21: Factions - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #21 | November 15, 2002 21: Factions Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 21 集 | 2002 年 11 月 15 日 21：派系 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Act One: Religious Faction Ira Glass It is an old, old story.
第一幕：宗教派别艾拉·格拉斯 这是一个非常非常古老的故事。
A group of friends gets together, decides to start a business, put on a show, or begin their own church, or take a political stand, together, as a group.
一群朋友聚在一起，决定作为一个团体一起创业、举办演出、建立自己的教堂或采取政治立场。
Hearts are full.
心都满了。
Everyone's close.
每个人都很亲近。
But over time, there's some small thing that comes up, some dispute.
但随着时间的推移，会出现一些小事情，一些争议。
And the dispute starts small and takes on more importance, and more until it becomes the most important thing that any of them think about.
争论从小事开始，逐渐变得越来越重要，直到成为他们中任何一个人考虑的最重要的事情。
Until it becomes the main thing that they all think about.
直到它成为他们所有人考虑的主要事情。
And until it destroys the group.
直到它摧毁了这个团体。
Well, it is This American Life from WBEZ Chicago.
嗯，这是芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
The premise of our program is that each week we document everyday stories of these United States, using all the tools of radio storytelling-- documentaries, monologues, overheard conversations, found tapes, occasional radio dramas, anything we can think of.
我们节目的前提是，每周我们都会使用广播讲故事的所有工具来记录这些美国的日常故事——纪录片、独白、无意中听到的对话、找到的磁带、偶尔的广播剧，以及我们能想到的任何东西。
And today we bring you three stories of friends coming together to do some kind of project or work together, friends who end up as enemies.
今天，我们为您带来三个故事，讲述的是朋友们聚在一起做某种项目或一起工作，但朋友最终却成为敌人的故事。
Act One is about a religious group, Act Two about a political group, and Act Three about a racial group.
第一幕关于宗教团体，第二幕关于政治团体，第三幕关于种族团体。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Our first story today takes place in Utah, home of the Mormon church, which, out there, they sometimes called the LDS church.
我们今天的第一个故事发生在犹他州，那里是摩门教教会的所在地，在那里，人们有时将其称为摩门教徒教会。
LDS for Latter Day Saints.
LDS 为后期圣徒。
Joseph Smith and Brigham Young received visions when they founded the church and established it there.
约瑟·史密斯和杨百翰在建立教会并在那里建立时获得了异象。
And to this day, it is not uncommon for Mormons to see visions and to set up their own variations on the main LDS church.
直到今天，摩门教徒看到异象并在摩门教主要教会的基础上建立自己的变体并不罕见。
Scott Carrier has the story of one such splinter church, how friends began it and how the friends over time, split apart.
斯科特·卡里尔（Scott Carrier）讲述了一个这样的分裂教会的故事，讲述了朋友们如何开始这个教会，以及随着时间的推移，朋友们如何分裂。
This is a story about a group of radical Mormon polygamists who live in central Utah in a little town called Manti.
这是一个关于一群激进的摩门教一夫多妻主义者的故事，他们住在犹他州中部一个叫曼蒂的小镇上。
I call them radical because they've all been excommunicated by the church authorities, not for practicing polygamy, not because they were sinners.
我称他们为激进分子，因为他们都被教会当局逐出教会，不是因为实行一夫多妻制，也不是因为他们是罪人。
They were excommunicated because they said over and over again that the church authorities were working for Satan.
他们被逐出教会是因为他们一遍又一遍地说教会当局是为撒但工作。
I'll begin this story by introducing Jim Harmston, a middle-aged man of common qualities, a man who used to sell real estate up in Davis County.
我将首先介绍吉姆·哈姆斯顿（Jim Harmston），一个具有共同品质的中年男子，曾经在戴维斯县出售房地产。
He was a Mormon, a good Mormon, a member of the high council.
他是一个摩门教徒，一个好的摩门教徒，高级委员会的成员。
He had a house on the hill and a new Continental every six months.
他在山上有一栋房子，每六个月就有一辆新大陆汽车。
But then, in 1990, he started to believe that the church had become wicked in the eyes of the Lord, and he started praying in the true order, and seeing angels, and receiving divine messages from across the veil who told him first that he should quit his job and move with his family to Manti, which he did.
但后来，在 1990 年，他开始相信教会在主眼中变得邪恶，他开始按照真正的顺序祈祷，看到天使，并从幔子另一边接收神圣的信息，告诉他首先应该辞掉工作，与家人一起搬到曼蒂，他照做了。
Next, to become a polygamist, which he did.
接下来，成为一夫多妻制，他做到了。
And then, to become the prophet and president of his own new church, the True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days, which he also did.
然后，成为他自己的新教会——耶稣基督真实而活着的末世圣徒教会的先知和会长，他也做到了。
He did, in effect, have very nearly the same experience that Joseph Smith had 160 years before.
事实上，他确实拥有与 160 年前约瑟夫·史密斯几乎相同的经历。
I had an experience where four dispensation heads came across the veil and laid their hands on my head-- Enoch, Noah, Abraham, and Moses-- restoring again the apostleship.
我有一次经历，四个时代的领袖穿过幔子，按手在我的头上——以诺、挪亚、亚伯拉罕和摩西——再次恢复使徒的职分。
And this happened on a Sunday.
这发生在周日。
They were magnificent resurrected beings clothed in white garment, white clothing, to their robes hung to their ankles.
他们是华丽的复活者，穿着白衣，白衣，长袍垂到脚踝。
They had white hair and beards.
他们有着白色的头发和胡须。
They were magnificent, and I was overwhelmed with the Holy Ghost.
它们非常宏伟，我被圣灵感动了。
And it's been interesting to observe.
观察起来很有趣。
People give up their careers and their professions, their businesses, and begin to gather here in Manti.
人们放弃他们的事业、他们的职业、他们的生意，开始聚集在曼蒂这里。
On Sunday afternoon, Harmston's church has a testimonial meeting.
周日下午，哈姆斯顿的教堂举行见证会。
150 men, women, and children on folding chairs in a newly constructed meeting hall.
新建的会议厅内，折叠椅上坐着 150 名男性、女性和儿童。
Testimony meeting is a Mormon tradition where members stand and bear their testimony in the truth and validity of the church and its doctrines.
