and it proceeded immediately to old business: the continuing debate on Leanne's eyes, and whether they are turbulent sea green, or sand-flecked moon blue.
会议开始了，我们订了第一轮，然后立即开始老事：关于莉安的眼睛的持续争论，以及它们是汹涌的海绿色，还是布满沙粒的月蓝色。
They are, by the way, sand-flecked moon blue.
顺便说一句，它们是布满沙粒的月光蓝色。
And conversation turned naturally to the rest of Leanne, her quirky, perky nose, her funny, sunny smile, the perfect curve of her neck, her soft shoulders, and so on, until petty jealousies precluded further discussion.
谈话自然而然地转向了莉安的其他部分，她古怪而活泼的鼻子，她有趣而阳光的微笑，她脖子的完美曲线，她柔软的肩膀等等，直到小小的嫉妒阻止了进一步的讨论。
Soon thereafter, we took a break to order some refreshments, and then it was time to welcome new members.
不久之后，我们休息了一下，点了一些茶点，然后就到了欢迎新成员的时候了。
This stubby and not particularly attractive man, who had been spotted with Leanne as recently as mid-January, stood up, and he said, my name is Harry, and I love Leanne.
这个粗短、不是特别有魅力的男人在一月中旬被发现和莉安在一起，他站起来说，我叫哈利，我爱莉安。
Harry then related his long, sad tale, the details of which we are all too familiar with.
然后哈利讲述了他漫长而悲伤的故事，其中的细节我们都非常熟悉。
He ended with that same old refrain, she met this guy, she says she's deliriously happy.
他以同样的老套结束，她遇到了这个人，她说她非常高兴。
That prompted Gunther, who really doesn't speak very often, to speak up.
这促使平时不常说话的冈瑟站出来说话。
She's deliriously happy, eh?
她高兴极了，是吗？
he said, staring into his beer, that guy is doomed.
他盯着啤酒说，那家伙就完蛋了。
Those of us who could still laugh about it did, and we voted to adjourn.
我们这些还能笑的人确实笑了，我们投票决定休会。
[MUSIC PLAYING] We all know what that music means.
[音乐播放] 我们都知道音乐的含义。
It's time for this week's Leanne Challenge.
是时候进行本周的 Leanne 挑战了。
Leanne is what she eats, but how well do you know what she eats?
Leanne就是她吃的东西，但是你对她吃的东西了解多少呢？
Everybody knows Leanne likes horseradish on her hamburgers, but what kind of horseradish?
大家都知道 Leanne 喜欢在汉堡包中加入辣根，但是什么样的辣根呢？
OK, here's a hint.
好的，这是一个提示。
She received a case of it last Christmas.
去年圣诞节她收到了一箱。
The answer to last week's challenge was, you guessed it, from left to right.
你猜对了，上周挑战的答案是从左到右。
Now, I know a lot of people thought there was a trick to that question, but there wasn't.
现在，我知道很多人认为这个问题有一个技巧，但事实并非如此。
[MUSIC - "PLEASE MR. POSTMAN" BY THE MARVELETTES]
[音乐 - MARVELETTES 的“请邮递员先生”]
It's time for the mail.
又到了寄邮件的时间了
The mail ran heavy this week with entries to the candid Leanne photo contest.
本周，Leanne 偷拍摄影大赛的参赛作品收到了大量邮件。
I think I need to remind everybody that the rules clearly state that Leanne must be the only person shown in the photograph.
我想我需要提醒大家，规则明确规定Leanne必须是照片中唯一出现的人。
In case any of you want to resubmit, I'm going to extend the deadline for two weeks until May 23rd.
如果你们中有人想重新提交，我将把截止日期延长两周，直到 5 月 23 日。
Please remember entries can't be returned.
请记住，参赛作品无法退回。
First letter, one of our far flung correspondents, Reggie of Buffalo Grove, Illinois, who writes in, and I think this is very interesting.
第一封信是我们的一位远方通讯员、来自伊利诺伊州布法罗格罗夫的雷吉写的，我认为这非常有趣。
We've gotten a number of letters like this.
我们已经收到好几封这样的来信了。
He writes, "Larry, isn't it time you got on with your life?
他写道：“拉里，你现在不是该继续生活了吗？
It's been nearly two years since Leanne broke up with you--" actually, we're a couple weeks short of that, but anyway, he says "it's been actually two years since Leanne broke up with you, and I hate to tell you, pal, but it's over.
莉安和你分手已经快两年了——”事实上，我们还差几个星期，但无论如何，他说“莉安和你分手实际上已经两年了，我不想告诉你，朋友，但一切都结束了。
O-V-E-R.
O-V-E-R。
But listen," he says, "there are a lot of other chicks in the sea, my friend, and they are yours for the picking.
但是听着，”他说，“海里还有很多其他的小鸡，我的朋友，它们是你可以挑选的。
Go for it."
去吧。”
Well, Reggie, I don't know quite how to answer that.
好吧，雷吉，我不太知道如何回答这个问题。
It's difficult to determine exactly what it is you're driving at.
很难准确地确定您的驾驶目的是什么。
I mean, I'm afraid I don't share your bitter perspective, and I don't really get all of your playground aphorisms, but please understand when I suggest this: you know nothing about love.
我的意思是，恐怕我不同意你的痛苦观点，我也不太明白你所有的操场格言，但请理解我的建议：你对爱一无所知。
But thanks for the letter, Reg.
但谢谢你的来信，Reg。
Your Larry Loves Leanne t-shirt is in the mail.
您的 Larry Loves Leanne T 恤已邮寄。
That's it for Life Without Leanne this week, and let's hope it's the last week.
这就是《没有莉安的生活》本周的内容，希望这是最后一周。
I'm Larry, and I love Leanne.
