213: Devil on My Shoulder - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #213 | October 23, 2009 213: Devil on My Shoulder Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 213 集 | 2009 年 10 月 23 日 213：肩上的魔鬼 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life, distributed by Public Radio International.
序言 Ira Glass 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥，这就是美国生活，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
One day, when I was 14, coming home from junior high school, I saw my across-the-street neighbor, [?
有一天，当我14岁的时候，初中放学回家，我看到了我的街对面邻居，[？
Mark Nasdor, ?] and he was riding his 10-speed down this big hill near our school.
马克·纳斯多 (Mark Nasdor)，？] 他正骑着他的 10 速车从我们学校附近的这座大山上下来。
I was near the bottom of the hill.
我当时就在山脚附近。
And I had one of those-- you know those three-ring binders that you use when you're in school, those loose leaf binders?
我有一个 - 你知道你在学校时使用的那些三环活页夹，那些活页活页夹吗？
I had one of those, with all my school papers in it.
我有一本，里面有我所有的学校试卷。
And as [?
并作为[?
Mark Nasdor ?] sped down the sidewalk of this very steep hill, I got this idea.
马克·纳斯多（Mark Nasdor）？] 沿着这座非常陡峭的山坡的人行道加速行驶，我得到了这个想法。
And to explain this, I need you to picture for a second what a loose leaf binder looks like when you lay it on the ground.
为了解释这一点，我需要你想象一下当你把活页夹放在地上时它是什么样子。
it looks like a little ramp, right, with the highest point of the ramp being the fatter side, the side with the rings.
它看起来像一个小斜坡，对吧，斜坡的最高点是较胖的一侧，即有环的一侧。
And I thought, I could throw my loose leaf notebook in front of Mark's moving bicycle, positioning it perfectly so his wheels would roll up the ramp.
我想，我可以把我的活页笔记本扔到马克移动的自行车前面，完美地定位它，这样他的轮子就能滚上坡道。
And it would serve as a ramp.
它将作为一个坡道。
He would fly in the air like Evel Knievel.
他会像埃维尔·克尼维尔一样在空中飞翔。
Now, I want to say [UNINTELLIGIBLE] about speed.
现在，我想说[难以理解]关于速度。
This idea popped into my head.
这个想法突然出现在我的脑海中。
And then in a second, too fast to actually think this through-- if there were time to think about this, I don't think I would have done it-- the idea pops into my head, and then there is [?
然后在一秒钟之内，速度太快了，来不及真正思考这个问题——如果有时间思考这个问题，我想我不会这么做——这个想法突然出现在我的脑海中，然后就有了[？
Mark Nasdor, ?] moving fast down this hill.
马克·纳斯多尔，？] 快速走下这座山。
And I threw the binder in front of him.
我把活页夹扔到他面前。
Now, in case you're wondering what the actual aerodynamics are when a moving bicycle meets a junior high school binder, and how high the bike flies, and how far it goes, I can tell you, because I was there, I saw this.
现在，如果你想知道当一辆移动的自行车遇到一个初中活页夹时，实际的空气动力学是什么，以及自行车飞多高，飞多远，我可以告诉你，因为我在那里，我看到了这个。
What happens to a bicycle in this situation is it flips on its side at a very high speed, throwing the bicyclist off and bruising the bicyclist.
在这种情况下，自行车会以非常高的速度侧翻，将骑自行车的人甩下来并擦伤。
The bicyclist then gets up, curses at you, and asks this question, "Why did you do that?"
然后骑自行车的人站起来，咒骂你，并问这个问题：“你为什么这么做？”
It's a good question.
这是一个好问题。
It's a really good question.
这是一个非常好的问题。
And I had no answer at the time.
而我当时也没有答案。
I do now, because I heard some things lately that shed some light.
我现在这样做了，因为我最近听到的一些事情让我明白了一些。
I was seven years old when this happened.
这件事发生时我七岁。
All of my life, my family would go to this campground for the whole summer.
在我的一生中，我的家人整个夏天都会去这个露营地。
This is Wendy.
这是温迪。
Wendy In this campground, all of the teen-- my sister was a teenager at the time.
温迪：在这个露营地里，所有的青少年——我姐姐当时都是青少年。
She was 17 at the time.
当时她17岁。
All the teenagers at this campground, on Friday nights, before they would go out, they would go up to this place, this barn.
这个露营地的所有青少年，周五晚上，在出门之前，他们都会去这个地方，这个谷仓。
It had video games in it, and there was a little place where you could buy penny candy.
里面有电子游戏，还有一个小地方可以买便士糖果。
And one of these Friday nights, I went with my sister up to the barn.
其中一个周五晚上，我和姐姐去了谷仓。
And she had this one friend.
她有这样一个朋友。
And I don't remember her name, but I remember what she looked like.
我不记得她的名字，但我记得她的样子。
I remember she had this blonde, feathered hair.
我记得她有一头金色的羽毛头发。
And she was really pretty.
而且她真的很漂亮。
And she had eye shadow and makeup on, and that was kind of fascinating to me.
她化了眼影、化了妆，这对我来说有点着迷。
And she was wearing this orange jumpsuit.
她穿着这件橙色连身裤。
And it had the zipper down the front.
而且它的前面有拉链。
And it was really-- it just stood out to me.
这真的对我来说很突出。
And at some point, I went over, and I was talking to her.
在某个时候，我走过去，和她说话。
And I don't know why I did it.
我不知道我为什么这么做。
But I just, I had this impulse.
但我只是，我有这样的冲动。
And I just said to her, "Close your eyes." And she did.
我只是对她说：“闭上你的眼睛。”她做到了。
And when she closed her eyes, I reached out, and I grabbed the zipper.
当她闭上眼睛时，我伸出手，抓住了拉链。
And I unzipped her jumpsuit all the way down to the belly button.
我把她连身裤的拉链一直拉到肚脐。
And when I did that, her breasts popped out of the jumpsuit.
当我这样做时，她的胸部从连衣裤中弹出。
And I don't know what I was expecting, but I didn't expect them to pop out like they did.
我不知道我在期待什么，但我没想到他们会像他们那样突然出现。
She wasn't wearing a bra or anything.
她没有穿胸罩或任何东西。
And she screamed.
她尖叫起来。
And she was completely freaked out.
她完全吓坏了。
And I just ran away.
我就逃跑了。
I just ran.
我刚刚跑了。
I ran back to the camper.
我跑回露营车。
Her sister was furious.
她姐姐很生气。
Her parents were furious.
她的父母非常愤怒。
And they kept asking her, over and over, one simple question.
他们一遍又一遍地问她一个简单的问题。
Why would you do such a thing?
你为什么要做这样的事？
Why would you do this?
你为什么要这样做？
And I remember crying and saying, I don't know why I did it.
我记得我哭着说，我不知道我为什么这么做。
I don't know why I did it.
我不知道我为什么这么做。
I don't know why I did it.
我不知道我为什么这么做。
And they kept pushing me, like, why would you do this?
他们一直催促我，比如，你为什么要这么做？
Why would you do this?
你为什么要这样做？
And I had no idea.
我不知道。
But I remember being really tortured by it afterwards, thinking, why would I do it?
但我记得事后我真的被它折磨了，我想，我为什么要这么做？
Why did I do that?
我为什么这么做？
That doesn't make any sense.
这没有任何意义。
Most of us have an idea of what the devil's supposed to be like, red skin, horns, a tail.
我们大多数人都知道魔鬼应该是什么样子，红色的皮肤，角，尾巴。
Sometimes he disguises himself as a dapper gentleman.
有时他会把自己伪装成一位衣冠楚楚的绅士。
Often, he loves to sing.
很多时候，他喜欢唱歌。
And the way that he actually gets you into hell, in the movies, and in operas, and stuff, is that he actually shows up in person.
在电影、歌剧等中，他真正让你陷入地狱的方式是他亲自出现。
He makes a personal appearance with you, and he tries to talk you into it.
他亲自出现在你面前，并试图说服你这样做。
He tempts you with stuff that you want.
他用你想要的东西诱惑你。
Well, there's a way more interesting version of the devil out there in this book by C.
好吧，C 的这本书里有一个更有趣的魔鬼版本。
S.
S。
Lewis called The Screwtape Letters.
刘易斯称之为《螺丝带信件》。
And the idea of the book is that it's a series of letters from this older, very experienced demon named Screwtape to a much younger demon.
这本书的主旨是，这是这个名叫螺丝带（Screwtape）的年长且经验丰富的恶魔写给一个年轻得多的恶魔的一系列信件。
And he's giving him advice.
他正在给他建议。
And at one point, Screwtape says to the younger demon, if you want to commit somebody's soul to hell for eternity, don't try to reason with them.
有一次，螺丝带对年轻的恶魔说，如果你想让某人的灵魂永远下地狱，就不要试图与他们讲道理。
You don't want to be arguing with somebody about what's good for them or bad for them, because you could lose an argument.
您不想与某人争论什么对他们有利或对他们不利，因为您可能会输掉争论。
What's better, what works way, way better, is to simply banish reason from the room.
更好的、更有效的方法就是简单地把理性从房间里驱逐出去。
Screwtape tells this story to the young demon about this atheist who one day is in the library.
螺丝带向年轻的恶魔讲述了这个关于有一天在图书馆里的无神论者的故事。
And in the library, the atheist starts mulling over some godly thoughts, very threatening for Screwtape.
在图书馆里，无神论者开始思考一些神圣的想法，这对螺丝带来说非常具有威胁。
But rather than engage this guy in an argument over God and goodness and all that sort of stuff, Screwtape simply plants the thought in his head, "It's time for lunch."
但是，Screwtape 并没有让这个家伙争论上帝和善良以及诸如此类的事情，而是只是在他的脑海中植入了这样的想法：“该吃午饭了。”
The guy heads outside.
那家伙朝外面走去。
The battle's won.
战斗胜利了。
If you want to lead people into darkness, you don't want reason to even come into play.
如果你想把人们带入黑暗，你就不需要理性发挥作用。
I was a sophomore at the University of North Carolina in Greensboro.
我当时是北卡罗来纳大学格林斯伯勒分校的二年级学生。
This is Dave.
这是戴夫。
One night, he was walking home late from campus down a quiet street, an ordinary night.
一天晚上，他从校园沿着一条安静的街道走回家，这是一个平凡的夜晚。
All of a sudden, I saw a car approaching several blocks away.
突然，我看到一辆汽车驶近几个街区之外。
And it occurred to me that what I should do would be to kneel in the street and be hit by the car.
我突然想到，我应该做的就是跪在街上，然后被车撞。
It seemed to make perfect sense to me.
这对我来说似乎很有意义。
And so that's what I did.
这就是我所做的。
Wait, you actually went out into the street, and you knelt?
