272: Big Tent - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #272 | September 10, 2004 272: Big Tent Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 272 集 | 2004 年 9 月 10 日 272：大帐篷 注：《This American Life》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
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如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass A couple weeks ago, I heard this show on the radio where they were trying to explain why most people in most elections prefer Republicans these days.
序言 Ira Glass 几周前，我在广播中听到这个节目，他们试图解释为什么现在大多数选举中的大多数人都更喜欢共和党。
And there was a writer named Thomas Frank on the show, going around with this book that he just published about politics in Kansas.
节目中有一位名叫托马斯·弗兰克的作家，带着他刚刚出版的关于堪萨斯州政治的书四处走动。
He is interested in why Kansans would keep voting for Republicans at every level, even though Republican economic policies and social policies weren't doing much to help them.
他感兴趣的是为什么堪萨斯人会在各个层面继续投票给共和党人，尽管共和党的经济政策和社会政策对他们没有多大帮助。
And, he says, they actually made their lives tougher in a lot of ways.
而且，他说，他们实际上在很多方面让自己的生活变得更加艰难。
Hurt farmers.
伤害农民。
Hurt the Kansas economy.
损害堪萨斯州的经济。
The poorest county in the country went for President Bush with an 80% majority in the last election.
布什总统在上次选举中以 80% 的多数票当选美国最贫困的县。
Frank's argument-- you may have heard him talk about this on that book tour-- is that Republicans were getting people to vote against their own economic self-interest by appealing to their values on cultural issues, on abortion, on God.
弗兰克的论点——你可能在那次售书活动中听到他谈论过这一点——是共和党人通过在文化问题、堕胎和上帝问题上诉诸他们的价值观，让人们投票反对他们自己的经济利益。
Though as Frank and the other guest on this radio show, On Point, said-- the other guest was Atlantic Monthly senior editor, Jack Beatty-- the Democrats haven't been very good for most Kansans' economic interests either.
尽管正如弗兰克和本次广播节目 On Point 的另一位嘉宾（另一位嘉宾是《大西洋月刊》高级编辑杰克·贝蒂）所说，民主党对大多数堪萨斯人的经济利益也不是很好。
You know, it's hard to say that the people voting for the Republican party are all that wrong.
你知道，很难说投票给共和党的人都是错的。
I mean, neither party represents their interests.
我的意思是，双方都不代表自己的利益。
So they vote for the party that better represents their values.
因此，他们投票给更能代表他们价值观的政党。
And that is the GOP.
这就是共和党。
Exactly.
确切地。
Thomas Frank It delivers.
托马斯·弗兰克 它做到了。
Gag rule on abortion internationally, stem cell research, abstinence-only programs in the schools, an effort to appoint anti-choice judges.
国际上对堕胎、干细胞研究、学校中的禁欲项目以及任命反堕胎法官的努力的禁言规则。
It delivers, or tries to deliver, on the values agenda.
它实现或试图实现价值观议程。
Whereas the Democrats-- I mean, look at Clinton.
而民主党——我的意思是，看看克林顿。
He gave the Midwest NAFTA, the China health deal.
他签署了中西部北美自由贸易协定（NAFTA）和中国卫生协议。
They didn't get health care.
他们没有得到医疗保健。
So it's hard to turn around to the people who've lost their livelihoods and say, vote for us.
因此，很难对那些失去生计的人们说，投票给我们。
We're the party that will-- well, what will we do?
我们是会——好吧，我们会做什么？
Well, we'll expose you to international competition.
好吧，我们会让你参与国际竞争。
Whereas the Republicans are going to do the same thing.
而共和党也会做同样的事情。
But at least they're going to make noises on the culture war.
但至少他们会在文化战争中发出声音。
Soon they got to callers.
很快他们就接到了来电者的电话。
The first was this Republican voter who said that of course he wasn't just voting his pocketbook.
第一个是这位共和党选民，他说他当然不只是为了自己的钱包而投票。
That would be crude.
那太粗糙了。
Your commentator's points about their voting against their economic best interests, well there's more of concern to me than who's going to give me a tax break, or who's going to build a factory in my town.
你的评论员关于他们投票反对他们的经济最佳利益的观点，嗯，我更关心的不是谁会给我减税，或者谁会在我的镇上建一家工厂。
I've got a lot of other interests that are important to me.
我还有很多其他对我来说很重要的兴趣。
This caller said that he disagreed with the Republicans on a bunch of things.
这位来电者表示，他在很多事情上与共和党人存在分歧。
But he said that one nice thing about the Republican Party is that it welcomes people who disagree with them on this particular issue, or that particular issue.
但他说，共和党的一个好处是，它欢迎在这个特定问题或那个特定问题上与他们意见不同的人。
Whereas, he said, Democrats, if you're pro-life, it doesn't feel like there's any place for you in the party.
然而，他说，民主党人，如果你是反堕胎者，那么你会觉得党内没有任何地位。
The next caller said the same thing, that there was no room in the Democratic Party for a diversity of views.
下一个来电者也说了同样的话，即民主党内部没有容纳多元化观点的空间。
If you even contemplate, if you even advocate even restrictions on abortion-- which even the majority of people of the United States would favor-- there's no room for you in the Democratic Party.
如果你考虑一下，如果你甚至主张限制堕胎——即使是美国的大多数人也会赞成——民主党中就没有你的空间。
You won't be allowed to speak at the Convention to advocate the idea that the state should decide when and under what circumstances abortion should be allowed.
你将不被允许在大会上发言来倡导国家应该决定何时以及在什么情况下允许堕胎的想法。
Of course, famously, in 1992, Pennsylvania's Democratic governor, Robert Casey, wasn't allowed to speak at his own party's convention, because he was pro-life.
当然，众所周知的是，1992 年，宾夕法尼亚州民主党州长罗伯特·凯西 (Robert Casey) 不被允许在本党代表大会上发言，因为他是反堕胎者。
Republicans control the House, they control the Senate, they control the White House.
共和党控制众议院，他们控制参议院，他们控制白宫。
They have 28 of 50 governorships.
他们拥有 50 个州长职位中的 28 个。
They control the House and the Senate in 21 State Houses.
他们控制着 21 个州议会的众议院和参议院。
Seven out of nine Supreme Court Justices are Republican appointees.
最高法院九名法官中有七名是共和党任命的。
And they dominate the majority of federal appellate courts, as well.
他们还主导着大多数联邦上诉法院。
They are on the march.
他们正在行军中。
Republicans are positioning themselves as America's majority party.
共和党将自己定位为美国的多数党。
And what that means is-- though Democrats may find this surprising, given the fact that blacks, and Jews, and Hispanics still vote mostly for Democrats-- lots of people find the Republican Party to be more inclusive, more welcoming, more accepting of diverging views.
这意味着——尽管民主党人可能会觉得这令人惊讶，因为事实上黑人、犹太人和西班牙裔人仍然主要投票给民主党——但很多人发现共和党更具包容性、更热情、更能接受不同的观点。
This is what Newt Gingrich was talking about, just last week, when he declared that yes, there is a party of narrow-minded bigotry in this country.
这就是纽特·金里奇上周所说的，当时他宣称，是的，这个国家存在一个心胸狭隘偏执的政党。
It's called the Democrats.
这就是所谓的民主党。
He meant that the Democrats are the ones who demand that you fall into lockstep on abortion, and affirmative action, and all sorts of other political correctness besides.
他的意思是，民主党要求你们在堕胎、平权行动以及其他各种政治正确性问题上步调一致。
Today on our radio show, Republicans on the March.
今天在我们的广播节目中，共和党人游行。
Their party is great at getting elected.
他们的政党很擅长当选。
And they do it very smartly, by papering over the differences come election time.
他们做得非常聪明，在选举时掩盖了分歧。
On today's program, though, we leave aside the official talking points that Republicans are saying everywhere until November, and ask Republicans to speak instead about what they actually believe, and what they want for their party, and for the country.
不过，在今天的节目中，我们将共和党人在 11 月之前到处谈论的官方谈话要点放在一边，并要求共和党人谈论他们的实际信仰，以及他们对政党和国家的期望。
And it's way more complicated than you might think.
而且它比你想象的要复杂得多。
Not just Christians on the one side of the Party fighting with moderates on the other.
不仅仅是党内的基督徒与另一边的温和派作斗争。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life , distributed by Public Radio International.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today on our radio show, Republicans, The Party of Inclusion.
今天在我们的广播节目中，共和党，包容党。
Act One of our program, Pink Elephant.
我们的节目第一幕，粉红大象。
In that act, a Republican on what might seem like an ill-fated mission to win the hearts and minds of his fellow Republicans at their convention.
在这一行动中，共和党人肩负着一项看似命运多舛的使命，即在大会上赢得共和党同胞的支持。
Act Two, Right and Righter.
第二幕，正确与更正确。
A visit to one of the many states where the Republican Party has been picking up strength.
访问共和党实力不断增强的众多州之一。
To see how and why, we spend some time with the Alabama Republican Party.
为了了解如何以及为何，我们花了一些时间与阿拉巴马州共和党进行交流。
Act Three, Indecent Proposal.
第三幕，不雅求婚。
In that act, free market Republicans in this story, about a rich guy who knows that every person has his price.
在那一幕中，自由市场共和党人在这个故事中讲述了一个有钱人知道每个人都有他的价格。
And so he goes to his Republican co-workers with an offer of money-- lots and lots of money-- if they will dare to spend just one evening with him, doing an act that most Republicans would find utterly repulsive, namely watching the Michael Moore film.
因此，他向他的共和党同事提出了一份金钱——很多很多的钱——如果他们敢于和他共度一个晚上，做一件大多数共和党人会觉得完全令人厌恶的行为，即观看迈克尔·摩尔的电影。
Act Four, It's My Party.
第四幕，这是我的派对。
One of the most civil conversations that you will ever hear between one side of the Party, that feels like it should be included, and the other, that feels that maybe it should not.
这是你所听到的最文明的对话之一，党内的一方认为应该将其包括在内，而另一方则认为也许不应该将其包括在内。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, Pink Elephant.
第一幕，粉红大象。
Patrick Howell came to the Republican Convention this year on a mission that makes you wonder if he's in denial about the state of today's Republican Party, or if he knows a lot more about it than you do.
帕特里克·豪威尔今年来到共和党全国代表大会，他的使命让你怀疑他是否否认当今共和党的状况，或者他是否比你了解得更多。
I saw it as a great opportunity to bring the inclusive Log Cabin message to the delegates that I happened to meet.
我认为这是一个很好的机会，可以向我碰巧遇到的代表们传达包容性小木屋的信息。
The Log Cabin message is the message of gay Republicans.
小木屋的信息是同性恋共和党人的信息。
Log Cabin, you may already know, is the name of the gay Republicans' official national organization.
您可能已经知道，Log Cabin 是同性恋共和党官方全国组织的名称。
And their inclusive message definitely had an uphill battle at this year's convention.
他们所传达的包容性信息在今年的大会上无疑是一场艰苦的战斗。
Not only did the party adopt a platform calling for a constitutional amendment to outlaw gay marriage, and decrying that homosexuality is not compatible with military service, gay Republicans couldn't even talk a single delegate into presenting their side of things for discussion at the platform committee.
该党不仅通过了一个纲领，要求修改宪法以取缔同性婚姻，并谴责同性恋与服兵役不相容，同性恋共和党人甚至无法说服任何一位代表在纲领委员会上提出他们的观点以供讨论。
They were totally shut out.
他们完全被拒之门外。
Nationally, just 11% of Republican voters support same-sex marriage.
在全国范围内，只有 11% 的共和党选民支持同性婚姻。
Hence Patrick's plan.
