30: Obsession - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #30 | July 26, 1996 30: Obsession Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 30 集 | 1996 年 7 月 26 日 30：痴迷注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Act One: Act One Ira Glass So Paul, let's begin this week's show this way.
第一幕： 第一幕 Ira Glass 那么保罗，让我们这样开始本周的节目吧。
I want you to explain to me everything you had to go through in order to see the movie Independence Day .
我希望你向我解释一下为了观看电影《独立日》你必须经历的一切。
I had to get something to eat.
我得去找点东西吃。
I had to get not only a Coke, but also a juice from somewhere outside of the movie theater and not open it up.
我不仅要从电影院外的某个地方买可乐，还要买果汁，而且不能打开。
I didn't want to have it open.
我不想把它打开。
I wanted to have it sealed and have a straw with a paper straw cover around it.
我想把它密封起来，并有一根吸管，周围有纸吸管盖。
Had to sit on the aisle.
只好坐在过道上。
Had to leave the theater during the previews, and then come back in just as the movie was about to start.
必须在预览期间离开剧院，然后在电影即将开始时返回。
Had to wash my hands a couple of times, of course, just in case I had to operate or anything.
当然，我必须洗手几次，以防万一我必须做手术或其他什么事情。
I've sort of known that I had certain little quirks sometimes when I was watching a movie or really doing anything.
我知道当我看电影或真正做任何事情时，有时我会有一些小怪癖。
But for some reason, I just realized it was going a little too far, that these rituals that I'd developed were just a little bit out of control.
但出于某种原因，我意识到这有点太过分了，我制定的这些仪式有点失控。
Well, from WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life .
嗯，来自 WBEZ 芝加哥，这是《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, we choose a topic, bring you a variety of different kinds of stories, documentaries, radio monologues, short stories, found tape, anything we can think of.
我们的节目每周都会选择一个主题，为您带来各种不同类型的故事、纪录片、广播独白、短篇故事、找到的磁带，任何我们能想到的东西。
Today's program, what happens when a little idea becomes a compulsion?
今天的节目，当一个小小的想法变成了一种强迫，会发生什么？
What happens when it starts to control you?
当它开始控制你时会发生什么？
Our program today in four acts, four different stories.
我们今天的节目有四幕，四个不同的故事。
And joining me for this hour is Paul Tough, who actually holds a job.
和我一起度过这个小时的是保罗·托夫（Paul Tough），他实际上有工作。
Doesn't just go to theaters freaking out his fellow patrons.
不只是去剧院吓坏他的其他顾客。
Paul Tough, an editor at Harper's magazine in New York and a contributing editor to our show as well.
Paul Tough，纽约《哈泼斯》杂志的编辑，也是我们节目的特约编辑。
Paul has been thinking and talking to a lot of people about this subject of small obsessions and compulsions.
保罗一直在思考并与很多人谈论这个小强迫症的话题。
And can I just say that your story in the movie theatre-- I mean, those are pretty small things.
我可以说你在电影院里的故事吗——我的意思是，这些都是很小的事情。
I mean, all those things seem pretty innocent.
我的意思是，所有这些事情看起来都很无辜。
They are, they are.
他们是，他们是。
I mean, none of them are really out of control.
我的意思是，他们都没有真正失控。
I guess one of the reasons they sort of hit me is just because I've been thinking about this a lot.
我想他们打击我的原因之一只是因为我一直在思考这个问题。
And what struck me about it was that feeling, where suddenly you think, this could become a lot worse.
让我印象深刻的是那种感觉，你突然想到，事情可能会变得更糟。
I mean, there are people-- well, OK, I was washing my hands a couple of times before a movie.
我的意思是，有人——好吧，看电影前我洗手了几次。
The movie theaters are kind of dirty places.
电影院是一种肮脏的地方。
But there are people out there who wash their hands hundreds of times a day.
但有些人每天洗手数百次。
And what separates me from that person?
我和那个人有什么区别？
A couple hundred times.
几百次。
Paul Tough Exactly.
保罗确实很坚强。
There's a numeric number we can assign to that difference.
我们可以为该差异分配一个数字。
But I had this feeling there in the movie theater that it could happen at any point.
但我在电影院里有一种感觉，这种事随时可能发生。
So Paul, among these cavalcade of stories that you've brought in to play for us over the course of the hour about obsession, I know that some of them are serious and some of them are lighter.
所以，保罗，在你在一小时内为我们带来的一系列关于痴迷的故事中，我知道其中一些是严肃的，一些是轻松的。
What do you want to start with?
你想从什么开始？
One of the first people that I talked to is actually someone that I know really well, an ex-girlfriend of mine named Jillian.
我最先交谈的人之一实际上是我非常熟悉的人，我的前女友，名叫吉莉安。
And what I wanted to talk to her about was her obsession with the number two.
我想和她谈谈的是她对第二名的痴迷。
When she was a kid, just like any kid, she had a favorite number, a favorite color.
当她还是个孩子的时候，就像其他孩子一样，她有一个最喜欢的数字，最喜欢的颜色。
And her favorite number was two.
她最喜欢的数字是二。
But it became a lot bigger than that.
但它变得比这大得多。
So I started being very preoccupied with doing things twice.
所以我开始全神贯注地把事情做两次。
If I, for example, dropped keys, I would then lean down and pick them up.
例如，如果我把钥匙掉在地上，我就会弯下腰把它们捡起来。
But before I actually picked them up, I would probably drop them again.
但在我真正拿起它们之前，我可能会再次放下它们。
Like really close to the floor so no one would quite know what I was doing.
就像非常靠近地板一样，所以没有人会知道我在做什么。
But I'd be very aware that I was fulfilling some sort of two obligation.
但我很清楚我正在履行某种两项义务。
Her obligations weren't all-consuming, but they were somewhat laborious.
她的义务虽然并不繁重，但也有些费力。
At the dinner table or in class, she'd say something, and then she'd have to repeat it under her breath to make it two.
在餐桌上或课堂上，她会说一些话，然后她必须低声重复，才能变成两件事。
If she made a phone call and the person that she was calling wasn't there, she'd have to let the phone ring an even number of times.
如果她打电话而对方不在，她就得让电话响偶数次。
She started to see the whole world as being divided into things that were even, things that were on the side of two, and things that were odd.
她开始将整个世界分为偶数、两数并立和奇数。
My favorite color was blue, and I also had this fantasy that blue was basically an even color.
我最喜欢的颜色是蓝色，我也幻想蓝色基本上是一种均匀的颜色。
So it all seemed to fit in.
所以这一切似乎都很合适。
But yellow seemed much more odd to me.
但黄色对我来说似乎更奇怪。
And red seemed odd to me.
红色对我来说似乎很奇怪。
And brown seemed even.
棕色看起来很均匀。
Black seemed odd.
黑色看起来很奇怪。
This doesn't resonate at all with you?
这根本没有引起你的共鸣吗？
Tell me a little bit more about the other associations with two.
告诉我更多关于两个人的其他关联的信息。
Like you talked about-- I think you told me once that days of the week were as well?
就像你所说的——我想你曾经告诉过我一周中的那几天也是如此？
Yeah, days.
是的，几天。
Both Sunday and Monday seem even to me.
周日和周一对我来说似乎都是均匀的。
But I don't like them as days at all.
但我一点也不喜欢它们。
I much prefer Tuesdays and Thursdays, which seem odd.
我更喜欢周二和周四，这看起来很奇怪。
I mean, days are weird.
我的意思是，日子很奇怪。
Monday, Wednesday seems pretty even to me.
周一和周三对我来说似乎很均匀。
Tuesday, Thursday, Friday all seem odd.
周二、周四、周五都显得很奇怪。
I've got to say, I see it totally differently.
我不得不说，我的看法完全不同。
You do?
你做？
Paul Tough Yeah.
保罗 坚强 是的。
I see Tuesdays and Thursdays and Saturdays as even, and all the others as odd.
我认为星期二、星期四和星期六是偶数，而其他所有时间都是奇数。
I mean Tuesday, first of all-- it kind of goes without saying.
首先，我指的是星期二——这是不言而喻的。
The thing about an obsession like Jillian's is that it can grow to the point where it's not just this game in your head.
像吉莉安这样的痴迷的问题在于，它可以发展到你脑海中不仅仅只是这个游戏的程度。
It can start to really control your behavior.
它可以开始真正控制你的行为。
And that's a problem, because that's when people start to notice.
这是一个问题，因为那是人们开始注意到的时候。
Jillian, for instance, she not only had a thing with the number two, she also had a deal with symmetry, where things had to be really symmetrical in terms of her body.
以吉莉安为例，她不仅喜欢数字二，而且还喜欢对称，就她的身体而言，事物必须真正对称。
If she would touch her left ear, then she would have touch her right ear.
如果她触摸她的左耳，那么她就会触摸她的右耳。
Things would have to be very even.
事情必须非常均匀。
The big symmetry thing that I can remember is going to a Broadway show with my family.
我记得的最对称的事情是和家人一起去看百老汇演出。
And I had this sense that it didn't feel quite right to just clap with my hands.
我有一种感觉，仅仅用手拍手感觉不太对劲。
And so, I developed this thing about clapping with my elbows, with this idea that somehow that would produce a more symmetrical experience.
因此，我开发了用肘部拍手的方法，我的想法是这样会产生更对称的体验。
And so, I would clap with my hands, and then clap with my elbows, and then maybe even clap with the entire hand and elbow.
