310: Habeas Schmabeas - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #310 | March 10, 2006 310: Habeas Schmabeas Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 310 集 | 2006 年 3 月 10 日 310：人身保护令 Schmabeas 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass So here's how a lawyer meets with his client when his client is a prisoner at Guantanamo.
序言 Ira Glass 以下是一名律师在关塔那摩关押囚犯时与他的委托人会面的情况。
There's a little hut with a metal table.
有一间小小屋，里面有一张金属桌子。
He's brought out of the box and shackled to an eye bolt in the floor, with his back to the door.
他被从箱子里拿出来，绑在地板上的一个吊环螺栓上，背对着门。
He's forbidden to face the natural light.
他被禁止面对自然光。
Joe Margulies at the University of Chicago represents a few detainees at Guantanamo.
芝加哥大学的乔·马古利斯代表关塔那摩监狱的一些被拘留者。
And he says that to understand that thing about the natural light, you have to understand that the detention facilities at Guantanamo were designed to be the perfect interrogation chambers.
他说，要了解自然光的问题，你必须了解关塔那摩的拘留设施被设计成完美的审讯室。
And so anything the prisoner wants, including sunlight, he's only going to get with the permission of his interrogators as a reward for cooperating.
因此，囚犯想要的任何东西，包括阳光，他都只能在审讯者的许可下得到，作为合作的奖励。
And anything can be used that way.
任何东西都可以这样使用。
Mail.
邮件。
Another lawyer discovered when he first got there that his client, a middle-aged gentlemen with five children who is a London businessman who was picked up in the Gambia, and he wasn't getting any mail from his family.
另一位律师在第一次到达那里时发现，他的当事人是一位有五个孩子的中年绅士，是一位在冈比亚被接走的伦敦商人，但他没有收到家人的任何邮件。
And he couldn't understand it, because he felt abandoned and alone from his five children.
他无法理解这一点，因为他感到被遗弃，与五个孩子在一起感到孤独。
And the lawyer had the presence of mind to make inquiries to see what was the matter.
律师还冷静地去询问到底是怎么回事。
And discovered that 16 letters were in the military's possession that they had refused to deliver.
并发现军方拥有 16 封信件，但他们拒绝投递。
And when they did finally deliver them, someone had actually taken the time to redact out the words from the children, "we miss you daddy, we love you daddy, we're thinking of you." That is apparently not right because it disrupts the sense of isolation and despair that they are trying to cultivate.
当他们最终交付它们时，实际上有人花时间编辑了孩子们的话：“我们想念你，爸爸，我们爱你，爸爸，我们想你。”这显然是不对的，因为它破坏了他们试图培养的孤立感和绝望感。
Ira Glass When prisoners feel despair, they'll cooperate, they'll talk, they'll tell us all the dangerous things they know.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：当囚犯感到绝望时，他们会合作，他们会说话，他们会告诉我们他们所知道的所有危险事情。
That's the idea.
就是这个想法。
Let's make them feel hopeless.
让我们让他们感到绝望。
Ever since President Bush announced the global war on terror, we've been told this is a different kind of war, with different rules.
自从布什总统宣布全球反恐战争以来，我们就被告知这是一场不同类型的战争，有不同的规则。
The battlefield isn't a jungle in Asia, or a beach in France.
战场不是亚洲的丛林，也不是法国的海滩。
It's everywhere.
它无处不在。
Soldiers aren't guys in uniform.
士兵不是穿制服的人。
They could be anybody.
他们可以是任何人。
And prisoners of war are different, too, so dangerous, we're told, that we keep them in an offshore facility, in as close to total secrecy as possible, to interrogate whenever we want, however long we want, using methods we have never approved for other wars.
战俘也不同，我们被告知，他们非常危险，因此我们将他们关在离岸设施中，尽可能完全保密，以便在我们想要的时候进行审讯，无论需要多久，使用我们从未批准用于其他战争的方法。
And one thing that's just weird about Guantanamo is that, in all of these years that it has been going, why haven't we seen more of these guys on radio and TV?
关塔那摩的一件奇怪的事情是，这么多年以来，为什么我们没有在广播和电视上看到更多这样的人？
Over 200 of them have been released, right?
其中有超过200个已经被释放了，对吗？
At our radio show, we were talking about this this week and we realized that none of us had ever heard or read an interview with any of those guys.
在我们的广播节目中，我们本周讨论了这个问题，我们意识到我们没有人听过或读过对这些人的采访。
And so, today, you're going to hear from two of those Guantanamo detainees who have been released.
因此，今天，您将听到两名已获释的关塔那摩被拘留者的声音。
And I believe you're going to be surprised at what they're like.
我相信你会对他们的样子感到惊讶。
And we're also going to explain, once and for all, how it is that, under these brand-new government rules and procedures in this new war, somebody can be locked away, basically forever, even when the government's own classified files say he is not a threat to America.
我们还将一劳永逸地解释，在这场新战争中，根据这些全新的政府规则和程序，某人可能会被基本上永远地关起来，即使政府自己的机密文件说他对美国不构成威胁。
Well, it's This American Life from the WBEZ Chicago, distributed by Public Radio International.
嗯，这是芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
Our guide for all of this is Jack Hitt.
我们的向导是杰克·希特（Jack Hitt）。
A few years ago, he tackled some of these issues for our radio show, and he's spent a few months digging deeper, trying to understand what's happening now.
几年前，他为我们的广播节目解决了其中一些问题，他花了几个月的时间进行更深入的挖掘，试图了解现在正在发生的事情。
Here he is.
他在这里。
As best as they can tell, Badr Zaman Badr and his brother were imprisoned in Guantanamo for three years for telling a joke.
据他们所知，巴德尔·扎曼·巴德尔和他的兄弟因讲笑话而在关塔那摩被监禁了三年。
Actually, for telling two jokes.
其实是为了讲两个笑话。
They ran a satire magazine in Pakistan to poke fun at corrupt clerics, sort of the Pashto edition of The Onion .
他们在巴基斯坦经营一本讽刺杂志，嘲笑腐败的神职人员，有点像普什图语版的《洋葱报》。
The first joke that got them into trouble is when they published a poem about a politician called, "I Am Glad To Be A Leader." Here's Badr.
第一个让他们陷入麻烦的笑话是他们发表了一首关于一位政治家的诗，名为“我很高兴成为一名领导者”。这是巴德尔。
Sure.
当然。
Badr Zaman Badr Before I was so thin and weak, and now I have big stomach.
Badr Zaman Badr 以前我很瘦弱，现在我的肚子很大。
Uh, stuff like that.
呃，诸如此类的事情。
Yeah.
是的。
So the guy with the big stomach called up Badr and his brother.
于是，大胃王就给巴德尔和他的兄弟打了电话。
He threatened them, and, as best as they can tell, told authorities that they were linked to Al Qaeda, which landed them in Guantanamo, and which leads us to the second joke.
他威胁他们，并且据他们所知，告诉当局他们与基地组织有联系，基地组织将他们带到了关塔那摩，这让我们想到了第二个笑话。
This one was in an issue of Badr's magazine that came out in the '90s, after our government set a $5 million reward for Osama bin Laden.
这是上世纪 90 年代巴德尔杂志中的一期，当时我们的政府悬赏 500 万美元缉拿奥萨马·本·拉登。
Badr's magazine issued its own bounty for the capture of an American leader.
巴德尔的杂志也悬赏捉拿一位美国领导人。
President Bill Clinton.
比尔·克林顿总统。
Giving the details how to identify, that he has blue eyes and he's clean-shaven.
详细说明了如何识别他，他有蓝眼睛，胡子刮得干干净净。
And the most important thing is that a recent scandal is going on between Clinton and Monica Lewinsky.
而最重要的是，最近克林顿和莫妮卡·莱温斯基之间正在发生丑闻。
If someone finds that man, he will be awarded 5 million Afghani, Afghan currency, which was equal to $113 at that time.
如果有人找到这个人，将奖励他500万阿富汗尼，阿富汗货币，当时相当于113美元。
It's impossible to figure out, yeah.
这是不可能弄清楚的，是的。
In Guantanamo, were you interrogated about your Clinton satire?
在关塔那摩，你是否因讽刺克林顿而被审问？
Exactly.
确切地。
They were serious, if you really want to kill President Clinton?
他们是认真的，如果你真的想杀死克林顿总统？
And we said, no, that's not.
我们说，不，不是这样。
That was only satire, and only a way of expression.
那只是讽刺，只是一种表达方式。
It is allowed.
这是允许的。
It is protected in your country, in American law.
它在您所在的国家/地区受到美国法律的保护。
How many times were you interrogated, do you think, about the Clinton article?
您认为您因克林顿的文章被审问了多少次？
Oh, many times, many times.
哦，很多次，很多次。
Me and my brother, each one of us, have been interrogated more than a 150 times.
我和我的兄弟，我们每一个人，都被审问了 150 多次。
So after hearing the punchline explained 150 times, we finally got the joke, and sent Badr and his brother home.
因此，在听了 150 遍笑话后，我们终于明白了这个笑话，并把巴德尔和他的兄弟送回家。
It had been three years since the Pakistani army surrounded their house in Peshawar, came into their living room, which is lined with wall-to-wall bookcases, and arrested them.
自从巴基斯坦军队包围他们在白沙瓦的家，进入他们摆满书柜的客厅并逮捕他们以来，已经过去三年了。
That's Badr's version of why we jailed them.
这就是巴德尔所说的我们监禁他们的原因。
Here's President Bush's.
这里是布什总统的。
These are people that got scooped up off a battlefield attempting to kill US troops.
这些人是在战场上试图杀死美军时被救出来的。
And I want to make sure, before they're released, that they don't come back to kill again.
我想确保，在他们被释放之前，他们不会再回来杀人。
The administration has never wavered on this point.
在这一点上，政府从未动摇过。
Here's Dick Cheney on Guantanamo.
这是迪克·切尼在关塔那摩的报道。
The people that are there are people we picked up on the battlefield, primarily in Afghanistan.
那里的人是我们在战场上找到的人，主要是在阿富汗。
They're terrorists.
他们是恐怖分子。
They're bomb makers.
他们是炸弹制造者。
They're facilitators of terror.
他们是恐怖活动的推动者。
They're members of Al Qaeda, the Taliban.
他们是基地组织塔利班的成员。
We're told over and over that these prisoners are so terrible that we need an offshore facility away from US law to hold them.
我们一遍又一遍地被告知，这些囚犯是如此可怕，我们需要一个远离美国法律的离岸设施来关押他们。
But then there's Badr.
但还有巴德尔。
And every day, more stories like his are coming out.
每天都有更多像他这样的故事出现。
And they raise the question, is Guantanamo a camp full of terrorists, or a camp full of mistakes?
