267: Propriety - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #267 | June 11, 2004 267: Propriety Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 267 集 | 2004 年 6 月 11 日 267：版权说明：《This American Life》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass An apple, nobody gives their teacher an apple anymore.
序言 Ira Glass 一个苹果，没有人再给老师送苹果了。
In her first year of teaching first grade, here are the sorts of things that Mindy got from her kids.
在教一年级的第一年，明迪从她的孩子们那里得到了以下这些东西。
A typical first grader will bring me things that would range from students that wrapped up their old McDonald toys, a pencil from the dollar store wrapped up.
一个典型的一年级学生会给我带来各种各样的东西，包括学生们包装他们的旧麦当劳玩具、从一元店买来的一支铅笔。
Some people sent in homemade cookies, which is very sweet.
有人送来了自制的饼干，非常甜。
So last Christmas, the day before vacation, she has all the kids sitting on the carpet.
所以去年圣诞节，假期前一天，她让所有的孩子坐在地毯上。
And some of them have presents for her that they're all excited for her to open.
他们中的一些人还给她准备了礼物，他们都很高兴她能打开。
And she has treats for them.
她还为他们准备了好吃的。
And all the kids want to be picked.
所有的孩子都希望被选中。
And they're raising their hands.
他们举起了手。
So I have one student sitting so quietly and so anxious.
所以我有一个学生如此安静地坐着，如此焦虑。
So I call on him, and brings me up this bag.
所以我拜访了他，并给我带来了这个包。
I start opening it.
我开始打开它。
Like, oh, this is great.
就像，哦，这太棒了。
I pull out these black slippers with little silver speckles.
我拿出这双带有银色小斑点的黑色拖鞋。
And on the top, there's that puffy fssh, fssh kind of material, the real soft and feathery type of thing.
在顶部，有那种蓬松的 fssh、fssh 之类的材料，真正柔软、羽毛状的东西。
And on the front of the slipper, in bright red cursive writing, they say "Playerette," with a little Playboy bunny on the back of the slipper.
在拖鞋的正面，用鲜红色的草书写着“Playerette”，拖鞋的背面有一个花花公子小兔子。
So I pull these out, and I'm like, oh, aren't these fancy?
所以我把它们拿出来，我想，哦，这些不是很奇特吗？
And they all start chanting, 27 six-year-olds, put 'em on, put 'em on, put 'em on!
他们都开始高呼，27个六岁的孩子，穿上它们，穿上它们，穿上它们！
And they're all just cheering and shouting.
他们都只是欢呼和叫喊。
And the kid's face, he was so proud and so excited about the slippers.
还有孩子的脸，他对拖鞋是那么的骄傲和兴奋。
But in my head, I'm thinking, did the parents have no idea?
但我心里却在想，父母难道不知道吗？
Do you think, from a kid point of view, when they saw the slippers, they just read them as fancy?
你是否认为，从孩子的角度来看，当他们看到拖鞋时，他们只是认为它们很奇特？
Oh, absolutely.
哦，绝对是。
Ira Glass That's what it was.
艾拉·格拉斯 就是这样。
They had no idea that they said Playerette.
他们不知道他们说的是Playerette。
They had no idea, at least, I don't think that they had any idea what the bunny would have represented.
他们不知道，至少，我认为他们不知道兔子代表什么。
All they saw was fancy black slippers, silver sparkles, fuzzy things.
他们看到的只是漂亮的黑色拖鞋、银色闪光和毛茸茸的东西。
That's what I love about this so much, is that it wasn't just one kid's judgment that this is the perfect present, that it's the entire class of six-year-olds.
这就是我如此喜欢这个的原因，因为这不仅仅是一个孩子的判断，这是一个完美的礼物，这是整个班级的六岁孩子的判断。
Like we might disagree on other things, but there is one thing that we can agree on.
就像我们可能在其他事情上存在分歧，但有一件事我们可以达成一致。
Oh yeah.
哦，是的。
It wasn't just a boy or a girl or a couple of kids.
这不仅仅是一个男孩或一个女孩或几个孩子。
It was the whole class shouting, cheering.
全班同学都在欢呼、欢呼。
After school that day, as you might expect, Mindy nearly runs down the hall with her new slippers, eager to share the magic with a fellow first grade teacher.
那天放学后，正如你所料，明迪几乎穿着她的新拖鞋跑过大厅，渴望与一年级老师同事分享魔法。
So I'm walking down the hall, knock on her door.
于是我沿着走廊走去，敲了敲她的门。
You're never going to believe what one of my students gave me today.
你永远不会相信我的一位学生今天给了我什么。
I walk in.
我走进去。
I put the slippers on.
我把拖鞋穿上了。
She says, oh yeah?
她说，哦，是吗？
She pulls out her little lovely gift, some lingerie.
她拿出她可爱的小礼物，一些内衣。
And I literally, hhhuu, gasp.
我真的，哈哈哈，喘气。
What was it?
那是什么？
Mindy A thong and a little tank top.
Mindy 一条丁字裤和一件小背心。
Wait, a first grader gave her teacher or his teacher a thong and a tank top?
等等，一年级学生给了她的老师或他的老师一条丁字裤和一件背心？
Yeah.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Ira Glass Was it sexy?
Ira Glass 性感吗？
Or was it cotton, like, cute girl?
或者是棉花之类的可爱女孩？
I would say cute girl.
我会说可爱的女孩。
Ira Glass I say this as if it makes any difference at all.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 我这么说就好像这有什么不同一样。
It's still a thong.
它仍然是丁字裤。
Yeah.
是的。
At what point, exactly, are you in the store, or shopping online, whatever you're doing, at what point is that something that's OK to give your teacher, is what I'd like to know.
我想知道的是，你到底什么时候在商店，或者在网上购物，无论你在做什么，什么时候可以给你的老师一些东西。
Do you agree?
你同意？
Am I a little bit out of line?
我是不是有点过分了？
No, I think all of America, well, not all of America, but I think many people are with you on this, including me.
不，我认为全美国，嗯，不是全美国，但我认为很多人都同意你的观点，包括我。
OK.
好的。
Because at that point, when she held them-- and then I'm thinking, when they're looking through the sizes, are they checking you out?
因为那时，当她拿着它们时——然后我在想，当他们查看尺码时，他们是在检查你吗？
And that's clearly something that the parents helped order, yes?
这显然是父母帮忙订购的，是吗？
Oh yeah.
哦，是的。
Ira Glass The parents were in on that.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）的父母也参与其中。
I would say the parents completely ordered that.
我想说，父母完全是这么要求的。
It seems like that would be kind of an uncomfortable parent-teacher meeting after that.
看来那之后的家长会会有点不舒服。
If I was dating somebody, and they gave me a thong, and I hadn't known them that long, or we'd only been dating a short period of time, that would be like, OK, how inappropriate, right?
如果我和某人约会，他们给了我一条丁字裤，而我认识他们的时间不长，或者我们只约会了很短一段时间，那就会是，好吧，多么不合适，对吧？
OK, maybe this is the kind of etiquette question that we should all already know the answer to, but I have to say, I found it kind of a stumper.
好吧，也许这是一种我们都应该知道答案的礼仪问题，但我不得不说，我发现这有点令人困惑。
You're a first grade teacher, and the parents of your students buy you a thong, or slippers that say Playerette on them, not the right kind of gift for a teacher, you think.
你是一名一年级老师，你的学生的家长给你买了一条丁字裤或印有“Playerette”字样的拖鞋，你认为这不是送给老师的合适礼物。
So is it impolite to actually say something to them about it?
那么，实际上对他们说些什么是不礼貌的吗？
Or do you just accept graciously?
还是只是欣然接受？
Both teachers, in this case, accepted graciously.
在这种情况下，两位老师都慷慨地接受了。
So I, yeah, when I was writing out my thank-yous to my students, I just said, thank you for the thoughtful gift.
所以，是的，当我写下对学生的感谢时，我只是说，谢谢你们送来的这份贴心的礼物。
It was greatly appreciated.
非常感谢。
And I leave it at that, I guess, not really make it more of an embarrassing or strange, awkward situation.
我想我就这样吧，并没有真正让它变得更加尴尬或奇怪、尴尬的情况。
Perhaps there was a time when social rules were clear, when people knew what to say and do in certain situations.
也许曾经有一段时间，社会规则是明确的，人们知道在某些情况下该说什么、该做什么。
But the world changes fast.
但世界变化很快。
There are constantly new situations out there that leave us all improvising, inventing our own rules of propriety.
不断出现的新情况让我们不得不即兴发挥，发明自己的礼仪规则。
And that's the subject of today's program.
这就是今天节目的主题。
We have three stories of people forced to figure out how to maintain some decency and dignity in the face of some very unsettling situations.
我们有三个故事，讲述人们在面对一些非常令人不安的情况时被迫弄清楚如何保持体面和尊严。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life, distributed by Public Radio International.
这是来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Act One of our program today, Governments Say the Darnedest Things.
我们今天的节目第一幕，政府说最糟糕的事情。
In that act, government officials who want nothing more than a little civility, thank you very much, even when the facts contradict a lot of what they're saying.
在这一行动中，那些只想一点礼貌的政府官员非常感谢你们，即使事实与他们所说的有很多矛盾。
Act Two, Dems Gone Wild, in which a Republican tries to run for local office in a very Democratic district in New Jersey, evoking some rather disturbing behavior from his friends and neighbors.
第二幕，民主党狂野，一名共和党人试图竞选新泽西州一个非常民主党选区的地方公职，引起了他的朋友和邻居的一些相当令人不安的行为。
Act Three, Swiss Near Miss, a woman follows the rules of propriety.
第三幕，瑞士近亲小姐，女人遵守礼节。
A man does not.
男人则不然。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, The Government Says the Darnedest Things.
第一幕，政府说了最可怕的话。
There is a part of our government that is charged with enforcing politeness as a matter of law.
我们政府的一个部门负责依法强制执行礼貌行为。
And that's the Federal Communication Commission, which, among other things, has the thankless job of deciding which words and images can be put on radio and television.
这就是联邦通信委员会，它的职责之一是决定哪些文字和图像可以在广播和电视上播放，这是一项吃力不讨好的工作。
As you probably heard, there has been a new crackdown on indecency at the FCC in recent months.
您可能听说过，最近几个月，联邦通信委员会对不雅行为进行了新的打击。
And the case that represents the biggest break with the past has to do with the singer Bono getting an award at the Golden Globes and saying "F-ing brilliant" on national television.
而代表着与过去最大的决裂的案例与歌手波诺在金球奖上获奖并在国家电视台上说“F-ing 太棒了”有关。
In the past, the FCC has said that these fleeting, gratuitous uses of the F-word are harmless.
过去，美国联邦通信委员会曾表示，这些短暂、无端的使用“脏话”的行为是无害的。
But in a landmark decision, it declared, back in March, that they were changing the rules.
