271: Best Interests - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #271 | August 20, 2004 271: Best Interests Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 271 集 | 2004 年 8 月 20 日 271：最佳利益 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass Colin was 14, a straight-A student, in a program for gifted kids.
序言 艾拉·格拉斯·科林 14 岁，是一个天才儿童项目的全优学生。
But he hated school.
但他讨厌学校。
And this spring, a few weeks before the end of eighth grade, before he would leave middle school forever, he looked at his grade point average, did a little calculation, and realized something kind of amazing.
今年春天，八年级结束前几周，在他永远离开中学之前，他查看了自己的平均成绩，做了一些计算，并意识到了一些令人惊奇的事情。
I had a high enough GPA that I could flunk every class in eighth grade all the way through, and I would still graduate.
我的 GPA 足够高，即使我在八年级的每门课上都不及格，但我仍然会毕业。
Even if I had turned in nothing, I would have had a D average for that semester.
即使我什么也没交，那学期我的平均成绩也会是 D。
And the D average would turn into an overall B average overall.
D 平均值将变成总体 B 平均值。
And so, I had no reason to go.
所以，我没有理由去。
So I didn't go.
所以我没有去。
He didn't just quit school all at once though.
不过，他并不是一下子就退学了。
For a while he went to class.
有一段时间他去上课了。
But quietly, and deliberately, stopped doing his work, on principle.
但原则上，他悄悄地、故意地停止了工作。
There were lots of days where I just didn't do any work at all.
有很多天我根本没有做任何工作。
And I would just sit through class and wait for the bell to ring, and give the appearance that I was working, or copy off people, or things like that, and so.
我会坐在课堂上等待铃声响起，并表现出我正在工作，或者模仿别人，或者类似的事情，等等。
No. Ira Glass Did you have a book you were reading, where you could just kind of, sit in the back--
不，艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass），你有没有正在读一本书，你可以坐在后面——
No. I don't really read, so.
不，我不太读书，所以。
Ira Glass Yeah.
艾拉·格拉斯 是的。
Or a magazine, or something?
或者杂志什么的？
That's something that they could point at, though.
不过，这是他们可以指出的。
I mean, I wasn't giving them anything they could point at.
我的意思是，我没有给他们任何他们可以指出的东西。
So if I did something like that, then they could say, well he was reading while we were supposed to be working.
因此，如果我做了类似的事情，那么他们可能会说，好吧，当我们应该工作时他正在读书。
Right.
正确的。
Colin Dunn That would be deliberately defying their instructions.
科林·邓恩 那就是故意违抗他们的指示。
Or it's just sitting there and not working.
或者它只是坐在那里而不工作。
Right.
正确的。
There's nothing really they can do.
他们确实无能为力。
And when it comes to high school, will you work in high school?
说到高中，你会在高中工作吗？
Of course.
当然。
Because high school, you're working towards the rest of your life.
因为高中，你正在为你的余生而努力。
You're working toward what college you'll go to, and what college you go to decides what career you choose.
你正在为你要上哪所大学而努力，你上哪所大学决定你选择什么职业。
But middle school?
但中学呢？
My counselor reassured me that it doesn't count for anything.
我的辅导员向我保证这没有任何意义。
That this will be all disregarded after this year is over.
今年结束后，这一切都将被忽视。
He cut school completely one time.
他有一次完全逃学了。
And then a second time.
然后是第二次。
And both times, the school tried to call his parents, but Colin, naturally, intercepted those messages and erased them from the family answering machine.
两次，学校都试图给他的父母打电话，但科林自然截获了这些信息，并将其从家庭答录机中删除。
And the third day that Colin cut school, it led to a kind of uncomfortable moment for his dad.
科林逃学的第三天，这给他的父亲带来了一种不舒服的时刻。
His dad you see, is a behavior specialist for the public schools, in charge of training administrators how to keep kids doing what they're supposed to be doing.
你看，他的父亲是公立学校的行为专家，负责培训管理人员如何让孩子们做他们应该做的事情。
At a hundred schools, in three counties in Oregon, including the school that Colin attends.
俄勒冈州三个县的一百所学校，包括科林就读的学校。
In your job, do you deal with kids who don't show up at school?
在你的工作中，你会处理那些缺课的孩子吗？
Yep.
是的。
And I was in the school for a meeting regarding something else, and the vice principal said, oh, are you here because of the call?
当时我在学校开会讨论别的事情，副校长说，哦，你是因为电话才来的吗？
And I said, call?
我说，打电话？
And she said, well Colin is not in school all day.
她说，好吧，科林整天都不在学校。
And I'm like, news to me.
我想，这对我来说是新闻。
And so I called my wife and she said, I got a call earlier--
所以我打电话给我的妻子，她说，我早些时候接到电话--
Can we just pause on that moment for a second?
我们可以暂停一下那一刻吗？
OK, so you're here to coach them about disciplining and controlling children.
好的，所以你来这里是为了指导他们如何管教和控制孩子。
And in the middle of this, they say to you, oh by the way, you got our call about your son hasn't shown up today.
就在这中间，他们对你说，哦，顺便说一句，你接到我们的电话，说你儿子今天没有出现。
What's that like for you?
对你来说那是什么样的？
It's a little, kind of, it's sort of almost like, belching in a crowd, you know.
你知道，有点像在人群中打嗝。
It's just a little awkward.
只是有点尴尬。
So I left work and went home.
于是我就下班回家了。
So I went there, and there he was.
所以我去了那里，他也在那里。
Much to his surprise, he saw me walk in the door.
令他惊讶的是，他看到我走进门。
Sort of like, what are you doing here.
有点像，你在这里做什么。
He came into my room and, "Where the hell have you been?" And back and forth about, what were you doing, what were you thinking, what was your logic for this?
他走进我的房间，问道：“你到底去哪儿了？”反复思考，你在做什么，你在想什么，你这样做的逻辑是什么？
And that's when I really told him.
就在那时我才真正告诉了他。
I had enough credits to graduate, and I didn't need to pass any more classes.
我有足够的学分可以毕业，而且我不需要再通过任何课程。
There's no point.
没有意义。
At some points in this fight, did you find yourself kind of convinced by him?
在这场战斗的某些时刻，你是否发现自己有点被他说服了？
From the beginning.
从一开始。
I know what schools are like.
我知道学校是什么样的。
I am there.
我在那里。
I know the reality of that.
我知道事实的真相。
It would be one thing for me to have this illusion about that.
对我来说对此抱有这种幻想是一回事。
But, I mean, there's a part of me that wanted to laugh.
但是，我的意思是，我内心有一部分想笑。
But there's another part of me that wanted to strangle him.
但我内心的另一部分却想掐死他。
So you're simultaneously proud of him, and completely flummoxed.
所以你既为他感到骄傲，又感到完全困惑。
Yes.
是的。
Baffled.
困惑了。
[LAUGHTER] And beside myself.
[笑声] 和我自己一样。
And needing to get back to work.
并且需要回去工作。
And wishing this weren't so.
并希望事实并非如此。
It's kind of a stumper, what to do.
真是让人不知所措，该怎么办。
On the one hand, Colin had a point.
一方面，科林说得有道理。
He was thinking independently, which his dad wants.
他独立思考，这是他父亲想要的。
Maybe the right thing to do would be to let Colin stop doing his schoolwork, and then force him to live through the consequences of that very adult decision.
也许正确的做法是让科林停止做功课，然后强迫他承受这个非常成人的决定的后果。
Maybe that would teach him something useful.
也许这会教给他一些有用的东西。
On the other hand, Colin had a history of trying to wriggle out of his responsibilities.
另一方面，科林有试图逃避责任的历史。
And so letting him wriggle out of something so big and important, it just didn't sit right.
所以让他摆脱如此重大而重要的事情，这实在是不合适。
His dad tried to convince him to return to school.
他的父亲试图说服他重返学校。
That event triggered a three week period of knock down, drag out, screaming, crying, yelling.
那次事件引发了为期三周的击倒、拖拽、尖叫、哭泣、大喊大叫。
And at one point, in the middle of an argument, I said Colin, I need to-- sort of in a moment of intensity-- I sort of went time out.
有一次，在一场争论中，我对科林说，我需要——在紧张的时刻——我有点暂停。
You know, I need to clarify something here.
你知道，我需要在这里澄清一些事情。
And that is that, I don't know that I'm right.
就是这样，我不知道我是对的。
How'd that go over?
事情进展得怎么样？
Corey Dunn He said well that's reassuring.
科里·邓恩（Corey Dunn） 他说得好，这让人放心。
Sort of, well that's reassuring.
有点，嗯，这让人放心。
So he was like, you're telling me, I got to go to school because da da da da, but you don't even know that you're right!
所以他就像，你告诉我，我必须去上学，因为哒哒哒哒，但你甚至不知道你是对的！
I said, no, I don't know that I'm right.
我说，不，我不知道我是对的。
I said it's my best guess, given the information available to me.
我说，根据我掌握的信息，这是我最好的猜测。
Colin's dad says this is par for the course.
科林的父亲说这是理所当然的。
You can't raise kids without getting into situations where you don't know what to do.
如果你不陷入不知道该怎么做的境地，你就无法抚养孩子。
Because as kids develop, they fight against you, try to get their independence.
因为随着孩子的成长，他们会反抗你，试图获得独立。
And sometimes you have to let them win those fights.
有时你必须让他们赢得这些战斗。
And sometimes you have to stop them.
有时你必须阻止他们。
And at every stage in their growth, there's going to be situations where it's going to be unclear what to do, what is best.
在他们成长的每个阶段，都会出现不清楚该做什么、什么是最好的情况。
Which brings us to the subject of today's radio program.
这就引出了今天广播节目的主题。
From WBEZ Chicago, this is This American Life, distributed by Public Radio International.
这是来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《美国生活》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today we have two stories about adults struggling to figure out what is in the best interest of some child.
今天我们有两个关于成年人努力弄清楚什么最符合某些孩子的最大利益的故事。
And in situations where, what is best is not so clear.
在某些情况下，什么是最好的并不那么明确。
Act One of our program, I'd Prefer Not.
我们节目的第一幕，我不想。
In that act, as you heard, a 14 year old boy nearly gets the last word with his own father.
正如您所听到的，在那一幕中，一个 14 岁的男孩差点就跟自己的父亲说了最后一句话。
Act Two, Exodus of One.
第二幕，一的出走。
In that story, a three year old girl comes into this country from another country with illegal papers.
在那个故事中，一个三岁的女孩带着非法证件从另一个国家来到这个国家。
And authorities don't know what to do with her, and make their best guess.
当局不知道该如何处置她，只能做出最好的猜测。
Years later, one of the officials goes on a search to find out if they did the right thing.