他们提出了这样的问题：关塔那摩是一个充满恐怖分子的营地，还是一个充满错误的营地？
In a new study from Seton Hall's law school, researchers simply went to the trouble of reading the 517 Guantanamo case files released by the Pentagon.
在西顿霍尔法学院的一项新研究中，研究人员不厌其烦地阅读了五角大楼公布的 517 关塔那摩案件档案。
Here is what they found.
这是他们的发现。
Only 5% of our detainees in Guantanamo were scooped up by American troops on the battlefield or anywhere else, 5%.
我们在关塔那摩的被拘留者中只有 5% 是在战场上或其他任何地方被美军抓走的，即 5%。
The rest, we never saw them fighting.
其余的，我们从未见过他们打架。
And here's something else.
还有其他的事情。
only 8% of the detainees in Guantanamo are classified by the Pentagon as Al Qaeda fighters.
关塔那摩监狱中只有 8% 的被拘留者被五角大楼归类为基地组织战士。
In fact, Michael Dunleavy, head of interrogations at Guantanamo, complained in 2002 that he was receiving too many, quote, "Mickey Mouse prisoners."
事实上，关塔那摩监狱审讯负责人迈克尔·邓利维 (Michael Dunleavy) 在 2002 年抱怨说，他接收了太多“米老鼠囚犯”。
In 2004, the New York Times did a huge investigation interviewing dozens of high level military intelligence and law enforcement officials in the US, Europe, and the Middle East.
2004年，《纽约时报》进行了一项大规模调查，采访了美国、欧洲和中东的数十名高级军事情报和执法官员。
There was a surprising consensus that, out of nearly 600 men at Guantanamo, the number who could give us useful information about Al Qaeda was, quote, "only a relative handful." Some put the number at about a dozen, others more than two dozen.
人们达成了一个令人惊讶的共识，即在关塔那摩监狱的近 600 名人员中，能够向我们提供有关基地组织有用信息的人数“相对较少”。有些人说这个数字大约是十几个，有些人说是两打以上。
The Seton Hall study might help explain that.
西顿霍尔的研究可能有助于解释这一点。
It revealed that 86% of the detainees were handed over to us by Pakistan or the Northern Alliance.
据透露，86%的被拘留者是巴基斯坦或北方联盟移交给我们的。
And some were handed over to us by a new method.
还有一些是通过新的方式交给我们的。
Here's Badr.
这是巴德尔。
Actually, in our interrogation, the American interrogators have been telling us that they have paid a lot of money to those who handed over us to Americans.
事实上，在我们的审讯中，美国审讯者一直告诉我们，他们向那些把我们交给美国人的人支付了很多钱。
The problem was, we were offering bounties.
问题是，我们提供赏金。
You know, $5,000 or $10,000.
你知道，5,000 美元或 10,000 美元。
Al Qaeda brought more than Taliban did.
基地组织带来的比塔利班带来的更多。
And so, OK, fine, here's your money.
所以，好吧，好吧，这是你的钱。
Take them to Gitmo.
带他们去关塔那摩监狱。
That's Rear Admiral John Hutson, the Navy's top lawyer.
他就是海军少将约翰·赫特森，海军高级律师。
He was the Judge Advocate General until 2000.
2000 年之前，他一直担任军法署署长。
He says, essentially, we bought Badr, and a whole lot of other prisoners.
他说，本质上，我们买了巴德尔和很多其他囚犯。
And when you look at the economy in that part of the world, you know, that really is kind of a king's ransom.
当你看看世界那个地区的经济时，你就会知道，这确实是一笔巨大的赎金。
We all know this is a new war with new rules.
我们都知道这是一场新规则的新战争。
But what were the old rules?
但旧规则是什么？
Well, one had to do with POWs.
嗯，其中之一与战俘有关。
The military has always known that all kinds of prisoners get picked up in the fog of war.
军方一直都知道，各种各样的囚犯都会在战争迷雾中被抓起来。
So it was important to get those numbers down to just the real POWs, since troops on the move didn't want to be burdened with looking after lots and lots of captives.
因此，重要的是要让这些数字仅限于真正的战俘，因为移动中的部队不想承担照顾大量俘虏的负担。
This problem had been more or less solved by the old Geneva Conventions, which required a, quote, "competent tribunal."
旧的《日内瓦公约》或多或少已经解决了这个问题，该公约需要一个“主管法庭”。
It sounds crazy, a kind of impromptu court hearing, right after a battle.
这听起来很疯狂，就像一场战斗结束后的临时法庭听证会。
But that is exactly what used to happen.
但这正是过去发生的事情。
And typically, some 75% to 90% of the people scooped up would be sent home.
通常情况下，大约 75% 到 90% 的被救人会被送回家。
In the Gulf War of 1991, we captured 982 people, released 750 of them right away, and the remainder were POWs.
1991年海湾战争，我们俘虏了982人，立即释放了750人，其余都是战俘。
Like in the old war movies, they gave name, rank, and serial number, and they got certain things, everything from a pledge that they wouldn't be tortured, to a promise that they be released once the war ended, and even the right to send letters home.
就像在老战争电影中一样，他们给出了姓名、军衔和序列号，然后他们得到了某些东西，从保证他们不会受到酷刑，到保证战争结束后他们会被释放，甚至还有寄信回家的权利。
But this is a new kind of war, after all.
但这毕竟是一种新型战争。
And the administration made the argument that the Geneva Conventions apply only when you're fighting another country, a country with a uniformed army, not when you're fighting terrorists.
政府提出的论点是，《日内瓦公约》仅适用于与另一个国家、一个拥有军装军队的国家作战时，而不是在与恐怖分子作战时。
They do not apply where the individuals captured haven't shown that they deserve those protections.
如果被捕获的个人没有表明他们应该得到这些保护，则它们不适用。
That's Brian Boyle.
那是布莱恩·博伊尔。
He was Associate Attorney General for President Bush when these decisions were made.
当这些决定做出时，他是布什总统的副司法部长。
They did not legally qualify as Prisoners of War, because they are not fighting in uniform, because they try to blend in with the civilian population, because they try to take cover in civilian areas.
他们在法律上没有资格成为战俘，因为他们不穿制服作战，因为他们试图融入平民，因为他们试图在平民区寻找掩护。
Hasn't that been a problem for war for most of the 20th century, or at least in the last couple of conflicts we've been in?
在20世纪的大部分时间里，或者至少在我们经历的最近几次冲突中，这难道不是一个战争问题吗？
I mean, is rooting out Al Qaeda any harder, or how is it harder than rooting out Viet Cong in a local village?
我的意思是，根除基地组织是否更难，或者比根除当地村庄的越共更难？
I take the point.
我明白这一点。
I guess the point I was making earlier is that I don't think you can conclude, given the nature of the enemy we're facing, that how we treat Al Qaeda operatives that we're able to capture is going to make any difference at all in how they would treat American personnel in their custody, wouldn't make a difference at all.
我想我之前提出的观点是，考虑到我们面临的敌人的性质，我认为你不能得出这样的结论：我们如何对待我们能够抓获的基地组织特工，会对他们如何对待被拘留的美国人员产生任何影响，根本不会产生任何影响。
You know, that argument can really take you to some dark places, I think.
你知道，我认为这种争论真的会把你带到一些黑暗的地方。
Here's Real Admiral Hutson.
这是真正的赫特森海军上将。
John Hutson If we pick and choose, then other countries can pick and choose whether they're going to apply the Geneva Conventions.
约翰·赫特森：如果我们进行选择，那么其他国家也可以选择是否适用《日内瓦公约》。
And you know, that is a slippery slope that Secretary Powell and others did not want us to go down, because they're looking over the horizon.
你知道，这是一个滑坡，鲍威尔国务卿和其他人不希望我们走下去，因为他们正在展望地平线。
They know that this isn't the last war we're going to fight.
他们知道这不是我们要打的最后一场战争。
It's not even the next-to-last war we're going to fight.
这甚至不是我们要打的倒数第二场战争。
This quarrel about the Geneva Conventions continued for three years, and eventually got down to one very practical question.
这场关于《日内瓦公约》的争论持续了三年，最终归结为一个非常实际的问题。
If you're a prisoner, and you're not protected by the Geneva Conventions, and you might be held indefinitely, could you at least make an appeal in a US court?
如果你是一名囚犯，并且不受《日内瓦公约》的保护，并且可能会被无限期关押，你至少可以向美国法院提出上诉吗？
Here's Attorney General Alberto Gonzales.
请听司法部长阿尔贝托·冈萨雷斯的报道。
We really are, for all intents and purposes, at war.
无论出于何种意图和目的，我们确实处于战争之中。
And so you need not provide access to counsel.
因此，您无需提供咨询服务。
You need not provide the ability to challenge their detention in a criminal court.
您无需提供在刑事法庭质疑他们被拘留的能力。
It would be like saying that Germans who were captured in World War II would have to be provided lawyers.
这就像说必须为在第二次世界大战中被俘的德国人提供律师一样。
The truth of the matter is the rules and procedures of our criminal justice system simply do not apply in this case.
事实是，我们刑事司法系统的规则和程序根本不适用于本案。
And he's absolutely right, about the Germans, except the Germans were covered by the Geneva Conventions.
他对德国人的看法绝对正确，只是德国人受到《日内瓦公约》的保护。
Finally, in 2004, the United States Supreme Court stepped in.
最终，2004年，美国最高法院介入。
It said, if prisoners aren't going to be covered by the Geneva Conventions, that's fine, but they couldn't be permitted to fall into a legal black hole, not protected by any law at all.
它说，如果囚犯不受《日内瓦公约》的保护，那很好，但不能允许他们陷入法律黑洞，根本不受任何法律保护。
They had to be given some way to challenge their detainment.
必须给予他们某种方式来质疑他们的拘留。
It's one of the oldest rights in Western Civilization, known as habeas corpus.
这是西方文明中最古老的权利之一，被称为人身保护令。
Habeas corpus, it's a phrase we all know, but, let's be honest, can't ever really remember what it means.
人身保护令，这是我们都知道的一个短语，但是，说实话，我们永远无法真正记住它的含义。
It's not a trial, or anything like one.
这不是一场审判，或者类似的事情。
Its more, well, primal.
它更，嗯，原始。
It's a hearing that commands the executive, in this case, the President, to explain why he has jailed somebody.
这是一次命令行政人员（在本例中为总统）解释他为何监禁某人的听证会。
The idea dates back to 1215, England, when the nobles forced King John to sign the Magna Carta and agree to the great writ, later known as habeas corpus.
这个想法可以追溯到1215年的英国，当时贵族们强迫约翰国王签署大宪章并同意这份伟大的令状，后来被称为人身保护令。
In Latin, it means, show me the body.
在拉丁语中，它的意思是，给我看看身体。
In other words, a neutral judge got to see the prisoner in person to check if he'd been tortured, and then the judge had the power to require the king to explain, why is this guy jailed.