这就是帕特里克的计划。
I get to go to all the breakfasts, and all of the events, and get onto the convention floor.
我可以参加所有的早餐会、所有的活动，然后进入会议厅。
And so, what does that mean?
那么，这意味着什么呢？
What do you think you're going to be doing?
你认为你会做什么？
Well, really just showing them that there are gay Republicans out there, that there needs to be a big tent approach, in order to win over the broader public, the suburban voters that are much more moderate.
好吧，实际上只是向他们展示，那里有同性恋共和党人，需要采取大帐篷的方式，才能赢得更广泛的公众，即温和得多的郊区选民。
In his experience talking to Republicans, which is considerable, this is the most effective sell, that tolerance wins elections.
根据他与共和党人交谈的丰富经验，这是最有效的推销，即宽容赢得选举。
1.1 million gays and lesbians voted for President Bush in the year 2000, just a fourth of the gay vote overall, but enough to make a difference for the president.
2000 年，有 110 万同性恋者投票支持布什总统，仅占同性恋选民总数的四分之一，但足以对总统产生影响。
In Florida, that works out to nearly 50,000 votes, the Log Cabin Republicans say.
Log Cabin 共和党人表示，在佛罗里达州，这相当于近 50,000 张选票。
Patrick is in his 30s, an attorney in Orlando.
帕特里克 30 多岁，是奥兰多的一名律师。
Until a few years ago he was married.
直到几年前，他才结婚。
He has a little boy from that marriage.
他在那次婚姻中生了一个小男孩。
Then he came out.
然后他就出来了。
He has always been a Republican, and agrees with the president on pretty much everything, he says, except gay issues.
他说，他一直是共和党人，在几乎所有事情上都同意总统的观点，除了同性恋问题。
The treatment that he gets in his own party has varied quite a bit.
他在自己的党派中所受到的待遇有很大不同。
For instance, county Republican leaders specifically reached out and invited Patrick to run for the state assembly two years ago, in a district in Orlando that's mostly Democrats and gay-friendly.
例如，县共和党领导人两年前专门主动联系并邀请帕特里克在奥兰多的一个主要是民主党人和同性恋友好的地区竞选州议会议员。
The State Party gave him the maximum, $50,000, and hooked him up with another $50,000 in third party ads.
缔约国给了他最高额 50,000 美元，并通过第三方广告为他提供了另外 50,000 美元的奖励。
But then the Republican who used to hold that seat actually endorsed Patrick's Democratic opponent in the race, rather than support a gay candidate.
但后来，曾经占据该席位的共和党人实际上在竞选中支持了帕特里克的民主党对手，而不是支持同性恋候选人。
Patrick has gotten some nasty emails, saying, why don't you leave the party?
帕特里克收到了一些令人讨厌的电子邮件，内容是，你为什么不离开聚会呢？
You're not wanted.
你不受欢迎。
But the nastiness, he says, happens less often than you'd think.
但他说，这种肮脏的事情发生的频率比你想象的要少。
One-on-one, he finds most Republicans are glad to sit down and talk to him.
他发现大多数共和党人都乐意坐下来与他一对一交谈。
You know, people that just know you on the fringe, but then you end up sitting at a voter registration booth with them for four hours on a Saturday.
你知道，人们只是在边缘认识你，但你最终会在周六和他们一起坐在选民登记处四个小时。
And suddenly that person leaves really knowing everything about me.
突然间，那个人离开了，他真的了解我的一切。
And Patrick, what do you find in that kind of situation, that tends to change people's mind?
帕特里克，在这种情况下，你发现什么可以改变人们的想法？
I think that it's just the realization that I'm not that different from themselves.
我认为这只是意识到我和他们并没有那么不同。
And so, basically, you talk about your kid.
所以，基本上，你谈论的是你的孩子。
You talk about going to church.
你谈论去教堂。
Right.
正确的。
Right.
正确的。
Speaker 1 During this extraordinary and even challenging moment, we have discovered who our friends are.
演讲者 1 在这个非凡甚至充满挑战的时刻，我们发现了谁是我们的朋友。
And with us today, our friend and yours, Mayor Michael Bloomberg.
今天和我们在一起的还有我们的朋友和您的朋友迈克尔·布隆伯格市长。
In New York, the first Republican Convention event that Patrick attended was run by his own organization, the Log Cabin Republicans.
在纽约，帕特里克参加的第一次共和党大会活动是由他自己的组织“小木屋共和党”主办的。
In the wake of their defeats at the Platform Committee, they staged what they called the Big Tent Event, with as many high-profile mainstream politicians as they could sign up.
在平台委员会失利后，他们举办了所谓的“大帐篷活动”，尽可能多的知名主流政客报名参加。
The very liberal-minded Republican Mayor of New York, Michael Bloomberg, kicked things off to a room with a few hundred people in it, which for gay Republicans, is a huge turnout.
思想非常自由的纽约共和党市长迈克尔·布隆伯格(Michael Bloomberg)在一个有几百人的房间里拉开了序幕，这对于同性恋共和党人来说，是一个巨大的投票率。
As the host of this reception, I want to tell you that a few years ago, I used this event as an occasion to come out, as a Republican, you should know.
作为这次招待会的主持人，我想告诉大家，几年前，我以这次活动为契机，出柜了，作为一个共和党人，你应该知道。
The mayor talked about inclusiveness being the future of the Party, and about how constitutional amendments shouldn't be used to divide people.
市长谈到包容性是党的未来，并谈到宪法修正案不应被用来分裂人民。
New York governor Pataki, who is such a rising star in the party, that he was the one who introduced President Bush at the convention later in the week, who is a possible 2008 presidential contender himself, felt enough solidarity with the gay Republicans to show up at this event, but not enough solidarity to actually mention in his remarks inclusiveness, the place of gays in the party, the place of moderates in the party, gay marriage, homosexuals, or really any other Log Cabin issues at all.
纽约州州长帕塔基是党内一颗冉冉升起的新星，本周晚些时候他在大会上介绍了布什总统，而布什本人也可能是2008年总统候选人。帕塔基感到自己对同性恋共和党人有足够的声援，因此出席了这次活动，但没有足够的声援在他的讲话中实际提及包容性、同性恋在党内的地位、温和派在党内的地位、同性婚姻、同性恋者或任何其他小木屋问题。
It was the sort of speech he could have given to any group of Republicans.
这是他可以向任何共和党团体发表的演讲。
We are going to have a great week here in New York.
我们将在纽约度过愉快的一周。
And we are going to have a celebration of the greatest city in the world.
我们将为世界上最伟大的城市举办庆祝活动。
And at the end of that week, I hope you leave with a little more-- Wait, I didn't mean it that way.
在那周结束时，我希望你离开时能多带一点——等等，我不是那个意思。
The surprise stars of the day were Arlen Specter and William Weld.
当天令人惊喜的明星是阿伦·斯佩克特 (Arlen Spectre) 和威廉·韦尔德 (William Weld)。
Senator Specter, a Republican from Pennsylvania, said that he didn't know, and he didn't care, if supporting gay rights would help Republicans win elections.
来自宾夕法尼亚州的共和党参议员斯佩克特表示，他不知道，也不在乎支持同性恋权利是否有助于共和党赢得选举。
These are fundamental rights, he said.
他说，这些都是基本权利。
Then came William Weld, former governor of Massachusetts, another possible presidential candidate for 2008.
然后是马萨诸塞州前州长威廉·韦尔德（William Weld），他是 2008 年另一位可能的总统候选人。
If you've heard President Bush rail against activist judges legalizing marriage, Governor Weld would remind you that some of those judges are Republican appointees, including the head of the Massachusetts Supreme Court, who he appointed, and who legalized gay marriage in that state.
如果你听过布什总统抱怨婚姻合法化的激进法官，韦尔德州长会提醒你，其中一些法官是共和党任命的，包括他任命的马萨诸塞州最高法院院长，也是该州同性婚姻合法化的人。
Weld talked about his gay and lesbian friends, about gay and lesbian members of his own administration in Massachusetts.
韦尔德谈到了他的同性恋朋友，以及他自己的马萨诸塞州政府中的同性恋成员。
As a matter of fact, it was my pleasure to return to Massachusetts in June of this year to marry my former chief of staff, Kevin Smith, and a former cabinet member, Mitchell Adams.
事实上，我很高兴今年六月回到马萨诸塞州，与我的前幕僚长凯文·史密斯和前内阁成员米切尔·亚当斯结婚。
And from there, the Republican Weld laid out a position on gay marriage that is far more liberal than the supposedly super liberal John Kerry's position.
从那时起，共和党韦尔德就同性婚姻提出了比所谓的超级自由派约翰·克里的立场更加自由的立场。
Kerry opposes gay marriage.
克里反对同性婚姻。
Let me just say one word about the federal constitutional amendment on gay marriage.
让我简单谈谈关于同性婚姻的联邦宪法修正案。
You know, I've been invited to oppose this amendment on states' rights grounds, on the ground that this should be left to the states.
你知道，我被邀请以州权为由反对这项修正案，理由是这应该留给各州。
And I've jumped over that issue.
我已经跳过了这个问题。
I prefer to oppose this amendment on substantive grounds, on the merit.
我更愿意基于实质性理由、基于案情来反对这项修正案。
It's the conservative point of view.
这是保守的观点。
It's making the same demands on gays and lesbians that are made on everyone else when they want to commit to each other.
当同性恋者想要彼此承诺时，它对其他人提出了同样的要求。
To me, it's kind of obvious.
对我来说，这是显而易见的。
And the fact that some people have gay and lesbian preferences is not something that's going to be changed based on what somebody in the legislature says.
事实上，有些人有同性恋偏好，这不会因为立法机关中某人的言论而改变。
And I don't know whether the percentage of the population is 10%, or 5%, or 15%, or 1%.
而且我不知道占人口的比例是10%，还是5%，还是15%，还是1%。
It doesn't matter.
没关系。
You're not going to repeal biology in the United States Senate or the House, no matter what you do.
无论你做什么，你都不会在美国参议院或众议院废除生物学。
Patrick was one of the people clapping enthusiastically when Weld said that, and when Arlen Specter talked about gay rights being a matter of principle.
当韦尔德说这句话时，当阿伦·斯佩克特谈到同性恋权利是一个原则问题时，帕特里克是热烈鼓掌的人之一。
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
It was just nice to be able to hear it articulated by someone that has a national presence.
很高兴能够听到一个在全国范围内都有影响力的人阐述这一点。
Yeah, when he said that, again, I was just like, wow, I don't know if I've ever heard anyone say that, Democrat or Republican.
是的，当他再次这么说时，我就想，哇，我不知道我是否听过有人这么说过，无论是民主党人还是共和党人。
I don't think I have either.
我想我也没有。
And it's wonderful to hear.
很高兴听到这个消息。
I've never heard that.
我从来没有听说过。
You've never heard that.
你从来没有听说过。
Patrick Howell No. It's totally amazing.
帕特里克·豪厄尔 不，这太棒了。
I mean that's not even the message that we send.
我的意思是，这甚至不是我们发送的信息。
We send the message that hey, this is the thing that's going to increase our party numbers.
我们传达的信息是，嘿，这将增加我们的聚会人数。
And it's the thing that's going to make our party the majority party.
这将使我们的政党成为多数党。
We try to appeal to the brain, as opposed to the heart.
我们试图吸引大脑，而不是心灵。
But I don't know.
但我不知道。
Maybe we need to start appealing to both.
也许我们需要开始吸引两者。
At the convention one night, at Madison Square Garden, I hovered around Patrick as he walked up to seven different groups of Republicans, wearing his Log Cabin inclusion pin.
