276: Swing Set - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #276 | October 29, 2004 276: Swing Set Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 276 集 | 2004 年 10 月 29 日 276：Swing Set 注意：This American Life 是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass Perhaps this question has occurred to you at some point during the last few months.
序言 Ira Glass 也许您在过去几个月的某个时候曾想到过这个问题。
How is it possible that there are people who haven't made up their minds in this election?
这次选举怎么可能还有人拿不定主意呢？
How is it possible that someone actually hasn't formed an opinion at this point about whether or not they like George Bush?
怎么可能有人现在还没有对自己是否喜欢乔治·布什形成自己的看法呢？
Little children in the most remote villages on Earth, children who don't speak our language or know our ways, have opinions about the president.
地球上最偏远村庄的小孩子，那些不会说我们的语言或了解我们的生活方式的孩子，对总统有看法。
What more information about him could our fellow American citizens possibly need, you know?
你知道，我们的美国同胞可能还需要更多关于他的信息吗？
Well, for months, we've been looking into this question here at our radio show.
嗯，几个月来，我们一直在广播节目中研究这个问题。
And yes, there are lots of people who are undecided, because they just don't follow the news, they're too busy at their jobs, they're raising kids, they don't care.
是的，有很多人犹豫不决，因为他们只是不关注新闻，他们的工作太忙，他们正在抚养孩子，他们不在乎。
Whatever, it's not their thing.
不管怎样，这不是他们的事。
I talked to Martha [?
我和玛莎谈过[?
Brennan ?] four months after John Kerry wrapped up the Democratic nomination, but before the convention, about what she thought of him.
布伦南？] 约翰·克里 (John Kerry) 获得民主党提名四个月后，大会召开前，她谈论了她对他的看法。
I know ?] he was in the Navy.
我知道吗？]他在海军服役。
I'm pretty sure he was a senator.
我很确定他是一名参议员。
And I know he's tall and thin.
我知道他又高又瘦。
And that's about all I know.
这就是我所知道的全部。
But lots of people who are undecided do follow the news, do follow politics.
但许多犹豫不决的人确实关注新闻、关注政治。
Between 2% and 8% of likely voters are still undecided right now, depending on whose poll you look at.
目前，2% 到 8% 的可能选民尚未做出决定，具体取决于您查看的民意调查。
Millions of people, many of them apparently well-informed people who are unhappy with the president but just can't bring themselves to embrace John Kerry.
数百万人，其中许多人显然是消息灵通的人，他们对总统不满意，但就是无法接受约翰·克里。
They may decide this election.
他们可能会决定这次选举。
And so, to understand them better, we've been following a few of them for months now as they try to decide.
因此，为了更好地了解他们，我们几个月来一直在跟踪他们中的一些人，因为他们试图做出决定。
And we have a scoop.
我们有独家新闻。
We can tell you how it is they decided.
我们可以告诉你他们是如何决定的。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life, distributed by Public Radio International.
这是来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Our program today in four acts, two of them about very different undecided voters, one about somebody courting undecided voters, and one about somebody trying to sabotage undecided voters and all other voters.
我们今天的节目分为四幕，其中两幕关于截然不同的尚未做出决定的选民，一幕关于某人讨好尚未做出决定的选民，另一幕关于某人试图破坏尚未做出决定的选民和所有其他选民。
That story from Jack Hitt, and we swear it will get you yelling at your radio.
杰克·希特的故事，我们发誓它会让你对着收音机大喊大叫。
Act One.
第一幕。
James Hackett is one of those undecided voters who does follow politics.
詹姆斯·哈克特是那些关注政治的犹豫不决的选民之一。
He gets his news from NPR and the Wall Street Journal, plus the Atlantic Monthly and Newsweek .
他从 NPR 和《华尔街日报》以及《大西洋月刊》和《新闻周刊》获取新闻。
He's a doctor in Cincinnati, a diagnostic radiologist, a lifelong Republican.
他是辛辛那提的一名医生、诊断放射科医生、终身共和党人。
He's never voted for a Democrat for president, and doesn't want to vote for a Democrat for president.
他从未投票给民主党总统，也不想投票给民主党总统。
I have voted Republican every single time, mainly because I think they are more fiscally prudent.
我每次都投票给共和党，主要是因为我认为他们在财政上更加审慎。
That's the main reason.
这是主要原因。
And that's one of the reasons that I am so upset with Bush, one of many reasons.
这就是我对布什如此不满的原因之一，也是众多原因之一。
The Bush tax cut, for instance.
例如，布什的减税政策。
If the idea was to stimulate the economy, he says, rich people like him shouldn't have gotten a tax break.
他说，如果这个想法是为了刺激经济，那么像他这样的富人就不应该获得税收减免。
If he gives me more money off, it's not going to change my spending pattern at all.
即使他给我更多的钱，也根本不会改变我的消费模式。
And I think that the amount of these tax cuts, if they are continued, if they are made permanent, is going to be ruinous, is going to be a phenomenal burden for my children and my grandchildren.
我认为，如果这些减税措施继续下去，如果它们成为永久性的，那将是毁灭性的，对我的子孙后代来说将是一个巨大的负担。
And I feel betrayed in a way, and also I feel betrayed because he was promoting himself as a compassionate conservative, which I also really liked the sound of.
在某种程度上，我感到被背叛了，而且我也感到被背叛了，因为他将自己宣传为富有同情心的保守派，我也非常喜欢这种声音。
And of course, that's obviously not what we got.
当然，这显然不是我们得到的。
I mean, you want to know everything that I dislike about what Bush has done?
我的意思是，你想知道我不喜欢布什所做的一切吗？
It turns out to be a long list.
事实证明这是一个很长的清单。
He disagrees with the president about the economy, gay marriage, abortion, health care issues, stem cell research.
他在经济、同性婚姻、堕胎、医疗保健问题、干细胞研究等问题上与总统意见不同。
He's alarmed at how the president has alienated our traditional allies and eroded America's standing in the world.
他对总统如何疏远我们的传统盟友并削弱美国在世界上的地位感到震惊。
He doesn't fault the president for invading Iraq.
他并没有指责总统入侵伊拉克。
Everybody thought there were weapons of mass destruction there, he says.
他说，每个人都认为那里有大规模杀伤性武器。
So I don't fault him for that, but I do fault him for what has happened afterwards.
所以我不会因此而责怪他，但我确实会因为之后发生的事情而责怪他。
Before the war started, there were multiple think tanks that were talking about the difficulties of governing in Iraq, and he just completely ignored all of that, how you need more soldiers on the ground if you're going to do it.
战争开始之前，有多个智囊团在谈论治理伊拉克的困难，而他完全忽略了所有这些，如果你要这样做，你需要更多的士兵在地面上。
And I think that has been squandered.
我认为这已经被浪费了。
So Dr. Hackett, you sounds like a prime candidate for somebody who'd be voting for John Kerry.
哈克特博士，你听起来像是投票给约翰·克里的人的主要候选人。
What's holding you back from going to Kerry?
是什么阻碍您去凯里？
Well, there are a number of things.
嗯，有很多事情。
Just as Bush is ultra-conservative, Kerry is ultra-liberal.
正如布什是极端保守派一样，克里也是极端自由派。
I mean, I think some people would not call him ultra-liberal, but he's the most liberal man in the Senate.
我的意思是，我认为有些人不会称他为极端自由主义者，但他是参议院中最自由的人。
If the Democrats-- I don't know what the heck they were thinking of by nominating such an extreme liberal.
如果民主党——我不知道他们提名这样一个极端自由主义者到底是怎么想的。
I know a lot of guys in my position who voted for Bush, and they don't like him, they don't like the way the country's gone, the way he's going.
我知道很多处于我位置的人投票支持布什，他们不喜欢他，他们不喜欢这个国家的发展方式，不喜欢他的发展方式。
And if they would have nominated a moderate Democrat, I think this would have been a runaway election.
如果他们提名一位温和的民主党人，我认为这将是一场失控的选举。
For somebody like me, who has voted Republican all of my life, I shock myself by thinking that I long for the days of Clinton.
对于像我这样一生都投票给共和党的人来说，当我想到自己渴望克林顿的日子时，我感到震惊。
I can't believe I'm saying this.
我不敢相信我会这么说。
I would vote for Clinton in a second.
我马上就会投票给克林顿。
I would love to vote for Clinton again.
我很想再次投票给克林顿。
You can't believe you're saying this, why?
你简直不敢相信你会这么说，为什么？
Did you used to hate his guts?
你曾经恨过他的胆量吗？
I disliked him.
我不喜欢他。
I thought he was-- you know, it depends on what the definition of is is, and you know, all that stuff.
我认为他是——你知道，这取决于“是”的定义是什么，你知道，所有这些东西。
But I think what he did was great.
但我认为他所做的事情很棒。
I think what he did was very, very good for this country.
我认为他所做的事情对这个国家非常非常有好处。
And I think he actually went against a lot of the Democratic party by moving to the center.
我认为他实际上通过转向中间派来反对很多民主党人。
But that's how he did some very, very good things.
但这就是他做了一些非常非常好的事情的方式。
Yeah.
是的。
Listen to yourself.
听你自己说。
James Hackett Yeah, I know.
詹姆斯·哈克特 是的，我知道。
I would never in a million years believe I would say that.
一百万年后我永远不会相信我会这么说。
It's just, I wouldn't believe it.
只是，我不相信。
And can I just ask you, when you say that John Kerry is so liberal, I know that that's said all the time, but do you have in mind any specific things that you know that he's voted for that are too liberal for you?
我可以问你，当你说约翰·克里是如此自由派时，我知道人们一直这么说，但你是否知道他投票支持的任何具体事情对你来说太自由派了？
Well, to tell you the truth, I have not gone through his voting record.
那么，说实话，我没有翻过他的投票记录。
And I think that's something I should do.
我认为这是我应该做的事情。
I think that's a good point.
我认为这是一个很好的观点。
I think that's something I should do.
我认为这是我应该做的事情。
But I cannot-- you know, actually, that's another problem I had.
但我不能——你知道，实际上，这是我遇到的另一个问题。
I went to his website to learn more about him, and actually they didn't talk about his voting record too much on his website.
我去他的网站了解更多关于他的信息，实际上他们在他的网站上并没有过多谈论他的投票记录。
And I'm not sure where to go to get that.
我不知道去哪里得到它。
Well, listen, I think we're going to want to check back with you and just kind of see how it's going as things heat up.
好吧，听着，我想我们会想再次与您联系，看看随着事情的升温，事情进展如何。
That'd be OK.
那就可以了。
I'll probably be despairing by then.
到时候我大概就绝望了。
It's Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
James Hackett Oh, Ira, hi, how're you doing?
詹姆斯·哈克特哦，艾拉，嗨，你好吗？
It's Gig Hackett.
我是吉格·哈克特。
Gig?
演出？
James Hackett G-I-G.
詹姆斯·哈克特 G-I-G。
It's a nickname I've had forever, and it's just what I go by.
这是我一直以来的昵称，也是我一直以来的绰号。
So it's early September, it's the week after the Republican convention.
现在是九月初，共和党全国代表大会后的一周。
You know, when I last talked to you, you said that the next time that I checked in, you would probably be despairing.
你知道，当我上次和你谈话时，你说下次我入住时，你可能会感到绝望。
Yeah, and that is the case.
是的，就是这样。
That is the case.
情况就是如此。
You asked me, the last time I talked to you, to give you a call if something happened that may precipitate my movement to one side or the other.
上次我跟你说话时，你问我如果发生什么事情可能会促使我向一侧或另一侧移动，就给你打电话。
And actually, shortly after you said that, I read in Newsweek where Bush had said to this one crowd that he wouldn't do anything different about Iraq.
事实上，在你说完这句话后不久，我在《新闻周刊》上读到，布什对这群人说，他不会对伊拉克采取任何不同的做法。
Now, I can't imagine him saying that.
