285: Know Your Enemy - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #285 | March 25, 2005 285: Know Your Enemy Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 285 集 | 2005 年 3 月 25 日 285：了解你的敌人 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass Sometimes the plan works out exactly like you wanted.
序言 艾拉·格拉斯 有时计划的结果完全如你所愿。
Stetson Kennedy grew up in the South, always hated the Klan, back at a time when the Ku Klux Klan was still feared.
斯泰森·肯尼迪在南方长大，一直憎恨三K党，当时三K党仍然令人畏惧。
And after the end of World War II, he decided to do something about it.
第二次世界大战结束后，他决定为此做点什么。
And so his great idea was to go undercover in the Ku Klux Klan.
所以他的好主意就是在三K党中卧底。
And so he moved to Atlanta, which was the headquarters of the Klan.
于是他搬到了亚特兰大，那里是三K党的总部。
This is Stephen Dubner, co-author of a new book that, among other things, tells the story of Stetson Kennedy.
我是史蒂芬·杜布纳 (Stephen Dubner)，他是一本新书的合著者，该书讲述了斯泰森·肯尼迪 (Stetson Kennedy) 的故事。
Kennedy made up a fake name, started hanging around in bars filled with guys who had, Kennedy wrote, the frustrated cruel look of the Klan to them.
肯尼迪编了个假名字，开始在酒吧里闲逛，酒吧里挤满了肯尼迪写道的人，他们对他们有着三K党沮丧的残酷表情。
He played a lot of pool, drank a lot of beers, until finally one afternoon he heard what he was waiting for from a guy he calls Slim, a cab driver.
他打了很多台球，喝了很多啤酒，直到有一天下午，他终于从一个他叫斯利姆的出租车司机那里听到了他在等待的消息。
And Slim quickly revealed himself as a bigot, saying, what this country needs is a good Klux-ing.
斯利姆很快就暴露出自己是个偏执狂，他说，这个国家需要的是一个好的三党。
You've got too many of these Catholics, and Jews, et cetera, et cetera.
天主教徒、犹太人等等太多了。
And Stetson Kennedy said something to the effect of, yeah, but you know-- he said, my uncle Brady, he used to be a Klansman, which was true.
斯泰森·肯尼迪说了一些话，大意是，是的，但你知道——他说，我叔叔布雷迪，他曾经是一名三K党成员，这是事实。
But I hear the Klan is long gone, aren't they?
但我听说三K党早就不复存在了，不是吗？
And then this guy Slim whips out his Klan recruitment card and starts to put the hard sell on Stetson Kennedy.
然后这个家伙斯利姆拿出他的三K党招募卡，开始强行推销斯泰森·肯尼迪。
Stetson actually plays hard-to-get for a little while, and then he joins up.
斯泰森实际上玩了一会儿难缠的游戏，然后他就加入了。
He gets a robe and a hood, starts going to weekly meetings, learns the secret passwords and the secret names that the Klan has for things, which turn out to follow an amazingly simple pattern.
他穿上长袍和兜帽，开始参加每周一次的会议，学习三K党对事物的秘密密码和秘密名称，结果发现它们遵循一个令人惊讶的简单模式。
They would just add the letters K-L to the front of a lot of things.
他们只是将字母 K-L 添加到很多东西的前面。
So, the Klan's meeting place was called the klavern-- like a cavern, but a klavern.
因此，三K党的聚会场所被称为“klavern”——就像一个洞穴，但却是一个“klavern”。
And two Klansmen would hold a klonversation.
两个三K党成员会举行一次三K党谈话。
And then the officers were known as the Klaliff, and the Klokard, and the Kludd, and the Kligrapp, and the Klabee, and the Kladd, and the Klarogo, and the Klexter, and all these ridiculous things.
然后这些军官被称为“Klaliff”、“Klokard”、“Kludd”、“Kligrapp”、“Klabee”、“Kladd”、“Klarogo”、“Klexter”，以及所有这些可笑的东西。
Did they have a Klandshake?
他们有 Klandshake 吗？
Stephen Dubner They had a Klan handshake, which you would grip left hands in this limp-wristed way and wiggle like a fish a few times.
史蒂芬·杜布纳（Stephen Dubner） 他们有一个三K党的握手方式，你会以这种软弱的手腕方式握住左手，然后像鱼一样摆动几次。
And that was the Klan handshake.
这就是三K党的握手。
The other thing about the Klan that Stetson Kennedy found out was that they were a pretty smooth moneymaking operation.
斯泰森·肯尼迪发现的关于三K党的另一件事是，他们的赚钱运作相当顺利。
And so there were all kinds of dues.
所以就有了各种各样的会费。
And you had to buy your robe from a certain place.
而且你必须从某个地方购买你的长袍。
And the robes were very expensive.
而且长袍非常昂贵。
And you could only have your robe cleaned at a certain place, because they didn't want everybody to find out about it.
而且你只能在某个地方清洗你的长袍，因为他们不想让每个人都知道这件事。
So it was this big racket.
所以这就是一场大闹剧。
There were all kinds of rackets.
有各种各样的球拍。
I never thought to think that, actually, you had to buy your robe from them.
我从来没想过，实际上，你必须从他们那里买你的长袍。
I just somehow thought that they all made their own robes.
我只是不知何故认为他们都是自己做的长袍。
Not only did you have to buy your robe, but they charged $15 for a robe, which at the time was a lot of money.
不仅要自己买长袍，而且一件长袍的售价是 15 美元，这在当时来说是一笔很大的钱。
And they really were just sheets with hoods.
它们实际上只是带兜帽的床单。
So Kennedy tried to use the information that he was discovering inside the Klan against the Klan.
因此，肯尼迪试图利用他在三K党内部发现的信息来对抗三K党。
When his chapter was hired by local businesses to break up a union meeting or threaten organizers, he'd warn the union guys in advance.
当当地企业雇用他的分会来破坏工会会议或威胁组织者时，他会提前警告工会人员。
He passed along other information to an assistant attorney general in Georgia.
他将其他信息传递给佐治亚州的助理总检察长。
He wrote editorials.
他写社论。
He made speeches.
他发表讲话。
At one point, he actually wanted to start a competing group that he also wanted to call the Ku Klux Klan, which in theory would have let him get injunctions against any real Klan group, on the grounds that they were violating the laws and charter of his Ku Klux Klan.
有一次，他实际上想成立一个竞争团体，他也想将其称为“三K党”，理论上，这可以让他获得针对任何真正的三K党团体的禁令，理由是他们违反了他的三K党的法律和章程。
He was having some successes, but it was kind of slow going.
他取得了一些成功，但进展缓慢。
And then he harnessed the most powerful force known to man.
然后他利用了人类已知的最强大的力量。
I'm talking, of course, about radio.
当然，我说的是广播。
And that's when he came up with this unbelievable idea.
就在那时，他想到了这个令人难以置信的想法。
He was one day walking down the street.
有一天，他走在街上。
And he saw some kids playing this game of cops and robbers, essentially.
他看到一些孩子基本上在玩这种警察和强盗的游戏。
And they were exchanging secret passwords.
他们正在交换秘密密码。
And it reminded him of the Klan, because the Klan meetings that he went to-- they would change the password every day, they had this secret handshake.
这让他想起了三K党，因为他参加的三K党会议——他们每天都会改变密码，他们有这种秘密的握手。
It was all this childlike stuff.
这一切都是孩子气的事情。
And this was right as World War II was over.
这正是二战结束时的情况。
And one of the biggest figures in all the media and in all the public imagination at that point was Superman in the comic books.
当时所有媒体和所有公众想象中最伟大的人物之一就是漫画书中的超人。
But also the Superman radio show was hugely, hugely, hugely popular.
而且超人广播节目也非常非常受欢迎。
It was on every night.
每晚都在播放。
And he thought, huh, I wonder if I could somehow get the Superman radio show to do a show about the Ku Klux Klan, using this real information about the Ku Klux Klan that I have.
他想，嗯，我想知道我是否可以利用我掌握的关于三K党的真实信息，让超人广播节目制作一个关于三K党的节目。
And it could be like Superman takes on the Ku Klux Klan.
这可能就像超人对抗三K党一样。
Wouldn't that be cool?
那不是很酷吗？
When Jimmy Olsen, as manager of the Unity House baseball team, selected a Chinese boy named Tommy Lee for his number one pitcher, he incurred the wrath of a band of intolerant bigots calling themselves The Clan of the Fiery Cross.
当团结之家棒球队的经理吉米·奥尔森选择一个名叫汤米·李的中国男孩作为他的第一投手时，他引起了一群自称“永暑十字氏族”的不宽容的偏执狂的愤怒。
So Stetson Kennedy started feeding them information.
于是斯泰森·肯尼迪开始向他们提供信息。
And they would end up doing four week's worth of nightly radio shows.
他们最终会做为期四个星期的夜间广播节目。
In a glade-- casting weird shadows over the nearby hills and lighting the sky above-- burns a huge wooden cross.
在一片林间空地上，燃烧着一个巨大的木制十字架，在附近的山上投射出奇怪的阴影，照亮了上方的天空。
Before it kneel half a hundred men clothed in long robes.
其前跪着半百身着长袍的男子。
In this scene, a white school kid is brought to a Clan rally by his uncle.
在这个场景中，一名白人学生被他的叔叔带到了一个部落集会。
Gosh, who are all these guys, Uncle Matt?
天哪，这些人是谁，马特叔叔？
And why are you wearing the sheets and hoods?
你为什么穿着床单和头巾？
We're the Clan of the Fiery Cross, Chuck.
我们是火十字氏族，查克。
We're a great secret society pledged to purify America.
我们是一个伟大的秘密社团，承诺净化美国。
America for 100% Americans only-- one race, one religion, one color.
美国只属于 100% 美国人——一种种族、一种宗教、一种肤色。
I don't get it.
我不明白。
America's got all kinds of religions and colors.
美国有各种各样的宗教和肤色。
When we get through, there will only be one.
当我们通过时，就只有一个了。
Only one?
只有一个？
But the Constitution says all Americans have the same rights and privileges.
但宪法规定所有美国人都享有相同的权利和特权。
The Constitution.
宪法。
Ha.
哈。
We'll change that.
我们会改变这一点。
Now be quiet.
现在安静点。
And Kennedy wrote about this in his own writing, correct?
肯尼迪在自己的著作中写到了这一点，对吗？
Yeah.
是的。
At the first Klan meeting he went to after the show hit the air, the Grand Dragon, who was the leader of the local group-- he's trying to run the meeting.
节目播出后，他参加了第一次三K党会议，当地团体的领袖“巨龙”正在努力主持这次会议。
And then one regular rank-and-file Klansman gets up and starts shouting.
然后，一名普通的三K党成员站起来并开始大喊大叫。
He said, I came home from work the other night, and my kid and all these other kids had these towels tied around their necks like capes.
他说，那天晚上我下班回家，我的孩子和所有其他孩子都把这些毛巾像斗篷一样绑在脖子上。
And some of them had pillow cases over their heads.
其中一些人头上还套着枕套。
And the ones with the capes were chasing the ones with pillow cases.
那些带着斗篷的人正在追赶那些带着枕套的人。
And when I asked them what they were doing, they said they were playing this new game of cops and robbers called Superman against the Clan.
当我问他们在做什么时，他们说他们正在玩这款新的警察和强盗游戏，名为“超人”，对抗族群。
I never felt so ridiculous in all my life.
