242: Enemy Camp - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #242 | July 18, 2003 242: Enemy Camp Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 242 集 | 2003 年 7 月 18 日 242：敌营 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass Here's the story the way we usually like it.
序言 艾拉·格拉斯 这是我们通常喜欢的故事。
There's this guy, and he's back behind enemy lines.
就是这个家伙，他回到了敌后。
Maybe he's dropped there in the middle of the night.
也许他是在半夜掉到那里的。
Maybe he sneaks in under the border.
也许他偷偷溜进了边境。
Whatever, he's there.
不管怎样，他就在那里。
He's been there for a while, months, years maybe.
他在那里已经有一段时间了，也许是几个月，也许是几年。
He's in disguise, operating on our behalf.
他乔装打扮，代表我们行事。
No one suspects.
没有人怀疑。
No one can tell.
没有人能说清楚。
He looks and acts just like them.
他的外表和行为就像他们一样。
And then, they're in their midst for so long, speaking their language, eating their food, breathing their air, watching their TV shows and reading their newspapers, something happens to him.
然后，在他们中间呆了这么久，说他们的语言，吃他们的食物，呼吸他们的空气，看他们的电视节目，读他们的报纸，他发生了一些事情。
He starts to change.
他开始改变。
He starts to become more like them.
他开始变得更像他们了。
And then, when it's time for him to strike, to launch his mission against them, he hesitates.
然后，当他该出击、向他们发起任务时，他却犹豫了。
He's not sure who he sympathizes with anymore.
他已经不确定自己到底同情谁了。
It's a very romantic idea, this idea of what it means to live inside the enemy's camp.
这是一个非常浪漫的想法，这个想法意味着生活在敌人的营地里意味着什么。
But sometimes this is the way it really happens.
但有时事情确实就是这样发生的。
Today on our radio program we have that story happening to several different people in several different places in several different ways.
今天，在我们的广播节目中，我们看到这个故事以几种不同的方式发生在几个不同地方的几个不同的人身上。
True stories from WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life distributed by Public Radio International.
这是来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的真实故事，由国际公共广播电台发行。
Each week on our program we choose some subject, bring you documentaries, interviews, short fiction, found tape, found writing, anything we can think of on that subject.
在我们的节目中，我们每周都会选择一些主题，为您带来纪录片、访谈、短篇小说、找到的磁带、找到的写作，以及我们能想到的有关该主题的任何内容。
I'm Ira Glass, today on our program, Life Behind Enemy Lines, our show in four acts.
我是艾拉·格拉斯，今天参加我们的节目《敌后生活》，我们的节目有四幕。
Act One, Confession.
第一幕，忏悔。
In that act, the true story of a fixer for the Catholic Church and how he came to sympathize with the people that he was sent to deceive.
在那一幕中，讲述了一位天主教堂操纵者的真实故事，以及他如何同情他被派去欺骗的人们。
Act Two, Blood Agent, how microscopic beings inside you and me can control our thoughts and minds, no kidding.
第二幕，血液特工，你我体内的微观生物如何控制我们的思想和思想，别开玩笑了。
Act Three, Sleeping With Your Enemy, in which we ask the question, whose side is your girlfriend on?
第三幕，与你的敌人同眠，我们问一个问题，你的女朋友站在哪一边？
Whose?
谁？
And Act Four, Yet Another Ineffective Road Map For World Leadership.
第四幕，又一个无效的世界领导力路线图。
In that act, two political enemies try to hang out on each other's turf, get closer to each other, try to become friends.
在那一幕中，两个政敌试图在彼此的地盘上闲逛，拉近彼此的距离，试图成为朋友。
What happens?
会发生什么？
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, Confession.
第一幕，忏悔。
This is the story of a young priest who is sent out on a series jobs by church administrators to squelch some problems.
这是一个年轻牧师的故事，他被教堂管理者派去执行一系列工作，以解决一些问题。
And spending time out among the people, he finds it harder and harder to keep doing his job.
当他花时间与人群相处时，他发现继续做自己的工作变得越来越困难。
Carl Marziali tells the tale from Los Angeles.
卡尔·马齐亚利 (Carl Marziali) 讲述了洛杉矶的故事。
Patrick Wall was just really wanted to be at 26.
帕特里克·沃尔真的很想回到26岁。
He was a monk studying theology at St. John's Monastery in rural Minnesota.
他是一名修道士，在明尼苏达州乡村的圣约翰修道院学习神学。
He lived in a quiet room facing the lake.
他住在一间面向湖的安静的房间里。
He looked forward to a life of study and prayer.
他期待着学习和祈祷的生活。
It was late summer, 1991.
那是 1991 年夏末。
The first day that school started out, pretty uneventful, went to morning prayer at seven o'clock like normal.
开学第一天，平安无事，七点钟照常去晨祷。
Went down for breakfast like normal.
像往常一样下去吃早餐。
Went back up to my room.
回到我的房间。
Was literally brushing my teeth when there was a knock on my door, which is extremely out of the ordinary.
当我正在刷牙时，有人敲门，这非常不寻常。
And it was Abbot Jerome Tyson.
这是方丈杰罗姆·泰森。
Well the Abbot is a very quiet guy, and he usually never went up on that floor of the monastery.
方丈是个非常安静的人，他通常从不上寺院的那一层楼。
So he says, "May I come in." "Yes, Father Abbot, no problem." So he comes in, sits down, and I've got my books out.
于是他说：“我可以进来吗？” “是的，方丈神父，没问题。”于是他进来，坐下来，我就把书拿出来了。
I've got class in ten minutes.
十分钟后我就要上课了。
What's up?
这是怎么回事？
And he said, "Well, Father Dan Ward has told me that you would be a good person for this particular job.
他说：“嗯，丹·沃德神父告诉我，你会是这份特殊工作的最佳人选。
And we have a situation over in St. Mary's hall that we need to be a faculty resident."
我们在圣玛丽大厅遇到了一个情况，我们需要成为一名教员住院医师。”
The faculty resident is the live-in counsellor at the college dorm.
教职员是大学宿舍的住宿辅导员。
The campus at St. John's includes a university.
圣约翰学院的校园包括一所大学。
I said "Well I'd love to be a faculty resident someday.
我说：“好吧，我很想有一天成为一名住院医师。
I think that's a great idea." And he said, "No, today." And when I asked Abbot Jerome specifically what it was for, what was going on, he said, "Well, I can't tell you that."
我认为这是个好主意。”他说：“不，今天。”当我具体询问修道院院长杰罗姆（Jerome）这是为什么，发生了什么时，他说：“好吧，我不能告诉你。”
We had numerous sexual abuse cases that had been popping up.
我们发现了许多性虐待案件。
So ultimately there's only one conclusion that can be drawn, that there was an allegation that they must have thought somewhat credible or probable.
所以最终只能得出一个结论，那就是他们一定认为有一项指控是可信的或可能的。
And they needed to pull that particular monk and off I went.
他们需要拉住那个特定的和尚，然后我就走了。
That afternoon, Wall moved his stuff out of his room and into the freshman dorm.
那天下午，沃尔把他的东西搬出了自己的房间，搬进了新生宿舍。
His instructions were simple, put the kids at ease and don't say anything about the monk you're replacing.
他的指示很简单，让孩子们放松，不要谈论任何关于你要取代的和尚的事情。
He organized a pizza party for the students.
他为学生们组织了一场披萨派对。
He told them he was taking over as faculty resident but that he couldn't say why.
他告诉他们他将接任驻院教员，但他无法说出原因。
There were no questions.
没有人提问。
Wall didn't know it then, but he was being tested.
沃尔当时并不知道，他正在接受考验。
Unfortunately for him, he passed.
对他来说不幸的是，他通过了。
His dream was to be a monk as he understood monks to be, devout and learned men who live in monasteries.
他的梦想是成为一名僧侣，就像他所理解的僧侣一样，住在修道院里的虔诚而博学的人。
By showing a knack for damage control, he put himself on a less spiritual path.
通过表现出控制损害的技巧，他让自己走上了一条不那么精神的道路。
Before long, the Abbot appointed him to a sexual abuse response team and sent him to the church of St. Elizabeth's in the town of Hastings.
不久，方丈任命他加入性虐待应对小组，并将他送到黑斯廷斯镇的圣伊丽莎白教堂。
He was replacing a pastor who had been withdrawn for what the monastery called "a credible allegation." Wall arrived at St. Elizabeth's on February 2, 1993.
他正在接替一位因修道院所谓的“可信指控”而被撤职的牧师。沃尔于 1993 年 2 月 2 日抵达圣伊丽莎白教堂。
Replacing a pastor is not easy.
更换牧师并不容易。
People in a parish tend to get attached to their priest.
教区里的人们往往会对他们的牧师产生依恋。
Replacing a disgraced pastor is harder.
取代一个名誉扫地的牧师更加困难。
A lot of people believe their priest can do no wrong, and they are not shy about telling his replacement.
许多人相信他们的牧师不会做错事，而且他们并不羞于告诉他的继任者。
They were very forward and forthright and angry.
他们非常前卫、直率、愤怒。
And they said, "You know Father, I'm really sad that you're here.
他们说：“父亲，你知道，你在这里我真的很难过。
I'm really sorry that you had to come because we really liked the other monk.
我真的很抱歉你必须来，因为我们真的很喜欢另一个和尚。
And we don't think he should have been removed." And that was it.
我们认为他不应该被除名。”就是这样。
And then I said, "I'm really sorry that that particular monk had to be removed, and I'm here because my abbot asked me to be here." I tried to be as candid and simple as possible, but I felt taken back.
然后我说：“我真的很抱歉那个和尚必须被除掉，我来这里是因为我的住持要求我来这里。”我试图尽可能坦率和简单，但我感到很困惑。
And I felt sad from the very beginning.
而我从一开始就感到悲伤。
And I didn't enjoy that experience.
我不喜欢那种经历。
At first, Wall tried to raise morale.
起初，沃尔试图鼓舞士气。
He told parishioners what he himself had been told, that the alleged abuse took place, a., some time ago, and b., somewhere else.
他告诉教区居民他自己也被告知的情况，即所谓的虐待行为发生在 a. 不久前，b. 在其他地方。
But it wasn't long before victims at St. Elizabeth's began coming forward.
但不久之后，圣伊丽莎白教堂的受害者就开始挺身而出。
They would show up unannounced at the rectory, or in the church after mass, and ask to speak to him in private.
