231: Time to Save the World - This American Life
You are using an outdated browser.
您正在使用过时的浏览器。
Please upgrade your browser or activate Google Chrome Frame to improve your experience.
请升级您的浏览器或激活 Google Chrome 浏览器内嵌框架以改善您的体验。
Sign up for a free Life Partners trial, and you can watch the video “A Night of Stories and Improv.”
注册免费试用《Life Partners》，您可以观看视频“故事与即兴表演之夜”。
00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #231 | February 7, 2003 231: Time to Save the World Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 231 集 | 2003 年 2 月 7 日 231：拯救世界的时间到了 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass It was one of those jobs that could either fill you with a sense of despair, or make you feel like you love the world and fill you with a sense of mission every day.
序言 Ira Glass 这是一份要么让你充满绝望感，要么让你觉得你热爱这个世界，让你每天都充满使命感的工作。
Michael Beaumier chose the second path.
迈克尔·博米尔选择了第二条路。
I always ask people, are you married?
我总是问别人，你结婚了吗？
Are you dating?
你在约会吗？
Is it serious?
严重吗？
What are you looking for?
你要买什么？
Michael Beaumier runs the personals ads for a weekly paper, the Chicago Reader.
迈克尔·博米尔 (Michael Beaumier) 为周报《芝加哥读者》投放征婚广告。
And he takes it so to heart that he is constantly talking to people who place the ads.
他对此铭记于心，不断与投放广告的人交谈。
He not only tells them how to fix their ads so they can find the kind of person they might want, he remembers them.
他不仅告诉他们如何修改广告，以便他们找到他们可能想要的人，他还记得他们。
If he talks to somebody else who might like them, he tells that person to look up their ad.
如果他与可能喜欢他们的其他人交谈，他会告诉那个人查看他们的广告。
If somebody called me and said, is there an ad that I should answer this week?
如果有人打电话给我说，这周有我应该回复的广告吗？
And they told me a little bit about what they're looking for.
他们告诉我一些他们正在寻找的东西。
I think that off the top of my head I could say, yeah, here are three people that you should respond to.
我想我可以立刻说，是的，你应该对这三个人做出回应。
How many of the people in the personals do you know personally, have you talked to yourself?
交友中有多少人是您认识的，您曾与自己交谈过吗？
Well, I try really hard to not be involved.
好吧，我真的很努力不参与其中。
Dozens.
几十个。
Michael Beaumier Dozens, yeah.
迈克尔·博米尔（Michael Beaumier），是的。
And I keep lots of notes in my office too, in terms of, well, here's this woman.
我在办公室里也保留了很多笔记，关于，嗯，这是这个女人。
And she's looking for a date.
她正在寻找约会对象。
So I'll give her a call and go, hey, you know, here is this guy.
所以我会给她打电话，然后说，嘿，你知道，这就是这个人。
He's in this week.
他这周就到了。
You should call him.
你应该给他打电话。
I'm not supposed to do that.
我不应该那样做。
But I do it anyhow because I just can't help myself.
但我还是这么做了，因为我无法控制自己。
In a way, it's hard to believe that the perfect person ended up in that job.
在某种程度上，很难相信完美的人最终会从事这份工作。
A few years back, Michael noticed in the missed connections section of the personals-- you know that section where people say, I saw you on the Clark Street bus.
几年前，迈克尔在交友的错过转机部分中注意到——你知道那个部分人们说，我在克拉克街公交车上看到你。
Our eyes locked.
我们的目光锁定了。
Call me.
打电话给我。
There was this guy who was taking out one missed connections ad after another.
有一个人正在发布一个又一个错过连接的广告。
Five of them, 10 of them, 15 of them.
其中五个，十个，十五个。
He had people that he would see on the train.
他有一些他会在火车上见到的人。
You were the Asian woman in the purple dress.
你就是那个穿紫色裙子的亚洲女人。
You were reading Ayn Rand.
你正在读安·兰德的书。
Or I saw you at Gamekeepers.
或者我在猎场看守人那里见过你。
You were the brown-haired girl.
你就是那个棕色头发的女孩。
Your hair was in a pony tail.
你的头发扎成马尾辫。
You were wearing an Ohio State sweatshirt.
你穿着俄亥俄州立大学的运动衫。
15 ads like this.
15个这样的广告。
Michael Beaumier 15 ads.
迈克尔·博米尔 15 个广告。
He would see women all over town, Wicker Park, Bucktown, the trains out to O'Hare, at O'Hare, on flights back from places to come back to Chicago.
他会在镇上、威克公园、巴克敦、开往奥黑尔的火车、在奥黑尔、从其他地方返回芝加哥的航班上看到女人。
And it was just getting crazy.
它变得越来越疯狂。
And he really, really meant them.
他真的、真的是认真的。
They were very, very earnest ads.
它们是非常非常认真的广告。
He would come in sometimes.
他有时会进来。
Usually he would email ads to me or he would give them to me over the phone.
通常他会通过电子邮件将广告发送给我，或者通过电话将广告发送给我。
I would talk to him over the phone at least twice a week.
我每周至少和他通两次电话。
Did you ever see him?
你见过他吗？
Michael Beaumier Oh, yeah.
迈克尔·博米尔 噢，是的。
I saw him a couple of times.
我见过他几次。
Cute?
可爱的？
Michael Beaumier Oh, yeah.
迈克尔·博米尔 噢，是的。
Yes, very cute.
是的，非常可爱。
But just really, really quiet.
但真的真的真的很安静。
And I think some people find quiet to be creepy.
我认为有些人觉得安静令人毛骨悚然。
But he was quiet kind of like he didn't want to impose on anybody by having conversation with them, that he felt that he wasn't an interesting person.
但他很安静，就像他不想通过与他们交谈来强加给任何人一样，他觉得自己不是一个有趣的人。
And I think that he was a very interesting person.
我认为他是一个非常有趣的人。
Michael would give him these little pep talks, encourage him to start speaking to these women instead of just seeing them and then taking out an ad.
迈克尔会给他一些小小的鼓舞人心的演讲，鼓励他开始与这些女性交谈，而不是仅仅看到她们然后就发布广告。
And weeks passed of this.
几周过去了。
And months passed.
几个月过去了。
And finally, Michael just got tired.
最后，迈克尔累了。
And he wrote him this letter.
他给他写了这封信。
He told him to make 20 copies and carry them with him wherever he goes.
他让他复印20份并随身携带。
This is what I wrote.
这是我写的。
It reads, "To whom it may concern.
上面写着：“与它可能相关的人。
My name is Mike Beaumier.
我叫迈克·博米尔。
I run the personal ad department at the Reader, the matches.
我负责《读者》、《比赛》的个人广告部门。
The gentleman who handed you this note is named Bill.
递给你这张纸条的那位先生名叫比尔。
I've come to know Bill very well.
我已经非常了解比尔了。
In many ways, he reminds me of my father, quiet, decent, dedicated, someone who probably falls under the radar for most people.
在很多方面，他让我想起了我的父亲，安静、正派、敬业，可能是大多数人忽视的人。
He neither drinks nor smokes.
他既不喝酒也不抽烟。
He is close to his parents and siblings.
他与父母和兄弟姐妹很亲近。
He has a job, a home, a car, and some place to be in the morning, and many friends who, like me, think highly of him.
他有工作、有家、有车、早上可以去的地方，还有很多像我一样对他评价很高的朋友。
Once you get to know the guy, you'll wonder why nobody snapped him up yet.
一旦你了解了这个人，你就会想知道为什么还没人抢购他。
I often do, and romance is my business.
我经常这样做，浪漫是我的事。
Anyway, here is why I'm writing this letter.
无论如何，这就是我写这封信的原因。
Bill is very shy.
比尔非常害羞。
I'm not sure why.
我不知道为什么。
He's very smart and really funny.
他非常聪明而且非常有趣。
I'm asking you, someone I do not know, to please, please, please save us all a lot of trouble and let this man buy you a cup of coffee.
我请求你，一个我不认识的人，请你，请你，请你帮我们大家省去很多麻烦，让这个人请你喝杯咖啡。
Because if you don't, Bill is just going to put in another missed connections ad in my paper.
因为如果你不这样做，比尔就会在我的报纸上再放一个失去联系的广告。
And I will once more have to give him another lecture about having the courage to approach interesting women.
我将不得不再次给他上一堂课，教他如何有勇气接近有趣的女人。
If Bill doesn't give you his home phone number, I will.
如果比尔不给你他的家庭电话号码，我会的。
Please feel free to call me at my office number below.
请随时拨打下面我的办公室电话号码给我打电话。
Sincerely, Mike Beaumier, matches coordinator, Chicago Reader.
此致，《芝加哥读者》比赛协调员迈克·博米尔 (Mike Beaumier)。
And I think that he used it, because I had maybe one more ad from him after this.
我认为他使用了它，因为在此之后我可能又收到了他的广告。
And then it stopped.
然后它就停了。
OK.
好的。
By any standards, that is above and beyond the call of duty.
无论以任何标准衡量，这都超出了职责范围。
And there are so many people out there like this, little guardian angels in all sorts of walks of life, trying to save the world one person at a time.
世界上有很多这样的人，他们是各行各业的小守护天使，试图一次一个人地拯救世界。
Today on our radio program, stories of people like that.
今天我们的广播节目播放这样的人的故事。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life distributed by Public Radio International.
这是来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
In collecting the stories for today's radio show, it became clear to all of us who work on the program that not only did most of these stories have to do with people saving the world, in every story people have these sudden moments of truth delivered to them by complete strangers.
在收集今天广播节目的故事时，我们所有参与该节目的人都清楚地意识到，这些故事不仅大部分都与人们拯救世界有关，而且在每个故事中，人们都有完全陌生的人向他们传达的突然的真相时刻。
Act One of our show today, The Rundown.
我们今天的节目第一幕，《The Rundown》。
In that act, the story of one girl's mission to bring people together everywhere by eliminating small talk forever.
在那一幕中，讲述了一个女孩的使命是通过永远消除闲聊来将世界各地的人们聚集在一起。
It can happen in our lifetimes, friends.
朋友们，这可能发生在我们的有生之年。
Act Two, Heather Help Me.
第二幕，希瑟帮助我。
The story of some teenagers, a telephone, and a man who only answers to a name that is not his.
一些青少年、一部电话和一个只接听不属于他的名字的男人的故事。
Act Three, Fools Rush in Where Mommies Fear to Tread.