多年后，其中一名官员继续调查，看看他们的做法是否正确。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One.
第一幕。
I'd Prefer Not.
我宁愿不。
So during this three week fight between Colin and his dad, Colin did agree to go back to school until it was resolved.
因此，在科林和他父亲之间的这三周的争吵中，科林确实同意回到学校，直到问题得到解决。
And one day in math class, the teacher, as you'd expect, noticed that Colin was doing absolutely nothing.
有一天，在数学课上，正如你所料，老师注意到科林什么也没做。
She asked me if I did my homework last night, and I said no. And she asked me why, and I said, because I don't want to.
她问我昨晚作业做了没有，我说没有。她问我为什么，我说，因为我不想。
And she said, OK, well are you planning on doing it?
她说，好吧，你打算这样做吗？
And I said, if I feel like it.
我说，如果我愿意的话。
So she sent me to the office.
于是她就把我送到了办公室。
And did you say this in kind of an angry way?
你是用一种愤怒的方式说这句话的吗？
Or were you just as neutral--
或者你也一样中立——
I was no, really polite about it.
我没有，对此非常有礼貌。
I said, well, there's no point.
我说，好吧，没有意义。
So she sent me to the office.
于是她就把我送到了办公室。
It wasn't like I was trying to be mean to her about it.
我并不是想对她刻薄。
I mean she even told my mom later that, well, he was really polite about it.
我的意思是她后来甚至告诉我妈妈，嗯，他对此非常有礼貌。
And so she sends him down to the office.
于是她把他送到办公室。
She can't have him, I mean, it's open defiance in front of all the rest of the students.
她不能拥有他，我的意思是，这是在所有其他学生面前公开反抗。
And if she says OK, the rest of the students look around, say, hmm.
如果她说“好吧”，其他学生就会环顾四周，说，嗯。
It worked for him.
这对他有用。
I was in the office, and I had been waiting in the focus room, which is basically a room with a table and a chair in it.
我当时在办公室，一直在焦点室等待，这基本上是一个有桌子和椅子的房间。
And I was probably in there--
我可能就在那里——
Meaning like, focus on what you had done?
意思是，专注于你所做的事情？
There was one window, that had no handles on them.
有一扇窗户，没有把手。
There's no way to get out besides the door.
除了门外，没有其他办法可以出去。
Well there's no way to get out of any room besides the door.
好吧，除了门之外，没有办法离开任何房间。
Well, the window, but-- Ira Glass Oh, the window, I see what you're saying.
嗯，窗户，但是—— Ira Glass 哦，窗户，我明白你在说什么。
[LAUGHTER]
[笑声]
They actually took the handle out of the window.
他们实际上把把手从窗户里拿出来了。
And it was hot in there.
那里很热。
And I'd probably been in there for an hour and a half, to close to two hours.
我可能在那里呆了一个半小时，到接近两个小时。
And then my dad came.
然后我爸爸来了。
I walked in the room.
我走进房间。
And I said, what can I do to help?
我说，我能提供什么帮助吗？
And so we left the building and walked around.
于是我们离开了大楼，四处走走。
And I had the, you can't throw in the towel speech.
我有过“你不能认输”的演讲。
Throwing in the towel, yeah, he used that a lot.
认输，是的，他经常使用这一点。
Yeah.
是的。
Colin Dunn It was his favorite analogy.
科林·邓恩 这是他最喜欢的比喻。
I probably hear that about 10 times a week.
我大概每周都会听到大约 10 次这样的说法。
I said, I'm not going to let you throw in the towel.
我说，我不会让你认输的。
You can't throw in the towel.
你不能认输。
Can't throw in the towel.
不能认输。
I mean I would hear it over and over.
我的意思是我会一遍又一遍地听到它。
I could hear it coming.
我能听到它来了。
I could be like, oh here comes the towel.
我可能会说，哦，毛巾来了。
I could mouth it, I could mouth the words.
我可以说出它，我可以说出这些话。
Now were you aware during this period that you were posing kind of a puzzle for your dad?
现在你是否意识到，在这段时间里，你正在为你的父亲提出一个难题？
Say a little more about that.
对此多说一点。
Colin Dunn He deals with kids who have problems like that every day.
科林·邓恩（Colin Dunn） 他每天都会与遇到此类问题的孩子打交道。
And so, he's an expert.
所以，他是一位专家。
It's like, it's trying to beat Michael Jordan on a one-on-one, you know.
就像，它试图在一对一的比赛中击败迈克尔·乔丹，你知道。
Was there like, a most satisfying moment of it?
有没有一个最令人满意的时刻？
That you remember you just thought, like, yes, OK.
你记得你只是想，是的，好吧。
When he told me that he didn't know if it was right.
当他告诉我时，他不知道这是否正确。
That was the moment when I thought, I really beat Michael Jordan.
那一刻我想，我真的打败了迈克尔·乔丹。
What I figured out was, that what we really needed to do is get through the end of the year.
我发现，我们真正需要做的是度过今年年底。
And I had this discussion with Colin.
我和科林进行了讨论。
And we agreed.
我们同意了。
So what I worked out was him being able to come to Chicago from Oregon.
所以我的想法是他能够从俄勒冈州来到芝加哥。
And be with his sister for a couple of days for a weekend.
周末和他妹妹待几天。
And--
还有——
Oh, you gave him a reward, if he would actually go to school.
哦，如果他真的去上学的话，你就给了他奖励。
Well-- yeah.
嗯——是的。
Ira Glass I asked your dad how it was resolved.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 我问你爸爸这是如何解决的。
And he said he basically just tried to bribe.
他说他基本上只是试图贿赂。
[LAUGHTER] Did he say how he would bribe me?
[笑声] 他有说过要如何贿赂我吗？
He thought-- oh, so he was trying to bribe me with the Chicago trip?
他想——哦，所以他想用芝加哥之行贿赂我？
Well, he didn't-- yes.
嗯，他没有——是的。
Colin Dunn Is that what he said?
科林·邓恩 他是这么说的吗？
That's pretty much, yeah.
差不多就是这样了，是的。
Colin Dunn Well, I guess that it-- I look at it now, and I guess yeah, he did bribe me.
科林·邓恩（Colin Dunn）：好吧，我想——我现在看一下，我想是的，他确实贿赂了我。
And is that a bad thing?
这是一件坏事吗？
Colin Dunn I think it's kind of bad when you're bribing your kids.
科林·邓恩（Colin Dunn）：我认为贿赂孩子是一件很糟糕的事情。
I mean--
我的意思是——
See I disagree with you.
看我不同意你的观点。
I think that if you're getting people to do the right thing for the right reasons, it's always best.
我认为，如果你让人们以正确的理由做正确的事情，那总是最好的。
But if that fails, getting them to do the right thing for the wrong reasons-- that's life.
但如果失败了，让他们以错误的理由做正确的事——这就是生活。
Sometimes that's the way it's got to go.
有时这就是必须走的路。
So you think that sometimes you just got to do the wrong thing, to get him to go and do the right thing overall?
所以你认为有时候你只是做了错误的事情，才能让他去做总体上正确的事情？
I don't think it's the wrong thing to offer you the trip as a present.
我不认为向你提供这次旅行作为礼物是错误的。
Well what would you do?
那么你会怎么做？
What should he have done?
他应该做什么？
For me, I would have said, then don't go to school.
对我来说，我会说，那就别去学校了。
See but, he wanted you to go to school.
瞧，他想让你去上学。
Like, he--
就像，他——
And I think I would have, actually.
事实上，我想我会的。
If he had let me stay home from school maybe a week?
如果他让我呆在家里不上学也许一周会怎样？
And I would just, I mean-- I couldn't have done it.
我只是，我的意思是——我做不到。
I don't think I could have stayed home from school for the rest of the year.
我想我不可能在这一年剩下的时间里呆在家里不上学。
Why?
为什么？
Colin Dunn It's kind of like, if you ever have been homesick, you know.
Colin Dunn：这有点像，如果你曾经想家，你知道。
You think it's going to be so great.
你认为它会很棒。
But then after the first couple days, it's like, oh, I just want to get back to school.
但在最初的几天之后，我就想，哦，我只想回到学校。
Because you felt like probably you would have been bored, you would have wanted to see your friends, it would just feel weird.
因为你觉得你可能会很无聊，你会想见见你的朋友，这会感觉很奇怪。
Right.
正确的。
It would.
会的。
I know the days that I stayed home it felt weird.
我知道我呆在家里的日子感觉很奇怪。
I mean, I couldn't answer the phone.
我的意思是，我无法接听电话。
I couldn't be seen.
我看不见。
I felt like I was hiding.
我感觉自己好像在躲起来。
I mean I was hiding.
我的意思是我躲起来了。
It felt-- it just didn't feel right.
感觉——只是感觉不太对劲。
Wow.
哇。
Did you realize this at the time, or did you only realize it in retrospect?
您是当时意识到这一点，还是后来才意识到这一点？
I realized it at the time.
我当时就意识到了。
I thought that if my dad had let me stay home, I would've stayed home for probably only a week at the very most.
我想如果我爸爸让我呆在家里，我最多只能呆在家里一个星期。
And I would have gone back to school.
我会回到学校。
It's kind of like, if you gave me that much control, then I might be less rebellious.
有点像，如果你给我那么多控制权，那么我可能就不那么叛逆了。
Colin Dunn and his father Corey, in Oregon.
科林·邓恩和他的父亲科里在俄勒冈州。
Act Two, Exodus of One.
第二幕，一的出走。
There are over 5,000 children each year who get caught at the borders or at the airport, trying to come into this country without a parent or a legal guardian.
每年有超过 5,000 名儿童在试图在没有父母或法定监护人陪伴的情况下进入这个国家时在边境或机场被抓。
No legal papers.
没有法律文件。
The law is clear-cut to what to do about them, but the situation often is not so clear-cut.
法律明确规定了如何处理这些问题，但实际情况往往并不那么明确。
They're taken to residential facilities.
他们被带到住宅设施。
One is in Chicago, on a neighborhood street on the north side.
其中一个位于芝加哥北侧的一条街区街道上。
It's innocuous looking.
看起来无害。
A two story, white brick building, bounded by an iron wrought fence, called the International Children's Center.
一栋两层的白砖建筑，周围有铁艺围栏，称为国际儿童中心。
It's run by a nonprofit agency under contract with the US government, and houses up to 70 children at a time, most of them teenagers, from China, Africa, Central America, and elsewhere.
它由一家与美国政府签订合同的非营利机构运营，最多可容纳 70 名儿童，其中大多数是青少年，他们来自中国、非洲、中美洲和其他地方。
The average stay is two to three months.
平均停留时间为两到三个月。
During that time, the children don't know what's going to happen to them.
