229: Secret Government - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #229 | January 10, 2003 229: Secret Government Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 229 集 | 2003 年 1 月 10 日 229：秘密政府注释：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass John Podesta used to see a lot of classified documents in his old job as White House Chief of Staff under President Clinton.
序言 艾拉·格拉斯 约翰·波德斯塔在担任克林顿总统领导下的白宫办公厅主任期间，经常看到大量机密文件。
You go from the range of, you slap your head and say, holy cow, I can't believe we know this, and you absolutely know why it's classified, all the way down the stream to-- I've seen, literally, newspaper reports classified.
你从范围，你拍拍你的头说，天啊，我不敢相信我们知道这个，你绝对知道为什么它是机密，一直到 - 我已经看到了，字面上的，报纸报道是机密的。
AP wire copy classified.
美联社电报副本已分类。
Wait, wait.
等等，等等。
Literally, the report from the paper?
从字面上看，报纸上的报道？
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, that's then been classified and forwarded on to the president, for example.
是的，例如，然后将其分类并转发给总统。
Even back then, during an administration that declassified 800 million documents, that tried to release any government document possible under the Freedom of Information Act, even back then a lot of stuff that stayed secret just did not really need to be secret.
即使在当时，在解密了 8 亿份文件的政府期间，试图根据《信息自由法》公开任何可能的政府文件，即使在那时，许多保密的内容实际上并不需要保密。
It's just the way government works.
这就是政府的运作方式。
And so, under the current administration, the Bush administration, there's probably also stuff that does not really need to be classified.
因此，在现任政府、布什政府的领导下，可能还有一些实际上不需要保密的东西。
In putting together today's radio program, I've tried to compile a list of all the new things the government is keeping secret.
在整理今天的广播节目时，我试图编制一份政府保密的所有新事物的清单。
And there are so many of them, I do not even know if I've got them all.
而且数量太多了，我什至不知道我是否已经全部拥有了。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
There is the vice president in a lawsuit over whether he has to release the names of people that he met with in forming his energy policy.
副总统正在提起诉讼，要求他是否必须公布他在制定能源政策时会见的人的姓名。
There's the executive order that lets former presidents keep more of their old documents secret.
有一项行政命令允许前总统对更多旧文件保密。
There's the official Bush administration policy not to release any document under the Freedom of Information Act if there is any legal way to avoid it.
布什政府的官方政策是，如果有任何合法途径可以避免的话，根据《信息自由法》，不得发布任何文件。
Committee chairmen in Congress-- these are Republicans, mind you, Republicans-- are complaining publicly that they cannot get information out of the administration, out of the agencies that they are supposed to be overseeing.
国会的委员会主席——请注意，他们是共和党人——公开抱怨他们无法从政府、从他们本应监督的机构获取信息。
And all this stuff is before you get the stuff that has to do with the War on Terror.
所有这些内容都是在您获得与反恐战争有关的内容之前的内容。
Add that, and you've got the federal government pulling information from its own websites and removing its documents from public libraries.
再加上联邦政府从自己的网站上提取信息并从公共图书馆中删除其文件。
There are the secret trials and deportations of suspected terrorists.
对恐怖分子嫌疑人进行秘密审判和驱逐。
To people being held without any charges at all in military brigs, as many as 400 people being held as material witnesses because the government wants to get information out of them.
对于那些在没有任何指控的情况下被关押在军事双桅船里的人来说，多达 400 人被作为重要证人关押，因为政府想从他们那里获取信息。
The new kinds of wiretaps that have been authorized.
已获得授权的新型窃听器。
There is the Total Information Awareness Program, in its pilot stage, which will be able to monitor all of our credit card and bank transactions, our phone calls, our email, our medical records.
全面信息意识计划正处于试点阶段，它将能够监控我们所有的信用卡和银行交易、我们的电话、我们的电子邮件和我们的医疗记录。
The part of government that is secret is growing.
政府的秘密部分正在增加。
And so we thought today we would step back, take a look at exactly how far it's gone.
所以我们认为今天我们应该退后一步，看看它究竟走了多远。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life , distributed by Public Radio International.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
Today on our program, The Secret Government, A Beginner's Guide.
今天我们的节目《秘密政府，初学者指南》。
Our program today in three acts.
我们今天的节目分三幕。
Act One is about disappeared persons, American citizens held without charges.
第一幕是关于失踪者、未经指控而被关押的美国公民。
Act Two is about people thrown out of the country after secret trials.
第二幕讲述的是一些人在秘密审判后被驱逐出境的故事。
Act Three is about a secret court made of conservative judges that got so upset about what the current Justice Department was doing in secret that for the first time in the court's history it broke its veil of secrecy and went public.
第三幕讲述了一个由保守派法官组成的秘密法庭，他们对现任司法部的秘密行动感到非常不安，以至于法庭历史上第一次揭开了秘密的面纱并公开。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, Until the End of the War.
第一幕，直到战争结束。
There are at least two American citizens being held without charges, unable to see lawyers, in military jails in the United States.
至少有两名美国公民在没有受到指控的情况下被关押在美国的军事监狱中，无法会见律师。
There could actually be more.
实际上可能还有更多。
Jack Hitt tried to find out everything he could about one of these guys, who you may remember from the news a while back, Jose Padilla.
杰克·希特（Jack Hitt）试图找出有关其中一个人的一切信息，你可能还记得不久前的新闻，他就是何塞·帕迪拉（Jose Padilla）。
Here's the way most of us remember it, if we remember it at all.
如果我们还记得的话，这就是我们大多数人记住它的方式。
A Monday morning last June, all the major networks broke from their programming to go to a live satellite broadcast by Attorney General John Ashcroft, from Moscow of all places.
去年六月的一个星期一早上，所有主要电视网都中断了节目，转而观看总检察长约翰·阿什克罗夫特从莫斯科各地进行的卫星直播。
Here's CNN.
这里是美国有线电视新闻网。
Ethan, I'm sorry.
伊森，对不起。
I need to interrupt you there.
我需要在那里打断你。
We do have some breaking news and we need to go to Moscow.
我们确实有一些突发新闻，我们需要去莫斯科。
This is Attorney General John Ashcroft talking about a terrorist capture.
这是司法部长约翰·阿什克罗夫特谈论恐怖分子抓捕事件。
--United States in his capacity as commander-in-chief determined that Abdullah al-Mujahir, born Jose Padilla, is an enemy combatant.
——美国以总司令的身份确定阿卜杜拉·穆贾希尔（原名何塞·帕迪拉）是敌方战斗人员。
In apprehending al-Mujahir as he sought entry into the United States, we have disrupted an unfolding terrorist plot to attack the United States by exploding a radioactive dirty bomb.
在逮捕试图进入美国的穆贾希尔时，我们通过引爆放射性脏弹，挫败了一场正在展开的袭击美国的恐怖分子阴谋。
And then, an hour after that press conference, the administration launched a series of other press conferences.
然后，在那场新闻发布会一小时后，政府又召开了一系列其他新闻发布会。
Right away, they were backing off Ashcroft's spine-tingling sense of alarm.
他们立刻就摆脱了阿什克罗夫特令人脊背发麻的惊慌感。
Paul Wolfowitz from the Pentagon said it probably wasn't a plot, just some, quote, "loose talk." And here's what FBI director Robert Mueller had to say about it.
五角大楼的保罗·沃尔福威茨表示，这可能不是一个阴谋，只是一些“随意的谈话”。以下是联邦调查局局长罗伯特·穆勒对此的看法。
It had not gone, as far as we know, much past the discussion stage.
据我们所知，它还没有经过讨论阶段。
But there were substantial discussions undertaken.
但进行了实质性讨论。
The timing of all this was curious, because they'd actually nabbed Padilla a month before, but chose to announce it on a day when Washington was reeling over FBI whistleblower Colleen Rowley.
这一切的时机很奇怪，因为他们实际上在一个月前就逮捕了帕迪拉，但却选择在华盛顿对联邦调查局举报人科琳·罗利感到震惊的一天宣布这一消息。
It pushed her off the front pages.
这让她离开了头版。
You remember Rowley.
你还记得罗利。
She was testifying in Congress about all the FBI bungling and miscommunication that made us miss the clues pointing to 9/11.
她正在国会作证，讲述 FBI 的所有笨拙和沟通不畅导致我们错过了指向 9/11 的线索。
More than a few people noticed that the Padilla announcement applied a certain emphasis on bureaucratic efficiency and inter-agency cooperation.
不少人注意到，帕迪拉的公告对官僚效率和机构间合作进行了一定的强调。
Because of the close cooperation among the FBI, the CIA, the Defense Department, and other federal agencies--
由于联邦调查局、中央情报局、国防部和其他联邦机构之间的密切合作——
--was a result of the close cooperative work of FBI agents and CIA agents here and--
——这是联邦调查局特工和中央情报局特工在这里密切合作的结果——
--demonstrates the successful sharing of information and close cooperation among US government agencies that will be key to winning the war against terrorism.
——展示了美国政府机构之间成功的信息共享和密切合作，这将是赢得反恐战争的关键。
The administration was furious with anyone who noticed these coincidences.
政府对任何注意到这些巧合的人感到愤怒。
Here's a White House press conference just after the Padilla story broke.
这是帕迪拉事件爆发后不久举行的白宫新闻发布会。
How do you now respond to critics who are trying to draw a link, fair or unfair, between the announcement of that arrest to the intelligence [UNINTELLIGIBLE]?
您现在如何回应那些试图将逮捕声明与情报[无法理解]联系起来的批评者，无论是公平还是不公平？
Look, these very few people who want to make such an outlandish political accusation represent the most cynical among the most partisan.
瞧，这些极少数想要提出如此古怪的政治指控的人代表了最有党派倾向的人中最愤世嫉俗的人。
And they're not to be taken seriously.
而且他们不应该被认真对待。
In the days afterwards, we learned a little of Padilla's life.
在后来的日子里，我们了解了一些帕迪拉的生活。
His rap sheet as a gang member in Chicago.
他作为芝加哥帮派成员的犯罪记录。
His involvement in a murder-- it was a gun charge in Florida.
他参与了一起谋杀案——这是佛罗里达州的一起枪支指控。
He worked at a Fort Lauderdale Taco Bell, where he converted to Islam.
他在劳德代尔堡塔可钟餐厅工作，并在那里皈依了伊斯兰教。
Later he traveled to Pakistan and Afghanistan.
随后他又前往巴基斯坦和阿富汗。
There, according to two Al-Qaeda informants, he met with terrorist leaders and learned about dirty bombs.
据两名基地组织线人透露，他在那里会见了恐怖分子头目，并了解了脏弹的情况。
In one court filing, the government admitted that their prime source on Padilla, Al-Qaeda leader Abu Zubaydah, had frequently fooled them with false information.
在一份法庭文件中，政府承认帕迪拉的主要消息来源、基地组织领导人阿布·祖巴伊达经常用虚假信息愚弄他们。
The other informant, the government said, had recanted part of his testimony.
政府表示，另一名线人已经撤回了部分证词。
With that hovering in the air, the story disappeared, and with it Padilla-- literally.
随着它在空中盘旋，故事消失了，帕迪拉也随之消失了——字面上的意思。
The government did something to him it has never done to anyone.
政府对他做了从未对任何人做过的事情。
They transferred him from a civilian jail to a military brig outside Charleston, South Carolina.
他们将他从民事监狱转移到南卡罗来纳州查尔斯顿郊外的军事双桅船。
They refused to let him see a lawyer and they never charged him with anything.
他们拒绝让他见律师，也从未对他提出任何指控。
His own mother can't visit him.
