237: Regime Change - This American Life

237：政权更迭

237 · This American Life · 原文

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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #237 | April 18, 2003 237: Regime Change Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

00:00 00:00 文字记录分享此美国生活生活伙伴如何收听剧集推荐关于概述员工公告奖学金工作音乐在路上制作电台常见问题解答提交商品联系我们我们的其他节目商品关注我们生活伙伴订阅我们的时事通讯整集切换音频和文字记录同步文字记录 | 内容第 237 集 | 2003 年 4 月 18 日 237：政权更迭注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。

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Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

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Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。

Prologue Ira Glass It's This American Life from WBEZ Chicago distributed by Public Radio International.

序言 Ira Glass 《这就是美国生活》，来自芝加哥 WBEZ，由国际公共广播电台发行。

A couple weeks ago, one of the producers of our show, our senior producer Julie Snyder, was out with a bunch of friends.

几周前，我们节目的制片人之一、我们的高级制片人朱莉·斯奈德 (Julie Snyder) 和一群朋友出去了。

And they ended up in a conversation where they stumbled on this thing that had happened to all of them, though they never realized how universal it was.

他们最终在一次谈话中偶然发现了发生在他们所有人身上的这件事，尽管他们从未意识到它有多么普遍。

For all of them, back they were kids, back in the '80s, their parents got divorced and then remarried.

对于他们所有人来说，在他们还是孩子的时候，在八十年代，他们的父母离婚然后再婚。

And they all agreed the re-marriage was way harder than the divorce.

他们都同意再婚比离婚困难得多。

Divorce had come out of nothing.

离婚是无缘无故的。

There had been enough literature about the whole thing and enough books about everything that was like here's how to talk to your kids about divorce.

关于整个事情有足够多的文献，也有足够多关于一切的书籍，比如这里是如何与你的孩子谈论离婚的。

I mean, so much so that we all even had the exact-- I mean everyone had the same vocabulary about it.

我的意思是，我们甚至都拥有完全相同的词汇——我的意思是每个人都有相同的词汇。

Number one being it's not your fault.

第一，这不是你的错。

And number two being that we love you more than anything.

第二是我们爱你胜过一切。

Mommy and daddy still love you, and you're the most important thing.

爸爸妈妈仍然爱你，你是最重要的。

I mean, I remember even, I got told so many times that it's not your fault that it just started freaking me out after a while.

我的意思是，我什至记得，我被告知很多次，这不是你的错，但过了一段时间之后我就开始害怕了。

I started thinking like, it never even occurred to me that this was my fault.

我开始想，我从来没有想过这是我的错。

And, after being told so much, I started thinking, like, really?

而且，在被告知这么多之后，我开始思考，真的吗？

Maybe this is my fault.

也许这是我的错。

And in comparison, when the new husband, the new wife showed up, there hadn't been books about that.

相比之下，当新丈夫、新妻子出现时，还没有关于这方面的书籍。

People didn't know what to do with that.

人们不知道该怎么办。

Apparently there were not books about that, because we were all definitely the Guinea pigs for the re-marriages.

显然没有关于这方面的书，因为我们都绝对是再婚的小白鼠。

And it was sort of like chaos.

这有点像混乱。

Everyone sort of had different stories that were just remarkable to tell.

每个人都有不同的故事，这些故事都非常精彩。

I understand that it's a really difficult thing to go through.

我知道这是一件非常困难的事情。

And all of us have a lot of sympathy for our parents in this situation, and that they were trying to figure it out as they went along.

在这种情况下，我们所有人都非常同情我们的父母，他们在经历过程中一直在努力解决这个问题。

But the mistakes that were made were so egregious in some situations.

但在某些情况下所犯的错误是如此令人震惊。

Like for example?

比如？

Julie Snyder Like one of the girls said that her dad's secretary, all of a sudden, one morning, she woke up and came into the kitchen and saw her dad's secretary standing there.

朱莉·斯奈德就像其中一个女孩说的，她爸爸的秘书，突然，一天早上，她醒来，走进厨房，看到她爸爸的秘书站在那里。

And then she called her Mrs. Smith, as she always referred to her, and then the woman said to her, no, now you call me mommy.

然后她叫她史密斯夫人，因为她总是这样称呼她，然后那个女人对她说，不，现在你叫我妈妈。

Sure, I guess so.

当然，我想是这样。

I tend to call random women, standing at the kitchen sink in the morning, mommy.

我倾向于称呼早上站在厨房水槽旁的随机女性为“妈妈”。

So why not?

那么为什么不呢？

Mommy, the name that carries more meaning than anything for a child.

妈妈，这个名字对孩子来说比任何东西都更有意义。

I will grant you that name, congratulations.

我会给你这个名字，恭喜你。

Yeah, this is not traumatizing for me whatsoever.

是的，这对我来说并没有任何创伤。

How long after the parents are re-married, how long do people say that it took before the new person seemed like something other than an invading army?

父母再婚多久后，人们说过了多久，新人才看起来不像入侵的军队？

I actually think that for a lot of people it took for them going away, moving out of the house.

事实上，我认为对于很多人来说，他们需要离开、搬出房子。

So it could be like a decade?

那么这可能是十年吗？

It could be, like literally, until they were done growing up?

可能就像字面意思一样，直到他们长大为止？

Sure, yeah, probably until they are about 18.

当然，是的，可能直到他们18岁左右。

They never they really accepted their hearts like, this is our new family, this is the new person in our family?

他们从来没有真正接受过自己的心，比如，这是我们的新家庭，这是我们家里的新人？

I don't think so.

我不这么认为。

I don't think fully.

我想得并不完全。

There's a level of where, obviously, you accept reality.

显然，你在一定程度上接受了现实。

But when you're sort of being occupied, it's pretty hard to understand that they want love for you or that they feel love for you.

但当你有点忙的时候，很难理解他们想要你的爱或者他们感受到对你的爱。

It's a lot about just trying to get used to their relationship with your parent.

这很大程度上只是为了适应他们与你父母的关系。

It's very hard to figure out where you are in the priority list.

很难弄清楚你在优先列表中的位置。

Oh right, of course, because one of the things that they are, is not just your new parent, but they're basically a competitor for your other parent.

哦，对了，当然，因为他们不仅仅是你的新父母，而且基本上是你另一位父母的竞争对手。

In the most literal way.

以最字面的方式。

For time, and affection, and energy, and for being a priority, and everything, you really are competing.

为了时间、情感、精力、优先权以及一切，你们确实在竞争。

It's not the divorce that kills you, it's the re-marriage.

杀死你的不是离婚，而是再婚。

Just like it's not the war that's so difficult sometimes, it's the reconstruction after-- trying to build something new, trying to put a new regime in place, even if the old regime wasn't so great.

就像有时候困难的不是战争，而是战后的重建——试图建立新的东西，试图建立一个新的政权，即使旧政权不是那么伟大。

New people are jockeying for power.

新人们正在争夺权力。

It's unclear who gets what, who'll get their way on a 1,000 little issues.

目前还不清楚谁会得到什么，谁会在这 1000 个小问题上得到解决。

It's hard even if everybody really wants it to go well.

即使每个人都真心希望一切顺利，这也很难。

Was your step-dad the kind of person who launched like a hearts and minds campaign to win you all over and be super sweet to you, and do stuff with you and all that?

你的继父是不是那种发起一场攻心战役来赢得你的支持、对你超级贴心、对你做一些事情之类的人？

Yeah, he did launch a whole campaign.

是的，他确实发起了一场完整的竞选活动。

One of the things he did, which we all really enjoyed, was that he got us HBO.

他所做的一件事我们都非常喜欢，那就是他为我们带来了 HBO。

And he did away with the whole, you can't see R-movies until you're 16.

他废除了整个规则，即16岁之前不能看R级电影。

Brilliant.

太棒了。

Julie Snyder Yeah, and that I have to say, that went over big.

朱莉·斯奈德是的，我不得不说，这件事过大了。

And, oh, he cussed in front of us, which we all enjoyed.

而且，哦，他在我们面前咒骂，我们都很喜欢。

I really love my step-dad.

我真的很爱我的继父。

And there were mistakes made, but they really did a lot to reassure me, and he did a lot to love me and to provide for me.

虽然犯了一些错误，但他们确实做了很多事情来让我安心，他也做了很多事情来爱我、供养我。

I sort of feel like, maybe I even got the best you could expect.

我有点觉得，也许我什至得到了你所期望的最好的。

And I still would probably say, it was the most traumatizing experience of growing up.

我仍然可能会说，这是成长过程中最痛苦的经历。

And you still didn't accept him until you moved out?

直到搬出去你还是不接受他？

Not really, yeah.

不是真的，是的。

Ira Glass Well today in our program, regime change.

艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）今天在我们的节目中，政权更迭。

Like charity, regime change begins at home.

与慈善事业一样，政权更迭也始于国内。

We have three stories of the new people coming in, shaking things up, doing things their way.

我们有三个关于新人进来、改变现状、按照他们的方式做事的故事。

Forget about doing it in a foreign country with over 20 million people who don't speak your language and share your religion, even in the smallest possible setting, it's daunting.

别说在一个有超过 2000 万人口不讲您的语言、不分享您的宗教信仰的外国做这件事，即使是在最小的环境中，这也是令人畏惧的。

Our program today in three acts, act one, unconquerable.

我们今天的节目分三幕，第一幕，不可战胜。

In that act, the story of that one store, that one place on the corner.

在那一幕中，讲述的是街角那一家商店、那一处地方的故事。

You know what I'm talking about.

你知道我在说什么。

Every neighborhood has one.

每个街区都有一个。

Where the new owners come and go.

新主人来来去去的地方。

New businesses come and go.

新业务来来去去。

And none of them can make it work, none of them can make a profit or stay very long.

但他们中没有一个能够让它发挥作用，没有一个能够盈利或停留很长时间。

Act two, or give me death.

第二幕，不然就给我死。

The story of a political party that wants to take over a state, impose their will on the locals, and what happens when they show up in a state that they're thinking of conquering, Vermont, and meet the natives for the very first time.

讲述一个政党想要接管一个州，将自己的意志强加给当地人的故事，以及当他们出现在他们想要征服的佛蒙特州，并第一次见到当地人时会发生什么。

Act three, the heart is a lonely junta.