现在，我无法想象他会说出这样的话。
I mean, there's so many things after the war that were done poorly, the vast majority of things.
我的意思是，战后有很多事情做得很糟糕，绝大多数事情。
Exactly right.
完全正确。
Anyway, that was one of the things that I thought, if he's really saying that, there's no way I can vote for him.
无论如何，这是我想的事情之一，如果他真的这么说，我就不可能投票给他。
There's no way.
没办法啊
I mean, and as it is, I don't know, I am despairing.
我的意思是，事实上，我不知道，我很绝望。
I hate both candidates.
我讨厌这两位候选人。
You know, I just cannot imagine casting a ballot for either one.
你知道，我无法想象为其中任何一个投票。
You know, the next big thing that's going to happen is going to be the debates.
你知道，即将发生的下一件大事将是辩论。
Oh, absolutely.
哦，绝对是。
Oh, debates, that is what I'm waiting for.
哦，辩论，这就是我在等待的。
That's where people get pinned down.
这就是人们被束缚的地方。
That's where people have to take a stand.
这就是人们必须表明立场的地方。
Come on in.
进来吧。
Ira Glass September 30, the night of the first debate.
艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 9 月 30 日，第一场辩论当晚。
Gig's house, in the Western Hills suburb of Cincinnati.
吉格的家，位于辛辛那提西山郊区。
We've spent enough time on the phone that, yes, now I'm calling him Gig.
我们已经在电话上度过了足够的时间，是的，现在我叫他吉格。
Well, here, let me introduce you.
好啦，就到这里，我给大家介绍一下。
This is my daughter, Molly.
这是我的女儿，莫莉。
Hello.
你好。
Ira Glass Hi, Ira.
艾拉·格拉斯 你好，艾拉。
Good to meet you.
很高兴认识你。
Written on your arm is?
你手臂上写的是？
Oh, I had a pep rally today at school.
哦，今天我在学校举行了一次鼓舞士气的集会。
It says frosh.
它说新鲜。
In retrospect, this first debate is now seen as one of the big turning points in this election, a decisive win for John Kerry and an embarrassing loss for the president.
回想起来，第一场辩论现在被视为这次选举的重大转折点之一，约翰·克里（John Kerry）取得决定性胜利，而总统则尴尬失利。
Poll numbers started rebounding for Kerry afterwards.
此后克里的民意调查数字开始反弹。
But what I saw in Gig's basement rec room that night was almost the opposite of what happened in the country as a whole.
但那天晚上我在吉格的地下室娱乐室看到的情况几乎与整个国家发生的情况相反。
And it's worth spending a minute talking about it here.
这里值得花一分钟讨论一下。
There were seven voters, three for Bush, two for Kerry, two undecided.
有七名选民，其中三名支持布什，两名支持克里，两名尚未决定。
Cincinnati is Bush country, and most of these seven voted for Bush in 2000.
辛辛那提是布什的国家，这七个人中的大多数在2000年投票给了布什。
But now, all seven thought the president was doing a lousy job in Iraq and with the economy.
但现在，七个人都认为总统在伊拉克和经济方面做得很糟糕。
Some find the president outright alarming on abortion and social issues.
一些人发现总统在堕胎和社会问题上完全令人震惊。
Even his supporters in the group were unhappy with the idea of voting for him again.
就连他在团体中的支持者也对再次投票给他的想法感到不满。
And they all sat down in front of the TV feeling like they still did not know John Kerry.
他们都坐在电视机前，感觉他们仍然不认识约翰·克里。
They'd seen the ads, they'd seen the news, but they still didn't get it.
他们看到了广告，看到了新闻，但他们仍然不明白。
What exactly was he going to do for the country?
他究竟要为国家做什么？
I do have an indistinct feeling about Kerry.
我对凯瑞确实有一种说不清道不明的感觉。
I'd like to know more about his views on the national security issues.
我想了解他对国家安全问题的看法。
Well, ?] first I need to get to know him as a politician.
嗯，？]首先我需要了解他作为一名政治家。
There's Gig's brother, Ed, and his wife, [?
其中有吉格的兄弟艾德和他的妻子[？
Vicki, ?] friends Paul and Jill, Joy, who works with Gig at the hospital.
Vicki，？] 朋友 Paul 和 Jill，Joy，与 Gig 在医院一起工作。
Gig's wife, [?
吉格的妻子，[？
Joann ?], set up refreshments and red, white, and blue decorations on the ping pong table.
乔安？]，在乒乓球桌上摆上茶点和红、白、蓝的装饰品。
And almost from the moment the debate started, this group was deeply skeptical of everything that Kerry had to say.
几乎从辩论开始的那一刻起，这群人就对克里所说的一切表示深深的怀疑。
When he accused the Bush administration of letting Osama bin Laden get away at Tora Bora, [?
当他指责布什政府让奥萨马·本·拉登在托拉博拉岛逃脱时，[？
Vicki ?] jumped in.
维姬？]跳了进来。
I don't ?] believe that.
我不相信？] 相信这一点。
Ira Glass When he said that UN inspectors should been given more of a chance in Iraq, Jill spoke up.
当艾拉·格拉斯说联合国视察员应该在伊拉克获得更多机会时，吉尔发言了。
When Kerry explained, correctly by the way, how missteps in the early years of the Bush administration led to North Korea expanding its nuclear program, nobody in the room believed him.
顺便说一句，当克里正确地解释了布什政府早年的失误如何导致朝鲜扩大核计划时，房间里没有人相信他。
Did you buy that?
你买那个了吗？
Jill No, I don't.
吉尔 不，我不。
I mean, I'd like to know more about it.
我的意思是，我想了解更多。
As Gig put it-- James Hackett Personally, the things Kerry has said in the past, he's said some things that are inconsistent and some things that are just outright false, in the past.
正如吉格所说——詹姆斯·哈克特（James Hackett）就个人而言，克里过去说过的话，他过去说过一些前后矛盾的事情，一些完全错误的事情。
And I mean, I really question.
我的意思是，我真的很疑问。
When he says something, I don't know if he really believes that or not.
当他说某事时，我不知道他是否真的相信。
Republican leaning voters in Republican towns are probably inclined to be skeptical of any Democrat to start with, but combine that with the largest television ad campaign in political history-- $2 to $4 million dollars in Republican ads each week in Ohio alone, many of those ads calling Kerry a liar, and a flip-flopper, and a liberal-- the result is, even when Kerry says things that are absolutely true, nobody in the room buys it.
共和党城镇中倾向共和党的选民一开始可能会对任何民主党人持怀疑态度，但结合政治史上最大规模的电视广告活动——仅在俄亥俄州，共和党每周的广告就花费 2 至 400 万美元，其中许多广告称克里是骗子、反复无常的人和自由派——结果是，即使克里说的话绝对正确，房间里也没有人相信。
And because of that, when he lays out a plan, for the economy, for health care, they assume the worst.
正因为如此，当他制定经济、医疗保健计划时，他们会做最坏的打算。
Gig points out, quite rightly, that John Kerry has still never answered the question from the debate, how would he pay for his health care plan and all the other things he wants to do, and cut the deficit in half, like he promises?
吉格非常正确地指出，约翰·克里仍然没有回答辩论中的问题，即他将如何支付他的医疗保健计划和所有其他他想做的事情，并像他承诺的那样将赤字削减一半？
He doesn't even believe Kerry's pledge to stick with the war and win the war in Iraq.
他甚至不相信克里坚持战争并赢得伊拉克战争的承诺。
No, that's the whole point.
不，这就是重点。
That's the whole point I'm making.
这就是我要表达的全部观点。
I think Kerry says things-- that's why I don't like Kerry, because I don't trust him.
我认为克里说了一些话——这就是我不喜欢克里的原因，因为我不信任他。
I don't trust what he says.
我不相信他说的话。
I talked to Gig a lot about who he believed and why in the weeks after the debate.
在辩论结束后的几周内，我和吉格谈了很多关于他相信谁以及为什么相信的问题。
Gig was very aware of the whoppers that the president has told, denying, for example, how badly the war is going, even lying about the number of trained Iraqi security forces during the debates.
吉格非常清楚总统所说的弥天大谎，例如否认战争的严重程度，甚至在辩论期间谎报训练有素的伊拉克安全部队的数量。
Or how the president misled the public on the cost of his own prescription drug program.
或者总统如何在他自己的处方药计划的成本上误导公众。
In Gig's view, both candidates lie, the president lies, but even if he lies, Gig feels, the president still has more integrity than John Kerry.
在吉格看来，两位候选人都撒谎了，总统也撒谎了，但吉格觉得，即使他撒谎，总统仍然比约翰·克里更有正直。
If you come down to, you know, somebody acting on their beliefs, I think Bush is more believable than Kerry.
如果归根结底，你知道，有人按照自己的信念行事，我认为布什比克里更可信。
I mean, I think, for instance, Bush will make some decisions that are terribly unpopular, they're phenomenally unpopular-- stem cell research, for instance-- phenomenally unpopular, and he will do it because he believes that's the right thing to do.
我的意思是，我认为，例如，布什会做出一些非常不受欢迎的决定，它们非常不受欢迎——例如干细胞研究——非常不受欢迎，但他会这样做，因为他相信这是正确的事情。
And I disagree with you, but again I would point out--
我不同意你的观点，但我想再次指出——
Well, give me an example.
好吧，给我举个例子。
Ira Glass But again, I would point out to you that you probably agree with Kerry on this issue.
Ira Glass 但我想再次向您指出，您可能同意克里在这个问题上的观点。
On what issue?
关于什么问题？
Ira Glass Stem cell research.
Ira Glass 干细胞研究。
OK, let me just stop the tape of this interview right there.
好吧，让我把这次采访的录音停在这里。
Gig pointed to examples like this one a lot, things where President Bush stuck to his convictions, like invading Iraq, or his tax cut, or stem cell research, and I found this a little confusing coming from Gig.
吉格经常举出这样的例子，布什总统坚持自己的信念，比如入侵伊拉克，或者他的减税，或者干细胞研究，我发现吉格说的这些有点令人困惑。
You know, in all these things where you're saying the President has convictions, and they're unpopular things to do, you don't notice that you side with the other guy.
你知道，在所有这些事情中，你说总统有信念，而且这些事情不受欢迎，但你没有注意到你站在另一个人一边。
And somehow, you're siding with the president because he's doing something that you don't like.
不知何故，你站在总统一边，因为他正在做一些你不喜欢的事情。
It's crazy jujitsu.
这是疯狂的柔术。
You're saying, you know what, you know what I like about that guy, you know why I'm going to vote for him?
你是说，你知道吗，你知道我喜欢那个人什么，你知道我为什么要投票给他吗？
He take stands that I hate and I disagree with.
他采取的立场是我讨厌和不同意的。
I can understand how that-- Ira Glass It seems really crazy.
我能理解——艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 这看起来真的很疯狂。
That seems odd.
这看起来很奇怪。
I can understand that.
我能理解。
No, the reason is, I think-- I don't like Bush.
不，我认为原因是——我不喜欢布什。
I disagree with a ton of things he does, you're right.
我不同意他做的很多事情，你是对的。
I think the thing that you have to have in your president, you have to believe in him.
我认为你必须相信你的总统。
He has to say something, and you have to believe that he is going to do what he says, or that he believes what he says.
他必须说些什么，而你必须相信他会按照他所说的去做，或者他相信他所说的。
And I don't agree with what he says a ton of times, but Kerry will not make a hard decision that is unpopular.
我不同意他多次说过的话，但克里不会做出不受欢迎的艰难决定。
I believe that.
我相信这一点。
But you value that above somebody who's making popular decisions that you agree with?
但你更看重这一点，而不是做出你同意的流行决定的人？
I know, that sounds crazy, doesn't it?
我知道，这听起来很疯狂，不是吗？
But I think Bush has more integrity than Kerry.