他自己的母亲无法探望他。
He will stay in his cell with the lights burning 24 hours a day, according to Ari Fleischer, quote, "for the duration of the war."
据阿里·弗莱舍 (Ari Fleischer) 所说，“在战争期间”，他将呆在牢房里，每天 24 小时都亮着灯。
This was achieved by redefining Padilla with a new term that everyone heard for the first time that Monday morning.
这是通过用周一早上每个人第一次听到的新术语重新定义帕迪拉来实现的。
He is being detained under the laws of war as an enemy combatant.
他根据战争法作为敌方战斗人员被拘留。
Enemy combatant.
敌方战斗人员。
The rules of war talk about "unlawful combatants," but that term applies to soldiers caught on the field of battle.
战争规则谈到“非法战斗人员”，但该术语适用于在战场上被捕的士兵。
Enemy combatants can be American citizens seized in America and held without a lawyer or charges, or without much explanation from the government itself.
敌方战斗人员可以是在美国被捕并在没有律师或指控的情况下被关押的美国公民，或者政府本身没有太多解释的情况下。
If you try to get the Justice Department to talk about Padilla, here's what they say.
如果你试图让司法部谈论帕迪拉，他们是这么说的。
We're not doing any on-the-record interviews in connection with Padilla.
我们不会对帕迪拉进行任何记录采访。
They wouldn't do an off-the-record interview about him either, and on the rare occasions when officials have had to talk about it in public, here's the sort of thing you get.
他们也不会对他进行非正式采访，在极少数情况下，当官员们不得不公开谈论此事时，你会得到这样的结果。
This question was asked at the joint press conference, of Larry Thompson from the Justice Department.
这个问题是司法部拉里·汤普森在联合新闻发布会上提出的。
Beverly?
贝弗利？
Reporter Does he have legal representation at the moment?
记者 他目前有法律代表吗？
He was being held under the authority of a federal judge.
他正在联邦法官的管辖下被关押。
And he had legal representation in connection with that, yes.
是的，他有与此相关的法律代表。
Does he now?
他现在有吗？
Does he now?
他现在有吗？
Reporter Larry, how far did they get--
记者拉里，他们走了多远——
Does he now, she's asking.
她问，他现在可以吗？
Does he have legal representation now?
他现在有法律代表吗？
Thompson ignores her, takes one more question, and then ends the press conference.
汤普森无视了她，又问了一个问题，然后结束了新闻发布会。
The answer to the question, of course, is no. Padilla lost his lawyer only a few hours before this press conference, when he was redefined as an enemy combatant.
这个问题的答案当然是否定的。帕迪拉在新闻发布会前几个小时失去了他的律师，当时他被重新定义为敌方战斗人员。
A word now about that lawyer.
现在谈谈那位律师。
For the month prior to the Ashcroft press conference, Padilla had been held in jail as a possible material witness for some kind of crime.
在阿什克罗夫特新闻发布会之前的一个月，帕迪拉作为某种犯罪的可能重要证人被关进监狱。
We don't know what it was.
我们不知道那是什么。
For the indigent, though, there's a round robin of good working lawyers who donate their time.
不过，对于贫困者来说，优秀的工作律师会轮流贡献自己的时间。
For Padilla, the wheel spun and turned up a defense lawyer who hangs her shingle across the street from the courthouse in Jersey City, New Jersey.
对于帕迪拉来说，轮盘旋转并出现了一位辩护律师，她将她的牌匾挂在新泽西州泽西市法院大楼的街对面。
Located just above a bail bondsman office, it's a two-woman shop-- a secretary named Angela and a lawyer, Donna Newman.
它位于保释担保人办公室的正上方，是一家由两名女性组成的商店——一位名叫安吉拉的秘书和一位名叫唐娜·纽曼的律师。
Newman works the standard criminal defense beat-- fraud, money laundering, mobsters, drugs.
纽曼从事标准的刑事辩护工作——欺诈、洗钱、黑帮、毒品。
Not the sort of lawyer who usually ends up suing the Attorney General, Secretary of Defense, and the President of the United States.
不是那种通常会起诉司法部长、国防部长和美国总统的律师。
I don't think so.
我不这么认为。
I don't know.
我不知道。
They'd be surprised.
他们会很惊讶。
I did well in law school, a good student, but I certainly would not have been the one they would have chosen.
我在法学院表现很好，是一名好学生，但我肯定不会是他们会选择的人。
I'm certainly not a radical.
我当然不是激进分子。
And it's a joke to think I am, because that's how unradical I am.
认为我是个笑话，因为我就是这么不激进。
I'm very conservative in my lifestyle, in my children.
我对我的生活方式和我的孩子都非常保守。
I'm older.
我年纪大了。
I have grown children.
我有已经长大的孩子。
I didn't even picket in the '60s.
六十年代我什至没有纠察过。
When Newman first got the case, it was like dozens she'd seen.
当纽曼第一次接到这个案子时，她已经见过几十个案子了。
File a bunch of papers contesting the warrant, seeking bail-- routine stuff.
提交一堆文件来质疑搜查令、寻求保释——这些都是例行公事。
And the judge sets a hearing date, in this case June 11.
法官设定了听证会日期，本案为 6 月 11 日。
June 11 was also the day John Ashcroft broke into regular television programming around 10:00 AM with his Moscow conference about Padilla.
6 月 11 日，约翰·阿什克罗夫特 (John Ashcroft) 也在上午 10:00 左右闯入常规电视节目，在莫斯科召开了有关帕迪拉 (Padilla) 的会议。
Not everybody was in front of a TV to hear, people like Padilla's lawyer, Donna Newman.
并不是每个人都坐在电视机前聆听，比如帕迪拉的律师唐娜·纽曼(Donna Newman)。
I'm in my car and I'm going to court.
我正在车里，要去法庭。
I hadn't had the radio on.
我没有打开收音机。
And I receive a call on my cellphone from the assistant United States attorney.
我的手机接到美国助理检察官打来的电话。
And he advised me that my client was taken by the military to a naval brig.
他告诉我，我的当事人被军方带到了海军双桅船。
I thought he was kidding.
我以为他是在开玩笑。
Needless to say, if you're hearing this and you hadn't listened to the radio, you would also think that this was a joke.
不用说，如果你听到这个并且你没有听过广播，你也会认为这是一个笑话。
Ashcroft-- I mean, giving this statement, it's just like, what are you talking about?
阿什克罗夫特——我的意思是，发表这样的声明，就像是，你在说什么？
To explain what happens next, I have to talk about something so basic, a principle that's so ingrained in what this country is, that most of us don't even know it exists-- habeas corpus.
为了解释接下来发生的事情，我必须谈谈一些非常基本的原则，这个原则在这个国家根深蒂固，我们大多数人甚至不知道它的存在——人身保护令。
We've all heard that phrase, although let's be honest, we don't quite know what it means.
我们都听过这句话，尽管说实话，我们不太明白它的含义。
Actually, it's the most fundamental routine of all Western law.
事实上，这是所有西方法律最基本的惯例。
It's 700 years old.
已有700年历史了。
Its meaning in Latin, "you hold the body," sounds like a challenge, and it is.
它在拉丁语中的意思是“你握住身体”，听起来像是一个挑战，事实也确实如此。
At every criminal arrest, it orders the government to show the body-- in other words, show me the guy you're holding, so I can see he's OK, and second, tell us the charge against him.
在每次刑事逮捕中，它都会命令政府出示尸体——换句话说，让我看看你抓着的人，这样我就能看到他没事，其次，告诉我们对他的指控。
Known as "the great writ of liberty," its suspension was, along with unfair taxation, the primary reason for the American Revolution.
它被称为“伟大的自由令”，它的暂停以及不公平的税收是美国革命的主要原因。
The founding fathers enshrined habeas in Article I of our Constitution, declaring it could be suspended only during, quote, "rebellion or invasion." When a government starts tossing out things as foundational as habeas, the proceedings quickly grow strange.
国父们将人身保护令写入宪法第一条，并宣称只有在“叛乱或入侵”期间才可以暂停人身保护权。当政府开始抛弃像人身保护令这样的基本规定时，程序很快就会变得奇怪。
Soon after the Ashcroft press conference, Newman went to court to find out what happened to her client.
阿什克罗夫特新闻发布会后不久，纽曼就去法庭了解她的当事人发生了什么事。
She was told she no longer had a client, because her client no longer had a lawyer.
她被告知她不再有客户，因为她的客户不再有律师。
But Newman wouldn't hear it.
但纽曼听不到。
She kept on filing motions as if the old routines of the law were still in place.
她继续提出动议，就好像旧的法律程序仍然有效一样。
That said, she was in uncharted terrain, and the problems she encountered were often surreal.
也就是说，她处于未知的领域，遇到的问题常常是超现实的。
For habeas to be filed, the petitioner-- in this case, Mr. Padilla-- has to sign it.
要提交人身保护令，请愿人（在本案中为帕迪拉先生）必须签署。
They have the audacity to complain that he can't sign it.
他们竟然厚颜无耻地抱怨他不能签字。
So it's not a valid petition because he can't sign it.
所以这不是一份有效的请愿书，因为他无法签署。
Well, of course, you're the one who took him away.
嗯，当然，你就是把他带走的人。
So that's mind-boggling, that they make that argument.
所以他们提出这样的论点真是令人难以置信。
They said, in the beginning of one of their briefs, that we did not dispute his enemy combatant status or the facts leading up to the government's declaration.
他们在一份简报的一开始就表示，我们对他的敌方战斗员身份或导致政府宣布这一事实的事实没有异议。
Well, that's another Catch-22.
嗯，这又是第二十二条军规。
How can I dispute it?
我该如何对此提出异议？
Can I meet with my client?
我可以和我的客户见面吗？
So you're saying I concede this because you've made it so that I can't meet with him.
所以你是说我承认这一点是因为你让我无法见到他。
And I wonder, who is writing the brief?
我想知道是谁在写这份简报？
Aren't they embarrassed to write that?
他们这样写不觉得尴尬吗？
I mean, I couldn't write that.
我的意思是，我写不出来。
I would be going, what is the judge going think of me by my writing that?
我会想，法官会通过我写下的内容来看待我吗？
Because it's so clear.
因为它是如此清晰。
Well, of course she can't hand in an affidavit.
好吧，她当然不能提交宣誓书。
He's not around, remember?
他不在身边，记得吗？
You're the one who took him away.
是你把他带走的。
The government did cite legal precedent for its right to hold Padilla, specifically two cases.
政府确实援引了其拘留帕迪拉的权利的法律先例，特别是两个案例。
There's clear Supreme Court and circuit court authority for such a detention.
最高法院和巡回法院对于此类拘留有明确的权力。
It's a 1942 case, Ex parte Quirin.
这是一个 1942 年的案件，单方奎林。
And there's a 9th Circuit case, and I forgot the name of it.
还有一个第九巡回法院的案件，我忘记了它的名字。
It's In re Territo.
这是《In re Territo》。
It's a 1946 case.
这是一个1946年的案例。
Let's talk about those cases.
我们来谈谈那些案例。
The Territo case involved a man who was born an American citizen but who grew up in Italy.
特里托案涉及一名出生于美国公民但在意大利长大的男子。
He was captured on the battlefield in World War II, fighting on the side of fascist Italy.
他在第二次世界大战的战场上被俘，为法西斯意大利一边战斗。
Unlike Padilla, he was charged, given a lawyer and a trial.
与帕迪拉不同的是，他受到了指控，并聘请了律师并接受了审判。
The Quirin case involved eight Nazis, including one American citizen, who actually landed on Long Island in 1942 with plans to blow up US factories.