我是拉里，我爱莉安。
Larry Doyle wishes it known that he now loves Becky.
拉里·多伊尔希望人们知道他现在爱贝基。
They have three kids together.
他们有三个孩子。
[MUSIC - "IT'S ALWAYS YOU" BY CHET BAKER]
[音乐 - 切特·贝克的《永远是你》]
Coming up, an inhuman situation made human through sheer force of politeness.
即将到来的，一种不人道的情况通过纯粹的礼貌力量变得人性化。
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life, I'm Ira Glass.
这就是美国生活，我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose a theme, and bring you a variety of different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，我们的节目每周都会选择一个主题，并为您带来有关该主题的各种不同类型的故事。
Today's program, It's Never Over, stories of feelings and situations that will not end, no matter what it is that we want.
今天的节目《永远不会结束》讲述了无论我们想要什么，都不会结束的感受和情况的故事。
Act Three, Deal of a Lifetime.
第三幕，一生的交易。
The beauty of most business transactions is that they are cut and dried.
大多数商业交易的美妙之处在于它们都是经过切割和干燥的。
No emotion, you do this, I do that.
没有感情，你做这个，我做那个。
Here's the money, goodbye.
这是钱，再见。
Especially goodbye.
特别是再见。
They are easy that way.
这样他们就很容易了。
Sarah Koenig tells this story of a business transaction that everyone involved thought was going to be quick and simple, that has turned out to actually be kind of never-ending.
莎拉·科尼格（Sarah Koenig）讲述了一个商业交易的故事，每个参与其中的人都认为交易会快速而简单，但事实证明这实际上是永无止境的。
It was a real estate deal in Sag Harbor, New York.
这是纽约萨格港的一笔房地产交易。
Sag Harbor is one of those places that used to be a fishing village, but now it's an artsy, tourist town in the Hamptons, super expensive.
萨格港是曾经是一个渔村的地方之一，但现在它是汉普顿的一个充满艺术气息的旅游小镇，价格超级昂贵。
Here's Sarah.
这是莎拉。
My stepsister, Rue, wanted a house in Sag Harbor, New York, badly, and she couldn't really afford it.
我的继姐妹鲁非常想要在纽约萨格港买一套房子，但她却买不起。
Then one day, she found out about a lovely house on Main Street listed for two prices.
然后有一天，她发现主街上一栋可爱的房子挂牌价有两种。
The more expensive listing included a house, a shed, and a little garden.
更昂贵的清单包括一栋房子、一个棚屋和一个小花园。
The cheaper listing included a house, a shed, a little garden, and Ned.
更便宜的清单包括一栋房子、一个棚子、一个小花园和内德。
Well, the way I identify Ned is my man.
嗯，我认为内德是我的男人。
People laugh at this, but he really is mine.
人们嘲笑这一点，但他确实是我的。
He's the man that came with the house.
他是和房子一起来的人。
The deal was this: Rue moved into her dream house at $110,000 discount.
交易是这样的：Rue 以 11 万美元的折扣搬进了她梦想的房子。
The catch was Ned, an elderly, sick man, who sold the house cheap on one condition, that he never have to move out.
问题是内德，一位年老体弱的老人，他低价卖掉了房子，条件是他永远不必搬走。
Rue lives in the upstairs apartment.
鲁住在楼上的公寓里。
Ned lives in the more spacious downstairs, where he will stay until he dies.
内德住在楼下更宽敞的地方，他将住在那里直到去世。
While Ned is working in his little downtown shop which sells classical music CDs, Rue gives us a tour.
当内德（Ned）在他位于市中心的小商店里工作时，该商店出售古典音乐 CD，鲁（Rue）带我们参观了。
We're coming into Ned's portion of the house, which is where he's lived for, I think, maybe 20 years, I'm not sure.
我们要进入内德住的那部分房子，我想他在那里住了大概 20 年，我不确定。
Which is good for him too, because he's older, it's all on street level, he doesn't have to climb any stairs.
这对他也有好处，因为他年纪大了，一切都在街道上，他不需要爬任何楼梯。
And also, he's lost a lot of his sight, which is one reason why he really didn't want to leave this house.
而且，他已经严重失明，这也是他不想离开这个房子的原因之一。
Unlke the mansions across the street, this house isn't big or fancy.
与街对面的豪宅不同，这栋房子并不大也不豪华。
It was built perhaps 100 years ago for the workers in the local watch case factory.
它大约是 100 年前为当地表壳工厂的工人建造的。
When she bought it, Rue was 36 and single.
当 Rue 买下这栋房子时，她 36 岁，还是单身。
The idea that she could inhabit only two rooms of her new house didn't seem problematic.
她只能住在新房子的两个房间的想法似乎没有问题。
What she did not foresee was that, in the space of a year, she would acquire a puppy, a husband, and a baby.
她没想到的是，一年之内，她就拥有了一只小狗、一个丈夫和一个孩子。
She tries to focus on the deal's advantages.
她试图把重点放在这笔交易的优势上。
The cramped quarters have taught her to resolve fights with her husband rather than flee them, she says.
她说，狭窄的宿舍教会她如何解决与丈夫的争吵，而不是逃离。
Still, she can't deny that the population boom in her apartment has made Ned's downstairs look especially attractive.
尽管如此，她还是不能否认，她公寓里的人口激增让内德的楼下看起来特别有吸引力。
And this is the living room.
这是客厅。
Sarah Koenig Is this where you would have the bedroom if you were down here?
莎拉·科尼格 如果你在这儿的话，这就是你的卧室吗？
Would you use that as the master bedroom?
你会用它作为主卧室吗？
Well, actually, I think I would change the whole back of the house if I were down here.
好吧，实际上，我想如果我在这儿的话，我会改变整个房子的后面。
As you might guess, I've had a few imaginings of what I would like to do with the space down here, but not too many.