我一生中从未感到如此可笑。
Suppose my own kid finds my Klan robe someday?
假设有一天我自己的孩子发现了我的三K党长袍怎么办？
Stetson Kennedy was also feeding his information to big-time journalists and radio commentators-- like Walter Winchell and Drew Pearson-- who would quote things that had happened at that week's Klan meetings.
斯泰森·肯尼迪还向知名记者和广播评论员（例如沃尔特·温切尔和德鲁·皮尔森）提供他的信息，他们会引用那周三K党会议上发生的事情。
And I don't want to exaggerate the effect of all this.
我不想夸大这一切的影响。
From a Klan perspective, it wasn't klataclysmic.
从三K党的角度来看，这并不是破坏性的。
But it was pretty klupsetting.
但这是相当令人沮丧的。
They didn't like being made fun of.
他们不喜欢被人取笑。
The climax of the four weeks of Superman broadcasts comes in this scene that is pure poetic license on the part of the Superman writers.
超人广播四个星期的高潮出现在这个场景中，这是超人作家纯粹的诗意许可。
Basically, the racist uncle in the story evades capture by Superman and seeks refuge with the imperial head of the clan, who-- in this radio world Ku Klux Klan-- sees the Clan only as a money-making scheme, nothing more-- just a way to get suckers to pay dues and buy robes.
基本上，故事中的种族主义叔叔躲避了超人的抓捕，并向部落的帝国首领寻求庇护，而在这个广播世界的三K党中，部落的帝国首领只将部落视为一个赚钱的计划，仅此而已，只是让傻瓜们缴纳会费和购买长袍的一种方式。
Come now, Riggs.
来吧，里格斯。
Is it possible that you really believe all that stuff about getting rid of the foreigners?
难道你真的相信那些关于赶走外国人的事情吗？
That "one race, one religion, one color" hokum?
那种“一种种族、一种宗教、一种肤色”的胡言乱语？
Hokum?
胡言乱语？
Why, it's the absolute truth.
为什么，这是绝对的事实。
We've got to save America from foreign elements.
我们必须将美国从外国势力中拯救出来。
Well, I'll be-- I thought you had brains, Riggs.
好吧，我会——我以为你有头脑，里格斯。
But you've become drunk on the slop we put up for the suckers.
但你却在我们为傻瓜准备的斜坡上喝醉了。
Our members, Riggs.
我们的成员，里格斯。
The poor fish who want to hate and blame somebody else for their failures in life.
可怜的鱼想要憎恨并责怪别人，因为他们在生活中的失败。
The saps who believe drivel such as, a man is a dangerous enemy because he goes to a different church.
那些相信胡言乱语的傻瓜，比如，一个人是一个危险的敌人，因为他去了不同的教堂。
The little nobodies who want to believe some other race is inferior so they can feel superior.
这些小人物想要相信其他种族是劣等的，这样他们就可以感到优越。
The jerks who go for that "100% American" rot.
那些追求“100%美国”的混蛋已经腐烂了。
Of course not.
当然不是。
You must know there is no such thing as what we call 100% American.
你必须知道，不存在我们所说的100%美国人。
Everyone here except the Indians is descended from foreigners.
除了印第安人之外，这里的每个人都是外国人的后裔。
Why, blast you, Wilson.
哎呀，该死的，威尔逊。
You sound like a dirty foreigner yourself.
你自己听起来就像一个肮脏的外国人。
I'm running a business, Riggs.
我正在经营一家企业，里格斯。
And so are you.
你也是。
We deal in one of the oldest and most profitable commodities on Earth.
我们经营地球上最古老、最赚钱的商品之一。
Hate.
恨。
See, that's how you do it, right there.
看，你就是这样做的，就在那里。
You get to know your enemy, and then you put it on the radio as forcefully as you can.
你开始了解你的敌人，然后你尽可能有力地把它放在收音机里。
We have three stories today on our radio show that do just that, with one big difference from Stetson Kennedy's story.
今天我们的广播节目中有三个故事就是这样做的，其中一个与斯泰森·肯尼迪的故事有很大不同。
In none of our other stories today do things work out so victoriously.
在我们今天的其他故事中，没有一个事情能取得如此胜利的结果。
In fact, in the other three stories in today's show, when people get to know their enemies, it just makes things way more complicated, and more confusing.
事实上，在今天节目的其他三个故事中，当人们了解他们的敌人时，这只会使事情变得更加复杂和令人困惑。
From WBEZ Chicago and Public Radio International, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 和国际公共广播电台的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's show, Know Your Enemy.
今天的节目是《认识你的敌人》。
Act One, The Minister Meets the Martyr.
第一幕，部长会见烈士。
We have the remarkable true story of a suicide bomber and her conversation with the head of the defense forces from the other side.
我们有一个关于一名自杀式炸弹袭击者的非凡真实故事，以及她与另一方国防军负责人的对话。
Act Two, I Am Curious, Jello, in which two former adversaries-- punk star Jello Biafra and the government prosecutor who went after him-- sit down after two decades to talk.
第二幕《我很好奇，杰洛》中，两位前对手——朋克明星杰洛·比亚夫拉和追捕他的政府检察官——在二十年后坐下来交谈。
Act Three, Eight Percent of Nothing.
第三幕，百分之八的虚无。
How could we do an hour on knowing your enemy without at least one story about knowing the enemy who is your spouse, sometimes anyway.
如果没有至少一个关于了解你的敌人（有时无论如何）的故事，我们怎么能花一个小时来了解你的敌人呢？
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, The Minister Meets the Martyr.
第一幕，部长会见烈士。
I first heard about this first story a few years ago.
我几年前第一次听说第一个故事。
And I was kind of stunned that it had happened at all.
我对这件事的发生感到有点震惊。
It's the kind of thing that you see in movies, but it's really hard to believe that it could happen in real life.
这是你在电影中看到的那种事情，但很难相信它会在现实生活中发生。
Basically, the story is this.
故事基本上是这样的。
There's a country at war.
有一个国家正处于战争状态。
And the head of its defense establishment decides that he wants to meet with foot soldiers from the other side-- the people at the very bottom of the military-- to understand better what's motivating them.
其国防机构负责人决定与对方的步兵（军队最底层的人）会面，以更好地了解他们的动机。
Even more incredible than the fact that these meetings happened is the fact that a reporter is there to record exactly what they say to each other at one of these meetings.
比这些会议发生这一事实更令人难以置信的是，一名记者在那里准确记录了他们在其中一次会议上彼此所说的话。
This happened back in 2002.
这件事发生在2002年。
Israel's defense minister-- their Donald Rumsfeld-- decided that he wanted to meet face-to-face with suicide bombers who, for one reason or another, had failed to carry out their plans.
以色列国防部长——他们的唐纳德·拉姆斯菲尔德——决定与自杀式炸弹袭击者面对面会面，这些袭击者由于某种原因未能执行他们的计划。
Israel's intelligence agency, the Shin-Bet, arranged for a meeting with two Palestinians who had set out to blow themselves up but didn't.
以色列情报机构辛贝特安排了与两名原本打算自杀但最终没有实施的巴勒斯坦人会面。
The first at this meeting was a teenager named Rasan Stiti, who didn't seem remorseful, and who told the minister that he had wanted to die a martyr's death to help his people, to get rewards in Paradise.
第一个参加这次会议的是一个名叫拉桑·斯蒂蒂（Rasan Stiti）的少年，他似乎并没有悔恨之情，他告诉部长，他想殉道以帮助他的人民，以便在天堂获得奖励。
With the second bomber, it was much more complicated.
对于第二架轰炸机，情况要复杂得多。
What you're going to hear now is an excerpt from Vered Levy-Barzilai's story in the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz from June 21, 2002, just a week after the meeting.
您现在将听到的是 Vered Levy-Barzilai 在 2002 年 6 月 21 日以色列报纸 Ha'aretz 上发表的故事的摘录，即会议结束一周后。
Remember, she's writing for an Israeli audience about all this.
请记住，她正在为以色列读者撰写有关这一切的文章。
The article was read for us by Enid Graham.
这篇文章是由伊妮德·格雷厄姆（Enid Graham）为我们朗读的。
The meeting took place last week on Sunday at 2:00 PM in the detention room in the Russian compound in Jerusalem.
这次会议于上周周日下午 2:00 在耶路撒冷俄罗斯大院的拘留室举行。
Defense Minister Ben-Eliezer was accompanied by his military secretary, Brigadier General Mike Herzog.
国防部长本-埃利泽由他的军事秘书迈克·赫尔佐格准将陪同。
He came straight from a cabinet meeting, dressed in a dark suit, light shirt, and tie.
他刚从内阁会议回来，穿着深色西装、浅色衬衫和领带。
The two men entered the room where the Shin-Bet personnel were waiting.
两人走进辛贝工作人员等候的房间。
The little room was too narrow to comfortably accommodate all those present.
这个小房间太窄了，无法舒适地容纳在场的所有人。
They met Rasan Stiti, and then Arin Ahmed was brought in.
他们遇到了拉桑·斯蒂蒂（Rasan Stiti），然后阿林·艾哈迈德（Arin Ahmed）被带进来。
She was very different from Stiti.
她与斯蒂蒂非常不同。
He sat slouched in his seat and averted his gaze for most of the session, not daring to look Ben-Eliezer in the eye.
他无精打采地坐在座位上，在会议的大部分时间里都移开视线，不敢直视本-埃利以泽的眼睛。
Ahmed, in contrast, sat upright and looked straight ahead.
相比之下，艾哈迈德则坐直，目视前方。
Stiti was stiff.
斯蒂蒂表情僵硬。
She was very expressive.
她非常善于表达。
He spoke only Arabic.
他只会说阿拉伯语。
She sometimes switched to fluent English, and occasionally used a few words of Hebrew.
她有时会改用流利的英语，偶尔也会使用一些希伯来语。
He spoke in a cold, monotonous tone as if he were reciting slogans.
他说话的语气冰冷单调，就像在背口号一样。
Ahmed, on the other hand, seemed much more sincere, and they tended to believe her.
另一方面，艾哈迈德似乎更真诚，他们倾向于相信她。
Ahmed impressed them as a young woman with a charismatic personality.
艾哈迈德给他们留下的印象是一位富有魅力的年轻女性。
Before she arrived here, Arin Ahmed was studying communications and computer programming at Bethlehem University.
在来到这里之前，阿林·艾哈迈德正在伯利恒大学学习通信和计算机编程。
She's 20, born in Bait Zahur, outside of Bethlehem.
她今年 20 岁，出生于伯利恒郊外的拜特扎胡尔 (Bait Zahur)。
Her father died when she was still a baby.
她的父亲在她还是个婴儿的时候就去世了。
For reasons that are not totally clear, her mother abandoned her and moved to Amman, Jordan, where she still is.
由于不完全清楚的原因，她的母亲抛弃了她，搬到了约旦的安曼，她现在仍然在那里。
Arin's aunts and uncles raised her and saw to her education.
阿林的叔叔阿姨抚养她长大，并照顾她的教育。
On March 8 of this year, she experienced another loss.
今年3月8日，她又经历了一次失落。
Tanzim militant Jad Salem, her boyfriend of a year and a half, was killed.
坦齐姆武装分子贾德·塞勒姆（Jad Salem）是她交往一年半的男友，被杀。
According to the Palestinians, he was killed by Israeli Defense Forces gunfire.