所以，我会用双手拍手，然后用肘部拍手，甚至可能用整只手和肘部拍手。
And I can remember just sitting there and someone turning to me and saying, what are you doing?
我记得我坐在那里，有人转向我说，你在做什么？
What are you doing with your elbows?
你用肘部做什么？
And thinking like, this is not normal.
并想，这不正常。
What I want to ask you about is the relationship between the two thing and other people in your life.
我想问你的是这两件事和你生活中的其他人之间的关系。
And I just sort of remember that there were times when you and I were going out where I would get really mad about the two thing.
我只是记得，有时候当你和我出去的时候，我会对这两件事感到非常生气。
I mean, do you remember those times when I would get mad about twos?
我的意思是，你还记得那些时候我会因为两个人而生气吗？
Yeah.
是的。
But I always felt like your irritation about it was just irrational.
但我总觉得你对此的愤怒是不合理的。
I mean, for example, it used to come up a lot with the alarm clock, right?
我的意思是，例如，它曾经经常与闹钟一起出现，对吗？
Like, I set my alarm clock usually for 8:02.
比如，我通常将闹钟设置为 8:02。
If I need a little more sleep, then it's 8:12 or 8:22.
如果我需要多睡一点，那就是 8:12 或 8:22。
I don't really like 8:32, but I'll do that.
我不太喜欢 8:32，但我会这么做。
But so, when I used to want to set the alarm clock for 8:02, and you would object and want to set it-- I mean, first of all, sometimes you would object.
但是所以，当我以前想把闹钟设置为8点02分，而你会反对并想要设置它时——我的意思是，首先，有时你会反对。
You would just want to set it for 8:03, which was just pure malice on your part.
您只想将其设置为 8:03，这纯粹是您的恶意。
Like, obviously, I'm not going to be happy if the alarm clock is set for 8:03.
显然，如果闹钟定在 8:03，我就不会高兴。
I mean, what would you really care if I set the alarm clock for 8:02?
我的意思是，如果我将闹钟设置为 8:02，你真的会关心什么吗？
Well, I actually remember that the minute we started talking about it.
好吧，我实际上记得我们开始谈论它的那一刻。
I actually remember what made me mad about not being able to set the clock for 8:01.
我实际上记得是什么让我因为无法将时钟设置为 8:01 而生气。
Because it is about unnecessarily cluttering your life with things.
因为它会让你的生活变得不必要的混乱。
Spending extra time piling stuff onto your good mood or bad mood just seems totally unnecessary.
花额外的时间来堆砌你的好心情或坏心情似乎完全没有必要。
But you only think about it as piling stuff if it's something that really feels like an obligation.
但只有当你真的感觉这是一种义务时，你才会将其视为堆积东西。
Which the two thing is in a certain way, but it's also just something that you like, or that I like.
这两件事在某种程度上是一样的，但也只是你喜欢的东西，或者我喜欢的东西。
But that's not what would bother me about it.
但这并不是让我烦恼的事情。
It wasn't just that you would say, oh, 8:02.
这不仅仅是你会说，哦，8:02。
Oh, you set it for 8:02.
哦，你把它设置为 8 点 02 分。
That's great.
那太棒了。
That's going to be fun.
那会很有趣。
It was like, if it was 8:01, you'd go nuts.
就好像，如果现在是 8 点零 1 分，你就会发疯。
It wasn't just--
这不只是——
That's because I realized it was coming out of a sadistic impulse in you.
那是因为我意识到这是出于你内心的虐待狂冲动。
Well, if I just happened to be fast-forwarding through the 24 hours, and then I'd drop it around--
好吧，如果我碰巧快进了 24 小时，然后我就会把它扔掉——
No, you would never just happen to set it 8:01.
不，您绝不会碰巧将其设置为 8:01。
You would set it and there'd be something very sinister about your setting the alarm clock.
如果你设置了它，那么你设置的闹钟就会有一些非常险恶的东西。
It only became sinister after I had already felt like you were overdoing it.
当我已经觉得你做得太过分后，它才变得险恶。
Is this really the place to rehearse this?
这里真的是排练的地方吗？
I mean, there is a way in which I'm addicted to the two thing.
我的意思是，在某种程度上我对这两件事上瘾了。
And in a way, that's almost as powerful as any other physical addiction.
在某种程度上，这几乎与任何其他身体成瘾一样强大。
And that doesn't bother you?
那你不介意吗？
Jillian No. I think that I actually kind of like it.
Jillian 不，我想我其实有点喜欢它。
I mean, I think I like having that kind of order in my life and having routine.
我的意思是，我想我喜欢生活中有这样的秩序和规律。
When you would drop the keys and pick them up again, you'd do that sort of quietly, right?
当你放下钥匙并再次拿起它们时，你会安静地这样做，对吗？
So that other people wouldn't think you were doing that?
这样别人就不会认为你这样做了？
Well, I mean, I was clued in enough to know that people would think it would be kind of weird.
嗯，我的意思是，我知道人们会认为这有点奇怪。
Your average Joe is not going to be that sympathetic to someone who has an obsession with the number two.
一般人不会那么同情那些痴迷于第二名的人。
Although I do think-- the more I talk to people-- I do think people have variations of these things.
尽管我确实认为——我与人们交谈得越多——我确实认为人们对这些事情有不同的看法。
You talked about it about being a continuum.
你谈到了它是一个连续体。
And on the one side of the continuum, would be the people who you might just label as quirky.
在连续体的一方面，你可能会认为那些人是古怪的。
And the other side of the continuum would be the people who might have to start taking Prozac, right?
连续体的另一边可能是那些可能必须开始服用百忧解的人，对吗？
And I think-- yeah, I think most people are on the continuum.
我认为——是的，我认为大多数人都处于连续体上。
Paul?
保罗？
I mean, sure most people are on the continuum, but that doesn't explain why one particular person-- why Jillian-- would end up with such an extreme set of beliefs and practices and someone else would end up with fewer.
我的意思是，当然大多数人都处于连续体上，但这并不能解释为什么一个特定的人——为什么吉莉安——最终会采取如此极端的信念和做法，而其他人最终会采取更少的信念和做法。
Why do you think that she ended up at the point where she is on the continuum?
您认为为什么她最终会处于连续体的位置？
We talked about it a lot.
我们谈了很多。
And I don't think either one of us really came up with a definite answer.
我认为我们中的任何一个人都没有真正想出明确的答案。
The one thing I kept thinking about though is, to me, obsessions can sometimes take the place of religion in people's lives.
但我一直在思考的一件事是，对我来说，痴迷有时会取代人们生活中的宗教。
An organized religion gives you certain rules, certain rituals, by which to live your life.
有组织的宗教给你一定的规则、一定的仪式，让你据以生活。
Things will be orderly if you follow those rules.
如果你遵守这些规则，事情就会井然有序。
And if you grow up in a nonreligious environment, maybe you start creating those rules for yourself.
如果你在非宗教环境中长大，也许你会开始为自己制定这些规则。
You grew up in a pretty atheist household, right?
你是在一个相当无神论的家庭长大的，对吧？
Yes.
是的。
Paul Tough So do you think that maybe people who grew up in that sort of household, where there weren't a lot of sets of rituals and where it was sort of a hyper-rational household-- you know what I mean?
Paul Tough 那么你认为也许在那种家庭长大的人，那里没有很多仪式，而且是一个超理性的家庭——你知道我的意思吗？
There's no religion.
没有宗教信仰。
There's two psychologists as parents, who both basically believe that everything can be figured out.
有两位心理学家作为父母，他们基本上都相信一切都可以弄清楚。
But both you-- and I think your siblings too-- have this tendency towards magical thinking.
但你们——我想你们的兄弟姐妹也一样——都有这种神奇思维的倾向。
But my siblings and stuff, I don't think they really experienced-- I could imagine that it is a kind of substitute.
但我的兄弟姐妹和其他人，我认为他们并没有真正经历过——我可以想象这是一种替代品。
But if is, then it was pretty specific to me.
但如果是的话，那么这对我来说是非常具体的。
What about [?
那[?
Elena ?] and the rubber bands?
埃琳娜？]还有橡皮筋？
What do you know about [?
你对[了解多少？
Elena ?] and the rubber bands?
埃琳娜？]还有橡皮筋？
I know that she wore rubber bands around her arm every day for a couple of years or something.
我知道她有几年每天都在手臂上绑橡皮筋。
No. Jillian I don't know either.
不，吉莉安，我也不知道。
I think she wore them-- I mean, she wore a lot of rubber bands.
我想她戴着它们——我的意思是，她戴着很多橡皮筋。
She didn't just wear them around her arm.
她不只是把它们戴在手臂上。
She wore big rubber bands around her neck too.
她脖子上还戴着大橡皮筋。
[LAUGHS] She had lots of rubber bands all the time.
[笑]她一直有很多橡皮筋。
And I think she also carried paperclips in her pockets.
我想她的口袋里还揣着回形针。
And that's a hyper-rational thing, your family--
这是一件超理性的事情，你的家人——
I think if you go into any house though, you'll find these kind of things.
我想如果你走进任何房子，你都会发现这些东西。
My mother used to say that having four kids expanded her idea of the normal.
我母亲过去常说，拥有四个孩子扩展了她对正常生活的看法。
Like, what the normal could entail.
就像，正常情况下可能会发生什么。
So Paul, so what else do we have coming up?
保罗，我们还有什么要说的吗？
Well, I've gathered another few stories about obsession.
好吧，我又收集了一些关于痴迷的故事。
The next one is a little bit further down that continuum.
下一个是在这个连续体的更深处。
This is one with somewhat more serious consequences.