等等，你真的走到街上，然后跪下了？
Yes, in the street.
是的，在街上。
And I waited for the car to run over me.
我等着汽车从我身上碾过去。
What happened?
发生了什么？
Dave Well, the car drove up, screeched to a stop just in front of me.
戴夫 好吧，汽车开过来，嘎吱嘎吱地停在我面前。
An older man jumped out of the car and demanded to know what I was doing.
一位年长的男子从车上跳下来，询问我在做什么。
Well, and I didn't know.
嗯，我不知道。
I looked at him, and I said, I don't know.
我看着他，我说，我不知道。
I had no idea.
我不知道。
I had no explanation for him.
我没有给他任何解释。
Now, up until that moment that you made the decision, had you been kind of depressed?
那么，在你做出决定的那一刻之前，你是否感到有些沮丧？
No, I had not.
不，我没有。
I had never, ever considered suicide.
我从来没有考虑过自杀。
I don't remember being sad, depressed, scared.
我不记得我有过悲伤、沮丧、害怕的经历。
The thought simply occurred to me.
我只是想到了这个想法。
It came out of nowhere.
它不知从何而来。
It was a blip.
这只是一个昙花一现。
I still today-- what, 25 years later-- don't understand what that was and why I did that.
25 年后的今天，我仍然不明白那是什么，也不明白我为什么这么做。
Sometimes these stories are about big, life-changing things, sometimes about the tiniest things.
有时这些故事是关于改变生活的大事，有时是关于最微小的事情。
[?
[？
Jonifer ?] was sitting on her couch in Madison, Wisconsin, as her neighbors from across the street walked by outside.
乔尼弗？]坐在威斯康星州麦迪逊市的沙发上，街对面的邻居从外面走过。
Now, ?] I don't know them.
现在，？]我不认识他们。
They've never said anything.
他们从来没有说过任何话。
I don't know their names or anything.
我不知道他们的名字或其他什么。
I turned my head, and I just screamed out the window, "Pigs!" And when I realized what I had done, I couldn't think of why I'd done it.
我转过头，只是对着窗外尖叫：“猪！”当我意识到自己做了什么时，我想不起来为什么要这么做。
Lisa had just learned the Heimlich maneuver from a pamphlet, and was visiting her boyfriend.
丽莎刚刚从一本小册子上学会了海姆立克急救法，并正在拜访她的男朋友。
I just went up behind him.
我刚刚走到他身后。
And he probably thought I was going to give him a hug.
他可能以为我要给他一个拥抱。
But I just did the whole Heimlich maneuver on him, although he was not choking.
但我只是对他进行了整个海姆立克急救法，尽管他没有窒息。
He must have asked, why'd you do that, right?
他肯定问，你为什么这么做，对吧？
Yeah.
是的。
Well, he screamed, because it hurts.
好吧，他尖叫起来，因为很痛。
And he was just confounded.
他只是感到困惑。
And I had no answer.
我没有答案。
It's hard to believe that there are demons and devils urging us to do wrong.
很难相信有恶魔和恶魔在怂恿我们做错事。
But how many of us have done something bad or wrong or just random, totally random, and have no good explanation for it at all?
但我们中有多少人做了坏事、错误的事，或者只是随机的、完全随机的，并且对此没有任何好的解释？
Well, today on our program, with Halloween approaching, the Devil on Your Shoulder, stories of people who are trying to convince you that the devil is there, and stories of people trying to deny that he's there, against, I have to say in these cases, some heavy evidence.
好吧，今天在我们的节目中，随着万圣节的临近，魔鬼在你的肩上，人们试图让你相信魔鬼就在那里的故事，以及人们试图否认他在那里的故事，反对，我不得不说，在这些情况下，一些重要的证据。
Act One of our show, It's Fun to Make Hell on Earth.
我们节目的第一幕，在人间制造地狱很有趣。
In that act, the story of a Christian youth group in Texas that, for three weeks every year, acts out the worst, the meanest, the most despicable behavior possible, all in the name of saving people from hell.
在该剧中，讲述了德克萨斯州一个基督教青年团体的故事，该团体每年都会在三周的时间里，以拯救人们脱离地狱的名义，做出最糟糕、最卑鄙、最卑鄙的行为。
Act Two, Sixteen Candles Can Lead to a Lot of Fire.
第二幕，十六支蜡烛会引发大火。
A young Amish man explains why it is that, after being set free to drink and drive and party at the age of 16, most of his friends choose to go back to the church and back to the Amish lifestyle.
一位年轻的阿米什男子解释了为什么他的大多数朋友在 16 岁就可以喝酒、开车和参加派对后，选择回到教堂，回到阿米什生活方式。
Act Three, Devil in Angel's Clothing, or Is It the Other Way Around?
第三幕，披着天使外衣的魔鬼，还是相反？
the story of a man who did something terrible as a teenager, and then tried to pretend that it never happened for 20 years, and then tried to do something about it, or people tell him he tried to do something about it.
一个男人在青少年时期做了一件可怕的事情，然后试图假装这件事在 20 年内从未发生过，然后试图对此做点什么，或者人们告诉他他试图对此做点什么。
He can't remember himself.
他不记得自己了。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, It's Fun to Make Hell on Earth.
第一幕，在人间制造地狱很有趣。
In 1999, documentary filmmaker George Ratliff read about a church in Cedar Hill, Texas, which is a suburb of Dallas, that was staging a re-creation of the Columbine Massacre.
1999 年，纪录片制片人乔治·拉特利夫 (George Ratliff) 读到，德克萨斯州达拉斯郊区雪松山 (Cedar Hill) 的一座教堂正在重现哥伦拜恩大屠杀。
That church, Trinity Church, was putting on a haunted house called Hell House.
那个教堂，三一教堂，正在建造一座名为地狱屋的鬼屋。
They'd been doing it every year for years, each Halloween.
多年来他们每年都这样做，每个万圣节。
The Columbine scene was just one scene of about a dozen.
哥伦拜恩的场景只是大约十几个场景中的一个。
There was also an abortion scene.
还有堕胎的场面。
There was a scene where a gay man dies of AIDS, and a scene where a mom meets a man on the internet and then deserts her family for that man.
有一个场景是一名同性恋男子死于艾滋病，还有一个场景是一位母亲在互联网上认识了一个男人，然后为了那个男人而抛弃了她的家人。
In each scene, a demon eggs on the sinner.
在每个场景中，罪人身上都会有一个恶魔蛋。
The demon is right there, egging on the bad person.
恶魔就在那里，怂恿坏人。
And the point is, devils are around us, trying to trip us up, every day.
关键是，魔鬼就在我们身边，每天都试图绊倒我们。
Sin is real.
罪是真实的。
The devil's real.
恶魔是真实的。
So you better get right with God.
所以你最好与神和好。
George Ratliff made a film about it, and he agreed to pull some of his footage to play here on the radio for us.
乔治·拉特利夫制作了一部关于此事的电影，他同意将他的一些镜头在广播中为我们播放。
Here he is.
他在这里。
I showed up at Hell House with my cinematographer friend, Jawad Metni.
我和我的电影摄影师朋友贾瓦德·梅特尼一起出现在地狱之家。
We were herded around the place with a group of 40 teenagers clinging to each other and laughing nervously.
我们被一群 40 名青少年围成一团，互相依偎着，紧张地笑着。
A large man dressed in a black hooded robe and a skeleton mask was assigned to our group as our tour guide.
一个身穿黑色连帽长袍、戴着骷髅面具的大个子男子被分配到我们的团队中担任我们的导游。
There's a lot of people here.
这里有很多人。
You're going to step as much to the front of the line as you can.
您将尽可能地走到队伍的前面。
Follow me.
跟我来。
We'd line up against the back wall of the Columbine School scene, which is basically just a room with a card table stacked with books and a few school desks scattered around.
我们会靠着哥伦拜恩学校场景的后墙排队，这基本上只是一个房间，里面有一张牌桌，上面堆满了书，周围散落着几张课桌。
Among a dozen or so student actors, two squeaky clean church girls sit at the card table, talking.
在十几名学生演员中，两个干净整洁的教堂女孩坐在牌桌旁聊天。
Behind them, an angry demon, also dressed in a black robe and mask, paces back and forth, wringing his hands.
在他们身后，一个同样身穿黑袍、戴着面具的愤怒恶魔来回踱着步，绞着双手。
Are you having a hard time with that?
你对此感到困难吗？
I don't know--
我不知道——
Their conversation about Shakespeare turns to Carrie's recent conversion to Christianity.
他们关于莎士比亚的谈话转向嘉莉最近皈依基督教。
She says she used to hate her parents and especially hated God.
她说她曾经恨她的父母，尤其恨上帝。
"I'm a Christian now," she says.
“我现在是基督徒了，”她说。
"That's why I'm always so happy."
“这就是为什么我总是那么高兴。”
Yeah, I'm a Christian now.
是的，我现在是基督徒了。
That's why I'm so happy.
这就是为什么我如此高兴。
[SCREAMING] George Ratliff Two teenage boys in black trench coats explode into the room, followed by another demon.
[尖叫]乔治·拉特利夫 两个穿着黑色风衣的十几岁男孩冲进房间，后面跟着另一个恶魔。
To my surprise, the boys are waving real handguns and real shotguns as they charge through the scene, kicking over tables and chairs.
令我惊讶的是，男孩们挥舞着真正的手枪和真正的猎枪，冲过现场，踢翻桌椅。
[SCREAMING] The whole scene is so violent that you forget about everything that reminds you of a bad high school play.
[尖叫]整个场景是如此暴力，以至于你忘记了所有让你想起一场糟糕的高中戏剧的事情。
And what makes it scary is the look of real teen angst on the shooters' faces as they cock and aim their guns at the heads of all the cowering students.
令人恐惧的是，当枪手们举起枪瞄准所有畏缩的学生的头部时，他们脸上流露出真正的青少年焦虑的表情。
You can see how they love waving around their firearms.
你可以看到他们多么喜欢挥舞着他们的枪支。
And part of what's so shocking is you wonder, who are the good churchgoing adults who came up with this idea and helped the kids finance and organize and stage this?
令人震惊的部分原因是你想知道，谁是那些去教堂的好成年人，他们提出了这个想法，并帮助孩子们资助、组织和上演这个想法？
Remember, we're filming just six months after the real Columbine killings.
请记住，我们是在真正的哥伦拜恩杀戮发生六个月后拍摄的。
One of the trench coat boys grabs Carrie, the Christian girl, by the hair.
一名穿着风衣的男孩抓住了基督徒女孩嘉莉的头发。
[GUNSHOT] George Ratliff After the boys shoot Carrie in the head, the demons perform their final task, egging the boys on to kill themselves.
