303: David and Goliath - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #303 | December 28, 2007 303: David and Goliath Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 303 集 | 2007 年 12 月 28 日 303：大卫与歌利亚 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass It's a classic David and Goliath situation.
序言 艾拉·格拉斯 这是经典的大卫与歌利亚的情景。
Younger sister and older sister.
妹妹和姐姐。
In this case, it's a big age gap.
在这种情况下，年龄差距就很大了。
The older sister's 12.
姐姐12岁了。
That's Kennedy.
那是肯尼迪。
The younger sister's just 5.
妹妹才5岁。
That's Zadie.
那是扎迪。
And their mom, who was an only child, found their fighting to be kind of overwhelming.
他们的妈妈是独生子，她发现他们的争吵让人难以承受。
They bicker constantly.
他们不断地争吵。
They just fight and are at each other.
他们只是打架并且互相攻击。
[CRYING] Lisa Laborde It's not physical, but it's a constant natter.
[哭泣]丽莎·拉博德 这不是身体上的问题，而是一种持续的闲聊。
It's a constant back-and-forth.
这是一个不断的来回。
So, two months ago, their mom, Lisa, came up with an idea, a way to change things between the two girls.
因此，两个月前，她们的妈妈丽莎想出了一个主意，一种改变两个女孩之间关系的方法。
She and I talked about it back then.
当时我和她就聊过这件事。
You're going to notice in this recording that I have a pretty bad cold when we had this conversation.
你会在这段录音中注意到，当我们进行这次谈话时，我得了重感冒。
At the time, Lisa described for me the girls' history together.
当时，丽莎向我描述了女孩们在一起的历史。
Once Zadie realized, when she was about two, that Kennedy wasn't going to play with her, she would do things like pinch her.
当扎迪大约两岁的时候，当她意识到肯尼迪不会和她一起玩时，她就会做一些事情，比如掐她。
She would scratch her.
她会抓伤她。
She would bite her.
她会咬她。
She wants her attention.
她想要引起她的注意。
Lisa Laborde Notice me, you know.
丽莎·拉博德 请注意我，你知道。
I want to adore you.
我想崇拜你。
Let me.
让我。
Yeah.
是的。
I have this relationship with my wife.
我和我的妻子有这种关系。
We'll be sitting on the couch, and she'll hit me.
我们会坐在沙发上，她会打我。
Play with me.
和我一起玩吧。
Ira Glass Exactly.
艾拉·格拉斯 没错。
She'll literally say, pay attention to me.
她会直接说，注意我。
I like you.
我喜欢你。
Lisa Laborde Zadie, get up.
丽莎·拉博德·扎迪，站起来。
Get off of Kennedy.
离开肯尼迪。
I like her.
我喜欢她。
Lisa Laborde Zadie, please get off.
丽莎·拉博德·扎迪，请下车。
I like her.
我喜欢她。
Lisa Laborde Mute that for a second?
丽莎·拉博德（Lisa Laborde）静音一下？
So as Zadie got older, Kennedy now sees her as this little kid who can't really play, who is a nuisance, who can pick out what's going to bug Kennedy and do it.
因此，随着扎迪年龄的增长，肯尼迪现在将她视为一个不会真正玩耍的小孩子，她是一个讨厌的人，她可以找出什么会困扰肯尼迪并做到这一点。
And what was the low point of all this?
这一切的最低点是什么？
When did you look around you and just think, What am I doing as a parent?
你什么时候环顾四周，只是想，作为父母我在做什么？
I guess this summer, when they were both home from school and fighting all the time.
我猜是今年夏天，当时他们都放学回家，一直在吵架。
And I just realized, it's not changing.
我刚刚意识到，它并没有改变。
And if it doesn't change now, it's not going to change.
如果现在不改变，那就不会改变。
Because they're both getting-- I think Zadie's now getting old enough to form this opinion of her sister.
因为他们都——我认为扎迪现在已经足够大了，可以对她姐姐形成这样的看法了。
And I thought, I don't want that opinion to be that they're not allies.
我想，我不希望人们认为他们不是盟友。
I don't want it to be that they're not friends.
我不希望他们不是朋友。
Now's the time to do something.
现在是时候做点什么了。
And so what's your plan?
那么你的计划是什么？
Lisa Laborde What we're going to do is this little experiment called the Kill Her With Kindness Experiment.
丽莎·拉博德（Lisa Laborde） 我们要做的是这个小实验，名为“用善意杀死她”实验。
I gave it a name.
我给它起了个名字。
So are you some sort of behavioral psychologist or something?
那么你是行为心理学家还是什么？
Oh, God, no. No, I just went on the internet to junior high science experiments and got a whole bunch of stuff and presented it to Ken.
哦，上帝，不。不，我只是上网做初中科学实验，得到了一大堆东西，然后把它呈现给肯。
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
哇，哇，哇。
OK, you have the two people who are most precious to you in this world, and you have a problem, and the thought that occurs to you is not, I'm going to seek professional help.
好吧，你有这个世界上最珍贵的两个人，你遇到了问题，但你的想法不是，我要寻求专业帮助。
I'm going to go to a family counselor.
我要去见家庭顾问。
No, what you did is that you went onto the internet and found experiments at a junior high school, not even at the high school level?
不，你做的就是上网找初中实验，连高中水平都没有？
No. OK, that's the end.
不，好吧，就这样结束了。
That's not where I started.
那不是我开始的地方。
I read all the books, and I talked to all my friends.
我读了所有的书，也和所有的朋友交谈过。
When David is facing off against Goliath, nothing normal is going to work.
当大卫对抗歌利亚时，任何正常的事情都行不通。
Normal is just going to keep you stuck.
正常只会让你陷入困境。
If you've got a situation where one side is super-powerful, one side is very weak, normal is just status quo.
如果你遇到一种情况，一方超强，一方非常弱，那么正常就是维持现状。
Nothing is going to change.
一切都不会改变。
Your only chance is grand, extraordinary measures.
你唯一的机会就是采取宏伟、非凡的措施。
A junior high school experiment?
初中实验？
That is about as good as a slingshot.
这大约和弹弓一样好。
And today on our program, we're going to bring you three stories of people trying extraordinary things to balance the scales between David and Goliath.
今天在我们的节目中，我们将为您带来三个故事，讲述人们尝试非凡的事情来平衡大卫和歌利亚之间的天平。
Act One is about a little girl and a big girl.
第一幕是关于一个小女孩和一个大女孩的。
Act Two is about a little country and a big country.
第二幕是关于一个小国家和一个大国。
Act Three is about some small-minded people and some very big-minded retail chains, and something about American commerce that happens all the time, everywhere, that no one has noticed is a national phenomenon except David Sedaris.
第三幕讲述的是一些心胸狭隘的人和一些胸怀大志的零售连锁店，以及美国商业中随时随地发生的一些事情，除了大卫·塞达里斯(David Sedaris)之外，没有人注意到这是一种全国性现象。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
OK, so you remember where we are with Act One.
好的，所以你还记得我们在第一幕中所处的位置。
You've got Zadie, you've got Kennedy, and their story.
你有扎迪，你有肯尼迪，还有他们的故事。
Their mom, two months ago, was explaining to me how she was going to try to solve one of the oldest struggles that humans have ever had, the struggle between big sibling and little sibling.
两个月前，他们的妈妈向我解释她将如何尝试解决人类有史以来最古老的斗争之一，即哥哥姐姐和弟弟妹妹之间的斗争。
Again, we've got a 12-year-old.
再说一次，我们有一个 12 岁的孩子。
We've got a 5-year-old.
我们有一个5岁的孩子。
Two months ago, the mom, Lisa, went to the older girl, Kennedy, with a plan.
两个月前，妈妈丽莎带着一个计划去找大女儿肯尼迪。
And Kennedy is the kind of 12-year-old who loves reading, who loves science, who loves experiments.
而肯尼迪是那种热爱读书、热爱科学、热爱实验的12岁孩子。
And Lisa explained the idea of this one to her.
丽莎向她解释了这个想法。
We're going to have a month-long experiment where Kennedy is actually really kind to Zadie and plays with her.
我们将进行为期一个月的实验，肯尼迪实际上对扎迪非常友善并与她一起玩耍。
And we're going to see if that chills Zadie out at all.
我们要看看这是否会让扎迪感到冷静。
We're going to see if that changes Zadie's behavior.
我们将看看这是否会改变扎迪的行为。
So the whole thing, I guess, has been sold to Kennedy as behavior modification.
所以我猜，整件事已经作为行为矫正卖给了肯尼迪。
Wait, wait.
等等，等等。
Are those the words that you used with Kennedy?
这是你对肯尼迪说过的话吗？
I did.
我做到了。
I told her it was a behavior modification experiment.
我告诉她这是一个行为改变实验。
Yeah.
是的。
How I see it as a parent is, I want them actually to interact with each other.
作为父母，我的看法是，我希望他们能够真正互动。
But that's not what I sold to Kennedy.
但这不是我卖给肯尼迪的。
I haven't really sold it to her as modifying her behavior at all.
我根本没有把它卖给她来改变她的行为。
I sold it solely as modifying Zadie's behavior.
我出售它只是为了改变扎迪的行为。
So this is going to cut Zadie down from irritating Kennedy, from being a pain to Kennedy, touching her stuff, going in her room when she doesn't want her to.
因此，这将减少扎迪激怒肯尼迪，避免让肯尼迪感到痛苦，避免碰她的东西，在她不希望的时候进入她的房间。
If Kennedy's drawing on a piece of paper and Zadie comes by and will step on, like, that kind of behavior that Kennedy sees as an absolute pain.
如果肯尼迪在一张纸上画画，扎迪走过来踩到肯尼迪认为绝对痛苦的行为。
I've sold it to her as, Let's see if what Zadie actually wants is you to play with her and pay attention to her.
我把它卖给了她，让我们看看 Zadie 是否真正想要的是你和她一起玩并关注她。
So let's see if you doing that is going to stop all the negative behavior.
所以让我们看看你这样做是否会阻止所有负面行为。
So what she's going to have to do is, after school, spend-- I say an hour.
所以她要做的就是放学后花——我说一个小时。
She says that's going to be too long, and Zadie's not going to want to play for an hour.
她说这太长了，扎迪一个小时都不想玩。
But that's what I'm envisioning, an hour playing together.
但这就是我的设想，一起玩一个小时。
Every day.
每天。
Lisa Laborde Every day.
