290: Godless America - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #290 | June 3, 2005 290: Godless America Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 290 集 | 2005 年 6 月 3 日 290：无神美国 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
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Prologue Ira Glass Last year in Janesville, Wisconsin, the city council had to vote in giving some federal money to the Salvation Army to build a homeless shelter.
序言 艾拉·格拉斯 去年，威斯康星州简斯维尔市议会必须投票决定向救世军提供一些联邦资金，用于建造无家可归者收容所。
It's a small town, small enough that the council people are volunteers.
这是一个小镇，小到议会的成员都是志愿者。
And one of them, Paul Williams, voted yes to the federal money, but he added wording saying that the Salvation Army couldn't use the facility to hold prayer services or proselytize because of the separation of church and state.
其中一位保罗·威廉姆斯（Paul Williams）对联邦资金投了赞成票，但他补充说，由于教会与国家的分离，救世军不能使用该设施举行祈祷仪式或传教。
Well, these days, those are fighting words.
好吧，这些天，这些都是战斗言论。
A couple of congressmen were called, and they got a hold of Secretary Green--
几名国会议员被叫来，他们联系上了格林部长——
This is the secretary of the Department of Housing and Urban Development?
这是住建部的秘书？
Correct.
正确的。
Ira Glass So it got up to the United States Cabinet.
艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 于是，此事就交给了美国内阁。
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass OK.
艾拉·格拉斯 好的。
And Janesville is a town of how big?
简斯维尔有多大？
Janesville is 60,000 people.
简斯维尔有 60,000 人。
Ira Glass You get a lot of attention from the US Cabinet over there?
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：那边的美国内阁对你很关注吗？
No. Not usually.
不，通常不会。
Ira Glass It got bigger.
艾拉·格拉斯 它变得更大了。
On March 1, President Bush himself chastised the city council, saying that they had, quote, "No right to tell the Salvation Army that the price of running a center was giving up its prayers." In other words, yes, it is illegal to use federal money to proselytize.
3 月 1 日，布什总统本人严厉批评市议会，称他们“无权告诉救世军，运营一个中心的代价就是放弃祈祷。”换句话说，是的，使用联邦资金传教是违法的。
But just as long as the government was only funding the building and not the prayer service itself, it was fine with the president.
但只要政府只资助这座建筑而不是祈祷仪式本身，总统就没有意见。
For a city councilman who usually deals with sidewalks and zoning questions, who thought he was just following the law, this whole noisy mess was a bit surprising.
对于一个通常处理人行道和分区问题的市议员来说，他认为自己只是在遵守法律，这整个吵闹的混乱有点令人惊讶。
The local head of the Salvation Army, Major David Taube, was even quoted in The Janesville Gazette, questioning Paul Williams' morality.
《简斯维尔公报》甚至援引救世军当地负责人大卫·陶布少校的话说，质疑保罗·威廉姆斯的道德。
A quote in the newspaper from him said, I have some concerns that we would have a city council person so anti-Christian, so anti-spiritual.
报纸上引用他的话说：“我有些担心我们会有一个如此反基督教、如此反精神的市议会成员。”
I don't know.
我不知道。
I'm at a loss for words.
我无言以对。
Yeah.
是的。
And just to be clear, for the record, do you oppose the Christian church?
澄清一下，郑重声明，您反对基督教会吗？
He wants to know, for the record, if I oppose the Christian church.
他想知道，作为记录，我是否反对基督教会。
That's my wife.
那是我的妻子。
Ira Glass You just put your hand over the phone, and you said, he wants to know, for the record, if I oppose the Christian church.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 你刚刚把手放在电话上，你说，他想知道，郑重声明，我是否反对基督教会。
Yeah.
是的。
Well, as far as in my political role, again, I try and keep that separate.
好吧，就我的政治角色而言，我再次尝试将其分开。
But no, I do not oppose the Christian church.
但不，我不反对基督教会。
Have you ever celebrated Christmas, the holiday of the Christian church?
你庆祝过基督教会的圣诞节圣诞节吗？
Let's put it this way.
让我们这样说吧。
I was educated at a Catholic church, married in a Lutheran church, baptized in a Wesleyan church.
我在天主教堂接受教育，在路德教会结婚，在卫斯理教会受洗。
So yes, I consider myself a Christian.
所以是的，我认为自己是基督徒。
Thanks to pressure from the Feds, Paul Williams lost.
由于美联储的压力，保罗·威廉姆斯输了。
There will be prayer services in the federally funded building.
联邦资助的大楼将举行祈祷活动。
Though in an ironically tidy little ending to the story, the man who called him anti-Christian and anti-spiritual, Major David Taube of the Salvation Army, was recently caught emailing a pornographic picture of himself to somebody who claimed to be a 14-year-old boy.
尽管故事的结局很讽刺，但这个称他为反基督教和反精神的人，救世军的大卫·陶布少校，最近被发现通过电子邮件向一个自称是 14 岁男孩的人发送了一张自己的色情照片。
But it was, in fact, a Florida police detective.
但事实上，他是佛罗里达州的一名警探。
You know, I don't even know if I should be bringing that up.
你知道，我什至不知道我是否应该提出这个问题。
But once people start calling each other anti-Christian, once it's all about your personal morality, it's hard not to.
但一旦人们开始互相称呼对方为反基督教徒，一旦一切都关乎你的个人道德，你就很难不这么做了。
This is why the Founding Fathers specify in the Constitution that you don't have to have a particular religion to serve in public office.
这就是为什么开国元勋在宪法中明确规定，担任公职不必有特定的宗教信仰。
They knew that it just gets ugly when you start dragging everybody's faith into these public debates, and unnecessary.
他们知道，当你开始将每个人的信仰拖入这些公开辩论时，事情就会变得丑陋，而且没有必要。
And it's happening a lot.
而且这样的事情经常发生。
In Georgia, a science teacher who won the Presidential Award for Excellence in science education, whose taught for 28 years-- and we're asked that we not use her name-- tells this story.
在佐治亚州，一位荣获科学教育卓越总统奖、教书 28 年的科学老师——我们被要求不要使用她的名字——讲述了这个故事。
Under Georgia state guidelines, she is required to teach evolution, and she's not allowed to teach creationism.
根据佐治亚州的指导方针，她必须教授进化论，但不允许她教授神创论。
So she did what the rule said, and some parents complained.
于是她就按照规定做了，引起了一些家长的抱怨。
And then a fellow teacher ratted her out, informed the school's administration that evolution was being taught within their walls.
然后一位老师同事出卖了她，并通知学校管理部门，进化论正在他们的围墙内教授。
Because although the rules say that they're supposed to teach evolution, that doesn't necessarily mean the school followed the rules.
因为虽然规则说他们应该教授进化论，但这并不一定意味着学校遵守规则。
Before Christmas, I was called into the principal's office.
圣诞节前夕，我被叫到校长办公室。
And the question was, are you teaching evolution as a fact?
问题是，你是否将进化论作为一个事实来教授？
And of course, I'm saying yes.
当然，我说是的。
Right.
正确的。
Because in a way, you're in a very cut and dry situation.
因为在某种程度上，你正处于一个非常困难的境地。
There are state standards.
有国家标准。
You're supposed to teach them.
你应该教他们。
And you're just teaching them.
而你只是在教他们。
Well, you'd think that would be cut and dry, wouldn't you?
好吧，你会认为那会被切割和干燥，不是吗？
Over the next few months, she was called into the principal's office two more times.
接下来的几个月里，她又两次被叫到校长办公室。
At one meeting, the school superintendent was there to tell her that he didn't believe in evolution and that back when he taught biology, he taught evolution and creationism side by side.
在一次会议上，学校负责人在那里告诉她，他不相信进化论，当他教授生物学时，他同时教授进化论和神创论。
She told him that now, that was actually illegal.
她告诉他，现在这实际上是非法的。
Things got even more strange for her when she was called in for a meeting with her incoming principal about evolution.
当她被叫去与即将上任的校长开会讨论进化论时，事情变得更加奇怪。
We sat down, closed the door.
我们坐下来，关上门。
And we got into a discussion of, he wanted me to know where he was coming from.
我们进行了讨论，他想让我知道他来自哪里。
And so he reached around off of his bookshelf and pulled a Bible off his bookshelf.
于是他从书架上伸出手，从书架上拿出一本《圣经》。
And he said, I believe everything in this Bible.
他说，我相信这本圣经中的一切。
Do you believe everything in this Bible?
你相信这本圣经中的一切吗？
And he would not let it go.
他不会放过它。
He just wouldn't let it drop.
他就是不肯让它落下。
He says, I believe in every single thing in this Bible.
他说，我相信这本圣经中的每一件事。
And do you believe in everything in this Bible?
你相信这本圣经中的一切吗？
And I said, yes, I do, but that's not the issue.
我说，是的，我愿意，但这不是问题。
That was the first time.
那是第一次。
That was the first time?
那是第一次吗？
There was more than one time?
有不止一次吗？
Yeah.
是的。
The next time, we were in the cafeteria.
第二次，我们在自助餐厅。
And he said, I can accept a lot of things about evolution.
他说，关于进化论，我可以接受很多事情。
But if the scientists ever get to the point where they say God's not involved, I can't accept that.
但如果科学家们说上帝没有参与其中，我就无法接受。
I want you to say that.
我想让你这么说。
I said, this just doesn't feel right.
我说，这感觉不太对劲。
You shouldn't be asking me these kinds of questions.
你不应该问我这些问题。
He said, no. It's just the two of us here.
他说，不。这里只有我们两个人。
It's like we're just two people talking.
就好像我们只是两个人在说话。
If they ever get to the point where the scientists say that God's not involved, I can't accept that.
如果他们真的发展到科学家说上帝没有参与的地步，我就无法接受。
I want you to say that.
我想让你这么说。
He wanted me to repeat it after him.
他要我跟着他重复一遍。
It felt like I was forced to take an oath.
感觉就像我被迫宣誓一样。
It felt like I was forced to declare my religion.
感觉就像我被迫宣布我的宗教信仰。
Did you ever think of, like, what year is this that I'm having to fight this?
你有没有想过，比如，今年是哪一年我必须与之抗争？
I know, I know.
我知道，我知道。
And it felt like I was a caged animal.
感觉就像我是一只笼中的动物。
Much like I was cornered.
就像我被逼到了墙角一样。
Lots of teachers don't want this kind of trouble.
很多老师不希望出现这样的麻烦。
And people in science education say that in schools all over the country, evolution is mandated, but not being taught.
从事科学教育的人士表示，全国各地的学校都强制要求教授进化论，但没有教授进化论。
Just as abortion is legal, but hard to find in many places.