[枪声]乔治·拉特利夫 在男孩们向嘉莉的头部开枪后，恶魔执行了他们的最后任务，怂恿男孩们自杀。
Then, the lights turn to strobes, the music swells, and a teenager in a white choir robe enters.
然后，灯光变成闪光灯，音乐响起，一个穿着白色唱诗班长袍的少年走了进来。
It's Jesus.
是耶稣。
He's come for Carrie, the Christian girl.
他是来找嘉莉的，那个基督徒女孩。
The shooters are dragged off to hell, kicking and screaming, and pleading to Jesus for a second chance.
枪手们被拖入地狱，又踢又叫，恳求耶稣再给一次机会。
But he doesn't give it.
但他不给。
Please come back!
请回来！
George Ratliff Then, our tour guide reappears.
乔治·拉特利夫 然后，我们的导游又出现了。
He shuffles us off to the next room, the family violence scene, as another group of 40 shuffle in.
他拖着我们走向隔壁的房间，那是家庭暴力的现场，另一群 40 人拖着拖着进来。
Two days later, Jawad and I went home to New York and watched what we'd filmed.
两天后，贾瓦德和我回到纽约的家，观看了我们拍摄的内容。
We were both a bit shaken up by what we had seen.
我们都对所看到的感到有点震惊。
I grew up in Amarillo, Texas, where one of the only ways to meet girls was to go to Christian youth meetings.
我在德克萨斯州阿马里洛长大，在那里结识女孩的唯一途径之一就是参加基督教青年聚会。
And there were so many.
而且有很多。
There was Young Life and K-Life and Campus Crusade and Fellowship of Christian Athletes, not to mention that every one of the hundreds of churches had their own youth groups, hustling out to schools to compete for an ever-decreasing number of unsaved souls.
还有Young Life、K-Life、Campus Crusade和基督教运动员联谊会，更不用说数百个教会中的每一个都有自己的青年团体，涌入学校争夺越来越少的未得救的灵魂。
I honestly thought I had heard every evangelical Christian trick in the book.
老实说，我以为我听过书中的每一个福音派基督徒的把戏。
But Hell House was different.
但地狱屋不同。
The special effects, and the music, and the real guns, and the crowds and crowds of people lined up to get in, I'd never seen anything like it.
特效、音乐、真枪、排队入场的人群，我从来没有见过这样的场景。
So in August of 2000, we went back to Cedar Hill.
于是在2000年8月，我们回到了雪松山。
There's 30 people in the room, and you are in hell.
房间里有 30 个人，而你就在地狱里。
And you're burning.
而你正在燃烧。
So let's have some [UNINTELLIGIBLE].
那么让我们来一些[无法理解]。
Two months before Hell House opens each year, they have auditions at the church.
每年地狱之家开放前两个月，他们都会在教堂进行试镜。
The casting directors sit at a long table in front of a stage.
选角导演坐在舞台前的一张长桌旁。
One after another, nervous kids read for the drug dealer, the satanic worshipper, the school shooter, or the abusive father.
紧张的孩子们一个接一个地为毒贩、撒旦崇拜者、校园枪击案凶手或虐待父亲而读书。
It's your own fault.
这是你自己的错。
And what if you were pregnant?
如果你怀孕了怎么办？
Do you really want to be your own sister's mother?
你真的想成为你妹妹的妈妈吗？
The girls all want to be the suicide girl or the abortion girl, because those are the roles where you get to scream and cry and emote the most.
女孩们都想成为自杀女孩或堕胎女孩，因为这些是你最容易尖叫、哭泣和情绪激动的角色。
I should have gotten away from you the second that you started drinking.
你一开始喝酒我就应该离开你。
This is all your fault.
这都是你的错。
Nearly everyone wants to play a sinner.
几乎每个人都想扮演罪人。
Nobody wants to play a saint.
没有人愿意扮演圣人。
Not one person auditioned to play Jesus or an angel role.
没有人去试镜扮演耶稣或天使的角色。
Maybe it's just more fun to be evil on stage than good.
也许在舞台上作恶比作善更有趣。
Maybe playing a churchgoing, god-fearing Christian is just not that interesting if you are a churchgoing, god-fearing Christian.
如果你是一个去教堂、敬畏上帝的基督徒，也许扮演一个去教堂、敬畏上帝的基督徒就没那么有趣了。
The organizers usually have to go out and recruit some hapless kids to play the good Christian roles.
组织者通常不得不出去招募一些不幸的孩子来扮演基督徒的好角色。
[CONSTRUCTION SOUNDS] Every day for six weeks, as many as 75 volunteers will show up to help build Hell House.
[施工声音] 在六周的时间里，每天都会有多达 75 名志愿者来帮助建造地狱屋。
It's an enormous construction site that they have to tear down and rebuild every year.
这是一个巨大的建筑工地，他们每年都必须拆除和重建。
There are people everywhere carrying wood, swinging hammers, and painting signs.
到处都有人拿着木头、挥舞着锤子、画着标语。
An enthusiastic volunteer named Thad Trober took us on a quick tour during construction.
一位名叫萨德·特罗伯（Thad Trober）的热心志愿者带我们快速参观了施工期间。
We'll come back in here.
我们会回到这里。
The crucifixion is going to be right here.
受难就在这里。
Coffins are going in right here.
棺材就在这里放进去。
And the people who are watching are going to be looking right down in, seeing people trapped, and give them a sense of entrapment themselves.
观看的人会直接往下看，看到人们被困住，并给他们一种自己被困住的感觉。
I really want to emphasize that more than anything in here, like there's absolutely no escape.
我真的想强调的是，这里最重要的是，就像绝对没有逃脱的地方一样。
And then we arrive at the room that's Thad's baby.
然后我们到达了泰德孩子的房间。
Thad, who wears a goatee and techno clothes, has seen what goes on in raves firsthand, the sex, the drugs, the alcohol, back in the old days, before he was a Christian.
萨德留着山羊胡，穿着高科技服装，他在成为基督徒之前就亲眼目睹了狂欢节中发生的事情：性、毒品、酒精。
Thad told us that he'd only gone to raves to hear the music.
泰德告诉我们，他去狂欢只是为了听音乐。
But then it became too hard for him to ignore what was going on around him.
但随后他就很难忽视周围发生的事情了。
So he had to stop raving.
所以他必须停止胡言乱语。
But now, every October, Thad gets to create his own rave at Hell House.
但现在，每年十月，泰德都会在地狱之家举办自己的狂欢派对。
It's going to look pretty cool.
它看起来会很酷。
Just like all the other scenes, we're going to have some plastic down each wall.
就像所有其他场景一样，我们将在每面墙上贴上一些塑料。
But there will be a DJ, which I've played the last couple years.
但会有一位 DJ，我过去几年一直在演奏。
We'll have a makeshift turntable area.
我们将有一个临时转盘区域。
I don't know if I'll use these lights yet.
我不知道我是否会使用这些灯。
I'll probably stick some black lights up, and that'll be great.
我可能会放一些黑灯，那就太好了。
And I'm actually thinking about renting a water tank.
我实际上正在考虑租一个水箱。
And I'll have someone underwater dance.
我会让人在水下跳舞。
There's something neat every year.
每年都会有一些好看的东西。
It's not within the nature of man to lose.
失去并不是人的本性。
God created us to win.
上帝创造我们是为了赢得胜利。
Before Hell House opens in early October, Tim Ferguson brings everyone together for a pep talk.
在地狱之家于 10 月初开业之前，蒂姆·弗格森 (Tim Ferguson) 将所有人聚集在一起进行了鼓舞士气的演讲。
Tim has an intensity about him that reminds you more of a football coach than a minister.
蒂姆身上的热情让人想起他更像是一位足球教练而不是一位部长。
He squeezes the microphone and stares at a roomful of church kids.
他捏紧麦克风，盯着一屋子教堂的孩子。
Behind him, three young men are noodling backup music on their electric guitars.
在他身后，三个年轻人正在用电吉他演奏伴奏音乐。
And there's a war, and there's a battle, and there's a competition.
有战争，有战斗，有竞争。
And there's a serious game where life and death is at stake.
这是一场生死攸关的严肃游戏。
It's not just you lose and you go home.
这不仅仅是你输了然后你就回家了。
We're competing for lost souls.
我们正在为迷失的灵魂而竞争。
And we're going to win.
我们会赢。
We're in this to win.
我们是为了胜利。
We're not in this just to go through it, just for something else to do.
我们来这里不仅仅是为了经历它，只是为了做其他事情。
I don't need something else to do.
我不需要做其他事情。
OK?
好的？
And just when everyone's getting really worked up, they start speaking in tongues.
就在每个人都变得非常激动的时候，他们开始说方言。
Trinity Church is an Assembly of God church, which is a branch of the Pentecostals.
三一教会是神召会教会，是五旬节派的一个分支。
Pentecostals are known as the church that speaks in tongues, and they're the fastest-growing Christian church in the world.
五旬节派被称为说方言的教会，他们是世界上发展最快的基督教会。
They started less than 100 years ago in Los Angeles.
他们始于不到 100 年前的洛杉矶。
And they've always been able to put on a good production for large audiences.
他们总是能够为广大观众奉献出精彩的作品。
They were the first church to use electric guitars, one of the first to break into TV evangelism, and the first to think up Hell House.
他们是第一个使用电吉他的教堂，是第一个进入电视布道的教堂，也是第一个想出地狱屋的教堂。
Hundreds of teenagers are lined up to go into Hell House.
数百名青少年排队进入地狱屋。
It's a pretty diverse crowd, large groups of Hispanic and African-American kids mixed in with the suburban white crowd, all paying $7 each for a ticket.
这是一个相当多元化的人群，一大群西班牙裔和非裔美国孩子与郊区的白人人群混在一起，所有人都支付每人 7 美元的门票。
It looks to be the same demographic as at Six Flags.
看起来与六旗游乐园的人口结构相同。
But in fact, most of these kids have been bused here by youth leaders from the area.
但事实上，这些孩子中的大多数都是由该地区的青年领袖用公交车送到这里的。
Once they get inside, they see kids committing suicide, being killed by drunk drivers, and being sacrificed to the devil.
他们一进去，就看到孩子们自杀、被醉酒司机杀害、被献祭给魔鬼。
In the hospital scene, the abortion girl sits in a pool of fake blood.
在医院场景中，堕胎女孩坐在假血泊中。
She's wearing white sweat pants, and her crotch is completely soaked in red.
她穿着白色运动裤，胯部完全被红色浸透。
Next to her, a gay teenager dies over and over from AIDS.
在她旁边，一名同性恋青少年一次又一次死于艾滋病。
He dies every 7 to 10 minutes, every night, for three weeks straight.
他每晚每 7 到 10 分钟就会死亡一次，连续三周如此。
This is Steve.
这是史蒂夫。
He thought his homosexual lifestyle was everything a real man could want.