在那段时间里，孩子们不知道自己会发生什么。
If they're going to be allowed to stay in the United States, or they're going to be sent back.
如果他们被允许留在美国，或者他们会被遣返回国。
Alex Kotlowitz has this story, about one of the memorable and difficult cases that they faced in the last few years.
亚历克斯·科特洛维茨（Alex Kotlowitz）有一个故事，讲述了他们在过去几年中遇到的令人难忘且困难的案件之一。
On the afternoon of December 14, 1999, at Chicago's O'Hare airport, immigration officials pulled aside a three year old girl named Georgia Norman.
1999年12月14日下午，在芝加哥奥黑尔机场，移民官员将一名名叫乔治亚·诺曼的三岁女孩拉到一边。
She had arrived at O'Hare with a woman from Milwaukee, and customs officials discovered that Georgia's visa had been forged.
她与一名来自密尔沃基的女士一起抵达奥黑尔，海关官员发现佐治亚州的签证是伪造的。
Little was known about the girl other than her name, and that she was from Jamaica.
除了她的名字和来自牙买加之外，人们对这个女孩知之甚少。
Given her age, she couldn't tell the officials very much.
考虑到她的年龄，她不能告诉官员太多事情。
And the woman from Milwaukee was vague about her relationship with the girl.
这位来自密尔沃基的女士对她与女孩的关系含糊其辞。
So the INS, concerned that the woman might be smuggling the girl to sell her as part of a child trafficking operation, took her into protective custody and brought her to the International Children's Center.
因此，移民局担心这名妇女可能会偷运女孩，以便将她卖掉，作为贩卖儿童行动的一部分，因此对她进行了保护性拘留，并将她带到了国际儿童中心。
She was not an obedient child when we first made contact with her.
当我们第一次接触她时，她并不是一个听话的孩子。
This is Hugo Ruiz, the center's director.
我是该中心主任乌戈·鲁伊斯。
For the first few weeks, Georgia threw tantrums when she didn't get her way, biting and spitting at those who tried to comfort her.
在最初的几周里，乔治娅一不顺心就发脾气，对那些试图安慰她的人咬人、吐口水。
She had nightmares.
她做了噩梦。
In the morning she'd awake disoriented, asking for her family.
早上她醒来时迷失了方向，寻找家人。
She refused to eat her meals.
她拒绝吃饭。
The staff at the center had such trouble with Georgia, that Hugo had to step in.
该中心的工作人员与乔治亚州之间存在很大的麻烦，雨果不得不介入。
I took Georgia to bed.
我带乔治亚上床睡觉。
And I was talking to her, and laying her down in bed, and she lifted up her leg and kicked down as I was holding her.
我正在和她说话，把她放在床上，当我抱着她时，她抬起腿并踢下去。
And she dislocated my thumb.
她让我的拇指脱臼了。
I actually tried to grab my thumb and put it back into place, and I did, but Georgia got scared.
事实上，我试图抓住我的拇指并将其放回原位，我做到了，但乔治亚很害怕。
Because she saw that she had hurt me.
因为她看到她伤害了我。
And she started crying.
她开始哭泣。
And I hugged her.
我拥抱了她。
And we sang some songs, and I read her a couple of stories.
我们唱了一些歌，我给她读了几个故事。
And she fell asleep.
她睡着了。
And I went and got an ice bag.
我去拿了一个冰袋。
So that was my real introduction to Georgia early on in the program.
这就是我在项目早期对乔治亚州的真正介绍。
Hugo, who is 54, is even keeled and patient.
54 岁的雨果甚至显得沉稳而有耐心。
An immigrant himself, from Peru, on some level he identified with the confusion and uncertainty the children at the center felt.
他本人是一名来自秘鲁的移民，在某种程度上，他对中心里的孩子们所感受到的困惑和不确定感有同感。
Also he had raised two daughters of his own.
他还抚养了自己的两个女儿。
He continued to read to Georgia at night, and let her tag along with him to meetings downtown.
晚上他继续给乔治亚读书，并让她跟着他去市中心开会。
Soon, the crying and the fits stopped.
很快，哭声和痉挛就停止了。
Georgia began to feel at home.
乔治亚州开始有宾至如归的感觉。
She had the run of the place.
她掌控着这个地方。
She was a beautiful child, with a smile Hugo said, that could put anyone under her power.
她是一个美丽的孩子，雨果说，她的笑容可以让任何人臣服于她。
And because she was so much younger than most of the children at the center, she was doted on.
而且因为她比中心里的大多数孩子都年轻得多，所以她受到了溺爱。
Especially by some of the older girls, many of whom had left younger siblings behind.
尤其是一些年龄较大的女孩，其中许多人都留下了弟弟妹妹。
I miss my family, and I miss my little brothers.
我想念我的家人，我想念我的弟弟们。
And I wanted to be close to her.
我想靠近她。
Because it was a comfort for me, as well as for her.
因为这对我和她来说都是一种安慰。
And we were very close.
我们非常亲密。
We'd take a lot of pictures together.
我们会一起拍很多照片。
Sagal [?
萨加尔[?
Abdi, ?] who was 17 at the time, was from Somalia.
阿卜迪 (Abdi)，？] 当时 17 岁，来自索马里。
Like some of the other kids here, she was running from horrific memories.
和这里的其他一些孩子一样，她正在逃避可怕的回忆。
In her case, the brutality of her country's civil wars, which had claimed the life of her father.
就她而言，她的国家内战的残酷性夺去了她父亲的生命。
Many other kids, especially the Chinese, are sent here by their parents, often with the aid of smugglers, in the hope that they'll find work and be able to send money home.
许多其他孩子，尤其是中国孩子，通常在走私者的帮助下被父母送到这里，希望他们能找到工作并能够寄钱回家。
Though the kids don't know the particulars of each other's stories, they feel connected by their common experiences.
尽管孩子们不知道彼此故事的细节，但他们觉得共同的经历将他们联系在一起。
Sagal became Georgia's roommate, and they became like sisters.
萨加尔成了乔治亚的室友，她们就像姐妹一样。
One day, Sagal learned that her effort to gain political asylum had run into some problems.
有一天，萨加尔得知她争取政治庇护的努力遇到了一些问题。
So I was very upset.
所以我很不高兴。
And I was sitting in my room, and she came in.
我坐在我的房间里，她进来了。
And she started dancing.
她开始跳舞。
And she stole one of my make-up and put it on.
她还偷了我的一种化妆品给她涂上。
And she put all over her face, and she was, just so cute.
她把所有的东西都涂在脸上，真是太可爱了。
And I just look at her, and I started laughing.
我只是看着她，然后就开始笑。
And I thought about it, and I say, this little kid, she's away from her family, she's having a good time.
我想了想，我说，这个小孩子，她离开了家人，她过得很开心。
And just, you know, playing around.
只是，你知道，玩玩。
Me, I'm older than her.
我，我比她大。
I shouldn't sit and cry.
我不应该坐下来哭泣。
So we just went to the hallway and joined the other kids.
所以我们就去了走廊并加入了其他孩子。
Georgia seemed to know that since she was so much younger than everyone else, she could usually get her way.
乔治娅似乎知道，由于她比其他人年轻得多，所以她通常可以如愿以偿。
Either through petty stubbornness, or through charm.
要么是因为小小的固执，要么是因为魅力。
I was visiting the center around that time, and I remember how the staff would break program rules for her.
那时我正在参观该中心，我记得工作人员如何为她打破项目规则。
They snuck her extra candy.
他们偷走了她多余的糖果。
They brought her Barbie dolls, which she coveted.
他们给她带来了她梦寐以求的芭比娃娃。
They hired a clown for her birthday.
他们雇了一个小丑为她庆祝生日。
The older girls like Sagal used their allowances to buy her presents.
像萨加尔这样年纪较大的女孩用她们的零用钱给她买礼物。
And they would take turns braiding her hair.
他们会轮流给她编辫子。
They taught her phrases in Spanish and Chinese.
他们教她西班牙语和汉语短语。
When the children posed for photographs, Georgia, like a little Zelig, would dance her way into these pictures.
当孩子们摆好姿势拍照时，乔治亚就会像小泽利格一样跳舞进入这些照片。
At the center she learned to ride a bike.
在中心，她学会了骑自行车。
She rode her first elevator.
她第一次乘坐电梯。
She learned to swim at the nearby YMCA.
她在附近的基督教青年会学会了游泳。
Meanwhile, Hugo tried to figure out her future.
与此同时，雨果试图弄清楚她的未来。
Which first meant figuring out her past.
这首先意味着要弄清楚她的过去。
In the afternoons, Hugo invited Georgia to come visit him at his first floor office.
下午，雨果邀请乔治娅去他一楼的办公室拜访。
And I remember sitting in my desk, and she was not quite awake yet after her nap.
我记得坐在我的办公桌上，她小睡后还没有完全醒来。
And she'd come in, and kind of poke her head in the door.
她进来了，把头伸进门里。
And she just would show me her smile, and then go back outside.
她只是向我微笑，然后就出去了。
And I said, come on in Georgia.
我说，来佐治亚州吧。
I would show her pictures of Jamaica.
我会给她看牙买加的照片。
And she'd say, oh, that looks like where I used to live.
她会说，哦，那看起来就像我以前住的地方。
Even after three months at the center, no one knew much about Georgia.
即使在中心呆了三个月，仍然没有人对佐治亚州有太多了解。
Where she was from in Jamaica, who her parents were, how she ended up in this country with this woman from Milwaukee.
她来自牙买加的哪里，她的父母是谁，她是如何和这个来自密尔沃基的女人来到这个国家的。
She was a three year old girl without a history.
她是一个没有病史的三岁女孩。
No one knew what to do with her.
没有人知道该拿她做什么。
Three months turned into four, and eventually into six.
三个月变成了四个月，最后变成了六个月。
Through all of this, the only absolute that Hugo knew, was that if Georgia stayed at the center, she'd be OK.
通过这一切，雨果唯一知道的是，如果乔治亚留在中间，她就会没事。
But he knew she couldn't remain there indefinitely.
但他知道她不能无限期地留在那里。
There were many takers in the program that wanted to take care of Georgia for the rest of her life.
该计划中有许多接受者希望照顾乔治亚的余生。
Including yourself?
包括你自己？
Hugo Ruiz I, unfortunately, I was probably the first one in line.
不幸的是，雨果·鲁伊斯（Hugo Ruiz）我可能是第一个排队的。
I think I had been a father to her fairly easily.
我想我很容易成为她的父亲。
Why has the US government kept this three year old in detention for six months?
为什么美国政府要把这个三岁的孩子关押六个月？
Eye on America investigates.
关注美国进行调查。
In the wake of Elian Gonzales, Georgia's story made national news.