但我认为布什比克里更正直。
But who cares if he has integrity from your point of view, if he has integrity in supporting policies that you disagree with?
但从你的角度来看，谁在乎他是否正直，如果他在支持你不同意的政策时正直呢？
In some sense, like, who cares if Kerry is a suck-up?
从某种意义上说，谁在乎克里是不是个马屁精？
He's a suck-up who's sucking up to you.
他是个巴结你的马屁精。
He wants to do what you want.
他想做你想做的事。
That's a very good point.
这是一个很好的观点。
Well, see, I guess that's why I'm still not completely decided.
嗯，看，我想这就是为什么我还没有完全决定的原因。
I mean, I think that's an excellent point.
我的意思是，我认为这是一个很好的观点。
You know, it strikes me, you keep saying, if only the Democrats had nominated anybody but Kerry, but don't you think, whoever they nominated, the Republicans would have painted them in some sort of way where you would be saying this about them?
你知道，这让我印象深刻，你一直说，如果民主党提名了除克里以外的任何人就好了，但你不认为，无论他们提名谁，共和党都会以某种你会这样评价他们的方式来描绘他们吗？
No, I do not believe that.
不，我不相信。
Ira Glass How?
艾拉·格拉斯怎么样？
No, absolutely not.
不，绝对不是。
Ira Glass But didn't they do exactly the same thing with Clinton?
艾拉·格拉斯：但是他们不是对克林顿做了同样的事情吗？
They painted him as a flip-flopper.
他们把他描绘成一个人字拖。
He was an excellent moderate president.
他是一位出色的温和派总统。
There's an example of a moderate president.
有一个温和派总统的例子。
He was excellent.
他很优秀。
He was excellent.
他很优秀。
And you want to know why?
你想知道为什么吗？
Because he was a suck-up.
因为他是个马屁精。
Seriously, that's what--
说真的，这就是——
He did.
他做到了。
He wanted to take the popular position, much like John Kerry.
他想采取受欢迎的立场，就像约翰·克里一样。
That's why he held all the positions that you held.
这就是为什么他担任了你担任的所有职位。
That's why you like him in retrospect.
这就是为什么你回想起来会喜欢他。
Because all the things that you like, he looked at polling data, and he said, you know what, most people like that, so who cares what I, Bill Clinton, think, I'm just going to be for that stuff.
因为所有你喜欢的东西，他都会查看民意调查数据，然后他说，你知道吗，大多数人都喜欢那样，所以谁在乎我，比尔·克林顿，怎么想，我只是为了那些东西。
Absolutely, that's right.
绝对是这样，没错。
He tacked to the right.
他转向右侧。
He co-opted a lot of the Republican issues.
他采纳了很多共和党议题。
OK, so Bill Clinton did that.
好吧，比尔·克林顿就是这样做的。
Bill Clinton basically said, I'm going to look at the polls, I'm going to suck up to whatever the majority of people want.
比尔·克林顿基本上是说，我要看看民意调查，我要迎合大多数人的要求。
In retrospect, you like him.
回想起来，你喜欢他。
OK, so if that's what Kerry turns out to be, he'll look at the polls every day, whatever the majority wants, he's going to give it to them.
好吧，如果克里结果就是这样，他会每天查看民意调查，无论大多数人想要什么，他都会给他们。
Well, eight more years of peace and prosperity.
好吧，又是八年的和平与繁荣。
Hmm.
唔。
That's a good point.
这是一个很好的观点。
That's a good point.
这是一个很好的观点。
My conversations with Gig were a source of fascination for me, and I think for him too, because we agreed on so many things: the war, tax cuts, the deficit, social issues.
我与吉格的谈话让我着迷，我想对他来说也是如此，因为我们在很多事情上达成了共识：战争、减税、赤字、社会问题。
We agreed that the Bush administration seems incompetent at conducting the war on terror.
我们一致认为，布什政府在开展反恐战争方面似乎无能。
We agreed that John Kerry doesn't really seem to stand for much, and that when he voted for the war in Iraq, it was probably only because he was scared that voting against it would hurt his presidential ambitions, which shows an alarming lack of conviction on his part.
我们一致认为，约翰·克里似乎并没有多大意义，当他投票支持伊拉克战争时，可能只是因为他担心投票反对会损害他的总统野心，这表明他缺乏坚定的信念，令人震惊。
We agreed on all of this.
我们对所有这些都达成了一致。
And yet, Gig considers himself a Republican, and I consider myself a Democrat.
然而，吉格认为自己是共和党人，而我认为自己是民主党人。
It's perplexing, really.
确实令人费解。
Anyway, weeks pass, more debates, then we get this message on our voicemail here at This American Life.
不管怎样，几周过去了，更多的辩论，然后我们在《美国生活》的语音信箱中收到了这条消息。
Voice call received Tuesday, October 19.
10 月 19 日星期二接到语音电话。
Hi, this is Gig Hackett.
嗨，我是吉格·哈克特。
I've come to a final decision that I think is very well-reasoned and I'm comfortable with.
我做出了一个我认为非常合理且令我满意的最终决定。
I don't know if Ira is going to interview me again.
我不知道Ira是否会再次采访我。
I didn't want to bug him in case he wasn't.
我不想打扰他，以防他不这么做。
Right, I wouldn't be curious.
对啊，我不会好奇。
Of course I call him, and Gig tells me that he's broken it down.
当然，我打电话给他，吉格告诉我他已经把它打破了。
On security, he trusts the president more.
在安全方面，他更信任总统。
On the economy, both candidates are promising to cut the deficit by half in four years, and Gig, he doesn't believe either one, but he doesn't believe Kerry more.
在经济方面，两位候选人都承诺在四年内将赤字削减一半，而吉格，他不相信任何一位候选人，但他也不相信克里。
I'm not voting, truly, I'm not voting on the basis of party line.
我不会投票，真的，我不会根据党派路线投票。
I'm not.
我不是。
I would vote for almost any Democrat over Bush.
我会投票给几乎所有民主党人而不是布什。
But they've got the most liberal Democrat in the Senate.
但他们在参议院拥有最自由的民主党人。
But actually Kerry isn't the most liberal Democrat in the Senate.
但实际上克里并不是参议院中最自由的民主党人。
How can they say that so many times without it being-- well, who is?
他们怎么能说这么多次而没有——好吧，是谁？
How do you say that?
你怎么说呢？
This is an article from the Los Angeles Times.
这是《洛杉矶时报》的一篇文章。
This article, and a similar one that was in The Washington Post, point out that the most liberal label comes from the nonpartisan magazine, the National Journal .
这篇文章以及《华盛顿邮报》上的一篇类似文章指出，最自由主义的标签来自无党派杂志《国家日报》。
But the National Journal itself has said that the label is misleading.
但《国家日报》本身表示，这个标签具有误导性。
As I told Gig, it's based on Kerry's 2003 Senate voting record, when he missed a lot of votes while campaigning.
正如我告诉吉格的那样，这是基于克里 2003 年参议院的投票记录，当时他在竞选期间错过了很多选票。
When you look at his full voting record since coming into the Senate, you find that 10 current Senators rate as more liberal in the National Journal .
当你查看他进入参议院以来的完整投票记录时，你会发现 10 位现任参议员在《国家杂志》中被评为更加自由派。
Kerry is liberal, there's no doubt about it, but he supported the Gramm-Rudman-Hollings Balanced Budget Act.
毫无疑问，克里是自由派，但他支持《格拉姆-拉德曼-霍林斯平衡预算法案》。
He supported free trade.
他支持自由贸易。
He supported the Clinton welfare reform.
他支持克林顿的福利改革。
All things that liberals oppose.
所有自由主义者反对的事情。
The moderate Democratic Leadership Council counts him as one of their own.
温和的民主党领导委员会将他视为自己的一员。
I think that's really interesting.
我认为这真的很有趣。
I'll look into it some more.
我会再研究一下。
We also talked about Gig's fears of what's going to happen if President Bush is in the White House, and Republicans are controlling the House and the Senate, as they are likely to do again.
我们还谈到了吉格对如果布什总统入主白宫而共和党人控制众议院和参议院会发生什么的担忧，因为他们很可能会再次这样做。
That was the biggest stumbling block to voting for Bush, was that very thing.
这正是投票给布什的最大障碍。
So what you're going to have is you're going to have President Bush, and then you'll have a Republican House, a Republican Senate, and then--
因此，你将拥有布什总统，然后你将拥有共和党众议院、共和党参议院，然后——
I know, I know.
我知道，我知道。
See, you're making me feel bad about--
你看，你让我感觉很糟糕——
You're going to be OK with the one to three-- no, no, just to play this out-- you're going to be OK with the one to three Supreme Court justices who the president will appoint, probably overturn Roe versus Wade.
你会同意一到三名——不，不，只是为了解决这个问题——你会同意总统任命的一到三名最高法院法官，可能会推翻罗伊诉韦德案。
You're good with that, too?
你也这样好吗？
No, I'm not.
不，我不是。
I'm not.
我不是。
I'm not.
我不是。
I'm getting depressed again.
我又开始郁闷了
You know, you're right, that is-- these are very good points.
你知道，你是对的，也就是说——这些都是非常好的观点。
I guess it's up in the air again for me.
我想这对我来说又是一个悬而未决的事情。
I'm going to have to think about this.
我得考虑一下这个问题。
After that phone call, Gig decided on Kerry for a few days.
在那通电话之后，吉格决定在克里身上呆几天。
And then, after weeks of, dare I say, flip-flopping, he came back to President Bush.
然后，我敢说，在几周的反复无常之后，他又回到了布什总统身边。
I asked him over and over if, in the end, he's a Republican, he just feels more comfortable with the Republican.
我一遍又一遍地问他，最终他是否是一名共和党人，他只是对共和党感到更舒服。
And he said, no. He said it was all about the issues.
他说，不。他说这都是关于问题的。
In the end, he thinks the president will keep us safer, despite the debacle in Iraq, and despite the fact that he disagrees with them on almost every other issue.
最后，他认为总统将使我们更加安全，尽管在伊拉克发生了惨败，尽管他在几乎所有其他问题上都与他们意见不同。
Act Two, Cold-Cock The Vote.
第二幕，冷决投票。
There are saboteurs targeting undecided voters, and all other voters besides.
有些破坏者针对的是尚未做出决定的选民，以及所有其他选民。
Some of these things are so outrageous we felt like we had to devote some air time to it this week.
其中一些事情太离谱了，我们觉得这周我们必须花一些时间来讨论它。
Jack Hitt went to Democrats and Republicans alike to review what's happening.
杰克·希特（Jack Hitt）拜访了民主党和共和党，以回顾正在发生的事情。
There are already hundreds of alarming stories this election year, and as a public service, I've immersed myself in this hideous sump of pond scum.
今年选举年已经出现了数百起令人震惊的故事，作为一名公共服务人员，我已经沉浸在这个可怕的池塘浮渣中。
It's deep here.
这里很深。
So deep, that to give you even a bare sense of the sheer profundity of this abyss, I'm going to have to resort to one of the oldest gimmicks in radio broadcasting.
太深了，为了让你对这个深渊有一个简单的认识，我将不得不诉诸无线电广播中最古老的伎俩之一。
That's right, speeded up music.
没错，加快了音乐的速度。
Nevada.
内华达州。
Dan Burdish, former director of the state's Republican party, filed a complaint to remove 17,000 voters from the rolls because they had failed to file a change of address card.
该州共和党前主任丹·伯迪什 (Dan Burdish) 提出申诉，要求将 17,000 名选民从选民名单中删除，因为他们未能提交地址变更卡。
State law doesn't require it, and in fact, allows you to vote after moving.
州法律没有要求，事实上，允许您在搬家后投票。
When asked why he did it, Burdish told the press, I'm looking to take Democrats off the voter rolls.
当被问及为什么这样做时，伯迪什告诉媒体，我希望将民主党从选民名册上剔除。
Florida.
