261: The Sanctity of Marriage - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #261 | April 1, 2005 261: The Sanctity of Marriage Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 261 集 | 2005 年 4 月 1 日 261：婚姻的神圣性 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Kassie Hannah OK, we are ready to begin.
序言 Kassie Hannah 好的，我们准备开始了。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life , distributed by Public Radio International.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
When you guys are ready, we can start.
当你们准备好后，我们就可以开始了。
OK, today we will be selecting our bride and our groom for the mock wedding.
好的，今天我们将选择我们的新娘和新郎参加模拟婚礼。
Ms. Hannah's Adult Living class, at Rock Island High School, near the Illinois-Iowa border, has as part of its curriculum a mock wedding.
汉娜女士在伊利诺伊州和爱荷华州边境附近的罗克岛高中的成人生活课程中，有一场模拟婚礼作为其课程的一部分。
These happen in high schools all over the country.
这些事情发生在全国各地的高中。
And if you're from a place where they have them, they don't seem like a big deal at all.
如果你来自一个有它们的地方，它们看起来根本不是什么大不了的事。
Today, before Ms. Hannah's class can choose decorations and bridesmaids outfits, before they talk to florists and a caterer, they have to choose a bride and a groom.
今天，在汉娜女士的班级选择装饰品和伴娘服装之前，在与花店和餐饮承办商交谈之前，他们必须选择新娘和新郎。
And the money-on favorite for groom is [?
新郎最喜欢的金钱是[？
DeAndrew.
德安德鲁.
?]
？]
Because he's just the most outgoing person, the person that's actually one of the guys-- because we have very few guys-- one of the guys that are actually into it, you know?
因为他只是最外向的人，实际上是其中之一 - 因为我们只有很少的人 - 真正热衷于此的人之一，你知道吗？
I think [?
我认为 [？
DeAndrew ?] will get the groom.
德安德鲁？]会得到新郎。
Out of the boys, it's either me or [?
男孩们中，要么是我，要么是[？
DeAndrew.
德安德鲁.
?]
？]
This is Stacia.
这是斯塔西亚。
Stacia I don't know.
斯塔西娅 我不知道。
I think more of the kids in the class will vote more towards [?
我认为班上更多的孩子会投票给[？
DeAndrew, ?] because he's the class clown.
德安德鲁，？]因为他是班上的小丑。
He makes everybody laugh and everything.
他让每个人都开怀大笑。
As for who will be the bride, [?
至于谁会成为新娘，[？
Jackie ?] says the girls talked about it during gym.
杰基？]说女孩们在健身房里谈论过这件事。
?] There's not that much competition, because a lot of girls don't know if they want to be it.
？] 竞争并不激烈，因为很多女孩不知道自己是否想成为这样的人。
I think it's three girls.
我认为是三个女孩。
Me, and Heather, and [?
我、希瑟和[？
Keena.
基娜。
?] So we were the only three that really said we want to to be it.
？]所以我们是唯一三个真正表示我们想成为它的人。
And I know a couple people that have said that they didn't want to be in it.
我知道有几个人说过他们不想参与其中。
I don't think anybody else wants to do it.
我认为没有人愿意这样做。
Ms. Hannah uses the overhead projector to walk the class through a budget for the wedding, which is $250, by the way, that the kids will have to raise themselves.
汉娜女士使用高射投影仪向全班同学介绍了婚礼的预算，顺便说一下，婚礼预算为 250 美元，孩子们需要自己养活。
Then she takes nominations.
然后她接受提名。
Everybody votes on little slips of paper that she hands out.
每个人都对她分发的小纸条进行投票。
AJ is sent to the chalkboard to tote the results as Ms. Hannah counts the ballots in a style that is less like the Illinois election commission and more like Jeff Probst from Survivor .
汉娜女士以一种不太像伊利诺伊州选举委员会的方式计票，而更像《幸存者》中的杰夫·普罗布斯特，AJ 被派到黑板上去报告结果。
She basically pulls out each ballot, unfolds it, and reads it.
她基本上会拿出每张选票，展开并阅读。
OK, here we go.
好的，我们开始吧。
[?
[？
DeAndrew.
德安德鲁.
?] AJ.
？] AJ。
AJ.
阿杰。
Kevin.
凯文.
AJ.
阿杰。
Ooh, look at AJ in the lead.
哦，看看领先的 AJ。
Kassie Hannah AJ.
卡西·汉娜·AJ.
Oh, my God.
我的天啊。
Ira Glass Even AJ looks surprised.
艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 就连 AJ 也显得很惊讶。
But these early returns don't hold up, and in the end it is the predicted favorite, [?
但这些早期回报并没有持续下去，最终它成为了预测的最爱，[？
DeAndrew ?], who will be mock-marrying [?
德安德鲁？]，谁会假结婚[？
Jackie.
杰基.
?] When the results are announced, [?
？]当结果公布时，[？
DeAndrew, ?] who admits that he used to have a little thing for [?
德安德鲁，？]谁承认他曾经有过一些小事[？
Jackie, ?] jumps up and sits next to her.
杰基，？]跳起来坐在她旁边。
?] Yeah, I'm getting married to [?
？] 是的，我要和[？
Jackie ?] [?
杰基？] [？
Thompson.
汤普森.
?] I'm talking six, seven, nine kids.
？] 我说的是六个、七个、九个孩子。
Of the 11 juniors and seniors who showed up for class today, one has a baby and one lives with a boyfriend.
今天来上课的 11 名高三和高年级学生中，一名有孩子，一名与男友同住。
She's engaged.
她订婚了。
I asked Ms. Hannah if the idea of this curriculum is to encourage kids to get married.
我问汉娜女士，这门课程的目的是否是鼓励孩子结婚。
And to my surprise, she says no. She's just showing them how, the same way this class shows them how to rent an apartment, or buy a used car.
令我惊讶的是，她拒绝了。她只是向他们展示如何操作，就像本课程向他们展示如何租用公寓或购买二手车一样。
Even here in small-town Illinois hours from the big city, even the teacher who teaches marriage has complicated feelings about marriage itself.
即使在距离大城市只有几小时路程的伊利诺伊州小镇，即使是教授婚姻的老师也对婚姻本身有着复杂的感情。
The students could not believe that I wasn't married when they found out I was not married.
当学生们发现我没有结婚时，他们不敢相信我没有结婚。
Because of all the joy and the fulfilling things that has happened to me since my divorce, I have truly experienced life.
因为离婚后发生在我身上的所有快乐和充实的事情，我真正体验到了生活。
And because it has been such a grand experience being on the single side of life, I can honestly tell students that, yes, you can be single and you can be happy.
因为单身生活真是一次伟大的经历，我可以诚实地告诉学生，是的，你可以单身，你可以快乐。
You can be married and you can be happy.
你可以结婚，你可以幸福。
Some of us will be happy with the institution of marriage and some of us will not.
我们中的一些人会对婚姻制度感到满意，而另一些人则不会。
What it means to be married is up in the air right now, and not just because people are fighting about whether gays should be able to marry.
婚姻意味着什么现在还悬而未决，不仅仅是因为人们在争论同性恋是否应该结婚。
The number of women getting married has dropped a third since 1970.
自 1970 年以来，结婚的女性人数减少了三分之一。
People are getting married at a later age than ever before in this country.
在这个国家，人们结婚的年龄比以往任何时候都晚。
Fewer households have children, and a fourth of all children are raised by just one parent.
有孩子的家庭越来越少，四分之一的孩子由单亲抚养。
The number of couples living together without marrying is 10 times what it was in 1960, over 4.5 million people.
未结婚而同居的夫妇数量是 1960 年的 10 倍，超过 450 万人。
So today on our radio show, a look at what it really means to be married today.
所以今天在我们的广播节目中，看看今天结婚的真正含义。
Our program today, in three acts:
我们今天的节目分为三幕：
Act One, What Really Happens in Marriages.
第一幕，婚姻中真正发生的事情。
Like the 15th century explorers and mapmakers, there is a generation of scientists mapping out what happens in marriages, finding out stuff that people did not know about before.
就像 15 世纪的探险家和地图绘制者一样，一代科学家正在绘制婚姻中发生的事情，发现人们以前不知道的东西。
Act Two, The Defense of Marriage Act.
第二幕，《婚姻保护法》。
Gay marriage can hurt straight marriage.
同性婚姻会伤害异性婚姻。
One man explains how.
一名男子解释了如何做到这一点。
Act Three, I Want to Be a Statistic.
第三幕，我想成为一个统计数据。
Starlee Kine gets answers about her parents' marriage from her dad after a lifetime of mystery.
斯塔莉·凯恩在经历了一生的神秘之后，从她父亲那里得到了关于她父母婚姻的答案。
That is three, yes, three big acts, each one designed to make your family happier.
这是三项，是的，三项重大举措，每一项都是为了让您的家庭更幸福。
Plus we have a real wedding band, the Doug Lawrence Orchestra, playing us wedding standards all this hour.
另外，我们还有一支真正的婚礼乐队，Doug Lawrence Orchestra，整个小时都在为我们演奏婚礼标准音乐。
Hit it, boys.
打吧，孩子们。
[MUSIC - "THE WAY YOU LOOK TONIGHT," THE DOUG LAWRENCE ORCHESTRA]
[音乐 - “你今晚的样子”，道格·劳伦斯管弦乐团]
Act One, What Really Happens in Marriage.
第一幕，婚姻中真正发生的事情。
OK, here's something that, when you first hear about it, does not sound like it can possibly be true.
好吧，当你第一次听到这个消息时，你可能会觉得它不太可能是真的。
So let me preface everything you're about to hear by saying that the guy that you're about to hear from is not some isolated crank, but part of a movement, that he and his colleagues, for decades, have been scoring million-dollar grants from the National Institutes of Mental Health.
因此，让我为你们即将听到的一切做序言，你们即将听到的这个人不是某个孤立的怪人，而是一场运动的一部分，几十年来，他和他的同事们一直从美国国立心理健康研究所获得数百万美元的资助。
They publish their findings in mainstream scientific journals.
他们在主流科学期刊上发表了他们的发现。
Other scientists have replicated their findings.
其他科学家也复制了他们的发现。
They've essentially created a radically different and eminently helpful way of understanding marriage.
他们本质上创造了一种完全不同且非常有帮助的理解婚姻的方式。
OK, here's what we're talking about.
好的，这就是我们正在讨论的内容。
Dr. John Gottman takes couples, wires them up to devices that monitor their breathing and their heartbeats, sits them in front of video cameras, and then asks them to talk about something that they disagree about.
约翰·戈特曼博士将夫妻俩连接到监测呼吸和心跳的设备上，让他们坐在摄像机前，然后要求他们谈论一些他们不同意的事情。
From a 15-minute videotape of a couple talking about an area of disagreement, we have an 85% probability of predicting what's going to happen to them in the next four years.
从一对夫妇谈论某个分歧领域的 15 分钟录像中，我们有 85% 的概率预测他们在未来四年内会发生什么。
If they'll still be together or not.
他们是否还会在一起。
And also, if they're together, whether they'll be happy or miserable.
而且，如果他们在一起，他们会幸福还是痛苦。
But that's not all.