但早在三月份，它就在一项具有里程碑意义的决定中宣布，他们正在改变规则。
And what's not been talked about much is the reasons that they give for this change.
没有太多讨论的是他们给出的这种改变的原因。
These reasons get to the very heart of what polite society means, here on the radio, or in television.
这些原因触及了广播或电视中礼貌社会的核心含义。
The FCC said, basically, the F-word must be stopped in nearly all instances, because first and foremost, it harms children.
美国联邦通信委员会表示，基本上，几乎在所有情况下都必须停止使用脏话，因为它首先会伤害儿童。
So we wanted to check with an expert to find out if, in fact, there is any scientific evidence that bad words hurt kids.
因此，我们想咨询专家，看看是否确实有任何科学证据表明脏话会伤害孩子。
The Wall Street Journal called me the preeminent scholar of profanity.
《华尔街日报》称我为杰出的脏话学者。
And the Boston Globe called me Dr. Dirty Words.
《波士顿环球报》称我为“脏话博士”。
His other name, the one his mom gave him, is Timothy Jay, a professor of psychology and author of academic books with titles like Cursing in America and Why We Curse.
他的另一个名字是他妈妈给他起的，蒂莫西·杰伊（Timothy Jay），一位心理学教授，也是《美国的诅咒》和《我们为什么诅咒》等学术书籍的作者。
A warning to listeners that in his interview, we mention directly and indirectly a number of curse words.
警告听众，在他的采访中，我们直接或间接提到了一些脏话。
He turns out to be very familiar with the basis of this FCC ruling.
事实证明，他非常熟悉 FCC 裁决的依据。
Our whole obscenity law is predicated on this idea that exposure to obscene material will deprave or corrupt children.
我们的整个淫秽法都是基于这样的观念：接触淫秽材料会使儿童堕落或败坏。
And we've had that in our law since the 1600s.
自 1600 年代以来，我们的法律中就已经规定了这一点。
But there's no evidence that a word, in and of itself, harms someone.
但没有证据表明某个词本身会伤害某人。
So what studies exist?
那么存在哪些研究呢？
What do we know about children and curse words, and what it does to them?
我们对儿童和咒骂语了解多少？它们对他们有什么影响？
I've done a number of studies over the years where we've gone into daycares, and we've collected what kids say to each other, kind of unobtrusively.
多年来，我在日托中心进行了多项研究，我们收集了孩子们互相说的话，有点不引人注意。
I've also had informants go who worked in summer camps, and we just write down everything that happens.
我还请了在夏令营工作的线人，我们只是写下发生的一切。
We carry these little 3x5 cards around and write down the who, what, where, and when.
我们随身携带这些 3x5 的小卡片，写下人物、事件、地点和时间。
And by and large, every normal kid knows how to swear.
总的来说，每个正常的孩子都知道如何说脏话。
As soon as kids learn how to talk-- we've got two-year-olds in our sample saying four-letter words.
一旦孩子们学会了如何说话——我们的样本中就有两岁的孩子会说四个字母的单词。
And a lot of times, they don't know what they're saying.
而且很多时候，他们并不知道自己在说什么。
But they are repeating what their parents and siblings say.
但他们正在重复父母和兄弟姐妹所说的话。
Reading Timothy Jay's studies is the kind of experience that simultaneously makes you feel hopeful and hopeless about the very idea of social science.
阅读蒂莫西·杰伊的研究是一种让你对社会科学的理念同时感到充满希望和绝望的体验。
The daycare and summer camp data are broken down into pages of charts, listing dozens of curse words, and breakdowns of who says what at what age, and what kind of situation they're saying it in.
日托和夏令营的数据被分成几页图表，列出了几十个脏话，并详细说明了谁在什么年龄、什么情况下说了什么。
The single most popular curse word, by a huge margin, no other word is even close, among children age 5 to 12, is the F-word, starting around age 5, followed by the S-word, when they are about 7.
在 5 至 12 岁的儿童中，最流行的脏话是“F”字，从 5 岁左右开始，其次是“S”字，大约在 7 岁的时候使用。
Suck, damn, and Jesus get a lot of play in the summer camp data.
糟糕，该死，耶稣在夏令营数据中得到了很多发挥。
Hell, bitch, bum, and ass do pretty well in the daycare data.
地狱、婊子、流浪汉和屁股在日托数据中表现得相当不错。
I just did a sample of 200 college students and asked them about what their parents did when they swore, and how they learned how to swear, and whether they were punished or not.
我刚刚做了一个200名大学生的抽样调查，问他们说脏话时父母做了什么，他们是如何学会说脏话的，有没有受到惩罚。
And 96%, 97% of these kids grew up swearing.
96%、97%的孩子是在说脏话的过程中长大的。
And most of their parents had rules against swearing, but most of their parents swore anyway in the house.
他们的大多数父母都有禁止说脏话的规定，但他们的大多数父母无论如何都会在家里说脏话。
And so everybody knows how to do this, swearing, and almost all kids do.
所以每个人都知道如何做到这一点，咒骂，几乎所有的孩子都会这样做。
And it goes on day after day with very little consequence, very little harm.
它日复一日地进行，几乎没有什么后果，也没有什么伤害。
Let me just read to you from the recent FCC decision about Bono using the F-word.
让我向您宣读最近 FCC 关于波诺使用脏话的决定。
FCC Commissioner Kathleen Abernathy said about the decision against using the F-word at the Golden Globes, she said "Today we take a strong stand against indecency on our public airwaves, and a significant step in protecting our children." What's your take on that?
FCC 委员凯瑟琳·阿伯内西 (Kathleen Abernathy) 在谈到金球奖上反对使用脏话的决定时表示，“今天我们对公共广播中的不雅行为采取强硬立场，这也是保护我们儿童的重要一步。”你对此有何看法？
Most seven-year-olds already know what that word is.
大多数七岁的孩子已经知道这个词是什么了。
Most four-year-olds have heard it.
大多数四岁的孩子都听过。
I don't know what you're protecting them from.
我不知道你在保护他们免受什么伤害。
And most kids use this kind of language.
大多数孩子都使用这种语言。
I'm not going to lie.
我不会撒谎。
I've said some of them out loud.
我已经大声地说出了其中一些。
I hear it all the time in the hall and stuff.
我在大厅里一直听到这种声音。
And I guess I'm used to it.
我想我已经习惯了。
When one of our producers, Lisa Pollak, went out and talked to kids around Chicago, aged 9 to 12, in their schools, they pretty much confirmed everything that Timothy Jay had seen.
当我们的一位制作人丽莎·波拉克 (Lisa Pollak) 出去与芝加哥各地学校里 9 至 12 岁的孩子们交谈时，他们几乎证实了蒂莫西·杰伊 (Timothy Jay) 所看到的一切。
Bad words are everywhere.
脏话无处不在。
I get mad at my parents sometimes when they say it, because I have two younger siblings.
有时当我父母这么说时，我会生气，因为我有两个弟弟妹妹。
And I think that it's just better if, for little kids, they don't learn it when they're younger.
我认为，对于小孩子来说，如果他们在年轻的时候不学习它，那就更好了。
What age do you think when you say little kids?
当你说小孩子时，你会想到什么年龄？
What age is OK to know those words?
什么年龄可以知道这些词？
I think that around when you get in, maybe, third grade or fourth grade, that's a good age to actually know what the words mean.
我认为，当你进入三年级或四年级时，这是真正了解这些词的含义的好年龄。
Because you're smarter.
因为你更聪明。
Do you think there are any kids today who haven't heard these words?
你认为今天还有孩子没有听过这句话吗？
Probably a newborn baby, like a new newborn baby that's still in your mom's stomach, but well, the babies that can't talk probably know it but just can't talk, I think.
可能是一个刚出生的婴儿，就像还在妈妈肚子里的刚出生的婴儿一样，但是我想，那些不会说话的婴儿可能知道这一点，但只是不会说话。
Now to be clear, these are very simple studies.
现在要明确的是，这些都是非常简单的研究。
They don't follow the kids who use more curse words for years, and then try to find out if their lives turned out differently than the kids who use fewer curse words.
他们不会多年来跟踪那些使用更多咒语的孩子，然后试图找出他们的生活是否与那些使用较少咒语的孩子有所不同。
All the research can show so far is that most kids use these words, even if they think that it's wrong to use them, even if sometimes they aren't totally sure what certain words mean.
到目前为止所有的研究都表明，大多数孩子都会使用这些单词，即使他们认为使用它们是错误的，即使有时他们不完全确定某些单词的含义。
And the research also shows that kids use the words in exactly the same way that adults do, in moments of frustration, or for emphasis, or in moments of surprise, or in jokes, or in anger.
研究还表明，孩子们在沮丧、强调、惊讶、笑话或愤怒时使用这些词的方式与成年人完全相同。
No difference.
没有区别。
Like when I get into a bad mood, because my cousin, he broke something of mine yesterday, and I had got mad.
就像当我心情不好时，因为我表弟昨天弄坏了我的东西，我就生气了。
And I didn't mean to curse and it just slipped out.
我并没有咒骂的意思，结果就脱口而出。
And I said, you F-ing idiot, you broke my D stuff.
我说，你这个白痴，你弄坏了我的 D 东西。
And then I had got in trouble.
然后我就遇到了麻烦。
When you're in an argument with somebody, and they take it too far, and then you just want to say, dude, what the H is your problem?
当你和某人争论时，他们太过分了，然后你只想说，伙计，你到底有什么问题？
Or there's just things you want to say.
或者只是有一些你想说的话。
I think I used the first curse word when I was eight, because someone got me real mad and I was in an argument with my friend.
我想我在八岁时使用了第一个咒语，因为有人让我非常生气，当时我正在和我的朋友争吵。
And then I was like, you F-in' B, why don't you get out of my F-in' face?
然后我就想，你这个混蛋，为什么不从我的脸上滚开呢？
What did it feel like to use those words for the first time?
第一次使用这些词是什么感觉？
Well, sort of, I felt relieved, because she actually listened to me.
嗯，我有点松了口气，因为她真的听了我的话。
She actually got out of my face.
她真的从我面前消失了。
You cuss when you hurt yourself and it really hurts.
当你伤害自己时你会咒骂，这真的很痛。
I'm sure you cuss, don't you?
我确定你会骂人，不是吗？
Do you?
你？
I have been known to cuss.
众所周知，我会骂人。
Boy Because you can.
男孩因为你可以。
You're an adult.
你是一个成年人了。
You have to let yourself free sometimes.
有时你必须让自己自由。
This has great relevance to the law.
这与法律有很大关系。
In the past, the Supreme Court has said that the FCC is right to keep words off radio and television, if hearing the words could, quote, "enlarge the child's vocabulary in an instant." And that's one of the justifications cited by the FCC in the Bono decision.
