287: Backed Into A Corner - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #287 | April 15, 2005 287: Backed Into A Corner Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 287 集 | 2005 年 4 月 15 日 287：陷入困境 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass Joe said he really had no choice even though he made a decision that most of us would be horrified to make ourselves.
序言艾拉·格拉斯·乔说，他确实别无选择，尽管他做出了我们大多数人都会感到害怕的决定。
Here's what happened.
事情是这样的。
He was in prison.
他在监狱里。
He had served eight years on a robbery conviction.
他因抢劫罪已服刑八年。
And he got accused of killing another prisoner, which in many states can get you the death penalty.
他还被指控杀害了另一名囚犯，这在许多州可能会判处死刑。
He was innocent.
他是无辜的。
This was later proven definitively.
这一点后来被明确地证明了。
But his lawyer wasn't very good.
但他的律师不太好。
When I first met him, I asked him have you ever represented anyone before in a capital murder.
当我第一次见到他时，我问他你以前曾在死刑谋杀案中代表过任何人吗？
And he told some, I'm going to be honest with you.
他告诉一些人，我要对你们说实话。
He said, I represented seven people so far.
他说，到目前为止我代表了七个人。
He said six of them got the death penalty and one had received life and 50 years without the possibility of parole.
他说，其中 6 人被判处死刑，1 人被判处无期徒刑，且 50 年不得假释。
The actual details of Joe's trial are not my concern here today.
乔审判的实际细节不是我今天关心的。
The fact that a guard witnessed the crime and named the real killer on the stand but was ignored.
一名警卫目睹了犯罪过程，并在看台上指认了真正的凶手，但被忽视了。
The fact that all the witnesses against Joe were prisoners whose testimony radically contradicted each other's.
事实上，所有对乔不利的证人都是囚犯，他们的证词彼此完全矛盾。
All you need to know is that justice wasn't done.
你只需要知道正义没有得到伸张。
The jury found him guilty, which brought Joe to make a decision that he never told his lawyer about.
陪审团判定他有罪，这促使乔做出了一个他从未告诉律师的决定。
When it came time for sentencing, which was the next thing that would happen in this case, the penalty phase where they had to determine the sentence now that he's been found guilty.
当到了量刑的时候，这是本案中接下来要发生的事情，在刑罚阶段，既然他被判有罪，他们就必须确定量刑。
The jury was going to have to rule if Joe would get the death penalty or get life in prison.
陪审团将不得不裁定乔是否会被判处死刑或终身监禁。
Those were my two choices.
这是我的两个选择。
And I went back to the prison telling myself that I only had one option.
我回到监狱告诉自己我只有一个选择。
And the only option I had was to make sure I received the death sentence.
我唯一的选择就是确保我收到死刑判决。
And I came to the conclusion that night just between and the guys that was in what they call the unit with me.
那天晚上，我在和我一起在他们所谓的单位里的那些人之间得出了这个结论。
We all talked about it.
我们都讨论过。
And they all came to the same thing I said, which was there was too many guys in prison who had life and 50 years without parole.
他们都得出了我所说的同一件事，那就是监狱里有太多人被判无期徒刑，而且 50 年不得假释。
Or life without parole.
或者终身不得假释。
Who might be innocent or whatever but they are stuck in prison because they don't have a lawyer and they can't get anybody's attention.
谁可能是无辜的或其他什么，但他们被困在监狱里，因为他们没有律师，也无法引起任何人的注意。
So I figured if I end up getting life in prison without the possibility of parole, I'm stuck.
所以我想，如果我最终被判终身监禁且没有假释的可能，我就陷入困境了。
Any legal work that we did on my case, I've had to do it myself.
我们对我的案件所做的任何法律工作，都是我自己做的。
Or any publicity I'm going to get, where am I going to get it from?
或者我要获得的任何宣传，我从哪里获得？
I don't have a death sentence.
我没有死刑。
So what if a guy got life and 50 years?
如果一个人能活到50岁又怎么样？
We hear about them every day.
我们每天都会听到他们的消息。
So when the penalty phase came and he put me on that witness stand, I had made my mind up that I'm going to think of every bad act I've ever done as far back as I can remember.
因此，当处罚阶段到来，他把我送上证人席时，我下定决心，我要回想我记事以来所做过的每一件坏事。
Every bad act my sisters, and brothers, my father, my mother, my neighbors.
我的姐妹、兄弟、父亲、母亲、邻居的每一个坏行为。
Everything bad I could think to tell them.
所有不好的事情我都想告诉他们。
Everything bad I could think that I could tell them I did while I was in prison, I told it.
我认为我可以告诉他们我在监狱里所做的一切不好的事情，我都告诉了。
Because I wanted to make sure I received the death sentence.
因为我想确保我收到了死刑判决。
Because I figured if I received the death sentence, I'll have a lawyer.
因为我想如果我被判处死刑，我就会有律师。
And I might be able to get some publicity.
我也许能得到一些宣传。
And I might be able to overturn this wrong conviction I have.
我也许能够推翻这个错误的信念。
And if you read my penalty phase transcript, you'll see in there that I went out my way of making sure I received that death sentence.
如果你读过我的处罚阶段笔录，你会发现我竭尽全力确保我收到了死刑。
I actually have a transcript of your testimony right here.
实际上我这里有一份你的证词记录。
And it's really amazing what you say when you're on the stand.
当你在证人席上时所说的话真的很令人惊奇。
Like you say that you're not against the death penalty.
正如你所说，你并不反对死刑。
You say, here we go, I'm just going to quote directly.
你说那我们就直接引用吧。
You say, "I'm not speaking to keep from getting the death penalty.
你说：“我说话不是为了避免被判处死刑。
I still have certain beliefs.
我仍然有一定的信念。
I still believe that I should be held accounted for whatever I do.
我仍然相信，无论我做什么，我都应该承担责任。
If I rob, I'm not necessarily ashamed of it.
如果我抢劫，我不一定会感到羞耻。
And if I get caught, I'm not mad because I get some time because I knew what I was doing.
如果我被抓住，我不会生气，因为我有时间，因为我知道自己在做什么。
You know I'm sitting up here being tried for capital murder, which I was found to be convicted of.
你知道我正坐在这里接受谋杀罪的审判，我被判有罪。
Which means that it was proven I did it I guess.
这意味着我猜已经证明我做到了。
But I'm still sitting up here saying that I agree that if I'm found guilty for a crime, then I'm supposed to be punished for it.
但我仍然坐在这里说我同意如果我被判有罪，那么我应该为此受到惩罚。
And I believe in this society, I believe that I've been judged by my peers.
我相信这个社会，我相信我受到了同龄人的评判。
And I believe all that.
我相信这一切。
And I know right from wrong.
我知道是非。
You know I know all of this."
你知道我知道这一切。”
You see I was trying to get that death sentence.
你看，我正试图宣判死刑。
I wanted that.
我想要那个。
I mean everything I could think about that probably would hurt me, I said it.
我的意思是我能想到的一切都可能会伤害我，我说过。
I said it.
我说过了。
Here is a part in the transcript I'm just looking through.
这是我刚刚浏览的文字记录的一部分。
Hold on.
坚持，稍等。
Where you say-- this is just a really amazing thing to say to a jury.
你说的——这对陪审团来说真是一件令人惊奇的事情。
You say, "Well as far as me being convicted of capital murder, I don't hold no hard feelings toward the jury at all.
你说：“就我被判犯有死刑而言，我对陪审团一点也不怀有怨恨。
Let me say this here.
我就在这里说一下吧。
As long as they took the evidence and felt me guilty in their own minds as the evidence was presented to them, I don't hold no hard feelings towards them.
只要他们拿到了证据，并且在证据呈现给他们时，他们自己心里就觉得我有罪，我就不会对他们抱有任何怨恨。
I'm not against the death penalty." How much of a risk did you think you were taking?
我并不反对死刑。”您认为自己冒了多大的风险？
Where was the risk?
风险在哪里？
There was no risk involved.
没有涉及任何风险。
Well how much of a risk, how much of a chance did you think you had that you might get executed?
那么，你认为自己被处决的风险有多大、机会有多大？
I probably had a 99.9% chance of being executed.
我被处决的可能性大概是99.9%。
Just like I had a 99.9% chance of spending the rest of my life in prison.
就像我有99.9%的机会在监狱里度过余生一样。
So Joe gets what he wants.
所以乔得到了他想要的。
They sentence him to death.
他们判处他死刑。
And then his gamble begins.
然后他的赌博就开始了。
He's on death row five years, 10 years, 15 years.
他在死囚牢房里呆了五年、十年、十五年。
Watches friends there sent to die.
看着那里的朋友被送去送死。
And how close did he get to dying?
他距离死亡还有多远？
Oh man, don't even ask me that one.
天哪，别问我这个问题。
I got denied the District Court.
我被地方法院拒绝了。
Then i got denied the 8th Circuit.
然后我被第八巡回赛拒绝了。
But once you get denied by the United States Supreme Court, you have no more appeals.
但一旦被美国最高法院驳回，你就不能再上诉了。
There's nobody else to appeal that to.
没有其他人可以诉诸这一点。
And I had got denied by them.
而我却被他们拒绝了。
The same day I was informed I was denied, my lawyer told me then that the attorney general's office has already petitioned the Missouri Supreme Court to set me an execution date.
在我被告知被拒绝的同一天，我的律师告诉我，总检察长办公室已经向密苏里州最高法院请求确定我的执行日期。
And so you felt-- Joe Amrine I felt like I was history.
所以你觉得——乔·阿姆林（Joe Amrine），我觉得我已经成为历史了。
Yeah, I was history.
是的，我就是历史。
No doubt in my mind.
我心中毫无疑问。
I knew I was history.
我知道我已成为历史。
Everybody else knew I was history.
其他人都知道我已成为历史。
Actually there was an article here in The Pitch Weekly in Kansas City that said "So Long, Joe."
事实上，堪萨斯城的《球场周刊》上有一篇文章说“再见，乔”。
That was the cover of their article, "So Long, Joe."
这是他们文章《再见，乔》的封面。
Yeah, wow.
是的，哇。
And at that point, did you think maybe I made a mistake choosing the death penalty?
那时，你是否认为我选择死刑可能是一个错误？
It probably went through my mind 1,001 times.
它可能在我脑海中闪过 1,001 次。
But I guess the bottom line-- probably I came right back to the same conclusion.
但我猜底线是——可能我马上就得出了同样的结论。
It's done.
完成了。
I can't undo it.
我无法撤消它。
Don't get me wrong.
别误会我的意思。
There were many times where I wanted to just give up, lie in the middle of the floor and just say, I give.
有很多次我想放弃，躺在地板中间说，我放弃了。
Come and kill me.
来杀了我吧。
In the end, his plan worked just like he thought it would.
最终，他的计划果然如他所想的那样成功了。
A lawyer from a nonprofit group that does wrongful conviction cases took him on.