佛罗里达。
Senior citizens in Democratic precincts are calling their election boards by the hundreds, reporting that strangers, claiming to be from the elections office, are offering to hand-deliver their absentee ballots for them, even though there is no such program.
民主党选区的数百名老年人给他们的选举委员会打电话，报告称，自称来自选举办公室的陌生人主动提出为他们亲手交付缺席选票，尽管没有这样的计划。
Wyoming.
怀俄明州。
Secretary of State Joseph Meyer interpreted the statutes there to outlaw voter registration drives, like the kind where a group sets up a card table in a mall or library.
国务卿约瑟夫·迈耶 (Joseph Meyer) 将那里的法规解释为禁止选民登记活动，例如团体在商场或图书馆设立牌桌的活动。
One of Meyer's oldest friends, a classmate in both high school and college, is Dick Cheney.
迈耶最老的朋友之一是迪克·切尼，他是高中和大学的同学。
Philadelphia.
费城。
Three weeks before the election, a white Republican alderman named Matt Robb requested that 63 polling stations in African-American neighborhoods be relocated, thereby making it more confusing for 37,000 Democrat-leaning voters.
大选前三周，一位名叫马特·罗伯 (Matt Robb) 的白人共和党议员要求搬迁非裔美国人社区的 63 个投票站，从而让 37,000 名倾向民主党的选民更加困惑。
Florida.
佛罗里达。
Once again, as in the 2000 election, the state compiled a list of felons to be barred from voting.
与 2000 年选举一样，该州再次编制了一份禁止投票的重罪犯名单。
Throughout this election year, Governor Jeb Bush's administration struggled to keep this a secret.
在整个选举年中，杰布·布什州长的政府一直在努力保守这一秘密。
After a lawsuit forced it into the open, people quickly saw that, while some 23,000 Democrat-leaning black felons were barred from voting, almost the same number of Hispanic felons in Florida, who tend to vote Republican, were somehow not on the list.
在一场诉讼迫使此事公开后，人们很快发现，虽然大约 23,000 名倾向于民主党的黑人重罪犯被禁止投票，但佛罗里达州几乎相同数量的倾向于投票共和党的西班牙裔重罪犯却不知何故不在名单上。
There are some stories, though, where you really want to slow down and relish the details.
不过，有些故事你真的想放慢脚步，细细品味细节。
Take New Hampshire.
以新罕布什尔州为例。
On Election Day two years ago, the Democrats offered their voters a hotline to call if they were disabled or aged and needed a ride to the polls.
两年前的选举日，民主党为选民提供了一条热线电话，如果他们是残疾人或老年人，需要搭车去投票站的话，可以拨打热线电话。
Early in the morning, the phones started ringing continuously, but when the volunteers answered, the callers would hang up.
一大早，电话就响个不停，但等志愿者接听后，电话就挂断了。
This jammed the lines, and legitimate callers couldn't get through.
这导致线路堵塞，合法的呼叫者无法接通。
The Democrats complained to Verizon, which immediately traced every one of the calls to a Virginia company called GOP Marketplace.
民主党向 Verizon 投诉，该公司立即追踪到每一个电话都打给了弗吉尼亚州一家名为 GOP Marketplace 的公司。
After a police investigation, the president of that firm, and a former executive director of the New Hampshire Republican party, both pled guilty to criminal charges and admitted that they had hatched the plan to have callers from GOP Marketplace jam the line in order to prevent elderly and disabled Democrats from getting to the polls.
经过警方调查后，该公司总裁和新罕布什尔州共和党前执行董事均承认了刑事指控，并承认他们策划了让共和党市场的来电者堵塞电话线的计划，以阻止老年人和残疾民主党人前往投票站。
But that's not the end of the story.
但这还不是故事的结局。
The court documents refer ominously to an unindicted co-conspirator, a national strategist who arranged the entire dirty trick.
法庭文件不祥地提到了一位未被起诉的同谋，一位安排了整个肮脏伎俩的国家战略家。
The Democrats launched a civil suit to find out how far up the line the order went.
民主党发起民事诉讼，以查明该命令的进展情况。
In October, the Democrats' lawyer, Steve Gordon, scheduled a routine deposition of one of those involved.
10 月，民主党律师史蒂夫·戈登 (Steve Gordon) 安排对其中一名涉案人员进行例行证词。
20 minutes before they were all to meet in Gordon's office, a call came in.
就在他们在戈登办公室见面的前 20 分钟，一个电话打了进来。
It was the Justice Department of the United States in Washington, John Ashcroft's office, issuing an emergency halt to the deposition.
位于华盛顿的美国司法部约翰·阿什克罗夫特的办公室紧急叫停了证词作证。
The deposition would have to be postponed until after the election.
作证必须推迟到选举之后。
This federal intrusion into local politics was so ham-fisted and extraordinary that it got tongues wagging all over the state.
联邦政府对地方政治的干预是如此笨拙和非同寻常，以至于引起了全州的议论。
And soon enough, the tongues shook loose the identity of the mystery phone jammer as one of President Bush's top strategists, Jeffery Tobin, the regional director of Bush/Cheney '04 for the entire Northeast.
很快，人们就揭开了神秘电话干扰者的身份，他是布什总统的顶级战略家之一杰弗里·托宾（Jeffery Tobin），他是布什/切尼'04年整个东北地区的区域主任。
Two weeks ago, he resigned.
两周前，他辞职了。
In the past, all these tactics would have been found out by the media weeks after the election, when the perpetrators would be long gone, and the damage done.
在过去，所有这些策略都会在选举几周后被媒体发现，那时肇事者早已消失，损失也已造成。
But this year, the internet is ready.
但今年，互联网已经准备好了。
Every day, new accounts of political scamming surface on blogs like Atrios or Daily Kos.
每天，Atrios 或 Daily Kos 等博客上都会出现新的政治诈骗报道。
There's even an archive of dirty tricks maintained over at [?
甚至还有一个肮脏伎俩的档案保存在 [?
erepost.com ?].
erepost.com？]。
And when you browse these sites, once hidden patterns suddenly appear.
而当你浏览这些网站时，曾经隐藏的模式突然出现。
It's sort of like how historians say that serial murder was only discovered after the invention of the telegraph, which allowed cops to quickly share evidence.
这有点像历史学家所说的连环谋杀案是在电报发明后才被发现的，电报使警察能够快速分享证据。
This year, the blogs have allowed us to see, for the very first time, the wide, wide world of serial vote suppression.
今年，这些博客让我们第一次看到了连续投票压制的广阔世界。
For example, let's look at the accounts of two librarians who've never met, from opposite sides of the country.
例如，让我们看一下来自不同国家的两位素未谋面的图书馆员的账户。
In September, Megan O'Flaherty, a librarian in Medford, Oregon, got a letter.
九月份，俄勒冈州梅德福市的图书管理员梅根·奥弗莱厄蒂收到了一封信。
The letter that came to me, it's on Sproul & Associates Incorporated letterhead.
我收到的这封信，抬头是 Sproul & Associates Incorporated。
"Our firm has been contacted to help coordinate a national nonpartisan voter registration drive.
“已联系我们公司帮助协调全国无党派选民登记活动。
We would like to be able to register people to vote in front of your location."
我们希望能够在您所在地前登记投票。”
That name, Sproul & Associates, I want you to remember that.
这个名字，Sproul & Associates，我希望你记住它。
Now let's leave Oregon and fly off to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, where Holly McCullough, at the Carnegie Library, got a similar request.
现在，让我们离开俄勒冈州，飞往宾夕法尼亚州匹兹堡，卡内基图书馆的霍莉·麦卡洛 (Holly McCullough) 也收到了类似的请求。
Nathan Sproul for a nonpartisan registration drive.
内森·斯普劳尔（Nathan Sproul）发起无党派登记运动。
But things weren't what they seemed.
但事情并不像看上去的那样。
Holly, for example, had patrons complaining that the Sproul workers were quizzing them about who they would vote for.
例如，霍莉的顾客抱怨说，斯普劳尔的工作人员正在询问他们会投票给谁。
So both Megan and Holly started digging.
于是梅根和霍莉都开始挖掘。
And here's what they found out.
这是他们的发现。
Sproul, it turns out, is a partisan group, run by Nathan Sproul, the former director of the Arizona Republican Party, and the state's Christian Coalition.
事实证明，斯普劳尔是一个党派团体，由亚利桑那州共和党和该州基督教联盟前主任内森·斯普劳尔领导。
Sproul has received more than $3 million in contracts this year, from no less than the Republican National Committee, to pump up party registration.
斯普劳尔今年从共和党全国委员会那里收到了超过 300 万美元的合同，以促进政党注册。
And, these last two weeks, Sproul has been popping up everywhere, in as many as 10 states.
而且，在过去的两周里，斯普劳尔的身影出现在多达 10 个州的各个角落。
Let's soar off to one of them, West Virginia.
让我们飞向其中之一——西弗吉尼亚州。
Lisa Bragg is a temp worker there who signed on with a half dozen other temps for work described as customer service.
丽莎·布拉格是那里的一名临时工，她与其他六名临时工签约从事客户服务工作。
She remembers it required a day of training.
她记得这需要一天的训练。
They presented us with some paperwork, and on one of the papers, on the top of the paper, it says Sproul & Associates.
他们向我们提供了一些文件，其中一张文件的顶部写着 Sproul & Associates。
And it's a script, a voter registration script.
这是一个脚本，一个选民登记脚本。
And it gives you different scenarios, one is for Bush and one is for Kerry, as to how you would speak to people.
它为你提供了不同的场景，一种是布什的，一种是克里的，关于你如何与人交谈。
Do you remember sort of what those scripts were?
你还记得那些脚本是什么吗？
It's right in front of me.
它就在我面前。
I kept these forms.
我保留了这些表格。
Oh, really?
哦真的吗？
Oh, great.
哦，太好了。
Can you just, like, if you were approaching me on the street, how would you?
你能不能，就像，如果你在街上接近我，你会怎么做？
OK.
好的。
I would say, hello, we are doing a simple survey.
我会说，你好，我们正在做一项简单的调查。
If the election were held today, would you vote for President Bush or Senator Kerry?
如果今天举行选举，您会投票给布什总统还是克里参议员？
If you were to say Bush, I would say, great, well, this is a very important election year, are you registered to vote at your current residence?
如果你说布什，我会说，太好了，那么，这是一个非常重要的选举年，你在你现在的住所登记投票了吗？
If you would say no, I would say, all right, can you please fill out this voter registration form?
如果你说不，我会说，好吧，你能填写这张选民登记表吗？
If I had said Kerry, what would you have said to me?
如果我说克里，你会对我说什么？
Thank you very much for your time.
非常感谢您抽出时间。
I will report this.
我会报告这一点。
Oh, so you wouldn't hand the person a registration card at all?
哦，所以你根本不会给这个人一张登记卡？
No. Jack Hitt Lisa says she quit.
不。杰克·希特·丽莎说她辞职了。
She didn't like all the secrecy and covert operations involved.
她不喜欢所有涉及的秘密和秘密行动。
On another sheet of paper, it says-- they were telling us, if the media approached us, to go to a pay phone and call this number.
另一张纸上写着——他们告诉我们，如果媒体联系我们，请前往公用电话拨打这个号码。
They didn't want us talking to the media.
他们不希望我们接受媒体采访。
And when you called that number, what were you supposed to just say?
当你拨打那个号码时，你应该说什么？
The media's coming.
媒体来了。
The media's coming.
媒体来了。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Stop, the media's here.
站住，媒体来了。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I didn't want to be put in a position like that.
我不想被置于这样的境地。
Not only was I lying to people about what I was doing, but I was going to hide from the media?
我不仅对人们说谎，而且还要躲避媒体？
That's crazy.
太疯狂了。
OK, Tinkerbell, are you ready to fly off to the next spot?
好的，小叮当，你准备好飞往下一个地点了吗？
Look, there's Nevada.