换句话说，中立的法官必须亲自见到囚犯，检查他是否受到酷刑，然后法官有权要求国王解释，为什么这个人要入狱。
All the executive had to do was answer with a convincing story, and then the guy went back to the dungeon.
主管所要做的就是用一个令人信服的故事来回答，然后那个人就回到了地牢。
It's a right so elemental that it's in Article One of the United States Constitution.
这项权利是如此基本，以至于被写入美国宪法第一条。
It's one of the reasons we fought the Revolutionary War.
这是我们进行革命战争的原因之一。
And after the Supreme Court granted the detainees access to the courts, right away President Bush started talking like a habeas-loving King John.
在最高法院允许被拘留者出庭后，布什总统立即开始像热爱人身保护令的约翰国王一样说话。
Yeah, look, we are a nation of laws.
是的，看，我们是一个法治国家。
And to the extent that people say, well, America is no longer a nation of laws, that does hurt our reputation.
人们说，美国不再是一个法治国家，这确实损害了我们的声誉。
But I think it's an unfair criticism.
但我认为这是不公平的批评。
As you might remember, our courts have made a ruling.
您可能还记得，我们的法院已经做出了裁决。
They looked at the jurisdiction, the right of the people in Guantanamo to have habeas review, and so we're now complying with the court's decisions.
他们研究了管辖权以及关塔那摩人民接受人身保护令审查的权利，因此我们现在正在遵守法院的裁决。
The administration quickly put together a kind of hearing based in part on the old Geneva Conventions hearing they had abandoned.
政府迅速组织了一场听证会，部分基于他们放弃的旧《日内瓦公约》听证会。
They called this hearing a Combatant Status Review Tribunal, or in the elegant shorthand of the Pentagon, a CSRT.
他们将这次听证会称为“战斗人员地位审查法庭”，或者用五角大楼的优雅速记法，称为“CSRT”。
These new hearings have one oddity to them.
这些新的听证会有一个奇怪之处。
The tribunal assumes all the evidence against the detainee is correct.
法庭假定所有针对被拘留者的证据都是正确的。
If the detainee wants to prove them wrong, it will be difficult, because he's not allowed to see the evidence.
如果被拘留者想证明他们错了，那会很困难，因为他不被允许看到证据。
It's classified.
这是机密。
As a result, these hearings makes strange reading.
结果，这些听证会读起来很奇怪。
In many of them, there comes a moment in the dialogue like this one between detainee Abdul Malik and the judging panel.
在许多案件中，被拘留者阿卜杜勒·马利克和评审团之间的对话中都会出现这样的时刻。
They were each appointed a personal representative who is a military officer, who, in my case, met with my client the day before for 15 minutes, sat silent and failed to present all of the exculpatory evidence in his file, which, of course, any lawyer would have done, not the personal representative.
他们每人都被指定了一名私人代表，他是一名军官，就我而言，他在前一天与我的委托人会面了 15 分钟，沉默地坐着，没有提供他档案中的所有无罪证据，当然，任何律师都会这样做，而不是私人代表。
And as for confronting the evidence, consider the case of Azmy's client, Murat Kurnaz, a Turkish citizen raised in Germany.
至于面对证据，请考虑阿兹米的客户穆拉特·库尔纳兹（Murat Kurnaz）的案例，他是一位在德国长大的土耳其公民。
The Pentagon accidentally declassified the file, with all the secret evidence against him.
五角大楼意外解密了该文件，其中包含所有对他不利的秘密证据。
And here's what's in it: nothing.
这就是里面的内容：什么也没有。
The classified file contains-- The Washington Post wrote about it-- six statements from military intelligence.
《华盛顿邮报》报道称，这份机密文件包含来自军事情报部门的六份声明。
That's really what the classified file is.
这就是机密文件的真正含义。
You know, memos saying this person was here, so and so witnessed him.
你知道，备忘录说这个人在这里，某某人目睹了他。
In Kurnaz's case, there are five or six statements saying there's no evidence of any connection to Al Qaeda, the Taliban, or threat to the United States.
在库尔纳兹的案件中，有五六份声明称，没有证据表明与基地组织、塔利班或对美国的威胁有任何联系。
The Germans have concluded he's got no connection to Al Qaeda, there's no evidence linking him to the Taliban.
德国人得出的结论是，他与基地组织没有联系，也没有证据表明他与塔利班有联系。
Over and over and over again.
一遍又一遍。
But here's the thing.
但事情是这样的。
At the hearing, nobody talks about any of that.
在听证会上，没有人谈论这些。
His personal representative doesn't bring it up.
他的私人代表没有提及此事。
The tribunal doesn't consider it.
仲裁庭不予考虑。
And Kurnaz himself doesn't even know about it.
而库尔纳兹本人甚至不知道这件事。
He's declared an enemy combatant.
他被宣布为敌方战斗人员。
He's still at Guantanamo today.
他今天仍在关塔那摩。
But wait, there's more.
但等等，还有更多。
The reason they give for holding him: a friend of his named Selcuk Bilgin blew himself up as a suicide bomber in Turkey in 2003.
他们给出的拘留他的理由是：他的一位名叫塞尔丘克·比尔金 (Selcuk Bilgin) 的朋友 2003 年在土耳其作为自杀式炸弹袭击者引爆了自己。
That's two years after Kurnaz got picked up.
那是库尔纳兹被选中两年后。
So setting aside the sort of remarkable legal proposition that one could be detained indefinitely for what one's friend does, it's factually preposterous.
因此，抛开这种引人注目的法律主张，即一个人可能会因为朋友的所作所为而被无限期拘留，这实际上是荒谬的。
And a simple Google search or call to the Germans would have revealed that his friend is alive and well in Bremen and under no suspicion of any such thing.
简单的谷歌搜索或给德国人打电话就会发现，他的朋友在不莱梅还活着，而且安然无恙，而且没有任何此类事情的嫌疑。
You heard that right.
你没听错。
Kurnaz is in Guantanamo because two years after he got picked up, a guy he knows became a suicide bomber, except that he didn't become a suicide bomber, and is currently living in Germany.
库尔纳兹之所以被关在关塔那摩，是因为在他被抓获两年后，他认识的一个人成为了自杀式炸弹袭击者，只不过他没有成为自杀式炸弹袭击者，目前居住在德国。
Yeah, he's walking around in Germany.
是的，他正在德国闲逛。
I've met him.
我见过他。
Then there's a bunch of Chinese Muslims we accidentally picked up during our sweep in Afghanistan.
还有一群我们在阿富汗扫荡时无意中遇到的中国穆斯林。
They are an ethnic minority known as the Uighurs.
他们是一个被称为维吾尔族的少数民族。
And they've been battling the communist Chinese since World War II.
自第二次世界大战以来，他们一直在与共产主义中国作斗争。
Conservatives love the Uighurs, which is why they've been passionately defended by the National Review and the Weekly Standard .
保守派热爱维吾尔人，这就是为什么他们受到《国家评论》和《标准周刊》的热情捍卫。
After a corporate lawyer named Sabin Willett heard about them, he volunteered to represent a Uighur named Adel Abdul al-Hakim and some others.
一位名叫萨宾·威利特 (Sabin Willett) 的公司律师听说了他们的消息后，自愿代表一位名叫阿德尔·阿卜杜勒·哈基姆 (Adel Abdul al-Hakim) 的维吾尔族人以及其他一些人。
And he flew to Guantanamo to meet them.
他飞往关塔那摩与他们会面。
The main thing they wanted to talk about and that was so puzzling to them was that the previous May, the military had told them that they were, in their words, innocent.
他们想谈论的主要事情是，让他们感到困惑的是，去年五月，军方告诉他们，用他们的话说，他们是无辜的。
And why were they still here if they were innocent?
如果他们是无辜的，为什么还在这里？
So wait, what you're saying is, is that Adel and the other Uighurs are, in your opinion, have never been members of any kind of Al Qaeda or jihad, or anything like that.
等等，你的意思是，在你看来，阿德尔和其他维吾尔人从来都不是任何类型的基地组织或圣战组织或类似组织的成员。
Yeah.
是的。
It's not just my opinion.
这不仅仅是我的意见。
The defense department has determined that.
国防部已经确定了这一点。
That means they were never Al Qaeda, never Taliban, never any of that.
这意味着他们从来就不是基地组织，也不是塔利班，更不是任何一个。
The government says it would release Adel and the other Uighurs if only it could find a country to send them to.
政府表示，如果能找到一个国家将他们送往目的地，就会释放阿德尔和其他维吾尔人。
I have an idea.
我有一个主意。
Adel could sail 90 miles north to Miami, where there's an entire city of anti-communists.
阿德尔可以向北航行 90 英里到达迈阿密，那里有一整座反共分子城市。
Or he could be sent to one of the largest Uighur expat communities in Washington, DC.
或者他可以被派往华盛顿特区最大的维吾尔族侨民社区之一。
So why aren't we going to be seeing Adel any time soon?
那么为什么我们不能很快见到阿德尔呢？
Here's Willett.
这是威利特。
I'll tell you what I think the answer is, although no one from the government would admit this.
我会告诉你我认为的答案是什么，尽管政府没有人承认这一点。
I think the answer is that, if anybody actually met these guys, actually looked at them and took their pictures, and you know had them on TV shows or the radio, they'd be shocked.
我认为答案是，如果有人真正见过这些人，真正看着他们并拍下他们的照片，并且你知道让他们出现在电视节目或广播中，他们会感到震惊。
Because they've been told for four years that the people at Guantanamo are terrorists, and that they're the worst of the worst.
因为四年来他们一直被告知关塔那摩的人们是恐怖分子，而且他们是最坏的人中的最坏的人。
And you take a look at Adel, you're going to suddenly realize you've been lied to for a long time.
当你看看阿德尔，你会突然意识到你已经被欺骗了很长一段时间。
He struck me when I first met him like the kind of kid your college-age son would bring home, you know, his roommate, his buddy from college, home for the weekend.
当我第一次见到他时，他给我的印象就像你上大学的儿子会带回家的那种孩子，你知道，他的室友，他的大学好友，回家过周末。
People who meet Adel for the first time, they walk out of the meeting, and their jaw is a little bit unsprung.
第一次见到阿德尔的人走出会场时，下巴都有点没弹簧。
And they don't say much, because it's hitting them like a ton of bricks.
他们并没有说太多，因为这就像一大堆砖头一样打击着他们。
You know, this guy is in Guantanamo?
你知道，这个人在关塔那摩吗？
If Willett is right, this gets to the heart of habeas.
如果威利特是对的，这就是人身保护令的核心。
The whole point is that the king shouldn't have the right to just detain somebody because it'd be an embarrassment to have the guy free.
重点是国王不应该有权拘留某人，因为让这个人自由会很尴尬。
The Pentagon has an acronym for people like the Uighurs.