一位来自一家处理错误定罪案件的非营利组织的律师接待了他。
He got some press.
他得到了一些媒体的报道。
There was actually a documentary film about him.
实际上有一部关于他的纪录片。
And the Missouri Supreme Court took another look at the evidence in the case and freed him from prison in 2003 after 17 years.
密苏里州最高法院再次审查了该案的证据，并在 17 年后于 2003 年将他释放出狱。
All because he went for the death penalty in the first place, he says.
他说，这一切都是因为他一开始就选择了死刑。
So if you hadn't taken this risk during that trial, do you think you'd be free right now?
那么，如果你在那次审判期间没有冒这个风险，你认为你现在会自由吗？
No, no. Ira Glass You'd still be in there?
不，不。艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：你还会在那儿吗？
Yeah, with life in prison without the possibility of parole.
是的，终身监禁，不得假释。
I mean where would I to be able to gain some relief at?
我的意思是我可以在哪里获得一些缓解？
I mean I come from a very poor family.
我的意思是我来自一个非常贫穷的家庭。
I didn't really know anything about the law.
我真的对法律一无所知。
Who's going to come and represent me free?
谁来免费代表我？
That was the only route I could go.
那是我唯一能走的路。
I had no choice.
我别无选择。
Well today on our program, we bring you three stories of people who got backed into a corner.
今天在我们的节目中，我们为您带来三个被逼入绝境的人的故事。
And who, like Joe Amrine, made very counter-intuitive choices, choices most of us would never make.
他和乔·阿姆林一样，做出了非常违反直觉的选择，而我们大多数人永远不会做出这样的选择。
Sometimes, as you'll hear, it works out great.
有时，正如您所听到的，效果很好。
Sometimes it works out not so great.
有时效果并不那么好。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life distributed by Public Radio International.
这是来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Act One of our program today takes place in a nearly bankrupt sub shop in Seattle, a place where desperate action was necessary.
我们今天的节目第一幕发生在西雅图一家几近破产的分店里，在这个地方，必须采取绝望的行动。
Act Two, in a truck moving across the entire United States.
第二幕，乘坐卡车穿越整个美国。
The truck is suffering from what would seem like a nearly unworkable problem.
这辆卡车遇到了一个看似几乎无法解决的问题。
Act Three unfolds in an interrogation room at a top secret government agency.
第三幕在一个绝密政府机构的审讯室中展开。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, Working Class Hero Sandwich.
第一幕，工人阶级英雄三明治。
Dawna Lentz was 25, working at a Mexican restaurant for $8.60 an hour, which wasn't enough to pay her share of the rent and save for school.
道娜·伦茨 (Dawna Lentz) 25 岁，在一家墨西哥餐厅工作，每小时 8.6 美元，这不足以支付她应得的房租和学费。
And keep her 1986 Honda from falling apart.
并防止她的 1986 本田车崩溃。
So when she noticed a Quiznos franchise opening up across the parking lot from her job, she filled out an application.
因此，当她注意到工作地点停车场对面有一家 Quiznos 特许经营店开业时，她填写了一份申请。
It was supposed to be an easy second income.
这本来应该是一份轻松的第二收入。
Making sandwiches part time seemed simple enough.
兼职制作三明治似乎很简单。
But she ended up backed into this corner where she had to make the kind of decision you or I would probably never make.
但她最终陷入了这个困境，她必须做出你或我可能永远不会做出的决定。
Shirleen Holt tells what happened.
雪琳·霍尔特讲述了发生的事情。
The first hint that this store might run into problems was the job interview, or in Dawna's case, the lack of one.
这家商店可能遇到问题的第一个迹象是工作面试，或者在道娜的例子中，缺乏面试。
I went it.
我去了。
And he handed me the handbook.
然后他把手册递给了我。
And he goes, OK, I'll call you when we open the restaurant.
他说，好吧，餐厅开业后我会给你打电话。
I'm like, OK, that was the easiest interview I've ever been on.
我想，好吧，这是我参加过的最简单的采访。
The restaurant was owned by three immigrants from India.
这家餐厅的老板是三名来自印度的移民。
One was a likable but nervous man named Navi.
其中一个是一个可爱但紧张的男人，名叫纳维。
He was supposed to manage the place but he never ran a restaurant before.
他本来应该管理这个地方，但他以前从未经营过餐馆。
The others were a husband and wife team who were supposed to be silent partners.
其他人是一对夫妻，本该是沉默的伙伴。
To Dawna, Navi seemed to be doing well at first, but the partners didn't think so.
在 Dawna 看来，Navi 一开始似乎表现不错，但合伙人却不这么认为。
They would call him and say that he was spending too much money on food and not enough money was coming in.
他们会打电话给他，说他在食物上花了太多钱，但收入却不够。
Just nit picking about things.
只是对事情挑剔。
We would get wonderful scores on our evaluations when corporate would come in.
当企业介入时，我们的评估会得到很好的分数。
And they would pick them apart on him.
他们会在他身上挑剔他们。
He didn't smoke for five or six years.
他已经有五六年没有抽烟了。
He stopped smoking.
他戒烟了。
And then once he started at the restaurant, and they started giving him a hard time, he was smoking.
当他一进餐厅，他们就开始为难他，他就开始抽烟了。
He was throwing up before he was working.
他在工作之前就呕吐了。
He couldn't come into the store without getting sick.
他不可能不生病就进入商店。
He just was done with it.
他刚刚受够了。
One Sunday night about a month after the store opened, Navi pulled Dawna aside.
商店开业大约一个月后的一个周日晚上，纳维把多娜拉到一边。
And he was like, Dawna I can't do this anymore.
他说，道娜，我不能再这样做了。
They're making my life hard.
他们让我的生活变得艰难。
I miss my family.
我想念我的家人。
I want to go home to my wife.
我想回家见我的妻子。
And it's not worth it.
这是不值得的。
I'll give up all my money that I put into this.
我会放弃我投入的所有钱。
I'm just going to go.
我正要走了。
And I was like you can't go yet.
我就想你还不能走。
You're leaving me here.
你要把我留在这里。
I haven't been trained to do anything in this store for this company.
我没有接受过在这家商店为这家公司做任何事情的培训。
I don't know what they want.
我不知道他们想要什么。
And he was like I can't do it anymore.
他就像我不能再这样做了。
And so he says I'm sorry, I am leaving.
所以他说对不起，我要走了。
I quit.
我不干了。
So that's when things started going bad.
所以事情就从那时开始变得糟糕了。
Dawna called the other owners and told them what happened.
多娜给其他业主打电话，告诉他们发生了什么事。
And they took over, which only made things worse.
他们接管了，这只会让事情变得更糟。
The wife came in and started pushing the employees around.
妻子进来并开始推搡员工。
And saying they're not doing things right.
并说他们没有做正确的事情。
And we need to do things like this.
我们需要做这样的事情。
And she hung out for probably about an hour, if that, every day for a month.
她大概会出去玩大约一个小时，如果是的话，一个月里每天都会出去玩。
And then she was gone.
然后她就走了。
I called her and I was like, what am I supposed to do with this store?
我打电话给她，我想，我该怎么办这家商店？
Are you guys coming in?
你们进来吗？
Or what are you leaving me?
或者你要离开我什么？
And their exact words were, "Dawna, we're giving this store to you.
他们的原话是：“Dawna，我们把这家商店交给你了。
Take care of it." And I'm like, I don't know how.
照顾好它。”我想，我不知道该怎么做。
Dawna still doesn't know why the owners abandoned the store.
多娜仍然不知道店主为何放弃这家商店。
Maybe they were too busy with their other businesses.
也许他们太忙于其他事务。
Maybe they had money problems.
也许他们有金钱问题。
Whatever the reason, suddenly she and her crew were alone.
不管出于什么原因，突然之间，她和她的船员们只剩下孤身一人了。
By now, Dawna was working there full time.
到目前为止，多娜已经在那里全职工作了。
It was her only job.
这是她唯一的工作。
She called Quiznos' regional office every day, sometimes more.
她每天都给奎兹诺斯的地区办事处打电话，有时甚至更多。
They told here there was nothing they could do.
他们告诉这里他们无能为力。
They didn't own the business, the franchiser did.
他们并不拥有该企业，而是特许经营商拥有。
But Dawna and the other employees stayed, figuring help would come.
但多娜和其他员工留下来，认为援助会来的。
Her first duty as unofficial manager was to order food.
作为非官方经理，她的首要职责是点餐。
So I started talking to these distributors and stuff.
所以我开始与这些分销商之类的人交谈。
And I called them and I'm like, I've never done this before.
我打电话给他们，我说，我以前从未这样做过。
Help.
帮助。
And people are like, Oh don't worry.
人们会说，哦，别担心。
It's OK.
没关系。
We'll work with you.
我们将与您合作。
This is how Dawna learned how to run the business.
这就是 Dawna 学会如何经营企业的方式。
She asked questions.
她问了一些问题。
She improvised.
她即兴发挥。
And things were OK at first.
一开始一切都很好。
Food was coming in.
食物进来了。
The payroll service was sending checks.
工资管理服务正在发送支票。
Every day she'd deposit more money in the store's bank account than she was spending.
每天她在商店的银行账户里存的钱都比她花的钱多。
But what Dawna didn't know was that the account was being bled dry by automatic withdrawals.
但多娜不知道的是，该账户正在因自动提款而被榨干。
Quiznos corporate was taking its cut.
Quiznos 公司正在分一杯羹。
Then the lenders.
然后是贷款人。
Then even small things like the laundry service.
然后甚至是像洗衣服务这样的小事情。
It took about not even a full month for us to start going really rapidly downhill.
我们花了不到一个月的时间就开始快速走下坡路。
Things started bouncing through checking accounts.
事情开始通过支票账户发生变化。
So food wasn't coming in.
所以食物没有进来。
And they started making it pay on delivery.
他们开始实行货到付款。
And then we started getting, if you don't pay, we'll turn it off notices.
然后我们开始收到“如果您不付款，我们将关闭它”的通知。
Or, we'll stop serving you notices.
或者，我们将停止向您发送通知。
And also we got stuck with checks not being paid, bouncing checks.
而且我们还陷入了支票未支付、支票被退回的困境。
Our payday was on December 24, Christmas Eve.
我们的发薪日是 12 月 24 日，圣诞节前夕。
Everybody wants to go Christmas shopping.
每个人都想去圣诞购物。
So I gave them their checks.
所以我给了他们支票。
And they all went over to the bank and tried to cash their checks.
他们都去了银行并试图兑现支票。
And all the bank tellers laughed at them because there was no money in the account.
所有的银行柜员都嘲笑他们，因为账户里没有钱。
And so that's when we have to start taking money out of the drawer.
所以这时候我们就必须开始从抽屉里拿出钱了。
She pad employees out of the drawer.