这是一个后果更为严重的问题。
Act Two, Further Out.
第二幕，进一步。
Ira, the thing that's I think a little scary about these compulsions, even the ones that are pretty innocent like Jillian's, is that you feel when you've got them that something else is controlling you.
艾拉，我觉得这些强迫症有点可怕，即使是像吉莉安这样的强迫症，也是如此，当你有这些强迫症时，你会觉得有其他东西在控制你。
And so, that makes you think that you could just suddenly go over the edge, just because you're out of control.
所以，这会让你觉得你可能会突然超出边缘，只是因为你失去了控制。
There's a sense that something else is writing the rules.
有一种感觉是其他东西正在制定规则。
Well, this is a story of someone who did go over the edge-- for awhile, anyway.
好吧，这是一个关于一个人确实走入了极限的故事——至少是暂时的。
It's by a woman named Lauren Slater, who was a psychologist in Boston.
这是一位名叫劳伦·斯莱特的女士写的，她是波士顿的一名心理学家。
And this is an excerpt from a book that's going to be published soon, which is tentatively titled Black Swans .
这是一本即将出版的书的摘录，书名暂定为《黑天鹅》。
And one thing that's really interesting to me about Lauren, especially after having talked to Jillian, is that they sort of started in the same place.
关于劳伦，我真正感兴趣的一件事是，尤其是在与吉莉安交谈之后，他们是从同一个地方开始的。
As a child, Lauren did a lot of the same compulsive things that Jillian did, had a lot of the same superstitious beliefs and fears.
小时候，劳伦做了很多与吉莉安相同的强迫性事情，有很多相同的迷信信仰和恐惧。
When she walked through a door, she had to tap the frame three times.
当她走进门时，她必须敲击门框三下。
When she said her prayers at night, between each prayer, she thought she had to close her eyes and then count to 10 and 1/2.
当她晚上祈祷时，在每次祈祷之间，她认为她必须闭上眼睛，然后数到10又1/2。
But at some point, it went further than that.
但在某些时候，事情远不止于此。
There is something satisfying and scary about making an angel, lowering your bulky body into the drowning fluff, stray flakes landing on your face.
创造一个天使，将你笨重的身体放入淹没的绒毛中，让零散的雪花落在你的脸上，既令人满足又令人恐惧。
I am seven or eight, and the sky looms above me, gray and dead.
我七八岁了，天空在我头顶上若隐若现，灰色而死寂。
I move my arms and legs, expanding, contracting, sculpting snow before it can swallow me up.
我移动我的手臂和腿，在雪吞没我之前扩大、收缩、雕刻雪花。
I register a mistake on my angel, what looks like a thumb print on its left wing.
我在我的天使身上发现了一个错误，它的左翼上看起来像拇指印。
I reach down to erase it, but am unable to smooth the snow perfectly.
我伸手去抹掉它，但无法完美地抚平雪。
So I start again on another angel, lowering myself, swishing and sweeping, rolling over.
于是我再次开始另一个天使，降低自己，嗖嗖地扫，翻滚。
No, yet another mistake.
不，又一个错误。
This time, the symmetry in the wing span is wrong.
这次，翼展的对称性是错误的。
A compulsion comes over me.
我有一种冲动。
I do it again and again.
我一次又一次地这样做。
In my memory, hours go by.
在我的记忆中，几个小时过去了。
My fingers inside my mittens get wrinkled and raw.
我手套里的手指变得又皱又粗糙。
My breath comes heavily and the snow begins to blue.
我的呼吸变得粗重，雪开始变蓝。
A moon rises, a perfect crescent curl whose precise shape I will never be able to recreate.
月亮升起，完美的新月形卷发，我永远无法重现其精确的形状。
I ache for something I cannot name.
我渴望某种我无法命名的东西。
Someone calls me.
有人打电话给我。
Come in now, come in now.
快进来吧，快进来吧。
Very early the next morning, I awaken, look out my bedroom window, and see the yard covered with my frantic forms.
第二天一早，我醒来，望向卧室窗外，看到院子里布满了我疯狂的身影。
Hundreds of angels, none of them quite right.
数百个天使，没有一个是完全正确的。
The forms twist and strain, the wings seeming to struggle up in the winter sun, as if each angel were longing for escape, for a free flight that might crack the crystal and ice of our still, stiff world.
形状扭曲、拉紧，翅膀似乎在冬日的阳光下奋力向上，仿佛每个天使都渴望逃脱，渴望自由的飞行，打破我们静止、僵硬世界的水晶和冰。
Looking back on it now, I think maybe those moments in the snow were when my OCD began, although it didn't come to me full-fledged until my mid-20s.
现在回想起来，我想也许雪地里的那些时刻就是我强迫症的开始，尽管它直到我20多岁才完全成熟。
OCD stands for obsessive compulsive disorder, and some studies say over three million Americans suffer from it.
OCD 代表强迫症，一些研究表明超过 300 万美国人患有这种疾病。
Some mental health professionals claim that the onset of obsession is a response to an underlying fear-- a recent trauma, say, or a loss.
一些心理健康专家声称，痴迷的出现是对潜在恐惧的反应——比如最近的创伤或损失。
I don't believe that that is always true.
我不相信这总是正确的。
Because no matter how hard I think about it, I remember nothing unusual or disorienting before my first attack.
因为无论我多么努力地思考，我都不记得在第一次发作之前没有任何异常或令人迷惑的事情。
I don't know exactly why at 2 o'clock one Saturday afternoon what felt like a seizure shook me.
我不知道为什么在一个周六下午两点，我突然感觉癫痫发作了。
I recall lying on the floor in my apartment in Cambridge.
我记得躺在剑桥公寓的地板上。
I was immersed in a book, The Seven Storey Mountain , walking my way through the tale's church.
我沉浸在《七层山》一书中，走过故事中的教堂。
A monk moaned.
一名修士发出一声呻吟。
And suddenly this, a thought careening across my cortex, I can't concentrate.
突然间，一个想法掠过我的大脑皮层，我无法集中注意力。
Of course, the thought disturbed my concentration, and the monk's moan turned into a whisper, disappeared.
当然，这个念头扰乱了我的注意力，和尚的呻吟声变成了低语，消失了。
I blinked, looked up from the book.
我眨了眨眼睛，从书本上抬起头来。
The floor suddenly frightened me.
地板突然吓到我了。
Between the planks, I could see lines of dark dirt and the sway of a spider crawling.
在木板之间，我可以看到一排排黑色的泥土和一只正在爬行的蜘蛛。
Let me get back, I thought, into the world of the book.
我想，让我回到书的世界吧。
I lowered my eyes to the page, but instead of being able to see the print, there was the thought blocking out all else-- I can't concentrate.
我低下头看着书页，但我并没有看到印刷品，而是有一种想法挡住了其他一切——我无法集中注意力。
Now I started to panic.
现在我开始惊慌了。
Each time I tried to get back to the book, the words crumbled, lost their shapes.
每次我试图回到书本上时，这些文字都崩溃了，失去了形状。
I said to myself, I must not allow that thought about concentration to come into my mind anymore.
我对自己说，我不能再让那种关于专注的想法出现在我的脑海里。
But of course the more I tried to suppress it, the louder it jangled.
但当然，我越想抑制它，它的声音就越大。
I looked at my hand.
我看着我的手。
I ached for its familiar skin.
我渴望它熟悉的皮肤。
But as I held it out, the sentence, I can't concentrate on my hand, blocked out my hand.
但当我伸出手的时候，“我无法集中注意力在我的手上”这句话挡住了我的手。
So all I saw was a blur of flesh.
所以我看到的只是一片模糊的肉。
I tried to force my brain onto other topics, but with each mental dodge, I became aware that I was dodging.
我试图强迫我的大脑转向其他话题，但随着每一次精神上的回避，我意识到我在回避。
And each time I itched, I became aware that I was itching.
每次我痒的时候，我都会意识到自己很痒。
And with each inhalation, I became aware that I was inhaling.
每次吸气时，我都会意识到我正在吸气。
And I thought, if I think too much about breathing, will I forget how to breathe?
我想，如果我对呼吸想得太多，我会忘记如何呼吸吗？
Say "God I'm sorry" 14 times I ordered myself.
我命令自己说“上帝，对不起”14 次。
This is crazy, I said to myself.
这太疯狂了，我对自己说。
15 times, a voice from somewhere else commanded.
15次，从别处传来命令。
In the days after my attack, obsessive thoughts returned.
在我遭受袭击后的几天里，强迫性的想法又回来了。
What before had been inconsequential behaviors, like counting to three before I went through a doorway or checking the stove several times before bed, now became imperatives.
以前一些无关紧要的行为，比如在进门口之前数到三，或者在睡觉前检查几次炉子，现在变成了必须要做的事情。
There were a thousand and one of them to follow.
后面跟着的人有一千零一个。
Rules about how to step, what it meant to touch my mouth, a hot consuming urge to fix the crooked angles of the universe.
关于如何行走的规则，触摸我的嘴意味着什么，修复宇宙弯曲角度的强烈欲望。
It was constant, a cruel nattering.
这是持续不断的、残酷的喋喋不休。
There, that tilted picture on the wall.
那里，墙上那张倾斜的照片。
Scratch your head with your left hand only.
只用左手挠头。
It was noise, the beak of a woodpecker in the soft bark of my brain.
那是噪音，是啄木鸟的喙在我大脑柔软的树皮上发出的声音。
I did very little for the next year.