但这还不是全部。
If he spends another hour or so, and asks them to talk about how they met, what kinds of things they share--
如果他再花一个小时左右，让他们谈谈他们是如何认识的，他们分享了哪些事情——
Then it goes up to 94%.
然后它会上升到94%。
Ira Glass I should be clear.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）我应该清楚。
He doesn't offer this as a service.
他不提供此服务。
You can't go to John Gottman, sit with your spouse for a 15-minute videotape, and then have him declare to you on the spot, this will be your marital fate.
你不能去找约翰·戈特曼，和你的配偶坐在一起拍15分钟的录像，然后让他当场向你宣告，这将是你的婚姻命运。
No. When he says that he can predict, he means it in a more sciencey way.
不。当他说他可以预测时，他的意思是更科学的。
What he does is he videotapes couples, follows their marriages for years, and then once he sees who stays together and who splits up, he goes back and tries to figure out what in the videos might have predicted that.
他所做的就是给情侣录像，跟踪他们的婚姻多年，然后一旦他看到谁在一起、谁分手，他就会回过头来试图找出视频中可能预测到的内容。
And he has found a whole taxonomy of things that doomed couples do that happy couples don't.
他还发现了一套完整的分类法，其中列出了注定失败的夫妇会做而幸福的夫妇不会做的事情。
I don't know about you, but when I heard about this, I wanted to understand exactly what Gottman was seeing on those videotapes.
我不了解你，但当我听说这件事时，我想确切地了解戈特曼在那些录像带上看到了什么。
And so I went out to visit him in Seattle, to sit with him and watch some of America's unfunniest home videos.
所以我去西雅图拜访了他，和他坐在一起观看了一些美国最无趣的家庭视频。
[INTERPOSING VOICES] You might think it would be easy to spot which couples in these videos are heading down the tubes.
[插入声音] 您可能认为很容易发现这些视频中的哪些情侣正在走上管道。
But in a study where Gottman's videos were shown to clergymen, and therapists, and other people who you would assume would be able to identify this kind of thing, they were unable to predict better than random chance which couples eventually divorced.
但在一项研究中，戈特曼的视频被展示给牧师、治疗师以及其他你认为能够识别这种事情的人，他们无法比随机机会更好地预测哪些夫妇最终离婚。
Take this couple in their early 20s, talking about their finances.
以这对 20 岁出头的夫妇为例，谈论他们的财务状况。
--a month at the most and at the least.
——最多一个月，最少一个月。
Estimate it.
估计一下吧
Do the math.
算一下。
You don't even sit down and do that.
你甚至不坐下来这样做。
You don't even sit down and do it either.
你甚至不坐下来去做。
I don't have to.
我不需要。
I bring home the money.
我把钱带回家。
You told me you [UNINTELLIGIBLE PHRASE] manage it.
你告诉我你[难以理解的短语]管理它。
Well, yeah, to that [UNINTELLIGIBLE PHRASE] because I've been asking you to do that.
嗯，是的，对于那个[难以理解的短语]，因为我一直要求你这样做。
Because, [UNINTELLIGIBLE], how can I do it until I-- I need to get the first bill to know what I'm working with.
因为，[难以理解]，我该怎么做，直到我——我需要拿到第一份账单才能知道我正在做什么。
Watching them, to me, it looks pretty bad.
看着他们，对我来说，看起来很糟糕。
They just don't let up.
他们就是不松懈。
Well, I don't see this as a negative interaction.
嗯，我不认为这是一种消极的互动。
A lot of people might.
很多人可能会。
But we don't see our predictors of divorce here.
但我们在这里看不到离婚的预测因素。
We don't see contempt.
我们没有看到蔑视。
We don't see him turning away, stonewalling, which is a particular guy thing to do.
我们没有看到他转身走开、阻挠，这是一个特殊的男人才会做的事情。
We don't see her insulting him.
我们没有看到她侮辱他。
It could be a lot warmer, it could be a lot more supportive, but they've got to work this out.
天气可能会更温暖，也可能会更有支持性，但他们必须解决这个问题。
Newlyweds have a lot of fights.
新婚夫妇经常吵架。
And this is respectful.
这是尊重。
You just know what you know, and you block out everything you hear.
你只知道你所知道的，并且屏蔽掉你听到的一切。
You just tell me the same thing.
你只是告诉我同样的事情。
Yeah.
是的。
That's how I feel.
我就是这样的感觉。
I feel like you do that.
我感觉你就是这么做的。
I feel like I keep telling you, and you only want to hear what you want to hear.
我觉得我一直在告诉你，而你只想听你想听的。
You don't hear the good stuff, like I'm telling you--
你听不到好话，就像我告诉你的那样——
The way Dr. Gottman turns what look like the most intimate, meandering conversations into hard data that can be analyzed is really pretty simple.
戈特曼博士将看似最亲密、最曲折的对话转化为可分析的硬数据的方法确实非常简单。
After the video is shot, two women in a tiny room down the hall from Dr. Gottman score the thing moment by moment on side-by-side computers.
视频拍摄完成后，戈特曼博士走廊尽头的一间小房间里，两名女性并排的电脑上一刻不停地记录着这段视频。
Every time the husband or the wife on the video shows anger, sadness, defensiveness, disgust, humor, neutrality-- any of 20 different things-- it gets coded in the computer alongside data of their heart rate and their breathing.
每当视频中的丈夫或妻子表现出愤怒、悲伤、防御、厌恶、幽默、中立等 20 种不同的情绪中的任何一种时，它就会与他们的心率和呼吸数据一起被编码到计算机中。
These people have so much affect going on.
这些人对事情的影响如此之大。
It's really hard, because you have to make-- you're watching it in real time.
这真的很难，因为你必须实时观看。
You have to make your decision really fast.
你必须非常快地做出决定。
Is this person being contemptuous?
这个人是在蔑视人吗？
Or wait, was that criticism?
或者等等，这是批评吗？
Elizabeth Schoettle and Katherine Schwartz spent months in training, learning specific facial expressions, particular kinds of behavior, before they became reliable-- reliable meaning in this case that their codes match those of fully-trained people.
伊丽莎白·肖特尔和凯瑟琳·施瓦茨花了几个月的时间进行训练，学习特定的面部表情和特定的行为，然后才变得可靠——在这种情况下，可靠的意思是他们的代码与经过充分训练的人的代码相匹配。
I asked them to name the codes that they were punching in out loud as they scored one of the videos.
我要求他们说出在为其中一个视频评分时大声输入的代码。
So I went to contempt, and then I went to neutral.
所以我走向蔑视，然后走向中立。
You move back and forth all the time.
你一直在来回移动。
Now, if you look at his eyes, he's on tension.
现在，如果你看他的眼睛，他很紧张。
He finished one of her sentences and sort of helped her along, which would be a high validation.
他完成了她的一句话，并在某种程度上帮助了她，这将是一种高度的认可。
Every momentary interaction-- affection, anger, stonewalling, contempt-- gets assigned a number, one to four for the good ones, negative one to negative four for the bad ones.
每一个瞬间的互动——喜爱、愤怒、阻挠、蔑视——都会被分配一个数字，一到四代表好的，负面的一到负面的四代表坏的。
So if they do a contempt, they get a minus four.
因此，如果他们做出蔑视行为，他们就会得到负四分。
A disgust, the get a minus four.
厌恶，得负四分。
And the computer just keeps track of when they happen and how long they last.
计算机只是记录它们发生的时间和持续的时间。
So let's watch this conversation.
那么我们来看看这段对话吧。
Gottman gets another video, and another couple comes up on the TV in black-and-white, split-screen, one camera is on his face, one on hers, a time code in the corner.
戈特曼得到了另一段视频，电视上出现了另一对夫妇的黑白分屏画面，一个摄像头对着他的脸，一个对着她的脸，角落里有一个时间码。
They're talking about the fact that he is always late.
他们正在谈论他总是迟到的事实。
I don't believe you.
我不相信你。
You are really something.
你真是个东西。
Well, you could wake me up.
好吧，你可以叫醒我。
Woman No, I don't want to wake you up.
女人 不，我不想吵醒你。
You don't like to hear my voice.
你不喜欢听我的声音。
It's just like the tone of your mother's.
就像你母亲的语气一样。
That makes me feel real good, too.
这也让我感觉很好。
You don't like to talk to me.
你不喜欢和我说话。
So she's sarcastic and contemptuous.
所以她的语气是讽刺和轻蔑的。
"My tone is just like the sound of your mother.
“我的语气就像你母亲的声音。
That makes me feel real good, too." That's dripping with contempt, which is one of our best predictors of divorce.
这也让我感觉非常好。”这充满了蔑视，这是我们离婚的最佳预测之一。
She gets a negative score at that instant, that time instant.
那一刻，那一刻，她得到了负分。
Tell me to get up.
叫我起床。
Woman What am I supposed to say?
女人 我该说什么？
"Please, get up, dear.
“请站起来，亲爱的。
Would you get up?"
你要起来吗？”
Well, if you asked me to.
好吧，如果你要求我这么做的话。
I mean, that's like--
我的意思是，这就像——
Get serious.
认真点吧。
John Gottman Now, think-- he has a lot of choices here.
约翰·戈特曼 现在，想一想——他在这里有很多选择。
He can say, "I can see why that would really hurt your feelings, my saying that."
他可以说：“我明白为什么我这么说会真正伤害你的感情。”
He could back off.
他可以退缩了。
He could de-escalate.
他可以缓和局势。
Exactly.
确切地。
He could de-escalate.
他可以缓和局势。
He could hear her pain, which he doesn't.
他能听到她的痛苦，但他听不到。
So when Gottmann and his colleagues make a little graph of all the scores that the man and the woman are getting, as you might imagine, it drops lower and lower and then just never comes back up.
因此，当戈特曼和他的同事制作了一个关于男人和女人得到的所有分数的小图表时，正如你可能想象的那样，它会越来越低，然后就再也回不来了。
Picture a chart in the newspaper of the Dow Jones Industrial Average heading down, and you pretty much have the idea.
想象一下报纸上道琼斯工业平均指数下跌的图表，你就差不多明白了。
This kind of fight, the kind which gets worse and worse, is one of Gottman's findings for couples heading for divorce.
这种争吵越来越严重，是戈特曼对准备离婚的夫妇的调查结果之一。
When they argue, it just escalates.
当他们争论时，事情只会升级。
They don't take a break, they don't see each other's side, they don't accept influence.
他们不休息，看不到对方的立场，不接受影响。
That's a phrase that Gottman uses to mean that when one of them says something, it has influence on what the other one is thinking and saying.
戈特曼用这句话来表示，当其中一个人说某件事时，它会影响另一个人的想法和言论。
Couples who are in what we call the attack-defend mode, where there's escalating quarrels-- we can actually tell from the first three minutes of their conversation.
处于我们所说的攻防模式的夫妻，争吵不断升级，我们实际上可以从他们谈话的前三分钟就看出。
Most couples will divorce very early, an average of five years after the wedding.
大多数夫妇会很早就离婚，平均在结婚后五年。
One of these studies had been going on for over a decade when Gottman and his colleagues started noticing a second group of couples from their sample getting divorced.