他认为他的同性恋生活方式就是一个真正的男人所想要的一切。
But now, he's dying of AIDS.
但现在，他死于艾滋病。
Steve, I'm right here.
史蒂夫，我就在这里。
I'm not going to leave.
我不会离开。
Why does this happen to me?
为什么我会发生这种事？
Why can't it just be over?
为什么就不能结束呢？
Outside the house, in an area visitors don't have access to, I ran into a group of performers that had just knocked off from their shift at being tortured in hell.
在房子外面，在游客无法进入的区域，我遇到了一群刚刚下班的表演者，他们在地狱里遭受酷刑。
It's obvious they've been having a good time.
看得出来他们玩得很开心。
I asked them what was the most fun scene in Hell House.
我问他们《地狱屋》里最好玩的场景是什么。
School shooting.
学校枪击事件。
Girl Yeah, school shooting's the best.
女孩 是的，校园枪击案是最好的。
It's the rave.
这是狂欢节。
Girl The rave scene's the best, because you get to dance.
女孩 锐舞场景是最好的，因为你可以跳舞。
I'm Jessica.
我是杰西卡。
Thad Trober Jessica, I'm Chad.
泰德·特罗伯·杰西卡，我是查德。
Even though you get to dance, the rave scene does not end well.
即使你可以跳舞，狂欢场景也不会结束。
The girl in it sips her spiked drink, freaks out, gets gang-raped, and ends up killing herself, after admitting that her dad had molested her as a child.
里面的女孩喝了一杯加了酒精的饮料，吓坏了，被轮奸，最后在承认小时候被父亲猥亵过之后自杀了。
Good stuff, isn't it?
好东西，不是吗？
George Ratliff So once a group of visitors makes it all the way through the gory scenes, they come to what is called the "decision room."
乔治·拉特利夫（George Ratliff） 因此，一旦一群参观者完成了血腥场景，他们就会来到所谓的“决策室”。
How y'all doing?
你们好吗？
Can I get you to line up over here, please?
我可以请你到这里排队吗？
Yeah, straight line as possible.
是的，尽可能直线。
OK, as you saw in each scene, someone died.
好吧，正如你在每个场景中看到的那样，有人死了。
They went to either heaven or hell.
他们要么去了天堂，要么去了地狱。
If you were to die tonight, do you know where you will go?
如果你今晚死去，你知道你会去哪里吗？
Or do you think that you know?
或者你认为你知道吗？
If this is you, I want to ask you to step through the door.
如果这是你，我想请你进门。
There are people in the next room waiting to pray with you now.
现在隔壁房间有人等着和你一起祈祷。
You've got six seconds.
你有六秒钟的时间。
Five seconds.
五秒钟。
Of the 40 people in this group, about 10 go to pray with the counselors.
这群人有 40 人，大约有 10 人去和辅导员一起祈祷。
The 30 others are held back a minute, and then they're marched to the exit.
另外 30 个人被耽搁了一分钟，然后他们就被带往出口。
But it turns out that the damned have to exit through the same door as the saved.
但事实证明，被诅咒的人必须与得救的人从同一扇门出去。
There's only one exit, and it's on the other side of the room of crying and praying Christians and counselors.
只有一个出口，位于基督徒和辅导员哭泣和祈祷的房间的另一边。
The 30 shuffle through guiltily, with their heads down, trying not to catch anyone's eye.
30 个人愧疚地拖着脚步走过，低着头，尽量不引起任何人的注意。
Do you believe in God?
你相信上帝吗？
George Ratliff About 13,000 people went through Hell House this year alone.
乔治·拉特利夫 (George Ratliff) 仅今年一年就有大约 13,000 人参观过地狱屋。
Trinity Church claims that as many as one out of five people that go through Hell House become Christians or recommit themselves to the church.
三一教会声称，经历过地狱之家的人中有多达五分之一成为基督徒或重新皈依教会。
When we die, we can go to heaven and be with Jesus.
当我们死后，我们可以去天堂与耶稣在一起。
It's so awesome.
太棒了。
It's radical, yeah.
这很激进，是的。
If you ask the teenagers at Hell House straight up if they have fun pretending to shoot their classmates or do drugs at a rave, they're all good Christian kids and know better than to admit that they enjoyed themselves.
如果你直接问地狱之家的青少年，他们假装射杀同学或在狂欢派对上吸毒是否有趣，他们都是好基督徒孩子，知道不应该承认自己很享受。
"Our goal is to save souls and make money for the church," they'll tell you.
“我们的目标是拯救灵魂并为教会赚钱，”他们会告诉你。
And they'll mean it.
他们会认真的。
But Hell House is the biggest event of the year for Trinity Church.
但地狱屋是三一教堂今年最大的活动。
After three weeks of performances, after Halloween comes and goes, the kids all get dressed up to the nines for an event that is the equivalent of prom night for them.
经过三周的表演，万圣节来来去去，孩子们都盛装打扮，参加一场对他们来说相当于舞会之夜的活动。
They call it the Hell House Oscars.
他们称之为“地狱屋奥斯卡”。
On stage at a podium, in front of a table of Oscar-like trophies, presenters banter and give awards for best tour guide, best abortion girl, best drunk driver, best gremlin, and best archangel.
在讲台上的舞台上，在一张奥斯卡般的奖杯前，主持人们开着玩笑，为最佳导游、最佳堕胎女孩、最佳醉酒司机、最佳小魔怪和最佳大天使颁发奖项。
Remember, three to six teenagers play each part in the house.
请记住，三到六个青少年在房子里扮演每个角色。
This year's suicide award goes to Liz Simmons!
今年的自杀奖颁给了莉兹·西蒙斯！
Come on out.
出来吧。
Liz Simmons, in a floor-length gown, pluckily hops out of her seat, hugging friends, waving to photographers, and makes her way to the stage.
莉兹·西蒙斯穿着一件及地礼服，勇敢地从座位上跳起来，拥抱朋友，向摄影师挥手，然后走上舞台。
Well, I couldn't have done it without my rapers, so thank you, Brent and David.
好吧，如果没有强奸者，我不可能做到这一点，所以谢谢你们，布伦特和大卫。
And I just want to say, it was really an honor to do this part.
我只想说，能够担任这个角色真的很荣幸。
At first, I was real uncomfortable with it, you know, when I heard that I was going to have to be raped.
起初，当我听说我将不得不被强奸时，我真的感到很不舒服。
And I was like, OK, what's that going to be like?
我当时想，好吧，那会是什么样子？
But it ended up being a lot of fun, and--
但最终却很有趣，而且——
[LAUGHTER] OK, wait, I didn't say that right.
[笑声] 好吧，等等，我没说对。
No, I just really got to meet a lot of people that I didn't know, and I had a-- OK, this is only getting worse.
不，我只是遇到了很多我不认识的人，而且我——好吧，情况只会变得更糟。
She lifts her fake Oscar and walks off stage.
她举起假奥斯卡奖牌走下舞台。
In the dozen years since Trinity Church invented Hell House, the idea has spread all over the country.
自从三一教会发明地狱屋以来的十几年里，这个想法已经传遍了全国。
No one knows how many Hell Houses are out there now, but a church in Colorado has sold over 500 Hell House franchise kits with layout designs, scripts, and a video, for $200 each.
没有人知道现在有多少个地狱屋，但科罗拉多州的一座教堂已经售出了 500 多个地狱屋特许经营套件，其中包括布局设计、脚本和视频，每个售价 200 美元。
Let's give a big hand to Mr. Jonathan Parker, the winner of the school violence director's award.
让我们向校园暴力导演奖获得者乔纳森·帕克先生表示热烈的掌声。
These church kids aren't supposed to drink.
这些教堂里的孩子不应该喝酒。
They aren't supposed to party or sleep together.
他们不应该一起聚会或睡觉。
But tonight, they glitter like sinners.
但今晚，他们像罪人一样闪闪发光。
Unlike the real Oscars, no one complains that this ceremony lasts too long.
与真正的奥斯卡不同，没有人抱怨这个颁奖典礼持续太久。
I had a great time with all of my suicide girls.
我和所有自杀的女孩度过了一段美好的时光。
I got to act with every single one of you almost every night.
我几乎每天晚上都要和你们每一个人一起表演。
George Ratliff, you can find his movie Hell House online at hellhousemovie.com.
乔治·拉特利夫 (George Ratliff)，您可以在 hellhousemovie.com 在线观看他的电影《地狱屋》。
The church George mentions in Colorado has now sold over 800 Hell House starter kits to churches in every state and in 24 countries, as well as to secular theater companies in New York and Los Angeles.
乔治提到的科罗拉多州教堂现已向各州和 24 个国家的教堂以及纽约和洛杉矶的世俗剧院公司出售了 800 多个地狱屋入门套件。
In Los Angeles, Bill Maher played the devil.
在洛杉矶，比尔·马赫扮演魔鬼。
[MUSIC PLAYING - "THE DEVIL WENT DOWN TO GEORGIA" BY THE CHARLIE DANIELS BAND]
[音乐播放 - 查理·丹尼尔斯乐队的《魔鬼降临乔治亚》]
Act Two, Sixteen Candles Can Lead to a Lot of Fire.
第二幕，十六支蜡烛会引发大火。
Faron Yoder lives in Amish country, in Indiana.
Faron Yoder 住在印第安纳州的阿米什乡村。
And I interviewed him from his parents' house, where he lives.
我在他居住的父母家采访了他。
For this to happen, somebody had to go there with a cell phone.
为此，必须有人带着手机去那里。
And he talked to me from his room.
他在他的房间里和我说话。
I was in our radio studio.
我当时在我们的广播工作室。
Faron lives differently from everybody in his family.
法隆的生活方式与家里每个人都不同。
And his room is different from the rest of the house.
而且他的房间与房子的其他地方不同。
The rest of the house is very Amish.
房子的其余部分非常阿米什风格。
Well, the whole house is actually very Amish, no electricity, gas lighting.
嗯，整个房子其实很阿米什风格，没有电，煤气照明。
In my room, I've got a TV.
我的房间里有一台电视。
I've got a stereo.
我有一个立体声音响。
I've got a PlayStation 2.
我有一台 PlayStation 2。
A lot of my friends come over here.
我的很多朋友都来这里。
We play PlayStation and just hang out, drink beer.
我们玩PlayStation，然后出去玩，喝啤酒。
How do you have electricity if the rest of the house doesn't?
如果房子的其他部分都没有电，你怎么能用电呢？
Well, actually, I've got an electrical cord.
嗯，实际上，我有一根电线。
This is kind of funny, probably.
这可能有点有趣。
But I've got an electrical cord that runs up to my TV and to everything.
但我有一根电线可以连接到我的电视和所有东西。
And then I've got it going out my window.
然后我就把它从窗外扔出去了。
And I run the cord out to my car.