丽莎·拉博德 每天。
I'm going to pay her, which is probably what she likes the best.
我要付钱给她，这可能是她最喜欢的。
How much is she going to get?
她会得到多少钱？
Lisa Laborde She's going to get quite a bit.
丽莎·拉博德（Lisa Laborde）：她会得到很多。
She upped it.
她提高了它。
She actually negotiated her price.
她实际上协商了价格。
I said $50 for the whole month.
我说的是整个月50美元。
And she said, No way.
她说，不可能。
It wasn't worth buying in for $50.
花 50 美元购买并不值得。
So she's going to get $100.
所以她会得到100美元。
But she's got to actually do it.
但她必须真正做到这一点。
She's got to actually play with her sister.
她必须和她妹妹一起玩。
And they think my idea of what siblings-- how they interact is totally unrealistic.
他们认为我对兄弟姐妹以及他们如何互动的想法完全不现实。
The Sound of Music.
音乐之声。
I mean, my ideal is that they get along, that they love each other, that they stand up for each other on the playground, that they--
我的意思是，我的理想是他们和睦相处，彼此相爱，在操场上互相支持，他们——
--sing together.
——一起唱歌。
Lisa Laborde --sing together.
丽莎·拉博德——一起唱歌。
Which is so funny, because that has a lot to do, probably, with being an only child and always wanting a sister or a brother or just a sibling, another relationship.
这很有趣，因为这可能与作为独生子并且总是想要一个姐妹或兄弟或只是兄弟姐妹或另一种关系有很大关系。
I was raised watching that movie over and over, and really having that sense of all these kids band together.
我是在一遍又一遍地观看这部电影的过程中长大的，真的有一种所有这些孩子团结在一起的感觉。
But, of course, they band together-- like, those poor kids, they're traumatized.
但是，当然，他们团结在一起——就像那些可怜的孩子一样，他们受到了创伤。
Their father's a tyrant.
他们的父亲是个暴君。
Of course they band together, right?
他们当然团结在一起了，对吧？
Exactly.
确切地。
Not till the end.
不到最后。
[MUSIC - "THE LONELY GOATHERD" BY RODGERS AND HAMMERSTEIN]
[音乐 - 罗杰斯和汉默斯坦的《孤独的牧羊人》]
Have you shown The Sound of Music to the girls?
你给女孩们看过《音乐之声》吗？
This is what you should do.
这是你应该做的。
Ira Glass You haven't.
艾拉·格拉斯：你没有。
No. I've said things like, Just stop fighting and love each other.
不，我说过这样的话：停止争吵，彼此相爱。
Though I have said that, and meant it.
尽管我已经这么说了，而且也是这个意思。
And I've said-- yeah.
我说过——是的。
I mean, Kennedy says to me, Your idea is absolutely unrealistic.
我的意思是，肯尼迪对我说，你的想法绝对不现实。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, you didn't have siblings.
是的，你没有兄弟姐妹。
I mean, I think it's very, very possible that, because of the age difference-- you've got two kids, they're seven years apart.
我的意思是，我认为很有可能，因为年龄差异——你有两个孩子，他们相差七岁。
They're never going to be peers until they're adults some day.
在有一天他们成年之前，他们永远不会成为同龄人。
I just think it's possible that there's nothing that you can do.
我只是觉得你可能无能为力。
You're right.
你说得对。
The thing is, I am not expecting them to interact as peers.
问题是，我并不期望他们像同伴一样互动。
But right now, it's the opposite of that.
但现在，情况恰恰相反。
I think Kennedy actively dislikes her.
我认为肯尼迪非常不喜欢她。
She says it like that.
她是这么说的。
She says it like, I really don't like this kid.
她说得好像，我真的不喜欢这个孩子。
What do you think the chances are that this is going to succeed, if you just had to lay odds?
如果你只需要打赌的话，你认为这件事成功的可能性有多大？
80% chance?
80%的机会？
70% chance?
70%的机会？
90% chance?
90%的机会？
I'm optimistic.
我很乐观。
I'd put it high.
我会把它放在高位。
I put it at 80% that it's going to decrease the amount of fighting.
我认为 80% 会减少战斗量。
Yes.
是的。
I'm going to put this at 30%.
我会把这个比例定为 30%。
Lisa Laborde [GROANS].
丽莎·拉博德[呻吟]。
So, Lisa LaBorde, many weeks have passed since our first conversation.
丽莎·拉博德（Lisa LaBorde），自从我们第一次谈话以来已经过去了很多个星期。
And you have run your experiment.
您已经进行了实验。
Did it work?
有效吗？
A qualified yes.
合格的是。
Ira Glass Well, let's get right to results.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：好吧，让我们开始讨论结果吧。
Are your kids fighting less?
你的孩子打架少了吗？
By the end of the experiment, they were fighting less.
实验结束时，他们的争斗次数减少了。
By week four, less fighting.
到第四周，战斗就会减少。
You are blowing my mind.
你让我大吃一惊。
Lisa Laborde No, it's actually true.
丽莎·拉博德：不，这确实是真的。
OK, sure.
好的，当然。
Ira Glass Do you have a bar graph that you could hold up to the microphone or something?
Ira Glass 你有一个可以放在麦克风或其他东西上的条形图吗？
Yes, I can describe it to you.
是的，我可以向你描述它。
What we did is-- it's just a graph.
我们所做的是——这只是一个图表。
So I took the baseline-- a normal week, before we started the experiment, of fighting.
所以我采取了基线——在我们开始实验之前的正常一周，战斗。
But I didn't do all the fighting, because that's all I would have categorized.
但我并没有参与所有的战斗，因为这就是我所归类的全部。
All day, I would have sat there checking off things.
一整天，我都会坐在那里检查事情。
So I checked the number of times I had to intervene.
所以我检查了我必须干预的次数。
In a normal week, I charted 31.
在正常的一周里，我的成绩是 31。
Per day or per week?
每天还是每周？
Lisa Laborde Per week.
丽莎·拉博德 每周。
A drop of 50%.
下降了50%。
Now, you made recordings of these days where they were playing, where you would just set the tape recorder down with the two of them as they played and you just would let it roll.
现在，你录制了他们演奏的这些天的录音，当他们演奏时，你只需将录音机与他们两个一起放下，然后就可以让它滚动。
And we have some of those recordings here.
我们这里有一些录音。
And here's a typical one.
这是一个典型的例子。
They start off OK.
他们一开始还不错。
[UNINTELLIGIBLE] Ira Glass And then they start to fight.
[无法理解] Ira Glass 然后他们开始打架。
Can I mine out?
我可以挖出来吗？
Kennedy No, you can't do that.
肯尼迪：不，你不能那样做。
That's cheating.
那是作弊。
I want to get mine out.
我想把我的拿出来。
Kennedy Zadie, Zadie, wait, stop for a second, please.
肯尼迪·扎迪，扎迪，等等，请停一下。
And then, in these early recordings, you step in, usually to Zadie's defense.
然后，在这些早期录音中，你介入，通常是为扎迪辩护。
Kennedy?
肯尼迪？
You're supposed to be playing together.
你们应该一起玩。
And that was sort of what happened.
这就是发生的事情。
I stepped in often.
我经常介入。
I mean, it got to a level where, rather than have them fight, I would just stop it.
我的意思是，事情发展到了这样的程度，我宁愿阻止他们，也不愿让他们打架。
And I cut Zadie a tremendous amount of slack.
我对扎迪的要求也大大降低了。
So I could see how I fed into Kennedy's frustration and into Zadie's sense of entitlement.
所以我可以看到我是如何陷入肯尼迪的挫败感和扎迪的权利感的。
So in a way, I was setting up a dynamic that didn't allow them to sort it out.
所以在某种程度上，我正在设置一种不允许他们解决问题的动态。
It's interesting, because I think the experiment-- I didn't expect the effect that it would have on me.
这很有趣，因为我认为这个实验——我没想到它会对我产生影响。
It made me step back.
这让我退了一步。
It made me step back a lot.
这让我后退了很多。
Yeah, I had to say, by the end of the taping-- because you keep taping the whole way through-- it totally changes.
是的，我不得不说，在录音结束时——因为你一直在录音——它完全改变了。
Here's a typical tape.
这是一个典型的磁带。
What happens is that they're playing together, and they'll start to fight.
发生的情况是，他们在一起玩耍，然后他们就会开始打架。
There's a recording of them playing Memory.
有一段他们演奏《记忆》的录音。
And Zadie screams.
扎迪尖叫起来。
No, I don't want to do that.
不，我不想那样做。
Ira Glass And then Kennedy just basically keeps the game going, and starts talking to her about who her friends are at school.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）然后肯尼迪基本上让游戏继续进行，并开始与她谈论她在学校的朋友是谁。
Are you making friends at your new school?
你在新学校交到朋友了吗？
Emma, Becca.
艾玛、贝卡。
Ira Glass And you never enter the room.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 你永远不会进入房间。
And then Kennedy basically takes it by the reins.
然后肯尼迪基本上就掌控了一切。
She keeps the game going, and she basically engages Zadie in conversation.
她让游戏继续进行，并且她基本上与 Zadie 进行对话。
And they start to talk like real sisters.
他们开始像真正的姐妹一样说话。
And then Zadie wins.
然后扎迪获胜。
And that interaction wouldn't have occurred had I jumped in, which I probably would have done two or three weeks prior.
如果我介入的话，这种互动就不会发生，而我可能会在两三周前就这样做。
So, by the end of it, it was like, you know what, back off and just leave it alone.
所以，到最后，就像是，你知道吗，退后，别管它了。
So when you started, you were saying this was going to be an experiment that was secretly on the two of them.
所以当你开始的时候，你说这将是一个对他们两个秘密进行的实验。
But Kennedy thought it was just on Zadie.
但肯尼迪认为这只是扎迪的问题。
But in fact, it turns out that the secret is that it was actually an experiment on your behavior.
但事实上，事实证明，秘密在于这实际上是对你行为的实验。
Exactly.
确切地。
And that my behaviors probably needed more modifications than Kennedy's.
我的行为可能比肯尼迪需要更多的改变。
But yeah, I wouldn't have thought that a shift in my behavior would have the impact that it had.
但是，是的，我不会想到我行为的转变会产生如此的影响。
Now, this thing has totally changed your expectations and your picture of them.
现在，这件事彻底改变了你的期望和对他们的看法。
In some ways, yeah.