第三幕，心是孤独的军政府。

The story of a man reluctant to accept a very, very local regime change.

这是一个男人不愿接受非常非常地方政权更迭的故事。

Stay with us.

留在我们身边。

Act one-- unconquerable.

第一幕——不可战胜。

There's this storefront in Washington DC, it's got location, location, and location.

华盛顿特区有一家店面，它的位置、位置、还是位置。

The neighborhood is gentrifying.

该社区正在高档化。

Property values are high.

房产价值很高。

There's lots of money everywhere.

到处都有很多钱。

It's right by a bus stop.

它就在公交车站旁边。

It's 10 minutes from the subway in the most densely populated neighborhood of the city, a place called Adams Morgan.

距离地铁10分钟路程，位于该市人口最稠密的街区，一个叫亚当斯摩根的地方。

By all rights, it should succeed.

无论如何，它应该成功。

Yet every business that goes in there fails.

然而，所有进入那里的企业都失败了。

Like some colonial country that throws off every conquering nation that tries to take it.

就像某个殖民国家抛弃了每一个试图占领它的征服国家。

Katie Davis has lived a block away from that storefront since she was 10 years old and decided, once and for all, she was going to look into it.

凯蒂·戴维斯 (Katie Davis) 从 10 岁起就住在距离那家店面一个街区的地方，她决定一劳永逸地去调查一下。

Everybody in the neighborhood talks about it.

附近的每个人都在谈论这件事。

What's wrong with 1801 Columbia road?

哥伦比亚路 1801 号有什么问题吗？

It's weird.

很奇怪。

The storefront straddles the biggest intersection we've got with huge wraparound windows.

店面横跨我们拥有的最大的十字路口，有巨大的环绕式窗户。

But they're always dark.

但它们总是黑暗的。

Eight businesses have tried this space in 35 years, eight.

35 年来，有八家企业尝试过这个领域，八家。

In 1968 there was Eddie Leonard's-- incredible steak and cheese sandwiches.

1968 年，Eddie Leonard's 推出了令人难以置信的牛排和奶酪三明治。

Then--

然后——

Al bought it from Eddie.

艾尔从艾迪那里买的。

Eddie was getting old then.

那时埃迪已经老了。

And it became Al's Supreme, exact same menu.

它变成了 Al's Supreme，菜单一模一样。

Very, very greasy.

非常非常油腻。

Katie Davis Next, the Long John Silver's opened and never did well.

凯蒂·戴维斯 (Katie Davis) 接下来，长·约翰·西尔弗 (Long John Silver) 开业了，但生意一直不好。

Fish was not the appealing food at the time.

鱼在当时并不是有吸引力的食物。

So for a while, it was a Latino disco with pink walls and mirrors And then a place called Cosmos.

所以有一段时间，它是一个带有粉红色墙壁和镜子的拉丁迪斯科舞厅，然后是一个叫做 Cosmos 的地方。

And here it gets a little fuzzy.

这里有点模糊。

No one can remember the name of the next place.

没有人能记住下一个地方的名字。

Then there was a Boston Market, and a kebab place that never took.

然后还有一个波士顿市场，还有一家烤肉店，但从未被占用。

And finally, a Chinese restaurant tried its luck.

最后，一家中餐馆碰碰运气。

I don't think we could ever figure out what exactly the name was.

我认为我们永远无法弄清楚这个名字到底是什么。

Restaurant Number One or something like that maybe?

也许是一号餐厅或类似的餐厅？

Chinese Restaurant Number One is what the sign said.

招牌上写着“一号中餐厅”。

But they took it down.

但他们把它拿了下来。

And after again and again that doesn't make it, why?

但一次又一次的失败，为什么呢？

I went to see the old-timers about the store, people who've been here forever.

我去拜访了店里的老前辈，他们已经在这里呆了很久了。

Mr George Dravillas holds court in the wood paneled real estate office he opened in 1953, just a half block from the storefront in question.

乔治·德拉维拉斯 (George Dravillas) 先生在他于 1953 年开设的木镶板房地产办公室中担任法庭职务，距离相关店面仅半个街区。

Mr. Dravillas fingers through a withered school notebook pasted with tiny, I mean, minuscule real estate ads that go back decades.

德拉维拉斯先生翻阅一本枯萎的学校笔记本，上面贴着很小的，我是说，很小的房地产广告，可以追溯到几十年前。

He's had his name on at least half the leases and deeds in the neighborhood, but Mr. Dravillas has never handled any transaction at 1801 Columbia Road.

该街区至少一半的租约和契约上都有他的名字，但德拉维拉斯先生从未在哥伦比亚路 1801 号处理过任何交易。

He has a simple explanation for why any business there is doomed.

对于为什么那里的生意注定会失败，他有一个简单的解释。

The corner door is the bad thing.

角门是个坏东西。

They don't want to go through the corner door.

他们不想穿过角门。

I don't know why.

我不知道为什么。

I suggest that to open two stores and close the corner, then we'll have success.

我建议开两家店，把街角关掉，那我们就成功了。

But they don't listen.

但他们不听。

Constantine Stavropoulos has a different theory.

康斯坦丁·斯塔夫罗普洛斯有不同的理论。

He owns two successful restaurants in the neighborhood, and he's the head of our business association.

他在附近拥有两家成功的餐馆，而且他是我们商业协会的负责人。

When Constantine arrived five years ago, the neighborhood myth was that there was no daytime business.

五年前康斯坦丁来到这里时，邻居们普遍认为白天没有生意。

And then he opened his coffee shop, Tryst.

然后他开了自己的咖啡店Tryst。

People sat on the lumpy sofas and made it a hang-out.

人们坐在凹凸不平的沙发上，把这里变成了闲逛的地方。

Pretty soon, Constantine opened a 24-hour diner just two doors down, same whomping success.

很快，康斯坦丁在相隔两扇门的地方开了一家 24 小时营业的餐馆，同样取得了巨大的成功。

So the guy has instincts along with his MBA.

所以这个人除了拥有 MBA 学位之外，还拥有直觉。

And when Constantine had a chance to open his diner at 1801 Columbia Road, those instincts told him, stay away.

当康斯坦丁有机会在哥伦比亚路 1801 号开设他的餐馆时，直觉告诉他，远离。

1801 only looks like a good location, he says.

他说，1801 看起来只是一个不错的位置。

Really, it's a mirage.

真的，这是海市蜃楼。

People are at that intersection but never on that corner.

人们在那个十字路口，但从未在那个角落。

It might be, I don't know, crowd dynamics or something that sort of get people into this thinking that they don't want to hike across the street and go over there.

我不知道，这可能是人群动态或某种让人们产生这样的想法：他们不想徒步穿过街道并去那里。

So in a way, it's like this little island.

所以在某种程度上，它就像这个小岛。

You can see it, but it's a question of just getting to it.

你可以看到它，但这是一个是否能看到它的问题。

At this point, it might help if you picture the corner.

此时，想象一下拐角可能会有所帮助。

18th and Columbia Road has wide roomy streets and bus stops on three sides.

18 街和哥伦比亚路有宽阔的街道，三边都有公交车站。

There's a bank and a McDonald's that's always busy.

有一家银行和一家麦当劳，总是很忙。

To the south, there are 60 businesses crammed into the first and second floors.

南边的一楼和二楼挤满了60家企业。

All of this feeds into the intersection.

所有这些都进入交叉路口。

Just a few steps to the north, though, all retail stops, taken over by somber row-homes, a dead zone merging into dead space.

然而，向北仅几步之遥，所有的零售店都被阴暗的排屋所取代，一个死区融入了死空间。

Which brings us to the whole chicken and egg problem of how to explain this corner.

这给我们带来了如何解释这个角的整个先有鸡还是先有蛋的问题。

Do businesses fail because there's no foot traffic?

企业会因为没有人流量而失败吗？

Or is there no foot traffic because the businesses are crummy?

还是因为生意不好而没有人流量？

Gee, is it warm enough for you out there?

哎呀，外面对你来说够暖和吗？

Mention the failed storefront to Sid Drazin at Comet Liquor and Deli and be prepared to stick around for a while as he launches into his business-according-to-Sid talk.

向 Sid Drazin 提起 Comet Liquor and Deli 的失败店面，并准备好在他根据 Sid 的谈话开始他的业务时停留一段时间。

He paces behind the register, lecturing, ringing up a turkey on rye.

他在收银台后面踱步，一边讲课，一边用黑麦叫醒一只火鸡。

He says, remember the guys who leased the storefront back in 1995 and opened a Boston Market franchise?

他说，还记得 1995 年租用店面并开设波士顿市场特许经营店的那些人吗？

They were sure roasted chicken would draw a crowd.

他们确信烤鸡会吸引一大群人。

They sat in my place six months before they did it and asked me my opinion.

他们在这样做之前六个月坐在我的位置上，询问我的意见。

I told him they were crazy if they opened it up.

我告诉他，如果他们打开它，他们就疯了。

And they continued to tell me there's 15,000 cars go by there every day.

他们继续告诉我每天有 15,000 辆汽车经过那里。

There's close to 4,000 or 5,000 people walking around in the neighborhood.

附近有近 4,000 或 5,000 人在走动。

They'd have to get 5%, maybe 1%, but they'd do enough.

他们必须得到 5%，也许 1%，但他们已经做得足够了。

And I looked at them, and I said, have you ever been in business, gentlemen?

我看着他们，我说，先生们，你们做过生意吗？

And they said, no, we're MBA's.

他们说，不，我们是 MBA。

And when we have that much traffic going by and so forth, we have to calculate that's enough to make our payroll and everything else.

当我们有这么多的流量等等时，我们必须计算这是否足以支付我们的工资和其他一切。

I said, OK, you want to throw your money away, be my guest.

我说，好吧，你想把钱扔掉，做我的客人吧。

The Boston Market guys didn't listen to him.

波士顿市场的人没有听他的。

Sid's been four doors down from the corner for 22 years, and they didn't listen.

Sid 22年来一直在距离街角四扇门的地方，但他们不听。

They opened and folded after two years and two months.

两年零两个月后，它们打开又折叠。

As we talk about this, Sid sighs, over and over.

当我们谈论这个时，希德一遍又一遍地叹息。

Look, he says, the only way you'll draw people to that store is if you make it a designated corner.