正如堕胎是合法的，但在许多地方很难找到。
What's happening in this school-- what's happening all over the place actually-- is not really a debate.
这所学校里发生的事情——实际上到处都在发生的事情——并不是真正的辩论。
It's people acting from two totally different assumptions.
人们根据两种完全不同的假设行事。
One group thinking that religion has no place in public life, the other thinking that, of course, it does.
一组人认为宗教在公共生活中没有一席之地，另一组人则认为宗教当然在公共生活中占有一席之地。
In fact, it needs to be there more.
事实上，它还需要更多。
And people who want the separation of church and state these days-- people who thought these issues were settled-- are finding they're anything but.
如今，那些希望政教分离的人们——那些认为这些问题已经解决的人们——却发现事实并非如此。
Christian activists are fighting for friendly judges to be appointed to the bench so that they can get court decisions to swing their way on school prayer, and sex ed, and the Bible in school, and Roe versus Wade.
基督教积极分子正在争取任命友好的法官担任法官，以便他们能够让法院做出在学校祈祷、性教育、学校圣经以及罗伊与韦德案等问题上摇摆不定的裁决。
The president has come out and said that he will not appoint judges who don't think that our rights come to us from God.
总统出面表示，他不会任命那些不认为我们的权利来自上帝的法官。
He said this even though the Constitution explicitly forbids a religious test to hold a public office like a judgeship.
尽管宪法明确禁止通过宗教考试担任法官等公职，但他还是这么说。
That's Article Six.
这就是第六条。
You can check that yourself.
你可以自己检查一下。
In April, House Majority Leader Tom DeLay said that the judiciary has imposed, quote, "a separation of church and state that's nowhere in the Constitution."
4 月，众议院多数党领袖汤姆·迪雷 (Tom DeLay) 表示，司法部门强行实行“宪法中没有规定的政教分离”。
I read that quote.
我读过那句话。
And when I first read it, I had this reaction I think a lot of people might have, which is, isn't the separation of church and state in there somewhere?
当我第一次读到它时，我想很多人可能会有这样的反应，那就是，教会和国家的分离不是在某个地方吗？
Isn't that actually one of the ideas that our country is founded on?
这难道不是我们国家立国的理念之一吗？
Chances are that you are like me, and you haven't actually read the Constitution since high school.
很可能你和我一样，从高中起就没有真正读过宪法。
So today, to clarify this, we have answers.
所以今天，为了澄清这一点，我们有答案。
Is there supposed to be a separation of church and state in our country?
我们国家应该实行政教分离吗？
And if so, why do so many Americans think otherwise?
如果是这样，为什么还有那么多美国人不这么认为呢？
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life, distributed by Public Radio International.
这是来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Our program today, Godless America.
我们今天的节目是《无神美国》。
Act One of our show, a quick summary of the advances that fundamentalist Christians are making in turning their values into national policy.
我们节目的第一幕，快速总结了原教旨主义基督徒在将价值观转化为国家政策方面所取得的进展。
Act Two, why they believe the founders didn't intend a separation of church and state in the Constitution as we normally understand it, and why.
第二幕，为什么他们认为创始人并没有像我们通常理解的那样在宪法中打算实现政教分离，以及原因。
Well, they're probably wrong about that.
嗯，他们的想法可能是错的。
Act Three, in this very Christian country, in this very Christian moment in our history, Julia Sweeney takes on the Bible.
第三幕，在这个非常基督教的国家，在我们历史上这个非常基督教的时刻，朱莉娅·斯威尼（Julia Sweeney）接受了圣经。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, The Substance of Things Hoped For In Government.
第一幕，政府所希望的事情的实质。
OK.
好的。
So you've heard about the stem cell fight already, and you've heard about the filibuster fight, which was really about judicial appointments.
所以你已经听说过干细胞斗争，也听说过阻挠斗争，这实际上是关于司法任命的。
And you've heard about how gay marriage was outlawed in 13 states in 2004.
您也听说过 2004 年同性婚姻在 13 个州被取缔。
And you've heard about the pending decisions on evolution in schools in Kansas and Dover, Pennsylvania.
你也听说过堪萨斯州和宾夕法尼亚州多佛市的学校即将做出的有关进化论的决定。
But there's a lot more going on than that.
但还有更多事情发生。
First stop on our tour of Christian activists trying to push the country toward more Biblical values, Virginia, where a former state trooper turned legislator named Bill Carrico introduced an amendment to the Virginia Constitution to, quote, "secure further the people's right to acknowledge God," to permit prayer, and the recognition of, quote, "religious beliefs, heritage, and traditions on public property, including public schools."
我们的基督教积极分子之行的第一站是弗吉尼亚州，他们试图推动国家走向更加符合圣经的价值观。前州警、后来成为立法者的比尔·卡里科(Bill Carrico)提出了弗吉尼亚宪法修正案，“进一步确保人民承认上帝的权利”，允许祈祷，并承认“公共财产上的宗教信仰、遗产和传统，包括公立学校”。
Now, of course, it's already legal for a child to pray in a public school, or to read a Bible, or to acknowledge their faith.
当然，现在孩子在公立学校祈祷、阅读圣经或承认自己的信仰已经是合法的。
The Supreme Court saw to that years ago.
最高法院几年前就做到了这一点。
But Bill Carrico says that people do not understand these rights.
但比尔·卡里科表示，人们并不了解这些权利。
And so a lot of these cases actually end up in court, which is why, he says, they should amend the state constitution to make the rules perfectly clear.
因此，很多此类案件实际上最终都上了法庭，这就是为什么，他说，他们应该修改州宪法，使规则完全明确。
Basically, it was to protect those Christians from being persecuted the way they're being persecuted today just because they are the majority faith.
基本上，这是为了保护那些基督徒免遭像今天这样的迫害，仅仅因为他们是大多数信仰。
He got interested in the issue when, as a state trooper talking to a high school class before the prom, he mentioned David and Goliath.
当他作为一名州警在舞会前对高中班级讲话时提到大卫和歌利亚时，他对这个问题产生了兴趣。
And parents complained.
还有家长抱怨。
He says this happens all the time.
他说这种情况经常发生。
I've got a situation that occurred in Isle of Wight county, where a young girl was looking forward to her high school graduation and having the opportunity to sing.
我在怀特岛县遇到过这样的情况，一个年轻女孩期待着高中毕业并有机会唱歌。
But when she chose the song that she wanted to sing at her graduation, just because it had the mere reference to God in the song, she was removed from the program.
但当她选择毕业典礼上要唱的歌曲时，仅仅因为歌曲中只提到了上帝，她就被从节目中除名了。
It was a Celine Dion song, "The Prayer." And the school officials said, you're crossing the line between separation of church and state, and you're not going to sing that song.
这是席琳·迪翁的歌曲《祈祷》。学校官员说，你正在跨越政教分离的界限，你不会唱那首歌。
Yeah.
是的。
So there's a kind of political correctness.
所以有一种政治正确性。
Yes.
是的。
And you see, this country was founded upon those beliefs.
你看，这个国家就是建立在这些信念之上的。
Our laws are written after Biblical laws.
我们的法律是根据圣经法律制定的。
And also, the wall of separation of church and state is nowhere in the Constitution.
而且，宪法中也没有规定政教分离的墙。
And all it's done is give the secular world, who doesn't profess to believe in anything, the right to say, just because I don't want to hear it, you can't say it.
而它所做的一切，就是给了那些不自称相信任何东西的世俗世界，有说话的权利，只是因为我不想听，你就不能说。
Next up on our tour, Ohio.
我们的下一站是俄亥俄州。
Pastor Russell Johnson of the Fairfield Christian Church runs something called the Ohio Restoration Project, which wants to sign up 2,000 fundamentalist Baptist and Catholic "patriot pastors" in Ohio's 88 counties, register hundreds of thousands of Christian voters, take control of local Republican groups, and elect a conservative Republican named Kenneth Blackwell to the governor's office in 2006.
费尔菲尔德基督教会的拉塞尔·约翰逊牧师开展了一项名为“俄亥俄复兴计划”的项目，该计划希望在俄亥俄州 88 个县签约 2000 名原教旨主义浸信会和天主教“爱国牧师”，登记数十万基督教选民，控制当地共和党团体，并选举一位名叫肯尼思·布莱克威尔 (Kenneth Blackwell) 的保守派共和党人于 2006 年担任州长。
Pastor Johnson says he's doing pretty well for his goals.
约翰逊牧师说他在实现目标方面做得很好。
600 pastors signed up so far.
目前已有600名牧师报名。
He expects to be at 1,000 by Labor Day.
他预计到劳动节时人数将达到 1,000。
He says he is simply restoring Ohio to the Founding Fathers' original Christian values.
他说他只是让俄亥俄州恢复了开国元勋最初的基督教价值观。
And yes, they came here to advance the Christian faith.
是的，他们来这里是为了弘扬基督教信仰。
The sense of separation of church from the state has been a secular jihad that has taken place primarily from the courts.
教会与国家分离的感觉是一场主要来自法庭的世俗圣战。
I think, for instance, the discrimination against Christians defies explanation.
例如，我认为对基督徒的歧视是无法解释的。
But still, 84% of Americans identify themselves as Christian.
但仍然有 84% 的美国人认为自己是基督徒。
6 out of 10 Americans say religion is very important in their lives.
十分之六的美国人表示宗教在他们的生活中非常重要。
Only 16% of Americans say religion isn't important.
只有 16% 的美国人认为宗教并不重要。
Christians have Christmas off.
基督徒圣诞节放假。
It's sanctioned by the state.
这是国家批准的。
There's no mail service on Sunday.
周日没有邮件服务。
Attendance at evangelical churches is going up.
福音派教堂的出席率正在上升。
Like--
就像——
Now, I appreciate you did a good thing right there, Ira.
现在，我很感激你做了一件好事，艾拉。
I guess I don't-- where is the persecution of Christians?
我想我不明白——对基督徒的迫害在哪里？
Let me give you a track record on this if I might.
如果可以的话，让我给你一份这方面的记录。
From our standpoint, OK?
从我们的角度来看，好吗？
All right.
好的。
1962, after 175 years of praying in the classroom, prayer is declared to be somehow an offense.
1962 年，在教室里祈祷 175 年之后，祈祷在某种程度上被宣布为一种冒犯。
1963, don't read the Bible.
1963年，不要读圣经。
You go on to where they take the Ten Commandments off the walls in Kentucky in '80.
您继续前往 80 年代肯塔基州墙上的十诫。
In fact, Roe v.
事实上，罗诉。
Wade.
韦德。
So we now have these consistent messages from the courts.
所以我们现在从法院得到了这些一致的信息。
Never happens at the legislative-- never happens at the level of where people will get a vote.
