215: Ask An Expert - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #215 | June 14, 2002 215: Ask An Expert Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 215 集 | 2002 年 6 月 14 日 215：请教专家 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass Tom are you there?
序言 艾拉·格拉斯 汤姆 你在吗？
Yes, indeed.
是的，确实如此。
Ira Glass OK.
艾拉·格拉斯 好的。
So repeat after me, from WBEZ Chicago.
请跟我重复一遍，来自 WBEZ 芝加哥。
From WBEZ Chicago.
来自 WBEZ 芝加哥。
Ira Glass And Public Radio International.
艾拉·格拉斯和国际公共广播电台。
What pros you are.
你有多专业。
OK, here's the set up.
好的，这是设置。
In a studio in Boston, the host of NPR's Car Talk , Tom and Ray Maggliozi, experts in car repair and owners of their own car repair garage in Cambridge.
在波士顿的一个工作室里，NPR 汽车谈话节目的主持人 Tom 和 Ray Maggliozi 是汽车维修专家，也是剑桥汽车维修店的所有者。
In the This American Life studio in Chicago, me.
在芝加哥的“This American Life”工作室里，我。
And in a studio in New York City, a former employee of the Car Guys radio show, Joe Richman.
在纽约市的一间工作室里，汽车人广播节目的前雇员乔·里奇曼 (Joe Richman)。
Who once turned to these national experts for help with his own car.
他曾经向这些国家专家寻求自己的汽车的帮助。
But as we all know, sometimes the experts screw up.
但众所周知，专家有时会搞砸。
Joe, what was your exact job at Car Talk ?
乔，你在 Car Talk 的具体工作是什么？
I edited the show.
我编辑了这个节目。
They would do the show live in Boston, and then I would kind of package it for the national show.
他们会在波士顿现场演出，然后我会把它打包到全国演出中。
I do remember-- I have this image of you, Joe, sitting there on the other side of the glass, looking very studied.
我确实记得——我有一张你的照片，乔，坐在玻璃的另一边，看上去很认真。
Like you were concentrating on the parts that you have to cut out.
就像你专注于必须剪掉的部分一样。
Making mental notes as you went along.
边做边做心里笔记。
That won't do.
那不行。
No, that's going to have to go too.
不，那也必须去。
When I was living in Boston I had this '72 Plymouth Valiant.
当我住在波士顿时，我拥有这辆 72 年的普利茅斯英勇队。
Slant-6 engine.
Slant-6 发动机。
It was red with a black top.
它是红色的，上衣是黑色的。
Now, Joe, your mother had a special feeling about this particular car.
现在，乔，你的母亲对这辆特殊的汽车有一种特殊的感觉。
Well.
出色地。
OK.
好的。
I guess the thing was, my mom kept saying that I wasn't going to find a girlfriend until I got rid of the car.
我想事情是这样的，我妈妈一直说，除非我把车扔掉，否则我不会找到女朋友。
I'm not sure.
我不知道。
I think she felt that there was a little too much obsession with the car.
我认为她觉得对汽车有点过于痴迷了。
The car was just too big a part of my life.
汽车在我生活中占据了太大的一部分。
Now, what does that mean, too big a part of your life?
现在，这意味着什么，你生活的一部分太大了？
You were spending too much time thinking about the car?
您花了太多时间考虑汽车吗？
Loving the car?
爱车吗？
Fixing the car?
修车吗？
At this point I didn't have a lot of friends.
那时我没有很多朋友。
I drove the car around a lot.
我开着车绕了很多圈。
I paid attention to the car.
我注意了车子。
was kind of-- I wrote a song about the car.
有点——我写了一首关于汽车的歌。
It was that kind of a thing.
就是这样的事情。
Yeah, I wrote a song about it.
是的，我写了一首关于它的歌。
I actually, I looked for the lyrics.
其实我是想找歌词的
Well, can we hear it?
嗯，我们能听到吗？
Joe Richman I looked for the lyrics, I couldn't find them.
乔·里奇曼 我找过歌词，但找不到。
Joe, do you remember any of the song at all?
乔，你还记得这首歌吗？
You must remember the chorus.
你一定记得副歌。
Ray Maggliozi Yeah.
雷·马格利奥齐 是的。
Give us a line or two.
请给我们一两行。
You don't have to sing it, maybe you could just recite the words.
你不必唱它，也许你可以背诵歌词。
Basically, the song was sort of about this issue.
基本上，这首歌就是关于这个问题的。
Can I have a girlfriend if I've got the car?
有了车我还能交女朋友吗？
Ah.
啊。
Ira Glass In fact, I know from talking to Joe that at the time, Tom and Ray knew what Joe's mother thought about this, and agreed with her.
Ira Glass 事实上，我从和 Joe 的交谈中得知，当时 Tom 和 Ray 都知道 Joe 妈妈对此的想法，并且同意她的观点。
As long as he had the car, he would never get a girl.
只要他有车，他就永远找不到女孩。
And then, the car started to have big troubles.
然后，汽车开始出现大问题。
Just to let you know what time period this was, everyone has started to call it the Plymouth Valdez.
只是为了让你知道这是什么时期，每个人都开始称其为普利茅斯瓦尔迪兹。
That's around the time--
就在这个时候——
Around 1989, 1990.
1989年、1990年左右。
Joe Richman Thank you.
乔·里奇曼谢谢你。
Well, I asked Ray about the car.
好吧，我向雷询问了这辆车的情况。
And I said, you know, it was burning a lot of oil.
我说，你知道，它烧了很多油。
And basically he said, we'll do a ring job.
基本上他说，我们会做一个环形工作。
I don't know if we can fix it.
我不知道我们是否可以修复它。
And it was that kind of thing where, you know, am I throwing money away?
就是这样的事情，你知道，我是在扔钱吗？
Should I just put money into a new car?
我应该把钱投入一辆新车吗？
But, of course, you don't do that when you have a '72 Plymouth Valiant, right?
但是，当然，当您拥有一辆'72 Plymouth Valiant 时，您就不会这样做，对吗？
So I decided to take a chance.
所以我决定冒险一试。
So anyway I got the car back and that-- I guess that was about-- Ray, what would you-- was that about $600 back then would you say?
所以无论如何，我把车拿回来了——我猜那是关于——雷，你会怎么做——你觉得当时大约是 600 美元吗？
Not only-- it didn't really fix the problem and, in fact, that kind of initiated the steep decline of the car where it kind of never recovered.
不仅如此，它并没有真正解决问题，事实上，这引发了汽车的急剧下滑，而且从未恢复过。
We did a valve job.
我们做了阀门工作。
And I am sure I warned you in advance that it might not work.
我确信我已经提前警告过你这可能行不通。
You did.
你做到了。
You said, this might not do it.
你说，这可能不行。
And you could be throwing your money away.
你可能会浪费你的钱。
And that's what--
就是这样——
Not really throwing it away.
并不是真的扔掉。
You were giving it to my brother.
你把它给了我兄弟。
And my kids were in college at the time, and these things happen.
当时我的孩子们正在上大学，这些事情就发生了。
Let's just call it a cash transfer.
我们姑且称之为现金转移吧。
So Ray sent this car spiraling toward its grave.
于是雷让这辆车螺旋式地驶向坟墓。
It only took a few weeks, Joe says.
乔说，只花了几周的时间。
It's like the car slowly dissolved into dust.
就像汽车慢慢地化为尘土。
Like a vampire stake through the heart.
就像一根吸血鬼木桩穿过心脏。
And, just a few weeks after the car died, Joe started dating.
而且，汽车报废后几周，乔开始约会。
And if you ask Ray today if he killed Joe's car intentionally, knowing that Joe would end up with a girlfriend if he did that, Ray will only say that that is something that he is certainly capable of doing.
如果你今天问雷，他是否故意撞坏了乔的车，并且知道如果他这样做，乔最终会得到一个女朋友，雷只会说他当然有能力做到这一点。
Which is the way it goes when you go to an expert.
当你去找专家时，情况就是这样。
Sometimes they will ignore what you want, and do whatever they want to do.
有时他们会忽略你想要的，而做他们想做的事。
And then sometimes they just fail.
有时他们只是失败了。
Maybe that's what happened.
也许这就是发生的事情。
Ray says that when you go to a mechanic, the chances that they will give you solid, honest advice, real advice, and not try to rip you off, and not accidentally screw things up in some way, he says the odds of that are actually pretty bad.
雷说，当你去找机械师时，他们会给你可靠、诚实的建议，真正的建议，而不是试图敲诈你，也不会意外地以某种方式把事情搞砸，他说这种可能性实际上非常低。
Oh I think you're way below 50% in that regard.
哦，我认为你在这方面还远低于50%。
No seriously.
不，认真的。
I think even well-intentioned mechanics are going to give you the wrong advice half the time.
我认为即使是善意的机械师也有一半时间会给你错误的建议。
I would think more by accident than by mal intent.
我会更多地出于偶然而不是恶意地思考。
You haven't been around the shop much lately.
你最近没怎么逛商店。
Experts give bad advice all the time.
专家总是给出不好的建议。
And so we devote our radio program today to stories of people getting terrible advice from specialists who supposedly know better.
因此，我们今天的广播节目主要讲述人们从自认为更了解的专家那里得到糟糕建议的故事。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Our program today in two acts.
我们今天的节目分两幕。
Act One, "An Epidemic Created by Doctors." In that act, the story of how thousands of people went to psychotherapists who, with the best of intentions, administered a kind of therapy that just made these people worse, not better.
第一幕，“医生制造的流行病”。在那一幕中，讲述了成千上万的人如何去找心理治疗师，心理治疗师怀着最好的意图，进行了一种治疗，但这只让这些人变得更糟，而不是更好。
Act Two, "Not Stella Adler, just Stellllaaah." In that act, a glimpse of Marlon Brando's series of instructional videos about acting called Lying for a Living.
第二幕，“不是斯特拉·阿德勒，只是斯特拉拉。”在那一幕中，我们瞥见了马龙·白兰度的一系列表演教学视频，名为《以谎言谋生》。
They have yet to be released, we get a sneak preview.
它们尚未发布，我们可以先睹为快。
Does being a great actor make you a great acting teacher?
成为一名出色的演员是否就能成为一名出色的表演老师？
I bet if you had guessed the answer to that question right now, you would guess right.
我敢打赌，如果您现在就猜到了这个问题的答案，那么您一定会猜对。
But stay with us.
