282: DIY - This American Life
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Sign up for a free Life Partners trial, and you can watch the video “A Night of Stories and Improv.”
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #282 | August 25, 2017 282: DIY Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 282 集 | 2017 年 8 月 25 日 282：DIY 注：《This American Life》是为耳朵而生，旨在被聆听。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass Carl King has a spare bedroom in his house in Crown Heights, Brooklyn that's filled with court transcripts and police reports.
序言 艾拉·格拉斯·卡尔·金在布鲁克林皇冠高地的家里有一间闲置的卧室，里面装满了法庭笔录和警方报告。
There's a stack next to his bed, too, maybe 1,000 pages high.
他的床边也有一叠书，大概有 1,000 页高。
The case that he's working on right now is a murder, and the crime scene photos are kind of hard to look at-- a young woman, dead and bloody in the back of a store.
他现在正在处理的案件是一起谋杀案，犯罪现场的照片有点难以看——一名年轻女子死在商店后面，血迹斑斑。
The police think that she was murdered in a robbery, but Carl has his own theory.
警方认为她是在抢劫中被谋杀的，但卡尔有自己的理论。
This murder occurred behind certain doors where the manager would be doing the operation, the daily operation, so this is certainly someone knew about this store and the full operation.
这起谋杀案发生在经理负责日常运作的某些门后面，所以这肯定是有人知道这家商店和完整的运作。
It has to be an inside job.
这一定是内部工作。
Carl King's not a detective.
卡尔·金不是侦探。
He's not a lawyer.
他不是律师。
He's just a guy who takes on cases that the police think they've already solved-- Cases where somebody has already been locked away in prison, but where Carl King thinks they got the wrong guy.
他只是一个接手警方认为已经解决的案件的人——在这些案件中，有人已经被关进监狱，但卡尔·金认为他们抓错了人。
Like this case.
就像这个案例。
We got this case approximately two years ago.
我们大约两年前接到这个案例。
And we're actually reinvestigating the case, you know, to overturn this conviction to give this young man back his life, actually.
你知道，我们实际上正在重新调查此案，以推翻这一信念，让这个年轻人重获新生。
I got involved looking into these type of cases where guys are wrongfully accused based on a friend of mine was actually in that type of situation where he was accused wrongfully.
我参与调查此类案件，这些案件中，人们被错误地指控，因为我的一个朋友实际上就处于这种被错误指控的情况。
To save his friend, Carl taught himself how to read court records and find witnesses.
为了拯救他的朋友，卡尔自学了如何阅读法庭记录并寻找证人。
He has a special gift for convincing people who normally wouldn't talk to the law that it's the right thing to testify.
他有一种特殊的天赋，可以让那些通常不会诉诸法律的人相信出庭作证是正确的。
In fact, his lack of official training might be his biggest advantage in these cases.
事实上，在这些情况下，他缺乏正式训练可能是他最大的优势。
Today on our program, the story of how he got into this line of work, how he saved his friend, how a complete amateur cracked the case that the New York criminal justice system-- some of the most experienced detectives and lawyers in the world-- couldn't crack.
今天在我们的节目中，讲述了他如何进入这一行业，如何拯救他的朋友，一个完全业余的人如何破获纽约刑事司法系统（世界上一些最有经验的侦探和律师）无法破获的案件。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
The story you're about to hear today happens in two acts.
你今天要听到的故事分两幕发生。
The first act is tragedy.
第一幕是悲剧。
The second act is redemption.
第二幕是救赎。
The first half of this story is like this slow motion train wreck.
这个故事的前半部分就像慢动作的火车残骸。
A teenager tells a lie that sets this process in motion where one bad thing happens after another after another, getting worse and worse until an innocent man-- a complete stranger to this teenager-- ends up incarcerated for years.
一名青少年说了一个谎言，从而启动了这一过程，一件坏事接二连三地发生，变得越来越糟，直到一个无辜的人——这个青少年完全陌生——最终被监禁多年。
In the second half, an unlikely group of people come together and simply decide that they're going to set things right and teach themselves how.
在下半场，一群不太可能的人聚集在一起，简单地决定他们要纠正事情并自学如何做。
It's really something.
真的是很了不起。
We'll get back to Carl King halfway through our story.
我们将在故事中途回到卡尔·金。
Let's start with the crime.
我们先从犯罪开始吧。
Our story begins in 1980 in the Flatbush neighborhood of Brooklyn among people Carl didn't even know back then.
我们的故事始于 1980 年，地点是布鲁克林的弗拉特布什社区，周围的人当时卡尔都不认识。
Anya Bourg investigated the story.
安雅·布尔格调查了这个故事。
On April 10, 1980, Martell Hamilton was standing outside his junior high school.
1980 年 4 月 10 日，马爹利·汉密尔顿站在他的初中外面。
He was yelling up at his girlfriend in a school window when a kid named Thomas Charlemagne came riding up on his bike.
当一个名叫托马斯·查理曼的孩子骑着自行车过来时，他正在学校的窗户里对女友大喊大叫。
Thomas was 14 years old, and he was the kind of kid who tags around with older kids, trying to fit in, eager to be liked.
托马斯 14 岁，他是那种喜欢跟大孩子打交道的孩子，试图融入其中，渴望被人喜欢。
Martell was a year older than Thomas and remembers it this way.
马爹利比托马斯大一岁，他是这样记得的。
He called me by my nickname, which was Johnny.
他叫我的昵称，叫约翰尼。
So he said, Johnny, Johnny, your brother got shot.
所以他说，约翰尼，约翰尼，你的兄弟被枪杀了。
Your brother got shot.
你弟弟被枪杀了。
And I said, what?
我说，什么？
And he said, your brother Mario got shot.
他说，你的兄弟马里奥被枪杀了。
And he said, Johnny, I saw what happened.
他说，约翰尼，我看到发生了什么事。
Remember those words, "I saw what happened." They start a chain reaction that in the end takes over 21 years to undo, and they're completely untrue.
请记住这句话：“我看到了发生的事情。”他们引发了连锁反应，最终需要 21 年多的时间才能消除，而且他们完全不真实。
I think he only told me that so that maybe trying to make me feel better, and trying-- thinking that he's being helpful, you know?
我想他告诉我这些只是为了让我感觉好一点，并尝试——认为他是在帮忙，你知道吗？
But he only-- you know, instead of being helpful, ended up creating a disaster.
但他只是——你知道，他不但没有提供帮助，反而酿成了一场灾难。
Martell followed Thomas Charlemagne, and they ran back to the scene of the crime.
马泰尔跟随托马斯·查理曼，他们跑回了犯罪现场。
So as I got there, I saw my brother bleeding, you know, heavily.
当我到达那里时，我看到我哥哥流血了，你知道，血流得很厉害。
And I felt like I was outside of my body because I couldn't believe, you know, that my brother was really shot.
我感觉自己脱离了自己的身体，因为我无法相信，你知道，我的兄弟真的被枪杀了。
He was bleeding so profusely from his eye and his nostrils, and they asked me, do you know who this is?
他的眼睛和鼻孔流了很多血，他们问我，你知道这是谁吗？
And I told them, yes, that's my brother.
我告诉他们，是的，那是我的兄弟。
And they asked me how old he was, and I told them how old he was.
他们问我他多大了，我告诉他们他多大了。
And then next question they asked me, you know, do you know would want to shoot your brother?
然后他们问我下一个问题，你知道吗，你知道会想射杀你的兄弟吗？
And I said, no, I don't.
我说，不，我不。
And I said, but this guy-- my friend here said he saw what happened.
我说，但是这个人——我的朋友说他看到了发生的事情。
And from that moment on, they held on to Thomas Charlemagne as a witness.
从那一刻起，他们就以托马斯·查理曼为证人。
The police put the boys in the back of a patrol car, and they took them to the station.
警察把男孩们放在巡逻车的后座上，然后把他们带到了警察局。
They escorted Thomas Charlemagne to an interrogation room to question him, and they told Martell the news that his brother Mario had died.
他们护送托马斯·查理曼到审讯室审问他，并告诉马泰尔他的兄弟马里奥去世的消息。
No one talked to him.
没有人跟他说话。
No one asked how he was doing.
没有人问他过得怎么样。
No one told him where his family was.
没有人告诉他他的家人在哪里。
They simply sat him in a chair to wait outside the room where Thomas Charlemagne was being interviewed.
他们只是让他坐在椅子上，在托马斯·查理曼接受采访的房间外面等待。
Martell remembers Detective Wasser, the lead detective in the case, as a lumbering white guy who yelled a lot.
马泰尔记得该案的首席侦探瓦塞尔侦探是一个笨拙的白人，经常大喊大叫。
And from where he was sitting, he could overhear Thomas's entire interrogation.
从他坐的地方，他可以听到托马斯的整个审讯过程。
What I heard was he raised his voice at Thomas.
我听到的是他对托马斯提高了声音。
Did you see did you see this guy with a gun?
你看到这个拿着枪的家伙了吗？
And Thomas said, no, I don't-- I don't see him with a gun.
托马斯说，不，我没有——我没有看到他拿着枪。
So he was like, how do you mean you don't see him with a gun?
所以他说，你怎么没看到他拿着枪？
If he shot him, you got to see a gun.
如果他开枪打死了他，你就必须看到一把枪。
Did you see a gun?
你看到枪了吗？
Like-- and he-- you can hear Thomas's voice quivering, like, yeah, I-- I guess so.
就像——他——你可以听到托马斯的声音在颤抖，就像，是的，我——我想是的。
I guess so.
大概吧。
Yeah, I did see-- I did see him with a gun.
是的，我确实看到了——我确实看到他拿着枪。
Yeah, I did see him with a gun.
是的，我确实看到他拿着枪。
In the neighborhood, Martell says, Thomas had a reputation for lying.
马爹利说，在附近，托马斯以撒谎闻名。
For instance, he told Martell's friends he was from Jamaica because they were from Jamaica, when in fact he was from Haiti.
例如，他告诉马爹利的朋友他来自牙买加，因为他们来自牙买加，而事实上他来自海地。
But the police didn't know any of that, and they kept 14-year-old Thomas in a room for hours on end, grilled him, showed him photo after photo, until at some point he did the only thing he knew how to do to end it.
但警方对此一无所知，他们将 14 岁的托马斯连续关在一个房间里几个小时，盘问他，给他看一张又一张的照片，直到某个时刻，他做了他唯一知道如何做的事情来结束这一切。
He pointed at a photo at random.
他随意指着一张照片。
The unlucky guy whose photo he picked was a man named Collin Warner.
他挑选的照片中的那个不幸的家伙是一个名叫科林·华纳（Collin Warner）的人。
The next day, the police gave the same treatment to Martell.
第二天，警方对马爹利进行了同样的处理。
Detective Wasser came by his house and sat him at the kitchen table.
瓦瑟警探来到他家，让他坐在厨房的桌子旁。
Martell was 15.
马爹利当时 15 岁。
Then he laid out four photos on the table, like how you would lay cards out evenly across.
然后他把四张照片放在桌子上，就像你把卡片均匀地摊开一样。
And he said, take a look at these photos.
他说，看看这些照片。
Do you know any of these guys?
你认识这些人吗？
And I said, no, I don't.
我说，不，我不。
So he said, you sure you don't know none of these guys?
所以他说，你确定你不认识这些人吗？
He said, look again.
他说，你再看看。
And I looked at the photo, and I said, no, I don't know any of these guys.