他们会在没有事先通知的情况下出现在教区长官邸，或者在弥撒结束后出现在教堂，并要求与他私下交谈。
Then they would start with a tiny revelation.
然后他们会从一个小小的启示开始。
It's unforgettable.
令人难忘。
It's absolutely unforgettable when they start to tell you.
当他们开始告诉你时，绝对令人难忘。
And they only tell you very small, cryptic little things.
他们只告诉你非常小、神秘的小事情。
There are code words for everything.
一切事物都有暗语。
And they broach the subject to see what you're going to do with it and to see if you're going to actually believe them.
他们提出这个话题是为了看看你会用它做什么，看看你是否真的相信他们。
And obviously I'm 27 years old.
显然我已经 27 岁了。
I'm not exactly sure what to do with it emotionally.
我不太确定在情感上该如何处理它。
I really had no idea what to do with it.
我真的不知道该怎么办。
So how did you deal with it when the victim or victims came forward and told you about what had happened?
那么，当受害者站出来告诉你发生的事情时，你是如何处理的呢？
Do you try to comfort them?
你会试着安慰他们吗？
Do you try to tell them that-- I mean what do you do?
你是否试图告诉他们——我的意思是你做了什么？
Do you try to restore their faith in the church?
你是否尝试恢复他们对教会的信心？
Or do you just listen and write up a complaint and send it on?
或者您只是倾听并写下投诉并发送出去？
You don't even write up a complaint.
你连投诉都不写。
Basically you get a few of the facts, and then you pass that on to the diocese.
基本上你得到了一些事实，然后你将其传递给教区。
And honestly, unfortunately it's easy to deal with because these people never go to church again because they really view that person as representing God.
老实说，不幸的是，这很容易处理，因为这些人再也不会去教堂了，因为他们真的认为那个人代表上帝。
So it's hard for them to publicly ever celebrate or to practice their faith again.
因此，他们很难再次公开庆祝或实践他们的信仰。
So they just disappear honestly.
所以他们就老老实实地消失了。
Did you ever wonder whether you should make a special effort when they came to you, beyond the effort that you might make to convince somebody else to come back to the Church?
你有没有想过，当他们来找你时，你是否应该做出特别的努力，而不仅仅是你说服别人回到教会的努力？
To do something more for these victims or to offer them counseling or something to try to make up for what had happened?
为这些受害者做更多的事情，或者为他们提供咨询，或者尝试弥补已经发生的事情？
It's a difficult situation because you really need to remain neutral.
这是一个困难的情况，因为你确实需要保持中立。
And your natural inclination, especially as priests, is to be sympathetic and to heal.
你的自然倾向，尤其是作为牧师，是同情和治愈的。
But there's no way that you're going to be allowed to be part of the healing process because ultimately you're part of the defendant.
但你不可能被允许参与康复过程，因为最终你是被告的一部分。
You are the institution that brought about the hurt.
你是造成伤害的机构。
And so you really have to put your professional hat on and keep an arm's distance.
所以你真的必须戴上你的职业帽子并保持一臂距离。
Wall survived the scandal at St. Elizabeth's, and he helped a superior survive it too.
沃尔在圣伊丽莎白学院的丑闻中幸存下来，他也帮助一位上级度过了难关。
He never told parishioners about the allegations in their parish, and the stories he was hearing in private never became public.
他从未告诉教区居民有关教区的指控，他私下听到的故事也从未公开。
After serving a year at St. Elizabeth's, Wall thought he would come back to the monastery.
在圣伊丽莎白修道院服务一年后，沃尔认为他会回到修道院。
But near the end of his term, he received a letter from the Abbot instructed him to report to another parish, St. Bernard's.
但在任期即将结束时，他收到了院长的一封信，指示他到另一个教区圣伯纳德教区报到。
The monk there had been having an affair and paying for it with church money.
那里的修道士有外遇，并用教堂的钱来偿还。
This was not the assignment Wall had in mind, but part of him was flattered.
这并不是沃尔想要的任务，但他心里有些受宠若惊。
I felt pretty good about it because all of a sudden, I'm 28 years old and I'm an administrator of a parish.
我对此感觉很好，因为突然之间，我已经 28 岁了，并且成为了一个教区的管理员。
I'm being turned loose as the boss.
我作为老板的身份被解除了。
That's a compliment as far as I'm concerned.
就我而言，这是一种恭维。
And I really felt I was doing the right thing.
我真的觉得我做的是正确的事。
Not long after Wall arrived at St. Bernard's, an agent from the IRS knocked on his door.
沃尔到达圣伯纳犬学院后不久，美国国税局的一名特工就敲开了他的门。
The agent presented a bill, payable immediately, for $600,000 in back taxes, interest and penalties for undeclared profits from a church-run lottery.
该代理人提出了一份应立即支付的账单，其中包括 60 万美元的欠税、利息以及对教会经营的彩票未申报利润的罚款。
The business manager was not available to answer questions because he had been the other person in the affair and had been removed along with the monk.
该业务经理无法回答问题，因为他是这起事件的另一人，并与僧人一起被驱逐。
Wall had to take a crash course in bookkeeping to pay the IRS.
为了向国税局缴纳税款，沃尔不得不参加簿记速成班。
The rest of his time at St. Bernard's, Wall did what every priest does.
在圣伯纳德教堂的剩余时间里，沃尔做了每个牧师都会做的事情。
He celebrated mass, performed weddings and funerals, baptized babies.
他庆祝弥撒、主持婚礼和葬礼、为婴儿施洗。
And he heard confessions, including those of other priests.
他还听到了忏悔，包括其他牧师的忏悔。
Despite the headlines, the percentage of priests who have abused minors is relatively low.
尽管成为头条新闻，但虐待未成年人的牧师比例相对较低。
Celibacy is another story.
独身则是另一回事。
In a recent Los Angeles Times poll, only one third of priests said they do not waver from the celibate life.
在《洛杉矶时报》最近的一项民意调查中，只有三分之一的牧师表示他们不会动摇独身生活。
After a while, Wall stopped thinking of broken vows as something foreign to his world.
过了一段时间，沃尔不再认为违背誓言对他的世界来说是陌生的。
Once you see enough people fall, and once you hear enough confessions of different priests, you look at yourself in the mirror and you say, am I really any different?
一旦你看到足够多的人跌倒，一旦你听到足够多不同牧师的忏悔，你就会看着镜子里的自己，你会说，我真的有什么不同吗？
And the chances of me maintaining a celibate way of life without failure along the way are so low that ultimately, either I have to change or the system needs to change.
我保持独身生活方式而不失败的机会是如此之低，以至于最终，要么我必须改变，要么系统需要改变。
What about-- there must be lot of priests who believe in being priests and have decided that the rule of celibacy is nonsense, and so are willing to lead a double life of sorts.
怎么样——一定有很多牧师相信自己是牧师，并认为独身规则是无稽之谈，因此愿意过某种双重生活。
Was that something that you considered?
这是你考虑过的吗？
No, that's really not my personality.
不，这真的不是我的性格。
I'm a terrible liar.
我是个可怕的骗子。
I turn red.
我脸红了。
I'm just really bad.
我只是真的很糟糕。
And I had seen priests who maintained heterosexual relationships with women.
我也见过与女性保持异性关系的牧师。
And I saw the effects of it because it's a life of contradiction.
我看到了它的影响，因为这是一种矛盾的生活。
Because the relationship is there, it's exclusive, but you can't profess it and everyone around you knows what's going on.
因为这种关系是存在的，它是排他性的，但你不能承认它，而且你周围的每个人都知道发生了什么。
And that's not happiness.
那不是幸福。
That's not a true coming together.
这不是真正的聚在一起。
I just couldn't see myself doing that.
我只是看不到自己这样做。
That's just not me.
那不是我。
After St. Bernard's, the assignments kept coming.
圣伯纳犬之后，作业不断出现。
The next one was an affair between a priest and a nun.
下一个是牧师和修女之间的风流韵事。
After that, a new parish where a teacher had abused a student and the priest was living with his housekeeper.
此后，在一个新的教区，一名教师虐待了一名学生，而牧师则与他的管家住在一起。
Four years, four parishes, four scandals.
四年，四个教区，四起丑闻。
There are good, dedicated priests out there, but they're not the ones who get replaced.
那里有优秀、奉献的牧师，但他们不是被取代的人。
By the very nature of his job, Wall was acquiring a skewed and depressing view of the priesthood.
由于他的工作性质，沃尔对神职人员产生了一种扭曲和令人沮丧的看法。
Did you ever ask not to be given those assignments?
您是否曾要求不要接受这些任务？
Yeah, I did.
是的，我做到了。
And I specifically asked to be able to come back to the prep school and teach.
我特别要求能够回到预科学校教书。
But the needs of the monastery were so great at that point that again, it was only going to be another year.
但当时修道院的需求是如此之大，以至于又过了一年。
I was only going to have to go to St. Bernard's for another year.
我只需要再去圣伯纳犬学校呆一年。
So it sounds like a bad construction deal, two more weeks.
所以这听起来像是一个糟糕的建筑交易，还有两周。
Give me two more weeks and we'll be done.
再给我两周时间，我们就完成了。
And it just kept going on.
而且这种情况一直持续着。
It kept going on.
它一直持续着。
Meanwhile, the monks he replaced were getting exactly what Wall himself had asked for.
与此同时，他所取代的僧侣们得到的正是沃尔本人所要求的。
They were going back to the monastery, permanently.
他们要永远回到修道院。
I'd run across them at community meetings and whenever we had chapter votes and all that.
我会在社区会议上以及每当我们进行分会投票之类的时候遇到它们。
And it's hard not to be judgmental.
很难不做出评判。
The other thing I found hard was that my whole career path was driven by other people's mistakes.
我发现另一件困难的事情是我的整个职业道路都是由其他人的错误驱动的。
And that's the last thing I ever expected in monastic life.
这是我在修道院生活中最不想发生的事情。
I really expected to work in a parish for a year, to go off to grad school, come back, teach, coach football at the university.
我真的很希望能在一个教区工作一年，然后去读研究生，然后回来，在大学教书、担任橄榄球教练。
And to live a pretty darn good life, a balance between prayer, and teaching, and working as a teacher.
过着非常美好的生活，在祈祷、教学和教师工作之间取得平衡。
So they changed my career path.
