217: Give It to Them - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #217 | August 2, 2002 217: Give It to Them Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 217 集 | 2002 年 8 月 2 日 217：把它送给他们 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass Nothing prepares you for what the border between Israel and the West Bank can look like.
序言 Ira Glass 没有任何东西能让你对以色列和约旦河西岸之间的边界是什么样子做好准备。
In the town of [UNINTELLIGIBLE] on the Israeli side, there's a bedroom community that looks like it was airlifted from Scottsdale, Arizona.
在以色列一侧的[无法辨认]镇，有一个卧室社区，看起来像是从亚利桑那州斯科茨代尔空运来的。
Rows of houses with white stucco walls and red roofs and yards where you could see plastic slides and other kids' toys.
一排排的房子有白色的灰泥墙和红色的屋顶，还有院子，在那里你可以看到塑料滑梯和其他儿童玩具。
And then a perfectly paved street, and then on the other side of the street, a wire fence and some no man's land, then an electrified fence, then more no man's land, and then a tall, concrete wall with sentry posts and armed Israeli soldiers.
然后是一条铺得完美的街道，然后在街道的另一边，有铁丝网和一些无人区，然后是电气化围栏，然后是更多的无人区，然后是一堵高高的混凝土墙，上面有岗哨和武装的以色列士兵。
An 18 year old who lives on the street told me that even here, where she sees the barricades that protect her every day, she tries to ignore what's on the other side.
一位住在街上的 18 岁女孩告诉我，即使在这里，她每天都能看到路障保护她，她也试图忽略另一边的情况。
I don't think I think about it very much of it.
我想我并没有想太多。
When I hear things in the news, yeah, it worries me and all that.
当我在新闻中听到一些事情时，是的，这让我很担心。
But I live my life.
但我过我的生活。
What's the point of thinking about it?
想这个有什么意义呢？
There's a bumper sticker a Tel Aviv advertising writer made up a few months after the current wave of violence began in Israel.
以色列当前的暴力浪潮开始几个月后，特拉维夫的广告撰稿人制作了一张保险杠贴纸。
It says [SPEAKING HEBREW].
上面写着[说希伯来语]。
Ira Glass Which has the same sad double meaning in Hebrew that it does in English.
Ira Glass 在希伯来语中与英语中具有相同的悲伤双重含义。
Roughly, give it to them, and there will be peace in Israel.
粗略地给他们，以色列就会有和平。
That is, give up the Territories to the Palestinians and there will be peace in Israel.
也就是说，将领土交给巴勒斯坦人，以色列就会实现和平。
And then also--
然后还有——
The other meaning, give them back is like, show them that we're the best, so we're stronger.
另一个意思是，给他们回报，让他们知道我们是最好的，所以我们更强大。
Like, we'll give it to them.
就像，我们会把它给他们。
Advertiser Well, yes.
广告商 嗯，是的。
Hit them back.
反击他们。
That's a complete contradiction.
这完全是矛盾的。
Either you give it back or you hit them back.
要么你还给他们，要么你反击他们。
It is, it is.
是的，是的。
But we suffer from some kind of schizophrenia, I think, nowadays.
但我认为，现在我们都患有某种精神分裂症。
And it's not just Israelis who are feeling schizophrenic nowadays.
如今，不仅仅是以色列人感到精神分裂。
Sitting in a cafe in Ramallah, Rula Hamadani goes back and forth, trying to make sense of what to feel about the collapse of the peace process.
鲁拉·哈马达尼 (Rula Hamadani) 坐在拉马拉的一家咖啡馆里来回走动，试图弄清楚对和平进程的崩溃有何感受。
I never thought Oslo was right.
我从来不认为奥斯陆是对的。
And then I decided, like, come on, Rula, it's a chance to dream.
然后我决定，来吧，鲁拉，这是一个实现梦想的机会。
It's not good enough, but it might work.
这还不够好，但可能有用。
When I was younger, I never met an Israeli in my life.
当我年轻的时候，我一生中从未见过以色列人。
I never had an Israeli friend.
我从来没有以色列朋友。
But it's between the two intifadas, like, I had to leave Israeli friends.
但这是在两次起义之间，就像，我不得不离开以色列朋友。
I don't know.
我不知道。
The peace process gave us something, but it seems the peace process also took back everything.
和平进程给了我们一些东西，但和平进程似乎也夺回了一切。
Took back the friends, took back, like, the good days they had together.
夺回了朋友，夺回了他们在一起度过的美好时光。
And it's gone.
它消失了。
Tom Segev, an Israeli journalist and historian, says people are confused because for nearly a decade, Israelis, at least, thought there would be peace.
以色列记者兼历史学家汤姆·塞格夫表示，人们感到困惑，因为至少近十年来，以色列人一直认为会有和平。
Israelis thought this more than Palestinians.
以色列人比巴勒斯坦人更重视这一点。
And then peace evaporated.
然后和平就消失了。
And their confusion even shows up in the polls.
他们的困惑甚至体现在民意调查中。
Their entries are completely contradictory.
他们的条目完全矛盾。
You ask people, do you support the establishment of a Palestinian state?
你问人家，你支持建立巴勒斯坦国吗？
Yes, I do.
是的，我愿意。
Do you support the reoccupation of the West Bank?
您支持重新占领西岸吗？
Yes, I do.
是的，我愿意。
Do you support the dismantlement of the settlements?
你支持拆除定居点吗？
Yes, I do that support that also.
是的，我也支持这一点。
So this is very strange situation where Israel doesn't know what to do.
所以这是非常奇怪的情况，以色列不知道该怎么办。
We are doing things which don't make much sense.
我们正在做一些没有多大意义的事情。
We let a 16 year old suicide bomber dictate the whole agenda of the Middle East.
我们让一名 16 岁的自杀式炸弹袭击者主导了中东的整个议程。
He blows himself up in Tel Aviv, we go and occupy Ramallah.
他在特拉维夫引爆了自己，我们去占领拉马拉。
Is it good for us to occupy Ramallah?
占领拉马拉对我们有好处吗？
It's probably not.
可能不是。
But we do it, because what else should we do?
但我们这样做了，因为我们还应该做什么？
Well, from WBEZ Chicago and Public Radio International, it's This American Life.
嗯，来自芝加哥 WBEZ 和国际公共广播电台，这就是《美国生活》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today on our program, stories from Israel and the West Bank.
今天我们的节目讲述来自以色列和约旦河西岸的故事。
We all hear the ongoing, never-ending news reports from the region, which just seem to get worse and worse, and we wanted to take a moment and step back.
我们都听到该地区持续不断的新闻报道，情况似乎变得越来越糟，我们想花点时间后退一步。
It's been nearly two years since the peace process collapsed-- two years in which each side has done terrible things together.
和平进程崩溃已经过去近两年了——在这两年里，双方都共同做了可怕的事情。
And we wanted to understand what that's done to people, and if anybody's feeling any hope.
我们想了解这对人们造成了什么影响，以及是否有人感到有希望。
I was in Israel with two of our regular contributors, Nancy Updike and Adam Davidson.
我和我们的两位定期撰稿人南希·厄普代克和亚当·戴维森一起在以色列。
Nancy did our stories from the West Bank.
南希在约旦河西岸报道了我们的故事。
Adam and I traveled around Israel.
亚当和我环游以色列。
And we begin our program with Nancy.
我们和南希一起开始我们的计划。
Act One.
第一幕。
Life Indoors.
室内生活。
Here's Nancy's first report.
这是南希的第一份报告。
Curfew is how Palestinians live now.
宵禁是巴勒斯坦人现在的生活方式。
The Israeli army is in the streets, and if you go outside, day or night, you can be shot.
以色列军队在街上，如果你出去，无论白天还是晚上，你都可能被枪杀。
Indoors it's just boring, and debilitating in a way I hadn't expected.
室内很无聊，而且以一种我意想不到的方式让人衰弱。
In the middle of a Tuesday afternoon in Ramallah, I needed to get off the street, and ended up at a TV studio.
在拉马拉的一个周二下午，我需要离开街道，最终来到了一家电视演播室。
There were mattresses all over the floor, maybe 10 people living there.
地板上到处都是床垫，大概有10个人住在那里。
Because of curfew, they couldn't get home.
由于宵禁，他们无法回家。
We were all stuck.
我们都被困住了。
Everyone sat around in the kitchen smoking, and then at some point, one of the guys asked me, "You want to watch Riverdance?" I wasn't sure I'd heard right.
每个人都坐在厨房里抽烟，然后在某个时候，其中一个人问我，“你想看大河之舞吗？”我不确定我没听错。
--the land.
——土地。
They carry us over the ocean in dance and song.
他们用舞蹈和歌声带着我们跨越海洋。
For half an hour, we watched Riverdance.
我们花了半个小时看了《大河之舞》。
Outside, the streets were empty and silent.
外面的街道空无一人，一片寂静。
No cars, no people.
没有车，没有人。
It looked like the carcass of a city.
它看起来就像一座城市的残骸。
I'd come into Ramallah that morning from Jerusalem, a normal, bustling city, and it was like leaving earth and stepping onto a planet where gravity was working differently.
那天早上，我从耶路撒冷来到拉马拉，这是一座正常而熙熙攘攘的城市，就像离开地球，踏上一个重力作用不同的星球一样。
Everyone was moving very slowly.
每个人的动作都非常缓慢。
I could feel my energy and purposefulness draining out of me.
我能感觉到我的能量和目标正在从我身上流失。
There is nowhere to go and no way to get there.
无处可去，也没有办法到达那里。
Qasem Ali runs the television production company where I ended up.
卡塞姆·阿里经营着一家电视制作公司，我最终就职于该公司。
For ten days I have been in these offices.
我在这些办公室待了十天。
Actually doing nothing.
其实什么也不做。
Watching television.
看电视。
And even the newspaper, you don't get it.
甚至报纸，你也看不到。
A little bit degrading.
有点贬义。
Myself, I'm, just like now, I'm feeling [?
我自己，就像现在一样，我感觉[？
withdrawing.
撤回。
?] Spending so much time in the room by myself, doing nothing.
？] 自己花了很多时间在房间里，什么也不做。
You are not in the mood even to read.
你连读书的心情都没有。
You don't want to talk to people.
你不想和人说话。
And you don't want, you know, to socialize.
你知道，你不想社交。
Qasem smoked Camel after Camel as we talked.
当我们谈话时，卡西姆抽着骆驼牌的骆驼牌香烟。
He was handsome, with dark hair and a beard going gray.
他很英俊，有一头深色的头发和灰色的胡须。
He leaned his head on his hand as he talked.
说话时，他把头靠在手上。
He seemed exhausted.
他看上去很疲惫。
You know, first day, second day, you can adapt and do something.
你知道，第一天、第二天，你可以适应并做一些事情。
But then, you feel like your life is worthless, and your time is worthless.
但后来，你觉得你的生命毫无价值，你的时间也毫无价值。
And you get to the point, like, you started hating the life.
然后你就开始讨厌生活了。
What do you want to do for tomorrrow, or after tomorrow?
明天或后天你想做什么？
The days become the same.
日子变得一样了。
Without taste.
没有味道。
You know, you're fighting this kind of mood.
你知道，你正在与这种情绪作斗争。
Sometimes you are not capable of fighting it, because you don't see the signs of it.
有时你没有能力对抗它，因为你看不到它的迹象。
And this is how, like, really, curfew as punishment.
这就是宵禁作为惩罚的方式。
It's collective punishment.
这是集体惩罚。
This phrase, "collective punishment," was uttered by every Palestinian I talked to.