在某些方面，是的。
I'm loathe to admit it.
我不愿意承认这一点。
I think my overriding angst or questions over whether they would be friends, and whether the fighting meant something-- and I realized, that's not what being siblings is.
我认为我最主要的焦虑或疑问是他们是否会成为朋友，以及战斗是否意味着什么 - 我意识到，这不是兄弟姐妹的意义。
It's so complex.
太复杂了。
Zadie will say, straight out, I don't like Kennedy.
扎迪会直截了当地说，我不喜欢肯尼迪。
I don't want to play with her, and at the same time, be absolutely worried about what's happening to her sister.
我不想和她一起玩，同时又非常担心她姐姐会发生什么事。
And I realized those two coexist.
我意识到这两者是共存的。
And I don't have that.
而我没有那个。
There's nobody I have a love-hate relationship like that with.
没有人和我有这样的爱恨交加的关系。
And I don't get it.
我不明白。
And I'm prepared not to get it.
我已经准备好不得到它了。
I'm prepared to leave it alone and let it be, and realize, on some base level, they're connected.
我准备不去管它，顺其自然，并意识到，在某种程度上，它们是相互联系的。
I don't see the connection quite yet, in some ways, and that's OK.
在某些方面，我还没有看到其中的联系，但这没关系。
I can trust it, whereas before-- I guess that's the big difference for me.
我可以相信它，而以前——我想这对我来说是很大的不同。
Before I didn't really trust it.
之前我还不太相信它。
And so, how many weeks has it been since you actually stopped the experiment?
那么，自从你真正停止实验以来已经有几周了？
It's been a couple, a week and a bit, like two weeks.
已经过去了几个星期，大概两周了。
And so, what's going to happen?
那么，会发生什么？
Is Kennedy going to keep playing with her?
肯尼迪还会继续和她玩吗？
Who knows?
谁知道？
I don't know.
我不知道。
I would love to think yes.
我很乐意认为是的。
I don't know.
我不知道。
It doesn't seem like it.
看起来不像。
It's certainly not the first thing on her mind when she comes home from school.
当她放学回家时，这当然不是她想到的第一件事。
It's not like Zadie's endeared herself to Kennedy through the four weeks.
在这四个星期里，扎迪并没有赢得肯尼迪的喜爱。
That certainly hasn't happened.
那当然还没有发生。
I think she engages her a bit more, actually.
事实上，我认为她对她的参与度更高一些。
So in terms of actually talking to her about, What was school like?
因此，实际上与她谈论的是，学校是什么样的？
What did you do?
你做了什么？
There were a couple of times where Zadie got quite upset over-- she got in trouble for going into Kennedy's room.
有几次，扎迪感到非常不安——她因为进入肯尼迪的房间而惹上麻烦。
And I got very upset with Zadie and made her sit on the stairs.
我对扎迪很生气，让她坐在楼梯上。
And she ended up crying and Kennedy went and consoled her.
最后她哭了，肯尼迪走过去安慰她。
That's the first time that's ever happened.
这是第一次发生这种情况。
It's made everything so much easier, like being a sister easier.
它让一切变得更加容易，就像成为姐姐一样容易。
But I can't imagine Zadie and I singing together.
但我无法想象扎迪和我一起唱歌。
I just-- yeah.
我只是——是的。
So, Kennedy, did it work?
那么，肯尼迪，这有效吗？
Did the experiment work?
实验成功了吗？
It did.
确实如此。
She's considerably nicer and easier to be around.
她比以前友善得多，也更容易相处。
Do you like her more?
你更喜欢她吗？
Kennedy Yeah, I do.
肯尼迪 是的，我愿意。
I do like her more.
我确实更喜欢她
She's easier to be around.
她更容易相处。
I feel like I can really connect with her now, which is good.
我觉得我现在可以真正和她交流了，这很好。
Is she less annoying?
她是不是不那么烦人了？
Kennedy No, we have to work on that.
肯尼迪 不，我们必须为此努力。
We'll have to device a whole new experiment to get her to be less annoying.
我们必须设计一个全新的实验来让她不再那么烦人。
And just, realistically, do you really think you're going to be able to keep it up?
事实上，你真的认为你能够坚持下去吗？
I'm going to try.
我要尝试一下。
Maybe I can get my mom to still give me-- increase my allowance, maybe, if I keep it up.
也许我可以让我妈妈继续给我——也许增加我的零用钱，如果我坚持下去的话。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I actually don't think it's right for somebody to keep paying you to be with your sister.
事实上，我认为有人一直付钱让你和你妹妹在一起是不对的。
It'd almost be like if you found out like somebody was paying your mom to be nice to you.
这几乎就像你发现有人付钱给你妈妈来对你好一样。
It would break your heart.
这会让你心碎。
It would.
会的。
Ira Glass And that's sort of what it would be like, if your sister would ever find out.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：如果你姐姐发现了，事情就会是这样。
Like, oh, there were five years where actually you were taking money in order to be nice to her.
就像，哦，有五年你实际上是为了对她好而拿钱。
It would be the worst thing that she would ever hear.
这将是她听过的最糟糕的事情。
Yeah, I see.
是的，我明白了。
In that case, yeah, I'm going to stop, But yeah, it's a constant struggle.
在这种情况下，是的，我会停下来，但是，是的，这是一场持续的斗争。
So, what's going to happen?
那么，会发生什么呢？
Because it's hard to figure out games that you can keep playing with her.
因为很难找出可以继续和她玩的游戏。
Yeah, it's really hard.
是的，这真的很难。
Because, like, Memory, I'm beyond that.
因为，就像记忆一样，我超越了它。
I think we can safely say that.
我想我们可以有把握地说。
You can find the two kittens without a lot of trouble.
你可以毫不费力地找到那两只小猫。
Pretty easily.
很容易。
Ira Glass Do you get anything at all from playing with her?
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 你从和她一起玩中得到什么了吗？
And if you're not getting paid, do you get anything else from playing with her?
如果你没有得到报酬，你和她一起玩还能得到什么吗？
I could say that I get a sense of emotional fulfillment, but not really.
我可以说我得到了一种情感上的满足感，但事实并非如此。
Can you imagine you guys are going to be friends someday?
你能想象有一天你们会成为朋友吗？
Sort of.
有点像。
Right now, it's pretty hard to imagine us inviting each other over to dinner.
现在，很难想象我们会邀请对方共进晚餐。
I mean, she can't even read, for God's sake?
我是说，天哪，她连读书都读不了？
I know.
我知道。
Ira Glass So, do you recommend this for other families?
Ira Glass 那么，您向其他家庭推荐这个吗？
I really do.
我真的这么做。
Ira Glass You do?
艾拉·格拉斯 你知道吗？
That they should bribe one kid, and that it should be the older kid?
他们应该贿赂一个孩子，而且应该是年龄较大的孩子？
Yeah, for the people with kids who are constantly fighting, this is a good idea.
是的，对于那些经常打架的有孩子的人来说，这是一个好主意。
We could patent it and then write up charts and sell it.
我们可以为它申请专利，然后写出图表并出售它。
That's Kennedy, age 12.
那是肯尼迪，12岁。
[MUSIC - "IT'S A SHAME" BY MONIE LOVE]
[音乐 - MONIE LOVE 的“这是一种耻辱”]
Coming up, David Sedaris finds a David and Goliath story where we believe that you will probably side with-- well, that would be Goliath.
接下来，大卫·塞达里斯发现了一个大卫和歌利亚的故事，我们相信你可能会站在——嗯，那就是歌利亚一边。
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life .
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose a theme and bring you a variety of different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，我们的节目每周都会选择一个主题，并为您带来有关该主题的各种不同类型的故事。
Today's program, David and Goliath, stories of people doing extraordinary things to try to even things out between the two sides, give the little guy a shot.
今天的节目《大卫与歌利亚》讲述了人们做出非凡的事情来试图平衡双方之间的关系的故事，给小家伙一个机会。
We've arrived at Act Two of our show.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act Two, Dreams of Distant Factories.
第二幕，遥远工厂的梦想。
What if there were a battle between David and Goliath that meant a great deal to David and nothing at all to Goliath?
如果大卫和歌利亚之间发生了一场对大卫意义重大而对歌利亚毫无意义的战斗，该怎么办？
And maybe Goliath doesn't even show up.
也许歌利亚根本就没有出现。
From Cambodia, Rachel Louise Snyder tells this story about the garment industry there.
来自柬埔寨的 Rachel Louise Snyder 讲述了有关当地服装业的故事。
We first put this on the air two years ago, which was a crucial turning point for everybody involved.
两年前我们首次播出这个节目，这对于所有参与者来说都是一个关键的转折点。
The garment industry is 90% of Cambodia's exports, so when the minister of commerce visits a factory, he's greeted like a movie star.
服装业占柬埔寨出口的90%，因此当商务部长参观工厂时，他会受到像电影明星一样的欢迎。
Hundreds of workers, all of them women, stand along the factory driveway in traditional Cambodian silk dresses in maroon and gold, waving hundreds of Cambodian flags.
数百名工人（全是女性）站在工厂车道上，身穿栗色和金色的传统柬埔寨丝绸服装，挥舞着数百面柬埔寨国旗。
They offer the minister flowers and fruit.
他们向部长献上鲜花和水果。
As he walks through each section of the factory, workers stand up from their stations and cheer.
当他走过工厂的每个区域时，工人们都从自己的岗位上站起来欢呼。
Plexiglass cases hang from the ceilings and show the kinds of things they make.
有机玻璃柜悬挂在天花板上，展示着他们制作的各种物品。
Fleece sweatshirts, cotton blankets, flannel pajamas.
抓绒运动衫、棉毯、法兰绒睡衣。
The minister, Cham Prasidh, is particularly happy about the pajamas.
部长占·普拉西德 (Cham Prasidh) 对睡衣特别满意。
There is one thing that we feel very proud, is that there is one year when Cambodia was ranking number one, in terms of pajamas, women's pajamas, for--
我们感到非常自豪的一件事是，有一年柬埔寨在睡衣、女式睡衣方面排名第一，因为——
Women's pajamas?
女式睡衣？
Cham Prasidh Yes.
占普拉西德 是的。
That's when 20 million American women are wearing Cambodian pajamas.
那时有2000万美国女性穿着柬埔寨睡衣。
And we are ranking number one for that in the US.
我们在美国这方面排名第一。
Sleeping soundly and having sweet dreams.