第三幕，傻瓜冲进妈妈不敢涉足的地方。
In that act, an art history professor tries to talk with his fists.
在那一幕中，一位艺术史教授试图用拳头说话。
Act Four, The Science of Good and Bad.
第四幕，善与恶的科学。
The story of a simple test, just two lists of 18 items each, designed to tell you who you are, increase good, identify evil, one person at a time.
一个简单测试的故事，只有两个列表，每个列表有 18 个项目，旨在告诉你你是谁，增加善行，识别邪恶，一次一个人。
When our reporter takes the test herself, the results spook her for weeks.
当我们的记者亲自进行测试时，结果让她惊慌了好几个星期。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, The Rundown.
第一幕，纲要。
Well, one of the producers of our radio show, Starlee Kine, in addition to her many duties here at the public radio station, has been going around giving a lecture, proselytizing on behalf of something that she invented that she calls The Rundown.
好吧，我们广播节目的制作人之一斯塔莉·凯恩（Starlee Kine）除了在公共广播电台履行许多职责外，还四处演讲，为她发明的、她称之为“The Rundown”的东西进行宣传。
Her idea is this.
她的想法是这样的。
Very, very simple.
非常非常简单。
Small talk is not bringing us together.
闲聊并没有让我们聚在一起。
Small talk is the enemy.
闲聊是敌人。
Small talk must end.
闲聊必须结束。
And she proposes replacing small talk with The Rundown.
她建议用《纲要》取代闲聊。
A warning to more sensitive listeners.
对更敏感的听众的警告。
She refers to the idea of virgins and sex in this brief lecture.
她在这个简短的演讲中提到了处女和性的概念。
This was recorded at one of her public lectures.
这是她在一次公开演讲中录制的。
I know a lot about small talk, because I worked in an office.
我对闲聊很了解，因为我在办公室工作。
And there is a lot of small talk that goes on.
还有很多闲聊。
There are like all these different forms of it.
它有很多不同的形式。
There is like water cooler small talk.
就像饮水机闲聊一样。
And there's elevator small talk, which actually isn't even that bad, because most people think elevator small talk is the worse kind.
还有电梯闲聊，实际上并没有那么糟糕，因为大多数人认为电梯闲聊是最糟糕的一种。
But actually, I think it's OK, because it is finite.
但实际上，我认为没关系，因为它是有限的。
You know it's going to end at a certain point, which I appreciate very much.
你知道一切都会在某个时刻结束，我非常感激。
There's even bathroom small talk where I work, which is like the worst thing you're ever going to experience in your entire life.
我工作的地方甚至还有卫生间里的闲聊，这就像你一生中经历过的最糟糕的事情。
There will be people small talking through the stalls.
摊位上会有人小声交谈。
I actually have some audio of small talk to play for you.
实际上我有一些闲聊的音频可以给你播放。
Coffee is on its way.
咖啡正在路上。
Here is a special selection of the Viking blend.
这是精选的维京混合酒。
And I have to get back to work.
我必须回去工作。
That's what happened in my office.
这就是我办公室里发生的事情。
Almost every day that seems to happen, actually.
事实上，几乎每天都会发生这样的事情。
We know we are drinking coffee.
我们知道我们正在喝咖啡。
It's being made.
它正在制作中。
But for some reason, when you do small talk-- when you're caught in the trap of small talk-- you feel you just have to talk about what's immediately happening in front of you, even though it's so obvious.
但出于某种原因，当你闲聊时——当你陷入闲聊的陷阱时——你觉得你只需要谈论眼前发生的事情，即使它是如此明显。
And it's not even his fault.
这甚至不是他的错。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思吗？
Everyone does it.
每个人都这样做。
And so I can't take it anymore.
所以我不能再忍受了。
So I devised The Rundown to eliminate small talk forever from the world.
所以我设计了《The Rundown》来永远消除世界上的闲聊。
I want it to be done with.
我想让它完成。
The Rundown, the goal of The Rundown is it's supposed to turn conversations from the conversations you're supposed to be having to the conversations you want to be having.
The Rundown，The Rundown 的目标是将对话从你应该进行的对话转变为你想要进行的对话。
And so I also have an example of The Rundown.
所以我还有一个《The Rundown》的例子。
I went to a movie.
我去看电影了。
And there's a ticket guy selling tickets.
还有售票员在卖票。
And I just started talking to him.
我刚刚开始和他说话。
So it can be done on anyone.
所以它可以对任何人进行。
I didn't pay for them.
我没有付钱给他们。
My girlfriend bought them.
我女朋友买的。
OK.
好的。
So if you're thinking small talk, you're going to go after the ramen noodles, right?
所以如果你想闲聊，你就会去吃拉面，对吧？
Like what kind of ramen noodles, hot water, meat, something like that.
比如什么拉面，热水，肉什么的。
But if you're doing The Rundown, you just seize on the most interesting part of the conversation.
但如果你正在制作《The Rundown》，你只需抓住对话中最有趣的部分即可。
And so he did give me a very, very valuable clue.
所以他确实给了我一个非常非常有价值的线索。
He gave me this wonderful girlfriend character to work with.
他给了我一个很棒的女朋友角色来合作。
From that, you can proceed to--
由此，您可以继续——
But you don't know if-- you're not in love?
但你不知道你是否——你没有恋爱？
Oh, well, I think yeah.
哦，好吧，我想是的。
I am definitely in love.
我绝对恋爱了。
OK.
好的。
So that's a little bit more to go with.
所以还有一点需要配合。
Now we know he's capable of love, which is a lot more than knowing that he just had ramen noodles.
现在我们知道他有爱的能力，这比知道他只是吃了拉面要重要得多。
And from there the possibilities just open up wide.
从那里开始，可能性就变得广阔了。
You can pretty much go for anything now.
现在你几乎可以做任何事了。
So then you just keep going.
那么你就继续吧。
So how many one night stands have you had?
那么你有过多少次一夜情？
Well, I know how many girls I've been with.
好吧，我知道我和多少个女孩在一起过。
But I never really counted which of them were one night stands exactly.
但我从来没有真正数过其中哪些是一夜情。
34 and 1/2.
34和1/2。
How many virgins?
有多少处女？
Ticket Guy Estimate?
票务员估价？
Roughly, probably four or five.
粗略估计，大概有四五个。
So you might think how many virgins is an inappropriate question.
所以你可能会认为有多少处女是一个不恰当的问题。
But I actually think it's like the perfect fallback if you have nothing else to ask.
但我实际上认为，如果您没有其他问题可问，这就像一个完美的后备方案。
You know I mean?
你知道我的意思吗？
Because as you can see, it's totally OK.
因为如您所见，完全没问题。
He doesn't mind telling you.
他不介意告诉你。
People are just wait-- they love to talk about themselves.
人们只是等待——他们喜欢谈论自己。
And that's what people want.
这就是人们想要的。
And they also like to be asked questions that they have answers for.
他们也喜欢被问到他们有答案的问题。
He completely knows the answer to how many virgins.
他完全知道有多少处女的答案。
So then they feel good about themselves.
所以他们自我感觉良好。
And they'll keep going.
他们会继续前进。
And from there it is pretty smooth sailing.
从那里开始，一切都非常顺利。
The first one that came along was for two and a half years.
第一次出现是两年半的时间。
That was the first girl I was ever with though.
那是我第一个在一起的女孩。
That was?
那是？
Ticket Guy She was a virgin too.
售票员 她也是处女。
We were both virgins.
我们都是处女。
It was good.
很好。
But it was weird.
但这很奇怪。
It was kind of like an all day all around town sort of thing, because it started at her grandparents' house, which was in this all yellow room.
这有点像在镇上一整天的活动，因为它是从她祖父母家开始的，就在这个全黄色的房间里。
The sheets were yellow, the window curtains were yellow.
床单是黄色的，窗帘也是黄色的。
And it just wasn't working out.
但它就是没有成功。
It was kind of-- So then we drove out to this spot by a drive in movie screen that was abandoned.
有点——所以然后我们通过一个废弃的电影屏幕开车到这个地方。
But it was a good experience altogether.
但这总体来说是一次很好的经历。
I enjoyed it.
我很享受。
So that was a minute and 26 seconds.
那是 1 分 26 秒。
And now, after a minute and 26 through The Rundown, I know what he's had for breakfast, that he is capable of love, how many girls he has slept with, how many of them are virgins, who he first lost his virginity to, and even the color wallpaper of her grandmother's house.
现在，在读完《The Rundown》一分零二十六分之后，我知道他早餐吃了什么，他有能力去爱，他睡过多少个女孩，其中有多少是处女，他第一次失去童贞的对象是谁，甚至她祖母家的彩色壁纸。
So that's pretty good.
所以这非常好。
That's a pretty successful Rundown.
这是一个相当成功的纲要。
And there are a few simple rules for everyone to be able to do it just like this, eventually.
最终，每个人都可以通过一些简单的规则来做到这一点。
So the first rule is, number one, small talk is the conversation you're supposed to be having.
所以第一条规则是，第一，闲聊是你应该进行的对话。
And The Rundown is the conversation you want to be having.
The Rundown 是您想要进行的对话。
Number two is, why chew the fat, when you can chew the meat?
第二个问题是，当你可以咀嚼肉时，为什么还要咀嚼脂肪呢？
Also very important.
也非常重要。
Number three is, if you can think it, you can ask it.
第三，如果你能想到，你就能问。
And then, if all else fails-- or even if all else doesn't fail-- number four is, how many virgins?
然后，如果其他一切都失败了——或者即使其他一切都没有失败——第四个问题是，有多少处女？
So, that's The Rundown.
这就是《纲要》。
Starlee Kine, speaking at The Little Gray Book Lectures at the Galapagos Art Space in New York.
斯塔莉·凯恩 (Starlee Kine) 在纽约加拉帕戈斯艺术空间举行的小灰书讲座上发表演讲。
Well, this brings us to Act Two, an act we're calling Heather Help Us.
好吧，这让我们进入第二幕，我们称之为“希瑟帮助我们”。
It is this story of people reaching out and giving the rundown of their lives to a complete stranger.
这是一个关于人们向一个完全陌生的人伸出援手并讲述他们生活的故事。
Jessica Riddle tells the tale.
杰西卡·里德尔讲述了这个故事。
Recently, I remembered this thing that happened back when I was in high school.
最近，我想起了高中时发生的这件事。
And it was so incredible that I sort of wondered whether it really happened.
这太令人难以置信了，我有点想知道这是否真的发生过。
What it was was when I was around 15, my friends and I used to call this number.