他说，你看，吸引人们到那家商店的唯一方法就是把它变成一个指定的角落。

Designated means that it's a item that people need and will go to regardless of where it's at.

指定意味着它是人们需要的物品，并且无论它在哪里都会去。

If it's a good cleaner, I don't care where it is.

如果它是一个好的清洁工，我不在乎它在哪里。

They'll stop go in and get out.

他们会停止进去并出去。

If it's a drug store, has good prices, service, and what they need, they'll go to it.

如果这是一家药店，价格好、服务好、有他们需要的东西，他们就会去那里。

If it's a shoe store, a shoe repair, which is none in the area, everybody needs it.

如果是鞋店、修鞋店（该地区没有），那么每个人都需要它。

Let me take one of those.

让我拿其中之一。

Here's the problem with shoe repair.

这是修鞋的问题。

The rent at 1801 is about $10,000 a month.

1801的租金约为每月10,000美元。

High for the neighborhood, but not unheard of.

在附近地区来说很高，但并非闻所未闻。

Shoe makers charge $25 for a new leather sole.

制鞋商为新的皮革鞋底收取 25 美元的费用。

You'd have to have 400 come in every month with an old shoe just to make the rent, not to mention taxes, insurance, and a couple of employees.

每个月你得有 400 人带着一双旧鞋来支付租金，更不用说税、保险和几个员工了。

Or you'd have to do what Sid does at Comet Liquor and Deli.

或者你必须像 Sid 在 Comet Liquor and Deli 所做的那样。

There's nothing in the store you can't get at other places in the neighborhood.

店里没有你在附近其他地方买不到的东西。

He sells bagels to the yuppies, truffles to old ladies, and pint-sized bottles of vodka to the guys who drink on the corner.

他向雅皮士卖百吉饼，向老太太卖松露，向街角喝酒的家伙卖小瓶伏特加。

And there's a copy machine that's broken most of the time.

还有一台复印机大部分时间都坏了。

It's a store held together by sheer force of personality.

这是一家完全靠个性力量凝聚在一起的商店。

People come for Sid.

人们来找席德。

The thing of it is, it is a designated spot in the community.

问题是，它是社区中的指定地点。

I made it such.

我把它弄成这样了。

In other words, if you're there as a person, and you take the community into your bosom or so-called hands, or you are willing to join the community and be part of it?

换句话说，如果你作为一个人在那里，你把这个社区揽入你的怀抱或所谓的手中，或者你愿意加入这个社区并成为它的一部分？

Then it becomes a designated thing.

然后它就变成了指定的东西。

The bosom theory makes sense to Mary Godwin, although she differs on what it takes to hold the community close.

玛丽·戈德温（Mary Godwin）认为，胸部理论是有道理的，尽管她对于如何保持社区的紧密性存在不同意见。

She says, she used to march into 1801 Columbia Road and tell the owner.

她说，她曾经大步走进哥伦比亚路1801号并告诉店主。

Get a bar in here.

在这里开一家酒吧。

You don't remember.

你不记得了。

He didn't even have a bar in there.

他那里连酒吧都没有。

You can't make it around here without a bar.

如果没有酒吧，你就无法在这附近度过。

I really think so.

我真的这么认为。

I say, yeah, you got to have a bar around this neighborhood.

我说，是的，这附近一定要有一家酒吧。

Mary was a neighborhood star back in the 1950's when she was a champion roller skater, and then tended bar down at Millie & Al's.

早在 20 世纪 50 年代，玛丽就已是邻里明星，当时她是轮滑冠军，后来在 Millie & Al's 打理吧台。

Mary always wanted to own a pub with regulars.

玛丽一直想拥有一家常客的酒吧。

She always wanted to put it at 1801, but whenever it came up for lease, she never had the cash.

她一直想把它放在1801，但每次出租时，她都没有现金。

If only though, if only Mary had gotten that lease, her husband Tony would have worked the door.

如果玛丽得到了这份租约，她的丈夫托尼就会开门了。

They would have called it Bailey's.

他们会把它称为贝利的。

I told Tony, I guarantee you, if you and I had go that place some time ago, it would've been the neighborhood bar.

我告诉托尼，我向你保证，如果你和我之前去那个地方，那一定是附近的酒吧。

At that time, the people we knew, and the people that would follow Mary and come and listen to me with my stories, we would have been successful.

那时，我们认识的人，以及那些跟随玛丽来听我讲故事的人，我们就会成功。

But them people are dead or have moved on.

但这些人要么已经死了，要么已经继续前进。

It's a different generation.

这是不同的一代。

I'm not into the college set.

我不适合大学。

I'm from the coal mines, and Mary's a skater and a waitress.

我来自煤矿，玛丽是一名滑冰运动员和一名女服务员。

There was a time that storefront flourished.

曾经有一段时间，店面很繁荣。

It was in the early 1970's when it was Eddie Leonard's, a sandwich shop owned by an ex-boxer.

那是 20 世纪 70 年代初，当时它是埃迪·伦纳德 (Eddie Leonard) 的一家三明治店，老板是一位前拳击手。

Guys, you had lines out the door, sometimes, at 3:00 in the morning.

伙计们，有时候凌晨 3:00 门口就排起了长队。

I never saw lines out the door, but I was at home being 12.

我从来没有看到门外排长队，但当时我12岁就在家。

I know my mom went there after bar-hopping.

我知道我妈妈逛完酒吧后去了那里。

My friend, Reggie, had a few years on me, and he made 1801 Columbia Road home base, ordering a $0.10 Coke and hanging out for hours on the orange plastic chairs.

我的朋友雷吉（Reggie）比我好几年，他以哥伦比亚路 1801 号为大本营，点了一瓶 0.10 美元的可乐，在橙色塑料椅子上闲逛了几个小时。

He says, by 3:00 in the morning, everyone in the place was drunk, high, or trying to get high.

他说，到凌晨 3:00，现场的每个人都喝醉了，喝醉了，或者试图喝醉。

Because on 18th Street, you had the Showboat Lounge, and you had Manuel's nightclub.

因为在 18 街上，有 Showboat Lounge，还有 Manuel's 夜总会。

You're always going to get a good show around closing time, because whenever the bars close, people get hungry.

在关门时间你总是能看到一场精彩的表演，因为每当酒吧关门时，人们就会感到饥饿。

Back then 1801 was a destination, an open house for the neighborhood.

那时，1801 是一个目的地，是一个面向社区的开放日。

Women clicked through the door in their heels, Afros and beehives jutting up.

女人们穿着高跟鞋“咔哒”地开门，爆炸头和蜂箱都凸出来了。

Men in popcorn shirts and platform shoes, gamblers, bouncers, dancers, they all came in.

穿着爆米花衬衫和厚底鞋的男人、赌徒、保镖、舞者，他们都进来了。

Reggie says that the night pizza-man at 1801 was a 17 year old everyone called by his childhood nickname, Stinky.

雷吉说，1801 的夜间披萨店是一位 17 岁的男孩，大家都叫他童年的绰号“臭”。

Stinky was weird.

臭臭很奇怪。

Stinky was, I guess, what you would call a nerd now-a-days, when we were kids.

我想，当我们还是孩子的时候，臭臭就是现在人们所说的书呆子。

He was one of those people who wanted to be a gangster but always got caught.

他是那些想成为黑帮但总是被抓住的人之一。

No one said this to Stinky's face though.

但没有人当着臭臭的面说这句话。

He was six foot five, 230 pounds and already hard from 22 juvenile arrests and reform school.

他身高 6 英尺 5 英寸，体重 230 磅，因 22 名青少年被捕和感化学校而变得坚硬。

People steered clear of Stinky.

人们避开臭臭。

He carried a gun, and he robbed people, sometimes a half block from that corner where he worked.

他拿着枪，抢劫别人，有时距离他工作的角落只有半个街区。

When they finally caught him, they charged him with 69 crimes.

当他们最终抓住他时，他们指控他犯有 69 项罪行。

So he was busy in this neighborhood, in this neighborhood alone.

所以他就在这附近忙碌着，独自在这附近忙碌着。

And what happened was, apparently he robbed this woman in the Mews, Kalorama Mews, those townhomes.

所发生的事情显然是他在卡洛拉马马厩的联排别墅里抢劫了这个女人。

And she wasn't that old, and she knew karate, and she tried to use it on him.

而且她年纪也不大，而且会空手道，而且她试图对他使用它。

And he shot her a couple times in the face, and, I believe, he stabbed her, but she didn't die.

他朝她脸上开了几枪，我相信，他刺伤了她，但她没有死。

Matter of fact, she drew-- she must have been an artist-- she drew the wanted poster.

事实上，她画了——她一定是个艺术家——她画了通缉海报。

And they posted them all around the neighborhood.

他们把它们张贴在附近。

And he wasn't the brightest guy in the world.

而且他并不是世界上最聪明的人。

He had this one particular outfit, a green leather jacket, I think, a brown leather baseball cap that he would wear whenever he'd commit crimes.

他有一套特别的衣服，我想是一件绿色皮夹克，一顶棕色皮棒球帽，每当他犯罪时他都会戴上。

And everybody in the neighborhood knew it, because they posted what he'd had on.

附近的每个人都知道这一点，因为他们张贴了他所穿的衣服。

And everybody knew it was him.

每个人都知道是他。

In the end, the building gave Stinky up.

最终，大楼放弃了臭臭。

He stood right in the windows of 1801 twirling pizzas wearing that baseball cap.

他戴着棒球帽，站在 1801 旋转披萨店的橱窗前。

Police made the connection, and stinky got 37 years to life.

警方查明了这一点，臭臭被判了 37 年徒刑。

Just a couple years later when the sandwich shop closed, the string of failures started.

几年后，三明治店关门了，一连串的失败开始了。

Even people who don't know the real story will tell you, a murderer worked there, and that's what went wrong.

即使不了解真实情况的人也会告诉你，一名凶手在那里工作，这就是问题所在。

The local weekly once wrote a story about the corner and headlined it, "The Curse of Stinky." Nearly everyone I spoke with eventually got around to the idea of a curse.

当地的周刊曾经写过一篇关于这个角落的故事，并以标题“臭的诅咒”为标题。几乎所有与我交谈过的人最终都想到了诅咒的想法。

Here's Mr. Dravillas when he was trying to explain the problem with the door at 1801 Columbia Road.

