304: Heretics - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #304 | March 8, 2024 304: Heretics Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 304 集 | 2024 年 3 月 8 日 304：异端注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
序言 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥的 Ira Glass，这就是美国生活。
Yes, I can.
是的，我可以。
Larry King What were your in-laws doing in the building?
拉里·金：你的姻亲在大楼里做什么？
This is The Larry King Show the day after the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995.
这是 1995 年俄克拉荷马城爆炸事件发生后第二天的拉里·金秀。
His guests are a young couple, the Treanors, who lost their relatives in the bombing, and a young charismatic preacher.
他的客人是一对年轻的特雷纳夫妇，他们在爆炸中失去了亲人，还有一位年轻的魅力传教士。
Joining us from Tulsa is Reverend Carlton Pearson, who spoke at yesterday's very moving prayer service.
卡尔顿·皮尔森牧师从塔尔萨加入我们，他在昨天非常感人的祈祷仪式上发表了讲话。
What do you say to people like the Treanors?
您对像 Treanors 这样的人有什么想说的？
Well, Brad already mentioned his faith in God.
嗯，布拉德已经提到了他对上帝的信仰。
And I said yesterday that experience is not only what happens to you, but what you do with what happens to you.
我昨天说过，体验不仅是发生在你身上的事情，而且是你对发生在你身上的事情所做的事情。
Carlton Pearson, at the time that he talked to Larry King, was a rising evangelical megastar, a Republican activist who prayed in the Bush Senior White House, a guest on The 700 Club.
卡尔顿·皮尔森（Carlton Pearson）在与拉里·金（Larry King）交谈时，是一位冉冉升起的福音派巨星，一位在布什高级白宫祈祷的共和党活动家，也是“700俱乐部”的嘉宾。
Host of a national TV show, he traveled all over the world in chartered jets, lecturing to fundamentalist gatherings.
作为全国电视节目的主持人，他乘坐包机环游世界，在原教旨主义集会上发表演讲。
But at the height of his popularity, he became involved in a scandal, though not in the kind of scandal that you usually think of when you hear the word scandal.
但在他人气最高的时候，他却卷入了一场丑闻，尽管不是你听到“丑闻”这个词时通常想到的那种丑闻。
He didn't have an affair, didn't embezzle money.
他没有外遇，也没有贪污钱财。
He didn't admit an addiction to prescription painkillers.
他不承认对处方止痛药上瘾。
No, no, none of that.
不，不，都没有。
He stopped believing in hell.
他不再相信有地狱。
And what happened to him next was the kind of thing that happens from time to time here in America, even now.
接下来发生在他身上的事情在美国时常发生，即使是现在也是如此。
He became a heretic, a very prominent heretic in the middle of a religious community, in the middle of our country.
他成为了一个异端分子，一个在我们国家中部的宗教团体中非常突出的异端分子。
Every century in our nation, there have been heresy trials and people who've been cast out of their own communities.
在我们国家，每个世纪都会有异端审判，人们会被赶出自己的社区。
It didn't end with the Salem witch trials.
塞勒姆女巫审判并没有结束。
And things happened to Carlton Pearson.
卡尔顿·皮尔森身上也发生了一些事情。
He had an experience that most Americans do not imagine still happens today in modern America.
他的经历是大多数美国人想象不到的，如今在现代美国仍然会发生。
We're devoting our entire show today to his story.
我们今天的整个节目都在讲述他的故事。
We first broadcast today's show back in 2005.
我们第一次播出今天的节目是在 2005 年。
And we're rerunning it this week because we just made a new movie about Carlton Pearson's life.
我们本周将重播它，因为我们刚刚制作了一部关于卡尔顿·皮尔逊生活的新电影。
We're excited about that.
我们对此感到兴奋。
It's on Netflix, called Come Sunday.
它在 Netflix 上播出，名叫《Come Sunday》。
Our reporter for the radio story is Russell Cobb, who's from Tulsa where most of the story takes place.
我们的广播故事记者是拉塞尔·科布（Russell Cobb），他来自故事的大部分发生地塔尔萨。
And when you look at the rise and fall of Carlton Pearson, his rise is almost as remarkable as his fall.
当你观察卡尔顿·皮尔逊的兴衰时，你会发现他的崛起几乎和他的衰落一样引人注目。
And that's where Russell Cobb starts his story.
拉塞尔·科布的故事就是从这里开始的。
Carlton Pearson says there are two kinds of people in his family, preachers and convicts.
卡尔顿·皮尔森说，他家里有两种人：传教士和罪犯。
He grew up in an all-black ghetto in San Diego in a strict Pentecostal denomination-- no smoking, drinking, cursing, or dancing.
他在圣地亚哥的一个全黑人贫民窟长大，信奉严格的五旬节教派——禁止吸烟、饮酒、咒骂或跳舞。
But there was lots of churchgoing.
但有很多人去教堂。
And church is where the really wild stuff happened.
教堂是真正疯狂的事情发生的地方。
People spoke in tongues, got slain by the Holy Spirit.
人们说方言，被圣灵杀死。
And they definitely believed in hell, to the point where even the faithful could get possessed by demons.
他们坚信地狱存在，甚至信徒也可能被恶魔附身。
Carlton's father and grandfather were ministers.
卡尔顿的父亲和祖父都是部长。
And at an early age, he was following in their footsteps.
在很小的时候，他就追随了他们的脚步。
Well, the first time I ever cast the devil out of somebody, I was like, 17 years old.
嗯，我第一次把魔鬼从某人身上赶出去，那是在我 17 岁的时候。
16, maybe.
16，也许吧。
And the girl was my girlfriend.
那女孩是我的女朋友。
This was a tiny storefront where the church was having a youth revival.
这是一个很小的店面，教堂正在那里进行青年复兴。
She just let out this scream.
她刚刚发出了这一声尖叫。
And it startled me and everybody else.
这让我和其他人都震惊了。
She fell to the ground.
她摔倒在地。
I looked at the pastor, and he just stood there.
我看着牧师，他只是站在那里。
And nobody else moved.
其他人也没有动。
So I started rebuking the devil, and binding the devil in the name of Jesus, and commanding him to come out, and pleading what we call plead the blood.
所以我开始斥责魔鬼，奉耶稣的名捆绑魔鬼，命令他出来，并恳求我们所谓的“求血”。
The blood, the blood, the blood, the blood, come out.
血，血，血，血，流出来了。
You lying wonder, in the name of Jesus I command you to cease and desist.
你这说谎的奇迹，奉耶稣的名，我命令你停止并停止。
Loose her.
松开她。
Come out in Jesus-- Come out.
在耶稣里出来——出来。
Come out now.
现在就出来吧。
The things we'd been taught to say.
我们被教导要说的话。
My grandfather used to do that.
我祖父曾经这样做过。
She kind of thrashed a little bit.
她有点挣扎。
And she's, I'm not going out, you know, talking back to me like this.
她，我不会出去，你知道，这样跟我顶嘴。
So I was freaking out.
所以我吓坏了。
But I was the leader of the meeting.
但我是会议的领导者。
It was my revival.
这是我的复兴。
So I couldn't-- I had seen people cast devils out before.
所以我不能——我以前见过有人赶鬼。
I never expected that, certainly not from a girl I was dating.
我从没想过会这样，尤其是我约会的女孩。
It took me probably an hour, maybe an hour and a half, before she got through thrashing and talking back to me and screaming.
我大概花了一个小时，也许一个半小时，她才从对我的殴打、顶嘴和尖叫中恢复过来。
And then it went out of her into another person, supposedly.
据说，然后它就从她身上转移到了另一个人身上。
And they-- the whole pew hit the floor.
他们——整个长凳都倒在了地板上。
And there were all these crazy things happening in that little storefront church.
那个小店面教堂里发生了所有这些疯狂的事情。
It was very frightening, very serious.
这是非常可怕、非常严重的。
And that kind of thing happened every night for three nights in a row.
而且这样的事情连续三个晚上每天晚上都会发生。
And I became a hero after that because Carlton Pearson cast the devil out of people three nights in a row.
在那之后我成为了英雄，因为卡尔顿·皮尔森连续三个晚上将魔鬼从人们身上驱散了。
Looking back at this episode right now, I mean as you're telling it, how do you think about it right now?
现在回顾这一集，我的意思是，正如你所说，你现在怎么看待它？
Well, I expected devils.
好吧，我期待着魔鬼。
I expected demons.
我期待着恶魔。
I saw them everywhere.
我到处都看到他们。
So that was a part of my life.
所以那是我生活的一部分。
The devil was as present and as large as God.
魔鬼与上帝一样存在、一样伟大。
He had most of the people.
他拥有大部分人。
He was ultimately going to get most of the people.
他最终会得到大多数人的支持。
Demons were all over-- in the church, in the schools, in the neighborhoods.
恶魔无处不在——在教堂、在学校、在社区。
Everything was a devil.
一切都是魔鬼。
So if you believe it, you experience it.
所以，如果你相信它，你就会经历它。
Carlton was still curious about what went on beyond the world of devils and demons.
卡尔顿仍然对恶魔世界之外发生的事情感到好奇。
But intellectual curiosity wasn't really encouraged where he grew up.
但他成长的地方并没有真正鼓励求知欲。
This wasn't a place where church leaders had PhDs in divinity.
这里不是教会领袖拥有神学博士学位的地方。
All my pastors but one were janitors.
我所有的牧师，除了一位以外都是看门人。
They cleaned banks and restaurants.
他们打扫银行和餐馆。
And I'd sometimes go with them.
有时我也会和他们一起去。
A lot of them couldn't read.
他们中的很多人都无法阅读。
They had no formal education, certainly not seminary.
他们没有受过正规教育，当然也没有上过神学院。
And so we were trying to fit into a big, broad world that we didn't understand, that we felt was basically hellbound, and we were to reach them, but we couldn't relate to them.
因此，我们试图融入一个我们不理解的广阔世界，我们觉得这个世界基本上是地狱般的，我们要接触他们，但我们无法与他们建立联系。
They couldn't relate to us.
他们无法与我们建立联系。
So my world was getting smaller.
所以我的世界变得越来越小。
And the world was getting larger.
世界变得越来越大。
And I was smothering.
我感到窒息。
But I had to find a way to get out of that world and still go to heaven.
但我必须找到一种方法，既可以离开那个世界，又可以去天堂。
And ORU offered that to me in a sanctified way.
ORU 以一种神圣的方式向我提供了这一点。
ORU was Oral Roberts University.
ORU 是奥罗罗伯茨大学。
Roberts was one of the few outside influences that made it into the Pearson home.
罗伯茨是少数进入皮尔逊家的外部影响力之一。
He had a TV show, and Carlton's mother loved it.
他有一个电视节目，卡尔顿的母亲很喜欢。
And I'd like to take a moment here and talk a little bit about Oral Roberts and the school he founded because it forms a backdrop for much of what happens later.
我想在这里花点时间谈谈奥罗·罗伯茨和他创办的学校，因为它为后来发生的大部分事情奠定了背景。
Oral Roberts was a half-Cherokee charismatic preacher who claimed to heal disease with the touch of a hand, sometimes even through the TV screen.
奥拉·罗伯茨是一位有一半切罗基血统、魅力非凡的传教士，他声称用手触摸就能治愈疾病，有时甚至是通过电视屏幕。
He was one of the first preachers to take TV seriously, the first televangelist the way we think of them now.