我把电线接到我的车上。
And so I just go out , start up the car, and plug in the electrical cord.
所以我就出去，启动汽车，然后插上电源线。
And I spend the whole night up here and don't have to worry about it.
我整夜都在这儿度过，不用担心。
We heard about Faron through a movie called Devil's Playground, which is about the Amish rite of rumspringa.
我们通过一部名为“魔鬼游乐场”的电影听说了法隆，这部电影讲述的是阿米什人的朗斯普林加仪式。
Rumspringa has been in the news a bit lately, partly, I think, because all of us regular Americans like stories where the Amish sink as low as we do.
拉姆斯普林加最近出现在新闻中，我想，部分原因是我们所有的普通美国人都喜欢阿米什人像我们一样堕落的故事。
In case you've never heard of it, rumspringa works like this.
如果您从未听说过，朗斯普林加的工作原理如下。
At 16, Amish teenagers are told they can drive, they can drink, they can use modern electronics.
16 岁时，阿米什青少年被告知他们可以开车、可以喝酒、可以使用现代电子产品。
They can try all the things the outside world has to offer.
他们可以尝试外面世界提供的一切。
And then, after a few years, at 19 or 20 or 21, they will be in a position to decide what they want to do with their lives.
然后，几年后，在 19 岁、20 岁或 21 岁的时候，他们将能够决定自己想要做什么。
If they want to live like regular Americans, they are free to go.
如果他们想像普通美国人一样生活，他们可以自由离开。
If they want to commit to the church and the Amish way of life, they get baptized.
如果他们想皈依教会和阿米什人的生活方式，他们就会接受洗礼。
And they're expected to stay in the Amish community until they die.
他们预计将留在阿米什社区直到去世。
In short, they're asked to make a decision that most of us make gradually every day about how we're going to live our lives in these few years, when they're teenagers.
简而言之，他们被要求做出我们大多数人每天都会逐渐做出的决定，关于在他们十几岁时我们将如何生活。
Faron is 21, and after his rumspringa, he has not chosen the church.
Faron 21 岁了，在经历了 rumspringa 之后，他没有选择教堂。
During that time, as the film Devil's Playground shows, he got into a lot of trouble.
在那段时间，正如电影《魔鬼游乐场》所展示的那样，他遇到了很多麻烦。
Not only did he develop a $100-a-day crystal meth habit, he sold drugs.
他不仅养成了每天 100 美元冰毒的习惯，还贩卖毒品。
He got in trouble with the law.
他触犯了法律。
Right now, he's facing 14 months in prison for all that.
目前，他将因此面临 14 个月的监禁。
He says that before he turned 16, back before his rumspringa began, he had a whole list of things that he knew he wanted to do.
他说，在他 16 岁之前，也就是他的 rumspringa 开始之前，他有一整套他知道自己想做的事情。
I wanted, well, pretty much everything.
我几乎想要一切。
I just wanted to be a normal kid and have a normal life.
我只想做一个正常的孩子，过正常的生活。
Everybody else was coming to school with Walkmans and going home and playing PlayStation.
其他人都带着随身听去学校，回家玩 PlayStation。
It was just everything, from going shopping to just-- I was envious of everything that everybody else had.
这就是一切，从购物到只是——我羡慕其他人拥有的一切。
When you're sheltered all your life, you consider pretty much everybody else as, "Aw, man.
当你一生都受到庇护时，你几乎会认为其他人都是这样的：“噢，伙计。
They're lucky as hell, because they've got all this stuff." And I just wanted to have that.
他们非常幸运，因为他们拥有所有这些东西。”我只是想拥有它。
I wanted to be that.
我想成为那样的人。
What was the first thing you did on the first day after you turned 16, and you had the freedom to do what you wanted?
16 岁之后，你可以自由地做自己想做的事，第一天你做的第一件事是什么？
On the first day, I went and got rid of my Amish haircut, went and got rid of my Amish clothes, bought regular clothes.
第一天，我去掉了阿米什发型，去掉了阿米什衣服，买了普通衣服。
And it was a Friday or Saturday night.
那是周五或周六的晚上。
It was on a weekend.
那是一个周末。
And I got drunk and just, I thought I was the coolest thing in the world.
我喝醉了，我以为我是世界上最酷的人。
One of the teenage girls in the movie, Velda, says, "God talks to me in one ear, Satan in the other.
电影中的一个十几岁的女孩维尔达说：“上帝用一只耳朵对我说话，撒旦用另一只耳朵对我说话。
Part of me wants to be like my parents, but the other part wants the jeans, the haircut, to do what I want." Is that your experience, too?
我的一部分想要像我的父母一样，但另一部分想要牛仔裤、发型，做我想做的事。”你的经历也是这样吗？
Or was it your experience, this feeling of, OK, God's in one ear, and Satan is in the other?
或者是你的经历，这种感觉，好吧，上帝在一只耳朵里，而撒旦在另一只耳朵里？
Well, actually, I ignored God for a long time.
嗯，事实上，我很长一段时间都忽视了上帝。
And for a long time, I told everybody that I was atheist.
很长一段时间，我告诉所有人我是无神论者。
I think I've really searched a lot and struggled to listen to God.
我想我确实进行了很多寻找并努力聆听上帝的声音。
And was there any part of you where you were afraid that if you didn't return to the Amish lifestyle, that you would be punished, that you would go to hell?
你是否有任何一部分担心，如果你不回到阿米什人的生活方式，你会受到惩罚，你会下地狱？
Yeah, definitely.
是的，绝对是。
There was always that fear.
总是有那种恐惧。
And there still is sometimes.
有时仍然存在。
I guess not anymore, but there used to be, until just lately.
我想现在不会了，但以前有，直到最近。
It was always at the back of my mind, always nagging me.
它一直在我的脑海里，一直困扰着我。
There was this fear that, hey, you're going to hell, because you're not living a Christian life, and you're not Amish.
有人担心，嘿，你会下地狱，因为你没有过基督徒的生活，也不是阿米什人。
I don't know.
我不知道。
It was just, I don't feel that one has to be Amish to get into heaven, of course, but I feel that that is probably the easiest way, or one of the easiest ways to attain that.
只是，当然，我不认为一个人必须是阿米什人才能进入天堂，但我觉得这可能是最简单的方法，或者是实现这一目标的最简单方法之一。
Do you think hell exists?
你认为地狱存在吗？
Faron Yoder According to the Bible, yes.
Faron Yoder 根据圣经，是的。
And do you believe it?
你相信吗？
Faron Yoder I don't know exactly what I believe right now.
Faron Yoder 我现在不太清楚我到底相信什么。
We're doing another story in this week's radio show about these teenagers outside Dallas.
我们将在本周的广播节目中制作另一个关于达拉斯郊外青少年的故事。
And there's a church youth group that they're part of that does something called a Hell House, where every Halloween, they stage all the ways that somebody can end up in hell.
他们所在的一个教会青年团体会做一个叫做“地狱之家”的活动，每年万圣节，他们都会上演各种可能让某人下地狱的方式。
And the idea is to scare people so bad, and young people especially, that they'll never try anything.
这个想法是为了吓唬人们，尤其是年轻人，让他们永远不会尝试任何事情。
They'll never try to drink.
他们永远不会尝试喝酒。
They'll never try to do drugs.
他们永远不会尝试吸毒。
They'll never try to do anything bad.
他们永远不会尝试做任何坏事。
And the idea of this church group is that that will bring teenagers to God.
这个教会团体的想法是让青少年归向上帝。
And you were raised with exactly the opposite philosophy, where, once you become a teenager, the church elders are saying to you, "OK, go out.
你是在完全相反的哲学中长大的，一旦你成为青少年，教会的长老就会对你说：“好吧，出去吧。
Try everything, and then you'll discover actually choosing God is the right choice." Which do you think might be better?
尝试一切，然后你就会发现选择上帝实际上是正确的选择。”您认为哪个可能更好？
I think the Amish approach is definitely better.
我认为阿米什人的方法肯定更好。
Whereas in the Hell House there, I feel that you should be scared of God, yes, but that shouldn't be the reason that you follow Jesus.
而在地狱之家，我觉得你应该害怕上帝，是的，但这不应该成为你跟随耶稣的原因。
One should make that choice because he wants to and he feels that that's the best way to live, not just because, oh, I'll go to hell if I don't.
一个人应该做出这样的选择，因为他愿意，而且他觉得这是最好的生活方式，而不仅仅是因为，哦，如果我不这样做，我就会下地狱。
Do you think it's an advantage to their way to try to protect their kids?
您认为他们保护孩子的方式有优势吗？
I think there are people all over this country who are trying to protect their kids from all the bad things that your elders sort of pushed you towards, partying, and you know.
我认为全国各地都有人试图保护他们的孩子免受长辈们推动的所有坏事的影响，比如聚会，你知道。
I don't know.
我不知道。
But just my own opinion, I think it will do more harm than good.
但仅就我个人的观点而言，我认为这样做弊大于利。
Why?
为什么？
Faron Yoder Well, just for myself, if somebody tells me, "Hey, you can't do this, or you're going to get punished," I'm going to say, "Watch me get away with it."
Faron Yoder 好吧，就我自己而言，如果有人告诉我，“嘿，你不能这样做，否则你会受到惩罚，”我会说，“看着我逃脱惩罚。”
I wondered, are the church elders in your church counting on the fact that, when you go out and you see what the rest of the world is like, it won't seem so great?
我想知道，你们教会的教会长老是否指望这样一个事实：当你出去看看世界其他地方的情况时，情况不会看起来那么好？
Well, yeah, I think that's kind of the point.
嗯，是的，我认为这就是重点。
Because you get out, and you see that there are so many unhappy people in the world.
因为你走出去，你会发现世界上有那么多不快乐的人。
And I'm not saying that there aren't any unhappy Amish people.
我并不是说阿米什人不存在。
But still, I think the larger percentage of Amish people, really happy and content with what they have, even if they don't have that much.
但我仍然认为，较大比例的阿米什人对自己拥有的东西感到非常高兴和满足，即使他们没有那么多。
I think in the film it says something, about 85% of Amish kids go back to the Amish way of life.
我认为电影中表达了一些东西，大约 85% 的阿米什孩子回到了阿米什生活方式。
90%, they said.
90%，他们说。
Faron Yoder 90%.
法伦·约德 90%。
OK.
好的。
Most people go back.
大多数人都会回去。
Because really, the Amish way of life is an attractive lifestyle.
因为实际上，阿米什人的生活方式是一种有吸引力的生活方式。
You don't have all the modern things, or whatever, but as far as peace, tranquility, and have a calm life, it's beautiful.
你没有所有现代的东西，什么的，但就平和、安宁、平静的生活而言，它是美丽的。
90% of the people go back.