五角大楼有一个像维吾尔人这样的人的缩写。
It's pronounced "enlec." It means No Longer Enemy Combatant.
发音为“enlec”。这意味着不再是敌方战斗人员。
But as Willett notes, it should be Never Was Enemy Combatant.
但正如威利特指出的那样，它应该是“从未成为敌方战斗人员”。
The problem with creating an offshore legal limbo, where there's no habeas proceeding to separate the Al Qaeda fighter from the comedy writer, comes during interrogation.
造成离岸法律困境的问题是在审讯过程中出现的，即没有人身保护令将基地组织战士与喜剧作家分开。
If we've labeled them as terrorists, then that's how they get treated.
如果我们将他们标记为恐怖分子，那么他们就会受到这样的待遇。
Josh Colangelo-Bryan is a lawyer at Dorsey & Whitney in New York who volunteered at Guantanamo.
乔什·科兰杰洛-布莱恩 (Josh Colangelo-Bryan) 是纽约德汇律师事务所 (Dorsey & Whitney) 的一名律师，曾在关塔那摩担任志愿者。
He represents Juma al-Dossary.
他代表 Juma al-Dossary。
For a while, the government thought al-Dossary was a recruiter in America for Al Qaeda, possibly involved in the case known as the Lackawanna Seven.
有一段时间，政府认为多萨里是基地组织在美国的招募人员，可能涉及拉克瓦纳七人案。
But this is never brought up at his CSRT hearing.
但他的 CSRT 听证会上从未提及这一点。
Instead, the government simply states that he's Al Qaeda, and as proof lists the various places he's been.
相反，政府只是简单地声明他是基地组织，并列出了他去过的各个地方作为证据。
Afghanistan, Bosnia, Azerbaijan, the Pakistan border.
阿富汗、波斯尼亚、阿塞拜疆、巴基斯坦边境。
Supposedly, he was fighting in some of those places, but the government provides no evidence that.
据称，他在其中一些地方进行过战斗，但政府没有提供任何证据。
They don't quote witnesses.
他们不引用证人的话。
Nobody is on record saying he's Al Qaeda.
没有记录表明他是基地组织。
Here's Colangelo-Bryan.
这是科兰吉洛-布莱恩的报道。
What's interesting to me, when we talk about what he was behind in that part of the world, is the allegation that the US military makes against him, that he was, quote, "present at Tora Bora," close quote.
对我来说有趣的是，当我们谈论他在世界那个地区的幕后黑手时，美国军方对他提出的指控，引用他的话，“出现在托拉博拉”，紧密引用。
The military offers no allegations as to when Juma was supposedly in Tora Bora.
军方没有提供任何关于朱马何时出现在托拉博拉岛的指控。
It says nothing about what, supposedly, he was doing.
它没有说明他在做什么。
Simply that, at some point in history, he was present in that place.
简而言之，在历史的某个时刻，他出现在那个地方。
Now, Juma says that he's never been to Tora Bora.
现在，朱马说他从未去过托拉博拉岛。
And again, even if that allegation is true, frankly it doesn't prove anything.
再说一遍，即使该指控属实，坦率地说，它也不能证明任何事情。
Absent some evidence of some involvement in terrorist activity, I simply don't know how you can call someone a terrorist.
如果没有一些参与恐怖活动的证据，我根本不知道如何称某人为恐怖分子。
We tried out many of our new interrogation techniques on Juma al-Dossary.
我们在 Juma al-Dossary 上尝试了许多新的审讯技术。
Colangelo-Bryan met with him many times and catalogued what was done with him.
科兰吉洛-布莱恩多次与他会面，并记录了他的经历。
Al-Dossary said that Americans forced him to the ground and urinated on him.
多萨里说，美国人把他按倒在地，并向他撒尿。
We put out our cigarettes on him.
我们给他灭了烟。
We shocked him with an electric device.
我们用电子装置电击了他。
We spat on him.
我们向他吐口水。
We poured a hot cup of tea on his head.
我们把一杯热茶倒在他头上。
We told him that, quote, "we brought you here to kill you." We beat him until he vomited blood.
我们告诉他，引用的话，“我们把你带到这里来杀了你。”我们把他打得吐血。
We threatened to have him raped.
我们威胁要强奸他。
We dressed him in shorts and left him in a frigid, air-conditioned room.
我们给他穿上短裤，然后把他留在一个寒冷的空调房间里。
We abandoned him in another room with no water.
我们把他遗弃在另一个没有水的房间里。
We invited him to drink from his toilet bowl, which he did.
我们邀请他从马桶里喝水，他照做了。
We wrapped him in an Israeli flag.
我们用以色列国旗包裹着他。
We told him that we would hold him forever, and we told him that we would send him to Egypt to be tortured.
我们告诉他，我们将永远关押他，我们还告诉他，我们将把他送到埃及受酷刑。
On a different day, we chained him to the floor, and cut off his clothes while a female MP entered the room.
另一天，我们把他锁在地板上，并在一名女议员进入房间时剪掉他的衣服。
We dripped what we said was menstrual blood on his body.
我们把所谓的经血滴到了他的身上。
When he spat at us, we smeared this blood on his face.
当他向我们吐口水时，我们把血涂在他脸上。
We kissed the cross around our neck and said, "this is a gift from Christ for you Muslims." We videotaped the entire episode.
我们亲吻脖子上的十字架说：“这是基督给你们穆斯林的礼物。”我们录制了整个事件。
There's no way to confirm that all this happened to al-Dossary.
无法证实这一切是否发生在多萨里身上。
But other prisoners and officials at Guantanamo have described variations of every technique on the list, including the menstrual blood, the Israeli flag, the references to Christianity, the beatings, the sexual humiliation.
但关塔那摩监狱的其他囚犯和官员描述了清单上每项技术的变体，包括经血、以色列国旗、提及基督教、殴打、性羞辱。
Al-Dossary is interrogated still, about once a month.
阿尔·多萨里仍在接受审讯，大约每月一次。
During one visit last winter, he asked Colangelo-Bryan, what can I do to keep myself from going crazy?
在去年冬天的一次访问中，他问科兰杰洛-布莱恩，我能做些什么来防止自己发疯？
A few months later during a meeting, al-Dossary asked to go to the bathroom.
几个月后的一次会议上，多萨里要求去洗手间。
Colangelo-Bryan and the MP stepped outside the hut and waited.
科兰杰洛-布莱恩和议员走出小屋等待。
After five minutes Colangelo-Bryan got concerned.
五分钟后，科兰杰洛-布莱恩开始担心起来。
He cracked the door open.
他把门打开。
When I opened the door, the first thing I saw was a pool of blood on the floor in front of me.
当我打开门时，我首先看到的是我面前的地板上有一摊血。
I then looked up and saw a figure hanging.
然后我抬起头，看到一个人影悬挂着。
I yelled to the MPs for help.
我向国会议员呼救。
They then began to cut down the noose around Juma's neck.
然后他们开始割断朱马脖子上的绞索。
It wasn't al-Dossary's first suicide attempt.
这并不是多萨里第一次尝试自杀。
About three weeks later, I was back in Guantanamo.
大约三周后，我回到关塔那摩。
Juma said to me that he didn't want to kill himself without an outside witness.
朱马对我说，他不想在没有外界目击者的情况下自杀。
His fear was that if he died and only the military knew, nobody would have known what happened.
他担心，如果他死了，只有军方知道，没有人会知道发生了什么。
Of course, as we're often told, this war is different.
当然，正如我们经常被告知的那样，这场战争是不同的。
Who wants to be the one that let somebody go who then turns out to be the next 9/11 hijacker?
谁愿意成为那个放走某人然后成为下一个 9/11 劫机者的人呢？
So for the military, there is also this other new thing, a terrifying calculation that there can be no margin of error.
所以对于军队来说，还有另外一个新的东西，一个可怕的计算，不能有任何误差。
Joe Margulies of the University of Chicago represents a few detainees and has been trying to make sense of what's happened at Guantanamo.
芝加哥大学的乔·马古利斯代表一些被拘留者，一直试图弄清楚关塔那摩发生的事情。
If we give them the benefit of the doubt, it is possible-- and there's a lot of evidence to support this-- they had no idea who they were going to be capturing, and they thought they might get more serious people, people who are more seriously involved.
如果我们相信他们是无辜的，有可能——并且有很多证据支持这一点——他们不知道他们要抓捕谁，他们认为他们可能会抓到更认真的人，更认真参与的人。
The reality is those people never came to Guantanamo.
现实是这些人从未来到关塔那摩。
The most serious folks are the ones in CIA custody, of which there are approximately 30, 27, 30, something like that.
最严肃的人是被中央情报局拘留的人，其中大约有 30、27、30 之类的。
Those are the people in black sites that we don't even know where they are.
这些人在黑色网站上，我们甚至不知道他们在哪里。
The people of any significance never arrived at Guantanamo.
任何重要人物都从未抵达过关塔那摩。
But they didn't know that when the base opened.
但他们并不知道基地何时开放。
And they said at the time that these were the worst of the worst.
他们当时表示，这是最糟糕的情况中的最糟糕的情况。
They were trained killers.
他们是训练有素的杀手。
They would gnaw through hydraulic lines to bring down the plane that was flying them to Guantanamo.
他们会咬断液压管线，击落载他们飞往关塔那摩的飞机。
I mean, they used the most inflammatory rhetoric.
我的意思是，他们使用了最具煽动性的言论。
And it very quickly became apparent that they were just mistaken.
很快人们就发现他们错了。
And then they were stuck with this PR nightmare.
然后他们就陷入了这场公关噩梦。
And at the same time, there was this sense, this nagging sense, that, well, maybe they are really bad but we just can't find out.
与此同时，还有一种感觉，一种挥之不去的感觉，好吧，也许它们真的很糟糕，但我们就是无法找出答案。
Maybe they're not Afghan dirt farmers, as all appearances seem to be.
也许他们并不是阿富汗的土农，正如表面上看起来的那样。
How do we really know?
我们怎么知道呢？
Maybe we need to use more aggressive techniques to find out.
也许我们需要使用更激进的技术来找出答案。
So they kept turning up the heat, and using more and more coercive techniques on people who were less and less significant.
所以他们不断地加大力度，对那些越来越不重要的人使用越来越多的强制手段。
In this new war, the plan was to build a prison so bleak that the detainees would give up hope and talk.
在这场新的战争中，计划是建造一座如此荒凉的监狱，让被拘留者放弃希望并开口说话。
The military was given a mission, and they did a good job.
军队被赋予了使命，他们做得很好。
But many prisoners are now moving into year five.
但许多囚犯现在已进入五年级。
If they're Al Qaeda, detainment is perfectly justified.
如果他们是基地组织，拘留是完全合理的。
No one argues that.