奎林案涉及 8 名纳粹分子，其中包括一名美国公民，他们实际上于 1942 年登陆长岛，计划炸毁美国工厂。
They were all given lawyers and had trials, even though the war was on.
尽管战争仍在继续，但他们都得到了律师并接受了审判。
The only question in both cases was what kind of proceeding, in a civilian court or a military tribunal?
这两起案件中唯一的问题是在民事法庭还是军事法庭进行什么样的诉讼？
There was no question that they'd get lawyers and trials.
毫无疑问，他们会请律师并接受审判。
We do have Mr. Padilla, or Mr. al-Mujahir as he called himself more recently, in military custody.
我们确实有帕迪拉先生，或者他最近自称的穆贾希尔先生，被军方拘留。
Even though the Justice Department won't speak on the record to journalists, there have been rare occasions where certain officials have tried to explain what has happened.
尽管司法部不会公开接受记者采访，但某些官员在极少数情况下试图解释所发生的事情。
Here's assistant Attorney General Michael Chertoff at a public forum at the New York University law school.
这是助理司法部长迈克尔·切尔托夫在纽约大学法学院的一个公共论坛上的报道。
He says the question raised by the Padilla case is this one.
他说帕迪拉案提出的问题就是这个。
--the issue of, what do you do when you apprehend people in the field of battle?
——问题是，当你在战场上逮捕人时，你会怎么做？
Let me go back to World War II.
让我回到第二次世界大战。
We captured a lot of Germans and Japanese and Italians in the battlefield in the course of the war.
战争期间，我们在战场上俘虏了很多德国人、日本人和意大利人。
Those people didn't get lawyers.
那些人没有请律师。
Do we really think, in the battlefield, that we should lawyer up everybody who's captured?
我们真的认为在战场上我们应该为所有被俘的人辩护吗？
Chertoff takes for granted the assumption that since planes flew into buildings on 9/11, everywhere in America is now a battlefield.
切尔托夫理所当然地认为，自从 9/11 事件发生飞机撞向建筑物以来，美国各地现在都是战场。
And on some level, we all know there's some truth in this.
在某种程度上，我们都知道这有一定道理。
But still, there are distinctions.
但仍然存在区别。
No one is talking about providing lawyers to the Al-Qaeda terrorists in Guantanamo.
没有人谈论为关塔那摩的基地组织恐怖分子提供律师。
They're prisoners of war captured in Afghanistan.
他们是在阿富汗被俘的战俘。
Padilla is an American citizen seized in Chicago.
帕迪拉是一名在芝加哥被捕的美国公民。
And then there's that phrase he used, "lawyer up," as if this involves someone who spilled hot coffee on her lap at McDonald's, and not the suspension of habeas corpus that dates back 700 years and is one of the core principles of our Constitution.
然后他用了“律师起来”这句话，就好像这涉及到有人在麦当劳把热咖啡洒在她的腿上，而不是700年前暂停的人身保护令，这是我们宪法的核心原则之一。
America was founded on the proposition that when we get in trouble, we get lawyered up.
美国的立国理念是：当我们遇到麻烦时，我们会请律师。
And part of what's so confusing about Padilla is that so many other defendants have been lawyered up.
帕迪拉令人困惑的部分原因在于，许多其他被告都已接受律师辩护。
Remember John Walker Lindh, the so-called American Taliban?
还记得所谓的美国塔利班约翰·沃克·林德吗？
He was actually captured on the field of battle in Afghanistan.
他实际上是在阿富汗战场上被俘的。
Now that's an enemy combatant.
现在那是敌方战斗人员。
He got lawyered up.
他请了律师。
The Buffalo Six, those young Muslims who slipped into Afghanistan and then came back to America?
水牛六人组，那些潜入阿富汗然后又回到美国的年轻穆斯林？
Arrested and lawyered up.
被捕并请律师。
How about Zacarias Moussaoui?
扎卡里亚斯·穆萨维怎么样？
He's not even an American.
他甚至不是美国人。
He's a French Moroccan, and was allegedly the 20th guy on September 11.
他是法裔摩洛哥人，据称是 9 月 11 日的第 20 号人。
Lawyered up.
律师了。
In the end, it may be that the real reason Padilla has been refused a lawyer is not the alarming evidence against him, but the opposite.
最后，帕迪拉被拒绝聘请律师的真正原因可能不是针对他的令人震惊的证据，而是相反。
They have less evidence against Mr. Padilla, so they can't bring charges.
他们对帕迪拉先生的证据较少，因此无法提出指控。
See, they don't have probable cause to bring a charge.
看，他们没有合理的理由提出指控。
They certainly couldn't prove a charge.
他们当然无法证明指控。
So their solution, which is really frightening, is if we can't prove a case, we simply get rid of the individual.
因此，他们的解决方案确实令人恐惧，如果我们无法证明某个案例，我们就干脆除掉这个人。
We simply lock them up.
我们只是把它们锁起来。
And that just turns our criminal justice system upside-down.
这只会使我们的刑事司法系统发生翻天覆地的变化。
Warning.
警告。
Restricted area.
禁区。
Keep out.
远离。
Authorized personnel only.
仅限授权人员。
Man, this thing is huge.
伙计，这件事太大了。
Over the Christmas holiday, I was in Charleston, South Carolina, visiting my mom.
圣诞节期间，我在南卡罗来纳州查尔斯顿看望我的妈妈。
One morning, my nephew and I drove over to the Navy facility where the government's holding Padilla.
一天早上，我和我的侄子开车去了政府关押帕迪拉的海军设施。
I got turned away, of course, told that the closest I could get was the fence, so I pulled over.
当然，我被拒绝了，并被告知我能到达的最近的地方就是栅栏，所以我把车停在了路边。
Behind the barbed wire was, strangely, nothing more than acres and acres of low-country pine forest, the kind I grew up in.
奇怪的是，铁丝网后面只不过是大片大片的低地松树林，我就是在这种松树林里长大的。
Deep in it, somewhere, was the brig and Jose Padilla.
双桅船和何塞·帕迪拉就在船的深处。
Just before this, the New York Judge who was hearing Donna Newman's motions, Michael Mukasey, issued his ruling.
就在这之前，听取唐娜·纽曼动议的纽约法官迈克尔·穆卡西发布了裁决。
It was a Solomonic one.
这是所罗门式的。
He said Padilla could finally meet with his lawyer to challenge his status as an enemy combatant.
他说帕迪拉终于可以与他的律师会面，挑战他作为敌方战斗人员的身份。
But he also said President Bush had the power to declare American citizens on home soil to be enemy combatants.
但他也表示，布什总统有权宣布本土的美国公民为敌方战斗人员。
Finally, he also said the court should oversee it all.
最后，他还表示法院应该监督这一切。
The tone of Mukasey's opinion is nervous.
穆卡西发表意见的语气很紧张。
He's nervous.
他很紧张。
At one point he opines about the kind of case, quote, "a judge is unqualified for but must decide." And if you read all those old opinions, like the World War II cases, all the judges write in the same nervous tone.
有一次，他对这种案件发表了自己的看法，引用的话是：“法官没有资格审理，但必须做出裁决。”如果你读过所有那些旧的观点，比如二战的案件，所有的法官都以同样紧张的语气写下。
They don't toss off habeas very easily.
他们不会轻易放弃人身保护令。
Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurter, who supported the Quirin decision when it came down, groaned later, "It's not a happy precedent."
最高法院法官费利克斯·法兰克福特在奎林案的裁决被推翻后表示支持，但后来抱怨道：“这不是一个令人高兴的先例。”
In comparison, the Bush administration is not agonizing about suspending this basic right, at least not publicly.
相比之下，布什政府并不为暂停这项基本权利而苦恼，至少没有公开。
While in the Persian Gulf, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld complained about folks who are concerned with Padilla's right to see a lawyer.
在波斯湾期间，国防部长唐纳德·拉姆斯菲尔德对那些担心帕迪拉会见律师权利的人提出了抱怨。
Quote, "Our normal procedure is that if somebody does something unlawful, that the first thing we want to do is apprehend them, then try them in a court, and then punish them.
引用：“我们的正常程序是，如果有人做了违法的事情，我们要做的第一件事就是逮捕他们，然后在法庭上审判他们，然后惩罚他们。
In this case, that is not our first interest.
在这种情况下，这不是我们的首要兴趣。
Our interest, really, in this case is not law enforcement.
实际上，在这种情况下，我们的兴趣不是执法。
It's not punishment.
这不是惩罚。
Our interest at the moment is to try to find out everything he knows."
我们目前的兴趣是试图找出他所知道的一切。”
Maybe Donald Rumsfeld is right, that the War on Terror is so important that we do need to lock people up without charges for the duration of the war just to find out what they know.
也许唐纳德·拉姆斯菲尔德是对的，反恐战争是如此重要，以至于我们确实需要在战争期间不加指控地关押人们，只是为了了解他们所知道的事情。
Maybe it's true that the new battlefield is not just in Afghanistan but extends everywhere and anywhere on our own soil.
也许新的战场确实不仅仅在阿富汗，而是延伸到我们自己土地上的任何地方。
Maybe it's true that even though in every previous war the courts have permitted some kind of trial, this war is different.
也许确实如此，尽管在以前的每场战争中法院都允许某种形式的审判，但这场战争是不同的。
And maybe it's true that we have to trust the government when it says, the secret evidence against these Americans can't be revealed in a court of law.
当政府说，针对这些美国人的秘密证据不能在法庭上披露时，也许我们确实必须相信政府。
Maybe we need to be rethinking our basic Constitutional rights.
也许我们需要重新思考我们的基本宪法权利。
But if so, it's not to be done lightly, not to be done off the record.
但如果是这样，那就不能轻易做，也不能私下做。
We should, as a people, talk about all this and agree on it first.
作为一个民族，我们应该首先讨论这一切并达成一致。
This week, The Wall Street Journal reported that the government is preparing to declare some more American citizens here at home to be enemy combatants and remove them to military bases.
本周，《华尔街日报》报道称，政府正准备宣布更多美国公民为敌方战斗人员，并将他们转移到军事基地。
So start talking.
那么开始说话吧。
Jack Hitt in New Haven.
杰克·希特在纽黑文。
One quick footnote to that story, before you start talking.
在你开始讲话之前，先给这个故事做一个简短的脚注。
Late this week, the government went to the judge in Jose Padilla's case and asked the judge to consider changing his recent decision about Padilla, specifically his decision to let Donna Newman meet and confer with Padilla as lawyer and client.
本周晚些时候，政府找到何塞·帕迪拉一案的法官，要求法官考虑改变他最近关于帕迪拉的决定，特别是让唐娜·纽曼作为律师和委托人与帕迪拉会面和协商的决定。
The reason the government gives for this?
政府对此给出的理由是什么？
They're interrogating him, they say.
他们说，他们正在审问他。
And the government says that if he sees a lawyer and has any hope of getting out any time soon, he won't give any information in the interrogation.
政府表示，如果他见律师并有希望尽快出狱，他不会在审讯中提供任何信息。
OK.
好的。
You have one minute to start talking.
你有一分钟的时间开始说话。
Coming up, a sneaky way to get some answers about secret deportations.
即将推出，一种偷偷摸摸的方式来获得一些有关秘密驱逐的答案。
That's in one Chicago minute from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
距芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台仅一分钟路程，我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose some theme, and bring you a variety of different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，每周我们的节目都会选择一些主题，并为您带来有关该主题的各种不同类型的故事。
Today's show, The Secret Government, a beginner's guide to all the new secrecy in our country.
今天的节目《秘密政府》是我国所有新秘密的初学者指南。
We've arrived at Act Two of our program.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act Two, Secret Trials and Secret Deportations.