据巴勒斯坦人称，他是被以色列国防军开枪打死的。
Israeli Intelligence says, quote, he was apparently killed while attempting to prepare a car bomb.
以色列情报部门称，他显然是在试图准备汽车炸弹时被杀的。
Arin decided to avenge the death of her beloved by carrying out a suicide bombing.
阿琳决定通过自杀式爆炸来为她所爱的人报仇。
She conveyed a message to this effect to a senior Tanzim militant.
她向一名坦齐姆高级武装分子传达了这样的信息。
On May 22, Tanzim activists Ali Yusef Mughrabi and Mahmoud Salem picked her up and took her to prepare for a suicide bombing in Rishon Letzion.
5 月 22 日，坦齐姆活动人士阿里·尤瑟夫·穆格拉比 (Ali Yusef Mughrabi) 和马哈茂德·萨勒姆 (Mahmoud Salem) 接了她，并带她去里雄莱锡安准备自杀式爆炸袭击。
They introduced her to a 16-year-old boy, Issam Badir from Beit Jala.
他们向她介绍了一位来自拜特贾拉的 16 岁男孩伊萨姆·巴迪尔 (Issam Badir)。
They were supposed to carry out the attack together.
他们本来应该一起进行攻击。
Mahmoud Salem instructed Badir to blow himself up amid the backgammon tables on the open plaza.
马哈茂德·塞勒姆指示巴迪尔在露天广场的西洋双陆棋桌上引爆身上的炸弹。
Arin was supposed to wait on the other side of the street for the people who weren't killed or injured in the first explosion to run in a panic towards where she was standing.
阿琳原本应该在街道的另一边等待那些在第一次爆炸中没有死伤的人惊慌地跑向她所站的地方。
The expectation was that she would soon be surrounded by a large crowd.
预计她很快就会被一大群人包围。
Then she was to choose the right moment and blow herself up.
然后她就要选择合适的时机，引爆自己。
The explosives were packed into black knapsacks.
炸药装在黑色背包里。
Arin said that she had already written a farewell letter to her family.
阿琳说，她已经给家人写了一封告别信。
She purified herself and prayed.
她净化自己并祈祷。
The men explained to her that she had to pass for a young Israeli woman.
男人们向她解释说，她必须冒充一位年轻的以色列妇女。
So she was asked to wear Western-style dress-- tight pants and a midriff top.
所以她被要求穿西式服装——紧身裤和露脐上衣。
She did as she was told.
她按照吩咐做了。
Then they met with Ibrahim Sarahne, Mahmoud's cousin, who explained how to get to the site chosen for the attack, and described the place for them in great detail.
然后他们会见了马哈茂德的表弟易卜拉欣·萨拉尼 (Ibrahim Sarahne)，他向他们解释了如何到达选定的袭击地点，并向他们详细描述了这个地点。
Sarahne transported them nearby.
莎拉妮将它们运送到附近。
When they arrived, Sarahne gave Arin and Issam precise instructions, via cell phone, where exactly to stand so as to have the most lethal effect.
当他们到达时，莎拉妮通过手机向阿林和伊萨姆发出了精确的指示，告诉他们具体应该站在哪里，以便产生最致命的效果。
They got out of the car with their knapsacks, and headed for opposite sides of the street as instructed.
两人背着背包下车，按照指示向街道两侧走去。
Arin stood in her position for about 10 minutes.
阿琳在原来的位置上站了大约10分钟。
Then she suddenly left the spot, returned to the parked car, and told Sarahne that she had changed her mind and didn't want to go through with the bombing.
然后她突然离开现场，回到停着的车里，告诉莎拉妮她改变了主意，不想经历爆炸。
The Tanzim men were enraged that she had backed out.
坦齐姆的男人们对她的退出感到愤怒。
They reminded her of the lofty status she would achieve and the great honor awaiting her in Paradise.
它们提醒她，她将获得崇高的地位，以及天堂里等待着她的巨大荣誉。
Arin watched as the teenager ran and blew himself up right before her eyes.
阿琳看着这个少年逃跑并在她眼前引爆了自己。
She again told her handlers that she wouldn't go through with it.
她再次告诉她的管理者她不会这样做。
And they brought her back to Bethlehem.
他们把她带回伯利恒。
Arin Ahmed is not handcuffed when she is led in to meet the defense minister.
阿林·艾哈迈德被带去见国防部长时没有戴上手铐。
She sits at the table dressed in long pants and a gray sweater, a tall, full-figured young woman with long black hair and dark eyes.
她坐在桌边，穿着长裤和灰色毛衣，身材高挑，身材丰满，长着黑长发和黑眼睛。
Ben-Eliezer, "Explain to me why you wanted to commit a suicide bombing in Israel.
本-埃利以泽，“向我解释一下为什么你想在以色列实施自杀式爆炸。
Was it for religious reasons?"
是出于宗教原因吗？”
Ahmed, "No, it was something personal.
艾哈迈德：“不，这是个人的事情。
I was in distress.
我很苦恼。
I was depressed."
我很沮丧。”
Ben-Eliezer, "Why did you want to commit suicide?"
本-埃利以泽，“你为什么想自杀？”
Ahmed, "You killed my friend."
艾哈迈德：“你杀了我的朋友。”
Ben-Eliezer, "Was he a close friend of yours?"
Ben-Eliezer：“他是你的密友吗？”
Ahmed, "Yes.
艾哈迈德：“是的。
We were friends for a year and a half."
我们做了一年半的朋友。”
Ben-Eliezer, "Did you live together?"
Ben-Eliezer，“你们住在一起吗？”
Ahmed, "No, of course not.
艾哈迈德：“不，当然不。
There's no such thing in our society.
我们的社会里没有这样的事情。
But we were friends.
但我们是朋友。
And he was killed."
然后他就被杀了。”
Ben-Eliezer, "So what did you want to happen?
本-埃利以泽，“那么你想要发生什么？
Did you want to kill innocent Jews in order to avenge his death?"
你想杀害无辜的犹太人来为他报仇吗？”
Ahmed, "I don't know what I wanted.
艾哈迈德：“我不知道自己想要什么。
I was very hurt and angry.
我很受伤也很生气。
I have friends from the university who are active in the Tanzim.
我有大学里的朋友，他们活跃在 Tanzim 中。
We get together a lot and go out together.
我们经常聚在一起，一起出去。
We were sitting together one evening.
一天晚上我们坐在一起。
And they were talking about how they wanted to organize a reprisal action against all the military actions and everything that Israel had done to them in the last months.
他们正在谈论如何组织对所有军事行动以及以色列在过去几个月对他们所做的一切的报复行动。
I sat and listened.
我坐下来听。
I thought about Jad.
我想到了贾德。
And all of a sudden, I said to them, you know what?
突然间，我对他们说，你知道吗？
I'm going to do a suicide bombing.
我要进行自杀式爆炸。
And that was it.
就是这样。
A moment earlier, I hadn't thought of anything like that.
刚才我还没有想到这样的事情。
This was on a Friday.
这是在星期五。
Afterward, I went home.
之后，我就回家了。
I spoke with someone in the Tanzim, and told them that I wanted to do it."
我和坦齐姆的一个人谈过，并告诉他们我想这么做。”
Ben-Eliezer, "And what happened then?"
本-埃利以泽：“然后发生了什么？”
Ahmed, "I thought they would take me to start preparing for it, that they would train me and teach me about weapons, something like that.
艾哈迈德：“我以为他们会带我开始准备，他们会训练我并教我武器之类的东西。
I was sure it was a process that took several months.
我确信这个过程需要几个月的时间。
And then, suddenly, four days later, some Tanzim militants came and told me, we've chosen you.
然后，突然间，四天后，一些坦齐姆武装分子来告诉我，我们选择了你。
Congratulations.
恭喜。
You're going to do a suicide bombing.
你要进行自杀式爆炸。
And then some more senior people came.
然后一些更高级的人也来了。
I was in shock.
我很震惊。
I never imagined it could happen so fast.
我从没想过事情会发生得这么快。
"But they didn't let me think about it too much.
“但他们没有让我考虑太多。
They told me, you'll gain a very special status among the women suicide bombers.
他们告诉我，你将在女性自杀式炸弹袭击者中获得非常特殊的地位。
You'll be a real heroine.
你将成为真正的女英雄。
It's for Jad's memory.
这是为了贾德的记忆。
You'll be reunited with him in heaven.
你会在天堂与他重逢的。
You'll be with him in Paradise.
你会和他一起在天堂。
And I did whatever they told me.
我按照他们告诉我的去做。
They explained everything to Issam and me.
他们向伊萨姆和我解释了一切。
This all happened very fast and then we set out."
这一切发生得很快，然后我们就出发了。”
Ben-Eliezer, "Did your family know?"
本-埃利泽：“你的家人知道吗？”
Ahmed, "No. I left on the day I wrote my farewell letter."
艾哈迈德：“不。我在写告别信的那天就离开了。”
Ben-Eliezer, "And you didn't feel bad about what it would do to them?"
Ben-Eliezer：“你对这会对他们造成的影响并不感到难过吗？”
Ahmed, "I was only thinking about my boyfriend."
艾哈迈德：“我只想着我的男朋友。”
Ben-Eliezer, "And what happened then?
本-埃利以泽，“然后发生了什么？
Why did you change your mind?"
你为什么改变主意？”
Ahmed, "I got out of the car.
艾哈迈德：“我下了车。
The place wasn't exactly like I'd seen on the map.
这个地方和我在地图上看到的不太一样。
I saw a lot of people, mothers with children, teenage boys and girls.
我看到了很多人，有带着孩子的母亲、十几岁的男孩和女孩。
I remembered an Israeli girl my age whom I used to be in touch with.
我记得曾经和我有过联系的一个与我同龄的以色列女孩。
I suddenly understood what I was about to do.
我突然明白我要做什么了。
And I said to myself, how can I do such a thing?
我对自己说，我怎么能做这样的事呢？
I changed my mind.
我改变了主意。
Issam also had second thoughts, but they managed to convince him to go ahead.
伊萨姆也犹豫了，但他们设法说服他继续前进。
I saw him go and blow himself up.
我看到他走开并引爆了自己。
I decided that I wasn't going to do it.
我决定不这样做。
They were very angry at me.
他们对我非常生气。
They yelled at me the whole way back.
回来的路上他们一直对我大喊大叫。
And they also tried to send me to carry out another attack in Jerusalem.
他们还试图派我去耶路撒冷发动另一次袭击。
But I had already changed my mind and given up the whole idea.
但我已经改变了主意并放弃了整个想法。
I stayed at home, until your forces came and arrested me."
我一直待在家里，直到你们的部队来逮捕我。”
Ahmed, "And now I'm here.
艾哈迈德：“现在我在这里。
It was a mistake.
这是一个错误。
It's wrong to kill people and children.
杀害人和儿童是错误的。
Doing something like that is forbidden.
这样做是被禁止的。
There's no way I would do it.
我根本不可能这么做。
And the fact is, I didn't do it."
而事实是，我没有这么做。”
Ben-Eliezer, "If you're released, what will you do?"
Ben-Eliezer，“如果你被释放了，你会做什么？”
Ahmed, "I'd leave this place immediately.
艾哈迈德：“我会立即离开这个地方。
I'd go live in Jordan with my mother.