我看着照片，我说，不，我不认识这些人。
Now mind you, I was still crying at the time when he was asking me these questions.
请注意，当他问我这些问题时，我还在哭。
And he said what about this guy right here?
他说这里的这个人怎么样？
Then he took Collin Warner's photo and pushed it out of the lineup and let it stick above the other three photos.
然后他拍下了科林·华纳的照片，将其从队列中推出，并让它贴在其他三张照片之上。
And he said, you don't know this guy?
他说，你不认识这个人？
You don't-- you ever seen this guy before?
你以前没见过这个人吗？
And I said, I might have.
我说，我可能有。
I might have seen him before.
我以前可能见过他。
And the only reason why I told him that was because, you know, he just kept badgering me.
我告诉他这件事的唯一原因是，你知道，他一直缠着我。
And I just wanted him to stop, so I told him what he wanted to hear.
我只是想让他停下来，所以我告诉了他他想听的话。
And he said, well, that's the guy that shot your brother.
他说，好吧，就是那个射杀你兄弟的人。
And then he took up the four photos, and then he walked out of the house.
然后他拿起那四张照片，然后走出了家门。
Thomas Charlemagne's original lie was rapidly becoming the truth.
托马斯·查理曼最初的谎言很快就变成了事实。
And remember, Thomas was just 14.
请记住，托马斯只有 14 岁。
Once he started lying to the cops, he acted like any kid caught in a lie.
一旦他开始向警察撒谎，他的表现就像任何被骗的孩子一样。
He elaborated on his story, which only made things worse.
他详细阐述了自己的故事，这只会让事情变得更糟。
He told the cops that Mario talked to him as he lay dying, that the shooter waved the gun in his face before he ran away.
他告诉警察，马里奥在他弥留之际与他交谈，枪手在他逃跑之前用枪在他脸上挥舞。
It started sounding like something out of a bad cop movie, but the police believed it, and they rushed several miles down Flatbush Avenue to arrest the guy in a photo, Collin Warner.
这听起来像是一部坏警察电影中的情节，但警方相信了这一点，他们沿着弗拉特布什大道冲了几英里，逮捕了照片中的那个人科林·华纳。
OK.
好的。
This is the block I used to live on.
这是我以前住过的街区。
I used to live 801 Prospect Place.
我以前住在 Prospect Place 801 号。
Yeah.
是的。
I was living there with my mom on the second floor.
我和妈妈住在二楼。
This is Collin Warner.
这是科林·华纳。
That day, at the moment he was supposedly shooting Mario Hamilton, he'd been driving around with friends, enjoying one of the first nice days that spring.
那天，就在他应该拍摄马里奥·汉密尔顿的那一刻，他和朋友们开车兜风，享受着那年春天第一个美好的日子。
And later, he played basketball in the park.
后来，他在公园里打篮球。
He got home at 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning.
他在凌晨1:00或2:00回到家。
When I came home, though, my mother answered the door.
然而，当我回到家时，妈妈来开门。
And she's all red in the face, hysterical, asks me, where was you-- where were you that morning?
她满脸通红，歇斯底里地问我，那天早上你在哪里？
And what did you do?
你做了什么？
And the police was at the house looking for me about half an hour ago and said they wanted to talk to me about a murder.
大约半小时前，警察在家里找我，并说他们想和我谈谈谋杀案。
You know, so she told me to call them.
你知道，所以她让我给他们打电话。
I call them, and I spoke to a Detective Wasser because he left his card.
我给他们打电话，并与瓦塞尔警探交谈，因为他留下了名片。
And he tells me all he wanted to do was to talk to me in connection with a homicide that day.
他告诉我他只想和我谈谈那天与凶杀案有关的事情。
And I tell him, what you want to talk to me about when I never kill nobody?
我告诉他，当我从不杀人时，你想和我谈论什么？
I never saw no murder.
我从来没有见过谋杀。
He said, no, we just want to talk.
他说，不，我们只是想谈谈。
So I hanged up the phone on him.
于是我就挂了他的电话。
Remember, Colin was 18, a Rastafarian teenager in army fatigues with dreadlocks down his back.
请记住，科林当时 18 岁，是一位身穿军装、背上留着辫子的拉斯塔法里青少年。
His mom made him call back.
他妈妈让他回电话。
They came, came up to the apartment, you know, and they want to take me down to the precinct.
他们来了，来到公寓，你知道，他们想带我去辖区。
I said, for what?
我说，为了什么？
They said, just for questioning.
他们说，只是为了询问。
And they led me-- they led me down the stairs, and when I came in the car, then they put on the handcuffs.
他们带我走下楼梯，当我进车时，他们给我戴上手铐。
And that was that.
就是这样。
You never came back here?
你再也没有回来过这里吗？
Collin Warner Never came back till 21 years later.
科林·华纳 (Collin Warner) 直到 21 年后才回来。
The police took Collin to the same station where, hours earlier, Thomas Charlemagne had identified him out of a mug book as the murderer of Mario Hamilton.
警察将科林带到同一个警察局，几个小时前，托马斯·查理曼从一本马克簿中认出他就是谋杀马里奥·汉密尔顿的凶手。
At the time, Collin had only been living in the states a couple of years.
当时，科林在美国只生活了几年。
He immigrated from Trinidad with his family in 1978.
1978年，他与家人从特立尼达移民。
He told the police where he'd been all day.
他告诉警察他一整天都去了哪里。
They called his friends, who are now his alibis, to question them.
他们打电话给他的朋友（现在是他的不在场证明）来询问他们。
But early the next morning, they booked him for murder and sent him to Rikers Island, just north of New York City.
但第二天一早，他们以谋杀罪指控他，并将他送往纽约市北部的赖克斯岛。
I don't know, man.
我不知道，伙计。
It's just-- this just happened out of the blue, and a lot of people saying like, man, you have to have known something.
这只是——这只是突然发生的，很多人说，伙计，你一定知道一些事情。
You understand what I'm saying?
你明白我在说什么吗？
I said, I don't know nothing.
我说，我什么都不知道。
It just happened.
它就这样发生了。
One day I was free.
有一天我有空了。
The next day I was locked up.
第二天我就被关起来了。
Every few weeks, Collin would be dragged in for court hearings he didn't understand.
每隔几周，科林就会被拖去参加他不理解的法庭听证会。
He'd come before the bench.
他来到了替补席前。
The judge would say a few things in legalese that didn't make it any clearer, and then he'd go back to his cell.
法官会用法律术语说一些不太清楚的事情，然后他会回到牢房。
It all felt completely random.
这一切感觉完全是随机的。
Meanwhile, back in Flatbush where the shooting took place, most of the neighborhood knew that Collin was innocent.
与此同时，回到枪击事件发生地弗拉特布什，大多数邻居都知道科林是无辜的。
The kid who died, Mario, was from Jamaica, and so was everybody that he and his brother hung around with.
死去的孩子马里奥来自牙买加，他和他兄弟身边的每个人也来自牙买加。
To them it seemed crazy that a Trinidadian like Collin-- a Trini, as they called him-- would have had anything to do with this murder.
对他们来说，像科林这样的特立尼达人——他们称之为特里尼人——竟然与这起谋杀案有任何关系，这似乎很疯狂。
The groups didn't mix.
各组没有混合。
Mario and his Jamaican friends didn't hang with Rastas like Collin.
马里奥和他的牙买加朋友不像科林那样与拉斯塔教徒相处。
Collin wasn't even from the neighborhood.
科林甚至不是附近的人。
And word on the street was that the kid who died was shot by one of his friends, a guy named Norman Simmonds.
街上有消息称，死者是被他的一个朋友诺曼·西蒙兹开枪打死的。
Norman hadn't kept his plans much of a secret.
诺曼并没有把他的计划保密。
The day of the shooting, he saw Mario's brother Martell and told him he was looking for Mario, that he was going to kill him as revenge for the murder of a kid named Spangler.
枪击案发生当天，他看到了马里奥的兄弟马泰尔，并告诉他他正在寻找马里奥，并且要杀了他，为谋杀一个名叫斯潘格勒的孩子报仇。
When Martell was questioned by the police, he told the cops about it.
当马爹利接受警方讯问时，他向警方讲述了此事。
It's in the police report.
警方报告里有。
Here's Martell.
这是马爹利。
That same night when he laid out those cards on the dining table and when I was crying and he was saying to me, take a look at these guys, see if you recognize-- I said, but you know, this guy Norman told me he was going to shoot my brother.
那天晚上，当他把这些卡片放在餐桌上时，当我哭泣时，他对我说，看看这些人，看看你是否认识——我说，但你知道，这个诺曼告诉我他要射杀我的兄弟。
And, forget about Norman.
而且，忘记诺曼吧。
Norman has nothing to do with this.
诺曼与此无关。
I want you take a look at these guys.
我想让你看看这些家伙。
Look at these guys and see if you recognize a face.
看看这些人，看看你是否认识其中的一张脸。
And that was the attitude from there.
这就是他们的态度。
I didn't want to know anything about Norman.
我不想了解任何关于诺曼的事情。
Police reports show that over the next two weeks, two other teenagers also told the police about Norman and gave them the name of an eyewitness.
警方报告显示，在接下来的两周内，另外两名青少年也向警方讲述了诺曼的事，并向他们提供了目击者的名字。
But it took the police six months to act on the information.
但警方花了六个月的时间才根据信息采取行动。
Then in late 1980, they finally arrested Norman Simmonds for Mario Hamilton's murder.
1980 年底，他们终于以谋杀马里奥·汉密尔顿的罪名逮捕了诺曼·西蒙兹。
You'd think this would have been good news for Collin, but here's how he heard about it.
你可能认为这对科林来说是个好消息，但他是这样听说的。
Some time in November I went to court.
十一月的某个时候，我上了法庭。
And when they call our case, it was not-- it was now Collin Warner and Norman Simmonds.
当他们打电话给我们的案件时，不是——现在是科林·华纳和诺曼·西蒙兹。
So when he went back to the bullpen, I asked him, like, who are you?
所以当他回到牛棚时，我问他，你是谁？
You know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
He said, I'm Norman.
他说，我是诺曼。
You know, they have me for the-- for killing Mario.
你知道，他们抓我是因为我杀了马里奥。
So I said, I'm here for killing Mario, too.
所以我说，我来这里也是为了杀死马里奥。
And he said, but how is-- how is that?
他说，但是怎么样——怎么样？
I said, listen, man.
我说，听着，伙计。
I don't know what the hell is going on.
我不知道到底发生了什么。
I'm here for six months now.
我在这里已经六个月了。
You understand what I'm saying?
你明白我在说什么吗？
And that was it.
就是这样。
That was the whole beginning.
这就是整个开始。
Every day at every court date after that, we were together.
此后的每一天，在每个出庭日期，我们都在一起。
Didn't see no difference between him or me.
没看出他和我有什么区别。
It took a year and a half more for the trial to begin.
审判又花了一年半的时间才开始。
One of the reasons it took so long was that the only witness, Thomas Charlemagne, refused to testify.
花了这么长时间的原因之一是唯一的证人托马斯·查理曼拒绝作证。
It wasn't until he was picked up on a robbery charge that he agreed.
直到他因抢劫罪被抓捕后，他才同意了。
The trial went well for Collin.
科林的审判进展顺利。
11 jurors moved to acquit.
11名陪审员宣布无罪释放。
One held out for a conviction.