正如你可能猜到的，我对我想用这里的空间做什么有一些想象，但不是太多。
I don't like to get carried away with myself prematurely.
我不喜欢过早地得意忘形。
You know, terrible things to think of.
你知道，想到一些可怕的事情。
Why are they terrible things to think of?
为什么它们是可怕的事情？
Well, I don't know.
嗯，我不知道。
There's this vulture-like aspect of it when you start talking about what you'd like to do.
当你开始谈论你想做的事情时，就会有一种秃鹰般的感觉。
I mean, there's no getting around that.
我的意思是，这是无法回避的。
How can I talk about what I'd like to do?
我该如何谈论我想做的事情？
I'd never get to do it until he's moved on from this world.
在他离开这个世界之前我永远不会这么做。
Well, we are now standing in the second parlor of this house on Main Street in Sag Harbor, and I've lived here since 1985.
嗯，我们现在站在萨格港主街这栋房子的第二个客厅里，我从 1985 年起就住在这里。
I sold it to Rue, I think, in '95.
我想是在 95 年我把它卖给了 Rue。
And I never expected to be alive this long.
而且我从来没想过自己能活这么久。
Poor Rue.
可怜的鲁。
To Ned, who is 78, selling his house from under himself was an ingenious way to stay in a place he considers home.
对于 78 岁的内德来说，出售自己的房子是留在他认为的家的地方的巧妙方法。
A pianist who made his living as an editor, Ned has spent his life getting money and then spending it all.
内德是一位钢琴家，以编辑为生，他一生都在赚钱，然后花光了所有的钱。
By the time he put his house on the market, he was sick and broke.
当他把房子挂牌出售时，他已病重且身无分文。
He didn't have the will to move.
他没有动的意愿。
The Main Street house is the only one he's ever owned.
主街的房子是他唯一拥有的一栋房子。
It's crammed with antiques and oriental rugs, and reminders of his elegant New Orleans upbringing.
里面摆满了古董和东方地毯，让人想起他在新奥尔良优雅的成长经历。
A large romantic portrait of him from 1951 hangs in the parlor.
客厅里挂着一幅他 1951 年拍摄的大幅浪漫肖像。
In the kitchen is a framed photograph of Stillwood, his grandmother's plantation house.
厨房里挂着一张他祖母的种植园斯蒂尔伍德的相框。
The little silver coffee set, this set right here, a coffee pot, a cream pitcher, and a sugar pitcher, and a tray, my mother said was from the Civil War down in New Orleans, and had been buried in the garden to keep General Butler, Spoon Butler they called him, to keep it from him.
这套银色的小咖啡具，就在这里，一个咖啡壶、一个奶油罐、一个糖罐和一个托盘，我母亲说是新奥尔良内战时期的，被埋在花园里，以防止巴特勒将军，他们称他为勺子巴特勒，以免他发现。
And I said, oh, mother, on the bottom of each piece in here it says 1893.
我说，哦，妈妈，这里每件作品的底部都写着 1893 年。
And she said, well, that's a stock number.
她说，好吧，这是一个库存编号。
In reality, my mother was not to be moved by this.
事实上，我的母亲对此并不感到感动。
And when I took the tray to a silversmith in New York to have it redone, he said, has this tray ever been buried in the ground?
当我把托盘拿到纽约的一位银匠那里重做时，他说，这个托盘曾经埋在地下吗？
Because there are all sorts of minerals in it that you only find in the ground.
因为它含有各种只能在地下找到的矿物质。
And I told him the story, he said, well, I bet your mother was right.
我告诉他这个故事，他说，好吧，我敢打赌你妈妈是对的。
Besides the house and its occasional ailments, a leaky skylight, an overflowing garbage can, what unites these two households is the anticipation of Ned's death.
除了房子和偶尔出现的小毛病、漏水的天窗、满溢的垃圾桶之外，将这两户人家联系在一起的是对内德死亡的期待。
Back when they first negotiated the deal, nobody thought he would still be alive today.
当他们第一次谈判这笔交易时，没有人认为他今天还活着。
He had had a heart attack, and he had had a history of heart disease.
他曾心脏病发作，并且有心脏病史。
I don't know how long a history.
不知道有多久的历史了。
He had had bypass surgery, and then, right after the closing, two weeks after the closing, he had another heart attack, and I talked to him from the hospital, and he sounded quite authentically sick, I have to say.
他做了搭桥手术，然后，就在交易结束后，交易结束两周后，他再次心脏病发作，我在医院和他交谈，我不得不说，他听起来确实病了。
And that was six years ago.
那是六年前的事了。
The trouble is I all of the sudden began to get better, and was going around full of energy, and I feel perfectly good most of the time.
麻烦的是我突然开始好起来，并且充满活力，大部分时间我感觉都很好。
I mean, I wake up and I embrace the day, so to speak.
我的意思是，可以这么说，我醒来并拥抱这一天。
Well, not the early day.
还好，不是早起。
The contract that binds Ned and Rue has led them to live together separately.
内德和鲁的合同使他们分居在一起。
They don't consider each other family, or even friends.
他们不认为彼此是家人，甚至朋友。
They don't invite each other over for dinner or drop by each other's apartment for a chat.
他们不会邀请对方共进晚餐，也不会去对方的公寓聊天。
When they do talk, their conversation is almost exclusively about the house.
当他们真正交谈时，他们的谈话几乎完全是关于房子的。
Like considerate roommates, they try not to offend each other with their habits.
就像体贴的室友一样，他们尽量不用自己的习惯冒犯对方。
I try to figure out when maybe nobody's upstairs, and that's when I play.
我试着弄清楚什么时候楼上可能没有人，那就是我玩耍的时候。
But sometimes, I realize they are upstairs, but then I go ahead and play anyhow.