我会和妈妈一起去约旦生活。
I would draw a line across the past and never come back here.
我会与过去划清界线，再也不会回到这里。
Yes, I faltered.
是的，我动摇了。
But it was a momentary stumble.
但这只是一时的绊脚石。
That's not me.
那不是我。
I was swept up into this thing, but I came to my senses.
我被卷入了这件事，但我醒悟了。
In Jordan, with my mother and sisters, I would continue studying.
在约旦，我和母亲和姐妹一起继续学习。
I'd get a degree at the university.
我会在大学获得学位。
I'd never go near anything like this again."
我再也不会靠近这样的东西了。”
At this point, Ben-Eliezer says goodbye and signals that the conversation has ended.
此时，本-埃利以泽道了再见，并表示谈话已经结束。
Ahmed bursts out crying.
艾哈迈德放声大哭。
"Please, Mr. Minister, wait a minute.
“请部长先生稍等一下。
There's something else I want to tell you." Ben-Eliezer turns around to listen.
我还有件事想告诉你。”本-埃利以泽转过身去听。
Ahmed, "I'm finished with this.
艾哈迈德：“我已经结束了。
I swear it.
我发誓。
Please let me out of here.
请让我离开这里。
I want to ask you to transfer me to my family in Jordan."
我想请求你将我转移到我在约旦的家人那里。”
He listens but doesn't say anything.
他听着，但什么也没说。
She sighs.
她叹了口气。
"What will become of me?
“我会变成什么样子？
I have no future.
我没有未来。
I don't want my whole life to be ruined because of this.
我不想我的一生就这样毁了。
I didn't do anything.
我什么也没做。
Don't forget that.
别忘了这一点。
I didn't do it.
我没有做。
I changed my mind.
我改变了主意。
Please let me out."
请让我出去。”
"To each his fate," Ben-Eliezer said.
“各有各的命运，”本-埃利以泽说道。
And then he left the room.
然后他离开了房间。
Last Thursday afternoon, in his office at the defense ministry, Ben-Eliezer said that from now on he intends to keep interviewing other potential suicide bombers, because they're the main problem that the defense establishment has to contend with.
上周四下午，本·埃利泽在国防部办公室表示，从现在开始，他打算继续采访其他潜在的自杀式炸弹袭击者，因为他们是国防部门必须应对的主要问题。
"This is an efficient, quick, cheap, and highly lethal kind of weapon that is very hard to overcome," the defense minister said.
国防部长说：“这是一种高效、快速、廉价且杀伤力极强的武器，很难攻克。”
"That's why I want to meet them face-to-face."
“这就是为什么我想面对面地见到他们。”
There are professionals in the Shin-Bet whose job it is to do this.
Shin-Bet 中有专业人士的工作就是做这件事。
Why was it important for you to meet them yourself?
为什么亲自见到他们对您来说很重要？
"If I'm fighting against something, I need to get to know it personally.
“如果我要对抗某件事，我需要亲自去了解它。
I know tanks and airplanes and artillery.
我知道坦克、飞机和大炮。
But I don't know the person who turns himself into a bomb."
但我不认识把自己变成炸弹的人。”
Do you think you'll learn something that you didn't know before?
你认为你会学到一些你以前不知道的东西吗？
"First of all, I wanted to have the contact.
“首先，我想留个联系方式。
To look them in the eye.
看着他们的眼睛。
To see if they look me in the eye.
看看他们是否看着我的眼睛。
To see how I would feel, to try to understand directly what causes a young man or woman in their teens to throw everything away, to go out and murder innocent people, to commit suicide.
看看我会有什么感受，尝试直接理解是什么导致一个十几岁的年轻男女扔掉一切，出去谋杀无辜的人，甚至自杀。
I had to sit down across from this thing."
我不得不坐在这东西对面。”
And what did you learn?
你学到了什么？
"I felt different things in the meeting with him and the meeting with her.
“在与他的会面和与她的会面中，我感受到了不同的东西。
And I learned different things from both cases.
我从这两个案例中学到了不同的东西。
The young man said he wouldn't do it again, but I didn't believe him.
年轻人说他不会再这样做了，但我不相信他。
He recited the brainwashing they did to him, nothing more.
他只讲述了他们对他进行的洗脑，仅此而已。
It sounded more like someone with a weak character whom the surrounding system had homed in on, caught and trained for the assignment.
听起来更像是一个性格软弱的人，被周围的系统盯上，抓住并训练以执行任务。
He seemed like a spineless young man, nothing special."
他看起来就像一个没有骨气的年轻人，没什么特别的。”
"It wasn't easy.
“这并不容易。
She showed emotion.
她表现出了情感。
She spoke, she was quiet, she smiled, she cried.
她说话，她安静，她微笑，她哭泣。
She's an intelligent young woman and took part in a flowing conversation."
她是一位聪明的年轻女性，谈话很流畅。”
How did you feel when you were sitting there facing her?
当你坐在她对面时，你感觉如何？
"To be honest, I felt sorry for her.
“说实话，我为她感到难过。
I admit it.
我承认。
I thought she was pitiable.
我觉得她很可怜。
I found it hard to fathom how a girl like her, an educated young woman with her whole future ahead of her, could have ended up in such a situation, ready to commit such an inhuman act.
我很难理解，像她这样一个受过教育、前途光明的女孩，怎么会落得如此下场，做出如此不人道的行为。
On the other hand, the fact that she did not go through with it and the way she expressed remorse touched me.
另一方面，她没有经历这件事以及她表达悔恨的方式让我感动。
I admit that I felt compassion for her."
我承认我对她感到同情。”
What do you think ought to be done with her?
你认为应该对她做什么？
"I don't know.
“我不知道。
And I'm not the one who has to decide.
我不是那个必须做出决定的人。
I tend to believe that if she's released she will get as far away from here as possible and try to start a new life."
我倾向于相信，如果她被释放，她会尽可能远离这里，并尝试开始新的生活。”
Isn't there something unseemly about a defense minister choosing to sit down with someone who almost killed innocent civilians and giving her a platform, and then even feeling such empathy towards her?
一个国防部长选择和一个差点杀害无辜平民的人坐在一起，给她一个平台，然后还对她产生如此的同情心，这难道不是很不体面的事吗？
"Listen well.
“好好听着。
This meeting was held in the context of know thine enemy.
这次会议是在知己知彼的背景下召开的。
None of the rest interests me.
其余的都不让我感兴趣。
To me, this is an important meeting that is supplying valuable information."
对我来说，这是一次重要的会议，提供了有价值的信息。”
She was just a hairbreadth away from blowing herself up and killing innocent Israeli civilians.
她距离引爆炸弹并杀害无辜的以色列平民仅一步之遥。
"True, and you don't have to remind me of that.
“确实如此，你不必提醒我这一点。
I haven't forgotten that for a moment.
我一刻也没有忘记这一点。
But then she tells you her life story, and smiles and cries, and you remember that this is a 20-year-old girl.
但当她向你讲述她的人生故事时，又笑又哭，你就会记得这是一个20岁的女孩。
And you also feel sorry for her.
而且你也为她感到难过。
My gut feeling was that she was telling the truth.
我的直觉是她说的是实话。
She almost did a monstrous thing, but in the end she didn't.
她差点就做出了一件荒唐的事，但最终她没有这么做。
Of course, I haven't changed my opinion about the severity of the phenomenon or the severity of the fact that she was a willing participant in it until the very last moment.
当然，直到最后一刻，我对这一现象的严重性以及她自愿参与这一事实的严重性的看法都没有改变。
And she also didn't prevent the terror attack.
而她也没有阻止恐怖袭击。
But she did manage to move me."
但她确实感动了我。”
What new and relevant information did this meeting provide?
这次会议提供了哪些新的相关信息？
"There is an entire system that operates to produce human bombs.
“有一个完整的系统可以用来生产人体炸弹。
Here you can see how this machine works.
在这里您可以看到这台机器是如何工作的。
As soon as she said she wanted to commit suicide, the whole thing took on a tremendous momentum and went totally out of her control.
她一说要自杀，整个事情就来势汹汹，完全脱离了她的控制。
Here you have a girl who suddenly blurted something out.
有个女孩突然脱口而出一些话。
I'm almost certain that she, herself, didn't really mean it.
我几乎可以肯定，她本人并不是真心这么想。
But as soon as the words were said, they pounced on her.
但话音刚落，他们就扑向了她。
They came at her from every direction."
他们从各个方向向她袭来。”
And how does all this insight and analysis help us?
所有这些洞察和分析对我们有何帮助？
The terror attacks are continuing all the time.
恐怖袭击一直在持续。
"86% of terror attacks are foiled and prevented.
“86% 的恐怖袭击都被挫败和预防。
Understanding the enemy is always helpful, knowing the behind-the-scenes mechanisms.
了解敌人、了解幕后机制总是有帮助的。
We are interested in the moment that comes before.
我们对即将到来的时刻感兴趣。
I have a lot of information on the table.
我有很多信息摆在桌面上。
My objective is to prevent suicide bombings.
我的目标是防止自杀性爆炸。
That's what Operation Defensive Shield was for.
这就是防御盾行动的目的。
That's what all the other operations are for.
这就是所有其他操作的目的。
But unfortunately, while the Israeli Defense Forces are carrying out these necessary actions, the operations themselves become a hothouse that produces more and more new suicide bombers.
但不幸的是，虽然以色列国防军正在采取这些必要的行动，但这些行动本身却成为产生越来越多新型自杀式炸弹袭击者的温室。
The military actions kindle the frustration, hatred, and despair, and are the incubator for the terror to come.
军事行动点燃了挫败感、仇恨和绝望，是未来恐怖的温床。
The religious and political environment immediately exploits this effect and dispatches the new suicide bombers.
宗教和政治环境立即利用这种效应并派遣了新的自杀式炸弹袭击者。
And the pattern is repeated."
并且这种模式不断重复。”
You are the defense minister of the state of Israel, and you're basically saying that we're trapped in an endless, vicious circle, that there's no solution, that we have no horizon to look toward and no hope that this terrible situation will end.
你是以色列国的国防部长，你基本上是说我们陷入了一个无休止的恶性循环，没有解决方案，我们没有前途，也不希望这种可怕的局势能够结束。
"It is a terribly vicious and evil circle, but I do see hope.
“这是一个非常恶性和邪恶的循环，但我确实看到了希望。
With Yasser Arafat, it won't happen.
对于亚西尔·阿拉法特来说，这不会发生。
It will happen with someone else.
这会发生在别人身上。
As soon as the Palestinians have a new dream of a truly better life, of a normal life, the whole bit about the virgins in Paradise and all the other nonsense they've sold them will lose its magic.
一旦巴勒斯坦人有了真正更好的生活、正常生活的新梦想，关于天堂里的处女的全部内容以及他们向她们出售的所有其他废话都将失去其魔力。
I believe that then, young people like Arin Ahmed and even Rasan Stiti will say no to anyone who tries to convince them to choose death over life."
我相信，到那时，像阿林·艾哈迈德甚至拉桑·斯蒂蒂这样的年轻人都会对任何试图说服他们选择死亡而非生的人说不。”
Actress Enid Graham, reading a story from the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz from June 2002.
女演员伊妮德·格雷厄姆正在阅读以色列报纸《国土报》2002 年 6 月的报道。
If you like this kind of coverage of the Mideast conflict, Ha'aretz's English-language website is haaretzdaily.com.