其中一项研究已经进行了十多年，戈特曼和他的同事开始注意到样本中的第二组夫妇离婚了。
And at first, the researchers could not figure out what was going on.
起初，研究人员无法弄清楚发生了什么。
And our predictions were lousy.
我们的预测很糟糕。
We couldn't figure out what was wrong with them, at first.
起初我们无法弄清楚他们出了什么问题。
Because they seemed fine.
因为他们看起来很好。
They seemed really pretty neutral.
他们看起来真的很中立。
They weren't escalating the quarrel.
他们并没有让争吵升级。
They stayed together.
他们呆在一起。
They were fine.
他们很好。
Boom, they divorced.
轰，他们离婚了。
16 years after the wedding, they're divorcing.
结婚16年后，他们离婚了。
And then we're going back and saying, wait a minute.
然后我们回过头来说，等一下。
Let's look a little more closely.
让我们仔细看看。
And now you can see that there's no positive emotion really going on that's shared.
现在你可以看到，并没有真正分享积极的情绪。
One of them may laugh.
其中之一可能会笑。
The other one doesn't laugh.
另一个没有笑。
One of them looks warm and interested.
其中一位看上去热情而感兴趣。
The other one is pulled away.
另一个被拉走了。
There's just no fun.
就是没有乐趣。
They don't seem to enjoy each other at all.
他们似乎根本不喜欢彼此。
Those are the couples where, when you go to a restaurant, you see these couples who aren't talking to each other.
当你去餐馆时，你会看到这些情侣彼此不说话。
That's them.
就是他们。
They can last a long time being quite unhappy.
他们可以持续很长时间不快乐。
They can be great parents.
他们可以成为伟大的父母。
But especially when the kids leave home, they're at risk for really falling apart.
但尤其是当孩子们离开家时，他们面临着真正崩溃的风险。
Gottman says that when they started this research, they had no idea which factors were going to be the ones that would predict divorce.
戈特曼说，当他们开始这项研究时，他们不知道哪些因素会预测离婚。
Nobody had ever observed couples so closely and then followed them over time to see who stayed together and who did not.
没有人如此近距离地观察过夫妻，然后长时间地跟踪他们，看看谁在一起，谁不在一起。
Therapists and pop psychologists had all kinds of theories as to what would make a good relationship.
治疗师和流行心理学家对于如何建立良好的关系有各种各样的理论。
They were all completely untested.
它们都完全未经测试。
They thought that having lower expectations of marriage might make for happy marriages.
他们认为降低对婚姻的期望可能会带来幸福的婚姻。
Turns out to be untrue.
事实证明这是不真实的。
They thought that good couples make "I" statements instead of "you" statements.
他们认为好的夫妻会说“我”而不是“你”。
Turns out, no. Many people thought-- including Gottman and his colleagues-- that anger would predict divorce.
事实证明，没有。许多人——包括戈特曼和他的同事——认为愤怒会预示着离婚。
This idea is actually still around, that anger is destructive to any relationship, that it's against the scriptures, that it should be banned from marriages.
这种想法实际上仍然存在，即愤怒对任何关系都有破坏性，它违反圣经，应该禁止婚姻。
In fact, the data shows, happy, stable couples get angry all the time.
事实上，数据显示，幸福、稳定的夫妻总是会生气。
But their partners heard the anger.
但他们的伙伴听到了愤怒。
They responded to it.
他们对此做出了回应。
So a person might say, in a good relationship, "Will you shut up and let me finish?" Really angry, right?
因此，在一段良好的关系中，一个人可能会说：“你能闭嘴让我说完吗？”真的很生气吧？
And their partner would say, "Alright, finish." Angry response.
他们的搭档会说：“好吧，完成。”愤怒的回应。
But then the person got to finish.
但后来这个人必须说完。
The anger didn't predict anything negative.
愤怒并没有预示着任何负面的事情。
Now, in a relationship that wasn't working well-- "Will you shut up and let me finish?" "Oh, I don't get to finish until you finish, is that it?" "Yeah." "Why, that's just like what your mother would say?" "Oh, now I'm like my mother, now?" "Yeah, you are.
现在，在一段进展不顺利的关系中——“你能闭嘴让我说完吗？” “哦，在你完成之前我不会完成，是吗？” “是的。” “怎么，这和你妈妈说的一样吗？” “哦，现在我像我妈妈了，是吗？” “是的，你是。
Yadada, yadada, yadada."
亚达达，亚达达，亚达达。”
Contempt.
鄙视。
An escalation to defensiveness and contempt.
升级为防御和蔑视。
And that's the difference.
这就是区别。
The anger wasn't predicting anything negative, but the escalation-- that was predicting things negative.
愤怒并没有预示着任何负面的事情，而是升级——这预示着负面的事情。
Marriage counseling had been around since the end of the second World War.
婚姻咨询自第二次世界大战结束以来就已经存在。
But in a sense, until the 1970s-- until Gottman and this whole generation of researchers-- it was really a pretty ad hoc business.
但从某种意义上说，直到 20 世纪 70 年代——直到戈特曼和这一整代研究人员——这确实是一个相当临时的行业。
Therapists would give couples all sorts of advice.
治疗师会给夫妻提供各种各样的建议。
Sometimes it was useful, sometimes it wasn't.
有时它有用，有时则没有。
But it wasn't based on scientific research.
但这并不是基于科学研究。
Until Gottman's generation, nobody had figured out an effective way to observe real marriages-- successful and unsuccessful ones-- and figure out what the happy stable ones were doing that the unhappy divorcing ones weren't.
在戈特曼这一代之前，没有人找到一种有效的方法来观察真实的婚姻——成功的和不成功的婚姻——并弄清楚幸福稳定的婚姻在做什么，而不幸的离婚婚姻则没有。
Where we were-- and it's kind of like when we were in the Dark Ages about health care, and we were bleeding patients.
我们所处的位置——有点像我们处于医疗保健的黑暗时代，我们是流血的病人。
Diane Sollee runs what amounts to the preeminent clearinghouse for marriage research and education, called Smart Marriages in Washington, DC.
黛安·索利（Diane Sollee）在华盛顿特区经营着一家卓越的婚姻研究和教育信息交换所，名为“智能婚姻”（Smart Marriages）。
And we were basing our premises on old thinking.
我们的前提是建立在旧思维的基础上的。
And then these guys got all these gizmos-- computers, and video cameras, and heart monitors, and all kinds of gizmos-- and they went at it.
然后这些人得到了所有这些小玩意儿——电脑、摄像机、心脏监视器，以及各种各样的小玩意儿——然后他们就开始尝试。
And so we got real accurate, for the first time, observational research information about what makes marriages succeed or fail.
因此，我们第一次获得了关于婚姻成功或失败因素的真正准确的观察研究信息。
One of the most radical findings in the studies is that the studies threw doubt on the idea that couples should split up if they had irreconcilable differences.
研究中最激进的发现之一是，这些研究对夫妻如果存在不可调和的分歧就应该分手的观点提出了质疑。
All couples have irreconcilable differences, the studies proved-- the ones that stay together and the ones that don't.
研究证明，所有的夫妻都有不可调和的差异——那些在一起的，那些不在一起的。
They found that all couples disagree basically the same amount.
他们发现所有夫妇的分歧程度基本相同。
And then they thought, well, maybe it's about what they disagree about.
然后他们想，好吧，也许这就是他们不同意的地方。
And they found, no, it's not that.
他们发现，不，不是那样的。
It's not that some fight about money, and some about sex, and some about-- they found that all couples basically disagree about the same issues.
并不是有些人因为金钱而争吵，有些人因为性而争吵，还有一些人因为——他们发现所有的夫妻基本上在同样的问题上存在分歧。
Which are?
哪些是？
Diane Sollee Money, kids, sex, others, and time.
黛安·索利 (Diane Sollee) 金钱、孩子、性、其他和时间。
And others are things like who you're jealous of at the office, or your in-laws.
还有一些事情，比如你在办公室嫉妒的人，或者你的姻亲。
And time is like, what are we going to do on Sunday with our leisure time?
时间就像，我们周日的闲暇时间要做什么？
And so if all couples disagree about the same amount and about the same issues, well, then, what is it?
因此，如果所有夫妻在相同数量和相同问题上存在分歧，那么，这是什么？
And they found that it was that some couples understand-- they don't go to pieces when they're disagreeing.
他们发现，有些夫妻能够理解——当他们意见不一致时，他们不会分崩离析。
The success of marriage, they found out, was not based on finding someone with whom you agree on everything, and finding your soul mate.
他们发现，婚姻的成功并不在于找到一个在所有事情上都与你意见一致的人，也不是找到你的灵魂伴侣。
It was how you're going to handle the inevitable disagreements that are going to come up, no matter who you marry.
无论你嫁给谁，这都是你如何处理不可避免的分歧的方法。
OK, so these guys are also talking about the problem of lateness and time.
好吧，所以这些家伙也在谈论迟到和时间的问题。
He is always late.
他总是迟到。
I guess I'm-- Woman I feel kind of like it's dumping on you to discuss--
我想我是——女人，我觉得跟你讨论这件事有点让你感到不舒服——
She's smiling as she says it.
她一边说一边微笑着。
Woman --your being late.
女人——你迟到了。
No, I mean that's one of my few weaknesses.
不，我的意思是这是我为数不多的弱点之一。
I do have some weaknesses.
我确实有一些弱点。
[?
[？
But I don't disagree-- ?] Woman There isn't much to argue about.
但我并不反对——？] 女人 没什么好争论的。
OK, stop there for a second.
好的，停一下。
Notice how she softened her start up.
注意她是如何软化她的开始的。
She didn't say, "I am sick of you being late." She started off by saying, "I feel it's kind of picking on you to start off talking about the lateness and that it's your problem, focusing on you." That's sweet.
她没有说：“我厌倦了你迟到。”她一开始就说：“我觉得一开始就谈论迟到是对你的挑衅，这是你的问题，把注意力集中在你身上。”太甜了。
In fact, the best couples in Gottman's studies-- when they bring up something difficult, they do it in a way that does not make the other person defensive.
事实上，戈特曼研究中最好的夫妻——当他们提出一些困难的事情时，他们的方式不会让对方产生防御心理。
Even talking about their disagreements, there's laughing.
即使谈论他们的分歧，也会有笑声。
There's joking.
有开玩笑。
This is important because when somebody feels attacked, feels defensive, their heart rate goes up, and basically, Gottman says, reason gets thrown out the window.
这很重要，因为当一个人感到受到攻击、感到防御时，他们的心率就会上升，戈特曼说，基本上，理性就会被抛到九霄云外。
The heart's beating harder.
心脏跳动得更厉害了。
The arteries start getting constricted and contracted.
动脉开始收缩。
The body starts secreting adrenaline.
身体开始分泌肾上腺素。
And people just can't take in information very well.
人们无法很好地接受信息。
They can't process information.
他们无法处理信息。
You can want to be a great listener.
你可能想成为一名出色的倾听者。
Once your heart rate gets above that level, you just can't do it.