但请留在我们身边。
Act one, "An Epidemic Created by Doctors." In the early 1990s, people across America turned to experts in psychology for help.
第一幕，“医生制造的流行病”。 20 世纪 90 年代初，美国各地的人们向心理学专家寻求帮助。
And many people were told that the source of their problems could be traced to traumatic events that they could not even remember.
许多人被告知，他们的问题根源可以追溯到他们甚至不记得的创伤事件。
To memories that had to be recovered through special techniques.
必须通过特殊技术才能恢复的记忆。
This was the recovered memory movement.
这就是恢复记忆的动作。
These days, this whole approach to psychology has fallen out of favor.
如今，整个心理学方法已经不再受欢迎。
There were a series of well-publicized cases, and multimillion dollar lawsuits against therapists by patients who had been led to remember instances of child abuse and satanic worship that simply never had occurred.
有一系列广为人知的案件，以及患者对治疗师提起的价值数百万美元的诉讼，这些患者被引导回忆起从未发生过的虐待儿童和撒旦崇拜的事件。
At this point, the American Psychological Association and the American Psychiatric Association have both concluded that buried memories like this are rare.
至此，美国心理学会和美国精神病学协会都得出结论，像这样被埋藏的记忆很少见。
And treatment to recover these memories should be viewed with skepticism.
应该对恢复这些记忆的治疗持怀疑态度。
Testimony based on recovered memories is now difficult to enter in court cases.
基于恢复记忆的证词现在很难进入法庭案件。
Malpractice insurance often doesn't protect therapists if they do this kind of therapy.
如果治疗师进行此类治疗，医疗事故保险通常无法保护他们。
And, in retrospect, it feels like therapists accidentally unleashed a kind of epidemic.
回想起来，感觉就像治疗师不小心引发了一种流行病。
Doing people more harm than good.
对人来说弊大于利。
So what happened?
那么发生了什么？
That so many experts came to believe in a treatment that turned out to make so many other patients worse?
这么多专家开始相信一种治疗方法，结果却让许多其他患者病情恶化？
And what happened when the patients and the therapists figured it all out?
当患者和治疗师弄清楚这一切后，发生了什么？
Alix Spiegel put together this story.
阿利克斯·斯皮格尔整理了这个故事。
A warning to listeners with small children that it mentions sex and child abuse.
警告有小孩的听众，其中提到了性和虐待儿童。
Alix's story begins with one patient, and a simple question.
阿利克斯的故事从一名病人和一个简单的问题开始。
How did it happen?
它是怎么发生的？
In a simple, practical way, how could an expert lead a patient to believe all sorts of horrible things about his or her own life which never happened at all?
用一种简单、实用的方式来说，一个专家怎么可能引导病人相信他或她自己生活中从未发生过的各种可怕的事情呢？
Here's how it happened to Beth Rutherford.
这就是贝丝·卢瑟福的遭遇。
She was 19.
她19岁。
A student nurse working on a cancer ward.
一名在癌症病房工作的实习护士。
Surrounded by men who bled through every opening on their bodies.
周围都是男人，他们身上的每一个伤口都在流血。
By old women who died alone in the middle of the night.
半夜孤独死去的老妇人。
She found herself struggling with depression.
她发现自己正在与抑郁症作斗争。
This feeling that life was somehow thin and flat.
这种感觉生活在某种程度上是单薄而平淡的。
Her parents were concerned.
她的父母很担心。
They suggested that she talk to a therapist.
他们建议她与治疗师交谈。
There was one at their church they thought might be good.
他们认为他们教堂里有一个可能不错的人。
Beth's father actually made the call.
贝丝的父亲确实打了电话。
This first visit was productive.
第一次访问富有成果。
The woman allowed Beth to talk about her experiences in a way that made Beth feel better.
这位女士允许贝丝以一种让贝丝感觉更好的方式谈论她的经历。
She seemed kind, sensible.
她看上去很善良、懂事。
Beth emerged after an hour feeling calmer, but was told to schedule a follow-up appointment, just to be safe.
一个小时后，贝丝感到平静一些，但为了安全起见，她被告知要安排后续预约。
Four weeks later, when Beth returned, she was doing fine.
四个星期后，当贝丝回来时，她一切都很好。
In fact, she was doing so well that after half an hour she actually ran out of cancer ward material.
事实上，她的情况非常好，半小时后她实际上就用完了癌症病房的材料。
And then, it's kind of like we had nothing left to talk about.
然后，我们就好像没什么可谈的了。
But we had some time left over on my appointment time with her.
但我们和她的约会时间还剩一些时间。
So she asked me, is there anything else that you want to talk about?
于是她问我，你还有什么想聊的吗？
And I said, no, no. That's kind of it.
我说，不，不。就是这样。
I can't think of anything.
我想不出什么。
And so she said, well, you know are you sure?
所以她说，好吧，你确定吗？
This is kind of your time.
这是你的时间。
So if you can think of something.
所以如果你能想到一些事情。
And I said, well, you know, I kind of do have these funny dreams sometimes.
我说，嗯，你知道，我有时确实会做一些有趣的梦。
And she said, well, what do you dream about?
她说，好吧，你的梦想是什么？
And so I said, I always have these dreams, these horrific dreams where my dad's coming after me and sending bears after me, and we're just hollering at each other.
所以我说，我总是做这些梦，这些可怕的梦，梦见我爸爸追赶我，派出熊追赶我，而我们只是互相大喊大叫。
Beth explained that she and her father had a good relationship.
贝丝解释说，她和父亲的关系很好。
Which is why these dreams always puzzled her.
这就是为什么这些梦总是让她困惑。
In her waking life, they rarely fought.
在她清醒的时候，他们很少吵架。
She then stopped me and she said to me, has anything ever happened to you?
然后她拦住了我，对我说，你有发生什么事吗？
As a child?
作为一个孩子？
And she said by way of, like a sexual nature, where you were touched inappropriately or those kind of things.
她说，就像性本质一样，你被不恰当地触摸或诸如此类的事情。
And I said, oh no. Absolutely not.
我说，哦不。绝对不是。
And she said, well, usually people who have been abused by somebody-- these kind of dreams that you're having are indicative of having been abused.
她说，嗯，通常是那些被别人虐待过的人——你做的这种梦表明你受到了虐待。
Of course, then that's when we hit our 15-minute time limit, or whatever we had left.
当然，那时我们就达到了 15 分钟的时间限制，或者剩下的任何时间。
And she says, well, I want you to go home and I want you to think.
她说，好吧，我想让你回家，我想让你好好想想。
And see if you can remember anything.
看看你是否能记住任何事情。
So I went home.
于是我回家了。
And, again, I don't remember anything.
再说一遍，我什么都不记得了。
I was 100% confident.
我百分百有信心。
I knew nothing had happened to me.
我知道我什么也没发生。
And my concern was, I didn't want to leave any doubt in her mind-- because she knew my mom and dad-- wondering if they had done something to me.
我担心的是，我不想在她心里留下任何疑问——因为她认识我的父母——想知道他们是否对我做了什么。
So, anyway, we make the third appointment.
所以，无论如何，我们进行了第三次约会。
And I go in.
我进去了。
I said, I've thought about this stuff and I can't think of anything.
我说，我想过这个问题，想不出什么办法。
And again, she started, well, are you sure?
她又开始问，好吧，你确定吗？
And then she explained to me that it is possible to have things happen to you and forget about them.
然后她向我解释说，有些事情发生在你身上，然后你就可以忘记它们。
And that you can have these horrific things done to you, and be a part of things and that you don't remember it.
你可能会经历这些可怕的事情，成为事情的一部分，而你却不记得了。
That's your body's way of coping.
这是你身体的应对方式。
This therapist, Beth reasoned, was a professional.
贝丝推断，这位治疗师是一位专业人士。
Someone with training.
受过训练的人。
Perhaps she knew something about Beth that Beth did not know herself.
也许她对贝丝了解一些贝丝自己都不了解的事情。
Her therapist, by the way, declined to be interviewed for this story.
顺便说一句，她的治疗师拒绝就这个故事接受采访。
But anyway, I should tell you that it took a long time-- 18 months-- for Beth to believe that she'd been sexually abused.
但无论如何，我应该告诉你，贝丝花了很长时间——18 个月——才相信自己受到了性虐待。
This process began simply, with a detailed review of her childhood.
这个过程很简单，是对她童年的详细回顾。
And it was during these conversations that Beth's therapist would offer new interpretations of the ordinary facts of Beth's life.
正是在这些谈话中，贝丝的治疗师会对贝丝生活中的平凡事实提供新的解释。
When Beth told her therapist, for example, that her parents had encouraged her to do well in school, her therapist suggested that perhaps this was done out of guilt.
例如，当贝丝告诉她的治疗师，她的父母鼓励她在学校取得好成绩时，她的治疗师表示，也许这是出于内疚。
Was it possible they were trying to cover for some harm they'd done her?
他们有没有可能试图掩盖他们对她造成的伤害？
The therapist didn't know either, she was just asking.
治疗师也不知道，她只是问问。
Beth, who was living at home to save money, began to avoid her family.
为了省钱而住在家里的贝丝开始躲避家人。
She spent more time in her room.
她在自己的房间里度过了更多的时间。
And then I was given books to read about stories of people that had been abused.
然后我得到了一些书来阅读有关被虐待者的故事。
And she'd actually pick out certain chapters for me to read.
她实际上会挑选某些章节让我阅读。
And it began obviously to preoccupy a lot of my time, thinking about this.
显然，我开始花很多时间思考这个问题。
Trying so hard to remember if something had happened.
努力回忆是否发生过什么事。
And I couldn't remember, and I'd try to think even more.
我记不清了，我会试着想得更多。
And anyway, reading this material, reading these books, I began to dream a lot.
不管怎样，读了这些材料，读了这些书，我开始做很多梦。
So part of our therapy sessions then would be, I would go in and tell her what I had dreamed.
因此，我们治疗课程的一部分是，我会进去告诉她我的梦想。
Well, then I was told, no Beth, those aren't dreams.
好吧，然后有人告诉我，不，贝丝，那些不是梦。
They are flashbacks of what happened.
它们是所发生事件的闪回。
This idea, that dreams were not simply dreams, but could actually represent accurate memories, was an article of faith in repressed memory therapy.
梦不仅仅是梦，而且实际上可以代表准确的记忆，这一观点是压抑记忆疗法的一个信念。
Now therapists are cautioned against it, but at the time it was one of a series of beliefs and techniques used to interpret and access buried trauma.