如果您喜欢此类有关中东冲突的报道，《国土报》的英文网站是 haaretzdaily.com。
In all, about a dozen suicide bombers met with the defense minister, according to the ministry.
据国防部称，总共约有十几名自杀式炸弹袭击者会见了国防部长。
Coming up, Jello and a marshmallow sit down together and talk.
上来后，果冻和棉花糖坐在一起聊天。
That's going to make a lot more sense in about five minutes, OK?
大约五分钟后你就会明白很多，好吗？
From Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续进行时，来自芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台。
It's This American Life .
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week, of course, on our program we choose a theme and bring you a variety of different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，每周我们的节目都会选择一个主题，并为您带来有关该主题的各种不同类型的故事。
Today's program, Know Your Enemy, the stories of people getting to know the people that they are fighting and how complicated that can be.
今天的节目《了解你的敌人》讲述了人们逐渐了解他们正在战斗的人的故事以及这有多么复杂。
We have arrived at Act Two of our program, another act in which two adversaries have a rare face-to-face meeting.
我们已经进入了计划的第二幕，在这一幕中，两个对手进行了一次罕见的面对面会面。
Act Two, I Am Curious, Jello.
第二幕，我很好奇，果冻。
This is the story of a guy who gets to understand his enemy, but way too late to do him any good at all.
这是一个关于一个人了解他的敌人的故事，但为时已晚，对他没有任何好处。
It starts in 1986, when Michael Guarino is the latest hire at something called the Special Operations Division of the LA District Attorney's office.
故事始于 1986 年，当时迈克尔·瓜里诺 (Michael Guarino) 是洛杉矶地方检察官办公室特别行动部门的最新雇员。
It's a prestigious job, a chance to try high-profile cases about a fairly juicy subject, obscenity.
这是一份享有盛誉的工作，有机会审理有关相当有趣的话题——淫秽——的备受瞩目的案件。
Guarino is just 38-- young compared to the rest of his colleagues-- and he is about to file charges that are going to make headlines around the world.
瓜里诺只有 38 岁——与其他同事相比很年轻——他即将提出的指控将成为世界各地的头条新闻。
David Segal tells what happened.
大卫·西格尔讲述了发生的事情。
There's an old joke that sums up this whole story in a punch line.
有一个老笑话用妙语总结了整个故事。
Be warned, it's a little off-color.
请注意，它有点色差。
It's about a guy complaining in a bar about how he is remembered.
这是关于一个人在酒吧里抱怨人们如何记住他的故事。
"I served in the House of Representatives for 10 years," he says, "but does anyone call me Mr. Congressman?
“我在众议院工作了 10 年，”他说，“但是有人称我为国会议员先生吗？
No, sir.
不，先生。
I ran a corner store for a decade, but does anyone call me Mr. Grocer?
我经营街角商店十年了，但有人叫我杂货店先生吗？
No, they don't.
不，他们没有。
I owned a farm for a long, long time, and harvested wheat, raised cattle.
我拥有一个农场很久很久了，收割小麦，养牛。
Does anyone call me Mr. Farmer?
有人叫我农夫先生吗？
Nope.
不。
You [BEEP] one sheep."
你[嘟嘟]是一只羊。”
Thank you.
谢谢。
Enjoy your salads.
享受你的沙拉吧。
I'll be here all week.
我整个星期都会在这里。
OK, it's a little crude.
好吧，有点粗糙。
But it gets us to this question you probably never thought you'd hear.
但这让我们想到了这个你可能从未想过会听到的问题。
How do you un-[BEEP] a sheep?
你如何取消[BEEP]一只羊？
What do you do if you're remembered for one of the worst moments in your life for years, even if that person is no longer really you?
如果你一生中最糟糕的时刻之一被人们铭记多年，即使那个人不再是真正的你，你会怎么做？
Michael Guarino has confronted this very matter-- minus the sheep, of course-- for a while.
迈克尔·瓜里诺（Michael Guarino）已经面对这个问题（当然不包括羊）有一段时间了。
We start at the height of the Reagan era culture wars.
我们从里根时代文化战争的高峰开始。
Tipper Gore is pushing warning labels on albums by bands like Judas Priest and Twisted Sister.
蒂珀·戈尔（Tipper Gore）正在为犹大牧师（Judas Priest）和扭曲姐妹（Twisted Sister）等乐队的专辑贴上警告标签。
The punk rock band called Dead Kennedys has released an album called Frankenchrist.
朋克摇滚乐队“Dead Kennedys”发行了一张名为“Frankenchrist”的专辑。
And included in every copy is a poster by a Swiss artist named H.
每份副本中都包含一张瑞士艺术家 H. 的海报。
R.
R。
Giger.
吉格尔.
You know Giger's work even if you don't recognize his name, because he designed the look of the great sci-fi monster movie, Alien , which earned him an Academy Award.
即使您不认识吉格尔的名字，您也知道他的作品，因为他设计了伟大的科幻怪物电影《异形》的外观，并为他赢得了奥斯卡奖。
But the Giger poster in this album would never earn a PG rating.
但这张专辑中的吉格海报永远不会获得PG评级。
I'd love to describe it, but current broadcasting standards make that risky.
我很想描述它，但当前的广播标准使得这样做存在风险。
The title of the painting says everything you need to know-- Penis Landscape.
这幅画的标题说明了你需要知道的一切——阴茎景观。
Let's just move on.
让我们继续吧。
Guarino gets a copy of Penis Landscape , and he thinks he has the grounds for an obscenity charge.
瓜里诺得到了一本《阴茎风景》，他认为自己有理由受到淫秽指控。
I remember looking at the piece of art and thinking, just on the basis of the insert, that we had a great case.
我记得看着这件艺术品，并根据插图思考，我们有一个很棒的案例。
It seemed to me that that is the kind of material that most adults wouldn't want to see distributed to kids.
在我看来，大多数成年人都不希望看到这种材料分发给孩子们。
Dead Kennedys, for those who don't know, were a big deal in the world of punk rock, one of the most popular American acts the genre ever produced.
对于那些不知道的人来说，死去的肯尼迪在朋克摇滚世界中是一件大事，朋克摇滚是该流派有史以来最受欢迎的美国表演之一。
The band's music ran, for the most part, at the speed of a blender on puree.
乐队的音乐大部分都以搅拌机搅拌果泥的速度运行。
And the lyrics-- written by singer and songwriter Jello Biafra-- were strongly anti-government, to the point of paranoia.
由歌手兼作曲家杰洛·比夫拉 (Jello Biafra) 创作的歌词强烈反政府，甚至达到了偏执的地步。
They had a song called "Government Flu" about an imagined attempt by the US to poison its own citizens.
他们有一首名为“政府流感”的歌曲，讲述了美国试图毒害本国公民的想象。
Another tune called "California Uber Alles" compared former governor Jerry Brown to Hitler.
另一首名为“加州优步”的曲子将前州长杰里·布朗与希特勒进行了比较。
[MUSIC -- "CALIFORNIA UBER ALLES" BY THE DEAD KENNEDYS]
[音乐——已故肯尼迪家族的《加州优步》]
Guarino ordered up an investigation, and soon after, nine cops were busting into the apartment of Jello Biafra.
瓜里诺下令进行调查，不久之后，九名警察闯入杰洛·比夫拉的公寓。
This was the sort of case that could make a young prosecutor's name, and Guarino made the most of it.
这是一种能让年轻检察官扬名立万的案件，瓜里诺充分利用了这一点。
During the year and a half it took to get this matter into court, he was quoted in places like the New York Times , and he was soon famous enough to be denounced by Frank Zappa.
在将此事提交法庭的一年半时间里，《纽约时报》等媒体引用了他的言论，他很快就出名到受到弗兰克·扎帕的谴责。
He wanted to set a precedent.
他想开创一个先例。
And he was on a winning streak-- 30 victories in a row-- which made him a little cocky.
而且他正处于连胜之中——30连胜——这让他有点自大。
He never bothered to research the Dead Kennedys.
他从来没有费心去研究死去的肯尼迪家族。
And when a colleague suggested he might want to listen to the Frankenchrist album, he ignored her.
当一位同事建议他可能想听听《弗兰肯基督》专辑时，他没有理睬她。
He believed in what he was doing.
他相信自己正在做的事情。
The law seemed utterly clear to him.
法律对他来说似乎非常清楚。
And he was in love with the righteousness of his cause.
他热爱他事业的正义。
At one point, he actually compared Jello Biafra to a serial murderer named Richard Ramirez, who was convicted of killing 13 people.
有一次，他实际上将 Jello Biafra 与一位名叫理查德·拉米雷斯 (Richard Ramirez) 的连环杀人犯进行了比较，后者因杀害 13 人而被定罪。
But as soon as the trial began, Guarino realized that he would have to fight for the moral high ground.
但审判一开始，瓜里诺就意识到他必须争夺道德制高点。
He was up against Phil Schnayerson, a very expensive and widely-admired defense lawyer who decided to take Jello's case for free.
他的对手是菲尔·施奈森（Phil Schnayerson），一位费用昂贵且广受尊敬的辩护律师，他决定免费接手杰洛的案件。
Schnayerson had a mastery of the arguments and a sense of humor.
施奈森精通论证并富有幽默感。
Even when Phil was interviewing prospective jurors, it seemed to Guarino he was charming the room.
即使当菲尔在采访未来的陪审员时，在瓜里诺看来，他也让整个房间充满魅力。
He seemed to be having a whole lot of fun with the trial, way more fun than I was having with it.
他似乎对这次审判很感兴趣，比我玩的有趣得多。
And he seemed to feel like he was on the right side.
他似乎觉得自己站在正确的一边。
And that's not usual, for a prosecutor to be involved in a case in which the defense attorney has this feeling of righteousness.
对于检察官来说，辩护律师有这种正义感的案件，这并不常见。
That's supposed to be mine.
那应该是我的。
That's supposed to be my territory.
那应该是我的领地。
And so it was upsetting to see him so sure of himself, and so sure of the merits of his case.
因此，看到他对自己如此自信，对自己的案子是非曲直如此自信，我感到很不安。
And I could start reading the jurors.
我可以开始阅读陪审员的意见。
I pride myself on being able to see what's on the jurors' minds, really almost within 10 seconds of their starting to answer questions.
我很自豪能够在陪审员开始回答问题后的 10 秒内了解他们的想法。
And I didn't like what I was seeing.
我不喜欢我所看到的。
I was seeing a lot of various degrees of hatred for me registering on faces.
我在脸上看到了很多不同程度的对我的仇恨。
So I started getting the feeling that this was not a great case very early on in the trial.
所以我在审判之初就开始感觉到这不是一个很好的案例。
But Guarino had a Perry Mason moment in mind that he thought was a killer.
但瓜里诺脑海中浮现出佩里·梅森的时刻，他认为那是一个杀手。
You know, every prosecutor wants to present the critical evidence in a dramatic way.
要知道，每个检察官都希望以戏剧性的方式呈现关键证据。
And I wanted the poster introduced by the mother of the child who had purchased the album.
我想要购买专辑的孩子的母亲介绍的海报。
"Let's get Mary Sierra to the stand." And then she would lay the foundation for this poster.
“让我们把玛丽塞拉带到证人席上。”然后她将为这张海报奠定基础。
I'd ask her if this is similar to the poster that she saw in the album that her son had purchased.