见证会议是摩门教的传统，成员们站起来为教会及其教义的真实性和有效性作见证。
But many of the people here have recently been excommunicated, and so their testimony is that the Mormon church has become corrupt.
但这里的许多人最近都被逐出了教会，所以他们的见证是摩门教已经腐败了。
Indeed, that this congregation now is the only true and living church on the planet.
事实上，这个教会现在是地球上唯一真实而活着的教会。
You know, I've been searching for a witness of this work and of this church.
你知道，我一直在寻找这项工作和这座教堂的见证人。
And just tonight I got my witness.
就在今晚我得到了证人。
And it's burning within my soul at how important this work is and how true it is.
我的灵魂深处燃烧着这项工作的重要性和真实性。
I know it is.
我知道是这样。
And it's hard to believe that just a year ago I was in high school.
很难相信就在一年前我还在上高中。
I was in plays.
我在演戏。
I was a typical teenager.
我是一个典型的青少年。
And now I'm in a plural marriage and struggling.
现在我处于多重婚姻中并且挣扎着。
I'm not going to lie to you.
我不会对你撒谎。
Welcome to the club.
欢迎来到俱乐部。
Woman But I know without a shadow of doubt that this is the Lord's work, that I have finally found it.
女人 但我毫无疑问地知道这是主的工作，我终于找到了它。
And I love you guys, and I'm thankful for your prayers and for all that you have to offer me.
我爱你们，感谢你们的祈祷以及你们为我提供的一切。
I say this in the name of Jesus Christ.
我奉耶稣基督的名这么说。
Amen.
阿门。
Members of Harmston's church practice the principle of plural marriage because they believe polygamy was one of the fundamental teachings of Joseph Smith.
哈姆斯顿教会的成员奉行一夫多妻制原则，因为他们相信一夫多妻制是约瑟夫·史密斯的基本教义之一。
This is why polygamists often refer to themselves as fundamentalists.
这就是为什么一夫多妻主义者经常称自己为原教旨主义者。
They also believe in practicing the law of consecration, wherein all goods and services are held in common, a communism, and that there will be a gathering of God's chosen people into a nation, a Zion nation.
他们还相信实行奉献法，其中所有的物品和服务都是共同的，即共产主义，并且上帝的选民将聚集成一个国家，一个锡安国家。
This gathering is to be in a safe spot, an area protected during the Millennium and the Armageddon.
这次聚会将在一个安全的地方，一个在千禧年和世界末日期间受保护的区域。
It's all there in the Book of Revelations, and it's all happening now.
这一切都在《启示录》中，而这一切现在正在发生。
Hundreds, some say thousands, of fundamentalists from around the West have moved to Manti over the past three years, all believing that this is the place for the gathering.
过去三年里，来自西方世界的数百名甚至数千名原教旨主义者搬到了曼蒂，他们都相信这里是聚会的地方。
Steve McKinley has lived in Manti for 15 years.
史蒂夫·麦金利 (Steve McKinley) 在曼蒂 (Manti) 生活了 15 年。
This is a very special place.
这是一个非常特别的地方。
There have been very sacred things happen here.
这里曾经发生过非常神圣的事情。
And I moved here to Manti 15 years ago because the Lord told us to move here.
15 年前我搬到了曼蒂，因为主告诉我们要搬到这里。
I've seen a lot of people come and go from this valley for spiritual reasons that are totally different.
我见过很多人出于完全不同的精神原因从这个山谷来来去去。
They didn't even know who Jim Harmston is.
他们甚至不知道吉姆·哈姆斯顿是谁。
And they come, and they go.
他们来了，又走了。
Steve McKinley and Jim Harmston used to be friends, but now they're more like enemies.
史蒂夫·麦金利和吉姆·哈姆斯顿曾经是朋友，但现在他们更像是敌人。
They met when Harmston moved to Manti in 1990, and so McKinley has seen the development of Harmston's church from its beginning.
他们是在 1990 年哈姆斯顿搬到曼蒂时认识的，因此麦金利从一开始就见证了哈姆斯顿教堂的发展。
It began as nothing more than a group of men from the Manti area who came together once a week and sat in a circle in an upstairs bedroom.
一开始只不过是一群来自曼蒂地区的男人每周聚集一次，在楼上的卧室里围成一圈。
There were 17 men who came together because they were concerned about things that were being taught and accepted by people as doctrine.
有 17 个人聚集在一起，因为他们关心人们所教导和接受的教义。
And we were concerned, and we came together.
我们很担心，所以我们走到了一起。
And we prayed, and we asked, Heavenly Father, will you teach us?
我们祈祷，问天父，您愿意教导我们吗？
Will you tell us what is your doctrine and what is not?
您能告诉我们什么是您的教义，什么不是吗？
And will you protect us as individuals against things that we might do that would destroy ourselves?
您会保护我们个人免受我们可能做出的会毁掉我们自己的事情的影响吗？
The other thing, if Randy needs a lump of coal to keep his family warm and Steve's got two, then Steve says, Randy, here, have one of my lumps of coal.
另一件事，如果兰迪需要一块煤来让他的家人取暖，而史蒂夫有两块，那么史蒂夫说，兰迪，在这里，有我的一块煤。
And let's take care of each other.
让我们互相照顾。
Let's help each other, because we love each other, and we're concerned.
让我们互相帮助，因为我们彼此相爱，我们互相关心。
So there were two reasons that we came together-- to pray together and to help each other with our temporal needs.
所以我们聚集在一起有两个原因——一起祈祷和互相帮助解决暂时的需要。
They also did a lot of talking about the evils of the new world order, perhaps the need to stockpile weapons, the necessity of taking the kids out of the public schools, various conspiracies, secret combinations, and so on.
他们还大量谈论新世界秩序的罪恶，也许是储存武器的必要性、让孩子们离开公立学校的必要性、各种阴谋、秘密组合等等。
The men held the meetings in each other's homes.
这些人在彼此的家里举行会议。
And on special occasions, they'd set up a tepee on top of a mountain.
在特殊场合，他们会在山顶上搭建一个圆锥形帐篷。
In the tepee, they'd sit in a circle and bear their testimony and pray in the true order, which is a secret Mormon ritual that's supposed to be performed only in a temple.
