262: Miracle Cures - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #262 | April 2, 2004 262: Miracle Cures Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 262 集 | 2004 年 4 月 2 日 262：奇迹疗法 注：《This American Life》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass Back in the '60s, when Stephen was a young surgeon in Boston, a guy came in with abdominal pain, which turned out to be his gallbladder.
序言 Ira Glass 早在 60 年代，斯蒂芬还是波士顿的一名年轻外科医生时，有一个人因腹痛来院就诊，结果发现是他的胆囊疼痛。
He needed an operation.
他需要接受手术。
But the guy told Stephen this story of how, 12 years before, he'd come into that exact same hospital and had had cancer.
但这个人给史蒂芬讲了一个故事：12 年前，他来到同一家医院，却得了癌症。
It started in his stomach and had spread to his belly.
它从他的胃开始，一直蔓延到他的腹部。
The doctors opened him up.
医生给他做了手术。
And the surgeons had seen cancer that had spread into his liver and throughout his abdomen.
外科医生发现癌症已经扩散到他的肝脏和整个腹部。
They could do nothing and they just closed the abdomen and sent him home to die.
他们无能为力，只能将他腹部合上，送回家等死。
And yet, here he was 12 years later, seeming quite healthy.
然而，12 年后的今天，他看起来很健康。
Stephen was skeptical.
斯蒂芬对此表示怀疑。
Cancer usually does not just go away with no treatment at all.
癌症通常不会在不进行任何治疗的情况下自行消失。
The guy must have gotten the story wrong in some way.
这家伙肯定在某种程度上弄错了这个故事。
Then I went back to the patient's chart and I read, in fact, the pathology reports.
然后我回到病人的病历上，事实上，我读了病理报告。
And I was still skeptical.
我仍然持怀疑态度。
So then I went back and actually pulled out the slides to be sure in fact he had had the cancer.
然后我回去拿出幻灯片来确定他确实患有癌症。
And we reviewed the slides, and in fact, it was a cancer.
我们查看了幻灯片，事实上，这是一种癌症。
And then I made sure it was in fact the same patient.
然后我确定这确实是同一个病人。
And in fact, it was.
事实上，确实如此。
And then when you opened him up, were you fully expecting you were going to still find some cancer?
然后当你打开他的身体时，你是否完全预料到你仍然会发现一些癌症？
Well, it was 12 years later and I didn't know what to expect.
好吧，那是 12 年后的事了，我不知道会发生什么。
I operated on him, took out his gallbladder, examined the inside of his abdomen, and all of the cancer that had been present 12 years earlier had completely disappeared in the absence of any treatment.
我给他做了手术，取出了他的胆囊，检查了他腹部的内部，12年前就存在的所有癌症在没有任何治疗的情况下已经完全消失了。
It appeared that this patient's body had somehow rejected his cancer.
看来这位病人的身体已经以某种方式排斥了他的癌症。
This patient set me on a quest for the next 25 years to try to explain how such a thing could happen.
这位患者让我在接下来的 25 年里不断探索，试图解释这样的事情是如何发生的。
And in fact, this doctor, Stephen Rosenberg, is now a pioneer in inventing immunotherapies based on that research at The National Cancer Institute, where he's chief of surgery.
事实上，这位名叫斯蒂芬·罗森伯格的医生现在是根据国家癌症研究所的这项研究发明免疫疗法的先驱，他是该研究所的外科主任。
Now, it's interesting, you can find the story about this early case of his all over the place.
现在，有趣的是，你到处都能找到关于他这个早期案例的故事。
It circulates on the internet, it shows up in books about people spontaneously recovering from cancer, and he is not happy about that.
它在互联网上流传，它出现在关于人们从癌症中自发康复的书籍中，他对此并不满意。
He kind of hates it, in fact.
事实上，他有点讨厌这样。
Because he says that this story gives people false hope.
因为他说这个故事给人们带来了虚假的希望。
In his career, he's seen maybe 10,000 cancer patients, and this is the only case like this that he has ever encountered.
在他的职业生涯中，他看过大约一万名癌症患者，这是他遇到过的唯一一个这样的病例。
It is just fantastically rare.
这是极其罕见的。
And it is so easy, he says, for patients to get their hopes up.
他说，病人很容易抱有希望。
How could anybody not get their hopes up?
怎么会有人不抱有希望呢？
And Dr. Rosenberg has seen lots of patients taken advantage of by people who play on this dream of a spontaneous recovery.
罗森伯格博士见过很多病人被那些追求自然康复梦想的人利用。
People who prey on cancer patients, offering quack treatments, often take advantage of cancer patients who are desperate.
那些以江湖医生为目标的人，往往会利用绝望的癌症患者。
And I've seen entire families devastated as their entire resources are devoted to treatments of no value.
我看到整个家庭都被摧毁了，因为他们的全部资源都投入到了毫无价值的治疗上。
Still, hope is important.
尽管如此，希望仍然很重要。
So what do you do when people place hope in things that probably are not going to work?
那么，当人们把希望寄托在可能不会成功的事情上时，你会怎么做呢？
Well, lots of times his patients come to him asking about vitamins, and herbs, and visualization, and other treatments that have not been proven by science.
嗯，很多时候，他的病人来找他询问维生素、草药、可视化以及其他未经科学证实的治疗方法。
And if the treatments aren't actually going to hurt them in any way, he says, sure, do it.
如果这些治疗实际上不会对他们造成任何伤害，他说，当然，就去做吧。
Studies have shown that patients who are embracing life, feeling more hopeful, feeling more in control of their situation, do better, respond better to medical treatment of all kinds.
研究表明，拥抱生活、感觉更有希望、感觉更能控制自己的情况的患者会做得更好，对各种医疗治疗的反应也更好。
There are real health effects to hope itself.
希望本身确实对健康有影响。
And so, today on our radio show, we have two stories of hope, the power of hope, hope in some things that are not very likely, I have to say.
所以，今天在我们的广播节目中，我们有两个关于希望的故事，希望的力量，我不得不说，对一些不太可能发生的事情的希望。
We have stories about the great side of that and the maybe less great side of that.
我们有关于其伟大的一面和可能不那么伟大的一面的故事。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life , distributed by Public Radio International.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Our program today in two acts.
我们今天的节目分两幕。
Act One, a son tries to help his mom in a faraway place defy the laws of medical science.
第一幕，一个儿子试图帮助远在他乡的母亲，违背医学法则。
Act Two, a daughter tries to help her dad by going to a faraway place to defy the laws of the United States of America.
第二幕，一个女儿试图帮助她的父亲去一个遥远的地方违抗美国的法律。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
You may remember Davy Rothbart.
你可能还记得戴维·罗斯巴特。
He's been on our show a few times.
他来过我们的节目好几次了。
At one point, he came onto the show to tell the story of his mother, Barbara, who's a suburban mom in Ann Arbor, Michigan, who seems like lots of funny, smart moms that you have met in your life, except that she channels an ancient being named Aaron.
有一次，他在节目中讲述了他母亲芭芭拉的故事，芭芭拉是密歇根州安娜堡市的一位郊区妈妈，她看起来像你一生中遇到的很多有趣、聪明的妈妈，只是她引导了一个名叫亚伦的古老生物。
Aaron is a Buddhist monk.
亚伦是一位佛教僧人。
Aaron gives advice along Buddhist lines to people who come into the house.
亚伦向来到这所房子的人们提供佛教的建议。
He showed up in Barbara's life-- I think that's the right way to say that.
他出现在芭芭拉的生活中——我认为这样说是正确的。
He showed up in Barbara's life years ago.
几年前，他就出现在芭芭拉的生活中。
Barbara is also deaf.
芭芭拉也是聋子。
She hasn't been able to hear anything for decades.
几十年来，她已经听不到任何声音了。
And a while back, she heard about this healer in Brazil, a man who goes by the name Joao de Deus, John of God, who, people said, could make the deaf hear.
不久前，她听说了巴西的一位治疗师，他的名字叫若奥·德·德乌斯（Joao de Deus），即上帝的约翰，人们说他能让聋子听见声音。
And she wanted to go down and see if he could help her out.
她还想下去看看他能不能帮她。
Davy is really close to her and he agreed to along.
戴维和她关系非常亲密，他同意了。
She was very hopeful about it.
她对此充满希望。
She wouldn't say, I'm going to come back, I'm going to be hearing.
她不会说，我要回来，我要听。
But I could just tell that, in the months leading up to our trip, she was getting more and more excited about it.
但我可以看出，在我们旅行前的几个月里，她对此变得越来越兴奋。
She started just dropping little things in the conversation, like one night, me and her were talking about-- my little brother has a new album coming out.
她开始在谈话中谈论一些小事情，比如有一天晚上，我和她正在谈论——我的弟弟有一张新专辑即将发行。
Your brother has a band?
你哥哥有乐队吗？
Davy Rothbart Yeah, he's a musician.
戴维·罗斯巴特 是的，他是一位音乐家。
So my mom, she'd give me a little, funny smile, and she'd just say, I can't wait to hear it.
所以我妈妈会给我一个有趣的微笑，然后她会说，我迫不及待地想听。
I got excited, too.
我也很兴奋。
I talked to her about this on tape.
我在录音中和她谈过这件事。
I want to hear Peter singing.
我想听彼得唱歌。
I want to hear my mother's voice, voices of the people I love.
我想听到我母亲的声音，我爱的人的声音。
Dad's voice, which I have heard, of course, but will not remember.
爸爸的声音，我当然听过，但不会记得。
Oh, stop the tape for a second, Davy.
哦，戴维，暂停一下磁带。
We should say, your mom is deaf, but she can talk.
应该说，你妈妈是聋子，但她会说话。
And she reads lips, so whenever people hear you on these tapes you're talking really slowly and distinctly so she can read your lips, and you're also signing to her a lot of times, too.
她会读唇语，所以每当人们在这些录音带上听到你说话时，你都会非常缓慢而清晰地说话，这样她就能读懂你的唇语，而且你也会多次对她打手势。
Right, to exaggerate the space between words.
对，夸大单词之间的间距。
I want to hear some of my favorite music.