我会问她这是否与她在儿子购买的专辑中看到的海报相似。
She would say, yes.
她会说，是的。
And then at that point, I would have it marked as an exhibit, and I-- not Phil, but I-- would then show it to the jury.
然后我会把它标记为展品，然后我——不是菲尔，而是我——会把它展示给陪审团。
And it would be the moment that I chose, rather than the moment that Phil chose.
这将是我选择的时刻，而不是菲尔选择的时刻。
And instead of that happening, Phil, on his first question-- I mean it was like his first question out of the box.
菲尔，关于他的第一个问题，我的意思是，这就像他开箱即用的第一个问题。
All of a sudden, Phil is passing this poster out to the jurors.
突然，菲尔将这张海报递给陪审员。
And they're looking at it.
他们正在关注它。
And they are getting used to it.
他们正在习惯它。
And he said, this is a poster that's ugly and it's offensive.
他说，这是一张丑陋且令人反感的海报。
But you're going to have to decide whether or not it's obscene.
但你必须决定它是否淫秽。
The jury survived their peek at Penis Landscape , and then Schnayerson played them some Dead Kennedys songs.
陪审团在观看《阴茎景观》后幸存下来，然后施奈森为他们播放了一些《死去的肯尼迪》的歌曲。
The band's lyrics, it was soon obvious, were blunt but surprisingly sophisticated.
很快我们就发现，乐队的歌词虽然直白，但却出人意料地复杂。
To the jury, and to Guarino-- who of course had never heard the band until he got to court-- the Giger poster now had some context to put it in a very different light.
对于陪审团和瓜里诺来说——当然，瓜里诺在上法庭之前从未听过乐队的演奏——吉格尔的海报现在有了一些背景，可以从一个非常不同的角度来看待它。
The defense called professors and music critics to the stand, and the trial became an art and history lesson instead of a discourse about protecting the children.
辩方传唤教授和音乐评论家出庭作证，审判变成了一堂艺术和历史课，而不是关于保护儿童的讨论。
[MUSIC -- "GOVERNMENT FLU" BY THE DEAD KENNEDYS]
[音乐——已故肯尼迪家族的“政府流感”]
There's the way you tell the story of your life, and if you're lucky, your version is the best known.
这就是你讲述自己生活故事的方式，如果你幸运的话，你的版本是最著名的。
If you're not so lucky, some opponent defines your legacy for you.
如果你没那么幸运，某些对手会为你定义你的遗产。
And if you're really unlucky, that opponent is Jello Biafra.
如果你真的运气不好的话，那个对手就是杰洛·比亚夫拉（Jello Biafra）。
All right.
好的。
Isn't this painting sick?
这画是不是有病？
Isn't this painting obscene?
这幅画是不是很猥琐啊？
Isn't this painting sick?
这画是不是有病？
Don't you think Giger is obsessed with sex with the dead?
你不觉得吉格沉迷于与死者发生性关系吗？
Isn't this painting sexually explicit?
这幅画不是色情的吗？
Isn't this sick?
这不是有病吗？
Isn't this sick?
这不是有病吗？
This is Jello, from a spoken-word account of the trial on an album called The High Priest of Harmful Matter.
这是杰洛，来自一张名为《有害物质的大祭司》的专辑中对审判的口头描述。
He toured with this material, and got a lot of attention and press for it.
他带着这些材料巡回演出，并受到了很多关注和压力。
If Guarino's mistake was that he didn't really know and understand his enemy, he was up against a foe who is an amazingly close observer of people.
如果瓜里诺的错误在于他没有真正了解和理解他的敌人，那么他面对的是一个对人有着惊人的密切观察力的敌人。
And throughout the 44-minute monologue, Jello does a withering impersonation of Guarino, who comes across in great detail as a moralizing bozo.
在长达 44 分钟的独白中，杰洛对瓜里诺进行了令人沮丧的模仿，瓜里诺在细节上给人的印象是一个说教的笨蛋。
I can't imitate Michael Guarino properly without a pen open and cocked between the index and middle finger, always kind of poking at you right at eye level when he talks to you, kind of like a little claw or something.
如果没有张开笔并在食指和中指之间翘起，我就无法正确模仿迈克尔·瓜里诺，当他与你说话时，总是在视线高度上戳你，有点像小爪子之类的。
Poking at you with his pen.
用他的笔戳你。
And here's Jello doing Guarino talking to the jury.
这是杰洛在扮演瓜里诺对陪审团的讲话。
"Don't be fooled by the fact that Mr. Jello Biafra appears to be nicely dressed or smiling [?
“不要被杰洛·比亚夫拉先生看起来衣着考究或面带微笑的事实所迷惑[？
benignly ?] over here.
善意地？]在这里。
And don't be fooled by the fact that their lawyers appear to be friendlier than I am."
不要被他们的律师看起来比我更友好的事实所迷惑。”
Finally, he couldn't restrain himself.
终于，他无法克制自己了。
He had to do it anyway.
无论如何他都必须这么做。
He whips out the Giger poster and flails it around the courtroom for all to see, thus exposing its contents to at least 15 minors in the courtroom gallery.
他迅速拿出吉格尔海报，在法庭周围挥舞，让所有人都能看到，从而将其内容暴露给法庭画廊中的至少 15 名未成年人。
By the time Guarino is waving that poster around, just about everything that could go wrong for him had gone wrong, so wrong that even he didn't believe his arguments anymore.
当瓜里诺挥舞着那张海报时，几乎所有对他来说可能出问题的事情都出问题了，错得连他自己都不再相信自己的论点了。
Just as bad, the guy who was supposed to be cast as the villain, Jello, was coming across like the reasonable one.
同样糟糕的是，原本应该扮演反派的杰洛，却给人一种理性的感觉。
Remember, this was big news, the test case in the '80s culture wars.
请记住，这是一个大新闻，是 80 年代文化战争的测试案例。
In the international coverage of the trial, and in reports in newspapers and on television, it was clear that Biafra wasn't the only one who found the whole thing a little ridiculous.
在国际上对该审判的报道以及报纸和电视的报道中，很明显，比夫拉并不是唯一一个认为整件事有点荒谬的人。
Well, all throughout the trial we were seeing various anchors kind of smirking at the fact that we were doing this.
好吧，在整个审判过程中，我们看到各种主播对我们这样做的事实感到有点傻笑。
That was unusual.
这很不寻常。
That was different.
那是不同的。
I hadn't experienced that yet.
我还没有经历过。
But that was-- I did start to think that I was on, not the wrong side of the case so much, but more generally the wrong side of history.
但那是——我确实开始认为我站在了这个案子的错误一边，但更普遍的是历史的错误一边。
I just felt I was on the wrong side of history.
我只是觉得我站在了历史的错误一边。
He was right.
他是对的。
In the end, the jury deadlocked, with the majority for acquittal.
最终，陪审团陷入僵局，多数人支持无罪释放。
Guarino requested a retrial, but the judge would have none of it.
瓜里诺请求重审，但法官拒绝了。
Case dismissed.
案件被驳回。
This trial was the start of a pretty radical transformation for Michael Guarino.
这次审判是迈克尔·瓜里诺彻底转变的开始。
After that case, and a few more like it, the priorities of the DA's office started to bug him.
在那起案件以及其他一些类似案件之后，地方检察官办公室的优先事项开始困扰着他。
There were all these show trials that added up to nothing, and all sorts of crimes-- corporate crimes, political conflicts of interest-- that were just ignored.
所有这些表演性的审判毫无意义，各种犯罪——公司犯罪、政治利益冲突——都被忽视了。
He feuded with his boss, James Hahn, then became so exasperated that he tried to throw the guy out of office by running against him for the district attorney's job.
他与他的老板詹姆斯·哈恩（James Hahn）不和，然后变得非常愤怒，以至于他试图通过竞选地区检察官的职位来将他赶下台。
He lost that election.
他输掉了那次选举。
Hahn is now the mayor of Los Angeles by the way.
顺便说一句，哈恩现在是洛杉矶市长。
Guarino left the city, and wound up as the dean of a small law school in northern California.
瓜里诺离开了这座城市，最终担任北加州一所小型法学院的院长。
The whole idea of being a prosecutor and doing anything to take an opponent down didn't appeal to him anymore.
作为一名检察官并尽一切努力打倒对手的整个想法不再对他有吸引力。
He was more interested in cases coming out fairly.
他对案件的公平审判更感兴趣。
And once a prosecutor is more interested in fairness than in winning, he's pretty much not doing his job.
一旦检察官对公平比对胜利更感兴趣，他就几乎没有做好自己的工作。
So in a sense, this trial kind of snapped you out of it, the substance of it began to matter more.
所以从某种意义上说，这种考验让你摆脱了困境，它的实质内容开始变得更加重要。
Yeah, I hate to say yes to that, but that's actually a pretty accurate assessment.
是的，我不想对此说“是”，但这实际上是一个非常准确的评估。
If I look back, I would say that that was a turning point for me.
如果我回顾过去，我会说那对我来说是一个转折点。
He was a different guy, but nobody knew it.
他是一个不同的人，但没有人知道。
He couldn't escape his most famous case.
他无法逃脱他最著名的案件。
For one thing, his students remembered.
一方面，他的学生记得。
From time to time, someone would come up to me and say, are you the Mike Guarino that prosecuted Jello Biafra?
有时，有人会走过来对我说，你是起诉杰洛·比夫拉的迈克·瓜里诺吗？
What were you thinking?
你在想什么？
And students were amazed that this person that they thought they knew had been involved in this thing.
学生们都很惊讶，这个他们自以为认识的人居然参与了这件事。
I think they were kind of hoping I'd say that was a different Michael Guarino.
我想他们有点希望我会说那是一个不同的迈克尔·瓜里诺。
And if that wasn't bad enough, his son, for reasons we can only guess at, turned into a huge fan of Jello Biafra, and at home, he was forced to listen to Dead Kennedys music for years.
如果这还不够糟糕的话，他的儿子，出于我们只能猜测的原因，变成了 Jello Biafra 的超级粉丝，在家里，他被迫听了死去的肯尼迪的音乐很多年。
The old version of Guarino, the one parodied by Jello, has pretty much vanished from the world.
旧版的瓜里诺（Jello 模仿的那个）几乎已经从世界上消失了。
Jello has never met the new Guarino and, given the hand that Jello had in defining the old one, we decided it was time for an introduction.
Jello 从未见过新的 Guarino，鉴于 Jello 在定义旧 Guarino 方面的能力，我们决定是时候进行介绍了。
I don't think-- I think our only conversation was right after the trial.
我不认为——我认为我们唯一的谈话是在审判结束后。
When you handed me the album.
当你把专辑递给我的时候。
I remember that.
我记得。
Yeah, I held up the insert from an extended-play recording by a band called Big Black, called Headache , that had a pathology photo of somebody's head was split open inside, thinking, if you think the Giger painting is offensive, wait till you see this.
是的，我举起了一个名为“Big Black”、名为“Headache”的乐队的加长播放录音的插入内容，其中有一张某人头部被裂开的病理照片，心想，如果你认为吉格尔的画作令人反感，那就等到你看到这个为止。
Yes, I thought that was really sweet of you to do.
是的，我觉得你这么做真是太好了。
I remember--
我记得——
I think you said, don't be a bad winner.
我想你说过，不要成为一个糟糕的赢家。
I took that very seriously, and I thought you had a point on that.