接下来的一年我做得很少。
I didn't want to go out, because any movement might set off a cycle of obsessions.
我不想出去，因为任何举动都可能引发痴迷的循环。
I sat hunched and lost weight.
我弓着背坐着，体重减轻了。
Fear and grief prevented me from eating much.
恐惧和悲伤使我吃得不多。
When I was too terrified to get out of bed, I checked into the local hospital, where I lay amidst IV drips, bags of blood, murmuring heart machines that let me know someone somewhere near was still alive.
当我害怕得无法起床时，我去了当地医院，在那里我躺在静脉滴注、血袋和低语的心脏机器中，让我知道附近有人还活着。
Then one day, my doctor said to me, there's a new medication called Prozac still in its trial period, but it's 70% effective with OCD.
然后有一天，我的医生对我说，有一种叫做百忧解的新药仍处于试验期，但它对强迫症有 70% 的疗效。
I want to send you to a Doctor Vuckovic.
我想带你去看武科维奇医生。
He's one of the physicians doing trial runs.
他是进行试运行的医生之一。
I shrugged, willing to try.
我耸耸肩，表示愿意尝试。
I'd tried so much, surely this couldn't hurt.
我已经尝试了很多，这肯定不会造成伤害。
I didn't expect much, though.
不过，我并没有抱太大期望。
I certainly didn't expect what I finally got.
我当然没有想到我最终得到了什么。
The pads of paper on Vuckovic's desk are all edged in green and white with the word "Prozac" scripted across the bottom.
Vuckovic 桌上的便签纸的边缘都是绿色和白色的，底部写着“Prozac”字样。
The pen has "Prozac" embossed in tiny letters.
这支笔上刻有小字母“Prozac”。
He asks me about my symptoms for a few minutes, and then uses the Prozac pen to write out a prescription.
他询问了我几分钟的症状，然后用百忧解笔写下了处方。
After a couple of days of nausea and headaches, the Prozac began to work its magic.
经过几天的恶心和头痛后，百忧解开始发挥其魔力。
One morning, I woke up and waited for a command.
一天早上，我起床等待命令。
Touch your nose.
摸摸你的鼻子。
Blink 12 times.
眨眼 12 次。
Try not to think about concentrating.
尽量不要去想集中注意力的事情。
The imperatives came.
当务之急来了。
I could hear them, but from far away, like birds beyond a mountain, a sound nearly silent and easy to ignore.
我能听到它们的声音，但从很远的地方传来，就像山那边的鸟儿一样，声音几乎是无声的，很容易被忽视。
By the fourth day, I felt so shockingly fine that I called Doctor Vuckovic.
到了第四天，我感觉出奇的好，于是我给武科维奇医生打了电话。
I believed he had saved me.
我相信他救了我。
"I'm well," I told him.
“我很好，”我告诉他。
"Not yet.
“还没有。
It takes at least a month to build up the therapeutic blood level." "No," I said.
至少需要一个月的时间才能达到治疗性血液水平。” “不，”我说。
"It doesn't." I felt rushing enjoy.
“没有。”我感到匆忙的享受。
"The medicine you gave me has made me well.
“你给我的药让我好了。
I've actually never felt better." A pause on the line.
事实上我从来没有感觉这么好过。”线路暂停。
"I suppose it could be possible." "Yes," I said.
“我想这是可能的。” “是的，”我说。
"It's happened."
“事情已经发生了。”
Coming up, the chemistry of obsession.
接下来是痴迷的化学反应。
Prozac stops working for Lauren Slater, a beaded kitchen, and more, when our program continues.
当我们的计划继续进行时，百忧解将停止为劳伦·斯莱特（Lauren Slater）、串珠厨房等工作。
It's This American Life .
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
And co-hosting with me for this hour is Paul Tough, one of our contributing editors.
与我共同主持这一小时的是 Paul Tough，我们的特约编辑之一。
And he has assembled a number of stories about obsession.
他收集了许多关于痴迷的故事。
And right now, we're in the middle of a story by Lauren Slater.
现在，我们正在讲劳伦·斯莱特的故事。
And she found herself seized by obsessions, hearing voices that paralyzed her.
她发现自己陷入了痴迷之中，听到了令她瘫痪的声音。
And then nearly overnight, she found herself cured by Prozac.
几乎一夜之间，她发现自己被百忧解治愈了。
How could a drug change my mind so abruptly?
药物怎么能如此突然地改变我的想法呢？
My brain wasn't wet clay and paste, as all good brains should be, but a glinting thing crossed with wires.
我的大脑不是湿粘土和浆糊，所有好大脑都应该是这样，而是一个闪闪发光的东西，上面有电线交叉。
I wasn't human, but machine.
我不是人类，而是机器。
No. I wasn't machine, but animal, linked to my electrified biology more completely than I could have imagined.
不，我不是机器，而是动物，与我的带电生物体的联系比我想象的更完整。
We have come to think lately of machines and animals, of machines and nature, as occupying opposite sides of the spectrum.
最近，我们开始认为机器和动物、机器和自然占据了光谱的对立面。
There is IBM, and then there's the lake.
有IBM，还有湖。
But really, they are so similar.
但实际上，他们是如此相似。
A computer goes on when you push its button.
当您按下计算机的按钮时，计算机就会启动。
A gazelle goes on when it sees a lynx.
当瞪羚看到山猫时，它会继续前进。
Only humans are supposedly different, above the pure cause and effect of the hard-wired primitive world.
据推测，只有人类是不同的，超越了硬连接的原始世界的纯粹因果关系。
Free will and all.
自由意志等等。
But no, maybe not.
但不，也许不是。
For I had swallowed a pill designed through technology.
因为我吞下了一颗通过科技设计的药丸。
And in doing so, I was discovering myself embedded in an animal world.
在这样做的过程中，我发现自己融入了动物世界。
I was a purely chemical being, mood and personality seeping through serotonin.
我是一个纯粹的化学生物，情绪和个性渗透到血清素中。
We are all taught to believe it's true.
我们都被教导要相信这是真的。
But how strange to feel that supposed truth bubbling right in your own tweaked brain pan.
但感觉这个所谓的真理就在你自己扭曲的大脑中冒泡是多么奇怪。
Mornings now, I got up early to jog, showered efficiently, then strode off to the library.
现在的早晨，我早起慢跑，高效地淋浴，然后大步走向图书馆。
I was able to go back to work, cutting deli part time at Formaggio's while I prepared myself for divinity school the next year by reading.
我能够回去工作，在福马吉奥的熟食店兼职，同时我通过阅读为明年的神学院做准备。
I read with an appetite, hungry from all the time I'd lost to illness.
我读起来很有胃口，因为我一直因病而感到饥饿。
The pages of the book seemed very white.
书页看起来很白。
The words were easy, black beads shining, ebony in my quieted mind.
这句话很轻松，黑色的珠子闪闪发光，在我平静的头脑中乌木色。
Then one day, as though I'd never swallowed a Prozac pill, my mind seized and clamped and the obsessions were back.
然后有一天，就像我从未吞过百忧解药丸一样，我的思绪突然被束缚住了，那些痴迷又回来了。
I was staying with a family in Appalachia in Kentucky on an oral history project.
我和肯塔基州阿巴拉契亚的一个家庭住在一个口述历史项目中。
During my interview with Kat, the mother, I decided to take a break in the sandy yard.
在采访母亲凯特时，我决定在沙场休息一下。
It was almost 100 degrees.
差不多有100度了。
Chickens screamed and pecked.
鸡们尖叫着啄食。
In one swift and seamless move, Pat's husband, Lonny, reached down to grab a bird.
帕特的丈夫朗尼迅速而天衣无缝地伸手抓住了一只鸟。
He laid it down on a stump, raised an ax, and cut.
他把它放在树桩上，举起斧头，砍了起来。
The body did its dance.
身体开始跳舞。
Blood spilled.
血洒了出来。
I ran inside.
我跑了进去。
I took a step forward and then said to myself, don't take another step until you count to 25.
我向前迈出了一步，然后对自己说，数到25之前不要再迈出一步。
After I'd satisfied that imperative, I had to count to 25 again, and then halve 25, and then quarter it, before I felt safe enough to walk out the door.
当我满足了这个要求之后，我必须再次数到 25，然后将 25 减半，然后将其四分之一，然后我才感到足够安全，可以走出门。
By the end of the day, each step took over 10 minutes to complete.
到一天结束时，每个步骤都需要 10 多分钟才能完成。
I stopped taking steps.
我停止采取行动。
I sat on my bed.
我坐在床上。
"What's wrong with you?" Kat said.
“你这人怎么回事？”凯特说。
"Come out here and talk with us." I tried, but I got stuck in the doorway.
“出来和我们谈谈吧。”我尝试过，但我被困在门口了。
There was a point above the doorway I just had to see, and then see again.
门口上方有一个点，我只需要看一遍，然后再看一遍。
And inside of me, something screamed, back again, back again.
在我内心深处，有什么东西尖叫着，又回来了，又回来了。
The next morning, a Sunday, Kat told me, "You'll feel better if you come to church with us." She peered into my face, which must have been white and drawn.
第二天早上，周日，凯特告诉我，“如果你和我们一起去教堂，你会感觉更好。”她凝视着我的脸，我的脸一定是苍白而憔悴的。
"Are you suffering from some city sickness?"
“你是不是得了城市病？”
"Come to church," Kat said.
“来教堂吧，”凯特说。
"We can ask the preacher to pray for you." But I didn't believe in prayer where my illness was concerned.