睡得很香，做着甜甜的梦。
We hope they would have us all thinking of Cambodians who are producing these for them.
我们希望他们能让我们所有人想到为他们生产这些产品的柬埔寨人。
They're not, of course.
当然，他们不是。
And that's Cambodia's entire problem in a nutshell.
简而言之，这就是柬埔寨的全部问题。
The clothing business has transformed Cambodia in a way most Americans can't imagine and know absolutely nothing about.
服装业以一种大多数美国人无法想象、也一无所知的方式改变了柬埔寨。
In the 1970s, between one million and two million Cambodians died, about a third of the population, in the country's civil war.
20 世纪 70 年代，柬埔寨内战导致 100 万至 200 万柬埔寨人死亡，约占总人口的三分之一。
The Khmer Rouge eliminated business of every kind, and even money itself.
红色高棉消灭了各种商业，甚至金钱本身。
The middle class was slaughtered.
中产阶级被屠杀。
For two decades after that, the country's economy was flattened, and chronic drought affected hundreds of thousands of families.
此后二十年，国家经济陷入停滞，长期干旱影响了数十万家庭。
But in the mid-'90s, outside investors began opening garment factories, and within five years, clothes were the country's biggest export.
但在 90 年代中期，外部投资者开始开设服装厂，五年内，服装成为该国最大的出口产品。
Two things made this possible.
有两件事使这成为可能。
First, an international quota system implemented decades ago kept any one country from being the sole provider of clothes to the American and European markets.
首先，几十年前实施的国际配额制度使任何一个国家都无法成为美国和欧洲市场服装的唯一供应商。
That meant more than 50 countries got a shot at the industry.
这意味着 50 多个国家/地区有机会进入该行业。
The second thing was that, under the Clinton administration, Cambodia was part of an extraordinary experiment.
第二件事是，在克林顿政府的领导下，柬埔寨是一项非凡实验的一部分。
It got special access to US markets in exchange for good conditions for workers and factory monitoring by the International Labor Organization.
它获得了进入美国市场的特殊准入，以换取良好的工人条件和国际劳工组织对工厂的监督。
The Cambodians didn't just make child labor and sweatshops illegal.
柬埔寨人不仅将童工和血汗工厂定为非法。
They adopted some of the most progressive labor laws in the world.
他们通过了一些世界上最进步的劳动法。
Eight-hour work days, paid overtime, three months' maternity leave, 43 days' vacation, annual health checkups, and free health clinics on site.
八小时工作制、带薪加班、三个月产假、43天假期、每年健康检查、现场免费健康门诊。
The access Cambodia got to US and European markets made the industry explode, growing from nothing to 250 factories in just 10 years.
柬埔寨进入美国和欧洲市场后，该行业迅速发展，在短短 10 年内从无工厂发展到 250 家工厂。
The experiment was a huge success.
这个实验取得了巨大的成功。
But as of January 1, 2005, both trade deals-- the quota system and the agreement with the Americans-- ended, and that's left Cambodia in a strange situation.
但截至 2005 年 1 月 1 日，两项贸易协定——配额制度和与美国的协议——都结束了，这让柬埔寨陷入了奇怪的境地。
It's the only poor country in the world that's agreed to all these strict labor laws.
它是世界上唯一同意所有这些严格劳动法的贫穷国家。
Left to the free market, it'll have to compete with neighbours like Thailand and Vietnam and industry mammoths like China and India.
如果留给自由市场，它将不得不与泰国和越南等邻国以及中国和印度等工业巨头竞争。
And so, the question facing Cambodia is, can a poor country survive if it treats its workers fairly?
那么，柬埔寨面临的问题是，一个贫穷的国家如果公平对待工人，还能生存吗？
The minister sees the dangers as keenly as anyone.
部长和其他人一样敏锐地看到了危险。
Because we were successful only in the garment sector so far, and we have not been able to diversify a lot, it's a kind of time bomb.
因为到目前为止我们只在服装领域取得了成功，而且我们还没有能够实现很大程度的多元化，所以这是一个定时炸弹。
And if you cannot defuse this time bomb, you're going to maybe explode in the future.
如果你不能拆除这个定时炸弹，你将来可能会爆炸。
If the garment sector does not survive in Cambodia, we are going to have a social crisis in Cambodia.
如果柬埔寨的服装业无法生存，柬埔寨将会陷入社会危机。
Girls who came from the countryside to work in factories, if they lose their jobs, they would never return to their village.
从农村来到工厂打工的女孩，一旦失业，就再也回不了村了。
And you know what would be their fate.
你知道他们的命运是什么。
I don't want to elaborate on that.
我不想详细说明这一点。
What he doesn't want to elaborate on is that some of these women might turn to prostitution.
他不想详细说明的是，其中一些女性可能会转向卖淫。
Over a quarter million women work in the garment factories around Phnom Penh.
超过 25 万女性在金边周边的服装厂工作。
They, in turn, support their entire families, often back in whatever village they came from.
反过来，他们又养活整个家庭，通常回到他们来自的村庄。
Minimum monthly wage is $45, and with overtime, most workers make $70 a month.
每月最低工资为 45 美元，加上加班费，大多数工人每月收入为 70 美元。
That's two and three times what a police officer or teacher makes here.
这是警察或老师在这里赚的两到三倍。
Garment workers send their brothers and their children to school, and subsidize farms that barely survive.
服装工人送他们的兄弟和孩子上学，并补贴勉强生存的农场。
The good news is, so far, even with the trade deals expired, they've managed to stay afloat.
好消息是，到目前为止，即使贸易协议到期，他们仍然能够维持下去。
None of the biggest buyers have left, and exports have even grown a little, 7% compared to last year.
最大的买家都没有离开，出口甚至比去年略有增长，增长了 7%。
Though, in previous years, growth was more like 20%.
不过，前几年的增长率大约是 20%。
But since January 1, and the end of all their trade protections, Cambodian factories suddenly are being asked by their customers to lower costs and prices.
但自 1 月 1 日起，所有贸易保护结束后，客户突然要求柬埔寨工厂降低成本和价格。
Some factories have closed.
一些工厂已经关闭。
Thousands of people have lost their jobs.
成千上万的人失去了工作。
Workers are getting less overtime and management is feeling the pinch.
工人们的加班时间越来越少，管理层也感受到了压力。
It's actually very worrying.
其实是非常令人担忧的。
Our cost is actually very high.
我们的成本其实是非常高的。
Voren Van runs a relatively small factory of 800 workers on the edge of Phnom Penh.
Voren Van 在金边边缘经营着一家拥有 800 名工人的相对较小的工厂。
They mostly make Levi's jeans.
他们主要生产李维斯牛仔裤。
To hear Voren tell it, business is bad.
听沃伦说，生意很糟糕。
Making clothes is more expensive in Cambodia than in most countries.
柬埔寨制作衣服的成本比大多数国家都高。
Cambodia doesn't manufacture any of the materials it needs, so to create a pair of jeans, Voren has to import not only the fabric, but the thread, the zippers, the buttons, the rivets, everything.
柬埔寨不生产它所需的任何材料，因此为了制造一条牛仔裤，沃伦不仅必须进口面料，还必须进口线、拉链、纽扣、铆钉等所有东西。
Then there's utilities.
然后是公用事业。
Voren says a recent study found that the cost of electricity is the same in Cambodia as it is in downtown Tokyo.
沃伦说，最近的一项研究发现，柬埔寨的电费与东京市中心的电费相同。
And there's labor compliance, which is hugely expensive.
还有劳工合规性，这是非常昂贵的。
Just to give you an example, the cost of electricity that I'm paying every month is about $6,000.
举个例子，我每个月支付的电费约为 6,000 美元。
Now, if I do not bother about compliance, I will switch off the lights and my workers can sew in a dimmer light.
现在，如果我不担心合规性，我会关掉灯，我的工人可以在较暗的灯光下缝纫。
And I can save maybe 20%.
我大概可以节省 20%。
And that's a lot of money.
那是很多钱。
And you're just talking about electricity.
你只是在谈论电力。
How about drinking water?
喝水怎么样？
If I don't give my workers proper drinking water, I can save $600 every month.
如果我不给我的工人提供适当的饮用水，我每个月可以节省 600 美元。
If I employ, for example, kids under 16, I don't even have to give them anything.
例如，如果我雇用 16 岁以下的孩子，我什至不需要给他们任何东西。
I just have to give them a bowl of rice and they will work for me.
我只要给他们一碗饭，他们就会为我干活。
But, of course, I shouldn't do that.
但是，当然，我不应该这样做。
It's not right.
这是不对的。
To be clear, Voren's factory has a reputation for some of the best working conditions around.
需要明确的是，沃伦的工厂以周围最好的工作条件而闻名。
He believes in fair labor laws, that they're eventually going to transform society and the country by turning peasant farmers into an educated middle class.
他相信公平的劳动法，它们最终将通过将农民转变为受过教育的中产阶级来改变社会和国家。
But doing the right thing, not dimming the lights, means Voren's only scratching by.
但做正确的事，而不是调暗灯光，意味着沃伦只能勉强度日。
And he's not the only one.
而且他不是唯一一个。
The danger is that factories will pick up and move somewhere, like Vietnam.
危险在于工厂将会复苏并转移到越南等地方。
Voren says it's pretty easy.
沃伦说这很容易。
All you have to do is rent a space, ship your machines, and hire some workers.
您所要做的就是租用一个空间，运送您的机器，并雇用一些工人。
You can be running in two months.
两个月后就可以跑步了。
I can say that 70% of the factories here are struggling.
我可以说这里70%的工厂都在苦苦挣扎。
I don't think any of us are making money.
我认为我们没有人赚钱。
I think it's just to maintain the workforce here.
我认为这只是为了维持这里的劳动力。
You're just surviving.
你只是生存而已。
Voren Van Just surviving, yes.
沃伦·范（Voren Van）只是幸存下来，是的。
And not only surviving.
而且不仅仅是生存。
I know a lot of factories are not doing very well.
我知道很多工厂都做得不好。
They may close down any day.
他们随时可能倒闭。
If I can plan three months ahead, with confirmed order, I consider myself very safe.
如果我能提前三个月计划并确认订单，我认为自己非常安全。
The situation is very bad now.
现在的情况很糟糕。
The situation right now is that I cannot even plan for more than two weeks.
现在的情况是我连两周以上的计划都做不到。
So I do not know what to do.