所以他们改变了我的职业道路。
They changed my whole trajectory in life.
他们改变了我的整个人生轨迹。
Without fully realizing it, Wall had been initiated into a brotherhood of priests known informally as fixers or cleaners.
在没有完全意识到这一点的情况下，沃尔已经加入了一个牧师兄弟会，非正式地称为修理工或清洁工。
They replace problem priests, they hide things in the archives, they reassure the faithful.
他们取代有问题的牧师，他们将事情隐藏在档案中，他们让信徒放心。
In short, they make it all go away.
简而言之，他们让一切都消失了。
Visually, he was perfect for the job.
从视觉上看，他非常适合这份工作。
He was barrel-chested, a former offensive lineman on the St. John's football team.
他胸肌发达，曾是圣约翰足球队的进攻前锋。
He was young, friendly.
他很年轻，很友善。
He was the anti-stereotype of a troubled monk.
他是一个反传统形象的陷入困境的僧侣。
The Abbott couldn't have found a better prospect if he had picked a model out of a catalog.
如果雅培从目录中挑选了一个模型，他不可能找到更好的前景。
But Wall did more than just PR.
但沃尔所做的不仅仅是公关。
He became familiar with the law of the church called canon law, specifically with the different archives canon law sets up for storing and hiding information.
他熟悉了被称为教会法的教会法，特别是教会法为存储和隐藏信息而设立的不同档案馆。
First is a historical archives, which is just a names, dates, people, those kinds of things.
首先是历史档案，里面只有名字、日期、人物之类的东西。
Then you have the secret archives.
然后你就有了秘密档案。
The secret archives, is that literally what they're called, the secret archives?
秘密档案馆，这就是他们所说的秘密档案馆吗？
I mean why were they set up?
我的意思是他们为什么成立？
They're set up for the protection of individuals.
它们是为了保护个人而设立的。
So that the bishop has the responsibility to take things that would be consider scandalous, things that might hurt individuals' reputations, and to be able to place them there so they wouldn't easily be exposed.
因此主教有责任把那些被认为是可耻的、可能损害个人名誉的事情收起来，并能够将它们放在那里，这样它们就不会轻易暴露。
OK, when you call it the secret archives though, it makes it sound sinister.
好吧，当你称其为秘密档案时，听起来很险恶。
It makes it sound like it's there for the protection, to really protect the Church.
这听起来像是为了保护，真正为了保护教会。
I'm not saying that's what it is, but that's how it sounds.
我并不是说事情就是这样，但听起来就是这样。
I mean what really is the purpose of these so called secrets?
我的意思是这些所谓的秘密的真正目的是什么？
Why can't everything be in the personnel records and then some items just be labeled "Confidential" or whatever.
为什么不能将所有内容都记录在人事记录中，然后将某些项目标记为“机密”或其他什么。
Well you have to do give Rome credit.
好吧，你必须给予罗马信任。
I mean they have wonderful procedure.
我的意思是他们有很棒的程序。
These are things that have worked out for centuries.
这些都是几个世纪以来一直有效的事情。
And that has always been the secret to one of the defenses of the Church.
这一直是教会防御的秘密之一。
If you don't know what you're asking for, they don't have to produce it.
如果您不知道自己要什么，他们就不必提供。
Did you ever-- when you were working for the Church, cleaning up these situations of abuse and having to tell parishioners some of the facts but not all of the facts about what was going on-- did you ever feel complicit in the cover up of all of this?
当你为教会工作，清理这些虐待情况，并不得不告诉教区居民一些事实，但不是全部事实时，你是否曾经感到自己是掩盖这一切的同谋？
I have some regrets, but I think I did it in good faith because, as I was taught and as I believe, that was my role, to help the Church in the long run and to be obedient to what I was asked to do.
我有些遗憾，但我认为我是出于善意这样做的，因为正如我所受的教导和我所相信的那样，这就是我的角色，从长远来看帮助教会并服从我被要求做的事情。
And it's only later on that, as I had greater experience, I couldn't support it any longer.
直到后来，我的阅历丰富了，我才支持不下去了。
And I felt that if I was going to stay, I was going to not only support it, but I was going to get deeper into it.
我觉得如果我要留下来，我不仅会支持它，而且会更深入地参与其中。
I was going to be asked to do other assignments to follow pedophiles.
我将被要求做其他任务来追踪恋童癖者。
I was going to be asked to be on the finance council to try to figure out ways to mitigate the huge financial cost of childhood sexual abuse by priests and the religious.
我将被要求加入财务委员会，试图找到方法来减轻神父和宗教人士儿童性虐待所造成的巨大经济成本。
And I remember having an epiphany and sitting on the porch at St. Mary's in Stillwater.
我记得坐在斯蒂尔沃特圣玛丽教堂的门廊上顿悟了。
And that's when I came to the conclusion that this is pretty much going to be my career path.
就在那时我得出结论，这几乎将成为我的职业道路。
I'd be there for another year or two as the administrator.
我会在那里再担任一两年的管理员。
And then I would go on to another assignment.
然后我会继续执行另一项任务。
And I just couldn't do it any longer.
我再也做不到了。
After four years of deceiving the faithful about the extent of priestly misconduct, of protecting the institution over the health and welfare of the victims, of covering for the perpetrators and letting the problem fester, Patrick Wall decided he was on the wrong side.
四年来，帕特里克·沃尔在牧师不当行为的严重程度上欺骗了信徒，保护了该机构的受害者的健康和福利，为肇事者提供了掩护，并让问题进一步恶化，帕特里克·沃尔认为自己站在了错误的一边。
On July 31, 1998, Wall quit the priesthood.
1998年7月31日，沃尔辞去神职。
He was 33 years old.
他当时 33 岁。
Leaving was difficult.
离开是很困难的。
If you want to leave honorably, you need permission, which doesn't come easily or quickly.
如果你想体面地离开，你需要获得许可，而这并不容易或很快。
It took more than a year in Wall's case.
沃尔的案子花了一年多的时间。
Then, once you're out, there are practical challenges, like trying to get a job with a Master of Theology on your resume.
然后，一旦你出去，就会遇到实际的挑战，比如试图找到一份简历上有神学硕士学位的工作。
In the end, it was his experience as a fixer that translated best to the real world.
最后，他作为调解员的经验最能体现在现实世界中。
Wall read an Op-Ed in the LA Times by John Manly, an attorney who sues the Church on behalf of sexual abuse victims.
沃尔在《洛杉矶时报》上阅读了约翰·曼利 (John Manly) 发表的一篇专栏文章，他是一位代表性虐待受害者起诉教会的律师。
He essentially separated himself amongst all the different attorneys in saying that we need to protect the sheep and not the shepherd.
他基本上将自己与所有不同的律师区分开来，说我们需要保护羊而不是牧羊人。
It's not the problem of the victims.
这不是受害者的问题。
It's not the problem of the particular perpetrators per se or some particular issue like homosexuality or whatever.
这不是特定肇事者本身的问题，也不是同性恋等特定问题的问题。
The problem is within the institution itself.
问题出在机构本身内部。
By this point, Wall was convinced that lawsuits were the only way to reform the Church.
至此，沃尔确信诉讼是改革教会的唯一途径。
He called Manly and offered to help.
他打电话给曼利并表示愿意提供帮助。
Soon they were on the phone constantly.
很快他们就不断地打电话。
Wall took him step by step through Church bureaucracy.
沃尔带领他一步步穿越教会的官僚机构。
Manly was amazed.
曼莉很惊讶。
John didn't know all the different documents that are out there.
约翰不知道所有不同的文件。
And then John would be working on things, and he'd call me up and say, "Dude, what do I do with this?
然后约翰会做一些事情，他会打电话给我说：“伙计，我该怎么处理这个？
What does this mean?
这意味着什么？
What am I supposed to do with it?
我该怎么办？
What are other things?
还有什么其他的东西呢？
Where else can I look?" And I remember I think he was quite surprised when I showed him the penal code of canon law and exactly what we need to ask for.
我还能去哪里看？”我记得当我向他展示教会法的刑法以及我们需要要求的内容时，我认为他感到非常惊讶。
He just couldn't believe that it was there, that they would have that level of sophistication.
他只是不敢相信它就在那里，他们竟然有如此复杂的程度。
Wall started working for Manly's law firm full time in October of 2002.
沃尔于 2002 年 10 月开始在曼利律师事务所全职工作。
Using his knowledge of Latin and Italian, he translates and interprets Church records.
他利用自己的拉丁语和意大利语知识翻译和解释教会记录。
He helps the firm identify and request key documents like psychological assessments of priests from the secret archives.
他帮助公司识别并索取关键文件，例如秘密档案中对牧师的心理评估。
The fact that he switched sides, that he's fighting the Church, doesn't seem to trouble him.
他改变立场、与教会作对这一事实似乎并没有困扰他。
He believes he's doing what God wants him to do, which is what he's always believed.
他相信他正在做上帝要他做的事，这也是他一直相信的。
There's another part to Wall's job at the firm, which doesn't have anything to do with case law.
沃尔在公司的工作还有另一部分，与判例法没有任何关系。
Last week, he stayed on the phone with a man for an hour and a half, listening to him talk about the priest who abused him and who might still be hurting other people.
上周，他和一名男子通了一个半小时的电话，听他谈论虐待他的牧师以及可能仍在伤害其他人的事。
Wall finds himself talking to victims about all kinds of things, everything he was not allowed to talk about before back when he was a priest.
沃尔发现自己与受害者谈论各种各样的事情，所有他在担任牧师之前不被允许谈论的事情。
I feel I really do pastoral work when I'm working with victims every day on every single issue.
当我每天在每一个问题上与受害者一起工作时，我觉得我真的在做牧师工作。
Before you were part of a holy order, and now you're working with a bunch of lawyers.
之前你是骑士团的一员，现在你和一群律师一起工作。
And it's hard to know these days where priests belong on the ethical ladder, but most people know exactly where to put lawyers.
如今很难知道牧师在道德阶梯上属于什么位置，但大多数人确切地知道该把律师放在哪里。
And so it's just odd to hear you talk about this work being more fulfilling in some ways than what you were doing before.
因此，听到你说这项工作在某些方面比你以前所做的更有成就感，这很奇怪。
Well we're dealing with people at the lowest ebb of where they're at.