我想听一些我最喜欢的音乐。
Back at Thanksgiving, you asked me what songs I remembered, and all of my music is from the '60s.
回到感恩节，你问我记得什么歌曲，我所有的音乐都来自 60 年代。
I want to hear what's happened to music in 40 years.
我想听听 40 年来音乐发生了什么。
Want to hear some 50 Cent?
想听 50 美分吗？
Do you mean two quarters clinging together?
你的意思是两个四分之一粘在一起吗？
No, the rapper 50 Cent.
不，是说唱歌手 50 Cent。
Barbara I've never heard of the rapper 50 Cent.
芭芭拉 我从未听说过说唱歌手 50 Cent。
I want to hear everything.
我想听听一切。
Back when my mom could hear, she loved listening to music.
当我妈妈有听觉时，她喜欢听音乐。
Now she still sings sometimes.
现在她有时还会唱歌。
She still sings sometimes?
她有时还会唱歌吗？
Davy Rothbart Yeah, it kind of sounds weird.
戴维·罗斯巴特 是的，这听起来有点奇怪。
Well, it sounds interesting.
嗯，听起来很有趣。
Because she can't hear herself at all, right?
因为她根本听不到自己的声音，对吗？
Right, she has 0% hearing.
没错，她的听力是0%。
Barbara A favorite song of mine that I love to hear is "Amazing Grace." Do you know that?
芭芭拉 我最喜欢听的一首歌是“奇异恩典”。你知道吗？
I can't sing it on tune.
我唱不准。
[SINGING] Amazing grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a soul like me.
[歌唱] 奇妙的恩典，多么甜美的声音，拯救了像我这样的灵魂。
I once was lost, but now I'm found, was blind but now I see.
我曾经迷失，但现在我找到了，我曾经盲目，但现在我看见了。
[END SINGING] This song, of course, far predates my deafness, but I learned it just before I lost my hearing.
[结束演唱] 当然，这首歌早在我失聪之前就已经存在了，但我是在失去听力之前学会的。
When you can hear again, you will be able to listen to the tapes of yourself singing.
当您再次恢复听力时，您将能够聆听自己唱歌的磁带。
I'd say, ahhh.
我会说，啊啊啊。
Ira Glass So Davy, before you guys went to Brazil, what did you think was going to happen?
Ira Glass 那么戴维，在你们去巴西之前，你们认为会发生什么？
Did you view this as, oh, my mom is going to be disappointed?
你是否认为，哦，我妈妈会感到失望？
Was there a part of you where you thought that she might get a miracle cure?
你是否曾想过她可能会得到奇迹般的治愈？
You know what?
你知道吗？
I had no idea.
我不知道。
Who knows?
谁知道？
And I think my mom's excitement got me excited about it, too.
我想我妈妈的兴奋也让我感到兴奋。
So I had heard stories from her friend who had been down there and had seen Joao heal deaf people.
所以我从她的朋友那里听说了一些故事，她曾去过那里，并看到若昂治愈了聋人。
Wait, and your mom's friend actually saw this happen with her own eyes?
等等，你妈妈的朋友真的亲眼目睹了这一切吗？
Yeah.
是的。
So I was also nervous because sometimes it was sort of heartbreaking because I would see her begin to get so excited about it.
所以我也很紧张，因为有时这有点令人心碎，因为我会看到她开始对此感到如此兴奋。
So Davy, where are we now?
那么戴维，我们现在在哪里？
Davy Rothbart Now we're down in Brazil.
戴维·罗斯巴特 现在我们来到了巴西。
It took us 31 hours to get there from Michigan.
我们从密歇根州花了 31 个小时才到达那里。
It's in a tiny town in the middle of Brazil called Abadiania.
它位于巴西中部一个名叫阿巴迪亚尼亚的小镇。
It's just, really, like a little village with a few farms and some houses, a little factory where they make bricks.
它真的就像一个小村庄，有一些农场和一些房屋，还有一个制砖的小工厂。
And you know, a lot of sick people wandering around.
你知道，有很多病人在四处游荡。
And this is the sort of place where the town's main industry is healing tourists?
这就是小镇的主要产业是治愈游客的地方吗？
Yeah, it's like a one-company town, a miracle town.
是的，它就像一个只有一家公司的小镇，一个奇迹小镇。
People have come here on buses from all over Brazil.
人们乘坐巴士从巴西各地来到这里。
They'll drive for 36 hours just to visit for a few hours with Joao and then go home.
他们会开车 36 个小时，只是为了和 Joao 待上几个小时，然后回家。
And everywhere you go, people are telling these miracle stories.
无论你走到哪里，人们都在讲述这些奇迹的故事。
There's this guy, Marcel, who owns a little pizza restaurant.
有一个人，马塞尔，拥有一家小披萨店。
He actually came there because his dad had been sick.
他实际上来这里是因为他父亲病了。
I have a friend, Alessandro.
我有一个朋友，亚历山德罗。
He lives in Abadiania, and I show you when he walk around.
他住在阿巴迪亚尼亚，我带你看看他四处走动的情况。
He had multiple sclerosis.
他患有多发性硬化症。
That's the right name?
这是正确的名字吗？
Yeah, sclerosis.
是的，硬化症。
Man OK, he could not walk, problem to move, even to talk.
男子还好，他不能走路，行动有问题，甚至说话也有问题。
Only his mother could understand him.
只有他的母亲能够理解他。
He came here today, every day you can see he go into university, walking, he play volleyball with the people around.
他今天来到这里，每天你都可以看到他上大学，走路，他和周围的人打排球。
I figured, while I'm going with my mom to help her out, see if she can get her hearing back, I'd try to get healed, too.
我想，当我和妈妈一起去帮助她，看看她是否能恢复听力时，我也会努力康复。
I have this skin thing, it's called psoriasis.
我有这种皮肤病，它叫牛皮癣。
And basically, it's like your skin gets kind of all red and scaly looking.
基本上，就像你的皮肤变得全红并且看起来有鳞片。
And I have it on my chest and my back and part of my scalp.
我把它放在我的胸部、背部和部分头皮上。
We should say to people who are trying to picture this that we're not talking about like, you just have dry skin, or red skin, that it's way more serious than that.
我们应该对那些试图想象这种情况的人说，我们不是在谈论，你只是皮肤干燥，或皮肤发红，这比这更严重。
Yeah, there's an arthritis that is associated with psoriasis, which I actually have.
是的，有一种关节炎与牛皮癣有关，我确实患有牛皮癣。
And it makes your joints and everything terribly painful.
它会让你的关节和一切都非常痛苦。
They swell up.
它们膨胀起来。
I've had times when I couldn't walk.
我也有过无法走路的时候。
And that's scary.
这很可怕。
So I thought I would, you know, why not see if Joao could heal me, too.
所以我想，你知道，为什么不看看若昂是否也能治愈我呢。
Good morning.
早上好。
On behalf of [?
代表 [？
Medio ?] Joao Teixeira de Faria, welcome you all to his spiritual center.
Medio ？] Joao Teixeira de Faria，欢迎大家来到他的精神中心。
All belief systems are welcome here.
这里欢迎所有信仰体系。
So where are we now?
那么我们现在在哪里？
Davy Rothbart We're in line at the Casa.
戴维·罗斯巴特：我们在 Casa 排队。
The Casa is the place where Joao does his healing.
Casa 是若昂治疗的地方。
It's like a little healing center, compound.
它就像一个小型治疗中心，复合体。
And this is the first time we're going to meet him, and then see if he can cure us.
这是我们第一次见到他，然后看看他是否能治愈我们。
It's just early in the morning.
现在才凌晨。
We're in the middle of a crowd of, like, 300 or 400 people.
我们身处大约 300 或 400 人的人群之中。
And most of them are Brazilian, but about a quarter of us are foreigners from the US and, really, all over the world.
他们中的大多数是巴西人，但我们中约有四分之一是来自美国乃至世界各地的外国人。
Everyone's dressed in white, head to toe.
每个人从头到脚都穿着白色的衣服。
It's like the Casa dress code.
这就像 Casa 的着装要求。
You've got to dress in white.
你必须穿白色衣服。
And it's funny, they've got Enya bumping over the PA system.
有趣的是，他们让恩雅撞到了公共广播系统。
Basically, you have all these people just waiting out in this grand hall, waiting to go before Joao.
基本上，所有这些人都在这个大厅里等着，等着在若奥面前走。
It just feels like a gigantic low-cost medical clinic.
感觉就像一个巨大的低成本医疗诊所。
Everybody in this first line, please step back a little bit so that we can form the line.
第一排的每个人请退后一点，以便我们可以排队。
It's about 10 deep right now.
现在大概有10深。
So Davy, so I know that your mom hired a translator and a guide for you guys.
戴维，我知道你们妈妈为你们雇了一名翻译和一名导游。
Is she there with you during this part?
这段时间她在你身边吗？
Yeah, she's right there.
是的，她就在那里。
Her name is Heather.
她的名字叫希瑟。
While we were waiting there, she told us how Joao had come to be Joao.
当我们在那里等待时，她告诉我们若昂是如何成为若昂的。
It wasn't going through medical school.
它没有经过医学院。
He has a second grade education.
他受过二年级教育。
And when he was 16 years old, he was coming out of a town called Campo Grande in Mato Grosso.
当他 16 岁时，他来自马托格罗索州一个叫大坎普的小镇。
And he'd just lost his job as a tailor's assistant.
他刚刚失去了裁缝助理的工作。
And he was hungry and tired and lonely and on his way home.
他又饿又累又孤独，走在回家的路上。
And basically, while he was there on the road, what happened to Joao was he was visited by the spirit of St. Rita.
基本上，当他在路上时，若昂发生的事情是圣丽塔的灵魂拜访了他。
And she gave him just, like, this unfamiliar address.
她给了他这个陌生的地址。
She told him, go back into town, knock on the door at this house.
她告诉他，回城去，敲一下这所房子的门。
They said, "Are you Joao?" He said, "I'm Joao, I was told to come here.
