274: Enemy Camp ‘04 - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #274 | October 8, 2004 274: Enemy Camp ‘04 Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 274 集 | 2004 年 10 月 8 日 274：敌营 '04 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass Here's the story the way we usually like it.
序言 艾拉·格拉斯 这是我们通常喜欢的故事。
There's this guy, and he's behind enemy lines.
有一个人，他在敌后。
Maybe he's dropped in there in the middle of the night, maybe he sneaks under barbed wire at the border, whatever.
也许他在半夜被扔到那里，也许他偷偷地从边境的铁丝网下面溜过去，等等。
He's there.
他就在那儿。
He's been there a while.
他已经在那里有一段时间了。
Months, years maybe.
也许是几个月，也许是几年。
He's in disguise, working on our behalf.
他乔装打扮，为我们工作。
Nobody suspects.
没有人怀疑。
No one can tell.
没有人能说清楚。
He looks and acts just like them.
他的外表和行为就像他们一样。
And then, living there in their midst for so long, speaking the language, eating their food, breathing their air, watching their TV shows, something happens.
然后，在他们中间生活了这么久，说他们的语言，吃他们的食物，呼吸他们的空气，看他们的电视节目，一些事情发生了。
He starts to change.
他开始改变。
He starts to become more like them.
他开始变得更像他们了。
And then, when it's time for him to strike, to launch his mission against them, he hesitates.
然后，当他该出击、向他们发起任务时，他却犹豫了。
He's not sure who he sympathizes with anymore.
他已经不确定自己到底同情谁了。
It's a very romantic idea, this particular vision of what it means to live inside the enemy camp.
这是一个非常浪漫的想法，这是对生活在敌营中意味着什么的特殊愿景。
That you lose your bearings and you would forget how to fight because some other impulse inside you would take over.
你失去了方向，你会忘记如何战斗，因为你内心的其他冲动会接管。
But sometimes this is actually how it happens.
但有时事情实际上就是这样发生的。
There are lots of ways that people get confused about who their enemy is and how to fight them.
人们对敌人是谁以及如何对抗他们感到困惑的方式有很多。
Today on our radio show we have that story happening to several different people in several different places in several different ways.
今天，在我们的广播节目中，我们看到这个故事以几种不同的方式发生在几个不同地方的几个不同的人身上。
True stories.
真实的故事。
WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life, distributed by Public Radio International.
WBEZ 芝加哥，这是《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program we choose some subject, bring you documentaries, interviews, short fiction, found tapes, found writing, anything we can think of on that subject.
在我们的节目中，我们每周都会选择一些主题，为您带来纪录片、访谈、短篇小说、找到的磁带、找到的写作，以及我们能想到的有关该主题的任何内容。
Today on our program, life behind enemy lines.
今天我们的节目是敌后生活。
Our program today in four acts.
我们今天的节目分为四幕。
Act one, Our Own Worst Enemy?
第一幕，我们自己最大的敌人？
In that act, even senior administration officials like Colin Powell now admit that the insurgency in Iraq is getting stronger.
在这一法案中，甚至像科林·鲍威尔这样的高级政府官员现在也承认伊拉克的叛乱正在变得更加强大。
We get one of the architects of the president's war in Iraq, Richard Perle, to answer the question, is it our own fault that things are going so badly in Iraq.
我们请总统伊拉克战争的策划者之一理查德·珀尔来回答这个问题：伊拉克局势如此糟糕，是我们自己的错吗？
Act two, Confession.
第二幕，忏悔。
In that act, the true story of a fixer for the Catholic Church and how he came to sympathize with people who he was sent by the church to deceive.
在那一幕中，讲述了一个天主教堂操纵者的真实故事，以及他如何同情那些被教会派来欺骗的人。
Act three, Blood Agent.
第三幕，血液特工。
How microscopic beings inside you and me can control our thoughts and minds, no kidding.
你我体内的微观生物如何控制我们的思想和思想，这不是开玩笑。
Act four, sleeping with the enemy.
第四幕，与敌人同眠。
In which we ask the question, whose side is your girlfriend on, anyway?
我们问一个问题，你的女朋友到底站在哪一边？
Whose?
谁？
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Hi.
你好。
James Fallows Greetings.
詹姆斯·法洛斯问候。
Think we met once in the distant past.
想想我们在遥远的过去见过一次。
Yeah, we did.
是的，我们做到了。
Hi.
你好。
Ira Glass So Richard Perle and James Fellows.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）、理查德·珀尔（Richard Perle）和詹姆斯·费洛斯（James Fellows）。
The question that we wanted to talk to the two of you about it is, once we decided to go to war, did the administration do a competent job in planning and executing it?
我们想和你们两位讨论的问题是，一旦我们决定发动战争，政府在计划和执行方面是否做得很好？
Basically, how good are they at their jobs at conducting the war on terror.
基本上，他们在反恐战争方面的表现如何。
And there's a whole list of now familiar charges.
还有一整套现在熟悉的指控。
Inadequate planning for post-war Iraq, not having enough troops to control the country after the war, the war getting worse each month.
伊拉克战后规划不充分，战后没有足够的军队控制国家，战事每个月都在恶化。
Richard Perle, are they doing a good job?
理查德·珀尔，他们做得好吗？
I think the administration is doing about as good a job as they can do under the circumstances.
我认为政府在这种情况下已经尽力做好了工作。
Which is not to say it's a great job.
这并不是说这是一份很棒的工作。
I don't think it is.
我不认为是这样。
I think a lot of mistakes have been made.
我认为已经犯了很多错误。
And we learn with every mistake.
我们从每一次错误中吸取教训。
Are there certain mistakes that you think were avoidable?
您认为有哪些错误是可以避免的吗？
Well, the single largest mistake in my view was in not going into Iraq with a significant number of Iraqis at our side.
嗯，在我看来，最大的错误就是没有在我们身边有大量伊拉克人的情况下进入伊拉克。
In not handing authority over more or less immediately after the fall of Baghdad.
巴格达陷落后没有立即移交权力。
You criticize the planning.
你批评这个计划。
In fact, there was extensive planning.
事实上，这是有广泛计划的。
It wasn't always right.
这并不总是正确的。
But I don't know anyone who, in a situation largely without precedent, can be expected to get everything right.
但我不知道有谁在这种几乎没有先例的情况下可以指望一切顺利。
James Fallows, what's your take on this?
詹姆斯·法洛斯，你对此有何看法？
Well I have to take issue with-- I agree with the assessment that things have not gone very well.
好吧，我必须提出异议——我同意事情进展不顺利的评估。
On the idea that this was sort of beyond anyone's calculation, I mean, with respect, it's just not true.
关于这有点超出任何人的计算的想法，我的意思是，恕我直言，这不是真的。
Most of the expert branches of the government were saying, post-conquest order is the first order of priority.
政府的大多数专家部门都说，征服后的秩序是第一要务。
You have to make sure that Iraqis can see that there is stability now that there's a new sheriff in town.
你必须确保伊拉克人能够看到，既然城里有了新的治安官，局势就稳定了。
There has to be a sense of order.
一定要有秩序感。
And so this was clearly foreseen and just dismissed.
所以这是明显预见到的，只是被驳回了。
And just to be clear, James Fallows, you're saying in your reporting what you found is that the administration was warned specifically about this kind of looting and this kind of disorder starting, and yet didn't get control of the capital and didn't get control of the country.
需要明确的是，詹姆斯·法洛斯，你在报告中说你发现的是，政府收到了关于这种抢劫和这种骚乱开始的特别警告，但没有控制首都，也没有控制国家。
I'm saying specifically, and anybody who doubts can go to the Army War College website and check these studies, that it was warned that the thing to start doing on the first day, and certainly in the first three days and the first week, was to guarantee public order.
我具体说的是，任何有疑问的人都可以去陆军战争学院网站查看这些研究，有人警告说，从第一天开始做的事情，当然是前三天和第一周，就是保证公共秩序。
Because the thing that was sure to happen when a repressive regime was unleashed was disorder, and disorder in the early period could be profoundly destabilizing.
因为当一个专制政权被释放时，必然会发生混乱，而早期的混乱可能会严重破坏稳定。
And this simply was ignored.
而这一点就被忽略了。
And it wasn't from some pinko group, it was the US Army War College.
它不是来自某个 Pinko 组织，而是美国陆军战争学院。
I'm sorry, it is a big leap from saying that some scholars-- and I don't know who they were-- at the Army War College or at National Defense University or somewhere else prepared a report, and the fact that they prepared a report and there were problems afterward proves that we ignored sensible planning.
抱歉，说陆军战争学院、国防大学或其他地方的一些学者——我不知道他们是谁——准备了一份报告，而他们准备了一份报告，后来出现了问题，这证明我们忽视了明智的计划，这是一个很大的飞跃。
Let me give you two examples of more sort of direct orders.
让我给你举两个更多直接订单的例子。
It is now well known that the Army and its Chief of Staff, Eric Shinseki, were saying, you need more people to do this.
现在众所周知，陆军及其参谋长埃里克·新关（Eric Shinseki）表示，你需要更多的人来做到这一点。
You need them to secure the borders.
你需要他们来保护边境。
You need them to patrol Baghdad, et cetera.
你需要他们在巴格达巡逻等等。
That was deliberately, and as you'll recall very high-handedly, rejected by Paul Wolfowitz and Donald Rumsfeld.
这是保罗·沃尔福威茨和唐纳德·拉姆斯菲尔德故意拒绝的，你会记得非常高压。
I remember what General Shinseki was saying.
我记得新关将军说过的话。
And what he was saying, he was talking first of all about the invasion force.
而他所说的，首先是在谈论入侵部队。
With respect, that's not correct.
恕我直言，这是不正确的。
Shinseki was saying you needed them for security after the fall of Baghdad.
新关说巴格达陷落后你需要它们来保证安全。
Shinseki's experience had been in Kosovo and the Balkans, and he said he'd been in charge of peacekeeping there.
新关的经历是在科索沃和巴尔干地区，他说他曾负责那里的维和行动。
And he said based on his rules of thumb, you needed one per x thousand of population.
他说，根据他的经验法则，每千人需要一个。
I now forget the ratio.