90%的人都会回去。
And so how are you different?
那么你有何不同呢？
Well, I got into drugs.
好吧，我开始吸毒了。
And I, well, just to tell the truth, I lost most of my Amish friends, and had to go out and find others.
而我，好吧，说实话，我失去了大部分阿米什朋友，不得不出去寻找其他人。
Yeah.
是的。
Oh, I see.
我懂了。
So you actually had to make a life outside of the Amish community.
所以你实际上必须在阿米什社区之外谋生。
So then it was easier just to stay out.
所以，留在外面就更容易了。
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
是的，是的，绝对是的。
Once you have a life outside the Amish community, it's kind of hard to get back in.
一旦你离开了阿米什社区，就很难再回到阿米什社区了。
How are you doing?
你好吗？
Are you as happy, do you think, as your friends who went back to the Amish way of life?
你认为你和那些回归阿米什生活方式的朋友一样快乐吗？
I think so.
我想是的。
I'm-- I don't know.
我——我不知道。
I always have a-- I don't know about happy.
我总是有一种——我不知道什么是快乐。
I'm just more relaxed now.
我现在只是轻松多了。
And do you have moments where you actually find yourself still wondering, "Oh, I wonder if I would have been better off if I had gone back"?
你是否有过这样的时刻，你实际上发现自己仍然在想，“哦，我想知道如果我回去的话，我的生活是否会更好”？
Yeah, yeah, I do.
是的，是的，我愿意。
Not very often, but there are times.
虽然不是很频繁，但也有那么几次。
I wonder where I'd be, or who I'd be, if I would have made the choice just to stay Amish and be this responsible young man.
我想知道如果我选择留在阿米什并成为这个负责任的年轻人，我会在哪里，或者我会是谁。
Faron Yoder, the film he's in is called Devil's Playground.
Faron Yoder，他参演的电影叫《魔鬼游乐场》。
You can find copies of it online.
您可以在线找到它的副本。
Coming up, if you do good, but you do not remember it, and maybe you did not even intend to do good in the first place, does it count?
那么如果你做了好事，但是你不记得了，也许你一开始就没有打算做好事，这算不算？
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life .
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose some theme, bring you a variety of different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，每周我们的节目都会选择一些主题，为您带来关于该主题的各种不同类型的故事。
Today's program, Devil on My Shoulder, stories of people who believe that the Devil is talking in their ear, and of people who deny that, despite massive evidence to the contrary.
今天的节目《魔鬼在我肩上》讲述了那些相信魔鬼在耳边说话的人们的故事，以及那些否认这一点的人们的故事，尽管有大量相反的证据。
We have arrived at Act Three of our program, Act Three, Devil in Angel's Clothing, Or Is It the Other Way Around?
我们已经到了节目的第三幕，第三幕，披着天使外衣的魔鬼，还是相反？
This is the story of what it means to have a conscience.
这是一个关于拥有良心意味着什么的故事。
A man kills another man on the street and then tries to pretend that it never happened for 20 years.
一名男子在街上杀死了另一名男子，然后试图假装这件事 20 年来从未发生过。
And it's a story about what that does to him.
这是一个关于这对他造成的影响的故事。
Sarah Koenig reports from Baltimore.
莎拉·科尼格从巴尔的摩报道。
Sterling Randolph Willis told me his story over the phone from prison.
斯特林·兰道夫·威利斯在监狱里通过电话向我讲述了他的故事。
As you'll hear, the phone line is terrible, but it was the only way to get him on tape.
正如您所听到的，电话线很糟糕，但这是让他录音的唯一方法。
The prison doesn't allow recording equipment inside the facility.
监狱不允许在设施内使用录音设备。
When he was 17 years old, Randy lived with his mother and did construction work.
17 岁时，兰迪和母亲住在一起，从事建筑工作。
He'd been kicked out of school for fighting.
他因打架而被学校开除。
He was tall and quiet.
他很高，很安静。
And like a lot of kids from his neighborhood, he carried a serious knife.
和他邻居的许多孩子一样，他带着一把很厉害的刀。
His girlfriend, who was 16, lived miles across town, and Randy liked to walk to her house, rather than take the bus or a cab.
他 16 岁的女朋友住在城外数英里之外，兰迪喜欢步行去她家，而不是乘坐公共汽车或出租车。
It gave him time to be alone, he says, and to think about things.
他说，这让他有时间独处并思考事情。
He was on his way there on Christmas night in 1982.
1982 年圣诞节晚上，他正在前往那里的路上。
He cut through a back way in the dark and stopped at some bushes to pee.
他在黑暗中抄近路，在灌木丛前停下来撒尿。
I saw this guy coming towards me.
我看到这个人朝我走来。
And I was like, "What do you want?" And he was mumbling something.
我当时想，“你想要什么？”他正在咕哝着什么。
I didn't know what he was saying.
我不知道他在说什么。
And I saw him rubbing on the front of his pants.
我看到他在摩擦裤子的前面。
And I tell him, "Stop, back away from me." And he's still coming towards me.
我告诉他，“停下来，离我远点。”而他仍然向我走来。
And he's mumbling and giggling.
他一边自言自语，一边咯咯地笑。
He's looking like, "Aha, I got one." That scared me a bit.
他看起来就像是，“啊哈，我有一个。”这让我有点害怕。
And when he came close to me again, I hit him.
当他再次靠近我时，我打了他。
And when I hit him, he fell back.
当我打他的时候，他向后倒去。
That's when I jumped on him.
就在那时我跳到了他身上。
And that's when I stabbed him.
就在那时我刺伤了他。
He didn't know whether the guy was dead or alive.
他不知道这家伙是死是活。
He just took off running to his girlfriend's house.
他就跑到他女朋友家去了。
I went in the back doorway, because I knew that my girlfriend would be in the kitchen waiting for me to get there.
我从后门进去，因为我知道我女朋友会在厨房里等我。
Because she really wasn't a party person, either.
因为她也确实不是一个喜欢聚会的人。
I had a little blood on me.
我身上有一点血。
I washed it off.
我把它洗掉了。
And I was really shooken up.
我真的很震惊。
It took about a half an hour before I could tell her what happened.
大约过了半个小时，我才告诉她发生了什么事。
And she thought I was joking around at first.
她一开始以为我在开玩笑。
Randy had killed Arnette Hubbard, a 44-year-old man who had no fixed address.
兰迪杀死了阿内特·哈伯德 (Arnette Hubbard)，他是一名 44 岁的男子，没有固定地址。
Police had a hard time notifying his relatives.
警方很难通知他的亲属。
His wallet revealed to detectives that he was a military veteran.
他的钱包向侦探透露他是一名退伍军人。
Did the detectives ever question you, or question anyone you had told?
侦探们有没有询问过你，或者询问过你告诉过的任何人吗？
They didn't question me, because I didn't live around there.
他们没有询问我，因为我不住在那里。
I didn't go back around there for a little while.
我有一段时间没有回去那里。
I was really, really scared.
我真的非常非常害怕。
You could see it in my face that I was pretty much terrified.
你可以从我的脸上看出我非常害怕。
I didn't want the police looking at me like "Oh, look at him, he [UNINTELLIGIBLE] guilty." Because a couple of questions, and I would have been like putty in their hands.
我不想让警察看着我，就像“哦，看看他，他[无法理解]有罪。”因为有几个问题，我就会像他们手中的油灰一样。
Eventually, Hubbard's murder fell into the department's cold case files.
最终，哈伯德的谋杀案进入了该部门的悬案档案。
In that sense, Randy had gotten away with it.
从这个意义上说，兰迪已经逃脱了惩罚。
But in his mind, he carried the stabbing with him.
但在他的脑海里，他却带着那一刀。
Different times throughout my life, over the years, I've had nightmares about it.
多年来，在我一生中的不同时期，我都做过关于它的噩梦。
One time, he pulled me in the [UNINTELLIGIBLE] in my dream.
有一次，他把我拉进梦里的[无法辨认]。
And he was shaking me, laughing real hard.
他摇晃着我，笑得很厉害。
And I woke up screaming out of my sleep.
我从睡梦中尖叫着醒来。
And sometimes, I would see it happen all over again, like on the wall, just like a film projector, like a dream, only wide awake.
有时，我会看到它再次发生，就像在墙上，就像电影放映机，就像一场梦，只是完全清醒。
Randy felt guilty about what happened, and says that if he had to do it over again, he wouldn't have killed Arnette Hubbard.
兰迪对所发生的事情感到内疚，并说如果他必须重来一次，他就不会杀死阿内特·哈伯德。
But he didn't feel that guilty.
但他并没有感到那么内疚。
He was molested as a child, he says, and he thinks the guy he killed was a pervert waiting for a victim.
他说，他小时候曾被猥亵，他认为他杀的人是一个等待受害者的变态。
What if someone else had taken that shortcut, a girl who couldn't protect herself, say?
如果其他人走了这条捷径，比如一个无法保护自己的女孩，该怎么办？
After the stabbing, Randy tried to get on with his life.
刺伤事件发生后，兰迪试图继续自己的生活。
He and his girlfriend got married.
他和他的女朋友结婚了。
He worked at different jobs, and they started having children.
他从事不同的工作，他们开始生孩子。
But he was still tormented by that night.
但那一夜，他依然心有余悸。
He would break out crying sometimes.
有时他会突然哭起来。
He was terrified people would find out what he had done.
他害怕人们会发现他所做的事情。
The scene would play over and over in his mind.
这个场景在他的脑海里一遍又一遍地浮现。
He went to psychiatrists, who gave him medication, but he never confessed the source of his anxiety.
他去看了精神科医生，精神科医生给了他药物，但他从未承认自己焦虑的根源。
Pretty soon, he started taking harder drugs, mostly heroin.
很快，他开始吸食更烈的毒品，其中大部分是海洛因。
When I told my wife about it, she was disappointed in me.
当我把这件事告诉妻子时，她对我很失望。
I told her that I was getting high.
我告诉她我越来越兴奋了。
I needed her help to stop.
我需要她的帮助才能停下来。
I just couldn't figure out at that point what move to make in my life.
那时我只是不知道该在我的生活中采取什么行动。
I didn't want to be high.
我不想太高。
I didn't want the medication.
我不想吃药。
I wanted the dreams to stop, the visions I was having.
我希望那些梦想、那些我所拥有的幻象停止。
I wanted that all to just go away.
我希望这一切都消失。
While he was going through all this, his wife was changing.
当他经历这一切的时候，他的妻子也在发生变化。
She had found the church and become passionate about it.
她找到了教堂并对其产生了热情。
Randy wasn't interested.
兰迪不感兴趣。
I'd usually just basically turn on The Three Stooges on Sunday and sit back and, you know, laughing at the TV.