“我们可以请牧师为你祈祷。”但就我的病而言，我不相信祈祷。
I'd come to think that whatever was wrong with me had a simplistic chemical cause.
我开始认为我身上的任何问题都有一个简单的化学原因。
I woke late one night, fists clenched.
一天夜里，我很晚才醒来，握紧了拳头。
It took me an hour to get out of bed, so many numbers I had to do.
我花了一个小时才起床，我要做很多事情。
But I was determined.
但我决心已定。
And then I was walking outside, pushing past the need to count before every step.
然后我走到外面，不再需要在每一步前数数。
I'd passed midnight fields, a single shack with lighted windows.
我经过午夜的田野，看到一间窗户亮着灯的小屋。
Cows slept in a pasture.
奶牛在牧场上睡觉。
I rounded the pasture, walked up a hill.
我绕过牧场，走上一座小山。
And then before me, spreading out in moonlight, a lake.
然后在我面前，在月光下展开的，是一片湖泊。
I stood by its lip.
我站在它的唇边。
My mind was buzzing and jerking.
我的脑子嗡嗡作响。
I don't know at what point the swans appeared.
我不知道天鹅什么时候出现的。
White swans, they must've been.
白天鹅，它们一定是。
But in silhouette, they looked black.
但从剪影来看，它们看起来是黑色的。
And they seemed to materialize straight out of the water.
它们似乎直接从水中显现出来。
They rose to the surface as memories rise to the surface of consciousness.
当记忆浮出意识表面时，它们浮出水面。
Hundreds of black swans, suddenly floating absolutely silent.
数百只黑天鹅，突然悄无声息地飘浮着。
And as I stood there, the counting seized, my mind became silent, and I watched.
当我站在那里时，计数开始了，我的思绪变得安静，我看着。
The swans drifted until it seemed for a few moments that they were inside of me.
天鹅们随波逐流，有那么一会儿它们似乎就在我的体内。
Seven dark silent birds, 14 princesses, a single self swimming in a tepid sea.
七只黑暗沉默的鸟，十四位公主，一个在温热的大海中游泳的自我。
I don't know how long I stood there, or when exactly I left.
我不知道我在那里站了多久，也不知道我什么时候离开的。
The swans disappeared eventually.
天鹅最终消失了。
The counting, ticking, talking of my mind resumed.
我脑子里的计数、滴答、说话又开始了。
Still, even in shattering illness, I had been quieted for a bit.
尽管如此，即使在病重的情况下，我还是安静了一会儿。
Doors in me had opened.
我内心的门打开了。
Elegance had entered.
优雅已经进入。
This thought calmed me.
这个想法让我平静下来。
I was not completely claimed by illness.
我并没有完全被疾病夺走。
Nor was I a prisoner of Prozac, entirely dependent on the medication to function.
我也不是百忧解的囚徒，完全依赖药物发挥作用。
Part of me was still free, a private space not absolutely permeated by pain.
我的一部分仍然是自由的，是一个没有完全被痛苦渗透的私人空间。
A space I could learn to cultivate.
一个我可以学习培养的空间。
It is a smaller space than I would have wished for myself.
这是一个比我自己希望的要小的空间。
Even after I raised my dose, the Prozac never worked as well as it once had.
即使在我增加剂量后，百忧解也不再像以前那样有效。
And years later, I am sometimes sad about that.
多年以后，我有时会为此感到难过。
Other times, strangely relieved, even though my brain is hounded.
其他时候，尽管我的大脑很忙碌，但我却奇怪地松了口气。
I still must check my keys, the stove.
我仍然必须检查我的钥匙和炉子。
I must pause many times while I write this and do a ritual count to 30.
当我写这篇文章时，我必须多次停顿，并仪式性地数到 30。
It's distracting to say the least.
至少可以说，这让人分心。
But still, I write this.
但我还是写了这个。
I can walk, and talk, and play.
我可以走路、说话、玩耍。
I've come to live my life in those brief stretches of silence that arrive throughout the day.
我开始在一天中短暂的沉默中过我的生活。
I am learning something about the single moment.
我正在学习一些关于单一时刻的东西。
How rife with potential it is.
它是多么充满潜力。
How truly loud its tick.
它的滴答声真是响亮。
Lauren Slater is a psychologist and writer in Boston.
劳伦·斯莱特是波士顿的心理学家和作家。
This story is excerpted from her upcoming book, Black Swans .
这个故事摘自她即将出版的书《黑天鹅》。
And also, Paul, you guys are going publish this in Harper's in September, right?
另外，保罗，你们将在 9 月份在《哈泼斯》杂志上发表这篇文章，对吗？
That's right.
这是正确的。
Ira Glass OK.
艾拉·格拉斯 好的。
Lauren Slater's also the author of Welcome to my Country , which is published this year by Random House.
劳伦·斯莱特还是《欢迎来到我的国家》一书的作者，该书今年由兰登书屋出版。
Act Three, Sacred Versus Profane.
第三幕，神圣与世俗。
I'm Ira Glass, here with Paul Tough.
我是艾拉·格拉斯，和保罗·托夫一起。
Paul, welcome back.
保罗，欢迎回来。
Thank you, Ira.
谢谢你，艾拉。
Ira Glass And Paul is one of the contributing editors to our program, also a writer and a senior editor at Harper's magazine.
艾拉·格拉斯和保罗是我们节目的特约编辑之一，也是《哈泼斯》杂志的作家和高级编辑。
Each week in our program, of course, we choose a theme and do a variety of different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，在我们的节目中，我们每周都会选择一个主题，并围绕该主题制作各种不同类型的故事。
And Paul, you have been gathering the stories for this week's show.
保罗，你一直在为本周的节目收集故事。
And the theme is, those who just are tuning in--
主题是，那些刚刚收听的人——
We're talking about obsession, and the compulsions and rituals that go along with it.
我们谈论的是痴迷，以及随之而来的强迫行为和仪式。
So you have kind of a meta-obsession going.
所以你有一种元痴迷。
Sort of an obsession with obsessions.
有点像对痴迷的痴迷。
Exactly.
确切地。
I'm obsessed with the obsessed of all sorts.
我对各种各样的着迷都很着迷。
At least for the purposes of this hour.
至少就这一小时而言。
And as you've been putting this show together over the last few weeks, you've been saying that these kinds of compulsions that we're hearing about share a lot with religion.
当你在过去几周里整理这个节目时，你一直说我们听到的这些强迫行为与宗教有很多共同之处。
Yeah.
是的。
I think there are certain similarities.
我认为有一定的相似之处。
And I think that just as religions can help people sort of find order in a chaotic world, some of these rituals that people create for themselves do the same thing.
我认为，正如宗教可以帮助人们在混乱的世界中找到秩序一样，人们为自己创造的一些仪式也能起到同样的作用。
This reminded me-- when we've talked about this-- this reminded me of something that I learned in Hebrew school as a kid.
这让我想起——当我们谈论这个时——这让我想起了我小时候在希伯来学校学到的东西。
Let me get some music going there.
让我去那里放点音乐吧。
[MUSIC PLAYING] There we go.
[音乐播放] 开始了。
This music was always playing when I was a child, Paul.
保罗，当我还是个孩子的时候，这首音乐就一直在播放。
in the schtiebl in Baltimore.
在巴尔的摩的 schtiebl 。
This is the Glass household, pretty much.
这几乎就是格拉斯一家。
Anyway, what it reminded me of is this thing that I learned that in traditional Judaism-- and you'll still see very religious Jews do this.
不管怎样，它让我想起了我在传统犹太教中学到的东西——你仍然会看到非常虔诚的犹太人这样做。
That in that kind of Judaism, nearly every act of human life is accompanied by some kind of ritual, or a thanks to God, or a prayer, including putting on clothes, washing your hands, using the bathroom, strict rules about what you can eat and how you eat it.
在那种犹太教中，几乎人类生活的每一个行为都伴随着某种仪式，或者对上帝的感谢，或者祈祷，包括穿衣服、洗手、上厕所，对可以吃什么以及如何吃有严格的规定。
You know, the Kosher laws.
你知道，犹太洁食法。
Rules on covering the head.
遮盖头部的规则。
A religious Jew kisses the mezuzah on the door frames in his own home when he enters and leaves a room.
一位虔诚的犹太人进出房间时会亲吻自己家门框上的门框。
Plus all sorts of prayers and blessings.
加上各种祈祷和祝福。
If we hear lightning, there's a blessing for that.
如果我们听到闪电，那就是一种祝福。
If we see thunder, there's a blessing for that.
如果我们看到雷声，那就是一种祝福。
If we hear bad news during the day, there's a blessing to bless the true judge.
如果我们白天听到坏消息，就会有祝福来祝福真正的法官。
If we hear good news, depending on what type of good news, we might say, [UNINTELLIGIBLE].
如果我们听到好消息，根据好消息的类型，我们可能会说，[无法理解]。
This is Mayer Silber, 35 years old, father of three, a member of the Chabad Hasidic Community here in Chicago.
我是 Mayer Silber，35 岁，三个孩子的父亲，芝加哥 Chabad Hasidic 社区的成员。
He's a litigator for the local district council of the IRS.
他是美国国税局当地地区委员会的诉讼律师。
He was gracious enough to come in and talk to me about the similarities and differences between the hundred rituals that he does as a religious Jew every day, and the more secular rituals that you've been talking about, the people you've interviewed, Paul, have been talking about over the course of the hour so far.