我交谈过的每一个巴勒斯坦人都说过“集体惩罚”这个词。
I figured it was some description that had just caught on.
我认为这是一些刚刚流行的描述。
I didn't realize until I got back that "collective punishment" is a legal term the UN uses.
回来后才知道“集体惩罚”是联合国使用的法律术语。
It means punishing a group for the crimes of individuals, and it's illegal under the Geneva Convention.
这意味着为个人的罪行而惩罚一个群体，根据《日内瓦公约》，这是非法的。
Palestinians are trying to make the case in the foreign press that curfew, even though it's mostly nonviolent, is still a crime, punishing all of them for the actions of suicide bombers.
巴勒斯坦人正试图向外国媒体证明，宵禁尽管主要是非暴力的，但仍然是一种犯罪，会因自杀式炸弹袭击者的行为而惩罚他们所有人。
Before I came to Ramallah, I pictured a bombed-out place with crude buildings and occasional gunfire in the streets.
在我来拉马拉之前，我想象过一个被炸毁的地方，那里有简陋的建筑，街道上偶尔有枪声。
But it's not like that at all.
但事实根本不是那样的。
It's a middle-class city with cafes, and car dealerships, and women in tight shirts, and signs in English for ice cream and internet service.
这是一座中产阶级城市，有咖啡馆、汽车经销店、穿着紧身衬衫的女性，还有冰淇淋和互联网服务的英文标志。
Now Ramallah's 40,000 residents are trapped in their homes and offices, waiting.
现在拉马拉的 40,000 名居民被困在家里和办公室里等待。
Curfew is lifted arbitrarily, without notice, and reimposed a few hours later, also without notice.
宵禁在没有通知的情况下被任意取消，几个小时后又在没有通知的情况下重新实施。
Days go by when it's not lifted at all.
日子一天天过去，它根本没有被解除。
Cooped up, not knowing when they'll be let out, people get on each other's nerves.
人们被关在里面，不知道什么时候才能被释放，彼此都感到不安。
Adults bicker.
大人吵架。
Kids get restless and cranky.
孩子们会变得焦躁不安、脾气暴躁。
Yeah.
是的。
Sometimes I feel like it's just too much to survive it here.
有时我觉得在这里生存实在是太困难了。
I miss to see movies.
我想念看电影。
I miss to go for dinner with my friends, with my wife, to [UNINTELLIGIBLE], to see theater, I miss, you know, like just to walk in the park, and to go have a beer in bars and coffee shops.
我想念和我的朋友，和我的妻子一起去吃晚饭，[难以理解]，看剧院，我想念，你知道，就像在公园里散步，去酒吧和咖啡馆喝啤酒。
I love coffee shops.
我喜欢咖啡馆。
To go in and read.
进去读书。
And I miss every detail for me.
我想念我的每一个细节。
But then I think, my place is here.
但后来我想，我的位置就在这里。
I think there's a law that every story about Palestinian has to include a scene at a checkpoint, usually with a woman crying and a 15-year-old kid who says at the end, if this keeps up, I might become a suicide bomber, too.
我认为有一条法律规定，每个关于巴勒斯坦人的故事都必须包括检查站的场景，通常是一个女人在哭泣，一个 15 岁的孩子在最后说，如果再这样下去，我也可能成为自杀式炸弹袭击者。
We're not going to do that scene.
我们不会拍那个场景。
Though it is true that lots of Palestinians would like to see the end of Israel.
尽管许多巴勒斯坦人确实希望看到以色列的终结。
A poll this June said that 51% of Palestinians believe the goal of the current intifada is to liberate all of historic Palestine.
今年 6 月的一项民意调查显示，51% 的巴勒斯坦人认为当前起义的目标是解放整个历史上的巴勒斯坦。
Meaning not just the West Bank and Gaza, but all of Israel.
不仅指约旦河西岸和加沙地带，还指整个以色列。
That same poll showed 68% of Palestinians support suicide bombings.
同一项民意调查显示，68% 的巴勒斯坦人支持自杀式爆炸。
Back during the peace process, support for suicide bombings was around 20%.
早在和平进程期间，对自杀式爆炸的支持率约为 20%。
Most of us watching this conflict from the United States want to believe that moderate Palestinian voices are out there.
我们大多数在美国观看这场冲突的人都希望相信巴勒斯坦有温和的声音。
US policy is banking on it.
美国的政策正指望着它。
So we decided to go out and find those people.
所以我们决定出去寻找那些人。
I should say I'm very disappointed because there's no sound.
我应该说我很失望，因为没有声音。
This is a construction site.
这是一个建筑工地。
We shouldn't be able to talk and hear each other right now.
我们现在不应该能够交谈和听到对方的声音。
Sam Bahour is a Palestinian-American who is building the largest shopping center in the West Bank, a $10 million project that's just about finished.
萨姆·巴胡尔 (Sam Bahour) 是一名巴勒斯坦裔美国人，他正在建造西岸最大的购物中心，这个耗资 1000 万美元的项目即将完工。
But for weeks, almost no workers have been able to get to the site.
但几周来，几乎没有工人能够到达现场。
Sam is trying not to dwell on that.
萨姆试图不去想这个。
This is the main entrance to the building.
这是大楼的主入口。
People would walk into here.
人们会走进这里。
And to the left, they have the option of going up the escalator and going to the first floor of the building, or walking into the lobby towards the panoramic elevator, or they would walk straight ahead into our supermarket that we will run and operate, or they can walk into the right, which will be a fast food restaurant.
在左边，他们可以选择上自动扶梯到大楼一楼，或者走进大厅走向全景电梯，或者直接走进我们将运营和运营的超市，或者他们可以走进右边，这将是一家快餐店。
This building is just like Sam-- big and ambitious.
这座建筑就像山姆一样——大而雄心勃勃。
When the front of the building is put on-- and here's a sign of confidence in a city occupied by an army-- it's going to be a giant wall of glass, two stories high, arched.
当建筑物的正面建成时——这是对一座被军队占领的城市充满信心的标志——它将是一堵巨大的玻璃墙，两层楼高，呈拱形。
Sam grew up in Youngstown, Ohio, and came to the West Bank with his family for the first time when he was 10 years old.
Sam 在俄亥俄州扬斯敦长大，10 岁时第一次与家人一起来到约旦河西岸。
He returned every summer after that, taught himself Arabic, was president of the Palestinian Students Group in college.
此后，他每年夏天都会回来，自学阿拉伯语，并担任大学巴勒斯坦学生小组主席。
He was always looking for a way to move to the West Bank.
他一直在寻找搬到西岸的方法。
He finally did in 1995 at the start of the Oslo peace process.
1995 年奥斯陆和平进程开始时，他终于做到了。
He believes in two states-- one Israeli, one Palestinian, side by side.
他相信存在两个国家——一个是以色列，一个是巴勒斯坦，并存。
For the last three years, he's been overseeing the construction of this building.
在过去的三年里，他一直在监督这座大楼的建设。
With the recent siege, of course, that's become a little complicated.
当然，随着最近的围攻，事情变得有点复杂了。
This actually created an unusual business problem for Sam.
这实际上给 Sam 带来了一个不寻常的业务问题。
What you find is people who are coming to try to rent now, because they know that they'll be able to get a better deal.
你发现人们现在就来尝试租房，因为他们知道他们可以获得更好的交易。
Prospective tenants are angling for a better deal on the rent, because as one guy pointed out, there are tanks in the streets, and no one knows what disaster is going to come next.
未来的租户正在寻求更好的租金优惠，因为正如一位人士指出的那样，街道上有坦克，没有人知道接下来会发生什么灾难。
I mean, I was telling him that this is going to be the hottest spot in Ramallah, and he was saying that it's too close to the tanks that are next to-- about half a kilometer from us.
我的意思是，我告诉他这将是拉马拉最热的地方，他说这离我们旁边的坦克太近了——距离我们大约半公里。
So it's up to us now to just delay as much as possible until we're able to negotiate and better leverage our excellent building.
因此，我们现在需要尽可能地推迟，直到我们能够进行谈判并更好地利用我们优秀的建筑。
Sam estimates he's only two months of solid work away from finishing the building.
萨姆估计，他只需要两个月的时间就能完成这座大楼。
He speaks confidently as we walk around the scaffolding, boxes of tile and light fixtures, and wooden pallets.
当我们绕过脚手架、成箱的瓷砖和灯具以及木托盘时，他自信地说道。
But in his hand, he's working a set of worry beads.
但在他的手中，他正在运转一套忧念珠。
We go down to his office in the basement of the building and one of his staff brings us coffee.
我们去了他位于大楼地下室的办公室，他的一名工作人员给我们带来了咖啡。
Wherever you go in the West Bank, people are going to bring you coffee, usually in these little cups on a tray.
无论你去西岸的任何地方，人们都会给你送咖啡，通常是装在托盘上的小杯子里。
I don't drink coffee, and it took me an embarrassingly long time to realize that I should just take it when it's offered and have a polite sip.
我不喝咖啡，我花了很长一段时间才意识到我应该在别人递上咖啡时接过来，礼貌地喝一口。
I take my sip, and Sam tells me how he moved here to help create the first Palestinian-owned private phone company in the West Bank and Gaza, and why, after moving halfway around the world and throwing his heart and soul into it, he quit.
我抿了一口，萨姆告诉我他如何搬到这里，帮助在约旦河西岸和加沙创建第一家巴勒斯坦人拥有的私人电话公司，以及为什么在绕了半个地球并全身心投入之后，他辞职了。
I resigned after seeing that the Palestinian Authority was dealing with this company, in my terms, as a little heavy-handed.
在看到巴勒斯坦权力机构对待这家公司的态度（用我的话来说）有些严厉之后，我辞职了。
So like what would they do that was heavy-handed?
那么他们会采取什么严厉措施呢？
Well, one thing that happened after I got the company, if I can mention it, is they, for example, moved the entire cellular business into a separate subsidiary.
好吧，在我收购这家公司之后发生的一件事，如果我可以提到的话，是他们，例如，将整个蜂窝业务转移到一个单独的子公司。
Without shareholder knowledge, without shareholder approval.
在股东不知情、未经股东批准的情况下。
And to me, this was not creating confidence.
对我来说，这并没有创造信心。
When he says "this was not creating confidence," Sam is way underplaying what happened.
当萨姆说“这并没有创造信心”时，他对所发生的事情轻描淡写。
Which is that the bigwigs at his company, with the help of the Palestinian Authority, looted the company so they could make a pile of money, leaving smaller shareholders in the dust.
他的公司的大佬们在巴勒斯坦权力机构的帮助下洗劫了公司，这样他们就可以赚大钱，而小股东则被甩在了后面。
They did this by splitting off the most lucrative part of the company secretly and out of the blue, and putting it into a separate company, whose only shareholders were the bigwigs and the Palestinian Authority.
他们通过秘密地、突然地剥离公司最赚钱的部分，并将其放入一家单独的公司来做到这一点，该公司唯一的股东是权贵和巴勒斯坦权力机构。
The Authority did this, Sam says, at the same time that it was crossing its heart in front of the UN, saying it was giving up its private investments so Palestinians would be able to trust that their leaders were more focused on public service than on making a buck.
萨姆说，巴勒斯坦权力机构这样做的同时，它也在联合国面前发了脾气，表示它正在放弃私人投资，以便巴勒斯坦人能够相信，他们的领导人更关注公共服务，而不是赚钱。
But even though Sam was incensed to the point of quitting by the maneuvers of the Palestinian Authority, he describes the experience in the most charitable way possible.