在埃利安·冈萨雷斯之后，乔治亚州的故事成为全国新闻。
And the outrage was that a three year old girl had been in custody for so long.
令人愤慨的是，一个三岁的女孩被关押了这么长时间。
TV crews parked outside the center.
电视台工作人员把车停在中心外。
Local congressmen, along with Jesse Jackson, demanded a meeting with Georgia to make sure she was OK.
当地国会议员和杰西·杰克逊要求与乔治亚州会面，以确保她没事。
Which of course she was.
她当然是。
They wanted something done for this three year old girl.
他们希望为这个三岁的女孩做点什么。
But there really weren't any clear options.
但确实没有任何明确的选择。
Then a reporter from Milwaukee located Georgia's mother near Runaway Bay, a resort town on Jamaica's north coast.
随后，密尔沃基的一名记者在牙买加北海岸的度假小镇逍遥湾附近找到了乔治亚的母亲。
It appeared that Georgia's mother had willingly given Georgia to the Milwaukee woman, in the hope that she might have a better life in America.
看来，乔治亚的母亲心甘情愿地将乔治亚送给了这位密尔沃基的女人，希望她能在美国过上更好的生活。
Georgia's mother also made it clear to authorities that she wanted Georgia back home.
乔治亚的母亲也向当局明确表示，她希望乔治亚回家。
So a decision was made to reunite Georgia with her mother.
于是决定让乔治亚与她的母亲团聚。
And while that seemed like the obvious choice, it worried those who had taken care of her.
虽然这似乎是显而易见的选择，但它让那些照顾她的人感到担忧。
What does it mean to send a child back to a parent who was willing to give her away?
将孩子送回愿意将她送走的父母身边意味着什么？
This question weighed heavily on Hugo.
这个问题深深地困扰着雨果。
When it came time to go back to Jamaica, I was the one that went back with her.
到了要回牙买加的时候，我是和她一起回去的。
And that was a tough trip.
那是一次艰难的旅行。
It was a very difficult trip.
这是一次非常艰难的旅行。
Every child deserves to be with their parent.
每个孩子都应该和父母在一起。
In the case of Georgia, given the background of what happened, my fear would be that Georgia would be put through another episode, much like first one.
就佐治亚州而言，考虑到所发生事件的背景，我担心佐治亚州将经历另一次事件，就像第一件事一样。
Georgia left the center in June of 2000, just two weeks after she'd turned four.
2000 年 6 月，乔治亚离开了该中心，当时她刚满四岁，两周后。
Hugo woke her early for a 6:00 AM flight.
雨果很早就叫醒了她，准备搭乘早上 6:00 的航班。
She wore her favorite outfit, a blouse with umbrellas, blue jeans, and tennis shoes with blinking lights.
她穿着她最喜欢的衣服，一件带雨伞的衬衫、蓝色牛仔裤和带有闪烁灯光的网球鞋。
Hugo tried to prepare Georgia for the trip, letting her know that he was taking her to her mother.
雨果试图让乔治亚做好这次旅行的准备，让她知道他要带她去见她的母亲。
But it soon became apparent that Georgia thought this was simply a visit.
但很快人们就发现，格鲁吉亚认为这只是一次访问。
And that she'd return to Chicago with Hugo.
她会和雨果一起回到芝加哥。
When they arrived at the airport in Kingston, they were greeted by a representative from the Jamaican government.
当他们抵达金斯敦机场时，牙买加政府代表迎接了他们。
I introduced her to the gentleman that came in from the Jamaican Child and Welfare Services, and said, this is the guy that's going to take you back to your mom.
我把她介绍给来自牙买加儿童和福利服务中心的那位先生，并说，这个人会带你回到你妈妈身边。
And then she asked me the real tough question, that I can still remember her little face, and she had all her favorite toys.
然后她问了我一个真正棘手的问题，我仍然记得她的小脸，她有她最喜欢的所有玩具。
And she went back with lots of bags and luggage.
她带着很多袋子和行李回来了。
And she was holding her favorite doll, and she said, "You're coming with me?" And I had to tell her that I wasn't.
她抱着她最喜欢的洋娃娃，她说：“你要跟我一起去吗？”我不得不告诉她我不是。
Tough.
艰难的。
Tough to see a child that trusts you and cares about you.
很难看到一个信任你、关心你的孩子。
You sort of feel like you're in them now.
你感觉自己现在就在其中。
(PHONE BEEPS, RINGING) Alex Kotlowitz This past May, Hugo began to look for Georgia.
（电话铃声响起）亚历克斯·科特洛维茨（Alex Kotlowitz） 今年五月，雨果开始寻找乔治亚州。
She would be nearly eight years old.
她那时已经快八岁了。
I'm looking for Georgia Norman.
我在找乔治亚·诺曼。
Do you know a young girl by the name of Georgia Norman?
你认识一个名叫乔治亚·诺曼的年轻女孩吗？
Well, I'm calling from the United States.
嗯，我是从美国打来的。
I'm trying to find a friend of mine that I met a long time ago.
我正在寻找我很久以前认识的一个朋友。
And I'm just trying to find out where she's at.
我只是想知道她在哪里
In those intervening four years, Hugo hadn't stopped worrying about Georgia.
在这四年里，雨果一直没有停止对乔治亚州的担忧。
He wondered what kind of life she had in Jamaica, if in fact she was still there.
他想知道如果她真的还在那里的话，她在牙买加过着什么样的生活。
Maybe her mother had given her away again.
也许她母亲又把她送走了。
In the main hallway of the center, he had hung a photo of Georgia on roller skates, taken just before she left the center, on her birthday.
在中心的主走廊上，他挂了一张乔治亚穿着溜冰鞋的照片，是在她生日那天离开中心前拍摄的。
And he held on to the two American Airline ticket stubs that he used to fly Georgia back home.
他还保留着两张美国航空的机票存根，用来飞乔治亚州回国。
They remained in his wallet for four years.
它们在他的钱包里呆了四年。
Well I want to find Georgia.
好吧，我想找到乔治亚州。
I want to know what happened.
我想知道发生了什么事。
I want to find out what is that has gone on in her life.
我想知道她的生活中发生了什么。
One of the things that I told Georgia when we parted in Kingston was that I would see her soon.
当我们在金斯顿分别时，我告诉乔治亚的一件事是我很快就会见到她。
And it's been a while, and I want to be able to keep my word.
已经有一段时间了，我希望能够信守诺言。
Over the past few years, Hugo had talked to me about going down to Jamaica to find Georgia.
在过去的几年里，雨果曾和我谈论过去牙买加寻找乔治亚州的事。
He had never done anything like this with any other children from the center.
他从来没有对中心的其他孩子做过这样的事。
This past spring, I suggested we finally make the trip.
去年春天，我建议我们终于可以去旅行了。
Truth was, we weren't even certain we'd be able to find her.
事实是，我们甚至不确定能否找到她。
We pulled an old phone number from her lawyer's documents.
我们从她律师的文件中取出了一个旧电话号码。
We tried calling Jamaicans with the same last name.
我们尝试用相同的姓氏称呼牙买加人。
But nothing.
但什么也没有。
Then shortly before we were going to depart, I found Sheila Ramos, the Milwaukee woman who had brought Georgia into this country with a forged visa.
然后在我们出发前不久，我找到了希拉·拉莫斯，这位密尔沃基妇女用伪造的签证将佐治亚州带入了这个国家。
Remember, officials initially believed that she might be trafficking in children, planning to sell Georgia.
请记住，官员们最初认为她可能正在贩卖儿童，并计划出售格鲁吉亚。
That turned out not to be the case.
事实证明并非如此。
But given those early suspicions, I was surprised that she so readily agreed to talk to me.
但考虑到这些早期的怀疑，我很惊讶她如此爽快地同意与我交谈。
I would have thought she'd want to put the whole episode behind her.
我本以为她想把整个事件抛在脑后。
I drove to her home in Milwaukee, not sure what to expect.
我开车去她在密尔沃基的家，不知道会发生什么。
I stop at custom, and they want to see her birth certificate.
我在海关停下来，他们想看她的出生证明。
And they say, who is she?
他们说，她是谁？
That's when I say, that's the little girl that's coming to live with me.
就在那时我说，那就是要和我住在一起的小女孩。
And then that's when they say, hold up.
然后他们就会说，坚持住。
I didn't think I did nothing wrong.
我不认为我做错了什么。
When Sheila Ramos tells the story of her decision to take Georgia back to the US with her, it seems surprisingly innocent.
当希拉·拉莫斯讲述她决定将乔治亚州带回美国的故事时，她显得出奇的无辜。
And at the same time, strangely spur of the moment.
与此同时，奇怪的是一时冲动。
Sheila's 50 and married, works with inner city youth, and has two grown children of her own.
希拉 50 岁，已婚，与市中心的年轻人一起工作，自己有两个已成年的孩子。
Once a year Sheila would bring a group of Milwaukee teenagers to Jamaica, and on one visit, she met Georgia and her mother, Margaret Francis.
每年，希拉都会带着一群密尔沃基青少年去牙买加，在一次访问中，她遇到了乔治亚和她的母亲玛格丽特·弗朗西斯。
Margaret would bring Georgia by the hotel so she could swim in its pool.
玛格丽特会把乔治亚带到酒店，这样她就可以在酒店的游泳池里游泳。
Margaret and Sheila became friendly and stayed in touch.
玛格丽特和希拉变得友好并保持联系。
When Sheila returned the next year, the idea of her taking Georgia back to the US came up.
当希拉第二年回国时，她就产生了将佐治亚州带回美国的想法。
And she came over, she said, it would be real nice if she can have a nice family to go home to.
她过来了，她说，如果她能有一个美好的家庭回家，那就太好了。
And I say well, I mean she can easily come and visit if she like.
我说好吧，我的意思是，如果她愿意的话，她可以很容易地来拜访。
And then, she said, Sheila, that'd be real good, you know.
然后，她说，希拉，那真是太好了，你知道。
She said you can be the godmother, or I could be her legal guardian, or something like that.
她说你可以是教母，或者我可以是她的法定监护人，或者类似的东西。
And when I came back over to Jamaica, like I said two years later, she said well we're going to go to court.
当我回到牙买加时，就像我两年后说的那样，她说好吧，我们要去法庭。
It all seems almost, casual's not the right word, but kind of matter of fact.
一切看起来都差不多，“随意”这个词不太恰当，但确实是这样。
I mean that you don't say to her, well why would you want to give her up.
我的意思是，你不会对她说，你为什么要放弃她。
It's, you--
是，你——
And it could be because it's like, because I see the poverty there.
可能是因为我看到了那里的贫困。
So, to me, when she said because she would have a better life with you.