在圆锥形帐篷里，他们围坐成一圈，作证并按照真正的顺序祈祷，这是一种秘密的摩门教仪式，应该只在寺庙里进行。
Mormons believe that by praying in the true order, the veil that separates heaven and earth can be parted, enabling angels and messengers of the Lord to cross over into this temporal plane.
摩门教徒相信，通过按照正确的顺序祈祷，分隔天地的幔子可以被分开，使天使和主的使者能够跨越这个时间平面。
Which is exactly what the men say started to happen in the tepee.
这正是人们所说的在帐篷里开始发生的事情。
They say their prayers called down lightning and thunderstorms from heaven.
他们说他们的祈祷从天上招来了闪电和雷暴。
They say that this is where God first told the group to organize themselves along Iroquois guidelines, wherein all decisions were to be made by unanimous revelation.
他们说，这是上帝首先告诉该团体按照易洛魁人的指导方针组织起来的地方，其中所有决定都必须在一致启示下做出。
Not just unanimous consent, unanimous revelation, where everyone would pray and have a vision, the same vision, at the same time.
不仅仅是一致同意、一致启示，每个人都会同时祈祷并拥有异象，相同的异象。
Then they all received a vision that they should give each other titles like war chief and peace chief and medicine chief and historian so that every man would be a chief with certain responsibilities, but that no man would be the ultimate chief with control over all the others.
然后他们都收到了一个愿景，他们应该互相授予战争酋长、和平酋长、医学酋长和历史学家等头衔，这样每个人都可以成为具有一定责任的酋长，但没有人可以成为控制其他所有人的最终酋长。
I recall the testimony meeting.
我记得证词会议。
And Jim Harmston stood up and he said, if any man here were to stand and declare himself a leader amongst these men, there would be 10 men who would stand up and shoot him in the knee caps, because none of us independently are the leader.
吉姆·哈姆斯顿站起来说，如果这里有一个人站起来并宣布自己是这些人中的领导者，那么将会有 10 个人站起来向他的膝盖开枪，因为我们没有一个人是独立的领导者。
We are a group of individuals who have come together, and nobody has authority over anybody else.
我们是一群聚集在一起的人，没有人拥有凌驾于其他人之上的权力。
That's how it started.
事情就是这样开始的。
That's how God called us together.
这就是神把我们召集在一起的方式。
The men started calling themselves the high council and then realized by unanimous revelation that they were actually new apostles of the Lord and that they should begin an entirely new church, the True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days and that they should start confirming each other as members.
这些人开始称自己为高级议会，然后通过一致的启示认识到他们实际上是主的新使徒，他们应该开始一个全新的教会，即耶稣基督末日圣徒真实而活着的教会，并且他们应该开始互相确认为成员。
And so I asked Jim if he would confirm me.
所以我问吉姆他是否愿意证实我的说法。
And as I sat in the chair facing the wall-- not the window, but the wall in Bart's living room--
当我坐在巴特客厅的椅子上，面朝墙壁——不是窗户，而是墙壁——
Facing east.
面朝东。
Steve Mckinley Facing east.
史蒂夫·麦金利 面向东方。
I had my head bowed, and my eyes were closed.
我低着头，闭上了眼睛。
And when I opened my eyes and was wondering why he was pausing.
当我睁开眼睛时，我想知道他为什么停了下来。
And then I closed my eyes again and I saw three men walk through the wall.
然后我再次闭上眼睛，我看到三个男人穿过墙壁。
It was Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and Heber C.
他们是约瑟夫·史密斯 (Joseph Smith)、杨百翰 (Brigham Young) 和希伯·C.
Kimball who came through the veil.
透过面纱而来的金博尔。
And they placed their hands upon my head and revealed many things concerning my life and my [UNINTELLIGIBLE] to certain things upon this earth that I should do.
他们把手放在我的头上，透露了许多关于我的生活和我在这个地球上应该做的某些事情的[难以理解]的事情。
And I could see the vision as he spoke.
当他说话时我可以看到异象。
I could see it, and Jim described what he saw, what we both saw in vision.
我可以看到它，吉姆描述了他所看到的，我们都在异象中看到的。
And Jim was so overwhelmed, he closed the vision.
吉姆不知所措，关闭了视野。
Because he was so overwhelmed he could not continue the vision, Jim ended it.
因为他太不知所措了，无法继续这个幻象，吉姆结束了它。
But it continued for me.
但对我来说它仍在继续。
And I saw many things that Jim did not speak.
我看到了很多吉姆没有说出来的事情。
The first major conflict within the new church came early on.
新教会内部的第一次重大冲突很早就发生了。
One of the high council apostles, Randy Dalton, the historian, came to a meeting and presented a teaching on polygamy he called "Hearts and Flowers."
高级议会的使徒之一、历史学家兰迪·道尔顿来到一次会议上，提出了关于一夫多妻制的教义，他称之为“心与花”。
I have a firm testimony that we are to become perfect.
我有坚定的见证，我们要变得完美。
The Lord has commanded us, be, therefore, perfect, even as I or my father in heaven are perfect.
因此，主命令我们要完美，就像我或我的天父一样完美。
Well, what does that mean?
嗯，这是什么意思？
In the Greek and in the Hebrew, the word that is used that we translate as perfect really means to be whole or complete.
在希腊语和希伯来语中，我们翻译为完美的词实际上意味着完整或完整。
I do not believe that it is possible for us to become whole or complete through intimate relationship with only one other person.
我不相信仅仅通过与另一个人的亲密关系，我们就可能变得完整或完整。
Now, the fact of the matter is that men just do not form emotionally intimate relationships with other men.
现在的事实是，男人只是不与其他男人形成情感上的亲密关系。
It's really kind of foreign to our being.
这对我们来说确实有点陌生。
And yet, look at women.
然而，看看女性。
They have these incredibly emotionally intimate relationships.
他们有着令人难以置信的情感亲密关系。
They know everything about each other.
他们了解彼此的一切。
The empathy is incredibly.
同理心令人难以置信。
They feel what the other is feeling.
他们感受到对方的感受。
And there is, in fact, one of the problems that is fundamental to most marriages, is that a woman craves a kind of nurturing in her relationship, in her marriage, that men are rarely capacitated to give.