当我15岁左右的时候，我和我的朋友们经常拨打这个号码。
It was our area code plus the name Heather, H-E-A-T-H-E-R.
这是我们的区号加上名字希瑟，H-E-A-T-H-E-R。
An old man would answer the phone and talk to you about anything.
一个老人会接电话并和你谈论任何事情。
It was kind of creepy, I remember.
我记得这有点令人毛骨悚然。
So I checked around.
所以我四处查看。
It turns out my friend Kirsten had the same memory too.
事实证明我的朋友克尔斯滕也有同样的记忆。
Well, it started out as sort of an urban legend.
嗯，它最初是一个都市传说。
We'd be at parties or something, and they would just be like, yeah, you know when you dial Heather, H-E-A-T-H-E-R.
我们会参加聚会或其他什么活动，他们会说，是的，你知道，当你拨打希瑟的电话时，H-E-A-T-H-E-R。
And you can talk to him about anything.
而且你可以和他谈论任何事情。
And I think at parties or something people would call him and be like, so, how many little boys have you got locked in your basement?
我想在聚会或其他场合人们会这样称呼他，然后问，你的地下室里锁了多少个小男孩？
And they would just mess with him.
他们只会惹恼他。
I remember sort of sicking Heather on people, like them being like, you know, I wish that so and so would just get off my back.
我记得人们对希瑟的态度有点恶心，就像他们说，你知道，我希望某某人能摆脱我的困扰。
And I'd be like, call Heather.
我想，给希瑟打电话。
You know?
你知道吗？
Just call Heather.
只要打电话给希瑟就可以了。
Well there was a fair amount of passing the phone around, just to get your words in or just hear what he had to say.
嗯，有相当多的时间传递电话，只是为了听听他要说的话。
But I think it was more like sleepovers and things.
但我认为这更像是过夜之类的事情。
It was more like crank calling him at first.
一开始给他打电话更像是一个怪人。
But over time, it seemed like the prank conversations evolved into more regular conversations.
但随着时间的推移，恶作剧谈话似乎演变成了更常规的谈话。
I remember friends of mine calling and asking questions like, hey, Heather, what's 44 down?
我记得我的朋友打电话问一些问题，比如，嘿，希瑟，44 号是多少？
Heather, what do you think?
希瑟，你觉得怎么样？
Should I join the lacrosse team?
我应该加入长曲棍球队吗？
Heather, what do you think of the color green?
希瑟，你觉得绿色怎么样？
But I didn't realize how serious the conversations were until Kirsten told me this story.
但直到克尔斯滕告诉我这个故事，我才意识到谈话有多么严肃。
One night I came home late.
一天晚上，我很晚才回家。
And things were really screwed up with the family at that point.
那时家庭的事情真的搞砸了。
My sister was in either the hospital or boarding school.
我姐姐要么在医院，要么在寄宿学校。
And my parents had separated at that point.
那时我的父母已经分居了。
And I was just feeling awful.
我只是感觉很糟糕。
And it just occurred to me that I could call Heather.
我突然想到我可以给希瑟打电话。
What had you been out doing?
你出去做什么了？
Do you remember?
你还记得吗？
Well, I was probably out drinking somewhere.
嗯，我可能是出去喝酒了。
So yeah, you probably dropped me off at home.
是的，你可能把我送到家里了。
And I went up to my room.
我上楼回到自己的房间。
And well, I probably sulked for about 20 minutes.
好吧，我可能生了大约 20 分钟的闷气。
But then I decided to call him.
但后来我决定给他打电话。
I think I just needed someone to talk to.
我想我只是需要有人倾诉而已。
I really was just trying to think.
我真的只是想思考一下。
Should I call my grandmother?
我应该给我奶奶打电话吗？
Should I call that girl I was friends with that summer four years ago or something?
我应该称呼四年前那个夏天和我成为朋友的女孩还是其他什么名字？
Like who can I talk to?
比如我可以和谁说话？
And we had probably-- maybe we had prank called him that evening.
那天晚上我们可能——也许我们恶作剧地给他打电话了。
And so I decided to call him back.
所以我决定给他回电话。
And I am not quite sure what my motives were for doing it.
我不太确定我这样做的动机是什么。
It was just I knew that he would pick up the phone, even though it was probably 1 o'clock, 2 o'clock in the morning.
我只是知道他会接电话，尽管现在大概是凌晨1点、2点。
And I knew that he would listen to me.
我知道他会听我的。
And he wouldn't change the subject.
他不会改变话题。
Kirsten's life was pretty bad around this time.
克尔斯滕这段时间的生活非常糟糕。
Besides her parents' divorce, one of her sisters had a fatal brain disease, had lived in a hospital almost all her life and was never able to walk or talk or be part of the family.
除了父母离婚之外，她的一个姐妹患有致命的脑部疾病，几乎一生都住在医院里，永远无法走路、说话或成为家庭的一员。
And her other sister had recently tried to kill herself.
她的另一个姐姐最近试图自杀。
I just started telling him about it, and that I felt really helpless and hopeless when it came to my sister who was in the hospital.
我刚刚开始告诉他这件事，当谈到我住院的姐姐时，我感到非常无助和绝望。
And that she didn't realize how much we loved her.
她没有意识到我们有多么爱她。
And she didn't value her own life.
而她也不珍惜自己的生命。
And that was something that Heather and I discussed, feelings of guilt and feelings of anger towards people that you're supposed to love.
这就是希瑟和我讨论过的事情，对你应该爱的人的内疚感和愤怒感。
Just to repeat to somebody over and over again, I'm guilty.
只是一遍又一遍地向某人重复，我有罪。
I feel guilty.
我感到内疚。
I feel awful.
我感觉很糟糕。
Because Heather-- because I couldn't see his face, because I didn't have to run into him at the grocery store or on the street, I think that made it a lot easier to tell the truth, be honest with myself and honest with my feelings, just because he was some guy on the other line who was just listening to me.
因为希瑟——因为我看不到他的脸，因为我不必在杂货店或街上遇到他，我认为这样更容易说实话，对自己诚实，对我的感受诚实，只是因为他是电话另一端的某个人，只是在听我说话。
And he didn't say, well, this is what I would do or this is what you should do.
他没有说，好吧，这就是我会做的或者这是你应该做的。
It was just brief statements, just like, oh, that must have been terrible, or it sounds like your mother has really tried hard to get your sister well, or something.
这只是简短的陈述，就像，哦，那一定很糟糕，或者听起来你妈妈真的很努力让你妹妹康复，或者其他什么。
Then when I told him that my oldest sister had never been able to talk to me, he was like, oh, that must be devastating.
然后，当我告诉他我的大姐姐一直无法和我说话时，他说，哦，这一定是毁灭性的。
Tiny little statements that were just sympathetic.
一些小小的言论只是表示同情。
I couldn't believe Kirsten could actually confess like this to Heather.
我不敢相信克尔斯滕真的可以向希瑟这样坦白。
Prank call Heather?
恶作剧电话希瑟？
That weird old guy we make fun of at parties?
那个我们在聚会上取笑的奇怪的老家伙？
I hope he knows that what he did for me, that I really appreciate him listening to me.
我希望他知道他为我做了什么，我真的很感激他听我说话。
And I just hope that he knows that he's not a scumbag and that he's helped me.
我只是希望他知道他不是一个渣男，他帮助了我。
It would be nice to tell him thank you again.
如果能再次告诉他谢谢就好了。
I almost don't want to hear what he has to say about it, because it was something that was really personal for me.
我几乎不想听他对此说什么，因为这对我来说是非常私人的事情。
And I couldn't bear it if he won't think it's as special as I do.
如果他不像我一样认为这很特别，我就无法忍受。
I wonder if he really cares, or if he just wanted to listen just to hear about different people.
我想知道他是否真的在乎，或者他只是想听听不同的人的看法。
Whatever happened to Heather?
希瑟出了什么事？
Was he still alive?
他还活着吗？
Did he still have the same number?
他还有同样的号码吗？
I picked up the phone and dialed H-E-A-T-H-E-R.
我拿起电话，拨通了H-E-A-T-H-E-R。
Sure enough, he answered.
果然，他回答了。
And he agreed to talk to me for this story, so long as I didn't give out his real name.
他同意就这个故事与我交谈，只要我不透露他的真实姓名。
We arranged for me to call him the next day from the radio studio.
我们安排我第二天从广播工作室给他打电话。
Hello.
你好。
Jessica Riddle Hi, Heather.
杰西卡·里德尔 嗨，希瑟。
It's Jessica.
是杰西卡。
How are you?
你好吗？
I'm pretty good.
我很好。
How are you doing today?
你今天过得怎么样？
I'm very good.
我很好。
Do you remember our conversation last night?
你还记得我们昨晚的谈话吗？
Yeah, a little bit of it.
是的，有一点点。
Jessica Riddle OK.
杰西卡·里德尔 好的。
Well, I'm calling you back from the radio now.
好吧，我现在用无线电给你回电话。
And I wanted to go ahead and ask you some questions.
我想继续问你一些问题。
Is that all right?
这样可以吗？
I'll try.
我会尝试的。
Jessica Riddle OK, great.
杰西卡·里德尔 好吧，太棒了。
There's something I'm dying to know about, which is how did this start?
有件事我很想知道，这件事是如何开始的？
It started way back in 1951, when some kids were having a sleepover.
这要追溯到 1951 年，当时一些孩子正在过夜。
And one of them happened to have the name Heather.
其中一位碰巧名叫希瑟。
And she said, well, call my name and see if anybody answers the phone.
她说，好吧，叫我的名字，看看是否有人接电话。
So when they did I answered the phone, and carried on a nice conversation with them.
因此，当他们这样做时，我接了电话，并与他们进行了愉快的交谈。
And it has been going on ever since.
从那时起，这种情况就一直在发生。
You've been talking to people on the phone for over 50 years?
您已经通过电话与人们交谈了 50 多年吗？
Yeah, I guess so.
是的，我想是的。
I never did figure it that way.
我从来没有这么想过。
But time flies by too fast.
但时间过得太快了。
During our conversation, I found out a lot of things about Heather that I had never thought to ask as a kid.
在我们的谈话中，我发现了很多关于希瑟的事情，这些事情是我小时候从未想过要问的。
He became less mysterious and more like a normal old guy.
他变得不再那么神秘，更像一个正常的老家伙了。
He fought in World War II and the Korean War.