过去，最高法院曾表示，联邦通信委员会禁止广播和电视上的词语是正确的，如果听到这些词语可以“立即扩大孩子的词汇量”。这就是联邦通信委员会在波诺裁决中引用的理由之一。
Quote, "We believe that even isolated broadcasts of the F-word in situations such as that here could do so as well, in a manner that many, if not most, parents would find highly detrimental and objectionable."
引用：“我们相信，即使是在这种情况下孤立地播放脏话也可能会造成这种情况，而许多（如果不是大多数）家长会发现非常有害和令人反感。”
I'm not even sure that most parents would find it detrimental.
我什至不确定大多数父母会认为这有害。
If you've got 60% of your parents using this kind of language in the home, why would it be more detrimental to hear it on TV than to hear your mom or dad say that kind of stuff?
如果你有 60% 的父母在家里使用这种语言，为什么在电视上听到这种语言比听到你的妈妈或爸爸说这种话更有害呢？
Has anybody studied the actual thing that the FCC is regulating, which is, what is the effect of seeing certain words or seeing certain things referred to on television and radio?
有没有人研究过 FCC 正在监管的实际内容，即在电视和广播中看到某些词语或看到某些内容会产生什么影响？
What is the effect of that on children's development and behavior?
这对儿童的发展和行为有何影响？
The closest we've come to that, there's people who have been studying the effects of kids watching violent television and playing violent video games.
我们最接近这一点的是，有人一直在研究孩子们观看暴力电视和玩暴力视频游戏的影响。
And the closest they get to language is looking at rap music and the lyrics in rap music.
他们最接近语言的是看说唱音乐和说唱音乐中的歌词。
And those studies show it doesn't have harm like watching violence.
这些研究表明，它并不像观看暴力那样造成伤害。
That's been clearly linked, correlated with later incidents of verbal or physical aggression, but words, no.
这与后来的言语或身体攻击事件有明显的联系，但言语，没有。
The Commission in this decision said-- I'm reading from their decision-- "The F-word is one of the most vulgar, graphic, and explicit descriptions of sexual activity in the English language.
委员会在这项决定中说——我正在阅读他们的决定——“F 字是英语中对性活动最粗俗、最形象、最明确的描述之一。
Its use invariably invokes a coarse sexual image." The implication of this is that when Bono says F-ing brilliant, the five commissioners of the FCC actually are picturing penises and vaginas.
它的使用总是会引发粗俗的性形象。”这意味着，当波诺说“他妈的太棒了”时，联邦通信委员会的五位委员实际上正在描绘阴茎和阴道。
"Its use invariably invokes a course sexual image." Is there any evidence that when people say F-ing brilliant, or use the F-word in this kind of way, that anyone else in America is picturing a coarse sexual image?
“它的使用总是会引发一种性感的形象。”有没有证据表明，当人们说“F-ing beautiful”或以这种方式使用“F-ing”这个词时，其他美国人正在描绘一个粗俗的性形象？
Well, no. I have done my Master's thesis and dissertation on how people interpret taboo words.
嗯，不。我已经完成了关于人们如何解释禁忌词的硕士论文和论文。
And usually, we think of them connotatively.
通常，我们会从内涵上思考它们。
So you do think of the emotional overtones of the word.
所以你确实想到了这个词的情感暗示。
You don't think of it in its denotative meaning.
你不会从它的外延意义来思考它。
That's one of the unique things about this word.
这是这个词的独特之处之一。
If you said, the F-ing good convention, people wouldn't think it was a convention where you had intercourse.
如果你说，F-ing good convention，人们就不会认为这是一个你们发生性关系的大会。
They would think it meant it was a really good convention.
他们会认为这意味着这是一次非常好的大会。
F-ing brilliant doesn't bring up what the word denotes.
他妈的辉煌并没有表达出这个词的含义。
It brings up the emotional feeling behind it.
它带来了背后的情感感受。
That's why we use this kind of language, because it's emotional.
这就是我们使用这种语言的原因，因为它是情感性的。
Do you have any sympathy for the idea that there's a general coarsening of the culture that's happened, more graphic stuff on movies and television and on radio, and that that is not an entirely desirable thing?
您是否认同这样一种观点：文化普遍粗化，电影、电视和广播中出现了更多图形化的内容，而这并不是一件完全可取的事情？
I have no sympathy for that whatsoever.
我对此毫无同情心。
I've been asked that question for 30 years.
三十年来我一直被问到这个问题。
It's the same question, aren't we going to hell in a handbasket because somebody said the F-word.
这是同样的问题，难道我们不会因为有人说了脏话而下地狱吗？
But I don't know what people thought the common people talked in Chaucer's time or Shakespeare's time.
但我不知道乔叟时代或莎士比亚时代的老百姓是怎么想的。
I think this language has been around forever.
我认为这种语言一直存在。
On the other hand, I think we're a more civil society.
另一方面，我认为我们是一个更加文明的社会。
We have laws now against harassment at work and discrimination at work, where racial minorities and women were excluded from a lot of places in our culture.
我们现在制定了反对工作中骚扰和工作歧视的法律，在我们的文化中，少数族裔和妇女被排除在许多地方之外。
Wait, you're saying there's more civility now than there was 100, 200 years ago.
等等，你是说现在比 100、200 年前更有礼貌了。
Yeah.
是的。
I don't think swearing is part of some coarsening trend.
我不认为脏话是粗俗趋势的一部分。
If Timothy Jay is right, what it means is that most of our current law and Supreme Court decisions about indecency are based on some very unscientific notions of what bad words and images do to kids.
如果蒂莫西·杰伊是对的，那就意味着我们现行的大多数法律和最高法院关于猥亵行为的判决都是基于一些非常不科学的观念，即不良言语和图像对孩子的影响。
And we wanted to discuss all this with one of the FCC commissioners, or FCC Chairman Michael Powell.
我们想与一位 FCC 委员或 FCC 主席迈克尔·鲍威尔讨论所有这些问题。
The commissioners that we contacted declined our invitations to appear.
我们联系的委员拒绝了我们的出席邀请。
But Chairman Powell's legal adviser, John Cody, said, sure.
但鲍威尔主席的法律顾问约翰·科迪表示，当然可以。
And we started with the studies.
我们从研究开始。
If there's no evidence that even repeated exposure to bad words hurts kids, I asked him, why ban these words?
如果没有证据表明即使反复接触脏话也会伤害孩子，我问他，为什么要禁止这些话？
You know, Ira, I think you're right.
你知道，艾拉，我认为你是对的。
At the end of the day, we haven't, as a Commission, or nor do I think, as a government, seen very many studies that have documented the causal link between indecency and its impact on children.
归根结底，作为一个委员会，或者我认为作为一个政府，我们还没有看到很多研究记录了不雅行为及其对儿童的影响之间的因果关系。
It's kind of hard for the Federal Communications Commission to have to weigh what its actual impact is on children.
联邦通信委员会很难权衡其对儿童的实际影响。
And that's more of Congress's job.
这更多是国会的工作。
For us, we have a law that's been in place for 70 years that we, by statute, are forced to implement.
对我们来说，我们有一项已经实施了 70 年的法律，根据法规，我们必须执行该法律。
And our hands are a little tied in the area, and in all areas in which our job is to enforce the laws that Congress writes.
在这个领域，以及在我们的工作是执行国会制定的法律的所有领域，我们的手有点被束缚。
Let's talk about the Golden Globes decision.
我们来谈谈金球奖的决定。
And I understand that you can only talk about this to a limited extent, because you guys have a kind of appeal that's up in front of the Commission still, right?
我知道你们只能在有限的范围内谈论这个问题，因为你们仍然有一种上诉摆在委员会面前，对吗？
OK, just to review for people what happens in that case.
好的，只是为了让人们回顾一下在这种情况下会发生什么。
Bono gets this award at an awards show.
波诺在颁奖典礼上获得该奖项。
He uses the F-word.
他用了脏话。
And the FCC says, basically, the F-word deserves special treatment and special restrictions in its use.
FCC 表示，基本上，F 字在使用时应该受到特殊对待和特殊限制。
And the reason that it gives in the decision is this.
它在决定中给出的原因是这样的。
"The F-word is one of the most vulgar, graphic, and explicit descriptions of sexual activity in the English language.
“F 字是英语中对性活动最粗俗、最形象、最露骨的描述之一。
Its use invariably invokes a coarse sexual image." It seems like what the commissioners are saying is that when Bono says "F-ing brilliant," they're saying that the problem with this word, and the reason why it deserves special scrutiny under law, is that literally, they're picturing an actual act.
它的使用总是会引发粗俗的性形象。”委员们似乎想说的是，当波诺说“太棒了”时，他们是在说这个词的问题，以及它值得根据法律进行特别审查的原因，从字面上看，他们正在描绘一个真实的行为。
Right.
正确的。
I don't know that it's what they picture.
我不知道这就是他们想象的那样。
I think part of that decision, though, is that the word in and of itself, maybe for the young who think about it, that's what it means.
不过，我认为这个决定的一部分是这个词本身，也许对于思考这个词的年轻人来说，这就是它的意思。
But the rationale is so strange.
但这个理由实在是太奇怪了。
They're saying that the reason why it's important to do it is because the use of this word in any context invokes this coarse sexual image.
他们说这样做之所以重要是因为在任何情况下使用这个词都会引发这种粗俗的性形象。
And if you think about how it's used, for example, Pat Tillman, the football player who was killed in Iraq, his brother at a memorial service, saying, he's F-ing dead.
如果你想想它是如何使用的，例如，在伊拉克阵亡的足球运动员帕特·蒂尔曼（Pat Tillman），他的兄弟在追悼会上说，他死了。
So that clearly does not invoke a coarse sexual image for anyone.
因此，这显然不会给任何人带来粗俗的性形象。
And so the premise of the ruling seems to be questionable.
因此，该裁决的前提似乎值得怀疑。
Well, part of that is, to be frank, as I think NBC argued, and some of the recon petitions argued, and we will have to look at again, when these words are used as intensifiers, as opposed to in a sexual context.
嗯，坦率地说，其中一部分是，正如我认为 NBC 所争论的那样，以及一些侦察请愿书所争论的那样，我们将不得不再次审视这些词何时被用作强化词，而不是在性语境中。
But I think you're right.
但我认为你是对的。
The Commission, at that point, felt, boy, when you use this word, and you're a kid, I don't know that there is such a thing as an intensifier.
委员会当时觉得，孩子，当你使用这个词时，而且你还是个孩子，我不知道有增强器这样的东西。
I think it is the utmost, it is the word at the top of the list.
我认为这是最重要的，它是列表顶部的词。
And that is kind of the basis of the decision.
这就是决定的基础。
Again, and that will be the subject of the recon.
再说一次，这将是侦察的主题。
The recon, that is the petition for reconsideration.
侦察，即申请复议。
As you point out here that the FCC's own staff initially ruled that when Bono said "F-ing brilliant," it did not have any sexual connotation, and for that reason, it was not indecent.