好吧，我们正在与处于最低潮的人们打交道。
They're dealing with the greatest pain they've ever experienced.
他们正在应对他们所经历过的最大的痛苦。
And one of the greatest things that we find is that they can no longer participate in the sacramental life of the Church because of the seven sacraments, the one thing that's really clear is that it takes a priest to administer the sacrament.
我们发现的最重要的事情之一是，由于七件圣礼，他们不能再参与教会的圣礼生活，真正清楚的一件事是，需要一名牧师来管理圣礼。
And every sacrament is either through touching or it's through breath, through words.
每一个圣礼要么通过触摸，要么通过呼吸，通过言语。
It's in close proximity to the priest.
距离牧师很近。
And that is the symbol of their abuse.
这就是他们虐待的象征。
So we're dealing with some of the most damaged people within the church, and it is a very fulfilling ministry, I find, in being pastoral to be with them.
因此，我们正在与教会内一些最受伤害的人打交道，我发现，与他们一起牧养是一个非常充实的事工。
Because honestly, we're one of the few symbols of hope that they have.
因为老实说，我们是他们拥有的少数希望的象征之一。
Patrick
帕特里克
Wall is married now.
沃尔现在已经结婚了。
He and his wife have a two year old daughter, who they plan to send to Catholic school.
他和妻子有一个两岁的女儿，他们计划将她送到天主教学校。
They all go to mass every Sunday.
他们每周日都去参加弥撒。
Carl Marziali attends mass with his family in Los Angeles.
卡尔·马齐亚利 (Carl Marziali) 与家人在洛杉矶参加弥撒。
Coming up, Enemies On Our Turf, controlling the minds of ants, or rats, and of you and me.
即将推出，我们地盘上的敌人，控制蚂蚁或老鼠以及你和我的思想。
This is not some whacked out conspiracy theory my friend, this is science.
我的朋友，这不是什么阴谋论，这是科学。
Proof in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续时，来自芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台的一分钟证明。
It's This American Life .
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose some theme, bring your a variety of different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，每周我们的节目都会选择一些主题，为您带来关于该主题的各种不同类型的故事。
Today's program, Enemy Camp, stories of what it means to work behind enemy lines.
今天的节目《敌营》讲述了在敌后工作的意义。
We've arrived at Act Two of our program.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act Two, Blood Agent.
第二幕，血液特工。
Nature, it turns out, is full of enemy agents, living behind enemy lines, doing their work.
事实证明，大自然充满了敌方特工，他们生活在敌后，做着他们的工作。
Parasites, they're literally parasites.
寄生虫，顾名思义，就是寄生虫。
Carl Zimmer has written a book about the different strategies that these parasites use to survive.
卡尔·齐默（Carl Zimmer）写了一本关于这些寄生虫生存的不同策略的书。
And it makes for weirdly compelling reading.
这使得阅读变得异常引人注目。
For one thing, who knew how prevalent they were?
一方面，谁知道它们有多流行？
Most creatures on Earth are living inside an enemy.
地球上的大多数生物都生活在敌人的体内。
And they are trying to fight that enemy, trying to survive, trying to outwit.
他们正在努力与敌人战斗，努力生存，努力智取。
Just to give people a sense of the range of things that different parasites do, could you tell the story of the parasite that gets into ants, the lancet fluke?
为了让人们了解不同寄生虫所做的一系列事情，您能否讲述一下进入蚂蚁体内的寄生虫（柳叶刀吸虫）的故事？
Sure, well the lancet fluke is a kind of flat worm.
当然，柳叶刀吸虫是一种扁虫。
It starts out as an egg on the ground.
它一开始是地上的一个鸡蛋。
And a snail comes along and eats the egg.
一只蜗牛走过来吃掉了鸡蛋。
And it irritates the snail system so eventually it coughs it up.
它会刺激蜗牛的系统，所以最终它会把它咳出来。
And so there you have this clump of snail goo with a parasite in it.
所以你就得到了这团蜗牛粘液，里面有寄生虫。
And while it's disgusting to us, to an ant there's nothing more delicious than snail goo.
虽然它对我们来说很恶心，但对蚂蚁来说，没有什么比蜗牛粘液更美味的了。
So the ant comes along, and it eats the snail goo and the parasite along with it.
于是蚂蚁出现了，它吃掉了蜗牛的粘液和寄生虫。
So now you have these flukes inside the ant.
现在蚂蚁体内就有了这些吸虫。
And once they recognize that they're inside the ant, they start doing some strange things.
一旦它们意识到自己在蚂蚁体内，它们就会开始做一些奇怪的事情。
Sort of as the sun is starting to go down while the other ants are probably heading back to the nest, it gets this uncontrollable urge to climb upward.
有点像太阳开始下山，而其他蚂蚁可能正在返回巢穴时，它就会产生一种无法控制的向上爬的冲动。
It wants to climb up.
它想爬上去。
And what it generally does is it climbs up a blade of grass.
它通常会爬上一片草叶。
And what's the advantage to the parasite for the ant to be up there?
蚂蚁在上面对寄生虫有什么好处呢？
Well it's not too obvious at first.
嗯，一开始并不太明显。
I mean it's not like the parasite wants to take in a better view.
我的意思是，寄生虫并不想看到更好的视野。
The thing is that there are these grazing mammals, sheep, cows.
问题是有这些食草哺乳动物，绵羊，牛。
And that's one of their favorite grazing times, towards the end of the day.
这是他们最喜欢的放牧时间之一，一天快结束时。
So the ant goes up there.
于是蚂蚁就到那里去了。
Sheep comes along, chews on the grass.
羊走过来，嚼着草。
The ant gets eaten, chewed up, dies.
蚂蚁被吃掉、咀嚼、死亡。
But the flukes inside the ant, they can survive the digestive acids in the sheep's stomach.
但蚂蚁体内的吸虫，却能在羊胃里的消化酸中存活下来。
And actually sheep are where they like to live.
事实上，羊是它们喜欢居住的地方。
They are their final host.
他们是他们的最后主人。
What's so amazing about that is not just the control that the parasite is having over the ant.
令人惊奇的不仅仅是寄生虫对蚂蚁的控制。
That life cycle that you're describing is so complicated.
你所描述的生命周期是如此复杂。
It's having to go through three different animals over the course of its normal life cycle.
它在正常的生命周期中必须经历三种不同的动物。
Yeah, there are actually some parasites that go through six or seven different animals to get through their life cycle.
是的，实际上有一些寄生虫需要通过六七种不同的动物才能完成其生命周期。
It's mind boggling.
真是令人难以置信。
It's really hard to talk about without ascribing an intentionally to them, which they don't have consciousness.
如果不将其归因于他们，真的很难谈论他们没有意识。
They don't have brains in any way.
他们根本就没有脑子。
It's hard for us to even understand what they're doing without putting that on them.
如果不把这些放在他们身上，我们甚至很难理解他们在做什么。
Yeah I think because in a sense they are using us, or using other animals or other hosts in such an intentional way.
是的，我认为是因为从某种意义上说，他们正在利用我们，或者以这种故意的方式利用其他动物或其他宿主。
And they seem to know so much.
而且他们似乎知道很多。
How does, say, a tapeworm inside a fish know that if it makes it flick and flail in a certain way that it'll be easier for a bird to see it so they can get inside that bird where it wants to be?
比如说，鱼体内的绦虫如何知道，如果它让它以某种方式轻弹和连枷，那么鸟儿就会更容易看到它，这样它们就可以进入鸟体内它想去的地方？
It's amazing.
太棒了。
And not only do they not have brains, a lot of them don't even have nerves.
而且他们不仅没有大脑，很多人甚至连神经都没有。
So it's just this sinister chemical wisdom they have.
所以这就是他们拥有的这种险恶的化学智慧。
And it seems like all the parasites break down into two different groups.
似乎所有寄生虫都分为两个不同的组。
There are the kinds that actually get inside a host and then kill it off in their drive to survive in there.
有些种类的动物实际上会进入宿主体内，然后为了在其中生存而杀死它。
And then there are others, which actually just live inside and are happily living inside forever.
还有其他一些，它们实际上只是生活在里面，并且永远幸福地生活在里面。
They want the host to survive.
他们希望宿主活下来。
Could you just tell the example of the creature that eats the fish's tongue?
你能举个吃鱼舌头的生物的例子吗？
Yeah, this is a particularly creepy one.
是的，这是一个特别令人毛骨悚然的事情。
The parasite in question is called an isopod, which is a kind of crustacean.
这种寄生虫被称为等足类动物，是甲壳类动物的一种。
It looks like a little pill bug or something but it lives in the water.
它看起来像一个小药丸虫什么的，但它生活在水中。
And what it does is it swims into the mouth of a snapper, a fish.
它所做的就是游进鲷鱼的嘴里。
And when it's in there, it eats that fish's tongue.
当它进入那里时，它会吃掉鱼的舌头。
It just devours the tongue completely.
它只是完全吞噬了舌头。
But just the tongue.
但只是舌头。
It stops there.
它停在那里。
But now this isopod, this parasite, does something very weird.
但现在这种等足类动物，这种寄生虫，做了一些非常奇怪的事情。
It turns around so it's facing front.
它转过身来，面向前方。
And hunkers down exactly where the tongue used to be.
然后蹲在原来舌头所在的位置。
So if you look in one of these fish's mouths, you see this tongue that has these little eyes on the end of it.
因此，如果你观察其中一条鱼的嘴，你会看到这条舌头的末端有这些小眼睛。
It's amazing.
太棒了。
And what scientists think then happens is that the fish can then use the parasite as its tongue.
科学家们认为，随后发生的事情是，鱼可以使用寄生虫作为它的舌头。
It'll go out, catch some food, catch a fish.
它会出去，抓一些食物，抓一条鱼。
And will crush up the food on the back of this parasite.
并会压碎这种寄生虫背上的食物。
The fish I guess doesn't mind too much if it can still get its meal.
我想如果鱼还能吃到饭的话，它不会太介意。
And the fish can then get back to its life.
然后鱼就可以恢复生机。
Some of these stories just are such gross out stories on a visceral level.
其中一些故事在内心层面上实在是太恶心了。
Well, it's funny because it disturbs us when we talk about that when it comes to parasites, but I mean why doesn't it disturb when we talk about a lion?