第二幕，秘密审判和秘密驱逐。
In the current war, the War on Terror, the government has been rounding up foreigners, checking their immigration status, and then sometimes deporting them.
在当前的反恐战争中，政府一直在围捕外国人，检查他们的移民身份，有时甚至将他们驱逐出境。
David Kestenbaum tried to find out everything that can be found out about who they are and what happened to them once they were arrested and put on trial in secret.
大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆试图找出一切可以查出的信息，包括他们是谁，以及他们被捕并秘密接受审判后发生了什么。
In the months after September 11, the US government rounded up over 700 immigrants, 700 people, and refused to talk about them, even in court.
9月11日之后的几个月里，美国政府围捕了700多名移民、700人，并且拒绝谈论他们，甚至在法庭上也是如此。
Civil rights groups sued to get the names, and as part of the filings, here's how far things have gone.
民权组织提起诉讼以获取这些姓名，作为文件的一部分，以下是事情的进展情况。
The government submitted a 118-page list of people who had been detained, their names, one by one, inked out with a black marker.
政府提交了一份118页的被拘留者名单，他们的名字都用黑色记号笔一一写下。
[DIAL TONE] Good morning.
[拨号音]早上好。
Public Affairs.
公共事务。
Today, the Department of Justice will only talk round numbers.
今天，司法部只会谈论整数。
You're about to hear just about everything the government has to say on the subject.
您将听到政府关于这个问题的几乎所有言论。
I talked with Jorge Martinez, a spokesperson for the DOJ.
我与司法部发言人豪尔赫·马丁内斯进行了交谈。
Can you tell me how many people were detained on immigration charges in the sweep after September 11?
您能否告诉我，在 9 月 11 日之后的扫荡行动中，有多少人因移民指控而被拘留？
765.
765.
David Kestenbaum How many people ended up being deported?
David Kestenbaum 有多少人最终被驱逐出境？
Do you have any sense for how many of them had ties to terrorism?
您知道其中有多少人与恐怖主义有联系吗？
We don't, and because it is classified and sensitive information, I am precluded by our regulations from talking about it.
我们不这样做，而且由于它是机密和敏感信息，我们的规定不允许我谈论它。
What if I have the names of some of the people?
如果我有一些人的名字怎么办？
Can you then discuss their cases with me?
那你能和我讨论一下他们的案例吗？
No, unfortunately, I can't, again, because it is part of an ongoing investigation.
不，不幸的是，我不能再次这样做，因为这是正在进行的调查的一部分。
And I am precluded from talking about it.
我无法谈论它。
And there are six people still in custody?
还有六人仍被拘留？
Yes.
是的。
David Kestenbaum Can you tell me anything about them?
David Kestenbaum 你能告诉我一些关于他们的事情吗？
No, unfortunately, I can't.
不，不幸的是，我不能。
David Kestenbaum What is the government hiding?
大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 政府隐瞒了什么？
If you want to know who was deported, why they were fingered in the investigation, how long they were held, did they get a fair trial, did they get to make a phone call, you have to try somewhere besides Washington, D.C.
如果你想知道谁被驱逐出境，为什么他们受到调查，他们被关押了多长时间，他们是否得到了公平的审判，他们是否可以打电话，你必须在华盛顿特区以外的地方尝试。
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen, and a warm welcome on board our Swiss flight bound for Karachi.
晚上好，女士们先生们，热烈欢迎您登上我们飞往卡拉奇的瑞士航班。
Swissair Flight 246 to Pakistan.
瑞士航空 246 航班飞往巴基斯坦。
Coach class, unwatchable movie starring Robin Williams.
教练级，罗宾·威廉姆斯主演的不可观看的电影。
Our mission: to meet some of the 400 people who got kicked out and find out what happened.
我们的使命：与 400 名被开除的人中的一些人会面，了解发生了什么。
Let me say up front that the people you're going to hear were tracked down by the American Civil Liberties Union, which thinks the government behaved very badly here.
让我先说一下，你们将要听到的这些人是被美国公民自由联盟追踪的，该联盟认为政府在这里的行为非常糟糕。
Emily Whitfield from the ACLU is also on the plane.
美国公民自由联盟 (ACLU) 的艾米丽·惠特菲尔德 (Emily Whitfield) 也在飞机上。
She's sitting up in business class.
她坐在商务舱里。
When the feds wouldn't release the names, the ACLU did something clever.
当联邦政府不肯公布这些名字时，美国公民自由联盟做了一些聪明的事情。
It did an end-run around our government and wrote letters to foreign embassies requesting the names of deportees, letters to the countries where the people had been sent back to.
它对我们的政府进行了最后的围攻，写信给外国大使馆索要被驱逐者的姓名，还写信给人们被遣返回国。
United Arab Emirates, Pakistan, India, et cetera.
阿拉伯联合酋长国、巴基斯坦、印度等。
And we heard back from some of them, just a polite "thanks for getting in touch." But the Pakistan consulate called us back.
我们收到了其中一些人的回复，只是礼貌地说“感谢您与我们联系”。但巴基斯坦领事馆给我们回电话了。
And they said, oh, yeah, we have a list.
他们说，哦，是的，我们有一个清单。
And we said, do you, now?
我们说，你现在呢？
Can we see it?
我们能看到吗？
And they said, sure.
他们说，当然。
And that was extraordinary, because another country was giving us something our own government would not give to us.
这是非同寻常的，因为另一个国家正在给我们一些我们自己的政府不会给我们的东西。
The plane takes a weird turn to fly around Iraq, and lands in Karachi, Pakistan.
这架飞机奇怪地转弯，绕伊拉克飞行，最后降落在巴基斯坦卡拉奇。
This is where Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and decapitated.
这里是丹尼尔·珀尔被绑架并斩首的地方。
Bin Laden himself may be hiding in Pakistan.
本拉登本人可能躲藏在巴基斯坦。
I think about this, getting off the plane.
下了飞机，我就这样想着。
To find out what the Justice Department is hiding, I've gone somewhere the State Department warns not to.
为了查明司法部隐藏了什么，我去了国务院警告不要去的地方。
Non-emergency personnel at the embassy here have been ordered to leave.
使馆的非紧急人员已被勒令离开。
Over the course of a week, I visit a handful of people who have been deported from the United States.
在一周的时间里，我拜访了一些被美国驱逐出境的人。
Here's the deal.
事情是这样的。
The Pakistani embassy's list had over 100 people on it.
巴基斯坦大使馆的名单上有100多人。
The ACLU, with the help of a Pakistani civil rights group, tracked down about 35 of those.
美国公民自由联盟 (ACLU) 在巴基斯坦民权组织的帮助下找到了其中约 35 人。
19 were willing to talk to the press.
19人愿意接受媒体采访。
Of these, the ACLU people set up interviews with five whose cases they thought were compelling.
其中，美国公民自由联盟的人员对五名他们认为有说服力的案例进行了采访。
And yes, in some instances, the US government seems to have behaved in ways I think many Americans would think was pretty unfair.
是的，在某些情况下，美国政府的行为方式似乎对许多美国人来说是相当不公平的。
But I have to say, other times things didn't seem so bad, even in these hand-picked cases.
但我不得不说，其他时候事情似乎并没有那么糟糕，即使是在这些精心挑选的案例中。
But you can judge for yourself.
但你可以自己判断。
Also there was one nagging question every deportee had.
每个被驱逐者都有一个挥之不去的问题。
I'll get to that later.
我稍后再讲。
[SPEAKING URDU] David Kestenbaum The cab driver on the first day has a long white beard and says he was a big fan of the Taliban, but he seems perfectly nice.
[说乌尔都语] David Kestenbaum 第一天的出租车司机留着长长的白胡子，说他是塔利班的忠实粉丝，但他看起来非常友善。
He stops to ask directions a few times and pulls into a dusty street where a man named Ansar Mahmood lives.
他几次停下来问路，然后把车开进一条尘土飞扬的街道，那里住着一个名叫安萨尔·马哈茂德的人。
Until recently, Ansar and his family lived 7,000 miles west of here in New Jersey.
直到最近，安萨尔和他的家人还住在距这里以西 7,000 英里的新泽西州。
Ansar's story begins like this.
安萨尔的故事是这样开始的。
One morning, three weeks after the attacks on the World Trade Center, his doorbell rang.
世贸中心袭击三周后的一天早上，他的门铃响了。
Ansar looked out the window and saw 25 or 30 FBI agents.
安萨尔向窗外望去，看到了 25 或 30 名联邦调查局特工。
He says he knew they were FBI because they had FBI on their jackets just like on TV.
他说他知道他们是联邦调查局，因为他们的夹克上有联邦调查局的字样，就像电视上一样。
The FBI arrested him.
联邦调查局逮捕了他。
His wife, Uzma, says that for 25 days, she had no idea at all where he was.
他的妻子乌兹玛 (Uzma) 说，有 25 天的时间，她根本不知道他在哪里。
He just vanished, like that.
他就这样消失了。
They didn't give me any hint, where is he and where they take him and when he will come back, and this and that.
他们没有给我任何提示，他在哪里，他们带他去哪里，他什么时候回来，等等。
He was just gone away from our life.
他就这样离开了我们的生活。
What about the kids?
孩子们呢？
Uzma Yes, they were very upset.
乌兹玛 是的，他们非常沮丧。
They were very aggressive at the time, after some times that they were out of control.
他们当时非常咄咄逼人，经过一段时间后，他们失去了控制。
I cannot control them after four, five months.
四五个月后我就无法控制它们了。
They wanted to kill everybody.
他们想杀死所有人。
They hit me twice.
他们打了我两次。
Here's what Ansar says happened to him.
这是安萨尔所说的发生在他身上的事情。
When the FBI came by, the agents asked if he knew anything about Osama Bin Laden.
当联邦调查局过来时，特工询问他是否了解奥萨马·本·拉登。
They also asked about Ansar's brother-in-law, who they suspected was involved in credit card fraud.
他们还询问了安萨尔的妹夫，他们怀疑他参与了信用卡欺诈。
Ansar says the FBI eventually took him into custody for a different reason, because he had overstayed his visa.
安萨尔说，联邦调查局最终以不同的原因拘留了他，因为他的签证逾期了。
This, he admits, is true.
他承认，这是事实。
He was working in the country illegally, using a fake Social Security card.
他使用假社会保障卡在该国非法工作。
They put him in a jail near the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway.
他们把他关进布鲁克林-皇后高速公路附近的监狱。
He says he was told not to ask any questions or he would be killed, and he was placed in solitary confinement for four months.
他说，他被告知不要提出任何问题，否则就会被杀，他被单独监禁了四个月。
The size of the cell is six feet wide and about 12 feet long.
牢房的大小为 6 英尺宽，约 12 英尺长。
What I can see from the window-- I can see the sky.
我从窗户看到的——我可以看到天空。
I can see the traffic.
我可以看到交通情况。
I can see the BQE.
我可以看到 BQE。
Or sometimes, they transfer us to a different cell-- I can see the Statue of Liberty too.
或者有时候，他们把我们转移到另一个牢房——我也可以看到自由女神像。
In cells 19 to 25, you can see the Statue of Liberty from there.
在 19 至 25 号牢房中，您可以从那里看到自由女神像。
Yeah, they are good rooms.
是的，它们是好房间。
Because at least you can see the sea.
因为至少可以看到海。
You can see the river and you can see the Statue of Liberty in front of you, which is the symbol of liberty of the United States.
你可以看到河流，你可以看到前面的自由女神像，它是美国自由的象征。
After a month, jail personnel painted over the window, possibly for security reasons, possibly to avoid quotes like the one you just heard.
一个月后，监狱工作人员在窗户上画了画，可能是出于安全原因，也可能是为了避免像你刚刚听到的那样引用。
Ansar says the cell became like a grave.