我现在忘记了比例。
But it would have led to about twice as many troops as the US went in with.
但这将导致美国投入的军队数量大约是美国的两倍。
Well I certainly agree that we could have done a much better job of establishing order at the beginning.
嗯，我当然同意，我们可以在一开始就建立秩序做得更好。
I believe that the way to do that was not by having twice as many Americans on the ground, but by having Iraqis who understood the situation a great deal better than we did.
我认为，做到这一点的方法不是让驻扎在当地的美国人数量是我们的两倍，而是让伊拉克人比我们更了解局势。
But in a sense, I've got to say as a voter, to me it kind of doesn't matter if it should have been Iraqi forces or it should have been more American forces.
但从某种意义上说，作为一名选民，我必须说，对我来说，应该是伊拉克军队还是更多的美国军队并不重要。
I feel like all I see is that you both are saying we needed more troops on the ground to make the country more secure at the beginning, and it was one of the most important things that we could do.
我觉得我所看到的只是你们俩都说我们需要更多的地面部队来让国家从一开始就更加安全，这是我们能做的最重要的事情之一。
And that's led to that kind of problems that we're having now, and they get worse and worse and worse.
这导致了我们现在遇到的问题，而且问题变得越来越严重。
Well no, you're going way beyond anything I said.
好吧，不，你已经超出了我所说的范围。
OK, how am I going beyond?
好吧，我该如何超越？
Richard Perle Well first of all, I didn't say we needed more troops.
理查德·珀尔：首先，我并没有说我们需要更多的军队。
We needed different troops.
我们需要不同的军队。
If we'd had the 10,000 Iraqis who we should have gone in with, I think we would have been in much better shape.
如果我们有 10,000 名伊拉克人，我认为我们的状况会好得多。
And in particular, I think the looting and the early signs of disintegration-- I think our military commanders misunderstood the implications of the looting.
特别是，我认为抢劫和瓦解的早期迹象——我认为我们的军事指挥官误解了抢劫的含义。
And if you're unhappy with the way that mission was handled, you should be talking to the battlefield commander.
如果你对任务的处理方式不满意，你应该与战场指挥官交谈。
From the public's point of view, it doesn't really matter at what stage the breakdown was.
从公众的角度来看，崩溃发生在哪个阶段并不重要。
We are agreeing that something seriously has gone wrong, and do we blame the military or do we blame the civilian leaders of the military?
我们一致认为出现了严重问题，我们应该责怪军队还是责怪军队的文职领导人？
Well, you can assign responsibility but I wouldn't call it blame.
好吧，你可以分配责任，但我不会称之为责备。
Because this is something we do every day.
因为这是我们每天都在做的事情。
We're learning.
我们正在学习。
You say that we don't do this every day.
你说我们不是每天都这样做。
In fact, the US has carried out a lot of occupations from the Philippines onward, and none of them has gone as badly as this.
事实上，从菲律宾开始，美国已经进行了很多占领，而且没有一次像这次这样严重。
Preparing for this sort of thing would have meant it was taken more time, either to bring more American troops there or to get a bigger alliance.
为这种事情做准备意味着需要更多的时间，要么向那里派遣更多的美国军队，要么建立更大的联盟。
Whether European, whether Arab, or whatever.
无论是欧洲人、阿拉伯人还是其他什么。
And so all of these warnings were at odds with the idea of getting the war going sooner rather than later.
因此，所有这些警告都与尽早让战争进行的想法相矛盾。
Let's move on to a different subject.
让我们转向另一个主题。
One thing that's come up in the two debates is this question of letting Osama bin Laden get away at Tora Bora.
这两场辩论中出现的一件事是让奥萨马·本·拉登在托拉博拉逃脱的问题。
It's been brought up in both of the debates so far.
到目前为止，两次辩论都提到了这一点。
Neither the president nor the vice president actually responded directly to the charge.
总统和副总统实际上都没有直接回应这一指控。
It seems really damning.
看来真的是太可恶了。
The suggestion somehow seems to be that the president of the United States or the vice president should have been commanding US forces in Afghanistan at a level of detail that is absurd.
不知何故，这个建议似乎是美国总统或副总统应该以荒谬的细节程度指挥驻阿富汗美军。
The troops in the field who were responsible for handling the situation were not taking direct orders from the president of the United States.
负责处理局势的现场部队并没有接受美国总统的直接命令。
I think this is a slight mischaracterization of what the critique is.
我认为这是对批评内容的轻微误解。
It's not that Bush or Cheney should have been picking targets the way Lyndon Johnson did.
布什或切尼不应该像林登·约翰逊那样选择目标。
Instead it's two fundamental points.
相反，这是两个基本点。
One is that the assignment for the crucial part of this pincer movement was given on the one hand to the Afghan quote, "warlords", unquote on the other side of the border to the Pakistanis, as opposed to being under direct control.
其中之一是，这一夹击运动的关键部分的任务一方面交给了阿富汗人“军阀”，而另一边则交给了巴基斯坦人，而不是直接控制。
There also was clearly a shift in the center of gravity of attention within the Pentagon by early 2002, just around the time of Tora Bora, towards Iraq and away from Afghanistan.
到 2002 年初，也就是托拉博拉事件前后，五角大楼内部的注意力中心也发生了明显的转变，从阿富汗转向了伊拉克。
Richard Perle?
理查德·珀尔？
Richard Perle I think it's easy to second guess what went wrong at Tora Bora.
理查德·珀尔（Richard Perle） 我认为很容易再次猜测托拉博拉岛出了什么问题。
The judgment was made that certain parts of that military operation were best handled by Afghans.
据判断，军事行动的某些部分最好由阿富汗人来处理。
I can see reasons why people would come to that conclusion.
我可以理解人们得出这个结论的原因。
It may not have been the right conclusion, I don't know.
我不知道这可能不是正确的结论。
But it certainly was not the case that either the president was making the decision at that tactical level, nor I believe is it fair to say that that would have been handled differently if we had not been at that point planning for the operations in Iraq.
但情况肯定不是总统在战术层面做出的决定，我也不认为公平地说，如果我们当时没有计划在伊拉克的行动，处理方式就会有所不同。
Richard Perle, you've been at the forefront of saying that we need to turn over Iraq to the Iraqis, and the faster we do it the better off everybody's going to be, and the more of a success this is going to be.
理查德·珀尔（Richard Perle），你一直在最前沿说我们需要将伊拉克移交给伊拉克人，我们做得越快，每个人都会过得更好，而且这会取得更大的成功。
I'd like to talk to you just about whether you're concerned at the speed at which that's happened.
我想和你谈谈你是否担心这种情况发生的速度。
Back in July, there was a report that the US military put out, just explaining the progress in training Iraqi forces.
早在7月份，美军就曾发布过一份报告，只是解释了伊拉克军队训练的进展情况。
And a mainstream bi-partisan think tank, the Center for Strategic and International Studies, put out a report.
主流两党智库战略与国际研究中心也发布了一份报告。
Anthony Cordesman was the author.
安东尼·科德斯曼是作者。
And it said the US failed to treat the Iraqis as partners in the counterinsurgency effort until April 2004, nearly a year after the fall of Saddam Hussein and 2/3 of a year after major insurgency problems began to emerge.
报告称，直到2004年4月，即萨达姆·侯赛因倒台近一年后，以及重大叛乱问题开始出现后的2/3，美国才将伊拉克人视为反叛乱行动的合作伙伴。
The report reveals massive shortfalls in weapons, vehicles, communications, and body armor.
报告揭示了武器、车辆、通讯和防弹衣的巨大短缺。
Iraqi forces have about 40% of their minimum weapons needs, about 25% of the necessary body armor.
伊拉克军队拥有约 40% 的最低武器需求，约 25% 的必要防弹衣。
As of July 13th, the US had spent only $220 million of the $2.9 billion, that is $220 million of the $2.9 billion, dedicated to the Iraqi security forces.
截至7月13日，美国仅花费了29亿美元中的2.2亿美元，即29亿美元中的2.2亿美元专门用于伊拉克安全部队。
No single mission is more important than security and no Iraqi popular desire is clearer than that this mission be done by Iraqis.
没有哪个任务比安全更重要，没有哪个伊拉克民众的愿望比由伊拉克人来完成这一任务更明确。
The US has been guilty of a gross military, administrative, and moral failure.
美国在军事、行政和道义上都犯下了严重的失败。
Do you agree with that?
你同意吗？
I do agree with that, yes.
我确实同意这一点，是的。
I do agree with that.
我确实同意这一点。
Now, having said that, when you look at the source of some of the difficulties, it's pretty appalling.
话虽如此，当你审视一些困难的根源时，你会发现这是相当可怕的。
For example, efforts to get equipment into the hands of the Iraqi security forces were frequently frustrated by the impossible procurement procedures that are written into law within the US government.
例如，将设备交到伊拉克安全部队手中的努力经常因美国政府内部写入法律的不可能的采购程序而受挫。
And is this something that you think that the administration, if it had decided to yell and scream about a little bit more and used the force of the power of the presidency more, could have done something about?
您是否认为政府如果决定更多地大喊大叫并更多地利用总统权力的力量，可以采取一些措施吗？
Well, Don Rumsfeld, the Secretary of Defense, went to Congress and he asked for some unencumbered funds so that he would have the flexibility to do that sort of thing, and it was turned down.
国防部长唐·拉姆斯菲尔德 (Don Rumsfeld) 前往国会，要求提供一些不受限制的资金，以便他能够灵活地做这类事情，但遭到拒绝。
But that's an entirely Republican Congress and Senate.
但这是完全共和党的国会和参议院。
Well unfortunately, they're not in that kind of complete control.
不幸的是，他们无法完全控制。
Richard Perle, clearly you think that a lot of things have gone wrong.
理查德·珀尔，显然你认为很多事情都出了问题。
Do you think people should have been fired?
你认为人们应该被解雇吗？
Oh, I think there are people who should have, yes.
哦，我认为有些人应该这样做，是的。
But we never fire anybody in this government.
但我们从未解雇本届政府中的任何人。
Never.
绝不。
Actually, they tend to get promoted.
事实上，他们往往会得到晋升。
James Fallows.
詹姆斯·法洛斯.
James Fallows Well, you would think there would be someone who would be publicly held to some kind of account for this.