他很客气地进来和我谈论他作为一个虔诚的犹太人每天所做的一百种仪式之间的异同，以及你一直在谈论的、你采访过的人，保罗，到目前为止在一个小时内一直在谈论的更世俗的仪式。
And when he came in, I described a bunch of these kind of daily compulsive rituals to him.
当他进来时，我向他描述了一堆这样的日常强迫性仪式。
Jillian's having to do things in twos-- dropping her car keys and then having to drop them a second time.
吉莉安不得不分两次做事——先把车钥匙掉了，然后又不得不再掉一次。
Or Lauren Slater's having to count to 30 every now and then before she can allow herself to move forward in any task.
或者劳伦·斯莱特 (Lauren Slater) 必须时不时地数到 30，然后才能让自己在任何任务中取得进展。
And Mayer Silber said, really, he only sees one similarity between what they're doing and what he does.
梅耶·西尔伯说，实际上，他只看到他们正在做的事情和他所做的事情之间有一个相似之处。
I would only say that it's just the capability to be devout to something.
我只想说，这就是对某件事虔诚的能力。
I think maybe we should go onto the differences from there.
我想也许我们应该从那里开始讨论差异。
And I guess it sounds like, the way you described them, and I may be wrong, that these people are imprisoned by certain actions.
我想，按照你描述的方式，这些人因某些行为而被监禁，我可能是错的。
I don't feel imprisoned.
我不觉得自己被囚禁了。
I don't feel compelled to say, oh, I can't be in a car from sundown on Friday to sundown on Saturday.
我不觉得有必要说，哦，我不能从周五日落到周六日落在车里。
I look at it as freedom.
我将其视为自由。
One interesting difference between Mayer and the people who we've heard about so far in the program is that when Mayer goes through his daily rituals-- when any religious person, I guess, goes through their daily rituals-- it connects him to a tradition, to the Bible, to the Torah, to his family, to his people.
梅耶尔和我们迄今为止在节目中听说过的人之间的一个有趣的区别是，当梅耶尔进行他的日常仪式时——我想，当任何宗教人士进行他们的日常仪式时——这将他与传统、圣经、托拉、他的家人、他的人民联系起来。
Whereas the people who we've heard in the show up 'til now, when they go through the day with their very obsessive rituals, it doesn't connect them to anyone else.
然而，到目前为止，我们在节目中听到的人们，当他们以非常痴迷的仪式度过这一天时，这并没有将他们与其他任何人联系起来。
Their path is just a lot more lonely.
他们的道路更加孤独。
Do you obey the Commandments our of fear that something bad will happen if you don't?
你是否遵守诫命，因为担心不遵守诫命就会发生不好的事情？
I would say that I do.
我会说我愿意。
Yes.
是的。
To be honest.
说实话。
Yeah.
是的。
Mayer Silber Oh, I guess maybe it's the fear of not knowing.
Mayer Silber 哦，我想也许是因为不知道的恐惧。
The fear of not belonging.
害怕没有归属感。
Sort of like this abandonment, that maybe with my abandonment of God, God would abandon me.
有点像这种抛弃，也许随着我抛弃上帝，上帝也会抛弃我。
And I would be alone.
我会孤身一人。
And I'd be responsible for myself.
而且我会对自己负责。
Where here I feel like if I can go and do the things that God wants, God is with me.
我觉得如果我能去做上帝想要的事情，上帝就与我同在。
Ira, one thing that I find kind of interesting is that even though Mayer is describing how different he is from Jillian, say, I think there are a lot of similarities between how they see their worlds.
艾拉，我觉得有趣的一件事是，尽管梅耶尔描述了他与吉莉安有多么不同，但我认为他们看待自己世界的方式有很多相似之处。
I think that, especially when he was talking about his fears, I think Jillian's are a lot the same way.
我认为，尤其是当他谈论自己的恐惧时，我认为吉莉安的恐惧也很相似。
It's not that she's terrified of the number two.
并不是说她害怕第二名。
But she--
但她——
She's not afraid of the wrath of two.
她不怕两个人的愤怒。
Just like he's not afraid of the wrath of God coming down on him if he doesn't obey the Commandments.
就像如果他不遵守诫命，他就不怕上帝的愤怒降临到他身上一样。
But I think that she feels like it's kind of a dangerous world, and it helps to have something on her side.
但我认为她觉得这是一个危险的世界，有一些东西站在她一边会有所帮助。
In her case, it's the number two.
就她而言，这是第二位。
I think just like he said that he'd feel sort of lonely or separated if he disobeyed God, in the same way I think Jillian would really miss the number two.
我想就像他说如果他违背上帝，他会感到有点孤独或分离，同样我认为吉莉安也会非常想念第二名。
Act Four, Heroic Obsessions.
第四幕，英雄迷恋。
Paul Tough Now Ira, one thing about the way that we judge obsessions is how successful the person is.
Paul Tough 现在艾拉，我们判断痴迷的方式之一是这个人有多成功。
I mean, take Michael Jordan.
我的意思是，以迈克尔乔丹为例。
In every way, he's a completely obsessed person.
从各个方面来说，他都是一个完全痴迷的人。
He's obsessed with winning, to what we'd consider to be a really unhealthy degree if he wasn't such a good basketball player.
他对胜利非常着迷，如果他不是一名出色的篮球运动员，我们会认为他对胜利的痴迷程度非常不健康。
I mean, it's just lucky that he is able to carry the team on his back whenever he needs to and actually win.
我的意思是，幸运的是他能够在需要的时候将球队扛在肩上，并真正获胜。
If not, he'd be up on a freeway overpass somewhere.
如果没有的话，他就会在某个地方的高速公路立交桥上。
Right, exactly.
对，完全正确。
If the story of obsession could be subsumed in a larger story of heroism and glory, then the obsession-- nobody even pays attention to it.
如果痴迷的故事可以包含在一个更大的英雄主义和荣耀的故事中，那么痴迷——甚至没有人关注它。
Right.
正确的。
Ira Glass Well, this leads us to our next two stories here on our show.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 好吧，这引出了我们节目中接下来的两个故事。
This is the work of two people who've immersed themselves in their own particular obsessions.
这是两个沉浸在自己特定爱好中的人的作品。
And people at home can judge for themselves with what results.
家里的人可以自己判断结果如何。
This first piece of work is one of the stranger things, I have to say, we've ever put on the show.
我不得不说，这第一件作品是我们演出过的最奇怪的作品之一。
A guy named Greg Whitehead has been collecting the sound of people screaming-- and their thoughts about the meaning of different kinds of screams-- for years all over the world.
多年来，一位名叫格雷格·怀特海德（Greg Whitehead）的人一直在收集世界各地人们的尖叫声以及他们对不同类型尖叫声含义的看法。
He sets up these special phone lines that people call into.
他设置了这些特殊的电话线供人们拨打。
He's set up a thing called The Institute of Scream Studies.
他建立了一个名为“尖叫研究所”的机构。
A scream is often treated as some kind of insurmountable, impenetrable obstacle, pure, white noise force, that is beyond analysis and unworthy of any kind of interpretation.
尖叫常常被视为某种不可逾越、无法逾越的障碍，纯粹的白噪音力量，无法分析，不值得任何解释。
But here at the institute, we hear the scream from entirely the other perspective-- the scream as an opening, as an entry point, as an access point.
但在研究所里，我们听到的尖叫声完全是另一个角度——尖叫声是一个开口，一个入口，一个接入点。
An entry into a vast interior landscape that has as its surface this highly nuanced, very individual, psycho-acoustic force to it.
进入广阔的室内景观，其表面具有高度微妙、非常个性化的心理声学力量。
[SCREAMING] Greg Whitehead There's also a scream line, the actual journey that the screamer takes into the interior landscape.
[尖叫] Greg Whitehead 还有一条尖叫线，尖叫者进入室内景观的实际旅程。
And when we established the telephone answering machine here at the institute, we called it the "scream line," because that machine was going to circulate individual scream lines into--
当我们在研究所建立电话答录机时，我们称之为“尖叫线”，因为那台机器将把单独的尖叫线循环到--
Thank you, Mr. Whitehead.
谢谢你，怀特海德先生。
I believe you are on the wrong track.
我相信你走错了路。
I'm sure if you came to my house, you would hear the screams that you'd never want to hear again.
我确信如果你来到我家，你会听到你再也不想听到的尖叫声。
[LOUD SCREAMING]
[大声尖叫]
[SCREAMING] Oh, I feel much better now.
[尖叫]哦，我现在感觉好多了。
Thank you.
谢谢。
[SCREAMING] Girl Hi.
[尖叫]女孩嗨。
I'm [?
我是 [？
Melia Mangum.
梅利亚·曼古姆。
?] I'm eight years old, and here's my scream.
？] 我八岁了，这是我的尖叫声。
[SCREAMING] Bye.
[尖叫]再见。
The scream-- Woman 3 Hi.
尖叫声——女人3嗨。
It's kind of early in the morning to scream.
凌晨一点就想尖叫。
So I don't think I'll scream, but I'm going to tell you a story.
所以我想我不会尖叫，但我会告诉你一个故事。
I was thinking about how screams sometimes come later, much later, like a kind of delayed reaction.
我在想尖叫声有时会来得很晚，很晚，就像一种延迟反应。
So this is a true story that happened long ago when I was a teenager.
这是一个很久以前发生在我十几岁的时候的真实故事。
And I was on this train.
而我就在这列火车上。
Like, I'd run away I think with this guy.
就像，我想我会和这个家伙一起逃跑。
And we were on this train.
我们就在这列火车上。
And we'd been going for days and nights.
我们已经走了几天几夜。
And it had got really steamy on this train.