他们说：“你是若奥吗？”他说：“我是若奥，我被告知要来这里。
They said, "We've been waiting for you."
他们说：“我们一直在等你。”
The next thing he remembered is coming out of a faint.
他记得的下一件事就是从昏厥中清醒过来。
And he was very apologetic and said, "Gosh, I must have been so hungry that I fainted.
他非常抱歉地说：“天哪，我一定是太饿了，所以我晕倒了。
I'm so sorry." And they said, "Oh, no. You incorporated King Solomon and you've just healed over 50 people.
我很抱歉。”他们说：“哦，不。你合并了所罗门王，并且刚刚治愈了 50 多人。
You've incorporated King Solomon.
你已经合并了所罗门王。
What does that mean?
这意味着什么？
Incorporating, it's like channeling, except instead of just channeling the voice of a spirit, basically your whole body becomes completely possessed.
融入，就像通灵一样，只不过不是仅仅通灵的声音，基本上你的整个身体都被完全附身了。
So the idea is that there's 37 of the world's greatest healers of all time, and they just kind of take turns entering his body and performing these works of healing.
所以我们的想法是，世界上有 37 位有史以来最伟大的治疗师，他们只是轮流进入他的身体并进行这些治疗工作。
They call these guys the entities.
他们称这些人为实体。
And are these healers that we would have heard of?
这些治疗师是我们听说过的吗？
Are these, like, famous people?
这些是名人吗？
Oh, there's a few all stars on this roster.
哦，这个名单上有一些全明星。
You know, there's St. Ignatius and St. Francis, King Solomon.
你知道，有圣伊格内修斯和圣弗朗西斯，所罗门王。
There's a guy named Dr. Octavio Cruz, he's like the father of Brazilian medicine.
有一个人叫奥克塔维奥·克鲁兹博士，他就像巴西医学之父。
Each of these spirits has a different personality.
这些灵魂中的每一个都有不同的个性。
In fact, the music that they play over the loudspeakers there, each one has a separate musical preference.
事实上，他们通过扬声器播放的音乐，每个人都有自己不同的音乐偏好。
So depending on which entity Joao is channeling, they'll play whatever music they most like.
因此，根据 Joao 所通灵的实体，他们会播放他们最喜欢的任何音乐。
OK, so you guys are standing there in this big room with hundreds of people in this line.
好的，你们站在这个大房间里，有数百人在排队。
How long does that last?
这会持续多久？
About a couple of hours.
大约几个小时。
And then Heather says it's our turn.
然后希瑟说轮到我们了。
She gets me and my mom into the right line and kind of sends us through to see Joao.
她让我和我妈妈排好队，然后让我们去见若昂。
Just keep coming through.
只要坚持下去就可以了。
I'll meet you inside.
我会在里面见到你。
First, we go through a couple of rooms where there's just a bunch of people meditating in chairs with their eyes closed.
首先，我们穿过几个房间，那里只有一群人闭着眼睛坐在椅子上冥想。
And then, finally, you can see him just way up at the front of the room.
最后，你可以看到他就在房间前面。
He sits in a big, wooden chair.
他坐在一张大木椅上。
It's almost like a throne.
它几乎就像一个王座。
And he's got a beige shirt on, hospital scrubs.
他穿着一件米色衬衫和医院工作服。
He's about 50 years old maybe, dark, wavy hair, round face, glasses.
他大约 50 岁左右，深色卷发，圆脸，戴着眼镜。
He's sitting there and he's got, like, a ballpoint pen and just a bunch of little slips of paper on his lap.
他坐在那里，膝盖上放着一支圆珠笔和一叠小纸条。
And as each person goes in front of him for a few seconds, he does a real quick little scribble and just gives them the scrap of paper.
当每个人走到他面前几秒钟时，他会快速地写下一小段文字，然后给他们一张纸片。
It's almost like some old baseball player giving autographs at a baseball card show.
这几乎就像一些老棒球运动员在棒球卡展上签名一样。
So when we get up to see him, Heather explains my mom's deafness to him and she tells him about my psoriasis to Joao in Portuguese.
因此，当我们起床去看他时，希瑟向他解释了我妈妈耳聋的原因，并用葡萄牙语向若昂讲述了我患有牛皮癣的情况。
[SPEAKING PORTUGUESE] Joao De Deus [SPEAKING PORTUGUESE]
[葡萄牙语] Joao De Deus [葡萄牙语]
To me, this is like the moment of truth maybe.
对我来说，这也许就是关键时刻。
But Joao barely looks at us.
但若奥几乎没有看我们一眼。
I mean, he just kind of nods and gives us one of those papers with this crazy squiggle on it.
我的意思是，他只是点了点头，然后给了我们一张上面写着疯狂曲线的文件。
And Heather tells us it's our prescription.
希瑟告诉我们这是我们的处方。
She says that Joao, he doesn't have to actually examine us because the entities have just been checking us out as we were approaching him in line.
她说若奥，他不必真正检查我们，因为当我们排队接近他时，实体刚刚检查了我们。
And she points me and my mom to a room where everyone's meditating and just says, you know, go over there, sit in current.
她把我和我妈妈带到一个房间，每个人都在冥想，然后说，你知道，去那里，坐在水流中。
They call it sitting in current.
他们称之为坐在电流中。
Go sit in the other current room.
去坐在当前的另一个房间。
You stay here till the end.
你留在这里直到最后。
Hold on to that.
坚持下去。
That's your medicine.
那是你的药。
I'll tell you later.
我稍后告诉你。
Current means like the current, the electrical current that comes from all the entities?
电流是指像电流一样，来自所有实体的电流？
Well, when you sit in current, it's like this, everyone that's there meditating is sort of conducting this powerful, spiritual current.
嗯，当你坐在电流中时，就像这样，每个在那里冥想的人都在传导这种强大的精神电流。
And that gives energy to Joao and the entities while they're doing the healing.
这会在若昂和实体进行治疗时为他们提供能量。
So you sit in this current room and you're just supposed to keep your eyes closed, make sure not to cross your arms or your legs because that disrupts the flow of energy.
所以你坐在当前的房间里，你应该闭上眼睛，确保不要交叉双臂或双腿，因为这会扰乱能量的流动。
Most people in there are sitting pretty still.
里面的大多数人都一动不动地坐着。
A couple people have fallen asleep.
几个人已经睡着了。
There's people that are making this weird, spooky, hissing sound.
有人发出这种奇怪的、令人毛骨悚然的嘶嘶声。
It sounds like this.
听起来是这样的。
[HISSING SOUND] So after like an hour of that, we all went outside and Heather told us to go the pharmacy window.
[嘶嘶声]大约一个小时后，我们都出去了，希瑟告诉我们去药房窗口。
Behind the counter there, it's just a kid sitting on a little stool, probably, like, 15-year-old kid with a Casa t-shirt.
柜台后面有一个小孩子坐在小凳子上，大概是个 15 岁的孩子，穿着 Casa T 恤。
So me and my mom, we give this kid our pieces of paper with like Joao's scribble on it.
所以我和我妈妈给了这个孩子一张纸片，上面写着若昂的涂鸦。
And he really doesn't even look at the paper.
而且他真的连报纸都没看。
He just takes them from us.
他只是把它们从我们身边夺走。
He reaches down into this cardboard box at his feet and he pulls out some pill bottles and just gives us the pills.
他把手伸进脚边的纸箱里，拿出一些药瓶，给了我们药片。
They're like these little Joao brand pills.
它们就像这些 Joao 牌小药丸。
And then I see him give the same pills to the guy behind me, and the person behind that guy.
然后我看到他给我身后的人和那个人后面的人同样的药。
We all get the same exact pill bottles.
我们都得到一模一样的药瓶。
Heather tells us that these pills, they're just a passion flower extract, but the entities spike each capsule with a special energy.
希瑟告诉我们，这些药丸只是西番莲提取物，但这些实体在每个胶囊中注入了特殊的能量。
It's a vehicle to carry the energy that is imbued into the herbs for that particular person.
它是一种载体，可以为特定的人携带注入草药的能量。
Unique for you, so you can't give it your sister, your brother.
对你来说是独一无二的，所以你不能把它给你的姐妹、你的兄弟。
It is for your condition.
这是针对你的条件的。
So Heather tells us what Joao's treatment plans are for me and my mom.
希瑟告诉我们若昂为我和我妈妈制定的治疗计划。
Me and my mom are scheduled for surgery.
我和我妈妈计划进行手术。
Wait, wait.
等等，等等。
Surgery?
外科手术？
You mean like, surgery surgery?
你的意思是，手术？
Like, they cut into you?
比如，他们切入你的身体？
Well, no, it's psychic surgery.
嗯，不，这是心灵手术。
You're told this is how it works.
有人告诉你这就是它的工作原理。
Basically, you just sit in this room with 20 other people in a chair and the entities perform surgery on you.
基本上，你只需坐在这个房间里，与其他 20 个人坐在椅子上，实体就会对你进行手术。
You just can't see it happen.
你只是看不到它发生。
I mean, Joao is not even in the room.
我的意思是，若昂甚至不在房间里。
And you get the surgery, too?
你也接受手术吗？
Davy Rothbart Yeah, I get surgery, too.
戴维·罗斯巴特 是的，我也接受手术。
I mean, I sit next to my mom and we have the surgery together.
我的意思是，我坐在妈妈旁边，我们一起做手术。
I'm sitting here and my mom is next to me and she's breathing.
我坐在这里，我妈妈坐在我旁边，她在呼吸。
I can feel her breathing really slowly and sort of intensely.
我能感觉到她的呼吸非常缓慢而且有些强烈。
And I'm not feeling anything, but I don't know.
我没有任何感觉，但我不知道。
I'm hoping she's experiencing something.
我希望她正在经历一些事情。
It seems strange now, but I was so kind of disoriented.
现在看来很奇怪，但我有点迷失方向。
And just everything was so weird.
一切都那么奇怪。
I never really felt like I had steady footing.
我从来没有真正感觉到自己已经站稳了脚跟。
I didn't know what was going on.
我不知道发生了什么事。
I don't know, I felt like maybe it could all be real.