正如你在这里指出的，联邦通信委员会自己的工作人员最初裁定，当波诺说“F-ing beautiful”时，它没有任何性暗示，因此，它并不不雅。
And it was the commissioners, the guys at the top, who went back and reopened the case, at the urging of a lobbying group, declared that "F-ing brilliant" means sex.
在游说团体的敦促下，委员们、高层人士回去重新审理此案，并宣称“他妈的太棒了”意味着性。
We did ask the 9 to 12 year olds we interviewed around Chicago what Bono might mean by the phrase "F-ing brilliant." None of them saw it the way the commissioners did.
我们确实询问了在芝加哥采访的 9 到 12 岁的孩子，波诺所说的“F-ing 太棒了”这句话的意思是什么。他们中没有一个人像委员们那样看待这一点。
Well, I think he meant that it was a really great award that he got.
嗯，我认为他的意思是他获得的这个奖项真的很棒。
Yeah, I think he was just really happy and wanted to express his feelings.
是的，我认为他真的很高兴并且想要表达他的感受。
It's a word that you use when you're either very something.
当你很了不起时，你就会使用这个词。
If you're very happy, I guess you'd use that.
如果你很高兴，我想你会用它。
If you're very sad, or very angry at someone, you'd use that.
如果你非常悲伤，或者对某人非常生气，你就会使用它。
He was very proud of his award.
他对自己的获奖感到非常自豪。
And he was exaggerating brilliant by just using F-ing.
他只是用“F-ing”就夸大了自己的才华。
Recent decisions by the FCC are about more than just the F-word.
FCC 最近的决定不仅仅涉及 F 字。
In the Bono decision, the FCC explicitly puts broadcasters on notice that it is changing the legal definition of profanity.
在波诺案的裁决中，联邦通信委员会明确提醒广播公司，它正在改变亵渎的法律定义。
In the past, the Commission gave some weight to the idea of context.
过去，委员会对背景的概念给予了一定的重视。
The F-word and other potentially offensive material could sometimes be allowed on the air, if it was in a context that had some redeeming value, if it was in a news report, for instance.
脏话和其他潜在的冒犯性内容有时可以被允许播出，如果它是在具有某种救赎价值的上下文中，例如在新闻报道中。
But with these recent decisions, the FCC has moved the line on where context counts.
但通过最近的这些决定，联邦通信委员会已经改变了背景的界限。
Now they're saying the rule is, if a word is deeply offensive to some members of the public, or the Commission thinks that hearing the word might enlarge a child's vocabulary, that could be enough to overrule context.
现在他们说规则是，如果一个词对某些公众来说非常冒犯，或者委员会认为听到这个词可能会扩大孩子的词汇量，那么这可能足以推翻上下文。
So the line has moved, though exactly where it has moved to is not totally clear yet.
所以这条线已经移动了，尽管它移动到的具体位置尚不完全清楚。
For instance, the Bono decision declared that now even euphemisms for the F-word, which presumably include the phrase "the F-word," are probably illegal most of the time.
例如，波诺案的判决宣称，现在即使是 F 字的委婉说法（可能包括短语“the F 字”）在大多数情况下也可能是非法的。
In our interview, John Cody of the FCC made a point of saying that context does still count lots of times.
在我们的采访中，美国联邦通信委员会的约翰·科迪 (John Cody) 特意指出，背景在很多时候仍然很重要。
He pointed to page five of the Bono decision, where the commissioners specifically say that if there is quote, "political, scientific, or independent value," the stuff you're broadcasting might be OK.
他指出了波诺决定的第五页，其中委员们特别指出，如果引用“政治、科学或独立价值”，那么你正在广播的内容可能没问题。
There is still wiggle room now.
现在还有回旋余地。
For instance, we did not overrule the Branson case, which is an old, I believe, NPR case with the Gotti tapes, in which he uses the F-word over and over, and--
例如，我们没有否决布兰森案，我相信这是一个古老的 NPR 案，有 Gotti 录音带，他在案中一遍又一遍地使用脏话，而且——
Yeah, let's just explain what that is.
是的，让我们解释一下那是什么。
That's a case where NPR had a wiretap of John Gotti, and used it in a news report-- this is back in the '80s-- and didn't beep out the F-word.
在这个案例中，NPR 窃听了 John Gotti，并在新闻报道中使用了它——这已经是 80 年代的事了——而且没有发出脏话。
And someone complained to the FCC.
有人向 FCC 投诉。
And the FCC said, no, no, no, it's OK in this context, because there's a clear news value to this.
FCC 说，不，不，不，在这种情况下没关系，因为这有明显的新闻价值。
And you're saying that this decision did not overturn that?
你是说这个决定并没有推翻那个？
That's right.
这是正确的。
That's still good law, in fact.
事实上，这仍然是一条很好的法律。
And I think what the decision really stands for, at the end of the day, is gratuitous uses that don't have a newsworthy reasoning behind them are more in the indecent camp than not.
我认为，归根结底，这一决定真正代表的是无端用途，其背后没有具有新闻价值的推理，更多的是属于不雅阵营。
One of the things that's happening is that I think a lot of broadcasters are having to guess what's going to be OK under the law since the Bono ruling.
正在发生的事情之一是，我认为自波诺裁决以来，许多广播公司不得不猜测根据法律什么是可以接受的。
Recently, another public radio show, Fresh Air, faced this decision where there's a singer named Nellie McKay who uses the word "suck" in a song, and not in a sexual connotation, more in a connotation like, that sucked, sort of thing.
最近，另一个公共广播节目《Fresh Air》面临着这样的决定，一位名叫 Nellie McKay 的歌手在一首歌中使用了“suck”这个词，而且不是指性暗示，更多的是指“太糟糕了”之类的含义。
S-U-C-K.
S-U-C-K。
Ira Glass Yeah.
艾拉·格拉斯 是的。
And the producer of Fresh Air went to the lawyers for, you know, and they basically said, are we OK?
《新鲜空气》的制片人去找律师，你知道，他们基本上说，我们还好吗？
And they said, absolutely not.
他们说，绝对不是。
That's just too risky.
那样太冒险了。
Yeah.
是的。
My personal opinion is, I think that's a little bit of an overreaction on the broadcaster's side, while understandable.
我个人的观点是，我认为广播公司方面反应有点过度，但可以理解。
Again, they take these things very seriously.
再说一次，他们非常认真地对待这些事情。
And they have to first and foremost think about their audience and their licenses.
他们必须首先考虑他们的受众和他们的许可证。
And they don't want to put them at risk.
他们不想让他们面临风险。
And I understand that.
我明白这一点。
You know, I hear this a lot from the broadcast community, which is, just tell us what the rules are.
你知道，我从广播界经常听到这样的话，那就是，告诉我们规则是什么。
Show us, give us bright line rules.
向我们展示，给我们明确的规则。
But I don't know that you want the government to write a Red Book on what you can say and not say.
但我不知道你希望政府写一本红皮书，规定什么可以说，什么不能说。
I just think that that gets into a very dangerous situation.
我只是认为这会陷入非常危险的境地。
But on the other hand, not issuing a Red Book and saying-- it also does a kind of damage, because people are forced to guess and tend to-- they'll overreach, as in this case.
但另一方面，不发布红皮书并说——这也会造成某种损害，因为人们被迫猜测并倾向于——他们会做得过度，就像在本例中一样。
Well, that might be right.
嗯，这可能是对的。
And like you said, it's overreaching.
正如你所说，这太过分了。
I think with time, what is likely to happen is you're going to see the Commission do the opposite, which is it's going to deny some of these cases and give broadcasters more and more precedent by which to go by over time.
我认为随着时间的推移，可能会发生的情况是，你会看到委员会做相反的事情，即它将否认其中一些案件，并随着时间的推移为广播公司提供越来越多的先例。
When the decision says political, scientific, or independent value, could independent value also be literary value?
当决定提到政治、科学或独立价值时，独立价值是否也可以是文学价值？
Of course, of course.
当然，当然。
Ira Glass That's funny, because there's a David Sedaris story that we ran on our show years ago, that takes place in a bathroom, that violates all three of the FCC criteria for indecency.
Ira Glass：这很有趣，因为几年前我们在节目中播放过 David Sedaris 的故事，故事发生在浴室里，违反了 FCC 的全部三项不雅标准。
It's explicitly graphic in talking about excretory activities, which is one of the criteria.
在谈论排泄活动时，这是明确的图形，这是标准之一。
He repeats and dwells on the descriptions at length, because he's trying to be funny.
他重复并详细阐述了这些描述，因为他想变得有趣。
And he absolutely means to pander and shock.
他绝对是想迎合和震惊。
That's the joke of it, in a way.
在某种程度上，这就是它的笑话。
So it violates all three standards.
所以它违反了所有三个标准。
And my understanding was that today, we really could get in trouble for that, because context might not protect us.
我的理解是，今天我们真的可能会因此陷入麻烦，因为环境可能无法保护我们。
Well, again, I think we would look at the context.
好吧，我想我们还是要看看背景。
But I think you might have given away the-- again, I'm not familiar with it-- but you might have given away the context, in that he's trying to be funny, as opposed to be-- is he talking about Irritable Bowel Syndrome in a health-conscious way, or is he just trying to crack jokes?
但我认为你可能已经泄露了——再说一次，我对此并不熟悉——但你可能已经泄露了背景，因为他是想搞笑，而不是——他是在以健康意识的方式谈论肠易激综合症，还是只是想开玩笑？
I think that's the distinction, that--
我认为这就是区别，那就是——
Can I play this for you?
我可以给你玩这个吗？
It's only two minutes long.
它只有两分钟长。
And if at the end of it, you feel like, oh, you can't actually--
如果最后你感觉，哦，你实际上不能——
Yeah, I'm not going to be able to.
是的，我做不到。
But again, I'l let you play it.
但我还是要让你玩一下。
All right.
好的。
Let me play it and then see if you have anything you can say about it.
让我玩一下，然后看看你是否有什么可以说的。
Here we go.
开始了。
We had Easter dinner at John's house, a big afternoon meal which we ate in his backyard.
我们在约翰家吃了复活节晚餐，在他的后院吃了一顿丰盛的下午饭。
Everyone had taken their places at the table when I excused myself to visit the bathroom.
当我借口去洗手间时，每个人都在餐桌旁就座。
And there, in the toilet, was the absolute biggest turd I have ever seen in my life.
厕所里有我一生中见过的最大的粪便。
No toilet paper or anything, just this thick and coiled specimen.
没有卫生纸或任何东西，只有这个厚厚的卷曲标本。
I flushed the toilet, and the big turd [?
我冲了马桶，还有大便[？
rousted ?] around.
唤醒？]周围。
It budged and bobbed a little, but that was it.
它稍微移动了一下，但仅此而已。
This thing wasn't going anywhere.
这件事哪儿也去不了。
Just then, someone knocked on the door, and I started to panic.
就在这时，有人敲门，我开始慌了。
Just a minute!