这趟火车上真的很热。
And it's kind of a seedy atmosphere.
而且气氛有点肮脏。
And everybody was playing cards.
每个人都在打牌。
All the time, playing cards and smoking.
一直在打牌、抽烟。
And then suddenly, this fight broke out.
然后突然之间，这场战斗爆发了。
Like, out of nowhere.
就像，不知从何而来。
First, it was just these sounds.
首先，只是这些声音。
It was, like, really muffled sounds.
那声音就像是非常低沉的声音。
Bodies colliding and ricocheting down the corridors and stuff.
尸体在走廊里碰撞、弹跳。
And then these kind of muffled shots.
然后就是这些低沉的镜头。
And we pulled the door across our compartment, and this body kind of rolled over, rolled past, stumbled past.
我们拉开隔间的门，这个身体就翻滚着，滚过去，跌跌撞撞地过去。
And there was blood just smeared all over the glass.
玻璃上沾满了血。
And you couldn't see anything because of that.
因此你什么也看不到。
It's like the sounds and the vision, and everything was muffled.
就像声音和景象一样，一切都变得低沉。
But it took hours and hours before we reached the next town, and we're going through this small desert.
但我们花了好几个小时才到达下一个城镇，而且我们正在穿过这片小沙漠。
But when we eventually got there, the train stopped.
但当我们最终到达那里时，火车停了下来。
And there was this scene kind of took place in absolute silence.
这一幕是在绝对的寂静中发生的。
It was extraordinary.
这是非凡的。
No one seemed to speak.
似乎没有人说话。
And it was incredibly hot and hazy.
而且天气非常热而且雾蒙蒙的。
And there was just this desert all around.
周围只有一片沙漠。
And they took the body off the train.
他们把尸体从火车上抬了下来。
And then the guy who'd killed him was taken off with handcuffs.
然后杀了他的人就被戴上手铐带走了。
And these few cops appeared from nowhere.
这几个警察凭空出现。
And it was just like this platform in the middle of nowhere.
就像这个不知名的平台一样。
I mean suddenly, out of the silence, this scream came.
我的意思是，突然间，从寂静中传来了尖叫声。
It was just like something between a wail and a scream.
这就像介于哀号和尖叫之间的声音。
And it's like it just went right through the whole landscape.
就好像它刚刚穿过了整个景观。
And it's like the dust sort of settled in the air as the scream kind of just hung there.
就像空气中的尘埃落定一样，而尖叫声却悬在那里。
It just seemed like for ages.
看起来好像已经很久了。
I don't know if I can do that scream.
我不知道我是否能发出这样的尖叫声。
I can hear it really, really clearly.
我能听得非常非常清楚。
I'll try, but I think it won't be like that.
我会尝试，但我想事情不会是这样的。
Anyway, it was something like this.
无论如何，事情就是这样的。
[SCREAMING]
[尖叫]
That compendium of screams from Greg Whitehead of the Institute for Scream Studies.
尖叫研究所格雷格·怀特海德的尖叫概要。
He invites your screams and your thoughts about screamings.
他邀请你尖叫以及你对尖叫的想法。
And if we get together enough of these from around the country, he's going to put together a second compendium of screams for some later show that we'll play.
如果我们从全国各地收集到足够多的尖叫声，他就会整理出第二份尖叫汇编，供我们稍后播放的节目使用。
So a little radio experiment.
这是一个小小的无线电实验。
Here is the phone number to call.
这是要拨打的电话号码。
Call 312-832-3326.
请致电 312-832-3326。
Again, 312-832-3326.
再次，312-832-3326。
We're serious about this.
我们对此是认真的。
Call, scream, and talk about screams.
打电话，尖叫，谈论尖叫。
And Paul, while people are dialing--
保罗，当人们打电话时——
Well, the next person that I talked to is an artist in San Diego named Liza Lou.
好吧，我交谈的下一个人是圣地亚哥的一位艺术家，名叫 Liza Lou。
And she is another obsessed person who has a heroic narrative of obsession.
而她，又是一个有着痴迷英雄叙事的痴迷者。
For five years, she had a ritual that she did every day.
五年来，她每天都有一个仪式。
She would get up in the morning, get dressed, get ready to go about her day, and then sit down at her studio with tweezers, and white glue, and tens of thousands of tiny little beads.
她早上起床，穿好衣服，准备好开始新的一天，然后拿着镊子、白胶水和数以万计的小珠子坐在工作室里。
And she would spend the whole day gluing them down into patterns.
她会花一整天的时间把它们粘成图案。
And at the end of five years, she'd created this amazing work of art.
五年后，她创造了这件令人惊叹的艺术作品。
I haven't had much luck describing this work.
我不太幸运地描述了这项工作。
What does that mean, a beaded kitchen?
串珠厨房是什么意思？
You imagine a beaded skirt or a beaded top.
您想象一条串珠裙子或一件串珠上衣。
The best I can do is I can say, this is a three-dimensional room.
我最多只能说，这是一个三维的房间。
It's 200 square feet.
这是200平方英尺。
It's painted.
是画出来的
But it's painted with beads that you have to apply with the tweezers one at a time.
但它涂有珠子，你必须用镊子一次一颗地涂抹。
So it's this amazing amount of color.
所以它的颜色数量惊人。
It's pinks and blues and silvers and golds.
有粉色、蓝色、银色和金色。
Imagine a wood grain counter in your kitchen.
想象一下您厨房里的木纹柜台。
Only suddenly, instead of brown wood, it's become golden and yellow and burnt copper.
只是突然间，它不再是棕色的木头，而是变成了金色、黄色和烧焦的铜色。
There's a table in the middle of the kitchen with a bright beaded tablecloth.
厨房中间有一张桌子，上面铺着明亮的串珠桌布。
On the table are a plate of pancakes that's beaded, and a cereal box that's beaded, and toast and bacon and a newspaper-- all of them beaded.
桌子上有一盘串着串珠的煎饼，一个串着串珠的麦片盒，还有烤面包、培根和一张报纸——所有这些都串着串珠。
Behind the table, there are beaded cupboards, a beaded fridge, cookbook, stove.
桌子后面有串珠橱柜、串珠冰箱、食谱和炉灶。
Every surface is covered with tens of thousands of beads.
每个表面都覆盖着数以万计的珠子。
And the effect is one of unbelievable color.
其效果是一种令人难以置信的色彩。
The whole place seems like it's plugged in.
整个地方就像是插上了电源一样。
It's just shining.
它只是闪闪发光。
Nothing's bare.
没有什么是赤裸裸的。
There's even a beaded dustpan on the floor that's filled with beaded dust.
地板上甚至还有一个串珠簸箕，里面装满了串珠灰尘。
The thing about an obsession is you never know where it's going to lead.
痴迷的问题在于你永远不知道它会带向何方。
One minute, you're just a regular person collecting autographs or saving string or trying to keep clean.
前一分钟，你只是一个收集签名、保存绳子或试图保持干净的普通人。
And then, something just overtakes you.
然后，有什么东西突然超越了你。
For Liza-- and I think for a lot of people-- you reach a point where it's suddenly not so much fun.
对于丽莎来说——我想对于很多人来说——你会突然变得不再那么有趣。
It's a job.
这是一份工作。
It's a duty.
这是一种义务。
I didn't think about it.
我没有考虑。
I thought it would take about six months to do when I started.
刚开始的时候我以为大约需要六个月的时间才能完成。
I didn't think it would take so much.
我没想到会花这么多钱。
I didn't realize it would take my life.
我没有意识到这会夺走我的生命。
It's like falling in love, maybe.
也许就像坠入爱河一样。
It's a form of where you watch you life-- you watch everything else fall away.
这是你观察自己生活的一种形式——你看着其他一切都消失。
You lose everything in a sense.
从某种意义上说，你会失去一切。
For five years, I was in the constant stage of to-do lists.
五年来，我一直处于不断列出待办事项的阶段。
Of stress and pressure, and always feeling like a failure.
充满压力和压力，总是感觉自己很失败。
Because every day you feel as though you've got nothing done.
因为每天你都感觉自己什么都没做。
You maybe get five inches of work done-- five inches of an entirely beaded kitchen.
你可能会完成五英寸的工作——五英寸的完全串珠的厨房。
So you really felt like a failure every day for five years?
所以你真的五年来每天都觉得自己很失败吗？
It's such a personal problem.
这是一个个人问题。
I mean, yeah.
我的意思是，是的。
I always would feel like I didn't get enough done.
我总觉得自己做得还不够。
I never had the feeling of, wow, did I just really do well today.
我从未有过这样的感觉：哇，我今天真的表现得很好吗？
Maybe I'll work an 18-hour day.
也许我会每天工作 18 小时。
And then maybe I'll continue to do that for two weeks.
然后也许我会继续这样做两周。
So how much time did that take?
那么这花了多少时间？
I don't clock in.
我不打卡。
How many days in those five years did you not work on it at all?
这五年里有多少天你根本没有做这件事？
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我不知道。
And I don't know how much it cost me to do it.
而且我不知道我花了多少钱才做到这一点。
I don't know.
我不知道。
If I knew those answers, I wouldn't do it.
如果我知道这些答案，我就不会这么做。
Nobody who thinks like that would bead a kitchen.
有这种想法的人不会去装饰厨房。
The wall panels were really challenging.
墙板确实具有挑战性。
Because the curiosity is the thing that motivates me.
因为好奇心是我的动力。
I'm not patient, I'm curious.