这是德拉维拉斯先生试图解释哥伦比亚路 1801 号门的问题时的照片。

Explain to me, what's the problem with the corner?

给我解释一下，这个角有什么问题吗？

Curse-- the door.

诅咒——门。

Katie Davis Or here's Mark Winstead checking a rim up the block at City Bikes.

凯蒂·戴维斯 (Katie Davis) 或者这是马克·温斯特德 (Mark Winstead) 在城市自行车 (City Bikes) 的街区检查轮圈。

There's some voodoo going on.

有一些巫术正在发生。

It's like the Bermuda Triangle of small business.

这就像小企业的百慕大三角。

And this is Pat Patrick, another big real estate broker.

这是帕特·帕特里克，另一位大型房地产经纪人。

That is just a damning site.

那只是一个该死的网站。

It's all there is to it.

这就是全部了。

A damning site?

一个该死的网站？

Pat Patrick Well, yeah, it's jinxed.

帕特·帕特里克嗯，是的，这很糟糕。

On the other hand, maybe for a neighborhood to be in balance there has to be an accursed storefront, the one corner that everyone rolls their eyes at, the problem child.

另一方面，也许一个社区要保持平衡，就必须有一个该死的店面，一个每个人都翻白眼的角落，一个问题儿童。

It brings people together, and it gives us something we can all agree on.

它将人们聚集在一起，并为我们提供了一些我们都同意的东西。

So Starbucks, that's the latest.

星巴克，这是最新的。

Starbucks signed a lease at 1801.

星巴克于1801年签订租约。

They're going to load in a bunch of Sumatra beans and Kenyan blend, put cushy chairs in the windows and offer wireless access.

他们将装载一堆苏门答腊豆和肯尼亚混合豆，在窗户上放上舒适的椅子并提供无线接入。

How, you might wonder, how can 1801 Columbia Road trip up Starbucks?

您可能想知道，哥伦比亚路 1801 号怎么会绊倒星巴克呢？

They've got 4,000 stores.

他们有 4,000 家商店。

They've got to have the formula down pat, know exactly what makes people walk in and order a Frappuccino.

他们必须牢牢掌握配方，确切地知道是什么让人们走进去点一杯星冰乐。

All you can have to do is stand here and know.

你所要做的就是站在这里并知道。

It's 11:30 and it's packed.

现在是11点30分，店里已经挤满了人。

Starbucks regional marketing director, Shannon Jones, stands in the doorway of 1801.

星巴克区域营销总监香农·琼斯 (Shannon Jones) 站在 1801 的门口。

She offers the track record.

她提供了往绩记录。

Starbucks has 35 stores in Washington DC and has never closed one.

星巴克在华盛顿特区拥有 35 家门店，从未关闭过一家。

We've been looking at Adams Morgan for two and a half plus years, trying to get the right space here for the neighborhood.

两年半以来，我们一直在关注 Adams Morgan，试图为附近的社区找到合适的空间。

And finally, the stars aligned, and we were able to get the this great space on the corner.

最后，星星齐齐，我们能够在拐角处获得这个巨大的空间。

She says this, and I want to say, which stars are you talking about?

她这么一说，我想说，你说的是哪些明星呢？

Think about it though.

不过想想吧。

Starbucks has a product that's physically addictive, and enough money to wait forever for the store to turn a profit.

星巴克有一种让人上瘾的产品，并且有足够的钱永远等待商店扭亏为盈。

The neighborhood's full of office workers, freelancers, dot-commers, and consultants.

该社区充满了办公室职员、自由职业者、网络商人和顾问。

Shannon Jones says, what ruins other businesses is often what works for Starbucks.

香农·琼斯说，毁掉其他企业的往往是对星巴克有利的。

Take the lack of parking, not a problem.

就拿缺乏停车位来说，这不是问题。

It's amazing, the way that people, even when they're in their car, will find a way to get in to Starbucks and get their drinks.

令人惊奇的是，人们即使在车里，也会找到进入星巴克喝饮料的方式。

So what we really look for is also a great storefront.

所以我们真正寻找的也是一个很棒的店面。

I want to run a couple of theories by you for why previous tenants haven't worked.

我想用你的一些理论来解释为什么以前的租户没有工作。

And one is, we're standing right under it.

一是，我们就站在它的下面。

There is one realtor in the neighborhood who thinks that the door should be moved.

附近的一位房地产经纪人认为应该把门移开。

Absolutely not.

绝对不是。

One of our busiest stores in Washington is Liberty Place, and it has, literally, the same kind of entrance.

自由广场 (Liberty Place) 是我们在华盛顿最繁忙的商店之一，从字面上看，它也有同样的入口。

It's kind of on a corner, kind of tucked in, and, literally, that store is probably no more than a 1,000 square feet, and the volume that it does.

它位于一个角落，有点隐蔽，从字面上看，这家商店的面积和体积可能不超过 1,000 平方英尺。

In terms of the entrance, definitely, we're excited about where this entrance is, and where it sits, because, I mean, it looks out on the entire neighborhood.

就入口而言，当然，我们对这个入口的位置以及它所在的位置感到兴奋，因为，我的意思是，它可以俯瞰整个社区。

So this was one thing we knew we didn't want to change.

所以这是我们知道我们不想改变的一件事。

Another theory is that this is sort of an island, and you can't get people to cross over for some reason.

另一种理论是，这是一座岛屿，出于某种原因你无法让人们穿越。

No one can really explain why it's an island, but I wonder what you think about that?

没有人能真正解释为什么它是一座岛屿，但我想知道你对此有何看法？

I think again that people want to come into Starbucks, which is great.

我再次认为人们想进入星巴克，这很棒。

People need their coffee, and they'll cross streets for it.

人们需要咖啡，他们会穿过街道去买咖啡。

And then the last one is this.

然后最后一个就是这个。

When some people have tried to explain to me why other people haven't made it, they just flat out say, well, I think the place is jinxed.

当有些人试图向我解释为什么其他人没有成功时，他们只是直截了当地说，好吧，我认为这个地方被诅咒了。

I think there's a curse.

我认为有一个诅咒。

So what do you say to them?

那么你对他们说什么？

I actually say-- and it's funny, because we've heard all of these things too-- and we're here to stay.

我实际上是说——这很有趣，因为我们也听过所有这些事情——而且我们会留下来。

And I think everybody will be happy to see us here when we're celebrating our 20th anniversary in Washington.

我想当我们在华盛顿庆祝成立 20 周年时，每个人都会很高兴在这里见到我们。

At the end of the interview, I have to say I'm sold.

采访结束时，我不得不说我被卖了。

Starbucks will be the one that makes it.

星巴克将是制造它的那家。

When I float this, Pat the realtor predicts Starbucks will last 13 months, no longer.

当我提出这个问题时，房地产经纪人帕特预测星巴克将持续 13 个月，而不是更长。

And Sid, well, Sid can't help himself.

席德，好吧，席德无法控制自己。

He just double, double dares them to try.

他只是加倍、加倍地鼓励他们去尝试。

Nobody's been in there for a long period of time.

已经很长一段时间没有人进来了。

Boston Market went running real quick.

波士顿市场运行得非常快。

Long John Silver's disappeared.

长约翰·西尔弗失踪了。

What do you think, those people don't know what business is, that Starbucks knows everything?

你觉得怎么样，那些人不知道什么是生意，而星巴克却什么都知道？

OK, we'll find out.

好的，我们会知道的。

Let them have it, and we'll watch them go into the ground.

让他们拥有它，我们会看着他们进入地下。

The truth is though, many people will cross their fingers for the new Starbucks.

但事实是，很多人都会对新开的星巴克抱有希望。

They've been waiting for someone to light up those windows.

他们一直在等待有人点亮那些窗户。

Because as entertaining as it is to project all this drama onto that corner, it would be a relief to see someone figure out what works there.

因为尽管将所有这些戏剧性的事情投射到那个角落是很有趣的，但看到有人弄清楚那里有什么作用将会让人松一口气。

Every time it goes dark, you get this feeling that the dead space is gaining power.

每当天黑时，你都会感觉到死亡空间正在获得力量。

That it's swallowing up projects, life savings, and dreams.

它正在吞噬项目、毕生积蓄和梦想。

You start to use the other side of the street.

您开始使用街道的另一边。

Katie Davis in Washington DC.

凯蒂·戴维斯在华盛顿特区。

Coming up, casing the state of Vermont before you try to take it all.

接下来，在你尝试占领这一切之前先先了解一下佛蒙特州。

That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.

稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。

It's This American Life .

这就是美国生活。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Each week on our program, of course, we choose some theme, bring you a variety of different kinds of stories on that theme.

当然，每周我们的节目都会选择一些主题，为您带来关于该主题的各种不同类型的故事。

Today's show, regime change in everyday life.

今天的节目，日常生活中的政权更迭。

Stories of the new people coming in, taking over, full of hubris.

新人加入、接管的故事充满了傲慢。

And how hard it is to win over the locals even in the most mundane of settings.

即使在最平凡的环境中，赢得当地人的支持也是多么困难。

We've arrived at act two of our program, act two, or give me death.

我们的计划已经到了第二幕，第二幕，或者给我死。

Libertarians, you've probably heard of them, right?

自由主义者，你可能听说过他们，对吗？

Maybe you aren't exactly sure what they stand for.

也许您不太确定它们代表什么。

All right, here is a short list: no gun laws, no restrictions on drug use, no income tax.

好吧，这是一个简短的清单：没有枪支法，没有吸毒限制，没有所得税。

And I'll say that one again, no taxes.

我再说一遍，没有税。

They'd like to make government as small as humanly possible.

他们希望政府尽可能小。

Maybe you also know, they almost never get elected to office, any office.

也许你也知道，他们几乎从来没有当选过任何职位。

Last year a guy named Jason Sorens came up with a plan to remedy that.

去年，一个名叫杰森·索伦斯的人想出了一个解决这个问题的计划。

His plan, gather up some 20,000 libertarians, move to a state, a small state, vote the friends into office, and then slowly take over.

他的计划是，聚集大约20,000名自由主义者，搬到一个州，一个小州，投票让朋友们上台，然后慢慢接管。

Sarah Koenig got herself invited to a recruiting meeting of The Free State Project.