一天晚上，在麦迪逊广场花园举行的大会上，帕特里克戴着他的小木屋包容徽章走向七组不同的共和党人，我在他身边徘徊。
A lady from Texas in a red cowboy hat and red boots and a handsome couple from Virginia both pretty much iced Patrick when the subject of gay marriage came up, which Patrick took as opposition to gay marriage.
当帕特里克提出同性婚姻的话题时，一位戴着红色牛仔帽和红色靴子的来自德克萨斯州的女士和一对来自弗吉尼亚州的英俊夫妇都对帕特里克表现出冷淡的态度，帕特里克认为同性婚姻是对同性婚姻的反对。
A young African American guy was for gay marriage, as were two rich people from Miami.
一名年轻的非裔美国人支持同性婚姻，两名来自迈阿密的富人也支持同性婚姻。
One of them turned out to be gay.
其中一人原来是同性恋。
And the other, his friend, turned out to be a big Republican donor, on the chairman's advisory board.
另一个人，他的朋友，原来是共和党的大捐助者，是主席顾问委员会的成员。
Three other people that Patrick approached fell into kind of a gray area, against gay marriage, but in ways that gave him some kind of sliver of hope.
帕特里克接触的另外三个人陷入了灰色地带，反对同性婚姻，但这给了他一丝希望。
There was this family from Utah, who seemed open to the idea of civil unions.
有一个来自犹他州的家庭，他们似乎对民事结合的想法持开放态度。
And there was this Korean War vet.
还有一位朝鲜战争老兵。
I have no problem with people who are gay, or lesbians, or whatever.
我对男同性恋、女同性恋或其他什么人没有意见。
But I don't think they should get married.
但我认为他们不应该结婚。
I think they should live together, have a lot of the protections of marriage, but I think that a marriage should be between a man a woman.
我认为他们应该生活在一起，有很多婚姻的保护，但我认为婚姻应该是男人和女人之间的。
So I may not be with you altogether.
所以我可能不会完全和你在一起。
Civil unions were fine with him, though.
不过，民事工会对他很好。
Patrick says that ever since Republicans started talking about outlawing gay marriage, at the federal level, tons of Republicans have been supporting civil unions, to a degree that he'd never imagined five years ago.
帕特里克说，自从共和党人开始在联邦层面讨论取缔同性婚姻以来，大量共和党人一直支持民事结合，其程度是他五年前从未想象过的。
He was very hopeful about the vet.
他对兽医充满希望。
He's one of those people that if he makes those inclusive-minded statements that he did, he's about 90% there.
他是这样的人之一，如果他做出了那些具有包容性的言论，那么他大约 90% 都做到了。
He's there on civil unions.
他是民事工会的成员。
He's there on not being bigoted towards gays and lesbians.
他对男同性恋和女同性恋不抱有偏见。
So it's encouraging.
所以这是令人鼓舞的。
He looked to be in his 60s.
他看起来 60 多岁。
And if we have 60-year-old white, male veterans that are moving in towards our direction, that's a very good sign.
如果我们有 60 岁的白人男性退伍军人朝着我们的方向前进，那是一个非常好的迹象。
Hi.
你好。
I'm Patrick Howell.
我是帕特里克·豪厄尔。
Cindy White Cindy White, North Carolina.
辛迪·怀特 辛迪·怀特，北卡罗来纳州。
From Orlando, Florida.
来自佛罗里达州奥兰多。
Cindy White Oh, Greensboro, North Carolina.
辛迪·怀特 哦，北卡罗来纳州格林斯博罗。
Oh, OK.
哦，好吧。
Nice to meet you.
很高兴见到你。
Ira Glass Cindy White tells Patrick that Republicans in North Carolina are mostly against gay marriage.
艾拉·格拉斯·辛迪·怀特告诉帕特里克，北卡罗来纳州的共和党人大多反对同性婚姻。
It's the Bible Belt, she says.
这是圣经带，她说。
What would it take, do you think, to move you personally on the Federal Marriage Amendment?
您认为怎样才能让您个人支持联邦婚姻修正案？
Oh, my brother-in-law lives in Key West and is gay.
哦，我的姐夫住在基韦斯特，是同性恋。
Oh, OK.
哦，好吧。
Cindy White It doesn't mean I approve of marriage.
辛迪·怀特 这并不意味着我赞成婚姻。
But he's gay, and I approve of him.
但他是同性恋，我赞成他。
Right.
正确的。
Cindy White He hasn't married anyone.
辛迪·怀特 他还没有和任何人结婚。
Doesn't want to, that I know of.
据我所知，不愿意。
But does have a partner.
但确实有一个伙伴。
But it's just something I'm not ready to say exactly where I feel on it.
但这只是我还没准备好确切地说出我的感受。
You might still be working on it, yourself.
你自己可能仍在努力。
Right.
正确的。
Ira Glass At the end of talking to all these Republicans, the score was two against Patrick and gay rights, two for Patrick and gay rights, and three, like this last woman, that seemed like they might come around some day.
艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 在与所有这些共和党人交谈结束时，分数是两分反对帕特里克和同性恋权利，两分支持帕特里克和同性恋权利，三分，就像最后一位女士一样，似乎他们有一天可能会改变。
Patrick felt pretty good.
帕特里克感觉很好。
His sense, in general, is that people are more flexible than you know.
总的来说，他的感觉是人们比你想象的更灵活。
I don't think that self-described social conservatives are as monolithic as a lot of people think.
我不认为自称为社会保守派的人像很多人想象的那样铁板一块。
I think you do have social conservatives that keep an open mind, and may be very conservative in their religious views and whatnot, but at the same time have gay friends, and understand that they need to move a little bit on some of those issues.
我认为你们确实有保持开放心态的社会保守派，他们的宗教观点和其他观点可能非常保守，但同时也有同性恋朋友，并且明白他们需要在其中一些问题上采取一些行动。
I think that's true more than it's not true.
我认为这是真的，而不是假的。
If you think about it, how many situations are there, where arch-conservative Christians and homosexuals sit down together and really hash things out.
如果你想一想，有多少种情况是极端保守的基督徒和同性恋者坐在一起真正讨论问题的。
That's the point, Patrick says.
帕特里克说，这就是重点。
We're inside the fortress.
我们在堡垒里面。
We're in these people's lives.
我们就在这些人的生活中。
We're talking to them.
我们正在和他们交谈。
If anybody's going to get to these very conservative people on gay issues, it's going to be gay Republicans, not the protesters and activists who are outside the fortress.
如果有人要在同性恋问题上与这些非常保守的人接触，那将是同性恋共和党人，而不是堡垒外的抗议者和活动人士。
Act Two, Right and Righter.
第二幕，正确与更正确。
To understand the rise of the Republican Party over the last 20 years, one place you can look is Alabama, where they've made huge strides.
要了解共和党在过去 20 年的崛起，你可以看看阿拉巴马州，他们在那里取得了巨大的进步。
If there is a religious and a nonreligious wing of the party, this is definitely the religious wing.
如果党内有宗教派和非宗教派，那么这绝对是宗教派。
Of the 48 delegates Alabama sent to the Republican Convention in New York, not one was pro-choice.
阿拉巴马州派往纽约共和党代表大会的 48 名代表中，没有一位支持堕胎。
Nationally, one out of three Republican Voters is pro-choice.
在全国范围内，三分之一的共和党选民支持堕胎。
70% of the state identifies itself as born-again Christian, versus 40% nationally.
该州 70% 的人认为自己是重生的基督徒，而全国这一比例为 40%。
Alex Blumberg visited with the Alabama Republican Party.
亚历克斯·布隆伯格拜访了阿拉巴马州共和党。
Marty Connors is the state chairman of the Republican Party in Alabama.
马蒂·康纳斯是阿拉巴马州共和党的州主席。
He says that for Alabama, he's a moderate.
他说，对于阿拉巴马州来说，他是温和派。
He supports the war in Iraq 100%.
他100%支持伊拉克战争。
He's opposed to any and all taxes.
他反对任何和所有的税收。
He wants Roe v.
他想要罗伊诉。
Wade to be overturned.
韦德被翻盘。
And he would welcome prayer back into the public schools.
他欢迎祈祷重新回到公立学校。
But this is the state residents proudly call the buckle of the Bible Belt.
但这是该州居民自豪地称之为“圣经腰带”的带扣。
So Marty Connors sometimes finds himself the most liberal person in the room.
因此，马蒂·康纳斯有时发现自己是房间里最自由的人。
A few years back, I was at a convention doing some whip work.
几年前，我在一次大会上做一些鞭子工作。
And one of the delegates, who will go unnamed, felt that former President Bush-- who was then going to be vice president-- just wasn't conservative enough to be on the ticket.
一位不愿透露姓名的代表认为，当时即将成为副总统的前总统布什不够保守，无法参加竞选。
So he was going to support Gene Kirkpatrick for vice president, as opposed to George Bush.
因此，他将支持吉恩·柯克帕特里克（Gene Kirkpatrick）竞选副总统，而不是乔治·布什（George Bush）。
Which, Gene's great, but there's a time and place for everything.
吉恩很棒，但凡事都有时间和地点。
And that would have meant, literally, what?
从字面上看，这意味着什么？
Well, Alabama being in the first state in the Union that has to-- the first state in the roll call, it would have looked a little awkward not having a unanimous-- So we decided to put him in a room, one-on-one with Jesse Helms for a little while, just to talk some sense, that kind of thing.
好吧，阿拉巴马州是联邦中第一个必须这样做的州——也是点名中的第一个州，如果没有达成一致的话，看起来会有点尴尬——所以我们决定把他放在一个房间里，与杰西·赫尔姆斯一对一地聊一会儿，只是为了谈谈一些道理，诸如此类的事情。
So Jesse spent about 30 minutes with him.
于是杰西和他一起度过了大约30分钟。
And the young man comes out of the room.
年轻人从房间里走了出来。
And I said well, is everything fine?
我说好吧，一切都好吗？
He said, oh, yeah.
他说，哦，是的。
Everything's really fine.
一切都真的很好。
And I said, well, good.
我说，好吧，很好。
We'll have your support?
我们会得到你的支持吗？
He said, no, I'm still going to vote against you.
他说，不，我还是会投反对票。
And I said, well, why?
我说，好吧，为什么？
And he said, well, Jesse Helms just doesn't completely understand the conservative movement.
他说，好吧，杰西·赫尔姆斯并不完全理解保守派运动。
So that's how it went.
事情就是这样。
There are two informal wings in the Alabama Republican Party.
阿拉巴马州共和党内有两个非正式派别。
This is Jim Zeigler, founder of a group called The League of Christian Voters, which represents the right wing of Alabama's right wing.
这是吉姆·齐格勒，基督教选民联盟的创始人，该联盟代表阿拉巴马州右翼的右翼。
There is an establishment, party official, chamber of commerce, business council, internationalist wing.
有一个机构、党官员、商会、商业委员会、国际主义翼。
And then there is the conservative Christian, adamantly pro-life, pro-family wing.
还有保守的基督教派，坚决反对堕胎、支持家庭。
Right now, the right wing, of which I am a part, is not in control of the party machinery.
目前，我所属的右翼并没有控制党的机构。
And I have appointed myself as the coordinator of the movement to take back the Republican Party for Republican principles.
我还任命自己为为共和党原则夺回共和党运动的协调员。
Of course, in Alabama, both wings of the party are pro-life and begin their meetings with a prayer.
当然，在阿拉巴马州，该党的两翼都反对堕胎，并以祈祷开始会议。
So it can be a little hard to tell the two sides apart.
因此，区分两者可能有点困难。
The difference is mainly one of priorities.
差异主要在于优先级之一。
Business Republicans pray a lot, but Jim Zeigler's wing wants God to be at the very center of everything the government does.