他参加过第二次世界大战和朝鲜战争。
When he got out, he got a job with the government on a military base.
当他出狱后，他在政府的一个军事基地找到了一份工作。
He's retired now.
他现在已经退休了。
He still likes to hunt and fish.
他仍然喜欢打猎和钓鱼。
He says the number of calls he gets fluctuates.
他说他接到的电话数量有所波动。
But during peak times it's like 100 a day.
但高峰时期一天大概100个。
He says he never asks for anyone's last name or phone number.
他说他从不询问任何人的姓氏或电话号码。
He doesn't accept collect calls, doesn't call people back.
他不接对方付费电话，也不给别人回电话。
He does have caller ID.
他确实有来电显示。
He does not have call waiting.
他没有呼叫等待。
Over the years, he says he has talked to thousands and thousands of people.
他说，多年来他已经与成千上万的人交谈过。
Most just call him Heather.
大多数人只是叫他希瑟。
What most people do when they call, they say, is Heather home?
大多数人打电话时都会说，希瑟在家吗？
And sometimes they hang up, because they expect a woman's voice.
有时他们会挂断电话，因为他们期待的是女人的声音。
You know, I was just thinking that it's improbable, in a way, that these many people called you.
你知道，我只是想，从某种程度上来说，这么多人给你打电话是不可能的。
I mean, Heather, you said thousands and thousands.
我的意思是，希瑟，你说成千上万。
That's incredible.
这太不可思议了。
But I think, to me, it's even more crazy that you talk to them, that you decided that you should respond to all these calls.
但我认为，对我来说，更疯狂的是你与他们交谈，你决定你应该回应所有这些电话。
Well, since my wife died I've just been by myself here.
嗯，自从我妻子去世后，我就一个人待在这里。
And it helps pass the time.
它有助于打发时间。
And a lot of them are nice to talk to.
他们中的很多人都很乐意交谈。
Like I say, a lot of them are latch key kids.
就像我说的，他们中的很多人都是锁钥匙的孩子。
They come home, and nobody's home.
他们回家了，却没人在家。
Both the father and mother are working.
父亲和母亲都在工作。
And they don't have anybody to talk to.
而且他们没有人可以交谈。
So they call up and talk to me.
所以他们打电话来跟我说话。
With the people who call you who are older, do they usually want to talk about something different than the teenagers?
对于年纪较大的人来说，他们通常想谈论与青少年不同的事情吗？
I don't get too many of what you call older people.
我不太了解你们所说的老年人。
I don't get anybody my age.
我没有得到任何与我同龄的人。
And I don't know how old I sound on the phone.
我不知道我在电话里听起来有多大。
I don't think I sound anywhere near as what my age actually is.
我认为我听起来与我的实际年龄相差甚远。
Can I ask what your age is?
我可以问一下你的年龄吗？
Heather It's three quarters of a century plus one.
希瑟 现在已经四分之三加一个世纪了。
That's amazing.
太棒了。
Heather You'd be surprised how many people don't even know what a century is or what three quarters of it is if they did know it.
希瑟：你会感到惊讶的是，有多少人甚至不知道什么是一个世纪，或者如果他们知道的话，也不知道它的四分之三是多少。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
So you wonder how much schooling some of these people got.
所以你想知道其中一些人受过多少教育。
Heather, we were talking yesterday about how you said you thought maybe there were like a dozen people who had called you contemplating suicide.
希瑟，我们昨天讨论过你说你认为可能有十几个人打电话给你考虑自杀。
And you said you were able to talk them down, talk them out of it.
你说你能够说服他们，说服他们放弃这件事。
Well, they were just full of tears, and sobbing, and stuff like that.
嗯，他们只是充满了泪水、抽泣之类的。
And they just blurted it right out when I answered the phone.
当我接电话时他们就脱口而出。
They just said, I'm going to kill myself.
他们只是说，我要自杀。
I tried my best to calm them down and just say, hey, the good Lord put you on this Earth for some reason.
我尽力让他们平静下来，只是说，嘿，仁慈的上帝出于某种原因把你放在这个地球上。
Don't kill yourself, because you might be planned down the road for something great.
不要自杀，因为你可能会被计划去做一些伟大的事情。
That's about it, I guess.
我想就是这样。
Some of them called me back three or four days later, and said, boy, I'm sure glad I talked to you.
三四天后，他们中的一些人给我回电话，说，孩子，我很高兴能和你说话。
And things are good.
一切都很好。
So that makes the day.
这就是今天。
The ones that never called back, I never know if they really did it or didn't do it.
那些从不回电的人，我永远不知道他们是否真的做了或没有做。
Heather, do you have kids?
希瑟，你有孩子吗？
Heather No, we weren't that fortunate.
希瑟 不，我们没那么幸运。
Do you know what percentage of the people who call you are girls and boys?
你知道给你打电话的人中女孩和男孩的比例是多少吗？
No. I would say it's close to about the same.
不，我想说，这几乎是一样的。
If they're at a big party or something like that, there are boys and girls together.
如果他们参加一个大型聚会或类似的活动，就会有男孩和女孩在一起。
And they seem like they all want to talk and say hello.
他们似乎都想说话并打个招呼。
You know what some kids do nowadays?
你知道现在有些孩子在做什么吗？
And I know they're real young.
我知道他们真的很年轻。
They'll call up and say, oh, I feel terrible today.
他们会打电话说，哦，我今天感觉很糟糕。
Would you do me a favor?
你能帮我一个忙吗？
Would you sing me a song?
你能给我唱首歌吗？
Really?
真的吗？
Heather Yeah, so I sing a song to them.
希瑟 是的，所以我给他们唱首歌。
Well, let's see.
好吧，让我们看看。
[SINGING] Let me call you sweetheart.
[唱歌] 让我叫你亲爱的。
I'm in love with you.
我爱上你了。
Let me hear you whisper that you love me too.
让我听到你低声说你也爱我。
Let that love light glowing in your eyes so true, please let me call you sweetheart.
让那爱的光芒在你的眼里闪烁得那么真实，请让我叫你甜心。
I am in love with you.
我爱上你了。
Oh, Heather.
哦，希瑟。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Heather You know, I never thought I could really sing.
希瑟 你知道，我从来没想过我真的会唱歌。
So I'm glad I'm able to sing some anyway.
所以我很高兴无论如何我都能唱一些歌。
Heather, I want to ask a question.
希瑟，我想问一个问题。
What do your friends think about-- do they know about this?
你的朋友们怎么想——他们知道这件事吗？
Do they know about people calling you?
他们知道有人打电话给你吗？
Do you talk about it?
你谈论它吗？
No, I don't advertise it.
不，我不做广告。
I figure if people want to call me, fine.
我想如果人们想给我打电话，没问题。
But I don't advertise it.
但我不做广告。
I don't tell them nothing.
我什么也不告诉他们。
So your friends don't know.
所以你的朋友不知道。
Have they ever been over and wondered why the phone was ringing so much?
他们有没有想过为什么电话铃声这么大？
Yes.
是的。
But I just tell them, that's nobody special.
但我只是告诉他们，那没什么特别的。
So it's a secret.
所以这是一个秘密。
Heather Well, it's my secret.
希瑟：好吧，这是我的秘密。
Why is that?
这是为什么？
Heather Well, I guess maybe pride.
希瑟 好吧，我想也许是骄傲。
Some people are smart, They just want to laugh at you or something like that.
有些人很聪明，他们只是想嘲笑你或类似的事情。
They might say why bother or something like that.
他们可能会说何必麻烦之类的。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I'm not going to tell them, so I'm not going to worry about that.
我不会告诉他们，所以我不会担心这一点。
It's none of their business.
这不关他们的事。
What do you look like?
你长的怎样？
Heather I'm about five seven.
希瑟 我大约五点七分。
I weigh around 170.
我体重170左右。
I have got snow white wavy hair.
我有一头雪白的卷发。
I've still got it all.
我仍然拥有一切。
And I still got all my teeth, but I've got a few crowns.
我的牙齿仍然完好无损，但我已经有了一些王冠。
I used to play a lot of sports, so I still look kind of muscular.
我以前参加过很多运动，所以我看起来还是肌肉发达。
I don't have anything hanging over my belt.
我的腰带上没有挂任何东西。
How many people ask you that question, I wonder.
我想知道有多少人问你这个问题。
Just the girls, huh?
就只有女孩子吧？
Heather Yeah.
希瑟 是的。
Sometimes I ask them what they look like and stuff like that.
有时我会问他们长什么样之类的。
And I say, gosh, you remind me of my wife.
我说，天哪，你让我想起了我的妻子。
Same dimensions, same figure, same hair, and brown eyes.
相同的尺寸，相同的身材，相同的头发，棕色的眼睛。
It's just conversation.
这只是谈话。
It was comments like this that made me wonder if there was some other thing going on with Heather.
正是这样的评论让我怀疑希瑟是否还有其他事情发生。
On the one hand, they could be perfectly innocent.
一方面，他们可能是完全无辜的。
On the other, they made my heart sink a little.
另一方面，他们又让我的心沉了下去。
I mean after all, an older man who spends a lot of his free time talking to kids he's never met on the phone and keeps it all a secret?
我的意思是，毕竟，一个老人花了很多空闲时间与他从未见过的孩子们打电话并保守秘密？
Kirsten always wondered too.
克尔斯滕也总是想知道。
You know, the guys that would call him and make lewd comments or whatever, he would still stay on the line for that.
你知道，那些打电话给他并发表下流评论或其他什么的人，他仍然会保持在线状态。
And that makes me think, is that one of his interests too?
这让我想，这也是他的兴趣之一吗？
Like that weird sexual underworld, is he a part of that and just being my therapist on the side?
就像那个奇怪的性黑社会一样，他是其中的一部分，只是作为我的治疗师在一旁吗？
How does it work?
它是如何运作的？
Are most of his calls like dirty talk.
他的大部分电话都是脏话吗？
Or is it all people like me who are just like, I've got to talk to somebody?
或者是所有像我这样的人都想，我必须和某人谈谈吗？
So do you feel like creepiness comes with the territory with Heather, or creepiness begets the territory?
那么你觉得希瑟的领域是令人毛骨悚然还是令人毛骨悚然？
In other words, the creepiness is just there and you have to deal with it, or the creepiness is sort of part of what attracted us to it.
换句话说，令人毛骨悚然的感觉就在那里，你必须处理它，否则令人毛骨悚然的感觉就是吸引我们的原因之一。
And it was a necessary part of Heather.