现在，治疗师被警告不要这样做，但当时它是用于解释和访问埋藏的创伤的一系列信念和技术之一。
A series of beliefs and techniques which hinged on a single psychiatric idea.
一系列的信念和技术取决于单一的精神病学理念。
Namely, that it was possible to experience profound trauma-- rape, sodomy, forced cannibalism-- and to erase all memory of those events from the conscious mind.
也就是说，有可能经历深刻的创伤——强奸、鸡奸、强迫同类相食——并从意识中抹去这些事件的所有记忆。
When I called the American Psychological Association to ask for an expert who could explain how psychologists viewed the recovered memory movement today, I was referred to Michael Yapko, a practicing clinician who wrote a book about recovered memory therapy.
当我打电话给美国心理学会寻求一位专家来解释心理学家如何看待当今的恢复记忆运动时，我被推荐给迈克尔·雅普科（Michael Yapko），他是一位执业临床医生，写了一本关于恢复记忆疗法的书。
He describes what went wrong this way.
他这样描述出了什么问题。
What this whole repressed memory controversy was fueled by were those clinicians who would have a client come to them in some form of distress.
这场关于压抑记忆的争论之所以激起，是因为那些临床医生会让客户在某种形式的痛苦中来找他们。
And it was the therapist who presupposed a history of abuse, and would literally say to the patient, I believe that you've been abused as a child and that's what explains your symptoms.
治疗师预设了受虐史，并对患者说，我相信你小时候受过虐待，这就是你的症状的原因。
Then the patient would say, well, that never happened to me.
然后病人会说，好吧，这从来没有发生在我身上。
And then the therapist would nod his or her head and smile knowingly and say, well, you know, that's how repression works.
然后治疗师会点头并会意地微笑并说，好吧，你知道，这就是压抑的运作方式。
You're obviously repressing those memories of abuse.
你显然在压抑那些受虐待的记忆。
We need to use these techniques, like guided imagery, hypnosis, whatever, to get at those memories and bring them forth.
我们需要使用这些技术，比如意象引导、催眠等等，来获取这些记忆并把它们带出来。
And that's the only way that you will recover.
这是你康复的唯一方法。
The problem with these techniques, Yapko says, is that they didn't bring back accurate memories.
亚普科说，这些技术的问题在于它们没有带回准确的记忆。
Memory is vulnerable to suggestion.
记忆很容易受到暗示的影响。
And not only could benign questions from a therapist contaminate the memories, the simple act of telling someone to try to remember could lead them to create details which simply weren't real.
治疗师提出的良性问题不仅会污染记忆，告诉某人尝试回忆的简单行为也可能导致他们创造出根本不真实的细节。
But these techniques were taught anyway in schools of psychiatry and psychology, in continuing education programs.
但无论如何，这些技术都是在精神病学和心理学学校的继续教育项目中教授的。
There was massage to unleash body memories, hypnosis, and also guided imagery where patients like Beth were told to relax, to imagine themselves as a child.
有释放身体记忆的按摩、催眠，还有引导意象，让像贝丝这样的患者放松，想象自己小时候的样子。
I can remember, I'd kind of bend my head down a little bit.
我记得，我会稍微低下头。
And I'm thinking and she'd talk to me.
我在想她会跟我说话。
OK, now, think about where you were as a child.
好吧，现在，想想你小时候在哪里。
OK, think about sitting on your bed.
好吧，想想坐在床上。
So I'm thinking, thinking.
所以我在想，想。
OK, now what are you wearing?
好吧，现在你穿什么？
So I'm thinking, thinking.
所以我在想，想。
What's an outfit I can remember wearing as a child?
我记得小时候穿过的衣服是什么？
And then you just build on that, and build on it.
然后你就以此为基础，再接再厉。
And what did that feel like.
那感觉怎么样？
You know, it's kind of like you have a little half teaspoon of memory, so to speak.
你知道，可以这么说，这有点像你有半茶匙的记忆。
That little half teaspoon turns into a whole three tiered cake.
那小半茶匙变成了整个三层蛋糕。
It was during these guided imagery sessions that Beth began to blank out.
正是在这些引导想象的过程中，贝丝开始陷入空白。
To lose conscious memory of portions of her therapy sessions.
失去对部分治疗过程的有意识记忆。
Concentrating so hard on the images she was conjuring that she worked herself into a kind of hypnotic state.
她全神贯注于想象中的画面，以至于进入了一种催眠状态。
I remember the first time it happened, it scared me to death, because I kind of looked up to her.
我记得第一次发生这种事时，我吓死了，因为我有点尊敬她。
And she said to me, do you know what just happened?
她对我说，你知道刚刚发生了什么吗？
I said, no, what?
我说，不，什么？
And she said, you just recounted for me a story of what had happened to.
她说，你刚才给我讲了一个发生的故事。
What your dad had done.
你爸爸做了什么。
And she has a piece of paper.
她有一张纸。
And she's told me she wrote down everything I said.
她告诉我她写下了我所说的一切。
And then she started, and she began to read back to me.
然后她开始读给我听。
I can hardly describe the horror, to sit there and listen to that.
我几乎无法描述坐在那儿听那件事的恐惧。
She's saying I said it.
她说的是我说的。
She's reading it to me, as I described an event where my dad had brought me to my mom and his bedroom and laid down next to me.
她正在给我读这本书，我描述了一件事情，我爸爸把我带到我妈妈和他的卧室，躺在我旁边。
She's describing, and it was so horrifying.
她正在描述，这真是太可怕了。
I can't hardly describe for somebody what it's like to believe that you have been loved as a child, and you grew up in a wonderful home.
我很难向别人描述相信自己小时候被爱、在一个美好的家庭长大是什么感觉。
And to sit there and listen.
并坐在那里聆听。
And it's literally like the foundation of your life is coming apart.
从字面上看，这就像你生活的基础正在分崩离析。
I became a therapist because I wanted to help people.
我成为一名治疗师是因为我想帮助人们。
Linda Ross graduated with a master's in counseling in 1986, but most of her training in recovered memory therapy took place after that, in the continuing education seminars she took to keep current.
琳达·罗斯 (Linda Ross) 于 1986 年毕业，获得了咨询硕士学位，但她的大部分恢复记忆治疗培训都是在那之后进行的，她参加了继续教育研讨会，以保持最新状态。
These classes provided long list of possible symptoms.
这些课程提供了一长串可能的症状。
Gave tutorials in guided imagery, in dreams, body memories.
提供有关意象引导、梦境、身体记忆的教程。
All the modern thinking.
都是现代思维。
Because Linda felt she was in a field of study that was scientifically based, she assumed these ideas had been properly researched and tested.
因为琳达认为她所处的研究领域是有科学依据的，所以她认为这些想法已经过适当的研究和测试。
That her responsibility was simply to follow them faithfully, which Linda did.
她的责任只是忠实地跟随他们，琳达也做到了。
After graduation, she began working for an agency near her home.
毕业后，她开始在她家附近的一家机构工作。
She dealt with a variety of issues, but developed a sub-specialty in sexual abuse.
她处理过各种各样的问题，但发展了性虐待方面的子专业。
And soon she was fielding referrals from half a dozen churches and social service centers in her area.
很快，她就收到了来自她所在地区的六家教堂和社会服务中心的转介。
The vast majority of these patients were women who remembered their abuse.
这些患者绝大多数是记得自己遭受虐待的女性。
But in the early 90s, Linda had a series of clients who uncovered repressed memories.
但在 90 年代初，琳达的一系列客户都发现了压抑的记忆。
Some of these memories were deeply troubling.
其中一些记忆令人深感不安。
There were stories of child pornography rings and satanic rituals.
有儿童色情团伙和撒旦仪式的故事。
And then there was a woman whose guided imagery session revealed that she had witnessed a murder.
然后有一位女士的引导图像显示她目睹了一场谋杀。
Her father had taken his preteen daughter to the woods, where he slaughtered a man and his son in cold blood while his daughter looked on.
她的父亲带着他十几岁的女儿来到树林里，在那里他冷血地屠杀了一名男子和他的儿子，而他的女儿在一旁观看。
As she was taking you through this scene, what were you thinking?
当她带你经历这个场景时，你在想什么？
I was thinking how horrible.
我当时在想多么可怕啊。
What an awful thing for a little girl to have to go through.
对于一个小女孩来说，要经历这样的事情是一件多么痛苦的事情。
You know, I had no doubt in my mind that this had happened.
你知道，我心里毫不怀疑这件事已经发生了。
Partially, Linda believed because she's been trained to believe.
琳达之所以相信，部分原因是她接受过相信的训练。
Had been told that in these delicate matters, the therapist was not supposed to question.
被告知在这些微妙的问题上，治疗师不应该提出质疑。
This above all was an unbreachable rule.
这首先是一条不可违反的规则。
And of course it's completely reinforced by the depth of her pain.
当然，她的痛苦之深完全强化了这种感觉。
It's completely reinforced by the sharpness and acuity of her memory.
她记忆力的敏锐和敏锐完全强化了这一点。
Even if I had a doubt, I wasn't going to doubt, because her memory was so sharp, her emotions were so genuine.
即使我有怀疑，我也不会怀疑，因为她的记忆力是那么敏锐，她的情感是那么真挚。
And so, she reinforced my idea in the belief of it.
因此，她更加坚定了我的信念。
And then, of course, I responded by being horrified and comforting.
然后，当然，我的反应是感到震惊和安慰。
Which reinforced her idea that I believed it.
这更加坚定了她的想法：我相信这一点。
And so I didn't see how we were a feedback loop.
所以我不明白我们是如何成为一个反馈循环的。
I didn't get that.
我没明白。
But it was more than that.
但还不止于此。
Linda believed not only because she'd been trained to believe, but because on some deep level it appealed to a romantic ideal.
琳达相信，不仅因为她接受过相信的训练，而且因为在某种程度上，它诉诸了一种浪漫的理想。
This notion she had, that she was a healer.
她有这样的观念：她是一名治疗师。
This part of me that wants to be the hero, felt like, I'm going to believe you, and I'm going to be here for you, and I'm going to be on your side, and I'm going to help you heal.
我内心想要成为英雄的那部分感觉就像是，我会相信你，我会在你身边，我会站在你一边，我会帮助你康复。
It really was appealing to sort of the best in me.
它确实吸引了我身上最好的部分。
As time went on, Beth Rutherford's memories got more and more bizarre.