其中一人坚持要求定罪。
It was a hung jury, so the prosecution offered a plea bargain-- a two to six year sentence for Norman Simmonds, and if he accepted, Collin would walk.
这是一个悬而未决的陪审团，因此检方提出了一项认罪交易——诺曼·西蒙兹被判两到六年有期徒刑，如果他接受，科林就会离开。
His story-- this story-- would end right here.
他的故事——这个故事——就到这里结束了。
It's a bizarre moment.
这是一个奇怪的时刻。
Norman, who's only 18 and actually guilty, gets to decide both their futures-- the fate of the innocent in the hands of the guilty.
年仅 18 岁的诺曼实际上有罪，他可以决定他们的未来——无辜者的命运掌握在有罪者手中。
They told Norman to think about it.
他们告诉诺曼考虑一下。
So they sent us back to the bullpen area in the back.
所以他们把我们送回后面的牛棚区。
You know I mean-- And he asked me what should he do?
你知道我的意思是——他问我他应该做什么？
I said, listen man, you shouldn't ask me that.
我说，听着，伙计，你不应该问我这个。
That should be your decision.
那应该是你的决定。
He asked you?
他问你了？
Collin Warner Yeah.
科林·华纳 是的。
What should he do?
他该怎么办？
I say, you're not supposed to ask me that.
我说，你不应该问我这个。
And years later, when I'm telling other people this story, they say, now you made a mistake.
多年后，当我向其他人讲述这个故事时，他们说，现在你犯了一个错误。
You should have told him what to do.
你应该告诉他该怎么做。
But I'm saying, no, that's not my place.
但我要说，不，那不是我的位置。
He knows what to do.
他知道该怎么做。
I didn't--
我没有——
No. No not to this day I didn't believe I made a mistake.
不，不，直到今天我还不相信我犯了一个错误。
I mean, if you have the guts to take somebody's life, at least have the guts to take the penalty.
我的意思是，如果你有勇气夺走某人的生命，至少有勇气接受惩罚。
But still, he was so young that he was still trying to, like, say, yo, I'm going to beat this.
但他仍然如此年轻，以至于他仍在尝试说，哟，我要打败这个。
Norman turned down the plea bargain, and a second trial was set.
诺曼拒绝了辩诉交易，并安排了第二次审判。
But Collin was optimistic about his chances, as was his lawyer, Bruce Richenstrick.
但科林对自己的机会感到乐观，他的律师布鲁斯·里钦斯特里克(Bruce Richenstrick)也是如此。
I remember opening to the jury and telling them that this case was a one witness case and that the one witness they were going to hear was a liar-- an unmitigated, pathological liar.
我记得我向陪审团开场并告诉他们，这个案件是一个只有证人的案件，而他们将要听取的唯一证人是一个骗子——一个彻头彻尾的、病态的骗子。
In this kind of story, this is usually where you hear that Collin was represented by a drunk who fell asleep at his trial, or an overworked and inexperienced public defender, or someone who never handled a murder trial before.
在这类故事中，你通常会听到科林的代理律师是一名在审判中睡着的醉汉，或者是一名过度劳累且缺乏经验的公设辩护人，或者是以前从未处理过谋杀案审判的人。
That wasn't the case here.
这里的情况并非如此。
Bruce Richenstrick, Collin's lawyer in both his first and second trial, was a former homicide DA with years of experience.
布鲁斯·里肯斯特里克 (Bruce Richenstrick) 是科林一审和二审的律师，他曾是一名拥有多年经验的凶杀案检察官。
He says he never thought the case would get very far because, as a former prosecutor, he knew the prosecution's evidence was lousy.
他说，他从未想过案件会走得太远，因为作为一名前检察官，他知道检方的证据很糟糕。
In fact, there wasn't any evidence tying Collin to the crime except Thomas Charlemagne, that 14-year-old kid who told the cops he saw everything and later picked Collin out of a mug book.
事实上，除了托马斯·查理曼 (Thomas Charlemagne) 之外，没有任何证据表明科林与犯罪有关。托马斯·查理曼 (Thomas Charlemagne) 告诉警察他看到了一切，后来从一本马克杯簿中认出了科林。
But his story kept changing.
但他的故事一直在变化。
First, he said that Mario was shot in a drive-by shooting.
首先，他说马里奥在一次驾车射击中被枪杀。
Later, he said the car stopped and the shooter got out.
后来，他说车停了下来，枪手下了车。
First he said there was two people in the car.
首先他说车里有两个人。
Later, it was four.
后来，就四点了。
And most importantly, he initially told the cops that Collin fired the gun that killed Mario.
最重要的是，他最初告诉警察科林开枪杀死了马里奥。
But then at trial, he surprised everyone and said Collin was just the driver.
但在审判中，他让所有人感到惊讶，并说科林只是司机。
Norman did the shooting.
诺曼开枪了。
All this lying was good news for Bruce Richenstrick, Collin's defense attorney.
对于科林的辩护律师布鲁斯·里琴斯特里克来说，所有这些谎言都是好消息。
Here he reads from his cross-examination of Thomas Charlemagne at the trial.
在这里，他宣读了他在审判中对托马斯·查理曼大帝的盘问。
And I say to him, "Mr. Charlemagne, when you first spoke to Detective Wasser in this case, did you tell him that Collin Warner was the driver of this car?
我对他说：“查理曼先生，当你第一次与瓦塞尔侦探谈论这起案件时，你有没有告诉他科林·华纳是这辆车的司机？
Answer, yes.
答案是，是的。
And did you also tell him that the driver of the car was the very same person who shot Mario Hamilton?
你是否还告诉他，汽车司机就是枪杀马里奥·汉密尔顿的人？
Answer, yes.
答案是，是的。
So when you first spoke to Detective Wasser and you told him that Collin Warner shot Mario Hamilton, that wasn't true, was it?
所以当你第一次和瓦瑟侦探交谈时，你告诉他科林·华纳枪杀了马里奥·汉密尔顿，那不是真的，是吗？
Answer, no. Question, and when you went before a grand jury in reference to this case, you knew in your mind, did you not, that Collin Warner never shot Mario Hamilton.
回答，不。问题，当你在大陪审团面前讨论此案时，你心里知道，科林·华纳从未射杀过马里奥·汉密尔顿，不是吗？
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Answer, yes.
答案是，是的。
Question, and then you proceeded to tell the grand jury in April of 1980 that Collin Warner shot Mario Hamilton.
问题，然后你在 1980 年 4 月告诉大陪审团科林·华纳枪杀了马里奥·汉密尔顿。
Answer, yes.
答案是，是的。
Question, so you lied to the grand jury?
问，所以你对大陪审团撒了谎？
Answer, yes."
回答，是的。”
I mean, from reading this transcript, it looks like this is an open and shut, like Collin's going to walk out the door.
我的意思是，从阅读这份文字记录来看，这似乎是一个开放和封闭的局面，就像科林要走出门一样。
Yeah.
是的。
The best thing that could possibly happen for any defendant is to have the only witness agree in front of a jury that he lied.
对于任何被告来说，可能发生的最好的事情就是让唯一的证人在陪审团面前同意他撒谎。
One thing I remember about Thomas's testimony was that he never looked me in my eye.
关于托马斯的证词，我记得的一件事是他从未看着我的眼睛。
Again, Collin Warner.
再次是科林·华纳。
Collin Warner Even when he pointed me out in court, he said-- he bent his head down and pointed his finger there.
科林·华纳（Collin Warner）甚至当他在法庭上指出我时，他说——他低下头，用手指着那里。
And the judge even had to say, listen, you look-- you sure he's the right guy?
法官甚至不得不说，听着，你看——你确定他是对的人吗？
And he just glanced at me and, you know, said, yes, Collin Warner is right there.
他只是看了我一眼，然后说，是的，科林·华纳就在那里。
Because he knew he was lying.
因为他知道自己在撒谎。
He know.
他知道。
He knew.
他知道。
Everybody knew.
每个人都知道。
When he was giving his testimony, people were laughing.
当他作证时，人们都在笑。
Even the court officers had bets that I was going to win.
就连法庭官员也打赌我会赢。
I was going to win my case.
我本来要赢我的案子的。
How did you know that?
你怎么知道的？
Collin Warner No, they told us, you know, because they see us coming to court every day.
科林·华纳 不，他们告诉我们，你知道，因为他们每天都看到我们出庭。
You know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
And sometimes they talk to us and some would say, listen, man.
有时他们与我们交谈，有些人会说，听着，伙计。
You have a good shot, man.
你射得很好，伙计。
You know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
That guy's lying.
那家伙在撒谎。
The trial lasted less than a week, and according to Collin, the jury deliberated just three hours.
审判持续了不到一周，据科林称，陪审团仅审议了三个小时。
The day of the verdict, I think the verdict came in at 12 o'clock.
判决那天，我想判决书是在12点钟出来的。
They read my verdict first.
他们首先宣读了我的判决。
You know, Collin Warner, you know, guilty of murder in the second degree.
你知道，科林·华纳，你知道，犯有二级谋杀罪。
And Norman Simmonds, guilty of murder in the second degree.
还有诺曼·西蒙兹，犯有二级谋杀罪。
And after that, like it hit 12 o'clock.
之后，好像就到了12点了。
And there are some bells downtown Brooklyn.
布鲁克林市中心有一些钟声。
They started to ring, so the whole courtroom was quiet because you can't hear when the judge speaks.
他们开始响了，所以整个法庭都很安静，因为你听不到法官说话。
So everybody was quiet until the bells struck 12 times.
于是大家都很安静，直到钟声敲响了12声。
And here, I'm telling you, when that foreperson said guilty, it's like my whole life flashed in front of my face.
在这里，我告诉你，当那个工头说有罪时，我的一生就像在我面前闪现。
You know, and my knees just got weak-- you know what I'm saying-- because I sat down in the chair because I couldn't believe it.
你知道，我的膝盖变得虚弱——你知道我在说什么——因为我不敢相信，我坐在椅子上。
Even to this day, I'm saying, like, how could you say guilty listening to the evidence?
即使到了今天，我仍然会说，听了证据你怎么能说有罪呢？
If this doesn't seem to make much sense, remember that Collin and Norman were on trial together, and the police insisted Collin was involved.
如果这看起来没有多大意义，请记住科林和诺曼一起受审，警方坚称科林参与其中。
So even though Thomas's testimony didn't really add up, to the jury, Collin must have had something to do with it.
因此，尽管托马斯的证词并没有真正得到证实，但对于陪审团来说，科林一定与此有关。
And Bruce Richenstrick has another theory.
布鲁斯·里钦斯特里克还有另一种理论。
He thinks the guilty verdict had more to do with what was going on outside the courtroom than in.
他认为有罪判决更多地与法庭外发生的事情有关，而不是法庭内发生的事情。
The crime rate was soaring, and people were reacting in some pretty extreme ways.
犯罪率飙升，人们的反应非常极端。
If you recall, within months of this particular case, the Avenue X murder of Willie Turks had taken place, where a mob beat a black transit worker to death.
如果你还记得，在这起特殊案件发生后的几个月内，X 大道发生了威利·特克斯谋杀案，一群暴徒将一名黑人交通工人殴打致死。
Within a year or two of that case, we had Bernhard Goetz shooting four blacks on a subway train and ending up getting a year in jail for possession of a weapon.
在那起案件发生后的一两年内，我们让伯恩哈德·戈茨在地铁上射杀了四名黑人，最终因持有武器而被判入狱一年。
There is-- there was a pervasive, overriding fear in the city, I believe, at that time.