所以我不知道该怎么办。
How do you get orders?
你如何获得订单？
Voren Van Cold calls.
沃伦·范·科尔德 (Voren Van Cold) 打来电话。
You cold-call?
你打冷电话吗？
Voren Van Oh, yes, we cold-call everyone.
Voren Van 哦，是的，我们给每个人打电话。
Oh, yes.
哦是的。
And not only me.
而且不仅仅是我。
Every time I call a bigger factory, they will say something like, Oh, Mr. Van, I'm so sorry.
每次我打电话给更大的工厂时，他们都会说，哦，范先生，我很抱歉。
Today, you are the sixth person that calls me to ask me for orders.
今天，你是第六个打电话向我请教的人。
How does it-- I cannot imagine being under that kind of stress.
这是怎么回事——我无法想象承受那样的压力。
I just think I would have ulcers, and I would be awake all the time.
我只是觉得我会得溃疡，而且我会一直醒着。
Thank goodness I have an understanding wife.
谢天谢地，我有一个善解人意的妻子。
I'm getting thinner, but that's part of the job.
我越来越瘦，但这是工作的一部分。
I think everybody outside, if you see them-- if you see factory managers, I think they're now a lot thinner than they were.
我想外面的每个人，如果你看到他们——如果你看到工厂经理，我认为他们现在比以前瘦了很多。
[LAUGHTER] Rachel Louise Snyder One afternoon, I go with a translator to one of the main manufacturing areas of Phnom Penh, a neighborhood called [UNINTELLIGIBLE], where I've been many times before.
[笑声] Rachel Louise Snyder 一天下午，我和一位翻译一起去了金边的主要制造区之一，一个叫做[无法辨认]的社区，我以前去过那里很多次。
It's the main route out of town, and it's lined with food stalls and other vendors that cater to factory workers.
这是出城的主要路线，两旁都是小吃摊和其他为工厂工人提供服务的摊贩。
The thing that's interesting about this area is that I first came here close to two years ago now, and it was a thriving area.
这个地区有趣的地方是，我第一次来到这里已经是两年前的事了，那是一个繁荣的地区。
There were just thousands and thousands of people out, and constant activity here.
外面只有成千上万的人，这里的活动不断。
It was just so lively and so noisy and everyone's just sitting around now.
真是太热闹了，太吵闹了，每个人都坐在那儿。
It's not even hot season.
这甚至还不是炎热的季节。
Sometimes when I would come down here before, it would be so busy that you could walk faster than the traffic moved.
有时我以前来这里的时候，这里会非常繁忙，你走得比交通还快。
And now it does seem like a highway.
现在它看起来确实像一条高速公路。
We see a woman slicing pork and beef into tiny strips.
我们看到一个女人把猪肉和牛肉切成小条。
I ask her why the pieces are so small.
我问她为什么碎片这么小。
Normally, the garment worker, they don't buy a lot, so she has to cut the small pieces, which weigh only one gram.
通常，服装工人不会买很多，所以她必须剪小片，仅重一克。
One gram?
一克？
They buy one gram?
他们买一克？
Translator Yes.
译者是的。
A lot of people buy one gram of pork.
很多人买一克猪肉。
[SPEAKING KHMER] Translator She said, before people made more money, and now people make less money for some reason.
[说高棉语] 翻译 她说，以前人们赚更多的钱，现在人们因为某种原因赚更少的钱。
She don't know, but they just make less.
她不知道，但他们只是赚得少了。
It's been bad for the last six months, and it keeps going down.
过去六个月情况一直很糟糕，而且还在持续下降。
Here's a shoe salesman.
这是一位鞋推销员。
I haven't seen this before.
我以前没见过这个。
Selling flip-flops.
卖人字拖。
Here's a pair of Barbie flip-flops, palm tree flip-flops.
这是一双芭比娃娃人字拖，棕榈树人字拖。
How's business?
生意怎么样？
Not so much.
没那么多。
Rachel Louise Snyder So are there days where she doesn't even sell one single pair of shoes?
雷切尔·路易丝·斯奈德 (Rachel Louise Snyder) 那么，是否有过她甚至连一双鞋都卖不出去的日子呢？
[SPEAKING KHMER] Translator She said to talk about that, almost every day, I don't sell.
[SPEAKING KHMER] 翻译 她说要讲这个，几乎每天都讲，我不卖。
Almost every day?
几乎每天？
Woman [SPEAKING KHMER]
女人[说高棉语]
She said, "I used to sell a lot before.
她说：“我以前卖过很多东西。
But these days, I don't do good business.
但这些天，我的生意不太好做。
I don't know why.
我不知道为什么。
I wonder why I don't make good business these days.
我想知道为什么我这些天生意不好。
I really don't get it because I used to make about $300, $400 a month by selling these old-- credit it to workers.
我真的不明白，因为我过去每个月靠卖这些旧东西赚大约300、400美元——把它归功于工人。
And they pay when they get paid.
当他们得到报酬时，他们就会付款。
Like yesterday, they-- worker got paid, but I didn't sell any pairs of shoes.
就像昨天一样，他们——工人拿到了工资，但我没有卖出任何双鞋。
And yesterday was their payday.
昨天是他们的发薪日。
Since the trade deals expired, Cambodia's had to hustle for new business, now that it's competing in a new way against so many countries.
自贸易协定到期以来，柬埔寨不得不努力寻找新业务，现在它正在以新的方式与如此多的国家竞争。
This is where Souieng Van comes in, Voren's brother and the owner of the factory Voren manages.
这就是 Souieng Van 的用武之地，他是 Voren 的兄弟，也是 Voren 管理的工厂的老板。
He's also the head of the Garment Manufacturers Association.
他还是服装制造商协会的会长。
One morning, we meet for coffee at a hotel in Phnom Penh, just two days after a smarmy factory owner skipped town and blew off paying nearly 1,000 workers.
一天早上，我们在金边的一家酒店见面喝咖啡，就在两天前，一位狡猾的工厂老板逃离了这座城市，并挥霍了近 1,000 名工人的工资。
Mr. Van was furiously text messaging, arranging to sell the company's assets, mostly sewing machines and chairs, to cover as much as he could of the lost wages.
范先生疯狂地发短信，安排出售公司的资产，主要是缝纫机和椅子，以尽可能弥补工资损失。
I feel I have a duty to do it, because the factory closed is a bad one.
我觉得我有责任这么做，因为工厂关闭是一件坏事。
It is like a thief running away.
就像小偷逃跑一样。
And they don't even take care of the wages.
而且他们连工资都不关心。
But it's in everywhere, in all capitalists countries, even in the States.
但它无处不在，在所有资本主义国家，甚至在美国。
But in America, in other countries, citizens have money to survive for a few weeks, a few months.
但在美国和其他国家，公民有钱维持几周、几个月的生活。
In Cambodia, they cannot survive without their wages for over seven days, 10 days.
在柬埔寨，没有工资他们就无法生存7天、10天以上。
So they are hungry.
所以他们很饿。
They're hungry.
他们饿了。
Mr. Van comes from a powerful family, and has the kind of money where he's imported a stable full of horses from France.
范先生出身于一个有权有势的家庭，他有足够的钱从法国进口一整匹马。
He could be doing anything.
他可以做任何事情。
But he happens to believe in what Cambodia's trying to do, and he considers it his duty to help save the garment industry.
但他恰好相信柬埔寨正在努力做的事情，他认为帮助拯救服装业是他的责任。
To do that, his days are crammed with meetings, often with the Factory Association's secretary general, Ken Loo, at his side.
为了做到这一点，他每天都忙着开会，工厂协会秘书长卢肯 (Ken Loo) 经常陪在他身边。
They're sitting at a table with two dozen Singaporean men and women in Western suits.
他们坐在一张桌子旁，周围有两打身着西服的新加坡男女。
Tropical fruit and bottles of water sit on three big trays in the middle of the table.
桌子中间的三个大托盘上放着热带水果和瓶装水。
The Singaporeans are all members of a manufacturing association, and they're on a fact-finding mission, looking for a new country where they can open up their businesses.
新加坡人都是制造业协会的成员，他们正在执行一项实况调查任务，寻找一个可以开展业务的新国家。
They've also been to Vietnam on this trip, and Mr. Van and Ken want to do everything they can to persuade them Cambodia's the better choice.
这次旅行他们还去了越南，范先生和肯想尽一切努力说服他们柬埔寨是更好的选择。
They have two days.
他们有两天时间。
Ken does most of the talking, and he starts with Cambodia's trump card, really the only thing they have to sell.
肯说了大部分话，他从柬埔寨的王牌开始，这实际上是他们唯一要出售的东西。
Cambodia has a good reputation with many international buyers, especially the big buyers that are concerned about their corporate image, concerned about corporate social responsibilities.
柬埔寨在许多国际买家中享有良好的声誉，尤其是关注企业形象、关注企业社会责任的大买家。
And GAP has been our largest single buyer.
GAP 一直是我们最大的单一买家。
The GAP alone has 40 factories in the country, and constitutes 25% of Cambodia's entire clothing industry.
仅GAP一家就在全国拥有40家工厂，占柬埔寨整个服装行业的25%。
Lots of other big names are here, too.
许多其他大牌也都在这里。
It's weird to be sitting in a tiled conference room in Phnom Penh while vendors push wooden noodle carts outside, and hearing Asian executives recite every brand name you'd see in your local mall.
坐在金边一间铺着瓷砖的会议室里，小贩们把木制面条车推到外面，听到亚洲高管背诵你在当地购物中心看到的每一个品牌名称，这感觉很奇怪。
Levi's, H&M, Nike, Adidas, Reebok, all have indicated their intention to increase sourcing from Cambodia.
Levi's、H&M、耐克、阿迪达斯、锐步等都表示有意增加从柬埔寨的采购。
Of course, Cambodia is not a panacea for production.
当然，柬埔寨并不是生产的灵丹妙药。
We have our own internal problems, and these are the problems faced by all developing economies in the world, namely corruption, bureaucracy.
我们有自己的内部问题，这是世界上所有发展中经济体面临的问题，即腐败、官僚主义。
The Cambodians are amazingly frank about the problems of doing business in their country.
柬埔寨人对在自己国家做生意的问题坦诚得令人惊讶。
The corruption is notorious, and pretty much everyone in the region, including the Singaporeans, knows it.
腐败是臭名昭著的，几乎该地区的每个人，包括新加坡人，都知道这一点。
And there's not much point pretending otherwise.