看，那是内华达州。
This week, though, what happens in Vegas isn't staying there.
然而本周，维加斯发生的事情并不会停留在那里。
It's the latest chapter in the Sproul story, one that will soon get told in criminal court.
这是斯普劳尔故事的最新一章，很快就会在刑事法庭上讲述。
A former Sproul worker has hired a lawyer named Paul Larson, who explains the upcoming case.
斯普劳尔的一名前工人聘请了一位名叫保罗·拉尔森的律师，他对即将发生的案件进行了解释。
This young man didn't do the screening process and just registered everybody who would let him do it.
这个年轻人没有进行筛选过程，只是登记了所有愿意让他做的人。
This is according to his sworn affidavit.
这是根据他的宣誓证词得出的。
The organization indicated to him that, we're not paying you to register Democrats, and actually tore up several of them in front of him, which he retrieved from the trash and we provided to the court as exhibits.
该组织向他表示，我们不会付钱给你登记民主党人，实际上，他在他面前撕毁了其中的几张，他从垃圾堆中捡起，我们将其作为证据提供给法庭。
Two more former Sproul workers in Nevada, and others in Oregon, have stepped forward with allegations of more registrations being ripped up.
内华达州的另外两名前斯普劳尔工人以及俄勒冈州的其他工人站出来指控更多的登记被撕毁。
No one knows how many may have been destroyed.
没有人知道有多少可能被摧毁。
So these people, all Democrats, will not be able to vote at all.
所以这些人，全是民主党人，根本无法投票。
They think they are registered, and may show up at the polls on Election Day to learn that there is no legal way, provisional ballot or not, that they could vote.
他们认为自己已经登记，并且可能会在选举日出现在投票站，结果发现无论是否有临时选票，他们都没有合法的方式可以投票。
In response to the Sproul story, Republicans in Nevada have said that Democrats engage in similar tactics.
针对斯普劳尔的故事，内华达州的共和党人表示民主党也采取了类似的策略。
Chris Carr, the executive director of the state party, made public three Democrat registration forms with nonexistent addresses.
该党执行董事克里斯·卡尔(Chris Carr)公开了三份民主党登记表，但地址均不存在。
This is the way these stories go.
这些故事就是这样进行的。
Both sides make charges that seem roughly the same, but on this issue, there is a qualitative difference between Democrats and Republicans.
双方提出的指控看似大致相同，但在这个问题上，民主党和共和党却存在质的区别。
I called both camps and asked them to give me their worst stuff about the other side.
我给两个营地都打了电话，请他们告诉我对方最糟糕的情况。
Here's what the Republican spokesman, Scott Hogenson, said.
以下是共和党发言人斯科特·霍根森 (Scott Hogenson) 的言论。
We have been compiling hundreds of pages of media reports from all over the country of documented cases, of investigations, of fraudulent voter registration cases, everything from police in Ohio investigating a pro-Kerry effort to submit faulty voter registration forms and pay the people with crack cocaine, to a gentleman in Denver, Colorado, who brags and laughs on television about having registered to vote 35 times.
我们已经收集了来自全国各地的数百页媒体报道，涉及记录在案的案件、调查和欺诈性选民登记案件，从俄亥俄州警方调查亲克里提交错误选民登记表并向人民支付强效可卡因的行为，到科罗拉多州丹佛市的一位绅士，他在电视上吹嘘并嘲笑自己已登记投票 35 次。
The number and degree of faulty, and questionable, and outright fraudulent registrations is really quite stunning in its depth and breadth.
错误、可疑和彻头彻尾的欺诈性注册的数量和程度在深度和广度上确实令人震惊。
He sent me a copy.
他给我发了一份副本。
It's all newspaper clips, many of them unverified charges.
都是报纸剪辑，其中很多都是未经证实的指控。
There are a few that check out.
有几个检查。
There really was, for example, this white guy working for an outfit affiliated with the NAACP, who registered voters under names like Mary Poppins and Jeffrey Dahmer.
例如，确实有一个白人为全国有色人种协进会附属机构工作，他以玛丽·波平斯 (Mary Poppins) 和杰弗里·达默 (Jeffrey Dahmer) 等名字登记选民。
And it's true, he was paid in crack cocaine.
确实如此，他的报酬是强效可卡因。
Very bad, and a great story.
非常糟糕，而且是一个很棒的故事。
And then there was the Colorado guy who registered himself 35 times.
还有一个科罗拉多州的人，他注册了 35 次。
Also true, also very bad.
也确实如此，也很糟糕。
But the reason you're going to be hearing about these two examples over and over in the official Republican talking points in the next few days is that that's the best they've got in their hundreds of pages.
但在接下来的几天里，你会在共和党官方谈话要点中一遍又一遍地听到这两个例子，因为这是他们数百页中最好的例子。
Strange enough, reading the very stories they sent often undercut their main argument.
奇怪的是，阅读他们发送的故事往往会削弱他们的主要论点。
For example, that Colorado guy, here's a line from the article the GOP sent me.
例如，科罗拉多州的那个人，这是共和党发给我的文章中的一句话。
Quote, "Just because you register someone 35 times doesn't mean they vote 35 times," end quote.
引用，“仅仅因为你为某人注册了 35 次并不意味着他们投票了 35 次，”引用结束。
Let me repeat.
让我重复一遍。
These are quotes from the official Republican vote fraud press packet.
这些是来自共和党官方投票欺诈新闻包的引述。
Where there are real cases of registration fraud in this compendium, they usually involve poor people getting caught, not trying to fix the vote, but trying to squeeze a few extra bucks, or, OK, a nice chunk of crack, out of these organizations that stupidly pay the temps a fee for each registration card turned in.
在本概要中存在真实的登记欺诈案例的地方，它们通常涉及穷人被抓住，他们不是试图操纵投票，而是试图从这些愚蠢地为每张上交的登记卡向临时工支付费用的组织中榨取一些额外的钱，或者，好吧，一大笔钱。
But don't take my word for it.
但不要相信我的话。
Again, the GOP's own clip file.
再次，共和党自己的剪辑文件。
Registration irregularities are, quote, "Not an attempt to commit fraud, but rather the result of greedy workers who get paid for every voter they sign up, or already registered voters who forget and register again," end quote.
引述说，登记违规行为“不是企图进行欺诈，而是贪婪的工人的结果，他们为每一位登记的选民获得报酬，或者已经登记的选民忘记并再次登记，”最后引用。
Meanwhile, the incidents of vote suppression on the Republican side involve massive numbers, and soon enough, actual jail time for high-ranking officials connected directly to the party.
与此同时，共和党方面的压制选票事件涉及人数众多，很快，与该党有直接关系的高级官员就被实际入狱。
Chuck McGee, the executive director of the New Hampshire GOP, is scheduled to be sentenced.
新罕布什尔州共和党执行董事查克·麦吉预计将被判刑。
Sproul is awaiting trial.
斯普劳尔正在等待审判。
Then this Florida's felony purge list, which almost knocked 23,000 African-Americans off the voting rolls, while keeping arguably the same number of Republican-leaning felons free to vote.
然后是佛罗里达州的重罪清洗名单，几乎将 23,000 名非裔美国人从投票名单上剔除，同时可以说保留了相同数量的倾向共和党的重罪犯自由投票。
Recently, the Sarasota Herald Tribune broke the story that Governor Jeb Bush, the president's brother, ordered the state to proceed with the felony purge list, even though the database company that put it altogether informed him that it was so hopelessly flawed he should, quote, "Pull the plug."
最近，《萨拉索塔先驱论坛报》报道了总统的兄弟、州长杰布·布什命令该州继续实施重罪清除名单的报道，尽管整理这份名单的数据库公司告诉他，该名单存在无可救药的缺陷，他应该引用“拔掉插头”。
So are they all the same?
那么它们都是一样的吗？
Is the crackhead faking a handful of registrations for Jeffrey Dahmer the same kind of thing as wiping 17,000 voters in Nevada, 23,000 voters in Florida, 30,000 voters in Ohio completely off the rolls?
这个疯子为杰弗里·达默（Jeffrey Dahmer）伪造了一些登记，这与彻底抹去内华达州 17,000 名选民、佛罗里达州 23,000 名佛罗里达州选民、俄亥俄州 30,000 名选民的名册是一样的吗？
The other part of the ground war that's being waged this weekend is to make you think that they are.
本周末正在进行的地面战争的另一部分是让你认为他们是这样的。
Jack Hitt in New Haven.
杰克·希特在纽黑文。
Remember this number when you're voting if anybody tries any of these tricks on you, 866-OUR-VOTE.
如果有人对您尝试任何这些伎俩，请在投票时记住这个号码：866-OUR-VOTE。
Dozens of democracy-loving lawyers standing by for free to help you.
数十名热爱民主的律师随时为您免费提供帮助。
866-OUR-VOTE.
866-我们的投票。
Coming up, a Navy recruit has to decide on who his next boss will be, that is, who the Commander-in-Chief will be.
接下来，一名海军新兵必须决定他的下一个老板是谁，即总司令是谁。
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today on our program in this election week, undecided voters and others.
今天在我们的选举周节目中，犹豫不决的选民和其他人。
We've arrived at Act Three of our show.
我们已经到了节目的第三幕了。
Act Three, One Son, One Vote.
第三幕，一子一票。
Now an undecided voter who is just 18 years old, in the tiny town of Selma, Indiana, outside of Muncie.
现在，他是一名尚未决定的选民，年仅 18 岁，住在印第安纳州曼西郊外的塞尔玛小镇。
He just graduated high school and signed up for the Navy, hoping to become a Navy SEAL and fight in the war on terror.
他刚刚高中毕业，报名加入了海军，希望成为一名海豹突击队队员，参加反恐战争。
He doesn't follow politics.
他不关注政治。
He's voting for the first time.
他是第一次投票。
His three big political influences, in no particular order, are TV, his brother, and his mom.
他的三大政治影响力（排名不分先后）是电视、他的兄弟和他的妈妈。
OK, TV you know.
好吧，电视你知道。
His brother was part of the invading forces that went into Iraq, served there until last August, now he's a financial adviser in Washington, DC.
他的兄弟是进入伊拉克的入侵部队的一员，一直在那里服役直到去年八月，现在他是华盛顿特区的一名财务顾问。
His mom is a nurse at a VA hospital and a major in the Air Force Reserve.
他的母亲是退伍军人管理局医院的一名护士，也是空军预备役的一名少校。
She's volunteered to go into Iraq next year.
她自愿明年前往伊拉克。
One of the two is for Bush, one is for Kerry, TV is no help, which leaves Matthew in a pretty uncommitted place.
其中两个是布什的，一个是克里的，电视没有帮助，这让马修处于一个相当不明确的境地。
Sarah Koenig dropped in to see how the decision making is going in this, Matthew's first presidential election.
莎拉·科尼格 (Sarah Koenig) 顺便过来看看马修的第一次总统选举中的决策进展如何。
When I get to his house, it's around five in the evening on the day of the first presidential debate, and the ever encouraged youth vote is sitting on the sofa.
当我到达他家时，时间是第一场总统辩论当天的晚上五点左右，一直受到鼓励的年轻人投票正坐在沙发上。
The TV is on, a skateboarding show, but he's not really watching.
电视开着，正在播放滑板节目，但他并没有真正在看。
Instead, he's inspecting a large mechanical disk that looks like, and in fact is, a robot.
相反，他正在检查一个看起来像机器人的大型机械盘，实际上它就是一个机器人。
I'm picking the string out of this Roomba because it's-- you know what this is?
我从 Roomba 上拔出绳子，因为它——你知道这是什么吗？
No I don't, what is it?
不，我不知道，那是什么？
Matthew Chasteen They roam around the house vacuuming, but I got it caught on this roll of string when I left it today, so now I've got to take it all out.