他是最早认真对待电视的传教士之一，也是我们现在所认为的第一个电视布道者。
And his weekly show, The Hour Of Healing, reached tens of millions of viewers.
他的每周节目《治愈时刻》吸引了数千万观众。
And he tried to change the image of Pentecostals from dusty tent revival Holy Rollers into something respectable and higher class.
他试图将五旬节派的形象从尘土飞扬的帐篷复兴圣滚轮转变为令人尊敬和更高层次的东西。
I grew up in the Christian faith and was taught to give, but was told not to expect anything back.
我在基督教信仰中长大，并被教导要给予，但被告知不要期望任何回报。
And we listened.
我们听了。
And we gave, and received nothing back.
我们付出了，却没有得到任何回报。
We had old rattletrap cars, many times no place to live.
我们有旧的响尾蛇汽车，很多时候没有地方住。
Our clothes were not fit to wear, and mete out trying to tell people the good news.
我们的衣服不合身，只好出去试图告诉人们这个好消息。
And people out there saying, yeah, to be like you?
那里的人说，是的，要像你一样吗？
No.
不。
He also tweaked the Pentecostal message, making it more optimistic.
他还调整了五旬节的信息，使其更加乐观。
His catchphrases-- expect a miracle, God ain't poor no more, plant a seed and it will grow-- were all about the idea that faith would lead to wealth and happiness on this earth.
他的口号——期待奇迹，上帝不再贫穷，种下一颗种子，它就会成长——都是关于信仰将为这个地球带来财富和幸福的想法。
He called donations to his church investments.
他呼吁人们为他的教堂投资捐款。
And he guaranteed a high rate of return.
而且他保证了高回报率。
God said return unto me, and I'll return unto you.
神说回到我身边，我就会回到你身边。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Amen.
阿门。
Oral Roberts When you give to God, you're putting money into your account.
奥罗·罗伯茨 当你奉献给上帝时，你就是把钱存入你的账户。
You won't believe it's true, how the bank of life pays interest.
你不会相信这是真的，生命银行是如何支付利息的。
Amazing what a little love can do.
一点点的爱就能发挥如此惊人的作用。
You're listening to another front in the Oral Roberts campaign for mainstream acceptance, the World Action Singers.
您正在聆听奥罗·罗伯茨争取主流接受运动的另一个阵线：世界行动歌手。
They were sort of musical emissaries, a group of about 20 Oral Roberts University students who traveled around the world performing Christian-themed variety shows to religious audiences.
他们是一群大约 20 名奥罗罗伯茨大学 (Oral Roberts University) 学生的音乐使者，他们走遍世界各地，为宗教观众表演基督教主题的综艺节目。
Carlton joined the group when he first arrived on campus at ORU in 1971.
1971 年，卡尔顿第一次来到奥鲁大学校园时就加入了这个团体。
By this time the singers had already started to cross over to a more secular audience.
此时歌手们已经开始接触更世俗的听众。
Carlton's freshman year, he went with the group to the headquarters of NBC in California to appear on a prime time Oral Roberts special.
卡尔顿大学一年级时，他随乐队前往加州全国广播公司 (NBC) 总部，参加黄金时段奥罗·罗伯茨 (Oral Roberts) 的特别节目。
37 million people watched it.
3700 万人观看了它。
For a kid who wanted a sanctified way to see the rest of the world, it couldn't have been better.
对于一个想要以神圣的方式看待世界其他地方的孩子来说，这再好不过了。
I remember going to NBC, and Johnny Carson had a star, Redd Foxx had a star.
我记得去 NBC 时，约翰尼·卡森 (Johnny Carson) 有明星，雷德·福克斯 (Redd Foxx) 有明星。
They all had-- and Oral Roberts was a star on the-- and he would come in a Rolls Royce.
他们都拥有——奥罗·罗伯茨是其中的明星——他会开着劳斯莱斯来。
And here we are, the Pentecostal kids, singing on nationwide television, sometimes with Johnny Cash, or Pearl Bailey, or Robert Goulet, and movie stars.
我们这些五旬节派的孩子们，在全国电视上唱歌，有时与约翰尼·卡什、珀尔·贝利、罗伯特·古莱特以及电影明星一起唱歌。
And we saw Dale Evans and all that kind of thing.
我们看到了戴尔·埃文斯和诸如此类的事情。
So it changed my worldview pronounced.
所以它明显改变了我的世界观。
He brought an elegance to the Pentecostal expression, a dignity to it, that we had not known in California.
他给五旬节派的表达带来了优雅和尊严，这是我们在加利福尼亚所不知道的。
I was elated.
我很高兴。
Through all this, Carlton was getting closer to Oral Roberts.
通过这一切，卡尔顿与奥罗·罗伯茨的关系越来越近。
He'd go to dinner with Oral and his wife, Evelyn.
他会和奥拉尔以及他的妻子伊芙琳一起去吃晚饭。
Oral and he would talk for hours.
口头上他会讲几个小时。
But it wasn't until a problem arose with Oral Roberts' son, Richard, that Carlton realized how close they'd become.
但直到奥罗·罗伯茨的儿子理查德出现问题，卡尔顿才意识到他们的关系有多亲密。
Richard Roberts ran the World Action Singers when Carlton sang for the group.
当卡尔顿为该团体演唱时，理查德·罗伯茨负责管理世界行动歌手。
They butted heads on a few occasions.
他们有几次发生了冲突。
And Carlton decided he'd had enough.
卡尔顿认为他已经受够了。
At the time, coincidentally, Kathie Lee Gifford was also a World Action Singer.
巧合的是，当时凯西·李·吉福德也是一名世界动作歌手。
And she and Carlton decided to quit together.
她和卡尔顿决定一起退出。
Word of all this made it to Oral, and Carlton got called into his office.
这一切的消息传到了奥罗尔，卡尔顿被叫到了他的办公室。
To my surprise, when I went in the office, Richard was sitting in there.
令我惊讶的是，当我走进办公室时，理查德正坐在那儿。
And he had explained to his dad that Kathie and I were getting out.
他向他父亲解释说我和凯西要出去。
And he was sitting there in front of his father and me.
他坐在他父亲和我面前。
And it was like whatever the son had done to make us not want to be in there was not good.
就好像儿子所做的一切让我们不想在那里一样都是不好的。
Because Oral didn't want particularly his two favorites, one of his two favorite singers, me and Kathie, to leave.
因为奥拉尔特别不想让他最喜欢的两个人，他最喜欢的两个歌手之一，我和凯西离开。
That's the impression I got.
这就是我的印象。
I could be wrong, but I think that's what was going on.
我可能是错的，但我认为这就是正在发生的事情。
And so Richard was the heir apparent, the likely successor.
因此理查德是法定继承人，可能的继任者。
It never crossed my mind that it would be any different than that.
我从来没想过事情会有所不同。
I just was close to his father.
我只是和他父亲很亲近。
His father was intrigued with the fact that I was from the ghettos of San Diego.
他父亲对我来自圣地亚哥贫民窟这一事实很感兴趣。
Oral was always for the underdog.
口头总是属于失败者。
He saw me as pulling myself up by my own bootstraps.
他认为我是靠自己的力量振作起来的。
And so he said, "We like you around here.
所以他说：“我们喜欢你在这里。
25% of my support is consistently African-American." He would've said black in those days.
我的 25% 的支持者始终是非裔美国人。”那时候他会说黑色。
And he said, "I need a black son.
他说：“我需要一个黑人儿子。
Richard is my biological son.
理查德是我的亲生儿子。
He has the indispensable name of Roberts." I remember him using the term indispensable because I didn't know what that meant, indispensable name of Roberts.
他有一个不可或缺的名字：罗伯茨。”我记得他用了“不可或缺”这个词，因为我不知道罗伯茨这个不可或缺的名字是什么意思。
"But you are my black son, and I need you by my side."
“但你是我的黑人儿子，我需要你在我身边。”
Carlton still decided to leave the group, but he stayed Oral's black son.
卡尔顿仍然决定离开乐队，但他留下了奥拉尔的黑人儿子。
And let's put this in context.
让我们把这个放在上下文中。
Civil rights came late to Tulsa.
塔尔萨的民权运动起步较晚。
Schools weren't desegregated until the 1970s.
直到 20 世纪 70 年代，学校才取消种族隔离。
South Tulsa is still almost all white, North Tulsa almost all black.
南塔尔萨仍然几乎全白，北塔尔萨几乎全黑。
But Oral Roberts had always been sympathetic to the plight of black people.
但奥罗·罗伯茨一直同情黑人的困境。
As early as the '50s, he integrated his tent revivals.
早在 50 年代，他就将帐篷复兴融入其中。
And he was sincere about his feelings toward Carlton.
他对卡尔顿的感情也很真诚。
The two were very similar.
两人非常相似。
Because of their sheer charisma, they could walk in seemingly contradictory worlds-- black and white, religious and secular-- which explains what happens next.
由于他们纯粹的魅力，他们可以行走在看似矛盾的世界中——黑白、宗教和世俗——这解释了接下来会发生什么。
Carlton, with his best friend and roommate from ORU, a white man named Garry McIntosh, started a church.
卡尔顿和他来自奥鲁大学最好的朋友兼室友加里·麦金托什 (Garry McIntosh) 白人一起创办了一座教堂。
They called it Higher Dimensions.
他们称之为更高维度。
And it was different from all the other churches in Tulsa.
它与塔尔萨的所有其他教堂不同。
Here are some early members.
以下是一些早期成员。
First, Jeff Voth.
首先是杰夫·沃斯。
The church can be really, really a cloistered place.
教堂确实是一个与世隔绝的地方。
You know, white folks kind of worship the way they do.
你知道，白人以他们的方式进行崇拜。
And people of color worship the way they do.
有色人种也以他们的方式崇拜。
And never the twain shall meet.
两人永远不会见面。
And Higher Dimensions, it really blew that stereotype away.
而《更高的维度》，它确实打破了这种刻板印象。
And here's Martin Brown, who joined Higher Dimensions right after it started in 1981.
马丁·布朗 (Martin Brown) 是在 Higher Dimensions 于 1981 年成立后立即加入的。
It was very integrated.
它非常完整。
And that was one of the things that I really respected him for, and I was really proud of him as an African-American man to have accomplished in South Tulsa.
这是我真正尊重他的事情之一，我为他作为一名非裔美国人在南塔尔萨取得的成就感到自豪。
And I had never seen it before.
我以前从未见过它。
I had never seen it in a black church or a white church.
我从未在黑人教堂或白人教堂见过它。
One of the things that made the integration possible at all is a characteristic everyone points out about Carlton Pearson.
使整合成为可能的原因之一是每个人都指出 Carlton Pearson 的一个特点。
He's a very funny man.
他是一个非常有趣的人。
Here's a sermon from 1998 where he starts off talking about the need for strong discipline with children.
这是 1998 年的一次布道，他首先谈到对孩子进行严格管教的必要性。
Sometimes she was a sweetheart.
有时她是个甜心。
No, darling.
不，亲爱的。
That don't work.
那是行不通的。
Not with coloreds, it don't work.
没有颜色，它不起作用。
It may work with some of you Anglos.
它可能对你们中的一些盎格鲁人有用。
No, I'm kidding.
不，我在开玩笑。
The coloreds are becoming more like the Anglos, and the Anglos are now starting to whip their children.
有色人种变得越来越像盎格鲁人，而盎格鲁人现在开始鞭打他们的孩子。
Isn't that a blessing?