尽管萨姆因巴勒斯坦权力机构的伎俩而愤怒到要退出，但他还是以最仁慈的方式描述了这段经历。
It's not something that's out of the ordinary.
这不是什么不寻常的事情。
Most third-world countries that privatize a sector have a hard time removing the government's role in that sector.
大多数将某个部门私有化的第三世界国家都很难取消政府在该部门的作用。
Anywhere in the world.
世界任何地方。
I mean, in Jordan as well.
我的意思是，在约旦也是如此。
The Palestinian community has been led, since the Oslo accords, by an institution that never had experience or training on state-building.
自《奥斯陆协定》签署以来，巴勒斯坦社区一直由一个从未有过国家建设经验或培训的机构领导。
Like the majority of the citizens of the world never dealt in building a state.
就像世界上大多数公民从未参与过建设国家一样。
Neither have we.
我们也没有。
They had experience and training on resisting Israel's occupation.
他们有抵抗以色列占领的经验和训练。
So when they were put into the chair of having to do both, I think that they were not able to deal with the latter.
因此，当他们被安排必须同时做这两件事时，我认为他们无法处理后者。
And that was frustrating.
这很令人沮丧。
Having said that, I'm one of the maybe few Palestinians who actually read Oslo, every part of Oslo, before I came.
话虽如此，在我来之前，我可能是少数几个真正读过奥斯陆、奥斯陆每个地方的巴勒斯坦人之一。
So when I came, I knew that there was a tremendous amount of complication built into the framework that was coming to live in.
因此，当我来到这里时，我知道即将出现的框架中内置了大量的复杂性。
Putting above that the continuation of Israeli aggressions, whether it's the expansion of settlements and creation of new settlements, and constraining our population's movement, which required resistance.
更重要的是，以色列的持续侵略，无论是扩大定居点和建立新的定居点，还是限制我们人口的流动，都需要抵抗。
I tend to understand why this set of leadership was not able to do both tasks at the same time.
我倾向于理解为什么这组领导层无法同时完成这两项任务。
There's an energy about Sam that I saw in few other Palestinians I talked to, that I've seen in few people, period.
萨姆身上有一种能量，这是我在其他与我交谈过的巴勒斯坦人身上看到的，也是我在很少的人身上看到的。
A cheerful relentlessness.
一种愉快的不屈不挠。
Things that would sap other people's strength and will-- corruption, curfew, a tank outside his house for days-- seemed only to inconvenience him.
那些会削弱别人力量和意志的事情——腐败、宵禁、他家外面的坦克好几天——似乎只会给他带来不便。
Bad news is just additional information.
坏消息只是附加信息。
[CAR ENGINE STARTING] Abruptly we have to leave.
[汽车发动机启动]我们突然必须离开。
Curfew is being reimposed in ten minutes, an hour earlier than anyone had expected.
宵禁将在十分钟后重新实施，比任何人预期的早一个小时。
As Sam is driving us through the city, cars are doing crazy moves to get home faster.
当山姆开车带我们穿过城市时，汽车正在做出疯狂的动作，以便更快地回家。
U-turns in the middle of the street, signaling to each other who should go first with little honks, because the traffic lights are all destroyed and the streets in some places are such a chewed-up mess that people have to go around the chunks of concrete, or go over them very slowly so they don't break an axle.
在街道中间掉头，用小喇叭互相示意谁应该先走，因为交通信号灯全部被毁了，有些地方的街道被毁得一团糟，人们不得不绕过大块混凝土，或者非常缓慢地从它们上面走过去，这样就不会折断车轴。
All of a sudden, two Israeli jeeps with loudspeakers on them are heading toward us.
突然，两辆带有扩音器的以色列吉普车向我们驶来。
One on our side of the street, going against traffic, and another one on the other side.
一个在我们这边的街道上，逆着交通，另一个在另一边。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Sam Bahour They will shoot.
[阿拉伯语] Sam Bahour 他们会开枪。
They will shoot if you don't abide by the curfew right now, they're going to shoot.
如果你现在不遵守宵禁，他们就会开枪，他们就会开枪。
That's what he's saying in Arabic.
这就是他用阿拉伯语说的。
As we drive by, my adrenaline floods, and I think, we could die here, right here in Sam's olive green Hyundai.
当我们开车经过时，我的肾上腺素激增，我想，我们可能会死在这里，就在山姆的橄榄绿现代汽车里。
If Israelis walk through their lives now, thinking, is this the cafe where I'll get blown up?
如果以色列人现在走过他们的生活，心想，这是我会被炸死的咖啡馆吗？
How about this?
这个怎么样？
This bus?
这辆巴士？
Is it OK, or should I just walk?
可以吗，还是我应该步行？
This moment in Ramallah, with curfew coming down, may be the Palestinian equivalent to that feeling.
随着宵禁的取消，拉马拉的这一刻对于巴勒斯坦人来说可能就是这种感觉。
What ordinary activity will I be doing when I'm killed?
当我被杀时我会做什么普通的活动？
There's no time to talk about it.
没有时间谈论它。
Sam can't take me all the way to the checkpoint.
山姆不能一路带我到检查站。
He apologizes.
他道歉了。
He has to get home.
他必须回家。
He flags me a taxi and speeds off.
他示意我叫一辆出租车，然后就开走了。
Act Two.
第二幕。
Here and There in the Land of Israel.
以色列土地上到处都是。
I traveled through Israel with Adam Davidson, a regular contributor to our show, who is half-Israeli.
我和亚当·戴维森一起游历了以色列，他是我们节目的定期撰稿人，有一半以色列血统。
Growing up, he'd visit Israel every summer.
在成长过程中，他每年夏天都会访问以色列。
He speaks Hebrew.
他说 希伯来语。
He's been 19 times.
他已经来过19次了。
And to get a sense of what it's like these days for Israelis, how things have changed recently with the end of the peace process, we talked to strangers and to people who Adam is known for years.
为了了解以色列人现在的情况，以及随着和平进程的结束，最近情况发生了怎样的变化，我们与陌生人和多年来认识亚当的人进行了交谈。
And driving from place to place, we ended up talking a lot about his grandmother, who moved to Palestine in the '30s, was part of that pioneer generation that created the state.
我们开车从一个地方到另一个地方，最后谈论了很多关于他的祖母的事，她在 30 年代搬到了巴勒斯坦，是创建这个国家的先驱一代的一员。
My grandmother was an old-school Zionist, and when I was a teenager, that seemed like the greatest thing in the world to be.
我的祖母是一位老派的犹太复国主义者，当我十几岁的时候，这似乎是世界上最伟大的事情。
She told me being a Zionist been having a grand dream and putting that above petty daily concerns.
她告诉我，作为一名犹太复国主义者，我们有一个宏伟的梦想，并将其置于日常琐事之上。
It meant redeeming not only the Jewish people, but the entire world, by becoming the planet's first truly enlightened nation.
这意味着通过成为地球上第一个真正开明的国家，不仅可以拯救犹太人民，而且可以拯救整个世界。
She described people back in the '30s and '40s who worked on farms, or they built banks and schools, and put everything they had into this collective dream of a proud new state.
她描述了 30 年代和 40 年代的人们，他们在农场工作，或者建造银行和学校，并将他们拥有的一切投入到这个令人自豪的新国家的集体梦想中。
We just spent two weeks in Israel, and as you might expect, we could not find a single person who still lives that way.
我们刚刚在以色列呆了两周，正如你所料，我们找不到一个仍然这样生活的人。
Take Adam's best friend in Israel, Liat.
以亚当在以色列最好的朋友利亚特为例。
She and her friends are pretty typical of people who live in Tel Aviv.
她和她的朋友是特拉维夫居民的典型代表。
Ira and I go out with Liat and some of her friends one night.
一天晚上，我和艾拉与莉亚特和她的一些朋友出去。
They agree to speak English for our microphones.
他们同意对着我们的麦克风说英语。
It is an utterly familiar kind of evening.
这是一个完全熟悉的夜晚。
Liat's boyfriend is a musician, and he tells me about his home recording setup.
利亚特的男朋友是一位音乐家，他向我讲述了他的家庭录音设置。
Everyone chats about their vacations.
每个人都在谈论他们的假期。
Ayelah tries to convince Liat, for the hundredth time, to dump her cosmetologist, Klara, whom Ayelah used to go to herself.
阿耶拉第一百次试图说服利亚特抛弃她的美容师克拉拉，阿耶拉过去常常去找自己。
She made me feel bad!
她让我感觉很糟糕！
I told her, listen.
我告诉她，听着。
I don't want to pay you more.
我不想付给你更多的钱。
I don't care if I neglect my face.
我不在乎是否忽略了我的脸。
I don't know yet.
我还不知道。
Ayelah It's difficult for her!
哎呀，这对她来说太难了！
It's difficult.
它很难。
I hear them every week, they talk about that, that Klara.
我每周都会听到他们谈论这个，那个克拉拉。
And they always say, yeah, we're going to leave her, we're going to leave her.
他们总是说，是的，我们要离开她，我们要离开她。
That's never happened.
那从来没有发生过。
I manage.
我管理。
Adam Davidson They want more than anything for Israel to be just another boring country like Norway or Belgium.
亚当·戴维森 他们最希望以色列成为另一个像挪威或比利时那样无聊的国家。
My grandmother would think this was a repudiation of everything she ever believed in, though she would have been very polite about it.
我的祖母会认为这是对她曾经相信的一切的否定，尽管她对此会非常有礼貌。
Of course all these people know that they are in a country at war.
当然这些人都知道他们正处于一个战争国家。
When you live here, you split yourself in two.
当你住在这里时，你将自己一分为二。
You have knowledge of violence, and you decide at some level that it is not going to touch your life.
你了解暴力，并且在某种程度上决定它不会影响你的生活。
Even when the conflict strikes close to home.
即使冲突发生在离家很近的地方。
For instance, a few weeks ago, Liat and her boyfriend Afir were about to leave for a movie when a bomb went off a block away.
例如，几周前，莉亚特和她的男朋友阿菲尔正准备去看电影，这时一枚炸弹在一个街区外爆炸。
We heard an explosion, and they said on the news that it happened in Biyalik Coffee Shop, which is a place that I usually sit with my friends.
我们听到爆炸声，他们在新闻中说事情发生在 Biyalik 咖啡店，那是我经常和朋友坐的地方。
I started shaking, I think, for a few minutes, and then I was very afraid.
我想，我开始颤抖了几分钟，然后我非常害怕。
I felt like something crawled into my house.
我感觉有什么东西爬进了我的房子。
I happened to call Liat right after that happened, and she told me that she completely came apart.
事情发生后我碰巧给莉亚特打电话，她告诉我她彻底崩溃了。
She was crying and she couldn't breathe and she fell to the floor.
她哭得无法呼吸，倒在了地上。
And then the news reported that the explosion hadn't been at Biyalik Coffee Shop, but at the cafe directly next door, a place Liat and her friends don't go to.
然后新闻报道说爆炸不是在 Biyalik 咖啡馆，而是在隔壁的咖啡馆，这是 Liat 和她的朋友们不去的地方。
And when it just moved two meters aside, I felt, OK.
当它刚刚移开两米时，我感觉，好吧。
They still missed me.
他们仍然想念我。
They still don't blow up places that I like to go to.
他们仍然没有炸毁我喜欢去的地方。
I'm safe, in a way.
从某种程度上来说，我很安全。
But it's stupid.
但这很愚蠢。
When I tell you this, I see it's stupid.