假装不这样也没有什么意义。
Then there are the unions.
然后是工会。
Just to give you an idea, we have, at present, 223 garment factories.
仅供参考，目前我们有 223 家服装厂。
And, at the last count, 785 unions.
根据最新统计，有 785 个工会。
At last count, and growing, and growing.
最后数了一下，不断增长，不断增长。
That's right.
没错。
An average of three unions per factory.
每个工厂平均有三个工会。
Sometimes one group of workers in a factory will go on strike while the others work away at their posts.
有时，工厂里的一组工人会罢工，而其他工人则在岗位上加班加点。
It makes negotiations totally unwieldy.
这使得谈判变得完全难以操作。
Corrupt unions have extorted money from factory owners and other workers, and demanded ridiculous benefits.
腐败的工会向工厂主和其他工人勒索钱财，并索要荒谬的福利。
Owners already feel a number of the rules, based on French labor laws, are unfair.
业主们已经感到，基于法国劳动法的一些规定是不公平的。
In the meeting with the Singaporeans, for example, a lot of time was taken up with questions about breastfeeding breaks, which are required for new mothers.
例如，在与新加坡人的会面中，很多时间都花在了有关新妈妈所需要的母乳喂养时间的问题上。
How do they happen?
它们是如何发生的？
the Singaporeans wondered.
新加坡人想知道。
Do the babies come to the factories?
宝宝们来工厂吗？
In Cambodia, working women leave their kids with family, so the breastfeeding thing is a logistical nightmare.
在柬埔寨，职业女性将孩子留给家人照顾，因此母乳喂养的事情是一场后勤噩梦。
There are a bunch of laws like this, headaches that are the cost of fair labor.
像这样的法律有一堆，头疼的就是公平劳动的成本。
But Ken tells them these costs will all be worth it, and then he tells them Cambodia's new strategy to keep the country competitive.
但肯告诉他们这些成本都是值得的，然后他告诉他们柬埔寨保持国家竞争力的新战略。
It's a bill before Congress-- the US Congress-- called the Trade Act of 2005.
这是国会（即美国国会）正在审议的一项法案，称为《2005 年贸易法案》。
If it passes, Cambodia and a bunch of other poor countries would get tariff-free access to the US market.
如果该法案通过，柬埔寨和其他一些贫穷国家将获得免关税进入美国市场的机会。
Right now, they're paying an average of 17%.
目前，他们平均支付 17%。
Ken explains that Cambodia is asking for the tax break along with 13 other so-called least developed countries, or LDCs.
Ken 解释说，柬埔寨正在与其他 13 个所谓的最不发达国家 (LDC) 一起要求减税。
They included Sri Lanka, hoping the tsunami there would earn the bill some sympathy votes.
其中包括斯里兰卡，希望那里的海啸能为该法案赢得一些同情票。
Ken and Mr. Van will be flying out to Washington to lobby for the bill in a week, and Ken lays out the pitch they're using with the American lawmakers.
肯和范先生将在一周内飞往华盛顿游说该法案，肯向美国立法者阐述了他们正在使用的方案。
The angle is very logical.
这个角度很有逻辑。
There are 50 LDCs in the world, five-zero.
世界上有 50 个最不发达国家，其中 5 个是零。
And the US has provided preferential access for 35 out of the 50 LDCs, basically in the sub-Saharan African region and the Caribbean and the South American.
美国为50个最不发达国家中的35个提供了优惠准入，主要分布在撒哈拉以南非洲地区、加勒比地区和南美洲。
But 15 LDCs in the Asia-Pacific region have been left out.
但亚太地区 15 个最不发达国家被排除在外。
We are approaching the Americans, we are approaching the politicians, to say, Look, you have left us out.
我们正在接近美国人，我们正在接近政客，他们说，看，你们把我们排除在外了。
We are not asking for anything extra.
我们不要求任何额外的东西。
We just want to be treated fairly as an LDC.
我们只是希望作为最不发达国家受到公平对待。
You have given this to other LDCs.
你们已将这一点给予了其他最不发达国家。
We feel it is fair you give the same treatment to us.
我们觉得你们给予我们同样的待遇是公平的。
And we have gotten very good reactions.
我们得到了很好的反应。
Some of the politicians were very surprised.
一些政界人士感到非常惊讶。
Oh, really?
哦，真的吗？
14 LDCs in Asia-Pacific were left out?
亚太地区14个最不发达国家被排除在外？
Which includes a couple of countries that have a lot of interest in the House, namely Afghanistan.
其中包括几个对众议院有很大兴趣的国家，即阿富汗。
We have got very strong bipartisan sponsors of the bill, meaning we have got Republican and Democrat sponsors.
该法案有非常强大的两党支持者，这意味着我们有共和党和民主党支持者。
For example, we just had-- what's-- Obama?
例如，我们刚刚有——什么是——奥巴马？
Barack Obama.
巴拉克·奥巴马。
Ken Loo We just had Barack Obama sign on as a co-sponsor for our bill.
Ken Loo 我们刚刚让巴拉克·奥巴马 (Barack Obama) 签署成为我们法案的共同提案国。
Barack Obama is seen as the leader of the young generation of politicians in the US.
巴拉克·奥巴马被视为美国年轻一代政治家的领袖。
We are also in the process of convincing Senator Clinton, because having her on board would be very influential, because she represents a lot of the female voice.
我们也在说服克林顿参议员，因为让她加入将会非常有影响力，因为她代表了很多女性的声音。
This is what it's like to be the little guy up against the giant.
这就是小人物对抗巨人的感觉。
You have to know everything about the giant, and the giant doesn't even know you're there.
你必须了解巨人的一切，而巨人甚至不知道你在那里。
The Singaporeans ask for details about the bill, and the likelihood it will pass by the end of the year.
新加坡人要求了解该法案的详细信息，以及该法案在今年年底通过的可能性。
They say the way Congress votes will sway their decision.
他们表示国会投票的方式将影响他们的决定。
The meeting adjourns.
会议休会。
What Mr. Van and Ken didn't tell the Singaporeans is that if the Trade Act doesn't pass, and soon, by the end of 2005 or the first few months of 2006, it might be too late anyway.
范先生和肯没有告诉新加坡人的是，如果《贸易法》没有在 2005 年底或 2006 年初几个月通过，那么无论如何都可能太晚了。
At Mr. Van's factory, Voren says all it would take is two months without orders, and his factory and others would close.
沃伦说，在范先生的工厂，只要两个月没有订单，他的工厂和其他工厂就会关闭。
In July, Commerce Minister Cham Prasidh, Mr. Van, and Ken flew to Washington, DC to lobby for the Trade Act of 2005.
7 月，商务部长占普拉西 (Cham Prasidh)、范先生和肯 (Ken) 飞往华盛顿特区游说 2005 年贸易法案。
The trip had been planned months in advance, and they'd banked on the fact that CAFTA, the Central American Free Trade Agreement, would be resolved by then.
这次旅行是提前几个月计划好的，他们寄希望于届时 CAFTA（中美洲自由贸易协定）能够得到解决。
It wasn't.
事实并非如此。
For two days, they lobbied any member of Congress who would see them, which turned out to be eight people.
两天来，他们游说任何愿意会见他们的国会议员，结果是八人。
Mostly, when they heard the Cambodian story, they were sympathetic, and three of them signed onto the bill.
大多数情况下，当他们听到柬埔寨的故事时，他们都表示同情，其中三人签署了该法案。
But Ken says the congressmen were preoccupied with other issues.
但肯说，国会议员们正忙于其他问题。
They were all obsessed with CAFTA at the moment.
他们当时都对 CAFTA 着迷。
And when we asked them whether they were ready to support the bill, they said, Not at this moment.
当我们问他们是否准备好支持该法案时，他们说，现在还不行。
This bill is not going to move unless we defeat CAFTA or unless we get CAFTA approved.
除非我们击败 CAFTA 或获得 CAFTA 批准，否则该法案不会动议。
So that was a bit disheartening.
所以这有点令人沮丧。
They'd also hoped to meet with President Bush, or at least someone from his administration.
他们还希望会见布什总统，或者至少是他的政府中的某个人。
But the president was also preoccupied with CAFTA, and with his new Supreme Court nominee, John Roberts.
但总统也全神贯注于 CAFTA 和他的新最高法院提名人约翰·罗伯茨 (John Roberts)。
Their previous trips had gone about the same.
他们之前的旅行大致相同。
Their bill only has 25 sponsors, short of the 70 they ideally want, though this is way further than anybody thought they'd get.
他们的法案只有 25 个赞助商，低于他们理想中的 70 个，尽管这比任何人想象的都要多。
Every single person we speak to tells us, Impossible.
与我们交谈的每个人都告诉我们，不可能。
No chance in hell.
地狱里没有机会。
When we speak to the US administration, when we speak to the US Embassy, they say, quote, "No chance in hell.
当我们与美国政府交谈时，当我们与美国大使馆交谈时，他们引用说：“根本没有机会。
You're not going to get it." But still, we commit our resources, we commit our time for this cause.
你不会得到它。”但是，我们仍然为此投入我们的资源、我们的时间。
And it's really a lot of money.
而且确实是很多钱。
In Cambodia, the garment industry is front-page news every single day.
在柬埔寨，服装业每天都是头条新闻。
Factories open or close.
工厂打开或关闭。
New brands come in or leave.
新品牌进来或离开。
Workers strike or lose their jobs.
工人罢工或失业。
And while this bill means everything to the Cambodians, the sad fact is that Americans don't even know any of this is happening.
虽然这项法案对柬埔寨人来说意味着一切，但可悲的事实是美国人甚至不知道这一切正在发生。
Here's Commerce Minister Cham Prasidh.
这是商务部长占普拉西 (Cham Prasidh) 的讲话。
Actually, for me, when I go, I have the feeling that I'm coming like a beggar.
其实对我来说，当我走的时候，我有一种感觉，我就像一个乞丐一样来了。
But I need to go, despite I feel like a beggar, because right behind me, I have 2 million and a half people who are counting on this Trade Act to survive.
但我需要离开，尽管我感觉自己像个乞丐，因为在我身后，有 250 万人民依靠这项贸易法案生存。
You'd think the one natural ally Cambodia would have for this bill would be the labor unions, who are always trying to get the US to include workers' rights overseas in its trade bills.