我非常认真地对待这一点，我认为你说得有道理。
And then the elevator doors closed.
然后电梯门关上了。
And away I went.
然后我就走了。
Years ago, Jello heard that Michael regretted the case.
几年前，杰洛听说迈克尔对此案感到后悔。
And Jello wasn't angry at him anymore.
果冻不再生他的气了。
So this became a heart-to-heart conversation pretty quickly.
所以这很快就变成了一次心与心的对话。
--and she said, well, I think it was, you probably had a little bit-- maybe more than a little bit-- to do with my changing my mind about what the priorities ought to be at the City Attorney's Office.
——她说，嗯，我想是的，你可能与我改变对市检察官办公室优先事项的看法有关——也许不止一点点。
And I remember that you said in some interview, Jello, that I seemed so pure.
我记得你在一次采访中说过，杰洛，我看起来很纯洁。
I was trying to look out for-- I thought I was looking out for the youth of America.
我试图寻找——我以为我正在寻找美国的年轻人。
And I knew the exact degree of sarcasm-- Then I think I did a little soul-searching after that trial.
我知道讽刺的确切程度——然后我想在那次审判之后我做了一些自我反省。
So it was all for the good, really.
所以这一切都是为了好的，真的。
Well, what I'm getting out of all of this today is Mr. Guarino crediting me with being, long-term, a positive influence on his life.
好吧，今天我从这一切中得到的是瓜里诺先生认为我对他的生活产生了长期的积极影响。
And I never would have guessed that that could have happened.
我从来没有想到会发生这种事。
And that makes it all the more worthwhile to keep causing trouble the way I do.
这使得像我这样继续制造麻烦变得更加值得。
I mean it always--
我的意思始终是——
After a few minutes, these two were talking like old war buddies.
几分钟后，两人就像老战友一样聊天。
Then they were just talking.
然后他们就只是说话。
And then it was hard to get a word in edgewise.
然后就很难插嘴了。
They reminisced about the trial.
他们回忆起审判的情景。
--I mean at the time, you came across quite zealous.
——我是说，当时你给人的印象是相当热心。
Is that a compliment?
这是赞美吗？
David Segal They cleared up a few nagging questions.
大卫·西格尔 他们解决了一些棘手的问题。
Why was it necessary for Detective Carter to lie on the witness stand about a point that didn't really even matter?
为什么卡特警探有必要在证人席上就一个根本不重要的问题撒谎？
They talked politics-- Al Gore, 2000 elections.
他们谈论政治——阿尔·戈尔、2000 年选举。
Yeah, he did win.
是的，他确实赢了。
Michael Guarino He did win.
迈克尔·瓜里诺 他确实赢了。
Yeah.
是的。
Sure.
当然。
Jello Biafra He didn't even question--
杰洛·比亚夫拉 他甚至没有问过——
These two guys, who were at war for a year and a half, were actually bonding.
这两个交战了一年半的家伙，实际上已经结下了不解之缘。
Politically, they were on the same page.
在政治上，他们的立场是一致的。
And it was a page where you don't find a lot of Americans these days.
现在在这个页面上你找不到很多美国人。
And I'm hoping that they'll see the similarities between Bush and Mussolini, frankly, because--
坦率地说，我希望他们能看到布什和墨索里尼之间的相似之处，因为——
Well, the one who's the most like Mussolini is Schwarzenegger.
嗯，最像墨索里尼的就是施瓦辛格。
Can I interrupt you and just say it's kind of hard to imagine that you guys ever were adversaries.
我可以打断一下你吗，只是说很难想象你们曾经是对手。
I have a good feeling about Jello.
我对果冻有好感。
I don't think you can fake fondness.
我不认为你可以假装喜爱。
And I know I can't.
我知道我不能。
If I'm not fond of somebody, people can tell it pretty fast.
如果我不喜欢某人，人们很快就能告诉我。
Yep.
是的。
Michael Guarino But I'm fond of Jello.
Michael Guarino 但我喜欢果冻。
I think he's a good guy.
我认为他是个好人。
Well, thank you.
嗯，谢谢。
I don't know what else to say on that.
我不知道对此还能说些什么。
I think I said earlier, I forgave Mr. Guarino a long time ago for his role in the original prosecution.
我想我之前说过，我很久以前就原谅了瓜里诺先生在最初起诉中所扮演的角色。
And I've learned over the years that people do change.
多年来我了解到人们确实会改变。
And sometimes it can be very interesting to get to know people who in earlier times may have tormented you.
有时，认识那些早年曾折磨过你的人会很有趣。
They talked for over an hour.
他们聊了一个多小时。
By the end, these two were exchanging phone numbers.
最后，两人交换了电话号码。
They were planning to go to dinner together, along with Guarino's son.
他们计划和瓜里诺的儿子一起去吃晚饭。
My son is probably one of your biggest fans.
我儿子可能是你最大的粉丝之一。
How old is he now?
他现在几岁了？
Michael Guarino He's 22.
迈克尔·瓜里诺 他 22 岁。
Wow.
哇。
Michael Guarino Yeah, he's 22 years old.
Michael Guarino 是的，他今年 22 岁。
And he would play your stuff so loud that half the block could hear it.
他会把你的东西放得那么大声，半个街区都能听到。
I think I did that with The Stooges, when I was a kid.
我想当我还是个孩子的时候，我就在 The Stooges 中做到了这一点。
Well, he was just a huge fan.
好吧，他只是一个超级粉丝。
David Segal When you know your enemy and your enemy knows you, it's sometimes hard to stay enemies.
大卫·西格尔（David Segal）：当你了解你的敌人，而你的敌人也了解你时，有时很难继续成为敌人。
And yes, the ill-fated prosecution of Jello Biafra will probably make it into Michael Guarino's obituary, if it's not actually in the headline.
是的，对杰洛·比亚夫拉（Jello Biafra）的不幸起诉可能会出现在迈克尔·瓜里诺（Michael Guarino）的讣告中，即使它实际上没有出现在头条新闻中。
But at this point, Guarino can't be bothered to care that much.
不过此时瓜里诺也懒得管那么多了。
The people who know him know he's changed, and most important, his adversary knows he's changed.
认识他的人都知道他变了，最重要的是，他的对手也知道他变了。
To put this in sheep terms, the lamb can lie down with the lion if the lion has turned himself into a lamb.
用羊的话说，如果狮子把自己变成了羔羊，那么羔羊就可以和狮子躺在一起。
Or put another way-- one that doesn't appear in the Bible-- maybe you can un-[BEEP] a sheep.
或者换一种方式——圣经中没有出现的方式——也许你可以取消[嘟嘟]一只羊。
It just takes longer for word of that to get around.
只是这个消息需要更长的时间才能传开。
When he's not here on the radio trying to get predators and prey to sit down together and make nice, David Segal is a reporter for the Washington Post .
当大卫·西格尔不在电台试图让掠食者和猎物坐在一起和睦相处时，他是《华盛顿邮报》的记者。
[MUSIC - "I FOUGHT THE LAW," DEAD KENNEDYS]
[音乐-“我反抗法律”，死肯尼迪]
Act Three, Eight Percent of Nothing.
第三幕，百分之八的虚无。
Well we end our program today with a story about what it means to know your enemy in a more domestic setting, namely within a marriage.
好吧，我们今天以一个故事来结束我们的节目，这个故事讲述了在更家庭的环境中，即在婚姻中，了解你的敌人意味着什么。
The story is by Etgar Keret, read for us by Matt Malloy.
这个故事由埃特加·凯雷特（Etgar Keret）撰写，由马特·马洛伊（Matt Malloy）为我们朗读。
Benny Brokerage had been waiting for them in the doorway for almost half an hour.
本尼经纪公司已经在门口等了他们快半个小时了。
And when they arrived he tried to act as if it didn't make him mad.
当他们到达时，他试图表现得好像这不会让他生气。
"It's all her fault," the old man sniggered, and held out his hand for a firm, no-nonsense shake.
“都是她的错。”老人窃笑道，伸出手，坚定、严肃地握了握。
"Don't believe Butchie," the peroxide urged him.
“别相信布奇，”过氧化物敦促他。
She looked at least 15 years younger than her man.
她看起来比她的男人至少年轻15岁。
"We got here earlier, except we couldn't find any parking." And Benny Brokerage gave her his foxy smile, like he really gave a damn why she and Butchie were late.
“我们到得比较早，只是找不到停车位。”本尼经纪公司给了她狡猾的微笑，就像他真的很在乎她和布奇为什么迟到一样。
He showed them the apartment, which was almost completely furnished with a high ceiling and a kitchen window that almost gave you a view of the sea.
他带他们参观了公寓，公寓几乎家具齐全，天花板很高，厨房的窗户几乎可以看到海景。
He had barely gotten through half the usual round when Butchie pulled out his checkbook and said he'd take it, and that he was even OK with paying a year's rent upfront, except that he wanted a bit off the top, just to feel like he wasn't being taken for a ride.
当布奇拿出支票簿并表示他愿意接受时，他才刚刚完成了一半的回合，而且他甚至可以提前支付一年的租金，只是他想要一点好处，只是为了感觉自己没有被欺骗。
Benny Brokerage explained that the owner was living abroad, so he wasn't at liberty to lower the price.
Benny Brokerage解释说，业主住在国外，所以他不能随意降低价格。
Butchie insisted it was small change.
布奇坚称这只是零钱。
"As far as I'm concerned," he said, "you can take it off your commission.
“就我而言，”他说，“你可以把它从你的佣金中取消。
What's your cut?"
你的切是什么？”
"Eight," Benny Brokerage said after a moment's pause, preferring not to risk a lie.
“八，”本尼经纪公司停顿片刻后说道，他不想冒撒谎的风险。
"So you'll still be left with five," Butchie announced, and finished writing out the check.
“所以你仍然剩下五个，”布奇宣布，并写完支票。
When he saw that the broker wasn't holding out his hand to take it, he added, "Look at it this way.
当他看到经纪人没有伸出手去接时，他补充道：“这样看。
The market's in the cellar.
市场在地窖里。
And 5% of something's a lot more than 8% of nothing."
5% 的东西远比 8% 没有的东西强得多。”
Butchie, or Tuvia Minster, which was the name that appeared on the check, said the peroxide would drop by the next morning to pick up an extra key.
支票上出现的名字是布奇（Butchie）或图维亚大教堂（Tuvia Minster），他说过氧化物会在第二天早上过来领取一把额外的钥匙。
Benny Brokerage said, no problem, except that it had to be before 11:00, because he had some appointments after that.
Benny Brokerage说，没问题，只是必须在11:00之前，因为在那之后他还有一些约会。
The next day, she didn't show.
第二天，她没有出现。
It was 11:20 already, and Benny Brokerage, who was aching to leave but didn't really want to stand her up, pulled the check out of the drawer.
已经是11点20分了，本尼经纪公司很想离开，但又不想放手，从抽屉里拿出了支票。
It had the office phone numbers, but he preferred to avoid another tedious conversation with Butchie and went for the home number instead.
上面有办公室电话号码，但他宁愿避免与布奇再次进行乏味的谈话，而是拨打了家庭电话号码。
It wasn't until she answered that he remembered that he didn't even know her name, so he opted for Mrs. Minster.