我不知道，我觉得也许这一切都可能是真的。
Heather, she warns us.
希瑟，她警告我们。
She says, you know, don't be too active right after invisible surgery, because you can rip out the invisible sutures that the entities have just put in.
她说，你知道，隐形手术后不要太活跃，因为你可以撕掉实体刚刚放入的隐形缝线。
She says, you've got to treat it just like you would conventional surgery.
她说，你必须像传统手术一样对待它。
And just stay in bed.
就呆在床上吧。
And in fact, after these invisible surgeries, we were both totally exhausted.
事实上，在这些隐形手术之后，我们都已经筋疲力尽了。
And we went to our rooms and we just slept soundly, totally for about 24 hours.
我们回到自己的房间，睡得很香，整整睡了大约 24 小时。
The next morning, I wake up and I can look down and see there's been no miracle for my skin.
第二天早上，我醒来，低头一看，发现我的皮肤没有出现奇迹。
I'm not cured.
我还没有痊愈。
And it was really humid, so my tape recorder was sticking a little bit.
而且天气真的很潮湿，所以我的录音机有点粘住。
So the sound's a little bit funny, but this is tape of me just kind of going down to visit my mom for the first time after the surgery.
所以声音有点有趣，但这是我手术后第一次去看望我妈妈的磁带。
It's the morning after surgery and I feel pretty groggy.
这是手术后的第二天早上，我感觉很昏昏沉沉。
I slept almost 24 hours straight, and I'm ravenous.
我几乎连续睡了 24 小时，而且我很饿。
I'm going to go down to breakfast and see if my mom can hear again.
我要去楼下吃早餐，看看我妈妈是否还能听见。
Going downstairs.
下楼去。
I hear some voices down there on breakfast.
我听到楼下有一些吃早餐的声音。
There she is.
她就在那里。
She's talking to someone.
她正在和某人说话。
Well, she's looking at something.
嗯，她正在看什么东西。
Hey Mom.
嘿妈妈。
Mom.
妈妈。
I'm right behind you.
我就在你身后。
She doesn't see me.
她没有看到我。
Hey Mom.
嘿妈妈。
Mom.
妈妈。
I'm right in your ear.
我就在你耳边。
Mom, can you hear me?
妈妈，你能听到我说话吗？
Can you hear me?
你能听到我吗？
She can't hear me.
她听不到我说话。
OK, so clearly at this point, you probably realize like, OK, your mom didn't get her hearing back.
好吧，现在很清楚，你可能意识到，好吧，你妈妈没有恢复听力。
Did they warn you that it wasn't going to be like, OK, man puts his hands on you and, kaboom, you know, that suddenly you get your hearing back?
他们有没有警告过你，不会是这样，好吧，男人把手放在你身上，然后，突然，你知道，你的听力会突然恢复？
But that it might take weeks or more?
但这可能需要几周或更长时间？
Yeah.
是的。
They said there's a whole range of possibilities.
他们说有各种各样的可能性。
Some people are healed instantly.
有些人立刻就痊愈了。
Some people, it takes a couple of weeks.
有些人需要几周的时间。
Some people, a couple months.
有些人，几个月。
Some people, a couple years.
有些人，几年。
But still, change will happen a little bit at a time.
但变化仍然会一次发生一点点。
So I tapped her on the shoulder and I asked her if she felt any different?
于是我拍了拍她的肩膀，问她是否感觉有什么不同？
And she said she thought she felt like a greater sensitivity to vibration.
她说她觉得自己对振动更加敏感。
Maybe it could be a sign that her hearing was coming back.
也许这可能是她听力恢复的迹象。
And then she asked me how I was feeling.
然后她问我感觉如何。
How are you feeling?
你感觉怎么样？
Davy Rothbart I don't feel so great.
戴维·罗斯巴特 我感觉不太好。
It's either the invisible surgeries and the sutures within me, or it's the runs.
要么是我体内隐形的手术和缝合，要么是跑步。
The rest?
其余的部分？
Davy Rothbart The runs.
戴维·罗斯巴特 奔跑。
The R-U-N-S.
R-U-N-S。
T-R-U-N-S.
T-R-U-N-S。
What is T-R-U-N-S?
什么是 T-R-U-N-S？
Davy Rothbart The runs.
戴维·罗斯巴特 奔跑。
The rust?
铁锈？
Davy Rothbart She's still clearly very deaf.
戴维·罗斯巴特：她显然还是很聋。
Ladies and gentlemen, it's the comedy musings of Ken.
女士们先生们，这是肯的喜剧思考。
I don't tell jokes.
我不讲笑话。
I only channel jokes from the entities.
我只传达来自实体的笑话。
This is a few days after our surgeries, and there's sort of a town talent show.
这是我们手术后几天，镇上有一场才艺表演。
I'm translating all of this into sign language for my mom.
我正在将所有这些翻译成手语给我妈妈。
Most of us foreigners are here for several weeks, so the town's got this whole kind of summer camp feeling.
我们大多数外国人都会在这里待上几个星期，所以这个小镇有一种夏令营的感觉。
This is Ken and his doctors at home had given him a few weeks to live.
这是肯和他家里的医生给他的生存时间。
He's got some kind of severe liver problem and he's supposed to die soon.
他患有某种严重的肝脏问题，他应该很快就会死。
How many entities does it take to change a light bulb?
更换一个灯泡需要多少实体？
How many?
多少？
Ken Zero, we've already seen the light.
肯·零，我们已经看到曙光了。
So you basically do the same thing every day.
所以你基本上每天都做同样的事情。
Take the pills, you either see Joao, or you spend more time in that current room, the meditation room.
服下药丸，你要么看到若奥，要么花更多时间在当前的房间，冥想室。
And people are so nice.
人们都很好。
A lot of them are really down to earth.
他们中的很多人都是脚踏实地的。
They're really cool and just really friendly.
他们真的很酷而且非常友好。
And so I am getting along with people and it's sort of powerful just to be around so many people that have cancer, AIDS, people that are really close to dying.
所以我和人们相处得很好，身边有这么多患有癌症、艾滋病、濒临死亡的人，这感觉有点强大。
Why?
为什么？
Ken He was already on the other side.
肯赫已经在另一边了。
[LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE] Davy Rothbart The problem is, everyone's telling you these miracle stories all the time, just constant miracle stories, but you don't see any miracles.
[笑声和掌声]戴维·罗斯巴特 问题是，每个人都一直在告诉你这些奇迹故事，只是不断的奇迹故事，但你却看不到任何奇迹。
People in wheelchairs are still in wheelchairs.
坐轮椅的人仍然坐在轮椅上。
Blind folks are still blind.
盲人依然是盲人。
They're like urban legends.
他们就像都市传说。
And it's like they can smell my skepticism.
就好像他们能闻到我的怀疑态度。
It's like the way animals can smell fear.
这就像动物能闻到恐惧的味道一样。
And to them, everything that happens, everything that goes on there proves that they're right and that these entities exist.
对他们来说，发生的一切、发生的一切都证明他们是对的，并且这些实体存在。
You know, like my back was just starting to kill because you're sitting in this current room for just hours and hours on end.
你知道，就像我的背开始痛一样，因为你在这个房间里连续坐了几个小时。
They told me that the pain was proof that the entities are working on me.
他们告诉我，疼痛证明这些实体正在对我起作用。
And I was like--
我当时想——
So in their view, is there like even room for coincidence?
那么在他们看来，还有巧合的余地吗？
Or--?
或者 - ？
No. No, anything that happens, whatever happens, happens for a reason.
不，不，任何发生的事情，无论发生什么，发生都是有原因的。
And I mean, it would be one thing if they just asked me to believe or just to try to believe, but they all tried to convince me that it's based on science.
我的意思是，如果他们只是要求我相信或只是尝试相信，那是一回事，但他们都试图让我相信这是基于科学的。
Here's a couple examples.
这里有几个例子。
Our hearts create a field of energy around our bodies.
我们的心脏在我们的身体周围创造了一个能量场。
We know this now.
我们现在知道了。
We can measure it.
我们可以测量它。
Each of us holds a vibration, and that vibration attracts other like vibrations and affects other vibrations.
我们每个人都拥有一种振动，这种振动会吸引其他类似的振动并影响其他振动。
We also know that medium Joao has been hooked up to electrodes and that he goes down to 0 resistance.
我们还知道中号 Joao 已连接到电极并且他的电阻降至 0。
So he becomes like a lightning rod.
所以他变得像一根避雷针。
Because I'm a Capricorn, I have bad knees.
因为我是摩羯座，所以我的膝盖不好。
And I felt them working on my knees, and I also felt them working on my elbow.
我感觉到它们在我的膝盖上工作，我也感觉到它们在我的肘部上工作。
Capricorns are known for having bad knees?
摩羯座的膝盖不好是出了名的吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Davy Rothbart For my mom, the longer her hearing is not coming back, the more obsessed she kind of becomes with just following every little rule of the place.
戴维·罗斯巴特（Davy Rothbart） 对于我妈妈来说，她的听力恢复的时间越长，她就越痴迷于遵守这个地方的每一条小规则。
Like, Heather told us we have to stock up on holy water, the holy water they have at the Casa gift shop.
就像，希瑟告诉我们，我们必须储备圣水，他们在卡萨礼品店有圣水。
And it's really just a regular brand of-- it's just bottled water, but it's been blessed by the entities.
它实际上只是一个普通品牌——只是瓶装水，但它得到了实体的祝福。
And here, me and my mom are at breakfast.
在这里，我和妈妈正在吃早餐。
And my mom catches me drinking the regular bottled water.
我妈妈发现我喝普通的瓶装水。
You'll have to brush your teeth.
你必须刷牙。
Humor me and drink this.
逗我开心，喝了这个。
It's the same thing, except this one is cold.
都是一样的，只不过这个是冷的。
This has extra energy in it.
这里面有额外的能量。
Davy Rothbart What extra energy?
戴维·罗斯巴特 什么额外的能量？
I see the skeptical side of you coming to [UNINTELLIGIBLE], and I think that, for your skin condition, I think it would be healing for you.