这难道不是一种祝福吗？
[LAUGHTER] Carlton Pearson All this soft talking ain't working no more.
[笑声] Carlton Pearson 所有这些温和的谈话都不再起作用了。
So you finally convinced you going to have to beat them like we beat ours.
所以你最终确信你必须像我们击败我们一样击败他们。
Strike that from the record, please.
请从记录中删除该内容。
[LAUGHTER] Russell Cobb This one's from 2001.
[笑声] Russell Cobb 这是 2001 年的作品。
They started saying I was the most available bachelor.
他们开始说我是最有空的单身汉。
Church was full of beautiful, Holy Ghost filled women.
教会里充满了美丽、充满圣灵的妇女。
Everywhere I traveled, the place was packed.
我所到之处，到处都挤满了人。
And I thought it was my anointing and the blessing of the Lord all over me.
我认为这是主对我的恩膏和祝福。
And then I got married.
然后我结婚了。
And the balcony cleared out.
阳台也清空了。
I went and messed up my whole ministry.
我去搞乱了我的整个事工。
[LAUGHTER] Carlton Pearson First time I had an argument with her, I knew she was of the devil.
[笑声] 卡尔顿·皮尔森 我第一次和她争论时，我就知道她是魔鬼。
He done tore up my life and my ministry.
他毁掉了我的生活和我的事工。
Satan, the Lord rebuke you.
撒但，主责备你。
Hail Mary, whatever works.
万岁玛丽，无论什么有效。
One time, we was both trying to cast the devil out of each other.
有一次，我们都试图把魔鬼从对方身上赶出去。
Have I ever told you that story?
我给你讲过这个故事吗？
[LAUGHTER] Carlton Pearson Can you imagine two folks in love?
[笑声] Carlton Pearson 你能想象两个相爱的人吗？
Satan, the Lord rebuke you.
撒但，主责备你。
Satan, the Lord rebuke you.
撒但，主责备你。
I command you to come out of here, you foul, tormenting spirit.
我命令你离开这里，你这个肮脏的、折磨人的灵魂。
I command him to come out of you.
我命令他从你身上出来。
Look at me.
看着我。
I don't care whether you're homosexual, heterosexual, or asexual, or bisexual, or try-- trying to have sex.
我不在乎你是同性恋、异性恋、无性恋、双性恋，还是尝试做爱。
[LAUGHTER] Carlton Pearson Whatever it is, if it's unclean or unholy, you need your mind renewed.
[笑声] Carlton Pearson 不管它是什么，如果它是不洁或不神圣的，你就需要更新你的思想。
The renewing, everybody say the renewing.
更新，大家都说更新。
The renewing.
更新。
Carlton Pearson Anakainos in Greek, and ana meaning back or again, kainos meaning new, not recent but different.
Carlton Pearson Anakainos 在希腊语中的意思是“回来”或“再次”，kainos 的意思是“新的”，不是最近的，而是不同的。
It felt good to go to church and have someone who could give you more than just a cursory explanation of scripture.
去教堂感觉很好，有人可以给你更多的东西，而不仅仅是对经文的粗略解释。
Martin Brown says another thing a lot of people mention, that Carlton's sermons weren't just funny.
马丁·布朗说，很多人提到的另一件事是，卡尔顿的布道不仅仅是有趣。
They were scholarly.
他们很有学问。
I mean he could give you an in-depth analysis of the scripture.
我的意思是他可以给你对经文的深入分析。
He could tell you what the Greek of this word meant and so forth.
他可以告诉你这个词的希腊语意思等等。
And I really appreciated that because it gave me the sense that you cannot take everything at face value.
我真的很感激这一点，因为它给了我一种感觉，你不能只看表面价值。
You have to study it and know it for yourself.
你必须自己研究并了解它。
Say it with me.
和我一起说吧。
Demons, daemon, it is an inferior deity.
恶魔，恶魔，是下位神。
Dae meaning to distribute.
Dae 意思是分配。
It also in Greek means a knowing one.
在希腊语中它也意味着一个有知识的人。
So these are little spirits that supposedly have a certain knowledge, a secret knowledge.
所以这些小精灵据说拥有一定的知识，一种秘密的知识。
Things kept growing.
事情不断增长。
Higher Dimensions built a mega church on the predominantly white south side.
高维度在以白人为主的南侧建造了一座巨型教堂。
They hired more pastors, formed a youth group.
他们聘请了更多的牧师，组建了一个青年团体。
There were plans to build a ranch and a hotel.
计划建造一座牧场和一座酒店。
And Carlton Pearson's profile was rising as well.
卡尔顿·皮尔森的知名度也在不断提高。
He flew around the country, guest preaching with some of the biggest names in the evangelical world, people like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson.
他飞往全国各地，与福音派世界中一些最知名的人一起讲道，比如杰里·福尔韦尔和帕特·罗伯逊。
He was in and out of the White House, under both Bushes and Clinton.
在布什和克林顿的领导下，他曾进出白宫。
And when George W.
而当乔治·W.
Bush started his faith-based initiatives program, Carlton sat on an advisory panel and became a spokesman for the plan.
布什启动了他的基于信仰的倡议计划，卡尔顿担任顾问小组成员并成为该计划的发言人。
He hosted a show on TBN, Trinity Broadcasting Network, a Christian cable channel.
他在基督教有线电视频道 TBN（三一广播网）上主持了一档节目。
He was appointed to the Board of Regents at Oral Roberts University and made bishop in 1995 by the International Communion of Charismatic Churches.
他被任命为奥罗罗伯茨大学董事会成员，并于 1995 年被国际灵恩教会联合会任命为主教。
And he started a revival called Azusa, a modern-day evangelical festival, which was sort of like a South by Southwest for evangelical preachers and singers.
他发起了一场名为 Azusa 的复兴运动，这是一个现代福音派节日，对于福音派传教士和歌手来说，这有点像西南偏南节。
Once again, we are live at Azusa.
我们再次在 Azusa 现场直播。
Come on.
快点。
Let's praise God and put those hands together for our bishop and doctor, Carlton D Pearson.
让我们赞美上帝，并为我们的主教兼医生卡尔顿·D·皮尔逊（Carlton D Pearson）举起双手。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Thank you, Brother Alvin.
谢谢你，阿尔文弟兄。
And hello, Azusa.
你好，阿苏萨。
We have come this far by faith.
我们凭着信心走到了这一步。
Let's sing it.
我们来唱吧。
(SINGING) And we've come this far by faith.
（唱歌）我们凭着信心走到了这一步。
Carlton would pack out the Mabee Center, the convention hall at ORU, for his conference and bus in 30,000 people from all over the country.
卡尔顿将奥鲁大学的梅比中心 (Mabee Center) 会议厅挤得水泄不通，为他的会议和巴士提供了来自全国各地的 30,000 名与会者。
(SINGING) I'm trusting in his holy word.
（唱）我相信他的圣言。
Trusting in his holy word.
相信他的圣言。
He introduced new talent, bringing up other preachers.
他引进了新人才，培养了其他传教士。
One of the most famous is T.D.
其中最著名的一位是 T.D.
Jakes, who Carlton introduced in 1992.
杰克斯 (Jakes)，卡尔顿于 1992 年介绍的。
Jakes went on to found a church in Dallas called The Potter's House, which has over 28,000 members.
杰克斯随后在达拉斯建立了一座名为“波特之家”的教堂，该教堂拥有超过 28,000 名成员。
He also has a TV show and might be the most important black preacher today.
他还有一个电视节目，可能是当今最重要的黑人传教士。
President Bush very publicly sought his support and appeared by his side in the wake of Hurricane Katrina.
布什总统非常公开地寻求他的支持，并在卡特里娜飓风过后出现在他身边。
In 2000, eight years after Carlton introduced Jakes to a national audience, Jakes welcomed Carlton to The Potter's House.
2000 年，即卡尔顿向全国观众介绍杰克斯八年后，杰克斯欢迎卡尔顿来到波特之家。
Let's clap our hands for the visionary Bishop Carlton Pearson and his lovely wife Gina.
让我们为富有远见的卡尔顿·皮尔逊主教和他可爱的妻子吉娜鼓掌。
My, my, my, my, my, my, we salute you.
我的，我的，我的，我的，我的，我的，我们向你致敬。
And we celebrate you.
我们为你庆祝。
We celebrate you for being a trailblazer, for your conviction, for your tenacity, and for your relentless spirit.
我们庆祝您作为开拓者、您的信念、您的坚韧和您不懈的精神。
We celebrate you, you lion.
我们庆祝你，狮子。
And attendance at Carlton's own church continued to grow.
卡尔顿自己教堂的出席人数持续增长。
Higher Dimensions added new seats, a balcony, and bought state of the art audio and video recording equipment.
High Dimensions 增加了新的座位、阳台，并购买了最先进的音频和视频录制设备。
I used to worry that it would ever be filled.
我曾经担心它会被填满。
We could seat about 1,200, and it was full.
我们大约可以容纳 1,200 人，而且已经坐满了。
Then we put the balconies in, another 800 seats.
然后我们把包厢改造成另外800个座位。
We're running about 2,200 per service, 5,000 on a Sunday.
我们每项服务运行大约 2,200 个，周日运行 5,000 个。
And every person in my position wonders each week, will they come back?
每个处于我位置的人每周都会想知道，他们会回来吗？
And after a few years of driving up here, and there's police directing traffic, and parking attendants, and crowds, and security meets my car, and I go in my garage-- and one day, it dawned on me.
在这里开车几年后，有警察指挥交通，有停车服务员，有人群，还有保安迎接我的车，我走进车库——有一天，我突然意识到了这一点。
And I said, I guess this is the way it's going to be.
我说，我想事情就是这样。
We are there.
我们就在那里。
So here he is at the top of his game.
所以他现在正处于比赛的巅峰。
It's the late 1990s.
现在是 20 世纪 90 年代末。
But something didn't feel right.
但感觉有些不对劲。
Carlton had always preached a pretty conventional evangelical theology.
卡尔顿一直宣扬一种相当传统的福音派神学。
Hell was a horrible place-- weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth for eternity.
地狱是一个可怕的地方——永远哭泣、哀号、咬牙切齿。
And the only way to avoid it was to accept Jesus.
避免这种情况的唯一方法就是接受耶稣。
But he was always reading and studying the Bible's origins, boning up on the original Hebrew and Greek.
但他一直在阅读和研究圣经的起源，深入研究希伯来语和希腊语的原文。
And he'd begun to doubt some of the stuff he'd been preaching.
他开始怀疑他一直宣扬的一些东西。
And it all came to a head one evening in front of the television.
有一天晚上，这一切在电视机前达到了顶峰。
When my little girl, who'll be nine next month, was an infant, I was watching the evening news.
当我的小女儿下个月九岁的时候，我正在看晚间新闻。
The Hutus and Tutsis were returning from Rwanda to Uganda.
胡图族和图西族正从卢旺达返回乌干达。
And Peter Jennings was doing a piece on it.
彼得·詹宁斯（Peter Jennings）正在为此做一篇文章。
Now, Majesty was in my lap, my little girl.
现在，陛下就在我的腿上，我的小女儿。
I'm eating the meal, and I'm watching these little kids with swollen bellies.
我一边吃着饭，一边看着这些肚子鼓鼓的小孩子。
And it looks like their skin is stretched across their little skeletal remains.
看起来他们的皮肤被拉伸在他们的小骨骼残骸上。
Their hair is kind of red from malnutrition.