一旦您的心率超过该水平，您就无法做到这一点。
And you tend to get into what we call the summarizing yourself syndrome.
你很容易陷入我们所说的“自我总结综合症”。
You keep repeating your own ideas over and over again.
你不断地重复自己的想法。
And so when Gottman watches these videos, he's intensely aware of when somebody criticizes and what it does to the other person's pulse.
因此，当戈特曼观看这些视频时，他会强烈意识到何时有人批评以及这会对他人的脉搏产生什么影响。
Like here-- this wife tells her husband that a guy that they work with also hates his lateness.
就像这里——这位妻子告诉她的丈夫，与他们一起工作的一个人也讨厌他迟到。
And now I've learned to kind of just expect it and plan around it.
现在我已经学会了只是期待它并围绕它进行计划。
Even [UNINTELLIGIBLE] plans around it.
甚至[无法理解]也围绕它制定了计划。
But see then, I can be late but he can't.
但你看，我可以迟到，但他不能。
But you see, I think you're just getting back at your mother for all those times she left you swinging on those swings.
但你看，我认为你只是在报复你母亲让你荡秋千的那些次。
You know, you may be right.
你知道，你可能是对的。
John Gottman Here she goes.
约翰·戈特曼 她走了。
Yes, and I think you should grow up and not do that.
是的，我认为你应该长大，不要这样做。
I'm not your mother.
我不是你的母亲。
Man I'm conscious of it, but as you say that--
伙计，我意识到这一点，但正如你所说——
--the reality of those times when she'd forget about me for hours-- boy.
——她会忘记我好几个小时的现实——男孩。
Well, those were very turbulent times for me.
嗯，那对我来说是非常动荡的时期。
See?
看？
Man Yeah.
男人 是啊。
God, I hated her for that.
天啊，我为此恨她。
He's looking down.
他正在往下看。
Man The message was very clear.
男人的信息非常明确。
The message was very clear.
信息非常明确。
Boy, life's complex.
男孩，生活很复杂。
What about those shoes, anyhow?
那双鞋呢？
These are not fancy shoes.
这些不是花哨的鞋子。
These are old shoes.
这是旧鞋。
They're all worn down.
他们都已经疲惫不堪了。
No, they're pretty shoes, too.
不，它们也是漂亮的鞋子。
They're nice.
他们很好。
Isn't that wonderful?
那不是很棒吗？
Now, there's a repair.
现在，有修复了。
Now a lot of therapists wouldn't consider that a repair.
现在很多治疗师不会认为这是修复。
He's changing the subject.
他正在改变话题。
A lot of therapists probably would stop this guy and say, hey, wait a minute, we're talking about lateness and your mother.
很多治疗师可能会阻止这个人说，嘿，等一下，我们正在谈论迟到和你的母亲。
What happened with the shoes?
鞋子怎么了？
But there-- his heart rate is going down as he's doing that.
但当他这样做时，他的心率正在下降。
And she's letting him change the subject and they both laugh about the shoes.
她让他改变话题，他们俩都因为鞋子而大笑。
And his heart rate goes down.
他的心率下降。
And then they go back to the lateness issue.
然后他们又回到迟到问题。
As you might expect, after these researchers noticed all these techniques that happy couples use when they disagree, it didn't take long before they started to try to teach those things to the rest of us.
正如你所预料的那样，在这些研究人员注意到幸福的夫妻在意见不一致时使用的所有这些技巧之后，没过多久他们就开始尝试向我们其他人传授这些东西。
They created marriage education courses, which explained how to bring up a difficult subject without completely alienating your partner, how to keep yourself listening when your partner is criticizing you, how to take breaks when things get too hot-- all the stuff that the good couples in the videos do.
他们开设了婚姻教育课程，解释了如何在不完全疏远伴侣的情况下提出一个困难的话题，如何在伴侣批评你时保持倾听，如何在事情变得太激烈时休息——所有这些都是视频中好夫妻所做的事情。
Lots of course like this have sprung up.
当然，像这样的事情已经很多了。
They generally take just 10 or 12 hours.
他们通常只需要 10 或 12 小时。
And Diane Sollee says they get results.
黛安·索利 (Diane Sollee) 说他们取得了成果。
And we've spent millions of dollars of tax money researching these things.
我们花费了数百万美元的税收来研究这些事情。
And we know that with a 10-hour class in this marriage education, we can reduce the divorce rate 50% five years out.
我们知道，通过10个小时的婚姻教育课程，五年后我们可以将离婚率降低50%。
Reducing the divorce rate by 50%-- or really anything at all by 50%-- is the kind of track record that makes policy-makers take notice.
将离婚率降低 50%——或者实际上是降低 50%——这种记录引起了政策制定者的注意。
And in fact, it is exactly these kinds of marriage education courses that President Bush's $1.5 billion Healthy Marriage Initiative is providing free for welfare recipients.
事实上，布什总统耗资 15 亿美元的健康婚姻计划正是为福利领取者免费提供此类婚姻教育课程。
The Army is spending $1.8 million in courses for military families, a program called Building Strong and Ready Families.
陆军花费 180 万美元为军人家庭开设课程，该计划名为“建立强大和准备就绪的家庭”。
The courses are also popular in churches.
这些课程在教堂也很受欢迎。
In fact, studies show that couples learn the techniques better if they're taught by their own clergy.
事实上，研究表明，如果夫妻由自己的神职人员教导，他们可以更好地学习这些技巧。
Some researchers say that this new interest and investment is great, but they caution that while Gottman's study and most of the other marriage studies get interesting results, they're still relatively small as research goes-- anywhere from 30 to 300 couples usually, small enough that you can get random results that really might not have much meaning.
一些研究人员表示，这种新的兴趣和投资很棒，但他们警告说，虽然戈特曼的研究和大多数其他婚姻研究得到了有趣的结果，但从研究结果来看，它们仍然相对较小——通常是 30 到 300 对夫妇，小到你可以获得随机结果，但实际上可能没有多大意义。
One researcher told me that it's not like science has killer airtight conclusions about marriage yet.
一位研究人员告诉我，关于婚姻，科学还没有得出无懈可击的结论。
It's more like we have decent preliminary findings, and the main reason these courses and government programs exist is not that the science is perfect, but that people want answers.
更像是我们有不错的初步发现，这些课程和政府项目存在的主要原因不是科学是完美的，而是人们想要答案。
They want answers now.
他们现在就想要答案。
They want help.
他们需要帮助。
And it seemed like we knew enough to act.
看来我们知道的足够多，可以采取行动了。
Gottman and a researcher named Bob Levenson have also done a 12-year study of homosexual couples.
Gottman 和一位名叫 Bob Levenson 的研究人员也对同性恋夫妇进行了一项为期 12 年的研究。
There were just 42 couples-- a small study for Gottman, who usually gets 130 couples of races and ages to match the demographics of Seattle.
只有 42 对夫妇——这是 Gottman 的一项小型研究，他通常会收集 130 对种族和年龄的夫妇，以匹配西雅图的人口统计数据。
In fact, we've just submitted a research grant application to do that study over again with a larger sample size where we would try to get representative sampling.
事实上，我们刚刚提交了一份研究资助申请，以更大的样本量再次进行这项研究，我们将尝试获得代表性抽样。
It's just that it's hard to get funded to do research on gay and lesbian relationships.
只是很难获得资金来进行同性恋关系的研究。
The government is really not positively disposed to doing that research, and in fact, if you say "gay and lesbian" it will be pulled.
政府确实不太愿意做这项研究，事实上，如果你说“男同性恋和女同性恋”，它就会被取消。
It won't even be reviewed by the government.
甚至政府都不会审查。
It will get pulled.
它会被拉。
There are these watchdog organizations.
有这些监督组织。
So how do you say it?
那么怎么说呢？
John Gottman You talk about commitment in same-sex relationships.
约翰·戈特曼（John Gottman）您谈到了同性关系中的承诺。
But why wouldn't they just notice that same-sex means the same thing?
但为什么他们不注意到同性意味着同样的事情呢？
It turns out they have these computer programs that scan the abstracts for keywords.
事实证明，他们有这些计算机程序可以扫描摘要中的关键词。
I see.
我懂了。
John Gottman And if you don't use those keywords, then they don't get picked up.
John Gottman 如果您不使用这些关键字，那么它们就不会被选中。
Well, I hope I'm not blowing your cover here by broadcasting this.
好吧，我希望我不会通过广播来暴露你的身份。
Well, that's the kind of climate in which we're working.
嗯，这就是我们工作的氛围。
The study looked at 21 lesbian couples and 21 gay male couples, and compared them to 42 straight marriages of the same length of relationship and relationship satisfaction, as measured on a questionnaire.
该研究调查了 21 对女同性恋夫妇和 21 对男同性恋夫妇，并通过问卷调查将他们与 42 对具有相同关系长度和关系满意度的异性婚姻进行了比较。
The researchers videotaped the couples talking about some issue that they conflict about.
研究人员拍摄了这对夫妇谈论他们发生冲突的一些问题的视频。
And they found that the homosexual couples were far better than the married heterosexual couples at bringing up an issue in a non-confrontational way, of listening when criticized.
他们发现，同性恋夫妇比已婚的异性恋夫妇更善于以非对抗性的方式提出问题，并在批评时倾听。
They were less defensive.
他们的防守能力较差。
They were more positive.
他们更加积极。
The other thing we were able to do with our mathematical modeling was to find that not only do they start differently, but also the influence process in the married couple really moves them toward a more negative direction.
我们能够通过数学模型做的另一件事是发现，不仅他们的起点不同，而且已婚夫妇的影响过程确实使他们走向更消极的方向。
The longer they talk to each other, the more angry they get, the more adversarial they tend to get.
他们彼此交谈的时间越长，他们就越生气，他们就越容易变得敌对。
But in gay and lesbian couples, it's the opposite.
但在同性恋伴侣中，情况恰恰相反。
The longer they talk about the issue, the closer they get and the more positive they become.
他们谈论这个问题的时间越长，他们的关系就越接近，也变得越积极。
So a very, very different process operating in the gay and lesbian couples we studied.
因此，在我们研究的男女同性恋伴侣中，存在着一个非常非常不同的过程。
Now if they're representative, then we heterosexuals have got a lot to learn from gay and lesbian relationships.
现在，如果他们具有代表性，那么我们异性恋者就可以从同性恋关系中学到很多东西。
But John, the gay couples and the lesbian couples that you're talking about-- they're simply as good as the very best couples in your heterosexual couples?
但是约翰，你所说的同性恋伴侣和女同性恋伴侣——他们和你的异性恋伴侣中最好的伴侣一样好吗？
Or you're saying they're even better than them?
或者你说他们比他们更好？
Really?
真的吗？
John Gottman I mean, when you listen to the tapes, it's unbelievable what they're like.
约翰·戈特曼 我的意思是，当你听磁带时，它们的样子令人难以置信。
I'll give you an example of this.
我给你举一个例子。
One gay man said to his partner, "What did you think about the sex this morning?
一名男同性恋者对他的伴侣说：“你对今天早上的性事有什么看法？
Who do you think initiated the sex this morning?" And his partner said, "Well, you don't really have the kind of body on a man that I find really the most attractive." And the first man said, "I know that.