我没有耐心，我很好奇。
So I already knew-- once I had done one wall panel, I knew what it was going to look like.
所以我已经知道了——一旦我完成了一块墙板，我就知道它会是什么样子。
Then I had to do nine more or eight more panels.
然后我不得不再做九个或八个面板。
And then they all get put together.
然后它们全部放在一起。
And that was really difficult.
这真的很困难。
I would wonder, god, why am I so depressed?
我想知道，天啊，为什么我这么沮丧？
And then, finally, I stood the whole wall up and I realized, my god, no wonder I've been depressed.
然后，最后，我把整堵墙都竖了起来，我意识到，天啊，难怪我一直很沮丧。
I've been doing the same pattern for the last three months.
过去三个月我一直在做同样的事情。
She didn't have any grants or patrons when she was working on the kitchen.
当她在厨房工作时，没有任何补助或赞助人。
So to make ends meet, she'd have to sell pieces of her work from time to time.
因此，为了维持生计，她不得不时不时地出售自己的作品。
And, of course, the pieces that she'd sell would be beaded.
当然，她出售的作品都是串珠的。
They would be pieces from the kitchen.
它们将是厨房里的碎片。
And in fact, she says that she's probably sold the equivalent of the kitchen.
事实上，她说她可能已经卖掉了相当于厨房的东西。
There's sort of another entire kitchen out there in various people's homes.
在不同的人家里还有另一个完整的厨房。
So she'd have to bead in order to buy beads in order to bead.
所以她必须要串珠才能买串珠才能串珠。
It's one step backward, and then another step forward, hopefully.
这是退一步，然后又向前迈了一步，希望如此。
Hopefully, it would buy two months in the studio-- one sale or two sales.
希望它能在工作室里呆上两个月——一次销售或两次销售。
And the problem with my work is that it takes so long.
我的工作的问题是它需要很长时间。
So selling a soup can wouldn't just set me back a day.
所以卖一罐汤并不会让我耽误一天的时间。
It would set me back maybe several weeks.
这可能会让我耽误几周的时间。
For a long time, I resented how hard it was.
很长一段时间，我都怨恨它是多么的艰难。
This didn't seem right.
这似乎不对。
I mean, nobody who works at I.
我的意思是，没有人在我这里工作。
Magnin has to work at I.
马格宁必须在 I 工作。
Magnin in order to then work at I.
Magnin 以便随后在 I 工作。
Magnin.
马格宁。
Do you know what I mean?
你知道我的意思吗？
She was living in LA a couple of years ago, and there was an earthquake that almost destroyed the building that her studio was in.
几年前她住在洛杉矶，一场地震几乎摧毁了她工作室所在的建筑。
I got this phone call in the middle of the night.
我半夜接到这个电话。
I had an apartment where basically they were locking the studio out, where you would lose everything.
我有一套公寓，基本上他们把工作室锁在外面，在那里你会失去一切。
They did this to doctors' offices.
他们对医生办公室这样做了。
They lost all their files.
他们丢失了所有文件。
Because once a building is condemned, they lock it out, and you can't get back in.
因为一旦建筑物被报废，他们就会把它锁起来，你就不能再进去了。
So there was this moment where I didn't know if I was going to lose three years of work.
所以有那么一刻，我不知道我是否会失去三年的工作。
And if I had lost it, if it had gotten locked out, I wondered, would I do it again?
如果我把它弄丢了，如果它被锁在门外，我想知道，我还会再做一次吗？
Would I make that table again?
我会再做那张桌子吗？
But thankfully, I had time.
但值得庆幸的是，我有时间。
We had two hours to get everything.
我们有两个小时的时间来获得所有东西。
And a bunch of friends came and we just shoved everything.
一群朋友来了，我们就把所有东西都推了过去。
And this work is so fragile.
而这项工作是如此脆弱。
Can you imagine doing this in two hours?
你能想象在两个小时内完成这件事吗？
But we got everything in the truck.
但我们把所有东西都装在卡车里了。
And I ended up moving even further south to San Diego.
我最终搬到了更南边的圣地亚哥。
So did you ever answer that question for yourself, about what you would have done if it was destroyed?
那么你有没有亲自回答过这个问题：如果它被毁了你会怎么做？
Oh, thank god I didn't have to answer that question.
哦，谢天谢地，我不必回答这个问题。
The thing is, people think I'm patient.
问题是，人们认为我很有耐心。
And I'm not patient.
而且我没有耐心。
I'm tremendously impatient.
我实在是太不耐烦了。
But I'm very, very curious.
但我非常非常好奇。
Just to point of death, I'm curious.
就到了死亡的边缘，我很好奇。
I wanted to know what it would look like to bead a table.
我想知道在桌子上串珠会是什么样子。
That's what got me through it.
这就是让我度过难关的原因。
It's the same pattern.
这是相同的模式。
It's a pink and silver and blue pattern, again and again and again and again.
这是粉色、银色和蓝色的图案，一次又一次，一次又一次。
But what sustained the interest was, what will it look like when it's finished?
但维持兴趣的是，它完成后会是什么样子？
So if I had lost the piece, and I knew what it took to do the piece, and I already knew what it looked like, why would I do it again?
因此，如果我失去了这件作品，并且我知道制作这件作品需要什么，而且我已经知道它是什么样子，为什么我还要再做一次呢？
What would be the motivating factor?
激励因素是什么？
Would that be to make it so that you could see it?
难道是为了让你能看到它吗？
I'm not sure if that's what motivates me.
我不确定这是否是我的动力。
I'm not sure if the approval of anyone else is what motivates me.
我不确定其他人的认可是否是我的动力。
If I had known that there would be those kind of sacrifices, I probably wouldn't have done it.
如果我知道会有这样的牺牲，我可能就不会这么做了。
But as they came up, it was sort of like, as you cross that road, you decide if you're going to jump over it or if you're going to retreat.
但当他们出现时，有点像当你穿过那条路时，你决定是要跳过它还是要撤退。
And every time, I found that I would jump over it.
每一次，我发现我都会跳过它。
Life is so-- there's so much chaos.
生活就是如此——有如此多的混乱。
I think that one of the great solutions to dealing with that chaos is to have a mission, to have some kind of purpose.
我认为处理这种混乱的最佳解决方案之一就是有一个使命，有某种目的。
That's sort of the way I deal with why I'm here, is to make every square inch something meaningful.
这就是我处理我来这里的方式，就是让每一寸土地都变得有意义。
My materials happen to speak of that, because they are so slow and painstaking.
我的材料碰巧谈到了这一点，因为它们是如此缓慢和艰苦。
And I have all this time to think about purpose, and why am I doing this, and is this a meaningful thing to be doing?
我有这么多的时间来思考目的，为什么我要做这件事，这是一件有意义的事情吗？
Everything has meaning.
一切都有意义。
That's the philosophy of my work.
这就是我的工作理念。
Absolutely everything has meaning if you give it meaning.
如果你赋予它意义，一切都绝对有意义。
I had this thing up in my studio.
我把这个东西放在我的工作室里。
And also it's a loft.
而且它还是一个阁楼。
So I was having something repaired.
所以我正在修理一些东西。
And the repairman came inside and was fixing my washer and dryer.
修理工进来修理我的洗衣机和烘干机。
And he looked at my kitchen, and it was almost finished.
他看了看我的厨房，它快完工了。
So it was really what you're looking at, just about, maybe minus a tile or too.
所以这确实是你所看到的，只是，也许减去了一块瓷砖或者也没有。
He put his hands on his hips.
他把手放在臀部上。
He said, neat hobby.
他说，纯粹的爱好。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
Liza Lou's kitchen is currently on display in a museum in Minneapolis.
丽莎·卢的厨房目前陈列在明尼阿波利斯的一家博物馆中。
And she's working on a beaded backyard, including a million beaded blades of grass.
她正在一个串珠后院工作，里面有一百万片串珠草叶。
Well, Paul Tough, thank you for co-hosting and sitting here for this hour with me.
好吧，Paul Tough，感谢您与我共同主持并坐在这里与我共度这一小时。
Well, thank you, Ira.
嗯，谢谢你，艾拉。
Ira Glass Our program was produced today by Alix Spiegel, Paul Tough, and myself, with Peter Clowney, Nancy Updike, and Dolores Wilber.
艾拉·格拉斯 今天我们的节目由阿利克斯·斯皮格尔、保罗·托夫和我本人以及彼得·克劳尼、南希·厄普代克和多洛雷斯·威尔伯共同制作。
Contributing editors, Paul Tough, Jack Hitt, and Margy Rochlin.
特约编辑 Paul Tough、Jack Hitt 和 Margy Rochlin。
Original vibraphone music today, written and performed by Carrie Biolo.
今天的原创电颤琴音乐，由 Carrie Biolo 创作和演奏。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] If you would like a copy of this program, it's only $10.
[致谢] 如果您想要一份该程序的副本，仅需 10 美元。
Call us to get that at WBEZ in Chicago.
请致电我们在芝加哥 WBEZ 获取该信息。
The phone number is 312-832-3380.
电话号码是 312-832-3380。
If you want to leave screams, stories about screams, or thoughts about screams for the Institute for Scream Studies, call 312-832-3326, and we will pass those along.
如果您想向尖叫研究所留下尖叫声、关于尖叫的故事或关于尖叫的想法，请致电 312-832-3326，我们会将这些信息转达。
Our email address, [email protected] .
我们的电子邮件地址，[电子邮件受保护]。
[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight by Torey Malatia.
[资金来源] WBEZ 管理由 Torey Malatia 监督。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。