他们的头发因营养不良而呈红色。
The babies, they've got flies in the corners of their eyes and in their mouths.
婴儿们，他们的眼角和嘴里都有苍蝇。
And they reach for their mother's breast.
他们伸手去摸母亲的乳房。
And the mother's breast looks like a little pencil hanging there.
母亲的乳房看起来就像挂在那里的一支小铅笔。
I mean the baby's reaching for the breast.
我的意思是宝宝伸手去够乳房。
There's no milk.
没有牛奶了。
And I, with my little fat-faced baby, and a plate of food, and a big screen television-- and I said, God, I don't know how you could call yourself a loving, sovereign God, and allow these people to suffer this way, and just suck them right into hell, which is what was my assumption.
而我，带着我的小胖脸宝宝，一盘食物，还有一台大屏幕电视——我说，上帝，我不知道你怎么能称自己为慈爱、至高无上的上帝，却允许这些人遭受这样的痛苦，然后把他们直接吸进地狱，这就是我的假设。
And I heard a voice say within me, so that's what you think we're doing?
我听到内心有一个声音说，这就是你认为我们正在做的事情？
And I remember I didn't say yes or no. I said, that's what I've been taught.
我记得我没有说是或不是。我说，这就是我被教导的。
We're sucking them into hell.
我们正在把他们吸进地狱。
I said yes.
我说是的。
And what would change that?
什么会改变这一点？
Well, they need to get saved.
好吧，他们需要得救。
And how would that happen?
那会怎样发生呢？
Well, somebody needs to preach the gospel to them and get them saved.
好吧，需要有人向他们传福音并让他们得救。
So if you think that's the only way they're going to get saved is for somebody to preach the gospel to them and that we're sucking them into hell, why don't you put your little baby down, turn your big screen television off, push your plate away, get on the first thing smoking, and go get them saved?
所以，如果你认为他们得救的唯一方法就是有人向他们传福音，而我们正在把他们吸进地狱，为什么你不放下你的小婴儿，关掉你的大屏幕电视，把你的盘子推开，开始吸烟，然后去拯救他们呢？
And I remember I broke into tears.
我记得我泪流满面。
I was very upset.
我很沮丧。
I remember thinking, God, don't put that guilt on me.
我记得我当时想，上帝啊，不要把这种愧疚加在我身上。
I've given you the best 40 years of my life.
我把一生中最美好的40年都给了你。
Besides, I can't save the whole world.
再说了，我也拯救不了整个世界。
I'm doing the best I can.
我正在尽力而为。
I can't save this whole world.
我无法拯救这整个世界。
And that's where I remember-- and I believe it was God saying, precisely, you can't save this world.
这就是我记得的地方——我相信上帝准确地说，你无法拯救这个世界。
That's what we did.
这就是我们所做的。
You think we're sucking them into hell?
你认为我们正在把他们吸进地狱吗？
Can't you see they're already there?
你没看到他们已经在那里了吗？
That's hell.
那是地狱。
You keep creating and inventing that for yourselves.
你不断地为自己创造和发明它。
I'm taking them into my presence.
我要把他们带到我面前。
And I thought, well, I'll be.
我想，好吧，我会的。
That's weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.
那是哭泣、哀嚎、咬牙切齿。
That's where the pain comes from.
这就是痛苦的来源。
We do that to each other.
我们互相这样做。
And we do it to ourselves.
我们对自己这样做。
Then I saw emergency rooms.
然后我看到了急诊室。
I saw divorce court.
我看过离婚法庭。
I saw jails and prisons.
我看到了监狱和监狱。
I saw how we create hell on this planet for each other.
我看到我们如何在这个星球上为彼此创造地狱。
For the first time in my life, I did not see God as the inventor of hell.
我有生以来第一次不认为上帝是地狱的发明者。
Here's what makes me right.
这就是我的正确之处。
I'm sitting next to a little Tibetan monk.
我坐在一位藏族小和尚旁边。
He's been a Tibetan monk for the fourth generation.
他是西藏第四代僧侣。
Here's a monk that all he does is every morning, he takes the goats.
这是一个和尚，他每天早上所做的就是捕捉山羊。
He milks the goats, takes them to another pasture.
他给山羊挤奶，然后把它们带到另一个牧场。
He works in the garden.
他在花园里工作。
He says some prayers.
他做了一些祈祷。
He burns some incense.
他烧了一些香。
He never married.
他从未结婚。
He doesn't kill, cuss, fight, lie.
他不杀人、咒骂、打架、撒谎。
He never heard the gospel.
他从未听过福音。
Never seen a television or a radio or a tract.
从未见过电视、收音机或小册子。
He lives way up there in the cold.
他住在高处，那里很冷。
He's taking goats to one pasture, slips off a cliff, falls into a valley, and dies.
他带着山羊去牧场，从悬崖上滑落，掉进山谷，死了。
Is there a Jesus anywhere?
哪里有耶稣吗？
To receive that man?
去接待那个男人？
Or is the devil there, sucking 'em all into hell?
还是魔鬼在那里，将他们全部吸进地狱？
And I would say, no, no, no, my God loves you.
我会说，不，不，不，我的上帝爱你。
The way the God of the Bible, particularly the Old Testament, is presented, he's a monster.
圣经，特别是旧约中上帝的描述方式，他是一个怪物。
The God we've been preaching is a monster.
我们一直宣扬的上帝是一个怪物。
He's worse than Saddam.
他比萨达姆还坏。
He's worse than Osama bin Laden.
他比奥萨马·本·拉登还坏。
He's worse than Hitler, the way we've presented him.
按照我们对他的描述，他比希特勒还要糟糕。
Because Hitler just burnt six million Jews, but God's going to burn at least six billion people-- and burn them forever.
因为希特勒刚刚烧死了六百万犹太人，但上帝将烧死至少六十亿人——而且永远烧死他们。
He has this customized torture chamber called hell, where he's going to torment, torture, not for a few minutes, or a few days, or a few hours, or a few weeks-- forever.
他有一个定制的酷刑室，称为地狱，他将在那里折磨、折磨，不是几分钟，不是几天，不是几个小时，也不是几周——永远。
The more Carlton started to think about it, the further away from conventional teaching it led him.
卡尔顿越是开始思考这个问题，他就越远离传统的教学。
If there was no hell, then you didn't need to accept Jesus to avoid hell.
如果没有地狱，那么你就不需要接受耶稣来避免地狱。
And if you didn't need to accept Jesus, it didn't matter if you were a Christian.
如果你不需要接受耶稣，那么你是否是基督徒也没关系。
It didn't even matter if you came to church.
你是否来教堂甚至都没有关系。
Everyone in the world was saved, whether they knew it or not.
世界上的每个人都得救了，无论他们是否知道。
And at first, Carlton didn't understand just how problematic this would be for pretty much everyone in his life.
起初，卡尔顿并不明白这对他生活中的几乎每个人来说都会带来多大的问题。
Remember, he had a 5,000-person congregation and eight pastors on staff, all of whom believed that hell was real.
请记住，他有一个 5,000 人的会众和八名牧师，他们都相信地狱是真实的。
And the only way to avoid it was by being reborn in Christ, as they'd been told all their lives.
避免这种情况的唯一方法就是在基督里重生，正如他们一生都被告知的那样。
So he had a series of meetings with his pastors, saying he wanted to rewrite the theology of the charismatic world.
因此，他与牧师进行了一系列的会议，表示他想重写灵恩世界的神学。
This turned out to be a pretty tough sell.
事实证明，这是一次相当艰难的推销。
They were asking me questions.
他们在问我问题。
And I couldn't answer them to their satisfaction, and neither to mine.
我无法让他们满意地回答他们，也不能让我满意。
I knew it spiritually, but I couldn't answer it theologically.
我在灵性上知道这个问题，但在神学上我无法回答。
Because the Bible clearly-- I can take that Bible and denounce what I'm teaching.
因为圣经清楚地表明——我可以拿起那本圣经并谴责我所教导的内容。
There is plenty of scriptures that say that salvation is limited to only those who confess Christ.
有很多经文说，救恩仅限于那些承认基督的人。
The Bible clearly says that.
圣经清楚地这么说。
Hell's enlarging its borders.
地狱正在扩大它的边界。
And that, depart from me, workers of iniquity.
那些作恶的人，离开我吧。
I never knew you.
我从来不认识你。
Jesus said that.
耶稣这么说。
And he will separate the wheat-- the goat from the sheep.
他将把小麦、山羊和绵羊分开。
And Jesus makes several references to Gehenna, which is translated hell and fire and all that stuff.
耶稣多次提到Gehenna，它被翻译为地狱和火之类的东西。
If you take it literally, Jesus preached hell-- the way King James translated is translated, which is inaccurate.
如果你从字面上理解，耶稣宣扬地狱——詹姆斯国王翻译的方式是翻译的，这是不准确的。
Jeff Voth was an associate pastor at the time.
杰夫·沃斯当时是副牧师。
We would talk about his perception of scripture.
我们会谈论他对圣经的看法。
And he had begun talking about just that scripture had mistakes and errors.
他开始谈论圣经有错误。
And so the demeanor of the conversation would get heated at times.
因此，谈话的气氛有时会变得激烈。
Because it was apparent that we were on two different pages.
因为很明显我们处于两个不同的页面。
Open to Matthew chapter five.
打开马太福音第五章。
The average person, even preacher, that you approach and ask, where did we get the Bible?
当你接近并询问普通人，甚至传教士时，我们从哪里得到圣经？
Most of them can't tell you that.
他们中的大多数人都无法告诉你这一点。
Men sat around tables in rooms for weeks drinking wine, eating and taking breaks, fussing and sometimes cussing, arguing over what would be in the Bible and what would not.
人们连续几个星期围坐在房间里的桌子旁喝酒、吃饭、休息，大惊小怪，有时还咒骂，争论圣经中的内容和不包含的内容。
So I won't get into great detail.
所以我不会详细介绍。
But I'm just saying that which we revere as the most sacred lexicon of truth on the planet is not necessarily-- and any true scholar will tell you-- infallible or inerrant.
但我只是说，我们所尊崇的地球上最神圣的真理词典并不一定——任何真正的学者都会告诉你——绝对无误或无误的。
The logas, the logic of--
Logas，逻辑——
For all the scripture that doesn't support Carlton's ideas, there are passages that do, like first Timothy, chapter four, verse nine, which says that God is the savior of all men, especially those who believe.
尽管所有经文不支持卡尔顿的观点，但也有一些段落支持卡尔顿的观点，比如《提摩太前书》第四章第九节，其中说上帝是所有人的救世主，尤其是那些相信的人。
Or there's this.
或者有这个。
First John, chapter two.
约翰一书，第二章。
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin.
我亲爱的孩子们，我写这封信给你们，是为了让你们不再犯罪。
My dear children-- watch this-- I write this to you that you don't sin.
我亲爱的孩子们——注意这一点——我写这封信给你们，告诉你们不要犯罪。
But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the father in our defense.
但如果有人犯罪，我们会有一个人向天父说话来为我们辩护。
But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the father in our defense.
但如果有人犯罪，我们会有一个人向天父说话来为我们辩护。
His name is Jesus Christ, the righteous one.
他的名字叫耶稣基督，是一位公义者。
Read on.
请继续阅读。
Man He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins.
他是我们罪孽的赎罪祭。
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins.
他是我们罪孽的赎罪祭。
And not only for ours.