我通常会在周日打开《三个臭皮匠》，然后坐下来，你知道，对着电视大笑。
And by that time, my wife was already in church.
那时，我的妻子已经在教堂里了。
And she'd just run around the house, "Hallelujah, hallelujah."
她就在房子里跑来跑去，“哈利路亚，哈利路亚。”
I thought, to me, this is funny, right?
我想，对我来说，这很有趣，对吧？
Because I'd never seen this side of her.
因为我从来没有见过她的这一面。
I thought it was hilarious.
我觉得这很搞笑。
I didn't take it seriously until we had a little sit-down about it one day.
我并没有认真对待这件事，直到有一天我们坐下来讨论这件事。
And I knew she was serious, then, because she was welling up with tears.
我知道她是认真的，因为她泪流满面。
And I really felt bad.
我真的感觉很糟糕。
So that made me want to start going, see what this Jesus thing was all about.
所以这让我想开始去看看耶稣的事到底是怎么回事。
And the first time I went, I basically didn't stay for the whole service, because it made me feel kind of strange.
而且我第一次去的时候基本上全程服务都没有留下来，因为这让我感觉有点奇怪。
I wasn't used to being in contact with my emotions like that.
我不习惯这样接触自己的情绪。
And I'm sitting, and I'm feeling my eyes well up with tears, and my heart is bumping kind of fast.
我坐着，感觉眼睛里充满了泪水，我的心跳得有点快。
I feel butterflies in my stomach.
我感觉心里有蝴蝶。
And this is not a feeling that I like.
而这不是我喜欢的感觉。
So I left.
所以我离开了。
I waited outside.
我在外面等着。
I didn't tell her the truth about how I felt.
我没有告诉她我的真实感受。
The truth was, I just couldn't handle it.
事实是，我就是无法应对。
I just couldn't sit there through the whole thing.
我就是不能坐在那里完成整个事情。
I felt like everything the preacher was saying was stabbing me right in the heart.
我觉得牧师所说的一切都在刺痛我的心。
It was like he was directing it right to me.
就好像他直接把它指向我一样。
Do you remember what he was saying?
你还记得他说的话吗？
Like, what were the things that he was saying that you felt were directed at you?
比如，你觉得他说的哪些话是针对你的？
You know, sin and you're going to hell.
你知道，犯罪你就会下地狱。
And once you come to the Lord, you bring all your kids, and start your life on the path of righteousness.
一旦你来到主面前，你就带着你所有的孩子，开始你的正义之路。
I'm like, "What, did somebody tell him about me or something?" Because every time I turn around, he's saying the stuff, and he's looking right at me.
我想，“什么，有人告诉他关于我的事吗？”因为每次我转身时，他都会说这些话，而且他会直视着我。
And I'm like, maybe somebody has been talking about me or something.
我想，也许有人在谈论我或其他什么。
Randy was so bothered by what happened that on his third trip to church, he did something sort of crazy.
兰迪对所发生的事情感到非常困扰，以至于在他第三次去教堂时，他做了一些疯狂的事情。
He actually decided to rob the place during the service.
他实际上决定在仪式期间抢劫这个地方。
He didn't so much want the money, he said.
他说，他不太想要钱。
He just wanted to control the people who were making him feel so strangely.
他只是想控制那些让他感觉如此奇怪的人。
He tucked a gun in the waistband of his pants and waited for the moment he could grab the collection plate.
他把枪插在裤腰带里，等待着拿到收集盘的那一刻。
But a deacon figured out Randy's plan and confronted him.
但一名执事发现了兰迪的计划并与他对质。
He leaned over my head while he was praying.
当他祈祷时，他俯身在我的头上。
And he was like, "Just give it to me.
他说：“把它给我吧。
Give me the gun, son.
把枪给我，儿子。
You're not going to hurt anybody, and nobody knows what you want to do.
你不会伤害任何人，也没有人知道你想做什么。
So I had a warm feeling of emotions flushing over me.
所以我有一种温暖的感觉涌上心头。
And all of a sudden, I started crying and whatnot.
突然间，我开始哭什么的。
My nose is running.
我的鼻子在流鼻涕。
I'm falling all out on the floor.
我摔倒在地板上。
When I came to, I didn't have the gun on me anymore.
当我醒来时，我身上已经没有枪了。
My wife is crying and clapping and whatnot.
我的妻子在哭泣、鼓掌等等。
My kids are looking at me like, "What's the matter with Dad?" That's what really started my walk in the church.
我的孩子们看着我，好像在问：“爸爸怎么了？”这就是我真正开始在教堂行走的原因。
He started attending regularly.
他开始定期参加。
He opened up services by leading songs, assisted the ministers, and eventually became president of the church's Brotherhood Association.
他通过主唱歌曲开启礼拜仪式，协助牧师，并最终成为教会兄弟会的主席。
The church even made him lose his craving for drugs, he says.
他说，教会甚至让他失去了对毒品的渴望。
He quit cold, and stayed sober for about eight years.
他戒掉了感冒，并保持清醒大约八年。
He describes that time as good and clean, among the best years of his life.
他形容那段时光美好而干净，是他一生中最美好的时光。
He started his own landscaping business called Sterling Service.
他创办了自己的景观美化公司，名为 Sterling Service。
His brother-in-law was one of the church leaders, and they became close.
他的妹夫是教会领袖之一，他们关系很亲密。
As Randy began to worry about his own salvation, he actually told him and a church deacon about murdering Arnette Hubbard.
当兰迪开始担心自己的救赎时，他实际上告诉了他和一名教堂执事谋杀阿内特·哈伯德的事情。
They said he'd be forgiven, which relieved him.
他们说他会被原谅，这让他松了口气。
The visions and nightmares eased, and he appeared to be conquering his past.
幻象和噩梦都减轻了，他似乎正在征服自己的过去。
But toward the end of that period, his father died.
但在那段时期即将结束时，他的父亲去世了。
Then he lost a lot of his landscaping equipment in a fire.
然后他在一场火灾中损失了很多园林绿化设备。
Winter came, and his clients fell away.
冬天来了，他的客户纷纷离开。
He needed money, so he started selling drugs, and then taking them.
他需要钱，所以他开始贩卖毒品，然后吸食毒品。
Pretty soon, he was addicted to heroin again.
很快，他又对海洛因上瘾了。
I was living a double life, you might say.
你可能会说，我过着双重生活。
On one hand, I was going to church, being an assistant to the pastor and security and whatnot.
一方面，我要去教堂，担任牧师助理和保安等等。
And on the other hand, I was on the street selling cocaine and heroin.
另一方面，我在街上贩卖可卡因和海洛因。
And for a while, it worked out, until my wife drove past me one day on the corner.
有一段时间，这一切都成功了，直到有一天我的妻子在街角开车经过我。
And it was a [UNINTELLIGIBLE PHRASE] me.
这是[难以理解的短语]我。
And she saw me, actually.
事实上，她看到了我。
And I didn't see her, but she saw me.
我没有看到她，但她看到了我。
The kids saw me.
孩子们看到了我。
My in-laws saw me.
我的姻亲看到了我。
Oh they were in the van.
哦，他们在货车里。
Sarah Koenig Like, the church van.
莎拉·科尼格（Sarah Koenig） 就像教堂的货车。
Yeah.
是的。
And my brother-in-law was driving, and he had to drive past.
而且姐夫开车，他也得开车过去。
And they all saw me.
他们都看到了我。
And they saw me with a crowd of people in front of me.
他们看到我前面有一群人。
And I'm telling them, shut up and get in line and be quiet.
我告诉他们，闭嘴，排队，保持安静。
I got a bunch of money in one hand, and I got the bag of drugs in the other hand.
我一手拿了一大笔钱，一手拿了一袋毒品。
They drove by and saw me stand there, and I never knew it.
他们开车经过，看到我站在那里，而我却毫不知情。
His wife threatened to leave him if he didn't clean himself up.
他的妻子威胁说，如果他不收拾干净自己，就要离开他。
I'm reading my morning paper, and I'm seeing circles drawn around houses and whatnot.
我正在读晨报，看到房子周围画着圆圈等等。
Yeah.
是的。
But I didn't believe her, being together almost 20 years.
但我不相信她，在一起快20年了。
And basically, I came in the house one day.
基本上，有一天我进了房子。
And everything was gone, except my stuff.
然后一切都消失了，除了我的东西。
My stuff was not packed up.
我的东西还没收拾好。
So I go to go around my sister-in-laws, my brother-in-laws, to see if they've seen her, because they lived right around the corner.
所以我就去我的嫂子、姐夫周围转转，看看他们是否见过她，因为他们就住在拐角处。
And my wife was there with a big U-Haul truck in front of the house.
我的妻子在屋前开着一辆大型 U-Haul 卡车。
And I was like, you could have pushed me over with a spoon, and I'd have fell all out in the street.
我当时想，你可能用勺子把我推倒，我就会摔倒在街上。
That's how weak in the knees I felt.
这就是我感到膝盖多么无力的感觉。
Yeah, I was.
是的，我是。
And I had a crowd of people waiting for me, actually.
事实上，有一大群人在等我。
Yeah.
是的。
And a guy came running up the street, he was like, man, [UNINTELLIGIBLE PHRASE].
一个人跑到街上，他就像，伙计，[难以理解的短语]。
You ain't going to somebody else.
你不会去找别人。
I asked my wife, "Won't you let him sit here with you for a minute?
我问我的妻子：“你不让他和你一起坐一会儿吗？
I'll be right back.
我马上回来。
I've got to see about something."
我有事要去看看。”
And she was like, "Go." And she knew where I was going at that point.
她说：“走吧。”她知道我当时要去哪里。
She was like, "Go.
她说：“走吧。
It doesn't matter.
没关系。
Go ahead."
继续吧。”
I was like, "now, look, hold this money for me." That was my plan, to get her to hold the money so she couldn't leave.
我当时想，“现在，看，帮我拿着这笔钱。”这就是我的计划，让她拿着钱，这样她就不能离开。
And she was like, "I don't want your money.
她说：“我不要你的钱。
I don't want anything from you." She was like, "I just want a clean, sober husband." She was like, "You'll be all right.
我不想从你这里得到任何东西。”她说，“我只想要一个干净、清醒的丈夫。”她说：“你会没事的。
Just do anything, you'll be all right."
只要做任何事，你就会没事的。”
He ran off to his customers.
他跑向他的顾客。
And when he came back, the U-Haul truck was gone.
当他回来时，U-Haul 卡车已经不见了。
He asked his brother-in-law if she went to the store or something.
他问姐夫她去商店了吗？
He said, no. She had gone to South Carolina.
他说，不。她去了南卡罗来纳州。
I was crying, and falling [UNINTELLIGIBLE].
我哭了，摔倒了[无法辨认]。
Because I really loved my wife.
因为我真的很爱我的妻子。
And that's really hard.