商界共和党人经常祈祷，但吉姆·齐格勒的派别希望上帝成为政府所做一切事情的核心。
In other words, it's the wing of Judge Roy Moore.
换句话说，这是罗伊摩尔法官的翅膀。
Remember him?
还记得他吗？
He was the Alabama chief justice who installed a 5,000 pound monument of the 10 Commandments in the state courthouse, and then was told to remove it by his own Republican-dominated bench.
他是阿拉巴马州首席大法官，在州法院安装了一座重 5,000 磅的十诫纪念碑，然后被他自己的共和党主导的法官要求将其拆除。
He later lost a job over it.
后来他因此丢掉了工作。
Lots of Republicans didn't support Moore, or found him a little embarrassing.
许多共和党人不支持摩尔，或者觉得他有点尴尬。
But the fact that the party didn't go to bat for him galvanized Jim Zeigler.
但事实上，该党并没有支持他，这一事实激怒了吉姆·齐格勒。
He started The League of Christian Voters to try and get more Republicans like Judge Moore elected.
他成立了基督教选民联盟，试图让更多像摩尔法官这样的共和党人当选。
The Republican Party does not need to have a broad tent.
共和党不需要有一个宽阔的帐篷。
We need to focus on the issues of Republican principles.
我们需要关注共和党原则问题。
Here's how the Christian wing is doing so far.
以下是基督教派迄今为止的表现。
Out of three races for state judge this summer in the Republican Primary, they won one.
今年夏天，在共和党初选的三场州法官竞选中，他们赢得了一场。
And they make up about a third of the delegates at the Republican National Convention, 17 out of 48.
他们约占共和党全国代表大会代表的三分之一，占 48 名代表中的 17 名。
One of those 17 was Zeigler himself, who became a delegate in a very symbolic race.
齐格勒本人就是这 17 人中的一员，他成为了一场非常具有象征意义的竞选的代表。
He beat a man named Perry Hooper, Sr., who was one of the founders of the modern GOP in Alabama, the first Republican ever elected to the State Supreme Court, and one of the most respected centrists in the entire party.
他击败了一位名叫老佩里·胡珀（Perry Hooper, Sr.）的人，后者是阿拉巴马州现代共和党的创始人之一，也是第一位当选州最高法院法官的共和党人，也是全党最受尊敬的中间派之一。
After his loss, Hooper called Zeigler an embarrassment to Christianity.
失去他之后，胡珀称齐格勒是基督教的耻辱。
At this time, Bradley Byrne, state senator, will lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance.
此时，州参议员布拉德利·伯恩将带领我们宣读效忠誓言。
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America.
我宣誓效忠美利坚合众国国旗。
On a Thursday night in the break room of Warrior Tractor, a farm equipment retailer in Monroeville, Alabama, I got a chance to see the moderate wing of the Republican Party.
周四晚上，在阿拉巴马州门罗维尔农用设备零售商 Warrior Tractor 的休息室里，我有机会见到了共和党的温和派。
This is the largest meeting ever of the Monroe County Chapter of the Republican Party.
这是共和党门罗县分会有史以来规模最大的一次会议。
People are turning Republican in Alabama faster than the Party infrastructure can keep up with them.
在阿拉巴马州，人们转向共和党的速度超过了党的基础设施跟上他们的速度。
For over a century, the state, like all its southern neighbors, had voted exclusively Democratic.
一个多世纪以来，该州与所有南部邻国一样，只投票给民主党。
You could fit all the Republicans in the state into one room, I'm told over and over again.
人们一遍又一遍地告诉我，你可以把该州所有的共和党人都安排在一个房间里。
As late as 1992, Democrats controlled both of Alabama's seats in the US Senate, and five of the seven in the House of Representatives.
直到 1992 年，民主党控制了阿拉巴马州在美国参议院的两个席位，以及众议院七个席位中的五个。
Today, just a decade later, it's reversed.
仅仅十年后的今天，情况发生了逆转。
Five of the seven representatives and both senators are Republican, not to mention the governor and most of the State Supreme Court.
七名代表中的五名和两名参议员都是共和党人，更不用说州长和州最高法院的大部分成员了。
There are about 100 people here, nibbling at pot luck offerings from Tupperware containers and casserole dishes.
这里大约有 100 人，正在品尝特百惠容器和砂锅菜中的便餐。
Mostly they're small business people.
他们大多是小企业主。
And mostly they want the standard Republican wish list.
他们大多想要标准的共和党愿望清单。
Smaller government, lower taxes, stronger military.
更小的政府，更低的税收，更强大的军队。
But at some level, the issues are only part of the Republican draw.
但在某种程度上，这些问题只是共和党吸引力的一部分。
Kay Ivey, the state's first Republican treasurer, and featured speaker, puts it this way.
该州第一位共和党财长兼特邀演讲者凯·艾维 (Kay Ivey) 是这样说的。
You see, we in this room come from a same set of values.
你看，我们在这个房间里都具有相同的价值观。
We cherish family, and patriotism, and hard work, and home ownership, and family and friends, and, goodness knows, the right to cook and eat.
我们珍惜家庭、爱国主义、辛勤工作、拥有房屋、家人和朋友，还有，天知道，做饭和吃饭的权利。
Y'all have done great.
你们都做得很好。
But you know, we care about people.
但你知道，我们关心人。
And the president has the values that we have in this room tonight.
总统拥有我们今晚在座的价值观。
And that's a clear distinction from his opponent.
这与他的对手有着明显的区别。
Later, a woman at the meeting tells me she can imagine George Bush walking right into this room, filled with these people, and fitting right in.
后来，一位参加会议的女士告诉我，她可以想象乔治·布什径直走进这个房间，里面挤满了这些人，并且融入其中。
But try as she might, she can't imagine John Kerry here.
但无论她如何努力，她都无法想象约翰·克里在这里。
And actually, neither can I.
事实上，我也不能。
Although Monroe County is almost 40% black, the crowd here is all white.
尽管门罗县几乎有 40% 是黑人，但这里的人群却全是白人。
And everyone admits the Party doesn't do too well with black people in Alabama.
每个人都承认该党在阿拉巴马州对黑人的态度不太好。
19 out of every 20 black votes goes to a Democrat.
每 20 张黑人选票中有 19 张投给了民主党。
And the state chairman was actually booed during a speech at Tuskegee University, when he mentioned Condoleezza Rice.
州主席在塔斯基吉大学演讲时提到康多莉扎·赖斯时，实际上遭到了嘘声。
Mainly this is historical.
这主要是历史原因。
Lots of white voters in the South switched to the Republicans because of Democratic Party support for civil rights in the 60s.
由于民主党在 60 年代支持民权，南方许多白人选民转向共和党。
Today though, when a person with openly racist views decides to run on the Republican ticket, one Republican operative told me, the Party funnels back-channel money to the Democratic opponents, to make sure he doesn't get elected.
然而今天，当一个持有公开种族主义观点的人决定以共和党的名义参选时，一名共和党工作人员告诉我，该党会向民主党对手输送秘密资金，以确保他不会当选。
And when visiting reporters come to town, the Party leadership introduces them to Shirrell Roberts, one of the black pioneers in the Alabama Republican Party.
当来访的记者来到镇上时，党的领导层将他们介绍给雪瑞尔·罗伯茨（Shirrell Roberts），她是阿拉巴马州共和党的黑人先驱之一。
Shirrell's parents lived through the civil rights struggles in Alabama.
雪雷尔的父母经历了阿拉巴马州的民权斗争。
And he lives in Montgomery, which is where, you remember, Martin Luther King's church was located, freedom riders were beaten at the bus station, and Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat.
他住在蒙哥马利，你记得，那里是马丁·路德·金教堂的所在地，自由乘车者在公交车站遭到殴打，罗莎·帕克斯拒绝让座。
I can understand the generation that was there, that lived it.
我能理解那里的那一代人，他们的生活。
I can understand the blacks that had the hose turned on them, the dogs put on them, absolutely.
我绝对能理解黑人被水管打开、狗给他们穿上的情况。
I don't expect those folks to get over it.
我不指望那些人能克服它。
And well, they shouldn't.
好吧，他们不应该这样做。
And I understand exactly the hesitancy of a lot of blacks to say, hey, why would I want to join up with this group when you have the Willie Horton thing, Jesse Helms, what Trent Lott said about Strom Thurmond?
我完全理解很多黑人的犹豫，他们会说，嘿，当你有威利·霍顿、杰西·赫尔姆斯、特伦特·洛特对斯特罗姆·瑟蒙德的评价时，我为什么要加入这个团体？
Those type of things, specifically those, when I hear them, I'm like, look, that's not representative of our party.
这类事情，特别是那些，当我听到它们时，我想，看，这并不代表我们党。
Shirrell's car has a Bush-Cheney bumper sticker.
谢雷尔的汽车保险杠上贴有布什-切尼的贴纸。
Driving around the neighborhood, he's been called a sellout and an Uncle Tom.
他开车在附近转悠，被称为“出卖者”和“汤姆叔叔”。
He gets in political arguments with his Democrat mom all the time.
他总是和他的民主党妈妈发生政治争论。
Shirrell realized he was a Republican while watching the 1984 Democratic Convention with his family, when he heard Walter Mondale promise to raise taxes.
1984 年，当 Shirrell 与家人一起观看民主党代表大会时，当他听到 Walter Mondale 承诺提高税收时，他意识到自己是共和党人。
Even as a kid, in a house of Mondale supporters, he hated that idea, proof that some people are just born Republican.
甚至当他还是个孩子的时候，在蒙代尔支持者的家里，他就讨厌这个想法，这证明有些人天生就是共和党人。
Shirrell says that old-guard segregationists still occasionally show up in the party.
谢雷尔说，保守派种族隔离主义者仍然偶尔出现在党内。
But whenever I run into people like that, I just tell them, look, this country has changed.
但每当我遇到这样的人，我就会告诉他们，看，这个国家已经改变了。
There is no way that you're going to be able to win an election anywhere with just a white vote.
仅仅靠白人选票是不可能在任何地方赢得选举的。
You aren't going to do it.
你不会这么做的。
You aren't going do it.
你不会这么做的。
And if that's your vision of our party, we will be the minority party for the rest of this century.
如果这就是您对我们党的愿景，那么我们将在本世纪余下的时间里成为少数党。
Shirrell is pro-life, wants smaller government.
谢雷尔是反堕胎人士，希望缩小政府规模。
He's for the war in Iraq.
他支持伊拉克战争。
But most of our conversation was spent on the subject of inequality-- racial and economic inequality-- which isn't one of your usual Republican talking points.
但我们的大部分谈话都集中在不平等问题上——种族和经济不平等——这不是共和党人通常谈论的话题之一。
If there's a problem in the black community, it affects the white community as well.
如果黑人社区出现问题，也会影响白人社区。
If there's a problem in the white community, it affects the black community.
如果白人社区出现问题，就会影响黑人社区。
And people have to realize we're all in this thing together.
人们必须意识到我们都在一起。
Let's not have one community very prosperous, but over here have another segment of the community that's not doing well.
我们不会让一个社区非常繁荣，但这里的另一部分社区却表现不佳。
I don't have a responsibility to educate a child here in Montgomery.
我没有责任在蒙哥马利教育孩子。
I live 150 miles away.
我住在 150 英里之外。
My wife and I have two children.
我和我的妻子有两个孩子。
I don't have children with anybody else.
我没有和别人生孩子。
I'm responsible for educating them.
我负责教育他们。
You have to hand it to a political party that can claim both of these guys as loyal members.
你必须把它交给一个可以声称这两个人都是忠实成员的政党。
Steven King is a self-described right wing Christian and the chairman of the Blount County Republican Party.