詹姆斯·法洛斯：好吧，你可能会认为有人会因此而被公开追究某种责任。
Clearly political decisions about the size, the timing, and the makeup of this invasion force have had rippling effects we're feeling to this day.
显然，关于这支入侵部队的规模、时间和构成的政治决定已经产生了连锁反应，我们至今仍能感受到。
And political leaders are usually held accountable for the effects of their decision.
政治领导人通常要对其决策的影响负责。
James Fallows, you've written about national security professionals, most of them Republicans who you've talked to over the course of two years.
詹姆斯·法洛斯（James Fallows），您写过有关国家安全专业人士的文章，其中大多数是您在两年内与您交谈过的共和党人。
I'm just going to read from one of your articles.
我只是要读你的一篇文章。
You say, let me tell you my gut feeling, a senior figure at one of America's military-sponsored think tanks told me recently.
你说，让我告诉你我的直觉，美国军方资助的智库之一的一位高级人士最近告诉我。
In my view, we are much, much worse off now than when we went into Iraq.
在我看来，我们现在的情况比我们进入伊拉克时要糟糕得多。
That is not a partisan position.
这不是党派立场。
I voted for these guys, but I think they're incompetent, and I have a very close perspective on what's happening.
我投票给了这些人，但我认为他们无能，而且我对正在发生的事情有非常密切的看法。
Certainly in the long run we've harmed ourselves.
当然，从长远来看，我们伤害了自己。
We are playing to the enemy's political advantage.
我们正在利用敌人的政治优势。
Whatever tactical victories we may gain along the way, this may prove to be a strategic blunder.
无论我们在此过程中取得什么样的战术胜利，这都可能被证明是一个战略错误。
Richard Perle, what's your reaction to that?
理查德·珀尔，你对此有何反应？
I don't agree with it.
我不同意。
I don't know who said it, but I certainly don't agree with it.
我不知道是谁说的，但我当然不同意。
I don't have any evidence that supports that.
我没有任何证据支持这一点。
I know it is commonly believed that our intervention in Iraq has been a recruitment tool.
我知道人们普遍认为我们对伊拉克的干预是一种招募工具。
There is no question that terrorists from around the globe are converging on Iraq.
毫无疑问，来自世界各地的恐怖分子正在向伊拉克聚集。
But showing that they have been recruited on the basis of Iraq is another matter altogether.
但要证明他们是在伊拉克的基础上招募的，则完全是另一回事。
James Fallows?
詹姆斯·法洛斯？
James Fallows Most of the people who have spent their lives trying to understand the sources of Islamic terrorism have said that what the US has done in Iraq is increasing their recruitment power.
詹姆斯·法洛斯 大多数毕生致力于了解伊斯兰恐怖主义根源的人都表示，美国在伊拉克所做的就是增加他们的招募力量。
The famous International Institute of Strategic Studies report a couple months ago saying that since the US went to Iraq, the worldwide supply of Al Qaeda operatives is up by a factor of two to three.
著名的国际战略研究所几个月前的报告称，自从美国出兵伊拉克以来，全球基地组织成员的供应量增加了两到三倍。
So we've killed them off inside Iraq but we're creating more, as even Donald Rumsfeld said in one of his memos a year or so ago.
因此，我们已经在伊拉克境内消灭了他们，但我们正在创造更多，正如唐纳德·拉姆斯菲尔德在一年前的一份备忘录中所说的那样。
Well, he raised the question.
嗯，他提出了这个问题。
And I'm impressed that the IISS is able to count the number of Al Qaeda terrorists.
令我印象深刻的是，国际战略研究所能够统计基地组织恐怖分子的数量。
I wish they'd tell us now where they are.
我希望他们现在能告诉我们他们在哪里。
The conversation went around and around like this.
谈话就这样一圈又一圈地进行着。
Both Perle and Fallows thought that there had been profound and preventable mistakes at two of the most important jobs in Iraq: securing the country the day after the invasion and creating and training an Iraqi security force.
珀尔和法洛斯都认为，在伊拉克最重要的两项工作中，存在着深刻且可以避免的错误：入侵后第二天保卫国家安全，以及建立和训练一支伊拉克安全部队。
Perle says these aren't the kinds of things you blame a president for.
珀尔说，这些不是你责怪总统的事情。
Fallows quoted chapter and verse about people fired and reports thrown away that could have prevented it.
法洛斯引用了关于被解雇的人以及被丢弃的报告的章节和诗句，这些本来可以阻止这种情况的发生。
[MUSIC - "I GIVE UP" BY QUASI]
[音乐 - QUASI 的“我放弃”]
Act two, Confession.
第二幕，忏悔。
We turn now to stories about people who are operating behind enemy lines in one way or another.
现在我们来谈谈那些以这样或那样的方式在敌后活动的人们的故事。
And we begin with the story of a young priest who is sent out on a series of jobs by church administrators to squelch some problems.
我们从一位年轻牧师的故事开始，他被教堂管理人员派去执行一系列工作，以解决一些问题。
In spending time out among the people who he is supposed to be deceiving he finds it harder and harder to keep doing his job.
当他花时间和那些他应该欺骗的人在一起时，他发现继续做他的工作变得越来越困难。
Carl Marziali tells the story from Los Angeles.
卡尔·马齐亚利 (Carl Marziali) 讲述了洛杉矶的故事。
Patrick Wall was just where he wanted to be at 26.
帕特里克·沃尔 (Patrick Wall) 26 岁时就达到了他想要达到的目标。
He was a monk studying theology at Saint John's Monastery in rural Minnesota.
他是一名修道士，在明尼苏达州乡村的圣约翰修道院学习神学。
He lived in a quiet room facing the lake.
他住在一间面向湖的安静的房间里。
He looked forward to a life of study and prayer.
他期待着学习和祈祷的生活。
It was late summer, 1991.
那是 1991 年夏末。
The first day that school started out, pretty uneventful winter morning.
开学第一天，冬日的早晨，风平浪静。
Prayer at 7 o'clock like normal.
7点像往常一样祈祷。
Went down for breakfast like normal, went back up to my room.
像往常一样下楼吃早餐，然后回到我的房间。
Was literally brushing my teeth when there was a knock on my door, which is extremely out of the ordinary.
当我正在刷牙时，有人敲门，这非常不寻常。
And it was Abbott Jerome Tyson.
这是阿伯特·杰罗姆·泰森。
Well, the abbot's a very quiet guy, and he usually never went up on that floor of the monastery.
嗯，方丈是个很安静的人，他通常从不上寺院的那一层楼。
So he says, may I come in?
于是他说，我可以进来吗？
I said, yes, Father Abbot, no problem.
我说，是的，方丈神父，没问题。
So he comes in, sits down, and you know I've got my books out, I've got a class in 10 minutes.
于是他进来，坐下来，你知道我已经把书拿出来了，十分钟后我就要上课了。
You know, what's up?
你知道，怎么了？
And he said, well, Father Dan Ward has told me that you would be a good person for this particular job.
他说，好吧，丹·沃德神父告诉我，你会是这份特殊工作的合适人选。
And we have a situation over in Saint Mary's Hall that we need you to be a faculty resident.
我们在圣玛丽大厅遇到了一个情况，我们需要你成为一名教员住院医师。
The faculty resident is the live-in counsellor at the college dorm.
教职员是大学宿舍的住宿辅导员。
The campus at Saint John's includes a university.
圣约翰的校园包括一所大学。
I said, "I'd love to be a faculty resident someday.
我说：“我很想有一天能成为一名住院医师。
I think it's a great idea." And he said, "No, today." And when I asked Abbot Jerome specifically what it was for, what was going on, he said well, I can't tell you that.
我认为这是个好主意。”他说：“不，今天。”当我具体问杰罗姆院长这是做什么的，发生了什么事时，他说好吧，我不能告诉你。
We had numerous sexual abuse cases that have been popping up.
我们发现了许多性虐待案件。
So ultimately there's only one conclusion that can be drawn.
所以最终只能得出一个结论。
That there was a an allegation that they must have thought somewhat credible or probable, and they needed to pull that particular monk.
他们一定认为有一项指控有些可信或可能，因此他们需要拉住那个特定的和尚。
And off I went.
然后我就出发了。
That afternoon, Wall moved his stuff out of his room and into the freshman dorm.
那天下午，沃尔把他的东西搬出了自己的房间，搬进了新生宿舍。
His instructions were simple.
他的指示很简单。
Put the kids at ease, and don't say anything about the monk you're replacing.
让孩子们放心，不要说任何关于你要取代的和尚的事。
He organized a pizza party for the students.
他为学生们组织了一场披萨派对。
He told them he was taking over as faculty resident but that he couldn't say why.
他告诉他们他将接任驻院教员，但他无法说出原因。
There were no questions.
没有人提问。
Wall didn't know it then, but he was being tested.
沃尔当时并不知道，他正在接受考验。
Unfortunately for him, he passed.
对他来说不幸的是，他通过了。
His dream was to be a monk as he understood monks to be: devout and learned men who live in monasteries.
他的梦想是成为一名僧侣，就像他所理解的僧侣一样：住在修道院里的虔诚而博学的人。
By showing a knack for damage control, he put himself on a less spiritual path.
通过表现出控制损害的技巧，他让自己走上了一条不那么精神的道路。
Before long the abbot appointed him to a sexual abuse response team and sent him to the Church of Saint Elizabeth's in the town of Hastings.
不久之后，方丈任命他加入性虐待应对小组，并将他送到黑斯廷斯镇的圣伊丽莎白教堂。
He was replacing a pastor who'd been withdrawn for what the monastery called a credible allegation.
他正在接替一位因修道院所谓的可信指控而被撤职的牧师。
Wall arrived at Saint Elizabeth's on February 2nd, 1993.
沃尔于 1993 年 2 月 2 日抵达圣伊丽莎白医院。
Replacing a pastor is not easy.
更换牧师并不容易。
People in a parish tend to get attached to their priest.
教区里的人们往往会对他们的牧师产生依恋。
Replacing a disgraced pastor is harder.
取代一个名誉扫地的牧师更加困难。
A lot of people believe their priest can do no wrong and they are not shy about telling his replacement.