请稍等！
At an early age, my mother sat me down and explained that everyone has bowel movements.
很小的时候，妈妈就让我坐下来，告诉我每个人都会排便。
"Everyone," she said, "even the President and his wife.
“每个人，”她说，“甚至总统和他的妻子。
Everyone in the world.
世界上的每个人。
Everyone but me." And I could picture them all, everyone from Red Skelton to Ladybird Johnson.
除了我之外的所有人。”我可以想象他们所有人，从红骷髅到瓢虫约翰逊。
But something this big-- just a minute!
但这么大的事情——等一下！
And I seriously considered lifting this turd out of the toilet and tossing it out the window.
我认真考虑过把这个粪便从厕所里拿出来扔到窗外。
I honestly considered it.
我诚实地考虑过。
But John lives on the ground floor, and a dozen people were seated at a picnic table 10 feet away.
但约翰住在一楼，十几个人坐在 10 英尺外的野餐桌旁。
And these were people who would surely investigate and gather 'round.
这些人肯定会调查并聚集在一起。
And there I'd be, trying to explain that it wasn't mine.
我会在那里试图解释这不是我的。
But why would I bother throwing it out the window if it wasn't mine?
但如果它不是我的，我为什么要把它扔出窗外呢？
No one would have believed me.
没有人会相信我。
Just a minute!
请稍等！
And I scrambled for the plunger and used it to break the turd into manageable pieces.
我抓起柱塞，用它把粪便打碎成易于处理的碎片。
And even then, I had to flush twice just to get rid of it.
即便如此，我也不得不冲两次才能摆脱它。
It was Janet at the door, and she said, well, it's about time.
珍妮特站在门口，她说，好吧，时间到了。
And I was left thinking that the person who left the huge turd had no problem with it, so why did I?
我当时就想，留下大便的人对此没有任何问题，那我为什么要这么做呢？
And later, at the table, I examined each guest, trying to figure who was capable.
后来，在餐桌上，我检查了每位客人，试图找出谁有能力。
Anyway.
反正。
John Cody It's hard to say.
约翰·科迪 这很难说。
But it goes back to that it's an area in which there is a lot of gray.
但归根结底，这是一个有很多灰色地带的区域。
See, but I would argue this one on just straight-up literary merit.
瞧，但我会根据直接的文学价值来争论这个问题。
If you think about the mission of literature, it's to describe situations that we all can relate to and have had some feeling of ourselves, or can imagine having a feeling of.
如果你思考一下文学的使命，那就是描述我们所有人都可以联想到的、对自己有某种感觉的情况，或者可以想象有一种感觉。
And that seems to be what he's doing.
这似乎就是他正在做的事情。
I don't disagree with you.
我不同意你的观点。
And we would take that segment that you had just produced.
我们将采用您刚刚制作的那个片段。
And the reason you add it is for, in part, news value, right?
您添加它的部分原因是为了新闻价值，对吗？
You're conducting an interview with a public official, and you're trying to explain to your audience the state of indecency law.
您正在采访一名公职人员，并试图向观众解释不雅法的现状。
Again, that would be factors we would have to take into consideration.
同样，这将是我们必须考虑的因素。
Those are the types of things that I think the Commission has, and will continue to take, in consideration when we talk about context.
我认为，当我们谈论背景时，委员会已经并将继续考虑这些类型的事情。
We're outside of the isolated word, gratuitous use of the F-word here.
我们已经脱离了孤立的词，这里无缘无故地使用了“脏话”。
We're in that gray area, and I would say in an area of the gray that traditionally has been more on the not indecent side than indecent before.
我们正处于那个灰色地带，我想说的是，在一个传统上不雅的灰色区域比以前的不雅多。
But also thinking about what the Supreme Court says, the Supreme Court says, well, another problem is teaching a kid a word.
但也要想想最高法院的说法，最高法院说，嗯，另一个问题是教孩子一个单词。
If we teach a kid a word, then that's a problem.
如果我们教一个孩子一个单词，那就是一个问题。
But in this, I don't think any kid would be learning any words from this.
但在这方面，我认为任何孩子都不会从中学到任何单词。
And in fact, I have to say this is a little monologue that a seven-year-old would love.
事实上，我不得不说这是一个七岁孩子会喜欢的小独白。
There's no question.
毫无疑问。
Again, you're right to be questioning.
再说一遍，你的质疑是对的。
At the end of the day, what I think you're really questioning is the foundations of these rules, and do they make sense for that medium?
归根结底，我认为您真正质疑的是这些规则的基础，以及它们对于该媒介有意义吗？
And I think that's the right question.
我认为这是正确的问题。
And my personal perspective is, I stand not just beside you, but behind you on that one, and in front of you.
我个人的观点是，我不仅站在你身边，而且站在你的身后，站在你的前面。
Well, so in a way, the best thing that can happen for the status of the law, and I sort of hate to say this, is that people would write in right now at your website, would go to www.fcc.gov and basically complain against me on this Sedaris thing.
嗯，所以在某种程度上，对于法律地位来说，可能发生的最好的事情，我有点讨厌这样说，是人们现在会在你的网站上写信，会去 www.fcc.gov 基本上就 Sedaris 的事情抱怨我。
And that's the only way we would get a ruling that would define the law.
这是我们获得定义法律的裁决的唯一方法。
Certainly on that particular incident, I think that's right.
当然，就那个特定事件而言，我认为这是正确的。
If the Commission were to come out and say, no, that wasn't indecent, then that would go in the ledger of those cases of, OK, well, this is seemingly OK.
如果委员会出面说，不，这并不不雅，那么这将被记录在这些案件的分类帐中，好吧，好吧，这看起来没问题。
Are these things more like this case, or are they more like the Bono case?
这些事情是更像本案，还是更像波诺案？
It seems the most likely outcome if listeners complained about this story is that the FCC would not rule at all.
如果听众抱怨这个故事，最可能的结果似乎是联邦通信委员会根本不会做出裁决。
The current commissioners are much more exercised about sex than about bathroom humor.
现任委员们对性的关注远多于浴室幽默。
And the fact is, we did play the Sedaris story as part of a policy discussion, which makes the whole thing much more of an open-and-shut case for the FCC.
事实上，我们确实将 Sedaris 的故事作为政策讨论的一部分，这使得整个事情对于 FCC 来说更像是一个公开的案例。
It would fall into a more questionable area, and set more groundbreaking precedent, if we just played it on its own, no policy angle at all.
如果我们只是单独发挥作用，完全不考虑政策角度，那么它将落入一个更值得怀疑的领域，并开创更具开创性的先例。
There's no telling how that would come out.
没有人知道结果会如何。
So.
所以。
There is a bigger question in all this.
这一切还有一个更大的问题。
And it's a question that, weirdly, Timothy Jay's cursing research is no help at all with.
奇怪的是，蒂莫西·杰伊的咒骂研究对这个问题毫无帮助。
The question is this.
问题是这样的。
Let's say that you agree with Timothy Jay's findings that show that cursing does not hurt kids.
假设您同意蒂莫西·杰伊的研究结果，即咒骂不会伤害孩子。
Well, then what do you do?
好吧，那你怎么办？
I think most of us still would not feel very good cursing around children.
我想我们大多数人在孩子面前咒骂仍然会感觉不太舒服。
Even Timothy Jay tries not to curse around kids, or his students, or strangers, for that matter, even though he's sure that it harms no one.
就连蒂莫西·杰伊也尽量不咒骂孩子、他的学生或陌生人，尽管他确信这不会伤害任何人。
In the same way, I think most of us wouldn't want wall-to-wall unregulated profanity all over radio and television, day and night.
同样，我认为我们大多数人都不希望广播和电视上不分昼夜地出现不受管制的脏话。
The kids we talked to were unanimous, by the way, on this point.
顺便说一下，我们采访的孩子们在这一点上意见一致。
They did not want more cursing on radio and television.
他们不想在广播和电视上听到更多的咒骂。
It gave them an odd feeling, the swearing.
这给了他们一种奇怪的感觉，那就是咒骂。
Listen to how a group of seven of them reacts when one of the kids, in front of an adult and a microphone, simply refers to a swear word that her mom said.
听听当其中一个孩子在成人和麦克风面前简单地提到她妈妈说的脏话时，七人一组的反应。
She doesn't even swear.
她甚至不发誓。
She runs a day care.
她经营一家日托中心。
And then she had said go upstairs before I bust your S-H.
然后她说在我破坏你的S-H之前上楼去。
Seven kids look at each other, hands over mouths, eyes wide open, in disbelief, embarrassment, giddiness.
七个孩子面面相觑，双手捂住嘴，睁大眼睛，难以置信、尴尬、头晕。
[LAUGHTER] Ira Glass When these 9 to 12 year olds talked about how they thought that swearing was bad, it was not in a way where it seemed like they were parroting things adults told them.
[笑声] Ira Glass 当这些 9 到 12 岁的孩子谈论他们认为说脏话是不好的事情时，他们并不是在鹦鹉学舌地重复大人告诉他们的事情。
Well, I just don't see what the horrible deal is with swearing.
好吧，我只是不明白说脏话有什么可怕的。
But in my opinion, I wouldn't want my grandparents to hear swear words.
但在我看来，我不希望我的祖父母听到脏话。
If we were in a car, and the radio, I wouldn't mind it.
如果我们在车里，还有收音机，我不会介意。
But I wouldn't want my grandpa, my grandma to hear the lyrics and the music that I like to listen to.
但我不想让我的爷爷、奶奶听到我喜欢听的歌词和音乐。
Because it's inappropriate.
因为这是不合适的。
It might upset them.
这可能会让他们感到不安。
It might, you know, why does he know these words?
也许，你知道，他为什么会知道这些话？
Why are we listening to this music?
我们为什么要听这样的音乐？
So it kind of comes down to being polite?
那么这可以归结为礼貌吗？
Yeah, because some people are really offended.
是的，因为有些人确实被冒犯了。
There's a lot of people out there who take that really, really, really strongly.
有很多人非常非常非常强烈地接受这一点。
A more sensible FCC policy might start right here.
更明智的 FCC 政策可能会从这里开始。
Instead of getting all hysterical about the harm that bad words are supposedly doing to innocent young psyches, we could all just agree as a country that some channels on radio and television should be as curse-free as possible.
与其对脏话对无辜的年轻心灵造成的伤害感到歇斯底里，不如作为一个国家，我们所有人都同意广播和电视上的某些频道应该尽可能不咒骂。
Not because it's healthier for anyone, not because we want to avoid teaching these words to minors who apparently already know them already, but because it just feels like good manners, because it's polite.
不是因为这对任何人都更健康，不是因为我们想避免向显然已经知道这些单词的未成年人教授这些单词，而是因为这感觉像是良好的举止，因为它很有礼貌。
[MUSIC - "STUCK IN A MOMENT YOU CAN'T GET OUT OF" BY U2]
[音乐 - U2 的“陷入无法摆脱的时刻”]
Coming up, if Ronald Reagan and Mikhail Gorbachev could be polite to each other, send each other handwritten notes, joke around, why can't Democrats and Republicans in New Jersey do it?