事实上，大多数婚姻的根本问题之一是，女人渴望在她的关系中、在她的婚姻中得到某种滋养，而男人很少有能力给予这种滋养。
We're just not the nurturing types.
我们只是不是那种需要培养的人。
And yet, a woman needs that.
然而，女人需要这样。
And as men, we just tend not to be able to give it.
作为男人，我们往往无法给予它。
And yet, a sister wife can give so much of that emotional support that as men, we're just not very good at doing.
然而，姐妹妻子可以给予如此多的情感支持，而作为男人，我们只是不太擅长这样做。
And it can work very beautifully if you can get over issues like jealousy and things like that that get in the way.
如果你能克服嫉妒之类的问题，它就会非常有效地发挥作用。
So I was talking about these kinds of things.
所以我正在谈论这些事情。
We thought he was talking about homosexuality, and we were going to go out there and rip his head off.
我们以为他在谈论同性恋，我们准备出去把他的头扯下来。
We were upset because we didn't understand.
我们很沮丧，因为我们不明白。
We thought, is he talking about homosexuality?
我们想，他是在谈论同性恋吗？
If he is, we're going to set this boy straight.
如果他是，我们就会纠正这个男孩。
We're going to explain some things to him.
我们要向他解释一些事情。
And Randy says, wait a minute, guys.
兰迪说，等一下，伙计们。
That isn't what I said.
那不是我说的。
You see, let me tell you.
你看，让我告诉你。
And so we talked about it for a long time.
所以我们讨论了很长时间。
And that's not what Randy was talking about.
这不是兰迪所说的。
But we misunderstood it, and so did a lot of others.
但我们误解了它，很多其他人也误解了它。
A lot of others thought that's what he was talking about.
很多人都以为他说的就是这个。
That was not it.
事实并非如此。
It was a teaching that grew into an argument, that grew into a conflict that couldn't be resolved.
这种教导后来演变成了一场争论，演变成了一场无法解决的冲突。
The question wasn't whether polygamy was OK.
问题不在于一夫多妻制是否可以。
Everyone agreed that it was.
大家都同意确实如此。
The question was about sex, whether a polygamist man could have more than one of his wives in bed at a time.
问题是关于性的，一个一夫多妻制的男人是否可以同时拥有多个妻子在床上。
For two weeks, the group met and prayed in the true order.
两周来，小组按照正确的顺序聚会和祈祷。
Some said it was an abomination.
有人说这是令人憎恶的。
Others weren't so sure.
其他人则不太确定。
I told you earlier that many of us experimented with different things.
我之前告诉过你，我们很多人都尝试过不同的事情。
The true order prayer, we experimented with a lot of things.
真正的秩序祈祷，我们尝试了很多东西。
I think that Joseph Smith was the greatest example of an experimenter.
我认为约瑟夫·史密斯是实验家最伟大的例子。
He experimented with a lot of things.
他尝试了很多事情。
He had seer stones and peep stones and witching rods to witch wells and water and all kinds of things.
他有先知石、窥视石和巫杖，可以用来巫术井、水和各种各样的东西。
He experimented.
他进行了实验。
He tested.
他测试了。
There were many of us who tried and tested this so-called understanding of our sexuality with our wives.
我们中有很多人尝试并测试了与妻子对性行为的所谓理解。
Many of us on both sides.
我们双方都有很多人。
Members of Jim's church, members of the quorum of the 12 apostles, members of the first presidency of Jim's church who participated and experimented with having sex with more than one wife in the bed at a time.
吉姆教会的成员、十二使徒定额组的成员、吉姆教会第一任会长团的成员，他们参与并尝试一次与多个妻子在床上发生性关系。
They experimented with it, and they're OK.
他们尝试过，结果没问题。
They're members of Jim's church.
他们是吉姆教会的成员。
Three weeks after Randy Dalton gave the "Hearts and Flowers" teaching, there was still considerable tension within the council.
兰迪·道尔顿教授“心与花”教学三周后，理事会内部仍然存在相当大的紧张气氛。
And at the next meeting, it split apart.
在下一次会议上，它分裂了。
Instead of the council talking it out and coming to unanimous revelation, Jim Harmston stood up and said he had received revelation for everyone that three in a bed was an abomination in the eyes of the Lord.
吉姆·哈姆斯顿（Jim Harmston）站起来说，他已经向每个人表明，在主眼中，三个人睡在一张床上是可憎的事，而不是理事会讨论并达成一致的启示。
And while he was at it, he said he also received revelation that he alone was now in charge of the church.
他说，当他这样做时，他还收到启示，现在只有他一人负责教会。
He stands, and he says, I have received revelation for these people.
他站起来说，我已经收到了这些人的启示。
Thus sayeth the Lord.
主如此说。
And I want to emphasize that.
我想强调这一点。
He said, thus sayeth the Lord.
他说，主如此说。
Then Harmston and four other men stood and walked out of the meeting, leaving the others as outcasts, ostracized from the True and Living Church just as they had been ostracized from the Mormon church before.
然后哈姆斯顿和另外四个人起身走出会场，留下其他人作为被排斥者，被真实而活着的教会排斥，就像他们以前被摩门教教会排斥一样。
At that moment, Jim Harmston placed himself in a position above the others.
在那一刻，吉姆·哈姆斯顿（Jim Harmston）将自己置于高于其他人的位置。
At that moment, Jim Harmston took control of the church.
就在那时，吉姆·哈姆斯顿控制了教堂。
The sex thing was a smokescreen.
性的事情只是烟幕弹。
It was a smokescreen to cover up Jim's ambition to take over the council and the nation and everything else.
这是一个烟幕弹，旨在掩盖吉姆接管议会、国家和其他一切的野心。
And what more better tool could he use than something that was disgusting to most people.
还有什么比让大多数人都厌恶的东西更好的工具呢？
If he could say, well, these guys are perverts.
如果他能说，好吧，这些家伙都是变态。
They're having orgies.
他们正在狂欢。
They got everybody in bed, and they're a sex-crazed people.
他们让每个人都上床，他们是性疯狂的人。
Well, if anybody believes that plural marriage is about sex, they got another thing coming.
好吧，如果有人相信多重婚姻与性有关，那么他们就会遇到另一件事。
It has nothing to do with sex.
这与性无关。
It's about a relationship between people.
这是关于人与人之间的关系。
And God.