我相信，当时这座城市里弥漫着一种压倒一切的恐惧。
And I think that, to some degree, that might have had something to do with Collin Warner's conviction, that he was at that time a black man accused of murder.
我认为，在某种程度上，这可能与科林·华纳的定罪有关，因为他当时是一名被指控谋杀的黑人。
Well, that's all the jury needed.
嗯，这就是陪审团所需要的。
The judge perhaps needed a little more.
法官或许还需要更多一点。
Judge Albert Murray, who presided over Collin's trial, was one of the few African American judges in New York.
主持科林审判的阿尔伯特·默里法官是纽约为数不多的非裔美国法官之一。
During sentencing, he gave a sort of tortured apologetic speech to the courtroom.
在宣判期间，他在法庭上发表了一种痛苦的道歉演讲。
He said, quote, "With all my training, or at least what I've gone through, when it comes to a point like this, I realize how inadequate or how much I rely upon not pure guess, but upon hope, and how mysterious it is and how hard it is to understand why this situation exists right now.
他说，“通过我所有的训练，或者至少是我所经历的，当谈到这样的事情时，我意识到我是多么的不充分或多么依赖于纯粹的猜测，而是依赖于希望，它是多么神秘，理解为什么现在会出现这种情况是多么困难。
The system that we have, we put in process.
我们拥有的系统已经投入使用。
Is it perfect?
完美吗？
Is this verdict true?
这个判决是否属实？
I don't pretend to know.
我不会假装知道。
I don't have the capacity to actually know." End quote.
我没有能力真正知道。”结束报价。
Bruce Richenstrick says he'd never heard anything like it.
布鲁斯·里钦斯特里克 (Bruce Richenstrick) 说他从未听过这样的事情。
I think that Judge Murray was voicing what the overriding feeling was in the courtroom.
我认为穆雷法官表达了法庭上最重要的感受。
How did the jury reach that verdict?
陪审团是如何做出这一裁决的？
And there wasn't even anything in the courtroom-- in an atmosphere in the courtroom-- to give us any kind of indication that this result was going to be reached.
法庭上甚至没有任何东西——在法庭的气氛中——给我们任何迹象表明将会达到这个结果。
It was completely a surprise.
这完全是一个惊喜。
It was a surprise to me.
这对我来说是一个惊喜。
It was a surprise to Collin Warner.
这让科林·华纳感到惊讶。
And by the judge's words, which I hadn't heard in a long time, I think it was probably a surprise to him.
从法官的话来看，我已经很久没有听到这句话了，我想这可能让他感到惊讶。
Judge Murray had no choice but to sentence Collin.
穆雷法官别无选择，只能对科林判刑。
He gave him the minimum allowed by law, 15 years to life.
他给了他法律允许的最低刑期，即15年的生命。
The sentence didn't hit me until I got to the reception center for the Department of Corrections.
直到我到达惩教署接待中心后，我才意识到这句话。
They deloused me.
他们给我除虱了。
Had me-- had about 50 of us in a shower area, stripped butt naked, you know, sprayed delousing on our arms, you know, on our testicles and then bending over and spraying it in our anus and all that.
让我们大约 50 个人在一个淋浴区，脱光屁股，你知道，在我们的手臂上喷洒除虱剂，你知道，在我们的睾丸上，然后弯腰把它喷在我们的肛门上等等。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
And it was so degrading.
这太有辱人格了。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
And then I started to cry, you know what I mean, because I'm saying, like, you can't do nothing about it.
然后我开始哭，你知道我的意思，因为我说，你不能对此袖手旁观。
You're here at these people's mercy.
你在这里受这些人的摆布。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
And they lock you into a cell where there's a lot of prisoners.
他们把你锁在一个有很多囚犯的牢房里。
It's just like tiers upon tiers of prisoners, and everybody is shouting.
就像是层层叠叠的囚犯，每个人都在喊叫。
And it's like-- it's like a mad house, you know?
这就像——就像一座疯人院，你知道吗？
And I'm just trying to like-- you know, where the hell-- how did I get here?
我只是想知道——你知道，到底在哪里——我是怎么到这里的？
You know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
It's like I was transported to another planet.
我就像被传送到了另一个星球。
Anya Bourg This is where Carl King comes in, the guy you heard at the very beginning of the show.
Anya Bourg 这就是 Carl King 登场的地方，就是你在节目一开始就听到的那个人。
He was one of Collin Warner's oldest friends.
他是科林·华纳最老的朋友之一。
They grew up together in a village in Trinidad, got even closer when they moved to Brooklyn.
他们在特立尼达的一个村庄一起长大，搬到布鲁克林后关系更加亲密。
Carl took up Collin's case, partly because they were friends, and partly because he just couldn't help himself.
卡尔接手了科林的案子，部分是因为他们是朋友，部分是因为他无法控制自己。
He's the kind of guy who can devote his life to a cause, and Collin became his cause.
他是那种可以将一生奉献给一项事业的人，而科林就成了他的事业。
He visited Collin regularly in jail, went to his court appearances.
他定期去监狱探望科林，并出席他的法庭出庭。
Here's Carl.
这是卡尔。
It was a bad feeling.
这是一种很糟糕的感觉。
Talking about it now, you know, my pulse is just racing because I tell myself that, you know, it could have been me.
现在谈论这件事，你知道，我的脉搏正在加速，因为我告诉自己，你知道，这可能是我。
And I felt like it's me because it was actually to see like there's a big whale come and just swallow you up, and nobody can just dig in that whale's stomach.
我觉得那是我，因为实际上是看到有一条大鲸鱼来了，就把你吞掉了，没有人可以直接挖那条鲸鱼的胃。
It was-- I felt hopeless at that time.
那是——我当时感到很绝望。
Carl and Collin had only just finished high school.
卡尔和科林刚刚高中毕业。
Their families had no money.
他们的家人没有钱。
They didn't know any lawyers, and they weren't politically connected.
他们不认识任何律师，也没有政治关系。
So Carl made do, and he used the connections that he had.
于是卡尔就凑合着用了他所拥有的人脉。
Even if you come pick up some garbage, I would really talk to you and tell you, listen, I have a friend in jail, and he's innocent.
即使你来捡一些垃圾，我也会真的跟你说话，告诉你，听着，我有一个朋友在监狱里，他是无辜的。
Actually, everybody I encountered, Collin's case was always the issue.
事实上，在我遇到的每个人中，科林的案子始终是个问题。
Carl and Collin strategized about appeals.
卡尔和科林制定了上诉策略。
Carl raised money on the outside.
卡尔在外面筹集资金。
Collin learned to use the prison law library.
科林学会了使用监狱法律图书馆。
He put together the first appeal himself.
他亲自提出了第一个上诉。
It was denied.
但被否认了。
For the second appeal, Carl found a lawyer in the yellow pages-- also denied.
对于第二次上诉，卡尔在黄页上找到了律师，但也被拒绝了。
The next was a real estate lawyer Carl met while he was closing on his house-- denied.
下一个是卡尔在关闭他的房子时遇到的一位房地产律师，但他否认了。
And then they managed to get one of the most famous defense lawyers in the country, William Kunstler, defender of the Chicago Seven, Lenny Bruce, Martin Luther King.
然后他们设法找到了全国最著名的辩护律师之一，威廉·昆斯特勒（William Kunstler），芝加哥七人联盟的辩护人，莱尼·布鲁斯（Lenny Bruce），马丁·路德·金（Martin Luther King）。
That appeal failed as well.
该上诉也失败了。
As the years passed, Collin wasn't doing well in jail.
随着时间的流逝，科林在监狱里过得并不好。
He kept getting in fights, mostly with the guards.
他不断地与警卫打架。
He spent four of his first 10 years in prison in the box-- solitary confinement.
他在监狱的头十年里有四年是在牢房里度过的——单独监禁。
It was the fact that he shouldn't have been there at all, he says, that made him such a nightmare inmate.
他说，事实上他根本不应该在那里，这让他成为了一个噩梦般的囚犯。
Because I'm saying, like, the rules don't apply to me then because I'm innocent.
因为我是说，规则不适用于我，因为我是无辜的。
But that wasn't the case, you know?
但事实并非如此，你知道吗？
In their eyes, I was guilty.
在他们眼里，我是有罪的。
Eventually, Collin stopped rebelling.
最终，科林不再叛逆。
He enrolled in classes and work programs.
他参加了课程和工作计划。
Carl would visit often, bringing food, new clothes.
卡尔经常来访，带来食物、新衣服。
One day he brought a friend with him.
有一天，他带来了一位朋友。
She and Collin hit it off and eventually got married.
她和科林一拍即合，最终结婚了。
By 1993, Collin had been in prison for over a dozen years, and he and Carl took stock.
到 1993 年，科林已经在监狱里呆了十几年了，他和卡尔进行了盘点。
All their appeals had failed.
他们的所有上诉都失败了。
Maybe their strategy was wrong.
也许他们的策略是错误的。
They'd focused on legal technicalities at the trial.
他们在审判中专注于法律技术细节。
Had the rules of evidence been followed properly?
证据规则是否得到适当遵守？
Was there misconduct by the prosecution?
检方是否存在不当行为？
That sort of thing.
诸如此类的事情。
Carl wanted to take a new approach.
卡尔想采取一种新方法。
He wanted to reinvestigate the crime, come up with new evidence and witnesses, do the detective work the detectives never did.
他想重新调查犯罪，拿出新的证据和证人，做侦探们从未做过的侦探工作。
At that point, money was exhausted.
到时候，钱就花完了。
And we knew that we have to try to clear Collin's name, not based on legal, technical stuff, but actually what happened on that day.
我们知道我们必须努力为科林洗清罪名，不是基于法律、技术问题，而是基于那天发生的事情。
We were going to try to see how we can go about proving his innocence.
我们打算尝试看看如何证明他的清白。
But how do you go about investigating a crime over a decade after it's been committed?
但是，在犯罪发生十多年后，如何着手调查呢？
Carl had no experience.
卡尔没有经验。
Up till then, he'd done a little construction, drove a cab.
在那之前，他做过一些建筑工作，开过出租车。
But he saw an opportunity when he bumped into his brother-in-law one day with a stack of court documents in his hands.
但有一天，当他遇到手上拿着一叠法庭文件的姐夫时，他看到了机会。
His brother-in-law was working as a process server, hand-delivering legal papers, like eviction notices and subpoenas, and filing them at court.
他的姐夫担任流程送达人，亲手递交驱逐通知和传票等法律文件，并将其提交法庭。
Carl thought a job like that would be a good way to learn how the system works and to meet attorneys who might help with the case, so he got his license to start serving papers.
卡尔认为这样的工作是了解系统如何运作并会见可能帮助处理此案的律师的好方法，因此他获得了开始送达文件的许可。
He learned how to track people down, how to order court files, and how to read legal motions.
他学会了如何追踪人员、如何订购法庭文件以及如何阅读法律动议。
He took all the legal papers back from Collin's lawyer.
他从科林的律师那里拿回了所有的法律文件。
And I started familiarizing with the reports as to the police reports, the grand jury minutes, the trial transcripts, and also the motions, the pretrial motions, started familiarizing with it.
我开始熟悉有关警察报告、大陪审团会议记录、审判笔录以及动议、审前动议的报告，开始熟悉它们。
Then my clients were attorneys.
然后我的客户是律师。
I started asking them questions, you know?