莎拉·科尼格 (Sarah Koenig) 受邀参加自由州项目的招募会议。

The meeting was in College Park, Maryland at a restaurant designed to look like a French farmhouse.

会议在马里兰州大学公园市一家设计得像法国农舍的餐厅举行。

About 35 people were waiting for Jason to arrive.

大约有 35 个人在等待杰森的到来。

I thought they were going to be sort of like republicans, only more so but that wasn't quite it.

我以为他们会有点像共和党人，甚至更多，但事实并非如此。

There was something at once bookish and eager about them, like people in love with an idea and happy to chat about it if you show the least amount of interest.

他们身上既有书生气又充满渴望，就像人们热爱一个想法，只要你表现出一点点兴趣，他们就会很乐意谈论它。

This is Nixie Chesnovitch.

这是尼克西·切斯诺维奇。

She looks nothing like my libertarian stereotype.

她看起来一点也不像我对自由主义的刻板印象。

She's young and hip and has cropped purple hair.

她年轻、时尚，留着紫色的短发。

I often think about what it must have been like for the founders of this nation.

我经常思考这个国家的缔造者们的感受。

They were trying a very radical sort of idea.

他们正在尝试一种非常激进的想法。

When they signed the Declaration of Independence they thought they were signing away their lives, and yet they did it.

当他们签署《独立宣言》时，他们以为自己是在放弃自己的生命，但他们还是这么做了。

You got tears in your eyes when you were talking about the founding fathers.

当你谈论开国元勋时，你会热泪盈眶。

I guess-- I think it's kind of egotistical to say that I think about The Free State Project that way, that I am founding a whole new nation.

我想——我认为说我以这种方式思考自由州计划，我正在建立一个全新的国家，有点自负。

But I do think that we are carrying on the founder's dreams.

但我确实认为我们正在继承创始人的梦想。

They said that if you see tyranny, you have to do something about that.

他们说，如果你看到暴政，你就必须采取行动。

Here's a Republic if you can keep it.

如果你能保留的话，这就是一个共和国。

Tyranny might sound a bit extreme coming from these people; they hardly seem oppressed.

对于这些人来说，暴政听起来可能有点极端。他们看起来几乎没有受到压迫。

They have multiple degrees, good jobs, some with the government, families, and they like where they live.

他们拥有多个学位、良好的工作，其中一些在政府、家庭工作，而且他们喜欢自己居住的地方。

So what's their big complaint?

那么他们最大的抱怨是什么？

It's not only that there are too many tax laws and too many gun laws.

不仅仅是有太多的税法和太多的枪支法。

There are too many laws period.

法律时期太多了。

They all have this injured feeling that it wasn't supposed to be this way.

他们都有一种受伤的感觉，觉得事情不应该是这样的。

As if the promise of American freedom born in 1776 was made to them personally, and 227 years later everyone but them has forgotten.

仿佛 1776 年诞生的美国自由的承诺是对他们个人做出的，而 227 年后，除了他们之外，每个人都忘记了。

I can't tell if I'm breaking a law.

我无法判断我是否触犯了法律。

It has gotten to the point where there's so many laws on the books that by carrying a simple lock-blade knife in some states, which is a common accouterment where I'm from, it's something you just have.

现在已经到了书本上有如此多法律的地步，在某些州携带一把简单的锁刃刀（这是我来自的地方的常见装备）就成了你所拥有的东西。

She's from rural Tennessee.

她来自田纳西州农村。

Nixie Chesnovitch That is illegal in some states.

Nixie Chesnovitch 这在某些州是非法的。

I mean, it's illegal to carry pliers in your pocket in Texas, I learned last night.

我的意思是，我昨晚了解到，在德克萨斯州，口袋里装钳子是违法的。

It's just ridiculous.

这太荒谬了。

Jason Sorens arrives.

杰森·索伦斯到来。

It turns out the leader of this revolution is 26 years old and looks about 19.

原来这场革命的领导者今年26岁，看上去大约19岁。

He's wearing a white turtleneck, pale-blue jeans, and resembles a dark-haired Macaulay Culkin.

他穿着白色高领毛衣和淡蓝色牛仔裤，看起来很像黑发的麦考利·卡尔金。

I wonder if maybe this is all part of some experiment for his doctorate, which he is getting in political science at Yale.

我想知道这是否是他在耶鲁大学政治学博士学位实验的一部分。

It isn't.

事实并非如此。

He stands in front of the gathering while they order food-- mostly burgers and curly fries-- and lays out the plan.

当他们点食物（主要是汉堡和炸薯条）时，他站在聚会前面并制定计划。

Thanks Steve, and it's good to see you all here.

谢谢史蒂夫，很高兴在这里见到你们。

For those of you not completely familiar with the Free State Project, we're circulating a statement of intent, basically saying that you agree to move to a single state of the US.

对于那些不完全熟悉自由州项目的人，我们正在分发一份意向声明，基本上是说您同意搬到美国的一个州。

Once 20,000 people sign up, the move begins.

一旦有 20,000 人注册，行动就开始了。

And there is a five year period in which to move.

并且有五年的搬迁期限。

Hearing him talk, you feel not so much as if you're in the presence of a political rabble browser, but a supremely intelligent and gentle rabbit.

听他说话，你感觉自己不像是一个政治乌合之众，而是一只极其聪明、温柔的兔子。

The initial goals of the Free State Project, he tells them, would be to get rid of taxes, privatize all public schools, and abolish eminent domain and zoning laws.

他告诉他们，自由州项目的最初目标是取消税收，将所有公立学校私有化，并废除征用权和分区法。

He thinks the 20,000 and their allies could start to win local elections by the year 2010.

他认为 20,000 人及其盟友可能会在 2010 年开始赢得地方选举。

By 2020 they'd have state offices.

到 2020 年，他们将拥有州办公室。

A governor and a sympathetic state supreme court by about 2025.

到 2025 年左右，将出现一名州长和一个富有同情心的州最高法院。

The project is about freedom, so bigots and homophobes need not sign up.

该项目是关于自由的，因此偏执者和恐同者不需要注册。

And yes, they have a mascot.

是的，他们有一个吉祥物。

A cartoon porcupine because Jason says, it's cute and not aggressive, but you wouldn't want to mess with it.

卡通豪猪，因为杰森说，它很可爱而且没有攻击性，但你不想惹它。

Later Jason tells me how it all started.

后来杰森告诉我这一切是如何开始的。

Libertarians have been derisively called the party of 2%, because there's so few of them.

自由主义者被嘲笑为2%的政党，因为这样的人太少了。

Jason thought, well there are fifty states, each is 2% of the Union, why not all move to one?

杰森想，有五十个州，每个州占联邦的 2%，为什么不全部搬到一个呢？

Well, I wrote this essay for The Libertarian Enterprise , which is an online journal, and I submitted it to the editor, and he was really excited about it and thought it was really good.

嗯，我为《自由主义企业》（The Libertarian Enterprise）写了这篇文章，这是一份在线期刊，我把它提交给了编辑，他对此感到非常兴奋，认为它真的很好。

I said, oh, maybe this idea isn't so bad after all her.

我说，哦，也许这个主意还不算太糟糕。

And he decided to publish it.

他决定出版它。

The next day I had gotten probably 60 or 70 email messages.

第二天我大概收到了 60 或 70 封电子邮件。

And they kept coming in the days after that.

在那之后的几天里，他们不断地来。

About 200 total saying, let's do this.

大约有 200 人说，让我们这样做吧。

Let's do this project.

我们来做这个项目吧。

Libertarians have tried other projects, some have sounded like sci-fi: a long term rental of a valley in Somalia, or building a city on pylons somewhere off the coast of Honduras.

自由主义者尝试过其他项目，其中一些听起来像科幻小说：长期租赁索马里的一个山谷，或者在洪都拉斯海岸附近的某个塔楼上建造一座城市。

By comparison Jason's plan seems eminently sensible.

相比之下，杰森的计划似乎非常明智。

Before he knew it , he was in charge of a somewhat ragtag internet movement, one he now works on practically full-time.

在他意识到这一点之前，他负责了一场有点混乱的互联网运动，现在他几乎全职从事这项运动。

The website, which Jason created, includes statistical analyses of each state under consideration.

贾森创建的该网站包括所考虑的每个州的统计分析。

Prospective members learn encouraging facts like that the cheapest place to mount a political campaign is North Dakota, and that Alaska has the lowest state and local taxes.

准会员了解到一些令人鼓舞的事实，例如北达科他州是开展政治竞选活动最便宜的地方，而阿拉斯加的州税和地方税最低。

The government has treated the Constitution like a dirty rag, basically.

基本上，政府把宪法当作一块脏抹布。

There was a time when it was clear that the government didn't have any role in education, social security, or crime control.

曾经有一段时间，政府显然在教育、社会保障或犯罪控制方面没有发挥任何作用。

That's a state matter, not for the federal government.

这是州政府的事，与联邦政府无关。

And now the federal government does all those things.

现在联邦政府做了所有这些事情。

I've never had anyone adequately explain to me why we needed an amendment for alcohol prohibition, yet drug prohibition requires no such amendment.

从来没有人向我充分解释过为什么我们需要对禁酒令进行修正案，但禁毒令不需要这样的修正案。

The government simply does it, and there is no constitutional grounds for opposing it, apparently.

政府只是这样做，显然没有宪法依据来反对它。

Jason's not like anybody I've ever met.

杰森和我见过的任何人都不一样。

He's so steeped in theory that even when the tape recorder isn't rolling it's hard to get him to talk like an ordinary person, like someone who isn't say, actually participating in the Constitutional Convention.

他如此沉迷于理论，以至于即使录音机没有转动，也很难让他像一个普通人一样说话，就像一个不说话的人，实际上参加了制宪会议。

But no one at the meeting seems fazed by this.

但会议上似乎没有人对此感到不安。

Maybe it's just his elegant posture and impossibly clear skin, but Jason has this quiet charisma.

也许只是他优雅的姿势和白皙得令人难以置信的皮肤，杰森就有了这种安静的魅力。

He seems selfless, and so completely motivated by his idea that when you're around him, you wonder if this is someone you'll talk about some day and say, I met him when he was 26, before anyone had heard of him.