还有上帝。
Steve Mckinley And God.
史蒂夫·麦金利和上帝。
It has nothing to do, very little to do with sex.
它与性无关，几乎没有关系。
Believe me, I know.
相信我，我知道。
But you know, Nietzsche made a very interesting comment.
但你知道，尼采做了一个非常有趣的评论。
He said, "Battle not with monsters, lest you become a monster.
他说：“不要与怪物战斗，以免你成为怪物。
And when you gaze into the abyss, the abyss is within you." And I think that's what happened is that Jim Harmston has spent so much time fighting against the LDS church that he's become a general authority.
当你凝视深渊时，深渊就在你的内心。”我认为发生的事情就是吉姆·哈姆斯顿（Jim Harmston）花了太多时间与摩门教教会作斗争，以至于他成为了一般权威。
It may well be that every abuse he has accused the LDS church of may yet be found in his own circle.
他指责摩门教徒教会的每一次虐待行为很可能都发生在他自己的圈子里。
This split in the True and Living Church happened three years ago, and since then, Harmston has baptized hundreds of new members, whereas McKinley and Dalton and the others who were ostracized have pretty much just kept meeting with each other, four or five families getting together, sometimes on Sunday afternoons.
真实而活着的教会的分裂发生在三年前，从那时起，哈姆斯顿已经为数百名新成员施洗，而麦金利、道尔顿和其他被排斥的人几乎只是不断地互相聚会，四五个家庭聚会，有时在周日下午。
It was at one of these Sunday meetings that I interviewed McKinley and Dalton.
正是在其中一次周日的会议上，我采访了麦金利和道尔顿。
And the scene in the house was very different from what it was like at the Harmston's.
房子里的景象与哈姆斯顿家的景象截然不同。
McKinley and Dalton and the others joked around and laughed a lot.
麦金莱和道尔顿等人开玩笑，笑得很开心。
Their wives talked loudly in the kitchen, and all ages of children were running around inside and out.
他们的妻子在厨房里大声说话，各个年龄段的孩子都在里里外外跑来跑去。
Occasionally, one of the wives would come into the living room where we were talking, and it was difficult to tell which man was her husband, they all got along so well.
偶尔，其中一位妻子会走进客厅，我们正在聊天，很难看出哪个男人是她的丈夫，他们相处得很好。
But at Harmston's house, his two wives were upset and not talking to each other.
但在哈姆斯顿的家里，他的两个妻子很不高兴，互相不说话。
The first wife told me she'd gone after Jim that morning with a frying pan.
第一任妻子告诉我，那天早上她拿着煎锅去追吉姆。
The second wife hid in the back room.
二夫人躲在里屋。
And there were no kids.
而且没有孩子。
Everything was quiet and serious.
一切都是安静而严肃的。
It was like going from interviewing a group of hippies to interviewing Richard Nixon.
这就像从采访一群嬉皮士到采访理查德·尼克松。
Harmston sat at his desk in his study, looking out the window at the Manti Temple just a couple of blocks away, a temple built by the Mormon church over 80 years ago, a temple he still considers to be sacred and holy.
哈姆斯顿坐在书房的书桌前，望着窗外几个街区外的曼蒂神庙，这座神庙是摩门教在 80 多年前建造的，他仍然认为这座神庙神圣不可侵犯。
But it's a temple he's no longer allowed to enter.
但这是一座寺庙，他不再被允许进入。
He was kicked out of the Mormon church.
他被赶出了摩门教教堂。
He kicked out his friends from his own church.
他把他的朋友赶出了自己的教会。
His closest allies now are the angels and spirits who promise him that he alone holds the keys to the kingdom of heaven.
他现在最亲密的盟友是天使和灵魂，他们向他保证，只有他掌握着天国的钥匙。
Well, I'm either completely nuts or right on target, one or the other.
好吧，我要么完全疯了，要么正中目标，两者之一。
And there isn't anything in between.
两者之间没有任何东西。
They have to judge for themselves.
他们必须自己判断。
Saints of the Last Days was produced and reported by Scott Carrier with help from [?
《末日圣徒》是由斯科特·卡里尔 (Scott Carrier) 在 [? 的帮助下制作和报道的。
Caroline Campbell ?], Alex Caldiero, and myself.
卡罗琳·坎贝尔？]、亚历克斯·卡尔迪罗和我自己。
[MUSIC - "CAIN AND ABEL"BY LOUIS ARMSTRONG]
[音乐 - 路易斯·阿姆斯特朗的《该隐与亚伯》]
It's This American Life .
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Act Two, Political Faction.
第二幕，政治派别。
Well, if you read the first books of the Bible, as the story of the Israelites coming together as a people, it doesn't take long.
好吧，如果你读过《圣经》的第一卷书，比如以色列人作为一个民族聚集在一起的故事，那不会花很长时间。
It does not take long before some Israelites are casting others out as undesirable.
没过多久，一些以色列人就会将其他人视为不受欢迎的人而将其驱逐出去。
Just two generations after God makes the deal with Abraham to create a great nation, Joseph's brothers decide they're in and Joseph's out.
就在上帝与亚伯拉罕达成协议创造一个伟大国家的两代人之后，约瑟夫的兄弟决定他们加入，而约瑟夫则退出。
Soon he's sold into slavery.
很快他就被卖为奴隶。
Not long after, in biblical terms anyway, when the Israelites are in the desert fleeing Egypt, factions are doubting Moses' ability to lead them.
不久之后，无论如何，从圣经的角度来看，当以色列人在沙漠中逃离埃及时，各派都怀疑摩西领导他们的能力。
They make the golden calf.
他们创造了金牛犊。
There's another faction in the Book of Numbers.
《民数记》中还有另一个派别。
It happens a lot.
这种事经常发生。
Well, this next story takes place mostly in the mid 1970s, entirely among great believers, political believers in this case.
嗯，接下来的故事主要发生在 20 世纪 70 年代中期，完全是伟大的信徒，在本例中是政治信徒。
And they're believers who had great ideals as well.
他们也是有远大理想的信徒。
And the ideals were not only about political matters, international and national affairs.
这些理想不仅涉及政治事务，还涉及国际和国家事务。
They were very idealistic about how to treat each other.
他们对于如何对待彼此非常理想化。
They made all decisions by consensus.