她把员工从抽屉里拿出来。
She paid suppliers out of the drawer.
她从抽屉里向供应商付款。
She paid the rent out of the drawer.
她从抽屉里掏出了房租。
That got very, very slim pickings there.
那里的选择非常非常少。
My deposit turned into like $200 a night.
我的押金变成了每晚 200 美元左右。
And so probably after money started running dry, I was probably earning maybe $1 a day.
因此，在钱开始枯竭之后，我可能每天只能赚 1 美元。
And so that's when the employees started getting paid maybe every other night or every three nights.
因此，从那时起，员工开始可能每隔一晚或每三晚领取一次工资。
And that's when I lost the majority of my employees.
就在那时我失去了大部分员工。
Still, Dawna didn't quit.
尽管如此，多娜并没有放弃。
Not because she felt so loyal to Quiznos, and not because she loved the challenge.
并不是因为她对奎兹诺斯如此忠诚，也不是因为她喜欢挑战。
She stayed because the economy was tough.
她留下来是因为经济困难。
And she was worried she might not find another job, even a job that paid $1 a day was better than no job at all.
她担心自己可能找不到另一份工作，即使每天工资一美元的工作也比没有工作好。
Also--
还有——
I thought there was hope somewhere.
我以为某处还有希望。
Maybe this is just a phase.
也许这只是一个阶段。
But I didn't think it would ever get to the point that it did.
但我没想到事情会发展到这样的地步。
I visited the restaurant when things were at their worst.
我在事情最糟糕的时候去了这家餐厅。
And it was like walking into a store in Russia after the ruble collapsed.
这就像卢布崩溃后走进俄罗斯的一家商店一样。
Nothing on the shelves, hardly any customers, so quiet you could hear the appliances humming.
货架上什么也没有，几乎没有顾客，安静得你能听到电器的嗡嗡声。
It's weird to be in fast food place with a clean floors, and the brightly colored tables, and everything in its place except the food.
在快餐店里感觉很奇怪，地板干净，桌子颜色鲜艳，除了食物之外，所有东西都在它的位置上。
There were little handwritten signs all over the store.
店里到处都是手写的小标牌。
Each nozzle on the soda dispenser had its own "Out Of Order" note taped to it.
汽水机上的每个喷嘴上都贴有“故障”字条。
Except for Vanilla Coke.
除了香草可乐。
People hate Vanilla Coke.
人们讨厌香草可乐。
One customer, a tall professional woman, looked at the soda machine, laughed, and asked for a large, Out of Order.
一位顾客是一位身材高大的职业女性，她看着汽水机，笑了，然后要了一大杯，“Out of Order”。
"With ice or without?" Dawna deadpanned.
“加冰还是不加冰？”多娜面无表情。
We started writing signs to warn them beforehand, OK, they were out of this, this, this, this.
我们开始写标志事先警告他们，好吧，他们不能这样，这样，这样，这样。
Because how do you explain to somebody, I don't have any bread even though I'm a sub shop?
因为你如何向别人解释，尽管我是一家副店，但我没有面包？
Like, I'm sorry, I don't have any bread?
就像，对不起，我没有面包？
I don't even know where to start from that.
我什至不知道从哪里开始。
At the prep table, they only had that processed lunch meat turkey you get at a grocery store, some roast beef, but none of the normal Quiznos sauces.
在准备台上，他们只有在杂货店买到的加工过的午餐肉火鸡和一些烤牛肉，但没有普通的 Quiznos 酱汁。
No honey bourbon mustard, no zesty grill sauce, no creamy bacon Alfredo, no raspberry chipotle.
没有蜂蜜波旁芥末，没有浓郁的烧烤酱，没有阿尔弗雷多奶油培根，没有覆盆子墨西哥辣椒。
In the back room, it was just as bad.
在后面的房间里，情况也同样糟糕。
This is going to be cold.
这会很冷。
This is our freezer.
这是我们的冰箱。
There was one box, and that was Philly cheese steak.
有一个盒子，那就是费城奶酪牛排。
And that was it.
就是这样。
I had no cookies, no soups, no nothing.
我没有饼干，没有汤，什么都没有。
Right here is where soups are.
这里就是汤的地方。
When we were out of stuff, we didn't have soups, so there was nothing there.
当我们没东西的时候，我们没有汤，所以那里什么也没有。
There were no pots, no pans, no dishes, nothing.
没有锅，没有平底锅，没有盘子，什么都没有。
it was just empty.
它只是空的。
Right over here is where we would prep.
这里就是我们要准备的地方。
And it was usually empty because there was nothing to prep.
而且它通常是空的，因为没有什么可以准备的。
Dawna made a spreadsheet on her home computer.
多娜在她的家用电脑上制作了一个电子表格。
Every night, she'd subtract the day's costs from sales.
每天晚上，她都会从销售额中减去当天的成本。
The numbers always came up negative.
数字总是负数。
It frustrated her, kept her up at night.
这让她很沮丧，让她彻夜难眠。
Every morning with money from the till, Dawna bought lunch meat at Cash and Carry.
每天早上，多娜都会用收银台里的钱去现购自运购买午餐肉。
Then she'd drive to other Quiznos stores around Seattle for the special bread.
然后她会开车去西雅图周围的其他 Quiznos 商店购买特制面包。
She bought a few bags at a time, rationing the supply so the night crew would have enough for their shift.
她一次买了几袋，并定量供应，这样夜班人员就有足够的钱来轮班。
Not that the customers appreciated it.
并不是说顾客赞赏它。
At first people would just walk out.
起初人们只是走出去。
And then it got to the point where people are like, why are you even open?
然后人们就会问，你为什么还开放？
Why do you stay here?
你为什么留在这里？
And then after the first couple times of people getting irritated, I put up another sign telling them not to be mad at us.
在人们最初几次感到恼怒之后，我又竖起了另一个标语，告诉他们不要生我们的气。
It's not our fault.
这不是我们的错。
This is what the sign said.
牌子上是这么说的。
Dawna Lentz "Due to bad owners, we are out of a lot of things.
Dawna Lentz “由于糟糕的业主，我们失去了很多东西。
Please do not be mad at the employees or manager.
请不要对员工或经理生气。
We're really sorry, and please be patient."
我们真的很抱歉，请耐心等待。”
The day that we didn't have I think chicken or something, a customer came down and was like, you know what, you're good for nothing, incompetent.
那天我们没有吃鸡肉什么的，一位顾客下来说，你知道吗，你一无是处，无能。
What's the purpose of you even being here?
你来这里的目的是什么？
And I just looked at him and I was so shocked for words.
我只是看着他，我震惊得说不出话来。
I had nothing to say to him.
我对他无话可说。
And it hurt me.
这伤害了我。
It hit me really hard.
这对我打击很大。
Why?
为什么？
Dawna Lentz Because I was trying so hard and that people couldn't see that I was trying so hard.
Dawna Lentz：因为我非常努力，但人们看不到我如此努力。
I mean my employees saw it.
我的意思是我的员工看到了。
But the customers were just blowing it off like this was an everyday thing.
但顾客们却对此嗤之以鼻，就好像这是一件平常的事情一样。
And it wasn't.
但事实并非如此。
So what sort of person comes to a sandwich shop that doesn't have any food?
那么什么样的人会来到一家没有食物的三明治店呢？
When I visited the store back then, I saw a lot of first time customers, plus other people who worked in the strip mall who were curious to see how bad things were getting.
当我当时参观这家商店时，我看到了很多第一次来的顾客，还有其他在购物中心工作的人，他们很好奇事情会变得多么糟糕。
Then there were customers liked Tim, a local delivery man.
还有像当地送货员蒂姆这样的顾客。
For him, habit and convenience were apparently more important than quality, variety and freedom of choice.
对他来说，习惯和便利显然比质量、多样性和选择自由更重要。
I walk in the door, and whatever's left she made me to eat.
我走进门，她让我吃剩下的东西。
I still showed up.
我还是出现了。
I was here every day.
我每天都在这里。
And then every day it was one thing short of another.
然后每一天都是一件事比另一件事少。
Out of bread, and then it was out of meat.
面包没了，肉也没有了。
And then it was one thing or another.
然后是一件事或另一件事。
Yeah, I was wondering if I was going to get a napkin with some lettuce on it.
是的，我想知道是否要拿一张上面有生菜的餐巾。
So I wasn't for sure.
所以我不确定。
Dawna kept calling the Quiznos people.
多娜不断给奎兹诺斯人打电话。
One Sunday, she told them she'd run out of bread.
一个周日，她告诉他们她的面包已经用完了。
Again, they told her they couldn't step in.
他们再次告诉她他们不能介入。
Bread or no bread, she had to keep the store open.
不管有没有面包，她都必须让商店继续营业。
Then the media got a hold of the story and suddenly, everything changed.
然后媒体知道了这个故事，突然间，一切都改变了。
Quiznos headquarters sent in reinforcements, brought in food, paid the workers back wages.
奎兹诺斯总部派出了增援部队，运来了食物，还给工人们发工资。
I never saw more people here in my life.
我一生中从未见过更多的人。
Again, Tim, the customer and delivery man.
再说一遍，蒂姆，顾客兼送货员。
They were so over-staffed it was unbelievable.
他们人手过多，令人难以置信。
They had people just standing around just to ask you, Hey, how are you doing?
他们有人只是站在那里问你，嘿，你好吗？
And they were blowing smoke talking about, Oh, as soon as we heard, we rushed right on down here and took care of it.
他们喋喋不休地说，哦，我们一听说，就冲到这里来处理它。
And I lose my job if I took that long to get a package to somebody, you know what I'm saying?
如果我花了那么长时间才给别人送包裹，我就会丢掉工作，你知道我在说什么吗？
I tried to speak with one of the Quiznos people Dawna dealt with, but was redirected to a spokesperson, Stacie Lange, Quiznos vice president of public relations.
我试图与 Dawna 打交道的 Quiznos 人员之一交谈，但被转接给了发言人 Stacie Lange，她是 Quiznos 公共关系副总裁。
Unfortunately, we had a glitch in our system where the regionalized people did not communicate the information back to corporate about what was going on.
不幸的是，我们的系统存在一个故障，区域人员没有将正在发生的情况的信息传达给公司。
Otherwise we would have stepped in a lot sooner with support.
否则我们会更早介入并提供支持。
The best we can ascertain of why it didn't communicate back to corporate is that the regional folks were aware that we had a new franchise owner in the system who is supposedly only weeks away from assuming responsibility of this store.
我们能确定的最好原因是，地区人员知道我们系统中有一位新的特许经营权所有者，据推测，他距离承担这家商店的责任只有几周的时间了。
And they recognized that Dawna and the team had things going very well at the store from their perspective.
他们认识到，从他们的角度来看，Dawna 和团队在商店里一切进展顺利。
Well in their case, they were keeping things operating by their standards.