我开始问他们问题，你知道吗？
Some of the attorneys seemed sympathetic, but none were ready to jump in and help.
一些律师似乎很同情，但没有人愿意介入并提供帮助。
Then one day, Carl was standing in front of a downtown Brooklyn courthouse trying to drum up some work, handing out business cards to anyone in a suit holding a briefcase.
然后有一天，卡尔站在布鲁克林市中心的一家法院前，试图招揽一些工作，向任何穿着西装、拿着公文包的人分发名片。
And he gave one to a lawyer named William Robedee.
他把一张送给了一位名叫威廉·罗贝迪的律师。
Robedee had recently left the DA's office and was starting his own private practice, mainly housing and divorce court.
罗贝迪最近离开了地方检察官办公室，开始了自己的私人执业，主要是住房和离婚法庭。
He needed help, so a few days later he called, and Carl arranged to stop by his office.
他需要帮助，所以几天后他打电话来，卡尔安排去他的办公室。
He introduced himself to be William Robedee.
他介绍自己是威廉·罗贝迪。
And there was a lady sitting at the side of the desk, happened to be his wife.
而桌子旁边坐着一位女士，正是他的妻子。
After a while, I saw a guy walk by in a towel, so I was thinking it's strange.
过了一会儿，我看到一个穿着毛巾的人走过来，我就觉得很奇怪。
Well, that happened to be his roommate.
嗯，那恰好是他的室友。
They were sharing.
他们正在分享。
Well, at the time, the office was my apartment on 77th Street in Brooklyn.
嗯，当时，办公室是我在布鲁克林 77 街的公寓。
This is William Robedee.
这是威廉·罗贝迪。
William Robedee So I mean there was two bedrooms in the back, and then there was, like, a living room, and then the room that I used as an office, and the kitchen.
William Robedee 所以我的意思是后面有两间卧室，然后是一间客厅，然后是我用作办公室的房间和厨房。
And I'd say the first few times he came to pick up work from me-- papers that needed to be served-- we had a few conversations, and we kind of hit it off as friends fairly fast.
我想说的是，他最初几次来接我的工作——需要送达的文件——我们进行了几次交谈，我们很快就成为了朋友。
We started working together.
我们开始一起工作。
Immediately after, I was telling him, Saturday I'm going upstate to visit my friend.
紧接着，我告诉他，周六我要去北部拜访我的朋友。
And I told him the story as to how my friend is in jail for something he did not do, and he was pretty much touched.
我告诉他我的朋友如何因为他没有做的事情而入狱的故事，他非常感动。
And then the lady who always sits at his side, she came closer to hear the story.
然后那位总是坐在他身边的女士走近了听他的故事。
And we sat there for, like, about two, three hours that day when I first tell them about the story.
那天，当我第一次向他们讲述这个故事时，我们在那里坐了大约两三个小时。
So one day, he told me shortly after, why don't I bring, you know, some materials over?
所以有一天，不久之后他告诉我，我为什么不带一些材料过来呢？
He brought it over in a box.
他把它装在一个盒子里带了过来。
It was about a foot and a half-- good 18 inches thick-- of paper.
这是大约一英尺半——足有十八英寸厚——的纸。
He had the trial transcripts, police paperwork, discovery materials that would have been in possession of Collin's defense attorney at the time of the trial in 1982.
他拥有科林的辩护律师在 1982 年审判时拥有的审判笔录、警方文件和发现材料。
And myself and Shirley sat up probably till 3 o'clock in the morning that night just passing papers back and forth around the table and going through about four pots of coffee.
那天晚上，我和雪莉大概一直坐到凌晨 3 点，只是在桌子周围来回传递文件，喝了大约四壶咖啡。
And I would think before we went to bed that night, I was convinced he didn't do it.
那天晚上我们上床睡觉之前，我会想，我确信他没有这么做。
I mean, there was no murder weapon recovered.
我的意思是，没有找到凶器。
There were no forensics.
没有法医鉴定。
And the bullet had a downward trajectory in their own autopsy report from 20 years ago.
而且从20年前他们自己的尸检报告来看，这颗子弹的轨迹是向下的。
And the theory of the case was that it was a drive by shooting, which, unless you are sitting on top of a tank, it would be physically impossible for the murder to have happened the way that the witnesses testified to it at the trial.
该案的理论是，这是一次驾车射击，除非你坐在坦克顶上，否则谋杀案不可能像证人在审判中作证的那样发生。
Carl and Robedee worked out a barter arrangement.
卡尔和罗贝迪达成了一项以物易物的安排。
Carl would deliver papers in exchange for Robedee's help with Collin's case.
卡尔将提供文件以换取罗贝迪对科林案件的帮助。
It was 1999.
那是1999年。
Collin had been in jail for almost 20 years, which might seem odd considering that he had a sentence of 15 years to life.
科林已入狱近 20 年，考虑到他被判处 15 年至无期徒刑，这似乎有些奇怪。
But when you come up before the parole board, part of what they're looking for is that you accept responsibility for your crime and show remorse.
但当你出现在假释委员会面前时，他们所要求的部分内容是你愿意承担自己的罪行并表现出悔意。
But for Collin, accepting responsibility would have meant lying.
但对科林来说，接受责任就意味着撒谎。
Reading the minutes of his parole board hearing, you see the awful trap he's in.
阅读他的假释委员会听证会记录，你会发现他陷入了可怕的陷阱。
At one point in the transcript, Collin says he's innocent, but Commissioner Rafelli, who's conducting the meeting, responds like this.
在文字记录中，科林曾表示自己是无辜的，但主持会议的拉菲利专员却做出了这样的回应。
Quote, "As far as we're concerned, the parole board, you are guilty of murder.
引用：“就我们假释委员会而言，你犯有谋杀罪。
The parole board does not determine issues of guilt or innocence.
假释委员会并不决定有罪或无罪的问题。
If you want to continue to fight that issue, by all means, get yourself an attorney and appeal it.
如果您想继续解决这个问题，请务必请律师并提出上诉。
Take it to the Court of Appeals.
将其带到上诉法院。
Take it to the US Supreme Court, wherever you will.
无论您身在何处，都可以将其提交给美国最高法院。
But until a court of higher jurisdiction tells us you are innocent, as far as we're concerned, you're guilty, and that's all there is to it.
但在具有更高管辖权的法院告诉我们你是无辜的之前，就我们而言，你就是有罪的，仅此而已。
So I want you to be aware that your protestations of innocence, as far as we're concerned, fall on deaf ears." Unquote.
所以我希望你知道，就我们而言，你的无罪声明被置若罔闻。”取消引用。
After arguing his case for a couple of pages, Collin finally gives up, and he says, "Whatever I tell you, you're not going to believe me anyway." Needless to say, his parole was denied.
在争论了几页之后，科林最终放弃了，他说：“无论我告诉你什么，你都不会相信我。”不用说，他的假释被拒绝了。
And it was denied every time he went up for parole.
每次他申请假释都被拒绝。
Here's the catch.
这就是问题所在。
If he lied and said he committed the crime, he would have been released long ago.
如果他撒谎说自己犯了罪，他早就被释放了。
Coming up, getting a murderer to admit to murder and getting him to help the helpless.
即将到来，让凶手承认谋杀并让他帮助无助的人。
Our story continues in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续时，我们的故事将在芝加哥公共广播电台继续进行。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today we're spending our entire program on the story of Carl King and how he managed to right a 20-year wrong against some pretty amazing odds.
今天，我们整个节目都在讲述卡尔·金的故事，以及他如何克服一些惊人的困难，设法纠正 20 年来的错误。
Today's show was first broadcast back in 2005.
今天的节目于 2005 年首次播出。
Again, here's reporter Anya Bourg.
记者安雅·布尔格再次报道。
Carl King and attorney William Robedee took to meeting regularly.
卡尔·金和律师威廉·罗贝迪定期会面。
They'd gather in Robedee's apartment and discuss strategy.
他们会聚集在罗贝迪的公寓里讨论策略。
They both agreed they had to go back and uncover what actually happened on the day of the murder, so they poured over the police notes and paperwork from the trial.
他们都同意必须回去查明谋杀当天到底发生了什么，所以他们翻阅了警方的记录和审判的文件。
There were names that kept coming up-- Mario, the victim, his brother, Martell, the real shooter, Norman, and the main eyewitness, Thomas Charlemagne.
一些名字不断出现——受害者马里奥、他的兄弟马泰尔、真正的枪手诺曼和主要目击者托马斯查理曼。
They thought this group was a good place to start.
他们认为这个小组是一个很好的起点。
Here's Robedee.
这是罗贝迪。
I knew that they knew something.
我知道他们知道一些事情。
I mean, you know, there's Mario, Martell, Norman, Carlton, and all these guys were kind of bonded together in the way that kind of only teenage boys end up bonded together.
我的意思是，你知道，有马里奥、马爹利、诺曼、卡尔顿，所有这些人都以一种只有十几岁的男孩最终团结在一起的方式联系在一起。
I mean, the whole story just had that kind of flavor to it where you just knew that if there was a truth to this thing, then one of these kids knew it.
我的意思是，整个故事有一种味道，你知道如果这件事是真的，那么其中一个孩子就知道。
So they decided to start with the most obvious suspect, the real shooter, Norman Simmonds, the guy Collin had been tried and convicted with.
因此，他们决定从最明显的嫌疑人、真正的枪手诺曼·西蒙兹开始，科林曾与他一起受审并被定罪。
In a weird twist, because he was a minor and a model inmate, he'd only served nine years in prison, and he proved surprisingly easy for Robedee to track down.
奇怪的是，由于他是一名未成年人，也是一名模范囚犯，他只在监狱服刑九年，而事实证明，罗贝迪很容易找到他。
To be honest with you, I took a stab in the dark that an address that we found on the internet was him and sent him a letter.
说实话，我在网上找到的一个地址是他，我在黑暗中摸索了一下，给他发了一封信。
Believe it or not, that worked.
不管你信不信，这确实有效。
He called.
他打电话来。
They arranged for Norman come over the next day to give a deposition.
他们安排诺曼第二天过来作证。
So the following afternoon, they were there waiting-- a court reporter at the kitchen table, Robedee's wife, Shirley, lying in the living room floor arranging the papers, and Robedee, preparing the questions.
于是第二天下午，他们在那里等着——一名法庭记者坐在厨房的桌子旁，罗贝迪的妻子雪莉躺在客厅地板上整理文件，罗贝迪则准备问题。
We had an appointment for him at 3 o'clock.
我们约了他下午三点。
The doorbell rang at 2:00.
2:00 门铃响了。
And I looked outside, and it was, at that time, a brand new S550 Mercedes sedan double parked in front of my house.
我往外一看，当时，一辆全新的S550奔驰轿车停在我家门前。
And I said, I think that might be Norman.
我说，我想那可能是诺曼。
And he was coming up around the stairs, shouting up something to the effect of, yo, where's the lawyer?
他绕着楼梯走上来，大声喊叫，大意是，哟，律师在哪儿？
He was, like, you know, dressed like kind of, you know, a pop star.
他，你知道，穿得像个流行歌星。
Shirley Robedee.
雪莉·罗贝迪。
Shirley Robedee You know, the Versace suit and laid out and perfect hair and, you know, with the hand inside the jacket pocket.