这真的很难。
That really messed me up a lot, realizing that she was really going.
意识到她真的要走了，这真的让我很困惑。
That took out all the reasons that I had for doing what I was doing.
这消除了我做我正在做的事情的所有理由。
That took it away.
那把它拿走了。
I didn't want to sell drugs anymore.
我不想再卖毒品了。
I didn't want to get high anymore.
我不想再兴奋了。
And at that time, things just fell apart.
那时，事情就分崩离析了。
Everything just fell apart.
一切都崩溃了。
Yeah.
是的。
Sarah Koenig Just describe what happened that day.
莎拉·科尼格（Sarah Koenig） 请描述一下那天发生的事情。
Well, that's what I don't remember, exactly.
嗯，具体是这样的，我记不太清楚了。
I remember being bombed out of my skull.
我记得我的头骨被炸了。
I was looking at the court files, reviewing your court file.
我正在查看法庭文件，审查你的法庭文件。
And I found the statement of probable cause from the police.
我找到了警方关于可能原因的陈述。
And I just want to read it to you to see if it sounds familiar.
我只是想读给你们听，看看听起来是否熟悉。
"On 14, June 2000, at 1:40 AM, this officer was in the 4900 block of Cordelia Avenue.
“2000 年 6 月 14 日凌晨 1 点 40 分，这名警官在科迪莉亚大道 4900 号街区。
We were inside our vehicle.
我们在车内。
The defendant approached this officer and inquired if he may talk to this officer.
被告走近该警官并询问他是否可以与该警官交谈。
This officer responded in the affirmative.
这位官员的回答是肯定的。
At this time, the defendant made a voluntary, uncoerced statement that he would like to turn himself in for possessing the illegal narcotic, cocaine.
此时，被告自愿、非受胁迫地表示，他愿意因持有非法麻醉品可卡因而自首。
The defendant further stated that he had this substance in his possession in the right breast pocket of his jacket.
被告进一步表示，他在夹克右胸口袋中拥有这种物质。
The defendant then removed from his right breast jacket pocket 12 blue Ziploc baggies containing white rock substance.
随后，被告从右胸夹克口袋中取出 12 个装有白色岩石物质的蓝色密封袋。
The defendant surrendered these items to this officer.
被告将这些物品交给了该官员。
At this time, the defendant was placed under arrest.
此时，被告人已被逮捕。
The defendant additionally began to state that he had also committed other serious offenses that he wished to confess."
被告还开始声称他还犯有其他他愿意承认的严重罪行。”
On June 14, 2000, handcuffed to a steel table in an interrogation room, and throwing up into a garbage pail as the heroin left his system, Randy confessed to the murder of Arnette Hubbard.
2000 年 6 月 14 日，兰迪被铐在审讯室的一张钢桌上，当海洛因离开体内时，兰迪吐进了垃圾桶，他承认谋杀了阿内特·哈伯德。
A detective taking notes during the conversation wrote, "Has been selling coke and dope, selling for anyone he could, tired of game.
一名侦探在谈话中做笔记，写道：“一直在卖可乐和毒品，卖给任何他能卖的人，厌倦了游戏。
Feels guilty about doing murder."
对杀人感到内疚。”
Randy described the killing down to the smallest detail, the checkered shirt Hubbard had been wearing, the knife that was six or seven inches long.
兰迪详细描述了这场杀戮，哈伯德穿的格子衬衫，六七英寸长的刀。
He does not remember telling them a word of this.
他不记得对他们说过这件事。
Not long after, in district court, he waited for his case to come up.
不久之后，他在地方法院等待案件审理。
They call your number and your name to stand up for a particular case.
他们会拨打您的电话号码和您的名字来支持特定案件。
And they called my name.
他们叫了我的名字。
And I stood up.
我站了起来。
When they said first-degree murder, well, I sat back down.
当他们说一级谋杀时，好吧，我又坐了下来。
Because I was like, "Oh, no, no, that's not my charge." They said, "Yeah, stand up.
因为我当时想，“哦，不，不，这不是我的责任。”他们说：“是的，站起来。
It is your charge." I'm like, "No, no. I know I may be a bad drug dealer, but I'm not a murderer or something.
这是你的责任。”我说，“不，不。我知道我可能是个坏毒贩，但我不是杀人犯什么的。
What are they talking about?"
他们在说什么？”
At what moment did you realize you had been charged with this murder that you'd committed 20 years before?
您什么时候意识到自己被指控犯有 20 年前犯下的谋杀罪？
You knew it was that, you knew it was Arnette Hubbard.
你知道就是那个，你知道那是阿内特·哈伯德。
They said his name, and I still didn't know who it was, because I had never known his name.
他们说出了他的名字，但我仍然不知道那人是谁，因为我从来不知道他的名字。
Randy initially fought the charges, but ended up pleading guilty to second-degree murder.
兰迪最初对指控提出抗辩，但最终承认犯有二级谋杀罪。
Baltimore Circuit Judge William D.
巴尔的摩巡回法官 William D.
Quarles sentenced him to 12 years in prison.
夸尔斯判处他 12 年监禁。
At the hearing, he said to Randy, "I guess you reassure me, in a sense, of my belief in human nature, because you are obviously someone who developed a sense of conscience.
在听证会上，他对兰迪说：“从某种意义上说，我想你让我对人性的信念感到安心，因为你显然是一个有良知的人。
Because you had actually gotten away with it." But if you come clean, never intending to come clean, and not remembering afterwards you've come clean, does that really count as an act of conscience?
因为你实际上已经逃脱了惩罚。”但如果你坦白了，从来没有打算坦白，事后也不记得你坦白了，这真的算良心行为吗？
You must think about your own subconscious, the mystery of what made you open your mouth.
你必须思考你自己的潜意识，是什么让你张开嘴的奥秘。
Yeah, all the time.
是的，一直如此。
Sarah Koenig And have you come to any conclusion?
Sarah Koenig 你得出什么结论了吗？
No. That's not something that I've really come to grips with.
不，这不是我真正能解决的问题。
I just don't know how to feel, really.
我只是不知道感觉如何，真的。
It isn't like, "Oh, yeah, confession is good and clean for the soul." No, it feels like, "What a dummy.
它不像，“哦，是的，忏悔对灵魂来说是好的和干净的。”不，感觉就像是，“真是个假人。
I should have kept my mouth closed." Don't want to mess up the next 20 years of my life.
我应该闭嘴的。”不想把我接下来的20年生活搞得一团糟。
So you regret telling them.
所以你后悔告诉他们了。
Sterling Randolph Willis Yeah, of course.
斯特林·兰道夫·威利斯 是的，当然。
It wasn't a relief to tell police, he says.
他说，告诉警察并不能让人松一口气。
He didn't feel like he'd gotten something off his chest.
他不觉得自己有什么话从胸口吐出来。
That feeling came when he told the people who meant something to him, his wife, the members of his church.
当他告诉那些对他、他的妻子、他的教会成员有意义的人时，这种感觉就出现了。
That feeling came when he squared it with God.
当他与上帝摆平时，这种感觉就出现了。
But somehow the decision to tell police about that night wasn't exactly his.
但不知何故，将那天晚上的事告诉警方的决定并不完全是他的。
With heroin as its unwitting ally, Randy's conscience, the angel on his shoulder he remembers from childhood cartoons, commandeered the interview, flooring everyone involved.
海洛因在不知不觉中成为了盟友，兰迪的良心，他记忆中童年动画片中肩上的天使，占据了采访的主导地位，让所有参与其中的人都感到震惊。
In prison, he's still hearing that voice, and another voice, too.
在监狱里，他仍然听到那个声音，还有另一个声音。
It's kind of hard to explain.
这有点难以解释。
I used to sit back and I would hear voices saying-- well, on one hand, it's like, "How do you feel now, dumbass?
我过去常常坐下来，听到有人说——嗯，一方面，就像是，“你现在感觉怎么样，笨蛋？
And look what you got yourself into.
看看你自己陷入了什么境地。
Go to trial.
去受审。
Fight it.
战斗吧。
You can beat this."
你可以打败这个。”
And then my other shoulder's like, "Don't worry.
然后我的另一个肩膀就像是，“别担心。
The Lord is going to be [UNINTELLIGIBLE] sooner than you think.
主将[难以理解]比你想象的更早到来。
You did the right thing.
你做对了。
You can leave here with a clean slate and start your life over."
你可以干净地离开这里，重新开始你的生活。”
Which side is winning?
哪一方获胜？
Sterling Randolph Willis Well, currently, clean slate side.
斯特林·兰道夫·威利斯 好吧，目前，一切都清清楚楚。
You know, "You can leave here with a clean slate now.
你知道，“你现在可以干净地离开这里了。
And things'll get better." And in a way, I believe it.
事情会变得更好。”在某种程度上，我相信这一点。
But in a way, I don't.
但在某种程度上，我不这么认为。
There's another way to see this whole story, that it wasn't his conscience that made him confess to the police.
还有另一种方式来看待整个故事，那就是，并不是他的良心促使他向警方认罪。
Randy's sisters see it more as a suicidal act.
兰迪的姐妹们更多地将其视为自杀行为。
His wife had left him.
他的妻子离开了他。
He was back on drugs.
他又开始吸毒了。
He had sunk so low that some part of him, and not the angel part, wanted to do something self-destructive.
他已经堕落得如此之低，以至于他的某些部分，而不是天使的部分，想做一些自我毁灭的事情。
So he told the police.
于是他告诉了警察。
What's odd is that Randy himself hasn't figured out whether he's a good person who needed to clear his conscience once and for all, or just a drug addict who gave up and ratted himself out.
奇怪的是，兰迪自己也没有弄清楚自己到底是一个需要一劳永逸地澄清自己良心的好人，还是一个自暴自弃的吸毒者。
After thinking about it every day for two years in prison, Randy still can't decide.
在监狱里的两年里，兰迪每天都在思考这个问题，但他仍然无法做出决定。
Sarah Koenig.
莎拉·科尼格.
Credits Ira Glass Production help today from Flawn Williams and the charming Jorge Just and Aaron Scott.
今天，Flawn Williams 以及迷人的 Jorge Just 和 Aaron Scott 为 Ira Glass Production 提供了帮助。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
WBEZ management oversight for our program by our boss, Mr. Torey Malatia.
我们的老板 Torey Malatia 先生对我们的项目进行 WBEZ 管理监督。
He's feeling so good ever since he came back from the hairstylist at the mall.
自从他从商场的发型师那里回来后，他感觉很好。
Here's why.
原因如下。
I went and got rid of my Amish haircut, went and got rid of my Amish clothes.
我去脱掉了我的阿米什发型，脱掉了我的阿米什衣服。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
PRI, Public Radio International.
PRI，国际公共广播电台。
international
国际
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。