就他们而言，他们按照自己的标准保持运作。
Clearly not by corporate standards.
显然不符合企业标准。
Stacie explained that after all this happened, Quiznos flew Dawna to its headquarters in Denver.
史黛西解释说，这一切发生后，奎兹诺斯用飞机将 Dawna 送到了位于丹佛的总部。
She got to meet the company president, and she went through formal management training.
她见到了公司总裁，并接受了正式的管理培训。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
What had happened is there's a bump in pay, hourly pay, for a manager position versus a line employee.
所发生的情况是，经理职位的工资（小时工资）与一线员工的工资有所提高。
So she was able to reap the benefits of that.
所以她能够从中受益。
The benefit was a $1 raise to $8.60 an hour, the same that Dawna was making at the Mexican restaurant five months earlier.
福利是每小时加薪 1 美元，达到 8.60 美元，与五个月前 Dawna 在墨西哥餐厅的工资相同。
She wasn't paid overtime for the 12 hour days she worked.
她每天工作 12 小时，却没有得到加班费。
She wasn't compensated for the customer abuse or the pressure from vendors who wanted their money.
她没有因为顾客的虐待或想要钱的供应商的压力而得到补偿。
But in a weird way, those struggles brought their own kind of reward.
但以一种奇怪的方式，这些挣扎带来了自己的回报。
After years of minimum wage jobs, getting ordered around by all sorts of people, it's useful to learn that the bosses and owners don't know anything you couldn't figure out on your own.
经过多年的最低工资工作，受到各种各样的人的命令，了解老板和业主不知道任何你自己无法弄清楚的事情是很有用的。
Dawna had stopped thinking of herself as a line worker.
多娜不再认为自己是一名生产线工人。
And she'd started thinking of herself as a manager.
她开始将自己视为一名经理。
I didn't need anybody else.
我不需要其他人。
I needed money, but who doesn't?
我需要钱，但谁不需要呢？
But I didn't need anybody else.
但我不需要其他人。
I was on a major test of my whole life.
我正在经历人生的一次重大考验。
And taking on something like that was a big responsibility.
承担这样的事情是一个很大的责任。
And it was dropped on me.
它落在了我身上。
And I do understand that.
我确实理解这一点。
But I chose to stick it in there.
但我选择把它放在那里。
And so therefore I chose that responsibility.
因此我选择了这个责任。
And I feel it would look good on an application, voluntary work for a sub shop.
我觉得申请一个分店的志愿工作会很不错。
Where else could you get something like that?
你还能在哪里得到这样的东西？
Eventually the publicity died down.
最终，舆论逐渐平息。
And when it did, the corporate people left.
当事情发生时，公司人员就离开了。
And again, Dawna and the others were on their own, still paying themselves out of the till, still coming up short.
再一次，多娜和其他人只能靠自己，仍然从收银台里掏钱给自己付钱，但仍然不够。
For a while it looked like the company had found a buyer.
有一段时间，该公司似乎找到了买家。
Then the deal fell through.
然后这笔交易就失败了。
Dawna thought about buying the place herself.
多娜考虑过自己买下这个地方。
She even talked to people at the bank.
她甚至与银行的人交谈。
But she didn't earn enough to qualify for the loan.
但她的收入不足以获得贷款。
So six months after it opened, Quiznos shop on Holman Road, "My Store," as Dawna used to call it, shut down.
因此，开业六个月后，位于霍尔曼路的 Quiznos 商店（Dawna 称之为“我的商店”）就关门了。
Dawna took a manager in training job at Radio Shack making $8 an hour plus commission.
Dawna 在 Radio Shack 担任了一名经理的培训工作，每小时收入 8 美元，外加佣金。
She's still waiting for her last paycheck from Quiznos.
她仍在等待奎兹诺斯发来的最后一笔薪水。
Shirleen Holt is a business reporter at the Seattle Times.
雪琳·霍尔特是《西雅图时报》的商业记者。
[MUSIC - "INVINCIBLE" BY OK GO] Coming up, backed into a corner on thousands of miles of interstate highway.
[音乐 - OK GO 的“INVINCIBLE”] 即将到来，在数千英里的州际高速公路上倒退到一个角落。
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life .
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program of course we choose a theme, bring you a variety of different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，每周我们的节目都会选择一个主题，为您带来有关该主题的各种不同类型的故事。
Today's program, Backed Into a Corner, stories of people who are forced into making decisions they really do not want to make.
今天的节目《退到角落》讲述了人们被迫做出他们真正不想做的决定的故事。
We've arrive at Act Two of our program.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act Two, Don't Drive Like My Brother.
第二幕，别像我哥哥那样开车。
Like our story in Act One, this is a story about somebody who just needed a job.
就像我们在第一幕中的故事一样，这是一个关于一个只需要一份工作的人的故事。
And that is what put him into the position where he ended up doing things that most of us would probably avoid.
这就是让他最终做出我们大多数人可能会避免的事情的原因。
Charles Johnson had a wife and daughter.
查尔斯·约翰逊有妻子和女儿。
And he was out of work, and he looked around.
他失业了，他环顾四周。
And he was so desperate that he ended up in a job where he lacked one crucial qualification, a critical qualification you'd think.
他是如此绝望，以至于他最终得到了一份缺乏一项关键资格的工作，一个你认为的关键资格。
And yet somehow he made it work for years.
但不知何故，他多年来一直做到了这一点。
Jonathan Menjivar explains.
乔纳森·门吉瓦尔解释道。
Charles Johnson was a trucker, a long haul trucker who went everywhere.
查尔斯·约翰逊是一名卡车司机，一个到处跑的长途卡车司机。
And he did it without knowing how to read.
他在不知道如何阅读的情况下做到了这一点。
Couldn't read highway signs.
无法阅读高速公路标志。
Couldn't read a map.
无法阅读地图。
It got him into all sorts of trouble, like when he was hauling stuff to New Jersey from New York and had no idea how to decipher the signs on the George Washington Bridge.
这给他带来了各种各样的麻烦，比如当他从纽约把东西拖到新泽西时，不知道如何解读乔治华盛顿大桥上的标志。
Hundreds of feet in the air, 12 lanes of traffic, and he's hauling 80,000 pounds, enough weight that you never forget it's there.
数百英尺高的空中，12 条车道，他拖着 80,000 磅的重量，足够的重量让你永远不会忘记它的存在。
So I got mixed up.
所以我就搞混了。
So I had to call a truck, Mayday, mayday.
所以我不得不打电话叫卡车，求救，求救。
I'm up on the bridge.
我在桥上。
I'm stuck.
我被困住了。
Get me down.
让我下来。
Get me down.
让我下来。
I'm trying to go Jersey.
我正想去泽西岛。
If I miss it, I have to go all the way back around.
如果我错过了，我就得绕道回去。
And I always thought of that, I said here I am up here and can't read.
我一直想到这一点，我说我在这儿，无法读书。
Would anyone believe this?
有人会相信这个吗？
He was just one of those kids who never caught on to reading.
他只是那些从未开始读书的孩子之一。
He grew up poor in Clarendon, Arkansas, where his family worked as sharecroppers.
他在阿肯色州克拉伦登长大，家境贫寒，全家都是佃农。
Charles had asthma, was a sickly kid.
查尔斯患有哮喘，是一个体弱多病的孩子。
And he stayed home from school a lot.
他经常不上学呆在家里。
And by the third grade, it was pretty clear he wasn't keeping up.
到了三年级，很明显他没有跟上。
As he got older he was so good at sports, pulling in 30 points a game for the basketball team, they just passed him from grade to grade.
随着年龄的增长，他非常擅长运动，为篮球队每场比赛拿下 30 分，他们从一个年级到另一个年级都超过了他。
By his 30's, he'd moved to St. Louis and got married and did a bunch of different jobs.
30 多岁时，他搬到了圣路易斯，结婚了，还做过很多不同的工作。
He washed dishes for a while.
他洗了一会儿碗。
For about six months he ran a gas station his brother owned.
他经营了他兄弟拥有的一家加油站大约六个月。
But it never seemed like he could support a family on any of those jobs.
但他似乎从来都无法通过这些工作来养家糊口。
His brother Paul was making good money as a truck driver.
他的兄弟保罗作为一名卡车司机赚了很多钱。
And it seemed to Charles like it was something he could do too.
在查尔斯看来，这似乎是他也能做到的事情。
He found out that this trucking company, JH Ware, was training and hiring drivers.
他发现这家货运公司 JH Ware 正在培训和雇用司机。
So he signed up.
于是他就报名了。
The details he didn't understand, like the words on the truck's instrument panel, he just ignored.
他不明白的细节，比如卡车仪表盘上的字，他就忽略了。
The gauges, whatever they were saying, you really, really didn't pay that much attention.
仪表，无论他们说什么，你真的、真的没有那么注意。
They was just there.
他们就在那里。
You just know that you have to work and make a living.
你只知道你必须工作并谋生。
You know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
I mean you aren't going to let no gauges stop $400 or $500 coming in your home for a week.
我的意思是，您不会让任何计量表阻止您家一周内有 400 或 500 美元流入。
And I just knew I could do the manual part, how to shift a 21-speed, 9-speed.
我只知道我可以做手动部分，如何换档 21 速、9 速。
But then we'd go in the classroom and I would flunk.
但当我们走进教室时，我就会不及格。
I would fail everything.
我会让一切都失败。
I didn't know what they were talking about.
我不知道他们在说什么。
How to get this stuff off of paper and put it down.
如何将这些东西从纸上取下并放下。
I couldn't do it.
我做不到。
What made this even harder is that at the time, no one knew Charles couldn't read.
让事情变得更加困难的是，当时没有人知道查尔斯不识字。
Not his wife, not any of his friends, nobody.
不是他的妻子，不是他的任何朋友，没有人。
So it's not like he could just ask for extra help from a teacher because he'd risk outing himself.
所以他不能向老师寻求额外的帮助，因为他会冒着暴露自己的风险。
Luckily for him, he did have an older brother, a really, really nice older brother.
对他来说幸运的是，他有一个哥哥，一个非常非常好的哥哥。
A lady from the personnel office at JH Ware called me.
JH Ware 人事办公室的一位女士给我打电话。
This is Paul Kelly, Charles' oldest brother, the one who had always found jobs for him and helped him out.
这是保罗·凯利，查尔斯的大哥，总是为他找到工作并帮助他摆脱困境的人。
Paul's also been driving a truck for 30 years.
Paul 也拥有 30 年卡车驾驶经验。
OK she says your brother is trying to get a job with us.
好吧，她说你哥哥想在我们这里找份工作。
And asked me if there was any way that I could come and attend the class that he was taking for a week.
他问我是否可以参加他为期一周的课程。
And she says, I would sure give him a job if you come down and help him.
她说，如果你下来帮助他，我肯定会给他一份工作。
And I said well I'm working right now.