但有时，我意识到他们在楼上，但我还是继续玩。
I'm sure it must bother them.
我相信这一定让他们很烦恼。
It would bother me.
这会让我很烦恼。
I've played the piano ever since I was nine years old, and very sad by the fact that I can no longer read music, because I've forgotten all those pieces that I learned all those years ago.
我从九岁起就开始弹钢琴，我很伤心我再也看不懂乐谱了，因为我已经忘记了多年前学过的所有乐曲。
But I now can sit down and simply play what comes out.
但我现在可以坐下来简单地玩一下出来的东西。
And oddly enough, sometimes what comes out is very, very nice.
奇怪的是，有时结果非常非常好。
It's always very sad.
总是很悲伤。
Oh, there have been moving evenings here, let me tell you, not a dry handkerchief in the house.
哦，让我告诉你，这里有过令人感动的夜晚，屋子里没有一块干手帕。
[PIANO PLAYING] Sarah Koenig In fact, Rue likes his playing.
[钢琴演奏] Sarah Koenig 事实上，Rue 很喜欢他的演奏。
She's never told him so, but she finds it soothing when the music drifts into her bedroom when she and the baby are taking a nap.
她从未告诉过他，但当她和孩子小睡时，音乐飘进她的卧室时，她觉得很舒缓。
And he has never told her that he finds her presence upstairs comforting.
他也从未告诉过她，他觉得她在楼上的存在让他感到安慰。
Still, there are complicated feelings on both sides.
尽管如此，双方的感情仍然很复杂。
I do like Ned.
我确实喜欢内德。
And I do feel kind of benevolent towards him, like I'm taking care of him sometimes.
我确实对他有一种仁慈的感觉，就像我有时会照顾他一样。
He just inspires that in people.
他只是激发了人们的这种想法。
But then, I'm not going to be terribly, terribly sorry when he dies.
但是，当他去世时，我不会感到非常非常遗憾。
I'm going to be sorry, but I'm also going to feel some relief.
我会感到抱歉，但我也会感到一些宽慰。
It's very strange.
这很奇怪。
Every time I ask him how you are doing, or take care, I always get this little twinge, because it's-- there's a twinge.
每次我问他你好吗，或者关心什么，我总是感到有点刺痛，因为它是——有一种刺痛。
A twinge of like, how are things going, or how are you doing, and it's just this wicked twinge comes over me, because I think that I'd a little bit like to hear, not so great.
一种刺痛感，比如，事情进展如何，或者你怎么样，这只是一种邪恶的刺痛感袭上我的心头，因为我想我有点想听，但不是那么好。
Do you think he's keyed in to this other conversation in your head?
你认为他参与了你脑海中的另一场对话吗？
I'm aware that the other side can't be all that thrilled that I'm still there.
我知道对方不会因为我还在那里而感到那么兴奋。
But she's been very nice to me.
但她对我很好。
And I think I've been very nice to her, I think.
我想我对她很好。
She obviously likes you.
她显然喜欢你。
Ned Well, I hope so, because I like her.
内德 好吧，我希望如此，因为我喜欢她。
Oh, I'm sure.
哦，我确定。
Sarah Koenig Does it make you feel guilty that you got better?
莎拉·科尼格（Sarah Koenig）的病情好转会让你感到内疚吗？
I don't think I feel guilty.
我不认为我感到内疚。
Maybe I do.
也许我会。
I'm just sorry that there is Rue sitting up there.
我只是很抱歉鲁坐在那儿。
She can't help but wait, biting her fingernails, probably.
她可能忍不住咬着指甲等待。
It sounds heartless put this way, and I guess it is.
这样说来，听起来很无情，我想确实如此。
When one begins picking it apart this way, it sounds really quite awful, as though I'm just squelching the life of a young couple, and now a brand-new life.
当人们开始以这种方式把它拆开时，听起来真的很糟糕，就好像我只是压制了一对年轻夫妇的生活，而现在却是一个全新的生活。
A lot of people would say that Rue looks like the heartless one in this arrangement, that there she is, waiting for a gentleman to die.
很多人会说，在这个安排中，鲁看起来像是一个无情的人，她就在那里，等待一位绅士的死亡。
That's why I think this kind of speculation is-- there's a certain falseness about it.
这就是为什么我认为这种猜测有一定的错误性。
That, yes, these thoughts flicker across every mind, mine as well as hers, I'm sure.
是的，这些想法在每个人的脑海中闪现，我的和她的，我确信。
But we're civilized beings, and I did what I thought I had to do, and I also think that she did what she felt she, maybe not had to do, but she did what she wanted to do.
但我们是文明人，我做了我认为我必须做的事，我也认为她做了她觉得她可能不需要做的事，但她做了她想做的事。
It's been very civilized, I think.
我认为这是非常文明的。
Rue and I are polite to each other.
鲁和我彼此都很有礼貌。
We don't let our feelings carry us into territory that is uncharted, and really will always be uncharted.
我们不会让我们的感觉带我们进入未知的领域，而且永远都是未知的领域。
What territory is that?
那是什么领土？
Ned The territory that she resents the fact that I'm still alive, and I resent the fact that she wants me to die.
奈德：她怨恨我还活着，我也怨恨她想让我死。
Better to be on the surface than not, because it's unanswerable.
表面上比不表面好，因为这是无法回答的。
And it's territory that I'm unable to explore.
这是我无法探索的领域。
And I don't think Rue is able to explore it to any benefit either.
我也不认为 Rue 能够利用它来获得任何好处。
It's supposed to be that total honesty is examining every scrap of the brain, our emotions and whatnot, is supposed to advance something, but it usually depresses rather than advances, I think.