当我告诉你这件事时，我发现这是愚蠢的。
In a way, you try to find anything you can rely on, just to give yourself any kind of security, because you want to live your life.
在某种程度上，你试图找到任何可以依靠的东西，只是为了给自己某种安全感，因为你想要过自己的生活。
What's happened since my grandmother's time is that more and more Israelis just want to live their lives.
自从我祖母时代以来发生的事情是，越来越多的以色列人只想过自己的生活。
This is a huge change.
这是一个巨大的变化。
And to understand Israel today, you have to understand this change.
要了解今天的以色列，你必须了解这种变化。
Back in the '60s when pollsters asked Israelis about their hopes for themselves and for the state, most people said that their personal lives were very restricted, but they had huge hopes for the state of Israel.
早在六十年代，当民意调查者询问以色列人对自己和国家的希望时，大多数人表示他们的个人生活受到很大限制，但他们对以色列国抱有巨大的希望。
It was doing great.
它做得很好。
Today it's the exact reverse.
今天，情况恰恰相反。
Ira Glass This is Asher Arian, a pollster at the Israel Democracy Institute.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 我是阿舍尔·阿里安（Asher Arian），以色列民主研究所的民意调查专家。
The exact reverse.
完全相反。
The state is in bad shape.
国家状况很糟糕。
Personally, however, I'm doing all right.
但就我个人而言，我做得还不错。
So this is a measure of where are your hopes, where are your dreams?
所以这是衡量你的希望在哪里、你的梦想在哪里的衡量标准？
And the dreams are clearly in personal achievement.
梦想显然在于个人成就。
The state is no longer the vehicle with which you feel good about yourself or the future.
国家不再是让你对自己或未来感觉良好的工具。
Most Israelis over 30 can tick off the reasons this changed.
大多数 30 岁以上的以色列人都能说出这种变化的原因。
American consumerism swept through Israel just like it swept through every other country on earth, and Israel started doing things that seemed less noble and heroic.
美国的消费主义席卷了以色列，就像它席卷了地球上所有其他国家一样，以色列开始做一些看起来不那么高尚和英雄的事情。
There was the 1973 war, which Israel nearly lost because of government bungling.
1973 年的战争，由于政府的失误，以色列几乎输掉了这场战争。
There was the invasion of Lebanon, which turned into a kind of protracted Vietnam for them, which spanned two decades.
对黎巴嫩的入侵对他们来说变成了一场旷日持久的越南战争，持续了二十年。
And for some people, though definitely not all, there was the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, which began in 1967.
对于某些人（尽管绝对不是全部）来说，还有 1967 年开始的对约旦河西岸和加沙的占领。
Even to Israelis, Israel seemed less heroic.
即使对于以色列人来说，以色列也显得不那么英勇。
Politics, which used to be a source of a sense of meaning and coherence for us, so long as we felt that we were morally in the right-- were just dragged from under our feet.
政治曾经是我们意义感和连贯性的源泉，只要我们觉得自己在道德上是正确的，政治就被从我们脚下拖走了。
In his book The Hunched Over Generation, a young writer named Gadi Taub argued that this was why he and other people who grew up after the 1967 war turned to their private lives.
一位名叫加迪·陶布 (Gadi Taub) 的年轻作家在其著作《驼背的一代》(The Hunched Over Generation) 中指出，这就是他和其他 1967 年战争后长大的人转向私人生活的原因。
Because politics no longer gave them a feeling that they were part of a great, noble mission.
因为政治不再让他们感觉自己是伟大而崇高使命的一部分。
What happened is that a whole generation had to turn a blind eye to politics.
发生的事情是整整一代人不得不对政治视而不见。
And so we sort of built a shield, saying, politics is something that happens over there.
所以我们建立了一个盾牌，说，政治是那里发生的事情。
We are going to, you know, have earrings and pierce our belly buttons and have tattoos and just ignore politics altogether.
你知道，我们会戴耳环、穿肚脐、纹身，却完全忽视政治。
Listen, I have to stop you.
听着，我必须阻止你。
I need something to eat.
我需要吃点东西。
I have to eat--
我得吃饭——
Yeah, can we order coffee and a lot of cakes?
是的，我们可以点咖啡和很多蛋糕吗？
Which brings us back to Liat and her friends.
这让我们回到了莉亚特和她的朋友们。
After dinner came dessert.
晚餐后是甜点。
Chocolate mousse, Bavarian tart, cheesecake.
巧克力慕斯、巴伐利亚馅饼、芝士蛋糕。
If anything, the hopelessness and violence of the last few years since the peace process collapsed has pushed Liat and her friends even further away from politics.
如果说有什么不同的话，那就是和平进程崩溃后过去几年的绝望和暴力让利亚特和她的朋友们更加远离政治。
You read the newspaper?
你读报纸了吗？
I don't read the newspaper every day.
我不是每天都看报纸。
It's like six months ago, the economic crisis and the bombs and everything-- me personally, I decided not to read the newspaper, not to read interviews, not watching TV, nothing.
就像六个月前，经济危机、炸弹和一切——就我个人而言，我决定不看报纸，不看采访，不看电视，什么都没有。
I go to the beach.
我去海滩。
I make meditation.
我进行冥想。
I left my shrink, because when you go to shrink, you always talk about problems.
我离开了我的心理医生，因为当你去心理医生那里时，你总是谈论问题。
We should be clear that when Iran says this, it means something different here than it does in the United States.
我们应该清楚，当伊朗这么说时，它在这里的含义与在美国的含义不同。
At the same time that Israelis are withdrawing into their own lives, it's still just taken for granted that they have a special obligation to their country.
在以色列人逐渐融入自己的生活的同时，他们仍然理所当然地认为他们对自己的国家负有特殊的义务。
For a month every year, Iran gives up his medication, puts on a uniform, and does reserve service, like most Israeli men.
每年有一个月的时间，伊朗会像大多数以色列男人一样放弃药物治疗，穿上制服，参加预备役服役。
In fact, since the Second Intifada began, reservists have shown up in record numbers.
事实上，自第二次起义开始以来，预备役军人的数量就达到了创纪录的水平。
Thousands showed up who weren't even called.
数千人甚至没有被叫到就到场了。
Back in America, we had heard about refuseniks, who won't fight in the West Bank and Gaza.
回到美国，我们听说过拒绝在约旦河西岸和加沙作战的拒绝者。
But once we get to Israel, it became clear that they are very few-- in the hundreds.
但一旦我们到达以色列，我们就会发现他们的数量非常少——只有数百人。
Still very marginal.
还是很边缘化。
This might sound crazy, given the news this week, but it's safer in Israel than you think.
考虑到本周的新闻，这可能听起来很疯狂，但以色列比你想象的更安全。
Several Israelis made a point of telling us that more people die in car accidents than die in suicide bombings or other attacks.
一些以色列人特意告诉我们，死于车祸的人数比死于自杀式爆炸或其他袭击的人数还要多。
And many people told us they try to ignore the danger and go about their lives.
许多人告诉我们，他们试图忽视危险，继续自己的生活。
Still, it's been 42 suicide bombings plus other fatal attacks for two years.
尽管如此，两年来还是发生了 42 起自杀式爆炸事件以及其他致命袭击事件。
Something every few days.
每隔几天就做点什么。
And many people, especially parents, are more freaked out.
许多人，尤其是父母，更加害怕。
It's also changed Israeli politics.
这也改变了以色列的政治。
Imagine if bombs went off in American cities every few days, what that would do to our politics.
想象一下，如果美国城市每隔几天就会发生炸弹爆炸，这会对我们的政治产生什么影响。
A block east of my grandmother's 1930s apartment, we came across one of the oldest cafes in Tel Aviv.
在我祖母 1930 年代公寓以东的一个街区，我们遇到了特拉维夫最古老的咖啡馆之一。
Tamar Cafe has been a left-wing hangout for more than 70 years, since my grandmother lived on the street.
自从我祖母住在街上以来，添马舰咖啡馆 70 多年来一直是左翼人士的聚会场所。
The Labor Party newspaper used to be next door.
工党报纸曾经就在隔壁。
Today the place is like a shrine to Yitzhak Rabin, prime minister of Israel during the start of the Oslo peace process, who was slain by a right-wing Israeli Jew.
如今，这个地方就像是奥斯陆和平进程开始时以色列总理伊扎克·拉宾 (Yitzhak Rabin) 的圣地，他被以色列右翼犹太人杀害。
There are huge posters and paintings and drawings of him inside the cafe, and in the windows facing the street.
咖啡馆里和临街的窗户上都有他的巨幅海报和画作。
And then that poster over there, lo what?
然后那边的海报，瞧什么？
[SPEAKING HEBREW], we won't forget.
[说希伯来语]，我们不会忘记。
But [SPEAKING HEBREW]--
但是[希伯来语]--
We won't forgive.
我们不会原谅。
Wow.
哇。
That is intense.
那是很激烈的。
We won't forgive Netanyahu.
我们不会原谅内塔尼亚胡。
That is amazing.
这真是太棒了。
Many left-wingers privately accuse Benjamin Netanyahu, who was then the leader of the right-wing Likud Party, of creating the angry anti-peace atmosphere that led to Rabin's assassination.
许多左翼人士私下指责时任右翼利库德集团领导人的本杰明·内塔尼亚胡制造了愤怒的反和平气氛，导致拉宾被暗杀。
But I've never seen a poster or anything so clearly and publicly blaming Netanyahu for Rabin's death.
但我从未见过海报或任何东西如此明确、公开地将拉宾之死归咎于内塔尼亚胡。
When we go inside, we're told that the place used to be filled, surprise, with left-wingers.
当我们进去时，我们被告知这个地方过去充满了左翼分子，令人惊讶。
Now the cafe is empty, except for three men in the corner playing backgammon, who say that we'd be hard-pressed to find even one leftist these days who would stand by his old peacenik believes.
现在咖啡馆里空无一人，只有三个男人在角落里玩双陆棋，他们说我们现在很难找到一个左派人士支持他的旧和平主义信仰。
I was a member of the Labor Party for many years.
我曾是工党党员多年。
Very big supporter of the peace process.
和平进程的坚定支持者。
And today, I'm more close to the most extreme right that to the left.
今天，我更接近最极端的右派而不是左派。
This is Sa'ar Arit, 36, a lawyer.
我是萨尔·阿里特 (Sa'ar Arit)，36 岁，律师。
With him is Yugal Saraf, a 58-year-old with lively eyes and a kind face, the perennial winner of backgammon games here.
与他同行的还有尤加尔·萨拉夫 (Yugal Saraf)，他今年 58 岁，眼神活泼，面容慈祥，是这里双陆棋游戏的常年冠军。
One of the biggest ways the two years of intifada have changed Israel is now nearly everyone agrees on one important point.
两年的起义改变以色列的最大方式之一是现在几乎每个人都同意一个重要观点。
Everyone blames Arafat and the Palestinians for the collapse of peace process.
每个人都将和平进程的失败归咎于阿拉法特和巴勒斯坦人。
There are nuances to this.
这其中存在细微差别。
Like leftists will remind you how Israel kept doing lousy things to ruin the peace process during the '90s, like building new Jewish settlements in the West Bank.
就像左翼分子会提醒你，以色列在上世纪九十年代如何不断做一些糟糕的事情来破坏和平进程，比如在约旦河西岸建造新的犹太人定居点。
And people on the right will say that Israel did nothing wrong, were simply prudent in the face of Palestinian violations of the Oslo accords.