我说好吧，我现在正在工作。
So what I did, I took a week's vacation off.
所以我做了一周的假期。
I got my gear together.
我把我的装备整理好了。
And I went down to Fullerton, Missouri and I spent a week in class with him.
我去了密苏里州富勒顿，和他一起上了一周的课。
The orientation did require some reading.
入职培训确实需要一些阅读。
I was sitting right there basically by him and making sure that everything that he checked was correct.
我基本上就坐在他旁边，确保他检查的一切都是正确的。
And what they would do is give you a world map and ask you the closest route to a certain place in the United States.
他们会做的就是给你一张世界地图，并询问你到美国某个地方的最近路线。
How would you get there?
你怎样才能到达那里？
And I had to teach him the straight line is the closest route to any place.
我必须教他直线是到任何地方最近的路线。
Did it seem like he was reading along with you even if he was slow?
尽管他读得很慢，但看起来他是在和你一起读吗？
Exactly.
确切地。
Jonathan Menjivar Once the week of classes was done, Paul took Charles on a trial run down to Atlanta.
乔纳森·门吉瓦尔 (Jonathan Menjivar) 一周的课程结束后，保罗带着查尔斯试跑到亚特兰大。
They drove back through the Carolinas, up over Black Mountain in Tennessee, where Paul taught Charles how to ride the air in his brakes properly so that they wouldn't burn up.
他们开车穿过卡罗莱纳州，翻越田纳西州的黑山，保罗在那里教查尔斯如何正确地踩住刹车中的空气，以免刹车烧毁。
How to put it in grandma to slow down.
怎么放到奶奶那里才能慢下来。
Miraculously, Charles passed the written part of the driving test, which was multiple choice.
查尔斯奇迹般地通过了驾驶考试的笔试部分，这是多项选择题。
He used a special technique.
他使用了一种特殊的技术。
He got the job.
他得到了这份工作。
So there he was, license in hand and really no idea how he was going to pull it off.
所以他就在那里，手里拿着许可证，但真的不知道他将如何实现这一目标。
The job worked like this.
工作是这样进行的。
The dispatcher gave him what truckers call a bill, which listed the address he was supposed to deliver to and when they expected him.
调度员给了他一份卡车司机所谓的账单，上面列出了他应该送货的地址以及他们预计的时间。
That's it.
就是这样。
No directions, no advice at all about how to get there.
没有方向，也没有关于如何到达那里的建议。
Sometimes if he had seen the name of the state before, Charles could make it out on the bill.
有时，如果查尔斯以前见过这个州的名字，他就能在账单上认出来。
Sometimes he couldn't but his dispatcher would say enough so they knew we had to go to Kansas City, and that he should head west.
有时他不能，但他的调度员会说得够多了，这样他们就知道我们必须去堪萨斯城，而他应该向西走。
And then you go around truck drivers and you say, I'm going to Kansas City.
然后你绕过卡车司机说，我要去堪萨斯城。
Anybody going?
有人去吗？
And then one person would say, yeah come over here.
然后一个人会说，是的，过来吧。
And so I'd say, man, when are you going to take off?
所以我会说，伙计，你什么时候要起飞？
He'd say, I'm going to take off in about two hours.
他会说，我大约两个小时后就要起飞。
I'd say can you wait on me?
我想说你能等我一下吗？
I'll try to go with you.
我会尝试和你一起去。
He'd say, well yeah I'll wait on you.
他会说，好吧，我会等你。
You'll be my back man.
你将成为我的后盾。
We'll talk on the radio all the way up.
我们将在广播中一直讨论。
That's how you get there too.
你也是这样到达那里的。
But still, those methods only work some of the time.
但这些方法仍然只在某些时候有效。
And that's where his brother Paul came in.
这就是他的兄弟保罗进来的地方。
So what Charles would do if he had a problem with his directions, well he would call me and say, hey Paul, I'm going to this place.
如果查尔斯对方向有疑问，他会怎么做，他会打电话给我说，嘿保罗，我要去这个地方。
How do I get there?
我怎样才能到达那里？
The first time he called me, I believe it was about the second or third day.
他第一次打电话给我，我相信是在第二天或第三天。
I sad hello Paul.
我很难过你好保罗。
And he said, yeah, what's going on?
他说，是的，发生了什么事？
Paul, I have a load going to, I want to say, Philadelphia.
保罗，我想说，我有一大堆东西要去费城。
And then he said you going to Philly.
然后他说你要去费城。
Well you take route boom, boom, boom.
好吧，你走的是繁荣、繁荣、繁荣的路线。
You're going to take Interstate 70 to New Stanton.
您将走 70 号州际公路前往新斯坦顿。
New Stanton you pick up Interstate 76.
新斯坦顿 (New Stanton) 沿 76 号州际公路行驶。
And you take 76.
你拿了76。
You get over to Breezewood, Pennsylvania.
您将前往宾夕法尼亚州的布里兹伍德。
All right, let's stop that right there.
好吧，我们就此打住吧。
Now if you're a person who reads, you'd be writing all this down.
现在，如果你是一个读书的人，你就会把所有这些写下来。
And Paul always assumed that's what Charles was doing.
保罗一直认为查尔斯就是这么做的。
I want to say he was writing it down.
我想说他正在写下来。
Because he would repeat it.
因为他会重复这句话。
Let me tell you now, I'm sitting at home, I don't know.
现在让我告诉你，我坐在家里，我不知道。
He got there.
他到了那里。
I had my ABCs down.
我的 ABC 都记下来了。
Jonathan Menjivar Charles couldn't read, but he knew his alphabet.
乔纳森·门吉瓦尔·查尔斯不识字，但他认识字母表。
He just had to coax someone into spelling the words for him.
他只需哄骗某人帮他拼出这些单词即可。
Then I'd tell him, how do you spell that again?
然后我会告诉他，你再拼写一遍这个词怎么拼写？
Or something like that.
或者类似的东西。
And he'd tell me, C-I-T-Y, city.
他会告诉我，C-I-T-Y，城市。
I could write that down.
我可以把它写下来。
He wasn't a worrisome person that had to get me out the bed 24/7.
他不是一个需要24/7 全天候让我起床的令人担忧的人。
But I got up quite a bit.
但我还是站了起来。
So actually I was his man map by phone.
所以实际上我是他通过电话的男人地图。
Matter of fact, I had a map out just for him.
事实上，我专门为他准备了一张地图。
Yeah I had a map at home just for Charles on my dinner table.
是的，我家里的餐桌上有一张专为查尔斯准备的地图。
Paul says Charles would call him three or four times a week.
保罗说查尔斯每周会给他打电话三到四次。
And sometimes as often as 10 times a week.
有时甚至每周 10 次。
But even with Paul's help, Charles had a hard time making sense of the route.
但即使有保罗的帮助，查尔斯还是很难理解这条路线。
He still had to make the place names correspond to what he was seeing on those big green signs over the highway, which he calls boards.
他仍然必须使地名与他在高速公路上那些巨大的绿色标志（他称之为“牌”）上看到的相符。
He could read numbers.
他能读懂数字。
And sometimes he could recognize a word.
有时他能认出一个词。
But it wasn't exactly reading.
但这并不完全是阅读。
It was like matching up.
就像匹配一样。
Pennsylvania on my paper.
宾夕法尼亚州在我的纸上。
Then it would be on the board there.
然后它就会出现在黑板上。
You are now on the Pennsylvania Turnpike.
您现在位于宾夕法尼亚州收费公路上。
And it would match up so I knew I was there.
它会匹配，所以我知道我在那里。
As far as reading it, no.
就阅读而言，没有。
But even when he got to the city or town on his bill, he still wasn't done.
但即使他拿着账单到达了城市或城镇，他仍然没有完成。
Now he had to find out the exact address.
现在他必须找出确切的地址。
On his bill for instance, it would say 1925 Light Road.
例如，在他的账单上，会写着“1925 Light Road”。
But Charles didn't know that, so he'd have to ask somebody.
但查尔斯不知道这一点，所以他必须去问别人。
Usually his best bet was to find a cop.
通常他最好的选择就是找警察。
I would give it to the police officer.
我会把它交给警察。
And he would say, oh Light Road right down there.
他会说，哦，光路就在那里。
Then I got Light Road in my head and I don't forget it.
然后我的脑海里浮现出《Light Road》，我不会忘记它。
And so he said go here.
所以他说去这里。
I said, could you write it down for me?
我说，你能帮我写下来吗？
So Charles figured out a way to do the job.
于是查尔斯想出了一个办法来完成这项工作。
But the way he was making it work was also making him fail at the job because he was always late.
但他的工作方式也让他的工作失败了，因为他总是迟到。
And when you are late, they take late payments out of your check.
当您迟到时，他们会从您的支票中扣除逾期付款。
And so I'd call my wife, say, you get to check?
所以我会打电话给我的妻子，说，你去检查一下吗？
She said, yeah I got it.
她说，是的，我明白了。
It was so small.
它是如此之小。
I didn't say honey I can't read.
我没说亲爱的我看不懂。
I had to shut my mouth.
我不得不闭嘴。
It was a nightmare.
这是一场噩梦。
I couldn't read.
我无法阅读。
I was confused on the road.
我在路上很迷茫。
Wasn't bringing enough money in.
没有带足够的钱进来。
The loads was always late.
货物总是迟到。
Confusion, confusion, confusion.
混乱，混乱，混乱。
What can you do?
你能做什么？
Did you ever feel like you should just quit?
你有没有想过你应该放弃？
Every day, no matter what Jonathan-- I'd say I have to do it.
每一天，无论发生什么事，乔纳森——我都会说我必须这样做。
I took the bills.
我接过账单。
I told the old lady and my daughter that I would be going to New York.
我告诉老太太和女儿我要去纽约。
And I had to get to New York.
我必须去纽约。
So he was only driving a truck to keep his family together.
所以他开卡车只是为了让家人团聚。
But he never made good money at it.
但他从来没有赚过很多钱。
And being away from home so much ended up hurting his marriage.
离家太远最终损害了他的婚姻。
Before long, he and his wife split up.
不久，他和妻子分手了。
He quit trucking after he fell asleep at the wheel and drifted into a ditch.
在开车时睡着并漂进沟里后，他放弃了卡车运输。
His brother Paul was glad he finally quit.
他的兄弟保罗很高兴他终于辞职了。
He'd worried about him every day he was on the road.
每天路上，他都担心他。
And when he looks back on it, he's not sure why he never figured out that Charles couldn't read.
当他回想起来时，他不知道为什么他从来没有弄清楚查尔斯不识字。
And why I felt like that, I don't have a clue.
而为什么我会有这样的感觉，我也不知道。
That's strange, isn't it?
这很奇怪，不是吗？
Charles was-- I don't know if you spent much time around a person who's not that intelligent as far as books go and reading.