完全的诚实应该是检查大脑的每一个碎片、我们的情绪等等，应该可以推进某些事情，但我认为它通常会令人沮丧而不是进步。
Because of his upbringing, Ned comes to this position naturally.
由于他的成长经历，内德自然而然地担任了这个职位。
But it's remarkable to me that my stepsister, a '70s wild child still known to say things like virtue is a load of crap, has come to understand the power of polite restraint.
但对我来说，值得注意的是，我的继姐妹，一个 70 年代的野孩子，仍然会说美德是一堆废话，她已经开始理解礼貌克制的力量。
In private, of course, away from Ned, she's unapologetic about what lurks beneath their relationship.
当然，私下里，远离内德，她对潜藏在他们关系之下的事情毫无歉意。
I don't feel so very guilty of that, because I don't feel anything that anybody else wouldn't feel.
我对此并不感到非常内疚，因为我没有感受到任何其他人不会感受到的东西。
I know how people are.
我知道人们是怎样的。
I'm not worse than anybody.
我并不比任何人差。
There's no person-- Mother Teresa could be living in this apartment if she were young, with a baby and a husband, and not have those thoughts.
如果特蕾莎修女还年轻，带着孩子和丈夫，住在这间公寓里，没有人不会有这些想法。
OK, I know that.
好的，我知道。
It seems to me that people waste an awful lot of time having pretenses about what they're supposed to feel, when what they really feel is what they really feel.
在我看来，人们浪费了很多时间来假装他们应该有什么感受，而他们真正的感受就是他们真正的感受。
Why not just-- you can't tell life to be something that it's not going to be, that it isn't.
为什么不呢——你不能告诉生活它不会是、它不是。
You can't argue with it.
你无法与之争论。
I don't mind being just a human being.
我不介意只是一个人。
That's fine.
没关系。
Both Rue and Ned moved into this house hoping it would be the last place where they'd ever unpack.
鲁和内德搬进了这所房子，希望这是他们最后一次打开行李的地方。
Ned got his wish, but if he survives for more than another year, a strong possibility, Rue will have to move out.
内德如愿以偿，但如果他还能再活一年以上，鲁很可能就不得不搬出去。
Her two small rooms will become too small once her baby starts to crawl.
一旦她的宝宝开始爬行，她的两个小房间就变得太小了。
For now, though, Rue's proud that the five souls living under her roof are getting along so well.
但现在，露很自豪生活在她屋檐下的五个灵魂相处得如此融洽。
And when Ned finally does die, she says she'll be sad.
当内德最终去世时，她说她会很难过。
Along with twinges of wickedness, it's a sadness she bought along with the house.
除了邪恶的刺痛之外，她还用房子买来了悲伤。
[PIANO PLAYING] Ned There you have my Rachmaninoff period.
[钢琴演奏] 内德 这是我的拉赫玛尼诺夫时期。
Sarah Koenig is one of the producers of our program, and also, incidentally, the host of Serial.
莎拉·科尼格（Sarah Koenig）是我们节目的制作人之一，顺便说一句，也是《Serial》节目的主持人。
We first broadcast this story fourteen years ago, and despite everybody's predictions, Ned and Rue continued to live together in that house for another nine years.
我们十四年前第一次播出这个故事，尽管每个人都预测，内德和鲁继续在那所房子里一起生活了九年。
They became good friends, they stayed close, until Ned died, finally, in 2009.
他们成为了好朋友，一直保持着亲密的关系，直到 Ned 最终于 2009 年去世。
Act Four, One Word: Timing.
第四幕，一个字：时机。
This is the story of a joke that would not die.
这是一个不会死的笑话的故事。
Tami Sagher had just gotten this job that she really wanted, and she was in that position where she was working with people who she really, really respected, and she wanted them to like her.
塔米·萨格尔刚刚得到了她真正想要的这份工作，她所处的位置是与她真正非常尊重的人一起工作，她希望他们喜欢她。
And this job was something that she had never done before.
而这份工作，是她以前从未做过的。
It was to write a script for a television show, to write a situation comedy.
就是写一个电视节目的剧本，写一部情景喜剧。
And she had finished her first draft, and they had this meeting to go through the draft with her and tell her what changes they wanted.
她已经完成了初稿，他们召开了这次会议，与她一起审阅草稿，并告诉她他们想要哪些修改。
And this is the very first time they were reviewing her work, and she tape-recorded the meeting, so she would get all of their comments, all of their notes, not lose anything.
这是他们第一次审查她的工作，她对会议进行了录音，这样她就可以得到他们所有的评论、所有的笔记，而不会丢失任何东西。
And they get to the end of going through the script, and then everybody's still sitting around, and they start making small talk, and it's the two people who run this TV show, and the comedian who is the star of the TV show, this guy Louie C.K., incredibly funny guy.
他们读完剧本，然后每个人仍然坐在一起，他们开始闲聊，是两个人主持这个电视节目，喜剧演员是电视节目的明星，这个家伙路易·C.K.，非常有趣的人。
In fact, they're all really funny.
事实上，它们都非常有趣。
And somehow politics comes up, and the three guys in the room are talking about it, being funny, and Tami is just trying to think of something interesting to say.
不知怎的，政治出现了，房间里的三个人正在谈论它，很有趣，而塔米只是试图想出一些有趣的话来说。
We've all been in the situation at work, or socially, or wherever, she wants to say something funny and smart, and time is passing.
我们都曾遇到过这样的情况，无论是在工作中，还是在社交场合，或者在任何地方，她想说一些有趣而聪明的话，而时间却在流逝。
And she's getting a little anxious.
她有点着急了。
I'm just scared that it's going to end on this note of them having this really sparkling political debate with funniness, and then like, all right, Tami, go home and write your episode, see you later.