许多人相信他们的牧师不会做错事，并且他们并不羞于告诉他的继任者。
They were very forward and forthright and angry.
他们非常前卫、直率、愤怒。
And they said, Father, I'm really sad that you're here.
他们说，神父，你在这里我真的很难过。
I'm really sorry that you had to come.
我真的很抱歉你必须来。
Because we really liked the other monk and we don't think he should have been removed.
因为我们真的很喜欢另一位和尚，我们认为他不应该被除名。
And that was it.
就是这样。
I said, I'm really sorry that that particular monk had to be removed and I'm here because my abbot asked me to be here.
我说，我真的很抱歉那个和尚必须被除掉，而我来这里是因为我的住持要求我来这里。
I tried to be as candid and simple as possible, but I felt taken aback, and I felt sad from the very beginning.
我试图尽可能地坦诚和简单，但我感到震惊，从一开始我就感到悲伤。
I didn't enjoy that experience.
我不喜欢那种经历。
At first, Wall tried to raise morale.
起初，沃尔试图鼓舞士气。
He told parishioners what he himself had been told.
他告诉教区居民他自己被告知的事情。
That the alleged abuse took place A, some time ago, and B, somewhere else.
所谓的虐待行为发生在 A 不久前，B 发生在其他地方。
But it wasn't long before victims at Saint Elizabeth's began coming forward.
但不久之后，圣伊丽莎白医院的受害者就开始挺身而出。
They would show up unannounced at the rectory, or in the church after mass, and asked to speak to him in private.
他们会在没有事先通知的情况下出现在教区长官邸，或者在弥撒结束后出现在教堂，并要求与他私下交谈。
Then they would start with a tiny revelation.
然后他们会从一个小小的启示开始。
It's unforgettable.
令人难忘。
It's absolutely unforgettable when they start to tell you.
当他们开始告诉你时，绝对令人难忘。
And they only tell you very small, cryptic little things.
他们只告诉你非常小、神秘的小事情。
There are code words for everything.
一切事物都有暗语。
And they've kind of broached the subject to see what you're going to do with it and to see if you're going to actually believe them.
他们提出这个话题是为了看看你会用它做什么，看看你是否会真正相信他们。
And obviously I'm 27 years old, I'm not exactly sure what to do with it.
显然我已经 27 岁了，我不知道该怎么办。
Emotionally I really had no idea what to do with it.
从情感上来说，我真的不知道该怎么办。
So how did you deal with it when the victim or victims came forward and told you about what had happened?
那么，当受害者站出来告诉你发生的事情时，你是如何处理的呢？
Do you try to comfort them, do you try to tell them that-- I mean, what do you do?
你是否试图安慰他们，你是否试图告诉他们——我的意思是，你会做什么？
Do you try to restore their faith in the Church or do you just listen and write up a complaint and send it off?
你会尝试恢复他们对教会的信心，还是只是倾听并写下投诉并将其发送出去？
You don't even write up a complaint.
你连投诉都不写。
Basically, you get a few of the facts and then you pass that on to the diocese.
基本上，你得到一些事实，然后将其传递给教区。
And honestly, unfortunately, it's easy to deal with because these people never go to church again.
老实说，不幸的是，这很容易处理，因为这些人再也不会去教堂了。
Because they really view that person as representing God, so it's hard for them to publicly ever celebrate or to practice their faith again.
因为他们确实认为那个人代表上帝，所以他们很难再次公开庆祝或实践他们的信仰。
So they just disappear, honestly.
所以说实话，他们就消失了。
Did you ever wonder whether you should make a special effort when they came to you to-- beyond the effort that you might make to convince somebody else to come back to the church-- to do something more for these victims, or to offer them counseling, or something to try to make up for what had happened?
你有没有想过，当他们来找你时，你是否应该做出特别的努力——除了你可能会努力说服别人回到教会之外——为这些受害者做更多的事情，或者为他们提供咨询，或者尝试弥补所发生的事情？
It's a difficult situation because you really need to remain neutral.
这是一个困难的情况，因为你确实需要保持中立。
And your natural inclination, especially as priests, is to be sympathetic and to heal.
你的自然倾向，尤其是作为牧师，是同情和治愈的。
But there's no way that you're going to be allowed to be part of the healing process, because ultimately you're part of the defendant.
但你不可能被允许参与治疗过程，因为最终你是被告的一部分。
You are the institution that brought about their hurt.
你是给他们带来伤害的机构。
And so you really have to put your professional hat on and keep an arm's distance.
所以你真的必须戴上你的职业帽子并保持一臂距离。
Wall survived the scandal at Saint Elizabeth's, and he helped his superiors survive it too.
沃尔在圣伊丽莎白学院的丑闻中幸存下来，他也帮助他的上级度过了难关。
He never told parishioners about the allegations in their parish, and the stories he was hearing in private never became public.
他从未告诉教区居民有关教区的指控，他私下听到的故事也从未公开。
After serving a year at Saint Elizabeth's, Wall thought he would come back to the monastery.
在圣伊丽莎白修道院服务一年后，沃尔认为他会回到修道院。
But near the end of his term he received a letter from the abbot instructing him to report to another parish, Saint Bernard's.
但在任期即将结束时，他收到了修道院院长的一封信，指示他到另一个教区圣伯纳德教区报到。
The monk there had been having an affair and paying for it with church money.
那里的修道士有外遇，并用教堂的钱来偿还。
This was not the assignment Wall had in mind, but part of him was flattered.
这并不是沃尔想要的任务，但他心里有些受宠若惊。
I felt pretty good about it because all of a sudden, I'm 28 years old, I'm an administrator of a parish.
我对此感觉很好，因为突然之间，我已经 28 岁了，我成为了一个教区的管理员。
I'm being turned loose as the boss.
我作为老板的身份被解除了。
That's a compliment as far as I'm concerned.
就我而言，这是一种恭维。
I really felt I was doing the right thing.
我真的觉得我做的是正确的事。
Not long after Wall arrived at Saint Bernard's, an agent from the IRS knocked on his door.
沃尔到达圣伯纳德学院后不久，美国国税局的一名特工就敲开了他的门。
The agent presented a bill, payable immediately, for $600,000 in back taxes, interest, and penalties for undeclared profits from a church-run lottery.
该代理人提出了一份应立即支付的账单，其中包括 60 万美元的欠税、利息以及对教会经营的彩票未申报利润的罚款。
The business manager was not available to answer questions because he had been the other person in the affair and had been removed along with the monk.
该业务经理无法回答问题，因为他是这起事件的另一人，并与僧人一起被驱逐。
Wall had to take a crash course in bookkeeping to pay the IRS.
为了向国税局缴纳税款，沃尔不得不参加簿记速成班。
The rest of his time at Saint Bernard's, Wall did what every priest does.
在圣伯纳德教堂的剩余时间里，沃尔做了每个牧师都会做的事情。
He celebrated Mass, performed weddings and funerals, baptized babies.
他庆祝弥撒、主持婚礼和葬礼、为婴儿施洗。
And he heard confessions, including those of other priests.
他还听到了忏悔，包括其他牧师的忏悔。
Despite the headlines, the percentage of priests who have abused minors is relatively low.
尽管成为头条新闻，但虐待未成年人的牧师比例相对较低。
Celibacy is another story.
独身则是另一回事。
In a recent Los Angeles Times poll, only 1/3 of priests said they do not waver from the celibate life.
在《洛杉矶时报》最近的一项民意调查中，只有 1/3 的牧师表示他们不会动摇独身生活。
After a while, Wall stopped thinking of broken vows as something foreign to his world.
过了一段时间，沃尔不再认为违背誓言对他的世界来说是陌生的。
Once you see enough people fall and once you hear enough confessions of different priests, you look at yourself in the mirror and you say, "Am I really any different?" And the chances of me maintaining a celibate way of life without failure along the way are so low that ultimately, either I have to change or the system needs to change.
一旦你看到足够多的人跌倒，一旦你听到足够多不同牧师的忏悔，你就会看着镜子里的自己，然后说：“我真的有什么不同吗？”我保持独身生活方式而不失败的机会是如此之低，以至于最终，要么我必须改变，要么系统需要改变。
What about-- there must a lot of priests who believe in being priests and have decided that the rule of celibacy is nonsense and so are willing to lead a double life of sorts.
怎么样——一定有很多牧师相信自己是牧师，并认为独身规则是无稽之谈，因此愿意过某种双重生活。
Was that-- that wasn't something that you considered?
那是不是你没有考虑过的？
No, that's really not my personality.
不，这真的不是我的性格。
I'm a terrible liar.
我是个可怕的骗子。
Oh, I turn red.
哦，我脸红了。
I'm really bad.
我真的很糟糕。
And I had seen priests who maintained heterosexual relationships with women and I saw the effects of it.
我见过牧师与女性保持异性关系，我看到了它的影响。
Because it's a life of contradiction, because the relationship is there, it's exclusive, but you can't profess it and everyone around you knows it's going on.
因为这是一种矛盾的生活，因为这种关系是存在的，它是排他性的，但你不能承认它，而你周围的每个人都知道它正在发生。
And that's not happiness.
那不是幸福。
That's not a true coming together.
这不是真正的聚在一起。
I just couldn't see myself doing that.
我只是看不到自己这样做。
That's just not me.
那不是我。
After Saint Bernard's, the assignments kept coming.
圣伯纳犬之后，作业不断到来。
The next one was an affair between a priest and a nun.
下一个是牧师和修女之间的风流韵事。
After that, a new parish where a teacher had abused a student and the priest was living with his housekeeper.
此后，在一个新的教区，一名教师虐待了一名学生，而牧师则与他的管家住在一起。
Four years, four parishes, four scandals.
四年，四个教区，四起丑闻。
There are good, dedicated priests out there, but they're not the ones who get replaced.
那里有优秀、奉献的牧师，但他们不是被取代的人。
By the very nature of his job, Wall was acquiring a skewed and depressing view of the priesthood.
由于他的工作性质，沃尔对神职人员产生了一种扭曲和令人沮丧的看法。
Did you ever ask not to be given those assignments?
您是否曾要求不要接受这些任务？
Yeah, I did.
是的，我做到了。
And I specifically asked to be able to come back to the prep school and teach.