我看到你对[无法理解]持怀疑态度，我认为，对于你的皮肤状况，我认为这会对你有所帮助。
I'm having trouble a little bit with the whole program here.
我在这里的整个程序遇到了一些麻烦。
Why is this holy water different--?
为什么这圣水不一样——？
The entities have really given their energy into this water.
这些实体确实将他们的能量投入到了这水中。
They've raised the frequency vibration.
他们提高了振动频率。
And it's a different vibration of [?
这是 [? 的不同振动。
frequence.
频率。
?] It's a charged water, let's call it.
？] 这是带电的水，我们就这么称呼它吧。
If I gave you the Pepsi challenge, and put some holy water in one cup and some regular bottled water in the other cup, would you tell the difference?
如果我给你百事可乐挑战，在一个杯子里放一些圣水，在另一个杯子里放一些普通瓶装水，你能看出区别吗？
I don't know.
我不知道。
Over a period of days of drinking one or the other, I would feel the difference.
经过几天的饮用其中一种或另一种，我会感觉到不同。
But talking about the whole program here, Davy, this is-- I know you respect me.
但在这里谈论整个计划，戴维，这是——我知道你尊重我。
I do.
我愿意。
Barbara This is consistent with everything that I know and have learned in the past 15 years.
芭芭拉 这与我过去 15 年所知道和学到的一切是一致的。
This is the problem.
这就是问题所在。
My mom's trying to use my belief in channeling to get me to belief in Joao.
我妈妈试图利用我对通灵的信仰来让我相信若昂。
Yeah, just to remind people of how you've talked about this in the past, your mom channels this ancient being, Aaron.
是的，只是为了提醒人们你过去如何谈论这个，你妈妈引导了这个古老的存在，亚伦。
And the last time you came on the show and talked about it, you described it this way.
上次你上节目谈论这件事时，你是这样描述的。
You said that, basically you faced this choice as her kid.
你说，基本上你作为她的孩子就面临这个选择。
You could decide that channeling isn't real and your mom's a little crazy.
你可能会认为通灵并不真实，而且你妈妈有点疯狂。
And you don't think she's crazy.
而且你不认为她疯了。
She's really wonderful in so many ways.
她在很多方面都非常出色。
And so you sort of provisionally were thinking, OK, well, maybe this is real.
所以你暂时在想，好吧，好吧，也许这是真的。
Yeah.
是的。
And I've seen the work that she does with Aaron.
我看过她和亚伦一起做的工作。
And I've seen how helpful it is to people.
我已经看到它对人们有多大帮助。
Aaron gives people advice?
阿龙给人们提建议？
Davy Rothbart Yeah, so I've seen the good that comes out of that.
戴维·罗斯巴特：是的，所以我看到了由此带来的好处。
But now she's upping the stakes.
但现在她加大了赌注。
She's saying, if I'm going to keep believing in Aaron and that stuff, I also have to believe in Joao and the entities.
她说，如果我要继续相信亚伦和那些东西，我也必须相信若奥和实体。
So it's like you're at a kind of showdown with her?
所以你就像是在和她摊牌？
Yeah.
是的。
And I didn't realize this was going to happen.
我没有意识到这会发生。
But it's true, at home it's easy to sort of each believe what we want to believe and just, it never has to come to a head.
但确实如此，在家里，每个人都很容易相信我们想相信的东西，而且，它永远不会发展到紧要关头。
So is there any point down there when you thought that you started to believe a little bit?
那么，当你认为自己开始相信一点点的时候，还有什么意义吗？
All those who have surgery, please raise there hand.
请所有做手术的人举手。
So what's going on now?
那么现在发生了什么？
Davy Rothbart We're at the Casa.
戴维·罗斯巴特 我们在卡萨。
We're going to see some physical surgeries.
我们将看到一些物理手术。
Yeah, knife.
是的，刀。
Ira Glass He does those, too?
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）他也这么做吗？
Yeah.
是的。
He cuts into people.
他切入人们的内心。
Scrapes their eyes.
刮伤他们的眼睛。
No anesthetic.
没有麻醉剂。
Joao wouldn't let me record the operations, but he let me stand right there next to him while he did them.
若昂不让我记录操作，但他让我在他操作时站在他旁边。
I knew this morning that a couple of the people I'd gotten to be friends with, Gregor and Cynthia, they're from Baltimore.
今天早上我知道与我成为朋友的几个人，格雷戈尔和辛西娅，他们来自巴尔的摩。
Gregor has MS, so he's in a wheelchair.
格雷戈尔患有多发性硬化症，所以他坐在轮椅上。
And Cynthia has some ailments, so she wanted to get surgery, too.
辛西娅有一些疾病，所以她也想接受手术。
OK, so how's it go?
好的，怎么样？
You go in there with Cynthia and she's in there with him.
你和辛西娅一起进去，她和他一起在那里。
What's he do?
他是做什么的？
Well, she's standing there with her eyes closed and he just kind of tilts her head back a little bit.
好吧，她闭着眼睛站在那里，他只是将她的头向后倾斜了一点。
He's got this wicked-looking instrument.
他有这个看起来很邪恶的乐器。
They call it a Kelly clamp.
他们称之为凯利夹。
It's about seven inches long.
它长约七英寸。
It's basically a long, metal skinny scissors with a little cotton ball kind of in the pliers tip of it.
它基本上是一把长的金属细剪刀，钳子尖端有一个小棉球。
OK, I can feel where this is going.
好吧，我能感觉到事情的发展方向。
Let me just warn people, this might get a little graphic.
让我警告人们，这可能会变得有点生动。
OK, continue Davy.
好的，继续戴维。
He tilts her head back.
他把她的头向后仰。
He dips the point of it just kind of up her right nostril.
他把尖端浸入她的右鼻孔。
And then he turns around and just slams it all the way in, so just all the way to the handle, straight back into her head.
然后他转过身来，把它猛地撞了进去，一直撞到手柄上，直接撞回了她的脑袋。
Oh my God.
我的天啊。
Davy Rothbart It was horrifying.
戴维·罗斯巴特 这太可怕了。
It was the most upsetting thing I've ever seen.
这是我见过的最令人沮丧的事情。
The room kind of started swirling around me.
房间开始在我周围旋转。
And everything got really silent.
一切都变得非常安静。
There's sort of like a roar fills your ears.
耳朵里仿佛充满了咆哮声。
And I just kept watching as he started kind of poking and jabbing around in there.
我只是一直看着他开始在那里戳戳。
It was like if you're trying to scrape in a jar of peanut butter to get the last little bit out.
这就好像你想把一罐花生酱刮进去，把最后一点花生酱刮出来。
OK, and so what is she doing?
好吧，那她在做什么呢？
Is she like screaming?
她像尖叫一样吗？
Like, what's she doing?
比如，她在做什么？
She's just standing there, pretty calmly.
她只是站在那里，很平静。
I mean, she looks maybe a little uncomfortable.
我的意思是，她看起来可能有点不舒服。
But she's very calm.
但她很平静。
Then what happens?
然后会发生什么？
Davy Rothbart Well, then after 30 seconds of that, he pulls the thing out and she kind of just collapses into a chair.
戴维·罗斯巴特 好吧，30 秒后，他把东西拉了出来，她就倒在了椅子上。
And they wheel her off into this sort of infirmary.
他们把她推进这样的医务室。
And that's the last I see of her for a little while.
这是我有一段时间最后一次见到她了。
So I go and just sit down in one of these chairs for another hour or two.
所以我就去其中一把椅子上再坐一两个小时。
I'm freaking out.
我吓坏了。
Because like, I just saw something that should not be possible, that there's no way that could happen.
因为就像，我刚刚看到了一些不应该发生的事情，那是不可能发生的。
What he just did should have killed her and it didn't.
他刚才所做的事本应该要了她的命，但事实却没有。
I have to say, it was an hour or two like I've never had before.
我不得不说，这是我以前从未经历过的一两个小时。
And I was just completely shaken.
我完全震惊了。
I was just sitting there and I didn't know what to believe.
我只是坐在那里，不知道该相信什么。
After I'd been sitting there for a couple hours, I went outside and I was standing with Gregor, her husband, who's in a wheelchair.
我在那里坐了几个小时后，走到外面，和她坐在轮椅上的丈夫格雷戈尔站在一起。
And he was anxious about how she was and then she comes kind of skipping out, just happy as can be.
他对她的状况感到焦虑，然后她就有点逃走了，只是很高兴。
Of course, she'd had her eyes closed the whole time.
当然，她自始至终都是闭着眼睛的。
What does the thing actually even look like, the apparatus?
这个装置实际上看起来是什么样子？
Is it big or is it small?
它是大还是小？
I have no idea.
我不知道。
It's about a seven-inch scissors, like--
这是一把七英寸的剪刀，就像——
I don't know if it's a good thing for me to describe it to you.
我不知道向你描述它是否是一件好事。
Honestly, he twisted it back, so it was going like almost straight back into your brain.
老实说，他把它扭了回来，所以它几乎直接回到了你的大脑中。
And then he just jammed it all the way in.
然后他就把它完全塞了进去。
I mean, I thought he had killed you.
我是说，我以为他杀了你。
I honestly did.
老实说，我做到了。
And so did you go and tell your mom?
那你去告诉你妈妈了吗？
Like, what did your mom make of it?
比如，你妈妈对此有何看法？
She had an explanation for exactly what was happening.
她对到底发生了什么有一个解释。
The frequency of vibration of these tools is raised so high that they simply become energy and light.
这些工具的振动频率如此之高，以至于它们变成了能量和光。
Material is transmuted literally into light.
物质实际上转化为光。
And then, as the instrument withdraws the tool, he releases that energy thrust into it and it turns back into the metal that it was.
然后，当仪器收回工具时，他释放了推入其中的能量，它又变回了原来的金属。
Then I had talked to a couple doctors and it turns out there's a cavity behind the nose and it goes back a long way.
然后我和几位医生谈过，结果发现鼻子后面有一个空洞，而且可以追溯到很久以前。
Right.