他看起来很无私，并且完全被自己的想法所激励，以至于当你在他身边时，你会想，有一天你会不会谈论到这个人，并说，我在他 26 岁时认识了他，那时还没有人听说过他。

People ask him questions about his favorite state on the list, but as the leader, he demurs.

人们问他关于名单上他最喜欢的州的问题，但作为领导人，他表示反对。

One guy asks about states with long coastlines and the s-word.

一个人问起那些拥有漫长海岸线和“s”一词的州。

And for a minute I have no idea what he's talking about.

一时间我不知道他在说什么。

Wouldn't it be kind of easier to do the s-word with a state like Delaware or somebody like that or even Alaska, rather than something like Wyoming, because it's kind of hardest if they decided to close airspace.

与像特拉华州或类似的州甚至阿拉斯加这样的州而不是怀俄明州这样的州相比，不是更容易吗？因为如果他们决定关闭领空，这是最困难的。

You're not going to get anybody in or out, that kind of thing.

你不会让任何人进出，诸如此类的事情。

Then I realize he's talking about secession.

然后我意识到他在谈论分裂国家。

Consider this, more than 3,000 people have already pledged to move.

想想看，已有 3000 多人承诺搬迁。

When the list reaches 5,000, they'll choose a destination from the 10 states.

当列表达到 5,000 时，他们将从 10 个州中选择一个目的地。

Jason expects that to happen this year.

杰森预计这会在今年发生。

One of the candidate states is Vermont.

候选州之一是佛蒙特州。

Yes, Vermont, the only state that elected a socialist to Congress.

是的，佛蒙特州是唯一选举社会主义者进入国会的州。

Jason gets invited to Vermont to talk to a property-rights group about his project, and I go along.

杰森受邀前往佛蒙特州与一个产权组织讨论他的项目，我也同意了。

We pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America--

我们宣誓效忠美利坚合众国的国旗——

It's in a Best Western conference room in the town of Waterbury.

这是在沃特伯里镇的 Best Western 会议室。

About 40 people show up, mostly conservative Republicans wearing sensible winter boots and carrying mugs of coffee from home.

大约有 40 人出席，其中大多数是保守派共和党人，他们穿着合适的冬靴，手里拿着从家里带来的咖啡杯。

This is a good crowd for him.

这对他来说是一个很好的人群。

What he calls, liberty friendly.

他所说的，自由友好。

We learned that adding 20,000 people to the state could actually swing some local races.

我们了解到，在该州增加 20,000 名人口实际上可能会影响一些当地的竞选。

The only libertarian in the state legislature just lost reelection by 127 votes.

州立法机构中唯一的自由主义者刚刚以 127 票之差落败连任。

David McCullough is an eighth generation Vermonter, and a former state rep.

大卫·麦卡洛 (David McCullough) 是佛蒙特州第八代传人，也是前州众议员。

Vermont is still small.

佛蒙特州仍然很小。

600,000 people and like 220,000 don't vote.

600,000 人和大约 220,000 人不投票。

And when they don't vote, they're yours baby in politics.

当他们不投票时，他们就是你的政治宝贝。

People are sheep, that's my opinion.

人都是羊，这是我的观点。

They're interested in the football game.

他们对足球比赛很感兴趣。

In Rome, they had the gladiators.

在罗马，他们有角斗士。

It's the same, exact thing.

这是同样的、完全相同的事情。

You talk, I don't do politics, I just do football.

你说吧，我不搞政治，我只搞足球。

I don't do politics, I just do snow-machining.

我不搞政治，我只搞造雪。

I don't do politics, I'm just into arm-wrestling or whatever.

我不参与政治，我只是喜欢扳手腕什么的。

We took a quick poll of the room.

我们对房间进行了快速调查。

About five people said they'd be interested in signing up for the project.

大约有五个人表示他们有兴趣签署该项目。

One of them is Bill Sayre, a lobbyist for the forestry industry and a dead ringer for Ted Koppel.

其中之一是比尔·塞尔 (Bill Sayre)，他是林业行业的游说者，与特德·科佩尔 (Ted Koppel) 十分相似。

He tells Jason how encouraging it is to see someone so young with such promising new ideas about liberty.

他告诉杰森，看到这么年轻的人对自由有如此有前途的新想法是多么令人鼓舞。

And then he signs the pledge.

然后他签署了保证书。

So I'd be happy to, and I will do so right now.

所以我很乐意这样做，而且我现在就会这样做。

What does the statement say?

声明说了什么？

Bill Sayre It says, I hereby state my solemn intent to move to a state in the United States designated by a vote of the Free State Project.

Bill Sayre 上面说，我在此郑重声明搬到美国自由州项目投票指定的一个州。

It could happen, people at the meeting tell us.

与会者告诉我们，这种情况有可能发生。

It happened before.

以前也发生过这样的事。

And then they talk about the so-called liberal takeover of Vermont.

然后他们谈论所谓的自由派接管佛蒙特州。

Back in the '70s, the demographics of the state began changing.

早在 70 年代，该州的人口结构就开始发生变化。

Outsiders were moving in, a mixture of city-people, and hippies, and back-to-the-land types.

外地人不断涌入，其中有城里人、嬉皮士，也有返乡者。

And they were liberals.

他们是自由主义者。

They elected other liberals to office, and left-leaning state policy followed.

他们选举了其他自由派人士上台，并制定了左倾的国家政策。

Vermont is now the only state to legalize civil unions of gays and lesbians for instance.

例如，佛蒙特州是目前唯一一个将男女同性恋民事结合合法化的州。

And the explanation that made the most sense to a lot of people was that there had been a conspiracy.

对很多人来说最合理的解释是，这是一个阴谋。

Almost everyone we talked to brings it up.

几乎所有与我们交谈过的人都提到过这个问题。

They mentioned, darkly, an article in Playboy magazine that supposedly incited the movement.

他们阴暗地提到了《花花公子》杂志上的一篇文章，据称该文章煽动了这场运动。

The article exists, April 1972.

该文章存在于 1972 年 4 月。

A writer named Richard Pollak found two students at Yale, Jason's school, who proposed moving all the like-minded anti-war liberals to one state, basically Jason's plan plus hippies.

一位名叫理查德·波拉克的作家在杰森的学校耶鲁大学找到了两名学生，他们提议将所有志同道合的反战自由主义者转移到一个州，基本上是杰森的计划加上嬉皮士。

None of our interviewees had actually ever met anyone who'd crossed state lines because of Playboy magazine.

我们的受访者中没有一个人真正遇到过因为《花花公子》杂志而跨越州界的人。

Still if liberals could take over Vermont, why not libertarians?

不过，如果自由主义者可以接管佛蒙特州，为什么自由意志主义者不能呢？

The next morning we drive to Burlington to have breakfast with the mayor, Peter Clavelle, a Democrat.

第二天早上，我们开车前往伯灵顿，与民主党市长彼得·克拉维尔 (Peter Clavelle) 共进早餐。

I notice, a little warily, that the mayor has actually prepared for this meeting by reading the Free State Project website.

我有点警惕地注意到，市长实际上是通过阅读自由州项目网站来准备这次会议的。

He's printed out a copy of Jason's essay called "Vermont Report" and highlighted various phrases like hippie-takeover.

他打印了杰森的文章《佛蒙特州报告》的副本，并强调了嬉皮接管等各种短语。

The mayor orders an omelet, and we ask him to draw a map of Vermont showing where Jason might get support for the project.

市长点了一份煎蛋卷，我们请他画一张佛蒙特州地图，标明杰森可能在哪里获得该项目的支持。

[INAUDIBLE] Vermont that's a little bit like this.

[听不清] 佛蒙特州有点像这样。

And then fitting nicely into Vermont is New Hampshire, which is like so.

新罕布什尔州也很适合佛蒙特州，就像这样。

And here's the Connecticut River.

这里是康涅狄格河。

And I think, in terms of building this libertarian stronghold, the best bet might be to cross the river, "Live free or die," state.

我认为，就建立这个自由主义堡垒而言，最好的选择可能是过河，“不自由，毋宁死”。

And so it begins.

事情就这样开始了。

They start debating drugs, housing, taxes, and the big one, public schools.

他们开始讨论毒品、住房、税收以及最重要的问题——公立学校。

Jason wants to eliminate them.

杰森想要消灭他们。

He explains, that since taxes would be next to nothing in libertarian Vermont, people could afford to pay tuition or home-school their kids.

他解释说，由于自由主义佛蒙特州的税收几乎为零，人们有能力支付学费或在家教育孩子。

The mayor doesn't buy it.

市长不买账。

That's fine, but how about those in our society that are less advantaged, our low and moderate income citizens, others that are vulnerable, seniors, people with physical and mental disabilities?

这很好，但是我们社会中那些弱势群体、低收入和中等收入公民、其他弱势群体、老年人、身体和精神残疾的人呢？

I think if we embraced, wholesale, the libertarian philosophy, I think a lot of those folks would be left behind.

我认为，如果我们全盘接受自由主义哲学，我认为很多人都会被抛在后面。

I haven't heard much discussion as to how their needs and issues would be met in this utopian society.

我没有听到太多关于如何在这个乌托邦社会中满足他们的需求和问题的讨论。

Then Jason does something I've never seen him do.

然后杰森做了一些我从未见过他做过的事情。

He drops the economic theory and tells a personal anecdote.

他放弃了经济理论并讲述了一个个人轶事。

It occurs to me, this is the first time he's ever been in a situation where he had to persuade nonbelievers, liberals, or people who just don't care.

我突然想到，这是他第一次遇到必须说服非信徒、自由主义者或不在乎的人的情况。

Well, I think my own views on that come partly from my own experience.

嗯，我认为我自己的观点部分来自于我自己的经历。

Because I did grow up in a single-parent family, sort of at the poverty-line, four kids.

因为我确实在一个单亲家庭长大，有点接近贫困线，有四个孩子。

I was the oldest of four.

我是四个人中年龄最大的一个。

And my mom didn't believe in taking government subsidies or anything.

我妈妈不相信接受政府补贴或任何东西。

We did kind of rely on charities for a while, and she eventually got a job at a private school.

我们确实有一段时间依赖慈善机构，她最终在一所私立学校找到了一份工作。

So we were able to go to the private school for free, basically.