我特别要求能够回到预科学校教书。
But the needs of the monastery were so great at that point that again, it was only going to be another year.
但当时修道院的需求是如此之大，以至于又过了一年。
I was only going to have to go to Saint Bernard's for another year.
我只需要再去圣伯纳犬一年。
So it sounds like a bad construction deal, you know, two more weeks.
所以这听起来像是一个糟糕的建筑交易，你知道，还有两周。
Give me two more weeks and we'll be done.
再给我两周时间，我们就完成了。
It just kept going on, kept going on.
它一直在继续，一直在继续。
Meanwhile, the monks he replaced were getting exactly what Wall himself had asked for.
与此同时，他所取代的僧侣们得到的正是沃尔本人所要求的。
They were going back to the monastery, permanently.
他们要永远回到修道院。
I'd run across them at community meetings and whenever we had chapter votes, and all that.
我会在社区会议上以及每当我们进行分会投票之类的时候遇到它们。
And it's hard not to be judgmental.
很难不做出评判。
The other thing I found hard was that my whole career path was driven by other people's mistakes.
我发现另一件困难的事情是我的整个职业道路都是由其他人的错误驱动的。
And that's the last thing I ever expected a monastic life.
这是我最不想看到的修道院生活。
I really expected to work in a parish for a year, to go off to grad school, come back, teach, coach football at the university, and to live a pretty darn good life of balance between prayer and teaching and working as a teacher.
我真的很希望能在教区工作一年，去读研究生，回来后，在大学教书、指导橄榄球，并在祈祷、教学和教师工作之间过上非常美好的平衡生活。
So they changed my career path, they changed my whole trajectory in life.
所以他们改变了我的职业道路，他们改变了我的整个人生轨迹。
Without fully realizing it, Wall had been initiated into a brotherhood of priests known informally as fixers, or cleaners.
在没有完全意识到这一点的情况下，沃尔已经加入了一个牧师兄弟会，非正式地称为修理工或清洁工。
They replaced problem priests, they hide things in the archives, they reassure the faithful.
他们更换了有问题的牧师，他们将事情隐藏在档案中，他们安抚信徒。
In short, they make it all go away.
简而言之，他们让一切都消失了。
Visually, he was perfect for the job.
从视觉上看，他非常适合这份工作。
He was barrel chested, a former offensive lineman on the Saint John's football team.
他胸肌发达，曾是圣约翰足球队的进攻前锋。
He was young and friendly.
他很年轻，很友善。
He was the anti-stereotype of a troubled monk.
他是一个反传统形象的陷入困境的僧侣。
The abbot couldn't have found a better prospect if he had picked a model out of a catalogue.
如果院长从目录中挑选一个模型，他不可能找到更好的前景。
But Wall did more than just PR.
但沃尔所做的不仅仅是公关。
He became familiar with the law of the church called canon law.
他开始熟悉称为教会法的教会法。
Specifically, with the different archives canon law sets up for storing and hiding information.
具体来说，教会法为存储和隐藏信息而设置了不同的档案。
The first is a historical archives which is just the names, states, people, those kinds of things.
第一个是历史档案，里面只有名字、国家、人物等等。
Then you have the secret archives.
然后你就有了秘密档案。
The secret archives.
秘密档案馆。
I mean, is that literally what they're called?
我的意思是，这真的是他们的名字吗？
The secret archives?
秘密档案馆？
I mean, why were they set up?
我的意思是，为什么要设立它们？
They're set up for the protection of individuals.
它们是为了保护个人而设立的。
So the bishop has the responsibility to take things that would be considered scandalous, things that might hurt individuals' reputations, and to be able to place them there so they wouldn't easily be exposed.
所以主教有责任把那些被认为是可耻的、可能损害个人名誉的事情收起来，并能够将它们放在那里，这样它们就不会轻易被曝光。
OK.
好的。
When you call it the secret archives, though, it makes it sound sinister.
然而，当你称其为秘密档案时，听起来就很险恶。
It makes it sound like it's there for the protection, to really protect the church.
这听起来像是为了保护，真正为了保护教堂。
I'm not saying that's what it is, but that's how it sounds.
我并不是说事情就是这样，但听起来就是这样。
What really is the purpose of these so called secret-- why can't everything be in the personnel records and then some items be labeled confidential or whatever?
这些所谓秘密的真正目的是什么——为什么不能将所有内容都记录在人事记录中，然后将某些项目标记为机密或其他什么？
Well, you've got to give Rome credit, I mean they have wonderful procedure.
好吧，你必须赞扬罗马，我的意思是他们的程序很棒。
This is things that have worked out for centuries.
这是几个世纪以来一直有效的事情。
And that has always been the secret to one of the defenses of the Church.
这一直是教会防御的秘密之一。
If you don't know what you're asking for, they don't have to produce it.
如果您不知道自己要什么，他们就不必提供。
When you were working for the Church cleaning up these situations of abuse and having to tell parishioners some of the facts, but not all of the facts, about what was going on, did you ever feel complicit in the cover-up of all of this?
当你在教会工作，清理这些虐待情况，并不得不告诉教区居民一些事实，但不是全部事实，关于正在发生的事情时，你是否曾觉得自己是掩盖这一切的同谋？
I have some regrets, but I think I did it in good faith.
我有些遗憾，但我认为我是出于善意。
Because, as I was taught and as I believe, that that was my role, to help the Church in the long run and to be obedient to what I was asked to do.
因为，正如我所受的教导和我所相信的那样，这就是我的角色，从长远来看帮助教会并服从我被要求做的事情。
And it's only later on that, as I've had greater experience, that I couldn't support it any longer.
直到后来，随着我有了更多的经验，我才不再支持它。
And I felt that if I was going to stay, I was going to not only support it but I was going to get deeper into it.
我觉得如果我要留下来，我不仅会支持它，而且会更深入地参与其中。
I was going to be asked to do other assignments, to follow pedophiles.
我将被要求做其他任务，追踪恋童癖者。
I was going to be asked to be on the finance council to try to figure out ways to mitigate the huge financial cost of childhood sexual abuse by priests and the religious.
我将被要求加入财务委员会，试图找到方法来减轻神父和宗教人士儿童性虐待所造成的巨大经济成本。
And I remember having an epiphany and sitting on the porch at Saint Mary's in Stillwater.
我记得坐在斯蒂尔沃特圣玛丽教堂的门廊上顿悟了。
And that's why I came to the conclusion that this is pretty much going to be my career path.
这就是为什么我得出这样的结论：这几乎将成为我的职业道路。
I'd be there for another year or two as the administrator, and then I would go on to another assignment.
我会在那里再担任一两年的管理员，然后我会继续执行另一项任务。
And I just couldn't do it any longer.
我再也做不到了。
After four years of deceiving the faithful about the extent of priests and misconduct, of protecting the institution over the health and welfare of the victims, of covering for the perpetrators and letting the problem fester, Patrick Wall decided he was on the wrong side.
四年来，帕特里克·沃尔在牧师和不当行为的严重程度上欺骗了信徒，保护了机构而不是受害者的健康和福利，为肇事者提供了掩护，让问题进一步恶化，帕特里克·沃尔认为自己站在了错误的一边。
On July 31st, 1998, Wall quit the priesthood.
1998年7月31日，沃尔辞去神职。
He was 33 years old.
他当时 33 岁。
Leaving was difficult.
离开是很困难的。
If you want to leave honorably, you need permission, which doesn't come easily or quickly.
如果你想体面地离开，你需要获得许可，而这并不容易或很快。
It took more than a year in Wall's case.
沃尔的案子花了一年多的时间。
Then, once you're out, there are practical challenges, like trying to get a job with a master of theology on your resume.
然后，一旦你出去了，就会遇到实际的挑战，比如试图找到一份简历上有神学硕士学位的工作。
In the end, it was his experience as a fixer that translated best to the real world.
最后，他作为调解员的经验最能体现在现实世界中。
Wall read an Op-Ed in the LA Times by John Manley, an attorney who sues the Church on behalf of sexual abuse victims.
沃尔在《洛杉矶时报》上阅读了约翰·曼利 (John Manley) 发表的一篇专栏文章，他是一位代表性虐待受害者起诉教会的律师。
He essentially separated himself amongst all the different attorneys in saying that we need to protect the sheep, and not the shepherd.
他基本上将自己与所有不同的律师区分开来，说我们需要保护羊，而不是牧羊人。
It's not the problem of the victims, it's not the problem of the particular perpetrators, per se, or some particular issue like homosexuality or whatever.
这不是受害者的问题，也不是特定肇事者本身的问题，也不是同性恋等特定问题的问题。
The problem is within the institution itself.
问题出在机构本身内部。
By this point, Wall was convinced that lawsuits were the only way to reform the Church.
至此，沃尔确信诉讼是改革教会的唯一途径。
He called Manley and offered to help.
他打电话给曼利并表示愿意提供帮助。
Soon they were on the phone constantly.
很快他们就不断地打电话。
Wall took him step by step through Church bureaucracy.
沃尔带领他一步步穿越教会的官僚机构。
Manley was amazed.
曼利很惊讶。
John didn't know all the different documents that are out there.
约翰不知道所有不同的文件。
And then John would be working on things and he'd call me up and say, "Dude, what do I do with this?
然后约翰会做一些事情，他会打电话给我说：“伙计，我该怎么处理这个？
What does this mean?
这意味着什么？
Where am I supposed to do with it?
我应该用它做什么？
What are other things-- where else can I look?"
还有什么其他的东西——我还能去哪里看？”
And I remember, I think he was quite surprised when I showed him the penal code of canon law and exactly what we need to ask for.
我记得，当我向他展示教会法的刑法以及我们需要要求的内容时，我认为他感到非常惊讶。
He just couldn't believe that it was there.
他简直不敢相信它就在那里。
That they would have that level of sophistication.
他们会有那种程度的复杂性。
Wall started working for Manley's law firm full time in October of 2002.
沃尔于 2002 年 10 月开始在曼利律师事务所全职工作。
Using his knowledge of Latin and Italian, he translates and interprets church records.
他利用自己的拉丁语和意大利语知识翻译和解释教会记录。
He helps the firm identify and request key documents, like psychological assessments of priests, from the secret archives.