所以，对我来说，当她说因为和你在一起她会过上更好的生活。
I didn't ask questions.
我没有问问题。
I said, well, yeah she will have a better life with me.
我说，好吧，是的，她和我在一起会过上更好的生活。
Because you can see the child.
因为你可以看到孩子。
You know, she was not dirty, but don't have nice clothes.
要知道，她并不脏，只是没有好看的衣服。
I just looked at her and said OK.
我只是看着她说好吧。
And that was that.
就是这样。
It didn't even occur to Sheila that she'd need anything more than legal guardianship to bring Georgia into the US.
希拉甚至没有想到，要将佐治亚州带入美国，除了合法监护之外，她还需要其他任何东西。
Her husband Carlos though, had reservations.
但她的丈夫卡洛斯却持保留态度。
And when he met Margaret, he wasn't reassured.
当他见到玛格丽特时，他并没有放心。
There wasn't no curiosity coming out of her.
她身上没有一丝好奇心。
And I said, ask me something.
我说，问我一件事。
You know, no curiosity.
你知道，没有好奇心。
No, how do you guys live, how are you going to do this.
不，你们怎么生活，你们要怎么做。
No questions was come out of her there.
她没有问出任何问题。
That puzzled me and worried me a little bit.
这让我感到困惑，也让我有点担心。
I said, come on, man.
我说，来吧，伙计。
Act like a, act like you're sad, you know.
表现得像个，表现得像你很伤心，你知道的。
You're giving up your child, you know.
你正在放弃你的孩子，你知道的。
But I didn't sense that, not once.
但我没有感觉到，一次也没有。
Never once did she change her mind.
她从来没有改变过主意。
In the end Carlos gave in, because Sheila wanted it so much.
最后卡洛斯屈服了，因为希拉太想要了。
So it would be a real thrill for me, because I have two boys.
所以这对我来说真的很兴奋，因为我有两个男孩。
And I always wanted a daughter.
我一直想要一个女儿。
I would've probably spoiled her to death.
我可能会把她宠死的。
She'd probably be in probably everything-- karate, ballet, model.
她可能什么都适合——空手道、芭蕾舞、模特。
She'd probably be in everything.
她可能会参与一切。
After spending an afternoon with Sheila, and meeting the people around her, I was convinced that her intentions were good.
在与希拉度过了一个下午并与她周围的人见面后，我确信她的意图是好的。
She runs a small youth center, and not long ago took in a 17 year old neighborhood girl who'd been abandoned by her family.
她经营着一家小型青少年中心，不久前还收留了一位被家人抛弃的 17 岁邻家女孩。
The girl calls Sheila mom.
女孩称希拉为妈妈。
But here's the last thing I expected to hear.
但这是我最不想听到的。
Four years after trying to bring Georgia into this country, she's now trying again.
在试图将佐治亚州纳入这个国家四年后，她现在再次尝试。
She's attempting to formally adopt her.
她正试图正式收养她。
And though her first effort was denied, she is now appealing the decision.
尽管她的第一次努力被拒绝，但她现在正在对这一决定提出上诉。
She had stayed in close touch with Margaret.
她与玛格丽特一直保持着密切的联系。
There had been regular visits, and they speak every week.
他们定期拜访，每周都会发表讲话。
And so Sheila was also able to solve the mystery of how to find Georgia.
于是希拉也解开了如何找到乔治亚的谜团。
She gave me Margaret's phone number, and Hugo called to arrange a visit.
她给了我玛格丽特的电话号码，雨果打电话安排拜访。
As we headed down to Jamaica, we worried about what kind of situation we'd find Georgia in.
当我们前往牙买加时，我们担心格鲁吉亚会陷入什么样的境地。
Whether she was still being cared for, what could be going on that her mother was still trying so hard to give her away.
到底是不是还有人照顾她，到底是怎么回事，她的母亲还是千方百计要把她送人。
In a sense, things had come full circle.
从某种意义上说，事情又回到了原点。
Four years ago, Georgia must have felt abandoned.
四年前，佐治亚州一定感觉被遗弃了。
First by her mother, then by Sheila, and finally by Hugo.
首先是她的母亲，然后是希拉，最后是雨果。
And now four years later, Georgia was back with her mother, and faced being sent away yet again.
四年后，乔治亚回到了母亲身边，但又面临着被送走的危险。
It's exactly what Hugo had feared.
这正是雨果所担心的。
Coming up, Alex and Hugo in Jamaica.
即将到来，亚历克斯和雨果在牙买加。
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
This American Life, I'm Ira Glass.
这个美国生活，我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Alex Kotlowitz's story continues, tracking down a little girl after four years.
亚历克斯·科特洛维茨的故事仍在继续，四年后追踪一个小女孩。
We arrived in Runaway Bay, Jamaica, on Memorial Day weekend.
我们在阵亡将士纪念日周末抵达牙买加逍遥湾。
Margaret and Georgia had agreed to meet us at the hotel that first evening.
玛格丽特和乔治亚同意第一天晚上在酒店与我们见面。
And so we waited for them near the front door, watching a game of netball on the lobby's television.
于是我们在前门附近等他们，一边观看大厅电视上的无板篮球比赛。
They soon arrived.
他们很快就到了。
They were holding hands.
他们手牵手。
Georgia was four years older, nearly eight now, but she looked unmistakably like the young girl I'd met in Chicago.
乔治娅比她大四岁，现在快八岁了，但她看起来毫无疑问就像我在芝加哥遇到的那个小女孩。
She wore her hair in braids, two to the side like pigtails, and a double braid down her back.
她把头发编成辫子，两条辫子像辫子一样编在一边，在背后编了一条双辫子。
Hugo approached Georgia.
雨果接近格鲁吉亚。
How are you?
你好吗？
How are you?
你好吗？
Alex Kotlowitz She didn't recognize him, and hid behind her mother, clutching one of her legs.
亚历克斯·科特洛维茨 她没有认出他，躲在母亲身后，抓着她的一条腿。
You remember me?
你还记得我吗？
Do you?
你？
I know I lost a little bit of hair.
我知道我失去了一点头发。
Both Georgia and her mother had dressed up for the occasion.
乔治亚和她的母亲都盛装出席了这个场合。
Margaret, a sturdily built woman with a shortly cropped afro, wore a white linen shorts suit.
玛格丽特是一位身材魁梧的女性，留着短发爆炸头，穿着白色亚麻短裤套装。
Georgia wore a neatly ironed white button down blouse, and a short blue denim skirt.
乔治娅穿着一件熨烫整齐的白色纽扣衬衫和一条蓝色牛仔短裙。
We went and sat by the pool and Georgia, understandably wary of the microphone, kept her distance.
我们走到泳池边坐下，乔治亚对麦克风保持着距离，这是可以理解的。
Hugo sat in a chair, and Georgia stood a few feet away.
雨果坐在椅子上，乔治娅站在几英尺外。
So, how are you honey?
那么，亲爱的，你好吗？
You look so cute.
你看起来很可爱。
You've grown quite a bit.
你已经成长不少了。
You were only this size when I brought you.
我带你来的时候你只有这个尺寸。
Do you remember when I brought you here?
你还记得我带你来这里的时候吗？
Do you?
你？
Yes.
是的。
Hugo Ruiz It's kind of like I thought.
雨果·鲁伊斯 有点像我想的那样。
She would probably be shy and not remember, and that it would take a while to warm up.
她可能会害羞不记得，而且需要一段时间才能热身起来。
And, but, I think after a little bit of talking with her, she started to make the connection.
而且，但是，我想在与她交谈了一会儿之后，她开始建立联系。
We had brought along photographs of two of the teenagers who had been particularly close to Georgia in Chicago.
我们带来了两名青少年的照片，他们在芝加哥与佐治亚州关系特别密切。
One was of [?
其中之一是[?
Bi-wi ?] Lin, a girl from China.
Bi-wi？] Lin，一个来自中国的女孩。
And the other was a photograph taken at the center of Sagal and Georgia.
另一张是在萨加尔和佐治亚州中心拍摄的照片。
And Sagal.
还有萨加尔。
Remember Sagal?
还记得萨加尔吗？
Georgia Yeah.
乔治亚州 是的。
In the photos, Sagal is kneeling, her cheek pressed up against Georgia's.
照片中，萨加尔跪着，脸颊贴着乔治亚的脸颊。
Both are smiling, their arms slung around each other.
两人都微笑着，手臂互相搂住。
And see this one, she hasn't seen this one.
还有看这个，这个她还没见过。
That's Sagal.
那是萨加尔。
She's from Somalia.
她来自索马里。
OK.
好的。
Hugo Ruiz She used to really take care of her a lot.
Hugo Ruiz 她过去真的很照顾她。
Margaret smiled timidly.
玛格丽特怯生生地笑了笑。
While she's reserved, almost shy, it was clear she appreciated hearing of Georgia's time in Chicago.
虽然她很内向，甚至有点害羞，但很明显，她很高兴听到乔治亚在芝加哥的经历。
Though she never asked Hugo any questions about her life there.
尽管她从未问过雨果任何有关她在那里生活的问题。
I remembered Sheila's husband, Carlos, telling me how incurious she was.
我记得希拉的丈夫卡洛斯告诉我她是多么不好奇。
Margaret told Hugo about a visit she and Georgia took to Bob Marley's grave site.
玛格丽特告诉雨果她和乔治亚参观了鲍勃·马利的墓地。
Georgia walked over from the pool at that point.
乔治亚这时从泳池里走了过来。
I know what you're talking about.
我知道你在说什么。
About Bob Marley.
关于鲍勃·马利。
I know a lot about him.
我对他了解很多。
I know his [?
我知道他的[?
story ?], his temper, his house.
故事？]，他的脾气，他的房子。
And I know when he was born and I know when he died.
我知道他什么时候出生，也知道他什么时候死。
Ah ha.
啊哈。
Alex Kotlowitz Georgia was warming up to Hugo.
亚历克斯·科特洛维茨乔治亚州正在与雨果热身。
They traded facts about Bob Marley for a while.
他们交换了一段关于鲍勃·马利的事实。
And then her attention drifted toward the pool.
然后她的注意力就转移到了水池上。
She waded in, and Hugo encouraged her to go deeper.
她涉水而入，雨果鼓励她走得更深。
She looked back at her mom, like any good kid would, for permission.
她回头看着妈妈，就像任何好孩子都会做的那样，寻求许可。
You've done a real good job with her.
你和她相处得非常好。
She just seems like a real sweet girl, and all that she has done, is she's grown up.
她看起来就像一个真正可爱的女孩，她所做的一切就是她长大了。
At the outdoor restaurant Margaret chose for dinner, a neighborhood hangout, music blared through refrigerator-sized speakers stacked one on top of the other.