他们以协商一致方式做出所有决定。
They told the truth to each other.
他们对彼此说了实话。
They believed that there was great value in being able to hear the truth and speak the truth to each other about how things were going, and they still split apart, painfully.
他们相信能够听到真相并互相说出真相，了解事情的进展是非常有价值的，但他们仍然痛苦地分手了。
Beau O'Reilly tells this story.
博·奥莱利讲述了这个故事。
He's a prolific local playwright, musician, performer.
他是一位多产的当地剧作家、音乐家、表演者。
And we welcome him.
我们欢迎他。
I broke my own rules today.
今天我打破了自己的规则。
I slipped into the Water Tower Mall.
我溜进了水塔购物中心。
And when I saw Betty Byzantine, I knew it was her right away, even though her whole physical aspect had changed quite a bit in the seven or eight years since I had last seen her.
当我看到贝蒂·拜占庭时，我立刻就知道那就是她，尽管自从我上次见到她以来，她的整个外表已经发生了很大的变化。
Her body in the old days was lumpy and full of itself.
昔日的她，身体凹凸不平，充满了自我。
But it had gone all sculpted and molded, a '90s weight world training woman's center body now.
但它已经完全被雕刻和模制而成，现在是 90 年代举重世界训练女性的中心身体。
Her hair, which had been a mossy color of brown was now hennaed red, and it was the red hennaed highlights that made her stand out on that escalator.
她的头发原本是苔藓般的棕色，现在变成了指甲花红色，正是红色指甲花的亮点让她在自动扶梯上脱颖而出。
She looked good, better than I looked.
她看起来很好，比我看起来更好。
At least better than I felt that day.
至少比我那天的感觉好多了。
And I thought, well, better to leave old Betty Byzantine alone.
我想，好吧，最好别打扰老贝蒂·拜占庭。
We didn't part on the best of terms.
我们并没有以最好的条件分手。
And I thought she hadn't recognized me, but as the escalator reached the eighth floor and she got off, she turned and deliberately pointed one long finger, cold.
而我以为她没有认出我，可是当自动扶梯到达八楼，她下了车后，她转过身，故意用一根修长的手指指着，冰冷的。
Just that one finger and Betty Byzantine was gone.
只剩下一根手指和贝蒂·拜占庭不见了。
Now, the terrible thing about Betty Byzantine was that there was really nothing terrible about her.
现在，贝蒂·拜占庭的可怕之处在于，她其实没有什么可怕的。
She was more plain, I guess.
我猜她比较朴素。
That's a nice way to say it.
这是一个很好的表达方式。
She had tended to fade into the background and become one of the small facts of the day.
她往往会淡出人们的视线，成为当时的小事实之一。
There was nothing that really stood out about Betty Byzantine when I knew her.
当我认识贝蒂·拜占庭时，她并没有什么真正引人注目的地方。
And I have examined my behavior towards Betty Byzantine occasionally over these last 15 years.
在过去的 15 年里，我偶尔审视过自己对贝蒂·拜占庭的行为。
Although I found myself wanting and insensitive towards her, even in my efforts to tell her story, I've never felt compelled to do anything to make it all right between us.
尽管我发现自己对她有需求并且麻木不仁，即使在我努力讲述她的故事时，我也从未感到有必要做任何事情来使我们之间的关系和好。
I've never felt the latent Catholic urge to confess it all and to throw myself at her feet, beg forgiveness for my coldness in the past.
我从来没有感受到潜在的天主教冲动，想要坦白一切，跪倒在她的脚下，请求她原谅我过去的冷漠。
This is another one of my rules I'm breaking.
这是我违反的另一条规则。
I tend to be very amends oriented.
我倾向于非常注重修正。
The first time I saw Betty Byzantine was in the kitchen of The Palace, our collectively run vegetarian restaurant and coffee house.
我第一次见到贝蒂·拜占庭是在我们集体经营的素食餐厅和咖啡馆 The Palace 的厨房里。
And Betty Byzantine was covered in this finely ground whole wheat flour.
贝蒂拜占庭被这种磨得很细的全麦面粉覆盖。
She was desperately trying to force it into a pie crust shape.
她拼命想把它压成馅饼皮的形状。
First pie crusts are unbearably a failure, and Betty's would prove no exception.
第一个馅饼皮失败得令人难以忍受，贝蒂的也不例外。
She was working under the watchful eyes of Small Craig, who was in charge of all of our desserts and our volunteers.
她在小克雷格的注视下工作，小克雷格负责我们所有的甜点和志愿者。
Pies and cakes and tarts, they were a lot of work, and Small Craig was always on the lookout for that rarest of individuals, the hardworking volunteer.
馅饼、蛋糕和馅饼，这些工作量很大，小克雷格总是在寻找最稀有的人，即勤奋的志愿者。
Small Craig was the most amicable of the hippies that I knew.
小克雷格是我认识的嬉皮士中最友善的一个。
And yet, at the same time, he was a man of efficient and disciplined work habits.
但与此同时，他又是一个有着高效、有纪律的工作习惯的人。
I could give Small Craig any job and consider it done.
我可以给小克雷格任何工作并认为它已经完成。
And we, the hippie family of The Palace collective, leaned on him.
而我们，皇宫集体的嬉皮家族，则依靠他。
Betty Byzantine was a sniffler.
贝蒂·拜占庭是个爱抽鼻子的人。
She was sniffling now.
她现在抽鼻子了。
And that sniffling would never stop the whole seven years I knew her.
在我认识她的整个七年里，这种抽鼻子永远不会停止。
Betty Byzantine had allergies, the year-round variety.
贝蒂·拜占庭患有过敏症，这种过敏症一年四季都有。
Allergies to dogs, milk, copper, dust, snow.
对狗、牛奶、铜、灰尘、雪过敏。
And it was those allergies that brought her to our palace in the first place.
正是这些过敏首先将她带到了我们的宫殿。
We were, in 1974, an island of health in a world collapsing under fast foods.
1974 年，我们还是一个在快餐时代崩溃的世界中的一座健康孤岛。
It was the allergies that brought her to The Palace where we hippies, 10 or 12 of us, lived and worked together.
正是过敏症将她带到了皇宫，我们这些嬉皮士，10 或 12 个人，一起生活和工作。
It was the allergies that brought her there, but it was Small Craig's eyes that kept her there, I think.