没有人争论这一点。
But think about what these incarcerations are for men wrongfully and indefinitely detained.
但想想这些监禁对于被错误和无限期拘留的男性来说意味着什么。
It's like being buried alive in a coffin.
就像被活埋在棺材里一样。
Nobody knows how many of the prisoners are, in fact, the worst of the worst and how many are innocent, but we have a way to find out.
事实上，没有人知道有多少囚犯是最糟糕的，有多少是无辜的，但我们有办法找出答案。
It's called habeas corpus.
它被称为人身保护令。
Jack Hitt.
杰克·希特.
Coming up, the most popular poem among prisoners at Guantanamo, or if not the most popular, at least it is very, very popular, we're told.
我们被告知，这首诗即将在关塔那摩囚犯中最受欢迎，即使不是最受欢迎，至少也非常非常受欢迎。
That is in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Our program today, Habeas Schmabeas, stories from Guantanamo.
我们今天的节目，人身保护令，来自关塔那摩的故事。
So where do things stand now?
那么现在情况如何呢？
Well, in 2005, the President signed into law a bill that had solid bipartisan support that would end habeas rights forever for Guantanamo detainees.
2005 年，总统签署了一项获得两党坚定支持的法案，该法案将永远终止关塔那摩被拘留者的人身保护权。
Whether that law is going to stand and whether detainees are going to get fairer hearings than the military CSRTs is actually still up in the air and is going to be resolved by the courts in the coming months and years.
该法律是否会有效，以及被拘留者是否会得到比军事CSRT更公平的听证会，实际上仍然悬而未决，并将在未来几个月和几年内由法院解决。
This actually brings us to Act Two of our show.
这实际上把我们带到了节目的第二幕。
Act Two, September 11, 1660.
第二幕，1660 年 9 月 11 日。
Habeas rights were originally created in England.
人身保护权最初诞生于英国。
And in one of the Supreme Court cases on this issue, 175 members of the British Parliament filed a friend of the court brief, an amicus brief, the first time in Supreme Court history that this has happened.
在最高法院就此问题审理的一个案件中，175 名英国议会议员提交了法庭之友陈述，即法庭之友陈述，这在最高法院历史上还是第一次。
And they argued, first of all, that British citizens being held at Guantanamo deserved better than when they were getting in terms of these rights.
他们认为，首先，被关押在关塔那摩的英国公民应该比他们获得时更好地享有这些权利。
And they also said, essentially, are you guys nuts?
他们还说，本质上，你们疯了吗？
This is from their brief, "as members of Parliament of Westminster, amici have a duty to protect human rights and fundamental freedoms against the misuse of public power, the due process of law deeply rooted in Anglo-American legal and political heritage.
这是摘自他们的简报，“作为威斯敏斯特议会的议员，法庭之友有责任保护人权和基本自由，防止公共权力被滥用，正当法律程序深深植根于英美法律和政治传统中。
The exercise of executive power without possibility of judicial review jeopardizes the keystone of our existence as nations, namely the rule of law, as well as the effective protection of human rights.
在没有司法审查的情况下行使行政权力危及我们作为国家存在的基石，即法治以及对人权的有效保护。
They also pointed out the history of habeas, how, after World War II, Winston Churchill wanted to suspend habeas rights for Nazi leaders and just shoot them.
他们还指出了人身保护令的历史，二战后，温斯顿·丘吉尔如何想要暂停纳粹领导人的人身保护权并直接枪杀他们。
And it was the United States which argued for habeas and for trials, which led to the Nuremberg Trials.
正是美国主张人身保护和审判，导致了纽伦堡审判。
They also, finally, pointed out how badly it had gone the last time that they, in England, tried to suspend habeas like this in the 1600s, they write.
他们还写道，最后，他们还指出，上一次他们在英国试图在 1600 年代像这样暂停人身保护令时，情况有多糟糕。
During the British civil war, the British created their own version of Guantanamo Bay and dispatched undesirable prisoners to garrisons off the mainland beyond the reach of habeas corpus relief.
英国内战期间，英国人创建了自己的关塔那摩湾，并将不受欢迎的囚犯派遣到人身保护令无法触及的大陆外的驻军。
The guy who did that was named Lord Clarendon.
这样做的人名叫克拉伦登勋爵。
And in England, one of our regular contributors, Jon Ronson, decided to look into it.
在英格兰，我们的定期撰稿人之一乔恩·罗森 (Jon Ronson) 决定对此进行调查。
So it turns out that the last person to come up with this exact same way to sidestep habeas corpus is a lord I have never heard of, a not-household-name lord called Clarendon.
事实证明，最后一个想出同样方法来规避人身保护令的人是一位我从未听说过的领主，一位名叫克拉伦登的不知名领主。
Who was he?
他是谁？
I went to a professional, Tony McDonnell, who said he'd take me to Clarendon's grave in Westminster Abbey.
我去找了一位专业人士托尼·麦克唐纳，他说他会带我去威斯敏斯特教堂克拉伦登的坟墓。
Yes, we're here in the south aisle of Westminster Abbey.
是的，我们在威斯敏斯特教堂的南过道。
Notice we just passed Charles Darwin's grave.
请注意，我们刚刚经过查尔斯·达尔文的坟墓。
You said you were showing an American party around and somebody spat--
你说你正在带一个美国派对参观，有人吐口水——
Spat on it.
吐口水在上面。
Jon Ronson --spat at Charles Darwin's grave.
乔恩·罗森——向查尔斯·达尔文的坟墓吐口水。
On Darwin's grave, yes.
在达尔文的坟墓上，是的。
And wanted to know why he was buried here.
并想知道他为什么被埋在这里。
And we just passed the spot where Elton John sang "Candle In The Wind" at Princess Diana's funeral.
我们刚刚经过埃尔顿·约翰在戴安娜王妃葬礼上演唱《风中蜡烛》的地方。
Yes, that was in front of Lord Stanhope's memorial in the nave.
是的，那是在中殿斯坦霍普勋爵纪念碑前。
You have to be famous, or a great royalist, or at least someone who worked here, like an organist, to be buried here.
你必须是名人，或者是伟大的保皇党人，或者至少是在这里工作过的人，比如风琴师，才能被埋葬在这里。
Tony is a historian and a blue badge guide, an official Westminster tour guide.
托尼是一位历史学家和蓝徽章导游，也是威斯敏斯特官方导游。
He took me down corridors and through chambers until we came to a flagstone on the floor.
他带我穿过走廊，穿过房间，直到我们来到地板上的一块石板前。
Lord Clarendon's grave.
克拉伦登勋爵的坟墓。
He's in vaulted company.
他在拱顶公司。
Henry V is buried just to his left.
亨利五世被埋葬在他的左边。
And Elizabeth I lies a couple of yards in front of him.
伊丽莎白一世就躺在他面前几码处。
Tony explains who Lord Clarendon was.
托尼解释了克拉伦登勋爵是谁。
He was, for want a better word, nowadays he'd probably be called the prime minister, and he was the main adviser to the king.
他是，如果想要一个更好的词，现在他可能会被称为首相，他是国王的主要顾问。
So Clarendon had this job.
所以克拉伦登得到了这份工作。
He was the king's advisor, in the middle of a civil war, in which the king was killed.
他是国王的顾问，在内战期间，国王被杀。
There were two sides.
有两个方面。
You've got the Monarchists, and then you've got the Puritans, who murdered the king because they saw the kingdom as debauched and decadent.
有君主主义者，然后有清教徒，他们谋杀了国王，因为他们认为这个王国放荡和颓废。
Now, I know you Americans see Puritans as kindly settlers, constantly sitting down to Thanksgiving dinner.
现在，我知道你们美国人将清教徒视为善良的定居者，经常坐下来吃感恩节晚餐。
We see them as bastards.
我们视他们为私生子。
They were religious fundamentalists.
他们是宗教原教旨主义者。
In other words they were--
换句话说，他们是——
Men who believed that all they had to do was to overthrow the government, and the reign of Jesus Christ would come once more among them.
人们相信他们所要做的就是推翻政府，耶稣基督的统治就会再次降临在他们中间。
So this was a battle of civilization.
所以这是一场文明之战。
It was a battle of religious ideologies.
这是一场宗教意识形态之战。
It was most definitely a battle of religious ideology.
这绝对是一场宗教意识形态之战。
So as Puritans, were they seen to be kind of crazy religious fundamentalists.
作为清教徒，他们是否被视为疯狂的宗教原教旨主义者。
Some of the people were, and they were among the most persecuted after The Restoration.
其中一些人是，而且他们是复辟后受迫害最严重的人之一。
The Restoration, this is when the whole sending people away to offshore islands with dubious sovereignty business took place.
维新时期，整个送人到主权可疑的离岛的事情就发生了。
It was the period after the war.
那是战后时期。
The Puritans had been defeated.
清教徒被击败了。
The king, Charles II, was restored to power along with his main adviser, Lord Clarendon.
国王查理二世和他的主要顾问克拉伦登勋爵一起重新掌权。
Consider what it was like for Clarendon and the Monarchists.
想想克拉伦登和君主主义者的感受。
They'd been in exile for years.
他们已经流亡多年。
Many of their friends and supporters had been locked up or killed.
他们的许多朋友和支持者被关押或杀害。
The Puritans had been vicious.
清教徒是恶毒的。
They had killed the king, and many of the men who had done it were still at large, plotting out there.
他们杀了国王，而许多凶手仍然逍遥法外，在那里密谋。
It was a 9/11-style trauma, and Clarendon behaved in a traumatized way.
这是一次 9/11 式的创伤，克拉伦登的行为方式也受到了创伤。
He probably was paranoid to some extent.
他可能在某种程度上有些偏执。
The whole of the new establishment were paranoid.
整个新机构都充满了偏执。
They saw plots everywhere.
他们到处都看到了阴谋。
And there was a theme of retribution in the air.
空气中弥漫着报应的气氛。
Some people say they had good reason to be paranoid.
有些人说他们有充分的理由偏执。
Well, these people had done the most unimaginable horrific act.
好吧，这些人做出了最令人难以想象的可怕行为。
They had killed the king.
他们杀死了国王。
They had killed the king.
他们杀死了国王。
They had views that would have led to anarchy.
他们的观点会导致无政府状态。
And they were capable of anything is what would have been said.
可以说，他们无所不能。
That's why they were put where they were.
这就是为什么他们被安置在原来的地方。
And it was for the safety of all of us, and we're doing you all a favor.
这是为了我们所有人的安全，我们是在帮你们大家一个忙。
Heaven knows what would have happened.
天知道会发生什么。
They were wicked people, and those were the people who were then shipped off by Clarendon.
他们都是邪恶的人，这些人就是后来被克拉伦登运走的人。
The exact location of Lord Clarendon's Guantanamo is lost to history.