玛格丽特选择在一家邻里聚会的户外餐厅吃晚饭，冰箱大小的扬声器一个叠一个地放着，音乐声震耳欲聋。
It was difficult to have a conversation.
很难进行交谈。
It was uncomfortable sitting around this picnic table, barely able to exchange a word.
坐在这张野餐桌旁很不舒服，几乎无法交流一句话。
But it was easy to see that Margaret adored Georgia, and that Georgia adored her mom.
但很容易看出玛格丽特崇拜乔治亚，而乔治亚也崇拜她的妈妈。
They shared a plate of chicken.
他们分享了一盘鸡肉。
And at one point, Georgia snuggled up against her mother, and together they sang along with the music.
有一次，乔治娅依偎在她的母亲身边，他们一起随着音乐唱歌。
Margaret and Hugo tried over the music to talk about the adoption.
玛格丽特和雨果试着听音乐来谈论收养的事情。
But Georgia soon ran out of food.
但乔治亚州很快就耗尽了食物。
You want more jerk chicken?
你想要更多的烤鸡吗？
You do?
你做？
Come on, let's go get some.
来吧，我们去买一些。
Come on Georgia, help me.
乔治亚来吧，帮帮我。
I asked Georgia, I said, come on, give me your hand.
我问乔治亚，我说，来吧，把手给我。
I haven't held your hand for such a long time.
我已经很久没有牵过你的手了。
And she says, but they're so greasy.
她说，但它们太油腻了。
And I said it doesn't matter, here, come on, give me your hand.
我说没关系，来吧，把手给我。
So she gave me her hand and we went up and walked up the steps and put the order in.
于是她向我伸出了手，我们走上台阶，下了订单。
And I asked her, I said, so Georgia, what do you want to do?
我问她，我说，乔治亚，你想做什么？
She said, well, I want to go to Chicago.
她说，好吧，我想去芝加哥。
That sort of surprised me.
这让我有点惊讶。
It surprised me that she would say that.
她会这么说让我很惊讶。
I said why, she says, because I like it there.
我说为什么，她说，因为我喜欢那里。
And I just wonder what it is that she liked about Chicago.
我只是想知道她喜欢芝加哥的什么。
Or I wonder if, as some of the other children sometimes are, if she was coached to say that.
或者我想知道，就像其他一些孩子有时所做的那样，她是否是被指导说出来的。
Georgia's answer unnerved Hugo.
乔治亚的回答让雨果感到不安。
It wasn't what he had expected.
这不是他所期望的。
Especially after only a couple of hours together.
尤其是在一起仅仅几个小时之后。
Hugo and I assumed that Georgia was mimicking what her mother clearly wanted for her.
雨果和我认为乔治亚正在模仿她母亲明确希望她做的事情。
As close as she and Georgia seemed, she was still planning to send her to live with Sheila in America.
尽管她和乔治亚看起来很亲密，但她仍然计划将她送到美国与希拉一起生活。
Back at the hotel, Hugo and I talked about the evening.
回到酒店，雨果和我谈论了当晚的事情。
I'm happy that she is the way she is.
我很高兴她就是这样。
She's clearly attached to her mom.
她显然很依恋她的妈妈。
She seems like a very normal kid.
她看起来是一个非常正常的孩子。
It must be somewhat of a relief.
这一定是一种解脱。
Because I know you were anxious, and I know I was anxious, and I didn't have anywhere near as much at stake as you did about what we were going to find.
因为我知道你很焦虑，我也知道我很焦虑，而且对于我们要找到的东西，我并没有像你那样面临那么多的风险。
It really is a relief.
这确实是一种解脱。
I know her recollections are not as vivid as I had hoped.
我知道她的回忆并不像我希望的那么清晰。
But you know, that's also good.
但你知道，这也很好。
It's also good that she's able to go ahead, and move from that to bond with her mom the way she did.
她能够继续前进，并像她那样与妈妈建立联系，这也是件好事。
I still think it would be very difficult for her to leave her mom.
我仍然认为她很难离开她妈妈。
The next morning, Georgia, her mother, and her mother's friend Maury, picked us up at the hotel to visit their home.
第二天早上，乔治亚、她的母亲和她母亲的朋友莫里到酒店接我们去参观他们的家。
We wound our way along the serpentine roads of Jamaica's interior.
我们沿着牙买加内陆的蜿蜒道路蜿蜒前行。
It took half an hour to drive the eight miles, past groves of fruit trees, around hairpin turns.
开车花了半个小时，行驶了八英里，经过果树林，绕过发夹弯。
Through the center of Brown's Town, a bustling place where men were drinking beer and playing dominoes on the sidewalk.
穿过布朗镇的中心，这是一个熙熙攘攘的地方，人们在人行道上喝着啤酒，玩着多米诺骨牌。
Margaret's house is rather remote, on the far outskirts of the town.
玛格丽特的房子相当偏僻，位于城镇的远郊。
We turned on to a rutted dirt road, and then on to another dirt road, which was a slushy brown from yesterday's rains.
我们转向一条有车辙的土路，然后又转向另一条土路，昨天的雨让这条土路变成了泥泞的棕色。
We finally pulled up alongside a narrow concrete structure, which had been built into a steep hill.
我们终于把车停在一座狭窄的混凝土结构旁边，它建在一座陡峭的山上。
Margaret's home had belonged to her uncle, who had recently died.
玛格丽特的家属于她刚刚去世的叔叔。
In places, the concrete is chipped away.
有些地方的混凝土被剥落。
Most of the window panes are missing or broken.
大多数窗玻璃丢失或损坏。
There's no plumbing.
没有管道。
Margaret showed us around.
玛格丽特带我们四处参观。
You see right now, in the next part there, the flooring needs to fix.
你现在看到了，在下一部分中，地板需要修理。
Yeah.
是的。
Alex Kotlowitz Along one side of the house, Margaret had hung a shower curtain.
亚历克斯·科特洛维茨 玛格丽特在房子的一侧挂了浴帘。
On a table sat a yellow plastic tub.
桌子上放着一个黄色塑料桶。
Yeah.
是的。
Hugo Ruiz OK, I see.
雨果·鲁伊斯 好的，我明白了。
So you've got to get this full and then you basically, you just kind of, OK.
所以你必须得到这个完整的然后你基本上，你只是有点，好吧。
That works.
那行得通。
That's why I really want a better life for Georgia, you understand?
这就是为什么我真的希望乔治亚州过上更好的生活，你明白吗？
We quickly realized that her mission for the day was to convince us how poor she was.
我们很快意识到她今天的任务是让我们相信她有多穷。
In order for the adoption with Sheila to go through, one of the things that Margaret has to prove is that she's not able to adequately care for Georgia.
为了顺利收养希拉，玛格丽特必须证明的一件事是她无法充分照顾乔治亚。
She knew Hugo had an important job working with immigrant children.
她知道雨果有一份重要的工作，与移民儿童一起工作。
And so she hoped he'd have some influence.
所以她希望他能有一些影响力。
With that in mind, Margaret showed us the front room where she and Georgia shared a bed.
考虑到这一点，玛格丽特向我们展示了她和乔治亚共用一张床的前室。
She pointed out two sheets of plywood, which covered a hole in the floor.
她指着两张胶合板，上面盖住了地板上的一个洞。
She told us that her grown nephew, grown niece, and her niece's two year old son, stayed in two small rooms off to the side.
她告诉我们，她成年的侄子、成年的侄女和她侄女两岁的儿子住在旁边的两个小房间里。
She took us into the kitchen, which is barely large enough for their two appliances, a gas stove and a rather small refrigerator.
她带我们走进厨房，厨房的大小几乎不足以容纳他们的两个电器，一个煤气灶和一个相当小的冰箱。
Which is empty, except for a pitcher of water and a brown bag of fruit.
除了一壶水和一袋棕色水果之外，里面是空的。
There are no sinks or cabinets.
没有水槽或橱柜。
When I asked about her bathroom, she nodded to their pit toilet, which sits on a ridge a short walk from the house.
当我问及她的浴室时，她向他们的坑式厕所点了点头，该厕所位于距离房子不远的山脊上。
Margaret marched us from room to room with the indifference of a tired museum guide.
玛格丽特带着疲惫的博物馆导游般的冷漠带着我们从一个房间走到另一个房间。
It was clear that if she hadn't thought it might help Georgia's chances to go to the US, she wouldn't have had us there at all.
很明显，如果她没有想到这可能有助于乔治亚州去美国的机会，她根本不会让我们去那里。
For our part, it felt voyeuristic.
对我们来说，这感觉有点偷窥。
It was, to be honest, terribly awkward.
老实说，这非常尴尬。
Hugo tried to put everyone at ease.
雨果试图让每个人都放松下来。
At the back of the house, we walked over to a stone cistern, which collects their drinking water off the house's tin roof.
在房子的后面，我们走到一个石头蓄水池，它从房子的铁皮屋顶收集饮用水。
Swimming pool?
游泳池？
Margaret [LAUGHTER] Yeah.
玛格丽特[笑声]是的。
How full does it get?
它有多满？
Does it get all the way to the top sometimes, or not?
有时它会一直到达顶部吗？
Yeah.
是的。
When the rain fall, all it fill up.
雨一落下，一切就都填满了。
And then it flow over.
然后就流过去了。
There's a lot of fish inside there now.
现在里面有很多鱼了。
So the fish will die once the fish are in there.
所以鱼一旦进去就会死。
There are fish in your water here?
你这里的水里有鱼吗？
How do they get them in?
他们如何让他们进来？
My nephew bring them and put them in there.
我的侄子把它们带来并把它们放在那里。
Her nephew had dumped some river perch into the drinking water, which was murky, and which she usually boils before drinking.
她的侄子把一些河鲈鱼倒入了饮用水中，饮用水浑浊，她通常在饮用前将其煮沸。
Hugo and Georgia wandered off to the side of the house.
雨果和乔治亚漫步到房子的一侧。
Georgia.
乔治亚州。
You remember how I used to play, over there in Chicago, with [?
你还记得我以前在芝加哥的时候是如何和[？
Bi-wi ?] and Sagal?
Bi-wi？]和萨加尔？
Sit down.
坐下。
Like this.
像这样。
The hands, patty cake.
手，馅饼。
Hugo sat down with Georgia to re-aquaint her with the game of patty cake.
雨果和乔治亚坐下来，让她重新熟悉了馅饼蛋糕的游戏。
Then one like this.
然后是这样的一个。
Back again.
又回来了。
Then with this one, no, the other side.
然后是这一边，不，是另一边。
And then again, then down.
然后再一次，然后下降。
Then up.
然后起来。
Mm-mm-mm.
嗯嗯嗯。
As they played, Georgia very quietly brought up Chicago, as she did on the first night.