雪莉·罗贝迪 (Shirley Robedee) 你知道，范思哲 (Versace) 西装，整齐的头发，完美的头发，你知道，手插在夹克口袋里。
Yeah I believe, you know-- and I kind of saw enough close enough evidence of that every time he's moved his jacket-- that he was sitting in my living room well armed.
是的，我相信，你知道——每次他移动夹克时我都看到足够近距离的证据——他全副武装地坐在我的客厅里。
So Robedee, his wife, Shirley, and a now slightly freaked out court reporter all sat down and listened as Norman Simmonds walked them through what happened on the day of Mario's shooting.
于是，罗贝迪、他的妻子雪莉，以及一名现在有点惊慌失措的法庭记者都坐下来，听诺曼·西蒙兹向他们讲述马里奥枪击当天发生的事情。
Since you can't be tried for the same crime twice, he told them the story candidly-- at times, too candidly.
由于同一罪行不能受到两次审判，因此他坦率地告诉了他们这个故事——有时，太坦率了。
He actually demonstrated on me, physically.
他实际上向我展示了身体。
He asked me to stand up and play Mario Hamilton while he came up behind me with his finger and his thumb and showed me exactly how he shot him.
他让我站起来扮演马里奥·汉密尔顿，而他则用手指和拇指走到我身后，向我展示了他是如何射杀他的。
Norman basically used me as his demonstration dummy and where he put his finger on my neck is exactly where that bullet went in on that autopsy report, which was utterly consistent, as opposed to the story that was told at the trial, which was utterly inconsistent.
诺曼基本上用我作为他的演示假人，他把手指放在我脖子上的地方正是尸检报告中子弹进入的地方，这是完全一致的，而不是审判中讲述的故事，这是完全不一致的。
What Norman had given us was the actual story of how the murder actually happened.
诺曼给我们的是谋杀案实际发生的真实故事。
He stated to us that, to make a long story short, that himself and a person named Mossep-- who we later learned was named Dayton Morgan-- were walking basically behind Erasmus Hall High School, which is on Flatbush Avenue.
他对我们说，长话短说，他自己和一个名叫莫塞普的人——我们后来得知他的名字叫代顿摩根——基本上走在伊拉斯谟霍尔高中后面，该高中位于弗拉特布什大道。
And they spotted Mario Hamilton, and they walked up behind Mario Hamilton.
他们发现了马里奥·汉密尔顿，他们走到马里奥·汉密尔顿身后。
Norman took a pistol from his waistband and basically almost at kind of a point blank range, shot Mario through the top of his neck.
诺曼从腰带上掏出一把手枪，几乎是在近距离，射穿了马里奥的脖子。
That sequence of events, we had never actually heard before.
这一系列的事件，我们以前从未真正听说过。
There was no car.
没有车。
There was no driver.
没有司机。
And most importantly, there was no Collin Warner.
最重要的是，没有科林·华纳。
Norman said he'd killed Mario in revenge for the death of a friend the week before, just like the neighborhood kids told the cops at the time.
诺曼说，他杀了马里奥是为了为一周前死去的朋友报仇，就像邻居的孩子当时告诉警察的那样。
By the end of the deposition, Robedee had only one question left.
证词结束时，罗贝迪只剩下一个问题了。
So after we had stopped, I said to him again, you know, why, why did you let this happen?
所以当我们停下来后，我再次对他说，你知道，为什么，为什么你让这种事发生？
Why did it go on so long?
为什么持续这么久？
And his answer to that question began with, I was only 15.
他对这个问题的回答是这样开始的：我只有 15 岁。
And he got very, very emotional.
他变得非常非常情绪化。
He was physically crying.
他的身体在哭泣。
The only way I can explain it, it was like a dam bursting with Norman.
我唯一能解释的就是，这就像诺曼决堤的大坝。
It all just kind of rushed out of him.
这一切都像是从他身上冲了出来。
I believe I hugged him.
我相信我拥抱了他。
The most important thing Carl and Robedee got from Norman wasn't his confession.
卡尔和罗贝迪从诺曼那里得到的最重要的东西并不是他的坦白。
That alone isn't enough to vacate a conviction.
仅凭这一点还不足以撤销定罪。
What Norman gave them was the names of all the people who'd seen him commit the crime, real eyewitnesses, people who were within feet when he fired the gun, but who'd never testified in court.
诺曼给他们的是所有目睹他犯罪的人的名字，真正的目击者，当他开枪时就在脚下但从未在法庭上作证的人。
There were two of them.
他们有两个人。
Now Carl had to find them, to be a detective.
现在卡尔必须找到他们，成为一名侦探。
One of the eyewitnesses had gone into the Marines, and Carl tracked him down through a guy in the neighborhood.
其中一名目击者加入了海军陆战队，卡尔通过附近的一个人找到了他。
The other was Dayton Morgan, also known as Mossep.
另一个是代顿摩根，也被称为莫塞普。
He wasn't as easy to locate.
他没那么容易找到。
Carl started with a process server trick.
Carl 从进程服务器技巧开始。
He ran a DMV search and found an address Mossep had given the court when he appeared for a traffic violation.
他对车管所进行了搜索，找到了莫塞普因交通违规出庭时向法庭提供的地址。
The only problem was when Carl went up to the Bronx neighborhood to find the address, it didn't exist.
唯一的问题是，当卡尔去布朗克斯附近寻找该地址时，它并不存在。
The street sense came in there.
街头感就在其中。
I thought, if I gave you an address, and I said to you, I live at 915, and there's no 915 on this block, that means that I know this block that well to give you a wrong, you know, number.
我想，如果我给了你一个地址，然后我对你说，我住在 915，而这个街区没有 915，那就意味着我很了解这个街区，所以不会给你一个错误的号码。
I knew at that time he had to know that block.
我当时就知道他一定知道那个街区。
Carl started casing the neighborhood.
卡尔开始对附近地区进行勘察。
He talked to people at the deli, the guy selling odds and ends in the street, neighborhood folks.
他和熟食店里的人、街上卖零碎东西的人、邻居们交谈。
He tried not to look out of place, but sometimes he took it a little far.
他尽量不显得不合时宜，但有时他做得有点过分。
One day I was dressed up in a mechanic's suit.
有一天，我穿上了一套机械师套装。
Wait.
等待。
Wait.
等待。
Wait.
等待。
You're going up there and hanging around the neighborhood, figuring out where he is.
你要去那里，在附近闲逛，弄清楚他在哪里。
Are you going in a costume?
你要穿戏服去吗？
Well, a mechanic's suit because I can't really look like I'm just laying around in a strange neighborhood, so I mean people won't really look at you that direct if, you know, you're a tradesman or worker.
好吧，一套机械师套装，因为我不能看起来真的像我只是躺在一个陌生的社区里，所以我的意思是，如果你知道，你是一名商人或工人，人们不会那么直接地看着你。
So I had on this mechanic's suit, and my boots are all dirty.
所以我穿上了机械师的套装，而我的靴子全脏了。
So I was, like, parked, like, two cars away.
所以我就停在两辆车远的地方。
So I saw him coming across the street to approach the building, and I just wanted to verify the apartment and if he's staying in that building.
所以我看到他穿过街道走向大楼，我只是想核实一下公寓以及他是否住在那栋大楼里。
So he's going to open the door-- open it like that-- so I just slide in.
所以他要打开门——就像那样打开——所以我就滑进去。
So I'm walking, like, ahead of him, and he's walking behind.
所以我走在他前面，他走在后面。
And I'm whistling.
我吹口哨。
So I'm walking up the steps.
所以我正走上台阶。
So it's four floors in that building.
那栋楼有四层。
So I'm saying, I hope it's not the last floor that he's going to because I don't know who I'll be knocking because I want to see the apartment he's actually staying in.
所以我说，我希望这不是他要去的最后一层，因为我不知道我会敲谁，因为我想看看他实际住的公寓。
Fortunately, I heard the keys jingling on the third floor, so then I went up to the fourth floor, stood there for a minute, make sure he's inside, and I came back down, come out the building.
幸运的是，我听到三楼的钥匙叮当响，所以我上了四楼，在那里站了一分钟，确定他在里面，然后我又下来，走出大楼。
Carl says in an investigation, there are all sorts of advantages that someone from the neighborhood has that an outsider doesn't.
卡尔在一项调查中表示，附近的人拥有外人所没有的各种优势。
This seemed especially true in the case of Taheem Allen, one of the teenagers who'd lied to the police and the grand jury in the original investigation.
在塔希姆·艾伦的案件中尤其如此，他是在最初的调查中向警方和大陪审团撒谎的青少年之一。
Taheem was kind of a street character, not the type who'd open up to just anyone, and also a guy somebody official would have a hard time finding.
塔希姆是一个街头人物，不是那种对任何人都敞开心扉的人，也是一个官方很难找到的人。
But here, Norman Simmonds was a help.
但在这里，诺曼·西蒙兹帮了忙。
After he gave his tearful deposition to Carl and Robedee admitting he was the lone murderer, he told them he knew Taheem, knew where he hung out.
在他含泪向卡尔和罗贝迪作证，承认自己是唯一的凶手后，他告诉他们他认识塔希姆，知道他经常去哪里。
So Carl got in Norman's Mercedes S550, the one with the tinted windows, and drove with him to see Taheem at a restaurant in a really tough Brooklyn neighborhood.
于是卡尔开上了诺曼的奔驰 S550，那辆带有有色车窗的奔驰，和他一起开车去布鲁克林一个非常艰苦的街区的一家餐馆见塔希姆。
When they walked in, it was dark, but Norman pointed Taheem out in the corner.
当他们走进去时，天已经黑了，但诺曼指着角落里的塔希姆。
Carl introduced himself, and it didn't take much more than that.
卡尔做了自我介绍，没有做太多的事情。
The guy was eating some food, actually.
事实上，那家伙正在吃东西。
And when he heard the name Collin Warner, he just actually rest down his food and tears came to his eyes.
当他听到科林·华纳（Collin Warner）这个名字时，他实际上只是放下食物，泪水夺眶而出。
And then he said it's always, like, bothered him where, you know, he thinks he's going to get a nervous breakdown, you know, because he kept thinking about whatever happened to this guy.
然后他说这总是让他困扰，你知道，他认为他会精神崩溃，因为他一直在想这个人发生了什么事。
And he said, listen, is there any way I can help you, because I was part of sending an innocent man to jail.
他说，听着，我有什么办法可以帮助你，因为我参与了将一名无辜者送进监狱的工作。
By this time, Carl was spending every spare moment working on Collin's case-- between 50 to 100 hours a week, he says.
此时，卡尔把所有空闲时间都花在处理科林的案子上——他说，每周工作 50 到 100 个小时。
It was coming between him and his friends and family.
这是他和他的朋友和家人之间的事情。
It's one of the reasons he and his girlfriend, the mother of his kids, split up.
这是他和他的女朋友、孩子的母亲分手的原因之一。
By 1999, he and Robedee were making progress with the case, but there were still some problems.
到了1999年，他和Robedee的案件取得了进展，但仍然存在一些问题。
The key eyewitness, Thomas Charlemagne, the 15-year-old who first chose the photo of Collin at random, had been killed in Haiti years before.
关键目击者托马斯·查理曼（Thomas Charlemagne）是第一个随机选择科林照片的 15 岁少年，他多年前在海地被杀。
And Carl and Robedee knew the witnesses they had weren't enough to convince a judge.
卡尔和罗贝迪知道他们拥有的证人不足以说服法官。
Norman was protected by double jeopardy, and Taheem had perjured himself before, so why wouldn't he do it again?