是过敏把她带到了那里，但我认为是小克雷格的眼睛让她留在那里。
She had eyes for Small Craig.
她看中了小克雷格。
And long after her hands had proven too clumsy for pie crusts, we were all still eating Betty Byzantine's pies.
在她的手被证明对于做馅饼皮来说太笨拙很久之后，我们仍然在吃贝蒂·拜占庭的馅饼。
Forced to by Small Craig who believed such diligence must be rewarded by the rest of us.
小克雷格强迫他这样做，他相信我们其他人一定会奖励这种勤奋。
Our pie palates might suffer, Small Craig argued, but Betty Byzantine's satisfaction at seeing all of us chew on her ashen-tasting pies was well worth it.
小克雷格认为，我们的馅饼口味可能会受到影响，但贝蒂·拜占庭看到我们所有人咀嚼她的灰白色馅饼时感到满意，这是非常值得的。
And two years later, after the collapse of The Palace under a mass of debt on debt, bad decisions leading to no decisions, we moved in smaller groups of three or four, hunting the great Midwest, the small college towns, for the last outposts of the hippie nation, which had spread and spewed itself like so much volcanic ash at the end of the Vietnam War and now flickered with a doubtful light.
两年后，在负债累累、糟糕的决定导致没有任何决定的情况下，宫殿崩溃了，我们三四个人分成小组，在伟大的中西部、小型大学城中寻找嬉皮国家的最后前哨，这个国家在越南战争结束时像火山灰一样蔓延和喷涌，现在闪烁着令人怀疑的光芒。
And the increasing draft of the '70s, that post-Nixon shame era, flickered with a still wild and a restless energy.
70年代的选秀日益增多，尼克松之后的耻辱时代，闪烁着仍然狂野和不安的能量。
Madison, Wisconsin, was one of those places.
威斯康星州麦迪逊就是其中之一。
It was comfortably feminist, cooperative, organic.
这是一种舒适的女权主义、合作性、有机性。
And Small Craig landed there, and I did too.
小克雷格降落在那里，我也降落在那里。
And Betty Byzantine followed like a magnet in a ball bearing factory, showing up the same day Small Craig did.
贝蒂·拜占庭（Betty Byzantine）像滚珠轴承工厂的磁铁一样紧随其后，与小克雷格（Small Craig）同一天出现。
She just happened to be looking for an apartment in the same neighborhood.
她只是碰巧在同一个街区寻找公寓。
She just happened to need a roommate.
她只是碰巧需要一个室友。
Betty and Craig became roommates.
贝蒂和克雷格成为室友。
Me, I had already started looking for the next big issue.
我，我已经开始寻找下一个大问题了。
The war had done a lot for the left.
战争给左派带来了很多好处。
It had forced us into action.
它迫使我们采取行动。
But what was next, nuclear weapons or that quiet nastier cousin, nuclear power?
但接下来会发生什么，是核武器还是那个安静的、更肮脏的表亲——核能？
Nuclear power had slowly replaced the faded war in our conversations, and it was all over our personal view screen that summer.
核能慢慢地取代了我们谈话中逐渐淡出的战争，那年夏天，它充斥在我们的个人屏幕上。
There were activists' "let's do something about the power plants" edges to every political conversation I was having.
在我进行的每一次政治对话中，活动人士都以“让我们为发电厂做点什么”为口号。
And I quickly became impassioned and determined to take an activist stand.
我很快就变得充满热情并决心采取积极的立场。
There were others around me feeling the same thing.
我周围的其他人也有同样的感觉。
So soon we had a new alternative family, the nuclear radioactivists we called ourselves.
很快我们就有了一个新的替代家庭，我们称自己为核放射学家。
And I invited Small Craig along, and here came Betty Byzantine uninvited, but not unexpected.
我邀请了小克雷格一起来，贝蒂·拜占庭不请自来，但并不意外。
We picked a nuclear power plant that was doing terrible things in an increasingly obvious way.
我们选择了一座核电站，它正在以越来越明显的方式做着可怕的事情。
It was in a section of Illinois that was closest to our Madison home, so a justifiable move on our part.
它位于伊利诺伊州的一个地区，距离我们麦迪逊的家最近，所以对我们来说这是一个合理的举动。
A stand could be made there.
那里可以设立一个摊位。
And after a series of late night rave-ups about it all and nonviolence training workshops, we went, and we made one.
经过一系列深夜狂欢和非暴力培训研讨会后，我们去了，我们做了一个。
And this was us.
这就是我们。
Mordecai, the crazed chemistry grad student who wanted to be a dancer, a filmmaker, or Allen Ginsberg but who carried this huge weight of serious chemistry all over his body and his shoulders.
莫迪凯，一个疯狂的化学研究生，他想成为一名舞蹈家、电影制片人，或者艾伦·金斯堡，但他的身体和肩膀上都承载着严肃化学的巨大重量。
But he was the most naturally anarchistic one of all of us.
但他是我们当中最天生的无政府主义者。
He drove recklessly.
他鲁莽驾驶。
He smoked too much.
他抽烟太多了。
He dated all the women we knew.
他和我们认识的所有女人都约会过。
And there was Maggie, who we said would smile and hand you a hand grenade like it was a lovely piece of fruit.
还有玛吉，我们说她会微笑着递给你一枚手榴弹，就像它是一块可爱的水果一样。
She would later become a New Yorker, a macrobiotic lesbian witch painter who crammed her canvases with live fish and dead fish bones.
她后来成为一名纽约客，一位长寿的女同性恋女巫画家，她的画布上塞满了活鱼和死鱼骨头。
But back then she was clear as a bell, a real hippie girl.
但那时的她却清清楚楚，是一个真正的嬉皮女孩。
And there was Teddy, who had this laugh like Bugs Bunny.
还有泰迪，他的笑声就像兔八哥一样。
Teddy was everybody's best friend and confidant.
泰迪是每个人最好的朋友和知己。
Teddy had a major flaw when it came to activism though.
不过，泰迪在行动主义方面有一个重大缺陷。
When it came time to be arrested, Teddy was out the door.
当被捕的时候，泰迪已经出门了。
There was Michelle.
那里有米歇尔。
Michelle was a stalwart, a Quaker.