接下来，如果罗纳德·里根和米哈伊尔·戈尔巴乔夫能够互相礼貌、互相发送手写便条、开玩笑，为什么新泽西州的民主党人和共和党人不能这样做呢？
Or men and women, well, lots of places?
或者男人和女人，嗯，很多地方？
[MUSIC - "STUCK IN A MOMENT YOU CAN'T GET OUT OF" BY U2]
[音乐 - U2 的“陷入无法摆脱的时刻”]
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week in our program, of course, we choose some theme, bring you a variety of different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，我们每周的节目都会选择一些主题，为您带来关于该主题的各种不同类型的故事。
Today's program, propriety, stories of people trying to keep a sense of decency and decorum in new and difficult situations.
今天的节目，礼仪，以及人们在新的困难情况下试图保持正派和礼仪感的故事。
We've arrived at Act Two of our program.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act Two: Dems Gone Wild.
第二幕：民主党疯狂。
Ken Kurson had been around politics, but he had never actually run for office.
肯·库森（Ken Kurson）一直涉足政坛，但他从未真正竞选过公职。
He works with Rudolph Giuliani, co-authored Giuliani's book, Leadership, with him.
他与鲁道夫朱利安尼一起工作，并与他合着了朱利安尼的书《领导力》。
And last year, Ken Kurson entered the political mosh pit himself.
去年，肯·库森 (Ken Kurson) 本人也进入了政治狂欢的深渊。
He ran for state assembly as a Republican in New Jersey's 34th district.
他作为共和党人竞选新泽西州第 34 选区的州议会议员。
Democrats dominate Jersey politics in a way that seems almost quaint to most of us who live in other states.
民主党主宰泽西岛政治的方式对于我们大多数生活在其他州的人来说似乎很奇怪。
Democrats control both houses of the state assembly, and the governor's mansion.
民主党控制着州议会两院和州长官邸。
And there hasn't been a Republican senator from New Jersey in over 30 years.
新泽西州已经有 30 多年没有出现过共和党参议员了。
Ken Kurson's district is overwhelmingly Democratic.
肯·库森所在的选区绝大多数是民主党人。
It includes the town of East Orange, where Al Gore beat George Bush by a 40 to 1 margin.
其中包括东奥兰治镇，阿尔·戈尔在那里以 40 比 1 的优势击败了乔治·布什。
I knew this race would be just about impossible.
我知道这场比赛几乎是不可能的。
Not only have I been personally unpopular my entire life, but the registration advantage alone was insurmountable.
不仅我个人一生不受欢迎，而且仅凭注册优势就无法克服。
When Rudy Giuliani wrote a check for the campaign, he asked me, who should I make this out to, sacrificial lamb?
当鲁迪朱利安尼为竞选写一张支票时，他问我，我应该把这张支票交给谁，牺牲品羔羊？
So I wasn't getting into the race with any delusions about winning.
所以我参加比赛时并没有抱有任何获胜的幻想。
But I did welcome the opportunity to shine a light on what I thought were some overlooked issues in New Jersey: property taxes, illegal campaign contributions, and public officials who hold multiple public jobs.
但我确实很高兴有机会揭露新泽西州一些我认为被忽视的问题：财产税、非法竞选捐款以及担任多项公职的公职人员。
Going in, I realized that if I managed to make it a race, my opponents would do whatever they could to make things difficult.
进去后，我意识到，如果我设法让比赛成为一场比赛，我的对手就会想尽一切办法让事情变得困难。
I expected disagreement, apathy, maybe even anger.
我预计会出现分歧、冷漠，甚至愤怒。
But what I hadn't realized was how darn uncivil my town could get.
但我没有意识到我的小镇会变得多么不文明。
The vitriol and nastiness that would come from my own neighbors caught me off guard.
来自邻居的刻薄和肮脏让我措手不及。
In my own hometown, Montclair, plenty of residents are so sure of the correctness of their opinions, so convinced that their little voices in the wilderness are the only thing protecting this great democracy from the Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld-Aschroft-Wolfowitz-Scalia cabal, so righteous in their indignation over the fact that a town son would dare call himself a Republican, that the gloves are way off.
在我自己的家乡蒙特克莱尔，很多居民都非常确信自己观点的正确性，非常确信他们在荒野中发出的微弱声音是保护这个伟大民主国家免受布什-切尼-拉姆斯菲尔德-阿施罗夫特-沃尔福维茨-斯卡利亚阴谋集团侵害的唯一力量，他们对一个城镇儿子竟然敢称自己是共和党人的愤慨是如此正义，以至于手套还很遥远。
In late August, I campaigned at the train station a block from my house.
八月底，我在离我家一个街区的火车站进行竞选活动。
Now if you ever want to feel like a douchebag, I recommend concluding eight years of anonymously riding the train by suddenly interrupting your neighbors to talk New Jersey politics.
现在，如果你想感觉自己像个混蛋，我建议你突然打断你的邻居谈论新泽西州的政治，以结束八年的匿名乘坐火车。
By that point, I'd done this kind of retail campaigning hundreds of times in all five towns of the district, from the scariest all-night chicken joint in East Orange to the toniest country club in Glen Ridge.
到那时，我已经在该地区的所有五个城镇进行了数百次此类零售活动，从东奥兰治最可怕的通宵炸鸡店到格伦里奇最奢华的乡村俱乐部。
I'm not someone who finds it easy to introduce myself to strangers.
我不是一个容易向陌生人介绍自己的人。
Yeah, I know, a liability for a political candidate.
是的，我知道，这是政治候选人的责任。
Luckily, everybody was polite and even interested in talking over some issue or other.
幸运的是，每个人都很有礼貌，甚至有兴趣讨论一些问题。
Plenty of people asked tough questions or challenged my positions.
很多人问了尖锐的问题或挑战我的立场。
Most voters in my district are Democrats, after all.
毕竟，我选区的大多数选民都是民主党人。
But I never, not even once, encountered anything uncivil.
但我从来没有遇到过任何不文明的事情，一次也没有。
Even those who clearly had no intention of voting for me were courteous.
即使那些明显无意投票给我的人也很有礼貌。
And I was genuinely grateful when someone would say, no thank you, and save me the time and money of handing them a piece of literature or a Kurson for Assembly pen.
当有人说“不，谢谢”时，我真的很感激，这样我就可以省下时间和金钱，给他们一份文学作品或一支库森组装笔。
But that day in August at the train station, one woman saw me standing there and started yelling at me.
但八月的那天，在火车站，一位女士看到我站在那里，开始对我大喊大叫。
I mean top of her lungs, pop out crazy eyes.
我的意思是她的肺顶上，伸出疯狂的眼睛。
"Republicans are evil!
“共产党是邪恶的！
You ought to be ashamed of yourself!" Stunned, I managed to stammer, "Why are you speaking to me like this?" She pointed to the embarrassing little name tag that all candidates wear and said, "You wearing that badge gives me the right to yell at you.
你应该为自己感到羞耻！”我愣住了，结结巴巴地说：“你为什么这样跟我说话？”她指着所有候选人都佩戴的令人尴尬的小名牌说：“你戴着这个徽章让我有权对你大喊大叫。
You're killing innocent Iraqis!" Um, I guess you won't be needing a pen.
你正在杀害无辜的伊拉克人！”嗯，我猜你不需要笔。
I wish I could report that this was an isolated incident.
我希望我能报告这是一起孤立事件。
But it wasn't.
但事实并非如此。
The next time was at the Bluestone Cafe, a home away from home where I'd have breakfast several times a week.
下一次是在 Bluestone 咖啡馆，这是一个我每周都会吃几次早餐的家外之家。
In the middle of September, the Sunday New York Times ran a long profile of my candidacy, headlined "One Montclair Republican Looks Strong." The piece was a total Valentine.
九月中旬，《纽约时报》周日刊登了一篇关于我的候选资格的长篇报道，标题是“一位蒙特克莱尔共和党人看起来很强大”。这件作品完全就是情人节。
The photo even managed to obscure my bald spot.
这张照片甚至掩盖了我的秃头。
It was a home run for the campaign and the day after it ran, my team met at the Bluestone to savor it.
这是竞选活动的一次全垒打，比赛结束后的第二天，我的团队在青石酒店聚会，品味它。
A bunch of the regulars congratulated me on the coverage.
一群常客祝贺我的报道。
And then a woman sauntered up to our table and said, "Are you the one who's running for office?" "Why, yes, ma'am, I'm Ken Kurson.
然后一位女士走到我们桌前问道：“你是竞选公职的人吗？” “嗯，是的，女士，我是肯·库森。
And I'd like to earn your support on November--" "I would never vote for you.
我想在十一月赢得你们的支持——” “我永远不会投票给你。
And I can't believe there are Republicans in my town." She pronounced the word "Republican" the way one describes symptoms of Irritable Bowel Syndrome.
我不敢相信我的镇上有共和党人。”她以描述肠易激综合症症状的方式发音“共和党”一词。
All of these attacks on me were one thing.
所有这些对我的攻击都是一回事。
But when people started to question my wife, it became downright bizarre.
但当人们开始质疑我的妻子时，事情就变得非常奇怪了。
One time, the woman who heads the Democratic Party in Montclair called our home and yelled-- yelled-- at my wife.
有一次，蒙特克莱尔民主党主席的一位女士打电话给我们家，对我的妻子大喊大叫。
"Your husband is a liar.
“你的丈夫是个骗子。
He's trying to trick everyone by not saying he's a Republican.
他不说自己是共和党人，试图欺骗所有人。
Are you so ashamed of it that you can't even admit it on your mailings?
您是否为此感到羞耻，甚至无法在邮件中承认这一点？
We're disgusted with your lies." Click.
我们对你的谎言感到厌恶。”点击。
This tirade was prompted by one of my mailers that reprinted the Times article in full on one side, an article headlined "Montclair Republican," and on the other side featured a picture of my family with Rudy Giuliani.
这篇长篇大论是由我的一封邮件引发的，该邮件的一面完整转载了《泰晤士报》的文章，一篇标题为“蒙特克莱尔共和党”的文章，另一面则刊登了一张我和鲁迪·朱利安尼的家人的照片。
I'm not sure how I could have proclaimed my affiliation more overtly.
我不知道如何才能更公开地宣布我的隶属关系。
But to be honest, I can't tell you how punk rock it felt to set off these little tizzies of outrage: the guy who took my little handbill at the train station and theatrically shredded it in a silent, heroic gesture of defiance, the woman who told my campaign aide that she cannot accept that a Jewish candidate would ever belong to the same party as a Nazi like George Bush.