随着时间的推移，贝丝·卢瑟福的记忆变得越来越离奇。
She remembered curling irons and steak forks.
她记得卷发棒和牛排叉子。
And a pregnancy which her father tried to abort with a coat hanger.
还有一次怀孕，她的父亲试图用衣架来堕胎。
Years later, she went to a doctor who confirmed, after a 15-minute examination, that Beth was actually a virgin.
多年后，她去看了一位医生，经过 15 分钟的检查，医生证实贝丝实际上是处女。
That none of this could be true.
这一切都不可能是真的。
But at the time these memories were so vivid that Beth could recall the most intimate details.
但当时这些记忆是如此清晰，贝丝都能回忆起最私密的细节。
The feel of the curling iron.
卷发棒的感觉。
The rope around her ankles.
绳子绕在她的脚踝上。
And like many patients who faced memories of this kind, Beth began to deteriorate.
和许多面临此类记忆的患者一样，贝丝的病情开始恶化。
The psychological strain taking a physical toll.
心理压力对身体造成损害。
She stopped eating and dropped to 80 pounds.
她停止进食，体重降至 80 磅。
And had trouble sleeping through the night.
并且整晚都难以入睡。
She began to take pills.
她开始吃药。
Rather than interpret Beth's sickness as a sign that the therapy wasn't working, her therapist saw the deterioration as evidence that they simply needed to work harder.
她的治疗师并没有将贝丝的病情解释为治疗无效的迹象，而是将病情恶化视为他们需要更加努力工作的证据。
In other words, the failure of recovered memory therapy to restore Beth's mental health led her therapist to pressure Beth for more memories, which undermined Beth's health further, and led to the creation of even more.
换句话说，恢复记忆疗法未能恢复贝丝的心理健康，导致她的治疗师向贝丝施加压力，要求她提供更多的记忆，这进一步损害了贝丝的健康，并导致创造出更多的记忆。
It basically became this thing that, well, you're deteriorating because you haven't been bringing up any more memories.
基本上，你的情况正在恶化，因为你没有再唤起更多的记忆。
Because there's still something there and it's bothering you.
因为还有一些事情在那里困扰着你。
And until you get it all out, and we get to the bottom of this, you're never going to get better.
除非你把一切都弄清楚，并且我们查清真相，否则你永远不会好起来。
You are always going to be like this until you get to the bottom.
你永远都会这样，直到跌入谷底。
Like most therapists trained in recovered memory, Linda Ross had been taught to expect deterioration.
和大多数接受过恢复记忆训练的治疗师一样，琳达·罗斯也被教导要做好记忆恶化的准备。
But then several of Linda's patients seemed to go into free fall.
但随后琳达的几个病人似乎陷入了自由落体状态。
It was around this time that Linda first heard of the False Memory Syndrome Foundation, an organization founded in 1992, which had become a resource for accused parents who thought that their children had been led into false beliefs through therapy.
大约在这个时候，琳达第一次听说了错误记忆综合症基金会，该组织成立于 1992 年，已成为那些认为自己的孩子通过治疗被引入错误信念的被指控父母的资源。
The parents of one of Linda's patients had come across the organization after their daughter's memories led to a police investigation.
琳达的一名患者的父母在女儿的记忆导致警方调查后发现了该组织。
And they sent Linda some brochures.
他们给琳达寄了一些小册子。
I said thank you very much.
我说非常感谢。
I took the information.
我拿走了信息。
And I said, you know, this is a place for people who have perpetrated these horrible crimes to just now hideout and pretend like these things didn't really happen.
我说，你知道，这是一个犯下这些可怕罪行的人现在藏身的地方，假装这些事情没有真正发生过。
And when I when I look at my culpability in all of this, I really count that as the place where-- you know, prior to that I had really been acting on good faith out of ignorance.
当我审视自己在这一切中的罪责时，我真的认为这是一个地方——你知道，在此之前我真的是出于无知而善意行事。
But really based on what I thought was sound counseling from the people that had trained me.
但实际上是基于我认为训练过我的人提供的合理建议。
But I had a moment there to begin to just say, well, let me look at it from another angle.
但我有一段时间开始说，好吧，让我从另一个角度来看一下。
And I very willfully chose not to.
我非常任性地选择不这样做。
Because if I chose to believe something different then it was going to mean that I had been doing something very wrong to a number of families, and I was going to have to face myself.
因为如果我选择相信不同的东西，那就意味着我对许多家庭做了非常错误的事情，我将不得不面对自己。
In fact, during the early 90s, therapists found themselves believing all kinds of stories.
事实上，在 90 年代初，治疗师发现自己相信各种各样的故事。
Stories which, on their face, now seem outrageous.
从表面上看，这些故事现在看来令人震惊。
Well-appointed, middle-class women would walk into suburban offices, close their eyes for guided imagery, and talk about being forced to watch dozens of people sacrificed in satanic rituals.
装备精良的中产阶级女性会走进郊区的办公室，闭上眼睛寻找引导图像，并谈论被迫观看数十人在撒旦仪式中被牺牲的经历。
Or being sodomized by whole police departments.
或者被整个警察部门鸡奸。
And the therapists, trained clinicians, would nod their heads in sympathy and horror.
治疗师，训练有素的临床医生，会点头表示同情和恐惧。
As Michael Yapko points out, therapists were laboring under the assumption that if something truly horrible had happened, it would be repressed.
正如迈克尔·雅普科（Michael Yapko）指出的那样，治疗师的假设是，如果发生了真正可怕的事情，它就会被压抑。
And so their acceptance of these stories makes a certain sense.
所以他们接受这些故事是有一定道理的。
And here's where a little bit of history helps.
这就是历史的一点帮助。
Literally up until the late 1970s, the viewpoint that predominated the field was that when somebody came in and reported a history of sexual abuse as a child, that this was dismissed as a psychological fantasy.
从字面上看，直到 20 世纪 70 年代末，该领域占主导地位的观点是，当有人进来报告童年性虐待的历史时，这会被视为一种心理幻想而被驳回。
And that started with Freud and it continued all the way, literally, up until the 1970s.
这从弗洛伊德开始，一直持续到 20 世纪 70 年代。
And then finally, in the 1970s, riding the wave of feminism, researchers came in and said, you know, all these women say that they were abused as children, and everybody's discounting it.
最后，在 20 世纪 70 年代，乘着女权主义的浪潮，研究人员进来并说，你知道，所有这些女性都说她们小时候受到过虐待，但每个人都对此不以为然。
Before we discount it, how about if we find out whether it's really true or not.
在我们打折之前，我们先看看它是否属实。
And then they started doing research on the prevalence of child abuse, and guess what they discovered?
然后他们开始研究虐待儿童的普遍程度，猜猜他们发现了什么？
That females were being abused and in very large numbers.
女性受到虐待，而且数量非常多。
And so, with the best of intentions, the experts came to see abuse everywhere.
因此，怀着最好的意愿，专家们发现虐待行为随处可见。
Even in people who hadn't been abused.
即使是那些没有被虐待过的人。
And their conviction, their sense of righteousness, helped convince patients like Beth Rutherford.
他们的信念和正义感帮助说服了像贝丝·卢瑟福这样的患者。
And this is one of the most disturbing aspects of these cases.
这是这些案件中最令人不安的方面之一。
That in the hands of even the most mild-mannered experts, people like Beth, normal people with normal relationships with their parents, could come to believe horrible things about the people they loved most.
即使在最温和的专家手中，像贝丝这样与父母关系正常的普通人也可能会相信他们最爱的人的可怕事情。
I didn't want to believe that that had happened to me.
我不想相信那件事发生在我身上。
It's something that came from the therapy and it was-- and I was told I had to do this or I was never going to get better.
这是来自治疗的东西，而且我被告知我必须这样做，否则我永远不会好起来。
If I didn't do this, I was going to do it to my own children.
如果我不这样做，我就会对我自己的孩子这样做。
And I remember her, so to speak, complimenting me and congratulating me on being the person that's breaking this cycle in my family.
我记得她，可以这么说，称赞我并祝贺我成为打破家庭循环的人。
After two and a half years of breaking the cycle, Beth's therapist began to pressure Beth to go public.
在打破这个循环两年半后，贝丝的治疗师开始向贝丝施压，要求她公开此事。
To formally accuse her father, who was then working as an administrator at the Assembly of God headquarters, the same church where Beth's therapist worked as a counselor.
正式指控她的父亲，当时她的父亲在神召会总部担任行政人员，贝丝的治疗师在同一座教堂担任辅导员。
For weeks, Beth resisted.
几周来，贝丝一直在抵制。
She'd never confronted her parents, had simply emotionally withdrawn from the family.
她从未面对过父母，只是在情感上退出了家庭。
But Beth's therapist wouldn't give up.
但贝丝的治疗师不会放弃。
And so one Wednesday in October, three years after her therapy began, Beth arrived at her session and was presented with a document and a choice.
因此，在十月的一个星期三，贝丝开始接受治疗三年后，她来到了她的治疗中心，并收到了一份文件和一个选择。
She could either sign a formal accusation of her father, which would be submitted to the denominational authority, or all the files in Beth's case would be given to the local district attorney, a man who would prosecute her father to the full extent of the law.
她可以签署一份对她父亲的正式指控，将其提交给教派当局，或者将贝丝案件中的所有档案交给当地地区检察官，后者将在法律允许的范围内起诉她的父亲。
Given these options, Beth signed the paper.
考虑到这些选择，贝丝签署了该文件。
And several weeks later, her dad lost his job, and was ordered to appear at a church hearing.
几周后，她的父亲失业了，并被命令出席教堂听证会。
And we sit down.
我们坐下来。
And they greet us.
他们向我们打招呼。
We greet them.
我们向他们打招呼。
And probably three minutes passed, and he is reading a statement to me.
大概三分钟过去了，他正在给我读一份声明。
"Tom, it has been brought to our attention"-- I have a copy of it-- "that one of your daughters is alleging that she has been sexually molested as a child growing up in your home."
“汤姆，我们已经注意到了”——我有一份副本——“你的一个女儿声称，她小时候在你家里长大，受到过性骚扰。”
There's actually a long and sad story to tell about these proceedings and the meetings which followed.
关于这些程序和随后的会议，实际上有一个漫长而悲伤的故事要讲。
It's a story of public humiliation and pain, the kind of narrative most likely familiar to anyone who's followed the coverage of false memory incidents over the last 10 years.