右翼人士会说，以色列没有做错任何事，只是在巴勒斯坦违反奥斯陆协议的情况下表现得很谨慎。
But everyone agrees on how the peace process ended.
但每个人都同意和平进程如何结束。
At Camp David in 2000, Arafat looked at the Israeli proposals, said no, and offered no counter-proposals.
2000年在戴维营，阿拉法特审视了以色列的提议，表示不，也没有提出反提议。
Then the bombings came.
然后爆炸发生了。
But as a result, Israelis have a kind of moral certitude that they are in the right.
但结果是，以色列人有一种道德确信，他们是对的。
They're united on this in a way that perhaps they have never been united in their history.
他们在这一点上的团结程度可能是他们历史上从未有过的。
The attitude is, we tried everything.
我们的态度是，我们尝试了一切。
We were reasonable.
我们是讲道理的。
We were generous.
我们很慷慨。
In the end, they didn't want peace.
到头来，他们并不想要和平。
Even Yugal, who wants to give the Palestinians every benefit of the doubt, shakes his head when he talks about how the peace process ended.
即使是想给巴勒斯坦人一切好处的尤加尔，在谈到和平进程如何结束时也摇了摇头。
And on that point, I blame the Palestinians or Arafat, which he was the leader, not to grab the opportunity.
在这一点上，我责怪巴勒斯坦人或阿拉法特（他是领导人）没有抓住这个机会。
He could have said "no, but" something.
他本可以说“不，但是”什么。
But he said just "no." No means no.
但他只是说“不”。不就是不。
He just walked away.
他就走开了。
Yugal Saraf Walked away.
尤加尔·萨拉夫走开了。
So he brought this political situation to be hopeless.
所以他让这个政治局面变得毫无希望。
Today only 20% of Israelis believe that Palestinians want peace, according to polls.
民意调查显示，如今只有 20% 的以色列人相信巴勒斯坦人想要和平。
At the height of the Oslo peace process, two-thirds believed it.
在奥斯陆和平进程的鼎盛时期，三分之二的人相信这一点。
The Palestinians doesn't want peace.
巴勒斯坦人不想要和平。
They want to destroy Israel.
他们想摧毁以色列。
So you had some sympathy for the Palestinians before.
所以你之前对巴勒斯坦人有一些同情。
Everybody had sympathy.
大家纷纷表示同情。
Man 3 They lost all their support within Israel.
男人 3 他们失去了以色列境内的所有支持。
And that's their tragedy, because they won't get it back.
这就是他们的悲剧，因为他们无法收回。
For a month every year, Sa'ar is an infantry man in the reserves, and he patrols in Ramallah, and Jenin, and Hebron, and other towns in the West Bank.
萨尔每年有一个月的时间在预备队担任步兵，在拉马拉、杰宁、希伯伦以及约旦河西岸的其他城镇巡逻。
He says he lost hope that the Palestinians want peace in October 2000, when two Israeli soldiers, older guys, reservists like him, got lost in Ramallah and were attacked by a mob in one of the most notorious incidents in the intifada.
他说，2000 年 10 月，他对巴勒斯坦人寻求和平失去了希望，当时两名以色列士兵，年纪较大的人，像他一样的预备役军人，在拉马拉迷路并遭到暴徒袭击，这是起义中最臭名昭著的事件之一。
And about 100 to 200 Palestinians tore them apart.
大约 100 至 200 名巴勒斯坦人将它们撕碎。
And I felt that that was the breaking point for me.
我觉得这就是我的转折点。
I thought that the Palestinians are animals.
我认为巴勒斯坦人是动物。
Ah.
啊。
I want to say something.
我想说点什么。
It is a bit simple-minded.
实在是有点简单。
But it's true, what he says in Ramallah.
但他在拉马拉说的话是真的。
This is where we saw the photos of them holding their hands out the window, their bloody hands.
在这里我们看到了他们把手伸出窗外的照片，他们的手沾满了血。
But the main question you should ask yourself is, how do people get that way?
但你应该问自己的主要问题是，人们是如何做到这一点的？
There's no people who are animals, and some are not animals.
没有人是动物，也有人不是动物。
So they got this way by constantly being brainwashed that we are vicious and cruel and Satanic and God knows what.
因此，他们通过不断地被洗脑，认为我们是邪恶的、残忍的、撒旦的，天知道是什么。
They get affected.
他们受到影响。
And they could be good boys.
他们可以成为好男孩。
This is not their nature.
这不是他们的本性。
It's propaganda.
这是宣传。
It's brainwashing.
这是洗脑。
This can be changed.
这是可以改变的。
I mean, they're animals.
我的意思是，他们是动物。
Ira Glass But three years ago, you didn't believe that.
Ira Glass：但三年前，你还不相信这一点。
They didn't become animals in three years.
三年了他们没有变成动物。
Yeah.
是的。
But what they did in the last year and a half broke everything.
但他们在过去一年半的所作所为打破了一切。
Yugal points at a man sitting in the cafe's outdoor table.
尤加尔指着坐在咖啡馆户外桌子上的一名男子。
There is an Arab Israeli sitting there.
有一个阿拉伯以色列人坐在那里。
You might want to talk to him.
你可能想和他谈谈。
He a friend of yours?
他是你的朋友吗？
Yugal Saraf Akram, yes.
尤加尔·萨拉夫·阿克拉姆，是的。
You know him, too?
你也认识他吗？
Man 3 Yeah, I know him.
男人 3 是的，我认识他。
He an animal?
他是动物吗？
Man 3 No. He's not an animal.
男人 3 不，他不是动物。
I'll tell you why.
我会告诉你原因。
He doesn't have the power.
他没有这个权力。
Oh, he could be an animal if he had the power.
哦，如果他有力量的话，他可以成为一只动物。
I'm telling you.
我告诉你。
If tomorrow the Arab countries will conquer Israel, it will change him in a minute.
如果明天阿拉伯国家征服以色列，他就会立刻改变。
And I'm sorry to say this, but-- a leftist.
我很抱歉这么说，但是——一个左派。
Sure, I'm a leftist.
当然，我是左派。
That's the leftists of Israel today.
这就是今天以色列的左派。
This is where the leftists come to.
这就是左派的来处。
No longer advancing a peace process, they were arguing over whether the Arabs were born animals or were taught to be animals.
他们不再推进和平进程，而是争论阿拉伯人是天生的动物还是被教导成为动物。
[SPEAKING HEBREW] Adam Davidson This is my cousin David.
[希伯来语] 亚当·戴维森 这是我的表弟大卫。
He's standing in a hallway of the Knesset, the Israeli parliament, talking on one cell phone, when his other cell phone rings.
他站在以色列议会的走廊里，用一部手机通话，这时他的另一部手机响了。
He answers it.
他回答了。
David runs the office and political operations for a conservative member of parliament.
大卫为一名保守派议员负责办公室和政治运作。
And while the left might feel history has passed it by, David and his party, the Likud, are totally energized right now.
尽管左派可能会觉得历史已经过去，但大卫和他的政党利库德集团现在却充满了活力。
They always opposed the peace process, and now it's dead.
他们一直反对和平进程，现在和平进程已经死了。
Their man Ariel Sharon is the prime minister, with the highest approval ratings in Israeli history.
他们的人阿里尔·沙龙是以色列历史上支持率最高的总理。
Finally, the army has struck decisively in the territories.
最后，军队在领土上进行了决定性的打击。
And at last, Israelis agree that Arafat can't be trusted.
最后，以色列人同意阿拉法特不值得信任。
This is all perfect for David, who got into politics in 1993 because he was alarmed at the newly-signed Oslo treaty.
这对大卫来说是完美的，他于 1993 年进入政界，因为他对新签署的奥斯陆条约感到震惊。
You feel good, because you know that after ten years, what you said would happen, happened.
你感觉很好，因为你知道十年后，你所说的会发生，就会发生。
Meaning that the whole Oslo accord will collapse, that the violence will return.
这意味着整个奥斯陆协议将会崩溃，暴力将会卷土重来。
And after ten years of the other side, the media, the public figures, and all of the left said that you don't know what you're talking about, and suddenly, the reality comes and you see that it is true-- that gives you a good feeling.
经过十年的另一边，媒体、公众人物和所有左派都说你不知道自己在说什么，突然，现实来了，你看到这是真的——这给你一种很好的感觉。
Because you will know that you were right.
因为你会知道你是对的。
We spent a day at the Knesset.
我们在议会度过了一天。
Every time we tried to set up an interview with a member of a left wing party, we'd open the door, and there would be some older woman who looked like she'd been there since 1948, sitting alone, phones quiet.
每次我们试图采访一位左翼政党的成员时，我们都会打开门，里面会有一些年长的女性，她看起来像是自 1948 年以来就一直在那里，独自坐着，电话安静。
Then we'd head back to the right, to David, where there would be phones ringing, people visiting, a gaggle of clean-cut members of the Likudnik Young Guard, happy and excited and busy.
然后我们会回到右边，回到大卫，那里电话铃声响起，人们来访，一群干净整洁的利库德尼克青年卫队成员，快乐、兴奋、忙碌。
David is constantly pulling one after another up to our microphones and cheerfully announcing,
大卫不断地把一个又一个拉到我们的麦克风前，高兴地宣布，
Here is somebody who would want an interview.
这是一个想要接受采访的人。
He's very interesting.
他很有趣。
His name is Shimi ben David.
他的名字叫希米·本·大卫。
He's assistant of the head of the Coalition, Mr. Ze'ev Boim.
他是联盟主席泽夫·博伊姆先生的助手。
What's most surprising about watching them work is just how much of their attention, here in Israel's legislature, is focused on the United States.
观察他们的工作最令人惊讶的是他们在以色列立法机构的注意力有多少集中在美国。
Of a staff of only four people, one of them is a specialist on the US Congress.
其工作人员只有四人，其中一名是美国国会的专家。
On the desk of this member of Knesset, Yuval Steinitz, sits a business card from one US Congressman and a personal letter from another.
这位议员尤瓦尔·斯坦尼茨的办公桌上放着一位美国国会议员的名片和另一位国会议员的私人信件。
On the day we visit, a delegation of a dozen US congressional aides drops by, as does former Republican presidential candidate, Gary Bauer.
我们访问当天，由十几名美国国会助手组成的代表团顺便拜访，前共和党总统候选人加里·鲍尔 (Gary Bauer) 也来访。
David orders Steinitz to put on a jacket for that one.
大卫命令斯坦尼茨为那个人穿上一件夹克。
[UNINTELLIGIBLE] jacket.
[无法辨认]夹克。
Gary Bauer Hi.
加里·鲍尔嗨。
How are you?
你好吗？
Gary Bauer.
加里·鲍尔.
Nice to meet you.
很高兴见到你。
Thank you for coming to us in such a difficult time.
感谢您在如此困难的时刻来到我们身边。
Very encouraging.
非常鼓舞人心。
My pleasure.
我的荣幸。
I've been a strong supporter of Israel, but my week here makes my feelings on behalf of Israel even stronger.
我一直是以色列的坚定支持者，但我在这里的一周让我对以色列的感情更加强烈。
So I can't wait to get back to Washington and--
所以我迫不及待地想回到华盛顿并且——
During their meeting, Steinitz urges Bauer to lobby Congress against advanced arms sales to Egypt and Syria.
在会议期间，斯坦尼茨敦促鲍尔游说国会反对向埃及和叙利亚出售武器。
This is more involvement in u s affairs than the average Knesset member has.
这比一般的议会议员更多地参与美国事务。
And part of it is simple political ambition-- to get press attention, to get ahead in national politics here.