诺曼受到双重危险的保护，而塔希姆以前也曾作过伪证，那么他为什么不再这样做呢？
Carl and Robedee knew that to really make their case, they needed someone from the victim's family, someone who'd have no reason to help Collin get out of prison.
卡尔和罗贝迪知道，要真正证明他们的案子，他们需要受害者家属中的一个人，一个没有理由帮助科林出狱的人。
And it's at this point that a rather surprising person reappears in the story.
就在这时，一个相当令人惊讶的人再次出现在故事中。
Martell Hamilton, the brother of the kid who died, the one who ran to the scene of the crime and saw his brother bleeding on the sidewalk.
马泰尔·汉密尔顿，死者的兄弟，他跑到犯罪现场，看到他的兄弟在人行道上流血。
Martell, remember, had been there when Thomas first identified Collin from the mug book, and he'd IDed Collin himself.
请记住，当托马斯第一次从马克杯簿中认出科林时，马泰尔就在场，而且他本人也认出了科林。
Taheem knew where he lived, so they mailed a letter.
塔希姆知道他住在哪里，所以他们寄了一封信。
It was a hard letter for Martell to read.
这对马泰尔来说是一封很难读的信。
He'd spent 20 years trying to put the murder out of his mind.
他花了20年的时间试图将这起谋杀案从脑海中抹去。
The last thing he wanted to do was get back into it with some lawyer he didn't know.
他最不想做的就是和一个他不认识的律师重新讨论这件事。
He tried to ignore it, but he found he couldn't.
他试图忽略它，但他发现他做不到。
So a week later, he came up with a solution of sorts.
所以一周后，他想出了一个解决方案。
It was more or less a cop out.
这或多或少是一种逃避。
I tried to call the attorney Robedee's office.
我试图给罗贝迪律师的办公室打电话。
I thought it was an actual office, like most attorneys would have, and I said, I'm going to call him late so he can't say I didn't return the call.
我以为那是一个真正的办公室，就像大多数律师一样，我说，我要晚点给他打电话，这样他就不能说我没有回电话。
So I figured I would get an answering machine, and then I said, OK, I did my part.
所以我想我应该买一台答录机，然后我说，好吧，我尽了自己的职责。
Now I'm done with it.
现在我已经完成了。
But came to my surprise, the answering machine came on, and I said, hello, my name is Martell Hamilton.
但出乎我意料的是，答录机打开了，我说，你好，我叫马爹利·汉密尔顿。
I am the brother of Mario Hamilton, and I received this letter.
我是马里奥·汉密尔顿的兄弟，我收到了这封信。
I'm just only returning your call.
我只是回你的电话而已。
Good bye.
再见。
And then I heard something said, don't hang up!
然后我听到有人说，别挂断电话！
Don't hang up!
别挂断！
Don't hang up!
别挂断！
And then he said, Mr. Hamilton, you don't know how much this means to me that you called me, you know?
然后他说，汉密尔顿先生，你不知道你给我打电话对我来说意味着什么，你知道吗？
And I would like for you to come down and just look at some of the documents and the evidence that we have to show that there's absolutely no way your brother could been killed by my client.
我想让你下来看看一些文件和证据，我们必须证明你的兄弟绝对不可能被我的委托人杀害。
I represent Collin Warner.
我代表科林·华纳。
And boy, that was-- that just drew me right back to 1980, April 10 of 1980.
天哪，那件事让我回到了 1980 年，1980 年 4 月 10 日。
And it just felt like somebody just, you know, like stuck a knife in my stomach.
感觉就像有人，你知道，就像把刀插在我的肚子上。
And I keep remembering those who said, you know, this guy had nothing to do with it.
我一直记得那些人说，你知道，这家伙与这件事无关。
Martell's family was against him talking to Robedee.
马爹利的家人反对他与罗贝迪交谈。
They didn't see any reason to get involved.
他们认为没有任何理由参与其中。
They didn't want to dredge up the past.
他们不想挖掘过去。
But Martell hadn't admitted to them his doubts about Collin's guilt, how his friends always told him that Collin had nothing to do with it.
但马泰尔并没有向他们承认他对科林有罪的怀疑，他的朋友总是告诉他科林与这件事无关。
Keep in mind, Martell's brother had been his hero.
请记住，马爹利的兄弟是他的英雄。
They were incredibly close.
他们非常亲密。
They'd shared a room.
他们共用一个房间。
And he'd seen him bleed to death in front of his eyes.
而且他亲眼目睹了他在自己眼前流血而死。
Even today, he carries Mario's picture in his wallet.
即使在今天，他的钱包里还带着马里奥的照片。
So after a couple of days, he went over and looked at all the evidence Carl and Robedee had gathered.
所以几天后，他走过去查看了卡尔和罗贝迪收集到的所有证据。
By the end, he was convinced enough to give a deposition, to tell them about how Detective Wasser bullied him into saying he'd seen Collin around the neighborhood.
最后，他被说服了，做出了一份证词，告诉他们瓦塞尔警探如何胁迫他说他在附近见过科林。
But it was really rough.
但这确实很艰难。
Several times they had to tell the court reporter to stop typing so Martell could take a break, get a tissue.
有好几次，他们不得不告诉法庭记者停止打字，这样马爹利就可以休息一下，拿纸巾。
It took hours to get through.
花了好几个小时才通过。
Why did you feel compelled to speak out for Collin, on Collin's behalf?
为什么你觉得有必要代表科林为科林说话？
I just-- I just couldn't let it rest.
我只是——我就是不能让它休息。
And I was trying to let it rest, but that-- because that doubt, you know, I have to do this.
我试图让它休息，但是因为那个怀疑，你知道，我必须这样做。
I have to do this.
我必须这样做。
Plus for years, I searched for some type of relief from this because if you think I'm emotional now, before 2000, I couldn't mention anything about it.
另外，多年来，我一直在寻找某种缓解方式，因为如果你认为我现在很情绪化，在 2000 年之前，我对此无话可说。
I didn't walk close to Lott Street where he was killed.
我没有走近他被杀的洛特街。
I couldn't see blood without panicking.
看到血我就惊慌失措。
And I'm pretty sure that's what it was.
我很确定事情就是这样。
It was my doubts within the case.
这是我对案件的疑虑。
Martell says he was amazed to learn that Collin didn't hate him.
马泰尔说，当他得知科林并不恨他时，他感到很惊讶。
Everyone was just grateful that he came in.
大家都很庆幸他能进来。
And after his deposition, Martell offered to help in any way he could and basically joined what by this point was a small and unlikely team of investigators-- Collin, the inmate, Carl, the process server, Robedee, the housing lawyer working out of his apartment, Taheem, occupation unknown, and now Martell.
在作证后，马泰尔提出尽其所能提供帮助，并基本上加入了一个小而不太可能的调查小组——囚犯科林、流程服务员卡尔、在他公寓工作的住房律师罗贝迪、职业不明的塔希姆，现在是马泰尔。
What's particularly unusual is that 20 years before, they'd been on the opposite sides of the courtroom.
特别不寻常的是，20 年前，他们一直站在法庭的对立面。
Carl was on the side of the accused, and Martell on the side of the victim.
卡尔站在被告一边，马泰尔站在受害者一边。
It's Martell who finally got Mossep, an eyewitness, to tell the story of what he saw.
马泰尔最终让目击者莫塞普讲述了他所看到的故事。
Martell drove with Carl up to the Bronx to the apartment building Carl had been staking out in his mechanic's uniform.
马泰尔带着卡尔开车前往布朗克斯，来到卡尔穿着机械师制服监视的公寓楼。
Mossep walked past.
莫塞普走了过去。
Martell followed him inside.
马泰尔跟着他走了进去。
Then he turned around.
然后他转过身来。
And I said, Mossep?
我说，莫塞普？
And he turned around and said, who are you?
然后他转过身来，说，你是谁？
And I said-- I said, Mossep, do you not remember me?
我说——我说，莫塞普，你不记得我了吗？
He said, no. I said, Mossep, look upon real good.
他说，不。我说，莫塞普，看起来真不错。
Remember me.
记住账号。
He said, brethren, tell me who you is, man.
他说，弟兄们，告诉我你是谁，伙计。
Tell me who you is, man.
告诉我你是谁，伙计。
Do you not remember Mario?
你不记得马里奥了吗？
Do you remember Mario?
你还记得马里奥吗？
So, cannot forget Mario, man.
所以，不能忘记马里奥，伙计。
Mario my brethren.
马里奥我的兄弟们。
Mario the first [SPEAKING JAMAICAN PATOIS] when I come to New York and the first man to get killed in front of me.
马里奥是我来到纽约时第一个[说牙买加方言]的人，也是第一个在我面前被杀的人。
He said, how could I not remember Mario?
他说，我怎么会不记得马里奥呢？
Mario was the first friend I had when I came to New York.
马里奥是我来到纽约后第一个朋友。
And he's the first friend I ever had to be killed in front of me.
他是我第一个不得不在我面前被杀的朋友。
Throughout that conversation, you know, I really couldn't look at him.
在整个谈话过程中，你知道，我真的不敢看他。
You know, it just felt like someone just socked me right in the stomach, and then I literally bowled over because my stomach was hurting and cringed so bad, you know?
你知道，感觉就像有人狠狠地打了我的胃，然后我真的摔倒了，因为我的胃很痛，而且非常难受，你知道吗？
So then I asked him, so why couldn't you do something, you know?
然后我问他，那你为什么不能做点什么，你知道吗？
He said, brethren, how you expect me to do something?
他说，弟兄们，你们期望我做什么事呢？
I live amongst them.
我住在他们中间。
You know, they was sending threatening notes.
你知道，他们正在发送威胁信息。
They threw bottles through my window.
他们把瓶子扔进我的窗户。
And you got to remember, Johnny, you know, now we're big.
你必须记住，约翰尼，你知道，现在我们已经很大了。
Now we're men.
现在我们是男人了。
Well, we weren't men.
好吧，我们本来就不是男人。
We thought we were men, but we were still kids.
我们以为自己是男人，但其实我们还是孩子。
By January of 2001, three years after starting their reinvestigation, Carl and Robedee were ready to go back to court.
2001 年 1 月，即开始重新调查三年后，卡尔和罗贝迪准备重返法庭。
They had tracked down and interviewed two eyewitnesses who hadn't testified at trial, two other witnesses who recanted their trial testimony.
他们找到并采访了两名未在审判中作证的目击证人，另外两名证人撤回了审判证词。
They'd gotten a confession from the real killer and sworn affidavits from three alibis.
他们得到了真正凶手的供述和三份不在场证明的宣誓证词。
They gathered the new depositions and all the paperwork together in a brief so big the court clerks laughed when Carl brought it in.
他们将新的证词和所有文件收集在一起，写成一份大的案情摘要，当卡尔把它拿进来时，法庭书记员笑了。
Robedee gathered everyone in his office/apartment and told them not to expect anything to happen for a while.
罗贝迪将所有人聚集到他的办公室/公寓，并告诉他们暂时不要期待发生任何事情。
It would take months to get a response from the court.
需要几个月的时间才能得到法院的答复。
But just four days later, Robedee's phone rang.
但仅仅四天后，罗贝迪的电话就响了。
It was Judge Leventhal from the state Supreme Court asking him to come in immediately for a conference.
州最高法院的莱文撒尔法官要求他立即参加会议。
A couple of minutes later, Barry Schreiber, the assistant district attorney, called to ask the same thing.