当他们比赛时，乔治亚非常安静地提到了芝加哥，就像她在第一晚所做的那样。
She asked Hugo, if she were to come to America, and the same thing happened as last time, she gets stopped by immigration, would she end up with him?
她问Hugo，如果她来美国，又发生了上次一样的事情，被移民局拦住，她会和他在一起吗？
If I go back, and I don't have my visa, how would I [?
如果我回去后没有签证，我该怎么办[？
reach ?] where you are?
到达？] 你在哪里？
Maybe, if they catch you, if they catch you.
也许，如果他们抓住你，如果他们抓住你。
If they don't catch you, then you go with your, what's her name?
如果他们没有抓住你，那么你就跟着你走，她叫什么名字？
Sheila.
希拉。
Hugo Ruiz Sheila.
乌戈·鲁伊斯·希拉。
Where do you want to go, with Sheila, or with us?
你想去哪里，和希拉一起，还是和我们一起？
With you.
与你。
Alex Kotlowitz Hugo asked her why she wanted to return to Chicago.
亚历克斯·科特洛维茨·雨果问她为什么想回到芝加哥。
Because, she said, I want to see Sagal and [?
因为，她说，我想见萨加尔和[？
Bi-wi.
Bi-wi。
?] Meanwhile, Margaret and I were talking on the front porch.
？] 与此同时，玛格丽特和我在前廊聊天。
We leaned on the railing overlooking the tropical bush and the dirt road.
我们靠在栏杆上俯瞰热带灌木丛和土路。
I asked Margaret why she was so intent on giving Georgia to Sheila.
我问玛格丽特为什么她如此热衷于将乔治亚州送给希拉。
I really don't want to see her on the island.
我真的不想在岛上看到她。
Because of violence, and all those things.
因为暴力以及所有这些事情。
You have a lot like those cool little boys, and don't go to school, and just, you know.
你们有很多像那些很酷的小男孩一样，但不去上学，只是，你知道。
She told me that the local boys, many of whom don't go to school, harass Georgia, often grabbing her by the hand.
她告诉我，当地男孩（其中许多人不上学）骚扰乔治亚，经常抓住她的手。
Margaret also said that she worked as a domestic.
玛格丽特还说她做过家庭佣工。
But only part-time, because she wanted to be at home each day when George arrived from school.
但只是兼职，因为乔治每天放学时她都想呆在家里。
So you're worried that she's-- somebody might take advantage of her?
所以你担心她——有人可能会利用她？
Right.
正确的。
Alex Kotlowitz Has that happened at all, have people tried to do that?
Alex Kotlowitz 这种事真的发生过吗？人们尝试过这样做吗？
Like one evening she come from school, and she's telling me that, mommy you know what the guy on the bus tell me?
就像有一天晚上，她从学校回来，她告诉我，妈妈，你知道公交车上的那个人告诉我什么吗？
I said what.
我说啥。
He's giving me three more here.
他又给了我三个。
I said what?
我说啥？
Said he giving me three more here.
说他在这里再给我三个。
Because like, she's eight now, innocent.
因为她现在八岁了，天真无邪。
So he giving her three more years.
于是，他又给了她三年的时间。
Three more years.
还有三年。
The guy on the bus meant that's when Georgia will be old enough to be a mother.
公交车上的那个人意味着，到那时，乔治亚就已经足够大了，可以当母亲了。
Margaret, who's now 39, had her first child at 21.
玛格丽特现年 39 岁，21 岁时生下了她的第一个孩子。
And eventually had six children by four different men.
最终，四个不同的男人生下了六个孩子。
Georgia is her youngest.
乔治亚是她最小的孩子。
None of the men stuck around, including Georgia's father, who has disappeared from her life.
没有一个男人留下来，包括乔治亚的父亲，他已经从她的生活中消失了。
When Margaret's oldest turned 16, she informed Margaret that she was pregnant.
当玛格丽特的大女儿满 16 岁时，她告诉玛格丽特她怀孕了。
When Margaret heard that, she cried.
玛格丽特听到这句话，哭了。
So, I just don't want to see that happen to Georgia, I just want her to grow up.
所以，我只是不想看到这种事发生在乔治亚身上，我只是想让她长大。
And have things, have what she can have, innocence.
还有拥有的东西，拥有她能拥有的，纯真。
Like go to school and take her education.
就像去学校接受教育一样。
Pass her subject and get a nice job before she go on to wherever she go, have kids.
通过她的科目并找到一份好工作，然后再继续她要去的地方，生孩子。
Cannot walk in my footstep.
无法跟随我的脚步。
She can't walk in my footsteps, Margaret says.
“她无法追随我的脚步，”玛格丽特说。
Not I hope she doesn't, she can't.
不，我希望她不会，她不能。
Margaret was adamant about that.
玛格丽特对此很坚定。
Do you ever think, how am I going to be here without my daughter?
你有没有想过，如果没有我的女儿，我怎么会在这里？
[UNINTELLIGIBLE PHRASE].
[难以理解的短语]。
I always survived.
我总是活下来。
I just want the best for her.
我只想给她最好的。
But it's got to be hard for you.
但这对你来说一定很难。
I can tell how close you are with Georgia.
我可以看出你和乔治亚州有多亲近。
Yeah but, the reason why is because I don't have anybody to help me.
是的，但是，原因是因为我没有人帮助我。
So I want to do something for myself, because I don't want to lean on anyone for saying, give me this and give me that, now give me this.
所以我想为自己做点什么，因为我不想依赖任何人说，给我这个，给我那个，现在给我这个。
I want to have something for myself, actually something for myself too.
我想为自己拥有一些东西，实际上也为自己拥有一些东西。
I'm getting old.
我变老了。
I'm 39 years old.
我今年39岁了。
I want to have something for myself, you know friend?
我想为自己买点东西，你知道吗朋友？
But it's got to be so hard as a mother to let go.
但作为一个母亲，要放手是很难的。
Margaret didn't answer.
玛格丽特没有回答。
She swatted at the mosquitoes.
她拍打蚊子。
She stared at the bush on the other side of the road.
她盯着路对面的灌木丛。
I wondered if, given her reality, she had by necessity stopped asking herself these questions.
我想知道，考虑到她的现实，她是否有必要停止问自己这些问题。
All I could think to say to break the long silence was--
为了打破长久的沉默，我只想说——
It's quite humid, huh?
天气很潮湿，是吧？
As we spent time in Jamaica, it became clear that Georgia's situation was not at all extraordinary.
当我们在牙买加呆了一段时间后，我们发现格鲁吉亚的情况一点也不特别。
Virtually everyone we met had a similar story to tell.
事实上我们遇到的每个人都有类似的故事要讲。
During the drive from Kingston to Runaway Bay, we had told our driver, [?
在从金斯敦开往逍遥湾的途中，我们告诉司机，[？
Ollie Forester, ?] about Georgia.
奥利·福雷斯特 (Ollie Forester)，？] 关于乔治亚州。
And he said that just a few days earlier, a complete stranger had left a five year old boy carrying a backpack full of clothes at the gate to his father's house.
他说，就在几天前，一个完全陌生的人把一个背着装满衣服的背包的五岁男孩留在了他父亲家门口。
They just left one at the gate.
他们只在门口留了一张。
They just left him at the gate, and just leave him like that.
他们就把他留在门口了，就这样把他留了下来。
His mother just come, and leave him like that.
他妈妈刚来，就这样丢下他了。
So your father's taking care of a child now?
那么你父亲现在正在照顾孩子吗？
Yes, right now.
是的，现在。
Yeah.
是的。
And it's not the first time.
这已经不是第一次了。
[?
[？
Ollie's ?] father, a farmer in his 70s, plans to raise this child.
奥利的？]父亲是一位 70 多岁的农民，计划抚养这个孩子。
Maybe even legally adopt him, if he can find the mother.
如果他能找到母亲，甚至可能合法收养他。
Then when we visited the Sunflower Hotel, where Margaret and Sheila first met, we encounter the hotel's owner, Vana Taylor.
然后，当我们参观玛格丽特和希拉第一次见面的向日葵酒店时，我们遇到了酒店的老板瓦娜·泰勒。
She told us this story of how she came to take in a child seven years ago.
她向我们讲述了七年前她如何收养一个孩子的故事。
The child is now eleven.
孩子现在十一岁了。
Vana was at the beach early one morning and saw a mother with her daughter.
一天清晨，瓦娜在海滩上看到一位母亲和她的女儿。
It was a school day.
那天是上学日。
And I said, why is the child not at school?
我说，孩子怎么没上学？
Because I'm always worried about that.
因为我总是担心这个。
And then the mother said, I have no clothes, I have no food, I have nothing to send the child to school.
然后妈妈说，我没有衣服，我没有食物，我没有什么可以送孩子上学。
So I said to her, you know, why don't you give me the child, or something like that.
所以我对她说，你知道吗，你为什么不把孩子给我，或者类似的东西。
And then she said, fine, you know.
然后她说，好吧，你知道。
She said to the child, do you want to go live with Ms. Taylor, and the child said, yes.
她对孩子说，你想和泰勒女士一起住吗？孩子说，是的。
That was it.
就是这样。
That matter of fact.
事实上这件事。
Vana Taylor That matter of fact.
瓦娜·泰勒 事实上。
And by the time I got home, she was here.
当我回到家时，她就在这里。
It's very easy, it's much easier than having one, isn't it?
这很简单，比拥有一个容易多了，不是吗？
[LAUGHTER]
[笑声]
There's a saying in Jamaica that once the children [UNINTELLIGIBLE PHRASE} kitten.
牙买加有句俗话，孩子们[难以理解的短语}曾经是小猫。
Meaning that just like a cat, people give away their children.
这意味着就像猫一样，人们会放弃自己的孩子。
This is Claudette Pious who works with children in Spanish Town, near Kingston.
我是克劳黛特·皮厄斯 (Claudette Pious)，她在金斯敦附近的西班牙镇从事儿童工作。
She says it's actually rare for Jamaican children to be sent to America.
她说，牙买加儿童被送往美国的情况实际上很少见。
Usually it's the parents who go, leaving behind their children with family, friends, or sometimes on their own.
通常是父母离开，将孩子留在家人、朋友身边，有时则独自离开。
It's become so common that there's a name for the kids left behind, barrel children.
这种现象变得如此普遍，以至于留守儿童有了一个名字：“桶里的孩子”。
Because they receive barrels of goods from their parents, mostly name-brand shoes and clothes.
因为他们从父母那里收到一桶桶的货物，大多是名牌鞋子和衣服。
Claudette herself was abandoned.
克劳黛特本人也被抛弃了。
Her mother emigrated to Canada in search of work, and left Claudette behind with an aunt.