其中一部分是简单的政治野心——引起媒体关注，在国家政治中取得领先地位。
It's helpful to be seen as a player in US-Israeli relations.
被视为美以关系的参与者是有帮助的。
So it will be extremely important if you will succeed to encourage some of our, at least in friends, to visit us and [INAUDIBLE].
因此，如果您能够成功地鼓励我们中的一些人（至少是朋友）来拜访我们并[听不清]，那将非常重要。
If you want to understand why the right-wing and Ariel Sharon are so popular right now, and if you want to hear just how angry Israelis are, just visit a bus stop in Jerusalem.
如果你想了解为什么右翼和阿里尔·沙龙现在如此受欢迎，如果你想听听以色列人有多么愤怒，只需参观耶路撒冷的一个公共汽车站即可。
More bombs have exploded in Jerusalem than any other Israeli city.
耶路撒冷爆炸的炸弹数量比任何其他以色列城市都多。
This 15-year-old in braces with pink rubber bands and one of the long skirts worn by the religious was waiting for a bus to the settlement her parents moved to from the US and was more or less typical of everyone we talked to at the bus stop.
这位 15 岁的女孩戴着粉红色橡皮筋的背带，穿着修士穿的长裙，正在等待开往她父母从美国搬到的定居点的公共汽车，她或多或少是我们在公交车站交谈过的每个人的典型。
First of all, I would kill Arafat.
首先，我会杀掉阿拉法特。
And we are not the ones who have to suffer.
而我们并不是那些必须受苦的人。
This is our country.
这是我们的国家。
We don't have to give it up for them.
我们不必为了他们而放弃。
If they want to live with us, they have to accept our conditions.
如果他们想和我们住在一起，就必须接受我们的条件。
We don't have to be suckers, and like, get down on our knees for us.
我们不必成为傻瓜，为我们跪下。
Because the fact is that before this whole peace agreement started, they were afraid of us.
因为事实是，在整个和平协议开始之前，他们害怕我们。
OK?
好的？
They were afraid of us.
他们害怕我们。
No one threw stones.
没有人扔石头。
Everyone was afraid to walk in the street.
每个人都害怕走在街上。
And since this started, you know, we give them, like you know, there's a saying.
自从这件事开始以来，你知道，我们给他们，就像你知道的那样，有一句话。
You're give them one finger and they want the whole hand.
你给他们一根手指，他们想要整只手。
Do you think that eventually there should be two states, or do you think Israel shouldn't give up the Territories?
您认为最终应该有两个国家，还是您认为以色列不应该放弃这些领土？
Israel shouldn't give up one inch of territory.
以色列不应该放弃一寸领土。
This is our country.
这是我们的国家。
We fought for it.
我们为之奋斗。
We won.
我们赢了。
That's it!
就是这样！
You know?
你知道？
Stop being babies.
别再当婴儿了。
Or do you want New York to be given back to the English or something?
或者你想让纽约回归英国人之类的吗？
You know?
你知道？
It's stupid.
这很愚蠢。
It's just that they hate us so badly, they want to do anything to kill us.
只是他们太恨我们了，想尽一切办法来杀死我们。
Like the kids.
就像孩子们一样。
They learn how to shoot guns.
他们学习如何射击。
They learn in school how to hate Jews.
他们在学校学习如何仇恨犹太人。
I mean, my parents didn't bring me up that way.
我的意思是，我的父母不是这样养育我的。
I wasn't brought up hate Arabs.
我从小就讨厌阿拉伯人。
But you do hate them.
但你确实讨厌他们。
Girl I hate the people who want to kill me, yes.
女孩，我讨厌那些想杀我的人，是的。
If there's one single person in [UNINTELLIGIBLE] and Ramallah, which I highly doubt there is.
如果[无法辨认]和拉马拉有一个人的话，我非常怀疑是否存在。
But if there's one single person there who is truly pro-Israel and pro-Jewish, then sure, I have nothing against them.
但如果那里有一个人真正支持以色列和犹太人，那么我当然不会反对他们。
But the fact is that the majority of all these people, they're murderers, you know?
但事实是，这些人中的大多数都是杀人犯，你知道吗？
When we first arrived in Israel, an American TV cameraman told us that when you're in the Mideast, you constantly find yourself in social situations with people who are thoughtful, and funny, and incredibly gracious, and you hang out with them for hours-- the nicest people in the world-- and then they come out with some hateful comment that leaves you sort of stunned.
当我们第一次到达以色列时，一位美国电视摄影师告诉我们，当你在中东时，你经常会发现自己在社交场合与那些体贴、有趣、极其亲切的人在一起，你和他们一起玩了几个小时——世界上最好的人——然后他们就会说出一些令人憎恶的评论，让你有点震惊。
This happens all the time, he says.
他说，这种情况经常发生。
At a party with Adam's Sephardic relatives, that is more or less what happened.
在与亚当的西班牙裔亲戚的一次聚会上，或多或少发生了这样的事情。
One person after another tells us we have to kill the Arabs.
一个又一个的人告诉我们，我们必须杀死阿拉伯人。
We have to smack them down.
我们必须把他们打倒。
The Arabs do not understand anything else.
阿拉伯人不明白其他任何事情。
Then we ate cake and sang happy birthday to a one-year-old.
然后我们吃了蛋糕并为一个一岁的孩子唱生日快乐歌。
[SINGING IN HEBREW] Surprisingly, the one person at the party who is at all sympathetic to the Palestinians is Egal, the father of the one-year-old birthday girl.
[用希伯来语唱歌] 令人惊讶的是，聚会上唯一一个同情巴勒斯坦人的人是埃加尔，他是一岁生日女孩的父亲。
He just returned from his reserve service in the West Bank in an elite combat unit.
他刚刚从约旦河西岸精锐作战部队的预备役服役归来。
He was one of the Israeli soldiers you saw on TV, fighting at the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem.
他是你在电视上看到的在伯利恒圣诞教堂战斗的以色列士兵之一。
He tells me he thinks Israel is to blame for the anger Palestinians feel against them.
他告诉我，他认为以色列应对巴勒斯坦人对他们的愤怒负责。
We didn't treat them well enough, so we drove them to the First Intifada.
我们对待他们不够好，所以我们把他们赶到了第一次起义。
And that's led to the other events.
这导致了其他事件。
I know the West Bank and Gaza Strip since I first came in in the First Intifada.
自从我第一次参加第一次起义以来，我就了解约旦河西岸和加沙地带。
And we know the ordinary civilians, they don't have high demands.
而我们了解普通平民，他们的要求并不高。
They want to provide their family.
他们想养家糊口。
That's all.
就这样。
To feel secure.
感到安全。
I believe there will be someday a Palestinian country.
我相信有一天会有一个巴勒斯坦国家。
I think it's going to be a democratic country.
我认为这将是一个民主国家。
The first democratic Arab country.
第一个民主的阿拉伯国家。
In fact, every Israeli we talked to who served in the West Bank or Gaza tells us the same thing Egal says-- that their military service convinced them that Israel should eventually give up the territories.
事实上，我们采访过的每一位在约旦河西岸或加沙服役的以色列人都告诉我们埃加尔所说的同样的话——他们的兵役使他们相信以色列最终应该放弃这些领土。
Even lots of hawks, right-wingers like Adam's cousin David, now say that Israel should someday get out of the territories.
甚至许多鹰派，像亚当的表弟大卫这样的右翼分子，现在也表示以色列有一天应该离开这些领土。
80% of Israelis support some form of separation.
80% 的以色列人支持某种形式的分离。
50% are still in favor of an independent Palestinian state.
50%的人仍然支持独立的巴勒斯坦国。
Ten years ago, this would have been seen as nearly traitorous by most Israelis.
十年前，这会被大多数以色列人视为近乎叛国。
There was a fundamental change of opinion caused by the peace process.
和平进程引起了观念的根本转变。
So at the same time that Israel has become so much more hawkish towards the Palestinians, it's as if the hawk has ingested a dove.
因此，在以色列对巴勒斯坦人变得更加强硬的同时，就好像鹰吞下了一只鸽子一样。
Still, nobody expects peace to arrive anytime soon.
尽管如此，没有人期望和平很快就会到来。
Even if a peace treaty were signed, only 22% of the country believes it would actually end the conflict.
即使签署了和平条约，该国也只有 22% 的人相信这会真正结束冲突。
So now, instead of readying themselves for peace, Israelis are adjusting themselves to the lack of it.
因此，现在以色列人并没有为和平做好准备，而是在适应缺乏和平的情况。
Here's my friend Liat.
这是我的朋友利亚特。
Liat Every year I say, oh my God.
利亚特 每年我都会说，天哪。
How I thought life could be different.
我以为生活会有所不同。
And I see it's not.
我发现事实并非如此。
And I am losing something.
我正在失去一些东西。
I'm more mature, I'm more strong, maybe.
也许我更成熟了，也更坚强了。
But I'm losing something.
但我正在失去一些东西。
Maybe I could keep it in a difference life.
也许我可以在不同的生活中保留它。
Losing what?
失去什么？
Liat I don't know.
莉亚特我不知道。
Something naive.
有些天真。
Something with hope.
充满希望的东西。
In a way, I'm getting tough.
从某种意义上说，我变得强硬了。
Each year I'm tougher.
一年比一年，我更加坚强。
And it's not always good for you to be tough.
强硬并不总是对你有好处。
Lots of people told us they didn't expect peace in their lifetime.
许多人告诉我们，他们并不期望一生能有和平。
Us Americans have to say, this is the main thing that we really did not understand before we got to Israel-- that Israelis are prepared for the idea that it will continue like this for years.
我们美国人不得不说，这是我们在到达以色列之前真正不明白的主要事情——以色列人已经准备好接受这样的情况将持续多年。
They'd rather have peace, but they'll settle for what they have now.
他们宁愿拥有和平，但他们会满足于现在所拥有的。
A war that produces fewer casualties than car accidents.
一场战争造成的伤亡比车祸还要少。
A war where they dominate and control their enemy.
一场他们统治和控制敌人的战争。
A war, they'll tell you, that's unlike the wars of 1948 and '67 and '73 because it does not threaten Israel's existence.
他们会告诉你，这场战争不同于 1948 年、67 年和 73 年的战争，因为它不会威胁以色列的存在。
We came to Israel thinking what a lot of foreigners think-- that there's this great middle ground between the Israelis and the Palestinians, that the majority of reasonable people on both sides could work out a deal, and that the only problem is the small percentage of extremists on either side.
我们来到以色列时想到了很多外国人的想法——以色列人和巴勒斯坦人之间存在着巨大的中间地带，双方大多数理性的人都可以达成协议，唯一的问题是双方的极端分子比例都很小。
After this trip, we don't feel so hopeful.
经过这次旅行，我们感觉没有那么希望了。
The two sides are still far apart.
双方仍相距甚远。
The most generous Israeli offer is still short of the minimum demands of most Palestinians.
以色列最慷慨的提议仍达不到大多数巴勒斯坦人的最低要求。
And as the violence continues, the people in the middle are becoming more like the extremists.
随着暴力事件的持续，中间人变得越来越像极端分子。
Coming up.
即将到来。
Palestinian moderates and Palestinian moderation.
巴勒斯坦温和派和巴勒斯坦温和派。
A guide for the perplexed in a minute from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续时，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台为困惑的人提供一分钟指南。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Our program about Israel and the West Bank continues.
我们关于以色列和西岸的计划仍在继续。
We've arrived at act three of our program.
我们已经进入了计划的第三幕。
Act Three.