你认为今天早上是谁发起了性行为？”他的伴侣说：“嗯，你的身材并不是我认为最有吸引力的男人。”第一个人说：“我知道。
But who do you think initiated sex this morning?"
但你认为今天早上是谁发起性行为的呢？”
Oh, my God.
我的天啊。
John Gottman --talking to his wife, right?
约翰·戈特曼——正在和他的妻子说话，对吧？
And saying, "You don't have the kind of body that I find attractive."
并说：“你的身体没有我觉得有吸引力的那种。”
That's right.
这是正确的。
Can you imagine her saying, "Yeah, I know that.
你能想象她说：“是的，我知道。
But who do you think initiated sex?" So there's so much less deception, so much more honesty, and so much more directness.
但你认为是谁发起了性行为呢？”因此，欺骗少了很多，诚实多了，也多了直接。
And I don't know if it's representative.
而且不知道有没有代表性。
But I was very impressed.
但我印象非常深刻。
Gottman still can't explain why the gay couples would be so different.
戈特曼仍然无法解释为什么同性恋伴侣会如此不同。
He thinks part of the reason might be that, in general, it's just easier for men to talk to men and women to talk to women.
他认为部分原因可能是，一般来说，男性与男性交谈、女性与女性交谈更容易。
The fact that they communicate so differently makes things harder in heterosexual couples.
事实上，他们的沟通方式如此不同，这让异性伴侣的相处变得更加困难。
Back when I started calling around to marriage researchers, I expected that as a group they would be people who think a lot about our country's 50% divorce rate, like the divorce rate is the Mount Everest that they're all aiming at not just assaulting, but ultimately blasting down into rubble.
当我开始给婚姻研究人员打电话时，我预计他们作为一个群体会对我们国家 50% 的离婚率有很多思考，就像离婚率是珠穆朗玛峰一样，他们的目标不仅仅是攻击，而且最终会被炸成废墟。
But in fact, every researcher I called was reluctant to speculate about what all this new research could mean for the divorce rate someday.
但事实上，我打电话给的每一位研究人员都不愿意猜测所有这些新研究有一天对离婚率意味着什么。
Could they get it down to 30%?
他们能把这个比例降到30%吗？
Or maybe 10%?
或者也许是10%？
It's just too early to know, they would say.
他们会说，现在知道还为时过早。
After some prodding, I did get Gottman to tell me that a significant portion, 15% to 20% of the troubled couples in one of his studies probably were people who should be divorced.
经过一番催促，我确实让戈特曼告诉我，在他的一项研究中，有很大一部分问题夫妇（15% 到 20%）可能是应该离婚的人。
Even before their marriages, he said, they never had a basic rapport where they could spend time together easily and comfortably, where conversation just flowed.
他说，即使在结婚之前，他们也从未建立过基本的融洽关系，可以轻松舒适地共度时光，交谈顺畅。
For everything this research shows about how people can prevent divorce, for everything that it shows about how much happier couples can be if they master certain communication skills, for everything that he can quantify with his video cameras and his heart monitors, in the end, John Gottman still believes in chemistry.
对于这项研究表明的关于人们如何防止离婚的一切，对于它表明如果掌握一定的沟通技巧，夫妻可以变得多么幸福的一切，对于他可以用摄像机和心脏监测仪量化的一切，最后，约翰·戈特曼仍然相信化学。
[MUSIC - "BRICK HOUSE," THE DOUG LAWRENCE ORCHESTRA]
[音乐 - “砖房”，道格·劳伦斯管弦乐团]
See, that's a wedding band.
看，那是结婚戒指。
Coming up, it's raining lawsuits.
即将到来，诉讼雨下。
A look inside them-- that's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
一分钟后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续报道它们的内部情况。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose some theme and bring you a variety of different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，每周我们的节目都会选择一些主题，并为您带来有关该主题的各种不同类型的故事。
Today's program-- The Sanctity of Marriage, stories about what that might mean.
今天的节目——《婚姻的神圣性》，讲述这可能意味着什么的故事。
We've arrived at Act Two of our program.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act Two, The Defense of Marriage Act.
第二幕，《婚姻保护法》。
When the White House proposed the constitutional amendment preventing gay marriage, the president explained why it was necessary this way.
当白宫提出禁止同性婚姻的宪法修正案时，总统解释了为什么有必要这样做。
He said, marriage is a sacred institution between a man and a woman.
他说，婚姻是男人和女人之间神圣的制度。
If activist judges insist on redefining marriage by court order, the only alternative will be the constitutional process.
如果维权法官坚持通过法院命令重新定义婚姻，唯一的选择就是宪法程序。
We must do what is legally necessary to defend the sanctity of marriage.
我们必须采取法律必要的行动来捍卫婚姻的神圣性。
Well, Adam Felber says he knows just what the president is talking about.
亚当·费尔伯说他知道总统在说什么。
This gay marriage thing is tearing my wife and me apart.
同性婚姻的事情正在撕裂我和我的妻子。
Because of activist judges in Massachusetts and overzealous officials in San Francisco, our union is hanging on by the thinnest of threads.
由于马萨诸塞州激进的法官和旧金山过于热心的官员，我们的工会已经命悬一线。
Are Jeannie and I expected to treasure our union solely on the basis of our deep love, personal beliefs, public vows, and the government's blessing?
难道我和珍妮会仅仅因为深爱、个人信仰、公开誓言和政府的祝福而珍惜我们的结合吗？
Sorry, Judge Pinkypants, but that's just not good enough, not for us.
抱歉，小粉裤法官，但这还不够好，不适合我们。
We need to know that we've got something that's only available to 90% of the population.
我们需要知道我们拥有的东西只能供 90% 的人使用。
Sure, some of us are criminals, murderers even.
当然，我们中的一些人是罪犯，甚至是杀人犯。
Some of us have committed rape, beaten children, tattooed swastikas on our bodies, abused animals, bilked the government out of millions of tax dollars, lied under oath, cheated on previous spouses, dishonored our fathers and mothers, failed to keep the Sabbath holy, mowed down pedestrians in our SUVs while intoxicated, coveted our neighbor's stuff, gotten ourselves put on death row, sold military secrets to the Chinese, urinated in public places, beaten up people who looked or sounded different than us, but we're straight.
我们中的一些人犯下了强奸罪、殴打儿童、在身上纹纳粹十字记号、虐待动物、骗取政府数百万税款、在宣誓下撒谎、欺骗前任配偶、羞辱我们的父母、不守安息日、醉酒时在SUV中砍倒行人、觊觎邻居的东西、被关进死囚牢房、向中国人出卖军事机密、在公共场所小便、殴打那些看起来或听起来与我们不同的人，但我们是异性恋。
And that means we can get married.
这意味着我们可以结婚了。
And that's special.
这很特别。
Or at least it was.
或者至少是这样。
Are some gay people serious about their commitment to each other?
有些同性恋者认真对待彼此的承诺吗？
Sure, of course.
当然，当然。
That's not the point.
这不是重点。
Let me give you an example.
让我举个例子。
Jeannie and I know this couple, these two men.
珍妮和我认识这对夫妇，这两个人。
They've been together for years and years, longer than we have.
他们在一起已经很多年了，比我们在一起的时间还要长。
They live on a farm in Pennsylvania and treasure their time together.
他们住在宾夕法尼亚州的一个农场里，珍惜在一起的时光。
They are loved by their community, have saved lives as members of the local fire department, and have opened their home to youth groups from the city.
他们深受社区的喜爱，作为当地消防队的成员拯救了生命，并向城市的青年团体开放了他们的家。
They've built a life together based on love and trust.
他们共同建立了基于爱和信任的生活。
But-- and here's my point-- they're gay.
但是——这就是我的观点——他们是同性恋。
They're both men.
他们都是男人。
And if they're allowed to marry someday, where does that leave us, my wife and me?
如果有一天他们被允许结婚，我们、我的妻子和我会怎样？
See what I'm saying?
明白我在说什么吗？
It would cheapen everything we have.
它会让我们拥有的一切变得廉价。
That's why we need a constitutional amendment that will protect marriage for straight people.
这就是为什么我们需要一项宪法修正案来保护异性恋者的婚姻。
Unless we have the right to enter that sacred union, violate it, exit it, and enter it again with somebody else over and over, regardless of what crimes we commit-- unless we have that right and gay people don't, then there truly is nothing sacred in the United States of America.
除非我们有权利一遍又一遍地与其他人一起进入这个神圣的联盟，违反它，退出它，然后再次进入这个联盟，无论我们犯了什么罪——除非我们有这个权利而同性恋者没有，那么在美利坚合众国就真的没有什么神圣的了。
Adam Felber is a writer in New York, sometimes heard on the radio program Wait Wait...
Adam Felber 是纽约的一位作家，有时会在广播节目“Wait Wait”中听到他的声音……
Don't Tell Me!
别告诉我！
His website, where this first appeared, felbers.net.
他的网站 felbers.net 首次出现了该内容。
The opponents of gay marriage are vigorously pushing for state and federal constitutional amendments.
同性婚姻的反对者正在大力推动州和联邦宪法修正案。
And they are fighting in court.
他们正在法庭上打架。
But sometimes it seems like they're in kind of a funny position.
但有时他们的处境似乎很有趣。
I don't know if you saw this.
我不知道你是否看到了这个。
I saw them on Larry King the night that the president called for a constitutional amendment last year.
去年总统呼吁宪法修正案的那天晚上，我在拉里·金节目中看到了他们。
And they were on there talking about the Bible, and quoting scripture, and saying that homosexuality is just wrong, that it's a values question.
他们在那里谈论圣经，引用经文，并说同性恋是错误的，这是一个价值观问题。
Not for everybody, but for lots of opponents of gay marriage, they think that gays just should not be such a big part of mainstream America.
不是每个人，而是很多同性婚姻的反对者，他们认为同性恋不应该成为美国主流的重要组成部分。
And the problem is, you can't really argue that in court-- not in this day and age-- not and expect to get very far, anyway.
问题是，你不能真正在法庭上辩解这一点——不是在当今时代——无论如何，你不能指望能走得很远。
And so we asked Matt Staver, who runs the Liberty Counsel and goes into court for them-- they're the group opposing gay marriage that went into court in California-- to briefly explain to us what arguments he is actually using in court, the legal arguments to defend a traditional marriage clause.
因此，我们请马特·斯塔弗（Matt Staver），他负责自由律师并代表他们出庭——他们是反对同性婚姻的团体，在加利福尼亚州进入法庭——向我们简要解释一下他在法庭上实际使用的论据，即捍卫传统婚姻条款的法律论据。
The defense would be several-fold.
防御力将成倍增加。
Number one, it would look at the marriage laws and ask the question whether or not the government of that particular state has a rational reason, or a rational basis, for classifying marriage between one man and one woman.
第一，它将审查婚姻法并询问该特定州的政府对一男一女之间的婚姻进行分类是否有合理的理由或合理的基础。
So if the court can find what it calls a rational basis, then the law is ultimately upheld.
因此，如果法院能够找到所谓的合理依据，那么法律最终就会得到维护。
You break that down in several ways.