在立法机构中永远不会发生这种情况，在人们投票的层面上也永远不会发生这种情况。
And I think that finally, the Christian community has been pushed to the threshold and said, enough is enough.
我认为，最终，基督教界已经被推到了门槛，并说，够了。
Do you believe that we can be a moral nation without being Christian?
你相信我们可以成为一个有道德的国家而不是基督徒吗？
Long-term morality without God is a myth.
长期没有上帝的道德是一个神话。
And so if there's a person who believes any of the things that you don't believe-- who believes that a woman should have a right to an abortion, or who believes that gay men and gay women should be allowed to marry-- do you think that the reason that shouldn't be the law in the United States is because we're supposed to be a Christian nation?
因此，如果有人相信任何你不相信的事情——他认为女性应该有堕胎的权利，或者认为男同性恋和女同性恋应该被允许结婚——你认为这不应该成为美国法律的原因是因为我们应该是一个基督教国家吗？
No, I candidly-- I don't have a problem with people disagreeing.
不，坦白说，我对人们的不同意见没有意见。
What I have a problem with is when I have a minority trying to dictate to the supermajority.
我遇到的问题是少数人试图对绝大多数人发号施令。
In an idea, for instance, like because there's one child in the school that doesn't want us to read the Gospels, the life of Christ.
例如，在一个想法中，就像因为学校里有一个孩子不希望我们阅读福音书、基督的生平。
One child should not keep the rest of the school from having the privilege of discovering a rich history that we have.
一个孩子不应该阻止学校其他成员有幸发现我们丰富的历史。
This is something you hear a lot from Christian activists.
这是你从基督教活动家那里经常听到的。
They are the majority.
他们是大多数。
And they're turning out their voters.
他们正在投票选出他们的选民。
Why shouldn't they get their way?
为什么他们不应该随心所欲呢？
That's what democracy is all about.
这就是民主的意义所在。
If most Americans think that it would be OK to have school prayer or teach creationism alongside evolution, well, that's our system in this country.
如果大多数美国人认为学校祈祷或教授神创论和进化论是可以的，那么，这就是我们这个国家的制度。
The 2004 elections emboldened the religious right.
2004年的选举增强了宗教右翼的胆量。
They are taking credit for the reelection of President Bush and the increased Republican majority in the Senate and the House.
他们因布什总统的连任以及共和党在参众两院的多数席位增加而受到赞扬。
Now they're asking, well, what do we get in return?
现在他们问，我们能得到什么回报？
This is Rob Boston, a man with a rather unfortunate name to any of us who have watched Survivor .
这是罗布·波士顿，对于我们这些看过《幸存者》的人来说，他的名字相当不幸。
But that's another story.
但那是另一个故事了。
He's been monitoring these sorts of things at Americans United for Separation of Church and State for two decades, and he says that he has never seen Christian conservatives making such headway as they are now.
二十年来，他一直在美国政教分离联盟关注这类事情，他说他从未见过基督教保守派取得像现在这样的进展。
Some of the bills now before Congress, the House of Worship Free Speech Act, which would make it legal to endorse a candidate from the pulpit and still hold onto your church's tax-exempt status.
目前正在国会审议的一些法案包括《礼拜堂言论自由法案》，该法案将使在讲坛上支持候选人的同时仍然保留教会的免税地位变得合法。
The Constitution Restoration Act, which would try to bypass the courts on things like the display of the Ten Commandments in public buildings by making it illegal for the courts to rule against any government official or body whose actions acknowledge, quote, "God as the source of life, liberty, or government." There's the Workplace Religious Freedom Act, which counts among its cosponsors Senators John Kerry and Hillary Clinton.
《宪法恢复法案》试图在诸如在公共建筑中展示十诫之类的问题上绕过法院，规定法院对任何承认、引用“上帝是生命、自由或政府之源”的政府官员或机构的裁决是非法的。还有《工作场所宗教自由法案》，该法案的共同发起者包括参议员约翰·克里和希拉里·克林顿。
This law would force employers to accommodate religious practices and beliefs in the workplace as much as possible.
该法律将迫使雇主尽可能适应工作场所的宗教习俗和信仰。
This, by the way, is coming at a time when a handful of pharmacists around the country have refused to fill birth control prescriptions on moral grounds.
顺便说一句，这是在全国各地的少数药剂师出于道德原因拒绝开避孕药处方之际发生的。
And Senator Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania has talked about introducing a federal Conscience Law which would specifically permit that.
宾夕法尼亚州参议员里克·桑托勒姆（Rick Santorum）谈到了引入一项联邦良心法，明确允许这样做。
Four states already have conscience laws like this, Arkansas, Georgia, Mississippi, and South Dakota.
阿肯色州、佐治亚州、密西西比州和南达科他州这四个州已经制定了类似的良心法。
Again, Rob Boston.
又是罗布·波士顿。
This is an interesting example of where, for many people, these church-state issues seem theoretical.
这是一个有趣的例子，对许多人来说，这些教会与国家的问题似乎是理论上的。
They seem abstract.
它们看起来很抽象。
Whether the Ten Commandments monument is inside the courthouse or outside, whether the Christmas creche is in front of the town green, and who put it up, and how long it's there.
无论十诫纪念碑是在法院内部还是外部，圣诞托儿所是否在城镇绿地前，以及是谁竖起的，以及它在那里放置了多长时间。
And a lot of people would just throw their hands up and say, you know what?
很多人会举手说，你知道吗？
I really don't care.
我真的不在乎。
But when you look at an issue like, can a woman get her birth control pills because of someone's religious bias and religious beliefs, that's an entirely different thing.
但当你考虑这样的问题时，女性是否可以因为某人的宗教偏见和宗教信仰而获得避孕药，那就完全是另一回事了。
Do you think a law like this could pass?
您认为这样的法律可以通过吗？
Given the current state of Congress and the heavy influence of the religious right, I think some of these measures that seem really extreme and really out there do have a chance of passing.
考虑到国会目前的状况和宗教右翼的巨大影响，我认为其中一些看起来非常极端、确实存在的措施确实有机会获得通过。
And then, of course, we're left with the courts to try to overturn them, and the courts are becoming more conservative by the day as well.
然后，当然，我们只剩下法院来试图推翻它们，而法院也日益变得更加保守。
At the heart of everything for the Christian activists, as you've probably gathered, is this idea that America has gotten away from what it was supposed to be.
正如你可能已经了解到的那样，对于基督教积极分子来说，一切的核心是美国已经偏离了它应有的样子。
That religious values are supposed to be at the center of everything in our country.
宗教价值观应该是我们国家一切事物的中心。
And now there's a cottage industry of books and DVDs and other materials telling a history of our country this way.
现在出现了一个家庭手工业，生产书籍、DVD 和其他材料，以这种方式讲述我们国家的历史。
What was the foundation upon which our Founding Fathers established this great nation?
我们的开国元勋建立这个伟大国家的基础是什么？
According to John Adams, the foundation was Christianity.
根据约翰·亚当斯的说法，基础是基督教。
This is from a CD put out by Wallbuilders, which does a lot of this stuff.
这是来自 Wallbuilders 发行的一张 CD，该公司做了很多这样的事情。
Wallbuilders.com, by the way.
顺便说一句，Wallbuilders.com。
The narrator is David Barton, the founder of Wallbuilders, who declined our request for an interview, but who lays out his case in the materials that he sells.
叙述者是 Wallbuilders 的创始人大卫·巴顿 (David Barton)，他拒绝了我们的采访请求，但在他出售的材料中阐述了他的案例。
The evidence that our founders did not want a separation of church and state, in Barton's materials, and whenever everybody else seems to talk about it, comes down to this.
在巴顿的材料中，以及每当其他人似乎在谈论它时，我们的创始人不希望教会与国家分离的证据都归结为这一点。
The founders were believers who often talked about the importance of God and morality in public life.
创始人都是信徒，他们经常谈论上帝和道德在公共生活中的重要性。
And Barton and others point out that the phrase "separation of church and state" is not actually in the Constitution.
而巴顿等人指出，“政教分离”一词实际上并没有出现在宪法中。
It comes from a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote in 1802, which is true.
它出自托马斯·杰斐逊 (Thomas Jefferson) 1802 年写的一封信，这是真实的。
And then it just comes down to the language of the First Amendment.
然后就归结为第一修正案的语言。
That's the amendment dealing with religion.
这是涉及宗教的修正案。
Here's David Barton.
请听大卫·巴顿的报道。
Although the phrase "separation of church and state" is well known and commonly associated with the First Amendment, the words "separation," "church," or "state," are not only not found in the First Amendment, they're found in no founding document.
尽管“政教分离”一词众所周知，并且通常与第一修正案联系在一起，但“分离”、“教会”或“国家”等词不仅没有出现在第一修正案中，而且也没有出现在任何建国文件中。
Still, many, after learning the phrase is not present, they frequently ask, well, even though the words aren't there, isn't that what the First Amendment really means?
尽管如此，许多人在得知这个短语不存在后，他们经常会问，好吧，即使这个词不存在，这不是第一修正案的真正含义吗？
Well, according to the Founding Fathers and their discussions of the First Amendment, which are recorded in the Congressional Records, all they wanted to preclude was what they had experienced in Great Britain.
嗯，根据国会记录中记录的开国元勋们及其对第一修正案的讨论，他们想要排除的只是他们在英国所经历的事情。
They did not want the establishment by the federal government of one single denomination in exclusion of all others, whether that would be Catholic or Anglican or any other denomination.
他们不希望联邦政府建立一个单一的教派而排斥所有其他教派，无论是天主教、英国圣公会还是任何其他教派。
Some of these claims I have to be sympathetic with.
其中一些说法我不得不表示同情。
We meet one of David Barton's biggest opponents when it comes to history, Isaac Kramnick, a professor at Cornell who co-wrote a well-known constitutional history called The Godless Constitution with R.
我们遇到了大卫·巴顿在历史方面最大的反对者之一——康奈尔大学教授艾萨克·克拉姆尼克，他与 R·巴顿共同撰写了一部著名的宪法史，名为《无神宪法》。
Laurence Moore.
劳伦斯·摩尔.
And here is the first surprise about Kramnick.
这是克拉姆尼克的第一个惊喜。
He agrees with Christian activists that there is far too much political correctness about church and state issues.
他同意基督教活动家的观点，即关于教会和国家问题存在太多的政治正确性。
He thinks people get hung up on this stuff too much of the time, that, of course, a kid should be allowed to sing a Celine Dion song mentioning God at a high school graduation.
他认为人们太多时候沉迷于这些东西，当然，应该允许孩子在高中毕业典礼上唱席琳·迪翁的歌曲，其中提到上帝。
And Professor Kramnick says that Barton's right on other scores too.