这是希瑟不可或缺的一部分。
Well, yeah.
嗯，是的。
It's not like we were calling teen hot lines or anything.
这不像我们拨打青少年热线或其他什么。
We wanted to talk to the guy who nobody was sure about, that the government hadn't inspected and given a patent to.
我们想和这个没有人确定的人交谈，政府没有检查并授予专利。
I called Heather back to ask him, basically, if he was a perv.
我给希瑟回了电话，主要是问他是否是个变态。
And it just sucked.
这很糟糕。
I creeped him out.
我把他吓坏了。
I creeped myself out.
我自己都吓出来了。
We both felt bad.
我们俩都感觉很糟糕。
And we got off the phone.
然后我们就挂断了电话。
And in the end, I still don't know the truth is.
而到最后，我还是不知道真相是什么。
I believe my original feeling about him.
我相信我对他最初的感觉。
He offered us something that's not generally available to teenagers.
他为我们提供了青少年通常无法获得的东西。
Either we had authority figures talking down to us or our peers judging us.
要么是权威人士居高临下地对我们说话，要么是我们的同事在评判我们。
There were no boundaries with Heather, and that was the scary but liberating thing about him.
希瑟没有界限，这就是他令人恐惧但又解放的地方。
There's a reason he became the person everyone first called to screw with and then called back for catharsis.
他成为每个人首先打电话来搞砸然后又打电话来宣泄的人是有原因的。
I mean, he could be anyone.
我的意思是，他可以是任何人。
Oh, I also wanted to ask you, Heather, if you could describe the room that you're standing in.
哦，我还想问你，希瑟，你能否描述一下你所站的房间。
It almost looks like a room in a cabin up north.
它看起来几乎就像北方小屋中的一个房间。
I'm kind of laying down.
我有点躺着了
And right in front of me is the coffee table.
我面前就是咖啡桌。
And the TV is on the other side of the room.
电视在房间的另一边。
Do you like that show?
你喜欢那个节目吗？
Heather It's kind of good.
希瑟 这有点好。
I don't like Ross.
我不喜欢罗斯。
He is the one that is supposed to have the most education.
他应该是受过最多教育的人。
But he's the dumbest one of the group, in my opinion.
但在我看来，他是这群人中最愚蠢的一个。
You're sitting on the train.
你坐在火车上。
And you see an old man sitting across from you.
你看到一个老人坐在你对面。
Or you're in the doctor's office, or at the car wash, or wherever you are.
或者你在医生的办公室，或者在洗车场，或者无论你在哪里。
Heather could be anywhere.
希瑟可能在任何地方。
He could have one of those strange phones where you can get the area code hooked up to whatever-- on a cell phone.
他可能有一部奇怪的电话，你可以在手机上将区号连接到任何东西上。
And he's travelling the Earth trying to solve people's problems.
他环游地球试图解决人们的问题。
Heather.
希瑟。
Yeah, he could be anywhere.
是的，他可以在任何地方。
It's nice to know that he's still out there.
很高兴知道他还在外面。
That story by Jessica Riddle.
杰西卡·里德尔的故事。
Coming up, it take a nation of mommies to hold us back.
接下来，需要全国妈妈们来阻止我们。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International when our program continues.
一分钟后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose some theme and bring you a variety of different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，每周我们的节目都会选择一些主题，并为您带来有关该主题的各种不同类型的故事。
Today's program, Time to Save the World, stories of people saving the world one person at a time, of people being hit with sudden moments of truth, thanks to complete strangers.
今天的节目《拯救世界的时刻》讲述了人们一次一个人拯救世界的故事，以及人们因完全陌生的人而突然面临真相时刻的故事。
We've arrived at act three of our program.
我们已经进入了计划的第三幕。
Act Three, Fools Rush in Where Mommies Fear to Tread.
第三幕，傻瓜冲进妈妈不敢涉足的地方。
The person who tells this next story of human kindness asked that we not use his name on the radio.
讲述下一个人类善良故事的人要求我们不要在广播中使用他的名字。
He is just not sure what to think about the story still.
他只是不确定该如何看待这个故事。
I can say that he is an art history professor.
我可以说他是一位艺术史教授。
He was once in the Marine Corps.
他曾经在海军陆战队服役。
But that was long, long ago.
但那是很久很久以前的事了。
My mother and I were in sort of rush hour traffic.
我和妈妈正处于交通高峰期。
We were going downtown for lunch.
我们要去市中心吃午餐。
She's driving actually.
她确实在开车。
And we're having a great time, joking, talking about old movies, as we do, or about the family or something.
我们玩得很开心，开玩笑，像我们一样谈论老电影，或者家庭什么的。
Just really sweet, really fun.
真的很甜蜜，很有趣。
And it was downtown traffic.
这是市中心的交通。
And it was also a construction scene.
这也是一个建筑场景。
So the cars were just creeping along.
所以汽车只是缓慢地行驶。
And all of a sudden, a guy in a pickup truck came around us.
突然，一个开着皮卡车的人来到我们周围。
I suspect now that my mother may not have let him merge or something.
我现在怀疑我妈妈可能没有让他合并什么的。
But it was all in slow motion.
但这一切都是慢动作。
It was one, two, three miles an hour.
每小时一、二、三英里。
So in frustration then, he drove around us, and paused, and bellowed out of the driver's side window at my mother, and called her a really, really, ugly name.
于是，他沮丧地开着车绕过我们，然后停下来，从驾驶座的车窗里对我母亲吼叫，用一个非常非常难听的名字骂她。
In fact, it was a word that I was hoping my mother didn't even know.
事实上，我希望我妈妈也不知道这个词。
The C word.
C字。
The one syllable C word or three syllable C word?
一音节C词还是三音节C词？
No, one syllable C word.
不，单音节C词。
And F-ing C word, in fact.
事实上，F-ing C 字。
So now we're going to pretend, did we hear this?
现在我们要假装，我们听到了吗？
In conversation, are we going to pause to talk about this?
在谈话中，我们要停下来谈谈这个吗？
And so the conversation falls silent.
于是谈话就陷入了沉默。
I guess we say, well, yeah, Martin Balsam was really good in that movie.
我想我们会说，嗯，是的，马丁·鲍尔萨姆在那部电影中表现得非常好。
OK, now long pause.
好的，现在长时间停顿。
But I can feel my blood boiling at that point.
但那一刻我能感觉到我的血液在沸腾。
I think I'm going to confront this guy, a guy screaming a few feet away from my mother's face.
我想我要面对这个家伙，一个在离我母亲脸几英尺远的地方尖叫的家伙。
I can't let this go unchallenged.
我不能让这件事不受到挑战。
And so I start to get out of the car.
于是我开始下车。
And what are you thinking at this point?
此时你在想什么？
Are you somebody who gets in a lot of fights?
你是一个经常打架的人吗？
Oh God, no. In fact, I had never been in a fight.
天哪，不。事实上，我从来没有打架过。
I guess I'm hoping for an apology, maybe.
我想我也许希望得到道歉。
So I get out of the car.
于是我下了车。
And I walk up a few car lengths.
我走了几辆车的距离。
And this guy is already out of his truck.
这家伙已经从卡车里出来了。
He's already standing there.
他已经站在那里了。
And to tell you the truth, that surprised me a little bit.
说实话，这让我有点惊讶。
That kind of gave me pause, because he's a big guy.
这让我停了下来，因为他是个大个子。
He's easily maybe 75 pounds heavier than me.
他很容易比我重 75 磅。
So I was just afraid.
所以我只是害怕。
I was afraid.
我很害怕。
So he says, man, you better get back in your car.
所以他说，伙计，你最好回到你的车里。
And I march up to him.
我向他走去。
And I say, what did you call my mother?
我说，你叫我妈妈什么？
You called my mother an F-ing C word?
你骂我妈妈是个F-ing C字眼？
And this is the point-- he must not have seen the same movies that I have seen, because at this point, he actually shoves me backwards.
这就是重点——他一定没有看过我看过的同一部电影，因为在这一点上，他实际上把我往后推了。
So I figure, well, he put his hands on me.
所以我想，好吧，他把手放在了我身上。
And I haul off.
然后我就离开了。
And since I'm off balance, I throw this huge left.
由于我失去了平衡，所以我向左扔了这个巨大的东西。
And oh my God.
天哪。
It's like he didn't even know it was coming or something.
就好像他根本不知道它会来什么的。
I hit him so hard, unbelievably hard.
我打他太重了，重得令人难以置信。
And I'm thinking to myself, please fall down.
我心里想，请倒下吧。
Please faint.
请晕。
Please let this be over.
请让这一切结束吧。
But no, it isn't over, In fact, he staggers towards me.
但不，事情还没有结束，事实上，他摇摇晃晃地向我走来。
And I see that I've hurt him.
我发现我伤害了他。
But he's coming.
但他来了。
Now it's going to turn into a wrestling match, which it does.
现在它将变成一场摔跤比赛，事实也确实如此。
And so he's got me in this bear hug.
所以他给了我一个熊抱。
And now we're falling across the tops of cars, other cars in traffic.
现在我们正从车顶上掉下来，从交通中的其他汽车上掉下来。
And in fact, we break an aerial off, break a couple aerials off of cars.
事实上，我们拆掉了一个天线，拆掉了汽车上的几个天线。
And I'm doing everything I can to just keep out from under him, because he's an enormous guy.
我正在尽我所能来阻止他，因为他是一个巨大的家伙。
And it seems like it went on for eternity.
这似乎持续了永恒。
Really Hollywood.
真的是好莱坞。
It was really something.
这确实是一件事情。
I noticed people are standing now outside of their cars.
我注意到人们现在站在车外。
It is a big show.
这是一场盛大的演出。
It's high school now, at this point.
此时此刻，已经是高中生了。
And are you thinking, at this point, what am I doing?
此时你是否在想，我在做什么？
Actually, I had just gotten my PhD the year before.
事实上，我前年刚刚获得博士学位。
And I'm hoping to God my professors aren't watching or, God forbid, anybody that knows me.
我向上帝祈祷，希望我的教授们没有在看，或者，上帝保佑，任何认识我的人都没有在看我。
And here I am in it.
而我就在其中。
I'm wallowing around in it.
我正沉迷其中。
In fact, I am trying to keep this guy off of me.
事实上，我正在努力让这个人远离我。
And so we're wrestling around on the ground.
于是我们就在地上摔跤了。
There are people standing all over the place.