不仅仅是我们的。
Carlton Pearson And not only for ours.
卡尔顿·皮尔逊 不仅仅是我们的。
But also for the sins of the whole world.
也是为了全世界的罪过。
But also-- look at me, babies.
但还有——看看我，宝贝们。
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins-- but not only ours, but for the sins of the whole world.
他是我们罪孽的赎罪祭——不仅是我们的罪孽，也是全世界的罪孽。
He started formalizing his thinking into an actual doctrine, what he calls the gospel of inclusion.
他开始将自己的想法正式化为实际的教义，他称之为包容福音。
Everyone's going to heaven.
每个人都会去天堂。
Atheists, Muslims, gays-- Jesus died for them all.
无神论者、穆斯林、同性恋——耶稣为他们所有人而死。
For people like Martin Brown, who'd been at Higher Dimensions since it started in 1981, this was a pretty confusing switch.
对于像 Martin Brown 这样自 1981 年 High Dimensions 成立以来就一直在该公司工作的人来说，这是一个相当令人困惑的转变。
Here was their pastor-- who'd married them, baptized them, counseled them, and advised them for decades-- all of a sudden saying that the premise of their faith was wrong.
他们的牧师——数十年来为他们结婚、为他们施洗、为他们提供咨询、为他们提供建议——突然说他们信仰的前提是错误的。
It got to a point where-- and I remember the day my wife and I decided to leave.
我记得我和妻子决定离开的那一天。
We were sitting in church.
我们坐在教堂里。
And I can't remember the particular scripture.
我也不记得具体的经文了。
But I remember the scripture said faith in Christ.
但我记得经文说要相信基督。
And he looked at the congregation.
他看着会众。
And he said, that does not mean faith in Christ.
他说，这并不意味着相信基督。
It was written in ink in black and white.
它是用黑白墨水写成的。
And he looks us in the eye and says, that's not what it means.
他看着我们的眼睛说，这不是这个意思。
I felt insulted by that.
我对此感到受到侮辱。
And he could tell by the looks on the members' faces that he had stepped into something.
而且从成员们的表情来看，他也知道自己陷入了某种困境。
And so he said, wait a minute.
所以他说，等一下。
Before you react, let me explain.
在你做出反应之前，让我解释一下。
And he gave an explanation for it which I didn't buy.
他对此做出了解释，但我不买账。
And I think that was the time where we decided, OK, well, we need to find another church that's solid in the word because this is not-- we don't believe what he's telling us.
我想那是我们决定的时候，好吧，好吧，我们需要找到另一个在这个词上是可靠的教会，因为这不是——我们不相信他告诉我们的。
Around this time, a lot of people were making this decision.
大约在这个时候，很多人都做出了这个决定。
And the congregation was shrinking.
而且会众正在萎缩。
Word started getting out around town that something funny was going on with Bishop Pearson.
镇上开始传出皮尔逊主教发生了一些有趣的事情的消息。
His own pastors had reached a breaking point.
他自己的牧师们已经到了崩溃的边缘。
Four of my pastors-- all white-- my four pastors left here at once.
我的四位牧师——全是白人——我的四位牧师立刻离开了这里。
And almost all my white members-- at least 85% of the white, non-black members left when they left.
几乎我所有的白人成员——至少 85% 的白人非黑人成员在离开时也离开了。
It was just a mass exodus.
这只是一次大规模的逃亡。
And we were at this table.
我们就在这张桌子旁。
And they came.
他们来了。
I thought they were coming to tell me that they were recommitting themselves to me and to my wife.
我以为他们是来告诉我他们正在重新对我和我的妻子做出承诺。
They had called a meeting, and for me and my wife to come.
他们召集了一次会议，并邀请我和我的妻子参加。
But I thought when they asked us, they were going to reaffirm.
但我想当他们问我们时，他们会重申。
So we're going to pull together and make this thing happen, pastor.
所以我们要齐心协力，让这件事发生，牧师。
We know you're going through a lot of criticism and a lot of judgment.
我们知道您正在经历很多批评和评判。
And we just want you to know we got your back.
我们只是想让你知道我们支持你。
That's what I was expecting.
这正是我所期待的。
But they came totally different.
但他们来的却完全不同。
They said we-- very calm, they just said, we just wanted to tell you that we love you.
他们说我们——非常平静，他们只是说，我们只是想告诉你，我们爱你。
But we've prayed together.
但我们一起祈祷。
And we've talked.
我们已经谈过了。
And we've decided that we are going to resign our positions and start our own church.
我们决定辞去职务并建立我们自己的教会。
And would you be offended if we started one close?
如果我们开始结束你会生气吗？
Because we can't find a building far away.
因为我们找不到远处的建筑物。
We can only find a building down here close.
我们只能在附近找到一栋建筑物。
And of course, me being the Christian pacifist, I said, oh.
当然，我是基督教和平主义者，我说，哦。
I mean I burst into tears.
我的意思是我泪流满面。
My wife did too.
我的妻子也这么做了。
We were just crushed.
我们简直被压垮了。
I was just devastated that these guys were going to do this.
我对这些人要这么做感到非常震惊。
It just totally caught me off guard.
这完全让我措手不及。
Those guys have had nothing to do with me since.
从那以后，那些家伙就和我没有任何关系了。
They didn't ask me to come to any dedication.
他们没有要求我做出任何奉献。
They've never asked me to speak.
他们从来没有要求我发言。
They've never come to anything I've had.
他们从来没有经历过我经历过的事情。
They don't even like for people to know they were here.
他们甚至不喜欢人们知道他们在这里。
They just--
他们只是——
No. Well, if I see them around town or something like that, we hug and shake hands and grin like nothing.
不。好吧，如果我在城里或类似的地方看到他们，我们就会拥抱、握手、微笑。
But there's still a lot of pain there.
但那里仍然有很多痛苦。
Again, here's Jeff Voth.
杰夫·沃斯再次报道。
Jeff Voth There was a lot of crying, and it was difficult.
杰夫·沃斯（Jeff Voth）哭了很多次，这很困难。
I mean we didn't know.
我的意思是我们不知道。
Like I said, it was emotional for us on many fronts.
就像我说的，这对我们来说在很多方面都很激动。
He was a dear, dear friend.
他是一位亲爱的朋友。
And we loved he and his wife and kids and the church.
我们爱他和他的妻子、孩子以及教堂。
And we'd spent a decade there almost and raised our kids there.
我们在那里度过了将近十年，并在那里抚养了我们的孩子。
And to be thinking that we were going to-- what's going to happen now?
并思考我们将要——现在会发生什么？
Coming up, what does happen next and the actual price in dollars and cents of heresy.
接下来，接下来会发生什么，以及异端的实际价格。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
We're devoting our entire program today to the story of Carlton Pearson, who was declared a modern-day heretic.
我们今天的整个节目主要讲述卡尔顿·皮尔逊的故事，他被宣布为现代异端。
These things do still happen in various denominations.
这些事情在不同的教派中仍然发生。
We first ran today's story back in 2005.
我们第一次报道今天的故事是在 2005 年。
And we're rerunning it today because we just released a film based on today's show-- not a documentary.
我们今天重播它是因为我们刚刚发行了一部根据今天的节目改编的电影，而不是纪录片。
We have actors playing everybody in the story.
我们有演员扮演故事中的每个人。
Chiwetel Ejiofor plays Carlton Pearson.
切瓦特·埃加福特饰演卡尔顿·皮尔森。
Martin Sheen does this amazing job playing Oral Roberts.
马丁·辛 (Martin Sheen) 饰演奥罗·罗伯茨 (Oral Roberts) 的表演非常出色。
Jason Segel, Danny Glover, Condola Rashad, and Lakeith Stanfield also star.
杰森·席格尔、丹尼·格洛弗、康多拉·拉沙德和莱凯斯·斯坦菲尔德也出演。
Joshua Marston directs.
约书亚·马斯顿执导。
And one of the things that was exciting about making this into a movie is that Carlton spent hundreds of hours, literally hundreds of hours, talking to the screenwriter, Marcus Hinchey.
将其拍成电影的令人兴奋的事情之一是卡尔顿花了数百个小时，实际上是数百个小时，与编剧马库斯·辛奇交谈。
And so the film covers way more of the story than we get into in the radio show.
因此，这部电影所讲述的故事比我们在广播节目中讲述的要多得多。
And especially fascinating, I think anyway, are the private conversations that Carlton Pearson had with his mentor, with Oral Roberts, about everything he was saying from the pulpit and what he was doing with his life.
无论如何，我认为特别令人着迷的是卡尔顿·皮尔逊与他的导师奥罗·罗伯茨的私人谈话，内容涉及他在讲坛上所说的一切以及他一生所做的事情。
And we put those into the film.
我们把这些融入到电影中。
It's also very dramatic what all this did to Carlton's marriage.
这一切对卡尔顿的婚姻造成的影响也是非常戏剧性的。
We also have the meeting where Carlton appeared before the Pentecostal bishops and made his case.
我们还有一次会议，卡尔顿出现在五旬节主教面前并阐述了他的观点。
And they declared him a heretic.
他们宣布他为异端。
That's in the movie.
那是电影里的。
Anyway, it's emotional and very different from the experience of listening to the radio show.
不管怎样，很感人，和听广播节目的体验很不一样。
Again, the film is called Come Sunday.
同样，这部电影的名字叫“周日到来”。
It's on Netflix.
它在 Netflix 上播出。
OK, back to our story.
好吧，回到我们的故事。
People stopped coming to Carlton's church.
人们不再来卡尔顿的教堂了。
They were upset about his teachings.
他们对他的教导感到不安。
They stopped coming.
他们不再来了。
Word spread about what he was saying.
关于他所说的话的消息传开了。
Russell Cobb takes it from there.
拉塞尔·科布从那里继承了它。
After that, the floodgates opened.
此后，闸门打开。
A series of negative articles came out in Charisma Magazine, an evangelical monthly-- headlines like "When Heresy Goes Unchecked." "In the case of Carlton Pearson's universalist doctrines, we can't soft-pedal.
福音派月刊《魅力杂志》上发表了一系列负面文章，标题为“当异端不受控制时”。 “对于卡尔顿·皮尔逊的普世主义学说，我们不能轻视。
We must confront." Evangelicals from all over the country piled on, denouncing him, saying he was mistaken or even possessed by the devil.
我们必须面对。”全国各地的福音派人士蜂拥而至，谴责他，说他错了，甚至被魔鬼附身。
Even people whose careers he'd launched attacked.
就连那些由他开创事业的人也遭到了攻击。
TD Jakes was quoted as saying, "I believe his theology is wrong, false, misleading, and an incorrect interpretation of the Bible." One especially negative article came out just weeks before Carlton's big conference.
TD·杰克斯被引述说：“我相信他的神学是错误的、错误的、具有误导性的，并且是对圣经的错误解释。”就在卡尔顿大型会议召开前几周，发表了一篇特别负面的文章。
We had like 10,000 rooms booked every year for this conference.
我们每年都会为这次会议预订大约 10,000 个房间。
And 350 busloads I think canceled on us just two weeks before the conference.
我认为就在会议召开前两周，我们取消了 350 趟巴士。
We'd already put the money on the rooms.
我们已经把钱放在房间上了。
And so I was left with that bundle.
所以我就剩下那包东西了。
So things start really getting fast.
所以事情开始变得很快。
And then the Charisma wrote another article, and another one, and another one.