克拉姆尼克教授说巴顿在其他方面也是正确的。
Barton is correct in that most of the founders were believers.
巴顿是正确的，大多数创始人都是信徒。
Many liberals get very upset when people like David Barton put out a list of all the quotes from the Founding Fathers about God, because they would like to sort of sweep them away.
当像大卫·巴顿这样的人列出开国元勋们关于上帝的所有名言时，许多自由主义者会感到非常沮丧，因为他们想把这些名言一扫而光。
That the Founding Fathers, Jefferson included, never really spoke about God, and that God was unimportant to them.
包括杰斐逊在内的开国元勋们从未真正谈论过上帝，上帝对他们来说并不重要。
That's not right.
那是不对的。
It makes it all the more profound that these people were indeed, many of them, believers.
更深刻的是，这些人中的许多人确实是信徒。
They had no problem with a religious nation, a religious people.
他们对宗教国家、宗教人民没有任何问题。
But they wanted a secular government.
但他们想要一个世俗政府。
And this, of course, was a great break from the past.
当然，这与过去是一个巨大的突破。
And that, in fact, is the incredible achievement of America.
事实上，这就是美国令人难以置信的成就。
Kramnick says the founders wanted to keep religion out of government completely because they knew what happened in 16th century Europe, when millions of Protestants and Catholics killed each other in religious wars.
克拉姆尼克说，创始人希望将宗教完全排除在政府之外，因为他们知道 16 世纪欧洲发生的事情，当时数百万新教徒和天主教徒在宗教战争中互相残杀。
In the wake of that, the philosopher John Locke theorized about a kind of government that could be completely secular.
随后，哲学家约翰·洛克提出了一种可以完全世俗化的政府的理论。
Take no sides in religion at all.
在宗教上完全不偏袒任何一方。
And there's lots of documentation showing that Locke and his vision of government had a huge influence on the drafters of the Constitution.
有大量文件表明，洛克和他的政府愿景对宪法起草者产生了巨大影响。
And sure, says Kramnick.
克拉姆尼克说，当然。
Barton's right again.
巴顿又说对了。
The Constitution never explicitly says the phrase "separation of church and state."
宪法从未明确提及“政教分离”这一短语。
That's true.
这是真的。
So the argument about it not being in the Constitution is absolutely correct.
所以说它不写入宪法的说法是完全正确的。
It's not in the Constitution.
这不在宪法中。
Nor, of course, is God, or religion, or Protestantism, or the furthering of any faith in the Constitution either.
当然，上帝、宗教、新教或对宪法的任何信仰的进一步发展也都不是。
As you write in your book, they mention a creator in the Declaration of Independence, they mention a creator in the Articles of Confederation.
正如您在书中所写的那样，他们在《独立宣言》中提到了一位创造者，在《联邦条例》中提到了一位创造者。
In many state constitutions, they mention a creator.
在许多州宪法中，他们都提到了创造者。
But here, they consciously do not mention a creator at all.
但在这里，他们有意识地根本不提及创造者。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
And then, to add insult to injury, Article Six of the Constitution says, there shall be no religious test for public office.
更雪上加霜的是，宪法第六条规定，担任公职不得进行宗教考试。
And that created a firestorm around the country.
这在全国范围内引起了轩然大波。
Now you should explain what a religious test is.
现在你应该解释什么是宗教测试。
That means--
这意味着——
A religious test was that in 11 of the 13 states, in their constitutions, in 1787, said you could only hold public office if you were Protestant.
一项宗教考验是，1787 年，13 个州中的 11 个州在宪法中规定，只有信奉新教的人才能担任公职。
What happened after September 1787 in Philadelphia with the signing of the Constitution was that it wouldn't go into effect until 9 of the 13 states ratified it.
1787 年 9 月在费城签署宪法后发生的事情是，直到 13 个州中的 9 个州批准后，宪法才会生效。
Americans have no idea how close the Constitution came to being not ratified.
美国人不知道宪法差点就没有获得批准。
How in these state ratifying conventions, the vote would be 30 to 27, something of that sort.
在这些州批准公约中，投票结果是 30 比 27，类似的情况。
And one of the lightning rod areas of debate was, in fact, about religion, was the omission of any religious purpose from the Constitution.
事实上，争论的避雷针领域之一是关于宗教的，即宪法中遗漏了任何宗教目的。
No reference to God, no reference to Christ.
没有提到上帝，没有提到基督。
Now, in each of these state conventions, for the next year, there was a huge cry that the Constitution be changed to eliminate the no religious test clause.
现在，在明年的每一次州大会上，都强烈要求修改宪法以取消无宗教测试条款。
With claims like it'll allow a Papist, a Mohammedan, an infidel, a Jew to hold public office.
据称，它将允许天主教徒、伊斯兰教徒、异教徒、犹太人担任公职。
The proponents of the Constitution said no. And in fact, each effort in each of the states was turned down, which was read at the time as a clear announcement that government is a secular function and has no religious purpose.
宪法的支持者说不。事实上，每个州的每一项努力都被拒绝了，这在当时被解读为明确宣布政府是一个世俗职能，没有宗教目的。
And this is how we know that despite the fact that there's nothing in the Constitution about formally saying separation of church and state, we know what their attitudes were to religion and government.
这就是我们如何知道，尽管宪法中没有任何关于正式规定政教分离的内容，但我们知道他们对宗教和政府的态度。
Then there were a series of fights over the separation of church and state, including a 20-year battle starting in the early 19th century over whether US post offices should be closed on Sundays so that work wouldn't happen on the Christian Sabbath.
随后出现了一系列关于政教分离的争论，其中包括从 19 世纪初开始的一场长达 20 年的争论，争论的焦点是美国邮局是否应该在周日关闭，以便在基督教安息日停止工作。
Ministers gathered names on petitions.
部长们在请愿书上收集了名字。
They took it to Congress.
他们把它提交给国会。
And Congress said no. Congress said no. A staunch Baptist was the head of the committee that recommended to Congress that this would be an unconstitutional interference of Congress in religious matters.
国会拒绝了。国会说不。一位坚定的浸信会教徒是该委员会的主席，他向国会建议，这将是国会对宗教事务的违宪干涉。
And then perhaps the most dramatic example occurs during the Civil War, when, as unbelievable as it seems, many Protestant ministers convened conventions to plead to amend the Constitution to put Jesus Christ and Christian government into the preamble to the Constitution.
然后，也许最戏剧性的例子发生在内战期间，当时，尽管看起来令人难以置信，许多新教牧师召开会议，恳求修改宪法，将耶稣基督和基督教政府纳入宪法序言。
And their argument, you write, is basically, the reason why we got into this mess and now we're at war is because when we wrote the Constitution, God wasn't in the Constitution, and now God is basically punishing us for that.
你写的，他们的论点基本上是，我们之所以陷入困境，现在我们陷入战争，是因为当我们编写宪法时，上帝并不在宪法中，而现在上帝基本上正在为此惩罚我们。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
And therefore, they proposed the Christian amendment which would change the preamble of the Constitution to, "We the people of the United States, humbly acknowledging Almighty God as the source of all authority and power in civil government, the Lord Jesus Christ as the governor among the nations, and his revealed will as a supreme authority, in order to constitute a Christian government, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
因此，他们提出了基督教修正案，将宪法序言改为：“我们美国人民，谦卑地承认全能的上帝是公民政府中一切权威和力量的源泉，承认主耶稣基督是万国的统治者，承认他作为最高权威的启示意志，为了组建一个基督教政府，为美利坚合众国制定和制定了这部宪法。”
Now, how'd they do with that?
现在，他们怎么办？
You write that they did meet with President Lincoln.
你写道他们确实会见了林肯总统。
They met with President Lincoln, who would have nothing to do with it.
他们会见了林肯总统，但林肯总统与此事无关。
There was criticism from a large number of religious groups in the country.
此举遭到国内众多宗教团体的批评。
And it never got out of committee.
而且它从未离开过委员会。
Now just to put the final footnote to that story, five more times there would be a Christian amendment put before Congress, and every one of them failed.
现在，只是为这个故事做最后的脚注，之后又五次向国会提交基督教修正案，但每一次都失败了。
1874, 1894, 1910, 1947, and 1954.
1874 年、1894 年、1910 年、1947 年和 1954 年。
And there was a kind of booby prize given in 1863 when this failed.
当这一计划失败时，1863 年颁发了一种诱杀奖。
And that booby prize was, of course, that "In God We Trust" was put on our money.
当然，这个诡异的奖品就是“我们相信上帝”。
A somewhat less sacred part of our tradition than the Constitution.
我们传统中的一个部分不如宪法那么神圣。
But what's fascinating is that Barton and DeLay and Falwell and Ralph Reed have a story.
但令人着迷的是巴顿、迪雷、福尔韦尔和拉尔夫·里德有一个故事。
And their story goes like this.
他们的故事是这样的。
The founders set up a Christian government which persisted until the 1960s.
创始人建立了一个基督教政府，并一直持续到 20 世纪 60 年代。
And then in the 1960s, a sort of subversive cabal of secularists, liberals, eroded and subverted this government which was supposedly to serve God's purpose.
然后在 20 世纪 60 年代，一种由世俗主义者、自由主义者组成的颠覆性阴谋集团侵蚀并颠覆了这个本应服务于上帝目的的政府。
In fact, the story, ironically, is just the opposite, which is the Constitution-- 1787 until the 1950s, the David Bartons and the Tom DeLays of the country were angry that the Constitution was secular, calling it a godless Constitution.
事实上，讽刺的是，故事恰恰相反，这就是宪法——1787年到1950年代，这个国家的大卫·巴顿家族和汤姆·迪莱斯家族对宪法的世俗性感到愤怒，称其为无神论宪法。
And then in the 1950s, it's just the opposite.
而到了 20 世纪 50 年代，情况恰恰相反。
The secular foundation of government is, in fact, eroded because of the Cold War.
事实上，政府的世俗基础因冷战而受到侵蚀。
In the Cold War, America came to define itself as godly people, of course, fighting godless, atheistic Communism.
在冷战期间，美国逐渐将自己定义为虔诚的人民，当然，它与无神论、无神论的共产主义作斗争。
So it's in the 1950s that you get the first presidential prayer breakfasts.
因此，在 20 世纪 50 年代，人们第一次享受总统祈祷早餐。
You get the first congressional prayer rooms.
你会得到第一个国会祈祷室。
And you get Eisenhower saying, we are a nation of believers.
艾森豪威尔说，我们是一个有信仰的国家。
And perhaps even more important, the insertion of God into the Pledge of Allegiance.