克拉伦登勋爵的关塔那摩监狱的确切位置已被历史遗忘。
It was probably in Jersey, or Guernsey, which today are rather nice seaside tax havens for the rich.
可能是在泽西岛或根西岛，这些地方如今对于富人来说是相当不错的海滨避税天堂。
But suspending habeas corpus didn't work out well for Lord Clarendon.
但暂停人身保护令对克拉伦登勋爵来说效果不佳。
He was impeached.
他被弹劾了。
At his impeachment trial, he was accused of sending people away to, quote, "remote islands, garrisons, and other places, thereby to prevent them from the benefit of the law, and to produce precedents for the imprisoning of any other of His Majesty's subjects in like manner."
在弹劾审判中，他被指控将人们送往“偏远的岛屿、驻军和其他地方，从而阻止他们享受法律的好处，并为以类似方式监禁任何其他国王陛下的臣民创造先例”。
And remember, democracy as we know it is still centuries away.
请记住，我们所知道的民主还有几个世纪的时间。
Innocent until proven guilty.
在被证明有罪之前是无罪的。
One man, one vote.
一人一票。
Only the most extreme radicals held these views.
只有最极端的激进分子才持有这些观点。
These were dark times.
那是一段黑暗时期。
There were heads on spikes all over London.
伦敦各地都有尖刺上的头颅。
And still, the people were shocked by Clarendon's disregard for habeas corpus.
尽管如此，人们还是对克拉伦登对人身保护令的无视感到震惊。
People took it seriously.
人们认真对待它。
And they would have bandied it about with each other, this idea that you had to produce somebody and accuse them in law, in front of their own peers.
他们会互相谈论这个想法，即你必须找一个人并在他们自己的同辈面前通过法律指控他们。
And the parallels are so obvious when you read the history of habeas corpus and the amount of times it's just been suspended.
当你阅读人身保护令的历史以及它被暂停的次数时，相似之处是非常明显的。
That is what they all always do.
这就是他们总是做的事情。
They say that these people are capable of anything.
他们说这些人有能力做任何事情。
These people do not hold the same values as we do.
这些人的价值观与我们不同。
They're out to destroy our way of life.
他们的目的是破坏我们的生活方式。
It's more or less the same situation.
情况或多或少是一样的。
The one outcome of all of this was the Habeas Corpus Act of 1679, which specifically forbade what Clarendon had done and made it illegal to send a prisoner, quote, "into Scotland, Ireland, Jersey, Guernsey, Tangier, or into parts, garrisons, islands, or places beyond the seas, which are, or at any time hereafter shall be within or without the dominions of His Majesty." And forbade at his remains for 330 years.
所有这一切的结果之一是1679年的《人身保护令法》，该法明确禁止克拉伦登的所作所为，并规定将囚犯“送入苏格兰、爱尔兰、泽西岛、根西岛、丹吉尔，或送入属于或今后任何时候属于国王陛下管辖范围之内或之外的部分地区、驻军、岛屿或海外地方”都是非法的。并在 330 年内禁止他的遗骸。
In England, anyway.
无论如何，在英格兰。
Jon Ronson.
乔恩·罗森.
He does documentaries for the BBC and is the author of the book, Them .
他为 BBC 制作纪录片，也是《他们》一书的作者。
Act Three, We interrogate the Detainees.
第三幕，我们审问被拘留者。
Yes, the US military had their chance with them.
是的，美军有机会对付他们。
In this act, Jack Hitt talks to two former detainees from Guantanamo.
在这一幕中，杰克·希特与关塔那摩的两名前被拘留者交谈。
One of these guys, you've heard a little bit from earlier in our show, Badr Zaman Badr, the guy who ran the satirical magazine, in Pashto, with his brother in Pakistan.
其中一个人，你在我们节目的早期部分已经听说过，巴德尔·扎曼·巴德尔（Badr Zaman Badr），他和他在巴基斯坦的兄弟用普什图语经营讽刺杂志。
The other guy was 19 when he was picked up.
另一个人被接走时才 19 岁。
Abdullah al Noaimi, a kid from well to do family in Bahrain.
阿卜杜拉·诺艾米 (Abdullah al Noaimi) 是巴林一个富裕家庭的孩子。
Here's Jack.
这是杰克。
Abdullah wound up in American custody the way a lot of the men at Guantanamo did.
阿卜杜拉最终被美国拘留，就像关塔那摩的许多人一样。
He was a foreigner in Pakistan, and we were offering bounties for guys like that.
他是巴基斯坦的外国人，我们为这样的人提供赏金。
Remember Murat Kurnaz, the guy whose friend was supposedly a suicide bomber?
还记得穆拉特·库纳兹（Murat Kurnaz）吗？他的朋友据说是一名自杀式炸弹袭击者？
And Juma al-Dossary?
还有朱马·多萨里（Juma al-Dossary）？
The same thing happened to them.
同样的事情也发生在他们身上。
In Abdullah's case, he was first taken to Kandahar, to a makeshift prison the US set up at an air base with about 20 men to a tent.
就阿卜杜拉而言，他首先被带到坎大哈，这是美国在一个空军基地设立的临时监狱，一个帐篷里关着大约 20 名男子。
When we first go in Kandahar, I was surprised.
当我们第一次去坎大哈时，我很惊讶。
I had never seen those pictures, or those views, only in ancient movies, like dark ages.
我从来没有见过那些图片，或者那些景色，只在古代电影里见过，比如黑暗时代。
We were chained by the legs, like shackled.
我们的腿被锁住了，就像戴上了脚镣一样。
And they ordered us to pick up rocks.
他们命令我们捡起石头。
Can you imagine this?
你能想象这个吗？
They said you should pick up the rocks on the ground, like, put it all together in a pile.
他们说你应该捡起地上的石头，比如把它们堆在一起。
There was no water to make ablution or to take a shower.
没有水可以洗澡或洗礼。
Badr, the satirist, was taken to that same air base at Kandahar.
讽刺作家巴德尔被带到坎大哈的同一个空军基地。
The MPs were treating us very harshly.
国会议员对待我们非常严厉。
We had to be on our knees for long hours and to put our hands on our head.
我们必须长时间跪下，并将双手放在头上。
And mostly they used the word [BLEEP], and they used to tell us to put our [BLEEP] hand on our [BLEEP] heads.
他们大多使用 [BLEEP] 这个词，他们常常告诉我们将 [BLEEP] 手放在 [BLEEP] 头上。
And we didn't like that.
我们不喜欢这样。
in the camps, Badr got separated from his brother, the poet.
在集中营里，巴德尔与他的诗人兄弟失散了。
So he devised a way to find him.
于是他想出了一个办法来找到他。
The detainees didn't have toilets.
被拘留者没有厕所。
Instead, they got a bucket, which got filled up with what Badr modestly calls "dirt." Every day, some detainee got chosen to empty the buckets.
相反，他们得到了一个桶，里面装满了巴德尔谦虚地称之为“泥土”的东西。每天都会选择一些被拘留者来倒水桶。
Badr volunteered.
巴德尔是自愿的。
Because I wanted to meet my brother, to go from tent to tent.
因为我想见见我的兄弟，从一个帐篷到另一个帐篷。
I saw my brother when he was giving me his bucket to empty.
当我哥哥把他的水桶交给我倒空时，我看到了他。
That was spring time.
那是春天。
He said, "what a spring it is, when there are no flowers, and instead of the smell of the flowers, we have this dirt smell." I can't translate it actually.
他说：“这是多么好的春天啊，没有花，没有花的味道，只有泥土的味道。”其实我翻译不出来。
When it is in Pashto, these are really good beautiful lines.
当用普什图语写时，这些诗句真的很漂亮。
The sanitary conditions were just as bad, if not worse, for Abdullah.
对于阿卜杜拉来说，卫生条件即使不是更糟，也同样糟糕。
The tent he shared with other detainees was open on all sides and located at the end of the military airstrip.
他与其他被拘留者共用的帐篷四面敞开，位于军用机场的尽头。
Every takeoff and landing meant a tornado of dirt, the literal kind, blasted through.
每一次起飞和降落都意味着一场真正的龙卷风般的灰尘被席卷而过。
In the first few days, he heard the other prisoners in the tent talking about their interrogations.
刚开始的几天，他听到帐篷里的其他犯人谈论着他们的审讯。
They told me that they had electric shocks on them.
他们告诉我他们受到了电击。
And one of them was threatened to be raped.
其中一名被威胁要被强奸。
And they took off his pants.
他们脱掉了他的裤子。
And it was like, I was thinking, well, what am I going to do?
就像，我在想，好吧，我该怎么办？
They took me at night.
他们晚上带我去。
There was two interrogators.
有两名审讯者。
They wanted me to say that I was a terrorist.
他们要我说我是恐怖分子。
I told them, "no, I'm not," and everything.
我告诉他们，“不，我不是”，等等。
Then, they started pushing me and everything.
然后，他们开始逼迫我和一切。
And then they brought a cigarette that the interrogator was smoking.
然后他们带来了审讯者正在抽的香烟。
He blew the smoke on my face.
他把烟吹到我脸上。
Then he came very close, very, very close to my face, and brought the cigarette between my eyes, and he said, "I swear to God, I'm going to put it on your forehead if you don't tell me what I want to hear."
然后他离我的脸非常近，非常非常近，把香烟放在我的两眼之间，他说：“我向上帝发誓，如果你不告诉我我想听的话，我就把它放在你的额头上。”
I thought about it.
我想了一下。
I thought that, I felt like this is a jungle, and only the strong lives in it.
我想，我感觉这里就像是一个丛林，只有强者才能在其中生存。
But still, there is a small creature that can live, but not by facing the lions, or facing big animals.
但仍然有一种小生物可以生存，但不是面对狮子，也不是面对大型动物。
No. But by maybe hiding, or changing their colors as the trees.
不，但也许可以隐藏起来，或者像树木一样改变它们的颜色。
So I just told him, "whatever you want to hear from me I'm going to tell you.
所以我只是告诉他，“无论你想从我这里听到什么，我都会告诉你。
What do you want me to say?" He says, "say that you are a terrorist."
你想让我说什么？”他说，“说你是恐怖分子。”
"You want me to say I'm a terrorist?
“你想让我说我是恐怖分子？
Are you going to let me go?
你要放我走吗？
Are you going to let me go to sleep?" Because they always torture, like, not keeping me asleep, by keeping me awake all the time.
你会让我睡觉吗？”因为他们总是折磨我，比如不让我睡觉，让我一直保持清醒。
So, I tell them, "OK, I'm going to tell you whatever you want.
所以，我告诉他们，“好吧，我会告诉你任何你想要的。
Yeah, I'm a terrorist, and go tell your bosses." And they left me.
是的，我是一名恐怖分子，去告诉你的老板吧。”然后他们就离开了我。
This is not how he thought things would go with the Americans.