正确的。
And your brain's surround by bone, so there's no way you can harm it or help it, for that matter, by sticking something up your nose.
而且你的大脑被骨头包围着，所以你不可能通过把东西塞进鼻子来伤害它或帮助它。
So really, what Joao did, in the end, isn't proof of miracles, but proof of sinus cavities.
事实上，若昂所做的最终并不是奇迹的证明，而是窦洞的证明。
Some day I'm not good, some day I'm very good.
有一天我不好，有一天我很好。
It's with ups and downs.
它有起有落。
That's it.
就是这样。
There's this couple, Tatiana and Ed.
有这对夫妇，塔蒂亚娜和艾德。
They were from Holland.
他们来自荷兰。
And you saw them all the time pushing their son around the Casa in a wheelchair, Alexander.
你总是看到他们推着坐在轮椅上的儿子亚历山大在卡萨周围走来走去。
He had muscular dystrophy.
他患有肌肉萎缩症。
And the doctors in Holland had said there was no cure, like nothing that could be done for him.
荷兰的医生说没有办法治愈他，就像无能为力。
Here's Tatiana.
这是塔蒂亚娜。
You know what?
你知道吗？
The worst in this illness is that you feel helpless.
这种病最糟糕的是你感到无助。
You feel so very helpless.
你感到非常无助。
You know that this boy will die little by little every day in front of your eyes, and you can't do anything.
你知道这个小子每天都会一点点的死在你的眼前，而你却无能为力。
It makes you furious.
它让你愤怒。
From time to time, you're furious.
有时，你会很生气。
You're saying, why?
你说，为什么？
Well, I want to do something about that.
嗯，我想为此做点什么。
I can't just watch it happening like that.
我不能眼睁睁地看着事情就这样发生。
This is the only, our chance, and the last one.
这是我们唯一的机会，也是最后的机会。
Tatiana hadn't believed in any of this stuff before Alexander got sick.
在亚历山大生病之前，塔蒂亚娜根本不相信这些东西。
But her and Ed were willing to try anything.
但她和埃德愿意尝试任何事情。
The doctors had told them that the muscles would just deteriorate until, at age 18 or so, your heart just can no longer even beat, and he'd die.
医生告诉他们，肌肉只会恶化，直到 18 岁左右，心脏不再跳动，他就会死亡。
This is Alexander.
这是亚历山大.
He's 10.
他10岁了。
Well, the entities, they told us positive concentration.
嗯，实体，他们告诉我们积极的专注。
So we're working on that.
所以我们正在努力解决这个问题。
We're doing our best.
我们正在尽力而为。
What's that?
那是什么？
Alexander We're doing our best.
亚历山大 我们正在尽力而为。
Have they told you that you will be healed?
他们有没有告诉过你，你会被治愈？
Yes, they said a couple of times, he will walk.
是的，他们说过几次，他会走路。
And then he said another time, you will walk very soon.
然后他又说，你很快就能走路了。
What soon is for the entities, we don't know.
对于这些实体来说，很快会发生什么，我们不知道。
To me, when I meet people like this, hoping for a miracle, it's really the only choice you have.
对我来说，当我遇到这样的人，希望出现奇迹，这真的是你唯一的选择。
It seems completely sane to me.
对我来说这似乎完全正常。
It's the logical choice.
这是合乎逻辑的选择。
One night, one of the posadas hired an accordion player and had a little dance.
一天晚上，一位波萨达雇了一名手风琴演奏者，举办了一场小型舞会。
And everyone was there.
每个人都在那里。
Maggie, she's blind, and she's dancing with Dennis.
玛吉，她是盲人，但她正在和丹尼斯跳舞。
Gregor, who uses a walker at home, but he gets up and twirls for a second with Cynthia.
格雷戈尔在家中使用助行器，但他站起来和辛西娅一起旋转了一秒钟。
Then he topples over again.
然后他又倒下了。
I mean, everyone who's here, they are so joyful just being together and having hope.
我的意思是，这里的每个人，只要在一起并充满希望，他们就感到非常高兴。
And whether or not you believe in the spirits and everything, it just seems like it's good for you.
无论你是否相信灵魂和一切，它似乎对你都有好处。
It improves your health to be in a beautiful place.
身处美丽的地方可以改善您的健康。
There was 25 people in my mom's group.
我妈妈的小组有 25 人。
No one was cured, but everyone was glad that they'd been there.
没有人被治愈，但每个人都很高兴他们来过那里。
Everybody, that is, but you?
所有人，但你呢？
Davy Rothbart Right.
戴维·罗斯巴特 对。
It wasn't quite enough for me.
这对我来说还不够。
I mean, my mom still's deaf, my skin's still messed up, and Joao told both of us we needed to come back for more visits.
我的意思是，我妈妈仍然是聋子，我的皮肤仍然很糟糕，若奥告诉我们俩我们需要回来进行更多的探访。
And the worst thing was, my mom and I, we were not seeing eye to eye.
最糟糕的是，我和我妈妈的意见不一致。
The thing is, can you open your heart to the possibility that this is real, and that in three or four years you could be healed if you do what you need to do?
问题是，你能否敞开心扉接受这样的可能性：这是真实的，如果你做你需要做的事情，三四年后你就可以被治愈？
Do you know what I mean?
你知道我的意思吗？
Kind of, but I just think you and I see the world differently.
有点，但我只是认为你和我对世界的看法不同。
We probably do.
我们可能会这样做。
We're two different people.
我们是两个不同的人。
I used to see the world the way you do and I've learned some things by banging my head against the wall and then stopping because I realized it wasn't getting me anywhere.
我曾经以你们的方式看待世界，通过用头撞墙然后停下来，我学到了一些东西，因为我意识到这对我没有任何帮助。
I'm not banging my head.
我不会敲头。
I don't think there is a master plan.
我认为没有总体规划。
I don't think there is a reason for everything.
我不认为一切都有理由。
I think there are accidents and coincidences.
我觉得这里面有偶然，也有巧合。
I don't.
我不知道。
And I'm not going to argue that one with you.
我不会与你争论这个问题。
I don't know, Davy.
我不知道，戴维。
I would hope that you can just say, let's see what happens.
我希望你能说，让我们看看会发生什么。
I don't want to let you down, but I don't think I'm going to come back here unless it's to visit you because you've moved here or something.
我不想让你失望，但我不认为我会回到这里，除非是因为你搬到这里或者其他什么原因来拜访你。
You don't think you would come back even though he says he can cure you?
即使他说他能治好你，你也不认为你会回来吗？
That's up to you.
这取决于你。
That's entirely up to you.
这完全取决于你。
That's hard for me to understand why.
我很难理解为什么。
I don't really believe in it.
我不太相信它。
Davy Rothbart That was the first time I had ever told her that, and maybe realized it myself.
戴维·罗斯巴特 这是我第一次告诉她这一点，也许我自己也意识到了这一点。
I don't know what that means exactly for me and my mom.
我不知道这对我和我妈妈到底意味着什么。
You mean, for the two of you who are so close to say, we disagree on something that's so fundamental and such a big part of her life?
你的意思是，对于你们两个如此亲密的人来说，我们在她生活中如此重要且如此重要的事情上存在分歧？
Right, because it is everything to her.
是的，因为这对她来说就是一切。
It's been a couple months since we got back, and she says that she's experiencing some changes.
我们回来已经几个月了，她说她正在经历一些变化。
And other people from the group, Maggie, who was blind is saying she's beginning to see a little bit.
小组中的其他人玛吉（Maggie）是盲人，她说她开始能看到一点了。
For my mom, it's the same thing.
对于我妈妈来说，也是一样的。
She says she can feel her inner ears.
她说她能感觉到她的内耳。
She can feel changes, shifts, vibrations, and she thinks it's the beginning of hearing.
她能感觉到变化、转变、振动，她认为这是听觉的开始。
I can feel my voice going up and down.
我能感觉到我的声音在上下起伏。
Suddenly, I have some sense of where the notes are.
突然，我知道了笔记在哪里。
It's completely different.
这是完全不同的。
Do you hear the difference?
你听到区别了吗？
Barbara It's like hearing.
芭芭拉 这就像听觉。
It's just vibration.
这只是振动。
I'm hearing it.
我听到了。
I've got to get the tunes, the notes.
我必须得到曲调和音符。
[SINGING] Amazing grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a soul like me.
[歌唱] 奇妙的恩典，多么甜美的声音，拯救了像我这样的灵魂。
[END SINGING]
[演唱结束]
Am I way off?
我还差得远吗？
Am I better than I was before?
我比以前更好了吗？
It sounded beautiful to me.
这对我来说听起来很美。
Ira Glass Davy Rothbart is about to head out on a 126-city tour for his new book of excerpts from Found magazine, the magazine he created.
艾拉·格拉斯·戴维·罗斯巴特 (Ira Glass Davy Rothbart) 即将踏上 126 个城市的巡演之旅，为他创作的《Found》杂志摘录新书。
Details are at foundmagazine.com.
详情请见foundmagazine.com。
[MUSIC - "AMAZING GRACE" BY DESTINY'S CHILD FEATURING MISSY ELLIOT]
[音乐 - 由命运之子与 Missy Elliot 合作的《奇异恩典》]
Coming up, summoning the mysterious entities known as the Food and Drug Administration.
即将到来，召唤被称为食品和药物管理局的神秘实体。
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life , I'm Ira Glass.
这就是美国生活，我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose some theme, bring you a variety of different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，每周我们的节目都会选择一些主题，为您带来关于该主题的各种不同类型的故事。
Today's program, Miracle Cures.
今天的节目，奇迹疗法。
Stories of kids doing whatever they think it might take, doing the impossible to help their parents get cured.
孩子们不惜一切代价、完成不可能的事情来帮助父母治愈的故事。
We've arrived at Act Two of our program.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act Two is this.
第二幕是这样的。
Julia Whitty's dad had cancer, and he had used up all the available kinds of treatment.
朱莉娅·惠蒂的父亲患有癌症，他已经用尽了所有可用的治疗方法。
He probably just had a few months left to live.
他可能只剩下几个月的生命了。
But there was one hope for him, one last drug that might work.