安萨尔说，牢房变得像坟墓一样。
Seven months after he was taken into custody, the INS took him out of jail and deported him to Pakistan.
在他被拘留七个月后，移民局将他带出监狱并将他驱逐到巴基斯坦。
A word of caution here.
这里需要注意一点。
If you feel like you've heard stories like Ansar's before, you may have actually heard his.
如果你觉得你以前听过安萨尔这样的故事，那么你可能真的听过他的故事。
His family has become a poster child for groups who oppose the government's secret deportations.
他的家人已成为反对政府秘密驱逐团体的典型代表。
I've been on ABC.
我上过ABC。
I've been on CNN, BBC, PBS, UPN-9.
我曾上过 CNN、BBC、PBS、UPN-9 节目。
Ansar's son, Uzer, who's 14.
Ansar 的儿子 Uzer，14 岁。
Uzer We've been on an Italian TV show.
Uzer 我们上过意大利电视节目。
We've been in a Spanish newspaper.
我们上过西班牙报纸。
All the newspapers you can imagine, we've been in them.
你能想象到的所有报纸，我们都上过。
So does that make you maybe think that your father's case was unusual?
那么这是否让您认为您父亲的情况不寻常？
Yes, it was unusual.
是的，这很不寻常。
David Kestenbaum His dad's case was unusual.
大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆（David Kestenbaum） 他父亲的情况很不寻常。
Ansar was detained for seven months.
安萨尔被拘留了七个月。
The average time seems to be about two months.
平均时间好像是两个月左右。
And the fact that his family didn't know where he was for weeks-- that seems to be very unusual.
事实上，他的家人连续几周都不知道他在哪里——这似乎很不寻常。
Uzer's dad did get his time before a judge.
乌泽尔的父亲确实在法官面前受审。
He was convicted of a felony for using an altered Social Security card and deported for overstaying his visa.
他因使用篡改的社会保障卡而被判重罪，并因签证逾期而被驱逐出境。
It's worth mentioning that these are pretty common offenses.
值得一提的是，这些都是相当常见的罪行。
By the government's own estimates, there are over a quarter million people in the United States who have overstayed their visas and have been told to leave.
根据政府自己的估计，美国有超过 25 万人签证过期并被告知离开。
So what brought 25 FBI agents to Ansar's door and not others?
那么，是什么让 25 名 FBI 探员来到 Ansar 的门前，而不是其他探员呢？
That's a mystery.
这是一个谜。
But still, an overstayed visa is a deportable offense.
但签证逾期仍属可驱逐出境的违法行为。
As for all the secrecy, Uzer thinks it's because the government is embarrassed.
至于所有的秘密，乌泽认为这是因为政府感到尴尬。
It doesn't want to be seen picking on families like his.
它不想被人看到对像他这样的家庭进行欺负。
The government don't want to show its face.
政府不想露面。
It doesn't want to get screamed at.
它不想被人尖叫。
It doesn't want to say sorry.
它不想说对不起。
Like people, when they hit somebody, somebody's going to say, say sorry to that guy.
就像人一样，当他们打别人时，有人会说，向那个人道歉。
And they say, oh, I'm sorry.
他们说，哦，对不起。
Even if they hate the person.
即使他们讨厌这个人。
They say, I'm sorry.
他们说，对不起。
Why can't you just say sorry?
为什么就不能直接说声对不起呢？
That's my question to the Bush administration right now.
这是我现在向布什政府提出的问题。
If they listen to this, I want to ask them to say sorry and give my house back and give my life back.
如果他们听到这个，我想请他们道歉，还给我的房子，还给我的生活。
It's not hard for them.
这对他们来说并不难。
They have a lot of money.
他们有很多钱。
Uzer says life in Pakistan sucks.
乌泽尔说巴基斯坦的生活很糟糕。
Neither he nor his brothers really speak the language.
他和他的兄弟都不会说这种语言。
Kids at school have thrown rocks at them, calling them Americans, though of course they weren't real Americans, American citizens.
学校里的孩子们向他们扔石头，称他们为美国人，尽管他们当然不是真正的美国人，美国公民。
Uzer and his brothers played basketball when they lived in New Jersey.
乌泽尔和他的兄弟住在新泽西州时打篮球。
I ask if they need a new ball.
我问他们是否需要一个新球。
I can send them one.
我可以给他们寄一份。
Uzer looks at me and says, man, what we need is a court.
乌泽尔看着我说，伙计，我们需要的是一个法庭。
This is the part of the story where you would typically hear the US government's side of things, the government's take on what happened to Ansar and why they were investigating him in the first place.
在故事的这一部分，你通常会听到美国政府的立场、政府对安萨尔事件的看法以及他们最初调查他的原因。
But of course, it refuses to discuss any of these cases.
但当然，它拒绝讨论任何这些案例。
As a lousy second choice, I've brought along a tape recording of someone from the Department of Justice who spoke at a debate a while back.
作为糟糕的第二选择，我带来了司法部某人不久前在一场辩论中发言的录音。
I'll play some of it for you in a little bit.
稍后我会为您播放其中的一些内容。
The next deportee on the list is Huram Alta.
名单上的下一个被驱逐者是胡拉姆·阿尔塔 (Huram Alta)。
I meet him at his parents' house in Islamabad.
我在他父母位于伊斯兰堡的家里见到了他。
We sit on a couch and look over some family photos.
我们坐在沙发上，看着一些家庭照片。
There's a few photos they sent me after-- that's my wife.
他们后来发给我几张照片——那是我妻子。
That's my middle daughter and this is my son, the youngest one.
那是我的二女儿，这是我最小的儿子。
They're all sitting in a toy race car at a Chuck E.
他们都坐在 Chuck E 的一辆玩具赛车里。
Cheese restaurant.
奶酪餐厅。
While Huram and I talk, a guy named Wassim walks in.
当我和胡拉姆谈话时，一个名叫瓦西姆的人走了进来。
He's big and adorable.
他又大又可爱。
You could put him on a teen pinup poster.
你可以把他放在青少年海报上。
Wassim and Huram met in jail.
瓦西姆和胡拉姆在监狱里相识。
Wassim is also on the ACLU list of appealing, mediagenic people kicked out of the United States.
瓦西姆也在美国公民自由联盟 (ACLU) 的被驱逐出美国的有吸引力的媒体人士名单上。
And he also has an ironic looking-out-the-jail-window story.
他还有一个讽刺的往监狱窗外看的故事。
And especially, I remember those little ducks.
我尤其记得那些小鸭子。
I saw six or seven little-- ducklings, right?
我看到六七只小鸭子，对吗？
Ducklings, and their mother duck.
小鸭子和它们的鸭妈妈。
And I was like, aha, they are better than me right now.
我当时想，啊哈，他们现在比我更好。
But here's the thing.
但事情是这样的。
Talking to these guys, it seems like what they went through is no worse than the sorts of hassles immigrants in America have gone through with the INS for decades.
与这些人交谈，他们所经历的事情似乎并不比美国移民几十年来在移民局所经历的麻烦更糟糕。
Their stories don't explain the secrecy.
他们的故事并没有解释这个秘密。
In some ways, the two were treated well.
从某些方面来说，两人都受到了很好的对待。
Their families knew where they were.
他们的家人知道他们在哪里。
They got to make phone calls.
他们得打电话。
Huram says the people in jail weren't mean or abusive.
胡拉姆说监狱里的人并不卑鄙或辱骂。
In the end, he was detained for two months, Wassim for one.
最终，他被拘留了两个月，瓦西姆被拘留了一个月。
And did they get a fair hearing?
他们得到了公平的听证会吗？
Here, things get a little fuzzy.
在这里，事情变得有点模糊。
The Justice Department will tell you how all detainees are given lists of lawyers who will take their cases pro bono.
司法部将告诉您如何向所有被拘留者提供无偿处理案件的律师名单。
And they all have access to law libraries and courts.
他们都可以使用法律图书馆和法院。
And that's all true, except in practice, both men-- and a lot of these guys-- never got to see a judge.
这都是事实，除了在实践中，这两个人——以及其中很多人——从来没有见过法官。
Huram and Wassim are what the INS calls absconders, people who according to its records had been sent letters ordering them to leave the country.
胡拉姆和瓦西姆被移民局称为潜逃者，根据移民局的记录，他们曾收到命令他们离开该国的信件。
The thing is, Wassim and Huram say they never got those letters.
问题是，瓦西姆和胡拉姆说他们从未收到过这些信。
Wassim's lawyer later told me that these are the sort of cases that can go either way.
瓦西姆的律师后来告诉我，这些案件都是两种情况都可能发生的情况。
To prevent deportation, a lawyer has to convince an immigration judge to issue a stay and reopen the case.
为了防止被驱逐出境，律师必须说服移民法官发出暂缓令并重新审理案件。
Wassim had some things in his favor.
瓦西姆有一些对他有利的事情。
He's married to an American citizen and was working toward a green card, but since September 11, judges seem to be increasingly strict.
他与一名美国公民结婚，正在努力争取绿卡，但自 9 月 11 日以来，法官似乎越来越严格。
I think it's fair to summarize the current US policy like this: if we can deport you, we will, just to be safe.
我认为这样总结美国当前的政策是公平的：如果我们可以驱逐你，我们就会这样做，只是为了安全。
Another guy I met in Pakistan says the INS told him his papers weren't in order and give him a choice-- go to jail, maybe for a year, and fight it, or get on a plane right now.
我在巴基斯坦遇到的另一个人说，移民局告诉他，他的证件不合格，并给了他一个选择——入狱，也许一年，然后与之抗争，或者现在就上飞机。
He chose the plane.
他选择了飞机。
Huram pulls out another picture of his family.
胡拉姆拿出另一张家人的照片。
He and his wife have been lying to his kids, telling them that he's away working, that he had to go overseas.
他和他的妻子一直对他的孩子们撒谎，告诉他们他外出工作了，他必须出国。
For the first two months when I was in jail, we never told our kids that's where I was.
在我入狱的头两个月里，我们从未告诉我们的孩子我就在那里。
But this thing is going to go in a bad impression on our kids.
但这件事会给我们的孩子留下不好的印象。
Now they know I'm in Pakistan, and they ask me, Papa, when are you coming home?
现在他们知道我在巴基斯坦，他们问我，爸爸，你什么时候回家？
Papa, when are you coming home?
爸爸，你什么时候回家？
And I told them I'll be coming home soon.
我告诉他们我很快就会回家。
Huram has been keeping up the lie for eight months now.
胡拉姆已经谎言八个月了。
I get Wassim and Huram to pose for a picture, ask them to make their best sad-immigrant, please-let-me-back-in-the-United-States faces.
我让瓦西姆和胡拉姆摆好姿势拍照，让他们摆出最好的悲伤移民、请让我回到美国的表情。
They try, but can't stop laughing.
他们尝试着，但无法停止笑。
When I try to imagine the government's point of view, I think about the plane that carried these guys back to Pakistan.
当我试图想象政府的观点时，我想到了将这些人带回巴基斯坦的飞机。
Maybe most of the seats were filled with people like them.
也许大多数座位上都坐满了他们这样的人。
But what if, on the last seat in the back row, there was a terrorist.
但如果后排最后一个座位上坐着一名恐怖分子呢？
Was it worth it?
值得吗？
After all, three of the September 11 hijackers were in this country illegally.
毕竟，9 月 11 日劫机者中的三人是非法入境的。
On one of the last days, I go to meet Asma Jahangir, who works with the Pakistan Commission on Human Rights in the United Nations.
最后一天，我去见了阿斯玛·贾汉吉尔，她在联合国巴基斯坦人权委员会工作。
It was some of her people who helped track down the deportees.