我只是害怕这会以他们进行一场非常有趣的、闪闪发光的政治辩论结束，然后就像，好吧，塔米，回家写你的剧集，稍后见。
Right, and you won't get a chance to prove to them that you are one of them?
对了，你就没有机会向他们证明你是他们中的一员吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass Just listening to the recording of it, what you sent us, it seems like you're trying to get a word in edgewise, and maybe not always succeeding.
Ira Glass：只要听一下你发给我们的录音，你似乎正试图插话，但也许并不总是成功。
But let's play a cut of that.
但让我们播放其中的一个片段。
And that's where we belong.
这就是我们的归属。
Man 2 Right.
男人2 对。
Or.
或者。
You're about to go somewhere with that, and you don't really do that.
你正打算带着它去某个地方，但你并没有真正这么做。
Here's another one.
这是另一张。
Maybe one-- Man 1 And apart from another Republican President.
也许有一个——男人1 除了另一位共和党总统。
You can just hear-- like it's a person trying to get on a highway at the ramp, and that sort of like, can I merge?
你可以听到——就像有人试图在高速公路的坡道上行驶，之类的，我可以并道吗？
No?
不？
OK, OK.
好的，好的。
So what happens?
那么会发生什么呢？
Tami Sagher OK, so to really get what happens next, you have to know that, four or five years ago, I came up with this joke while I was walking my dog about Ralph Nader.
塔米·萨格（Tami Sagher）好吧，为了真正了解接下来会发生什么，你必须知道，四五年前，我在遛狗时想出了这个关于拉尔夫·纳德（Ralph Nader）的笑话。
Ralph Nader, like, four years ago said, that 9/11 wouldn't have happened if he'd been elected president, because he would have done something to the cockpit doors as soon as he was elected that would have prevented it from happening.
拉尔夫·纳德 (Ralph Nader) 四年前说过，如果他当选总统，9/11 事件就不会发生，因为他一当选就会对驾驶舱门做一些事情，以防止其发生。
Right, his group, Public Citizen, had been lobbying to actually strengthen the cockpit doors so nobody can bust into the cockpit doors, but nobody listened to them, basically.
是的，他的组织“公众公民”一直在游说，要求加强驾驶舱门，这样就没有人可以闯入驾驶舱门，但基本上没有人听他们的。
Exactly.
确切地。
Exactly.
确切地。
And so, when he said that, I came up with a line about it while I was walking my dogs, but I don't do stand-up.
所以，当他这么说的时候，我在遛狗的时候想出了一句台词，但我不做单口喜剧。
But it's a total stand-up line.
但这完全是站立台词。
And so I never actually said the line, because it's sort of impossible to toss off in conversation.
所以我从来没有真正说过这句话，因为在谈话中这是不可能的。
And so it just was there.
所以它就在那里。
It was just sitting there.
它只是坐在那里。
So you have this four-year-old joke that really has nowhere to live?
那么这个四年前的笑话真的无处可住吗？
Right, and has never been said.
对的，而且从来没有说过。
And then Louie brings up Ralph Nader.
然后路易提到了拉尔夫·纳德。
I voted for Nader in 2000, or whichever one.
我在 2000 年或无论哪一年都投票给纳德。
Yeah, 2000.
是的，2000 年。
What he does is he basically talks about the fact that he voted for Nader, and what people said to him about it.
他所做的基本上就是谈论他投票给纳德的事实，以及人们对此的评价。
And while he's talking about this, what are you thinking?
当他谈论这个时，你在想什么？
All I'm thinking is, how can I bring up the cockpit door thing?
我只想说，我怎样才能提起驾驶舱门的事情呢？
That's really all I'm thinking.
我真的就是这么想的。
Can I bring this around to 9/11, so I can say this joke.
我可以把这个时间推迟到 9/11，这样我就可以讲这个笑话了。
Exactly.
确切地。
But in the meantime, they're talking about other stuff about Ralph Nader, and then I'm sort of biting my tongue, and then Louie brings up the thing about the 9/11 and the cockpit doors.
但与此同时，他们正在谈论有关拉尔夫纳德的其他事情，然后我有点咬住舌头，然后路易提出了有关 9/11 和驾驶舱门的事情。
And all of a sudden, there's this organic opening for this line.
突然之间，这条线就有机地开放了。
No, it's like somebody said to Ralph Nader after 9/11, what if that had been you in the White House?
不，就像 9/11 事件后有人对拉尔夫纳德说的，如果那是你在白宫怎么办？
Wouldn't even you say now that we wouldn't want Ralph Nader in the White House after 9/11?
难道你现在不说我们不希望拉尔夫·纳德在 9/11 事件后入主白宫吗？
And he said, sorry, but my organization has been trying to get the airlines to bolt their doors.
他说，抱歉，但我的组织一直在努力让航空公司关门。
Yeah, he said 9/11 wouldn't have happened--
是的，他说 9/11 不会发生——
Wouldn't have happened if I was president.
如果我是总统就不会发生这种情况。
I am thinking, just wait, just wait.
我在想，等一下，等一下。
Let him do it, let him do it.
让他做，让他做。
And then he's not quite getting it out, so I'm kind of like trying to help it along, like just maybe walking into a pitch, like c'mon, here we go baby.
然后他还没有完全把它说出来，所以我有点想尝试帮助它，就像也许走进一个球场，就像来吧，我们开始吧宝贝。
Because you know if you can just get this out, you are sitting on pure gold.
因为你知道如果你能把这个拿出来，你就坐上了纯金。
You're sitting on this thing, and finally.
你终于坐在了这件事上。
And the federal government won't enforce them.
联邦政府不会强制执行它们。
If he'd been elected, he would have been too distracted by all the flying pigs.
如果他当选了，他就会被所有飞猪分散注意力。
[LAUGHTER] Come on.
[笑声]来吧。
Come on.
快点。
It's so sweet.