但他还有一线希望，最后一种可能有效的药物。
And the problem was, a year of this drug would cost him $47,000, which his insurance couldn't cover and which he could not afford.
问题是，这种药一年要花费他 47,000 美元，他的保险无法承保，他也负担不起。
So Julia Whitty, she just wrote a magazine article about this experience.
朱莉娅·惠蒂（Julia Whitty）刚刚写了一篇关于这次经历的杂志文章。
She said that she found when she tried to find this drug for him, she found that most of the ways she could get the drug for less were not exactly legal.
她说，当她试图为他找到这种药物时，她发现大多数能以较低价格获得这种药物的方法并不完全合法。
I absolutely was willing to break the law and I can't imagine too many people who wouldn't be, in all honesty.
我绝对愿意违法，老实说，我无法想象有多少人不愿意这样做。
If you clearly saw there was a source for what you needed, and if you had to break the law a little bit to cross over the line to go there and get it, I think most people would do that for somebody that they loved.
如果你清楚地看到你需要的东西有一个来源，并且如果你必须稍微违反法律才能跨越界限去那里获得它，我想大多数人都会为他们所爱的人这样做。
So that was where I began to look around and see if there was some other way we could get this drug.
于是我开始四处寻找，看看是否有其他方法可以获得这种药物。
So you started looking around, what'd you find?
于是你开始环顾四周，你发现了什么？
I went on the internet, as most people would in this day and age, I just started surfing around.
我上网了，就像当今时代的大多数人一样，我刚刚开始上网。
And I did find-- that's where I first came in contact with people who might have had a loved one who died and had leftover prescription that they would sometimes give away or sell.
我确实发现——那就是我第一次接触到那些可能有亲人去世的人，他们有时会赠送或出售剩余的处方药。
But obviously, we needed a steady, reliable, long-term dose of this stuff.
但显然，我们需要稳定、可靠、长期的剂量。
And I eventually was able to locate a country that manufactured this drug for completely different diseases.
我最终找到了一个为完全不同的疾病生产这种药物的国家。
And they were selling it for about $1,200 a year, which obviously started to sound really cheap.
他们每年的售价约为 1,200 美元，这显然听起来非常便宜。
Exactly.
确切地。
Ira Glass So you go, you fly to some foreign country, you get some doctor there, I guess, to prescribe the drug?
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 那么，你飞到某个外国，我想你会在那里找到一些医生来开药？
Right, which is not difficult to do in other countries.
是的，这在其他国家并不难做到。
It's pretty much not difficult to do in any country if you're a traveler.
如果您是旅行者，那么在任何国家/地区做到这一点都不难。
Did you have to actually claim that you had a disease or did you just tell the doctor, here's my situation.
您是否必须真正声称自己患有疾病，还是只是告诉医生，这是我的情况。
I told him the truth regarding my father.
我告诉了他关于我父亲的真相。
And he was more than willing.
他非常愿意。
I think he felt good being able to help me.
我认为他能够帮助我感觉很好。
And at this point, you're not exactly sure if it's legal to bring these back?
此时，您不确定将这些带回来是否合法？
That's right.
这是正确的。
Ira Glass So what do you do?
艾拉·格拉斯 那么你要做什么？
Well, I had thought about it in advance, because I travel in my adult life and I've spent a lot of time in third world countries and stuff.
嗯，我事先就考虑过这个问题，因为我成年后经常旅行，并且在第三世界国家和其他地方度过了很多时间。
And I usually travel with a pretty hefty medical arsenal.
我旅行时通常会携带相当庞大的医疗装备。
You know, I'd put multiple pills in one bottle.
你知道，我会把多种药片装在一个瓶子里。
So I thought, well, I'm just going to go there.
所以我想，好吧，我就去那里吧。
However they come, I'm going to take them out of that packaging and put them in empty prescription bottles that I have with other prescription names on them.
不管它们来了，我都会把它们从包装中取出，放入我有的空处方瓶中，上面有其他处方名称。
And in all my years of traveling, I've never come back into the US and had anybody open my bottles.
在我旅行的这些年里，我从来没有回到美国并让任何人打开过我的瓶子。
So I really didn't think I was going to have trouble with this.
所以我真的不认为我会遇到麻烦。
And so this is like, dozens of pills or hundreds of pills?
那么这就像是几十粒还是几百粒？
It was somewhere between two-, three-, or four-month supply, enough to sort of start my father on it, do a set of scans and see whether or not it was working.
它的供应量介于两个月、三个月或四个月之间，足以让我父亲开始使用它，进行一组扫描，看看它是否有效。
So you have hundreds of pills, what was the moment like when you finally were coming back into the country?
那么你有数百粒药片，当你终于回到这个国家的那一刻是什么样的？
Well, you definitely get that sweaty palms thing going.
好吧，你肯定会感到手心出汗。
You wonder, what are they looking for?
你想知道，他们在寻找什么？
What expression on your face?
你脸上什么表情？
You know you're doing something that could be wrong.
你知道你正在做一些可能是错误的事情。
And what do we know about how many people are actually going overseas and bringing back drugs?
我们对有多少人实际上去海外带回毒品了解多少？
I know that their estimates right now are that between one and two million Americans are getting drugs one way or another from Canada alone.
我知道他们目前的估计是，仅从加拿大就有一到两百万美国人以这种或那种方式获取毒品。
In my personal experience, it was probably always illegal, but it wasn't enforced.
根据我个人的经验，这可能总是非法的，但并没有得到执行。
For whatever reason, it began to be enforced around December of 2002.
不管出于什么原因，它于 2002 年 12 月左右开始执行。
And I was told by the FDA that they were cracking down at that point.
FDA 告诉我，他们当时正在严厉打击。
Do you know what the penalty would have been if you'd been caught?
你知道如果你被抓到会受到什么惩罚吗？
I don't know, but I remember being so angry at the time that I was perfectly prepared to go to jail.
我不知道，但我记得当时我非常生气，完全做好了进监狱的准备。
Not that I want to go to jail, but I was just feeling this was an absurd way to have to live.
并不是说我想进监狱，但我只是觉得这是一种荒谬的生活方式。
And it was ridiculous, in light of the fact that this drug could be had more inexpensively and why my father couldn't have access to it.
这很荒谬，因为这种药物可以更便宜地获得，而我父亲却无法获得它。
I considered it immoral.
我认为这是不道德的。
Now, at some point you learned that you might be able to simply order the drug from, what was it, an online manufacturer?
现在，在某个时刻，您了解到您可以简单地从在线制造商那里订购药物？
Like an online pharmacy?
比如网上药店？
Not an online pharmacy.
不是网上药店。
That would have been easy.
那本来很容易。
It was the actual manufacturer in this country overseas.
它是海外这个国家的实际制造商。
And they claimed they were already doing it for other patients in the United States.
他们声称他们已经在为美国的其他患者做这件事。
And they told me it would just sail through US customs and that did not turn out to be the case.
他们告诉我它只会通过美国海关，但事实并非如此。
It gets held up in US customs in Cincinnati and I began a long series of conversations with FDA officials, sort of case officers.
它被滞留在辛辛那提的美国海关，我开始与 FDA 官员（案件官员）进行一系列长时间的对话。
And they tell me, it's illegal.
他们告诉我，这是非法的。
You can't bring this in.
你不能把这个带进来。
And the reason for that law is because they can't vouch for the quality of the drugs?
制定该法律的原因是因为他们无法保证药品的质量？
They haven't tested those drugs?
他们没有测试过这些药物吗？
Exactly right.
完全正确。
They haven't tested those drugs.
他们还没有测试过这些药物。
That's what they say.
他们就是这么说的。
We haven't tested those drugs, we don't know if they'll be good for you or not.
我们还没有测试过这些药物，我们不知道它们是否对您有好处。
But in a way, that's a legitimate thing.
但在某种程度上，这是合法的事情。
Like.
喜欢。
In a way, you'd want the government to actually do that, to say, we have no idea if this manufacturer's reputable and the drug's OK.
在某种程度上，你希望政府真正做到这一点，也就是说，我们不知道这家制造商是否有信誉以及该药物是否合格。
Well, I would argue that I have the right to take that chance myself.
好吧，我认为我自己也有权抓住这个机会。
We're just simply not allowed to do this.
我们只是不被允许这样做。
Now, we can bring in foreign-made food and foreign-made clothes and everything else, but we're not allowed to bring in foreign-made drugs because they are untested supposedly.
现在，我们可以引进外国制造的食品、外国制造的衣服和其他一切，但我们不可以引进外国制造的药品，因为它们据说未经检验。
There's a passage in your article where you say, "I can go to Europe and buy their wine for less, go to Asia and buy their clothes for less.
你的文章中有一段话，你说：“我可以去欧洲花更少的钱买他们的酒，去亚洲花更少的钱买他们的衣服。
American companies can buy their raw materials for less overseas, or they can move their operations abroad in order to hire cheaper labor or management.
美国公司可以以更低的价格在海外购买原材料，或者可以将业务转移到国外以雇用更便宜的劳动力或管理人员。
But on a mind-boggling reversal of the American principle of supply and demand, I cannot purchase cheaper drugs and bring them home."
但由于美国的供需原则发生了令人难以置信的逆转，我无法购买更便宜的药品并将其带回家。”
That's right.
这是正确的。
And that's the part that, to this day, infuriates me, particularly about the new Medicare drug bill, which has expressly now, completely, clearly forbidden Americans to go overseas and bring back drugs for any reason whatsoever.
直到今天，这仍然让我感到愤怒，特别是关于新的医疗保险药品法案，该法案现在明确、完全、明确禁止美国人以任何理由前往海外并带回药品。
And so the FDA holds this stuff up.
所以 FDA 保留了这个东西。
How long do they hold it?
他们能坚持多久？
They held it for a couple of weeks.
他们保留了几周。
And for the first time, we'd cut his dose in half to try and eke it out, as the package wasn't delivered.
由于包裹没有送达，我们第一次将他的剂量减少了一半，试图勉强维持下去。
Then we cut his dose in half again.