你可以通过几种方式来分解它。
Number one, you can look at children.
第一，你可以看看孩子们。
We already know, for example, from many studies, that children do best when they're raised in a home with a mother and father.
例如，我们从许多研究中已经知道，孩子在有母亲和父亲的家庭中长大时表现最好。
So the state could certainly have a rational basis for instituting marriage between one man and one woman to protect children.
因此，国家肯定有合理的理由实行一男一女婚姻以保护儿童。
Now, that may be debatable.
现在，这可能是有争议的。
But the question is not whether it's debatable or not.
但问题不在于它是否值得商榷。
It's whether or not the state has a rational purpose, even though it's debatable.
问题在于国家是否有合理的目的，尽管这是有争议的。
As long as it's reasonable or rational, that's enough to uphold the state marriage law.
只要合理或者合理，就足以维护国家婚姻法。
In a way, the power of that comes from the fact that-- let's say the other side has their studies which argue one thing, and you guys have your studies that argue something else.
在某种程度上，它的力量来自于这样一个事实——假设对方的研究论证了一件事，而你们的研究论证了另一件事。
You're saying, as long as your side is defendable, you win.
你是说，只要你的一方能够防守，你就赢了。
That's exactly right.
完全正确。
Ira Glass In Massachusetts, the problem for people like Matt Staver who oppose gay marriage is that the court said, no, there is not even a reasonable case to be made.
艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 在马萨诸塞州，像马特·斯塔弗 (Matt Staver) 这样反对同性婚姻的人面临的问题是，法院说，不，甚至没有合理的理由。
There is not a rational basis for the state to give preference to male-female couples in raising children.
国家在抚养子女方面优先考虑男女伴侣，并无合理依据。
And the court did this in a kind of interesting way.
法院以一种有趣的方式做到了这一点。
They said, essentially, our hands are tied.
他们说，从本质上讲，我们的双手被束缚了。
We are bound by our own precedents and by laws that the legislature has passed.
我们受到我们自己的先例和立法机关通过的法律的约束。
Under Massachusetts law, gay adoption is just as good as heterosexual adoption.
根据马萨诸塞州法律，同性恋收养与异性恋收养一样好。
Gays are equal to straights in custody cases.
在拘留案件中，同性恋与异性恋是平等的。
There is a network of vigorous gender-neutral laws that have already settled this question, and settled it by saying that in Massachusetts, gays are equal parents to straights.
有一个强有力的性别中立法律网络已经解决了这个问题，并通过规定在马萨诸塞州同性恋者与异性恋者是平等的父母来解决这个问题。
So the opponents of gay marriage have even started to lose this test of reasonableness.
所以同性婚姻的反对者甚至开始失去这个合理性的考验。
The other problem for opponents of gay marriage is that a couple of state courts-- Alaska and Hawaii-- have said that keeping gays from marrying is the most serious kind of discrimination, just as serious as race or gender discrimination.
反对同性婚姻的另一个问题是，阿拉斯加和夏威夷等几个州法院表示，阻止同性恋者结婚是最严重的歧视，与种族或性别歧视一样严重。
Now, from Matt Staver's perspective, this is an outrageous kind of judicial activism, and here's why.
现在，从马特·斯塔弗的角度来看，这是一种令人愤慨的司法行动主义，原因如下。
Homosexuality has never been considered a class by any court in the country, such that it actually comes under the equal protection clause.
同性恋从未被该国任何法院视为一个类别，因此它实际上受到平等保护条款的保护。
You have to be considered a class.
你必须被视为一个班级。
And one of the ways to be considered a class is to be a distinct group that has immutable characteristics like, for example, race-- that's an identifiable group-- and gender-- that's an identifiable group.
被视为一个阶级的方法之一是成为一个具有不变特征的独特群体，例如，种族（这是一个可识别的群体）和性别（这是一个可识别的群体）。
Homosexuals may see themselves as a distinct group with immutable characteristics, but the courts haven't seen them that way in the past.
同性恋者可能将自己视为一个具有不可改变特征的独特群体，但法院过去并没有这样看待他们。
Then Oregon ruled otherwise in 1998.
1998 年，俄勒冈州做出了不同的裁决。
And now that states are shifting on both the big questions like this one and some of the smaller questions, Matt Staver's job has gotten a lot harder.
现在，各州正在对像这样的大问题和一些较小的问题进行转变，马特·斯塔弗的工作变得更加困难。
None of the arguments available to him is a slam dunk anymore, like they were in the 1970s.
他所拥有的论点不再像 20 世纪 70 年代那样是稳妥的。
David Cruz is a law professor at the University of Southern California who follows and writes about these issues.
大卫·克鲁兹是南加州大学的法学教授，他关注并撰写有关这些问题的文章。
If they get an occasionally sympathetic judge, they might win a victory.
如果他们偶尔得到一个富有同情心的法官，他们可能会赢得胜利。
But if they want to make sure that you don't start seeing marriage in state after state, then they need to do something blunt and dramatic.
但如果他们想确保你不会在一个又一个州看到婚姻，那么他们需要做一些直率和戏剧性的事情。
That's why they're asking the nation to amend the constitution, because the arguments for keeping marriage to just a man and a woman are too weak.
这就是为什么他们要求国家修改宪法，因为只允许一男一女结婚的理由太站不住脚了。
It's like changing the rules of the game.
这就像改变游戏规则一样。
If you can't win making the arguments that are currently allowed under our constitution, they have to try to change the constitution to just eliminate the need for argument, and just on the face of it say, well, marriage just is this way.
如果你无法赢得我们宪法目前允许的论点，他们就必须尝试修改宪法以消除争论的需要，从表面上看，婚姻就是这样。
Hence the push for a constitutional amendment.
因此，推动宪法修正案。
13 states banned gay marriage in their state constitutions this fall.
今年秋天，13 个州在州宪法中禁止同性婚姻。
And another 18 are considering it.
另外 18 人正在考虑。
[MUSIC - "COPACABANA," THE DOUG LAWRENCE ORCHESTRA]
[音乐 - “COPACABANA”，道格·劳伦斯管弦乐团]
Act Three, I Want to Be a Statistic.
第三幕，我想成为一个统计数据。
Well, John Gottman may videotape couples as they argue, but nobody observes marriage better than a couple's own kids.
好吧，约翰·戈特曼（John Gottman）可能会录下夫妻争吵的过程，但没有人比夫妻自己的孩子更能观察婚姻。
Starlee Kine has this story about what marriages stay together and which ones break up, and about her parents' vision of marriage back in southern California.
斯塔莉·凯恩 (Starlee Kine) 的故事讲述了哪些婚姻能够维持下去，哪些婚姻会破裂，以及她父母在南加州对婚姻的愿景。
About three months ago, I received a postcard in the mail.
大约三个月前，我收到了一张邮寄的明信片。
On the front was a picture of a kitten staring out at me with big watery eyes.
正面是一张小猫的照片，它用水汪汪的大眼睛盯着我。
On the back was scrawled a handwritten note.
背面潦草地写着一张手写的便条。
"Dear Starlee, divorced and loving it.
“亲爱的斯塔莉，离婚了但很喜欢它。
Love, Mom.
爱，妈妈。
"
”
My parents filed for divorce this past November.
我的父母去年十一月提出离婚。
They had been unhappily married for 31 years.
他们的婚姻生活并不幸福31年。
My earliest childhood memory is from when I was four years old.
我最早的童年记忆是在我四岁时。
My family took a road trip to Oregon.
我的家人去俄勒冈州进行了一次公路旅行。
I was sitting in the back next my older sister.
我坐在后面，旁边是我姐姐。
My dad was pointing out the window at the trees saying something along the lines of, "Wow, these trees are really something.
我爸爸指着窗外的树说着这样的话：“哇，这些树真的很了不起。
They're just so tall."
他们只是这么高。”
My mom whipped her head around, her eyes already in mid-roll.
我妈妈猛地转过头，眼睛已经在滚动了。
"For God's sake, Norm.
“看在上帝的份上，诺姆。
They're not that tall." Then both my parents let out a long sigh.
他们没那么高。”然后我的父母都长长地叹了口气。
It was at that moment that I can remember having a thought, maybe the first original thought I ever had.
就在那一刻，我记得有一个想法，也许是我有过的第一个原始想法。
I recall looking up at my parents and thinking, "Well, this just isn't going to work."
我记得抬头看着我的父母，心想：“好吧，这行不通。”
If we switched, sooner or later, they'd have to unswitch us.
如果我们换了，他们迟早会取消我们的换换。
Mother would have to bring me to California to unmix us.
母亲必须带我去加利福尼亚才能让我们分开。
Face to face.
面对面。
Are you thinking what I'm thinking?
你在想我在想什么吗？
I watched The Parent Trap all the time when I was a kid.
我小时候一直在看《父母的陷阱》。
It became a bit of an obsession.
这变得有点痴迷。
I regarded the plan the twin sisters came up with as a blueprint for how to deal with my own family, with one minor change.
我把双胞胎姐妹提出的计划视为如何与自己的家庭相处的蓝图，只是做了一点小小的改变。
While the twins in the movie wanted to get their parents back together, I wanted to break mine apart.
电影中的双胞胎想让他们的父母复合，而我却想拆散我的父母。
I'd watch the movie and try to notice how it was done.
我会观看这部电影并尝试注意它是如何完成的。
It was like following directions somewhere, and then just doing the opposite to get back home.
这就像在某个地方遵循指示，然后做相反的事情才能回家。
Where you turned right before, you now turned left.
之前你右转的地方，现在你左转了。
Where you turned left, you now turned right.
你向左转的地方，现在向右转。
Instead of tricking my parents into being in the same room, my sister and I would schedule my tap and her drum lessons at the same time, so only one of our parents would be able to pick each of us up.
我和姐姐不会欺骗我的父母住在同一个房间，而是同时安排我的踢踏舞和架子鼓课程，这样只有我们的父母之一能够接我们每个人。
And really, it didn't seem like breaking my parents up was something that should be that hard to do.
说实话，让我的父母分手似乎并不是一件很难做到的事情。
They fought constantly.
他们不断地战斗。
For my mom, everything about my dad seemed to irritate her-- the way he ate, the way he slept, even the way his feet were extra long so he had to wear specially sized shoes.
对于我妈妈来说，关于我爸爸的一切似乎都让她恼火——他吃饭的方式，他睡觉的方式，甚至他的脚特别长，所以他不得不穿特殊尺寸的鞋子。
All the stories she told of my childhood ended the same way.
她给我讲述的所有童年故事都以同样的方式结束。
"I brought you home from the hospital.
“我把你从医院带回家了。
You were such a beautiful baby.
你真是个漂亮的宝贝。
And then your father carried the bags in and forgot to shut the front door.
然后你父亲把袋子拎了进去，却忘记关上前门。
I remember it like it was yesterday."
我记得它就像昨天一样。”
My dad responded to my mom's irritation by withdrawing more and more from our family.
为了回应妈妈的愤怒，我爸爸越来越远离我们的家庭。
Every day without fail, as soon as he got home from work, he'd get on the phone and talk for hours and hours.