嗯，这很有趣，因为当我们谈论寄生虫时它会打扰我们，但我的意思是为什么当我们谈论狮子时它不会打扰我们？
We name football teams after lions.
我们以狮子的名字命名足球队。
But we don't name football teams after tapeworms.
但我们不会以绦虫来命名足球队。
You don't have the Chicago Tapeworms or something like that.
你没有芝加哥绦虫之类的东西。
We don't want to think about it.
我们不想考虑它。
But we admire these predators.
但我们钦佩这些掠夺者。
But what are these predators doing?
但这些掠食者在做什么呢？
These predators are taking advantage of these other life forms.
这些掠食者正在利用这些其他生命形式。
They're just eating them from the outside I guess you could say.
我想你可以说他们只是从外面吃它们。
But I mean to my mind, it's just a lot more cool when they're on the inside trying to figure out how to how to make this work.
但我的意思是，在我看来，当他们在内部试图找出如何使这项工作成功时，这会更酷。
You write, "parasitologists tend to fall in love with the parasites they study." Talk about one of the ones that you fell in love with.
你写道，“寄生虫学家往往会爱上他们研究的寄生虫。”谈论您爱上的其中一位。
I was sort of amazed by blood flukes.
我对血吸虫有点惊讶。
They cause this disease called bilharzia or schistosomiasis.
它们引起这种称为血吸虫病或血吸虫病的疾病。
And you have to be careful if you were to swim in the pond, say in Tanzania, chances are there are these blood flukes swimming around.
如果你要在池塘里游泳，比如在坦桑尼亚，你必须小心，很可能有这些血吸虫在周围游动。
And they look like a little missile.
它们看起来像一枚小导弹。
They're whipping around through the water looking for human skin.
它们在水中快速游动，寻找人类皮肤。
And they plunge in.
他们一头扎进去。
They have these little chemicals on their surface that let them burrow their way into your skin like it was butter or something.
它们的表面有这些小化学物质，可以让它们像黄油或其他东西一样钻进你的皮肤。
And then they will travel through the arteries.
然后它们将穿过动脉。
And they might go through your body like three times before they end up in the place they want to be, which is your liver.
它们可能会穿过您的身体三遍，然后才到达它们想要到达的地方，即您的肝脏。
And blood flukes come in males and females.
男性和女性都有血吸虫。
And females are long and thin.
而且雌性又长又瘦。
And the males have a funny shape.
雄性的形状很有趣。
They're like a canoe with little spikes in the trough.
它们就像一艘独木舟，槽里有小尖刺。
And once they find a mate, the female will lock in to the trough of the male.
一旦找到配偶，雌性就会锁定雄性的食槽。
And they'll just lock in together.
他们就会锁定在一起。
And once they've done that, they're ready to go.
一旦他们做到了这一点，他们就准备好了。
They decide, this is who I want to be with for the rest of my life in this human host.
他们决定，这就是我想在这个人类宿主中度过余生的人。
And so they are riding through your body, locked together on this journey, this romantic tunnel of love I guess.
所以它们穿过你的身体，在这段旅程中锁在一起，我猜是这条浪漫的爱隧道。
You write that it's the most monogamous couple on Earth.
你写道这是地球上最一夫一妻制的夫妇。
Yeah I mean they are incredibly monogamous.
是的，我的意思是他们是令人难以置信的一夫一妻制。
These parasites aren't just faithful to each other.
这些寄生虫不仅彼此忠诚。
They are physically connected to each other for their whole life.
他们一生都在身体上相互联系。
And a scientist will sometimes try to pull them apart, see what happens.
科学家有时会尝试将它们分开，看看会发生什么。
They crawl right back together again.
他们又爬回到一起。
Thinking about this as much as you have, do you start to see everything as being parasites?
尽可能多地思考这个问题，你是否开始将一切视为寄生虫？
I see a lot of things as being like parasites.
我觉得很多东西就像寄生虫一样。
Parasites are the most successful life form on Earth.
寄生虫是地球上最成功的生命形式。
And there could be as many as three parasites for every one free living species.
每一种自由生活的物种可能有多达三种寄生虫。
It's hard to say.
很难说。
And if you're not a species that is living inside another thing, then you're a species with something living inside of you.
如果你不是一个生活在另一个事物内部的物种，那么你就是一个生活在你体内的事物的物种。
Is one side winning?
一方获胜吗？
Carl Zimmer I'd say the parasites have the upper hand because they're just doing so very well.
Carl Zimmer 我想说寄生虫占据上风，因为它们做得很好。
Sure, yeah, I mean they have the most species.
当然，是的，我的意思是他们拥有最多的物种。
They're getting around all these defenses.
他们正在绕过所有这些防御。
I mean there are things they do that either we don't know how they do it, or if we know how they do it, we can't reproduce it.
我的意思是，他们做的有些事情要么我们不知道他们是如何做的，要么即使我们知道他们是如何做的，我们也无法复制它。
We just stand in awe of it.
我们只是对它感到敬畏。
I know but we know about them.
我知道，但我们了解他们。
They don't know about us.
他们不了解我们。
We're the ones with the brains and the thinking and the consciousness.
我们是有大脑、有思想、有意识的人。
Well then maybe you're over-selling your brain.
那么也许你过度出卖了你的大脑。
I mean the brain is a wonderful thing but these parasites are able to pull the strings in those brains in a lot of cases.
我的意思是，大脑是一个奇妙的东西，但在很多情况下，这些寄生虫能够操纵这些大脑。
Say for example, a rat.
举个例子，一只老鼠。
Rats are very smart animals.
老鼠是非常聪明的动物。
I mean they know how to learn.
我的意思是他们知道如何学习。
They know how to figure out their surroundings.
他们知道如何了解周围的环境。
But there is a parasite called toxoplasma, a single cell parasite.
但有一种寄生虫叫做弓形虫，是一种单细胞寄生虫。
And they pick it up on the ground.
他们把地上的东西捡起来。
And when it gets into them, they suddenly lose their fear of the smell of cats.
当它进入他们体内时，他们突然不再害怕猫的气味。
Otherwise they're totally the same.
否则它们是完全一样的。
Then the cat eats them.
然后猫吃掉它们。
And then toxoplasma gets into its final host, which is a cat.
然后弓形虫进入它的最终宿主，即猫。
So even though you have a brain, you're still being pushed toward your doom by this single cell parasite.
因此，即使你有大脑，你仍然会被这种单细胞寄生虫推向灭亡。
I think I'm on the parasite's side when it comes to getting a bad rap.
我想，当谈到受到不好的批评时，我是站在寄生虫一边的。
I'm their PR man.
我是他们的公关人员。
Because Mr. Zimmer, at some point we're all going to have to choose sides in this war.
因为齐默先生，在某些时候我们都必须在这场战争中选择立场。
Speaking for the other humans, I want to say you're either with us or against us.
代表其他人类，我想说你们要么支持我们，要么反对我们。
Well, it's funny, I have not gotten seriously sick in my life, knock on wood.
好吧，有趣的是，我这辈子还没有生过重病，敲木头。
And I have actually gone to places where there are a lot of parasites around in order to report on how people are dealing with them.
事实上，我去过周围有很多寄生虫的地方，以报告人们如何处理它们。
And I didn't get sick.
而且我没有生病。
I was really scared, but I didn't get sick.
我真的很害怕，但我没有生病。
I didn't get malaria.
我没有得疟疾。
I didn't get river blindness.
我没有得河盲症。
I didn't get sleeping sickness.
我没有得昏睡病。
Wait a second.
等一下。
Are you saying this because they could sense that you are in league with them?
你这么说是因为他们感觉到你与他们有勾结吗？
Who knows?
谁知道？
Maybe they think I'm here to serve their purpose.
也许他们认为我来这里是为了达到他们的目的。
Carl Zimmer, his book, the perfect reading material if you ever want to have a long talk with an eight year old boy, is Parasite Rex.
卡尔·齐默（Carl Zimmer）的书《寄生霸王龙》（Parasite Rex）是如果您想与八岁男孩进行长谈的话，这是完美的阅读材料。
[MUSIC - "I LIVE OFF YOU" BY X-RAY SPEX]
[音乐 - X-RAY SPEX 的“I LIVE OFF YOU”]
Act Three, Sleeping With Your Enemy.
第三幕，与敌人同眠。
We have this story about what is hidden inside us, the secret agents within from writer Etgar Keret.
作家 Etgar Keret 讲述了我们内心隐藏的秘密特工的故事。
Among other things, he says it is a story about his real life girlfriend.
除其他外，他说这是一个关于他现实生活中的女朋友的故事。
Actor Matt Malloy reads it for us.
演员马特·马洛伊为我们朗读。
A warning to listeners before we begin.
在我们开始之前向听众发出警告。
This story mentions the existence of sex.
这个故事提到了性的存在。
Surprised?
惊讶吗？
Of course I was surprised.
我当然很惊讶。
You go out with a girl, first date, second date, a restaurant here, a movie there, always just matinees.
你和一个女孩出去，第一次约会，第二次约会，这里一家餐馆，那里一场电影，总是只是日场。
You start sleeping together.
你们开始一起睡觉。
Sex is dynamite, and pretty soon there's feeling too.
性是炸药，很快也会有感觉。
And then one day she arrives all weepy.
然后有一天，她带着泪水来了。
And you hug her and tell her to take it easy, everything's OK.
然后你拥抱她并告诉她放轻松，一切都好。
She says she can't stand it anymore, she has this secret, not just a secret, something really awful, a curse, something she's been wanting to tell you the whole time but she didn't have the guts.
她说她再也受不了了，她有这个秘密，不仅仅是一个秘密，一些非常可怕的东西，一个诅咒，一些她一直想告诉你但她没有勇气的东西。
This thing, it's been weighing down on her like a ton of bricks, and now she's got to tell you.
这件事，一直像一吨重的砖头压在她身上，现在她必须告诉你。
She's simply got to.
她必须这样做。
But she knows that as soon as she does, you'll leave her.
但她知道，一旦她这样做，你就会离开她。
And you'd be absolutely right too.
你也绝对是对的。
And right after that, she starts crying all over again.
就在那之后，她又开始哭泣。
"I won't leave you," you tell her.
“我不会离开你，”你告诉她。
"I won't.
“我不会。
I love you." You may look a little upset, but you're not.
我爱你。”你可能看起来有点沮丧，但事实并非如此。
And even if you are, it's about her crying, not about her secret.