这是一个关于公开羞辱和痛苦的故事，对于过去十年来关注错误记忆事件报道的人来说，这种叙述很可能是熟悉的。
In this case, Tom and his wife Joyce were subjected to a series of hearings.
在本案中，汤姆和他的妻子乔伊斯接受了一系列听证会。
Hearings which tried to determine whether or not they were pedophiles.
听证会试图确定他们是否是恋童癖者。
They didn't know who believe.
他们不知道谁相信。
So they asked Joyce and I to submit ourselves to going to a professional clinic, of their choosing, to be psychologically and emotionally and all evaluated to see if we could be child molesters.
因此，他们要求乔伊斯和我去他们选择的专业诊所，进行心理和情感方面的评估，看看我们是否可能成为儿童猥亵者。
And asking me to go to be psychologically evaluated would be no different to me than asking me to go to the hospital to have a hysterectomy.
而让我去做心理评估对我来说就和让我去医院做子宫切除术没什么区别。
That is as much sense as that meant to me.
这对我来说意义重大。
By the end, this thing had gone public.
到最后，这件事情已经公开了。
It went public in this community, it went public everywhere.
它在这个社区公开，它在任何地方公开。
We even went to the mall, and there were good friends that would see us coming and they would raise their hands up, and just shake their head and turn and go the other way.
我们甚至去了商场，有好朋友看到我们来了，他们会举起手，然后摇摇头，转身走另一条路。
After the story went public, Tom couldn't find work.
故事公开后，汤姆找不到工作。
He was turned away by over 100 potential employers.
他被 100 多个潜在雇主拒绝了。
He and Joyce were forbidden to contact Beth, who had moved to Oklahoma City, and were cautioned not to contact their other daughters as well.
他和乔伊斯被禁止联系搬到俄克拉荷马城的贝丝，并被警告不要联系他们的其他女儿。
Tom had lost his family, his position, his name.
汤姆失去了他的家庭、他的地位、他的名字。
Quite understandably, he struggled with thoughts of suicide, an act he believed was a sin.
可以理解的是，他与自杀的念头作斗争，他认为自杀是一种罪过。
There were times when my head hit the pillow at night-- I pleaded that God would be more merciful to me if he would just allow me not to awaken in the morning.
有时晚上我的头会撞到枕头上——我祈求上帝对我更加仁慈，如果他能让我早上不醒来的话。
And there were times when I would be home, and I'm unemployed, and I'd turn on music.
有时当我失业在家时，我就会打开音乐。
And I played music-- tapes and records and things-- and I played it so loud so I couldn't hear myself think.
我播放音乐——磁带、唱片等等——而且我放得很大声，所以我听不到自己的想法。
Just to save my sanity.
只是为了拯救我的理智。
And try to make it another 24 hours.
并尝试再延长24小时。
Again, Linda Ross, the therapist in Arizona.
再次是琳达·罗斯，亚利桑那州的治疗师。
So finally this client comes to me and she tells me that she has a memory of a woman in the neighborhood had miscarried, and her mother had been there helping this neighbor.
最后，这位客户来找我，她告诉我，她记得附近有一位妇女流产了，她的母亲一直在那里帮助这位邻居。
And her mother took the fetus, brought it home, heated up some oil, boiled the fetus in oil and made her eat the arm of the fried baby.
而她的母亲则把胎儿抱回家，烧热一些油，把胎儿煮在油里，让她吃掉炸好的婴儿手臂。
And it was at that point that I said, you know what?
就在那时我说，你知道吗？
I don't think this happened.
我不认为这发生过。
I don't believe that.
我不相信。
I was in a panic.
我很恐慌。
Because the thing that I had been trained-- you do not disbelieve your clients.
因为我所受的训练就是——不要不相信你的客户。
If you do, you're Satan.
如果你这样做，你就是撒旦。
And I didn't believe her.
我不相信她。
After several sleepless nights, Linda decided to confront her patient directly.
经过几个不眠之夜后，琳达决定直接面对她的病人。
That was one of the hardest, scariest moments in my life.
那是我一生中最艰难、最可怕的时刻之一。
And at that point it wasn't like I've had this moment of clarity.
那时我并没有经历过这样的清醒时刻。
You know, I need to tell you and I-- you have to understand, I had never heard that there was any possibility that repressed memories could be false.
你知道，我需要告诉你，我——你必须明白，我从来没有听说过压抑的记忆有可能是错误的。
I'd never heard that thought.
我从来没有听说过这个想法。
I had no context other than my own self which said, I don't believe this.
除了我自己之外，我没有任何背景告诉我，我不相信这一点。
So I felt like a failure.
所以我感觉自己很失败。
I felt like I was failing this client.
我觉得我辜负了这位客户。
I was failing myself.
我自己失败了。
But I could not overcome my own doubt.
但我无法克服自己的怀疑。
And so I, you know, I just told her, I have a hard time believing this particular memory.
所以我，你知道，我只是告诉她，我很难相信这段特殊的记忆。
And you have a right to be in therapy with someone who's going to believe you.
你有权与愿意相信你的人一起接受治疗。
And to my discredit, I sent her on to someone who was a specialist in working with satanic ritual abuse and multiple personalities.
令我名誉扫地的是，我把她送到了一位处理撒旦仪式虐待和多重人格方面的专家那里。
And then she got much worse.
然后她的情况变得更糟。
Beth Rutherford was living in Oklahoma City with her sister, Lynette, who dropped out of college after her father's disgrace.
贝丝·卢瑟福 (Beth Rutherford) 与她的妹妹琳内特 (Lynette) 住在俄克拉荷马城，琳内特因父亲的耻辱而辍学。
It was a terrible time.
那是一段可怕的时光。
They're completely alone, they had no jobs, no acquaintances, and very little money.
他们完全孤独，没有工作，没有熟人，也没有什么钱。
Beth spent nights on the bathroom floor crying.
贝丝整晚都在浴室地板上哭泣。
But then Beth stopped talking to her therapist.
但后来贝丝不再和她的治疗师说话。
And, miraculously, she began to feel better.
而且，奇迹般地，她开始感觉好多了。
She got a job, put on weight.
她找到了工作，体重也增加了。
Things seemed to be returning to normal.
事情似乎正在恢复正常。
And then came the bombing at the Federal Building, and the tearful message on the answering machine from Beth's mother, who called, despite warnings from the church authorities that she and her husband could be prosecuted for harassment, simply to say that she loved Beth, she missed Beth, and she wanted to know if Beth was OK.
然后联邦大楼发生爆炸，电话答录机上传来贝丝母亲含泪的留言，尽管教会当局警告她和她的丈夫可能因骚扰而被起诉，她还是打来电话，只是说她爱贝丝，她想念贝丝，她想知道贝丝是否还好。
This call was followed by another, and then another.
这个电话之后又是另一个，然后是另一个。
Beth says it wasn't a certain moment, it was a series of moments.
贝丝说这不是某个特定的时刻，而是一系列的时刻。
A collection of calls and gentle suggestions from her sisters, from family members, which finally produced the meetings.
一系列来自她的姐妹和家人的电话和温和的建议，最终促成了这次会议。
First with her mother, a shopping trip at a local mall.
首先是和她的母亲一起去当地的一家购物中心购物。
And then later, her father, whom she saw for the first time in the kitchen of her aunt's house in Tulsa.
后来，她第一次见到父亲是在塔尔萨姨妈家的厨房里。
At that point she still believed and had only reluctantly agreed to stand in the same room as her father at all.
那时她仍然相信，只是勉强同意和父亲站在同一个房间。
And so this meeting took her by surprise.
所以这次见面让她感到意外。
I come down the stairs and I come into the kitchen, and I am scared to death.
我走下楼梯，走进厨房，我吓得要死。
In walks Beth to go over to get a cup of coffee.
贝丝走过去喝杯咖啡。
And out of the corner of my eye, I see my dad walking across the kitchen.
我用眼角的余光看到爸爸走过厨房。
I thought, he's coming over here to hit me.
我想，他是过来打我的。
And here she was, and I didn't know what to say, what I should do, what would be proper?
她就在这里，我不知道该说什么，该做什么，什么才是合适的？
How do you break the ice?
你如何打破坚冰？
All I knew was to go over there.
我所知道的就是去那里。
And I see him walk across the kitchen, and he comes over and he stands right next to me and he just started crying.
我看到他走过厨房，他走过来，站在我旁边，然后开始哭泣。
And I didn't know what to say.
我不知道该说什么。
And she starts to cry.
她开始哭泣。
And I said, if it's all right with you, can I say your name?
我说，如果你同意的话，我可以说出你的名字吗？
She kind of nodded her head.
她有点点头。
And I said, Beth.
我说，贝丝。
I love you, Beth.
我爱你，贝丝。
I remember thinking, in my mind, as I'm driving, this does not line up.
我记得当我开车时，我心里想，这并不一致。
That man that was just in the kitchen does not match who I have in my head of who he is.
刚才在厨房里的那个人与我脑海中的他不符。
As for Linda Ross, the breaking point came shortly after a confrontation with a client.
至于琳达·罗斯（Linda Ross），在与客户发生冲突后不久，转折点就出现了。
Came in the form of a letter, sent by one of her old patients, a woman who'd come to believe that the memory she'd recovered in therapy with Linda had been false.
以一封信的形式，由她的一位老病人寄出，这位女士开始相信她在琳达的治疗中恢复的记忆是错误的。
This letter included an invitation.
这封信包含一封邀请函。
The woman wanted Linda to attend an event sponsored by the False Memory Syndrome Foundation.
这位女士希望琳达参加由错误记忆综合症基金会赞助的活动。
A meeting for parents who had felt they'd been falsely accused.
为那些认为自己受到错误指控的家长举办的会议。
So I walk into this room with all these parents.
所以我和所有这些父母一起走进这个房间。
Now, you know, I had been dealing with the daughters of-- not these particular folks-- but these folks, so to speak.
现在，你知道，我一直在与——不是这些特定的人——而是这些人的女儿打交道，可以这么说。
And I really hadn't seen this from what this is like on their side.
我真的没有从他们这边看到这一点。
You know, what this looks like.
你知道，这看起来像什么。
And I walk in, and here are these sad, depressed, anxious parents who have been accused of horrible things.
我走进去，看到这些悲伤、沮丧、焦虑的父母，他们被指控做了可怕的事情。
Horrible.
可怕。
Just so ridiculous.