直到她回答后，他才想起来自己连她的名字都不知道，于是他选择了明斯特夫人。
She somehow sounded a little less dumb on the phone, but she still couldn't remember who he was or that they'd made an appointment for that morning.
不知怎的，她在电话里听起来不那么愚蠢了，但她仍然不记得他是谁，也不记得他们那天早上有约会。
Benny Brokerage kept his cool and reminded her slowly-- the way you do when you're talking to a child-- how he had met with her and her husband the day before and how they had signed for the apartment.
本尼经纪人保持冷静，慢慢地提醒她——就像你和孩子说话时那样——前一天他是如何与她和她的丈夫见面的，以及他们是如何签下公寓的。
There was no response at the other end.
另一端没有任何反应。
And when she finally asked him to describe what she looked like, he realized he'd really blown it.
当她最终要求他描述她的样子时，他意识到他真的搞砸了。
"The truth is," he crooned, "that I must have the wrong number.
“事实是，”他低声说道，“我肯定打错号码了。
What did you say your husband's name is?
你说你丈夫叫什么名字？
That's it, then.
那么就这样吧。
I was looking for Nissim and Dalia.
我正在寻找尼西姆和达莉亚。
Those 411 people messed me up again.
那411个人又把我搞乱了。
I'm really sorry.
我真的很抱歉。
Goodbye." And he slammed the receiver down before she had a chance to answer.
再见。”在她有机会回答之前，他把听筒摔了下来。
The peroxide arrived at the office 15 minutes later, eyes at half-mast and a face that hadn't been washed yet.
15分钟后，过氧化氢抵达办公室，双眼已下半旗，脸还没有洗干净。
"I'm sorry," she yawned.
“对不起，”她打呵欠。
"It took me a half an hour to find a cab."
“我花了半个小时才找到一辆出租车。”
The following morning, when he arrived at the office, there was a woman waiting outside on the sidewalk.
第二天早上，当他到达办公室时，一名妇女在外面的人行道上等候。
She looked about 40, and something about the way she was dressed, about her fragrance, was so not-from-around-here that when he spoke, he instinctively went for his most genteel pronunciation.
她看起来大约40岁，她的衣着和身上的香水味都与这里格格不入，以至于当他说话时，他本能地采用了最文雅的发音。
It turned out she was looking for a two or three room place.
原来她正在寻找两三个房间的地方。
She'd prefer to buy.
她更愿意买。
But she didn't rule out a rental as long as it was available right away.
但她并不排除出租的可能性，只要能立即提供。
Benny Brokerage said he did happen to have a few nice apartments for sale, and that because the market was in a slump, they would be reasonably priced, too.
Benny Brokerage表示，他确实有几套不错的公寓待售，而且由于市场不景气，这些公寓的价格也会很合理。
He asked her how she'd found him, and she said she had looked in the Yellow Pages.
他问她是怎么找到他的，她说她查过黄页。
He said no, that there hadn't been a Benny for ages.
他说不，已经很久没有本尼了。
"I kept the name in order not to lose the good will.
“我保留这个名字是为了不失去善意。
I'm Michael." He smiled.
我是迈克尔。”他笑了。
"The truth is, when I'm on the job even I forget sometimes."
“事实是，当我在工作时，有时我什至会忘记。”
"I'm Leah." The woman smiled back.
“我是莉亚。”女人回以微笑。
"Leah Minster.
“利亚·明斯特。
We spoke on the phone yesterday."
我们昨天通了电话。”
"This is a little uncomfortable," Leah Minster said all of a sudden, out of nowhere.
“这有点不舒服，”莉娅·明斯特突然说道。
The first apartment had been too dark.
第一间公寓太暗了。
And they were walking through the second one.
他们正在走过第二个。
Benny Brokerage tried to play dumb, and started talking about how simple it would be to renovate and stuff like that, as if she'd been referring to the apartment.
本尼经纪公司试图装傻，并开始谈论翻新是多么简单之类的事情，就好像她指的是公寓一样。
"After you phoned me," Leah Minster ignored his reply, "I tried to talk it over with him.
“你给我打电话后，”莉娅·明斯特无视他的回答，“我试图和他谈谈这件事。
At first he lied, but then he got tired of it and confessed.
起初他撒了谎，但后来他厌倦了，就承认了。
That's what the apartment is for.
这就是公寓的用途。
I'm leaving him."
我要离开他了。”
Benny Brokerage continued showing her around, thinking to himself that it was none of his business, that there was no reason for him to get uptight.
本尼经纪公司继续带她四处参观，心想这不关他的事，他没有理由紧张。
"Is she young?" Leah Minster persisted.
“她年轻吗？”利亚·明斯特坚持不懈。
And he nodded and said, "She's not nearly as pretty as you.
他点点头，说道：“她没有你漂亮。
I hate having to say a thing like this about a client, but he's an idiot."
我讨厌对客户说这样的话，但他是个白痴。”
The third apartment had better light.
第三间公寓光线更好。
And when he showed her the view of the park from the bedroom window, he felt her moving closer-- not touching him exactly, but close enough.
当他从卧室的窗户向她展示公园的景色时，他感觉到她靠近了——虽然没有完全接触到他，但已经足够近了。
And even though she liked the apartment, she wanted him to show her another one.
尽管她喜欢这套公寓，但她还是想让他带她去看另一套。
In the car, she kept asking him all sorts of questions about the peroxide.
在车上，她不断地问他各种关于过氧化物的问题。
And Benny Brokerage tried to put her down but stay kind of vague at the same time.
本尼经纪公司试图压制她，但同时又保持着某种含糊的态度。
He didn't really feel comfortable with it, but he went on because he saw it was making her happy.
他对此感到不太舒服，但他继续说下去，因为他看到这让她高兴。
Whenever they stopped talking, there was a kind of tension, especially at the stoplights.
每当他们停止说话时，就会有一种紧张感，尤其是在红绿灯处。
And somehow he couldn't think of anything to say the way he usually could, a little story that would take their minds off of being stuck.
不知何故，他想不出有什么话可以像平常那样说，一个可以让他们摆脱困境的小故事。
All he could do was stare at the traffic light and wait for it to change.
他所能做的就是盯着红绿灯，等待红绿灯变灯。
At one of the intersections, even when the light changed, the car in front of them, a Mercedes, didn't move.
在一个十字路口，即使信号灯变了，他们前面的那辆车，一辆奔驰，也没有动。
Benny Brokerage slammed the horn twice and cursed the driver through the window.
本尼经纪按了两声喇叭，隔着车窗咒骂司机。
And when the guy in the Mercedes didn't seem to give a damn, he stormed out of the car.
当奔驰车里的那个人似乎毫不在意时，他冲出了车。
Turned out, there was nobody to pick a fight with, though, because the driver, who seemed at first to be dozing, didn't wake up even when Benny Brokerage nudged him.
事实证明，没有人可以挑衅，因为司机一开始似乎在打瞌睡，即使本尼经纪公司推了他一下，他也没有醒来。
Then the ambulance crew arrived and said it was a stroke.
然后救护人员赶到并说这是中风。
They searched the driver's pockets and the car, but they couldn't find any ID.
他们搜查了司机的口袋和汽车，但没有找到任何身份证件。
And Benny Brokerage felt kind of rotten for cursing the guy without a name, and he was sorry for the mean things he had said about the peroxide too, even though that really had nothing to do with it.
本尼经纪公司因为咒骂这个没有名字的家伙而感到有点恶心，他也为他对过氧化物所说的刻薄的话感到抱歉，尽管这实际上与它无关。
Leah Minster sat beside him in the car looking pale.
车里莉亚·明斯特坐在他旁边，脸色苍白。
He drove her back to the office and made them both some coffee.
他开车送她回办公室，给他们俩泡了杯咖啡。
"The truth is that I didn't tell him anything," she said, and took a sip of the instant.
“事实是我什么也没告诉他，”她说，然后喝了一口。
"I was lying, actually, just so you'd tell me about her.
“事实上，我在撒谎，只是为了让你告诉我关于她的事情。
I'm sorry, but I just had to find out."
抱歉，但我只是想找出答案。”
Benny Brokerage smiled and told himself and her that there was no harm done, really, that all they had done was see a couple of apartments and some poor guy who'd dropped dead.
本尼经纪公司微笑着告诉自己和她，没有造成任何伤害，真的，他们所做的只是看到几套公寓和一个倒地身亡的可怜人。
She finished her coffee, said sorry again, and left.
她喝完咖啡，再次说了声抱歉，然后就离开了。
And Michael, who still had a few sips to go, looked around his office, a two-by-three cubicle with a window overlooking the main drag.
迈克尔还喝了几口酒，环顾了他的办公室，这是一个两乘三的小隔间，有一扇窗户可以俯瞰主干道。
Suddenly the place seemed so small and transparent, like the ant colony he got for his bar mitzvah a million years ago.
突然间，这个地方变得如此小而透明，就像一百万年前他为成人礼准备的蚁群一样。
And all the good will he had boasted about so solemnly just two hours earlier also sounded like crap.
而他在两个小时前还郑重地吹嘘过的所有善意听起来也像是废话。
Lately it had begun bothering him that people called him Benny.
最近，人们叫他本尼开始让他烦恼。
Matt Malloy, reading a short story by Etgar Keret which will be published here next year in a collection called The Nimrod Flipout from Farrar, Straus, and Giroux.
马特·马洛伊（Matt Malloy）正在阅读埃特加·凯雷特（Etgar Keret）的短篇小说，该小说将于明年在法拉尔、斯特劳斯和吉鲁的《尼姆罗德翻转》合集中出版。
Etgar Keret is also the author of the book, The Bus Driver Who Thought That He Was God.
埃特加·凯雷特 (Etgar Keret) 也是《以为自己是上帝的公交车司机》一书的作者。
Our program was produced today by Jane Feltes and myself, with Alex Blumberg, Diane Cook, Wendy Dorr, Sarah Koenig and Lisa Pollak.
今天我们的节目由 Jane Feltes 和我本人以及 Alex Blumberg、Diane Cook、Wendy Dorr、Sarah Koenig 和 Lisa Pollak 共同制作。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Elizabeth Meister runs our website.
伊丽莎白·梅斯特 (Elizabeth Meister) 负责运营我们的网站。
Production help from Todd Bachmann and Kevin Clark.
托德·巴赫曼 (Todd Bachmann) 和凯文·克拉克 (Kevin Clark) 为制作提供帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Stephen Dubner's book, where we first learned about Stetson Kennedy and Superman, is called Freakonomics.
[鸣谢] 斯蒂芬·杜布纳 (Stephen Dubner) 的书《魔鬼经济学》是我们第一次了解斯泰森·肯尼迪和超人的书。
It comes out in June.
它将于六月上市。
Our website, www.thisamericanlife.org, where you can listen to our shows for absolutely free.
我们的网站 www.thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中完全免费收听我们的节目。
Or you know you can download audio of our program at audible.com/thisamericanlife.
或者您知道可以在 audible.com/thisamericanlife 下载我们节目的音频。
They have public radio programs, best-selling books, even the New York Times , all at audible.com.
他们有公共广播节目、畅销书，甚至《纽约时报》，都在 audible.com 上。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight for our program by Torey Malatia, who has a message today for everyone.
[资金来源] Torey Malatia 对我们的项目进行 WBEZ 管理监督，他今天向大家传达了一条信息。
What this country needs is a good Klux-ing.
这个国家需要的是一个好的三党。
I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life.
我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。