查尔斯——我不知道你是否花了很多时间和一个在书籍和阅读方面都不那么聪明的人在一起。
Growing up in our environment, there was quite a bit of this around.
在我们的环境中长大，周围有很多这样的事情。
And it was something that we didn't pay special attention to.
这是我们没有特别注意的事情。
So Charles is news I guess to your guys' ears.
所以我想查尔斯对你们来说是个新闻。
But like I say, I worked around it all my life.
但就像我说的，我一生都在努力解决这个问题。
And these guys can fake you out.
这些人可以欺骗你。
I mean you don't really have a clue that they don't really understand how to read.
我的意思是，你根本不知道他们并不真正理解如何阅读。
And he actually got away with it.
而他实际上侥幸逃脱了惩罚。
It frightens me more now than it did then because I didn't know much about it.
现在我比以前更害怕，因为我对此了解不多。
But now when he told me that he was having such a problem, then I have feelings for him.
但现在当他告诉我他有这样的问题时，我就对他产生了感情。
So where are we going to go?
那么我们要去哪里呢？
I know the direction.
我知道方向。
This is south we're headed.
这是我们要去的南方。
Charles reads now.
查尔斯正在读书。
So driving is different for him.
所以驾驶对他来说是不同的。
And so he took me for a drive to show me what that was like.
于是他带我开车兜风，让我看看那是什么样子。
So before when you would drive down, would you be able to tell what--
所以在你开车下山之前，你能说出什么——
I wouldn't notice any of those signs.
我不会注意到任何这些迹象。
All I did was notice my target from A to Z.
我所做的就是从头到尾注意我的目标。
Now as far as reading the signs like "For Sale" right here, I didn't read that.
现在就读到这里的“出售”这样的标志，我没有读到。
I didn't read no "For Sale," it just was a blank.
我没有读到“待售”，它只是一片空白。
Now when I travel along the expressway and I'm going down the road, which I've been down there blind.
现在，当我沿着高速公路行驶并沿着那条路走时，我一直盲目地走下去。
Now I got some eyes.
现在我有了一些眼睛。
I'm seeing some I'm reading like, Kentucky, 40 miles away.
我看到一些我正在阅读的内容，比如 40 英里外的肯塔基州。
When you get there it says "Welcome to Kentucky." I said I passed this place over and over and I just came on in.
当你到达那里时，上面写着“欢迎来到肯塔基州”。我说我一遍又一遍地经过这个地方，然后我就进来了。
So it's is so much different today.
所以今天的情况有很大不同。
It's so much different today.
今天的情况有很大不同。
We go to make a right turn, but then Charles sees a familiar black and white sign.
我们准备右转，但随后查尔斯看到了一个熟悉的黑白标志。
Now I see "One Way." That means I can't go there.
现在我看到了“单向”。这意味着我不能去那里。
I would have gone in there when I couldn't read.
当我无法阅读时，我会去那里。
Yeah, I've been on plenty one ways.
是的，我已经用过很多种方法了。
And it says "One Way." And the police come down.
它说“一种方式”。然后警察就下来了。
And I said, "Officer, I'm so sorry.
我说：“警官，我很抱歉。
I didn't see the signs."
我没有看到迹象。”
How much easier does it make getting around the city?
游览这座城市有多容易？
Oh man, it's just that you're alive.
噢，伙计，只是你还活着。
I don't know if it's so much easier, it's just that you are alive.
我不知道这是否容易得多，只是你还活着。
After he quit trucking, Charles went through a really rough period.
退出卡车运输业后，查尔斯经历了一段非常艰难的时期。
And then 10 years ago, he sort of pulled himself together.
十年前，他终于振作起来。
He applied for a civil service job, but he failed the entrance exam so badly that it was finally clear to someone that he couldn't read.
他申请了一份公务员工作，但他入学考试失利，最终有人发现他不识字。
He was 45 years old.
他今年 45 岁。
That's how long it took.
这就是花了多长时间。
Instead of a job, they handed him an address for a literacy program.
他们没有给他一份工作，而是给了他一个扫盲计划的地址。
He still goes there all the time.
他仍然经常去那里。
He tells me he's reading this book for a class there.
他告诉我他正在那里的一堂课上读这本书。
And when he pulls it out of his briefcase, it's not what I expected.
当他从公文包里拿出它时，这不是我所期望的。
What book am I reading now?
我现在在读什么书？
I have to do a report on this simple book, this simple book called Dr. Seuss .
我必须对这本简单的书做一个报告，这本简单的书叫做苏斯博士。
"One fish, two fish, red fish, blue fish." If I were to show that to people, they will say, wow.
“一条鱼，两条鱼，红鱼，蓝鱼。”如果我向人们展示这一点，他们会说，哇。
I don't know.
我不知道。
They would really try to embarrass you.
他们真的会试图让你难堪。
But at home by myself, I'm happy with just reading this.
但独自在家时，我很高兴读到这篇文章。
This is better than reading anything at all.
这比阅读任何东西都要好。
Just a simple book.
只是一本简单的书。
It says, "One fish, two fish, red fish, blue fish." And then it has the colors.
上面写着：“一条鱼，两条鱼，红鱼，蓝鱼。”然后它就有了颜色。
That's what helps me a whole lot.
这对我有很大帮助。
I look at the pictures.
我看照片。
That, no. "The fat one has a yellow hat."
那个，不。 “那个胖子有一顶黄帽子。”
Charles told me that his whole life he felt like a fake.
查尔斯告诉我，他一生都感觉自己像个骗子。
And that that was frightening and exhausting.
那是令人恐惧和疲惫的。
Now he says he feels liberated.
现在他说他感到自由了。
And even just being able to read this little bit, or being able to make out his phone bill or follow the instructions on his prescription bottles, makes his life so much easier.
即使只是能够阅读这一点，或者能够弄清楚他的电话帐单或按照他的处方瓶上的说明进行操作，都会让他的生活变得更加轻松。
Like he'd been traveling in a foreign country all this time and now he's home Everything is different.
就像他一直在异国他乡旅行，现在他回到家一样，一切都不同了。
Now when he gets lost, he says, he can read his way back.
他说，现在当他迷路时，他可以通过阅读找到回来的路。
Jonathan Menjivar in Chicago.
乔纳森·门吉瓦尔在芝加哥。
[MUSIC - "BIG TRUCK DRIVER" BY MYSTIKAL]
[音乐 - MYSTIKAL 的“大卡车司机”]
Act Three, Confessions of a Not-Very-Dangerous Mind.
第三幕，一个不太危险的心灵的自白。
Well sometimes we're backed into a corner by circumstance.
有时候我们会因为环境而陷入困境。
Sometimes we're backed into a corner by others conspiring against us.
有时，我们会被其他密谋反对我们的人逼到墙角。
And sometimes we just put ourselves there all on our own.
有时我们只是把自己放在自己的位置上。
This is that kind of story.
这就是这样的故事。
We have in this story a 22 year old taking a lie detector test, a polygraph.
在这个故事中，一名 22 岁的年轻人正在接受测谎仪测试。
It's part of a job interview for a job that he wants more than anything.
这是他最想要的工作面试的一部分。
And the harder he tries to do well, the worse he does.
他越努力想做好，却做得越差。
In the story we call him Matt for reasons that will become clear soon enough.
在故事中，我们称他为马特，原因很快就会明朗。
Matt is not his real name.
马特不是他的真名。
His friend Brian Montopolis tells this story.
他的朋友布莱恩·蒙托波利斯讲述了这个故事。
A warning to sensitive listeners that at some point in this story, it mentions the existence of pornography.
警告敏感的听众，在这个故事的某个时刻，它提到了色情作品的存在。
In high school, Matt wasn't one of those perfect kids who never made a resume-tarnishing wrong move.
高中时，马特并不是那种完美的孩子，从来没有做出过任何有损简历的错误举动。
For one thing, he was a pothead, a big one.
一方面，他是个瘾君子，而且是个大瘾君子。
And it wasn't just pot he was into.
他不仅仅喜欢大麻。
He tried mushrooms, acid, Ritalin, even air fresheners.
他尝试过蘑菇、酸、利他林，甚至空气清新剂。
Pretty much anything he could get his hands on.
几乎所有他能拿到手的东西。
But in his freshman year of college, everything changed.
但在他大学一年级的时候，一切都发生了变化。
He decided what he wanted to do with his life, intelligence work.
他决定了自己一生的志向：情报工作。
And he quit the drugs cold turkey.
他彻底戒掉了毒品。
He studied international security, and picked up a language that would help him get a job.
他学习了国际安全，并学习了一门有助于他找到工作的语言。
I actually flipped a coin between Chinese and Arabic knowing that those two languages were both in high demand for the intelligence community.
事实上，我在中文和阿拉伯语之间抛硬币，因为我知道情报界对这两种语言都有很高的需求。
And it came up Chinese.
然后就出现了中文。
This was before 9/11 so I've been kicking myself ever since.
那是在 9/11 之前，所以从那时起我就一直在责备自己。
He ended up at one of the best graduate programs in the country for foreign relations.
他最终获得了该国最好的外交关系研究生课程之一。
And the hard work paid off.
努力得到了回报。
He was offered a job as an intelligence analyst at the National Security Agency.
他获得了国家安全局情报分析师的职位。
Now all that stood between him and his dream job was a background check and a grueling three day battery of tests.
现在，阻碍他实现梦想工作的只是背景调查和一系列为期三天的艰苦测试。
The first day was an IQ test.
第一天是智商测试。
The second, a psychiatric evaluation.
第二，精神评估。
And the third was a polygraph, a lie detector test.
第三个是测谎仪，测谎仪测试。
The first two days went really well.
头两天过得非常顺利。
He felt great.
他感觉很棒。
But the night before the polygraph, he started getting anxious.
但在测谎的前一天晚上，他开始变得焦虑。
He'd heard horror stories about what it'd be like.
他听说过关于那会是什么样子的恐怖故事。
And he's an anxious guy to begin with.
他一开始就是一个焦虑的人。
And he lay in bed that night worrying about any possible lies that might accidentally blow it for him, taking the questions apart and putting them back together.
那天晚上，他躺在床上，担心任何可能的谎言可能会意外地毁了他，把问题拆开然后重新组合起来。
And over-thinking everything.
并且凡事想得太多。
For instance--
比如说——
One of the questions that came up while I was talking to a psychiatrist was "Have you ever looked at child pornography?" And right away I said no without even thinking about it because I've never looked at child pornography.
当我与精神科医生交谈时出现的问题之一是“你看过儿童色情制品吗？”我想都没想就立刻拒绝了，因为我从来没有看过儿童色情内容。
And I basically started obsessing about that question, thinking OK, first of all full disclosure.
我基本上开始痴迷于这个问题，想，好吧，首先是全面披露。
I'm gay.
我是同性恋。
I'm a 21, 22 year old guy.
我是一个21、22岁的人。
I have looked at pornography on the internet.