马修·查斯坦 他们在房子里闲逛，用吸尘器打扫，但今天我离开时，它被这卷绳子缠住了，所以现在我必须把它全部拿出来。
If you talk to Matthew for a few minutes, you realize he's the perfect person for a vacuum that doesn't require you to get off the couch to use it.
如果你和马修聊了几分钟，你就会意识到他是吸尘器的完美人选，不需要你离开沙发就可以使用它。
He's 18, living in his mom's house for the moment.
他今年 18 岁，目前住在他妈妈家里。
He's not working.
他没有工作。
His job, he says, is getting in shape before basic training.
他说，他的工作是在基础训练之前塑造体形。
His mom leaves him lists of things to do: clean his room, peel potatoes and put them in the crock pot, turn on the crock pot.
他妈妈给他留下了要做的事情清单：打扫房间，剥土豆并将它们放入锅中，打开锅。
But he kind of ignores the lists, he says.
但他说，他有点忽略了这些清单。
I'm more of a lazy, kind of, try to get away with things.
我比较懒，有点想逃避事情。
He's one of those undecided voters who's undecided because he doesn't follow politics.
他是那些犹豫不决的选民之一，他犹豫不决是因为他不关注政治。
But his mother and brother have very strong opinions about politics.
但他的母亲和兄弟对政治有非常强烈的看法。
They spend hours on the phone debating, tossing around phrases like up-armored humvees, and intercontinental ballistic missile shields, and Donnie Rumsfeld.
他们花了几个小时在电话里争论，讨论诸如装甲悍马、洲际弹道导弹防御系统和唐尼·拉姆斯菲尔德之类的词语。
It's a little like those Sunday morning politics shows.
这有点像周日早上的政治节目。
I heard Kerry say-- and I thought this was a terrible thing to say-- he's going to pull all the troops out within three months of him being elected.
我听到克里说——我认为这是一件可怕的事情——他将在当选后三个月内撤出所有军队。
He didn't say that.
他没有这么说。
He said that he anticipated that they could begin the process.
他说他预计他们可以开始这个过程。
And so, whenever the terrorists that are over there hear that, they think, oh, all we have to do is hang in here for six more months and we're home free.
因此，每当那边的恐怖分子听到这个消息时，他们就会想，哦，我们所要做的就是在这里再坚持六个月，然后我们就可以回家了。
Well, it's worth noting that the Iraqis--
嗯，值得注意的是，伊拉克人——
Don't get TV?
不看电视？
David Chasteen Actually they do get TV.
大卫·查斯丁 事实上他们确实有电视。
It's shocking.
太令人震惊了。
Yeah, that's the problem.
是的，这就是问题所在。
So I think that that just makes them think, we can hang in there, and I feel like he put soldiers' lives in danger saying that.
所以我认为这只会让他们认为，我们可以坚持下去，我觉得他说这句话是把士兵的生命置于危险之中。
Overall, the Chasteens are a pretty typical Midwestern, Bible Belt family.
总体而言，查斯丁家族是一个非常典型的中西部圣经带家庭。
Monica worked incredibly hard and raised her three sons in a comfortable, one-story house, with a big backyard bordered by a cornfield and a flag out front.
莫妮卡非常努力地工作，在一栋舒适的单层房子里抚养她的三个儿子，房子有一个大后院，周围是一片玉米地，前面有一面旗帜。
They all went to the Nazarene church.
他们都去了拿撒勒教堂。
David, the oldest, is 26 now.
大卫是最大的，现在 26 岁了。
As a kid, all of his friends were from church.
小时候，他所有的朋友都来自教堂。
He didn't listen to secular music or swear.
他不听世俗音乐，也不说脏话。
And like many people in his family, he thought joining the military was the right thing to do, the honorable thing to do.
和他家里的许多人一样，他认为参军是正确的事情，是光荣的事情。
Plus, his family didn't have money for him to go to college, and there aren't that many good jobs in Indiana.
另外，他的家人没有钱供他上大学，而且印第安纳州也没有那么多好工作。
And in 2000, he liked George Bush for president.
2000年，他支持乔治·布什竞选总统。
He gave money to the campaign, and he put a bumper sticker on his car.
他为竞选活动捐款，并在自己的汽车保险杠上贴了一张贴纸。
He especially liked the idea of compassionate conservatism.
他特别喜欢富有同情心的保守主义的想法。
I remember the State of the Union after September 11, where Bush came out and said, we're going to do the hard right over the easy wrong.
我记得 9 月 11 日之后的国情咨文中，布什出来说，我们将采取严格的正确措施，而不是容易犯的错误。
And the hard right is we're going to send special forces guys into these holes where these Al Qaeda guys are hanging out.
极右派是我们将派遣特种部队人员进入这些基地组织成员出没的地方。
We're going to kill them.
我们要杀了他们。
And then we're going to double the size of the Peace Corps, and we're going to send young Americans out into the Middle East to demonstrate to the rest of the world that we're the good guys, and that we're here to help, and that we're not here to invade, we just want to make the world a better place.
然后我们将把和平队的规模扩大一倍，我们将派遣年轻的美国人前往中东，向世界其他地方证明我们是好人，我们是来提供帮助的，我们不是来侵略的，我们只是想让世界变得更美好。
And I remember, at that moment, I was talking to my wife about it, and I'm like, right there, that's the President Bush that I voted for.
我记得，在那一刻，我正在和我的妻子谈论这件事，我当时想，那就是我投票支持的布什总统。
That's a brilliant idea.
这是一个绝妙的主意。
And in that moment I was so glad that I had voted for him.
那一刻我很高兴我投票给了他。
But then the president started talking about invading Iraq, which David thought was, and I quote here, "insane." He thought they should stay focused on Al Qaeda in Afghanistan.
但随后总统开始谈论入侵伊拉克，大卫认为这是“疯狂的”，我在这里引用。他认为他们应该继续关注阿富汗的基地组织。
David was in the Third Infantry division, which would be the first to invade Iraq.
大卫所在的第三步兵师将是第一个入侵伊拉克的部队。
He was a specialist in weapons of mass destruction.
他是大规模杀伤性武器方面的专家。
He saw the official intelligence on those weapons.
他看到了关于这些武器的官方情报。
So I start looking at the intelligence, which comes from the CIA and the DIA.
所以我开始研究来自中央情报局和国防情报局的情报。
And the analysis all said the same thing, which is, we're pretty sure they have chemical weapons, but we're real sure they're not a threat to the United States.
分析都说了同一件事，那就是，我们非常确定他们拥有化学武器，但我们确实确定它们不会对美国构成威胁。
Basically, the argument was Saddam Hussein is a little goofy in the gills, but he's a rational actor.
基本上，争论的焦点是萨达姆·侯赛因有点傻，但他是一个理性的演员。
We know what he wants.
我们知道他想要什么。
And what he wants is to stay in power.
他想要的是继续掌权。
Nothing would guarantee him losing control of his country faster than using chemical weapons against the United States, or helping a third party use chemical weapons against the United States.
没有什么比对美国使用化学武器或帮助第三方对美国使用化学武器更能让他更快地失去对自己国家的控制了。
There's a long way between that and a mushroom cloud in Iowa, which was always the implication of the Bush administration.
这与布什政府一直暗示的爱荷华州的蘑菇云之间还有很长的路要走。
I remember sitting on the border of Kuwait, jokingly telling my commanding officer the day before the invasion, I'm still holding out for a diplomatic solution.
我记得在入侵前一天，我坐在科威特边境，开玩笑地告诉我的指挥官，我仍然坚持寻求外交解决方案。
He met CIA officers who told him they'd been pulled off looking for Al Qaeda to come to Iraq.
他遇到了中央情报局官员，他们告诉他，他们已经停止寻找基地组织来到伊拉克。
He saw Iraqi kids whose legs had been blown off.
他看到腿被炸断的伊拉克孩子。
And he saw the Peace Corps' budget cut, rather than doubled, as President Bush had promised.
他看到和平队的预算被削减，而不是像布什总统所承诺的那样增加一倍。
The problem is that on almost every other issue but Iraq-- taxes, abortion, the role of government in general-- David disagrees with John Kerry.
问题是，在除伊拉克之外的几乎所有其他问题上——税收、堕胎、政府的总体作用——大卫都不同意约翰·克里的观点。
But he's planning on voting for him anyway.
但无论如何，他还是打算投票给他。
I want to vote for Bush so bad.
我非常想投票给布什。
I want to vote for Bush the candidate.
我想投票给布什这位候选人。
But he's just a completely different president than he was in 2000, than the guy that I voted for originally.
但与 2000 年相比，他与我最初投票支持的总统完全不同。
That's about as pro-Kerry as it gets in Matthew's house.
这几乎是马修家里最支持克里的说法。
In the other corner, in the red trunks, is their mom, Monica, a tiny, attractive woman with long blond hair.
在另一个角落里，穿着红色内裤的是他们的妈妈莫妮卡，一个身材娇小、魅力十足、留着金色长发的女人。
She's on the official presidential prayer team, which means she gets notices through church or the internet to pray for the president's health and safety, and that he will be surrounded by wise counselors.
她是官方总统祈祷小组的成员，这意味着她通过教堂或互联网收到为总统的健康和安全祈祷的通知，并且他将被明智的顾问包围。
She doesn't know yet when she'll be deployed to Iraq next year, but she's also really disturbed by the war, not so much why we attacked in the first place, but how it's been managed: on the cheap, with bad planning, too few supplies.
她还不知道明年什么时候会被部署到伊拉克，但她也对战争感到非常不安，不是我们一开始发动袭击的原因，而是战争的管理方式：成本低廉，计划不周，补给太少。
She's outraged by this story she heard during her training about medical people over there, people like her, who had to choose to let someone die because they didn't have enough IV fluid.
她对在培训期间听到的关于那里的医务人员的故事感到愤怒，像她这样的人，因为没有足够的静脉输液而不得不选择让某人死去。
But she doesn't wholly blame the president for all that.
但她并不将这一切完全归咎于总统。
She blames his advisers.
她责怪他的顾问。
She thinks Secretary Rumsfeld should be fired.
她认为拉姆斯菲尔德部长应该被解雇。
David's been lobbying her to consider Kerry, flooding her with emails, but she can't vote for Kerry, or for any pro-choice candidate, period.
大卫一直在游说她考虑克里，给她发了大量电子邮件，但她不能投票给克里，也不能投票给任何支持堕胎的候选人。
And she actually thinks David is the one who might reconsider.
她实际上认为大卫可能会重新考虑。
I want to budge.
我想让步。
I want to budge so badly.
我非常想让步。
But you know.
但你知道。
Yeah, it'll be David.
是的，那就是大卫。
For one thing, his mother's praying for him, that the Lord will give him wisdom.
一方面，他的母亲正在为他祈祷，祈求主赐予他智慧。
Well, I think your prayers have been answered.
好吧，我想你的祈祷已经得到了回应。
And then there's Matthew, a sweet, dreamy kid, with huge brown eyes, who's afraid to be home alone at night on his quiet country street, and who loves animals.
还有马修，一个可爱、爱做梦的孩子，有一双棕色的大眼睛，害怕晚上独自一人呆在安静的乡村街道上，而且喜欢动物。
Daisy.
雏菊。
Sarah Koenig A friend's dog.
莎拉·科尼格 (Sarah Koenig) 朋友的狗。
Anyhow, this is the same Matthew who sleeps with a machete by his side for protection, and wants to go fight in Iraq someday as a Navy SEAL.
不管怎样，这就是马修，他睡觉时身边都带着一把砍刀以求保护，并希望有一天能以海豹突击队的身份去伊拉克作战。
When it comes to this year's election, Matthew is so new to it all, when I ask him about the political parties, he kind of gets them backwards.
谈到今年的选举，马修对这一切都很陌生，当我向他询问政党的情况时，他有点倒退了。
But what's interesting is that even someone as politically unplugged as him is getting information, not always perfectly, but still, it's trickling in.