所以我们基本上可以免费去私立学校。

The public school he went to was terrible, Jason says.

杰森说，他就读的公立学校很糟糕。

The private school was good.

私立学校很好。

So disadvantaged kids like he was might be better off without public schools, which he considers a state-run monopoly.

因此，像他这样的弱势儿童如果没有公立学校可能会过得更好，他认为公立学校是国有垄断的。

Pretty soon, the mayor has to go to church, and Jason talks to other people in the diner.

很快，市长就要去教堂了，杰森和餐厅里的其他人交谈。

For about 20 minutes Jason debates with one guy, who keeps saying he just can't see how it would all work.

Jason 与一个人争论了大约 20 分钟，对方一直说他不明白这一切是如何运作的。

Well, you're backpedalling.

嗯，你倒退了。

I mean, a moment ago you wanted private schools, and now you're willing to settle for just repealing Act 60.

我的意思是，刚才你们想要私立学校，现在你们愿意满足于废除第 60 号法案。

Right, repealing Act 60 would just be a first step.

是的，废除第 60 号法案只是第一步。

By the end of it, Jason has held his own, but he's sweating.

到最后，杰森已经控制住了自己，但他已经出了汗。

Several people we meet warn Jason about the logistical problems his plan would invite.

我们遇到的几个人警告杰森他的计划可能会带来后勤问题。

Among them is Anthony Pollina.

其中包括安东尼·波利纳。

He's a Progressive who ran unsuccessfully for lieutenant governor last year.

他是进步党人，去年竞选副州长失败。

You'll find, if you were to live here, that it's very difficult to change the Vermont Constitution, actually, on a practical level.

如果你住在这里，你会发现实际上很难在实际层面上改变佛蒙特州宪法。

Which is just something that you might want to keep in mind.

您可能需要记住这一点。

It takes about eight years.

大约需要八年时间。

What this movement would represent to Vermont is a major problem with adequate parking.

这一运动对佛蒙特州来说意味着停车位不足的主要问题。

It simply would overburden the system.

它只会使系统负担过重。

And we are talking about a state, largest city in the state has 30,000 people.

我们谈论的是一个州，该州最大的城市有 30,000 人。

So that would certainly represent a major influx of people.

因此，这肯定代表着大量人口的涌入。

And while their intentions may be the best, their strategy of saying that we will bring this large number of people to Vermont tells me two things.

虽然他们的意图可能是最好的，但他们说我们将把这么多人带到佛蒙特州的策略告诉我两件事。

They don't understand Vermont, because Vermonters will react very negatively to that, I believe.

他们不了解佛蒙特州，因为我相信佛蒙特州人对此会做出非常消极的反应。

And secondly, that it actually will present a very practical burden to the state of Vermont.

其次，这实际上会给佛蒙特州带来非常实际的负担。

Which, if nothing else, will generate a lot of resentment from Vermonters.

如果不出意外的话，这将引起佛蒙特州人的强烈不满。

When we leave, Jason seems downcast by what he's heard.

当我们离开时，杰森似乎对他所听到的事情感到沮丧。

I mean, I don't care if Massachusetts goes communist or Utah goes fascist or whatever.

我的意思是，我不在乎马萨诸塞州走向共产主义还是犹他州走向法西斯主义或其他什么。

They can do that if they want, so long as they maintain a democratic system.

只要他们愿意，他们就可以做到这一点，只要他们维持民主制度。

I'm just looking for a place where I and others like me can settle down and have something to call our own.

我只是在寻找一个地方，让我和其他像我一样的人可以安定下来，拥有属于我们自己的东西。

I mean, the problem is, is that other people already call it their own.

我的意思是，问题是，其他人已经把它称为自己的了。

We've built this up in a certain way, because this is the way we like it.

我们以某种方式构建了它，因为这是我们喜欢的方式。

And, essentially, who are you to try to undermine that or try to change that?

从本质上讲，你是谁，竟敢试图破坏这一点或试图改变这一点？

And aren't you going to run into that wherever you go?

无论你走到哪里，你都不会遇到这种情况吗？

Well, we'll run into a little bit of that wherever we go, but I also think we should be given a chance.

好吧，无论我们走到哪里，我们都会遇到一些这样的情况，但我也认为我们应该有机会。

Yeah.

是的。

I mean, I've lived in a variety of places, and that is part of the reason.

我的意思是，我住过很多地方，这就是部分原因。

I never really had that kind of a place growing up that I could say was my home.

在我的成长过程中，从来没有一个真正可以说是我的家的地方。

So I feel kind of homeless.

所以我感觉有点无家可归。

I think a lot of other people do simply because of their views, they don't feel at home where they are.

我认为很多人这样做只是因为他们的观点，他们对自己所在的地方感到不自在。

We walk around downtown Burlington, and I ask Jason to give me a tour.

我们在伯灵顿市中心散步，我请杰森带我参观一下。

I tell him to pretend it's the year 2050 and libertarians have been in control for 30 years.

我告诉他假装现在是 2050 年，自由主义者已经控制了 30 年。

I want to know what will be different.

我想知道会有什么不同。

So what's that seal up there?

那么那里的封印是什么？

We're looking at city hall.

我们正在看市政厅。

Well, city hall would probably still be a government building.

好吧，市政厅可能仍然是政府大楼。

You probably still need one.

您可能还需要一个。

It might be smaller.

它可能更小。

Or we could probably just rent space for our meeting every month or so on the third story of this corner building or something like that.

或者我们可以每个月左右在这座街角建筑的第三层或类似的地方租用我们的会议空间。

So would you sell city hall?

那么你会卖掉市政厅吗？

Jason Sorens Yeah, if we're able to do that, yeah.

Jason Sorens 是的，如果我们能够做到的话，是的。

He tells me private companies would pick up the cigarette butts and styrofoam cups from the streets.

他告诉我，私营公司会从街上捡起烟头和泡沫塑料杯。

On Sundays you could buy scotch and visit a brothel.

周日你可以买苏格兰威士忌并去妓院。

Roads would also be owned by private companies, which would set speed limits and solicit billboard advertising.

道路也将归私营公司所有，这些公司将设定速度限制并招揽广告牌广告。

Zoning would disappear, so McDonald's could open up next to your house, which you could paint any color you wanted.

分区将会消失，麦当劳可以在你家旁边开张，你可以把它漆成你想要的任何颜色。

And everyone has more money, because no one pays taxes.

每个人都有更多的钱，因为没有人纳税。

We cross a street to a snow covered park.

我们穿过一条街，来到了一个白雪覆盖的公园。

The sign says, City Hall Park, City of Burlington, Department of Parks and Recreation.

标牌上写着：市政厅公园、伯灵顿市、公园和娱乐部。

So we we would be eliminating that department and privatizing this common here.

因此，我们将取消该部门并将这里的公共资源私有化。

Privatizing the common?

将共同点私有化？

But the sign, you didn't finish reading it.

但标语是，你还没有读完。

That's right.

这是正确的。

It says, for everyone's enjoyment please no skateboarding, dogs must be leashed, no alcohol or glass bottles.

上面写着，为了大家的享受，请不要玩滑板，狗必须拴住，不要喝酒或玻璃瓶。

Now, see, after this has been sold off, probably some of those rules would still be there.

现在，看，在这个被卖掉之后，其中一些规则可能仍然存在。

I think no skateboarding is probably kind of a silly regulation.

我认为禁止滑板可能是一种愚蠢的规定。

I think that's just pure prejudice on the part of the city officials.

我认为这纯粹是市政府官员的偏见。

No glass bottles, I mean, come on.

我是说，没有玻璃瓶，来吧。

That's a bit extreme too.

这也有点极端了。

Sort of joking, but I don't think areas like this should be tax funded certainly.

有点开玩笑，但我认为这样的领域肯定不应该由税收资助。

It's theft, ultimately.

归根结底是盗窃。

You get something for it.

你会得到一些东西。

You get a public space where people come together and play chess or eat their lunch.

你会得到一个公共空间，人们可以聚在一起下棋或吃午餐。

People want to come here.

人们想来这里。

But if they get something from it, then they should be willing to support it in some way without having to be coerced into it, which is really what taxation is.

但如果他们从中得到了一些东西，那么他们应该愿意以某种方式支持它，而不必被迫这样做，这就是税收的真正含义。

A company buys it, they're not going to keep it as a public park.

公司购买了它，他们不会将其保留为公园。

You don't make money off a public park.

你不能从公园赚钱。

So would we have no-- it would be gated.

所以我们不会——它会被封闭。

So would there be any public space?

那么会有公共空间吗？

Would there be, in the city of Burlington, would we have any public space, purely public space?

在伯灵顿市，我们会有公共空间，纯粹的公共空间吗？

So this is how Jason wants to live.

这就是杰森想要的生活。

The free market would dictate everything and not big corporations, he says, since without big government support, they wouldn't exist.

他说，自由市场将决定一切，而不是大公司，因为如果没有政府的大力支持，它们就不会存在。

But individual business people, free to thrive in a regulation free world.

但个体商人可以在无监管的世界中自由发展。

What's a little weird about this vision is not that it's necessarily wrong.

这个愿景的奇怪之处并不在于它一定是错误的。

After all, the Founding Fathers probably would be shocked at how much power the federal government now has.

毕竟，开国元勋们可能会对联邦政府现在拥有的权力感到震惊。

It's that these fights have already been fought, and the libertarians lost.

而是这些斗争已经打过了，而自由主义者输了。

It's very frustrating, because we're taught when we're young that the American system is an open one, that you can have an influence on, that abides by rules.

这非常令人沮丧，因为我们年轻时就被教导美国的制度是开放的，你可以施加影响，并且遵守规则。

But it doesn't abide by rules anymore.

但它不再遵守规则了。

The government does what it wants.

政府做它想做的事。

And the courts are in the pocket of the legislature, and we have no recourse.

而法院是立法机关的口袋，我们没有追索权。

In other words, it's almost like we're facing a monolithic system that is almost irretrievably lost.

换句话说，这几乎就像我们面临着一个几乎无法挽回地丢失的整体系统。

Jason's hopeful anyway.

无论如何，杰森还是充满希望的。

As he frequently points out, seemingly stranger things have happened in America.