简直太可笑了。
And when you have it isolated, you have one little client sitting in front of you and they're making this accusation, it feels like, OK, well this is possible.
当你把它孤立起来时，你有一个小客户坐在你面前，他们正在提出这一指控，感觉就像，好吧，这是可能的。
This could happen.
这可能会发生。
But then when you multiply it with the hundreds and thousands and thousands of people in therapy, and the number of people who have been murdered, and the number of people who've been sacrificed, and the number of people who've eaten the pizza boy, and the number of people who have been locked in basements.
但当你把它与成百上千接受治疗的人、被谋杀的人数、被牺牲的人数、吃过披萨男孩的人数、以及被锁在地下室的人数相乘时。
You know, you just begin to realize the magnitude of what I had been a little tiny microcosm.
你知道，你刚刚开始意识到我曾经是一个小小的缩影的重要性。
Shortly after this, the former patient invited Linda to yet another meeting.
此后不久，这位前病人邀请琳达参加另一次会议。
This one with the patient's parents, a sweet suburban couple who had had their home dismantled by a crew of local police officers, eager to uncover evidence of the dead bodies their daughter had remembered through therapy.
这是病人的父母，一对甜蜜的郊区夫妇，他们的家被一群当地警察拆毁了，他们急于找到女儿在治疗中记住的尸体的证据。
So we're all sitting together in this room, and she's beginning to tell them about how she came to believe this and all of this.
所以我们都坐在这个房间里，她开始告诉他们她是如何相信这一点和所有这一切的。
And here I am, you know, I've played a part in this.
我在这里，你知道，我在其中发挥了作用。
So I had a chance to tell them the part that I played.
所以我有机会告诉他们我扮演的角色。
And to tell them that I completely understood that they would find it difficult, for the rest of their lives, to be able to find a place to forgive me.
并告诉他们，我完全理解，他们会发现他们的余生都很难找到一个地方来原谅我。
But that I was certainly aware that I was in need of their forgiveness.
但我当然知道我需要他们的宽恕。
What did they do?
他们做了什么？
Linda Ross They forgave me.
琳达·罗斯 他们原谅了我。
And it's because of them, I told them at that point that if I could ever speak up and talk about this issue in a way that would prevent other families from going through this, that I would.
正是因为他们，我当时告诉他们，如果我能以一种可以防止其他家庭经历这种情况的方式大声说出并谈论这个问题，我会的。
And I'm talking to you because of that promise that I made to them.
我之所以跟你说话是因为我对他们做出的承诺。
It was after this meeting that Linda decided to contact the rest of her patients.
正是在这次会议之后，琳达决定联系其他患者。
She wanted to apologize, and also to explain.
她想要道歉，也想要解释。
To meet face-to-face and tell them the memories they'd recovered together might not be real.
面对面地见面并告诉他们共同恢复的记忆可能不是真实的。
It was a painful process.
这是一个痛苦的过程。
A few of her patients had had explosive confrontations with their parents, and flat out rejected the idea that their members could be false.
她的一些病人曾与他们的父母发生过激烈的冲突，并且断然否认他们的成员可能是假的。
Some were angry, others simply devastated.
有些人很愤怒，另一些人只是感到震惊。
The Sunday after Beth Rutherford met her father, she went to see the pastor of her church.
贝丝·卢瑟福见到父亲后的那个周日，她去见了教堂的牧师。
She told this man what she'd been going through, and asked if she could spend some time alone in the chapel.
她告诉这个男人她所经历的一切，并询问她是否可以在教堂里独自度过一段时间。
She said she needed to think.
她说她需要思考。
Her pastor agreed.
她的牧师同意了。
And after the evening service, cleared everyone out, locking the doors of the chapel from the outside.
晚间礼拜结束后，清理所有人，并从外面锁上教堂的门。
Beth stayed alone in the building for hours.
贝丝独自在大楼里呆了几个小时。
And it's like things came into my thinking and I'm thinking, you know, I didn't have any of this before I went into therapy.
就好像一些事情进入了我的思维，我在想，你知道，在我接受治疗之前我没有任何这些。
I didn't have any of these memories, nothing was there.
我没有任何这些记忆，什么也没有。
I believed I had a wonderful childhood.
我相信我有一个美好的童年。
And by the time I left that night-- and I can't really explain, because it wasn't a certain minute, but it was like a process in those couple hours.
那天晚上我离开的时候——我无法真正解释，因为那不是某一分钟，但这就像那几个小时的一个过程。
By the time I left, I'd come to the point that I believed, OK, I don't think any of this happened to me.
当我离开时，我已经相信，好吧，我认为这一切都没有发生在我身上。
Today, the consensus among mainstream psychiatrists and psychologists is that it is possible to experience great trauma and repress to it so deeply that you can't remember it.
如今，主流精神病学家和心理学家的共识是，人们有可能经历过巨大的创伤，并深深地压抑它，以至于你不记得了。
But that this kind of massive repression is rare.
但这种大规模镇压是罕见的。
It's also generally agreed that therapists can inadvertently lead patients to create false memories with techniques like hypnosis and guided meditation.
人们普遍认为，治疗师可能会通过催眠和引导冥想等技术无意中引导患者创造错误的记忆。
They need to be very cautious.
他们需要非常谨慎。
Of course, there are still therapists who use these techniques improperly.
当然，仍然有一些治疗师不恰当地使用这些技术。
And there's no real way to police them.
而且没有真正的方法来监管他们。
One psychologist in Philadelphia was sued by dozens of patients who came to remember satanic abuse under her care, but continues to practice today.
费城的一位心理学家被数十名患者起诉，这些患者回忆起在她的照顾下遭受的撒旦虐待，但至今仍在继续执业。
She lost her psychology license.
她失去了心理学执照。
She calls herself a psychotherapist, which in many states is entirely legal.
她称自己为心理治疗师，这在许多州是完全合法的。
I went to college in the early 90s, at the height of the recovered memory movement.
我在九十年代初上大学，当时正值记忆恢复运动的鼎盛时期。
And, like most people my age, I can name, off the top of my head, three or four people who recovered memories.
而且，像大多数与我同龄的人一样，我可以立即说出三四个恢复记忆的人的名字。
Who came to believe that they'd been horribly violated by those closest to them.
他们开始相信自己受到了最亲近的人的严重侵犯。
Unlike Beth Rutherford, none of the people I know broke off contact with their families.
与贝丝·卢瑟福不同，我认识的人中没有一个人与家人断绝了联系。
There were no public hearings, no newspaper articles, no million dollar settlements.
没有公开听证会，没有报纸文章，没有数百万美元的和解。
Their parents didn't write anguished letters to the False Memory Foundation.
他们的父母没有给错误记忆基金会写过痛苦的信。
Nothing so spectacular.
没有什么如此壮观的。
Instead, quietly, painfully, this idea that they were victims was simply integrated into their notion of themselves, and then they moved on, and carried this idea, real or false, with them.
相反，安静地、痛苦地，他们是受害者的想法被简单地融入了他们的自我观念中，然后他们继续前进，并带着这个想法，无论真实的还是虚假的。
According to a recent study, a survey of over 1,000 families whose children recovered memories during the early 90s, almost 50% of the men and women who recovered memories during that time have returned to their families, after a long period of estrangement, and are now attempting some kind of reconciliation.
最近的一项研究对1000多个孩子在90年代初恢复记忆的家庭进行了调查，结果显示，近50%在那段时期恢复记忆的男女在经历了长期的疏远之后，现在已经回到了家人身边，并正在尝试某种和解。
Many continue to believe that they were victimized by their families, and only a small portion, 10% or 12% have retracted and now believe that their memories were false.
许多人仍然相信自己是家人的受害者，只有一小部分人，即 10% 或 12% 的人已经收回了观点，现在认为他们的记忆是错误的。
On the other hand, there are almost no people like Linda Ross, practicing therapists, who have come forward to talk publicly about their experience.
另一方面，几乎没有像琳达·罗斯这样的执业治疗师站出来公开谈论他们的经历。
To admit culpability or try to figure out how this happened.
承认错误或试图弄清楚这是如何发生的。
The experts for once are strangely quiet.
专家们这一次出奇地安静。
Alix Spiegel, in New York.
阿利克斯·斯皮格尔，在纽约。
Coming up, it's one thing to do a little improv in front of your acting class.
接下来，在表演课上做一点即兴表演是一回事。
It's another to do it in front of Marlon Brando.
在马龙·白兰度面前做这件事是另一回事。
The scariest acting class in the world, in a minute, from Public Radio International and Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续时，国际公共广播电台和芝加哥公共广播电台将推出世界上最恐怖的表演课。
It's This America Life , I'm Ira Glass.
这就是美国生活，我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, we choose some theme.
每周我们的节目都会选择一些主题。
Bring you a variety of different kinds of stories on that theme.
为您带来该主题的各种不同类型的故事。
Today's program, "Ask an expert." Stories about experts giving terrible, terrible advice.
今天的节目《请教专家》。关于专家给出非常非常糟糕的建议的故事。
We've arrived at act two of our show.
我们已经到了演出的第二幕了。
Act two, "Not Stella Adler, just still Stellllaaah."
第二幕，“不是Stella Adler，只是Stelllaaah。”
I don't know if it's true that those who can't do teach-- you know that saying.
我不知道那些不会教书的人是否真的——你知道这句话。
I want to know more about those who can do.
我想更多地了解那些有能力的人。
Can they teach?
他们可以教书吗？
Recently, one of the greatest actors of the last century, somebody who is reclusive, and who doesn't usually speak about his own work in public, decided to make a set of instructional videos about acting.
最近，上世纪最伟大的演员之一，一个隐居的人，通常不会在公共场合谈论自己的作品，决定制作一组有关表演的教学视频。
The actor is Marlon Brando.
演员是马龙·白兰度。
His instructional videos are called Lying for a Living.
他的教学视频名为“以谎言谋生”。
They aren't on the market just yet.
它们还没有上市。
Jod Kaftan visited Brando's compound in Beverly Hills while they were being put together.
当他们在一起时，乔德·卡夫坦参观了白兰度位于比佛利山庄的住所。
The scariest thing about Marlon Brando is his phone.
马龙·白兰度最可怕的就是他的手机。
I ask if I can call New York from his office.
我问我是否可以从他的办公室给纽约打电话。
But I'm warned by his staff that someone may listen in.
但他的工作人员警告我，有人可能会偷听。
I'm foolishly curious and call anyway.