她的一些人帮助寻找被驱逐者。
She's a small woman who doesn't joke around much.
她是个不爱开玩笑的小女人。
This is a country where two women a day are killed, some burned alive, for dishonoring their families.
在这个国家，每天都有两名妇女因羞辱家人而被杀害，其中一些被活活烧死。
Where it's illegal to speak ill of Islam.
在那里说伊斯兰教的坏话是违法的。
Where posters have been put up in phone booths, calling for Asma's death.
电话亭里张贴了海报，呼吁处死阿斯玛。
1/5 of Asma's employees are security guards, all carry big guns.
阿斯玛的员工有1/5是保安，都携带大枪。
I pull out a second tape recorder and play her part of the debate I've brought.
我拿出第二台录音机，播放我带来的辩论中她的部分内容。
This is Michael Chertoff, an assistant Attorney General of the United States.
我是迈克尔·切尔托夫，美国助理司法部长。
You heard him briefly in Jack Hitt's story.
你在杰克·希特的故事中简短地听到过他。
He makes a pretty powerful argument.
他提出了一个非常有力的论点。
She stares at the tape while it plays.
当磁带播放时，她盯着磁带。
There's the old expression in the context of the traditional criminal law that it's better that 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person should be imprisoned.
传统刑法中有句老话：宁可十个有罪之人获释，也好过一个无辜者入狱。
And that's simply maybe an aphoristic way of making the point that we want to have the risk of error fall in favor of the one innocent person, even if it means that by mistake 10 guilty people don't get punished.
这可能只是一种格言方式，表明我们希望让犯错误的风险有利于一个无辜者，即使这意味着由于错误而导致 10 个有罪的人不会受到惩罚。
But what do you do when the question is different?
但是当问题不同时你会怎么做？
Is it worth having 1,000 innocent people killed to avoid having one innocent person suffer?
为了避免一个无辜者受苦而杀害1000个无辜者值得吗？
Suppose you have Mohamed Atta, and you have some information about him.
假设您有穆罕默德·阿塔，并且您有一些关于他的信息。
And you're sitting there and you decide, well, we don't have proof beyond a reasonable doubt yet, so we're going to let him out on bail until we collect it.
你坐在那里，你决定，好吧，我们还没有毫无疑问的证据，所以我们将让他保释，直到我们收集到证据。
And then he drives a plane into the World Trade Center.
然后他驾驶飞机冲入世贸中心。
Would you really be willing to say it is worth the lives of 1,000 innocent people to keep one person from being detained for three or four months?
你真的愿意说，为了一个人不被关押三四个月，值得一千个无辜者的生命吗？
Asma taps a pack of Benson and Hedges on her desk.
阿斯玛轻拍桌上的一包 Benson and Hedges。
Mr. Chertoff, I can send you a tape, but here's her rebuttal.
切尔托夫先生，我可以给你寄一盘磁带，但这是她的反驳。
Your assistant Attorney General is very much sounding like our assistant Attorney Generals.
你们的助理总检察长听起来很像我们的助理总检察长。
He is giving an emotional example, which is not necessarily correct.
他举的是一个感性的例子，但不一定正确。
It's like our Attorney General telling us all the time, we don't know who did it.
就像我们的司法部长一直告诉我们，我们不知道是谁干的。
We just have an idea that it is this place, so you round up 300 people and detain them and don't tell anybody about it.
我们只是知道就是这个地方，所以你围捕了 300 人并拘留了他们，并且不告诉任何人。
And we find that obnoxious.
我们觉得这很令人讨厌。
And I'm surprised that that kind of logic is being given to the people in the US and they are taking it.
我很惊讶美国人民竟然接受了这种逻辑。
Then Asma says something that catches me off-guard.
然后阿斯玛说了一些让我措手不及的话。
She says this bothers her for another reason.
她说这让她烦恼还有另一个原因。
When the US starts having secret trials and secret deportations, when human rights erode in the United States, it becomes harder for her to make the case for human rights here.
当美国开始进行秘密审判和秘密驱逐时，当美国的人权受到侵蚀时，她就更难在这里为人权辩护了。
If democracies don't respect human rights, she says, why should dictatorships?
她说，如果民主国家不尊重人权，独裁国家为何要尊重人权？
The one central question all the deportees had while I was in Pakistan, the one thing that drove everyone crazy, was the question, why investigate me?
当我在巴基斯坦时，所有被驱逐者都面临的一个核心问题是，为什么要调查我？这是让每个人都发疯的一件事。
Why was Wassim pulled over at 7:00 AM?
为什么 Wassim 在早上 7:00 被拦下？
Why did 25 FBI agents appear at Ansar's door?
为什么25名FBI探员出现在Ansar家门口？
Most of the deportees felt the US government had singled them out, but this doesn't seem to be quite true.
大多数被驱逐者认为美国政府单独针对他们，但事实似乎并非如此。
When I got back, I spoke with Muzaffar Chishti, director of the Immigration Policy Institute at NYU's law school.
回来后，我与纽约大学法学院移民政策研究所所长 Muzaffar Chishti 进行了交谈。
His group has been scouring the newspapers, talking to lawyers, to gather data on as many of these secret detentions as possible.
他的团队一直在搜寻报纸，与律师交谈，以尽可能多地收集有关秘密拘留的数据。
They've now got information on some 400 people, about half the number picked up.
他们现在已经掌握了大约 400 人的信息，大约是已接获人数的一半。
You know what a lot of them want to know?
你知道他们很多人想知道什么吗？
A lot of them want to know, why me?
很多人想知道，为什么是我？
Why was I rounded up?
为什么我被围捕了？
Do you have an answer for them?
你有答案给他们吗？
I mean, you've looked at a bunch of cases.
我的意思是，你已经看过很多案例了。
Do you know how it was the INS got onto most of these people?
你知道 INS 是如何找到这些人的吗？
One would have to say that the bulk of these people were arrested on the basis of tips.
不得不说，这些人大部分都是根据举报被捕的。
Wow.
哇。
Muzaffar Chishti Which is, frankly, very unfortunate.
Muzaffar Chishti 坦率地说，这是非常不幸的。
I think what that shows is that people are called on people.
我认为这表明人们是被人们召唤的。
Frequently neighbors called on neighbors.
邻居们经常拜访邻居。
Frequently people who had business disputes with people called on people.
与人发生生意纠纷的人常常会拜访人。
People who had competitive business situations with people called on people.
那些与人们有竞争性商业环境的人会拜访人们。
So it wasn't like the police were running around, and the INS were running around, picking up anyone who looked like they might be a Muslim.
所以，这并不是说警察到处乱跑，移民局到处乱跑，抓捕任何看起来可能是穆斯林的人。
I can't say that was the dominant story.
我不能说这是主要的故事。
I think the dominant story was people were calling in with tips.
我认为主要的故事是人们打电话来提供提示。
So it was us.
所以是我们。
Muzaffar Chishti I think it frequently was us.
Muzaffar Chishti 我认为经常是我们。
And that obviously is another unfortunate tale about how we behave in a crisis and in an emergency like this.
这显然是关于我们在危机和这样的紧急情况下如何行事的另一个不幸的故事。
Why do you think the government was so secretive about this, if what they were doing is not something maybe they're terribly embarrassed about?
如果他们所做的事情可能不是让他们感到非常尴尬的事情，你认为为什么政府对此如此保密？
I really don't know.
我真的不知道。
I mean, I think we--
我的意思是，我认为我们——
I have to say that I felt like what they were hiding was not as bad as it might have been.
我不得不说，我觉得他们隐藏的事情并没有想象的那么糟糕。
Exactly, which is all the more reason to say that there was probably no reason to hide, except government agencies' arrogance that they don't have to reveal things.
确实如此，这更有理由说，除了政府机构傲慢地认为他们不必透露事情之外，可能没有理由隐藏。
Here's what I've been thinking.
这就是我一直在想的。
Secrecy is like a shot of Novocaine.
保密就像一针努佛卡因。
It keeps you from having to feel anything.
它让你不必去感受任何东西。
It blurs the chain of responsibility.
它模糊了责任链。
We all want to believe our government is doing a fair job, that it's balancing the needs of security and fairness.
我们都希望相信我们的政府正在做公平的工作，它正在平衡安全和公平的需求。
We want to believe that someone from another country who's determined enough can make a life here, that those words engraved by the Statue of Liberty actually mean something.
我们要相信，来自另一个国家的人只要有足够的决心，就能在这里生活，自由女神像上刻的那些话确实有意义。
The secrecy saves us from having to think about it.
保密性使我们不必思考它。
It keeps the names and stories inked out.
它保留了名字和故事。
David Kestenbaum is filling in as a producer on our show for a few months.
大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 (David Kestenbaum) 将在我们的节目中担任制片人几个月。
Act Three, Secret Wiretaps From a Secret Court.
第三幕，秘密法庭的秘密窃听。
We've had a secret court here in the United States since way before 9/11.
早在 9/11 之前，我们就在美国设立了一个秘密法庭。
It's called a FISA court.
它被称为 FISA 法庭。
FISA stands for Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.
FISA 代表外国情报监视法。
It's a whole court system designed to do one thing: authorize wiretaps on people who may be foreign spies or foreign agents of some sort.
这是一个完整的法院系统，旨在做一件事：授权对可能是外国间谍或某种外国特工的人进行窃听。
And for 24 years since the court's creation, it has never said no to the government on any wiretap request, as best as anyone can figure out.
自该法院成立 24 年来，它从未对政府的任何窃听请求拒绝过，这是任何人都能想到的最好结果。
Then this past year, the court finally did say no, for the first time ever possibly, with an opinion that said that Attorney General John Ashcroft and the Bush Justice Department were going way too far.
去年，法院终于可能有史以来第一次拒绝了，并发表意见称司法部长约翰·阿什克罗夫特和布什司法部做得太过分了。
Note that the judges who said this were all conservatives, appointed to their positions by Chief Justice Rehnquist of the Supreme Court.
请注意，说这句话的法官都是保守派，由最高法院首席大法官伦奎斯特任命。
The judges said that the Justice Department was trying to squeak its way around rules on wiretapping citizens that have been in place for decades now.
法官们表示，司法部正试图绕过已经实施了数十年的窃听公民规定。
They cited scores of abuses all done in the name of the War on Terror.
他们列举了数十起以反恐战争名义实施的侵权行为。
The Justice Department, as you might expect, disagreed.
正如你所料，司法部不同意。
A legal fight broke out.
一场法律斗争爆发了。
Blue Chevigny tells the whole story.
蓝色切维尼讲述了整个故事。
Perhaps the most remarkable thing about this fight is that for the first time, it gives us a glimpse inside the FISA court.
也许这场比赛最引人注目的事情是，它让我们第一次得以一睹 FISA 法庭的内部情况。
Up until now, we've known next to nothing.
到目前为止，我们几乎一无所知。
We didn't know where the secret court met.
我们不知道秘密法庭在哪里开会。
We didn't know when.
我们不知道什么时候。
We didn't know which government agencies were responding to wiretaps, or what they did with the information they got from the tapes.
我们不知道哪些政府机构正在对窃听做出反应，也不知道他们如何处理从录音带中获得的信息。
We didn't know who was getting tapped or exactly why.
我们不知道谁被窃听，也不知道到底为什么。
We did know, because it was part of the original law creating the court, that there were seven judges on the court at any time.
我们确实知道，因为这是创建法院的原始法律的一部分，所以法庭上任何时候都有七名法官。
They served a seven-year term and they were regular district court judges from around the country.