也许更重要的是，将上帝纳入效忠誓言中。
Isaac Kramnick, coauthor of the book The Godless Constitution.
艾萨克·克拉姆尼克（Isaac Kramnick）是《无神宪法》一书的合著者。
The book is being reissued in August with a new chapter about the Bush presidency.
该书将于八月重新发行，其中新增一章介绍布什总统任期。
Coming up, it's the old story.
话又说回来了，又是老故事了。
Girl loves God.
女孩爱上帝。
Girl reads Bible.
女孩读圣经。
Girl's not so sure anymore how she feels about God.
女孩不再那么确定她对上帝的感觉如何。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International when our program continues.
一分钟后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life .
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose a theme, bring you a variety of different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，每周我们的节目都会选择一个主题，为您带来有关该主题的各种不同类型的故事。
Today's program, Godless America.
今天的节目是《无神美国》。
And we've arrived at Act Two of our program.
我们已经进入了计划的第二幕。
Act Two, God Said, Huh?
第二幕，神说，嗯？
Religious people don't see it this way, but I would argue that God has gotten a lot of play in the mass media lately.
宗教人士不这么认为，但我认为上帝最近在大众媒体中得到了很多关注。
There was that saturation coverage of the death of the pope and the picking of the new pope.
对教皇之死和新教皇挑选的报道已经饱和。
There are continual attempts by Hollywood these days, in the post-Mel Gibson environment, to do various God-related projects.
如今，在后梅尔·吉布森的环境下，好莱坞不断尝试制作各种与上帝相关的项目。
There's Joan of Arcadia and Seventh Heaven and Revelations and a number of other TV shows.
有《阿卡迪亚的琼》、《第七天堂》和《启示录》以及许多其他电视节目。
This story you're about to hear takes a different point of view about God.
你将要听到的这个故事对上帝提出了不同的观点。
Julia Sweeney was on Saturday Night Live.
朱莉娅·斯威尼 (Julia Sweeney) 参加《周六夜现场》。
She's been in all sorts of movies and TV shows.
她曾出演过各种电影和电视剧。
She also did a one-woman show a couple years back about her struggle with cancer called "God Said, 'Ha!'" which Quentin Tarantino made into a film.
几年前，她还制作了一部关于她与癌症斗争的独角戏，名为“上帝说，‘哈！’”，昆汀·塔伦蒂诺将其拍成了电影。
Her latest one-woman show, which has been playing in Los Angeles, is about-- well, it's about God.
她最新的单人秀在洛杉矶上演，是关于——嗯，是关于上帝的。
This is an excerpt.
这是摘录。
Not too long ago, two Mormon missionaries came to my door.
不久前，两位摩门教传教士来到我家门口。
They were each about 19, in white, starched, short-sleeved shirts, and they said they had a message for me from God.
他们每个人大约 19 岁，穿着浆过的白色短袖衬衫，他们说有上帝给我的信息。
And I guess I was sort of curious, so I said, please, come in.
我想我有点好奇，所以我说，请进来。
And they seemed really happy because I don't think that happens to them all that often.
他们看起来真的很高兴，因为我认为这种情况并不经常发生在他们身上。
And I sat them down in the living room, and I got them glasses of water.
我让他们在客厅坐下，给他们倒了杯水。
And after our niceties, I said, OK.
在我们亲切交谈之后，我说，好吧。
I'm ready for my message from God.
我已经准备好接受来自上帝的信息了。
But they had a question instead, which really threw me a little.
但他们却提出了一个问题，这确实让我有点困惑。
I thought it would be more like a pitch at a studio.
我认为这更像是在工作室的推销。
And they would tell me their story, and then if I were interested, I would have my people call their people or something.
他们会告诉我他们的故事，然后如果我感兴趣，我会让我的人称呼他们的人或其他什么。
But apparently, this was going to be interactive.
但显然，这将是互动的。
And they said, do you believe that God loves you with all his heart?
他们说，你相信神全心全意地爱你吗？
And I thought, well, of course, I believe in God.
我想，好吧，我当然相信上帝。
But I don't like that word heart because that so anthropomorphizes God.
但我不喜欢“心”这个词，因为它把上帝拟人化了。
And I don't like the word his either because that sexualizes God.
我也不喜欢“他的”这个词，因为这使上帝变得性感。
But then I didn't want to argue semantics with these boys.
但后来我不想和这些男孩争论语义。
So after a very long, uncomfortable pause, I said, yes.
因此，经过很长一段不舒服的停顿后，我说，是的。
Yes, I do.
是的，我愿意。
I feel very loved.
我感到非常被爱。
And then they looked at each other and smiled, like that was the right answer.
然后他们互相看着对方微笑，好像这就是正确的答案。
And then they said, do you believe that we're all brothers and sisters on this planet?
然后他们说，你相信我们都是这个星球上的兄弟姐妹吗？
And I immediately said, yes I do, yes, I do.
我立即说，是的，我愿意，是的，我愿意。
And I was so relieved that it was a question that I could just answer quickly.
我松了口气，因为我可以很快回答这个问题。
And they said, well, then we have a story to tell you.
他们说，好吧，那么我们有一个故事要告诉你。
And they told me this story all about this guy named Lehi who lived in Jerusalem in 600 BC.
他们给我讲了这个关于公元前 600 年住在耶路撒冷的名叫李海的人的故事。
Now apparently, in Jerusalem in 600 BC, everyone was completely bad and evil.
显然，在公元前 600 年的耶路撒冷，每个人都是完全邪恶的。
Every single one of them.
他们每一个。
Man, woman, child, infant, fetus.
男人、女人、儿童、婴儿、胎儿。
And God came to Lehi, and he said, put your family on a boat, and I will lead you out of here.
神来到李海，他说，把你的家人放在船上，我会带你离开这里。
And so he did.
他也这么做了。
And God led them to America.
上帝带领他们来到了美国。
I said, America?
我说，美国？
From Jerusalem to America by boat in 600 BC?
公元前600年从耶路撒冷乘船到美国？
And they said, yes.
他们说，是的。
And then they told me how Lehi and his descendants reproduced and reproduced.
然后他们告诉我李海和他的后代是如何繁衍生息的。
And eventually, over the course of 600 years, there were two races of them, the Nephites and Lamanites.
最终，在六百年的时间里，他们出现了两个种族：尼腓人和拉曼人。
And the Nephites were totally, totally good, each and every one of them.
尼腓人每一个人都非常非常好。
And the Lamanites were totally bad and evil, every single one of them, just bad to the bone.
拉曼人是完全邪恶的，他们每一个都是坏到骨子里的。
Then after Jesus died on the cross for our sins, on his way up to heaven, he stopped by America and visited the Nephites.
耶稣为我们的罪死在十字架上后，在前往天堂的途中，他在美国停留并拜访了尼腓人。
And he said that if the Nephites all remained totally good, each and every one of them, they would win this war against the Lamanites.
他说，如果尼腓人每一个人都保持完全善良，他们就会赢得这场对抗拉曼人的战争。
But apparently, somebody blew it, and the Lamanites killed all the Nephites.
但显然，有人搞砸了，拉曼人杀死了所有尼腓人。
All except this one guy named Mormon who managed to survive by hiding in the woods.
除了这个名叫摩门的家伙之外，他躲在树林里才得以生存。
And he made sure that this whole story was written down in reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics chiseled onto gold plates, which he then buried near Palmyra, New York.
他确保整个故事都用刻在金板上的改良埃及象形文字写下来，然后他将其埋在纽约巴尔米拉附近。
And then they told me how this guy named Joseph Smith found the buried gold plates right in his backyard.
然后他们告诉我这个名叫约瑟夫·史密斯的人是如何在他的后院找到埋藏的金页片的。
And he also found this magic stone back there that he put into his hat and then buried his face into it.
他还在后面发现了这块魔法石，他把它放进帽子里，然后把脸埋进去。
And this allowed him to translate the gold plates from the reformed Egyptian into English.
这使得他能够将改革后的埃及人的金页片翻译成英语。
Well, I was just looking at these boys with wide eyes, and I was really wishing I could give them some advice about their pitch.
好吧，我只是睁大眼睛看着这些男孩，我真的希望能为他们提供一些关于他们的球场的建议。
I wanted to say, OK, don't start with this story.
我想说，好吧，不要从这个故事开始。
I mean, even the Scientologists know to give a personality test before they start telling you all about Xenu, the evil intergalactic overlord.
我的意思是，即使是山达基教徒也知道在开始告诉你关于邪恶的星际霸主泽努的一切之前要进行性格测试。
Well, then they said, well, we also believe that if you're a Mormon and if you're in good standing with the church, when you die, you get to go to heaven and be with your family for all eternity.
好吧，然后他们说，好吧，我们也相信，如果你是摩门教徒，并且在教会中享有良好的声誉，那么当你死后，你就可以去天堂并与你的家人永远在一起。
And I said, oh, dear.
我说，哦，亲爱的。
That wouldn't really be such a good incentive for me.
这对我来说并不是一个很好的激励。
I mean, everyone in your family?
我是说，你家里的每个人？
And then they gave me a Book of Mormon, and they told me to read this chapter and that chapter.
然后他们给了我一本摩尔门经，让我读这一章和那一章。
And they said they'd come back someday and check in on me.
他们说有一天会回来看看我。
And I think I said something like, please don't hurry.
我想我说过类似的话，请不要着急。
Or maybe it was just, please don't.
或者也许只是，请不要这样做。
And they were gone.
然后他们就走了。
OK.
好的。
So I initially felt pretty superior to these boys and really smug in my more conventional faith.
所以一开始我感觉自己比这些男孩优越得多，并且对自己更传统的信仰感到沾沾自喜。
But then the more I thought about it, I had to be honest with myself.
但后来我想得越多，我就必须对自己诚实。
I mean, if someone came to my door and I was hearing Catholic theology and dogma for the very first time, and they said, we believe that God impregnated a very young girl without the use of intercourse, and the fact that she was a virgin is maniacally important to us, and she had a baby, and that was the son of God, I would think that was equally ridiculous.
我的意思是，如果有人来到我家门口，我第一次听到天主教神学和教义，他们说，我们相信上帝在没有性交的情况下使一个非常年轻的女孩怀孕，而她是处女这一事实对我们来说非常重要，而且她生了一个孩子，那是上帝的儿子，我会认为这同样荒谬。
I guess I'm just so used to that story.
我想我已经习惯了这个故事。
So I couldn't let myself feel condescending towards these boys.
所以我不能让自己对这些男孩感到居高临下。
But the question they asked me when they first arrived stuck in my head.
但他们刚来时问我的问题却一直萦绕在我的脑海里。
Do you believe that God loves you with all his heart?