你可能会认为柬埔寨在这项法案中的一个天然盟友就是工会，他们一直试图让美国将海外工人的权利纳入其贸易法案。
But, in fact, Cambodia's most vocal opponent of the Trade Act is a labor union, and the most dramatic moment of their trip to Washington came when the minister was speaking at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.
但事实上，柬埔寨最强烈反对《贸易法》的是工会，他们华盛顿之行最戏剧性的时刻是部长在卡内基国际和平基金会发表演讲时。
And Mark Levinson, the chief economist for UNITE, the textile union, stood to argue with him.
纺织联盟UNITE的首席经济学家马克·莱文森(Mark Levinson)站出来与他争论。
Levinson said that since the US trade deal with Cambodia ended, workers' conditions have gotten progressively worse.
莱文森表示，自美国与柬埔寨的贸易协定结束以来，工人的条件逐渐恶化。
What we hear from workers in Cambodia is that since that link ended, there's backsliding in Cambodia.
我们从柬埔寨工人那里听到的是，自从这种联系结束以来，柬埔寨出现了倒退。
The situation is deteriorating in Cambodia, because the experiment, which was a success, is now over.
柬埔寨的情况正在恶化，因为曾经成功的实验现在已经结束。
Here's where he's coming from.
他就是从这里来的。
Even though conditions have improved for Cambodian workers when they're on the job on the factory floor, when workers hold demonstrations, even small ones of a dozen people or so, police come and run them off.
尽管柬埔寨工人在工厂工作时的条件有所改善，但当工人举行示威活动时，即使是十几人左右的小规模示威，警察也会来把他们赶走。
There have been threats, intimidation, and beatings of union organizers by thugs trying to repress dissent.
试图镇压异见的暴徒对工会组织者进行了威胁、恐吓和殴打。
Two years ago, a wildly popular union leader was gunned down on a Sunday morning while he was reading the newspaper.
两年前，一位广受欢迎的工会领袖在周日早上看报纸时被枪杀。
Most everyone believes it was a political killing.
大多数人都认为这是一场政治杀戮。
15,000 people attended his funeral.
15,000人参加了他的葬礼。
But when Mark Levinson brings this up, it utterly galls the minister.
但当马克·莱文森提出这个问题时，部长彻底恼火了。
From his point of view, established democracies like America don't have realistic expectations of brand-new democracies like Cambodia.
在他看来，像美国这样的老牌民主国家对像柬埔寨这样的新兴民主国家没有现实的期望。
A new country isn't going to solve all the corruption and civil rights abuses all at once.
一个新国家不可能一次性解决所有腐败和侵犯公民权利的问题。
And without help like this trade bill, it'll just make the problems harder to solve, not easier.
如果没有像这项贸易法案这样的帮助，问题只会变得更难解决，而不是更容易。
You have to understand the context in which we are living.
你必须了解我们生活的环境。
You know the history of Cambodia, but you have not known everything.
您了解柬埔寨的历史，但您并不了解一切。
We have gone through six successive political regimes in Cambodia within 30 years.
30年来，柬埔寨连续经历了六届政权。
People of my age, we saluted six different national flags of Cambodia.
像我这个年纪的人，我们向柬埔寨六种不同的国旗敬礼。
How many have you saluted so far?
到目前为止，你向多少人致敬过？
Only one.
只有一个。
And through this type of conflict, genocide, and everything, we come out and try to find peace first.
通过这种类型的冲突、种族灭绝和一切，我们首先站出来尝试寻求和平。
We are all new.
我们都是新人。
Six years ago, there is almost no unions in Cambodia.
六年前，柬埔寨几乎没有工会。
There are not unions in factories because there are no factories in Cambodia.
工厂里没有工会，因为柬埔寨没有工厂。
We are all young.
我们都很年轻。
The workers are young, the unions are young, the factories [?
工人年轻，工会年轻，工厂[？
are building, ?] the factory managers are new.
正在建设，？]工厂经理是新来的。
And we have a system that is also new.
我们有一个也是新的系统。
We are open to democratization, but the question is that we need a kind of transition period where people mature in learning the laws, in abiding to the laws.
我们对民主化持开放态度，但问题是我们需要一个过渡时期，让人们在学习法律、遵守法律方面成熟起来。
Before they leave DC, Mr. Van and Ken check out a few chain stores in Georgetown.
在离开华盛顿特区之前，范先生和肯参观了乔治城的几家连锁店。
They never miss a chance to do this when they come to the States, to see the actual "Made in Cambodia" clothes that trendy Americans buy.
当他们来到美国时，他们绝不会错过这样做的机会，看看时髦的美国人购买的真正的“柬埔寨制造”服装。
Their first store is Adidas.
他们的第一家商店是阿迪达斯。
It doesn't go that well.
进展不太顺利。
No, made in Vietnam.
不，越南制造。
Thailand.
泰国。
Indonesia.
印度尼西亚。
Turkey.
土耳其。
The same scenario is repeated at GAP Kids and at Abercrombie & Fitch.
同样的情况也在 GAP Kids 和 Abercrombie & Fitch 上演。
At The GAP, things seem more promising.
在 GAP，事情似乎更有希望。
Ken spots some familiar shirts on the table, striped ladies' tops he swears he's seen in Cambodia.
肯在桌子上发现了一些熟悉的衬衫，他发誓他在柬埔寨见过的条纹女士上衣。
But when they check the labels, they see Sri Lanka.
但当他们检查标签时，他们看到的是斯里兰卡。
Not only aren't they finding Cambodian products, they're finding stuff they could be making in Cambodia, stuff they want to be making.
他们不仅没有找到柬埔寨产品，反而找到了他们可以在柬埔寨制造的东西，他们想要制造的东西。
Mr. Van seems almost mystified by his country's lack of representation.
范先生似乎对他的国家缺乏代表感到困惑。
He picks up a tiny pair of khaki pants at Baby GAP.
他在 Baby GAP 买了一条小卡其色裤子。
We can do it better in Cambodia.
我们在柬埔寨可以做得更好。
Look at this stitch.
看看这针。
Look, it's lousy.
你看，很糟糕。
They're not finishing.
他们还没有完成。
We can do better.
我们可以做得更好。
This stitch would be rejected by quality control.
该针迹将被质量控制拒绝。
We do better.
我们做得更好。
Something Baby GAP has to do in Cambodia.
Baby GAP 必须在柬埔寨做一些事情。
Something wrong.
有问题。
Why is Baby GAP not down in Cambodia?
为什么Baby GAP在柬埔寨没有下降？
I don't know.
我不知道。
Good question.
好问题。
Souieng Van Why can't we make that?
Souieng Van 为什么我们做不到呢？
Finally they have some success.
最后他们取得了一些成功。
They spot a blue soccer jersey costing $50.
他们发现一件蓝色的足球球衣价值 50 美元。
Cambodia will get roughly $10, or a fifth of the selling price.
柬埔寨将获得大约 10 美元，即售价的五分之一。
The few other Cambodian-made garments they see are simple t-shirts or sweat tops, nothing more complex, like ornamental stitching that commands higher prices, the kinds of things that China, Vietnam, and Thailand do.
他们看到的其他几件柬埔寨制造的服装都是简单的 T 恤或运动上衣，没有什么更复杂的，比如价格更高的装饰性缝线，就像中国、越南和泰国做的那样。
All in all, pretty discouraging for them.
总而言之，这对他们来说非常令人沮丧。
Cambodia is still a small, struggling player in the industry.
柬埔寨仍然是该行业的一个小而苦苦挣扎的参与者。
And the way they see it, the success or failure of their experiment at fair labor practices is now in the hands of the US Congress.
在他们看来，公平劳工实践实验的成功或失败现在掌握在美国国会手中。
But the legislation that could help Cambodia, the Trade Act of 2005, doesn't stand any chance at all to make it to a vote in 2005.
但2005年的《贸易法》可能对柬埔寨有帮助，但它根本没有机会在2005年进行投票。
Mr. Van and Ken and the minister aren't giving up.
范先生、肯以及部长并没有放弃。
They had scheduled another lobbying trip for October, but it was canceled at the last minute because of Hurricanes Katrina and Rita.
他们原本计划在十月份再次进行游说活动，但由于卡特里娜和丽塔飓风，在最后一刻被取消。
They haven't rescheduled yet.
他们还没有重新安排。
They're waiting for a time when US politicians can give them more attention.
他们正在等待美国政客给予他们更多关注的时机。
It's hard to imagine when that time will be.
很难想象那一天会是什么时候。
Rachael Louise Snyder lives in Cambodia.
瑞秋·路易丝·斯奈德住在柬埔寨。
This story also appears in her just-published book, Fugitive Denim , about the people who make blue jeans in the global economy.
这个故事也出现在她刚刚出版的《逃亡牛仔》一书中，该书讲述了在全球经济中制造蓝色牛仔裤的人们。
Lisa Pollak did reporting and recording for this story in Washington, DC.
丽莎·波拉克在华盛顿特区对这个故事进行了报道和录音。
It's been two years since we first broadcast that story, and the Trade Act of 2005, which Cambodians thought would save the clothing industry in their country, never got to the Senate floor.
距离我们第一次报道这个故事已经两年了，而柬埔寨人认为可以拯救本国服装业的 2005 年贸易法案却从未进入参议院。
It was reintroduced this year, but is now currently sitting in committee.
它于今年被重新引入，但目前正在委员会中审议。
While the future of this particular act remains uncertain, the US has put limits on the amount of clothing that could be imported from China.
尽管这一特定法案的未来仍不确定，但美国已对从中国进口的服装数量进行了限制。
Those limits on China will continue until 2008.
对中国的这些限制将持续到2008年。
Ken Loo says that Cambodia is likely to lose a fourth of their garment revenues if those limits are lifted.
Ken Loo 表示，如果取消这些限制，柬埔寨可能会损失四分之一的服装收入。
For now, though, the Cambodians have actually done pretty well.
但就目前而言，柬埔寨人实际上做得相当不错。
Despite their fears, exports were up nearly 20% between 2005 and 2006, and they've remained up ever since, mostly because of companies like The GAP and Levi's, who want to buy from Cambodia because of their fair labor practices.
尽管他们担心，2005 年至 2006 年间，出口仍增长了近 20%，并且此后一直保持增长，这主要是因为 GAP 和 Levi's 等公司因为柬埔寨的公平劳工政策而希望从柬埔寨购买产品。
Cambodia continues to send their lobbying delegation to Washington, DC, hoping to get a version of the Trade Act passed, so they don't get creamed when Chinese quotas end.