太甜了。
And then they even riff on it for a little while, which is like the best thing that can happen.
然后他们甚至会重复一段时间，这就像是可能发生的最好的事情。
I think Aaron is doing other sort of hell freezing over jokes.
我认为亚伦正在因为笑话而做另一种地狱般的冻结。
We wouldn't be spending all our money heating hell.
我们不会把所有的钱都花在取暖地狱上。
And so for you, did you feel a sense of triumph?
那么对于你来说，你有一种胜利的感觉吗？
Or did you feel instantly a sense that it doesn't count, because you were using a joke that you had made up four years ago?
或者你是否立刻觉得这不算数，因为你用的是四年前编的一个笑话？
I felt a total sense of triumph.
我感到一种完全的胜利感。
Well, I felt, like, a 95% sense of triumph, and then a 5%, but it's a lie.
嗯，我感觉，95% 的胜利感，然后是 5%，但这是一个谎言。
And then, whatever, yeah, so's makeup.
然后，无论如何，是的，化妆也是如此。
Makeup is a lie.
化妆是一个谎言。
And so are you done?
那么你完成了吗？
Are you in?
你在吗？
Is that it?
是这样吗？
That's it, you used that joke to kind of get you over the hump, and now is it through?
就是这样，你用那个笑话来帮助你渡过难关，现在一切都过去了吗？
I felt like I'm more in, yeah.
我觉得我更投入了，是的。
I don't know that I'll ever feel like I'm in with anybody.
我不知道我是否会感觉自己和任何人在一起。
But no, I have felt like I'm more in.
但不，我觉得我更投入了。
I have felt a marked difference.
我感觉到了明显的不同。
I mean, do you ever feel like you're totally in with anybody?
我的意思是，你有没有感觉自己和某人完全融为一体？
Dude, I'm married to somebody who I feel like I'm constantly in a situation of having-- she doesn't feel this way, but I totally feel like every day I have to prove myself anew.
伙计，我嫁给了一个我觉得我一直处于这样的境地的人——她不这么认为，但我完全觉得我每天都必须重新证明自己。
Really?
真的吗？
Well, here's one more thing though that is kind of sucky about it, though, is by constantly checking in with what the other person's opinion of you is, you're not just being with that person.
好吧，还有一件事虽然有点糟糕，但不断地检查别人对你的看法，你不仅仅是和那个人在一起。
There's a level of removal there that is sad.
那里有一定程度的去除，这是令人悲伤的。
Totally.
完全。
That's totally my personality.
这完全就是我的个性。
For me, I think that something went wrong when I was a kid, where I think that other people, they just accept that they're in.
对我来说，我认为当我还是个孩子的时候，出了一些问题，我认为其他人只是接受了他们的处境。
They accept that this other person likes them, and they don't have to keep proving themself.
他们接受这个人喜欢他们，并且他们不需要不断证明自己。
Whereas for me, it's entirely temporal.
而对我来说，这完全是暂时的。
I'm constantly judging the whole thing moment by moment, and it could always fall apart.
我时时刻刻不断地评判整个事情，它总是可能崩溃。
For me, it never ends.
对我来说，它永远不会结束。
I remember when I was a kid, and I think I was probably, like, four maybe, so my sister was nine, and my brother was 14, and we were doing bits around the table.
我记得当我还是个孩子的时候，我想我可能四岁，所以我姐姐九岁，我哥哥 14 岁，我们在桌子周围做一些事情。
I remember them acting stuff out that I didn't quite understand what was going on.
我记得他们的表演让我不太明白发生了什么。
And I remember going up and trying to imitate them, and acting something out.
我记得我走上前去尝试模仿他们，并表演一些东西。
And I remember only my mom laughing.
我记得只有我妈妈在笑。
And I remember even then being like, she's just trying to make me feel better, and just knowing it wasn't a real laugh.
我记得即使在那时，她只是想让我感觉好一点，只是知道这不是真正的笑声。
Tough room.
艰难的房间。
[LAUGHTER] Tami Sagher And also, I was the jerk, too, like whatever Mom, I don't want your unconditional love.
[笑声] Tami Sagher 而且，我也是个混蛋，就像妈妈一样，我不需要你无条件的爱。
Give me some of that-- my father has actually said to me, doesn't my approval mean more because it is conditional?
给我一些吧——我父亲实际上对我说过，我的批准不是更有意义吗，因为它是有条件的？
I once was on stage.
我曾经在舞台上。
They asked for a volunteer, and this guy put a blindfold on me, and he danced me around the stage, and all this stuff.
他们要求一名志愿者，这个人给我蒙上眼睛，然后他带着我在舞台上跳舞，诸如此类。
And at the end, they take the blindfold off, and they said, how about applause for the volunteer?
最后，他们摘下眼罩，然后说，为志愿者鼓掌怎么样？
And everybody in the audience clapped except for my father.
除了我父亲之外，观众中的每个人都鼓掌。
And afterwards, I was like, Papa, what's up?
后来我就想，爸爸，怎么了？
And he goes, you didn't do anything.
然后他走了，你什么也没做。
You were a human prop.
你是人类的支柱。
What?
什么？
Tami Sagher.
塔米·萨格尔.
She now writes for the NBC show, 30 Rock .
她现在为 NBC 节目《30 Rock》撰稿。
She says that having a storeroom of old jokes, used and unused, inside of her head, sometimes very great and useful, other times, does not serve her so well.
她说，她脑子里有一堆老笑话，用过的和没用过的，有时非常好用，有时却对她没有好处。
A quick warning to listeners in what she's about to say.
她接下来要说的内容是对听众的快速警告。
The jokes that she is about to tell, they aren't explicit or anything, but they might not be appropriate for children.
她要讲的笑话，虽然不露骨什么的，但可能不适合小孩子。
I was on a trip to Switzerland, and I was with 18 people.