即使你是，这也是关于她的哭泣，而不是关于她的秘密。
You know by now that these secrets that always make a woman fall to pieces are usually nothing.
你现在知道了，这些总是让女人崩溃的秘密通常都不算什么。
And you hug them and say it's all right.
然后你拥抱他们并说没关系。
It's OK.
没关系。
Or shhh, if they don't stop.
或者嘘，如果他们不停止的话。
"It's something really terrible," she insists, as if she's picked up on how nonchalant you are about it even though you tried to hide it.
“这真的很可怕，”她坚持说，仿佛她发现了你对这件事的漠不关心，尽管你试图隐藏它。
"In the pit of your stomach it may sound terrible," you tell her, "but that's mostly because of the acoustics.
“在你的内心深处，这听起来可能很糟糕，”你告诉她，“但这主要是因为音响效果。
As soon as you let it out, it won't seem nearly as bad.
一旦你把它放出来，它看起来就不会那么糟糕了。
You'll see." And she almost believes it.
你会看到的。”她几乎相信了。
She hesitates a minute and then asks, "What if I told you that at night I turn into a heavy, harry man with no neck, with a gold ring on his pinky?
她犹豫了一分钟，然后问道：“如果我告诉你，到了晚上我会变成一个没有脖子、小指上戴着金戒指的笨重哈利男人，你会怎样？
Would you still love me?"
你还会爱我吗？”
And you tell are of course you would.
你当然会告诉你。
What else can you say, that you wouldn't?
你还能说什么呢？
She's simply trying to test you, to see whether you love her unconditionally.
她只是想考验你，看看你是否无条件地爱她。
And you've always been a winner at tests.
而且你总是在测试中获胜。
Truth is, as soon as you say it, she melts.
事实是，只要你说出来，她就会融化。
And you screw right there in the living room.
你就在客厅里搞砸了。
And afterwards, you lie there holding each other tight, and she cries because she's so relieved.
然后，你们躺在那里，紧紧地拥抱在一起，她哭了，因为她如释重负。
And you cry too.
而你也哭了。
Go figure.
去算算吧。
And unlike all the other times, she doesn't get up and leave.
与其他时候不同的是，她没有起身离开。
She stays there and falls asleep.
她呆在那里睡着了。
You lie awake, looking at her beautiful body, at the sunset outside, at the moon appearing as if out of nowhere, at the silvery light flickering over her body, stroking the hair on her back.
你醒着地躺着，看着她美丽的身体，看着外面的夕阳，看着不知从哪里出现的月亮，看着她身上闪烁的银光，抚摸着她背上的头发。
And within less than five minutes, you find yourself lying next to this guy.
不到五分钟，你就发现自己躺在这个家伙旁边。
This short, fat guy.
这个又矮又胖的家伙。
And the guy gets up and smiles at you and gets dressed awkwardly.
那家伙站起来对你微笑，然后穿得很尴尬。
He leaves the room and you follow him spellbound.
他离开了房间，你迷迷糊糊地跟着他。
He's in the den now.
他现在在书房里。
His thick fingers fiddling with the remote, zapping to the sports channels, championship football.
他粗大的手指摆弄着遥控器，调到体育频道、足球锦标赛。
When they miss a pass, he curses the TV.
当他们传球失败时，他就会咒骂电视。
When they score, he gets up and does this little victory dance.
当他们得分时，他站起来跳起这小小的胜利之舞。
After the game, he tells you that his throat is dry and his stomach is growling.
比赛结束后，他告诉你他的喉咙很干，肚子咕咕叫。
He could really use a beer and a nice hunk of meat.
他真的需要一杯啤酒和一块美味的肉。
Well done if possible with lots of onion rings.
如果可能的话，加很多洋葱圈就做得很好。
But he'd settle for some pork chops too.
但他也愿意吃一些猪排。
So you get in the car and take him to this restaurant that he knows about and you don't.
所以你上车带他去这家他知道而你不知道的餐厅。
This new twist has you worried.
这个新的转折让你担心。
It really does, but you have no idea what to do about it.
确实如此，但您不知道该怎么办。
Your command and control centers are down.
你的指挥和控制中心瘫痪了。
You shift gears at the exit in a daze.
你在出口处茫然地换档。
He's right there beside you in the passenger seat tapping that gold ring pinky of his.
他就在你旁边的乘客座位上，敲着他小指上的金戒指。
At the next intersection, he rolls down his window, winks at you and yells at this chick who's thumbing a ride.
在下一个十字路口，他摇下车窗，向你眨眼，并对这个搭便车的小妞大喊大叫。
"Hey baby, wanna play nanny goat and ride in the back?"
“嘿宝贝，想扮演山羊保姆并骑在后面吗？”
Later the two of you pack in the steak and the chops and the onion rings till you're about to explode.
后来你们两个把牛排、排骨和洋葱圈放进去，直到你们快要爆炸了。
And he enjoys every bite and laughs like a baby.
他享受每一口食物，笑得像个婴儿。
And all that time you keep telling yourself, it's got to be a dream, a bizarre dream, yes, but definitely one that you'll snap out of any minute.
在这段时间里，你一直告诉自己，这一定是一个梦，一个奇怪的梦，是的，但绝对是一个你随时都会醒来的梦。
On the way back, you ask him where to let him off, and he pretends not to hear you.
回来的路上，你问他在哪里下车，他假装没听见。
But he looks despondent.
但他看起来很沮丧。
So you wind up taking him back home with you.
所以你最终还是把他带回家了。
It's almost 3:00 AM.
已经快凌晨 3:00 了。
"I'm gonna hit the sack," you tell him.
“我要解雇了，”你告诉他。
And he waves to you, stays in the beanbag chair staring at the fashion channel.
他向你挥手，坐在豆袋椅上盯着时尚频道。
You wake up the next morning exhausted with a slight stomach ache.
第二天早上，您醒来时感到精疲力竭，并伴有轻微的胃痛。
And there she is in the living room still dozing.
她还在客厅里打瞌睡。
By the time you've had your shower, she's up.
等你洗完澡，她就起来了。
She hugs you guiltily, and you're too embarrassed to say anything.
她愧疚地抱住你，你却不好意思说什么。
Time goes by and you're still together.
时间流逝，你们还在一起。
The sex just gets better and better.
性爱变得越来越好。
And she's not so young anymore, neither are you, and suddenly you find yourself talking about a baby.
她不再那么年轻了，你也不再那么年轻了，突然你发现自己在谈论一个婴儿。
And at night, you and the fatso guy hit the town like you've never done in your life.
晚上，你和那个胖子以你一生中从未做过的方式进城。
He takes you to restaurants and bars you didn't even know existed.
他带你去你甚至不知道存在的餐馆和酒吧。
And you dance on tables together, break plates like there's no tomorrow.
你们一起在桌子上跳舞，打破盘子，就像没有明天一样。
He's really nice, the fatso guy, a little crass, especially with women.
他真的很好，是个胖子，但有点粗鲁，尤其是对女人来说。
Sometimes coming out with things that make you just want to die.
有时会说出一些让你只想死的事情。
But other than that, he's great fun to be with.
但除此之外，和他在一起很有趣。
When you first met him, you didn't give a damn about football, but now you know every team.
当你第一次见到他时，你根本不关心足球，但现在你了解每支球队。
And whenever one of your favorites wins, you feel like you've made a wish and it's come true, which is a pretty exceptional feeling for someone like who hardly knows what he wants most of the time.
每当你最喜欢的人获胜时，你都会感觉自己已经许下了一个愿望，而且它已经实现了，对于大多数时候几乎不知道自己想要什么的人来说，这是一种非常特殊的感觉。
And so it goes.
事情就是这样。
Every night you fall asleep with him struggling to stay awake for the early scores on ESPN.
每天晚上你入睡时，他都会努力保持清醒，观看 ESPN 的早期比分。
And in the morning, there she is, the beautiful, forgiving woman that you love too.
早上，她就在那里，那个你也爱的美丽、宽容的女人。
Till it hurts.
直到痛为止。
Matt Mallow, reading Etgar Keret's story, "Fatso." Keret is the author of a book of evocative, fable-like stories of every day life called The Bus Driver Who Wanted To Be God.
马特·马洛（Matt Mallow）正在阅读埃特加·凯雷特（Etgar Keret）的故事“胖子”。凯雷特写了一本名为《想成为上帝的公交车司机》的书，书中讲述了日常生活中令人回味的寓言故事。
His story was translated into English by Miriam Shlesinger.
他的故事被米里亚姆·施莱辛格翻译成英文。
[MUSIC - "SHE'S GOT EVERYTHING" BY THE KINKS]
[音乐 - KINKS 的“她拥有一切”]
Act Four, this is the story of people trying to take the high road.
第四幕，这是人们试图走上正路的故事。
They are enemies, political enemies living in each other's midst trying to get along.
他们是敌人，政治敌人，生活在彼此中间，试图和睦相处。
It takes place in a mostly conservative town of just 5,000 people in upstate New York.
故事发生在纽约州北部一个只有 5,000 人的保守小镇。
Blue Chevigny has the story.
蓝色切维尼有一个故事。
Kathy and Joy can't quite recall the first time they talked to each other.
凯西和乔伊不太记得他们第一次交谈是什么时候。
But the one thing they're both very clear on is that their friendship started some time after they'd already seen each other dozens of times, protesting on opposite sides of Main Street, on opposite sides of an issue.
但他们都非常清楚的一件事是，他们的友谊是在他们已经见过数十次之后开始的，当时他们在大街的两侧、在一个问题的对立面进行抗议。
It was probably some comment one of us made about the other one's sign or something along that line.
这可能是我们中的一个人对另一个人的标志或类似的东西发表的一些评论。
But you don't usually hold signs.
但你通常不会举牌子。
You usually held the flag and waved, so I don't know.
你平时举着旗子挥手，所以我不知道。
It could have been about that the fact that people would often drive by and beep.
可能是因为人们经常开车经过并发出嘟嘟声。
Remember this?
还记得这个吗？
They'd drive by and beep.
他们会开车经过并发出嘟嘟声。
And they'd either wave at Joy and flip me the bird.
他们要么向乔伊挥手，然后把鸟扔给我。
Or they'd beep and they'd wave at me and flip Joy the bird simultaneously.