但有趣的是，即使是像他这样不参与政治的人也能获取信息，虽然并不总是完美，但仍然在源源不断地流入。
So he doesn't know exactly how a bill becomes a law, but he knows George Bush's spotty National Guard record.
所以他并不确切地知道法案如何成为法律，但他知道乔治·布什在国民警卫队中参差不齐的记录。
And he's not quite sure what the president does for a living, but he knows that Kerry served in Vietnam, and that he protested afterward.
他不太清楚总统以什么为生，但他知道克里曾在越南服役，后来他提出了抗议。
I don't think it's right just to vote out a president just because, you know, things aren't going our way really.
我认为仅仅因为事情没有按照我们的意愿发展就投票罢免总统是不对的。
I think he deserves longer than four years to kind of get what he needs to get done.
我认为他应该有超过四年的时间来完成他需要完成的事情。
But then again, that might be a huge mistake.
但话又说回来，这可能是一个巨大的错误。
He's anti-abortion, he doesn't like the Patriot Act, but mainly, he wants to vote for the man he likes better, the one who's just a better, smarter person.
他反对堕胎，他不喜欢《爱国者法案》，但主要的是，他想投票给他更喜欢的人，一个更好、更聪明的人。
And his mom and David haven't been exactly helpful as he tries to figure out which one that is.
当他试图弄清楚那是哪一个时，他的妈妈和大卫并没有提供任何帮助。
They lay out the facts in the best way they can to make whatever they want you to be convinced of sound very good, and everything else just sound ridiculous.
他们以最好的方式阐述事实，让他们想让你相信的一切听起来都很好，而其他一切听起来都很荒谬。
So what's an issue where they've done that for you?
那么他们为你这样做有什么问题吗？
Well, one thing, and I'm still not sure, is Dave feeds me a good story about John Kerry's war record.
好吧，有一件事，我仍然不确定，戴夫给我讲了一个关于约翰·克里战争记录的好故事。
And from what I've seen on TV, what he said was about right.
从我在电视上看到的情况来看，他说的是对的。
And then I mention it to Mom, and Mom says, oh, he only served a month.
然后我向妈妈提起这件事，妈妈说，哦，他只服刑一个月。
And he killed women and children, and he ratted out all of his comrades.
他杀害了妇女和儿童，并出卖了所有的战友。
And, you know, they'll argue and say, you're wrong, you're wrong, you're stupid, you're stupid, or something like that.
而且，你知道，他们会争辩说，你错了，你错了，你很蠢，你很蠢，或者类似的话。
And then, all right, I'm going to bed, I love you, good night.
然后，好吧，我要睡觉了，我爱你，晚安。
And they hang up.
然后他们就挂断了。
And I just kind of listen.
我只是听着。
Good evening from the University of Miami Convocation Center in Coral Gables, Florida.
佛罗里达州科勒尔盖布尔斯迈阿密大学会议中心晚上好。
They're on, Mom.
他们开始了，妈妈。
Jim Lehrer --to the first of the 2004 presidential debates.
吉姆·莱勒（Jim Lehrer）——参加 2004 年总统辩论的第一场辩论。
All of us sat on the sofa watching.
我们大家都坐在沙发上观看。
Monica agreed with a lot of things Kerry said about the war, but disagreed with other things.
莫妮卡同意克里关于战争的很多观点，但不同意其他观点。
When you know something's going wrong, you make it right.
当你知道出了问题时，你就会纠正它。
That's what I learned in Vietnam.
这就是我在越南学到的东西。
And I'm going to lead those troops to victory.
我将带领这些部队走向胜利。
You know, we didn't have a victory in Vietnam, and I really think that Kerry would end this war the same way Vietnam was ended, which Vietnam was the only war we've lost.
你知道，我们在越南没有取得胜利，我真的认为克里会像结束越南一样结束这场战争，越南是我们唯一输掉的战争。
So he may get us out, but I don't think he'll get us out victoriously.
所以他可能会把我们带出去，但我认为他不会让我们胜利地出去。
Matthew was completely silent during the debate.
马修在辩论中完全保持沉默。
I thought he wasn't paying much attention.
我以为他没有太注意。
At one point, he wrapped himself in a comforter and put on a winter hat with ear flaps, and I was sure he was going to fall asleep.
有一次，他把自己裹在被子里，戴上一顶带耳罩的冬帽，我确信他快要睡着了。
But when it was over, it was clear he'd been listening closely.
但当一切结束时，很明显他一直在仔细听。
I was really impressed by Kerry through the whole thing.
整个事情给我留下了深刻的印象。
I like the fact that he had mentioned something about trying to build the special forces, kind of trying to change our tactics on how we're fighting these people.
我喜欢他提到的关于尝试建立特种部队的事情，尝试改变我们与这些人作战的策略。
And Bush just kind of sounded like an idiot, I thought, most of the time, just stuttering and he kept repeating himself.
我想，布什听起来有点像个白痴，大多数时候只是结巴，而且他一直在重复自己的话。
Kerry seems like he was a lot more competent, a lot sharper.
克里看起来更有能力，也更敏锐。
I just liked him a lot more, just from listening to him talk.
我只是因为听他说话而更喜欢他了。
Did you get bored sometimes?
你有时感到无聊吗？
Matthew Chasteen Yeah, I got real bored when I was listening to Bush.
马修·查斯丁 是的，当我听布什讲话时我真的很无聊。
Really?
真的吗？
Really, like Kerry actually held your interest and Bush didn't?
真的，就像克里确实引起了你的兴趣而布什却没有一样？
Yeah.
是的。
I always played with the cats while Bush was talking.
布什讲话时我总是和猫一起玩耍。
Do you feel like if you end up going to Iraq, you'd feel safer and sort of in better hands if Kerry were president?
你是否觉得，如果你最终去伊拉克，如果克里担任总统，你会感到更安全，并受到更好的照顾？
Yeah.
是的。
Because I believe he said that he's in favor of sending more troops there, which means, the more troops we have the safer we are.
因为我相信他说他赞成向那里派遣更多的部队，这意味着我们的部队越多就越安全。
If I'm over there fighting, I'd definitely like to have better supplies and more guys watching my back.
如果我在那里战斗，我肯定希望有更好的补给和更多的人在我身后守护。
We called David, and he and his mom argued for nearly an hour about the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty, about whether Kerry could pay for his proposals.
我们打电话给大卫，他和他的妈妈就《禁止核试验条约》、克里是否可以支付他的提议争论了近一个小时。
Monica asked David if we would lose Iraq the same way we lost Vietnam if Kerry became president.
莫妮卡问大卫，如果克里当选总统，我们是否会失去伊拉克，就像我们失去越南一样。
David told her we'd already lost Iraq.
大卫告诉她我们已经失去了伊拉克。
At the end of the night, though, David was so happy with Kerry's performance that he said, for the first time, he could vote for him with confidence.
不过，当晚结束时，大卫对克里的表现非常满意，他说，这是他第一次可以充满信心地投票给他。
Matthew was for Kerry, too, but he said he'd keep his mind open a crack for President Bush, and watch the next debates.
马修也支持克里，但他说他会为布什总统敞开心扉，并观看接下来的辩论。
Monica said she still supported the president, but in a wobbly sort of way.
莫妮卡说她仍然支持总统，但支持方式有些不稳定。
This week, nearly a month later, I talked to all three of them again.
近一个月后的本周，我再次与他们三个进行了交谈。
David was holding steady.
大卫保持着稳定。
Monica says she was considering not voting for president for the first time in her life.
莫妮卡说，她正在考虑一生中第一次不投票选举总统。
The sudden news of that 360-ton pile of explosives found missing in Iraq had especially ticked her off.
突然传来的伊拉克失踪的360吨炸药堆的消息让她特别恼火。
And Matthew?
还有马修？
In the space of one month, he'd gone from a Kerry leaner to an anti-Bush zealot.
在一个月的时间里，他从克里倾斜者变成了反布什狂热者。
He sent me an email-- more like a screed-- after he'd seen the Michael Moore movie.
在看完迈克尔·摩尔的电影后，他给我发了一封电子邮件——更像是一篇长文。
Here's part of what he wrote.
这是他写的部分内容。
"This man should never have taken a step in the White House in the first place, and it is our responsibility to make sure he doesn't ever take another step in it again after election night.
“这个人从一开始就不应该踏入白宫一步，我们有责任确保他在选举之夜之后不再踏出一步。
With all this swirling in my brain, I'm forced to second guess the wisdom of adding my name to a group of poor fools fighting this weird personal vendetta in the Middle East.
当这一切在我的脑海中盘旋时，我不得不重新思考将我的名字加入到一群在中东与这种奇怪的个人恩怨作斗争的可怜的傻瓜中是否明智。
What sort of punishments will be laid down if I take a stand?"
如果我表明立场，会受到什么样的惩罚？”
Sarah Koenig is one of the producers of our show.
莎拉·科尼格是我们节目的制片人之一。
Act Four, He's Got Legs.
第四幕，他有腿。
Now our preview of the coming ground war on Election Day.
现在我们预览一下选举日即将到来的地面战争。
We end today's program with someone trying to convince the unconvinced and get the convinced to the polls in Columbus, Ohio.
我们今天的节目结束时，有人试图说服那些不相信的人，并让他们相信俄亥俄州哥伦布市的民意调查。
Lisa Pollak has the story.
丽莎·波拉克讲述了这个故事。
Andy Mills is in his house, getting ready for his first day of door-to-door canvassing.
安迪·米尔斯正在他的家里，为他第一天的挨家挨户拉票做准备。
He's never done anything like this before, and he's a little nervous about it.
他以前从来没有做过这样的事，他对此有些紧张。
In his regular life, Andy is a college professor, used to speaking in front of audiences, never at a loss for words.
在日常生活中，安迪是一名大学教授，习惯在观众面前演讲，从不失言。
But he doesn't like selling things, or the idea of intruding on people at home, asking nosy questions.
但他不喜欢卖东西，也不喜欢打扰家里人、问八卦问题。
Luckily, MoveOn PAC, the anti-Bush group that Andy's canvassing for, has given him a script-- the rap, they call it-- to help him know what to say today.
幸运的是，安迪正在拉票的反布什组织 MoveOn PAC 给了他一个剧本——他们称之为说唱——来帮助他知道今天该说什么。
He's been practicing the rap all morning, playing both sides, alone in the kitchen.
他整个上午都在练习说唱，一边演奏一边演奏，独自一人在厨房里。
And before we leave, I make him do it for me without the script.
在我们离开之前，我让他在没有剧本的情况下为我做这件事。
OK, so I guess I'm supposed to knock on your door.
好吧，我想我应该去敲你的门。
And then, hi, is Lisa home?
然后，嗨，丽莎在家吗？
And then she'd say yes.
然后她就会说是的。
I'm Andrew Mills, and I live in the neighborhood, and I'm working on the upcoming election, and I wondered if you've decided who you're going to vote for for president?
我是安德鲁·米尔斯，我住在附近，我正在为即将到来的选举工作，我想知道你是否决定投票给谁当总统？
And they'll say, John Kerry.
他们会说，约翰·克里。
And I'll say, oh, that's great, that's great.
我会说，哦，那太好了，那太好了。
Well, I'm working with MoveOn PAC, and we're just collecting names and some contact information for Kerry voters for our Get Out the Vote campaign, I wondered if you would-- great, yeah, sure.
嗯，我正在与 MoveOn PAC 合作，我们只是为我们的“走出去投票”活动收集克里选民的姓名和一些联系信息，我想知道您是否愿意——太好了，是的，当然。
Going real well.
进展顺利。
Andy Mills It's going well.
安迪·米尔斯 进展顺利。
It's great.
这很棒。
In the kitchen it's fantastic.
在厨房里真是太棒了。
For voters who prefer the president, the rap is just a sentence, thanks, and have a nice day.
对于喜欢总统的选民来说，说唱只是一句话，谢谢，祝你有美好的一天。
And if they're undecided, well, the rap doesn't offer as much guidance here.