他们的任期为七年，是全国各地地方法院的常任法官。
This is Ann Beeson, a lawyer at the ACLU and one of the people who's tried over the years to figure out what's going on inside FISA.
我是安·比森 (Ann Beeson)，美国公民自由联盟 (ACLU) 的一名律师，也是多年来一直试图弄清楚 FISA 内部情况的人之一。
Our understanding is that one judge would randomly get assigned to review an application for a surveillance warrant.
我们的理解是，一名法官将被随机分配审查监视令申请。
And that judge would just look at the warrant-- I don't know whether he changed his robe, probably not-- and decide whether or not it was justified, under the standards in the FISA law.
那位法官只会查看搜查令——我不知道他是否换了长袍，可能没有——然后根据 FISA 法律的标准来决定它是否合理。
Some quick background.
一些快速的背景知识。
The FISA statute itself was a compromise that came out of the last big battle between privacy and national security in the 1960s and '70s.
FISA 法规本身是 20 世纪 60 年代和 70 年代隐私与国家安全之间最后一场大战的妥协结果。
In the aftermath of Watergate and other scandals, a Senate investigation known as the Church Committee found that intelligence agents were routinely spying on and wiretapping people they shouldn't be-- like, famously, Martin Luther King, Jr.-- all in the name of national security.
水门事件和其他丑闻发生后，参议院一项名为“教会委员会”的调查发现，情报人员经常以国家安全的名义监视和窃听不该监视的人，例如著名的马丁·路德·金。
Congress set up the FISA court to make sure that the people that were spied on were actually agents of a foreign power, but in a compromise with the Justice Department, the court was allowed to meet in secret.
国会设立了 FISA 法庭，以确保被监视的人实际上是外国势力的代理人，但在与司法部妥协后，法庭被允许秘密开会。
And also, the standard to get a wiretap through FISA was much lower than in a regular court.
而且，通过 FISA 进行窃听的标准比普通法庭低得多。
Specifically, the Fourth Amendment did not apply.
具体来说，第四修正案不适用。
You didn't need to show probable cause that a crime was being committed before you could do FISA surveillance.
在进行 FISA 监视之前，您无需证明犯罪发生的可能原因。
The USA PATRIOT Act, which was passed quickly and mostly without opposition through Congress after September 11, changed everything.
《美国爱国者法案》在 9 月 11 日后迅速获得国会通过，而且基本没有遭到反对，改变了一切。
It altered the language in the FISA act by just one word, a familiar little word we use every day-- the.
它仅仅改变了 FISA 法案中的一个词，一个我们每天使用的熟悉的小词——the。
Before, FISA had stated that foreign intelligence gathering had to be the purpose of the surveillance.
此前，FISA曾表示监视的目的必须是收集外国情报。
And now, it only had to be a significant purpose of it.
现在，它只需要成为它的一个重要目的即可。
What this wording change meant varied depending on who you talked to, but a lot of people feared that it gave the government too much spying power.
这种措辞变化的含义因谈话对象而异，但很多人担心这赋予了政府太多的间谍权力。
Because of the the USA PATRIOT Act, they can listen in.
由于美国爱国者法案，他们可以监听。
If they really want you, they can just wiretap you without any probable cause that a crime has been committed.
如果他们真的想要你，他们可以窃听你，而无需任何可能的犯罪理由。
This is Congressman Bobby Scott, a Democrat from Virginia.
我是国会议员鲍比·斯科特，来自弗吉尼亚州的民主党人。
He sits on the House Judiciary Committee and opposed the passage of the USA PATRIOT Act.
他是众议院司法委员会成员，反对《美国爱国者法案》的通过。
Now, I had an amendment, when it was being considered, that simply said that when the target stops using the phone, you have to stop listening.
现在，我在考虑时有一个修正案，只是说当目标停止使用电话时，你必须停止监听。
So if somebody else is using the phone, you can't just listen in on that conversation.
因此，如果其他人正在使用电话，您就无法监听该对话。
My amendment was defeated, which means that if they know you're volunteering in the Democratic National Headquarters, they can drop a bug there and keep listening.
我的修正案被否决了，这意味着如果他们知道你在民主党全国总部做志愿者，他们可以在那里留下一个 bug 并继续倾听。
But law-abiding citizens don't expect their meetings to be infiltrated.
但守法公民并不认为他们的会议会被渗透。
They don't expect their phone calls to be wiretapped.
他们不希望自己的电话被窃听。
The fact that the amendment was defeated should alert people that there's more to this than fighting terrorism.
该修正案被否决的事实应该提醒人们，这不仅仅是打击恐怖主义。
Because the bill in the USA PATRIOT Act is not limited to terrorism.
因为美国爱国者法案中的法案并不局限于恐怖主义。
Congressman Scott and others were afraid that the Justice Department would use the FISA court to get these easier secret FISA wiretaps and use them to spy on people who aren't terrorists or spies.
国会议员斯科特和其他人担心司法部会利用 FISA 法庭来获得这些更容易的秘密 FISA 窃听，并用它们来监视不是恐怖分子或间谍的人。
But because none of their proceedings were public, nobody was sure how the FISA court was reading the word change.
但由于他们的诉讼程序都不是公开的，没有人知道 FISA 法院如何解读“变更”一词。
In August, a few members of Congress, most vocally Senator Patrick Leahy of Vermont, Chairman of the Senate's Committee on the Judiciary, decided to try to find out.
八月份，一些国会议员，其中最直言不讳的是参议院司法委员会主席、佛蒙特州参议员帕特里克·莱希（Patrick Leahy）决定尝试找出答案。
He and other members of Congress wrote a letter to the FISA court, asking them for their take on the word change.
他和其他国会议员写了一封信给 FISA 法院，询问他们对这个词的改变的看法。
And they got a reply.
他们得到了答复。
Ann Beeson of the ACLU tells the story.
美国公民自由联盟的安·比森讲述了这个故事。
The court said, oh, we're so glad you asked.
法庭说，哦，我们很高兴你提出这个问题。
It turns out that we issued a very important decision on precisely this point, of what the meaning of the PATRIOT Act is back in May.
事实证明，我们早在五月份就针对这一点，即《爱国者法案》的含义，做出了一项非常重要的决定。
And now we've decided, now that you've asked us, that we should probably made that public, because it is really quite an important decision.
现在我们已经决定，既然你问了我们，我们也许应该公开这一点，因为这确实是一个非常重要的决定。
And in fact, we denied the government's request for very broad new powers based on new PATRIOT Act language.
事实上，我们拒绝了政府根据新的爱国者法案语言授予非常广泛的新权力的要求。
What the senators had uncovered was the biggest courtroom drama you never heard of.
参议员们揭露的是你从未听说过的最大的法庭戏剧。
It went like this.
事情是这样的。
Attorney General John Ashcroft had interpreted the USA PATRIOT Act language as broadly as possible.
司法部长约翰·阿什克罗夫特尽可能广泛地解释了《美国爱国者法案》的措辞。
That is, he said that now, under the new wording, the FISA court should authorize wiretaps in cases where criminal investigation was the main purpose, not national security.
也就是说，他说，现在，根据新的措辞，外国情报监视法案法院应该授权在刑事调查是主要目的而不是国家安全的案件中进行窃听。
But the FISA court judges disagreed with his interpretation of the PATRIOT Act, and for the first time in history issued an opinion which said no.
但 FISA 法院法官不同意他对《爱国者法案》的解释，并在历史上首次发表了“不”的意见。
And the opinion itself is a remarkable document.
该意见本身就是一份非凡的文件。
Never before has there been a public opinion of the FISA court, ever.
此前从未有过公众对 FISA 法院的意见。
And the opinion documents a whole series of events leading up to it, which nobody knew anything about.
该意见记录了导致这一事件的一系列事件，但没有人对此一无所知。
They said, we think it's quite relevant to recite a history of abuses even before the government got new powers.
他们说，我们认为，即使在政府获得新权力之前，背诵滥用权力的历史也是非常有意义的。
In other words, even before it got this new power, it was doing things improperly.
换句话说，在它获得新的力量之前，它就已经在做一些不正当的事情了。
And we have documented that, and we have reprimanded some FBI officers, and in some cases even refused to let an FBI officer ever appear before the FISA court again because they were so distressed at this abuse of the power.
我们已经记录了这一点，并且谴责了一些 FBI 官员，在某些情况下甚至拒绝让 FBI 官员再次出庭 FISA 法庭，因为他们对这种滥用权力的行为感到非常痛苦。
The court cites 75 cases of abuse of the system.
法院列举了 75 起滥用该系统的案例。
And to understand those abuses, remember that the original purpose of the FISA court was to prevent scenarios like this one.
要了解这些滥用行为，请记住 FISA 法院的最初目的是为了防止出现此类情况。
Let's say a criminal investigator thinks a guy is involved in drug activity, and he wants to do a wiretap on the guy, but he doesn't have enough evidence under the fourth amendment to do it through the criminal courts.
假设一名刑事调查员认为某人参与毒品活动，他想对该人进行窃听，但根据第四修正案，他没有足够的证据来通过刑事法庭进行窃听。
So the criminal division guy calls up a friend, somebody in intelligence-- in the FBI for example-- and says, this guy is up to something and he might have ties to a foreign country anyway.
因此，刑事部门的人员打电话给一位朋友，一位情报部门的人员（例如联邦调查局的人员）并说，这个人在图谋不轨，无论如何他可能与外国有联系。
Do me a favor and go to the FISA court and get them to authorize a wiretap.
帮我一个忙，去 FISA 法庭，让他们授权窃听。
To guard against that scenario, for 20 years the FISA court had put up what they called a wall.
为了防止这种情况的发生，FISA 法庭在 20 年来一直筑起他们所谓的隔离墙。
Regular criminal investigators and prosecutors couldn't go to foreign intelligence investigators and tell them who to tap.
常规刑事调查人员和检察官无法去找外国情报调查人员并告诉他们该监听谁。
The 75 cases of abuse that the FISA court cited in its ruling were all instances where government officials had tried to breach that wall.
FISA 法院在裁决中引用的 75 起滥用职权案件都是政府官员试图突破这堵墙的例子。
So the FISA court ruled against the Justice Department, and on the same day in August that they made their ruling public, they revealed something else.
因此，FISA 法院做出了对司法部不利的裁决，并在 8 月公开裁决的同一天，他们透露了其他内容。
John Ashcroft and the Justice Department had not accepted the FISA court's ruling.
约翰·阿什克罗夫特 (John Ashcroft) 和司法部没有接受 FISA 法院的裁决。
There was an appeals process in the FISA statute, written in, in case of a major disagreement like this.
FISA 法规中有一个上诉程序，以防出现此类重大分歧。
But remember, there had never been a major disagreement before.
但请记住，之前从未出现过重大分歧。
The FISA court had never turned down a Justice Department request before.
FISA 法院此前从未拒绝过司法部的请求。
And so, for the first time ever, the FISA appeals court met.
因此，FISA 上诉法院有史以来第一次开庭。
It's made up of three judges also convening in secret.
它由三名法官组成，也是秘密召集的。
Here's Ann Beeson.
这是安·比森的报道。
Again, a remarkable situation.
这又是一个了不起的情况。
Because here we have a decision that's on appeal to a secret court that, whether it does so directly or not, clearly involves the constitutionality of a major federal statute, giving the government new powers to spy on people all over the United States.
因为我们有一项正在向秘密法院上诉的决定，无论是否直接这样做，都显然涉及一项主要联邦法规的合宪性，赋予政府监视美国各地人民的新权力。
And there's no one representing the side of the Constitution, because the only actual party in the proceeding and in the case is the federal government.
而且没有人代表宪法一方，因为诉讼和案件中唯一实际的一方是联邦政府。
For that reason, of course, the ACLU and a number of other groups immediately got together and knew we had to file some kind of brief.