我在互联网上看过色情内容。
Like anyone who's looked at anything on the internet, there is the possibility that I've seen something illegal that I thought was legal.
就像任何在互联网上查看任何内容的人一样，我有可能看到一些我认为合法的非法内容。
But I got nervous because I was thinking, am I now getting myself so stressed out about even the possibility of having accidentally seen child pornography-- someone who was 17 and a half instead of 19-- that I'm now going to fail the test.
但我很紧张，因为我在想，我现在是否因为有可能无意中看到儿童色情内容而感到如此紧张——一个17岁半而不是19岁的人——以至于我现在要通过测试了。
The polygraph, it doesn't just register lies.
测谎仪，它不仅仅记录谎言。
It's a test-- a measurement of your stress level.
这是一项测试——衡量你的压力水平。
He got pretty worked up, and not just about this.
他非常激动，而且不仅仅是因为这个。
But basically here's a conundrum that a person like myself would find themselves going into.
但基本上，这是一个像我这样的人会遇到的难题。
And I'm sure other people would have less of a problem because they're less neurotic than I am.
我相信其他人不会有那么大的问题，因为他们不像我那么神经质。
But you know this test is a measurement of stress.
但你知道这个测试是对压力的测量。
And yet what is it that even a totally innocent, average person would be incredibly stressed out about going into this test?
然而，即使是一个完全无辜的普通人也会因为参加这项测试而感到难以置信的压力呢？
Failing the test.
测试失败。
So yeah, I was nervous.
所以是的，我很紧张。
And to be honest, what I was most worried about going in was the whole drug thing.
说实话，我最担心的是毒品问题。
But their whole thing is if you disclose everything you've done, then you're fine, right?
但他们的全部目的是，如果你披露你所做的一切，那么你就没事了，对吧？
I mean if you say, yeah when I was in high school I smoked a lot of pot.
我的意思是，如果你说，是的，当我在高中时，我抽了很多大麻。
Then that what you're supposed to do.
那么这就是你应该做的事情。
That's one side of it.
这是它的一方面。
I mean I've heard that too, that it's like, well it's not so much what you've done.
我的意思是我也听说过，这就像，好吧，这并不是你所做的事情。
It's whether you've lied or not.
关键在于你有没有说谎。
Because what they're really worried about is blackmail and extortion and other countries turning you by threatening to reveal your secrets.
因为他们真正担心的是勒索和勒索，以及其他国家通过威胁泄露你的秘密来让你转向。
I mean on the other hand, if you have murdered three people but you go ahead and tell them in the pre-polygraph interview, it's not like they're going to be, oh well thanks for the candor.
我的意思是，另一方面，如果你谋杀了三个人，但你在测谎前的采访中告诉他们，他们不会这么做，哦，谢谢你的坦率。
When can you start?
什么时候可以开始？
When Matt showed up at the NSA building in Maryland for his test, he was taken to a tiny room with a table and two chairs.
当马特出现在马里兰州的国家安全局大楼进行测试时，他被带到一个只有一张桌子和两把椅子的小房间。
And he met his interrogator, an African American woman in her 40's.
他遇到了审讯者，一位 40 多岁的非洲裔美国女性。
She was very nice and seemed to be going out of her way to make him feel more comfortable.
她人很好，似乎不遗余力地让他感觉更舒服。
The first part of the session was pretty casual.
会议的第一部分非常随意。
Matt wasn't even hooked up to the machine.
马特甚至没有连接到机器。
The idea was, if he'd ever done anything wrong in his life, this was the time to confess it.
这个想法是，如果他一生中做过任何错事，现在就是承认的时候了。
You know, and this is the part of the test that people have this running joke like, make sure you admit that you in kindergarten smashed little Timmy's bees wax sculpture.
你知道，这是测试的一部分，人们经常开玩笑，确保你承认你在幼儿园砸碎了小蒂米的蜜蜂蜡像。
Basically me having the opportunity to expunge every guilty secret I could possibly have.
基本上我有机会消除我可能拥有的每一个有罪的秘密。
Even at one point, she's like, OK, what crimes have you committed?
即使在某一时刻，她也会问，好吧，你犯了什么罪？
And I was like, well I'm gay.
我当时想，好吧，我是同性恋。
And she's like, uhh.
她就像，呃。
And I was like that's illegal in some states.
我觉得这在某些州是非法的。
So obviously I was going out of my way to tell them everything I could.
显然，我会竭尽全力告诉他们我能告诉他们的一切。
I mean we spent an hour and a half on drugs alone where I was trying to even think of specific dates, which was sort of absurd.
我的意思是我们花了一个半小时单独吸毒，我什至试图想到具体的日期，这有点荒谬。
I mean if you smoked pot three times a day for your entire senior year of high school, what's the point giving dates?
我的意思是，如果你在整个高中四年级每天都吸三次大麻，那么给出日期有什么意义呢？
After a couple hours like this, Matt was finally hooked up to the lie detector.
这样过了几个小时，马特终于连接上了测谎仪。
And that's when things started going downhill.
从那时起事情开始走下坡路。
The questions, mostly about whether he'd been hiding anything from her in the pre-polygraph interview, were straightforward enough.
这些问题很简单，主要是关于他在测谎前的采访中是否对她隐瞒了任何事情。
But Matt could tell from the start that it wasn't going well.
但马特从一开始就看出事情进展不顺利。
There were a lot of problems with how I was I guess sitting in the chair or breathing.
我猜我坐在椅子上或呼吸方面有很多问题。
And she kept stopping the test to give me new instructions that actually made be much more anxious because they seemed to be very contradictory.
她不断停止测试，给我新的指示，这实际上让我更加焦虑，因为它们似乎非常矛盾。
She would tell me that I was breathing too hard or something, right?
她会告诉我我呼吸太急促什么的，对吧？
And then three minutes later, she would stop the test again and say, Matt, stop trying to control your breathing.
三分钟后，她会再次停止测试并说，马特，停止试图控制呼吸。
Were you trying to control your breathing?
你是否试图控制自己的呼吸？
I think I was because I was trying to make sure I wasn't breathing too hard.
我想我是因为我想确保自己没有呼吸太急促。
So that was I guess starting to make me feel like there was a problem.
所以我想这开始让我觉得有问题。
And then finally, she just turned the machine off and said, "You're failing.
最后，她关掉机器并说道：“你失败了。
You are failing this test." And I said, well which question?
这次测试你没通过。”我说，哪个问题？
Immediately thinking the drugs question has totally screwed me over.
一想到毒品问题我就彻底崩溃了。
And she says well "I'm really getting a bad physiological response on every question." And I'm thinking, every question?
她说得好：“我对每个问题的生理反应都非常糟糕。”我在想，每个问题？
And I even said to her, "Does that include the one about me having ever tried to overthrow the US government?" I mean, I'm pretty sure I'd remember.
我还对她说：“这包括我曾经试图推翻美国政府的事吗？”我的意思是，我很确定我会记得。
And she was like, yeah, every question.
她就像，是的，每个问题。
The machine is off at this point.
此时机器已关闭。
And it never got turned back on.
而且它再也没有被打开过。
And I guess the first thing that we started talking about was the drug question because I guess in my mind, I just assumed this must really be the problem.
我想我们开始谈论的第一件事是毒品问题，因为我想在我看来，我只是认为这一定是真正的问题。
And that's when she was portraying herself as wanting to help me give up some sinister secret.
就在那时，她把自己描绘成想要帮助我放弃一些险恶的秘密。
Like this test will all be over once you tell me what it is you're keeping to yourself.
一旦你告诉我你自己保密的是什么，这个测试就会结束。
But at this point, you had nothing to tell her?
但此时，你却没有什么可告诉她的？
I didn't think that I had anything to tell her.
我不认为我有什么要告诉她的。
But again, being told that I'm failing the test and that I have something that I still have to tell her, I'm thinking to myself, my god, I'm so screwed.
但再次，当我被告知我考试不及格，而且我还有一些事情要告诉她时，我心里想，天啊，我真是完蛋了。
It could be anything.
它可以是任何东西。
It could be little Timmy's bees wax sculpture.
这可能是小蒂米的蜜蜂蜡像。
It could be something that I'm not even-- it's not even on my conscious level that I can tell her.
这可能是我无法告诉她的事情——甚至在我的意识层面上我也无法告诉她。
And I'm thinking to myself, as she's going after me more more, OK, obviously she's not going to take no for an answer.
我心里想，随着她越来越追求我，好吧，显然她不会接受拒绝的答案。
I have got to pass this test.
我必须通过这次考验。
I have to get this job.
我必须得到这份工作。
I need to say something to placate her, which I guess was probably the beginning of me really going down that slippery slope of irrationality.
我需要说点什么来安抚她，我想这可能是我真正走下非理性滑坡的开始。
Where I'm doing something that is really, really stupid that I'm somehow starting to convince myself is the strategic thing to do the time.
我正在做一些非常非常愚蠢的事情，我不知何故开始说服自己这是当时要做的战略性事情。
And so, I reached deep inside myself like she wanted me to.
因此，我按照她的要求深入到了自己的内心深处。
And I basically said, oh, you know what it might be?
我基本上说，哦，你知道它可能是什么吗？
Maybe I was still hung up about the whole child porn thing still.
也许我仍然对整个儿童色情事件耿耿于怀。
I don't want to say she had a gotcha look on her face, but she definitely did the whole, leaning forward and, well now I'm very interested in what you have to say.
我不想说她脸上的表情很尴尬，但她确实做到了一切，身体前倾，现在我对你要说的话非常感兴趣。
And then she said, "Well what do you mean by that?" And I'm like, well maybe I'm still worried that I've seen it unknowingly or unwittingly.
然后她说：“那你这是什么意思？”我想，也许我仍然担心我不知不觉地看到了它。
And maybe it really bothers me, the idea that I've seen someone even who was a little but underage like 16 or 17.
也许这真的让我很困扰，因为我见过一个像 16 岁或 17 岁这样的未成年人。
And her mantra for the next hour and a half was, "Look, things are black or white.
在接下来的一个半小时里，她的口头禅是：“看，事情非黑即白。
You either did it or you didn't do it.
你要么做到了，要么没有做到。
Stop telling you don't know."
别再告诉你你不知道了。”
Did she start getting really aggressive with you at that point?
那时她是否开始对你变得非常咄咄逼人？
She was getting so aggressive but-- I mean at one point she slammed one of her fists into her palm and said, "I don't have time for this!
她变得如此咄咄逼人，但是——我的意思是，有一次她用一只拳头猛击手掌，说道：“我没有时间这样做！
We're at war!"
我们正处于战争之中！”
Wait, wait.
等等，等等。
Matt War?
马特·战争？
I mean obviously we have been here for four and a half hours now.
我的意思是显然我们已经在这里呆了四个半小时了。
How can I take what is obviously becoming the worst case scenario for this polygraph and come out on top?