我愚蠢地好奇，无论如何还是打电话了。
Indeed, in the middle of my conversation, I faintly detect a third party's breathing, and a receiver fumbling in someone's hands.
确实，在我谈话的过程中，我隐隐约约地听到了第三者的呼吸声，以及某人手里的听筒在摸索。
I say, hello?
我说，喂？
More breathing.
更多呼吸。
I hear what sounds like the crunch of a potato chip.
我听到了类似炸薯片的嘎吱声。
I end the call and hang up.
我结束通话并挂断电话。
The office at Brando's estate is shrouded in a bamboo thicket off the driveway.
白兰度庄园的办公室被车道旁的竹丛所笼罩。
Any minute he could beep on the phone, to indicate that he'd like to walk over and see the first footage from his new project on acting called Lying for a Living.
他随时都会在电话里发出嘟嘟声，表示他想走过去看看他的新表演项目《以谎言为生》的第一个镜头。
The staff seems anxious.
工作人员看起来很着急。
Someone is feverishly collecting empty soda cans.
有人正在疯狂地收集空汽水罐。
Another usually chatty staffer is suddenly mute and typing dutifully.
另一位平时很健谈的员工突然变得沉默寡言，开始尽职尽责地打字。
Immediately I scan the office for strange cuckoo clocks, or oil paintings with roving eyes.
我立即扫视办公室，寻找奇怪的布谷鸟钟，或者目光游移的油画。
Beep.
嘟。
Everyone stops and looks at the phone.
每个人都停下来看着手机。
There's a mumble.
有一声咕哝。
A raspy, congested voice says, "Coming down." I'm sitting on the couch with my legs crossed, fighting the urge to look over my shoulder.
一个沙哑而拥挤的声音说道：“下来了。”我盘腿坐在沙发上，强忍着回头看的冲动。
I know I shouldn't since he once told me that he hates being stared at, especially by men.
我知道我不应该这样做，因为他曾经告诉我，他讨厌被人盯着，尤其是被男人盯着。
Marlon Brando steps through the sliding glass door in a tropical terry cloth robe.
马龙·白兰度穿着热带毛圈布长袍走进滑动玻璃门。
Without a word, he drops himself on the couch next to me.
他一言不发地坐在我旁边的沙发上。
Coughs, stretches out his bare, pallid legs and pans the room as if to root out anything unfamiliar.
咳嗽一声，伸出光秃秃、苍白的双腿，扫视房间，仿佛要找出任何不熟悉的东西。
I can feel his eyes stop at me.
我能感觉到他的目光停在我身上。
The editor asked Brando if he's ready to view the tapes.
编辑问白兰度是否准备好观看录像带。
"What do you think?" asked Brando.
“你怎么认为？”白兰度问道。
The tapes start rolling with a closeup of Brando's still-handsome 77-year-old profile.
录像带开始播放白兰度 77 岁依然英俊的侧面特写。
I'm nervous that he hasn't yet acknowledged my presence.
我很紧张他还没有承认我的存在。
While still watching the tape, he sticks out his arm and extends a pinkie.
当他仍在观看录像时，他伸出手臂并伸出小指。
It's a special Brando handshake.
这是白兰度特殊的握手。
I respond and our pinkies entwine.
我回应了，我们的小指纠缠在一起。
The first time he offered this handshake, I thought he was afraid I had germs.
他第一次握手时，我以为他担心我有细菌。
But I soon learned it was a sign of affection.
但我很快就知道这是一种感情的表现。
I existed.
我存在过。
I met Brando when I was a teenager.
我十几岁的时候就认识了白兰度。
I had dated his daughter Rebecca for about half an hour, but maintained a friendship.
我和他的女儿丽贝卡约会了大约半个小时，但仍保持着友谊。
We were sitting in his den watching MTV when she said, "Turn it down, I think my dad's coming." "How do you know?" I asked.
我们坐在他的书房里看 MTV，这时她说：“关小声，我想我爸爸会来。” “你怎么知道？”我问。
"I just do." I did notice that the tropical fish were no longer swimming, but idling.
“我就是这么做。”我确实注意到热带鱼不再游动，而是闲逛。
The door creaked open.
门吱呀一声打开了。
He sat down between us, mostly naked in a Japanese robe.
他坐在我们中间，全身赤裸，穿着日本长袍。
I stared.
我凝视着。
I couldn't help it.
我忍不住了。
It was Marlon Brando.
这是马龙·白兰度。
After a few minutes of listening to him rip into MTV, he turned to me and said, "You know, you have a very wide antenna, a large antenna.
听了几分钟他滔滔不绝地唱 MTV 后，他转向我说：“你知道，你有一个非常宽的天线，一个很大的天线。
Most people hide their antennas, but yours is very active, very open." What could I say but "thanks."
大多数人都会隐藏自己的天线，但你的天线非常活跃、非常开放。”除了“谢谢”我还能说什么？
Only he wasn't through.
只是他还没有结束。
"I'm not really sure, but my gut feeling is that you're a homosexual.
“我不太确定，但我的直觉是你是同性恋。
Am I right?" I wasn't.
我说得对吗？”我不是。
But I found myself answering, "yes." He nodded and left the room.
但我发现自己回答说：“是的。”他点点头，离开了房间。
The second time I met him, almost 10 years later, he offered me a job.
差不多十年后，我第二次见到他时，他给了我一份工作。
He said he thought of me because I didn't seem to be overly neurotic.
他说他想到我是因为我看起来不太神经质。
Thanks, I said.
谢谢，我说。
He said, "Now the job could involve things like building a dog house for my mastiff, Tim.
他说：“现在这项工作可能涉及为我的獒犬蒂姆建造一个狗屋。
Or I might walk up to you and ask you to take apart a radio and put it back together again.
或者我可能会走到您面前并要求您拆开收音机并将其重新组装起来。
The job will have various benefits.
这项工作将带来各种好处。
Like trips to my house in Tahiti.
就像去我在塔希提岛的家旅行一样。
I might ask you to mount a surveillance on the island.
我可能会要求你在岛上安装监视装置。
Or to run down to Casa Vega and pick up a dozen tacos."
或者跑到卡萨维加买一打炸玉米饼。”
Things went south after a month when Marlon's porno-watching Argentinian house man cornered me with a violent, pointing finger and said, "Marlon say you work for me now." I'd been demoted.
一个月后，当马龙的看色情片的阿根廷男主人用暴力的手指将我逼到墙角并说：“马龙说你现在为我工作时，事情就变糟了。”我被降职了。
It was an order that could only come from the top.
这是只有最高层才能下达的命令。
What was once an exquisite paycheck for merely being myself had become a hackneyed, proletariat job of attrition.
曾经只是做我自己就能获得丰厚的薪水，现在却变成了一种陈腐的、无产阶级的消耗性工作。
I was fired after a month when I refused to cut down all the sick, 40-foot high bamboo trees.
一个月后，我因拒绝砍伐所有 40 英尺高的病竹而被解雇。
They were loaded with bugs and I was, let's face it, just a dandy.
他们充满了错误，而我，让我们面对现实吧，只是一个花花公子。
Brando's memory runs short.
白兰度的记忆力不够了。
In late 2001, he called me via one of his employees, and asked me if I'd be interested in writing an article about his new project on acting, Lying for a Living.
2001 年末，他通过一名员工给我打电话，问我是否有兴趣写一篇关于他的新表演项目《以谎言为生》的文章。
Knowing full well that my last job with Brando was a fiasco, I deliberated.
我深知我与白兰度的最后一次合作是一场惨败，因此我深思熟虑。
The next day I was laid off and the prospect became interesting.
第二天我被解雇了，前景变得有趣。
Besides, I was honored that he'd asked me, essentially a nobody.
此外，我很荣幸他能邀请我，而我本质上是一个无名小卒。
Actually, that's probably why he did ask me.
事实上，这可能就是他问我的原因。
Over lunch, I ask Brando why he decided to call his project Lying for a Living .
午餐时，我问白兰度为什么决定将他的项目命名为“以谎言为生”。
He insists that the title isn't meant to be cute.
他坚持认为这个标题并不是为了可爱。
If you can lie, he says, you can act.
他说，如果你能撒谎，你就能行动。
His intention is to turn out better liars onstage or off.
他的目的是在台上或台下培养出更好的骗子。
Lying, he explains, is a social lubricant we can't live without.
他解释说，谎言是我们离不开的社会润滑剂。
"I've been lying all my life," he tells me.
“我一生都在撒谎，”他告诉我。
"Everybody does." I ask him whether he thinks he's a good liar.
“每个人都这样。”我问他是否认为自己是一个很好的骗子。
"Jesus," he says.
“天哪，”他说。
"I'm fabulous at it."
“我很擅长。”
The classes are a little weird.
班级有点奇怪。
In the tapes, Brando, the master, sits at the head of the class in a massive leather armchair adorned like a throne.
在录音带中，大师白兰度坐在班级的最前面，坐在一张装饰得像王座的巨大皮革扶手椅上。
His two bare feet dangling languidly off an ottoman.
他的两只赤脚懒洋洋地悬在脚凳上。
A lamp with ram's horns flanks his right.
他的右侧有一盏带有公羊角的灯。
A large, tropical plant stands behind him.
他身后矗立着一棵巨大的热带植物。
Throw in the flamboyant pink scarf flung around his neck, and Brando looks like a frightening combination of Liberace and Freud.
再加上脖子上那条华丽的粉色围巾，白兰度看起来就像是利伯拉斯和弗洛伊德的可怕结合体。
The classes are, to say the least, star-studded.
至少可以说，这些班级都是明星云集。
With Brando's guest list including the likes of Sean Penn, Jon Voight, Leonardo DiCaprio, Nick Nolte, Edward James Olmos, Robin Williams, Whoopi Goldberg, and even Michael Jackson, sitting among the dozen or so aspiring actors.
白兰度的嘉宾名单包括西恩·潘、强·沃伊特、莱昂纳多·迪卡普里奥、尼克·诺尔特、爱德华·詹姆斯·奥莫斯、罗宾·威廉姆斯、乌比·戈德堡，甚至迈克尔·杰克逊等十几个有抱负的演员。
It's interesting to see these familiar faces undirected and candid.
看到这些熟悉的面孔不受指导且坦诚是很有趣的。
Only Sean Penn looks bored throughout the tapes, smirking as if there's an inside joke to get.
在整个录像带中，只有西恩·潘 (Sean Penn) 看上去很无聊，傻笑着，好像有什么内部笑话可听。
Everyone else, from Jon Voight to Nick Nolte looks utterly studious.