你相信神全心全意地爱你吗？
Because I wasn't exactly sure how I felt about that question.
因为我不太确定我对这个问题的感受。
Now, if they had asked me, do you feel that God loves you with all his heart, now, that question would have been much easier.
现在，如果他们问我，你觉得神全心全意地爱你吗？现在，这个问题就容易多了。
I would have instantly answered yes.
我会立即回答是的。
Yes, I feel it all the time.
是的，我一直都有这种感觉。
I feel God's love when I'm hurt and confused, and I feel consoled and cared for.
当我受伤、困惑时，我感受到上帝的爱，我感到安慰和关心。
But since they asked me the question with the word "believe" in it, somehow it was all different.
但自从他们问我这个问题时带着“相信”这个词，不知何故一切都不同了。
Because I wasn't sure if I believed what I so clearly felt.
因为我不确定我是否相信我如此清晰的感觉。
OK.
好的。
My religious history in a nutshell.
简而言之，我的宗教历史。
I was raised Catholic, and for me, it was all in all a great experience.
我是天主教徒，对我来说，这一切都是一次很棒的经历。
I know we can't stop reading about all of the people who have had just horrific and abusive experiences as a child in the Catholic church.
我知道我们无法停止阅读所有那些小时候在天主教堂里经历过可怕和虐待经历的人的故事。
But for me, it was mostly wonderful.
但对我来说，这基本上是美妙的。
I always felt really lucky to be a Catholic.
我一直觉得自己很幸运能成为一名天主教徒。
It was easy for me to believe.
我很容易相信。
I even had religious experiences.
我什至有过宗教经历。
I know this is more of a Protestant thing than a Catholic thing, but I had a few times, maybe five or six times, where I felt the power of the Holy Spirit, this force of love and transcendence, come over me and just shake me to the core.
我知道这更多的是新教的事情，而不是天主教的事情，但我有几次，也许五六次，我感觉到圣灵的力量，这种爱和超越的力量，降临在我身上，从根本上震撼了我。
And in spite of their nutty story, the Mormon boys inspired me.
尽管摩门教男孩的故事很疯狂，但他们还是激励了我。
I realized I'd been getting lazy about my faith.
我意识到我对信仰变得懒惰了。
So I decided to rededicate myself to the church.
所以我决定重新献身于教会。
I went to Mass at several different Catholic churches and finally settled on joining one about 10 miles from my house.
我去了几个不同的天主教堂参加弥撒，最后决定参加距离我家大约 10 英里的一所教堂。
Their Masses were so emotional.
他们的弥撒是如此情绪化。
I would have to choke back tears just to say the Nicene Creed every time I went.
每次我去的时候，只要念出《尼西亚信经》，我就得强忍着泪水。
"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth, and of all things seen and unseen." Well, I noticed in the announcements that the church offered a Bible study class on Thursday nights, and I decided to sign up for it.
“我们相信一位上帝，全能的父，天地和一切可见和不可见事物的创造者。”嗯，我在公告中注意到教会在周四晚上提供圣经学习班，我决定报名参加。
The Catholics don't really emphasize the Bible all that much.
天主教徒并没有那么强调圣经。
Their attitude is sort of, leave that book to the professionals.
他们的态度是，把那本书留给专业人士。
Don't you worry your little self with that complicated book.
不要因为那本复杂的书而担心你的小自己。
So I felt eager to finally read this book, this book that I'd always wanted to take the time to read, but I really never had.
所以我很渴望终于能读到这本书，这本我一直想花时间读，但我真的没有读过的书。
And I was happy to see that the Old Testament starts out with two conflicting stories about the origin of the universe, one where Adam and Eve are created at the exact same moment, and then in the next chapter, a second creation story where Adam is created first, and then Eve is created out of his rib after he gets lonely.
我很高兴地看到《旧约》以两个关于宇宙起源的相互冲突的故事开始，一个是亚当和夏娃在同一时刻被创造，然后在下一章中，第二个创造故事是亚当首先被创造，然后夏娃在他感到孤独后用他的肋骨创造出来。
And I thought, wow.
我想，哇。
For all those people who believe every word of the Bible is true, they can't even have read the first two chapters.
对于那些相信圣经每一句话都是真实的人来说，他们甚至不可能读过前两章。
In fact, the Bible contradicts itself all over the place.
事实上，圣经到处都是自相矛盾的。
Then we got to stories like Sodom and Gomorrah.
然后我们讲了像所多玛和蛾摩拉这样的故事。
All I remembered about that story is that they were these two sinful cities, like Las Vegas or something, and God got mad and wiped them out.
关于那个故事，我只记得它们是两个罪恶的城市，就像拉斯维加斯之类的，上帝生气了，把它们消灭了。
And Lot's wife looked back when she was told not to and got turned into a pillar of salt.
当罗得的妻子被告知不要回头时，她回头看了一眼，结果变成了一根盐柱。
But the nuns of my grade school didn't explain to us what happens right before they flee.
但我小学的修女们在逃跑前并没有向我们解释发生了什么。
Right before they flee, two angels that are masquerading as two men come for a visit and stay overnight at Lot's house.
就在他们逃跑之前，两个天使伪装成两个男人来拜访并在罗得家过夜。
And this mob forms outside, and they yell, send out those two angel-like men to us so we can have sex with them.
这群暴民在外面形成，他们大喊，派出那两个天使般的男人给我们，这样我们就可以和他们发生性关系。
And Lot yells, no, which I think is a basic rule of hospitality.
洛特大喊，不，我认为这是待客之道的基本规则。
Don't give up your guests to be raped by an angry mob.
不要让你的客人被愤怒的暴徒强奸。
But then what does he say next?
但他接下来说什么？
He says, instead of the men, please, take my daughters, and rape, and do what you will with them.
他说，请代替男人，带走我的女儿，强奸他们，对她们做你想做的事。
They're virgins.
她们是处女。
After Lot and his traumatized daughters flee Sodom and Gomorrah, they all go to a cave in the mountains.
罗得和他饱受创伤的女儿们逃离所多玛和蛾摩拉后，她们都去了山上的一个山洞。
And during the night, Lot's two daughters get him drunk and rape him.
晚上，罗得的两个女儿把他灌醉并强奸了他。
Do they do this in revenge of what their father did to them?
他们这样做是为了报复他们父亲对他们所做的一切吗？
No. The Bible says it's because there aren't any other men around.
不，圣经说这是因为周围没有其他人。
Even though the Bible also says that they're not that far from a city named Zoar.
尽管圣经也说他们离琐珥城并不远。
So I guess no men around for maybe a few miles?
所以我猜周围几英里内都没有人？
And wait a minute.
等一下。
So Lot's daughters just had to drug and rape someone?
那么罗得的女儿们只能吸毒并强奸某人吗？
And I guess if you're their dad and you're the only one there--
我想如果你是他们的父亲并且你是那里唯一的人——
I knew the Bible had nutty stories, but I guess I thought they'd be wedged in amongst an ocean of inspiration and history.
我知道《圣经》里有很多疯狂的故事，但我想我认为它们会融入灵感和历史的海洋之中。
But instead, the stories just got darker and more convoluted.
但相反，故事变得更加黑暗、更加复杂。
Like when God asks Abraham to murder his son Isaac.
就像上帝要求亚伯拉罕谋杀他的儿子以撒一样。
As a kid, we were taught to admire it.
小时候，我们被教导要欣赏它。
I caught my breath reading it.
读完它我屏住了呼吸。
We were taught to admire it?
我们被教导要欣赏它？
What kind of sadistic test of loyalty is that, to ask someone to kill his or her own child?
要求某人杀死自己的孩子，这是对忠诚度的什么样的残酷考验？
And isn't the proper answer no, I will not kill my child or any child?
正确的答案不是“我不会杀死我的孩子或任何孩子”吗？
At the next class, Father Tom reminded us that Isaac represents what matters to Abraham most, and that's what God asks us to give up for him.
在下一堂课上，汤姆神父提醒我们，以撒代表了对亚伯拉罕来说最重要的东西，这就是神要求我们为他放弃的东西。
I said, but protecting and loving and caring for the welfare of your child is such a deep ethical, loving instinct and act.
我说过，但是保护、爱护和关心孩子的福祉是一种深刻的道德、爱的本能和行为。
So what if what matters to you most is your own loving behavior?
那么，如果对你来说最重要的是你自己的爱的行为呢？
Should we be willing to give up our ethics for God?
我们是否应该愿意为上帝放弃道德？
And he said, no, it's what matters to you most.
他说，不，这对你来说才是最重要的。
It isn't your ethics because your ethics is your love and faith in God.
这不是你的道德，因为你的道德是你对上帝的爱和信仰。
That confused me, but I decided to just let it go.
这让我很困惑，但我决定放弃它。
But then I found that Abraham wasn't the only person willing to murder his own child for God.
但后来我发现亚伯拉罕并不是唯一愿意为上帝谋杀自己孩子的人。
They're all over the place in the Bible.
它们在圣经中随处可见。
For example, in the Book of Judges, a guy named Jephthah tells God that if God helps him win this battle, he will kill the first person to greet him when he comes home.
例如，在《士师记》中，一个名叫耶弗他的人告诉上帝，如果上帝帮助他赢得这场战斗，他就会杀死他回家时第一个迎接他的人。
Who turns out to be his daughter.
原来是他的女儿。
Who he sets on fire.
他放火烧了谁。
Some people argue that without the Bible, morality would be relative and wishy-washy.
有些人认为，如果没有《圣经》，道德就会是相对的、软弱无力的。
But in the Bible, morality is relative and wishy-washy.
但在圣经中，道德是相对的，而且是软弱无力的。
In fact, it sure seems like our modern morality is much more loving and humane than the Bible's morality.
事实上，我们现代的道德似乎比圣经的道德更有爱心和人性得多。
After Mass one Sunday, Father Tom saw me outside the church, and he said, Julia, you always look so very sad in Bible study class.
一个周日弥撒结束后，汤姆神父在教堂外看到我，他说，朱莉娅，你在圣经学习课上总是看起来非常悲伤。
And I said, well, God is so offensive in the Old Testament.
我说，好吧，上帝在旧约中是如此令人反感。
I mean, like, bipolar.
我的意思是，就像双相情感障碍。
And Father Tom said, well, you know, the Old Testament.
汤姆神父说，嗯，你知道，《旧约》。
The stories are legends.
故事都是传说。
They're tales of trickery and deception that were told around the campfire.
它们是围绕篝火讲述的诡计和欺骗的故事。
There's no evidence that Abraham is anything other than legend.
没有证据表明亚伯拉罕只是一个传奇。
Or Isaac, or Moses.
或者以撒，或者摩西。
But Julia, you can't approach the Bible with modern historical eyes.