但说实话，我无法告诉你朋克摇滚引发这些小小愤怒的感觉有多大：那个在火车站拿走我的小传单并以一种无声的、英勇的反抗姿态戏剧化地撕碎它的家伙，那个告诉我的竞选助手她不能接受犹太候选人与像乔治·布什这样的纳粹分子属于同一政党的女人。
Montclair prides itself on its reputation as a bastion of liberalism and tolerance.
蒙特克莱尔以其自由主义和宽容堡垒的声誉而自豪。
Montclair voluntarily funds its own busing program.
蒙特克莱尔自愿资助自己的公交计划。
And Chris Rock joked that a newspaper called Montclair the nation's best place for mixed race couples.
克里斯·洛克开玩笑说，一家报纸称蒙特克莱尔是全国最适合混血情侣的地方。
The worst place was everywhere else.
最糟糕的地方是其他地方。
So what kills me about this particular form of nastiness I encountered in Montclair, and only in Montclair, and only from white liberals, is that it came from people who would be mortified to hear themselves described as intolerant or hostile to those unlike themselves.
因此，我在蒙特克莱尔遇到的这种特殊形式的肮脏行为，而且只在蒙特克莱尔，而且只来自白人自由主义者，令我感到震惊的是，这些人如果听到自己被描述为对与自己不同的人不宽容或敌对，他们会感到羞愧。
In my campaigning in blue collar Clifton and minority East Orange, I experienced many polite no-thank-yous and plenty of passionate disagreements, which tended not to be about Iraq or President Bush, but over the actual stuff New Jersey assemblymen deal with, like tax rates and the state's notorious Department of Youth and Family Services.
在蓝领克利夫顿和少数族裔东奥兰治的竞选活动中，我经历了许多礼貌的“不致谢”和大量激烈的分歧，这些分歧往往不是关于伊拉克或布什总统，而是关于新泽西州议员处理的实际问题，比如税率和该州臭名昭著的青年和家庭服务部。
But not once, not a single time, did anyone stray close to the line dividing discourse from abuse.
但没有一次、一次没有人偏离过言论与辱骂的界限。
My campaign even made inroads into Montclair's minority community, especially after I was endorsed by the leader of the town's enormous Christ Church and was the only candidate to address its largely black congregation.
我的竞选活动甚至进入了蒙特克莱尔的少数族裔社区，特别是在我得到了该镇庞大的基督教堂领导人的支持，并且是唯一向以黑人为主的会众发表演讲的候选人之后。
But when it came to white liberals, how about the aging hippie who lectured one of my campaign's black volunteers on the obligation minorities have to support progressive candidates?
但说到白人自由主义者，那位向我竞选活动的一位黑人志愿者讲授少数族裔必须支持进步候选人的义务的年迈嬉皮士又如何呢？
When I asked an artist friend, someone I'd been very close to for 10 years, to design a t-shirt for me and my crew to wear in Montclair's 10k race, she refused.
当我请一位艺术家朋友（我已经交往了 10 年）为我和我的团队设计一件 T 恤供我和我的团队在蒙特克莱尔的 10 公里比赛中穿着时，她拒绝了。
She explained that a cartoon elephant was a powerful symbol she could not abide.
她解释说，卡通大象是一个强大的象征，她无法忍受。
We're not friends anymore.
我们不再是朋友了。
I didn't win.
我没有赢。
I did far better than I was supposed to.
我做得比我应该做的要好得多。
And almost 2,000 voters crossed party lines to cast a ballot for me.
近 2,000 名选民跨越党派界限为我投票。
But in the end, the district's two seats both went to the Democrats, as everyone knew they would.
但最终，该选区的两个席位均落入民主党手中，正如所有人都知道的那样。
The incumbent, a man so dedicated to public service, he also holds three other jobs on the public payroll, and a woman whose chief attribute seems to be that she only has one other public job.
现任者是一位致力于公共服务的男性，他还在公共工资单上担任其他三项工作，而一位女性的主要特征似乎是她只担任另一项公共工作。
Look, there are really nutty people on all sides of American ideology.
瞧，美国意识形态的各个方面都确实有疯狂的人。
And I'm not suggesting that Democrats have cornered the market on incivility.
我并不是说民主党人以不文明行为垄断了市场。
That's obviously not the case.
显然事实并非如此。
Anywhere one party has numerical dominance tends to breed bullies.
任何一方拥有数量优势的地方都容易滋生恶霸。
So the Democrats are bullies in New Jersey, and the Republicans are bullies in Texas and Utah.
所以民主党在新泽西州是恶霸，共和党在德克萨斯州和犹他州是恶霸。
What's galling is when the Democrats doing the bullying pride themselves on their tolerance, or when Republican bullies cloak themselves in their religious faith, a faith founded on notions of forgiveness and turning the other cheek.
令人恼火的是，当民主党人以他们的宽容为荣时，或者当共和党人以他们的宗教信仰为幌子时，这种信仰建立在宽恕和转过脸去的观念之上。
Montclair is a beautiful town, but it's not for me.
蒙特克莱尔是一座美丽的小镇，但它不适合我。
After the election, my family moved out.
选举后，我的家人搬了出去。
Ken Kurson is Director of Communications at Giuliani Partners and co-author of Rudy Giuliani's book, Leadership.
肯·库森 (Ken Kurson) 是朱利安尼合作伙伴 (Giuliani Partners) 的传播总监，也是鲁迪·朱利安尼 (Rudy Giuliani) 的著作《领导力》(Leadership) 的合著者。
[MUSIC - "ROCK HARD TIMES" BY EELS]
[音乐 - EELS 的“Rock Hard Times”]
Act Three, Swiss Near Miss.
第三幕，瑞士近乎小姐。
Samantha Hunt has this story that, among other things, is a story of manners, of one person acting with complete politeness and good manners, and another person not doing that.
萨曼莎·亨特（Samantha Hunt）的故事除其他外，是一个关于礼仪的故事，一个人表现得完全有礼貌和良好的举止，而另一个人却没有这样做。
Actress Claire Beckmann read her story for us.
女演员克莱尔·贝克曼为我们讲述了她的故事。
My mother lowers her voice to a whisper, even though we are speaking across a telephone line from her empty house to my empty apartment, barring the slimmest chance that anyone might hear our conversation.
尽管我们是通过电话线从她空荡荡的房子传到我空荡荡的公寓，但我母亲还是压低了声音，除非有人听到我们的谈话。
Still, she quiets herself, as if to say, the story you're about to hear is too dangerous for broadcast on the regular frequencies.
尽管如此，她还是让自己安静下来，仿佛在说，你将要听到的故事太危险了，不适合在常规频率上播放。
My mother has never been good with secrets.
我妈妈从来不善于保守秘密。
She used to think keeping them was akin to lying, so the secrets she did keep were special, only for her and my father, kept as a hedge against their children, as a private world for just the two of them, as a reminder of their lives before six kids invaded.
她曾经认为保留它们就像撒谎，所以她保留的秘密是特别的，只为她和我父亲保留，作为对他们孩子的对冲，作为他们两个人的私人世界，作为六个孩子入侵之前他们生活的提醒。
This story was one of those secrets.
这个故事就是这些秘密之一。
She decided to tell me out of the blue recently, and she behaved as though it was no big deal.
她最近突然决定告诉我，她表现得好像这没什么大不了的。
"Haven't I told you this before?" she asked.
“我之前不是跟你说过这件事吗？”她问道。
She had not.
她没有。
But things have changed since my father died three years ago.
但自从我父亲三年前去世以来，情况发生了变化。
Now it seems the doors to mystery have blown wide open in my mother's life, as if proximity to the greatest secret of all, namely where my father went, diluted the power of the secrets she once kept.
现在，我母亲生活中的神秘之门似乎已经敞开，仿佛接近最大的秘密，即我父亲去了哪里，削弱了她曾经保守的秘密的力量。
Now she'll tell anybody anything.
现在她会告诉任何人任何事情。
In 1964, my mother was a 26-year-old divorced woman living in the town of Pleasantville, New York.
1964 年，我的母亲是一位 26 岁的离婚妇女，住在纽约州普莱森维尔镇。
In the months leading up to my mother's divorce, her first husband had plowed through dates with a humiliating tally of local women.
在我母亲离婚前的几个月里，她的第一任丈夫在约会中与当地女性进行了令人羞辱的统计。
My mother's first remedy, smashing her car into his when she found him engaged in a passionate Lover's Lane moment with a woman from the Episcopal church, failed to produce helpful results.
我母亲的第一个补救措施是，当她发现他正在情人巷与圣公会教堂的一位女士进行激情时刻时，她用自己的车撞了他的车，但未能产生有效的结果。
So she left, joining the world of single women again.
于是她离开了，再次加入了单身女性的世界。
Single, but in 1964, not unstained.
单身，但在 1964 年，并非一尘不染。
The divorce was painful.
离婚是痛苦的。
Her ex became abusive and so she needed a distraction.
她的前任变得虐待她，所以她需要分散注意力。
My mother convinced her friend, [?
我妈妈说服了她的朋友，[？
Kappy, ?] a lady with a large and fierce laugh, that they had to travel, they had to escape.
卡皮，？]一位女士，大笑起来，他们必须旅行，他们必须逃跑。
Europe would be a good start.
欧洲将是一个良好的开始。
Switzerland seemed safe.
瑞士看起来很安全。
Both women were itching to flee.
两个女人都渴望逃离。
However, Kappy's father, a Catholic, stood in the way.
然而，卡皮的父亲，一名天主教徒，却从中作梗。
He would not allow [?
他不会允许[?
Kappy ?] to be in the company of a divorced woman until he had first interviewed my mother.
卡皮？] 一直和一个离婚女人在一起，直到他第一次采访我母亲。
This unbearable interview included repeated uses of the verb "to know," employed in the biblical sense.
这次令人难以忍受的采访包括重复使用圣经意义上的动词“知道”。
Despite the odds, my mother passed his test.
尽管困难重重，我母亲还是通过了考试。
That's how they found themselves in the spring of '64 in Geneva, where waves of relief and sudden joy swept over them at each sighting of non-American packs of chewing gum, each pair of funny Swiss shoes, every syllable from a foreign tongue, all the small things that proved the world was not at all small in 1964.
这就是他们在64年春天在日内瓦发现自己的方式，每当看到非美国的口香糖、每双有趣的瑞士鞋、外国语言的每一个音节，以及所有证明1964年的世界一点也不小的小事时，他们都会感到如释重负和突然的喜悦。
"We ate fondue every night.
“我们每晚都吃火锅。
We'd never even heard of fondue before," she says.
我们以前从未听说过火锅，”她说。
It was at the end of one such dinner when a waiter interrupted their hilarity.
就在一次这样的晚餐结束时，一名服务员打断了他们的欢闹。
"Excuse me, mademoiselles.
“对不起，女士们。
The gentlemen seated by the window there," and he pointed to two young Swiss men, "have insisted on paying for your meal." "We tried to protest," my mother says through the telephone, "but the men had already paid.