然后我们再次将他的剂量减半。
Eventually it became clear to me that they were not going to give it to us for any reason whatsoever.
最终我清楚地意识到他们不会以任何理由把它给我们。
And in fact, they were going to destroy it.
事实上，他们打算摧毁它。
And that's when I turned to my elected officials.
就在那时，我转向我选出的官员。
I thought, well, maybe they can help me on this end.
我想，好吧，也许他们可以在这方面帮助我。
One senator, Barbara Boxer, was phenomenally helpful.
一位名叫芭芭拉·博克瑟（Barbara Boxer）的参议员非常乐于助人。
Her office went to work on it.
她的办公室开始着手处理此事。
They just dug their teeth in and they had that package sprung in about 24 hours.
他们咬紧牙关，大约 24 小时内就把包裹寄了出来。
And did you end up having to get the senator's office to intervene for you again?
最后你是否不得不让参议员办公室再次为你干预？
Yes, I did.
是的，我做到了。
Ira Glass Like, every time it would come to the border, the same place, same people?
Ira Glass 就像，每次都会来到边境，同一个地方，同样的人？
No, eventually I figured out a method with the FDA guy that they were willing to accept.
不，最终我和 FDA 的人想出了一个他们愿意接受的方法。
We had to provide these very elaborate excuses of why my father was using the foreign version versus the American version of this drug.
我们必须提供这些非常详尽的借口来解释为什么我父亲使用外国版本而不是美国版本的这种药物。
We had to sort of basically manufacture excuses.
我们基本上不得不编造借口。
Oh, I see.
我懂了。
You had to say that the American version didn't work?
你非要说美版不行吗？
Didn't work as well for my father for the following reasons, which we pretty much made up.
由于以下原因，我对父亲的工作不太好，这些原因几乎都是我们编造的。
It was pretty bogus, but they went for it.
这是相当虚假的，但他们还是这么做了。
And they did that a few times.
他们这样做了几次。
That system worked, and then it stopped working.
那个系统工作了，然后就停止工作了。
Why, what happened?
为什么，发生了什么事？
Julia Whitty At the end of 2002, we were bringing in another shipment and playing the game the way we'd learned to play it.
朱莉娅·惠蒂 (Julia Whitty) 2002 年底，我们引进了另一批货物，并按照我们学会的方式玩游戏。
And this time just couldn't get it sprung.
而这一次却无法让它弹出。
And that was when I heard that the law, not that the law had changed, but that enforcement of the law had changed.
就在那时，我听说法律发生了变化，不是法律发生了变化，而是法律的执行发生了变化。
And they were beginning to really crack down now on letting these drugs in.
他们现在开始真正严厉打击这些毒品的入境。
The FDA case officer suggested that I go to the US company that manufactured the drug and apply for patient financial assistance.
FDA案件官员建议我去生产该药物的美国公司申请患者经济援助。
Now, that's a special program which lets you say, we don't have the money to pay the $47,000, so give us a break, basically, on humanitarian grounds?
现在，这是一个特殊计划，让你说，我们没有钱支付 47,000 美元，所以基本上，基于人道主义理由，让我们休息一下？
That's right.
这是正确的。
And apparently, a lot of the pharmaceutical companies have these things, whether people know it or not, for their more expensive drugs.
显然，无论人们是否知道，许多制药公司都拥有这些东西来购买更昂贵的药物。
And we had actually applied for this at the very beginning, when my father was first prescribed this drug, and he didn't pass.
事实上，我们一开始就申请了这个，当我父亲第一次开这种药时，他没有通过。
He wasn't poor enough, they thought, so I decided we'd just lie.
他们认为他还不够穷，所以我决定撒个谎。
And I called the patient financial assistance line.
我拨打了患者经济援助热线。
They had an 800 number.
他们有一个 800 号码。
And I was trying to sort of suss them out on, like, how poor did you really have to be before they would accept you?
我试图询问他们，比如，你到底要有多穷，他们才会接受你？
And she said, well, I can't tell you that.
她说，好吧，我不能告诉你。
But she did, I think inadvertently, admit the only thing I really needed to know, which was that they don't actually check anything you say on the application.
但我无意中认为，她确实承认了我真正需要知道的唯一一件事，那就是他们实际上并没有检查你在申请表上所说的任何内容。
She told me straight out.
她直接告诉我了。
I felt like it was something, she went, oh God, I shouldn't have said that.
我觉得这很重要，她说，天哪，我不应该这么说。
And in my brain, a little bell just went off and I went, yes.
在我的脑海里，一个小铃声响起，我说，是的。
Now, a few months after your dad died-- and we should say that he didn't die of the cancer, he ended up dying of heart failure-- Congress passed the Medicare drug bill, which was designed to address exactly this problem.
现在，在你父亲去世几个月后——我们应该说他不是死于癌症，他最终死于心力衰竭——国会通过了医疗保险药物法案，该法案旨在解决这个问题。
If your dad had survived, what would this bill have done for him, which is supposed to, basically, take these expensive drugs and put them within financial reach of people?
如果你的父亲活了下来，这项法案会给他带来什么？基本上，该法案应该将这些昂贵的药物纳入人们的经济能力范围内？
Well, I ran the numbers on it and I found that he would have still had to pay over $6,000 a year.
好吧，我算了算，发现他每年仍然需要支付 6,000 多美元。
And obviously, that's a lot cheaper.
显然，这要便宜得多。
It's still not as cheap as the $1,200-a-year version you could get overseas.
它仍然不如海外版本的一年 1,200 美元便宜。
So is that good or bad, as far as you're concerned, getting it down to $6,000 to--
那么，就你而言，将其降至 6,000 美元是好是坏——
It's not good enough.
这还不够好。
It's not good enough, in my opinion, not if the drug companies are going to be able to ask $47,000, in my father's case, for a drug that all the research and development was done more than 40 years ago.
在我看来，如果制药公司能够以 47,000 美元的价格购买一种 40 多年前完成所有研发的药物，这还不够好。
If they have the right to do that, then I think we need to have something.
如果他们有权这样做，那么我认为我们需要做点什么。
If the government's going to become the biggest drug buyer on the planet, then they need to do something about enacting price controls or setting standards that they're willing to pay.
如果政府要成为地球上最大的药品购买者，那么他们需要采取一些措施来实施价格控制或制定他们愿意支付的标准。
The thing you're talking about is actually that, under the bill, the United States government would not be able to negotiate for lower prices.
你所说的实际上是，根据该法案，美国政府将无法通过谈判获得更低的价格。
They wouldn't be able to say, we're buying a huge quantity, so give us a price break?
他们不能说，我们购买的数量很大，所以给我们一个价格优惠？
Right.
正确的。
Congress expressly forbade that in the Medicare drug bill.
国会在医疗保险药品法案中明确禁止这样做。
And as you note in your article, when the government buys anything in quantity, they negotiate the price down.
正如您在文章中指出的那样，当政府大量购买任何东西时，他们会通过谈判压低价格。
That's right.
这是正确的。
That's another case, I think, where the pharmaceutical industry wrote the law.
我认为这是制药业制定法律的另一个案例。
And do you blame the drug companies for that?
你会为此责怪制药公司吗？
I blame the drug companies at getting through to our elected officials, yes.
是的，我责怪制药公司与我们民选的官员取得联系。
They're obviously phenomenally powerful, as we can see by the number of lobbyists that they employ: 600, more than one for every member of Congress.
他们显然拥有惊人的权力，从他们雇佣的游说者数量就可以看出：600 名游说者，每一位国会议员都不止一名游说者。
There's a personal lobbyist, in effect, for every member of Congress.
实际上，每位国会议员都有一位私人说客。
Julia Whitty's story about getting her dad's $47,000 prescription filled is in the issue of Mother Jones .
朱莉娅·惠蒂 (Julia Whitty) 为她父亲配药 47,000 美元的处方药的故事发表在《琼斯妈妈》杂志上。
That is on newsstands now, and it's at motherjones.com.
现在报刊亭和 motherjones.com 上都有。
Well, our program was produced today by Alex Blumberg and myself with Wendy Dorr, Diane Cook, Sarah Koenig, and Jane Golombisky, who is getting married today.
好吧，我们的节目今天由 Alex Blumberg 和我与 Wendy Dorr、Diane Cook、Sarah Koenig 以及今天即将结婚的 Jane Golombisky 一起制作。
Yes, today.
是的，今天。
We're going to have to call her Jane Feltes from now on.
从现在起我们必须叫她简·费尔特斯。
Our warmest wishes to her and to Rick.
我们向她和里克致以最热烈的祝愿。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Elizabeth Meister runs our website.
伊丽莎白·梅斯特 (Elizabeth Meister) 负责运营我们的网站。
Production help from Todd Bachmann and Kelsey Dilts.
托德·巴赫曼 (Todd Bachmann) 和凯尔西·迪尔茨 (Kelsey Dilts) 为制作提供帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our website, www.thisamericanlife.org, where you can listen to our programs for free.
[致谢] 我们的网站 www.thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中免费收听我们的节目。
Or, if you care, you can buy CDs of them now.
或者，如果您关心的话，您现在就可以购买它们的 CD。
Well, you know, you can download audio of our show at audible.com/thisamericanlife, where they have public radio programs, bestselling books, even the New York Times , all at audible.com.
好吧，您知道，您可以在 audible.com/thisamericanlife 下载我们节目的音频，那里有公共广播节目、畅销书，甚至纽约时报，所有这些都在 audible.com 上。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight by Torey Malatia.
[资金来源] WBEZ 管理由 Torey Malatia 监督。
He came into the studio this week to watch us do the radio show.
这周他来到演播室看我们做广播节目。
His review?
他的评论？
It was horrifying.
太可怕了。
It was the most upsetting thing I've ever seen.
这是我见过的最令人沮丧的事情。
I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of this American life.
我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多关于美国生活的故事。
The room kind of started swirling around me and everything got really silent.
房间开始在我周围旋转，一切都变得非常安静。
You know, there's sort of, like, a roar fills your ears.
你知道，你的耳朵里充满了咆哮声。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。