但是朱莉娅，你不能用现代历史的眼光来看待圣经。
You've got to read it with the eyes of faith.
你必须用信心的眼睛来阅读它。
This is the story that God wants us to know.
这是神要我们知道的故事。
As I drove home, I thought, OK, calm down.
当我开车回家时，我想，好吧，冷静点。
This is the Old Testament.
这是旧约。
Old.
老的。
Old is right in the title.
旧的就在标题中。
A new, a newer testament is coming up.
一份新的、更新的遗嘱即将来临。
And that's why God sent his son Jesus.
这就是上帝差遣他的儿子耶稣的原因。
Because we clearly hadn't gotten the message right.
因为我们显然没有正确理解信息。
Right?
正确的？
I could hardly wait to meet Jesus again as if it were the first time.
我迫不及待地想再次见到耶稣，就好像这是第一次一样。
But oh dear.
但是哦亲爱的。
Well, first off, Jesus is much angrier than I expected him to be.
好吧，首先，耶稣比我预想的要愤怒得多。
I knew that Jesus got angry with all those money changers in the temple and everything, but I didn't know that he was so angry so much of the time.
我知道耶稣对圣殿里所有的货币兑换商和一切事物都很生气，但我不知道他在很多时候都如此生气。
And very impatient.
而且很不耐烦。
For example, Jesus says he teaches in parables because people don't understand anything else.
例如，耶稣说他用比喻来教导，因为人们不明白其他任何事情。
But the parables are often foggy and meaningless, and Jesus is snippy when even the disciples don't get them.
但这些比喻常常含糊不清、毫无意义，当连门徒都听不懂时，耶稣就很生气。
He says, if you don't understand this parable, then how can you understand any parable?
他说，如果你不明白这个比喻，那你怎么能明白任何比喻呢？
And, are you incapable of understanding?
还有，你就不能理解吗？
I kept thinking, don't teach in parables then.
我一直在想，那就不要用比喻来教学。
It's not working.
它不起作用。
Even your staff doesn't understand them.
甚至你的员工也不理解他们。
Why don't you just say what you mean?
你为什么不直接说你的意思呢？
And it was hard to stay on Jesus's side when he started saying really aggressive, hateful things.
当耶稣开始说一些非常具有攻击性和可恨的话时，我们就很难站在耶稣一边了。
Like in Luke.
就像路加福音中那样。
Jesus says that he is like a king who says, anyone who does not recognize me, bring them here and slaughter them before me.
耶稣说他就像一个国王说，谁不认识我，就把他们带到这里，在我面前宰杀他们。
Or in John chapter 15, where Jesus says that anyone who doesn't believe in him is like a withered branch that will be cast into the fire and burned.
或者在约翰福音第15章中，耶稣说，不信他的人就像枯干的枝子，要丢在火里烧掉。
In Matthew, he says, I come not to bring peace, but a sword.
他在《马太福音》中说，我来不是要带来和平，而是要带来刀剑。
And then in Luke, he says, and if you don't have a sword, sell your clothes and buy one.
然后在《路加福音》中，他说，如果你没有剑，就卖掉你的衣服，买一把。
Then Jesus just starts acting downright crazy.
然后耶稣就开始表现得很疯狂。
Like in Matthew chapter 21.
就像马太福音第 21 章中那样。
When a fig tree doesn't have a fig for him to eat, Jesus condemns the fig tree to death.
当无花果树没有无花果给他吃时，耶稣就判处无花果树死刑。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Jesus condemns a fig tree to death.
耶稣判处无花果树死刑。
Not a parable, by the way.
顺便说一句，这不是寓言。
Just Jesus, pissed off that the fig tree didn't have a fig for him to eat when he wanted one.
只有耶稣，他很生气，因为当他想要无花果树时却没有无花果给他吃。
Not exactly the Prince of Peace who taught us to turn the other cheek.
不完全是教导我们把另一边脸转过去的和平王子。
And then there's family.
然后还有家人。
I have to say the most upsetting thing to me about Jesus is his family values, which is amazing when you think how there's so many groups out there who say they base their family values on the Bible.
我不得不说，耶稣最令我不安的是他的家庭价值观，当你想到有这么多团体说他们的家庭价值观是基于圣经时，这真是令人惊讶。
I mean, he seems to have no real close ties to his parents.
我的意思是，他似乎与他的父母没有真正密切的联系。
He puts Mary off cruelly over and over again.
他一次又一次残酷地排斥玛丽。
At the wedding feast he says to her, woman, what have I to do with you?
婚宴上他对她说，女人，我跟你有什么相干？
And once, while he was speaking to this crowd, Mary waited patiently off to the side to talk to him.
有一次，当他向人群讲话时，玛丽耐心地在一旁等待与他交谈。
And Jesus said to the disciples, send her away, you are my family now.
耶稣对门徒说，打发她走吧，你们现在是我的家人了。
Jesus actually discourages any contact his converts have with their own families.
事实上，耶稣不鼓励他的信徒与自己的家人有任何接触。
He himself does not marry or have children, and he explicitly tells his followers not to have families as well.
他本人不结婚也不生孩子，他明确告诉他的追随者也不要有家庭。
And if they do, they should just abandon them.
如果他们这样做了，他们应该放弃他们。
Isn't that what cults do?
这不是邪教所做的事吗？
Get you to reject your family in order to inculcate you?
让你拒绝家人来灌输你？
So that's the New Testament family values for you, the supposed big improvement over the Old Testament family values, which seemed to be mostly about incest and mass slaughter and protecting your own specific genetic line at all costs.
这就是你的新约家庭价值观，比旧约家庭价值观有很大的进步，旧约家庭价值观似乎主要是关于乱伦和大规模屠杀以及不惜一切代价保护你自己的特定基因谱系。
The Bible.
圣经。
The Good Book.
好书。
The Good News.
好消息。
I was so disillusioned with the Bible by the time I finished the Epistles, I didn't think it could get any worse.
当我完成书信时，我对圣经的幻想已经破灭，我认为情况不会变得更糟了。
But it did.
但它确实做到了。
We were just about to read the last and most oddball book of the Bible, Revelation.
我们正要读圣经最后一本也是最奇怪的书《启示录》。
Revelation tells us that in heaven, Jesus will resemble a dead lamb with seven horns and seven eyes.
启示录告诉我们，在天上，耶稣将像一只死羔羊，有七角七眼。
And when the gates of hell are opened, locusts pour out with human faces wearing tiny crowns, and they sting people with their tails.
当地狱之门打开时，蝗虫就会涌出来，人面戴着小王冠，用尾巴叮人。
Revelation tells us that only 144,000 people will even be saved and go to heaven.
启示录告诉我们，只有144,000人会得救并进入天堂。
And none of them will have quote "defiled" themselves with women, which I guess excludes most heterosexual men from heaven.
他们中没有人会引用女性“玷污”自己的言论，我想这将大多数异性恋男人排除在天堂之外。
And depending on how you interpret that word "defiled," I would say excludes all women too.
根据你如何解释“玷污”这个词，我想说也排除了所有女性。
As we finished Revelation, the whole Bible study group just sat there, dumbfounded, our Bibles on our laps.
当我们读完《启示录》时，整个圣经学习小组都坐在那里，目瞪口呆，我们的圣经放在腿上。
I said, Father Tom, I am having a really hard time with this book.
我说，汤姆神父，我对这本书感到非常困难。
And he told me to pray for faith.
他告诉我要为信仰祈祷。
I left the church thinking, is this one big practical joke?
我离开教堂时心想，这是一个天大的恶作剧吗？
Where is my God, the Jesus I thought I knew?
我的上帝，我自以为认识的耶稣在哪里？
The one that I love and the one who loves me?
我爱的人和爱我的人？
I drove home, and I was stopped at this red light on Crenshaw and Wilshire.
我开车回家，在克伦肖和威尔希尔的红灯处被拦了下来。
And I saw all these people walking to church, holding their Bibles.
我看到所有这些人都拿着圣经走向教堂。
And I wanted to yell out the window, have you read that book?
我想对窗外大喊，你读过那本书吗？
I felt like I was in a horror film.
我感觉自己就像置身于一部恐怖电影中。
And I realized that the clue to the insanity was not some secret document.
我意识到精神错乱的线索并不是什么秘密文件。
It was a book that everyone was holding, that was in every hotel room.
这是一本每个人都拿着的书，每个酒店房间里都有。
The biggest bestseller of all time.
有史以来最大的畅销书。
And yet if you cared enough to just glance inside, you found you'd opened the door to an insane asylum with a bunch of crazy people dancing around, yelling, "yippidee-yippidee-yah!" And I had quickly shut that door.
然而，如果你足够细心，只往里面看一眼，你就会发现自己打开了一座精神病院的门，里面有一群疯子在周围跳舞，喊着“yippidee-yippidee-yah！”我很快就关上了那扇门。
And how was I going to pretend that I hadn't opened that door?
我该如何假装我没有打开那扇门呢？
But some things were just too big to ignore.
但有些事情太大了，不容忽视。
Like the whole point of the New Testament, that Jesus died for our sins.
就像新约的要点一样，耶稣为我们的罪而死。
As if someone can pay for someone else's sins.
好像有人可以为别人的罪孽付出代价。
For the first time, after going to church my whole life, I considered the idea that God's son came to earth and suffered and died for our sins.
在我一生都去教堂之后，我第一次想到神的儿子来到世上，为我们的罪受苦并死。
Why?
为什么？
Jesus suffered, but you can't argue that he suffered any more than a lot of other people have suffered.
耶稣受苦了，但你不能说他所受的苦难比许多其他人所受的苦难还要多。
I could think of examples in my own family.
我可以想到我自己家里的例子。
My brother Mike who had cancer, he suffered unspeakably for a very long time.
我的兄弟迈克患有癌症，他在很长一段时间内遭受了难以言喻的痛苦。
Eyelids freezing open, and his eyes drying up.
眼皮冻得张开，眼睛干涩。
Canker sores all over his throat, and he couldn't swallow.
他喉咙里全是溃疡，无法吞咽。
Weeks and then months of gut-wrenching vomiting and nausea before he then died.
在他去世之前，他经历了数周甚至数月的令人痛苦的呕吐和恶心。
So OK.
那么好吧。
Jesus suffered.
耶稣受苦了。
He apparently suffered terribly for one, maybe even two days.
显然他已经痛苦了一天，甚至两天。
I heard someone say once, Jesus had a really bad weekend for our sins.
有一次我听到有人说，耶稣为我们的罪过了一个非常糟糕的周末。
I suddenly thought, why would a God create people so imperfect, then blame them for their own imperfections, then send his son to be murdered by those imperfect people to make up for how imperfect those people were?