几分钟后，助理地区检察官巴里·施赖伯 (Barry Schreiber) 打电话询问同样的事情。
And so I got to court about 4 o'clock in the afternoon, and Justice Leventhal called us up to the bench and Barry Schreiber was there.
下午 4 点左右我就到了法庭，Leventhal 法官把我们叫到了法官席上，Barry Schreiber 也在场。
And he said, look, judge, we're not going to oppose the motion.
他说，看，法官，我们不会反对这项动议。
As far as we're concerned, he didn't do it.
就我们而言，他没有这样做。
I mean, I had no idea.
我的意思是，我不知道。
I certainly wasn't prepared to win four days after I filed the motion.
在我提出动议四天后，我当然不准备获胜。
So I said-- so the judge looked at me and said, do you have an order prepared?
所以我说——所以法官看着我说，你准备好命令了吗？
No, judge.
不，法官。
I'm not even sure what one's supposed to look like.
我什至不确定一个人应该是什么样子。
He's like, well, write one, you know?
他说，好吧，写一篇，你知道吗？
The next day Carl, Collin's wife, Robedee, and Shirley drove up to the prison and watched Collin emerge a free man.
第二天，卡尔、科林的妻子罗贝迪和雪莉开车来到监狱，看着科林重获自由。
They took me to the gate.
他们把我带到了门口。
Everybody was like at each window, yo, Collin!
每个人都像在每个窗口一样，哟，科林！
Yo, good luck!
哟，祝你好运！
That feeling was so incredible, Anya.
那种感觉太不可思议了，安雅。
It was incredible because my wife always tells me that she had a dream, and she dreamed that she was with me at the prison gates.
这太不可思议了，因为我的妻子总是告诉我她做了一个梦，她梦见她和我一起在监狱门口。
And I told her, well, that dream is not going to come true.
我告诉她，好吧，这个梦想不会实现。
There she is, waiting at the prison gates for me.
她就在那里，在监狱门口等我。
After 21 years, of course, it's not over when you walk out of the prison gates.
当然，21年后，当你走出监狱大门时，一切还没有结束。
It took Collin almost a year to leave the house alone.
科林花了将近一年的时间才独自离开这所房子。
He says he still feels more comfortable in small places with the door locked behind him.
他说，在门锁在身后的小地方，他仍然感觉更舒服。
To this day, all his dreams still take place in prison, and if not, they end up there.
直到今天，他所有的梦想仍然在监狱里实现，如果没有，它们也会在那里结束。
While he was locked up, his father died.
在他被关押期间，他的父亲去世了。
His sister got married.
他的姐姐结婚了。
Everyone had kids.
每个人都有孩子。
He says he feels like he was born in prison.
他说他感觉自己就像是在监狱里出生的。
He literally has no memory of his life before.
他确实对自己之前的生活没有任何记忆。
And he says that in prison, when he imagined life outside, everything was clean and beautiful, and it was a little startling to discover that the outside world can be pretty grimy.
他说，在监狱里，当他想象外面的生活时，一切都是干净而美丽的，但当他发现外面的世界可能非常肮脏时，他有点吃惊。
He spent a lot of time trying to understand why did this happen to him?
他花了很多时间试图理解为什么这种事会发生在他身上？
Why did the universe choose him to suffer so arbitrarily?
为什么宇宙偏偏偏偏选择了他来承受这样的痛苦？
He still hasn't figured it out.
他还没想明白。
Two days after Collin's release, his family planned a party for him.
科林获释两天后，他的家人为他计划了一场聚会。
There was music, tables full of food, a lot of people Collin hadn't seen for over 20 years, and one person he'd never met, Martell Hamilton, whose brother's murder started this whole story and who told the cops what they wanted to hear and helped them build their case against Collin.
音乐响起，桌子上摆满了食物，有很多科林 20 多年没见过的人，还有一个他从未见过的人，马泰尔·汉密尔顿，他兄弟的谋杀案引发了整个故事，他告诉了警察他们想听的事情，并帮助他们对科林立案。
When Martell walked in, a hush came over the room.
当马泰尔走进来时，房间里一片寂静。
Here's William Robedee.
请听威廉·罗贝迪的报道。
Collin was still within this religious period of purification where he was wearing white every day.
科林还处于宗教净化时期，每天都穿着白色的衣服。
So he had these big dreadlocks down and the white garment, the beard, a little moustache.
所以他留着大辫子，穿着白衣服，留着胡子，还有小胡子。
I mean, looking everything in the world like Jesus off a stained glass window.
我的意思是，像耶稣一样从彩色玻璃窗上看世界上的一切。
And Martell literally broke down and started crying, and Collin went over to him and put his arm around him, and Collin was the one comforting him.
马泰尔真的崩溃了，开始哭泣，科林走到他身边，用手臂搂住他，科林是安慰他的人。
Collin hugged me.
科林拥抱了我。
And I hugged him back, and some tears-- some tears fell.
我回抱住他，泪水流了下来。
And he said, brethren, oh, it feels so good seeing you.
他说，弟兄们，哦，见到你们感觉真好。
I hugged Martell because in the end, he did came forward and tried to rectify what he knew was wrong.
我拥抱了马爹利，因为最后他确实挺身而出并试图纠正他所知道的错误。
Even though before his release we never spoke to each other, we somewhat had like a connection.
尽管在他获释之前我们从未说过话，但我们之间还是有某种联系。
And he said, I want to tell you, you know, I didn't know-- I didn't know your brother, but I knew him spiritually afterwards.
他说，我想告诉你，你知道，我不知道——我不认识你的兄弟，但后来我在精神上认识了他。
He said, there was many nights in bed I said, I don't know why am I here and what did I do?
他说，有很多个夜晚躺在床上，我说，我不知道我为什么在这里，我做了什么？
But I used to pray to Mario and hope Mario was at peace.
但我曾经向马里奥祈祷，希望马里奥平安。
It was something I had never seen before other than, you know, certainly not in my real life with real people with real situations.
这是我以前从未见过的东西，除了在我的现实生活中与真实的人、真实的情况之外。
It's something you hear about in books about saints doing it or something, that Collin was able to do what he did and that Martell actually had the courage to walk in there and ask him for the forgiveness.
这是你在书籍中听到的关于圣人这样做的事情，科林能够做到他所做的事情，而马泰尔实际上有勇气走进那里并请求他的宽恕。
Carl King likes to tell you and anyone who'll listen that individuals can make a difference, that justice is the only thing worth fighting for, that the little man can fight the system and win.
卡尔·金喜欢告诉你和任何愿意倾听的人，个人可以有所作为，正义是唯一值得为之奋斗的事情，小人物可以对抗体制并取得胜利。
And in this case, he was right.
在这种情况下，他是对的。
It just took a long time.
只是花了很长时间。
There was a lot to fix.
有很多事情需要解决。
The police, for whatever reason, ignored the witnesses who said Collin had nothing to do with the murder and rushed to make the arrest stick.
不管出于什么原因，警方无视目击者所说的科林与谋杀案无关，并急于实施逮捕。
The DA looked past the contradictions in Thomas Charlemagne's testimony and proposed a theory of the murder that didn't match the forensic evidence.
地方检察官审视了托马斯·查理曼证词中的矛盾，并提出了与法医证据不符的谋杀理论。
Maybe everyone was overburdened.
也许每个人都负担过重。
Maybe they just didn't care.
也许他们只是不在乎。
There's nothing unusual about cases with so little evidence, says William Robedee.
威廉·罗贝迪说，证据如此之少的案件并没有什么不寻常的。
It's not that uncommon that you won't have a murder weapon.
你没有凶器的情况并不少见。
It's not that uncommon that there will be no forensic evidence.
没有法医证据的情况并不少见。
It's not that uncommon that the only witness you'll have will be a career crackhead.
唯一的证人是职业瘾君子，这种情况并不少见。
People watch CSI, for example, and they think that's what goes on every time there's a murder, that these amazing teams of scientists swoop down out of everywhere and spend every possible hour and expend every possible dollar to make sure they have the right guy.
例如，人们观看《犯罪现场调查》，他们认为每次发生谋杀案时都会发生这样的事情，这些令人惊叹的科学家团队从四面八方猛扑过来，花费每一个小时、花费每一块钱来确保他们找到了合适的人。
That doesn't happen.
那不会发生。
And it should.
它应该。
You can't have a situation where an assistant district attorney has 80 or 90 felony prosecutions to be responsible for at any given moment because they will not have the time to spend on doing their job right.
助理地方检察官在任何特定时刻都不能负责 80 或 90 项重罪起诉，因为他们没有时间花在做好自己的工作上。
The same thing could be said for a homicide detective.
对于凶杀案侦探来说也是如此。
I mean, the last comment I'll make about this is that if Collin Warner had lived in Texas or Florida or Louisiana, he would have been dead a long time ago.
我的意思是，我对此的最后评论是，如果科林·华纳住在德克萨斯州、佛罗里达州或路易斯安那州，他早就死了。
And that would have been the end of it.
事情就这样结束了。
So why did it take an amateur detective, a murderer, a housing lawyer working out of his apartment, and a bunch of grown-up kids from the old neighborhood to see that justice was done?
那么，为什么需要一名业余侦探、一名杀人犯、一名在公寓工作的住房律师，以及一群来自旧社区的成年孩子才能看到正义得到伸张呢？
In the end, perhaps the one thing Carl was willing to invest that police and lawyers and the overburdened criminal justice system weren't was time.
最后，也许卡尔愿意投入而警察和律师以及负担过重的刑事司法系统却不愿意投入的一件事就是时间。
Nobody wants to see an innocent man in prison, but only Carl King was willing to spend 21 years to get him out.
没有人愿意看到一个无辜的人入狱，但只有卡尔·金愿意花21年的时间把他救出来。
Anya Bourg, she's a producer at Frontline.
Anya Bourg，她是 Frontline 的制片人。
Collin now lives in Georgia with his wife and daughter.
科林现在与妻子和女儿住在佐治亚州。
Carl's still in New York still working cases to exonerate the falsely imprisoned.
卡尔仍在纽约处理案件，为被错误监禁的人开脱罪责。
A film was just released about their story.
关于他们的故事的电影刚刚上映。
It's called Crown Heights, directed by Matt Ruskin, starring Lakeith Stanfield and Nnamdi Asomugha.
该片名为《皇冠高地》，由马特·拉斯金执导，雷凯斯·斯坦菲尔德和纳姆迪·阿索莫加主演。
[MUSIC - SINGLE MINDED PROS]
[音乐 - 一心一意的优点]
Our program today was produced back in 2005 by Alex Blumberg and myself with Diane Cook, Wendy Dorr, Jane Marie, Sarah Koenig, and Lisa Pollak.
我们今天的节目是 2005 年由 Alex Blumberg 和我与 Diane Cook、Wendy Dorr、Jane Marie、Sarah Koenig 和 Lisa Pollak 共同制作的。
Our senior producer for this episode was Julie Snyder.
我们本集的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Production help from BA Parker.
BA Parker 提供生产帮助。
Our technical director is Matt Tierney.
我们的技术总监是马特·蒂尔尼。
The music with the bells in today's program was produced for our show by DJ Rude 1.
今天节目中的铃声音乐是 DJ Rude 1 为我们的节目制作的。
Single Minded Pros.
一心一意的专业人士。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Special thanks as always to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地特别感谢我们计划的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life.
我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。