他帮助公司从秘密档案中识别并索取关键文件，例如牧师的心理评估。
The fact that he switched sides, that he's fighting the Church, doesn't seem to trouble him.
他改变立场、与教会作对这一事实似乎并没有困扰他。
He believes he's doing what God wants him to do, which is what he's always believed.
他相信他正在做上帝要他做的事，这也是他一直相信的。
There's another part to Wall's job at the firm, which doesn't have anything to do with case law.
沃尔在公司的工作还有另一部分，与判例法没有任何关系。
Last week, he stayed on the phone with a man for an hour and a half, listening to him talk about the priest who abused him and who might still be hurting other people.
上周，他和一名男子通了一个半小时的电话，听他谈论虐待他的牧师以及可能仍在伤害其他人的事。
Wall finds himself talking to victims about all kinds of things, everything he was not allowed to talk about before, back when he was a priest.
沃尔发现自己正在与受害者谈论各种各样的事情，所有他以前不被允许谈论的事情，当他还是一名牧师时。
I feel I really do pastoral work when I'm working with victims every day.
当我每天与受害者一起工作时，我觉得我真的在做牧师工作。
On every single issue.
在每一个问题上。
Before you were part of a holy order, and now you're working with a bunch of lawyers.
之前你是骑士团的一员，现在你和一群律师一起工作。
And it's hard to know these days where priests belong on the ethical ladder, but most people know exactly where to put lawyers, and so it's just odd to hear you talk about this work being more fulfilling in some ways than what you were doing before.
现在很难知道牧师在道德阶梯上属于哪个位置，但大多数人确切地知道该把律师放在哪里，所以听到你说这项工作在某些方面比你以前所做的更有成就感，这很奇怪。
Well, we're dealing with people at the lowest ebb of where they're at.
好吧，我们面对的是处于最低潮的人们。
They're dealing with the greatest pain they've ever experienced.
他们正在应对他们所经历过的最大的痛苦。
And one of the greatest things that we find is that they can no longer participate in sacramental life of the Church because of the seven sacraments.
我们发现的最重要的事情之一是，由于七件圣礼，他们无法再参与教会的圣礼生活。
The one thing that's really clear is that it takes a priest to administer the sacrament.
真正清楚的一件事是，需要牧师来主持圣礼。
And every sacrament is either through touching or it's through breath, through words.
每一个圣礼要么通过触摸，要么通过呼吸，通过言语。
It's in close proximity to the priest.
距离牧师很近。
And that is the symbol of their abuse.
这就是他们虐待的象征。
So we're dealing with some of the most damaged people within the Church.
所以我们正在处理教会内一些受损最严重的人。
And it's a very fulfilling ministry, I find in being pastoral, to be with them.
我发现，与他们一起牧养，这是一个非常充实的事工。
Because honestly, we're one of the few symbols of hope that they have.
因为老实说，我们是他们拥有的少数希望的象征之一。
Patrick Wall is married now.
帕特里克·沃尔现已结婚。
He and his wife have a two-year-old daughter, who they plan to send to Catholic school.
他和妻子有一个两岁的女儿，他们计划将她送到天主教学校。
They all go to mass every Sunday.
他们每周日都去参加弥撒。
Carl Marziali attends mass with his family in Los Angeles.
卡尔·马齐亚利 (Carl Marziali) 与家人在洛杉矶参加弥撒。
Coming up, Enemies on our Turf.
即将到来，我们地盘上的敌人。
Controlling the minds of ants, of rats, and of you and me.
控制蚂蚁、老鼠、你我的思想。
This is not some whacked out conspiracy theory, my friend.
我的朋友，这不是什么阴谋论。
This is science.
这是科学。
Proof in a minute from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续进行时，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将提供一分钟的证明。
Act Three: Blood Agent Ira Glass This American Life, I'm Ira Glass.
第三幕：血液特工艾拉·格拉斯 在美国生活中，我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose some theme and bring you a variety of different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，每周我们的节目都会选择一些主题，并为您带来有关该主题的各种不同类型的故事。
Today's program, Enemy Camp, stories of what it means to work behind enemy lines.
今天的节目《敌营》讲述了在敌后工作的意义。
We've arrived at Act Three of our program.
我们已经到了节目的第三幕了。
Act Three, Blood Agent.
第三幕，血液特工。
Nature, it turns out, is full of enemy agents.
事实证明，大自然充满了敌方特工。
Living behind enemy lines, doing their work.
生活在敌后，做着自己的工作。
Parasites, they're literally parasites.
寄生虫，顾名思义，就是寄生虫。
Carl Zimmer has written a book about the different strategies that these parasites use to survive, and it makes for weirdly compelling reading.
卡尔·齐默（Carl Zimmer）写了一本关于这些寄生虫生存的不同策略的书，这本书非常引人入胜。
For one thing, who knew how prevalent they were.
一方面，谁知道它们有多普遍。
Most creatures on earth are living inside an enemy.
地球上的大多数生物都生活在敌人的体内。
And they are trying to fight that enemy, trying to survive, trying to outwit.
他们正在努力与敌人战斗，努力生存，努力智取。
Just to give people a sense of the range of things that different parasites do, could you tell the story of the parasite that gets into ants, the lancet fluke.
为了让人们了解不同寄生虫所做的一系列事情，您能否讲述一下进入蚂蚁体内的寄生虫（柳叶刀吸虫）的故事。
Sure.
当然。
Well, the lancet fluke is kind of a flatworm.
嗯，柳叶刀吸虫是一种扁形虫。
It starts out as an egg on the ground, and a snail comes along and eats the egg.
它一开始是地上的一个鸡蛋，然后一只蜗牛出现并吃掉了鸡蛋。
And it kind of irritates the snail's system, so that eventually it kind of coughs it up.
它会刺激蜗牛的系统，最终它会把痰咳出来。
And so there you have this sort of clump, kind of snail goo, with the parasite in it.
所以你就得到了这种团块，一种蜗牛粘液，里面有寄生虫。
And while it's disgusting to us, to an ant, there's nothing more delicious than snail goo.
虽然对我们来说，对蚂蚁来说，这很恶心，但没有什么比蜗牛粘液更美味的了。
So the ant comes along and it eats the snail goo and the parasite along with it.
于是蚂蚁出现了，它吃掉了蜗牛的粘液和寄生虫。
So now you have these flukes inside the ant.
现在蚂蚁体内就有了这些吸虫。
And once they recognize that they're inside the ant, they start doing some strange things.
一旦它们意识到自己在蚂蚁体内，它们就会开始做一些奇怪的事情。
As the sun is starting to go down, while the other ants are probably heading back to the nest, it gets this uncontrollable urge to climb upward.
当太阳开始落山时，当其他蚂蚁可能正在返回巢穴时，它就会产生无法控制的向上爬的冲动。
It wants to climb up.
它想爬上去。
And what it generally does is it climbs up a blade of grass.
它通常会爬上一片草叶。
And what's the advantage to the parasite for the ant to be up there?
蚂蚁在上面对寄生虫有什么好处呢？
Well it's not too obvious at first.
嗯，一开始并不太明显。
I mean, it's not like the parasite wants to take in a better view.
我的意思是，寄生虫并不想要看到更好的视野。
The thing is that there are these grazing mammals.
问题是有这些食草哺乳动物。
Sheep, cows.
羊、牛。
And that's one of their favorite grazing times, towards the end of the day.
这是他们最喜欢的放牧时间之一，一天快结束时。
So the ant goes up there, sheep comes along, chews on the grass.
所以蚂蚁去了那里，羊也跟着过来，咀嚼青草。
The ant gets eaten, chewed up, dies.
蚂蚁被吃掉、咀嚼、死亡。
But the flukes inside the ant, they can survive the digestive acids in the sheep's stomach.
但蚂蚁体内的吸虫，却能在羊胃里的消化酸中存活下来。
And actually, sheep are where they like to live.
事实上，羊是它们喜欢居住的地方。
They're their final host.
他们是最后的主人。
What's so amazing about that is not just the control that the parasite is having over the ant, that life cycle that you're describing is so complicated.
令人惊奇的不仅仅是寄生虫对蚂蚁的控制，你所描述的生命周期是如此复杂。
It's having to go through three different animals over the course of its normal life cycle.
它在正常的生命周期中必须经历三种不同的动物。
Yeah, there are actually some parasites that go through six or seven different animals to get through their life cycle.
是的，实际上有一些寄生虫需要通过六七种不同的动物才能完成其生命周期。
It's mind boggling.
真是令人难以置信。
It's really hard to talk about without ascribing a kind of intentionality to them.
如果不赋予它们某种意向性的话，真的很难谈论。
Which, they don't have consciousness, they don't have brains in any way.
他们没有意识，他们没有任何大脑。
It's hard for us to even understand what they're doing without kind of putting that on them.
如果不把这些放在他们身上，我们甚至很难理解他们在做什么。
Yeah.
是的。
Because they, I think, because in a sense they are using us.
我认为，因为他们在某种意义上正在利用我们。
Or are using other animals or other hosts in such an intentional way.
或者正在以这种故意的方式利用其他动物或其他宿主。
And they seem to know so much.
而且他们似乎知道很多。
Say, how does a tapeworm inside a fish know that if it makes it flick and flail in a certain way that it will be easier for a bird to see it so they can get inside that bird where it wants to be.
比如说，鱼体内的绦虫如何知道，如果它以某种方式使其轻弹和连枷，鸟儿就会更容易看到它，这样它们就可以进入鸟体内它想去的地方。
It's amazing.
太棒了。
And not only do they not have brains, a lot of them don't even have nerves.
而且他们不仅没有大脑，很多人甚至连神经都没有。
So it's just this sinister chemical wisdom they have.
所以这就是他们拥有的这种险恶的化学智慧。
It seems like all the parasites break down into two different groups.
似乎所有寄生虫都分为两个不同的组。
There are the kinds that actually get inside a host and then kill it off in their drive to survive, and then there are others which actually just kind of live inside and are happily living inside forever.
有些种类实际上进入了宿主体内，然后为了生存而杀死了它，还有一些种类实际上只是生活在里面，并且永远幸福地生活在里面。
They want the host to survive.