史蒂文·金自称是右翼基督徒，也是布朗特县共和党主席。
On most issues, it's not that he and Shirrell believe different things, it's just that Steven King believes them more.
在大多数问题上，并不是他和雪瑞尔相信不同的事情，而是史蒂文·金更相信他们。
He's more of a free marketeer, thinks government should almost not exist, and on religious issues, he's less of a compromiser.
他更像是一个自由市场主义者，认为政府几乎不应该存在，并且在宗教问题上，他不是一个妥协者。
I would rather be right on an issue and lose, than be wrong and win.
我宁愿在某个问题上正确而失败，也不愿在问题上错误而获胜。
We misuse the word big tent, I think.
我认为我们误用了“大帐篷”这个词。
I'm sure there are people in the Republican Party are homosexuals.
我确信共和党中有同性恋者。
You've got the Log Cabin Republicans.
你有小木屋共和党人。
They want to become Republicans, fine.
他们想成为共和党人，好吧。
My viewpoint is we're still going to have a position on our plank that we're not going to be for homosexual marriage.
我的观点是，我们仍然会坚持我们不会支持同性婚姻的立场。
People in the Christian wing, like Steven King, because they're motivated by their idealism and care less about political majorities, can find themselves in a paradoxical position.
像史蒂文·金这样的基督教派人士，因为受到理想主义的激励而不太关心政治多数，可能会发现自己处于一个矛盾的境地。
They're the Party's most conservative members.
他们是党内最保守的成员。
But sometimes they sound like its most liberal critics.
但有时他们听起来像是最自由派的批评者。
Steven King, for example, doesn't trust the Patriot Act.
例如，史蒂文·金（Steven King）就不信任《爱国者法案》。
He's opposed to tort reform, and don't even get him started about that secret meeting Dick Cheney held a while back with energy industry representatives.
他反对侵权法改革，甚至不让他开始谈论迪克·切尼不久前与能源行业代表举行的秘密会议。
The vice president has refused to release even a list of the people who attended.
副总统甚至拒绝透露出席人员的名单。
And Steven King says that's the same type of thing that Republicans got mad at President Clinton about when he appointed his wife, Hillary, to head a panel on health care.
史蒂文·金说，当克林顿总统任命他的妻子希拉里领导一个医疗保健小组时，共和党人对他感到愤怒，这也是同样的事情。
Who are these people?
这些人是谁？
It's my tax money.
这是我的税钱。
Too many people on my side of the aisle, or my side of the position, and the other side of the spectrum, I don't think are intellectually honest.
我认为有太多的人在我的立场上，或者在我的立场上，以及在光谱的另一边，在智力上并不诚实。
I mean, you can't say that when the Democrats are there and they get some health care panel together, that everything ought to be all open.
我的意思是，你不能说当民主党在那里并且他们组建了一些医疗保健小组时，一切都应该完全开放。
And Mr. Cheney comes along, and well, that's a different thing.
切尼先生出现了，嗯，那就是另一回事了。
Well, no, it's not different.
嗯，不，没什么不同。
Like many idealistic people, Steven King has a complicated relationship to politics.
和许多理想主义者一样，史蒂文·金与政治有着复杂的关系。
He's drawn to it, but he also feels let down by it.
他被它吸引，但他也感到失望。
He still remembers, as a kid, begging his parents to stay up and watch the '72 Convention on TV, to see Nixon get nominated.
他仍然记得，小时候，他恳求父母熬夜观看电视上的 72 年大会，看看尼克松获得提名。
All those people with all those deeply held convictions coming together to argue and persuade.
所有那些怀有坚定信念的人聚集在一起争论和说服。
It seemed romantic, like the first Constitutional Convention, when the country was being founded.
这看起来很浪漫，就像建国之初的第一次制宪会议一样。
I guess I thought, in some ways, that was what was going on at a convention.
我想我认为，在某种程度上，这就是一次大会上发生的事情。
I realize now that those things don't happen, or don't happen, I guess, the way that I thought about it then.
我现在意识到那些事情不会发生，或者不会发生，我猜，就像我当时的想法一样。
Was that a disappointment, to find out that they don't happen that way?
当发现事情并非如此时，你是否感到失望？
Yeah.
是的。
I was a delegate four years ago in Philadelphia.
四年前我在费城担任代表。
And I was, I guess, naive.
我想我当时很天真。
And I learned that my participation was very, very limited, almost to the point of simply being a warm body in a chair.
我了解到我的参与非常非常有限，几乎只是坐在椅子上的一个温暖的身体。
I've been a Republican my whole life.
我一生都是共产党员。
You want to have a say-so.
你想要有发言权。
This is what I believe, and this is why I believe it.
这就是我所相信的，这就是我相信的原因。
And they don't-- I don't want to say they don't want to hear it.
他们不——我不想说他们不想听。
but that's just not what you're there for.
但这不是你来这里的目的。
This, it sometimes seems, is what you are here for, to drink free booze and dance awkwardly to cover bands.
有时候，这似乎就是你来这里的目的，喝免费的酒，笨拙地跳舞，为乐队表演。
It's the week of the GOP Convention in New York.
这周是纽约共和党大会的一周。
A couple of the delegates at this party have a line on some Skynyrd tickets for later.
这次聚会的几位代表排队购买了一些 Skynyrd 门票，供稍后使用。
It's a private concert for the GOP conventioneers.
这是共和党会议代表的私人音乐会。
And even though this is the largest assembly of Republicans for the next four years, and even though there's every kind of Republican present here-- including a drunk one at the bar, who confided in me late in the evening that he's voting for Kerry-- even here, Steven King can't get what he wants.
尽管这是未来四年最大规模的共和党集会，尽管这里有各种各样的共和党人——包括酒吧里一个醉酒的人，他在深夜向我透露他将投票给克里——但即使在这里，史蒂文·金也无法得到他想要的东西。
The thing I want is for there to be debate, to be open discussion.
我想要的是进行辩论，进行公开讨论。
I want someone to allow me to try to convince them otherwise.
我希望有人允许我尝试说服他们否则。
And I'm open to be convinced otherwise.
我愿意接受其他观点。
Let's engage in debate.
我们来进行辩论吧。
Otherwise, we're just this mish mash goosh of feel good, which doesn't mean anything.
否则，我们只是感觉良好的大杂烩，没有任何意义。
That story by Alex Blumberg.
亚历克斯·布隆伯格的故事。
Coming up, Steven King gets his wish, a real debate, the kind that rarely happens in American politics.
接下来，史蒂文·金如愿以偿，一场真正的辩论，这种辩论在美国政治中很少发生。
We have him sit down with Patrick Howell, the Log Cabin Republican from the first act of our show, mano-a-mano.
我们请他与帕特里克·豪厄尔（Patrick Howell）坐在一起，他是我们节目《mano-a-mano》第一幕中的小木屋共和党人。
Who will convince whom?
谁来说服谁？
That's in the second half of our show, from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
这是芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台节目的后半部分，我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life .
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today on our program, stories about America's majority party.
今天我们的节目讲述的是有关美国多数党的故事。
And yes, they are just barely the majority.
是的，他们只是勉强大多数。
But it's the Republicans whose numbers are rising.
但共和党的人数正在增加。
In the second half of our show, we have two stories of people in this charged political environment this fall trying to come to a meeting of the minds.
在节目的后半部分，我们讲述了两个故事，讲述了人们在今年秋天紧张的政治环境中试图达成共识的故事。
We'll pick up with Alabama's Steven King again in a little bit.
稍后我们将再次采访阿拉巴马州的史蒂文·金。
Where we turn now is to a visit to a different wing of the party, people who are Republicans, but not for religious reasons, but for economic ones.
我们现在要访问党内的另一派，即共和党人，但不是出于宗教原因，而是出于经济原因。
70% of Republicans approve of the way that President Bush is handling the economy.
70%的共和党人赞同布什总统处理经济的方式。
That's versus just 22% of Democrats who approve.
相比之下，只有 22% 的民主党人表示支持。
We have arrived at Act Three of our show.
我们已经到了节目的第三幕了。
Act Three, Indecent Proposal.
第三幕，不雅求婚。
Shane DuBow tells the story of Republicans who work in a place where everyone is thinking about the economy and its ups and downs all the time.
肖恩·杜鲍 (Shane DuBow) 讲述了共和党人的故事，他们在一个每个人都无时无刻不在思考经济及其起伏的地方工作。
Every election season, a company-wide email goes out at my work.
每个选举季节，我的工作场所都会收到一封全公司范围内的电子邮件。
The email reminds everyone that our office is supposed to be a politics-free zone.
这封电子邮件提醒大家，我们的办公室应该是一个没有政治的区域。
The subtext is all about keeping things civil and productive.
其潜台词就是保持文明和富有成效。
At my friend Mike's work, that's not how they do it.
在我朋友迈克的工作中，他们不是这样做的。
Come here.
过来吧。
I want to talk to you a second.
我想和你谈谈。
Come here.
过来吧。
This is the cattle pit of the Chicago Mercantile Exchange.
这是芝加哥商品交易所的牛坑。
It's the morning after Arnold Schwarzenegger and Rudy Giuliani have given speeches at the Republican National Convention in New York.
这是阿诺·施瓦辛格和鲁迪·朱利安尼在纽约共和党全国代表大会上发表演讲后的第二天早上。
Come out here for a second, if you get a second.
如果你有时间的话，到这里来一下。
One second.
一秒钟。
You are not that busy.
你没那么忙。
Come out here.
出来吧。
He said, economic girly man That's the big refrain today.
他说，经济女汉子这是今天的大话题。
What?
什么？
They call me liberal boy.
他们称我为自由派男孩。
And they get the refrain from Schwarzenegger-- that economic girly man.
他们得到了施瓦辛格的克制——那个经济上的女孩子。
I've heard it all morning.
我整个早上都听到了。
I mean, between Giuliani's speech bashing Kerry and the economic girly man, it has been a bad two days to be down here.
我的意思是，在朱利安尼发表演讲抨击克里和这位经济少女的男人之间，这两天在这里过得很糟糕。
Put it that way.
就这样说吧。
What Mike means is that it has been a bad two days to be one of the only outspoken Democrats in a testosterone-charged pit full of some of the most right-leaning and red meat-eating traders on the floor.
迈克的意思是，作为在充满睾丸激素的坑中唯一直言不讳的民主党人之一，这两天的日子很糟糕，里面充满了一些最右倾和吃红肉的交易员。
Every day, all day, he gets heckled.
每天，一整天，他都会受到质问。
During the election season it gets worse.
在选举季节，情况会变得更糟。
With that in mind, Mike has come up with this idea, this way to win a few converts, or at least score a few political points.
考虑到这一点，迈克提出了这个想法，通过这种方式赢得一些皈依者，或者至少获得一些政治分数。
His plan?
他的计划？
Take some of these guys to see the Michael Moore movie Fahrenheit 9/11.
带这些人去看迈克尔·摩尔的电影《华氏 9/11》。
And to get them to go, he's offering cash.
为了让他们离开，他提供现金。
I'm paying $400 a crack to go.
我每次要付 400 美元。
It's $400.
这是 400 美元。
I got some takers.
我有一些接受者。
You can wager it in Vegas.
你可以在维加斯打赌。
It's $400, and I'll even throw in a drink afterwards.
价格是 400 美元，之后我什至还会喝一杯。
We're going to see Fahrenheit 9/11 .
我们要看《华氏9/11》。
Are you going to come with us?
你要和我们一起去吗？
After a month of trying and failing to make this movie thing happen, he has finally found some takers, Bill and Tom.