然后魅力人物又写了一篇文章，又一篇，又一篇。
And it didn't stop for about a year, a solid year that Charisma was on us.
它持续了大约一年，这是魅力在我们身上的坚实一年。
And then there were other-- then it became a topic of conversation around the country in that evangelical, charismatic community.
然后还有其他的——然后它成为全国各地那个福音派、魅力超凡的社区的一个话题。
The one person who could've helped him, his white father Oral Roberts, remained silent.
唯一可以帮助他的人，他的白人父亲奥罗·罗伯茨（Oral Roberts）保持沉默。
Privately, Oral told Carlton that he loved him.
私下里，奥拉尔告诉卡尔顿他爱他。
And he still considered him part of his family.
而且他仍然认为他是他家庭的一部分。
But Oral's university forced Carlton to step down from the Board of Regents and banned him from holding his Azusa Conference on campus.
但奥拉尔大学强迫卡尔顿辞去董事会职务，并禁止他在校园内举行阿苏萨会议。
By this time Oral was in his 80s, and had retreated from the spotlight.
此时，奥拉尔已经80多岁了，已经退出了聚光灯。
His son, Richard, was the university's president, and Oral Roberts' ministry's public face.
他的儿子理查德是该大学的校长，也是奥罗·罗伯茨部门的公众形象。
Richard, much like he had done 30 years before in the World Action Singers, became Carlton's nemesis.
理查德，就像30年前他在世界动作歌手中所做的那样，成为了卡尔顿的宿敌。
He denounced Carlton's gospel on TV.
他在电视上谴责卡尔顿的福音书。
Here's that disastrous Azusa Conference in 2002.
这就是 2002 年灾难性的阿苏萨会议。
A strange thing to go from a very popular, sort of loved person that everybody seems to like, and everybody wants you, and then overnight, your name is a scandal.
从一个非常受欢迎、受人爱戴的人身上走出来是一件奇怪的事情，每个人似乎都喜欢你，每个人都想要你，然后一夜之间，你的名字就成了丑闻。
Overnight, you are suddenly a pariah.
一夜之间，你突然变成了贱民。
And you adjust.
然后你调整。
And you wake up one day, and the headlines are different.
有一天你醒来，头条新闻就不同了。
And people don't like Carlton Pearson.
人们不喜欢卡尔顿·皮尔逊。
And they're saying things.
他们正在说一些事情。
And fathers who've been precious to me suddenly are not as close.
那些对我来说很珍贵的父亲突然不再那么亲密了。
And people that I know love me, and I love them, but there's a silence going on.
我认识的人爱我，我也爱他们，但仍然保持沉默。
And I'm not saying something you're not aware of.
我并不是说你不知道的话。
Or someone will tell you what I'm thinking, because you're going to have to go home, and they're going to tell you that you were stupid for coming, and why did you come?
或者有人会告诉你我在想什么，因为你将不得不回家，他们会告诉你你来是愚蠢的，你为什么来？
And just the things I've heard the last few weeks, I'm not concerned about me.
只是过去几周我听到的事情，我并不关心我自己。
But I want you to be all right.
但我希望你一切都好。
I can handle my stuff.
我可以处理我的事情。
OK?
好的？
I know what God spoke to me.
我知道神对我说什么。
So I'm cool.
所以我很酷。
God said, in order to get attention, you might have to create some tension.
上帝说，为了引起注意，你可能必须制造一些紧张气氛。
Because I want you to represent me to the world.
因为我希望你能代表我向世界展示。
He said, y'all have not done it accurately.
他说，你们都没有做得准确。
You've not done me justice.
你没有公平对待我。
People don't like me because of the way you represent me.
人们不喜欢我是因为你代表我的方式。
And he said, you're not preaching me like I am.
他说，你并没有像我一样宣讲我。
And that's why Trade Towers will continue to fall.
这就是贸易塔将继续倒塌的原因。
And religious wars will fight.
宗教战争将会爆发。
Finally, in 2004 in an official ceremony, the Joint College of African-American Pentecostal Bishops formally named him a heretic.
最后，在2004年的一次正式仪式上，非裔美国五旬节主教联合学院正式将他列为异端。
Carlton's congregation, once 5,000 strong, dropped to around 200 people, with some very worldly consequences.
卡尔顿的会众曾经有 5,000 人，现在减少到 200 人左右，造成了一些非常世俗的后果。
I mean I couldn't-- my offerings dropped 30,000, 40,000, 50,000 a week.
我的意思是我不能——我的产品每周减少 30,000、40,000、50,000。
Yeah, my offerings.
是的，我的奉献。
My Sunday morning offerings.
我周日早上的奉献。
I have a million dollars a month almost-- I mean, it's a couple hundred thousand dollars a month.
我每个月几乎有一百万美元——我的意思是，每个月有几十万美元。
How can you operate if I'm paying $100,000 a month in salaries?
如果我每月支付 10 万美元，你们如何运营？
More than anything, it was just painful.
最重要的是，这只是痛苦。
In the middle of the denunciations, with his congregation leaving, Carlton turned 50 years old.
在谴责声中，随着他的会众离开，卡尔顿已经 50 岁了。
And my 50th birthday was the one birthday I was looking forward to.
我的 50 岁生日是我最期待的一个生日。
It was the saddest of my whole life.
这是我一生中最悲伤的时刻。
Everybody was gone.
所有人都走了。
I was in debt.
我负债累累。
They tried to have a birthday celebration for me, but it was just so sad for me.
他们想为我举办一个生日庆祝活动，但这对我来说太悲伤了。
I just didn't enjoy it all.
我只是不喜欢这一切。
I wish they hadn't done anything.
我希望他们什么也没做。
I miss ORU.
我想念奥鲁。
I miss the board.
我想念董事会。
I miss being Bishop Pearson, the celebrated preacher.
我怀念成为著名传教士皮尔逊主教的日子。
I miss my people that packed this place out and came by the thousands.
我想念成千上万的人，他们挤满了这个地方。
And I baptized them, and dedicated their babies, and saw them play together.
我为他们施洗，奉献他们的孩子，并看到他们一起玩耍。
Ran into them at theaters, and saw them in the mall.
在剧院遇到他们，在商场里看到他们。
They'd hug my neck, and the babies would kiss me.
他们会抱住我的脖子，婴儿们会亲吻我。
And I would hold their little babies, and preach to them on Sundays, and pray with them on Saturday nights.
我会抱着他们的小婴儿，周日向他们讲道，周六晚上和他们一起祈祷。
I'd have been studying right now, getting ready for them in the morning.
我现在就一直在学习，为早上的比赛做好准备。
Built this whole place for them, and I miss being able to pick up the phone, and call my friends all over the country, and say, I'm going to be in your city in a couple of weeks.
为他们建造了整个地方，我怀念能够拿起电话，给全国各地的朋友打电话，并说，几周后我将到达你们的城市。
Let's get together.
让我们聚在一起吧。
Oh, would you come and speak for us?
哦，你能过来替我们说话吗？
And that whole world, that's all gone.
整个世界，都消失了。
At least, it appears like it is for me.
至少，看起来对我来说是这样。
I'm not celebrated among those people.
我在那些人中并不受人尊敬。
They don't think about me anymore.
他们不再想我了。
It's like I died, and they mourned my death.
就像我死了一样，他们为我的死而哀悼。
And they're pretty much over it.
他们已经结束了。
I only got a sense for how complete the break was when I tried to get people in Tulsa to talk about Carlton Pearson.
当我试图让塔尔萨的人们谈论卡尔顿·皮尔逊时，我才意识到休息是多么彻底。
Only two people who left the church, Martin Brown and Jeff Voth, were willing to talk about the gospel of inclusion.
只有马丁·布朗和杰夫·沃斯这两个离开教会的人愿意谈论包容的福音。
Nobody else.
没有其他人。
None of the professors at Oral Roberts University, Oral Roberts' own son, or ex-parishioners, would talk on tape.
奥拉·罗伯茨大学的教授、奥拉·罗伯茨的儿子或前教区居民都不会在录音中讲话。
But I asked the people who did talk to us, why is it so important to believe in hell?
但我问那些与我们交谈过的人，为什么相信地狱如此重要？
They said they didn't want to sit around thinking about God condemning people to writhing and gnashing of teeth.
他们说，他们不想坐在那里思考上帝谴责人们扭动和咬牙切齿。
They didn't want to think people like me, people who aren't born again, are bound for eternal damnation.
他们不想认为像我这样没有重生的人注定会受到永恒的诅咒。
But that was just the point.
但这就是重点。
They didn't make the rules.
他们没有制定规则。
God did.
上帝做到了。
And he put them in the Bible.
他把它们写进圣经里。
Belief in hell was just a test of faith.
对地狱的信仰只是对信仰的考验。
Carlton received hundreds of letters from around the country making this point, like this one.
卡尔顿收到了来自全国各地的数百封信，表明了这一点，就像这封信一样。
"Dear Bishop Pearson, You are playing right into the enemy's hands.
“亲爱的皮尔逊主教，你正中敌人的下怀。
With all due respect, you can't rewrite the Bible and put it the way you think things ought to be.
恕我直言，你不能重写圣经并按照你认为的方式来表达它。
Stick to the scriptures because that's the way it is, whether we like it or not."
坚持圣经，因为事情就是这样，无论我们喜欢与否。”
Who do you think you are?
你以为你是谁？
That's what basically they're saying to me.
这基本上就是他们对我说的。
Who the heck do you think you are?
你以为你到底是谁？
I mean Billy Graham, Oral Roberts, the whole charismatic church, the whole Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, TBN-- you've been denounced, dude.
我指的是比利·格雷厄姆、奥罗·罗伯茨、整个灵恩派教会、整个杰里·福尔韦尔、帕特·罗伯逊、TBN——你已经被谴责了，伙计。
Don't you know you're wrong?
你不知道你错了吗？
Or, you're so arrogant to think that you're right, and all these people are wrong.
或者，你太傲慢了，认为你是对的，而所有这些人都是错的。
They're absolutely right.
他们是绝对正确的。
I'm being grandiose, way out of-- I'm saying what we were taught was wrong.
我太浮夸了，我是说我们所学到的东西是错误的。
We've been sold a bill of goods.
我们已经被卖掉了一份货物清单。
I'm assaulting 1,500 years of tradition.
我正在攻击 1500 年的传统。
That tradition is powerful.
这种传统是强大的。
People told me it was hard giving up hell after a lifetime of believing in it.
人们告诉我，在一生相信地狱之后，很难放弃它。
Steve Palmer is still with Higher Dimensions.
史蒂夫·帕尔默仍在高维公司工作。
He's a youth pastor.
他是一位青年牧师。
He says hell is one of the first things he learned about as a young person, growing up in an evangelical church.
他说地狱是他年轻时在福音派教会长大时学到的第一件事。
The approach was, let's see.
方法是，让我们看看。
What's the best way that we can get the kids' attention?
我们吸引孩子注意力的最好方法是什么？
I know.
我知道。
We'll scare them.
我们会吓到他们的。
We'll say, do you like to burn?
我们会说，你喜欢燃烧吗？
No. Do you want to spend forever in darkness?
不，你想永远在黑暗中度过吗？
No. Well, then you better turn.
不，那么你最好转身。
And that's how most of us got saved was we chose because the alternative was just scary.
这就是我们大多数人选择的得救方式，因为替代方案太可怕了。
And there were movies and things like that.
还有电影之类的东西。
I remember a movie called A Thief in the Night.