从乔恩·沃伊特到尼克·诺尔特，其他人看起来都非常好学。
They have good reason.
他们有充分的理由。
Brando hardly ever discusses his craft, and for the first time in years, he's talking about acting as if it matters.
白兰度几乎从不讨论他的技艺，多年来他第一次谈论表演，就好像表演很重要一样。
He talks a lot about being willing to make an ass of yourself.
他经常谈到愿意出丑。
With this in mind, on the third day of class, he turns himself into a bosomy English woman.
考虑到这一点，在上课的第三天，他把自己变成了一个丰满的英国女人。
He saunters onto the sound stage wearing lipstick, blush, Chinese silk pajamas, and a cobalt blue scarf knotted coquettishly around his neck.
他涂着口红、腮红，穿着中国丝绸睡衣，脖子上挂着一条钴蓝色的围巾，在摄影棚里闲庭信步。
A sultry makeup girls kneels at his feet, applying fire-red nail polish to his hands, while two students labor through an improv.
一个性感的化妆师跪在他的脚边，给他的手涂上火红色的指甲油，而两名学生正在即兴表演。
"If you're not willing to fall on your face," he says.
“如果你不愿意摔倒的话，”他说。
"If you're not willing to do something that's really stupid, embarrassing, then you're not going to do it." When I ask Brando why he's making the tapes, he says, "One word.
“如果你不愿意做一些非常愚蠢、令人尴尬的事情，那么你就不会做。”当我问白兰度为什么要制作这些磁带时，他说：“一个词。
Money." But watching him, it's clear that he's making an effort to be a good teacher.
钱。”但从他的表现来看，很明显他正在努力成为一名好老师。
He's usually sensitive and positive with his students.
他通常对学生敏感且积极。
Even when their improvs are bad.
即使他们的即兴表演很糟糕。
Like one in which a woman pretends to be a crazy person in a mental institution, talking in a little girl's voice for a good 20 minutes, he's supportive.
就像一个女人在精神病院里假装成疯子，用小女孩的声音说话足有20分钟一样，他是支持的。
His trademark comment after most scenes is "good, damn good."
大多数场景结束后他的标志性评论是“好，该死的好”。
Of course, Brando's eccentricities do show up on the tapes.
当然，白兰度的怪癖确实在录音带上有所体现。
Like when he declares he wants to sing the actor's national anthem, and then puts his hand over his heart and sings, "Me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me.
就像当他宣布要唱演员的国歌时，然后把手放在心上唱道：“我，我，我，我，我，我，我，我。
You." Or when he asks a very beautiful female student-- a competitive runner and model, despite having lost her legs-- to come to the front of the class and tell her story of healing and accomplishment.
你。”或者，当他要求一位非常漂亮的女学生——一位竞技跑步运动员和模特，尽管失去了双腿——走到班级前面，讲述她的治愈和成就的故事。
The high point of her story comes when she says she realized that she could run faster if she fashioned her prosthetic limbs after those of a cheetah.
当她说她意识到，如果她按照猎豹的假肢制作假肢，她就能跑得更快，这就是她故事的高潮。
Perhaps this wouldn't be so strange if Brando weren't sitting behind her on his throne, totally poker faced, like the facilitator of an AA meeting.
如果白兰度没有坐在她身后的宝座上，面无表情，就像AA会议的主持人一样，也许这不会那么奇怪。
After her story, as she returns to her chair, Brando chimes in.
故事结束后，当她回到椅子上时，白兰度插话道。
"And she looks pretty good going away."
“而且她离开时看起来很不错。”
Occasionally the tapes show Brando with a coger's unwitting political naivete.
有时，录音带会表现出白兰度不自觉的政治天真。
Ironic for a man once known as a staunch activist for Native Americans and other causes.
对于一个曾经被称为美洲原住民和其他事业的坚定活动家的人来说，这是讽刺。
On the first day of class he proudly introduces a man he found rummaging through the dumpsters outside, and recruited to join the class.
上课的第一天，他自豪地介绍了一个他在外面翻垃圾箱时发现的人，并招募他加入班级。
A special surprise, he calls it.
他称之为特别的惊喜。
The camera swirls to Jim, a bearded black man looking cleaned up and nervous.
镜头转向吉姆，他是一位留着胡须的黑人，看上去干净而紧张。
"Jim was outside here, monkeying with the trash containers.
“吉姆在外面摆弄垃圾箱。
What do you do, Jim?" Brando ask.
吉姆，你做什么？”白兰度问道。
"Recycling," he says.
“回收，”他说。
On day 14, Brando has two dwarfs and a giant Samoan do an improv.
第 14 天，白兰度让两个小矮人和一个萨摩亚巨人进行即兴表演。
At one point, the dwarfs start punching each other and the Samoan separates them like two unleashed puppies.
有一次，矮人们开始互相殴打，萨摩亚人像两只被释放的小狗一样将他们分开。
At the end of the scene, Brando lavishly praises the performance.
这场戏结束时，白兰度对表演大加赞赏。
"When something's good, it hits you.
“当某件事是好的时候，它就会击中你。
I get chicken skin when something's really right." There may be a remote chance that someone in the class was engaged with the improv.
当事情真的正确时，我就会变得鸡皮疙瘩。”班上有人参与即兴表演的可能性很小。
But to the viewer, the scene comes off as nothing more than a bad bar joke.
但对于观众来说，这个场景只不过是一个糟糕的酒吧笑话。
Brando wants to be a good teacher, but what the tapes prove is that he simply doesn't have a clue how.
白兰度想成为一名好老师，但录音带证明他根本不知道如何做。
I think that acting comes so naturally to him that he doesn't know how he does it.
我认为表演对他来说是如此自然，以至于他不知道自己是如何做到的。
Brando assumes that because everyone lies, everyone can act.
白兰度认为，因为每个人都撒谎，所以每个人都可以采取行动。
In one of the tapes, he explains how he created the character of Don Corleone for The Godfather .
在其中一盘磁带中，他解释了如何为《教父》塑造唐·柯里昂这一角色。
He'd never played an Italian, he says, and he was scared of doing the part with big Italian gestures.
他说，他从来没有扮演过意大利人，而且他害怕用意大利人的大动作来扮演这个角色。
So he put some cotton into his cheeks and imitated an Italian he knew, producer Dino De Laurentiis, who, according to Brando, took a shot in the throat and had that raspy, whispery voice.
于是他在脸颊上放了一些棉花，模仿了他认识的一位意大利制片人迪诺·德·劳伦蒂斯（Dino De Laurentiis），据白兰度说，迪诺·德·劳伦蒂斯在喉咙里开了一枪，发出了那种沙哑、低语的声音。
From the voice apparently came the rest of the character.
从声音中显然可以看出角色的其余部分。
It's an interesting story.
这是一个有趣的故事。
But if you were a young actor wanting to create a personality on screen as complicated and compelling as Brando's character in The Godfather , it wouldn't help you very much.
但如果你是一位年轻演员，想要在银幕上塑造一个像白兰度在《教父》中扮演的角色一样复杂而引人注目的人物，那么这对你没有多大帮助。
All the things that make his performance great, he doesn't say anything about.
所有让他表现出色的事情，他都只字不提。
I don't think he'd be able to, even if he wanted.
我认为即使他愿意，他也做不到。
Even if you paid him, which he hopes you will.
即使你付钱给他，他也希望你这么做。
Two weeks later, we're watching the tapes in Brando's office.
两周后，我们在白兰度的办公室里观看录像带。
"I look like Grandma Moses," jokes Brando.
“我看起来像摩西奶奶，”白兰度开玩笑说。
"Can you crop it?
“你能剪掉吗？
Jesus, I look pregnant." The next thing I know, Brando's hand is groping my knee.
天哪，我看起来怀孕了。”接下来我知道，白兰度的手正在摸索我的膝盖。
It's not a sexual advance, but a curious one, as if you were examining a rottweiler for purchase.
这不是一种性挑衅，而是一种好奇，就像你在检查一只罗威纳犬以供购买一样。
"You've got big, strong legs," he says.
“你有一双又大又强壮的腿，”他说。
The footage continues, and I feel his hand move on to my humble bicep.
镜头还在继续，我感觉到他的手移到了我不起眼的二头肌上。
"You're solid, man."
“你很坚强，伙计。”
At that point, the camera shows DiCaprio improvising on a phone.
此时，镜头显示迪卡普里奥在手机上即兴创作。
"He looks like a girl," says Brando.
“他看起来像个女孩，”白兰度说。
It's possible that none of this footage will ever be released.
这些镜头可能永远都不会被公开。
The videos are supposed to come out in the fall, but a certain amount of chaos has surrounded the whole production from the start.
这些视频原定于秋季发布，但从一开始整个制作过程就出现了一定程度的混乱。
He scrutinizes the screen and then asks, to no one in particular, "Who wants to see a fat, 80-year-old man pontificate?"
他仔细地审视着屏幕，然后问（没有特定的人）：“谁想看到一位肥胖的 80 岁老人担任教皇？”
Jod Kaftan.
乔德·卡夫坦.
A version of his story appeared in Rolling Stone.
他的故事的一个版本出现在《滚石》杂志上。
Our program was produced today by Wendy Dorr and myself, with Alex Blumberg, Jonathan Goldstein, and Starlee Kine.
今天我们的节目由温迪·多尔和我本人以及亚历克斯·布隆伯格、乔纳森·戈德斯坦和斯塔莉·凯恩共同制作。
Senior producer, Julie Snyder.
高级制片人朱莉·斯奈德。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our story on recovered memory was part of a series called The America Project , which gets funding from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.
[致谢] 我们关于恢复记忆的故事是名为“美国项目”的系列的一部分，该项目得到了公共广播公司的资助。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
Funding for our show comes from the listeners of WBEZ Chicago.
我们的节目的资金来自 WBEZ 芝加哥的听众。
WBEZ management oversight by Torey Malatia, who explained my job to me this way back when I was hired--
WBEZ 管理由 Torey Malatia 负责监督，他在我受聘时就这样向我解释了我的工作——
Now the job could involve things like building a doghouse for my mastiff, Tim.
现在，这项工作可能涉及为我的獒犬蒂姆建造狗舍之类的事情。
Or I might walk up to you, and ask you to take apart a radio and put it back together.
或者我可能会走到您面前，请您拆开收音机并将其装回原处。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life .
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。