经过一个月的尝试和失败，他终于找到了一些接受者，比尔和汤姆。
Well, we have a long relationship.
嗯，我们的关系很长。
We have a 10-year relationship, all of us on the floor.
我们已经建立了 10 年的合作关系，我们所有人都在现场。
And it tends to be me against-- tends to be me against the pit.
这往往是我反对——往往是我反对坑。
And Tom tends to be the leader on the other side.
而汤姆往往是另一方的领导者。
And he has quite a lot of help.
而且他得到的帮助也不少。
And he's not even close to being on his soapbox yet.
而且他距离上台还差得很远。
This is Bill.
这是比尔。
Bill Two days ago we had a nice little chat.
比尔 两天前我们进行了一次愉快的交谈。
And three rows down-- we were sitting in those stadium seats way at the top-- everybody's turning around and looking up, because Mike is screaming about, "These people are lying.
往下三排——我们坐在体育场最上面的座位上——每个人都转过身来向上看，因为迈克尖叫着，“这些人在撒谎。
Did you read this in the paper?
你在报纸上读过这个吗？
They're absolutely lying!
他们绝对是在撒谎！
These Republicans--"
这些共和党人——”
The political arguments these guys get into will probably sound familiar.
这些人所涉及的政治争论可能听起来很熟悉。
There's the one about terrorism.
有一个关于恐怖主义的。
Under your man's administration for eight years, we ignored all the signs.
在你的人执政八年期间，我们忽视了所有迹象。
The one about the economy.
一个是关于经济的。
Mike You think Clinton can take credit for the tech boom?
迈克 你认为克林顿可以为科技繁荣做出贡献吗？
Are you out of your-- Oh, come one, seriously.
你是不是……哦，来吧，说真的。
No, no, no. Shane Dubow The other one about the economy.
不，不，不。 Shane Dubow 另一篇关于经济。
The junior, Bush Junior drove it into the ditch.
小布什把它开进了沟里。
I mean come on.
我的意思是来吧。
The father drove the economy into the ditch.
父亲把经济推入了深渊。
And then Bush Junior drove it into the ditch.
然后小布什把它开进了沟里。
Oh, man.
哦，伙计。
Shane Dubow And then there's whatever you call this.
Shane Dubow 然后就是无论你怎么称呼它。
Really.
真的。
Tom Oh, my God.
汤姆 噢，天啊。
That's the problem.
这就是问题所在。
You think you're a moderate.
你认为你是温和派。
I'm a moderate.
我是温和派。
I'm right in the center.
我就在正中心。
I'm a Clintonian.
我是克林顿主义者。
In fact, I love Bill Clinton.
事实上，我喜欢比尔·克林顿。
He tacked the country right to the middle.
他把这个国家推到了中间。
What?
什么？
Mike He tacked the country right--
贺军翔 (Mike He) 带领这个国家走向正确的方向——
No, no, no. He tacked-- Shane Dubow Tom is 49, tall and good looking, a former college basketball player.
不，不，不。他提到——谢恩·杜博·汤姆 (Shane Dubow Tom) 49 岁，身材高大、相貌俊美，曾是一名大学篮球运动员。
In Tom's world, the flat tax is the fairest tax, Fox is the fairest network, and nationalized health care will lead to socialism.
在汤姆的世界里，统一税是最公平的税收，福克斯是最公平的网络，国有化医疗保健将导致社会主义。
Growing up, Tom says, his family didn't have a lot of money.
汤姆说，在成长过程中，他的家人并没有很多钱。
You talk about the political girly man.
你谈论的是政治少女男人。
Hey, you know what?
嘿，你知道吗？
I put myself through college.
我让自己读完了大学。
Nobody gave me a dime.
没有人给我一毛钱。
You didn't do that.
你没有那样做。
I've been working since I was in fifth grade.
我从五年级起就开始工作了。
And no one has ever given me anything.
而且从来没有人给过我任何东西。
I don't feel sorry for people that sit around and wait for entitlements.
我并不为那些坐等权利的人感到难过。
You shouldn't call it an entitlement.
你不应该称其为权利。
It's welfare.
是福利啊
It's not entitlement.
这不是权利。
You're not entitled to squat.
你没有资格蹲着。
As for Bill, he's also an independent broker who had to work growing up.
至于比尔，他也是一名独立经纪人，从小就必须工作。
And he also doesn't think much of taxes or welfare, which brings us back to Mike, and his hopes for Michael Moore's latest movie.
他也不太考虑税收或福利，这让我们回到了迈克，以及他对迈克尔·摩尔最新电影的希望。
Fahrenheit 9/11 came out.
《华氏9/11》问世了。
All of the people, the conservatives, the people that I talked to in the pit, no one had seen the movie.
所有的人，保守派，我在坑里交谈过的人，没有人看过这部电影。
No one had seen the movie.
没有人看过这部电影。
They would critique the hell out of the movie, but they wouldn't go see it.
他们会批评这部电影，但他们不会去看它。
So I started--
所以我开始——
Is that true?
这是真的吗？
No one wanted to see the movie?
没人想看这部电影吗？
The reason for that is because you knew that, for example, Michael Moore's previous stuff.
原因是因为你知道，例如迈克尔摩尔以前的东西。
He mixes some facts with some non-facts, and this is your story.
他将一些事实与一些非事实混合在一起，这就是你的故事。
All right, hold on here.
好吧，就在这里坚持一下。
This is the kind of thing that I have to endure.
这是我必须忍受的事情。
Hold on.
坚持，稍等。
I'll say something else.
我再说点别的。
Mike OK, no, you've been talking the whole time now.
迈克：好吧，不，你一直在说话。
This is what happens in the pit.
这就是坑里发生的事情。
People are quoting everything else they read about the movie, but they won't see it, OK?
人们引用他们读到的有关这部电影的所有内容，但他们不会看，好吗？
And that is the premise that I've operated under.
这就是我运作的前提。
So the way this started is a guy that is in my next office comes in one day, is quoting the same stuff, saying, oh, it's so terrible, what Michael Moore is doing to the country with this movie.
所以这一切的开始方式是有一天我下一个办公室的一个人进来，引用了同样的东西，说，哦，这太可怕了，迈克尔·摩尔通过这部电影对这个国家做了什么。
And I say, Fred, have you seen the movie?
我说，弗雷德，你看过这部电影吗？
And he says, no, I haven't seen the movie.
他说，不，我还没看过这部电影。
I said, OK, what's it going to take to get you to go to the movie?
我说，好吧，要什么才能让你去看电影呢？
And he says, my time is worth more than going to see a movie.
他说，我的时间比看电影更有价值。
I said, well, what's your time worth?
我说，好吧，你的时间值多少钱？
He says, well, I'm paid $200 an hour as a consultant.
他说，好吧，我作为顾问的工资是每小时 200 美元。
And I said, OK.
我说，好吧。
The movie is two hours.
电影时长两个小时。
How about $400?
400 美元怎么样？
There seems like there's a political debate going on in the country, and no one's listening to each other.
这个国家似乎正在进行一场政治辩论，但没有人互相倾听。
So one side talks to their brethren, the other side talks to their brethren, and we're not having any cross-fertilization.
因此，一方与他们的兄弟交谈，另一方与他们的兄弟交谈，我们没有任何交叉。
There's no dialogue happening.
没有对话发生。
And one of the most fundamental things in a democracy is to have a dialogue.
民主国家最基本的事情之一就是进行对话。
Even before the main feature, it's clear Bill and Tom are ready to find liberal plots behind whatever they see.
甚至在主要特征之前，很明显比尔和汤姆已经准备好在他们所看到的一切背后找到自由主义阴谋。
Example.
例子。
When a preview for the new shark movie Open Water comes on, and a young couple is shown treading water, Tom and Bill make jokes about Chappaquiddick.
当新的鲨鱼电影《开放水域》的预告片上映时，一对年轻夫妇正在踩水，汤姆和比尔拿查帕奎迪克开玩笑。
I asked Mike for a few predictions.
我向迈克询问了一些预测。
Which one of these guys do you think is most vulnerable to slipping over to the real side?
你认为这些人中哪一个最容易滑向真实的一面？
Which one of these two, sitting in front of me?
坐在我前面的两个人中，哪一个？
I think Tom is pretty vulnerable on this one.
我认为汤姆在这一点上很脆弱。
And I think it's going to be one of those things, if this does make him break--
我认为这将是其中之一，如果这确实让他崩溃的话——
Mike, I want you closer to me so I can hear you bad-mouthing me.
迈克，我希望你离我更近一些，这样我就能听到你说我的坏话。
I'm not bad-mouthing you.
我没有说你坏话。
He asked me which one of you guys are going to come over to the other side after you see this thing.
他问我你们谁看到这个东西后会到另一边去。
I'll put it this way.
我会这样说。
G.
G。
Gordon Liddy is too middle of the road for me.
戈登·利迪对我来说太中间了。
See?
看？
I think he's ready.
我想他已经准备好了。
I think he's primed for a conversion.
我认为他已经做好了转变的准备。
I think he's primed for a conversion.
我认为他已经做好了转变的准备。
You know, you get your most extreme right before you decide to change.
你知道，在你决定改变之前，你会得到最极端的权利。
The movie starts.
电影开始了。
Right away, Mike's bid to win these guys over seems in trouble.
迈克想要赢得这些人的支持似乎立刻遇到了麻烦。
Here is an early scene showing black members of Congress protesting the 2000 election results in a joint session.
这是一个早期场景，显示国会黑人议员在联席会议上抗议 2000 年的选举结果。
Al Gore is presiding as president of the senate.
阿尔·戈尔 (Al Gore) 担任参议院议长。
Is the objection in writing, and signed by a member of the House and a senator?
反对意见是否为书面形式，并由众议院议员和参议员签署？
The objection is in writing.
异议以书面形式提出。
And I don't care that it is not signed by a member--
我不在乎它不是由成员签名的——
That's the beauty of liberals.
这就是自由主义者的美妙之处。
They don't care about the rules.
他们不关心规则。
When Richard Clarke, former White House terrorism czar, explains how President Bush was obsessed with invading Iraq, even before September 11, Bill whispers that Clarke had an axe to grind, because he got passed over for a promotion.
当前白宫恐怖主义沙皇理查德·克拉克 (Richard Clarke) 解释布什总统如何痴迷于入侵伊拉克时，甚至在 9 月 11 日之前，比尔就低声说克拉克别有用心，因为他没有获得晋升。
And Tom says, "Right, so he's bitter.
汤姆说：“是的，所以他很痛苦。
They're interviewing a bitter ex-employee." Even the movie's celebrity walk-ons get the treatment.
他们正在面试一位心怀怨恨的前雇员。”甚至电影中的明星跑龙套也受到了待遇。
Look, there's Ben Affleck.
看，那是本·阿弗莱克。
He's often in my dreams.
他经常出现在我的梦里。
I'll bet he is.
我敢打赌他是。
Shane Dubow You get the idea.
肖恩·杜博 你明白了。
Sarcastic comments from Tom, dismissive chitchat from Bill.
汤姆的讽刺评论，比尔的轻蔑闲聊。
A lot of hopeful, see?
充满希望，看到了吗？
See what I means?
明白我的意思了吗？
from Mike.
来自迈克.
And every now and then, a moment of silence, when it's hard to tell how exactly the movie is going over.
时不时地，有片刻的沉默，很难说出电影到底是如何结束的。
By the end, though, Mike seems encouraged.
不过，到最后，迈克似乎受到了鼓舞。
As we leave the theater, he asks Tom about a few scenes, like the one where Bush, at a black tie fundraiser, first dubs the crowd a collection of haves and have mores, and then says, "Some people call you the elite.