我记得有一部电影叫《夜里的小偷》。
It was some low-budget, B Christian-- I don't even know if B.
这是一些低预算的，B Christian——我什至不知道 B.
It would be like C or D Christian movie that came out in the '70s with this real weird, funky music.
这就像 70 年代上映的 C 或 D 基督教电影，配上真正怪异、时髦的音乐。
And it was a dramatization of what would happen if the rapture happens.
这是对如果被提发生将会发生什么的戏剧化描述。
When the rapture happens, of course, all good Christians get lifted to heaven, leaving us sinners here on earth.
当然，当被提发生时，所有好的基督徒都会被提升到天堂，而把我们这些罪人留在地上。
Of course, there's this whole big series out now.
当然，现在整个大系列都已经出来了。
And there's movies that have been much milder even than what we saw.
有些电影甚至比我们看到的要温和得多。
But it scared the fire out of me when I was a kid.
但当我还是个孩子的时候，它吓坏了我。
Because they had these images of a kid walking across the street with a pound of butter that she borrowed from the neighbor.
因为他们有这样的图像：一个孩子拿着从邻居借来的一磅黄油过马路。
And then the next scene is the butter's laying there on the street.
下一个场景是黄油躺在街上。
And kids are screaming.
孩子们在尖叫。
And people are panicking.
人们很恐慌。
And there's this world order with this police and choppers and things like that.
还有这个世界秩序，有警察、直升机之类的东西。
Man, it scared me because every time-- and I lived in the country.
伙计，这让我很害怕，因为每次我都住在乡下。
If we're out pulling weeds in the garden, and all of a sudden I turn around, and Mom's not there anymore, I'm thinking, rapture.
如果我们出去在花园里拔杂草，突然我一转身，妈妈就不在那儿了，我心想，欣喜若狂。
And sure enough it'd get dark, and Mom and Dad weren't around.
果然天黑了，爸爸妈妈都不在了。
I'm looking-- I had my list of people that I could call that I knew would-- I knew they would get Raptured if it ever came to that.
我正在寻找——我有一份我可以打电话给他们的名单，我知道他们会被提——如果真的发生了，他们会被提的。
And sure enough, I actually put it to the test a couple of times because I thought the rapture had happened.
果然，我实际上对其进行了几次测试，因为我认为被提已经发生了。
So I went to the phone, and I'd call just to hear their voice answer.
所以我就去打电话，只是为了听听他们的声音接听。
I was like, oh, good.
我当时想，哦，很好。
She's there.
她就在那儿。
OK.
好的。
The rapture didn't happen.
狂喜并没有发生。
Because she's my Aunt May.
因为她是我的梅阿姨。
And she was a missionary in Haiti for 28 years.
她在海地当了28年的传教士。
She's definitely going on the first round.
她肯定会进入第一轮。
At this time, has everyone gotten a plate?
这时候，大家都拿到盘子了吗？
Because we have plenty of food and plenty of service.
因为我们有充足的食物和充足的服务。
It's September 2005 at the Higher Dimensions 25th Anniversary Banquet.
时间是2005年9月，高维25周年庆典晚宴。
It's a big meeting room packed with 100 people or so.
这是一个很大的会议室，大约有100人左右。
Despite a huge cake and colorful streamers and children running around popping balloons, it doesn't exactly feel like a celebration.
尽管有一个巨大的蛋糕和色彩缤纷的彩带，孩子们围着气球跑来跑去，但这并不完全感觉像是一场庆祝活动。
Carlton hadn't been looking forward to it, thinking it was going to remind him too much of what he'd lost.
卡尔顿并没有期待它，认为这会让他想起太多他失去的东西。
There's something melancholic in the air.
空气中弥漫着忧郁的气息。
I wander around and talk to people.
我四处闲逛并与人们交谈。
Most of the people here have stuck with Carlton through the whole controversy.
在整个争议中，这里的大多数人都支持卡尔顿。
It wasn't easy for anyone.
这对任何人来说都不容易。
Youth Pastor Steve Palmer jokes, this is what happens to a church when you get rid of hell.
青年牧师史蒂夫·帕尔默开玩笑说，这就是当你摆脱地狱时教会会发生的事情。
Threat of judgment day sure is easy to pack a church out.
审判日的威胁肯定很容易把教堂挤走。
That and a good fried chicken meal, you will get people to come.
再加上一顿美味的炸鸡，你就会吸引人们前来。
That fear factor is definitely effective.
这种恐惧因素肯定是有效的。
And I think if we take away the requirements of coming to church and paying your dues and say that that's nice but it's not necessary, you can put some guys out of a job.
我认为，如果我们取消去教堂和缴纳会费的要求，并说这很好，但没有必要，你可以让一些人失业。
Here I am.
我在这里。
I'm believing this stuff, and I may be putting myself out of a job.
我相信这些东西，我可能会让自己失业。
I've heard newcomers say that the first question they get asked when they move to Tulsa is what church do you go to?
我听新移民说，当他们搬到塔尔萨时，他们被问到的第一个问题是你去哪个教堂？
The question isn't meant to be confrontational.
这个问题并不意味着是对抗性的。
It's like asking someone what they majored in in college.
这就像问某人在大学里学什么专业一样。
But when your minister's a heretic, you're a heretic too.
但当你的牧师是异端分子时，你也是异端分子。
Teresa Reed is a longtime member of Higher Dimensions.
特蕾莎·里德是高维组织的长期成员。
She used to believe it was her duty as a Christian to save everyone from hell.
她曾经相信，作为基督徒，她有责任将每个人从地狱中拯救出来。
Now she can't talk to her family about church.
现在她无法与家人谈论教堂。
Friends have stopped associating with her.
朋友们已经不再与她交往了。
Even going outside is dicey.
就连出去也很危险。
One time, we were out just for a walk, minding our own business.
有一次，我们出去散步，忙着自己的事。
And some neighbors down the street, they knew that we went to Higher Dimensions and the theological shift.
街上的一些邻居知道我们去了更高的维度和神学的转变。
They came.
他们来了。
They knew that was their opportunity.
他们知道这是他们的机会。
So they came, and they kind of accosted us on our walk and asked us what our beliefs were.
所以他们来了，他们在我们散步的时候和我们搭话，问我们的信仰是什么。
Only in Tulsa, right?
只在塔尔萨，对吧？
They stopped us and asked us.
他们拦住我们并询问我们。
They said, you guys still go to Higher Dimensions?
他们说，你们还去更高维度吗？
And we said, yeah.
我们说，是的。
And they said, and your pastor doesn't believe in hell anymore?
他们说，你的牧师不再相信地狱了？
And I said, well, we have questions about it.
我说，好吧，我们对此有疑问。
Oh, we think that's a really dangerous thing.
哦，我们认为这是一件非常危险的事情。
You shouldn't tamper with hell.
你不应该篡改地狱。
And they wanted to have a conversation with us.
他们想与我们交谈。
They wanted to stop us in the middle of our Sunday afternoon walk.
他们想在周日下午散步时阻止我们。
We're in our subdivision.
我们在我们的分区。
And so I was pretty ticked at that.
所以我对此非常不满。
And I said, look, let's talk about this another time.
我说，听着，我们下次再讨论这个问题吧。
We're out having our walk.
我们出去散步了。
And we just sort of brushed them off.
我们只是对他们不屑一顾。
But they felt no inhibition about letting us know that we were going down the wrong path.
但他们毫不犹豫地让我们知道我们走错了路。
I've had that experience in the grocery store.
我在杂货店就有过这样的经历。
And how did that make you feel?
这让你感觉如何？
I mean your neighbor comes up to you and basically tells you you're going to hell.
我的意思是，你的邻居走到你面前，基本上告诉你，你会下地狱。
I mean what's your reaction?
我的意思是你的反应是什么？
It makes it seem even more ridiculous to me, the whole mindset that I grew up with.
这让我觉得更加荒谬，我成长过程中的整个心态。
When I look at it and I experience it from the other side, as the target of the proselytism, it makes it that much more clear to me that what we have done from my background to people of other faiths has been really pretty insensitive and pretty mean, even though we did it in the name of God and even though we meant well.
当我从另一面看待它并体验它时，作为改变宗教信仰的目标，这让我更加清楚，我们以我的背景对其他信仰的人所做的事情确实相当麻木和卑鄙，尽管我们是以上帝的名义这样做的，尽管我们的本意是好的。
When someone comes up to me and tries to tell me that I should change or else I'm going to hell, I kind of have compassion on that person because they don't really know how that sounds.
当有人来找我并试图告诉我我应该改变，否则我会下地狱时，我有点同情那个人，因为他们真的不知道这听起来如何。
They don't realize how mean-spirited that sounds.
他们没有意识到这听起来有多么卑鄙。
It kind of pisses me off sometimes.
有时这有点让我生气。
I'm not going to lie about that.
我不会对此撒谎。
But I understand where they're coming from.
但我明白他们从哪里来。
And I'm thinking, oh my god, did I ever do that to anybody?
我在想，天哪，我对任何人做过这样的事吗？
It's not all bad.
这并不全是坏事。
People here say the church is a freer place than it once was.
这里的人们说教堂比以前更自由了。
And there are some new faces.
还有一些新面孔。
One thing Carlton's learned is that if you say gay people can go to heaven, gay people start coming to your church.
卡尔顿学到的一件事是，如果你说同性恋者可以去天堂，同性恋者就会开始来到你的教堂。
And he's not in a position to turn anyone away.
而且他没有资格拒绝任何人。
On the day I saw him preach, several people in Muslim dress sat in the pews.
我看到他讲道的那天，长椅上坐着几个穿着穆斯林服装的人。
A man from the United Church of Christ, the only denomination to openly accept gay marriage, gave a guest sermon.
基督教联合教会（唯一公开接受同性婚姻的教派）的一名男子做了客座布道。
All of his detractors-- who predicted that once you stop believing in hell and sin, you start down a long, slippery slope to decadent universalism-- were wrong.
他所有的批评者——他们预测一旦你不再相信地狱和罪恶，你就会开始走上一条通往颓废的普遍主义的长坡——都是错误的。
It's a lot faster than they could have imagined.
这速度比他们想象的要快很多。
My friend, Bishop Yvette Flunder of Fellowship International in San Francisco, is a same gender loving female who has been with the same partner for about 18 years.
我的朋友，旧金山国际联谊会的伊维特·弗朗德主教 (Bishop Yvette Fluder)，是一位热爱同性的女性，她与同一个伴侣已经在一起大约 18 年了。
I spoke for one of her conferences two or three years ago.
两三年前我在她的一次会议上发言。
And they're mostly-- most of the people that were there, if not all of them, were gay, but followers of Jesus-- and Spirit-filled, tongue-talkers-- you know, deliverance.
他们大多数——在场的大多数人，如果不是全部的话，都是同性恋，但是耶稣的追随者——以及被圣灵充满、能说方言的人——你知道，拯救。
The whole thing.
整个事情。
When I finished speaking-- and this has never happened to me in the history of my life-- when I finished preaching, they stood and applauded me.
当我讲完后——这在我一生中从未发生过——当我讲完道后，他们起立为我鼓掌。
And I preached the gospel of inclusion.
我宣扬了包容的福音。
They stood.
他们站了起来。
And she asked me to walk down through the center aisle and let the people hug me.
她让我穿过中间的过道，让人们拥抱我。
Because she knew I'd been bruised from my other people that had kicked me out, the charismatic world.