第三幕。
What's a Moderate?
什么是中等？
I have to say, one of the few hopeful moments we had in Israel was in the cafe with all the pictures of Yitzhak Rabin.
我不得不说，我们在以色列度过的为数不多的充满希望的时刻之一就是在挂满伊扎克·拉宾照片的咖啡馆里。
The older man that we interviewed, Yugal, was talking about how, in a way, Israelis have very short memories.
我们采访的年长者尤加尔正在谈论以色列人在某种程度上记忆力很差。
"So much happens," he said, "that a bombing a few weeks ago can feel like years ago.
“发生了太多事情，”他说，“几周前发生的爆炸事件感觉就像几年前发生的一样。
As soon as the Palestinians have new leadership," he said, "as soon as there's some glimmer of hope, everyone will grab at it.
一旦巴勒斯坦人有了新的领导层，”他说，“只要有一线希望，每个人都会抓住它。
Politics will change.
政治将会改变。
You will see," he said.
你会看到的，”他说。
"People will grab at the smallest glimpse of hope."
“人们会抓住最微小的希望。”
Which brings us to our last story from Nancy Updike.
这就引出了南希·厄普代克的最后一个故事。
At the beginning of June, before President Bush's speech, Palestinians were asked the following question in a poll.
六月初，在布什总统发表讲话之前，巴勒斯坦人在一项民意调查中被问及以下问题。
Which Palestinian personality do you trust the most?
您最信任哪个巴勒斯坦人？
Yasser Arafat was number one, with 25%.
亚西尔·阿拉法特位居第一，支持率为 25%。
Next was the spiritual leader of Hamas, Sheik Ahmed Yassin, with 8%.
其次是哈马斯精神领袖谢赫·艾哈迈德·亚辛 (Sheik Ahmed Yassin)，得票率为 8%。
And then there was 24% who said they didn't trust anybody.
然后有 24% 的人表示他们不信任任何人。
That "trust nobody" group was too small to be measured at the beginning of Oslo, but it's grown ever since, until finally it's caught up to Arafat.
这个“不信任任何人”的团体在奥斯陆会议开始时规模太小，无法衡量，但此后它一直在壮大，直到最后赶上阿拉法特。
In other words, there's a space opening in Palestinian politics.
换句话说，巴勒斯坦政治中有一个空间。
Arafat has always warned that any space he doesn't fill will be filled by Hamas.
阿拉法特一直警告说，任何他没有填补的空间都将由哈马斯填补。
But what if there were a third choice?
但如果还有第三种选择呢？
Not the corrupt autocracy of the Palestinian Authority and not the suicide bombing fundamentalism of Hamas?
不是巴勒斯坦权力机构的腐败专制，也不是哈马斯的自杀式爆炸原教旨主义？
Since I arrived, I'd been hearing a lot about a man named Mustafa Barghouti, a doctor who heads one of the biggest medical relief organizations in the occupied territories, and who's been speaking out a lot lately on political issues.
自从我到达以来，我经常听到一位名叫穆斯塔法·巴尔古提（Mustafa Barghouti）的医生，他是被占领土上最大的医疗救援组织之一的负责人，最近在政治问题上发表了很多言论。
I went to Ramallah to meet him.
我去拉马拉见他。
I went with Rula Halawani, a Palestinian photojournalist who signed on to be my guide and translator.
我和巴勒斯坦摄影记者鲁拉·哈拉瓦尼 (Rula Halawani) 一起去了，她签约成为我的导游和翻译。
At the checkpoint, she asked people if they'd heard of Mr. Barghouti.
在检查站，她询问人们是否听说过巴尔古提先生。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Man 4 [SPEAKING ARABIC]
[讲阿拉伯语] 男人 4 [讲阿拉伯语]
Of course, everybody knows him.
当然，每个人都认识他。
Who doesn't know him?
谁不认识他？
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
[说阿拉伯语]
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Rula Halawani He's the best, he's just the best.
[阿拉伯语] Rula Halawani 他是最好的，他就是最好的。
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
[说阿拉伯语]
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Rula Halawani He's a very good guy.
[阿拉伯语] Rula Halawani 他是一个非常好的人。
[SPEAKING ARABIC]
[说阿拉伯语]
[SPEAKING ARABIC] He's a good man.
[说阿拉伯语]他是个好人。
Very good man.
非常好的人。
Politically, Barghouti has two advantages that can also be disadvantages.
在政治上，巴尔古提有两个优点，也可能是缺点。
First, he's been doing medical relief for over 20 years, and many people know him through that and love him for it.
首先，他从事医疗救助工作已经有20多年了，很多人通过这件事认识了他并喜爱他。
The downside is that many see him as a doctor, not a political figure.
缺点是许多人将他视为医生，而不是政治人物。
They don't even necessarily know what he believes in politically.
他们甚至不一定知道他在政治上信仰什么。
Second, his distant cousin is Marwan Barghouti, a popular leader in Arafat's Fatah Movement who's in an Israeli jail now, charged with ordering suicide bombings.
其次，他的远房表弟是马尔万·巴尔古提（Marwan Barghouti），他是阿拉法特法塔赫运动中一位受欢迎的领导人，目前被关押在以色列监狱中，被指控下令实施自杀性爆炸。
So the Barghouti name is one that people know and respect, but sometimes people confuse Mustafa with Marwan, or simply don't see any difference between the two, even though Mustafa preaches nonviolence while Marwan is more of a Malcolm X figure-- by any means necessary.
因此，巴尔古提这个名字是人们所熟知和尊重的，但有时人们会将穆斯塔法与马尔万混淆，或者根本看不出两者之间有任何区别，尽管穆斯塔法宣扬非暴力，而马尔万更像是马尔科姆·X 的人物——无论如何都是必要的。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Rula Halawani All the Palestinians like Mustafa Barghouti and think he's a great guy.
[阿拉伯语] Rula Halawani 所有巴勒斯坦人都喜欢 Mustafa Barghouti，并认为他是一个很棒的人。
He does so much for the society.
他为社会做了很多事。
And also Marwan Barghouti.
还有马尔万·巴尔古提。
He's the same.
他也是一样。
The two of them.
他们两个。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Rula Halawani Believe in every guy who's honest and is straight and works for the Palestinians.
[阿拉伯语] Rula Halawani 相信每一个诚实、正直、为巴勒斯坦人工作的人。
Vitamin E, 600 milligrams.
维生素E，600毫克。
Nancy Updike Mustafa Barghouti is on the phone when we get there.
当我们到达那里时，南希·厄普代克·穆斯塔法·巴尔古提正在打电话。
His organization, the Union of Palestinian Medical Relief Committees, gets medicine and basic care to people who can't make it to a hospital or clinic.
他的组织巴勒斯坦医疗救济委员会联盟为无法前往医院或诊所的人们提供药品和基本护理。
They've been very busy under curfew.
宵禁期间他们非常忙碌。
Barghouti is hard to keep up with.
巴尔古提很难跟上。
In one day he had two meetings, did five interviews, went to a demonstration, gave medicine to several people, and did more than one impromptu medical examination in the hallway on the way to his meetings.
一天之内，他开了两次会，做了五次采访，参加了示威活动，给几个人喂药，并在去开会的路上在走廊里做了不止一次即兴体检。
Which doctor saw her?
哪位医生给她看过？
This doctor.
这位医生。
He doesn't know his name.
他不知道自己的名字。
And now he's showing the X-ray of the child.
现在他正在给孩子看X光片。
A father has stopped Barghouti in the hallway to show him his six-year-old daughter.
一位父亲在走廊上拦住了巴尔古提，让他看自己六岁的女儿。
She has terrible headaches, and she's had them for four months, he says.
他说，她头痛得厉害，已经四个月了。
She cries a lot and sometimes she throws up.
她经常哭，有时还会呕吐。
She's wearing a pink sweater and white sandals.
她穿着一件粉色毛衣和白色凉鞋。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Rula Halawani He told him, you must have this test for her.
[阿拉伯语] Rula Halawani 他告诉他，你必须为她做这个测试。
It's urgent.
事情很紧急。
And he wrote down MRI, CT scan of the brain.
他还写下了大脑的核磁共振、CT 扫描。
Yes.
是的。
Nancy Updike Yasser Arafat, in his recent scrambling to seem like a reformer, offered Barghouti a ministry.
南希·厄普代克·亚西尔·阿拉法特最近努力让自己看起来像个改革者，为巴尔古提提供了一个部长职位。
Barghouti turned him down.
巴尔古提拒绝了他。
He has something bigger in mind.
他有更大的想法。
Six weeks ago, Barghouti and a few other community leaders launched what they called the Palestinian National Initiative.
六周前，巴尔古提和其他一些社区领导人发起了他们所谓的巴勒斯坦民族倡议。
That rather bland name conceals a radical proposition.
这个相当平淡的名字隐藏着一个激进的主张。
They want to create the first new political movement among Palestinians since Hamas emerged in the late 1980s.
他们希望在巴勒斯坦人中发起自 20 世纪 80 年代末哈马斯出现以来的第一个新的政治运动。
The First Intifada brought Hamas.
第一次起义带来了哈马斯。
Barghouti is trying to make the second bring real democracy.
巴尔古提正在努力让第二次带来真正的民主。
The National Initiative calls for immediate elections, run by somebody other than Arafat's election commission.
国家倡议呼吁立即举行选举，由阿拉法特选举委员会以外的其他人主持。
Supervised by international observers, it calls for an end to suicide bombings and other attacks on Israeli civilians.
在国际观察员的监督下，它呼吁停止针对以色列平民的自杀式爆炸和其他袭击。
[CHANTING IN ARABIC] Curfew's been lifted for a few hours, and Barghouti and some other representatives of nongovernmental organizations are staging a demonstration in Ramallah's main square.
[用阿拉伯语高呼]宵禁已解除几个小时，巴尔古提和其他一些非政府组织的代表正在拉马拉的主广场举行示威。
They're protesting curfews, closures, and the occupation.
他们抗议宵禁、封锁和占领。
Maybe you can tell from how thin the chant is that there are only about 30 people at the demonstration, including Barghouti.
也许你可以从微弱的口号中看出，包括巴尔古提在内，参加示威的人只有大约 30 人。
Why do you think more people aren't joining the demonstration?
您认为为什么没有更多人参加示威？
Well, first of all, the timing is not very good.
嗯，首先，时机不太好。
And as I told you, because many of them are busy.
正如我告诉你的，因为他们中的许多人都很忙。
And also it needs better organization.
它还需要更好的组织。
But with time, this is our stand.
但随着时间的推移，这就是我们的立场。
This is like a beginning.
这就像一个开始。
It makes a position.
它占据了一个位置。
It shows that civil society is against this oppression.
这表明民间社会反对这种压迫。
It shows that there is nonviolent approach to struggle.
这表明有非暴力的斗争方式。
And it will build up gradually.
而且它会逐渐建立起来。
This gives people the impression that something can be done, and it is doable.
这给人一种感觉，某事是可以做的，而且是可行的。
Something can be done other than suicide bombings?
除了自杀式爆炸之外还能做些什么吗？
Exactly.
确切地。
That there is a place, there is a space, and there is an effective nonviolence present, yes.
是的，有一个地方，有一个空间，并且存在有效的非暴力。
Barghouti stands in the middle of the demonstrators, dressed simply in dark gray pants and a blue shirt with white pinstripes.
巴尔古提站在示威者中间，穿着简单的深灰色裤子和带有白色细条纹的蓝色衬衫。
He wears glasses.