到处都站着人。
And I feel a little tug on my shirt, on my shoulder, OK, break it up.
我感觉我的衬衫、肩膀上有一点拉扯，好吧，把它分开。
It's all over in this little voice.
一切都在这小小的声音中结束了。
And I think, oh thank Christ.
我想，哦，感谢基督。
It's the police.
这是警察。
And I look, and oh my God, it was this guy's mother breaking up the fight.
我一看，天哪，是这家伙的母亲制止了打斗。
And she was a little, kind of leathery, sweet-- Granny Clampett, basically, is breaking up this fight.
她有点坚韧、可爱——基本上，克拉佩特奶奶正在结束这场争斗。
I remember she was so sweet.
我记得她很可爱。
You know, honey, it's over.
你知道，亲爱的，一切都结束了。
Get up, get up.
起来吧，起来吧。
Come on.
快点。
It's all over now, she said.
现在一切都结束了，她说。
And so I get off.
然后我就下车了。
And then I kind of shake myself up.
然后我就振作起来。
I kind of jump back.
我有点跳回来。
And God, afterwards my clothing was in tatters, just in tatters, and blood.
天啊，后来我的衣服就破烂不堪，只剩下破烂，还有血。
And his mother helps him back to the truck.
他的母亲扶他回到卡车上。
And they get in.
他们进去了。
And I get back in my mother's car.
然后我就坐上了妈妈的车。
And it was like nothing had happened.
而且就好像什么都没发生过一样。
The traffic just resumed.
交通刚刚恢复。
And we kind of drove away.
然后我们就开车走了。
We drove-- I guess we were going out to lunch at this point.
我们开车——我想我们此时正要去吃午饭。
Now we're just driving, in those first few blocks, just away.
现在我们只是开车，在最初的几个街区，就在远处。
We're just trying to drive away.
我们只是想开车离开。
And my mother pulls the car over.
我妈妈把车停在路边。
And I am trembling.
我在颤抖。
And we didn't know what to say to one another.
我们不知道该对彼此说什么。
And I said, well, sorry about all that, Ma.
我说，嗯，很抱歉，妈妈。
And there's a long pause.
然后是一个很长的停顿。
And she threw her arms around my neck.
她用双臂搂住我的脖子。
And she said, nobody has ever done that for me.
她说，从来没有人为我这样做过。
And I said, really?
我说，真的吗？
Dad never did that for you?
爸爸从来没有为你做过这样的事吗？
And she goes, well, honey, we never were in a situation like that.
她说，好吧，亲爱的，我们从来没有遇到过这样的情况。
And I said, well, you're welcome.
我说，好吧，不客气。
You're welcome.
不客气。
She actually passed away a few months ago.
她实际上几个月前去世了。
And I really miss her terribly.
我真的非常想念她。
In the last few years, every once in a while she'll tell the story or somebody in the family wants to hear the story.
在过去的几年里，她偶尔会讲这个故事，或者家里有人想听这个故事。
And she was really proud.
她真的很自豪。
And she wasn't the kind of person that approves of that kind of thing.
而她也不是那种会赞同这种事情的人。
In fact, one time I heard her tell a girlfriend, she goes, you should have seen my son.
事实上，有一次我听到她告诉一位女朋友，她说，你应该看看我的儿子。
He looked like he didn't have a chance, the way he was dressed-- and I guess I dress kind of like a preppy, pretty clean cut-- and boy, he let this guy have it.
他看起来好像没有机会，就他的穿着方式来说——我想我穿得有点像预科生，剪裁相当干净——天哪，他让这个家伙得逞了。
So she got a big kick out of the whole thing.
所以她对整件事感到非常高兴。
It's so crazy to think about what experiences you have that will be the memories that stick with somebody as their most precious memories.
想想你所经历的哪些经历将成为某人最珍贵的回忆，真是太疯狂了。
For your mom, this is one of her most precious memories?
对于你妈妈来说，这是她最珍贵的回忆之一？
Isn't that the truth?
这不是事实吗？
Isn't that the truth?
这不是事实吗？
And for me, I don't know quite how to think about it.
对于我来说，我不太知道如何思考它。
I know that my wife doesn't let me tell the story at dinner parties and things.
我知道我的妻子不让我在晚宴上讲这个故事。
She's embarrassed by it.
她为此感到尴尬。
And I guess I'm embarrassed by it too.
我想我也为此感到尴尬。
In fact, I struggle with whether or not I want my son to know this story.
事实上，我很纠结是否要让我的儿子知道这个故事。
I never know if I should tell this story.
我永远不知道我是否应该讲这个故事。
I don't know if it's so flattering.
不知道是不是这么讨人喜欢。
I wonder if you're embarrassed because you're secretly proud.
我不知道你是否因为暗自骄傲而感到尴尬。
Yeah, maybe.
是的，也许吧。
Maybe.
或许。
I guess I do feel that way.
我想我确实有这样的感觉。
I am proud.
我很自豪。
And hell yeah.
是的。
Oh yeah.
哦，是的。
Maybe so.
也许是这样。
You got him?
你抓到他了吗？
Art History Professor Yeah, I got him now man.
艺术史教授 是的，我现在找到了他，伙计。
My little gift to Mom.
我给妈妈的小礼物。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
[BEEP] That's right.
[嘟嘟] 没错。
It was the perfect fight.
这是一场完美的战斗。
I felt blessed.
我感到很幸福。
Once in your life you have an opportunity like this.
在你的一生中，你有一次这样的机会。
How often do you get something-- he was so clearly right wrong, black white, good bad.
你有多少次得到一些东西——他是如此明显地对错，黑白，好坏。
I mean, because you call somebody's mother a name and then push somebody around, boys, you are asking for it, or so it seemed to me.
我的意思是，因为你骂某人的母亲，然后对某人指手画脚，孩子们，你是自找的，至少在我看来是这样。
And I didn't get hurt too badly.
而且我并没有受太重的伤。
Act Four, The Science of Good and Evil.
第四幕，善恶的科学。
And now a test that provides sudden truth from a stranger, based on a science whose goals could not be grander, to aid in the fight between good and evil.
现在，一项测试突然从一个陌生人那里提供了真相，其基础是一门目标无比宏伟的科学，以帮助正义与邪恶之间的斗争。
Given that, I have to say it is a surprisingly effective test.
鉴于此，我不得不说这是一个令人惊讶的有效测试。
Invented by a guy named Robert Hartman, who was nominated for the Nobel Prize for his work back in the '70s.
由一位名叫罗伯特·哈特曼 (Robert Hartman) 的人发明，他在 70 年代因其工作而获得诺贝尔奖提名。
Susan Drury reports from Tennessee.
苏珊·德鲁里从田纳西州报道。
Robert Hartman was born in Germany in 1910.
罗伯特·哈特曼 1910 年出生于德国。
By his early twenties, he was active in opposing Adolf Hitler.
二十岁出头时，他积极反对阿道夫·希特勒。
This is his son, Jan Hartman.
这是他的儿子扬·哈特曼。
He went as a young man to a demonstration in which Hitler was parading, with his brown shirts and what have you.
他年轻时参加了一次示威活动，希特勒穿着棕色衬衫和其他什么东西在游行中游行。
And he was completely horrified.
他完全被吓坏了。
Actually, he would never go to large demos after that.
事实上，此后他再也不会去参加大型演示了。
I mean here were these thousands and thousands and thousands of people cheering Hitler, whom he knew was evil.
我的意思是，这里有成千上万的人为希特勒欢呼，他知道希特勒是邪恶的。
So he decided somehow to answer the question, if evil can be organized so effectively, why can't good be organized in the same way, with the same efficiency?
所以他决定以某种方式回答这个问题，如果邪恶可以如此有效地组织起来，为什么善不能以同样的方式、同样的效率来组织呢？
When Hartman was 23, the Nazis showed up at his door to take him away because he was a leader of an opposition party.
哈特曼 23 岁时，纳粹分子出现在他家门口将他带走，因为他是反对党领导人。
He escaped through the back door.
他从后门逃走了。
And with the help of a fake passport, he fled to America, where he became a philosopher and started working out an answer to the question that would consume him for the next four decades.
在假护照的帮助下，他逃到了美国，在那里他成为了一名哲学家，并开始寻找这个问题的答案，这个问题在接下来的四十年里困扰着他。
How do we mobilize the good of the world?
我们如何动员世界的福祉？
Hartman went about this using methods that scientists today would never use.
哈特曼使用了当今科学家永远不会使用的方法来解决这个问题。
He tried to mathematically quantify good and evil.
他试图用数学方法量化善与恶。
If that seems strange, remember that, for Hartman, Freud, and Marx, and Einstein were still new figures on the scene, each one using scientific analysis to understand things science had never really considered before.
如果这看起来很奇怪，请记住，哈特曼、弗洛伊德、马克思和爱因斯坦仍然是舞台上的新人物，他们每个人都使用科学分析来理解科学以前从未真正考虑过的事物。
So Hartman mapped out the kinds of small and large value judgments we make all the time.
因此，哈特曼列出了我们一直在做出的大大小小的价值判断。
And he invented a test.
他发明了一种测试。
From the very first minute that I saw the results, it was like, oh my God.
从我看到结果的第一分钟起，我就感觉，天哪。
This is scary.
这太可怕了。
This knows things I wouldn't tell anybody.
这知道我不会告诉任何人的事情。
Harvey [?
哈维[?
Shauf ?] is someone who administered all sorts of personality tests as part of his job, the Myers-Briggs, the DiSC, all the others.
Shauf ？] 是一个在工作中进行各种性格测试的人，包括 Myers-Briggs、DiSC 以及所有其他测试。
He first took this test 15 years ago.
15 年前，他第一次参加了这项测试。
It was just something that was so unique, and so different, and so far beyond anything I had ever seen before that it was the tool I had always felt was missing, and the one I always felt I would like to find someday.
它是如此独特、如此不同，远远超出了我以前见过的任何东西，它是我一直觉得缺失的工具，也是我一直觉得有一天我想要找到的工具。
Perhaps as many as 100 people in the US now administer the test.
美国现在可能有多达 100 人进行这项测试。
And they all seem to talk about it this way, like converts.
他们似乎都以这种方式谈论这件事，就像皈依者一样。
It was incredible.
这太不可思议了。
I have no way to explain it to you, but my jaw just kept dropping, and dropping, and dropping.
我无法向你解释，但我的下巴一直掉下来，掉下来，掉下来。
It's literally like someone lifted something off of you.