当然，出于这个原因，美国公民自由联盟和其他一些团体立即聚集在一起，知道我们必须提交某种简报。
Sounds simple enough.
听起来很简单。
But consider for a second, this is a court whose operations are completely secret as a matter of national security, a court that no outside lawyer has ever filed a brief with.
但想一想，这个法庭的运作出于国家安全的考虑是完全秘密的，没有任何外部律师向这个法庭提交过案情陈述。
Normally, in any other case, there are actually rules and very specific deadlines for when you can file this kind of a brief.
通常，在任何其他情况下，对于何时可以提交此类简报，实际上都有规则和非常具体的截止日期。
The court's address and the clerk's name and everything is right there on the internet.
法院的地址、书记员的姓名以及一切都在互联网上。
In this case, nobody knows where it physically exists, even.
在这种情况下，甚至没有人知道它的实际存在位置。
Nobody knew.
没有人知道。
And therefore we had to go take this radical step of actually calling one of the judges directly, which is normally not even really proper, for lawyers to talk to judges directly.
因此，我们必须采取这一激进的步骤，直接打电话给一位法官，这通常是不合适的，因为律师可以直接与法官交谈。
So we called.
所以我们打电话了。
And it wasn't myself, actually, it was another colleague here at the ACLU.
事实上，这不是我自己，而是美国公民自由联盟的另一位同事。
And he said, we're the ACLU and we know you're one of these FISA judges, and we want to file a brief.
他说，我们是 ACLU，我们知道你是 FISA 法官之一，我们想提交一份简报。
What do we do?
我们该怎么办？
And the judge said, I can't talk to you about this at all.
法官说，我根本不能和你谈论这件事。
He was sympathetic to the fact that we needed to communicate with someone.
他很同情我们需要与某人沟通这一事实。
But he couldn't do it himself, and so he basically just got off the phone.
但他自己做不到，所以他基本上就挂断了电话。
About a week into this process, we learn that the court had set a secret hearing to hear the government's argument in the case.
大约一周后，我们得知法院已安排秘密听证会来听取政府在此案中的论点。
And we learned of it-- I think I remember it being on a Monday.
我们得知了这一消息——我想我记得那是在星期一。
The hearing was done, and the only oral argument the court heard was from the government.
听证会结束了，法庭听到的唯一口头辩论来自政府。
No one on the other side.
另一边没有人。
Then the day after the secret hearing, Ann got a call from a woman identifying herself as a designated clerk of the FISA court, telling her the case wasn't over, giving her permission to submit the ACLU brief, and giving her an address for the court in a Justice Department building.
秘密听证会后的第二天，安接到一名自称 FISA 法院指定书记员的女士的电话，告诉她案件尚未结束，允许她提交美国公民自由联盟的案情摘要，并给了她位于司法部大楼的法院地址。
Ann sent in their brief, and the court sent back an official letter, an order, saying they'd accepted it.
安提交了案情摘要，法院发回了一封正式信函，即一份命令，表示他们已接受。
She fished the order out of a stack of papers on her desk and showed it to me.
她从桌上的一叠文件中找出订单给我看。
So here's the order.
所以这是命令。
And off to the left, it says, Number 02-001, showing that this is the first case that the FISA court of review has ever heard before.
左边写着编号 02-001，表明这是 FISA 复审法院此前审理的第一起案件。
And I had this image of this court having never really issued public orders before, and of the judges directing their secretary to create a new template for the United States Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review, for the first time ever, because they'd never issued an order.
我的印象是，这个法院以前从未真正发布过公共命令，法官们指示他们的秘书为美国外国情报监视审查法院创建一个新模板，这是有史以来第一次，因为他们从未发布过命令。
And it bears some resemblance to normal court orders.
它与正常的法庭命令有些相似。
Normally, at the very top of a court order it would say the name of the court, and have their address and phone number and contact information.
通常，法院命令的最顶部会注明法院的名称，并包含其地址、电话号码和联系信息。
This order just says at the top, United States Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review.
这个命令只是说最高层是美国外国情报监视审查法院。
And I was really amused, because whoever produced this order put the name of the court in this very gothic font.
我真的很有趣，因为无论是谁制作了这份命令，都用这种非常哥特式的字体写了法院的名字。
So it just looks like a parody of a secret court to me.
所以对我来说，这看起来就像是对秘密法庭的模仿。
Two months went by.
两个月过去了。
Then in November, on the 18th, the Court of Appeals issued its decision.
然后在11月18日，上诉法院发布了判决。
It overturned the lower court and sided with the Justice Department's interpretation of the USA PATRIOT Act.
它推翻了下级法院，并支持司法部对《美国爱国者法案》的解释。
The ACLU had, in essence, lost the case.
从本质上讲，美国公民自由联盟已经输掉了官司。
The court at least engaged in an analysis about whether or not the law was unconstitutional.
法院至少对该法律是否违宪进行了分析。
But they did so in really quite a cursory way.
但他们的做法确实非常草率。
And they only dealt really superficially with the argument that we made in our brief.
他们只是非常肤浅地处理了我们在简报中提出的论点。
The most remarkable thing about the decision is, after they engage in this superficial analysis of how, oh, it's really not a problem that this doesn't meet the requirements of the fourth amendment, the decision actually says at the very end, that they realize the question is really hard and that it's probably true that FISA doesn't meet the standards of the fourth amendment.
该决定最值得注意的事情是，在他们进行了肤浅的分析之后，哦，这不符合第四修正案的要求确实不是问题，该决定实际上在最后说，他们意识到这个问题真的很难，而且 FISA 不符合第四修正案的标准可能是真的。
But it comes close enough, the court says.
但法院表示，这已经足够接近了。
And it's just remarkable, this notion that it's OK for the government to just be close enough to the Constitution, but they don't actually have to comply with it.
值得注意的是，政府只要足够接近宪法就可以，但他们实际上不必遵守它。
Yeah, I do.
是的，我愿意。
Blue Chevigny Can you actually read it?
Blue Chevigny 你真的能读懂吗？
Yeah.
是的。
It says, "We think the procedures and government showings required under FISA, if they do not meet the minimum Fourth Amendment warrant standards, certainly come close." And that's all they say.
它说，“我们认为，外国情报监视法案所要求的程序和政府展示，如果不符合第四修正案的最低保证标准，肯定会接近。”他们就是这么说的。
The court of review's action revolutionizes our ability to investigate terrorists and prosecute terrorist acts.
复审法院的行动彻底改变了我们调查恐怖分子和起诉恐怖行为的能力。
Attorney General John Ashcroft, of course, sees things differently.
当然，司法部长约翰·阿什克罗夫特(John Ashcroft)有不同的看法。
This is from a press conference on the day of the appeals court decision.
这是上诉法院判决当天的新闻发布会的内容。
This will greatly enhance our ability to put pieces together that different agencies have.
这将极大地增强我们将不同机构所拥有的碎片整合在一起的能力。
I believe this is a giant step forward.
我相信这是向前迈出的一大步。
In his press conference, he didn't say much about the Constitutional questions raised by the decision, though he was asked.
在新闻发布会上，尽管有人问他，但他并没有过多谈论该决定提出的宪法问题。
We wanted to hear more of the Justice Department's reasoning, so we decided to give them a call.
我们想听听司法部的更多推理，所以我们决定给他们打电话。
Obviously, you want to do this to put on the radio, right?
显然，您想这样做是为了在广播中播放，对吧？
Well, yeah.
嗯，是的。
Woman OK.
女人好吧。
Let me check to see if I might--
让我检查一下我是否可以——
This proved a lot more difficult than you'd think.
事实证明这比你想象的要困难得多。
--and I'm sorry, I should have done this for you before, but I might be better off--
——对不起，我之前就应该为你做这件事，但我可能会更好——
It took two months of continuous phone calls.
就这样连续打电话了两个月。
Finally an interview was set up with David Kris, a lawyer who worked on the Justice Department's brief before the FISA appeals court.
最后，我们安排了对大卫·克里斯 (David Kris) 的采访，他是一名律师，曾在《外国情报监视法案》上诉法院上负责司法部的案情陈述。
We asked about the possibility that criminal investigators will start to label everyday Americans as threats to national security just to get a wiretap.
我们询问刑事调查人员是否有可能开始将普通美国人标记为对国家安全的威胁，只是为了进行窃听。
And here's how he explained that it shouldn't be a big concern.
他是这样解释的：这不应该是一个大问题。
This appeal does not change who may be a target of FISA searches or surveillance.
此上诉不会改变谁可能成为 FISA 搜查或监视的目标。
That is the same now as it was before, and if you are not a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power, you may not be targeted under FISA.
现在和以前一样，如果您不是外国势力或外国势力的代理人，您可能不会成为 FISA 的目标。
David Kris made this point several times.
大卫·克里斯多次强调过这一点。
He slowed down when he said it.
他说这话的时候放慢了速度。
What has changed, he said, is something different, that the intelligence side and the criminal side can share information about cases and potential targets more freely.
他说，变化是不同的，情报方面和犯罪方面可以更自由地共享有关案件和潜在目标的信息。
In other words, the wall is down.
换句话说，墙已经倒塌了。
Which is fine if you trust the government will do the right thing with this power, or dangerous if you don't.
如果你相信政府会利用这种权力做正确的事，这很好，但如果你不相信，那就危险了。
The ACLU has tried to figure out if there's any way to appeal the decision, to the Supreme Court, for example.
美国公民自由联盟试图弄清楚是否有任何方式对该决定提出上诉，例如向最高法院提出上诉。
It's a constitutional question at stake, after all But they can only bring a case if they find someone who thinks they were unfairly wiretapped under FISA, and there's not much chance of that, since virtually everyone tapped under FISA will never know they were.
毕竟，这是一个关键的宪法问题。但只有当他们发现有人认为他们在 FISA 下受到不公平窃听时，他们才能提起诉讼，而这种可能性不大，因为几乎每个在 FISA 下被窃听的人都不会知道他们被不公平地窃听。
Well, our program was produced today by Alex Blumberg and myself with Diane Cook, Wendy Dorr, Dave Kestenbaum, and Starlee Kine.
好吧，我们今天的节目是由 Alex Blumberg 和我本人以及 Diane Cook、Wendy Dorr、Dave Kestenbaum 和 Starlee Kine 制作的。
Elizabeth Meister runs our website.
伊丽莎白·梅斯特 (Elizabeth Meister) 负责运营我们的网站。
Production help from Todd Bachmann and Jane Golombisky.
托德·巴赫曼 (Todd Bachmann) 和简·戈隆比斯基 (Jane Golombisky) 为制作提供帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Music help from consigliere Sarah Vowell.
[致谢] 顾问莎拉·沃威尔 (Sarah Vowell) 的音乐帮助。
If you'd like to buy a cassette of this or any of our programs, visit our website, where you can get tapes or you can also listen to our programs for free, www.thisamericanlife.org.
如果您想购买本节目或我们任何节目的磁带，请访问我们的网站，您可以在其中获取磁带，也可以免费收听我们的节目：www.thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
Funding for our show comes from the listeners of WBEZ Chicago.
我们的节目的资金来自 WBEZ 芝加哥的听众。
WBEZ management oversight by Torey Malatia, who keeps calling me at 3:00 in the morning to say:
WBEZ 管理由 Torey Malatia 负责监督，他一直在凌晨 3:00 打电话给我说：
We're the ACLU and we know you're one of these FISA judges, and we want to file a brief.
我们是 ACLU，我们知道您是 FISA 法官之一，我们想提交一份简报。
What do we do?
我们该怎么办？
I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life.
我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。