正如他经常指出的那样，美国发生了看似奇怪的事情。

Look at the Mormons, they basically took over a state.

看看摩门教徒，他们基本上接管了一个州。

And there have been other historical migrations-- the pilgrims, freed slaves who fled north after the Civil War.

还有其他历史性的移民——朝圣者、内战后逃往北方的被解放的奴隶。

So why not 20,000 libertarians agitated about the state of modern capitalism?

那么，为什么 20,000 名自由主义者没有对现代资本主义的现状感到不安呢？

Why not a group of people inspired by the anti-federalists Thomas Paine and Patrick Henry?

为什么不是一群受到反联邦主义者托马斯·潘恩和帕特里克·亨利启发的人呢？

Do you ever imagine yourself having conversations with them?

您是否想象过自己与他们交谈？

Actually I do imagine myself sort of in their milieu.

事实上，我确实想象自己处于他们的环境中。

Yes, I have imagined myself.

是的，我想象过我自己。

At the Constitutional Convention or something?

制宪会议之类的？

Well at the Constitutional Convention or, especially, during the Revolution.

在制宪会议上，特别是在革命期间，效果很好。

Would I have been one of the people who took a stand and joined the Revolution?

我会成为表明立场并加入革命的人之一吗？

I think there's a very important question, because, in a lot of ways, you could argue that Americans are now much more oppressed than they were under King George.

我认为这是一个非常重要的问题，因为，在很多方面，你可以说美国人现在比乔治国王统治下受到的压迫要严重得多。

After all, that was just about a Stamp Tax.

毕竟，这只是印花税。

And now we have a lot more than that.

现在我们拥有的远不止这些。

The problem for Jason is that people were mad about the Stamp Tax.

杰森面临的问题是人们对印花税感到愤怒。

But, it's safe to say, the vast majority of Vermonters are not mad about the fact that they have public parks and public schools and zoning laws.

但是，可以肯定地说，绝大多数佛蒙特人并不因为他们拥有公园、公立学校和分区法而感到愤怒。

Jason doesn't see this, or if he does, he doesn't mind.

杰森没有看到这一点，或者即使他看到了，他也不介意。

After all, if he were the sort of person easily intimidated by rotten odds, he wouldn't be leading this movement.

毕竟，如果他是那种容易被不利因素吓倒的人，他就不会领导这场运动。

As he's waiting for his flight at the Burlington airport, I ask him whether, after everything he's heard, Vermont has moved up or down on the list of takeover states?

当他在伯灵顿机场等待航班时，我问他，根据他所听到的一切，佛蒙特州在接管州名单上的排名是上升还是下降？

He thinks for a second, and then says, cheerfully, up.

他想了一会儿，然后高兴地说，起来。

Sarah Koenig is a reporter for the Baltimore Sun.

莎拉·科尼格是《巴尔的摩太阳报》的记者。

Act three, the heart is a lonely junta.

第三幕，心是孤独的军政府。

So what if you didn't want the regime change?

如果你不希望政权更迭怎么办？

What if you didn't see it coming?

如果你没有看到它的到来怎么办？

Cartoonist Jeffrey Brown found himself in that position in his personal life.

漫画家杰弗里·布朗发现自己在个人生活中处于这样的位置。

He was writing this book-like comic about his love for his girlfriend.

他正在写这本类似书的漫画，讲述他对女友的爱。

If you've seen this, it's these scratchy little drawings, hundreds of pages of them.

如果你看过这个，那就是这些粗糙的小图画，有数百页。

Here is a typical page.

这是一个典型的页面。

So this is from the first page of a story called "Morning Shower." And in the first panel, we've just woken up.

这是一个叫做“早晨阵雨”的故事的第一页。在第一个面板中，我们刚刚醒来。

And she says, Teresa says to me, hi.

她说，特蕾莎对我说，嗨。

And I say, good morning.

我说，早上好。

In the second panel, I kind of lean over and I'm kissing her, and she's got her arm around my neck again, and her eyes are closed.

在第二个画面中，我稍微倾身亲吻她，她再次用手臂搂住我的脖子，她闭上了眼睛。

And the third panel, I'm looking into her eyes and I say, you're pretty.

第三个面板，我看着她的眼睛，我说，你很漂亮。

And in the fourth panel, she just kind of smiles back and puts her hand on my cheek.

在第四个面板中，她只是回以微笑，并将手放在我的脸颊上。

And the next panel, I ask her, hey, do you want to take a shower together?

在下一个面板中，我问她，嘿，你想一起洗澡吗？

And in the last panel, she smiles and says, OK.

在最后一个面板中，她微笑着说，好吧。

Now this is from your book, a novel in pictures and words, called Clumsy .

这是你的书里的一段图画文字小说，名叫《笨拙》。

It's 200 pages long, and every page is pretty much some moment of you adoring her.

这本书有 200 页长，每一页几乎都是你爱她的某个时刻。

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

It was kind of intended to be this kind of tribute to the relationship, like a celebration of it.

这是对这种关系的一种致敬，就像是对它的庆祝。

And while I was writing it, we ended up breaking up.

当我写这篇文章时，我们最终分手了。

So that kind of changed the ending I had planned.

所以这改变了我计划的结局。

Was she when one of your first girlfriends or your first girlfriend?

她是你的第一个女朋友还是你的第一个女朋友？

She was my second girlfriend.

她是我的第二个女朋友。

The only other girlfriend I'd had was a two month long relationship.

我唯一的另一个女朋友是一段长达两个月的恋爱关系。

So it was a new experience.

所以这是一种新的体验。

And so how long after you broke up were you still drawing the comic book?

那么分手后多久你还在画漫画呢？

About two weeks, two and a half weeks.

大约两周、两周半。

I just remember a lot of moping, just a lot of being obviously sad.

我只记得很多郁闷，很多明显的悲伤。

And then drawing 10 pages and then crying afterward.

然后画了10页，然后就哭了。

It's not necessarily the best way to get over someone, I guess.

我想这不一定是忘记某人的最好方法。

So for two and a half weeks, you're basically drawing her face over and over and over again.

所以在两个半星期的时间里，你基本上一遍又一遍地画她的脸。

But, I mean, when you break up with someone aren't you just drawing their face over and over and over again anyway?

但是，我的意思是，当你和某人分手时，你不是一遍又一遍地画他们的脸吗？

So it's just like I was doing something instead of sitting there thinking about it.

所以这就像我正在做某事而不是坐在那里思考它。

So you've agreed to adapt some of these to read over the radio.

因此，您同意将其中一些内容改编为通过广播阅读。

I should say to listeners who are listening with children, you do refer to sex, the fact that sex occurs, not with a lot of explicitness.

我应该对那些和孩子一起听的听众说，你确实提到了性，性发生的事实，但没有很明确。

So let's hear it.

那么让我们听听吧。

OK.

好的。

So this is one of those linchpin stories that anyone with any sense realizes that something is horribly wrong with their relationship.

所以这是关键故事之一，任何有理智的人都会意识到他们的关系出了严重的问题。

It's called "Cigarette."

它的名字叫“香烟”。

We're sitting outside in the motel parking lot.

我们坐在汽车旅馆外面的停车场。

Someone asks if anyone else wants a cigarette.

有人问是否还有人想要一支烟。

"Do you mind if I have one?" Teresa asks me.

“你介意我有一个吗？”特蕾莎问我。

"You know how I feel," I say, "it's your decision."

“你知道我的感受，”我说，“这是你的决定。”

She smokes, and I go inside the motel room and listen to them through the window talking about drinking and smoking.

她抽烟，我走进汽车旅馆房间，透过窗户听他们谈论喝酒和抽烟。

When she's done, she comes into the room, and my shirt that she's wearing smells like smoke.

当她完成后，她走进房间，她穿的我的衬衫闻起来有烟味。

"I came to see how angry you are with me," she says.

“我是来看看你对我有多生气，”她说。

"You know I hate smoking," I say.

“你知道我讨厌吸烟，”我说。

"I don't need you making me feel like an evil person every time I do something," she says.

“我不需要每次我做某事时你都让我感觉自己像个邪恶的人，”她说。

"I gave up smoking weed for you and that's a pretty big thing.

“我为了你戒掉了大麻，这是一件非常大的事情。

I can't hold your hand 24 hours a day, can't kiss you 24 hours a day, can't have sex with you 24 hours a day."

我不能24小时牵你的手，不能24小时亲你，不能24小时和你做爱。”

I stare at the wall above her head.

我盯着她头顶上方的墙。

She sits there calmly with her arms crossed, waiting.

她静静地坐在那儿，双臂交叉，等待着。

After you broke up, what's the strip you wrote immediately after?

分手后，你紧接着写的连环画是什么？

What's the next one?

下一篇是什么？

OK, why don't you read that?

好吧，你为什么不读一下呢？

Jeffery Brown This is called "Book of Kisses."

杰弗里·布朗这本书被称为《吻之书》。

For Christmas I draw a book of kisses for her.

圣诞节我为她画了一本吻书。

It has drawings of 112 different kisses, soft kisses, French kisses, nibbles on the ear, pecks on the forehead.

它有 112 个不同的吻图，包括轻吻、法式吻、轻咬耳朵、轻吻额头。

She wants to open presents right away, and she has me open mine first.

她想立即打开礼物，她让我先打开我的。

I give her the book, and she looks at it and kisses me and hugs me.

我把书给了她，她看着它，亲吻了我，拥抱了我。

She looks at it again.

她又看了一遍。

"My presents are never as good as yours," she says.

“我的礼物从来没有你的好，”她说。

Is there a part of going back and drawing and then having these moments which is partly about just figuring out what went wrong?

是否有一部分是回去画画，然后度过这些时刻，部分是为了找出哪里出了问题？

Yeah, only in retrospect, though.

是的，不过只是回顾一下。

Some of the stories that like seem like total foreshadowing we're just like, oh, that was something that I remember happening.

有些故事看起来像是完全的伏笔，我们就像，哦，那是我记得发生过的事情。

I didn't think it was too bad.

我不认为这太糟糕了。

Then I write the story and then looking back it's like-- everyone that reads Clumsy seems to see it coming, and I just never did.

然后我写了这个故事，然后回头看，就像每个读过《笨拙》的人似乎都预见到了它的到来，但我从来没有这样做过。