因为她知道我受到了其他人的伤害，他们把我赶出了魅力世界。
So these people start hugging me, and holding me, and loving me, and shaking my hand.
所以这些人开始拥抱我，拥抱我，爱我，和我握手。
And everybody was crying and stuff.
每个人都在哭什么的。
And when I turned around, she had come off the-- from where she was.
当我转身时，她已经离开了——从她所在的地方。
And they had a little vat, a container with warm water in it.
他们有一个小缸，一个装着温水的容器。
And they asked me to sit down and take my shoes off.
他们让我坐下并脱掉鞋子。
And they washed my feet.
他们给我洗脚。
She washed my feet.
她给我洗脚。
That's one of the holiest moments of my life.
那是我一生中最神圣的时刻之一。
When we finished, they brought in her vestments-- African-style things-- The guy that was in front, it was a dancer, a male dancer.
当我们完成后，他们带来了她的法衣——非洲风格的东西——前面那个人，是一个舞者，一个男舞者。
And he was very, very flaming gay, just very feminine.
他非常非常热情，非常有女人味。
And this guy was dancing conspicuously.
而且这个家伙跳舞的样子很引人注目。
Beautiful music was playing.
美妙的音乐正在播放。
This guy was dancing down.
这家伙正在跳舞。
But he never looked at anybody but her.
但除了她，他从来不看任何人。
He just looked straight at Yvette.
他只是直视着江一楠。
And he got all the way down to her, like this close, and their eyes locked.
他一路走到她身边，就这么近，他们的目光交汇在一起。
And for a moment, there was nobody in the room but that man, that woman.
有一瞬间，房间里除了那个男人、那个女人之外没有其他人。
And I heard the spirit of God say inside of me, she saved his life.
我听到神的灵在我心里说，她救了他的命。
And you saw nothing but incredible love.
而你只看到了令人难以置信的爱。
When the service was over, I went back to my room.
仪式结束后，我回到自己的房间。
And she called.
她打电话来了。
How'd it go, Bishop?
怎么样，主教？
How are you?
你好吗？
Are you-- everything OK?
你——一切还好吗？
I said, oh, it was wonderful.
我说，哦，太棒了。
It was wonderful.
太棒了。
And I told her some of what I just told you.
我告诉了她我刚才告诉你的一些事情。
And I said, now, tell me about the young man who danced in front.
我说，现在，告诉我关于前面跳舞的年轻人的事。
I said, Yvette, when he got down to the front, you guys, your eyes locked.
我说，伊薇特，当他走到前面时，你们，你们的目光锁定了。
And there was nobody in that room but you and him.
那个房间里除了你和他之外没有人。
And I heard the Holy Ghost say, you saved his life.
我听到圣灵说，你救了他的命。
And she started crying.
她开始哭泣。
Because he walked over and whispered something in her ear and then kissed her.
因为他走过去，在她耳边低语了几句，然后吻了她。
And that's what he said.
他就是这么说的。
She told me on the phone in my room that night.
那天晚上，她在我的房间里通过电话告诉了我。
She said, he kissed me and whispered in my ear, you saved my life.
她说，他吻了我，在我耳边低语，你救了我的命。
And she said, that is the son of a preacher, Pentecostal preacher, whose dad won't talk to him, and won't receive him, and has rejected him totally.
她说，那是一位牧师的儿子，五旬节派牧师，他的父亲不会和他说话，不会接待他，并且完全拒绝了他。
He came to me dying.
他临死前来到我身边。
He's dying of AIDS now, she said.
她说，他现在正死于艾滋病。
He was supposed to be dead.
他本来应该死了。
When he came here, he was just gaunt and nothing.
当他来到这里时，他只是憔悴不堪，什么也没有。
But we've been ministering to him and nurturing him and what have you.
但我们一直在照顾他、培养他等等。
And he's still here.
而他还在这里。
And when I saw-- I spoke for them last summer.
当我看到——去年夏天我为他们说话。
He's still there.
他还在那里。
Carlton Pearson says that if he'd known when he first started preaching the gospel of inclusion that it would cost him so much, he would have never opened his mouth.
卡尔顿·皮尔森说，如果他一开始传播包容福音时就知道这会让他付出如此大的代价，他就永远不会开口说话。
To the man he was then, the life he leads now, consorting with sinners and gays and Unitarians, was terrifying.
对于当时的他来说，他现在过着与罪人、同性恋者和一神论者交往的生活，这是可怕的。
But he says that God doesn't show you everything at once for a reason.
但他说上帝不会立即向你展示一切是有原因的。
And now that what's done is done, there's no way he'd go back.
现在事情已经过去了，他不可能再回头了。
After all, when you get down to it, it's a lot easier to believe in a world without hell.
毕竟，当你认真思考时，就会更容易相信世界上没有地狱。
For one thing, you don't have to worry about saving everybody.
一方面，你不必担心拯救所有人。
The guilt of not witnessing to every single person you meet-- I'd get on an airplane-- having preached my brains out, stayed up all night, worked the altar, then ate with the preaches, and got up early in the morning to get a flight.
没有向你遇到的每一个人作见证而感到内疚——我会登上飞机——费尽心力讲道，熬夜，在祭坛上工作，然后一边讲道一边吃饭，然后一大早就起床赶飞机。
I get on the plane.
我上飞机了。
I need to go to sleep.
我需要去睡觉了。
But I should witness to the guy next to me.
但我应该向我旁边的那个人作见证。
Somehow, I have to figure out a way to open up a conversation.
无论如何，我必须找到一种方式来展开对话。
So I need to put my Bible on my lap so he can ask me about the Lord, or wear my cross, or something to open up the door.
所以我需要把圣经放在腿上，这样他就可以向我询问有关主的事，或者戴上我的十字架，或者做一些可以打开门的东西。
Or either, I have to basically confront him and say, well, how are you doing, sir?
或者，我基本上必须面对他并说，好吧，你好吗，先生？
Do you know where you're going to spend eternity?
你知道你要在哪里度过永恒吗？
You're probably going to hell, but I can help you.
你可能会下地狱，但我可以帮助你。
Then I have to talk for two hours on a plane and either tick the person off, or be insulted by the person, or insult the person.
然后我必须在飞机上谈两个小时，要么惹恼那个人，要么被那个人侮辱，要么侮辱那个人。
It's horrible, guys.
太可怕了，伙计们。
In a way, what Carlton's doing isn't so different from what Oral Roberts, the man he calls his mentor and tormentor, did half a century ago.
在某种程度上，卡尔顿所做的事情与半个世纪前他称之为导师和折磨者的奥罗·罗伯茨所做的事情并没有太大不同。
Roberts took Pentecostalism and made it mainstream by emphasizing the positive and downplaying the hellfire.
罗伯茨通过强调积极的一面并淡化地狱之火，将五旬节主义纳入主流。
Carlton took it to the next step and got rid of the hell.
卡尔顿更进一步，摆脱了地狱。
It's unclear whether there's a market for Carlton's new gospel.
目前还不清楚卡尔顿的新福音书是否有市场。
There are liberal wings of many Protestant denominations, and the Unitarians stopped believing in hell a long time ago.
许多新教教派都有自由派，一神论者很久以前就不再相信地狱了。
So for evangelicals looking for a more inclusive message, there are plenty of other places to go.
因此，对于寻求更具包容性信息的福音派人士来说，还有很多其他地方可以去。
But these places don't deliver the message the way evangelicals are used to hearing it.
但这些地方并没有以福音派惯用的方式传递信息。
Carlton still preaches that the blood of Christ is the way to heaven.
卡尔顿仍然宣扬基督的宝血是通往天堂的道路。
He just says it covers everyone.
他只是说它涵盖了所有人。
Listen to me when I tell you this.
当我告诉你这个的时候，听我说。
God is not angry with humanity.
上帝并不对人类生气。
He said, I'm not going to strive with them, because they're mortal.
他说，我不会和他们斗争，因为他们都是凡人。
So Jesus, fix it.
所以耶稣，解决它。
You're the only-- as my dad would say, you're the "onliest" perfect one I could find.
你是唯一的——正如我父亲所说，你是我能找到的“唯一”完美的人。
You are the lamb without blemish or spot.
你是没有瑕疵、没有斑点的羔羊。
Go down there and cover them.
下去盖住他们。
I've got to see them through you.
我必须通过你看到他们。
I see them all through the blood.
我通过血液看到了他们。
Glory to God.
荣耀归于神。
He doesn't just see Americans through the blood, or Tulsans, or people living in the western hemisphere.
他不仅仅通过血统来看待美国人、图尔桑人或生活在西半球的人们。
He sees them all through the blood.
他通过血液看到了他们。
That is the gospel of Jesus Christ.
这就是耶稣基督的福音。
(SINGING) All you gotta do is know the truth.
（唱）你所要做的就是了解真相。
The truth you know will set you free.
你所知道的真相会让你自由。
That story by Russell Cobb.
拉塞尔·科布的故事。
He's a professor at the University of Alberta in Canada.
他是加拿大阿尔伯塔大学的教授。
In the years since we first broadcast today's story, Higher Dimensions Church went through foreclosure and shut its doors.
自从我们第一次广播今天的故事以来的几年里，高维教会经历了止赎并关门了。
Carlton Pearson does still preach in Tulsa at All Souls Unitarian Church.
卡尔顿·皮尔逊仍然在塔尔萨的万灵一神论教堂讲道。
And he travels, lecturing and speaking.
他还旅行、演讲和演讲。
He's written a book outlining where his beliefs have landed and explaining his reading of the scripture.
他写了一本书，概述了他的信仰的落地点，并解释了他对经文的解读。
It's called The Gospel of Inclusion.
这就是所谓的包容福音。
Free.
自由的。
Carlton Pearson From all of my bondage.
卡尔顿·皮尔森 摆脱我所有的束缚。
Free--
免费——
Free.
免费。
Carlton Pearson From all of the hangups.
卡尔顿·皮尔森（Carlton Pearson）摆脱了所有的困扰。
Free--
免费——
Free.
免费。
Carlton Pearson In my mind.
卡尔顿·皮尔森 在我心中。
Free in my spirit.
我的精神是自由的。
Free in my body.
在我体内自由。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
I know I'm free.
我知道我自由了。
Our program was produced today by Alex Blumberg and myself with Diane Cook, Jane Marie, Sarah Koenig, Amy O'Leary, and Lisa Pollak.
今天我们的节目由 Alex Blumberg 和我本人以及 Diane Cook、Jane Marie、Sarah Koenig、Amy O'Leary 和 Lisa Pollak 制作。
Our senior producer for this episode was Julie Snyder.
我们本集的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Our technical director is Matt Tierney.
我们的技术总监是马特·蒂尔尼。
Production help from Alvin Melathe.
Alvin Melathe 提供制作帮助。
Musical help from Jessica Hopper.
杰西卡·霍珀的音乐帮助。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org, where we have links right now to the trailer for our Netflix film, Come Sunday, and really entertaining video of the real-life Carlton Pearson.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org，现在提供 Netflix 电影《Come Sunday》预告片的链接，以及真实生活中的 Carlton Pearson 的非常有趣的视频。
Again, thisamericanlife.org.
再说一次，thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is distributed by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 发行。
Thanks as always to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia, who is always saying to me--
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生，他总是对我说——
"We like you around here.
“我们喜欢你在这里。
You are my black son, and I need you by my side."
你是我的黑人儿子，我需要你在我身边。”
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。