这实际上就像有人从你身上拿走了一些东西。
You walk out feeling like, OK, thank God I know that now.
你走出去的感觉是，好吧，感谢上帝，我现在知道了。
It was more of a spiritual experience for me than anything I had ever experienced before.
对我来说，这比我以前经历过的任何事情都更像是一种精神体验。
I mean it's just like the whole world opened up, and there was nothing but light.
我的意思是，就像整个世界都打开了，除了光什么也没有。
And at that point, my life changed forever.
在那一刻，我的生活永远改变了。
The test is called the Hartman Value Profile, and it is astonishingly simple.
该测试称为哈特曼价值概况，而且非常简单。
There are no actual questions.
没有实际的问题。
It's just two lists of 18 objects and phrases that you rank in order from most valuable to least valuable.
它只是两个包含 18 个对象和短语的列表，按从最有价值到最不有价值的顺序排列。
Some of the items on the first list, a baby, a uniform, a madman, a mathematical genius, love of nature, a rubbish heap, with this ring I thee wed, blow up an airliner in flight.
第一份清单上的一些物品，一个婴儿，一套制服，一个疯子，一个数学天才，对自然的热爱，一个垃圾堆，用这枚戒指我与你结婚，炸毁了飞行中的客机。
Some of the choices seem impossible.
有些选择似乎是不可能的。
Which is worse, burning a heretic at the stake, or torturing a person in a concentration camp, or slavery?
哪个更糟糕，把一个异端分子烧死在火刑柱上，或者在集中营里折磨一个人，或者奴隶制？
The second list of 18 items concerns work and happiness.
第二个清单共 18 项，涉及工作和幸福。
There are sentences like, I curse the day I was born, and my work contributes nothing to the world.
有这样的句子，我诅咒我出生的那一天，我的工作对世界没有任何贡献。
Again, you are supposed to rank them from most to least valuable.
同样，您应该将它们从最有价值到最不有价值进行排名。
The notion of a test invented to distinguish good from evil seemed so incredible that when I heard it existed I had to take it.
为区分善恶而发明的测试的概念似乎令人难以置信，以至于当我听说它存在时，我不得不接受它。
And so I called up a company.
于是我给一家公司打了电话。
They send me a test, and tell me to do it quickly.
他们给我发了一份测试，并告诉我尽快做。
Don't think too much, they say.
他们说，别想太多。
Just do it.
去做就对了。
It takes me 10 minutes.
我需要 10 分钟。
And really, it feels like a very strange parlor game, like a horoscope or a test in a magazine, something slightly interesting but immediately forgotten, nothing profound.
确实，这感觉就像一个非常奇怪的室内游戏，就像占星术或杂志上的测试，有点有趣但立即被遗忘，没有什么深刻的。
I send it back, and arrange a time to get my results.
我将其寄回，并安排时间获取结果。
About a week later, I sit down with a guy named Wayne Carpenter.
大约一周后，我和一个名叫韦恩·卡彭特的人坐下来。
Wayne studied with Hartman in the '60s.
韦恩在 60 年代跟随哈特曼学习。
He wears a cowboy hat over his long gray hair.
他的灰色长发上戴着一顶牛仔帽。
He has a pile of papers with him, reports on me it turns out.
事实证明，他随身带着一堆文件，都是关于我的报告。
But he doesn't look at them.
但他没有看他们。
The second he sits down, he just starts talking.
他一坐下来，就开始说话。
In your profile, the first thing that I look at is the fact that you are a very, very keenly perceptive person.
在你的个人资料中，我首先看到的是你是一个洞察力非常非常敏锐的人。
In other words, you are aware of everything going on around you.
换句话说，你知道周围发生的一切。
You have an outstanding capacity to understand people.
你具有杰出的理解他人的能力。
90% of the time, you size up what a crucial issue is.
90% 的情况下，你会判断出什么是关键问题。
You may not express it, but you're right.
你可能没有表达出来，但你是对的。
There is just nothing like having a stranger tell you that it's a scientific fact that you are right 90% of the time.
没有什么比让一个陌生人告诉你，这是一个科学事实，你 90% 的时间都是对的。
Wayne tells me lots of other good things about myself.
韦恩告诉我很多关于我自己的其他好事情。
Even the negative things he spins to me in a really nice way.
即使是负面的事情，他也会以非常好的方式向我讲述。
For instance, apparently the test scientifically proves I'm a bossy know it all.
例如，显然，测试科学地证明我是一个无所不知的专横者。
But Wayne expresses that like this.
但韦恩是这样表达的。
When you see things that need to be done better, you like to give advice and tell people how to do it better.
当您看到需要做得更好的事情时，您喜欢提供建议并告诉人们如何做得更好。
And you don't think about it as something that you are doing in order to create stress for them.
而且你不会认为你所做的事情是为了给他们制造压力。
But it can create stress.
但它会产生压力。
I already know most of these things about myself.
我已经了解了关于我自己的大部分事情。
But it was different coming from Wayne.
但韦恩的话就不一样了。
The good things felt so official, like I could do anything, really.
美好的事情感觉如此正式，就像我可以做任何事情，真的。
And the bad things seemed like such discreet little clumps of bad things in easy to understand categories.
坏事似乎是由易于理解的类别组成的谨慎的小团块。
They're not soaking through your whole personality.
它们并没有渗透你的整个个性。
It was all fine, except for one thing Wayne said to me about my need to tell people what to do.
一切都很好，除了韦恩对我说的一件事，即我需要告诉人们该做什么。
As your child grows, that's something to watch out for, because one of these days she'll bring homework to you.
随着您孩子的成长，这是需要注意的事情，因为有一天她会给您带来作业。
And it will be a B plus.
这将是一个B+。
And you will look at it and see immediately how to make it into an A.
你会看到它并立即知道如何使其成为 A。
And your natural instinct to help her is to say, you know, if you had made that one difference.
你帮助她的本能就是说，你知道，如果你做出了这一点的话。
And you're going to do that.
你会这么做的。
When she brings you that paper, and it's a B plus, the first response you're going to have-- you're going to do that, Susan.
当她给你带来那张试卷时，你的第一反应是——你会这么做，苏珊。
I'm telling you right now.
我现在就告诉你。
You can't escape that, because that is you.
你无法逃避这一点，因为那就是你。
This haunted me.
这困扰着我。
I didn't care about other stuff.
我不关心其他事情。
But what he's describing is the opposite of my idea of a good parent.
但他所描述的与我对好父母的看法相反。
And I want to manage my way out of it.
我想设法摆脱困境。
And he's telling me that's impossible too.
他告诉我这也是不可能的。
I can't fix it.
我无法修复它。
That's who I am.
这就是我。
I'm supposed to greet you all here at 1:15.
我应该在 1 点 15 分在这里向大家致意。
Every fall, Hartman's followers hold a conference at the University of Tennessee to figure out how to spread his ideas more effectively throughout the world.
每年秋天，哈特曼的追随者都会在田纳西大学召开会议，探讨如何在全世界更有效地传播他的思想。
When I hear the word conference, I imagine throngs of people gathered together poring over the latest scientific exhibits and hurrying to make it to the next panel discussion.
当我听到“会议”这个词时，我想象成群结队的人聚集在一起，仔细研究最新的科学展览，并急于参加下一次小组讨论。
But in reality, the conference is just one little classroom.
但实际上，会议只是一间小教室。
There's a box of doughnuts on a folding table.
折叠桌上有一盒甜甜圈。
And half the scheduled lectures, it turns out, have canceled.
事实证明，一半预定的讲座已经取消。
[INTERPOSING VOICES] Man 4 John, what are we supposed to do next here?
[插话] 约翰福音 4 章，接下来我们应该做什么？
On the day I'm there, the big discussion is about how Hartman's followers can convince the University of Tennessee to teach a class on his ideas.
我在那里的那天，最大的讨论是哈特曼的追随者如何说服田纳西大学教授关于他的想法的课程。
This was the last place Hartman taught.
这是哈特曼授课的最后一个地方。
He was by all accounts a dynamic and beloved professor.
众所周知，他是一位充满活力、受人爱戴的教授。
And yet, 30 years after his death he's mostly forgotten even here.
然而，在他去世 30 年后，即使在这里，他也几乎被遗忘了。
[INTERPOSING VOICES] Man 5 Tennessee today, the world tomorrow.
[插话] Man 5 今天是田纳西州，明天是世界。
If Hartman's own students and colleagues can't organize themselves enough to convince his own school to teach his work, how likely is it that his ideas will organize the good of the world?
如果哈特曼自己的学生和同事不能组织起来说服他自己的学校教授他的作品，那么他的想法有多大可能会组织世界的福祉呢？
Back in the late '60s and early '70s, Hartman was actively trying to find practical uses for his test.
早在 60 年代末和 70 年代初，哈特曼就积极尝试为他的测试寻找实际用途。
He sent letters to all the US and European airlines.
他给所有美国和欧洲的航空公司写了信。
He suggested giving the Hartman Value Profile to airline passengers as a way to sort out potential hijackers before they boarded the planes.
他建议向航空公司乘客提供哈特曼价值概况，作为在登机前识别潜在劫机者的一种方式。
He was rejected by them all.
他被他们所有人拒绝了。
In 1970, at the request of President Richard Nixon, Hartman and a colleague, Dr. Arnold Hutschnecker, submitted a proposal to test all American schoolchildren.
1970 年，应理查德·尼克松总统的要求，哈特曼和同事阿诺德·哈茨内克博士提交了一项对所有美国学童进行测试的提案。
Hutschnecker was Nixon's psychiatrist, and had been friends with Hartman for years.
哈茨内克是尼克松的精神科医生，多年来一直是哈特曼的朋友。
The proposal was to use Hartman's test to figure out which children had violent and criminal tendencies.
该提议是利用哈特曼的测试来找出哪些儿童有暴力和犯罪倾向。
Hartman figured about 1 million of them would be identified and placed into 50,000 therapy groups.
哈特曼估计，其中约 100 万人将被识别出来，并被分为 50,000 个治疗组。
Hutschnecker preferred the idea of camps.
哈茨内克更喜欢集中营的想法。
They saw the plan as a way to see trouble before it happened and try to prevent it.
他们认为该计划是在问题发生之前发现问题并试图预防问题的一种方法。
Again, here's Hartman's son, Jan.
这是哈特曼的儿子简。
And when I heard this I kind of went ballistic.
当我听到这个消息时，我有点生气。
I got him on the phone.
我给他打电话了。
My dad lived in Mexico.