每天下班回家后，他都会毫无例外地打电话，聊上好几个小时。
At first, they were just regular business calls to his associates.
起初，他们只是定期给他的同事打电话。
The conversations would be all about work.
谈话内容都是关于工作的。
But then, as the hour grew later, he'd start asking about their kids, about what they were having for dinner that night or their plan for the weekend.
但随着时间的推移，他会开始询问他们的孩子，他们那天晚上吃什么，或者他们周末的计划。
He seemed more comfortable taking an interest in the lives of other people's families than in ours.
他似乎更愿意关心别人家庭的生活，而不是我们的家庭。
I used to joke to my friends that half the time, my dad wasn't even talking to anyone at all, that if we were to go upstairs and pick up the extension, we'd hear nothing but silence from the other end.
我曾经对我的朋友开玩笑说，有一半的时间，我爸爸根本不和任何人说话，如果我们上楼拿起分机，我们只会听到另一端的沉默。
For years, the biggest mystery in my life was how these two people ever managed to end up together.
多年来，我一生中最大的谜团就是这两个人是如何最终走到一起的。
But over time, that question was trumped by a much bigger one, why they decided to stay together for so long.
但随着时间的推移，这个问题被一个更大的问题所取代，即为什么他们决定在一起这么长时间。
I can't really get the answer from my mom because, to put it mildly, she's a little off-kilter.
我无法真正从妈妈那里得到答案，因为，温和地说，她有点不适应。
She's never been officially diagnosed with anything, but even so, she does a lot of things outside the realm of normal people.
她从未被正式诊断出患有任何疾病，但即便如此，她仍然做了很多常人之外的事情。
And over the years, her behavior has become much more extreme.
这些年来，她的行为变得更加极端。
So that leaves my dad.
这样就只剩下我爸爸了。
All my life, I have urged my dad to leave my mom, to free himself of all the unhappiness, and yelling, and erratic behavior.
我一生都在敦促我的父亲离开我的母亲，让自己摆脱所有的不快乐、大喊大叫和古怪的行为。
But not only has my dad refused to end the marriage, he's refused to even acknowledge they had any problems.
但我父亲不仅拒绝结束婚姻，甚至拒绝承认他们有任何问题。
It wasn't until after the divorce finally went through this year that my dad was able to gain any perspective on his marriage.
直到今年离婚终于结束后，我父亲才对他的婚姻有了一些看法。
My dad agreed to talk to me on tape to try and explain to me why he and my mom stayed together.
我父亲同意通过录音与我交谈，试图向我解释为什么他和我妈妈住在一起。
I start off by asking him if there was ever a good time in their relationship, or was it really always as bad as I remembered it?
我首先问他，他们的关系是否曾经有过一段美好时光，或者真的总是像我记忆中的那么糟糕吗？
It was always rocky from the start.
从一开始它就一直很坎坷。
I don't remember.
我不记得了。
You don't remember.
你不记得了。
Did it ever feel right, though?
但这种感觉是否正确？
You and Mom?
你和妈妈？
I have-- I don't know.
我有——我不知道。
Starlee Kine I mean, from my perspective, it never seemed right.
Starlee Kine 我的意思是，从我的角度来看，这似乎从来都不是正确的。
I mean, it's a different perspective.
我的意思是，这是一个不同的视角。
But from what I've always witnessed-- from a very, very, very young age-- it never seemed like you guys were right for each other ever.
但从我一直见证的情况来看——从非常、非常、非常年轻的时候开始——你们似乎从来都不是最合适的人选。
I remember lots of times when I was a kid, running into your office and trying to tell you to get a divorce.
我记得小时候很多次，跑进你的办公室，试图告诉你离婚。
Do you remember any of that time?
你还记得那段时光吗？
I don't recall that at all.
我完全不记得了。
Starlee Kine Really?
斯塔莉·凯恩 真的吗？
Because it wasn't a mystery to us that you guys had problems, obviously.
因为显然你们遇到问题对我们来说并不神秘。
Well, people who I knew that I had not seen until recently have all-- many of them have made the remark that they felt that your mother was very hard to live with.
嗯，我认识的直到最近才见过的人都有——他们中的许多人都说过，他们觉得你母亲很难相处。
Yeah, I'll say.
是的，我会说。
Father Why they would even know that or say that, I don't know because--
父亲 为什么他们会知道或这么说，我不知道，因为——
Mom had a lot of outbursts around Whittier.
妈妈在惠蒂尔身边经常发脾气。
Like, lots of fights and craziness.
就像，很多战斗和疯狂。
Remember when she tried to buy the house without telling you?
还记得她在没有告诉你的情况下试图买房子吗？
Oh, I remember that.
哦，我记得。
Yeah.
是的。
Starlee Kine What happened there?
斯塔莉·凯恩 那里发生了什么？
What happened when she tried to buy the house without telling you?
当她在没有告诉你的情况下试图买房子时发生了什么？
She forged my name.
她伪造了我的名字。
And then the people sued us.
然后人们起诉我们。
And they got a judgment against her.
他们得到了对她不利的判决。
They couldn't get it against me, because I had no knowledge of it.
他们无法针对我，因为我对此一无所知。
What was she planning to do with that house?
她打算用那栋房子做什么？
Was she going to tell you that you guys were going to move?
她会告诉你你们要搬家吗？
Yeah, she told me on the last day.
是的，她在最后一天告诉我的。
She said, this is the house we're buying.
她说，这就是我们要买的房子。
I said, number one, we can't afford it.
我说，第一，我们买不起。
Number two, it's ugly.
第二，它很丑。
And that is not a good sign of a healthy marriage.
这并不是健康婚姻的好兆头。
That's true.
确实如此。
Not a sign of a healthy relationship.
这不是健康关系的标志。
That's right.
没错。
No. So how did you feel when she did that?
不。那么当她这样做时你感觉如何？
How did I feel?
我感觉如何？
I wasn't very happy about it.
我对此不太高兴。
My dad has always been fond of this answer.
我父亲一直很喜欢这个答案。
Sometimes he likes to mix it up with a, "the grass is always greener" or a "you can't fit a square peg in a round hole." But this one was always a keeper.
有时他喜欢将其与“草总是更绿”或“你不能在圆孔中安装方钉”混在一起。但这个人始终是一名守门员。
And as I got older and started asking him all the time why he stayed in such a miserable marriage, my frustration would just grow stronger with each "Y is a crooked letter" answer he gave, especially as my mom's antics became more and more pronounced.
随着年龄的增长，我开始一直问他为什么要维持如此悲惨的婚姻，随着他给出的每一个“Y是一个歪曲的字母”的答案，我的挫败感只会变得更加强烈，尤其是当我妈妈的滑稽动作变得越来越明显时。
Or as, for example, the day my mom finally took my dad to court, although it wasn't for the reason I'd always hoped it would be.
或者，例如，我妈妈终于把我爸爸告上法庭的那一天，尽管这并不是我一直希望的那样。
My dad was born Norman [?
我父亲出生于诺曼[？
Slobodkin.
斯洛博德金。
?] For the first few years of my life, that my last name too.
？] 在我生命的最初几年里，我的姓氏也是如此。
Starlee [?
斯塔莉[?
Candy ?] [?
糖果？] [？
Slobodkin.
斯洛博德金。
?] Yes, it was hard to spell and clunky to say.
？] 是的，它很难拼写，而且说起来也很笨拙。
But I could live with it.
但我可以忍受。
My mom, on the other hand, could not.
另一方面，我妈妈却不能。
In her mind, his name was the only thing that stood between us and a world of endless possibility.
在她看来，他的名字是我们与无限可能的世界之间唯一的障碍。
She held the [?
她拿着[？
Slobodkin ?] name personally responsible for all her problems.
斯洛博德金？] 亲自对她的所有问题负责。
She'd lie on the couch, a hot towel pressed to her temples, and marvel at how her life had ended up this way.
她会躺在沙发上，用热毛巾敷在太阳穴上，惊叹自己的生活怎么会变成这样。
"How will I ever be a diplomat's wife now, with a name like that?
“有了这样的名字，我现在怎么能成为一名外交官的妻子呢？
And I can forget about First Lady.
我可以忘记第一夫人。
President [?
总统 [？
Slobodkin?
斯洛博德金？
?] Please.
？] 请。
The press would eat us alive."
媒体会把我们活活吃掉。”
We'd try and point out my dad's lack of political aspirations.
我们会尝试指出我父亲缺乏政治抱负。
But our mom would just wave us away impatiently.
但妈妈只是不耐烦地挥手让我们走开。
And then finally, when she could not stand it a moment longer, she took action.
最后，当她再也无法忍受时，她采取了行动。
She went to a judge and arranged to have my dad's name legally changed.
她去找法官并安排合法地更改我父亲的名字。
My dad went along with it to keep the peace.
为了维持和平，我父亲也同意了。
And by the end of the day, my dad had gone from being Norman [?
到那天结束时，我父亲已经不再是诺曼人了[？
Slobodkin ?] to Norman Kine.
斯洛博德金？]诺曼·凯恩。
For a little while, this seemed to satisfy my mother.
有一段时间，这似乎让母亲感到满意。
She would happily sign both her and his new name in big flowery loops.
她会很高兴地在大花环上签下她和他的新名字。
But then as time went by, and neither the marriage nor her life seemed to improve, she was forced to confront the real source of her unhappiness-- Norman.
但随着时间的推移，婚姻和她的生活似乎都没有改善，她被迫面对她不幸的真正根源——诺曼。
"What kind of a name is that?
“这是什么样的名字啊？
Can you name one character from literature with that name?
你能说出一个文学人物的名字吗？
Or one great historical figure?
或者一位伟大的历史人物？
I guess I'll have to accept the fact that I'll never be an astronaut's wife or own a fleet of ships.
我想我必须接受这样一个事实：我永远不会成为宇航员的妻子或拥有一支舰队。
Commandeer Norman.
诺曼指挥官。
It wouldn't happen in a million years."
一百万年内这不会发生。”
And so, once again, a trip to the courthouse was made.
于是，我们再次前往法院。
When my dad came out, his first name was no longer Norman.
当我父亲出柜时，他的名字不再是诺曼。
It was Richard.
是理查德。
He was now Richard Kine.
他现在是理查德·凯恩。
By the time I was in college, my parents seemed to lead altogether separate lives.
当我上大学时，我的父母似乎过着完全不同的生活。
My mom started to go to a lot of self-help seminars.
我妈妈开始参加很多自助研讨会。
And my dad now seemed to be working at all hours of the day.
我父亲现在似乎全天都在工作。
My mom got an apartment that my dad didn't know about.
我妈妈得到了一套我爸爸不知道的公寓。
And most shockingly, she began seeing another man.
最令人震惊的是，她开始约会另一个男人。
They went on a trip to Europe together in secret, my mom telling my dad that she'd gone to Palm Springs to visit her mom.
他们秘密一起去欧洲旅行，我妈妈告诉我爸爸她去棕榈泉看望她妈妈。
They seemed to have perfected a schedule that entailed neither of them being in the same house for more than 10 minutes at a time.