我和 18 个人一起去瑞士旅行。
It was one of these walking tours.
这是徒步旅行之一。
And this hotel in Switzerland, somebody says, hey, the professional has a joke.
瑞士的这家酒店，有人说，嘿，专业人士开了个玩笑。
And nobody knows me in this group.
这个小组里没有人认识我。
We've been together two or three days, and the average age is, like, 60-something.
我们在一起有两三天了，平均年龄大概有60岁左右。
And I was about to tell my favorite child molester joke, which is, did you hear about the Jewish pedophile?
我正要讲我最喜欢的儿童猥亵者笑话，那就是，你听说过犹太恋童癖吗？
He's the one who says, hey, kids, easy on the candy.
他就是那个说，嘿，孩子们，吃点糖果吧。
So in my head, I was like, I can't tell the Jewish pedophile joke, because I'm Jewish, so I can say that.
所以在我的脑海里，我想，我不能讲犹太恋童癖的笑话，因为我是犹太人，所以我可以这么说。
But we're in Switzerland, and there's already weirdness there.
但我们在瑞士，那里已经出现了奇怪的现象。
But at the same time, this group is cool enough.
但同时，这个团体也足够酷。
So I tell this other child molester joke, which is that a little boy and a child molester are walking through the forest.
所以我讲了另一个儿童猥亵者的笑话，一个小男孩和一个儿童猥亵者正在森林里散步。
And all of a sudden, I can just feel the temperature of the table just go down, like, 10 degrees.
突然之间，我能感觉到桌子的温度下降了，大约10度。
And one woman goes, oh.
一位女士说，哦。
And then I'm like, no, I got to go through with it.
然后我想，不，我必须完成它。
I'm going to win them over.
我要赢得他们的支持。
And so I was like, it's literally a dark and stormy night, and the little boy says I'm scared.
所以我想，这确实是一个漆黑的暴风雨之夜，小男孩说我很害怕。
And the child molester says, you're scared?
猥亵儿童者说，你害怕吗？
I got to walk out of here by myself.
我必须自己走出这里。
And total silence, like total horrible, horrible silence.
完全的沉默，就像完全可怕的、可怕的沉默。
And then the guy down at the end of the table, the one who says, hey, the professional has a joke, now he goes, what do you call a cow that doesn't give any milk?
然后桌子尽头的那个人说，嘿，专业人士开了个玩笑，现在他走了，你怎么称呼一头不产奶的奶牛呢？
A milk dud.
一个牛奶哑巴。
And [CHEERING] we love you, like hilarious joke.
[欢呼]我们爱你，就像一个搞笑的笑话。
And that was just-- It's like a Dixie Cup joke.
那只是——这就像一个迪克西杯笑话。
But totally pandering, because we are in Switzerland, so we're around a lot of cows.
但这完全是为了迎合，因为我们在瑞士，所以我们周围有很多牛。
And here's my other problem with that joke.
这是我对这个笑话的另一个问题。
It's like nine words long, and he says milk in the question and the answer.
好像有九个字那么长，他在问题和答案中都说牛奶。
I was thinking of that.
我正在想这个。
Tami Sagher Exactly.
塔米·萨格 没错。
That's a really poorly phrased joke.
这实在是一个措辞不当的笑话。
It's a low-level joke.
这是一个低级的笑话。
Huge laughs, compliments to him.
哈哈大笑，对他赞不绝口。
And I'm sitting stewing in the corner, like whatever, a little bit mad even.
我正坐在角落里焦躁不安，就像别的什么，甚至有点生气。
But my favorite joke, and this is what I always say when people are like, oh, you're in comedy?
但这是我最喜欢的笑话，当人们问我，哦，你在演喜剧吗？
Tell me a joke.
给我讲个笑话吧。
And this always disappoints, always, but I still love it, is, what did the snail say on the turtle's back?
这总是令人失望，总是，但我仍然喜欢它，就是，蜗牛在乌龟背上说了什么？
Wheeee.
哎哟。
Are they're just like, oh, that's what you do for a living?
他们只是说，哦，这就是你的谋生方式吗？
And then I want to be like, no, but you can't handle the truth.
然后我想说，不，但你无法面对真相。
You can't handle the Jewish pedophile.
你对付不了犹太恋童癖者。
Well, our program was produced today by Sarah Koenig and myself, with Alex Blumberg, Diane Cook, Jane Feltes, Lisa Pollack, and Nancy Updike.
好吧，我们今天的节目是由莎拉·科尼格和我本人以及亚历克斯·布伦伯格、黛安·库克、简·费尔特斯、丽莎·波拉克和南希·厄普代克制作的。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Shiow-Jiau Yung runs our website.
Shiow-Jiau Yung 负责运营我们的网站。
Production help from Seth Lind, Bruce Wallace, music help from Jessica Hopper.
塞斯·林德 (Seth Lind)、布鲁斯·华莱士 (Bruce Wallace) 提供制作帮助，杰西卡·霍珀 (Jessica Hopper) 提供音乐帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our website, where you can get our free weekly podcasts, or listen to our old shows for free, www.thisamericanlife.org.
[鸣谢] 我们的网站 www.thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中获取我们的免费每周播客，或免费收听我们的旧节目。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight for our program, Mr. Torey Malatia, who does not understand why we did Act Four today, no matter what I say.
[资金来源] WBEZ 管理部门对我们的项目进行监督，Torey Malatia 先生，无论我说什么，他都不明白为什么我们今天要进行第四幕。
So basically, you're saying it's an inexplicable act, and it happened for no real reason at all?
所以基本上，你是说这是一种莫名其妙的行为，而且它的发生根本没有真正的原因？
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of this American life.
下周我们将带来更多有关美国生活的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。