他们希望宿主活下来。
Could you just tell the example of the creature that eats the fish's tongue?
你能举个吃鱼舌头的生物的例子吗？
Yeah, this is a particularly creepy one.
是的，这是一个特别令人毛骨悚然的事情。
The parasite in question is called an isopod, which is a kind of crustacean.
这种寄生虫被称为等足类动物，是甲壳类动物的一种。
It looks like a little pill bug or something.
它看起来像一个小药丸虫什么的。
But it lives in the water.
但它生活在水里。
And what it does is it swims into the mouth of a snapper, a fish.
它所做的就是游进鲷鱼的嘴里。
And when it's in there, it eats that fish's tongue.
当它进入那里时，它会吃掉鱼的舌头。
It just devours the tongue completely, but just the tongue.
它只是将舌头彻底吞噬，但只是舌头。
It stops there.
它停在那里。
But now this isopod, this parasite, does something very weird.
但现在这种等足类动物，这种寄生虫，做了一些非常奇怪的事情。
It sort of turns around so it's facing front, and hunkers down exactly where the tongue used to be.
它有点转向，所以它面向前方，并在舌头原来所在的位置蹲下来。
So if you look in one of these fish's mouths, you see this tongue that has these little eyes on the end of it.
因此，如果你观察其中一条鱼的嘴，你会看到这条舌头的末端有这些小眼睛。
It's amazing.
太棒了。
And what scientists think then happens is that the fish can then use the parasite as its tongue.
科学家们认为，随后发生的事情是，鱼可以使用寄生虫作为它的舌头。
And it'll go out and catch some food, catch a fish, and will crush up the food on the back of this parasite.
它会出去抓一些食物，抓一条鱼，然后把食物压在这个寄生虫的背上。
The fish doesn't mind too much if it can still get its meal, I guess.
我想，如果鱼还能吃到饭的话，它不会太介意。
And the fish can then get back to its life.
然后鱼就可以恢复生机。
So many of these stories just are such gross-out stories on a visceral level.
从发自内心的层面来看，这些故事中有很多都是非常恶心的故事。
Well you know, it's funny because it disturbs us when we talk about that when it comes to parasites.
嗯，你知道，这很有趣，因为当我们谈论寄生虫时，它让我们感到不安。
But, I mean, why doesn't it disturb us when we talk about a lion.
但是，我的意思是，当我们谈论狮子时，为什么我们不会感到不安呢？
We name football teams after lions, but we don't name football teams after tapeworms.
我们以狮子的名字命名足球队，但我们不会以绦虫的名字命名足球队。
You don't have the Chicago Tapeworms or something that.
你没有芝加哥绦虫之类的东西。
We don't want to think about it.
我们不想考虑它。
But we admire these predators, but what are these predators doing?
但我们很佩服这些掠食者，但是这些掠食者在做什么呢？
These predators are taking advantage of these other life forms.
这些掠食者正在利用这些其他生命形式。
They're eating it from the outside, I guess you could say.
我想你可以说，他们是从外面吃的。
But I mean, to my mind, it's just a lot more cool when they're on the inside trying to figure out how to make this work.
但我的意思是，在我看来，当他们在内部试图弄清楚如何使这项工作成功时，这会更酷。
Thinking about this as much as you have, do you start to see everything as being parasites?
尽可能多地思考这个问题，你是否开始将一切视为寄生虫？
I see a lot of things as being like parasites.
我觉得很多东西就像寄生虫一样。
Parasites are the most successful life form on Earth.
寄生虫是地球上最成功的生命形式。
And it could be as many as three parasites for every one free living species, it's hard to say.
每一种自由生活的物种可能有多达三种寄生虫，这很难说。
And if you're not a species that is living inside another thing, then you're a species with something living inside of you.
如果你不是一个生活在另一个事物内部的物种，那么你就是一个生活在你体内的事物的物种。
Is one side winning?
一方获胜吗？
Carl Zimmer I'd say the parasites have the upper hand because they're just doing so very well.
Carl Zimmer 我想说寄生虫占据上风，因为它们做得很好。
Sure.
当然。
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, they have the most species, they're getting around all these defenses.
我的意思是，他们拥有最多的物种，他们正在绕过所有这些防御。
I mean, there are things they do that either we don't know how they do it or if we know how they do it we can't reproduce it.
我的意思是，他们做的有些事情要么我们不知道他们是如何做的，要么即使我们知道他们是如何做的，我们也无法复制它。
We just stand in awe of it.
我们只是对它感到敬畏。
I know, but we know about them, they don't know about us.
我知道，但我们了解他们，他们不了解我们。
We're the ones with the brains and the thinking and the consciousness.
我们是有大脑、有思想、有意识的人。
Then maybe you're overselling your brain.
那么也许你过度推销了你的大脑。
I mean, the brain is a wonderful thing, but these parasites are able to pull the strings in those brains in a lot of cases.
我的意思是，大脑是一个奇妙的东西，但在很多情况下，这些寄生虫能够操纵大脑。
Say, for example, you know, a rat.
比如说，你知道，一只老鼠。
Rats are very, very smart animals.
老鼠是非常非常聪明的动物。
They know how to learn, they know how to figure out their surroundings.
他们知道如何学习，知道如何了解周围的环境。
But there's a parasite called toxoplasma, it's a single-celled parasite.
但有一种寄生虫叫做弓形虫，它是一种单细胞寄生虫。
And they pick it up on the ground.
他们把地上的东西捡起来。
And when it gets into them, they suddenly lose their fear of the smell of cats.
当它进入他们体内时，他们突然不再害怕猫的气味。
Otherwise, they're totally the same.
否则，它们是完全一样的。
And then the cat eats them, and then toxoplasma gets into its final host, which is the cat.
然后猫吃了它们，弓形虫就进入了它的最终宿主，也就是猫。
So even though you've got a brain, you're still being pushed toward your doom by this single-celled parasite.
因此，即使你有大脑，你仍然会被这种单细胞寄生虫推向灭亡。
I think I'm on the parasites' side when it comes to getting a bad rep.
我想，当谈到获得坏名声时，我是站在寄生虫一边的。
I'm their PR man.
我是他们的公关人员。
Because, Mr. Zimmer, at some point we're all going to have to choose sides in this war.
因为，齐默先生，在某些时候我们都必须在这场战争中选择立场。
Speaking for the other humans, I want to say you're either with us or against us.
代表其他人类，我想说你们要么支持我们，要么反对我们。
You know, it's funny.
你知道，这很有趣。
I have not gotten seriously sick in my life, knock on wood.
我这辈子还没有生过重病，敲木头。
And I have actually gone to places where there are a lot of parasites around in order to report on how people are dealing with them.
事实上，我去过周围有很多寄生虫的地方，以报告人们如何处理它们。
And I didn't get sick.
而且我没有生病。
I was really scared, but I didn't get sick.
我真的很害怕，但我没有生病。
I didn't get malaria, I didn't get river blindness, I didn't get sleeping sickness.
我没有得疟疾，我没有得河盲症，我没有得昏睡病。
Wait a second.
等一下。
Are you saying this because they could sense that you are in league with them?
你这么说是因为他们感觉到你与他们有勾结吗？
Who knows.
谁知道呢。
Maybe they think I'm here to serve their purpose.
也许他们认为我来这里是为了达到他们的目的。
Carl Zimmer.
卡尔·齐默.
His book, the perfect reading material if you ever want to have a long talk with an eight-year-old boy, is Parasite Rex.
如果你想与一个八岁男孩进行长谈，他的书《寄生虫霸王龙》是完美的阅读材料。
[MUSIC - "I LIVE OFF YOU" BY X-RAY SPEX]
[音乐 - X-RAY SPEX 的“I LIVE OFF YOU”]
Act four, Sleeping with your Enemy.
第四幕，与你的敌人同眠。
We have this story about what's hidden inside of us, the secret agents within.
我们有一个关于隐藏在我们内心的东西、里面的秘密特工的故事。
From writer Etgar Keret.
来自作家埃特加·凯雷特。
Among other things, he says that it's a story about his real-life girlfriend.
除其他外，他说这是一个关于他现实生活中的女朋友的故事。
Actor Matt Malloy reads it for us.
演员马特·马洛伊为我们朗读。
A warning to listeners before we begin, this story mentions the existence of sex.
在我们开始之前警告听众，这个故事提到了性的存在。
Surprised?
惊讶吗？
Of course I was surprised.
我当然很惊讶。
You go out with a girl.
你和一个女孩出去。
First date, second date, a restaurant here, a movie there, always just matinees.
第一次约会，第二次约会，这里一家餐馆，那里一场电影，总是只有日场。
You start sleeping together, sex is dynamite, and pretty soon there's feeling too.
你们开始睡在一起，性是炸药，很快也会有感觉。
And then, one day, she arrives all weepy, and you hug her and tell her to take it easy, that everything's OK, but she says she can't stand it anymore, she has this secret, not just a secret, something really awful, a curse, something she's been wanting to tell you the whole time but she didn't have the guts.
然后有一天，她哭着来了，你拥抱她，告诉她别紧张，一切都很好，但她说她再也受不了了，她有这个秘密，不仅仅是一个秘密，一些非常可怕的事情，一个诅咒，一些她一直想告诉你但她没有勇气的事情。
This thing, it's been weighing down on her like a ton of bricks and now she's got to tell you, she's simply got to.
这件事，就像一吨重的砖头一样压在她身上，现在她必须告诉你，她必须这么做。
But she knows that as soon as she does, you'll leave her, and you'd be absolutely right, too.
但她知道，一旦她这样做，你就会离开她，而且你也是绝对正确的。
And right after that, she starts crying all over again.
就在那之后，她又开始哭泣。
"I won't leave you," you tell her.
“我不会离开你，”你告诉她。
"I won't.
“我不会。
I love you." You may look a little upset, but you're not.
我爱你。”你可能看起来有点沮丧，但事实并非如此。
And even if you are, it's about her crying, not about her secret.
即使你是，这也是关于她的哭泣，而不是关于她的秘密。
You know by now that these secrets that always make a woman fall to pieces are usually nothing.
你现在知道了，这些总是让女人崩溃的秘密通常都不算什么。
And you hug them and say, "It's all right, it's OK." Or "Shh" if they don't stop.