他认为美国人的事情不会这样发展。
In fact, back when he was being held in a Pakistan jail, when he found out that Americans would be taking them, he was relieved.
事实上，当他被关押在巴基斯坦监狱时，当他发现美国人会带走他们时，他松了一口气。
He told the other prisoners it was good news.
他告诉其他囚犯这是个好消息。
He knew America.
他了解美国。
He knew how the people were.
他知道人们的情况。
I lived so many places like Europe, and England, and Germany, and France.
我住过很多地方，比如欧洲、英国、德国和法国。
But the difference was that, in the States, everywhere you go they welcome you.
但不同的是，在美国，无论你走到哪里，他们都欢迎你。
Like, when you go in the supermarket, everybody goes, like, how you doing, and everything.
就像，当你走进超市时，每个人都会说，你在做什么，以及一切。
That's the thing that was in my mind.
这就是我心里的想法。
I was pleased.
我很高兴。
Oh, everything's going to be fine.
哦，一切都会好起来的。
They can understand.
他们能理解。
So how did he know so much about American supermarkets?
那么他是怎么对美国超市了解这么多的呢？
Well, in 1994, he came to America for the World Cup finals.
嗯，1994年，他来到美国参加世界杯决赛。
In fact, Abdullah has been here a lot.
事实上，阿卜杜拉已经来过这里很多次了。
He's been downhill skiing in the Midwest.
他一直在中西部进行高山滑雪。
He attended Old Dominion University in Virginia for a while, and has taken other trips, too.
他曾在弗吉尼亚州的奥多明尼恩大学学习过一段时间，也曾去过其他地方。
And in '96, I was in Disneyland.
96 年，我在迪士尼乐园。
We were in Orlando.
我们当时在奥兰多。
For spring break, I was in Daytona Beach with some of my friends.
春假期间，我和一些朋友在代托纳海滩。
[LAUGHING] You were in Daytona Beach for spring break?
[笑] 你在代托纳海滩度春假？
Yeah, it was year 2000.
是的，那是2000年。
Biker's Week.
骑车人周。
I remember the guys, young guys, standing by that sidewalk, having the signs for the cars passing.
我记得那些家伙，年轻人，站在人行道上，举着汽车经过的标志。
Some expression written on it, "show us--"
上面写着一些表情，“向我们展示——”
Show us, oh right.
告诉我们，哦，对了。
[LAUGHING] Ah, yes.
[笑]啊，是的。
That expression.
那个表情。
The show us your--
向我们展示你的——
Yeah, that expression.
是啊，就是这个表情。
That's the most I remember about Daytona.
这是我对代托纳最多的记忆。
So a year after seeing the sights at Daytona Beach, Abdullah found himself facing an American interrogator in Kandahar.
因此，在看到代托纳海滩的景象一年后，阿卜杜拉发现自己在坎大哈面临着一名美国审讯者。
I got shocked.
我很震惊。
I got shocked when the first interview guy kept cursing me, up and down, cursing my father, cursing my family, cursing my country, cursing my government, everything.
当第一个采访者不断咒骂我时，我感到震惊，咒骂我的父亲，咒骂我的家庭，咒骂我的国家，咒骂我的政府，一切。
Why?
为什么？
That was the question I wanted to know.
这就是我想知道的问题。
Like, what was going on?
就像，发生了什么事？
Like, do I know you?
比如，我认识你吗？
What do you have against me?
你跟我有什么仇怨？
What did I do to you?
我对你做了什么？
Badr had learned of the West from more scholarly sources.
巴德尔从更多的学术来源了解了西方。
He's a big fan of the Canterbury Tales and Gulliver's Travels.
他是《坎特伯雷故事集》和《格列佛游记》的忠实粉丝。
And he also knew about the Geneva Conventions, and spoke up when he realised they weren't going to apply.
他还了解《日内瓦公约》，当他意识到这些公约不适用时，他就发声了。
Actually, our complaint was that they were not accepting us as prisoners of war, they're not giving us those rights.
事实上，我们的抱怨是他们没有接受我们作为战俘，他们没有给予我们这些权利。
And actually, they were just running away from American legal system.
事实上，他们只是在逃避美国的法律体系。
I mean, I have told my interrogators many times, if we are really guilty, why won't they put us on trial in American courts?
我的意思是，我已经多次告诉审讯者，如果我们真的有罪，为什么他们不把我们送上美国法庭受审？
Finally Badr and Adbullah were each taken out of the camps at Kandahar and put on a plane to Guantanamo.
最后，巴德尔和阿德布拉分别被带出坎大哈的难民营，并登上飞往关塔那摩的飞机。
Remember, this is an international flight from Afghanistan to Cuba, over 20 hours long.
请记住，这是从阿富汗飞往古巴的国际航班，飞行时间超过 20 小时。
We were handcuffed.
我们被戴上手铐。
And the handcuffs were tied to our stomachs.
手铐还绑在我们的肚子上。
And there's a chain connected to our legs.
我们的腿上连着一根链条。
Other detainees next to you, like, stuck to you.
你旁边的其他被拘留者就像粘在你身上一样。
And we had masks, through which we can hardly breath.
我们戴着口罩，戴着口罩我们几乎无法呼吸。
We could not hear, we could not see.
我们听不到，也看不到。
We can even not touch.
我们甚至可以不碰。
So they had to stop all senses completely.
所以他们必须完全停止所有感官。
To have hearing, seeing, tasting, smelling, those things only a human can have.
拥有听觉、视觉、味觉、嗅觉，这些只有人类才能拥有。
Once they got to Guantanamo, both Badr and Abdullah described being stripped naked, medically examined, and then put into cages until a new round of interrogations began.
巴德尔和阿卜杜拉一抵达关塔那摩，就被脱光衣服接受医学检查，然后关进笼子里，直到新一轮审讯开始。
Mostly they used to ask questions about the relief organizations and how they get money, and why people hate Americans.
他们通常会询问有关救援组织、他们如何获得资金以及为什么人们讨厌美国人的问题。
And so.
所以。
And there have been even stupid questions.
甚至还有一些愚蠢的问题。
Like?
喜欢？
Badr Zaman Badr There have been stupid questions that if you have seen Osama bin Laden or Mullah Omar, if you intend to attack Americans?
Badr Zaman Badr 有人提出了一些愚蠢的问题，如果你见过奥萨马·本·拉登或毛拉·奥马尔，你是否打算攻击美国人？
As if I know Osama bin Laden.
好像我认识奥萨马·本·拉登一样。
I was like shocked, I'm 19 years old.
我当时就震惊了，我已经19岁了。
Abdullah and Badr, by the way, arrived at different times at the base and never knew each other.
顺便说一句，阿卜杜拉和巴德尔在不同时间到达基地，而且彼此素不相识。
But they both described meeting lots of ordinary people, farmers, teachers, cab drivers, who were also sold to the Americans.
但他们都描述了遇到了很多普通人、农民、教师、出租车司机，他们也被卖给了美国人。
Abdullah talked to one guy who has sold by his own father-in-law.
阿卜杜拉与一位被自己岳父卖掉的人交谈过。
Badr met men who had never even heard of Osama bin Laden.
巴德尔遇到了一些从未听说过奥萨马·本·拉登的人。
After a while, some of them couldn't help but showcase the absurdity of the situation.
过了一会儿，他们中的一些人忍不住表现出了这种情况的荒谬。
Like, for example, one guy, he's a very funny guy, they took him to interrogation.
比如说，有一个人，他是一个非常有趣的人，他们把他带去审讯。
Every day, they took him there for more than 20 hours, keep him awake and have very loud disco music.
他们每天带他去那里20多个小时，让他保持清醒，并播放非常吵闹的迪斯科音乐。
The lights, like, circling all over his eyes and all over the place.
灯光就像在他的眼睛周围和整个地方盘旋一样。
And then, after so many days, under those circumstances, that person just stood up, held the interrogator's hands, and kept dancing with him.
然后，这么多天，在这种情况下，那个人就站起来，握住审讯者的手，一直和他一起跳舞。
[LAUGHING] Abdullah Al Noaimi Yeah, seriously, he kept shaking his body.
[笑] Abdullah Al Noaimi 是的，说真的，他一直在摇晃身体。
And the interrogator was going to have a nervous breakdown.
审讯者快要精神崩溃了。
Abdullah was originally arrested while traveling in Pakistan.
阿卜杜拉最初是在巴基斯坦旅行时被捕的。
A man offered him a meal and a place to rest and later turned him over to the Army for the bounty.
一名男子为他提供了一顿饭和一个休息的地方，后来把他交给了陆军以获得赏金。
Abdullah says he saw the money change hands at the jail.
阿卜杜拉说，他看到钱在监狱里易手。
Once in American custody, he was accused of traveling to Afghanistan and proclaiming his desire to carry out Jihad.
在被美国拘留后，他被指控前往阿富汗并宣称希望进行圣战。
Sometimes, to get to us, or to put the stress on us, they come and ask, like "do you want to go home?" They don't want to take me home, but they are just asking to make you angry and nervous that you'll never go home, and keep telling you those things.
有时，为了接近我们，或者给我们施加压力，他们会过来问我们，比如“你想回家吗？”他们不想带我回家，但他们只是想让你生气和紧张，因为你永远不会回家，然后一直告诉你这些事情。
But to respond, I tell them the same thing, "No, thanks.
但为了回应，我告诉他们同样的事情，“不，谢谢。
I don't want to go home.
我不想回家。
I'm OK here.
我在这里还好。
I like you so much and I don't want to leave you."
我非常喜欢你，我不想离开你。”
[LAUGHING] Now, did they just, did they think you're a smart ass?
[笑] 现在，他们是否认为你是个聪明人？
I mean, how did they react to that?
我的意思是，他们对此有何反应？
They got surprised the first time.
他们第一次感到惊讶。
But then they got used to it, because everybody was saying it.
但后来他们就习惯了，因为每个人都这么说。
Even if they, for example, stop you from food, stop you from sleeping, stop you from talking, I don't know why, you just keep smiling.
例如，即使他们不让你吃饭，不让你睡觉，不让你说话，我不知道为什么，你只是保持微笑。
So much of what we hear about Guantanamo is about the harsh treatment there, but of course, like any place, the days mostly pass in boredom.
我们听到的关于关塔那摩的很多信息都是关于那里的残酷待遇，但当然，就像任何地方一样，日子大多是在无聊中度过的。
The interrogators might be rough, but the MPs and guards who had to spend time with the detainees sometimes would get comfortable and start talking to the prisoners.
审讯者可能很粗暴，但必须与被拘留者共度时光的议员和警卫有时会感到舒服并开始与囚犯交谈。
They asked me, tell me the truth, are you a terrorist or not?
他们问我，告诉我实话，你是不是恐怖分子？
They were told that I am a terrorist, but they still ask me.
他们被告知我是恐怖分子，但他们仍然问我。
Why?