当我们离开剧院时，他向汤姆询问了几个场景，比如布什在一场正式筹款活动中，首先称人群为有产阶级和有道德的人，然后说：“有些人称你们为精英。
I call you my base."
我称你为我的基地。”
You know, you're the kind of person that wasn't born in the elites of the country, right?
你知道，你是那种不是出身于国家精英的人，对吗？
And so, when Bush gets up and he says I'm here with-- wait, wait, hold on.
因此，当布什站起来说我在这里时——等等，等等，等等。
He says I'm here with the mores and have mores, does that appeal do you, intrinsically?
他说我在这里有更多的风俗，并且有更多的风俗，这本质上对你有吸引力吗？
It doesn't appeal to me, but it was a joke and it was funny.
这对我来说没有吸引力，但这是一个笑话，而且很有趣。
He's making a joke, and it was a funny joke.
他在开玩笑，而且是个很好笑的笑话。
It wasn't like he was disparaging anyone.
他并没有贬低任何人的意思。
He just said-- because that's who was there.
他只是说——因为那就是那里的人。
I asked Tom and Bill if anything in the movie, anything at all, struck a chord.
我问汤姆和比尔，电影中是否有任何东西，任何东西，引起了共鸣。
Tom mentions the part where Bush is said to have opposed better pay and benefits for soldiers.
汤姆提到了据说布什反对为士兵提供更好的工资和福利的部分。
He says if that's true, it's disturbing.
他说，如果这是真的，那就令人不安。
Bill agrees.
比尔同意。
Both men say they'll go home and do some research, see if Michael Moore's quote unquote "facts" check out.
两人都表示，他们会回家做一些研究，看看迈克尔·摩尔引用的“事实”是否属实。
Well, you know what?
嗯，你知道吗？
The problem with Moore is so much of his premise is riddled with half truths and lies.
摩尔的问题在于他的大部分前提都充满了半真半假的事实和谎言。
So I'd like to find out what really was the deal with that.
所以我想知道这到底是怎么回事。
I mean, I just can't believe that's true.
我的意思是，我简直不敢相信这是真的。
They don't even believe one of the points in the movie that's actually backed up by the Independent and Bipartisan 9/11 Commission, that there's no meaningful link between Al Qaeda and Iraq.
他们甚至不相信电影中实际上得到独立和两党 9/11 委员会支持的观点之一，即基地组织和伊拉克之间没有任何有意义的联系。
I don't believe that for a minute.
我一分钟都不相信。
I don't care who tells me.
我不在乎谁告诉我。
I don't believe that for a minute.
我一分钟都不相信。
Then Bill weighs in on the one part of the movie I thought might be persuasive, the part where the pro-military mother from Flint, Michigan loses her son in Iraq.
然后比尔对电影中我认为可能有说服力的部分进行了评论，即来自密歇根州弗林特的亲军人母亲在伊拉克失去儿子的部分。
I thought he really belabored that.
我认为他确实对此进行了详细阐述。
I thought he was really staid on that.
我认为他对此非常坚定。
And in particular, when she was in Washington, and then she's breaking down crying, well, I'm sitting there thinking, well, geez, here's this poor woman falling down crying, and you're just stand there filming.
特别是，当她在华盛顿的时候，然后她崩溃地哭泣，好吧，我坐在那里想，好吧，天哪，这个可怜的女人摔倒了哭泣，而你只是站在那里拍摄。
Typical press deal.
典型的新闻交易。
Right.
正确的。
Shane Dubow It's at this point that Tom turns, reaches into his back pocket, and pulls out a wad of folded papers he's printed off the internet.
肖恩·杜博 (Shane Dubow) 就在这时，汤姆转身，把手伸进后面的口袋，掏出一叠从互联网上打印出来的折叠纸。
Oh, that's something about all the untruths in the movie, though?
哦，这就是电影中所有的谎言吗？
Not all of them, just a handful of them.
不是全部，只是少数。
Oh, you had it going in.
哦，你已经进去了。
You didn't show me that.
你没有向我展示这一点。
Well, what am I--?
嗯，我是什么——？
Mike Did you read all these before you came into the movie today?
迈克，你今天看电影之前读过所有这些吗？
What am I supposed to do?
我该怎么办？
Come in here like a sheep to be sheared by you?
像一只待你剪羊毛的羊一样进来吗？
By you and your left-wing liberal friends, trying to corner me just like Michael Moore?
你和你的左翼自由派朋友想像迈克尔·摩尔一样把我逼到墙角？
Trying to ambush me?
想伏击我吗？
In the entire 10-year history of these arguments, and these discussions, has anyone ever been persuaded?
在这些争论和讨论的整个十年历史中，有谁被说服过吗？
Absolutely not.
绝对不是。
Tom That is a problem.
汤姆 这是一个问题。
And that's the thing.
就是这样。
I was thinking, because people say, why are you going to this thing today?
我在想，因为人们说，你今天为什么要做这个事情？
And I said, well, I have got to straighten some liberals out about a few things.
我说，好吧，我必须在一些事情上纠正一些自由主义者。
And I said it in a joking manner, because the fact of the matter is, no matter what you do, I think people are wired differently.
我是以开玩笑的方式这么说的，因为事实是，无论你做什么，我认为人们的思维方式是不同的。
I mean, I've tried to straighten out Mike several times.
我的意思是，我曾多次试图纠正迈克的错误。
But he's wired different.
但他的性格不同。
No matter what I show him, to show him that I'm right and he's wrong, he could agree with me on all this stuff, and then he'll still say, no, I'm still supporting Democrats.
无论我向他展示什么，让他知道我是对的，他是错的，他可以在所有这些事情上同意我的观点，然后他仍然会说，不，我仍然支持民主党。
Mike doesn't exactly see it that way.
迈克并不这么认为。
He's still surprisingly hopeful, even though he's worked on these guys for seven straight hours, including the movie.
令人惊讶的是，他仍然充满希望，尽管他已经在这些人身上连续工作了七个小时，包括电影。
And to me it seems like they haven't budged.
对我来说，他们似乎没有让步。
Tom will never really cede any ground in an argument, but I did see a door open, go ajar there.
汤姆永远不会在争论中真正让步，但我确实看到一扇门打开了，那里半开着。
A little doubt entered his mind when he saw that the military benefits had been cut for the veterans.
当他看到退伍军人的军事福利被削减时，他心中产生了一丝疑问。
And I think that really bothered him.
我认为这确实困扰了他。
And it's a war of attrition with these guys.
这是与这些家伙的消耗战。
And by God, I'm going to work on them tomorrow morning, in the pit, with this thing.
上帝啊，我明天早上就要在坑里用这个东西来处理它们。
When I call Mike for an update, he says that for a few days after the movie, he got more grief than ever out on the trading floor.
当我打电话给迈克询问最新情况时，他说电影结束后的几天里，他在交易大厅里比以往任何时候都更加悲伤。
Tom brought in a copy of Zell Miller's Republican Convention speech, and took to reading it out loud whenever there was a lull.
汤姆带来了一份泽尔·米勒在共和党代表大会上的演讲稿，每当休息的时候，他就大声朗读它。
But then all the politics started to wear people out.
但随后所有的政治开始让人们疲惫不堪。
The back and forth got old and the teasing died down.
来回的争吵渐渐老了，戏弄也渐渐平息了。
And then just when things were returning to normal, Mike says, two other Republican traders approached him on the floor.
迈克说，就在一切恢复正常的时候，另外两名共和党交易员在场上找到了他。
They had gone to see Fahrenheit 9/11 on their own, they said.
他们说，他们自己去看了《华氏9/11》。
They each wanted their $400.
他们每人想要 400 美元。
Shane DuBow, in Chicago.
肖恩·杜鲍，在芝加哥。
Act Four: It's My Party Ira Glass Act Four, It's My Party.
第四幕：这是我的派对 Ira Glass 第四幕，这是我的派对。
So Steven King, Christian Republican from Alabama, came to the Republican Convention in New York, wanting to debate the issues.
因此，来自阿拉巴马州的基督教共和党人史蒂文·金来到纽约参加共和党大会，想要就这些问题进行辩论。
And Patrick Howell, gay Republican from Florida, came to the Convention wanting to debate the issues.
来自佛罗里达州的同性恋共和党人帕特里克·豪威尔（Patrick Howell）来到大会上想要就这些问题进行辩论。
So it only seems right that somebody, somebody, would get those two crazy kids together.
所以，有人，有人，把这两个疯狂的孩子聚集在一起似乎是正确的。
Hi.
你好。
Steve King.
史蒂夫·金。
Patrick Howell Patrick Howell.
帕特里克·豪威尔 帕特里克·豪威尔。
Nice to meet you, Patrick.
很高兴认识你，帕特里克。
Patrick Howell Nice to meet you, too.
帕特里克·豪厄尔也很高兴认识你。
They hit it off right away.
他们一拍即合。
Patrick, it turns out-- and two brothers and a sister-- went to school up in Alabama, at Samford University, the Baptist school where, coincidentally, Steven got his law degree.
事实证明，帕特里克和两个兄弟和一个姐妹在阿拉巴马州桑福德大学浸信会学校上学，巧合的是，史蒂文在那里获得了法律学位。
Patrick was Sigma Nu.
帕特里克是西格玛努。
So was Steven's brother.
史蒂文的兄弟也是如此。
Patrick's sister still lives a few miles from Birmingham.
帕特里克的姐姐仍然住在距离伯明翰几英里的地方。
Steven knew the town and the high school her kids are going to.
史蒂文了解这个小镇，也了解她的孩子们要去的高中。
I live just north of Birmingham, about 30 miles, in Blount County, Oneonta.
我住在伯明翰以北约 30 英里的奥尼昂塔布朗特县。
Yeah.
是的。
You know Derick?
你认识德里克吗？
Patrick Howell Yeah, Derick was a fraternity brother of mine.
帕特里克·豪厄尔：是的，德里克是我的兄弟会兄弟。
Oh, you're kidding.
哦，你开玩笑吧。
Patrick Howell Yeah.
帕特里克·豪厄尔 是的。
After a few minutes of Southern comfortableness, they got down to business.
在南方舒适地度过了几分钟后，他们开始谈正事。
Patrick said that while of course he and Steven would agree that our country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles, our idea of those principles changes over time.
帕特里克说，虽然他和史蒂文当然同意我们的国家是建立在犹太教和基督教原则的基础上的，但我们对这些原则的看法随着时间的推移而改变。
Slavery was abolished.
奴隶制被废除了。
Women got the right to vote.
妇女获得了投票权。
And it's the same with rights for gays and lesbians, he said.
他说，男女同性恋者的权利也是如此。
And, you know, it's difficult for us, when social conservatives come at us from two angles.
而且，你知道，当社会保守派从两个角度攻击我们时，这对我们来说很困难。
They come at us from the angle of saying, you're immoral, you sleep around, you can't settle down and have one relationship.
他们从这样的角度对我们说：你不道德，你到处乱搞，你无法安定下来并建立一种关系。
And then on the other side, the same people are saying, we're not going to let you enter into relationships.
然后在另一边，同样的人又说，我们不会让你建立关系。
We don't want you to.
我们不希望你这样做。
And that's frustrating for us, when you hear that coming from both sides of someone's mouth.
当你从某人的嘴里听到这样的话时，这会让我们感到沮丧。
Because that's what we want.
因为这就是我们想要的。
We want to be boring.
我们想变得无聊。
That's what we're fighting for, is to be boring, and to just settle down with someone and spend the rest of our lives with them.
这就是我们奋斗的目标，就是变得无聊，只是和某人安定下来，与他们共度余生。
What are your thoughts on maybe coming to some sort of middle ground, that would allow for civil unions and protections like that?