我怎样才能应对这种测谎仪明显成为最坏情况的情况并脱颖而出？
And apparently, my conclusion was to go from saying, "Well I just don't know.
显然，我的结论是：“我只是不知道。
I don't know what I've done." To saying, "OK, I guess I may have looked at some child porn at some point in my life."
我不知道我做了什么。”说：“好吧，我想我可能在生命中的某个时刻看过一些儿童色情片。”
So you gave her an absolute, "Yes, I've looked at child porn."
所以你给了她一个绝对的答案：“是的，我看过儿童色情片。”
Yes, she got me to eventually say that yes, I've looked at child porn.
是的，她让我最终说，是的，我看过儿童色情片。
We really started entering The Twilight Zone in terms of how I was rationalizing what I said to her.
就我如何合理化我对她所说的话而言，我们真正开始进入暮光区。
And it was at this point when I really began entirely making things up.
正是在这个时候，我才真正开始完全编造故事。
So she's like, how many images?
所以她想，有多少张图片？
And I said-- in my mind I'm like, OK, just for my own sense of self-esteem, I'm going to give an answer that makes some sort of sense.
我说——在我心里，我想，好吧，只是为了我自己的自尊感，我会给出一个有意义的答案。
So I'm going to say some number that I think maybe represents the highest possible percentage of images that I've seen on the internet that could have possibly been someone who was under 18.
所以我要说一些数字，我认为这个数字可能代表了我在互联网上看到的可能是 18 岁以下人士的图片的最高比例。
And so I say 10.
所以我说 10。
And she immediately responds with, "Now listen to me.
她立即回应道：“现在听我说。
If it's just one more than 10.
如果只是比 10 多 1 的话。
If it's 11, then that means you're still lying to me.
如果是11，那就说明你还在骗我。
So you better come up with a number that absolutely includes the maximum number of images that you've seen." And I'm thinking to myself, well what should I say?
所以你最好想出一个绝对包含你所见过的最大图像数量的数字。”我在想，我应该说什么？
2,000?
2,000？
12?
12？
What do I say?
我说什么？
So I think I came up with 50.
所以我想我想出了50个。
So you said to this woman, "I have looked at exactly 50 images of child pornography in my lifetime."
所以你对这个女人说：“我一生中已经看过 50 张儿童色情图片了。”
I think I said I've looked at no more than 50.
我想我说过我看过不超过50个。
You know the funny thing about this whole thing is growing up, I had looked at almost no pornography in my entire life.
你知道这整件事的有趣之处在于成长，我一生中几乎没有看过色情作品。
I had straight friends.
我有异性恋的朋友。
I mean most of friends were straight guys.
我的意思是大多数朋友都是直男。
You live with them in the dorm.
你和他们住在宿舍里。
They all were downloading porn off the internet all the time.
他们一直都在从互联网上下载色情内容。
And I was feigning interest.
我假装感兴趣。
And once I came out of the closet, I immediately ended up in a monogamous relationship with someone who I'm still dating today.
当我出柜后，我立即与一个至今仍在约会的人建立了一夫一妻制的关系。
And I've actually, more so than almost anyone else I know my age, I mean friends of mine, I'm not interested in porn, adult or otherwise.
事实上，我比任何我认识的同龄人，我的意思是我的朋友，都对色情、成人或其他方面不感兴趣。
So for the record, I'm an aficionado nor connoisseur of kiddie porn.
因此，郑重声明，我既不是儿童色情片的爱好者，也不是鉴赏家。
So it was totally arbitrary, totally random.
所以这完全是任意的、完全随机的。
And we're joking about it now.
我们现在正在开玩笑。
But at the time, I'm shaking like a leaf.
但当时我浑身颤抖得像一片树叶。
I feel like I might have a nervous breakdown.
我感觉我可能神经衰弱了。
It's like blubbering in my seat.
就像在我的座位上哭泣一样。
And I was like, oh you know could maybe just jot it down that I'd like to have a second test?
我当时想，哦，你知道也许可以记下来我想进行第二次测试吗？
And she's un-hooking me.
她正在解除对我的迷惑。
And she's like, "Yeah sure, whatever.
她就像，“是的，当然，无论如何。
I'll talk to them."
我会和他们谈谈。”
It'll come as no surprise that Matt didn't get the job.
马特没有得到这份工作也就不足为奇了。
Instead, he got a letter from the NSA saying that his application had been discontinued on the basis of his quote "involvement with child pornography." Getting a rejection letter is one thing, but getting a rejection letter from the United States government saying they know you're into kiddie porn is quite another.
相反，他收到了美国国家安全局的一封信，称他的申请已因他引用的“涉及儿童色情制品”而被终止。收到拒绝信是一回事，但收到美国政府的拒绝信，说他们知道您喜欢儿童色情内容，则是另一回事。
Child pornography is a felony.
儿童色情制品是重罪。
Matt was scared.
马特很害怕。
He hired a lawyer, who told him he wasn't alone, that other people taking polygraphs have admitted to all sorts of things they'd never done.
他聘请了一位律师，律师告诉他，他并不孤单，其他接受测谎的人也承认了他们从未做过的各种事情。
The lawyer arranged for Matt to take new polygraph test.
律师安排马特接受新的测谎仪测试。
And he passed with flying colors.
他出色地通过了考试。
But the NSA wouldn't change its decision or clear his name.
但美国国家安全局不会改变其决定，也不会为他洗清罪名。
And Matt was haunted by the fact that he'd falsely confessed to an act that repulsed him.
马特因为错误地承认了自己厌恶的行为而感到困扰。
It's a pretty awful thing to know that people out there think that you've done this kind of thing.
知道外面的人认为你做了这种事，这是一件非常可怕的事情。
And maybe this sounds weird, but for several months afterwards, whenever I was standing on a subway platform or something, and there was somebody there with their little kids, I felt kind of dirty.
也许这听起来很奇怪，但几个月后，每当我站在地铁站台或其他什么地方，有人带着他们的小孩在那里时，我都会感到有点肮脏。
I felt like, you know what, there's someone out there who thinks that I want to see pictures of these kids naked.
我感觉，你知道吗，有人认为我想看这些孩子的裸体照片。
Matt was still in grad school when all this happened.
当这一切发生时，马特还在读研究生。
And it was hard to drag himself to class every day knowing he was preparing himself for jobs he probably could never have.
每天都很难拖着自己去上课，因为他知道自己正在为自己可能永远无法得到的工作做准备。
He gave an intelligence career one last shot and applied for a job at the CIA.
他给了情报生涯最后一搏，并申请了中央情报局的一份工作。
But not long after he told them about his NSA interview, they dropped his from the process.
但在他告诉他们他接受国家安全局采访后不久，他们就放弃了他的采访。
I mean in my mind, without sounding too dramatic, it was basically the end of me working in the career that I wanted to work in.
我的意思是，在我看来，这听起来不太戏剧化，这基本上是我在我想要从事的职业生涯中的终结。
Of course there's a reason for that.
当然这是有原因的。
Matt cracked.
马特裂开了。
They asked him some questions, and he implicated himself in a crime he never committed.
他们问了他一些问题，他将自己卷入了一件他从未犯过的罪行中。
And maybe that's not the sort of person who should be given our nation's security secrets.
也许这样的人不应该被告知我们国家的安全机密。
Do you think that your performance in the interrogation speaks to how well you would have done your job?
您认为您在审讯中的表现是否表明您的工作做得有多好？
No. Well I mean, if you want me to be totally honest, if I was going to say-- and this could be true-- if my performance in the interview said anything negative about my ability to do the job, maybe it said I was too immature.
不。我的意思是，如果你想让我完全诚实，如果我要说——这可能是真的——如果我在面试中的表现对我的工作能力产生了负面影响，也许这表明我太不成熟了。
In the sense that I was the neurotic, overly introspective kid who gave up all this information in the first place when I didn't need to.
从某种意义上说，我是一个神经质、过度内省的孩子，在不需要的时候，我首先放弃了所有这些信息。
But I also think there's something wrong with a system that decides that I committed a felony that I didn't commit and keeps me from ever being able to do the job, but it allows in Aldrich Ames, who once they found out that he was a Soviet spy, they got a warrant for his house and they found a statue of Lenin in his back yard.
但我也认为这个系统有问题，它决定我犯了我没有犯的重罪，使我永远无法完成这项工作，但它允许奥尔德里奇·艾姆斯，一旦他们发现他是苏联间谍，他们就获得了对他房子的搜查令，并在他的后院发现了列宁的雕像。
I mean how come they missed that when they got me?
我的意思是，当他们抓到我时，他们怎么会错过这一点呢？
He's given up intelligence work for now and moved across the country to begin a new career.
他暂时放弃了情报工作，搬到全国各地开始新的职业生涯。
I'd tell you where he went and what he's doing, but he doesn't want me to.
我本想告诉你他去了哪里以及他在做什么，但他不希望我这么做。
These days, Matt would rather say too little than too much.
如今，马特宁愿说得太少，也不愿说太多。
And keep some things to himself.
并把一些事情留给自己。
Brian Montopolis.
布莱恩·蒙托波利斯。
Well our program is produced today by Sarah Koenig and myself with Alex Blumberg, Diane Cook, Wendy Dorr, Jane Feltes and Lisa Pollak.
今天我们的节目由 Sarah Koenig 和我本人以及 Alex Blumberg、Diane Cook、Wendy Dorr、Jane Feltes 和 Lisa Pollak 制作。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Elizabeth Meister runs our website.
伊丽莎白·梅斯特 (Elizabeth Meister) 负责运营我们的网站。
Production help from Todd Bachmann and Kevin Clark.
托德·巴赫曼 (Todd Bachmann) 和凯文·克拉克 (Kevin Clark) 为制作提供帮助。
Our website, www.thisamericanlife.org, where you can listen to our shows for absolutely free.
我们的网站 www.thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中完全免费收听我们的节目。
Or buy CDs of them.
或者购买它们的 CD。
And you know you can download today's program and our archives at audible.com/thisamericanlife.
您知道，您可以在 audible.com/thisamericanlife 下载今天的节目和我们的档案。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight for our program by Mr. Torey Malatia, who sat me down at the mixing console in our radio studio years ago and explained to me how he runs the controls.
[资金来源] WBEZ 管理部门由 Torey Malatia 先生负责监督我们的项目，他几年前让我坐在我们广播工作室的混音台前，并向我解释了他如何运行控制装置。
The gauges or whatever they're saying.
仪表或者他们所说的任何东西。
You really, really didn't pay that much attention.
你真的真的没有那么关注。
They were just there.
他们就在那里。
You just knew that you had to work to make a living.
你只知道你必须工作才能谋生。
You know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life .
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
You aren't going to let any gauges stop $400 or $500 coming in your home for a week.
您不会让任何仪表在一周内阻止您家中的 400 美元或 500 美元流入。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。