我父亲住在墨西哥。
I said, this is really immoral.
我说，这实在是太不道德了。
And you have to stop Hutschnecker from doing this.
你必须阻止哈奇内克这样做。
You can't segregate potential criminals from society just on the sense of one test.
你不能仅凭一项测试就将潜在的犯罪分子与社会隔离。
I said, because that's just what the Nazis would have done.
我说，因为纳粹就会这么做。
If somebody answers the questions in such a way that you say, my God, here's a raving sociopath, but all you have to prove it is a test score, then you have a very moral problem, don't you?
如果有人以这样的方式回答问题，你会说，天哪，这是一个疯狂的反社会者，但你所需要证明的只是一个测试分数，那么你就有一个非常道德的问题，不是吗？
What he didn't understand-- and I give him points for this, because it was a naivete, but it was also great idealism-- is that a tool is also a weapon.
他不明白的是——我为此给他打分，因为这是一种天真，但也是伟大的理想主义——工具也是武器。
The media agreed.
媒体同意了。
"Doctor Pushes Crime Tests for Tots," said the headline in the Washington Post.
《华盛顿邮报》的标题是“医生推动对儿童进行犯罪测试”。
Time referred to it as an Orwellian proposal.
《时代》杂志称其为奥威尔式的提案。
The plan never went through.
该计划从未实施。
Hartman continued to believe that he could use the test to solve these big picture social problems, that the test could serve as a way to good, as a path away from evil.
哈特曼仍然相信，他可以利用测试来解决这些宏观社会问题，测试可以作为通往善行的途径，作为远离邪恶的途径。
But it just didn't work out that way, because people were disturbed by the idea of doctors going around evaluating everyone.
但事实并非如此，因为人们对医生四处评估每个人的想法感到不安。
They were scared that some people would end up labeled good and others wouldn't make the cut.
他们担心有些人最终会被贴上好人的标签，而另一些人则无法晋级。
And what would happen to them?
他们会发生什么？
These days, there is still one arena where Hartman's test gets a lot of use, the workplace.
如今，哈特曼的测试仍然在一个领域得到大量使用，那就是工作场所。
We work with them at Procter & Gamble and at GTE for all the sales managers in all the companies they own, Arthur Anderson--
我们在宝洁公司和 GTE 与他们合作，为他们拥有的所有公司的所有销售经理提供服务，阿瑟·安德森 (Arthur Anderson)——
Consultants like Wayne Carpenter contract with companies to test their workers and help them solve problems based on the results of the Hartman Value Profile.
像韦恩·卡彭特这样的顾问与公司签订合同，对他们的员工进行测试，并根据哈特曼价值概况的结果帮助他们解决问题。
It is the same test, the same logic.
这是相同的测试，相同的逻辑。
But they never talk about good and evil.
但他们从不谈论善恶。
They talk about performance, and work styles, and customer service.
他们谈论绩效、工作方式和客户服务。
Wayne's company has tested about a half a million people.
韦恩的公司已经对大约五十万人进行了测试。
Wayne and Bob Terrell, the guy he runs his testing company with, show me and my producer, Starlee Kine, the letter they send out with the test results.
韦恩和鲍勃·特雷尔（与他一起经营测试公司的人）向我和我的制片人斯塔莉·凯恩展示了他们随测试结果一起发出的信函。
It starts out-- Bob Terrell Congratulations.
它开始于——鲍勃·特雷尔（Bob Terrell），恭喜你。
You are now in possession of your value analysis from Axiometrics International.
您现在已获得 Axiometrics International 的价值分析。
Why congratulations?
为什么要恭喜？
Wayne Carpenter That's just the marketing.
韦恩·卡彭特 这只是营销。
If you think about it, the workplace is kind of a weird place for a test like this.
如果你仔细想想，工作场所对于这样的测试来说是一个奇怪的地方。
Would you want your boss to know exactly the way your mind operates?
您希望您的老板确切地了解您的思维方式吗？
And yet Wayne helped the Nashville Predators pro hockey team figure out who should be the captain.
然而，韦恩帮助纳什维尔掠夺者职业曲棍球队确定了谁应该担任队长。
He helped banks in New York figure out how to bring in new employees from a group of young adults who hadn't made it through high school.
他帮助纽约的银行弄清楚如何从一群高中未读完的年轻人中引进新员工。
He has worked with AT&T, and NASA, and the US Postal Service.
他曾在 AT&T、NASA 和美国邮政局工作。
So here it is.
所以就是这样。
Here was this very high minded idea, this test born out of the idea of a science of morality, which 40 years later has become a placement tool in human resource departments.
这是一个非常高尚的想法，这个测试源于道德科学的理念，40 年后已经成为人力资源部门的安置工具。
And Wayne, though he is devoted to spreading the word about Hartman, is fine with this.
韦恩虽然致力于传播有关哈特曼的信息，但对此并不介意。
I thought, practically, what am I going to do?
我想，实际上，我该怎么办？
I can go out and preach, and people can listen.
我可以出去传道，人们也可以聆听。
But if they only hear you talk about it, it's not the same.
但如果他们只听到你谈论它，那就不一样了。
Is the goal still ultimately that more and more and more goodness is going to add up, and in the long term, big picture way wipe out the bigger evil?
最终的目标是否仍然是越来越多的善意加起来，从长远来看，以大局的方式消灭更大的邪恶？
Is that still the goal?
这仍然是目标吗？
Oh, that is the goal.
哦，这就是目标。
It always has been.
一直如此。
That was the goal for Hartman.
这就是哈特曼的目标。
And that's the goal for me.
这就是我的目标。
He's trying to reach people one at a time, but even then it's not that easy.
他试图一次接触一个人，但即便如此，这也不是那么容易。
Wayne shows Starlee and me the profile of a successful businessman who recently took the test.
韦恩向斯塔利和我展示了一位最近参加测试的成功商人的简介。
The first thing I am going to make aware of is that he's more secure of himself than 90% of the people we profile.
我要意识到的第一件事是，他比我们所介绍的 90% 的人更有安全感。
The second thing I'm going to do is make him aware that that security and that consciousness, in terms of how he translates that back out, can hurt people without his intending to do it.
我要做的第二件事是让他意识到，那种安全感和那种意识，就他如何将其转化回来而言，可能会在他无意的情况下伤害别人。
And he needs to be more conscious of that.
他需要更加意识到这一点。
He can hurt you and it wouldn't bother him.
他可以伤害你，但他不会介意。
Who did you tell me, on television, this person is?
你在电视上告诉我这个人是谁？
Tony Soprano.
托尼·索普拉诺.
Starlee Kine But Tony Soprano is a sociopath.
斯塔莉·凯恩 但托尼·索普拉诺是个反社会者。
Well this is a sociopath.
嗯，这是一个反社会者。
This person is a sociopath.
这个人是一个反社会者。
OK.
好的。
So what do you do with this if you have a sociopath?
那么，如果你有一个反社会人格者，你会怎么做呢？
Knowing this person, I know there's very little I can do other than make them aware of it.
了解这个人后，我知道除了让他们意识到这一点之外我无能为力。
And then they have to make the decision.
然后他们必须做出决定。
But if you make them aware of it, then they have a chance.
但如果你让他们意识到这一点，那么他们就有机会。
And without them being aware of it, they don't have that chance.
如果他们没有意识到这一点，他们就没有这个机会。
He doesn't see it.
他没有看到。
So if he sees it on paper, and he starts to think about it, and he says, yes, that's me, and I don't like that--
所以如果他在纸上看到它，他开始思考它，然后他说，是的，那就是我，我不喜欢那样——
The odds are probably against it.
但可能性可能并不大。
I doubt it.
我对此表示怀疑。
Hartman's son Jan says this is the big problem with his dad's ideas and with this test.
哈特曼的儿子简说，这是他父亲的想法和这项测试的大问题。
Namely, once people understand what they are really like, does that make them change?
也就是说，一旦人们了解了自己的真实面目，他们就会改变吗？
And I can not tell you the number of nights we sat up arguing that point.
我无法告诉你我们为此争论了多少个夜晚。
Our basic argument was that if you can measure things in a way that will reveal to people who and what they are, that the rest will follow.
我们的基本论点是，如果你能够以一种能够向人们揭示他们是谁以及他们是什么的方式来衡量事物，那么其余的事情就会随之而来。
Is it that he thought if people had a system and a way of seeing their own sort of moral limitations or possible failings, they would thus adjust and correct those things?
他是否认为如果人们有一个系统和一种方式来看待自己的道德局限性或可能的失败，他们就会调整和纠正这些事情？
That's the logic.
这就是逻辑。
Susan Drury Right, that's the logic.
苏珊·德鲁里 是的，这就是逻辑。
And I would argue that there's nothing more unpredictable in the world than people, and that logic and order don't really exist in human emotions.
我认为世界上没有什么比人更不可预测的了，而逻辑和秩序并不真正存在于人类情感中。
This is why it's so hard to organize the good in the world one person at a time, because people don't always want to be good, and because when they want it they can't always do it.
这就是为什么一次组织一个人世界上的善事如此困难，因为人们并不总是想做好事，而且当他们想要做好事时，他们并不总是能做到。
Susie Drury lives on a farm in Bon Aqua, Tennessee, where she is carefully monitoring her behavior around her two year old daughter.
苏西·德鲁里 (Susie Drury) 住在田纳西州邦阿夸 (Bon Aqua) 的一个农场里，在那里她仔细观察自己在两岁女儿身边的行为。
Well, our program was produced today by Dave Kestenbaum and myself, with Alex Blumberg, Diane Cook, Wendy Dorr, and Starlee Kine.
好吧，我们今天的节目是由戴夫·凯斯滕鲍姆和我本人以及亚历克斯·布隆伯格、黛安·库克、温迪·多尔和斯塔莉·凯恩共同制作的。
Production help from Todd Bachmann and Jane Golombisky.
托德·巴赫曼 (Todd Bachmann) 和简·戈隆比斯基 (Jane Golombisky) 为制作提供帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
[致谢]《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
Funding for our show comes from the listeners of WBEZ Chicago.
我们的节目的资金来自 WBEZ 芝加哥的听众。
WBEZ management oversight by Torey Malatia, who sometimes calls me up and asks--
WBEZ 的管理由 Torey Malatia 负责监督，他有时会打电话给我并询问——
Would to do me a favor?
愿意帮我一个忙吗？
Would you sing me a song?
你能给我唱首歌吗？
I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life.
我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。