然后你拥抱他们并说：“没关系，没关系。”如果他们不停下来，就“嘘”。
"It's something really terrible," she insists, as if she's picked up on how nonchalant you are about it, even though you tried to hide it.
“这真的很可怕，”她坚持说，仿佛她发现了你对此的漠不关心，尽管你试图隐藏它。
"In the pit of your stomach it may sound terrible," you tell her, "but that's mostly because of the acoustics.
“在你的内心深处，这听起来可能很糟糕，”你告诉她，“但这主要是因为音响效果。
Soon as you let it out, it won't seem nearly as bad, you'll see."
一旦你把它释放出来，你就会看到，它看起来不会那么糟糕。”
And she almost believes it.
她几乎相信了。
She hesitates a minute and then asks, "What if I told you that at night I turn into a heavy, hairy man, with no neck, with a gold ring on his pinky?
她犹豫了一会儿，然后问道：“如果我告诉你，到了晚上我会变成一个肥胖、毛茸茸的男人，没有脖子，小指上戴着金戒指呢？
Would you still love me?" And you tell her of course you would.
你还会爱我吗？”你告诉她你当然会的。
What else can you say, that you wouldn't?
你还能说什么呢？
She's simply trying to test you, to see whether you love her unconditionally.
她只是想考验你，看看你是否无条件地爱她。
And you've always been a winner at tests.
而且你总是在测试中获胜。
Truth is, as soon as you say it, she melts, and you screw, right there in the living room.
事实是，只要你说出来，她就会融化，而你就在客厅里搞砸了。
And afterward, you lie there holding each other tight, and she cries, because she's so relieved.
然后，你们躺在那里，紧紧地拥抱在一起，她哭了，因为她如释重负。
And you cry too.
而你也哭了。
Go figure.
去算算吧。
And unlike all the other times, she doesn't get up and leave.
与其他时候不同的是，她没有起身离开。
She stays there and falls asleep.
她呆在那里睡着了。
You lie awake looking at her beautiful body, at the sunset outside, at the moon appearing as if out of nowhere, at the silvery light flickering over her body, stroking the hair on her back.
你醒着地躺在床上，看着她美丽的身体，看着外面的日落，看着不知从哪里出现的月亮，看着她身上闪烁的银色光芒，抚摸着她背上的头发。
And within less than five minutes you find yourself lying next to this guy.
不到五分钟，你就发现自己躺在这个家伙旁边。
This short, fat guy.
这个又矮又胖的家伙。
And the guy gets up and smiles at you, and gets dressed awkwardly.
那家伙站起来对你微笑，然后穿得很尴尬。
He leaves the room and you follow him, spellbound.
他离开了房间，你跟着他，着了迷。
He's in the den now, his thick fingers fiddling with the remote, zapping to the sports channels.
他现在在书房里，粗大的手指摆弄着遥控器，调到体育频道。
Championship football.
冠军足球。
When they miss a pass, he curses the TV.
当他们传球失败时，他就会咒骂电视。
When they score, he gets up and does this little victory dance.
当他们得分时，他站起来跳起这小小的胜利之舞。
After the game, he tells you that his throat is dry and his stomach is growling.
比赛结束后，他告诉你他的喉咙很干，肚子咕咕叫。
He could really use a beer and a nice hunk of meat.
他真的需要一杯啤酒和一块美味的肉。
Well done, if possible, with lots of onion rings, but he'd settle for some pork chops too.
如果可以的话，做得很好，有很多洋葱圈，但他也愿意吃一些猪排。
So you get in the car and take him to this restaurant that he knows about and you don't.
所以你上车带他去这家他知道而你不知道的餐厅。
This new twist has you worried, it really does, but you have no idea what to do about it.
这个新的转折让你担心，确实如此，但你不知道该怎么办。
Your command and control centers are down.
你的指挥和控制中心瘫痪了。
You shift gears at the exit, in a daze.
你在出口处换档，神情恍惚。
He's right there beside you in the passenger seat, tapping that gold-ringed pinky of his.
他就在你旁边的副驾驶座位上，轻拍着他的金戒指小指。
At the next intersection, he rolls down his window, winks at you, and yells at this chick who's thumbing a ride, "Hey, baby, wanna play nanny goat and ride in the back?"
在下一个路口，他摇下车窗，向你眨眼，并对正在搭便车的小妞大喊：“嘿，宝贝，想扮演保姆山羊并骑在后面吗？”
Later, the two of you pack in the steak and the chops and the onion rings till you're about to explode, and he enjoys every bite, and laughs like a baby.
后来，你们两个把牛排、排骨和洋葱圈放进去，直到你们快要爆炸了，他每一口都很享受，笑得像个婴儿。
And all that time, you keep telling yourself it's got to be a dream.
一直以来，你不断告诉自己这一定是一个梦。
A bizarre dream, yes, but definitely one that you'll snap out of any minute.
是的，这是一个奇怪的梦，但绝对是一个你随时都会醒悟的梦。
On the way back, you ask him where to let him off, and he pretends not to hear you, but he looks despondent.
回来的路上，你问他在哪里下车，他假装没听见，但一脸沮丧。
So you wind up taking him back home with you.
所以你最终还是把他带回家了。
It's almost 3 AM.
已经快凌晨 3 点了。
"I'm going to hit the sack," you tell him, and he waves to you, stays in the beanbag chair, staring at the fashion channel.
“我要睡觉了，”你告诉他，他向你挥手，坐在豆袋椅上，盯着时尚频道。
You wake up the next morning, exhausted, with a slight stomachache.
第二天早上你醒来，精疲力尽，还有轻微的胃痛。
And there she is, in the living room, still dozing.
她就在客厅里，还在打瞌睡。
By the time you've had your shower, she's up.
等你洗完澡，她就起来了。
She hugs you guiltily, and you're too embarrassed to say anything.
她愧疚地抱住你，你却不好意思说什么。
Time goes by and you're still together.
时间流逝，你们还在一起。
The sex just gets better and better.
性爱变得越来越好。
And she's not so young anymore, and neither are you, and suddenly find yourselves talking about a baby.
她不再那么年轻了，你们也不再那么年轻了，突然发现自己在谈论婴儿。
And at night, you and the fatso guy hit the town like you've never done in your life.
晚上，你和那个胖子以你一生中从未做过的方式进城。
He takes you to restaurants and bars you didn't even know existed, and you dance on tables together, break plates like there's no tomorrow.
他带你去你甚至不知道存在的餐馆和酒吧，你们一起在桌子上跳舞，打破盘子，就像没有明天一样。
He's really nice, the fatso guy, a little crass, especially with women, sometimes coming out with things that make you just want to die.
他真的很好，是个胖子，有点粗鲁，尤其是对女人来说，有时会说出一些让你想死的事情。
But other than that, he's great fun to be with.
但除此之外，和他在一起很有趣。
When you first met him, you didn't give a damn about football, but now you know every team.
当你第一次见到他时，你根本不关心足球，但现在你了解每支球队。
And whenever one of your favorites wins, you feel like you've made a wish and it's come true.
每当你最喜欢的球队获胜时，你都会感觉自己已经许下了一个愿望，而且它已经实现了。
Which is a pretty exceptional feeling for someone like you, who hardly knows what he wants most of the time.
对于像你这样大多数时候几乎不知道自己想要什么的人来说，这是一种非常特别的感觉。
And so it goes.
事情就是这样。
Every night you fall asleep with him struggling to stay awake for the early scores on ESPN, and in the morning there she is.
每天晚上你入睡时，他都在努力保持清醒，观看 ESPN 的早期比分，而早上她就在那里。
The beautiful forgiving woman that you love too till it hurts.
你也爱着那个美丽、宽容的女人，直到受伤。
Matt Malloy, reading Etgar Keret's story "Fatso." Keret is the author of a book of short stories called The Bus Driver Who Wanted to be God.
马特·马洛伊（Matt Malloy）正在阅读埃特加·凯雷特（Etgar Keret）的故事《Fatso》。凯雷特是短篇小说集《想成为上帝的公交车司机》的作者。
His story was translated into English by Miriam Shlesigner.
他的故事被 Miriam Shlesigner 翻译成英文。
Publishers take note.
出版商请注意。
"Fatso" is part of a book of great short stories, brand new.
《胖子》是一本伟大的短篇小说集的一部分，是全新的。
It is looking for an American publisher.
它正在寻找一家美国出版商。
Special thanks today to Danny Miller, Jennifer Swihart, Tim Lavin, Bob Carlson, Brett Grossman, Scott Carrier, Peter Gray.
今天特别感谢丹尼·米勒、詹妮弗·斯威哈特、蒂姆·拉文、鲍勃·卡尔森、布雷特·格罗斯曼、斯科特·卡里尔、彼得·格雷。
Music help from conciliary Sarah Vowell.
辅佐莎拉·沃威尔 (Sarah Vowell) 提供音乐帮助。
Our website, www.thisamericanlife.org, where you can listen to our shows for absolutely free.
我们的网站 www.thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中完全免费收听我们的节目。
Or buy CDs of them.
或者购买它们的 CD。
You know, you can download audio of our program at audible.com/thisamericanlife.
您知道，您可以在 audible.com/thisamericanlife 下载我们节目的音频。
With a public radio programs best selling books.
拥有公共广播节目最畅销的书籍。
Even the New York Times, all at audible.com.
甚至《纽约时报》也都在 audible.com 上。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
Funding for our show is provided by Volkswagen of America and the Phaeton, featuring an air suspension system that can be adjusted to one of four performance settings on the fly.
我们的展览由美国大众汽车公司和辉腾公司提供资金，其配备的空气悬架系统可以即时调整为四种性能设置之一。
The Phaeton, it's the most Volkswagen you can get without a prescription.
辉腾是您无需处方就能买到的最大众汽车。
More at vw.com.
更多信息请访问 vw.com。
WBEZ management oversight for our program by Torey Malatia, who has just one question for you:
Torey Malatia 对我们的项目进行 WBEZ 管理监督，他只有一个问题要问您：
Hey baby, wanna play nanny goat and ride in the back?
嘿宝贝，想扮演山羊保姆并骑在后面吗？
I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life.
我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。