或者他们会发出嘟嘟声，向我挥手，同时翻转小鸟乔伊。
Kathy, an ordained minister in her late 40s with short salt and pepper hair, was protesting the war in Iraq every night at 7:00, standing with signs in the central square of her hometown with a dozen other people since the fall of 2002 before the war began.
凯西是一名 40 多岁的牧师，留着一头椒盐色的短发。自 2002 年秋天战争爆发前起，她每天晚上 7:00 就和其他十几个人一起站在家乡的中心广场上，举着标语抗议伊拉克战争。
And across the street, from her window at work, Joy watched this night after night and got angrier and angrier.
乔伊在街对面工作的窗户里，夜复一夜地看着这一幕，变得越来越愤怒。
Joy's a blond woman in her early 30s who works at a stock photo company just down the street from the square.
乔伊是一位 30 岁出头的金发女郎，在广场对面的一家图库公司工作。
I had heard the group, Not In Our Name.
我听过“Not In Our Name”乐队。
I'd heard of them.
我听说过他们。
And I thought well, not in my name are they going to stand out there and protest against my country and my president and whatnot.
我想得很好，他们不会以我的名义站出来抗议我的国家和我的总统等等。
And so that's what inspired me.
这就是启发我的原因。
So one day, she invited her father, who also supported the war, to come out and protest the protesters.
于是有一天，她邀请同样支持战争的父亲出来抗议抗议者。
She stood across the street from them, waved a big flag and smiled at passersby.
她站在他们的街对面，挥舞着一面大旗，并对路人微笑。
She tried to go there every night, sometimes with one or two others, but often alone.
她尝试每晚都去那里，有时和一两个人一起去，但通常是独自一人。
Over time, it got more and more intense.
随着时间的推移，它变得越来越激烈。
Kathy, the anti-war one, started coming to the town square by herself at all hours of the day to collect for UNICEF Iraq as an act of solidarity with the Iraqi people and the United Nations, which had refused to support the war.
反战者凯西开始全天独自一人来到城镇广场，为联合国儿童基金会驻伊拉克办事处募捐，以声援伊拉克人民和拒绝支持战争的联合国。
In response, Joy started coming to her spot, in the mornings before work as well as after, to counteract Kathy's near constant presence.
作为回应，乔伊开始在早上上班前和下班后来到她的工作地点，以抵消凯西几乎持续存在的影响。
And it was during one of those times, when they were both standing by themselves, that they struck up a friendship.
正是在其中一次，当他们都独自站立时，他们建立了友谊。
This is Joy.
这是乔伊。
She's come over and stood with me.
她走过来和我站在一起。
She's even borrowed my flag one day.
有一天她甚至借了我的旗帜。
I have a big three by five flag on a pole.
我的杆子上挂着一面三乘五的大旗。
To burn.
燃烧。
Kathy Why did I borrow the flag?
凯西 为什么我要借旗帜？
Because I really believed that it's important for the protesters to hold on to the flag.
因为我真的相信抗议者持有旗帜很重要。
How did you feel about that?
你对此有何感想？
Joy It was fine with me.
乔伊 我觉得很好。
It's the flag, why not share it?
这是旗帜，为什么不分享呢？
It's a symbol of everything that we hold dear.
它是我们所珍视的一切的象征。
And don't we want to share that with everybody?
难道我们不想与大家分享吗？
They got to know each other better as the weeks went by.
几周过去了，他们对彼此越来越了解。
They found that they had a surprising number of things in common, not just the flag.
他们发现他们有很多共同点，而不仅仅是旗帜。
They both had family members in the military who were in active duty in Iraq.
他们的家人都有在伊拉克服役的军人。
And they would fill each other in on any news about them when they saw each other each day.
每天见面时，他们都会互相告知有关他们的任何消息。
Joy came to know Kathy's favorite lunch and coffee spots on Main Street.
乔伊逐渐了解了凯西在大街上最喜欢的午餐和咖啡店。
They had a similar sense of humor.
他们有相似的幽默感。
But the thing that they both felt the most strongly was their pride.
但他们俩感受最强烈的就是他们的骄傲。
That in spite of their political differences, they were able to bridge the gap between them and make peace unlike the rest of the world.
尽管存在政治分歧，但他们能够弥合彼此之间的分歧，实现与世界其他地区不同的和平。
I think that we have found a lot of common ground.
我认为我们已经找到了很多共同点。
I think that we're doing in this small town between us what I'd like to see our political leaders do more of.
我认为我们正在我们之间的这个小镇上做的事情是我希望看到我们的政治领导人做更多的事情。
Not that they didn't have their problems with each other.
并不是说他们彼此之间没有问题。
At one point our conversation, Joy, the pro-war one, listed off her current complaints about Kathy and the other anti-war protesters.
在我们的谈话中，支持战争的乔伊列出了她目前对凯西和其他反战抗议者的抱怨。
They had taken over the village square, trampling and killing the grass and leaving their peace signs behind when they went for dinner or left overnight.
他们占领了村庄的广场，践踏和杀死草地，并在吃晚饭或过夜时留下和平标志。
Kathy sat quietly through this, though you could see her seething.
凯西静静地坐着，尽管你可以看到她的怒火。
Joy just seemed spurred on by that.
乔伊似乎因此而受到激励。
And I feel like it's disrespectful, really, to leave all that stuff there all the time people.
我觉得一直把这些东西放在那里真的是不尊重人。
You seem a little mad the way you're talking.
你说话的方式看起来有点生气。
I'm just mad in general.
我只是很生气。
Blue Chevigny Kathy went on to say she was mad because she felt like President Bush had manipulated the public into believing they had something to fear from Iraq, that he had scared the American people.
布鲁·切维尼·凯西接着说，她很生气，因为她觉得布什总统操纵公众，让他们相信他们对伊拉克有一些恐惧，他吓坏了美国人民。
So I think yes, President Bush, congratulations, you've done it.
所以我认为是的，布什总统，恭喜你，你已经做到了。
Thank [BLEEP] you.
谢谢你。
Nice language for a minister.
对于部长来说，这是一个很好的语言。
Kathy Presbyterian Church by the way.
顺便说一句，凯西长老会教堂。
Are Presbyterian ministers allowed to swear?
长老会牧师可以发誓吗？
Yes.
是的。
Kathy Ten commandments.
凯西十诫。
Don't go to [UNINTELLIGIBLE].
不要去[无法理解]。
Wait a second no. Because the ten commandments, if you look back at the original that it was written in, it's not that "Thou shalt not kill," it's "Thou shalt not murder."
等一下，不。因为十诫，如果你回顾它的原文，不是“不可杀人”，而是“不可杀人”。
Oh that's better.
哦，那更好了。
Blue Chevigny Kathy widened her eyes and shook her head.
蓝色切维尼·凯西睁大眼睛，摇摇头。
Joy continued.
乔伊继续说道。
I'll tell you what.
我会告诉你什么。
I'll tell you what Kathy, I really believe there's nothing I could say that would ever convince you.
我会告诉你什么，凯西，我真的相信我所说的话都无法说服你。
There's nothing I could say that would ever convince you because I think you've made your mind that you're against the war but no matter what.
我无法说任何话可以说服你，因为我认为你已经下定决心反对战争，但无论如何。
No matter what anybody says.
不管别人怎么说。
What if we find nuclear weapons there?
如果我们在那里发现核武器怎么办？
What if we find--
如果我们发现怎么办——
Guess what, you're right.
你猜怎么着，你是对的。
You're right about me.
你对我的看法是对的。
That wouldn't even matter to you would that they find nuclear weapons.
如果他们找到核武器，那对你来说甚至都不重要。
That they find-- so really.
他们发现——确实如此。
Right.
正确的。
Blue Chevigny And then they simply stopped talking about it.
Blue Chevigny 然后他们就不再谈论它了。
Kathy calmly stated she needed to go to get back to the square and her collecting for UNICEF.
凯西平静地表示，她需要回到广场并为联合国儿童基金会进行募捐。
They said no hard feelings, and laughed and hugged before she took off.
他们没有表示任何不满，并在她离开前笑着拥抱了她。
That was in April.
那是在四月。
US troops were still fighting their way to Baghdad.
美军仍在向巴格达奋进。
As I was leaving town that night, I thought it seemed so idyllic, these people in this little town who are able to be friends in spite of their staunchly opposed political views.
那天晚上，当我离开小镇时，我觉得这真是田园诗般的景象，这个小镇上的这些人尽管政治观点截然相反，却能够成为朋友。
Protesters from opposite camps don't usually sit down for coffee together at the end of the day.
来自对立阵营的抗议者通常不会在一天结束时坐在一起喝咖啡。
This seemed like a braver story, a story about putting yourself out on a limb more.
这似乎是一个更勇敢的故事，一个让自己更加陷入困境的故事。
In a small community, you can't ignore your opponent's in conflict, so you might as well walk across the street and shake their hand, introduce yourself, become friends.
在一个小社区里，你不能忽视对手的冲突，所以你不妨穿过马路和他们握手，介绍自己，成为朋友。
A couple of weeks after I talked to them, I called Kathy to check in and her husband answered the phone.
与他们交谈几周后，我打电话给凯西询问情况，她的丈夫接了电话。
Apparently there had been some developments since my last visit.
显然，自我上次访问以来出现了一些进展。
Kathy and Joy's ideal-seeming friendship wasn't working so ideally anymore.
凯西和乔伊看似理想的友谊不再那么理想。
I drove back up there, but this time Kathy and Joy asked to be interviewed separately.
我开车回到那里，但这次凯西和乔伊要求单独接受采访。
Remember how Joy was upset that the anti-war protesters had been trampling the grass in the town square?
还记得乔伊因反战抗议者践踏城镇广场的草地而感到多么不安吗？
Well she and a few others went to the town board and requested formally that it be reseeded.
好吧，她和其他几个人去了镇议会，正式要求重新播种。
The newly seeded area was cordoned off with yellow police tape that said "Crime Scene" on it.
新播种的区域被黄色警戒线封锁，上面写着“犯罪现场”。
The peace protesters now had to stand outside of that area.
和平抗议者现在不得不站在该地区之外。
Then one night, just before President Bush declared an end to active combat in Iraq, Kathy and Joy had a run-in.
然后一天晚上，就在布什总统宣布结束伊拉克的战斗之前，凯西和乔伊发生了争执。
Kathy was with four or five other peace viligers.