为什么？
Because of doubts in their heart.
因为他们心中的疑惑。
They still have doubt those people are not, they don't seem like as we've heard.
他们仍然怀疑那些人不是，他们看起来不像我们听说的那样。
And then we start talking and talking and talking.
然后我们开始聊啊聊啊。
Most of the guards, they told me that, when I first came here, I was trained that everybody over here is like monsters.
大多数警卫告诉我，当我第一次来这里时，我接受的训练是，这里的每个人都像怪物。
They're going to jump from the cages, and they're gonna tear you up and everything.
他们会从笼子里跳出来，他们会把你撕成碎片。
They said, we thought different.
他们说，我们想法不同。
We thought that the American forces captured you in a battle or something.
我们以为美军在一场战斗或其他什么事情中俘获了你。
So some of the people, they are forced to treat us bad.
所以有些人，他们被迫对我们不好。
But you can see, you can tell from their eyes.
但你可以看到，你可以从他们的眼睛里看出。
And some, they feel like, this is not the right thing to do.
有些人觉得这不是正确的做法。
They feel this is wrong.
他们觉得这是错误的。
They told me themselves.
他们自己告诉我的。
Some of them told me, like, if I don't follow orders, I'm going to be in your place.
他们中的一些人告诉我，如果我不遵守命令，我就会取代你的位置。
I really miss them now.
我现在真的很想念他们。
To pass the time, the prisoners would sing together, or try out new poems they'd written.
为了打发时间，囚犯们会一起唱歌，或者尝试他们写的新诗。
They developed a secret postal system for passing notes and photos, and figured out how to talk to each other through the air conditioning vents.
他们开发了一种秘密邮政系统来传递纸条和照片，并想出了如何通过空调通风口相互交谈。
Sometimes, the guards and prisoners would hold little competitions, like the Styrofoam cup challenge.
有时，看守和囚犯会举办一些小比赛，比如泡沫塑料杯挑战赛。
The object was to turn the cup inside out, without cracking it.
目的是将杯子翻过来，而不使其破裂。
The guards went first.
侍卫先走了。
They spent hours and hours and hours, and they came back with, uh, they couldn't do it.
他们花了几个小时、几个小时、几个小时，但他们回来时却发现，呃，他们做不到。
They said, OK, let's try to flip the cup underwater.
他们说，好吧，让我们尝试在水下翻转杯子。
They tried and it didn't work.
他们尝试过，但没有成功。
Then the detainees said, OK, we're going to do it for you.
然后被拘留者说，好吧，我们会为你做的。
The detainees did it.
被拘留者做到了。
They flipped the cup inside out.
他们把杯子翻过来。
Like, totally inside out.
就像，完全由内而外。
You could read the brand of the cup inside the cup instead of outside.
您可以在杯子内部而不是外部看到杯子的品牌。
What was the brand?
品牌是什么？
Abdullah Al Noaimi It was Dart.
阿卜杜拉·阿尔·诺艾米 这是 Dart。
Dart?
镖？
Abdullah Al Noaimi Yeah, one was Dart, and the other was Oklahoma.
阿卜杜拉·诺艾米（Abdullah Al Noaimi）是的，一个是达特，另一个是俄克拉荷马州。
Yeah, the community of Oklahoma for blinds.
是的，俄克拉荷马州的盲人社区。
Since pen and paper were forbidden, Badr's brother wrote his poetry by scratching the words into Styrofoam cups with his fingernails.
由于禁止使用笔和纸，巴德尔的兄弟就用指甲将诗句刻在聚苯乙烯泡沫塑料杯上来写诗。
After a year, they were allowed to use pens and to read books.
一年后，他们被允许使用笔和读书。
Abdullah read David Copperfield.
阿卜杜拉读过《大卫·科波菲尔》。
Badr and his brother composed some 25,000 lines of verse.
巴德尔和他的兄弟创作了大约 25,000 行诗句。
The other inmates memorized the best of them.
其他囚犯都记住了其中最好的。
The most popular couplet went like this.
最流行的对联是这样的。
It says, [PASHTO VERSE] These are the Pashto lines.
它说，[普什图语诗句]这些是普什图语诗句。
It means "They bring good and bad people to the same jail, and there is no oil or salt in the rice."
意思是“把好人和坏人关在同一个监狱里，米里没有油和盐”。
Get that?
明白了吗？
There's no oil or salt in the rice.
米饭里没有油或盐。
It's really funny in Pashto.
普什图语真的很有趣。
If you just say this to any Pashto speaker in your country, he would really like that.
如果你对你所在国家任何说普什图语的人说这句话，他会非常喜欢的。
[REPEATS PASHTO VERSE]
[重复普什图语诗句]
Finally, one day, four years after he left Pakistan, Abdullah was pulled aside by a military officer who had news.
最后，阿卜杜拉离开巴基斯坦四年后的一天，被一位有消息的军官拉到一边。
Abdullah was going home.
阿卜杜拉要回家了。
Abdullah says he was asked by a government lawyer, a major, to sign a contract promising not to join a terrorist group and giving the US permission to rearrest him at any time.
阿卜杜拉说，一名少校政府律师要求他签署一份合同，承诺不加入恐怖组织，并允许美国随时重新逮捕他。
He refused to sign.
他拒绝签字。
Other detainees say they were shown similar letters and also refused to sign, believing this was just another trick.
其他被拘留者表示，他们看到了类似的信件，但也拒绝签名，认为这只是另一个骗局。
Did they ever explain why they were letting you go?
他们有没有解释过为什么让你走？
No. Jack Hitt So, but they told you they had made a mistake in the end.
不，杰克·希特，所以，但他们告诉你他们最终犯了一个错误。
The government lawyer, he didn't say a mistake by the vocabulary of "mistake." He didn't say, "mistake." But he said, "we picked you up as an enemy combatant, but it turned out that you were not one.
政府律师，他没有用“错误”这个词说错误。他没有说“错误”。但他说：“我们把你当作敌方战斗人员，但事实证明你不是敌方战斗人员。
We don't say that you are an enemy combatant." He gave me an example of a mistake, but he didn't say, "we made a mistake."
我们并没有说你是敌方战斗人员。”他给了我一个错误的例子，但他没有说：“我们犯了一个错误。”
And just as suddenly, Abdullah was on an airplane and back in Bahrain.
同样突然，阿卜杜拉乘飞机回到巴林。
He was quickly ushered past the news media and into a room where he saw his family.
他很快就被带过新闻媒体，进入一个房间，在那里他见到了家人。
They greeted me, they welcomed me, they hugged me and everything.
他们向我打招呼，欢迎我，拥抱我等等。
Then they took me home.
然后他们就带我回家了。
I didn't tell them anything.
我什么也没告诉他们。
Everybody's crying.
每个人都在哭。
I left my sister, she was very, very young, about five, six years.
我离开了我妹妹，她非常非常年轻，大约五、六岁。
I didn't know her when I saw her.
当我看到她时我并不认识她。
She was like a lady.
她就像一位女士。
When you saw your brothers and your father, what was that like?
当你看到你的兄弟和你的父亲时，感觉如何？
Have you ever heard the expression "home sweet home"?
你听过“甜蜜的家”这句话吗？
Yeah, of course.
是的，当然。
That's exactly.
正是如此。
That's the best time to say "home sweet home."
这是说“甜蜜的家”的最佳时机。
Americans are going to think that, because you were at Guantanamo Bay, that you were a terrorist, and that everybody there was.
美国人会认为，因为你在关塔那摩湾，你就是恐怖分子，而且那里的每个人都是恐怖分子。
What would you say to them?
你会对他们说什么？
I would say, even if I were an angel, I would still be a terrorist to them, because that is the thing that they want.
我想说，即使我是天使，对他们来说我仍然是恐怖分子，因为那是他们想要的东西。
People don't want to take the responsibilities of their mistakes.
人们不想为自己的错误承担责任。
And they want to put it on others.
他们想把它放在别人身上。
It's like slaughtering a sheep, for example.
例如，这就像宰杀一只羊。
And when the sheep keeps shaking, and the blood's spilling all over the place, they would scream at it, at the sheep, and say, you are a bad sheep, bad sheep, because your blood came on my clothes or my dress.
当羊不停地颤抖，血洒得到处都是时，他们就会对着羊尖叫，对着羊尖叫，说，你是一只坏羊，坏羊，因为你的血沾到了我的衣服或裙子上。
You know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
They would take you, maybe torture you, or maybe kill you, or put you under so much stress and circumstances.
他们会带走你，也许折磨你，或者杀死你，或者让你承受如此大的压力和环境。
And then they would say, you are a bad person because you've been through those things.
然后他们会说，你是一个坏人，因为你经历过那些事情。
Why did you put me through those things in the first place?
你为什么首先让我经历这些事情？
In the years Abdullah was gone, his parents moved to a new house, a big house with lots of rooms.
阿卜杜拉去世后，他的父母搬进了新房子，一栋有很多房间的大房子。
But there was no bedroom for him.
但没有他的卧室。
His old clothes were gone.
他的旧衣服不见了。
They thought he would never come home.
他们以为他永远不会回家了。
He says, it's like he's come back from the dead.
他说，他就像死而复生一样。
Jack Hitt, in New Haven.
杰克·希特，在纽黑文。
Credits Ira Glass Our program was produced today by Sarah Koenig and myself, with Alex Blumberg, Diane Cook, Jane Feltes, Amy O'Leary and Lisa Pollak.
图片来源 Ira Glass 我们今天的节目由 Sarah Koenig 和我本人以及 Alex Blumberg、Diane Cook、Jane Feltes、Amy O'Leary 和 Lisa Pollak 制作。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Elizabeth Meister runs our web site.
伊丽莎白·梅斯特 (Elizabeth Meister) 负责运营我们的网站。
Production help from Sam Hallgren and Thea Chaloner.
萨姆·霍尔格伦 (Sam Hallgren) 和西娅·查洛纳 (Thea Chaloner) 为制作提供帮助。
And our music help from Jessica Hopper.
杰西卡·霍珀 (Jessica Hopper) 为我们提供了音乐帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our web site www.thisamericanlife.org.
[致谢] 我们的网站 www.thisamericanlife.org。
And you can download today's program in our archives at audible.com/thisamericanlife.
您可以在我们的档案库中下载今天的节目：audible.com/thisamericanlife。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
WBEZ management oversight for our program by Mr. Torey Malatia.
Torey Malatia 先生对 WBEZ 项目进行管理监督。
You know what he always says about us.
你知道他总是怎么说我们。
If anybody actually met these guys, actually looked at them, you know, had them on TV shows, they'd be shocked.
如果有人真的见过这些人，真正看过他们，你知道，让他们出现在电视节目中，他们会感到震惊。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories this of this American life.
下周我们将带来更多有关美国生活的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。