他戴着眼镜。
He's almost 50 and his face has the lines of a person who squints a lot, smiles a lot, and worries a lot.
他已经快50岁了，脸上的纹路就像是经常眯眼、经常微笑、经常忧虑的人。
It's strange, but if you see him in a crowd of 30 people, even if he's not doing anything, you can tell he's the leader.
这很奇怪，但如果你在三十人的人群中看到他，即使他什么也没做，你也可以看出他是领导者。
He has that easy strength that makes people feel excited and relieved to see him.
他有一种轻松的力量，让人看到他就会感到兴奋和欣慰。
Oh, thank God he's here.
哦，感谢上帝，他在这里。
He seems important.
他看起来很重要。
Too important, frankly, to be at an anemic rally in the middle of the day.
坦率地说，这太重要了，不能在中午参加一场乏力的集会。
He seems out of place.
他看起来格格不入。
"Moderate" can mean a lot of things here.
“适度”在这里可以有很多含义。
Among Palestinians, what it usually means is that they accept the premise of Oslo-- that someday there will be two states, side by side, with peace.
对于巴勒斯坦人来说，这通常意味着他们接受奥斯陆会议的前提——有一天将会有两个国家并肩和平。
And if you press these moderates-- and you don't have to press hard-- a lot of them will say, yeah, of course two states.
如果你向这些温和派施压——而且不必强行施压——他们中的很多人会说，是的，当然有两个州。
And then in 20 or 30 years of peace, who knows?
然后在20年或30年的和平时期，谁知道呢？
Maybe the balance of power will change.
也许力量平衡将会改变。
Maybe the two states will become one big democracy.
也许这两个国家将成为一个大民主国家。
A democracy, as any Israeli would quickly point out, where Jews would be in the minority.
正如任何以色列人很快就会指出的那样，在民主国家，犹太人将占少数。
It would be the end of the Jewish state.
这将是犹太国家的终结。
Here's Barghouti's position.
这是巴尔古提的立场。
Mustafa Barghouti Two states.
穆斯塔法·巴尔古提 两个州。
International presence.
国际影响力。
A complete Israeli withdrawal from West Bank, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem.
以色列从约旦河西岸、加沙地带和东耶路撒冷完全撤军。
Allowing Palestinians to have a sovereign state that is demilitarized.
允许巴勒斯坦人拥有一个非军事化的主权国家。
I want to demilitarize before the Israelis.
我想在以色列人面前实现非军事化。
I don't want to see weapons in our country.
我不想在我们国家看到武器。
We've seen enough weapons in our life.
我们一生中见过足够多的武器。
That is a solution.
这是一个解决方案。
That is a vision that is doable and achievable.
这是一个可行且可以实现的愿景。
And I even have a bigger vision I don't know if it would work, but it's a dream, maybe.
我什至有一个更大的愿景，我不知道它是否会实现，但也许它是一个梦想。
I believe that one day, Jordan, Israel, and Palestine could be like a unified Benelux country.
我相信有一天，约旦、以色列和巴勒斯坦会成为一个统一的比荷卢国家。
Benelux-- the loose federation of Belgium, the Netherlands, and Luxembourg.
比荷卢经济联盟——比利时、荷兰和卢森堡的松散联邦。
The three countries, I mean, they need each other.
我的意思是，这三个国家彼此需要。
They will have, the three together, bigger space.
他们三个在一起将拥有更大的空间。
This will be the best solution of solving water problems.
这将是解决水问题的最佳方案。
This will solve immediately the issue of refugees, because it will be free movement for everybody.
这将立即解决难民问题，因为每个人都可以自由流动。
And they will have a shared future and a shared vision.
他们将拥有共同的未来和共同的愿景。
If the Israelis wanted to view this Benelux scheme in a glass half full sort of way, they could see it as similar to a plan former Israeli Prime Minister Shimon Peres has floated in the past.
如果以色列人想以半满的方式看待这个比荷卢计划，他们可能会认为它与以色列前总理西蒙·佩雷斯过去提出的计划类似。
On the other hand, they could choose to see it as a Trojan horse with the goal of eroding borders and flooding Israel with Palestinian refugees.
另一方面，他们可以选择将其视为特洛伊木马，其目的是侵蚀边界并使巴勒斯坦难民涌入以色列。
A way of sneaking the destruction of Israel into the conversation rather than openly calling for it.
这是一种将以色列的毁灭偷偷带入谈话中的方式，而不是公开呼吁这样做。
Barghouti is in a meeting, so Rula and I are hanging out the window at his office, watching people hurry home before curfew.
巴尔古蒂正在开会，所以鲁拉和我在他办公室的窗外闲逛，看着人们在宵禁前匆匆回家。
We're reading graffiti on the buildings across the street.
我们正在阅读街对面建筑物上的涂鸦。
The graffiti says-- OK.
涂鸦上写着——好吧。
Put your ten fingers on the button that fires the gun.
将十个手指放在开枪的按钮上。
I don't know what you call it.
我不知道你怎么称呼它。
The trigger Rula Halawani The trigger, yeah.
扳机 Rula Halawani 扳机，是的。
Put your ten fingers on the trigger.
将十根手指放在扳机上。
Hamas is more popular now than it's ever been.
哈马斯现在比以往任何时候都更受欢迎。
The latest polls show it running neck and neck with Arafat's Fatah movement.
最新的民意调查显示，它与阿拉法特的法塔赫运动并驾齐驱。
Both get around 25%.
两者都获得约25%。
Hamas leaders are seen as incorruptible-- driven by commitment to Islam, not a desire for personal gain.
哈马斯领导人被认为是廉洁的——他们的驱动力是对伊斯兰教的承诺，而不是对个人利益的渴望。
Hamas also helps people rebuild homes that have been demolished by the Israelis, gives money to start small businesses, runs schools and youth centers.
哈马斯还帮助人们重建被以色列人拆毁的房屋，提供资金创办小企业，经营学校和青年中心。
Hamas gained support for its suicide missions by making people's lives better.
哈马斯通过改善人们的生活来为其自杀任务赢得支持。
Barghouti believes he can take on Hamas and win, because his strengths are Hamas' strengths.
巴尔古提相信他能够对抗哈马斯并获胜，因为他的优势就是哈马斯的优势。
He and the network of nongovernmental aid organizations he's part of.
他和他所属的非政府援助组织网络。
He's on the ground, helping people, every day, with medical care and other social services.
他每天都在现场为人们提供医疗保健和其他社会服务。
He's also seen as not corrupt, as clean.
他也被认为没有腐败，而且很干净。
His medical relief organization is nonprofit, all-volunteer, and gets audited regularly.
他的医疗救援组织是非营利性的，全是志愿者，并定期接受审计。
a computer technician I met told me, you can tell he's claimed by the car he drives.
我遇到的一位计算机技术人员告诉我，你可以从他驾驶的汽车看出他被认领了。
A 1989 Opel Cadet.
一辆 1989 款欧宝 Cadet。
Palestinian Authority ministers drive Mercedes and BMWs.
巴勒斯坦权力机构部长驾驶奔驰和宝马。
His Achilles' heel with Hamas is that they're religious.
他对哈马斯的致命弱点是他们有宗教信仰。
He's secular.
他是世俗的。
He won't say whether he'll run for president or some other office in the January elections Arafat has promised.
他没有透露是否会在阿拉法特承诺的一月份选举中竞选总统或其他职位。
But Rula and I do a small survey anyway.
但无论如何，鲁拉和我做了一个小调查。
At the checkpoint, we ask people who say they think Barghouti is a good man whether they would vote for him in an election.
在检查站，我们询问那些自称认为巴尔古提是个好人的人是否会在选举中投票给他。
Their answers surprised us.
他们的回答让我们感到惊讶。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Man 8 [SPEAKING ARABIC]
[阿拉伯语] 男人 8 [阿拉伯语]
Of course.
当然。
What does he think of Arafat?
他对阿拉法特有何看法？
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Rula Halawani Arafat is our father, Arafat is our symbol, and I would vote for Arafat if he runs for election again.
[阿拉伯语]鲁拉·哈拉瓦尼·阿拉法特是我们的父亲，阿拉法特是我们的象征，如果阿拉法特再次竞选，我会投票给他。
If he was running and Mustafa Barghouti was running against him, who would he vote for?
如果他参加竞选，而穆斯塔法·巴尔古蒂（Mustafa Barghouti）与他竞争，他会投票给谁？
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Man 8 [SPEAKING ARABIC]
[阿拉伯语] 男人 8 [阿拉伯语]
[SPEAKING ARABIC]?
[说阿拉伯语]？
Man 8 [SPEAKING ARABIC]
男人 8 [阿拉伯语]
Nobody can do the job besides Yasser Arafat.
除了亚西尔·阿拉法特之外，没有人能胜任这项工作。
Arafat is the symbol.
阿拉法特就是一个象征。
He is the father of the Palestinian people.
他是巴勒斯坦人民的父亲。
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Hamas?
[说阿拉伯语] 哈马斯？
Man 8 [SPEAKING ARABIC]
男人 8 [阿拉伯语]
It's a good movement.
这是一个很好的运动。
Nancy Updike If it was a choice between a Hamas person and Mustafa Barghouti, who would he pick?
南希·厄普代克 如果要在哈马斯人和穆斯塔法·巴尔古蒂之间做出选择，他会选择谁？
Hamas?
哈马斯？
Why?
为什么？
[SPEAKING ARABIC] Man 8 [SPEAKING ARABIC]
[阿拉伯语] 男人 8 [阿拉伯语]
Because they believe in our religion, and everything they do is based on our religion.
因为他们信仰我们的宗教，他们所做的一切都是基于我们的宗教。
Barghouti ran for office before, in 1996, for a seat on the legislative council.
巴尔古提曾于 1996 年竞选公职，竞选立法委员会席位。
He lost by a very narrow margin to Marwan Barghouti.
他以微弱的优势输给了马尔万·巴尔古提 (Marwan Barghouti)。
The results were contested and widely seen as fixed.
结果存在争议，并且普遍认为是固定的。
The time between now and January is an eternity, politically speaking.
从政治上来说，从现在到一月的时间是永恒的。
It's even possible that Arafat won't run.
阿拉法特甚至有可能不会参选。
Almost anything can happen.
几乎任何事情都有可能发生。
Nancy Updike.
南希·厄普代克。
Credits Ira Glass Some of the music for our today was created for us by Stuart Rosenberg and Barb Wertico.
感谢 Ira Glass 今天的一些音乐是由 Stuart Rosenberg 和 Barb Wertico 为我们创作的。
Visit our website this week.
本周请访问我们的网站。
Visit for links to some amazing journalism about Israel.
访问有关以色列的一些精彩新闻的链接。
www.thisamericanlife.org.
www.thisamericanlife.org。
You can also listen to our program for free there, or order a tape
您还可以在那里免费收听我们的节目，或订购磁带
This American Life comes you from the city of Chicago, Richard M.
《美国生活》来自芝加哥市，理查德·M.
Daley, mayor.
戴利，市长。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
Funding for our show comes from the listeners of WBEZ Chicago.
我们的节目的资金来自 WBEZ 芝加哥的听众。
WBEZ management oversight by Torey Malatia, who wants to take this time to introduce you the man who will be hosting our show from now on--
WBEZ 的管理监督由 Torey Malatia 负责，他想借此机会向您介绍从现在起将主持我们节目的人——
He's the assistant of the head of the coalition, Mr. Ze'ev Boim.
他是联盟主席泽夫·博伊姆先生的助手。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。