她的母亲移民到加拿大寻找工作，并把克劳黛特留给了一位姑妈。
Claudette told me she never forgave her mother.
克劳黛特告诉我她从未原谅过她的母亲。
I got many letters.
我收到了很多信。
I still have some.
我还有一些。
And I can remember her sending me a tape recorder.
我记得她寄给我一台录音机。
And saying, I should talk on the tape recorder and send the tapes to her.
并说，我应该用录音机说话，然后把录音带寄给她。
I'd just sit by myself, and talk to this tape recorder.
我会一个人坐着，对着录音机说话。
Sometimes I'd quarrel with her.
有时我会和她吵架。
Sometimes I'd tell her all the things happening.
有时我会告诉她发生的所有事情。
Sometimes it was almost like a diary.
有时它几乎就像一本日记。
If it was a good day, I would tell her.
如果今天天气好的话，我会告诉她。
Some bad days, I would tell her.
有些糟糕的日子，我会告诉她。
But interestingly, I didn't send the tapes.
但有趣的是，我没有寄出录音带。
In her work with children today, Claudette won't take any in.
在今天的儿童工作中，克劳黛特不会接受任何影响。
She won't build a shelter.
她不会建造避难所。
She feels it's too important that they stay with their own families.
她觉得他们和自己的家人待在一起太重要了。
Her own mother eventually returned to Jamaica when Claudette was an adult.
当克劳黛特成年后，她自己的母亲最终回到了牙买加。
I remember saying to her, that whatever I become in life have nothing to do with you.
我记得对她说，无论我生活成什么样，都与你无关。
And she was very upset.
她很沮丧。
And she said, I was very ungrateful because she supported me.
她说，我很忘恩负义，因为她支持我。
She send the money.
她把钱寄过去。
And I said, it's not about the money.
我说，这不是钱的问题。
It's about that connection, not being there for me when I wanted to cry, when I wanted to laugh, when I wanted to-- just to hold you, and I wanted you to be close.
这是关于那种联系，当我想哭时，当我想笑时，当我想抱住你时，我没有在我身边，我希望你靠近。
Hugo believes what Claudette does, that if at all possible kids should stay with their parents.
雨果相信克劳黛特所做的，如果可能的话，孩子应该和父母呆在一起。
And like Claudette, he had had his own experience.
和克劳黛一样，他也有自己的经历。
Growing up in Peru, his family at one point fell on hard times.
他在秘鲁长大，家庭一度陷入困境。
His mother had the chance to give him up.
他的母亲有机会放弃他。
An uncle offered to raise him.
一位叔叔提出抚养他。
But she held on to Hugo.
但她坚持着雨果。
It was more important to her, poor or not, that her son be with his mom.
对她来说，无论贫穷与否，儿子和妈妈在一起更重要。
But in the nine years Hugo has been at the children's center, he's begun to understand why parents might let go of their children.
但雨果在儿童中心工作的九年里，他开始理解为什么父母可能会放弃自己的孩子。
He learned it first through the children from India, whose parents had been conned by smugglers into thinking they were sending their children to America to attend great schools and to live with well to-do families.
他首先通过来自印度的孩子们了解到这一点，这些孩子的父母被走私者欺骗，以为他们要把孩子送到美国上好学校并与富裕家庭生活在一起。
When in fact, the smugglers planned to put them to work at menial jobs.
事实上，走私者计划让他们从事卑微的工作。
Hugo would occasionally talk by phone with these parents.
雨果偶尔会通过电话与这些父母交谈。
And the first thing they'd ask about were the schools their children presumably attended.
他们首先要问的是他们的孩子可能就读的学校。
I used to be fairly judgemental as far as that went.
就此事而言，我曾经相当有判断力。
There's a lot of people that do not understand.
有很多人不明白。
But I understand today why they separate from their children.
但今天我明白了他们为什么要与孩子分开。
And I don't think they love them any less than we love our children.
我认为他们对他们的爱并不亚于我们对我们孩子的爱。
I just think that they're so desperate that they don't have any other options.
我只是觉得他们太绝望了，没有其他选择。
And I understand that piece a lot better today.
今天我对那篇文章有了更好的理解。
The interesting thing that perplexes me, I mean I think I can understand the first time around.
让我困惑的有趣的事情是，我认为我第一次就能理解。
Georgia's really young, she's three years old, and Margaret's living a really difficult life.
乔治亚真的很年轻，她才三岁，而玛格丽特过着非常困难的生活。
A woman comes along who she clearly on some level admires, maybe doesn't know well, and offers to take Georgia.
一个女人出现了，她在某种程度上显然很欣赏她，也许不太了解她，并提出要占领乔治亚州。
And Margaret goes along with it.
玛格丽特也同意了。
And then everything goes awry, and she gets her kid back.
然后一切都出了问题，她又找回了她的孩子。
And I would think that would be the most glorious moment in some ways.
我认为从某些方面来说这将是最辉煌的时刻。
You know, her--
你知道，她——
Yeah, and that she doesn't want-- she's still willing.
是的，虽然她不愿意——但她还是愿意。
Here we are four years later, and she's still willing and ready to give Georgia up.
四年后，她仍然愿意并准备放弃乔治亚州。
I think of what goes through Georgia's head right now.
我想到了乔治亚现在脑子里在想什么。
And I'm sure she has questions as well.
我确信她也有疑问。
That she's not able to express to her mom, or maybe to anyone.
她无法向她的妈妈或任何人表达。
Not yet anyway.
反正还没有。
Later on, I'm sure that she'll want some answers.
稍后，我确信她会想要一些答案。
What kind of questions?
什么样的问题？
Hugo Ruiz You know, why am I being sent here again?
雨果·鲁伊斯 你知道为什么我又被派到这里吗？
I'm here with my mom.
我和我妈妈在这里。
And at this age, it's going to be a fairly difficult separation, legal or not.
在这个年纪，无论合法与否，分居都将是相当困难的。
It's going to be a difficult situation.
这将是一个困难的局面。
But I don't know that Georgia will ever forget at this age.
但我不知道乔治亚州在这个年纪还会忘记这一切。
Because Georgia is now in what I consider to be a stable environment.
因为佐治亚州现在处于我认为稳定的环境中。
And this is where she should remain.
而这，才是她应该留在的地方。
[SINGING] Don't worry about a thing.
[唱歌] 别担心任何事情。
'Cause every little thing is going to be all right.
因为每件小事都会好起来的。
Tell you don't worry about a thing.
告诉你什么都不用担心。
That night at the hotel bar, Georgia sang along to the piano player.
那天晚上，在酒店的酒吧里，乔治亚跟着钢琴演奏者唱歌。
[SINGING] Rising sun in the morning, smile with the rising sun.
[歌唱] 清晨旭日初升，与旭日一起微笑。
Three little birds--
三只小鸟——
Margaret looked on, beaming.
玛格丽特微笑着看着。
It was the one time she seemed completely unburdened.
这是她第一次显得完全没有负担。
And it was the same with Georgia, as well.
佐治亚州也是如此。
Ironically, one of the reason she's doing so well, is Sheila.
讽刺的是，她表现如此出色的原因之一就是希拉。
Who sends $50 to $100 every couple of weeks.
谁每两周寄出 50 到 100 美元。
She's also paying for Georgia's private school education.
她还支付佐治亚州私立学校的教育费用。
[SINGING] Singing sweet songs of melodies pure and true.
[SINGING] 唱着旋律甜美的歌曲，纯净而真实。
This is our message to you.
这是我们给您的信息。
We left the next day after stopping by to bring Georgia presents and a cake to celebrate her eighth birthday.
我们在顺便带了乔治亚礼物和蛋糕来庆祝她的八岁生日后第二天就离开了。
As she waits for adults in two countries to figure out her fate, I suppose a hopeful thing is that she's been in the same place before, and came out of it OK.
当她等待两个国家的成年人弄清楚她的命运时，我想一件充满希望的事情是她以前也经历过同样的情况，并且顺利地摆脱了困境。
Or so it seemed.
或者看起来是这样。
What has to be toughest on Georgia though, are all the unknowns.
然而，对佐治亚州来说最艰难的是所有的未知数。
Hugo once told me that the longer he works with children like Georgia, it becomes more complicated, not less.
雨果曾经告诉我，他与乔治亚这样的孩子一起工作的时间越长，事情就会变得越复杂，而不是越简单。
So many of these children, they don't seem to fully belong anywhere.
这些孩子太多了，他们似乎不完全属于任何地方。
Alex Kotlowitz.
亚历克斯·科特洛维茨。
His most recent book is Never a City So Real.
他的最新著作是《Never a City So Real》。
Four years ago when Georgia came to the United States, about 5,000 minors were stopped at US borders and airports.
四年前，当佐治亚州来到美国时，大约有5000名未成年人在美国边境和机场被拦截。
This year, 6,300 are expected.
今年预计有 6,300 人。
The number of residential centers for them, like the one Hugo runs, has jumped from eight to twenty, in just four years.
在短短四年内，他们的居住中心（如雨果经营的居住中心）数量从八个跃升至二十个。
Our program's produced today by Diane Cook and myself, with Alex Blumberg, Wendy Dorr, Jane Feltes, Sarah Koenig, and Lisa Pollak.
今天我们的节目由黛安·库克和我本人以及亚历克斯·布隆伯格、温迪·多尔、简·费尔特斯、莎拉·科尼格和丽莎·波拉克制作。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Elizabeth Meister runs our website.
伊丽莎白·梅斯特 (Elizabeth Meister) 负责运营我们的网站。
Production help from Todd Bachman and Will [?
托德·巴赫曼和威尔的制作帮助[？
Reichel ?].
赖歇尔？]。
It is Will's last show.
这是威尔的最后一场演出。
He's performed bravely and capably in the face of great adversity, and we are sorry to see him go.
他在逆境中表现得勇敢而有能力，我们对他的离去感到遗憾。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our website www.thisamericanlife.org, where you can listen to our programs for free.
[鸣谢] 我们的网站 www.thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中免费收听我们的节目。
Or you know you can download audio of our show at audible.com/thisamericanlife.
或者您知道可以在 audible.com/thisamericanlife 下载我们节目的音频。
Where they have public radio programs, best selling books, even the New York Times, all at audible.com.
他们有公共广播节目、畅销书，甚至纽约时报，所有这些都在 audible.com 上。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight by Torey Malatia.
[资金来源] WBEZ 管理由 Torey Malatia 监督。
In the crowded gym locker room, I can report to you, he just repeats this mantra over and over--
在拥挤的健身房更衣室里，我可以向你报告，他只是一遍又一遍地重复这句口头禅——
"Can't throw in the towel.
“不能认输。
Can't throw in the towel."
不能认输。”
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。