如果他们犹豫不决，那么说唱在这里并不能提供太多指导。
No talking points on the war, no arguments about health care, no secret formula for closing the deal.
没有关于战争的谈话要点，没有关于医疗保健的争论，没有达成交易的秘密公式。
Hadn't role played that as much as the easy one.
没有扮演过像简单角色那样多的角色。
But, so, have you decided who you're going to vote for for president?
但是，你决定投票给谁当总统了吗？
No, I haven't really made up my mind.
不，我还没有真正下定决心。
Well, can I ask you what issues are important to you in the election?
那么我能问一下您在选举中哪些问题对您来说很重要吗？
And I don't know really where to go from there.
我真的不知道从那里该去哪里。
We head to Andy's assigned precinct, only five minutes from his house, a leafy neighborhood near the Ohio State campus.
我们前往安迪指定的辖区，距离他的家只有五分钟路程，这是俄亥俄州立大学校园附近绿树成荫的社区。
There are more Buckeye football banners than either Kerry or Bush signs.
七叶树橄榄球横幅的数量比克里或布什的标志还要多。
Andy's anxious to talk to his first non-imaginary voter.
安迪急于与他的第一个非想象中的选民交谈。
Well, this one's 2286.
嗯，这个是2286。
Lisa Pollak This is easier said than done.
丽莎·波拉克（Lisa Pollak） 这说起来容易做起来难。
This one looks vacant.
这个看起来是空的
Yeah, I don't think anyone's living here.
是的，我想没有人住在这里。
As we continue down the block, it becomes clear that many of the people on the MoveOn list have in fact moved on.
当我们继续沿着街区走下去时，很明显，“搬迁”名单上的许多人实际上已经搬走了。
Hi, is Cindy here?
嗨，辛迪在吗？
Does she not live here anymore?
她不再住在这里了吗？
She moved on.
她继续前进。
OK, thanks.
好的，谢谢。
Is Kyle or Greg here?
凯尔或格雷格在吗？
No, do they not live here?
不，他们不住在这里吗？
OK, I just have an old voter registration list.
好的，我只有一份旧的选民登记名单。
Hey, hi.
嘿，嗨。
Hi, is Michael or Nathan here?
嗨，迈克尔或内森在吗？
They're not?
他们不是吗？
They don't live here anymore?
他们不再住在这里了吗？
At house after house, people come to the door.
一家又一家，人们纷纷找上门来。
Statistically speaking, some of them must be voters, yet Andy does nothing to plug his candidate, or even start a conversation.
从统计上看，其中一些人肯定是选民，但安迪没有做任何事来宣传他的候选人，甚至没有开始对话。
I'm doing some canvassing for the election, do you have a second to talk?
我正在为选举做一些拉票，你有时间谈谈吗？
Actually, I'm kind of in the middle of some homework.
事实上，我正在做一些家庭作业。
In the middle of some homework?
正在做一些家庭作业吗？
OK, no problem.
好的，没问题。
Thanks.
谢谢。
Bye.
再见。
I've got to respect that, being a professor.
作为一名教授，我必须尊重这一点。
Working on homework.
正在做作业。
Do you believe it?
你相信吗？
Andy Mills He didn't look like he was in the middle of working on homework.
安迪·米尔斯：他看起来不像是在做作业。
If waking up is working on homework, then maybe.
如果醒来正在做作业，那么也许吧。
Let me see what you're working on.
让我看看你在做什么。
No class.
没有课。
When he does meet Kerry voters, it's a love fest.
当他与克里选民见面时，那是一场爱情盛宴。
They sign the sheet pledging to vote for the senator, and they linger at the door with Andy, agreeing that Kerry won the debates, and that the war is a disaster, and Andy walks away thrilled, another one for his team.
他们签署了承诺投票给参议员的表格，并与安迪一起在门口徘徊，一致认为克里赢得了辩论，战争是一场灾难，安迪兴奋地走开，这对他的团队来说又是一场灾难。
With the Bush voters, it's not a love fest, but everyone's cordial.
对于布什选民来说，这不是一场爱情盛宴，但每个人都很亲切。
The biggest surprise, for me anyway, is our one undecided voter, a chatty guy named Joe, just out of college.
无论如何，对我来说，最大的惊喜是我们的一位犹豫不决的选民，一个名叫乔的健谈的家伙，刚刚大学毕业。
Before today, I thought this was the whole purpose of canvassing, to persuade voters who are still on the fence, but when I actually see it happen, I realize why it's not the point at all, why Andy's script doesn't even bother with talking points.
在今天之前，我认为这就是拉票的全部目的，说服仍然持观望态度的选民，但当我真正看到它发生时，我意识到为什么这根本不是重点，为什么安迪的剧本甚至不关心谈话要点。
While we're on the subject, I mean, you think back to like World War II, I mean, look at all those people in Germany, a lot of those people were-- not that it's happening here, but all that stuff can be going on, and we could be totally oblivious to it, because we're not informed, you know what I mean?
当我们谈论这个主题时，我的意思是，你回想一下第二次世界大战，我的意思是，看看德国的所有那些人，很多人——不是说它发生在这里，而是所有这些事情都可能发生，我们可能完全忽视它，因为我们不知情，你知道我的意思吗？
Andy talks to the guy, and talks to the guy, for almost 20 minutes.
安迪和那个人聊了又聊，聊了将近 20 分钟。
But Joe's such a ramble of random and conflicting opinions, I honestly believe no one could have swayed him.
但乔的观点如此随意且相互矛盾，我真的相信没有人能动摇他。
Later, an organizer tells me that this is exactly why the thousands of canvassers going out in the next few days aren't really trying to persuade.
后来，一位组织者告诉我，这正是为什么接下来几天出去的数千名游说者并不是真正试图说服的原因。
They're trying to rally the voters already on their side.
他们正试图团结已经站在他们一边的选民。
Simply making face-to-face contact with people can boost turnout on Election Day up to 12%.
仅仅与人们面对面接触就可以将选举日的投票率提高高达 12%。
Down the block, in a white duplex, we meet this woman.
在街区的一栋白色复式公寓里，我们遇到了这位女士。
She's 76 years old, tiny, with thin gray hair.
她76岁了，身材娇小，头发稀疏，灰白。
Mary, hi, I'm Andrew Mills.
玛丽，嗨，我是安德鲁·米尔斯。
I'm with MoveOn PAC.
我是 MoveOn PAC 的一员。
I wondered if you've decided who you're going to vote for in the election?
我想知道你是否已经决定在选举中投票给谁了？
Do you care to say?
你介意说吗？
Mmhmm.
嗯嗯。
Lisa Pollak Mary stays inside and presses her nose to the screen door while we talk.
我们说话时，丽莎·波拉克·玛丽呆在里面，把鼻子贴在纱门上。
She's not a ZZ Top fan, she says, but she's got nine kids, and some of them are.
她说，她不是 ZZ Top 的粉丝，但她有九个孩子，其中有些是。
You don't know think we have much choice?
你不知道我们有很多选择吗？
No. Andy Mills You wouldn't rather see John Kerry in office, rather than President Bush?
不。安迪·米尔斯（Andy Mills） 您宁愿看到约翰·克里（John Kerry）任职，也不愿看到布什总统任职？
No. Andy Mills It doesn't really matter that much, which one of them, to you?
不。安迪·米尔斯：对你来说，其中哪一个其实并不那么重要？
Like I said.
就像我说的。
Andy Mills OK.
安迪·米尔斯 好的。
And you've sort of made up your mind about that?
你已经下定决心了吗？
Oh yeah.
哦，是的。
Lisa Pollak At this point I can't help myself.
丽莎·波拉克（Lisa Pollak） 此时我无法自拔。
I know I'm supposed to keep my mouth shut, but I don't understand her vote.
我知道我应该闭嘴，但我不明白她的投票。
Have you been happy with the way things are going in the country?
您对这个国家的现状感到满意吗？
No. I don't think we've got any business in Iraq, and I don't believe in abortion, so, you know.
不，我认为我们在伊拉克没有任何业务，而且我不相信堕胎，所以，你知道。
I mean, that's my two main problems.
我的意思是，这是我的两个主要问题。
And so it's really split, because it's kind of like one guy--
所以它真的是分裂的，因为它有点像一个人——
Yeah, one's got us into war, and the other one's, you know, kill babies.
是的，一个让我们陷入战争，另一个，你知道，杀死婴儿。
I can't handle that.
我无法处理这个。
That's tough.
这很难。
That's tough to decide which one's more important.
很难决定哪个更重要。
I've gone out with other canvassers for this election, and each time I was struck by how inefficient it seemed, how few people you reach for all the hours you spend.
我曾与其他游说者一起参与这次选举，每次我都对它的效率如此低下、花费大量时间接触到的人如此之少感到震惊。
Today, Andy knocks on 60 doors, and talks to a grand total of 17 people, 10 for Kerry, four for Bush, one undecided, one who won't say, one ZZ Top.
今天，安迪敲开了 60 扇门，总共与 17 个人交谈，其中 10 个人支持克里，4 个人支持布什，1 个人尚未做出决定，1 个人不愿透露，1 个人是 ZZ Top。
In four hours, Andy didn't persuade anyone of anything.
四小时内，安迪没有说服任何人任何事情。
If anyone's been changed today, it seems to me, it's Andy.
如果说今天有谁改变了，在我看来，那就是安迪。
This morning, he was nervous, not just about knocking on doors, but about the election, what's going to happen if his guy doesn't win.
今天早上，他很紧张，不仅仅是因为敲门，而是因为选举，如果他的人没有获胜将会发生什么。
But now he sounds relaxed, energized, even inspired.
但现在他听起来很放松、充满活力，甚至充满了灵感。
He's standing in the cluttered living room of a Kerry supporter named Marlene, who's sitting in a bathrobe, surrounded by prescription bottles, not sure if she's healthy enough to get to the polls.
他站在克里支持者马琳 (Marlene) 杂乱的客厅里，马琳穿着浴袍，周围都是处方药瓶，不确定自己是否健康到可以去投票站。
Well, you know, I think it's going to come down, every vote in Ohio's going to count.
嗯，你知道，我认为它会下降，俄亥俄州的每一张选票都会起作用。
We can do it.
我们能做到。
I mean, it may be just a few hundred votes.
我的意思是，可能只有几百票。
Yeah, all pull together.
是的，大家齐心协力。
Andy Mills You know, if we all turn out for him.
安迪·米尔斯 你知道，如果我们都支持他的话。
It could be this neighborhood.
可能是这个街区。
It could be it's Columbus that's going to turn the election.
改变选举的可能是哥伦布。
Yeah.
是的。
So I'll tell you what, I may come by again just to make sure you got your absentee ballot, and if you didn't, we can arrange for someone to get you to the polls on Election Day if you need a lift.
所以我会告诉你，我可能会再次过来，只是为了确保你收到缺席选票，如果你没有，如果你需要搭便车，我们可以安排人在选举日送你去投票站。
You know, because I want to make sure you get your vote counted.
你知道，因为我想确保你的选票得到统计。
Andy's the first to admit he might not have much to show for the day.
安迪是第一个承认他今天可能没有什么可展示的人。
But after all the worrying about what's going to happen on Tuesday, it was a relief to get out and actually talk to people who'll be voting.
但在担心周二会发生什么之后，走出去与即将投票的人真正交谈是一种解脱。
The Kerry voters were reassuring.
克里的选民让人放心。
The Bush voters weren't demons.
布什选民不是恶魔。
The abstract, mean-spirited, frightening battle for the future of everything that we've been seeing on TV turned into the simplest, least threatening thing in the world: two people standing on a porch, talking things out.
我们在电视上看到的一切抽象、卑鄙、可怕的未来之战变成了世界上最简单、最不具威胁性的事情：两个人站在门廊上，谈论事情。
I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life.
我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。