凯西和其他四五个和平守卫者在一起。
Joy was with her father, Walter.
乔伊和她的父亲沃尔特在一起。
And it was his sign about UNICEF that sent Kathy over the edge.
正是他关于联合国儿童基金会的标语让凯西陷入了崩溃的边缘。
By then she'd spent all winter, hundreds of hours, on the square collecting for UNICEF.
那时她已经花了整个冬天数百个小时在广场上为联合国儿童基金会募捐。
She'd averaged $9 an hour, a total of just under $2,000.
她平均每小时 9 美元，总共不到 2,000 美元。
They held up a sign that said, "UNICEF is a bad investment." I said "Oh Walter, come on.
他们举着一块牌子，上面写着：“联合国儿童基金会是一项糟糕的投资。”我说：“哦，沃尔特，来吧。
That's not very nice." And I turned to the adults with me and said, "I'm really angry.
这可不太好。”我转向和我一起的大人说：“我真的很生气。
You're going to have to help me with this.
你必须帮我解决这个问题。
I'm really, really angry because this feels like a personal jab at what I'm doing and I don't know what I'm going to do in response." The only advice I got was from Azim who said "follow your conscience, Kathy."
我真的非常非常生气，因为这感觉就像是对我正在做的事情的个人攻击，我不知道我会做什么回应。”我得到的唯一建议来自阿齐姆，他说“遵循你的良心，凯西。”
I could see her jaw muscles set and her facial composure become rigid.
我可以看到她的下巴肌肉绷紧，面部表情变得僵硬。
This is Azim, Kathy's friend and fellow vigiler.
这是阿齐姆，凯西的朋友和守夜同伴。
And then she half turned to me and said, "Talk me out of what I'm about to do." And I thought, oh my god, she's going to go over and assault them or start screaming or something.
然后她半转身对我说：“劝我不要做我要做的事。”我想，天哪，她会走过去袭击他们，或者开始尖叫什么的。
Don't do that Kathy.
别那样做，凯西。
But my response, "Kathy, you're a big girl and you can do whatever you feel you need to do."
但我的回答是：“凯西，你是个大女孩了，你可以做任何你觉得需要做的事情。”
The only thing that I double checked on was, "Kathy do you think that the grass seed has germinated yet?" The answer was-- my conscious said no. And I crossed the yellow ribbon and stood there, just glaring at Walter and Joy.
我唯一仔细检查的是，“凯西，你认为草籽已经发芽了吗？”答案是——我的意识说不。我越过黄丝带，站在那里，怒视着沃尔特和乔伊。
She was standing in the middle of the newly seeded grass.
她站在新播种的草丛中央。
Her fellow vigilers looked away.
她的守夜同伴把目光移开。
Joy watched from across the street.
乔伊在街对面看着。
I was just so shocked that she did it.
我对她这么做感到非常震惊。
It was like, if she was mad at me or my dad, that was kind of-- why stand on the grass?
就好像，如果她生我或我爸爸的气，那就是——为什么要站在草地上？
I mean that like an attack on the whole village if you will.
我的意思是，如果你愿意的话，就像对整个村庄的袭击一样。
That was a statement to the whole village.
这是向全村人发出的声明。
It wasn't like it was to us.
这对我们来说并不一样。
Did she associate you with the grass being reseeded?
她有没有把你和重新播种的草联系起来？
Well I did ask to have the grass reseed.
好吧，我确实要求重新播种草。
But a lot of people in the village had been asking the board to have the grass reseeded.
但村里很多人一直要求村委会重新播种草。
Within a half hour, a police car pulled up.
半个小时后，一辆警车停了下来。
It was a young officer, someone who used to mow Kathy's lawn.
那是一位年轻的警官，曾经给凯西修剪草坪。
He told her she would have to step off the grass or she'd be arrested.
他告诉她，她必须离开草地，否则就会被捕。
Soon backup arrived.
很快支援就到了。
Facing two officers, Kathy made a decision to be arrested.
面对两名警察，凯西做出了逮捕的决定。
She was driven to the town police station, charged with disorderly conduct, given a court date and sent on her way.
她被送往镇警察局，被指控扰乱治安，并确定了出庭日期，然后就被送走了。
Here's Joy again.
乔伊又来了。
She took it very, very personally instead of that it was directed-- the sign was regarding UNICEF.
她非常非常个人地认为它是针对的——这个标志是关于联合国儿童基金会的。
She felt like it was personal.
她觉得这是私人的。
At least that's what I've read in the paper.
至少我在报纸上读到的是这样的。
Since that night, Joy and Kathy haven't spoken.
从那天晚上起，乔伊和凯西就没有说过话。
At her court date, Kathy's charge was reduced to six months probation.
在出庭时，凯西的指控被减至六个月缓刑。
And since the incident, both women have avoided the town square.
事件发生后，两名女子都避开了城镇广场。
Joy's never gone back to wave her flag, and Kathy's doing most of her protesting and collecting elsewhere.
乔伊从未回去挥舞过她的旗帜，凯西的大部分抗议和集会都在其他地方进行。
Joy has seen her a few times from her car.
乔伊在车里见过她几次。
I've to catch her eye a couple times, and she sees me coming and looks the other way.
我必须与她目光对视几次，她看到我走过来，就看向别处。
What if you two ran into each other in the supermarket?
如果你们两个在超市碰见怎么办？
What do you think would happen?
你认为会发生什么？
I don't know.
我不知道。
I mean I would be like, "Hi Kathy.
我的意思是我会说，“嗨，凯西。
How are you doing?" And just talk to her.
你怎么样？”和她谈谈。
I don't know what her reaction is.
我不知道她的反应是什么。
I wouldn't even know what her reaction might be.
我什至不知道她会有什么反应。
I asked Kathy what she thinks will happen when they meet.
我问凯西，她认为他们见面时会发生什么。
I picture that she would be the bigger of the two of us and would initiate reconciliation.
我想象她会成为我们两个人中较大的一个，并会发起和解。
I do.
我愿意。
So you're not mad at her.
所以你没有生她的气。
Kathy I won't say that.
凯西 我不会这么说。
But you would accept a gesture of reconciliation?
但你会接受和解的姿态吗？
You would reconcile?
你会和解吗？
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I'm still angry.
我还是很生气。
I don't think it's rational.
我认为这不合理。
It's hard to live up to.
很难辜负。
It's hard to live up to what I wish.
很难实现我的愿望。
It's struggling to live up with the failure in myself and in the world.
它正在努力忍受自己和世界的失败。
Oh yeah, there's a big contradiction here.
哦，是的，这里有一个很大的矛盾。
I was holding a sign that said "Imagine Dialogue." And I realized there are some people I don't want to dialogue with.
我举着一块牌子，上面写着“想象对话”。我意识到有些人我不想与之对话。
I reminded Kathy what she said to me a month before about our political leaders and how she'd like to see them act more like her and Joy.
我提醒凯西一个月前她对我说过关于我们的政治领导人的话，以及她如何希望看到他们的行为更像她和乔伊。
Now that she and Joy weren't talking, she said she was appreciating the many advantages of not being world leaders.
现在她和乔伊没有说话，她说她很欣赏不成为世界领导人的许多优势。
I think sometimes you need to pull away.
我想有时候你需要抽身离开。
Joy and I have the luxury of time to do that.
乔伊和我有充裕的时间来做这件事。
The entire fate of the universe isn't resting on our shoulders so we have time to pull away so that we can come back and try again.
宇宙的整个命运并不落在我们的肩上，所以我们有时间抽离，这样我们就可以回来再试一次。
On way out of town, I interviewed some women in a local cafe.
在出城的路上，我在当地一家咖啡馆采访了一些女性。
They were opposed to the war, and thought the vigils were a good thing.
他们反对战争，并认为守夜是一件好事。
They told me, though, that I had stumbled into the cafe where I would find all the liberals.
不过，他们告诉我，我无意中走进了一家咖啡馆，在那里我可以找到所有的自由主义者。
That if I wanted to find people who were in favor of the war, I should go right next door to the diner where the clientele was all right wing.
如果我想找到支持战争的人，我应该去隔壁的餐馆，那里的顾客都是右翼分子。
They said the restaurants clearly divided up along political lines.
他们说，这些餐馆明显按照政治路线划分。
I went next door and the tables were populated with older couples.
我去了隔壁，桌子上挤满了年长的夫妇。
The manager asked if she could help me with something.
经理问她是否可以帮助我做点什么。
I asked her if would be OK to talk with some customers for a radio story.
我问她是否可以与一些顾客谈论广播故事。
She asked what the topic was, and I told her it was about the protests up the street and I was looking for people's opinions.
她问主题是什么，我告诉她这是关于街上的抗议活动，我正在寻找人们的意见。
Her eyes literally narrowed.
她的眼睛真的眯了起来。
She said, "I have no comment, and I'd rather you not bother my customers during their lunch." Then she watched me until I was out the door.
她说：“我没有意见，我希望你不要在我的顾客午餐时打扰他们。”然后她看着我，直到我出了门。
And of course, this is the way it goes.
当然，事情就是这样。
Most people don't want a fight.
大多数人不想打架。
Most people don't want to argue politics.
大多数人不想争论政治。
And so the liberals stick with the liberals, and the conservatives stick with the conservatives.
因此，自由派坚持自由派，保守派坚持保守派。
And who's got the energy for a constant meeting of the minds?
谁有精力不断地进行思想交流呢？
What's more surprising than the fact that Kathy and Joy's friendship seems to have ended is that it ever happened in the first place.
比凯西和乔伊的友谊似乎已经结束这一事实更令人惊讶的是，它首先发生过。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our website, www.thisamericanlife.org where you know you can download audio of our show at audible.com/thisamericanlife where they have public radio programs, best selling books, even The New York Times , all at audible.com.
[致谢] 我们的网站 www.thisamericanlife.org，您知道您可以在 audible.com/thisamericanlife 下载我们节目的音频，他们有公共广播节目、畅销书籍，甚至《纽约时报》，所有这些都在 audible.com 上。
This American Life is distributed by Pubic Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight by Torey Malatia, who has just one question for you.
[资金来源] WBEZ 管理由 Torey Malatia 负责监督，他只有一个问题要问您。
Hey baby, wanna play nanny goat and ride in the back?
嘿宝贝，想扮演山羊保姆并骑在后面吗？
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life .
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。