您对可能达成某种中间立场有何想法，这将允许民事结合和类似的保护？
With respect to coming to some kind of common ground, or middle ground, we probably can on some level.
关于达成某种共同点或中间立场，我们可能可以在某种程度上达成一致。
And there's going to be other levels we won't be able to.
还有其他级别我们将无法做到。
I'm never going to agree that homosexuality, or that lifestyle, is a moral lifestyle.
我永远不会同意同性恋或这种生活方式是一种道德生活方式。
Reading God's word, I'm never going to come to that position.
读神的话语，我永远不会达到那样的境地。
One thing I sense from the homosexual lobby-- I'll call it that-- is that I get a sense it's not just whether you want to be able to have civil unions, or marriage, or whatever.
我从同性恋游说团体中感受到的一件事——我会这样称呼它——是我感觉到这不仅仅是你是否想要能够建立民事结合、婚姻或其他什么。
It's that you want me-- or people who believe like me-- not just to accept your homosexuality, but that homosexuality is OK.
而是你希望我——或者像我一样相信的人——不仅接受你的同性恋，而且同性恋是可以接受的。
No. I don't think that that is our goal at all.
不，我认为这根本不是我们的目标。
I know, personally, that's not my goal.
我知道，就我个人而言，这不是我的目标。
When you talk about-- you're talking about two different things.
当你谈论——你在谈论两件不同的事情。
One is acceptance, and one is tolerance.
一是接受，一是宽容。
That's really what we're looking for.
这正是我们正在寻找的。
Asking for tolerance isn't really asking for a lot.
要求宽容并不是真正要求太多。
It's just asking that you be able to say, you know, I don't endorse this.
只是要求你能够说，你知道，我不赞同这一点。
I don't agree with it.
我不同意。
But I tolerate it.
但我容忍它。
Certainly, acceptance would be great.
当然，如果能被接受就太好了。
But tolerance is really all that we're looking for.
但宽容确实是我们所寻求的一切。
OK.
好的。
I think I'm tolerant.
我想我还是能忍的。
I'm not going to agree with your lifestyle.
我不会同意你的生活方式。
And we're in some sense in a battle, it seems to be.
从某种意义上说，我们似乎正处于一场战斗中。
That's probably what it is going to be for a while.
这可能会持续一段时间。
And one of us is going to prevail, and one of us is not.
我们中的一个人将会获胜，而我们中的一个人则不会。
And in the meantime, I don't want bad things happen to you.
与此同时，我不希望不好的事情发生在你身上。
I don't want people to be mean, or physically harm you, or anything like that.
我不希望人们表现得很刻薄，或者对你进行身体伤害，或者类似的事情。
I don't want the government harassing you.
我不希望政府骚扰你。
I hope this is not harassing.
我希望这不是骚扰。
We disagree.
我们不同意。
We have an understanding of I know where you stand, and where you're feeling, and you know mine.
我们知道我知道你的立场和感受，你也知道我的。
They talked about gay marriage.
他们谈论同性婚姻。
Patrick ticked off a list of problems that gay couples face right now because they can't marry.
帕特里克列出了同性恋伴侣目前因无法结婚而面临的一系列问题。
Visitation in hospitals when a partner is sick, inheriting property when a partner dies.
当伴侣生病时去医院探望，当伴侣去世时继承财产。
Even if there's a will, family members can contest it in court, he says.
他说，即使有遗嘱，家庭成员也可以在法庭上提出异议。
Steven said he'd never heard about that one.
史蒂文说他从未听说过这个。
Steven said his main problem with letting gays marry-- or have civil unions in some states-- is that it's hard to imagine that it would just be confined to a few states.
史蒂文说，他允许同性恋结婚或在某些州建立民事结合的主要问题是，很难想象这只会仅限于少数几个州。
Surely, he said, some liberal judge would make all the states recognize the marriages.
他说，当然，一些自由派法官会让所有州都承认这些婚姻。
And from his point of view, it's just the next thing in a slippery slope.
从他的角度来看，这只是下一个滑坡事件。
Christians lost the right to pray in schools, there's Roe versus Wade, then no-fault divorce.
基督徒失去了在学校祈祷的权利，有罗伊诉韦德案，还有无过错离婚案。
This is just one more thing that he's teaching his kids is wrong, that society says is OK.
这只是他教给孩子们的另一件事是错误的，而社会却认为这是可以的。
The fact that Patrick's religious, goes to church, his six-year-old son goes to a religious school, all means something to Steven.
事实上，帕特里克有宗教信仰，去教堂，他六岁的儿子去宗教学校，这一切对史蒂文来说都很重要。
I want him to be a good father.
我希望他成为一个好父亲。
I want to be a good father.
我想成为一个好父亲。
Our quote "society" as a whole, I think, probably in a lot of ways, would be better off, if people was interested in their children, probably, as Patrick is-- is it a son, is that what you said?
我认为，我们引用的“社会”作为一个整体，可能在很多方面都会变得更好，如果人们对他们的孩子感兴趣，可能就像帕特里克一样——这是一个儿子，是你说的吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Steven King Yeah.
史蒂文·金 是的。
I think it's fine that you're involved in a church there and things, whatever.
我认为你参与那里的教堂之类的事情很好。
I do wonder what the church-- and how the church, gets around the clear teaching in scripture against homosexuality.
我确实想知道教会——以及教会如何规避圣经中反对同性恋的明确教导。
Here's what I have trouble with.
这就是我遇到的麻烦。
You would never-- well, I'm not going to put words in your mouth.
你永远不会——好吧，我不会把话塞到你嘴里。
But if someone came to your church and was divorced, you would never tell that person, you are committing adultery.
但如果有人来到你的教会并且离婚了，你永远不会告诉那个人，你犯了通奸罪。
That's what Jesus said in the Bible.
这就是耶稣在圣经中所说的。
He said that if you divorce and remarry, you're committing adultery with that person.
他说，如果你离婚并再婚，你就是与那个人通奸。
I agree.
我同意。
Patrick Howell Your church, I'll bet, doesn't tell people that are divorced that.
帕特里克·豪厄尔：我敢打赌，你们的教会不会告诉离婚的人这一点。
From the pulpit, look over at the divorced people that are sitting there, that have remarried, and say, every time you sleep with your new husband, you're committing adultery.
从讲坛上，看看坐在那里的那些离婚的、再婚的人，然后说，每次你和你的新丈夫上床，你就犯了通奸罪。
And so, what you've done, and what you're able to do, probably, and what your church does, is you cherry-pick things from the Bible that are going to be something that you hold out as a principle.
所以，你所做的，你可能做的，以及你的教会所做的，就是你从圣经中精心挑选的东西，这些东西将成为你坚持的原则。
And the other stuff you conveniently leave in there, and close it, and put it out of your mind.
其他的东西你可以方便地留在那儿，关上它，然后把它从你的脑海中抹去。
And for whatever reason, homosexuality is one of those things that has been cherry-picked out, and has been, for whatever reason, given this different status.
无论出于何种原因，同性恋都是被精心挑选出来的事物之一，并且出于某种原因被赋予了这种不同的地位。
I think you make an excellent point.
我认为你的观点非常好。
And I think the way you put it, about the cherry-picking, is correct.
我认为你关于挑选樱桃的说法是正确的。
But even with the hypocrisy, that I admit is there, that doesn't get around with what scripture says.
但即使存在虚伪，我承认确实存在，但这并不符合圣经所说的。
Well, we talked about tolerance.
好吧，我们谈到了宽容。
And I think that tolerance can go both ways, because I can tolerate what I see as the hypocrisy in a lot of churches, if you can tolerate that there are people that have a different view of what God's message is, or what the scripture means, or what the application is to our individual lives.
我认为宽容是双向的，因为我可以容忍我所认为的许多教会的虚伪，如果你能容忍有人对上帝的信息是什么，或者圣经的含义，或者对我们个人生活的应用有不同的看法。
Understand that we've got to tolerate those views and try to focus on things we do agree on.
要明白，我们必须容忍这些观点，并努力专注于我们确实同意的事情。
Because there's a lot.
因为有很多。
I agree.
我同意。
I think there is a lot.
我认为有很多。
But know and understand this, and getting back just within the Republican Party, we're going to continue to have this struggle, disagreement, on the platform.
但知道并理解这一点，回到共和党内部，我们将继续在平台上进行这种斗争和分歧。
If those platform revisions change, would you leave the party?
如果这些平台修订发生变化，您会离开该党吗？
Well, no, I don't think I'd be OK.
嗯，不，我想我不会有事。
And that's when I would come to the point of, will I continue to be a Republican?
那时我就会想到，我会继续成为共和党人吗？
What am I going to do?
我要做什么？
There's going to be a struggle.
将会有一场斗争。
There's going to be a conflict.
会有冲突。
One of us will be OK, or happy, and one of us won't.
我们中的一个人会没事或快乐，而我们中的一个人则不会。
It is my thought-- belief, or whatever-- I think over time, even though I may disagree with it, I think Patrick ultimately is going to get his wish.
这是我的想法——信仰，或者其他什么——我认为随着时间的推移，即使我可能不同意，我认为帕特里克最终会实现他的愿望。
I hope that doesn't happen, but I-- being a realist-- I think that will happen whether [INAUDIBLE] or not.
我希望这不会发生，但我——作为一个现实主义者——我认为无论[听不清]与否，这都会发生。
That's what I believe.
这就是我所相信的。
Perhaps in the future-- it may be in 20 or 25 years-- it's just no big deal.
也许在未来——可能是 20 年或 25 年——这没什么大不了的。
It's not a forefront issue.
这不是一个前沿问题。
I don't know.
我不知道。
That's what I'm working for.
这就是我工作的目的。
Ira Glass Steven said that if the Republican Party ever became pro-choice, he'd definitely have to leave.
艾拉·格拉斯·史蒂文 (Ira Glass Steven) 表示，如果共和党支持堕胎，他肯定必须离开。
On gay issues, he'll wait and see how he feels.
在同性恋问题上，他会等着看自己的感受。
Like he says, what's probably going to happen is, either Patrick's going to be unhappy with the party's position-- and struggling from within to change it-- or Steven will.
正如他所说，可能会发生的情况是，要么帕特里克对党的立场不满意——并从内部努力改变它——要么史蒂文会。
Well, our program was produced today by Alex Blumberg and myself, with Diane Cook, Wendy Dorr, Jane Feltes, Sarah Koenig, and Lisa Pollack.
好吧，我们今天的节目是由亚历克斯·布隆伯格和我本人以及黛安·库克、温迪·多尔、简·费尔特斯、莎拉·科尼格和丽莎·波拉克制作的。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Elizabeth Meister runs our website.
伊丽莎白·梅斯特 (Elizabeth Meister) 负责运营我们的网站。
Production help from Todd Bachmann and Amy O'Leary.
托德·巴赫曼 (Todd Bachmann) 和艾米·奥利里 (Amy O'Leary) 为制作提供帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] You know, you can download audio of our show at audible.com/thisamericanlife, where they have public radio programs, best-selling books, even The New York Times , all at audible.com.
[鸣谢] 您知道，您可以在 audible.com/thisamericanlife 下载我们节目的音频，那里有公共广播节目、畅销书，甚至《纽约时报》，所有这些都在 audible.com 上。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight by Torey Malatia, who swears whenever we try to put him on the show--
[资金来源] WBEZ 管理由 Torey Malatia 监督，每当我们试图让他参加节目时，他都会发誓——
You and your left-wing liberal friends, trying to corner me, just like Michael Moore?
你和你的左翼自由派朋友，想把我逼到墙角，就像迈克尔摩尔一样？
Trying to ambush me?
想伏击我吗？
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。