他们似乎已经完善了一个时间表，规定他们每次在同一所房子里的时间都不超过 10 分钟。
My mom went back to school and got her credentials to become a substitute teacher, which my dad also didn't know about.
我妈妈回到学校并获得了成为代课老师的资格，而我爸爸也不知道。
It was all so bizarre and extreme that I didn't even know where to start explaining it.
这一切都是那么的离奇和极端，我什至不知道从哪里开始解释。
I imagined calling my dad up in the middle of the night to break the news to him.
我想象着半夜打电话给我爸爸，把这个消息告诉他。
"Dad, there's something I have to tell you.
“爸爸，有件事我必须告诉你。
For the past few years, mom has been leading a double life.
这些年来，妈妈一直过着双重生活。
She has a secret apartment and a secret boyfriend.
她有一个秘密公寓和一个秘密男朋友。
She is also a substitute teacher."
她也是一名代课老师。”
My dad, however, found out about it on his own.
然而，我父亲自己发现了这件事。
He hired a private detective and had my mom followed.
他雇了一名私家侦探并让我妈妈跟踪。
And it was at that point that my father took what was, to him, the next logical step.
正是在那时，我父亲采取了对他来说合乎逻辑的下一步。
Rather than putting an end to a marriage that he hadn't been happy in from the very start, he instead did the opposite.
他没有结束这段从一开始就不幸福的婚姻，而是反其道而行之。
He put all of his energy into saving it.
他投入了全部的精力来拯救它。
My dad started buying my mom presents all the time.
我爸爸开始一直给我妈妈买礼物。
They went to museums and for long drives up the coast.
他们参观了博物馆，并沿着海岸开了很长一段路。
They sat up late at night and made plans for the future.
他们彻夜未眠，为未来制定计划。
This would go on for a while.
这种情况会持续一段时间。
But then I'd hear from my mom that things weren't working out, and that they were definitely going to do it-- get a divorce.
但后来我从妈妈那里听说事情进展不顺利，他们肯定会这么做——离婚。
A week later, I'd call my dad to see how he was holding up.
一周后，我打电话给我父亲，看看他的情况如何。
And he'd tell me everything was going great.
他会告诉我一切都很顺利。
They were together again.
他们又在一起了。
This back and forth-- my hopes intermittently fulfilled then crushed-- went on for two whole years.
这种反反复复——我的希望时断时续地实现，然后又破灭——持续了整整两年。
It got to the point that the only way I could tell if they were separated or not was by calling my dad's cell phone to see whether it said to leave a message for Richard Kine or for Norman [?
事情到了这样的地步，我判断他们是否分开的唯一方法就是拨打我父亲的手机，看看上面是否写着给理查德·凯恩或诺曼留言[？
Slobodkin.
斯洛博德金。
?] When they were doing well, he was Richard.
？]当他们做得很好时，他是理查德。
When they weren't, he went back to Norm.
当他们不在时，他又回到了诺姆。
I asked my dad what he was thinking during this time.
我问爸爸这段时间在想什么。
And he tells me that he'd decided to be the attentive loving husband that he'd never been before.
他告诉我，他决定成为一个他以前从未做过的细心、慈爱的丈夫。
So again, I ask him why.
于是我又问他为什么。
It's quite a mystery why you fought so hard to keep this marriage together that you guys were never happy in.
令人费解的是，为什么你们如此努力地维持这段你们从未幸福过的婚姻。
Like, never.
就像，从来没有。
Because I felt that I was primarily responsible for her unhappiness.
因为我觉得我对她的不幸负有主要责任。
That's not true, Dad.
那不是真的，爸爸。
Father Well, I'm just telling you.
父亲好吧，我只是告诉你。
You're asking me a question.
你在问我一个问题。
I'm giving you an answer.
我给你一个答案。
I know.
我知道。
I just don't want you to feel that way.
我只是不想让你有这样的感觉。
Well, I mean healthy people don't feel unhappy without a reason.
嗯，我的意思是健康的人不会无缘无故地感到不快乐。
Yeah.
是的。
But unhealthy people-- Father Yeah.
但不健康的人——父亲 是的。
And there it was, the reason my dad stayed with my mom for so long.
这就是我爸爸和妈妈在一起这么久的原因。
He didn't see her as being different from a normal person.
他并没有觉得她和正常人有什么不同。
He wasn't even thinking about it that way.
他甚至没有这样想。
He just saw her as his wife.
他只是把她当成自己的妻子而已。
And right or wrong, he had to stick by her.
无论对错，他都必须站在她身边。
For him, that's what it meant to be married.
对于他来说，这就是结婚的意义。
Let's say, for an example, a person, male or female, gets into drugs or alcohol.
举个例子，一个人，无论男性还是女性，吸毒或酗酒。
So you say, what did I do, maybe, to cause this person to drink?
所以你说，我做了什么，也许，让这个人喝酒？
What did I do to cause this person to become unhappy?
我做了什么让这个人变得不快乐？
To become moody?
变得喜怒无常？
To become lethargic?
变得昏昏欲睡？
To lose interest in life?
对生活失去兴趣？
And you're saying that's what happened with you?
你是说这就是你身上发生的事情？
I was convinced that I was a contributing force, yes.
我确信我是一股贡献力量，是的。
Give me half a second here.
请给我半秒钟。
Hold on.
坚持住。
At this point, my dad's other line rings.
就在这时，爸爸的另一条线响了。
And he has to take the call.
他必须接电话。
So he hands off the phone to his new girlfriend, Ruth.
于是他把电话交给了他的新女友露丝。
Yes, it's very interesting.
是的，这很有趣。
Some things I knew, some things I didn't know.
有些事我知道，有些事我不知道。
Ruth and my dad have actually dated before, 34 years ago, before he had ever met my mom.
事实上，露丝和我父亲之前就已经约会过，34 年前，当时他还没有遇见我妈妈。
They were engaged to be married, but Ruth broke it off because she hadn't felt ready.
他们原本订婚了，但露丝因为觉得还没有准备好而取消了婚约。
Then a few months ago, my dad looked her number up, and things took off from there.
几个月前，我爸爸查了她的电话号码，事情就从那里开始了。
Were you surprised when my dad called you up?
当我爸爸给你打电话时，你感到惊讶吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
I just went, "How come you're calling?" And he goes, "Well, I'm divorced." I go, "Is it final?" And he goes, "Yes." I go, "Are you sure?" Because I didn't want to get into anything like that, you know?
我只是问：“你怎么打电话来了？”他说：“好吧，我离婚了。”我问：“最终确定了吗？”他说：“是的。”我说：“你确定吗？”因为我不想卷入这样的事情，你知道吗？
And he goes, "Yes, definitely.
他说：“是的，当然。
It's final." And so I go, "OK, well, then come around some time.
这是最终决定。” 于是我说：“好吧，那你找个时间过来吧。
And I'd like to hear what happened." And he said, "Oh, I'm only two miles away." So I go, "Well, then you can take me out to dinner."
我想听听发生了什么事。”他说，“哦，我只有两英里远。”所以我说，“好吧，那么你可以带我出去吃晚饭。”
Ruth is really, really nice.
露丝真的非常非常好。
But the thing that gets me is how much she seems to like my dad.
但令我着迷的是她似乎有多么喜欢我爸爸。
Now, because of her, he has this whole new life.
现在，因为她，他有了全新的生活。
My days are totally different.
我的日子完全不同了。
I wake up and there's breakfast on the table.
我醒来，发现桌上已经有早餐了。
I get a phone call from somebody during the day-- "How are you doing, love?" I'll call the person up, I'll say, you know, "I have to go to here, or there, or Timbuktu.
白天我接到某人的电话——“你好吗，亲爱的？”我会打电话给那个人，我会说，你知道，“我必须去这里，或者那里，或者廷巴克图。
You want to come along?" "Oh, sure." It's normal.
你想一起去吗？” “哦，当然。” 这很正常。
Yeah.
是的。
Normal is fine.
正常就好了。
Starlee Kine For the first time, my dad is discovering what it's like being with someone you like, someone you respect and who respects you, someone who is nice to you.
Starlee Kine 我爸爸第一次发现和一个你喜欢的人、一个你尊重的人、一个尊重你的人、一个对你好的人在一起是什么感觉。
My mom seems much happier these days too.
我妈妈这些天似乎也开心多了。
When I talk to her, it's like a huge burden has been lifted from her shoulders.
当我和她说话时，就好像她肩上的一个巨大的负担被卸下了。
In August, Ruth and my dad are going to Germany on vacation.
八月份，露丝和我爸爸要去德国度假。
It's my dad's first trip out of the country.
这是我爸爸第一次出国旅行。
He doesn't even have a passport.
他甚至没有护照。
When I ask him which name he'll be putting on it, Norman or Richard, he just laughs and says, "Either one."
当我问他要给它起哪个名字时，诺曼还是理查德，他只是笑着说：“选一个。”
Starlee Kine.
斯塔莉·凯恩.
Credits Ira Glass Well, our program is produced today by Sarah Koenig and myself with Alex Blumberg, Diane Cook, Wendy Dorr, and Jane Golombisky.
感谢 Ira Glass 嗯，我们的节目今天由 Sarah Koenig 和我本人以及 Alex Blumberg、Diane Cook、Wendy Dorr 和 Jane Golombisky 制作。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Elizabeth Meister runs our website.
伊丽莎白·梅斯特 (Elizabeth Meister) 负责运营我们的网站。
Production help from Todd Bachmann and Kelsey Dilts.
托德·巴赫曼 (Todd Bachmann) 和凯尔西·迪尔茨 (Kelsey Dilts) 为制作提供帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our website, www.thisamericanlife.org, where you can listen to our programs for absolutely free.
[致谢] 我们的网站 www.thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中完全免费收听我们的节目。
Recently, we've actually noticed on eBay the This American Life secret decoders that we were offering a few years back on our program are now selling for over $150 each.
最近，我们实际上注意到，几年前我们在 eBay 上的节目中提供的 This American Life 秘密解码器现在每个售价超过 150 美元。
And I've got to say-- not to drive the price down or anything-- at our website, thisamericanlife.org, you can get the decoder plus four of our old shows that have secret coded messages in them for a third of the price.
我必须说，不是为了压低价格或其他任何东西，在我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org，您可以以三分之一的价格获得解码器以及我们的四个旧节目，其中包含秘密编码信息。
And the proceeds benefit public radio instead of some guy in Kalamazoo.
这些收益有利于公共广播电台，而不是卡拉马祖的某个人。
You can download audio of our program at audible.com/thisamericanlife.
您可以在 audible.com/thisamericanlife 下载我们节目的音频。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight for our program by Mr. Torey Malatia, who reminded me just this morning--
[资金来源] Torey Malatia 先生对我们项目的 WBEZ 管理监督，他今天早上提醒我——
Well, you know you don't really have the kind of body on a man that I find really the most attractive.
嗯，你知道你的身材并不是我认为最有吸引力的男人。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
John Gottman Will you shut up and let me finish?
约翰·戈特曼 你能闭嘴让我说完吗？
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
Oh, I don't get to finish until you finish, is that it?
哦，在你完成之前我不会完成，是吗？
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。