我突然想到，上帝为什么要创造如此不完美的人，然后把自己的不完美归咎于他们，然后让他的儿子被那些不完美的人谋杀，以弥补这些人的不完美呢？
And how imperfect they were inevitably going to be?
他们不可避免地会变得多么不完美？
I mean, what a crazy idea.
我的意思是，多么疯狂的想法啊。
So I tried to concentrate on what I did like about the church.
所以我试着把注意力集中在我喜欢教堂的地方。
The stained glass windows were pretty.
彩色玻璃窗很漂亮。
The light in the church.
教堂里的光。
The religious art.
宗教艺术。
The songs.
歌曲。
Not the words to the songs exactly, but the melodies were nice.
不完全是歌曲的歌词，但旋律很好听。
Especially at Christmas.
特别是在圣诞节。
It was also pretty in the church then.
那时教堂里也很漂亮。
After Mass, Father Tom saw me outside the church, and he said, Happy Easter, Julia.
弥撒结束后，汤姆神父在教堂外看到我，他说，复活节快乐，朱莉娅。
And I said, Happy Easter, Father.
我说，复活节快乐，神父。
And he said, you know, I can see you frowning from the pulpit.
他说，你知道，我可以看到你在讲坛上皱着眉头。
And I said, I'm sorry, but Father, help me.
我说，对不起，但父亲，请帮助我。
What can I do?
我能做些什么？
It all just seems impossible to believe.
这一切似乎令人难以置信。
He pulled me towards the coffee and doughnuts table.
他把我拉向咖啡和甜甜圈桌。
He said, I've spoken with some of the other priests about your predicament.
他说，我已经和其他一些牧师谈论过你的困境。
I loved how he said "predicament." I felt like I was 16 and knocked up.
我喜欢他说的“困境”。我感觉自己就像16岁一样，已经筋疲力尽了。
I said, yeah?
我说，是吗？
What do they suggest?
他们有什么建议？
And he said, listen.
他说，听着。
We all struggle with doubt, but we all come back.
我们都在怀疑中挣扎，但我们都会回来。
Just remember Proverbs 3:5.
只要记住箴言 3:5 就可以了。
Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding.
全心全意地信靠主，不要依靠自己的理解。
So God gave us the gifts of reasoning and intelligence and curiosity, but then we're not supposed to use them?
那么上帝给了我们推理、智力和好奇心的天赋，但我们不应该使用它们吗？
Father Tom sighed, like he was so tired of me and my struggle.
汤姆神父叹了口气，好像他厌倦了我和我的挣扎。
And I felt so angry that he used that particular proverb, like he was shutting the door.
我对他使用那句特殊的谚语感到非常生气，就像他在关门一样。
Then Father Tom suddenly blessed me.
然后汤姆神父突然祝福我。
It was kind of awkward.
有点尴尬。
He just started waving his hands over me and chanting this phrase in Latin.
他开始向我挥手，并用拉丁语念诵这句话。
Not that this is so out of the ordinary or wrong.
这并不是说这是多么不寻常或错误。
It just felt like he was trying to perform an exorcism.
感觉他只是想进行驱魔。
I came home, and it felt remarkably quiet.
我回到家，感觉出奇的安静。
Just me and God.
只有我和上帝。
Not saying much.
不多说。
And the truth was, I was starting to get nervous about our relationship.
事实是，我开始对我们的关系感到紧张。
I felt like we were this married couple in trouble, just trying to find some common ground.
我觉得我们就像这对陷入困境的已婚夫妇，只是想找到一些共同点。
And then one day I was Cometing out my bathtub, and I thought, what if it's true?
然后有一天，我从浴缸里出来，我想，如果这是真的怎么办？
What if humans are here because of pure, random chance?
如果人类的存在纯粹是出于偶然，会怎样？
What if there is no guiding hand, no one watching?
如果没有指导手、没有人看怎么办？
I realized I had spent so much time thinking about what God meant that I hadn't really spent any time thinking about what not God meant.
我意识到我花了太多时间思考上帝的意思，却没有真正花时间思考上帝以外的意思。
A few days later, as I was walking across my backyard into my house, I realized that there was this teeny-weeny thought whispering inside my head.
几天后，当我穿过后院走进我的房子时，我意识到有一个微小的想法在我的脑海里低语。
I'm not sure how long it had been there, but it suddenly got just one decibel louder.
我不知道它已经在那里多久了，但声音突然增加了一个分贝。
And it whispered, there is no God.
它低声说，没有上帝。
And I tried to ignore it.
我试图忽略它。
But it got a teeny bit louder.
但声音变得有点大了。
There is no God.
没有上帝。
There is no God.
没有上帝。
I'm embarrassed to report that I initially felt dizzy.
我很尴尬地告诉大家，我最初感到头晕。
I actually had the thought, well, how does the earth stay up in the sky?
我实际上有一个想法，那么，地球是如何保持在天空中的呢？
You mean we're just hurtling through space?
你的意思是我们只是在太空中飞驰？
That's so vulnerable.
那太脆弱了。
And then I thought, well, what's going to stop me from just rushing out and murdering people?
然后我想，那么，什么才能阻止我冲出去杀人呢？
And I had to walk myself through it.
我必须自己经历这一切。
Like, why are we ethical?
比如，为什么我们有道德？
Well, we have to get along with each other in order for communities to exist.
好吧，我们必须彼此相处才能使社区存在。
So I guess that's why I don't run out and just murder people.
所以我想这就是为什么我没有跑出去杀人。
And then I felt like I'd cheated on God somehow.
然后我觉得我不知何故欺骗了上帝。
And I went in the house, and I prayed.
我走进屋子，祈祷。
And I asked God to please help me have faith.
我请求上帝帮助我有信心。
But already it felt slightly silly and vacant, and I felt like I was just talking to myself.
但已经感觉有点愚蠢和空虚了，我觉得我只是在自言自语。
And then, over the course of several weeks, God disappeared.
然后，几周后，上帝消失了。
And I wandered around in a daze, thinking, no one is minding the store.
我迷迷糊糊地走来走去，心想，这家店没人管吧。
I had shared my mind with God my whole life, and now I realized my thoughts were completely my own.
我一生都与上帝分享我的想法，现在我意识到我的想法完全是我自己的。
No one was monitoring them.
没有人监视他们。
No one was compassionately listening to them.
没有人同情地倾听他们的讲话。
One day I was sipping my coffee, walking along a busy shopping area near my house.
有一天，我一边喝着咖啡，一边沿着我家附近繁忙的购物区散步。
And I was lost in thought, thinking, so I don't think anything happens to us after we die.
我陷入了沉思，思考，所以我认为我们死后不会发生任何事情。
Our brain just stops like every other organ.
我们的大脑就像其他器官一样停止运转。
So people just die.
所以人们就这样死去。
And then I thought, wait a minute.
然后我想，等一下。
So Hitler, Hitler just died?
那么希特勒，希特勒刚刚死了？
No one sat him down and said, you screwed up, buddy, and now you're going to spend an eternity in hell.
没有人让他坐下来说，你搞砸了，伙计，现在你将在地狱里度过永恒。
Huh.
呵呵。
So Hitler just died.
所以希特勒刚刚死了。
And my brother Mike.
还有我的兄弟迈克。
He just died.
他刚刚死了。
I always had this idea that Mike's death, while premature, was his divine destiny somehow.
我一直有这样的想法：迈克的死虽然过早，但不知何故是他的神圣命运。
And that his spirit didn't really die, but it lived on.
他的精神并没有真正死去，而是继续存在。
Not just in the memory of those that knew him, but in this real, tangible sense.
不仅在认识他的人的记忆中，而且在这种真实、有形的意义上。
And I realized that I now thought he died.
我意识到我现在认为他死了。
He really died, and he was gone forever
他真的死了，而且永远消失了
And then I realized I had to go back and basically kill off everyone I ever knew who died who I didn't think really died.
然后我意识到我必须回去并基本上杀死所有我认识的人，他们死了，而我认为没有真正死过。
And then I thought, oh, so I'm going to die.
然后我想，哦，所以我要死了。
Then I started thinking about all the happenstances, all the random little moves which resulted in me being alive, me, in particular, at this moment.
然后我开始思考所有的偶然事件，所有导致我活着的随机小举动，特别是此时此刻的我。
Not just of my parents meeting, but even of the billions of sperm against the hundreds of possible eggs.
不仅仅是我父母的会面，甚至是数十亿个精子与数百个可能的卵子的对抗。
I thought about this randomness multiplying.
我想到了这种随机性的倍增。
My parents, their parents, and all the ways it could have gone one way, but it went the way it went.
我的父母，他们的父母，以及一切本来可以单向发展的方式，但它还是这样发展了。
Richard Dawkins wrote, "Certainly those unborn ghosts include poets greater than Keats, scientists greater than Newton.
理查德·道金斯写道：“当然，那些未出生的幽灵包括比济慈更伟大的诗人，比牛顿更伟大的科学家。
But in the teeth of these stupefying odds, it is you and I in our ordinariness that are here."
但在这些令人震惊的困难中，只有你和我，以我们的平凡生活站在这里。”
An excerpt from "Letting Go of God," Julia Sweeney's new one-woman show.
朱莉娅·斯威尼 (Julia Sweeney) 的新单女秀《放开上帝》(Letting Go of God) 的摘录。
She's planning on a movie and a book.
她正在计划拍一部电影和一本书。
For news of all that, go to her website, juliasweeney.com.
有关所有新闻，请访问她的网站 juliasweeney.com。
Our program is produced today by Sarah Koenig and myself with Alex Blumberg, Diane Cook, Jane Feltes, and Lisa Pollak.
今天我们的节目由 Sarah Koenig 和我本人以及 Alex Blumberg、Diane Cook、Jane Feltes 和 Lisa Pollak 制作。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Elizabeth Meister runs our website.
伊丽莎白·梅斯特 (Elizabeth Meister) 负责运营我们的网站。
Production help from Todd Bachmann and Laura Bellows.
托德·巴赫曼 (Todd Bachmann) 和劳拉·贝洛斯 (Laura Bellows) 为制作提供帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] You know you can download today's program at our archives at audible.com/thisamericanlife.
[致谢] 您知道您可以在我们的档案库 audible.com/thisamericanlife 下载今天的节目。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight for our program by Torey Malatia, who keeps telling me to give up on these big, conceptual shows about current events that I want to do.
[资金来源] WBEZ 管理部门对我们的节目进行了 Torey Malatia 的监督，他一直告诉我放弃这些我想做的关于时事的大型概念性节目。
It's not working.
它不起作用。
Even your staff doesn't understand them.
甚至你的员工也不理解他们。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life .
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。