柬埔寨继续向华盛顿派遣游说代表团，希望能够通过贸易法的一个版本，这样他们就不会在中国配额结束时受到打击。
[MUSIC - "SUCH A LITTLE THING MAKES SUCH A BIG DIFFERENCE" BY MORRISSEY]
[音乐 - MORRISSEY 的“如此小事带来如此大的不同”]
Act Three, Adventures at Poo Corner.
第三幕，便便角历险记。
Well, now we have this David and Goliath story, where the Goliaths are giant American retailers and the Davids are everyday people, a very particular kind of everyday people.
好吧，现在我们有这个大卫和歌利亚的故事，歌利亚是美国零售商巨头，而大卫则是普通人，一种非常特殊的普通人。
This is a national phenomenon that David Sedaris noticed when he was out on the road.
大卫·塞达里斯 (David Sedaris) 在外出旅行时注意到了这一全国性现象。
A book tour allows one to travel the country and see almost none of it.
一次售书之旅可以让一个人走遍整个国家，却几乎看不到任何地方。
The airport, the hotel, the store that's hosting you, that's usually the extent of it.
接待你的机场、酒店、商店，通常就是这些。
But you do get to meet people and enjoy the sorts of exchanges you probably couldn't otherwise.
但你确实可以结识新朋友，并享受原本可能无法进行的各种交流。
Take this woman I met outside of Detroit, I think it was.
以我在底特律郊外遇到的这个女人为例，我想就是这样。
We got to talking, and while signing her book, I learned that she worked at Target.
我们开始交谈，在给她的书签名时，我得知她在塔吉特公司工作。
"Do a lot of people defecate in your store?" I asked.
“你们店里拉屎的人多吗？”我问。
And she placed her hand over mine, saying, "How did you know?"
她把手放在我的手上，说道：“你怎么知道？”
"Well," I told her, "It's like this."
“嗯，”我告诉她，“事情是这样的。”
In my boyfriend Hugh's last year of high school, his family moved back to the United States and he got a job at a certain clothing store.
我男朋友休高中最后一年，他的家人搬回美国，他在一家服装店找到了一份工作。
OK, it was The GAP.
好吧，就是 The GAP。
Hugh got a job at The GAP.
休在 GAP 找到了一份工作。
And on more than one occasion, a customer entered the dressing room and defecated on the floor.
不止一次，一名顾客进入更衣室并在地板上排便。
The carpeted floor, to be exact.
确切地说，是铺着地毯的地板。
He mentioned this about six months ago, and I was like, "We've been together for how long?
他大约六个月前提到过这一点，我当时想，“我们在一起多久了？
And you're only telling me this now?" Because this kind of story is right up my alley.
而且你现在才告诉我这些？”因为这种故事正合我的胃口。
What kind of a person would defecate in The GAP?
什么样的人会在 The GAP 里拉屎？
It could be seen as a political statement, or an attempt to even some sort of a score, but that's probably giving credit where it's not due.
它可以被视为一种政治声明，或者甚至是某种得分的尝试，但这可能会给予不应有的认可。
There are bound to be exceptions, but from what I've gathered, the store itself is unimportant.
肯定会有例外，但从我收集的情况来看，商店本身并不重要。
In this woman's Target, people will crouch down in the middle of those circular clothing racks, do it right there with no door to hide them.
在这个女人的目标中，人们会蹲在那些圆形衣架的中间，就在那里做，没有门可以隐藏他们。
In Pier 1, they'll just lean against the wall and lower their pants.
在 1 号码头，他们只需靠在墙上并脱下裤子即可。
The place is an outhouse, from what I've heard.
据我所知，这个地方是一个外屋。
So are Sears and Penny's.
西尔斯和佩妮也是如此。
And this sort of thing has been going on for ages.
而且这样的事情已经持续了很多年了。
As an author on book tour, I believe it's my duty to spread pertinent information from one part of the country to another.
作为一名巡回售书的作者，我相信将相关信息从国家的一个地方传播到另一个地方是我的责任。
Night after night, I addressed the subject of chain store defecation, and 97% of the audience would shake their heads, no. "You're putting me on," they'd say.
一夜又一夜，我谈到连锁店排便的话题，97%的观众都会摇头，“不”。 “你在欺骗我，”他们会说。
"I don't believe it." The other 3% would nod, yes.
“我不相信。”另外 3% 的人会点头，是的。
And these were the ones who worked in retail.
这些人从事零售业。
One man that I spoke to stocks shelves at Kroger, and swore that it happens all the time.
我采访过一位在克罗格上货的男士，他发誓这种情况经常发生。
"In my case, it's mainly kids," he said, which is something I heard from quite a few people.
“就我而言，主要是孩子，”他说，这是我从不少人那里听到的。
Some poor four-year-old will ask to go to the bathroom, and the mother will point toward a dark corner of the shoe department or to a pyramid of canned pineapple.
一些可怜的四岁孩子会要求去洗手间，而母亲会指着鞋柜的一个黑暗角落或指着金字塔形的菠萝罐头。
I guess they figure that, because it's a child, it doesn't really count.
我猜他们认为，因为这是一个孩子，所以这并不重要。
But I mean, come on, of course it counts.
但我的意思是，来吧，这当然很重要。
In Chicago, I met a librarian who decorated her children's department with an elaborate cardboard castle, something she'd crafted by hand and painted to look like stone.
在芝加哥，我遇到了一位图书管理员，她用精心制作的纸板城堡装饰了她的儿童部门，这是她手工制作的，并涂成看起来像石头的样子。
The castle went up, and come the second day, what did she find lying just inside the drawbridge?
城堡升了，第二天来的时候，她在吊桥里面发现了什么？
A turd, that's what.
一坨屎，就是这样。
Though, in this case, it was left by a teenager, who confessed after committing a similar crime in the elevator.
不过，在这起案件中，它是由一名青少年留下的，他在电梯里犯下类似的罪行后供认不讳。
It's sort of a different category, but in Las Vegas, I spoke to a guy who worked for casino security that told me that people are so reluctant to leave a favorite slot machine that they'll often defecate in their pants.
这是一个不同的类别，但在拉斯维加斯，我采访了一位在赌场保安工作的人，他告诉我，人们非常不愿意离开最喜欢的老虎机，以至于他们经常会在裤子里大便。
He orders them to leave, but instead of skulking out in shame, they'll put up a stink, or most of them will, saying they'll go back to their rooms when they're damn well ready.
他命令他们离开，但他们不会羞愧地躲起来，而是会发出臭味，或者他们中的大多数人都会，说当他们准备好时，他们会回到自己的房间。
The nerve.
神经。
I said to Hugh, "You'd expect that kind of behavior at the craps table.
我对休说：“你会预料到骰子桌上会出现这种行为。
But slot machines?"
但是老虎机呢？”
As my tour advanced, the stories got meaner and more senseless.
随着我的旅行的进展，故事变得更加刻薄和毫无意义。
I learned of a woman who'd entered the restroom of a bookstore and defecated into the center of the toilet paper roll, which is not one of those things you'd get right the first time.
我听说有一位女士走进一家书店的洗手间，大便在卫生纸卷的中央，这不是你第一次就能做对的事情。
It would require a certain amount of practice, but practice where?
这需要一定的练习，但是练习在哪里呢？
When she had finished, the woman placed the roll back on its holder, which is inconsiderate, but not as inconsiderate as a college student who has taken to defecating into his dormitory's washing machines, the customer who defecates into the urinal of the delicatessen I heard about, or into the standing ashtrays of a once-grand hotel.
当她吃完后，女人把卷放回支架上，这是不体贴的，但并不像一个大学生把大便拉进宿舍的洗衣机、顾客把大便拉进我听说的熟食店的小便池，或者拉进曾经大酒店的立式烟灰缸那么不体贴。
I'm guessing that most of these cases have to do with leaving your mark on the world, an impulse we all share on one level or another.
我猜大多数这些案例都与在世界上留下自己的印记有关，这是我们在某种程度上都有的共同冲动。
Some shoot high, creating lasting works of art, and others-- well, who am I to judge?
有些人志存高远，创造出持久的艺术作品，而另一些人——好吧，我该评判谁呢？
As a form of self-expression, defecating into a washing machine falls somewhere between scratching your initials into a bus window and setting fire to a trash can.
作为一种自我表达的方式，在洗衣机里排便介于在公共汽车车窗上刮擦你名字的首字母和放火焚烧垃圾桶之间。
Whatever notoriety there is to be gained is destined to be private, and hopefully short-lived.
无论获得什么名声，都注定是私人的，而且希望是短暂的。
But that's what you get when you settle for number two.
但这就是当你满足于第二名时你会得到的。
David Sedaris is the author, most recently, of the book Dress Your Family in Corduroy and Denim , and editor of the book, Children Playing Before a Statue of Hercules.
大卫·塞达里斯 (David Sedaris) 是《用灯芯绒和牛仔布为你的家人着装》一书的作者，也是《在赫拉克勒斯雕像前玩耍的孩子们》一书的编辑。
Our program was produced today by Diane Cook and myself, with Alex Blumberg, Jane Feltes, Sarah Koenig, Amy O'Leary, and Lisa Pollak.
今天我们的节目由黛安·库克和我本人以及亚历克斯·布伦伯格、简·菲尔特斯、莎拉·科尼格、艾米·奥利里和丽莎·波拉克共同制作。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Adrianne Mathiowetz runs our website.
阿德琳娜·马修韦茨 (Adrianne Mathiowetz) 负责运营我们的网站。
Production help from Sam Hallgren, Chris Ladd, Seth Lind, and Bruce Wallace.
萨姆·霍尔格伦、克里斯·拉德、塞斯·林德和布鲁斯·华莱士为制作提供了帮助。
Music help from Jessica Hopper.
杰西卡·霍珀的音乐帮助。
Our website, where you can get our weekly podcasts free, or listen to our old shows for free, www.thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站 www.thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中免费获取我们每周的播客，或免费收听我们的旧节目。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight for our show by Mr. Torey Malatia, who feels this way about working with us.
[资金来源] Torey Malatia 先生对我们的节目进行 WBEZ 管理监督，他对与我们合作也有这样的感觉。
I could say that I get a sense of emotional fulfillment, but not really.
我可以说我得到了一种情感上的满足感，但事实并非如此。
I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life.
我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。