坐在窗边的先生们，”他指着两个瑞士年轻人，“坚持要付你们的餐费。” “我们试图抗议，”我母亲在电话中说道，“但那些人已经付了钱。
And the waiter refused to return the money to them.
而服务员拒绝将钱退还给他们。
So we shrugged and invited the men to join us."
所以我们耸耸肩并邀请这些人加入我们。”
There's a twist in my mother's voice that is audible through the phone line.
通过电话线可以听到我母亲的声音有些扭曲。
"They were extremely polite, manners that American women could only dream of finding back home then.
“他们非常有礼貌，这是当时美国女性梦寐以求的礼仪。
Maybe a Midwesterner could have been this polite, but there were no men like these men on the east coast," she says.
也许中西部人可以这么有礼貌，但东海岸没有像这些男人这样的男人，”她说。
"These men held the doors, pulled out chairs, listened intently, paid for everything, and stood each time [?
“这些人守着门，拉开椅子，专心聆听，支付一切费用，每次都站起来[？
Kappy ?] or I even considered visiting the ladies' room.
卡皮？]或者我什至考虑过去女厕所。
These were very different times," my mother clarifies.
这是非常不同的时代，”我母亲澄清道。
"After coffee at the restaurant, the four of us decided to go out dancing.
“在餐厅喝完咖啡后，我们四个人决定出去跳舞。
They took us to a magnificent night club.
他们带我们去了一家华丽的夜总会。
And by this time we had coupled up, [?
这时我们已经耦合了，[？
Kappy ?] and I having decided that she preferred one man and I preferred the other.
卡皮？]我决定她更喜欢一个男人，而我更喜欢另一个。
I got the handsome one.
我抢到了帅哥
His name was Hans.
他的名字叫汉斯。
He knew how to tango beautifully," my mother recalls across the long-distance line.
他知道如何优美地跳探戈，”我的母亲在长途电话中回忆道。
"The men were engineers working for an American company in Switzerland," she says.
“这些人是在瑞士的一家美国公司工作的工程师，”她说。
"Their relationship was that of business colleagues only, not friends.
“他们的关系只是业务同事，而不是朋友。
Still, we were all enjoying the night, and so continued drinking and dancing until 2:00 in the morning, when it was decided that what we needed was some fresh air.
尽管如此，我们都很享受这个夜晚，所以继续喝酒跳舞直到凌晨 2:00，此时我们决定需要一些新鲜空气。
We thought a walk near Lake Geneva could provide that."
我们认为在日内瓦湖附近散步可以做到这一点。”
The four set off on an early morning stroll.
清晨，四人出发去散步。
[?
[？
Kappy ?] and her date had a seat on the bench beside the lake, while my mother and Hans kept walking down to the end of the pier that jutted out across the surface of the water.
卡皮？]和她的约会对象坐在湖边的长凳上，而我的母亲和汉斯则一直走到突出在水面上的码头的尽头。
"This was back before you just rushed into a hotel room and slept together," my mother clarifies yet again.
“这是你们冲进酒店房间睡在一起之前的事，”我母亲再次澄清道。
Out on the pier, Hans stood directly behind my mother.
在码头上，汉斯站在我母亲的正后方。
The thousand lights of the city reflected off the lake.
城市的万家灯火倒映在湖面上。
Romance was nigh, my mother felt.
母亲感觉到，浪漫即将来临。
And again, a moment of relief passed through her, thinking of her ex, and then thinking of the exotic Swiss engineer who was just then no doubt preparing to kiss her.
她再次感到一阵宽慰，想起了她的前任，然后又想起了那位异国情调的瑞士工程师，他无疑正准备亲吻她。
She exhaled, and at that moment, Hans placed his hands around my mother's throat.
她呼了一口气，就在这时，汉斯双手掐住了我母亲的喉咙。
He squeezed.
他挤了挤。
He tightened once.
他绷紧了一次。
He crushed the cavity of her trachea.
他压碎了她的气管腔。
Hans wrung her neck thoroughly and effortlessly, as though he were a soldier trained in the exact art of compressing an enemy's jugular.
汉斯毫不费力地彻底扭动了她的脖子，就好像他是一名受过压缩敌人颈静脉精确训练的士兵一样。
No air could pass in or out of my mother's body.
空气无法进出我母亲的身体。
She could not move.
她无法动弹。
She could not yell.
她无法喊叫。
She could not breathe.
她无法呼吸。
She stood staring out across the lake, her arms dangling by her sides, her feet nearly lifted off the ground by the vise about her throat.
她站在那里，凝视着湖面，双臂垂在身体两侧，脖子上的虎钳几乎把她的脚抬离了地面。
She thought, "This is unbelievable.
她想：“这太令人难以置信了。
A Swiss stranger is about to kill me." And then she thought of her life up to that point, as if to see how it could have led her here.
一个瑞士陌生人要杀了我。”然后她回想起自己迄今为止的生活，仿佛是为了看看它是如何引导她来到这里的。
She wondered, "Are these the wages of my divorce?
她心想：“这就是我离婚的工资吗？
Do I deserve this?" By the shore of Lake Geneva, my mother noted the moments that passed.
我值得这样吗？”在日内瓦湖畔，母亲记下了逝去的时刻。
Hans said nothing, only continued to squeeze, as if in answer to her question.
汉斯什么也没说，只是继续挤压，仿佛在回答她的问题。
Yes, this is exactly what you deserve.
是的，这正是你应得的。
"The strangest part," my mother whispers, "is I remember the superb mental clarity I achieved as I was choked.
“最奇怪的是，”我母亲低声说，“我记得当我被噎住时，我的头脑变得异常清晰。
In that clarity, I thought, I am going to die now.
在这种清晰的感觉中，我想，我现在就要死了。
And the lights on Lake Geneva are beautiful.
日内瓦湖上的灯光很漂亮。
How sad, I was thinking, that beauty ends here.
我心里想，多么悲伤啊，美丽就到此为止了。
You really study these things when you think you're going," she says.
当你认为你要去的时候你才真正研究这些东西，”她说。
Time, that all night had been a torrent, slowed to a drip.
整夜如洪流般的时间，慢慢变成了滴水。
After a minute or two of strangulation, she was losing consciousness.
被勒死一两分钟后，她就失去了知觉。
She was staring down into the water, when finally, silent Hans spoke.
当她凝视着水中时，沉默的汉斯终于开口说话了。
He asked my mother, "What would you do if I didn't let go?" His breath was on her neck.
他问妈妈：“如果我不放手，你会怎么办？”他的呼吸喷在她的脖子上。
And she thought, "He's breathing." He held the choke a moment longer.
她想：“他在呼吸。”他又按住了一会儿。
He let go.
他放开了。
That part of the story is awful, being choked by a stranger in Switzerland.
故事的那部分很糟糕，在瑞士被一个陌生人窒息。
But both my mother and I believe that what came next is far more sinister.
但我和我的母亲都相信接下来发生的事情要险恶得多。
Rather than screaming bloody murder when she caught her breath, my mother, perhaps out of fear, or even scarier, perhaps out of fear of impropriety, simply turned and walked back to the bench, where [?
当我的母亲喘口气时，她并没有尖叫着该死的谋杀，她也许是出于恐惧，甚至更可怕，也许是出于对不当行为的恐惧，只是转身走回长凳，在那里[？
Kappy ?] and her date sat talking.
卡皮？]和她的约会对象坐着聊天。
My mother said nothing.
我妈妈什么也没说。
The four of them regrouped, walked back to their hotels, and politely said goodnight.
四人重新集合，走回酒店，礼貌地道了晚安。
40 years later, my mother still has Hans's business card.
40年后，我母亲仍然保存着汉斯的名片。
She keeps the card in a bureau drawer filed beside a buffalo nickel her grandfather gave her, a clutch of two-dollar bills she saved, and a tiny red bean filled with miniature carved ivory animals.
她把这张卡片放在书桌抽屉里，旁边放着祖父送给她的一张水牛镍币、她存下的一叠两美元的钞票，以及一颗装满微型象牙动物雕刻的小红豆。
When I asked her why she kept his card, a reminder of how she almost died, she sounded surprised.
当我问她为什么保留他的卡片时，她听起来很惊讶，这提醒着她是如何差点死掉的。
"To get revenge?" I asked.
“为了报仇？”我问。
"Oh no, not at all," she said.
“哦，不，一点也不，”她说。
"I keep it because it's part of my life."
“我保留它，因为它是我生活的一部分。”
That story from Samantha Hunt.
萨曼莎·亨特的故事。
Her novel, The Seas, comes out in the fall, and is published by McAdam-Cage.
她的小说《海洋》于秋季出版，由麦克亚当·凯奇出版。
The story was read for us by Claire Beckmann.
克莱尔·贝克曼为我们朗读了这个故事。
The program was produced today by Diane Cook and myself, with Alex Blumberg, Wendy Dorr, Jane Feltes, Sarah Koenig, and Lisa Pollak.
该节目今天由黛安·库克和我本人以及亚历克斯·布隆伯格、温迪·多尔、简·费尔特斯、莎拉·科尼格和丽莎·波拉克共同制作。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Elizabeth Meister runs our website.
伊丽莎白·梅斯特 (Elizabeth Meister) 负责运营我们的网站。
Production help from Todd Bachmann and [?
托德·巴赫曼 (Todd Bachmann) 和 [?
Will Reichel.
威尔·赖切尔.
?] Pat Tillman was killed in Afghanistan, not in Iraq, as I said in my conversation with John Cody.
？] 正如我在与约翰·科迪的谈话中所说，帕特·蒂尔曼是在阿富汗而不是在伊拉克被杀的。
[ACKNOWLEDGMENTS] David Sedaris, who we heard in our story about the FCC, has a new book, Dress Your Family in Corduroy and Denim.
[致谢] David Sedaris，我们在有关 FCC 的故事中听到过，他出版了一本新书《用灯芯绒和牛仔布装扮你的家人》。
At our web site, www.thisamericanlife.org, you can listen to our programs for free, or buy CDs of them.
在我们的网站 www.thisamericanlife.org，您可以免费收听我们的节目，或购买这些节目的 CD。
You can download audio of our program at audible.com/thisamericanlife, where they have public radio programs, bestselling books, even the New York Times, all at audible.com.
您可以在 audible.com/thisamericanlife 下载我们节目的音频，那里有公共广播节目、畅销书，甚至纽约时报，所有这些都在 audible.com 上。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight by Mr. Torey Malatia, who is tired of these things that we say about him at the end of every program.
[资金来源] WBEZ 管理由 Torey Malatia 先生监督，他厌倦了我们在每个项目结束时谈论他的这些事情。
Like he said to me just yesterday,
就像他昨天对我说的，
You F-in' B, why don't you get out of my F-in' face?
你这个该死的B，为什么不从我该死的脸上滚开呢？
I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life.
我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。