米歇尔是一位坚定的贵格会教徒。
She was well trained in nonviolence and consensus decision making.
她在非暴力和共识决策方面受过良好的训练。
And she was the most radically left of all of us, first to be arrested and last to back down.
她是我们所有人中最激进的左派，第一个被捕，也是最后一个让步的人。
There's Kirk.
那儿有柯克。
Kirk was beautiful, and he rode a 10-speed bicycle up and down the hills of Madison without ever touching the handle bars, reading Joseph Conrad or William Faulkner.
柯克很漂亮，他骑着一辆 10 速自行车在麦迪逊的山上来回穿梭，从来没有碰过车把，还读着约瑟夫·康拉德 (Joseph Conrad) 或威廉·福克纳 (William Faulkner) 的书。
Handsome Kirk was Stalwart Michelle's lover until Small Craig's eyes moved him into Michelle's heart.
英俊的柯克是坚定的米歇尔的情人，直到小克雷格的眼睛把他打进了米歇尔的心里。
That change left Kirk quivering with emotion and Betty Byzantine just quivering.
这一变化让柯克激动不已，贝蒂·拜占庭也跟着颤抖。
That was the core of my radioactivist family, and I was often our unofficial spokesperson.
这是我的放射性家庭的核心，我经常是我们的非官方发言人。
I was 27, usually barefoot, and my hair was down to my hips.
我当时 27 岁，通常赤脚，头发垂至臀部。
Came from a poverty background with little education.
出身贫困，没有受过多少教育。
I was weak on the facts, but fierce with emotion and so earnest in those days.
那时的我对事实很软弱，但情感却很强烈，而且很认真。
Earnest with the cops, earnest with the plant workers, earnest with the judge.
对警察认真，对工厂工人认真，对法官认真。
That was the group of us that went into battle armed with good intentions and a not long for the real world glow of love for each other.
我们这群人带着良好的意愿和不久的将来在现实世界中彼此相爱的光芒而投入战斗。
And we blockaded that nuclear power plant.
我们封锁了那座核电站。
Beau O'Reilly's story continues in a minute when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续时，博·奥莱利的故事将在一分钟内继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week here on this program we chose a theme.
每周我们都会在这个节目中选择一个主题。
We invite a variety of writers and performance to take a whack at the theme.
我们邀请了各种各样的作家和表演来探讨这个主题。
And today, all of our stories are about friends who get together to try to do some thing and who end up enemies.
今天，我们所有的故事都是关于朋友聚在一起尝试做某事，最终却成为敌人的故事。
We return now to Beau O'Reilly's story about his radioactivist friends.
现在我们回到博·奥莱利关于他的放射性朋友们的故事。
As you will recall, they have blockaded a nuclear power plant with results they more or less expected.
你可能还记得，他们封锁了一座核电站，结果或多或少符合他们的预期。
The initial jailing lasted three or four days, and it was quite frightening for Betty Byzantine.
最初的监禁持续了三四天，这对贝蒂·拜占庭来说是相当可怕的。
She was with Maggie and Michelle, and both of them remained cool throughout.
她和玛吉和米歇尔在一起，两人自始至终都保持着冷静。
But that couldn't have helped her.
但这对她没有帮助。
Her fear was now sprinkled with that hot sauce of shame when she judged herself in comparison to them.
当她将自己与他们进行比较时，她的恐惧现在撒满了羞耻的辣酱。
There were the sounds of beating in adjacent cells and women weeping, and the cell was giddy with disinfectant.
邻近的牢房里传来殴打声和妇女的哭泣声，牢房里充满了消毒剂。
It was very frightening for Betty.
这对贝蒂来说非常可怕。
That was probably the first crack in the bond between Betty Byzantine and the rest of us.
这可能是贝蒂·拜占庭和我们其他人之间关系的第一次裂痕。
Because the rest of us delighted in having some of the real dirt of the system under our fingernails.
因为我们其他人很高兴能在我们的指甲下看到系统的一些真正的污垢。
That dirt was everywhere in the county jail.
县监狱里到处都是泥土。
And that same dirt, it made Betty Byzantine shake.
同样的污垢，也让贝蒂·拜占庭颤抖起来。
And as she was already quivering from the recent coupling of Small Craig and Stalwart Michelle, this trembling had become her way of being.
由于她已经因为小克雷格和坚定的米歇尔最近的结合而颤抖，这种颤抖已经成为她的生活方式。
By the time we got to the trial, we were in hippie heaven.
当我们到达审判现场时，我们已经进入了嬉皮士天堂。
And we did wild things there.
我们在那里做了一些疯狂的事情。
We read Dr. Seuss books to the jury, and we actually won the judge over and were acquitted.
我们向陪审团朗读了苏斯博士的书，实际上我们赢得了法官的支持并被无罪释放。
But Betty Byzantine wept on the stand.
但贝蒂·拜占庭在看台上哭泣。
She snuffled, and she sneezed and spoke in badly formed half sentences, forgetting the judge name.
她抽鼻子，打喷嚏，说着不完整的半句话，忘记了法官的名字。
The rest of us, we radioactivists rejoiced in our victory.
我们其他人，我们放射性专家，为我们的胜利感到高兴。
And we came home from the trial prancing and proud and puffed up like David after he delivers that stone onto the head of Goliath.
审判结束后，我们昂首阔步地回到家，骄傲自大，就像大卫把石头扔到歌利亚头上后一样。
We had an instant reputation amongst the activists for our intensity and our recklessness.
我们的热情和鲁莽很快就在积极分子中赢得了声誉。
And we had two or three, four more actions over the next two years, sticking to the principles of our nonviolence and growing closer and closer to each other.
在接下来的两年里，我们又采取了两、三、四项行动，坚持我们的非暴力原则，彼此之间的距离越来越近。
Probably I never loved anyone as cleanly and without qualm as I loved those radioactivists.
也许我从来没有像爱那些放射学家那样干净利落、毫无疑虑地爱过任何人。
All except Betty Byzantine.
除了贝蒂·拜占庭之外的所有人。
She loved only Small Craig, and she clung to him like a burr to a blanket, standing off to one side and offering her opinions when asked.
她只爱小克雷格，她像毯子上的毛刺一样紧紧抓住他，站在一边，在被问到时提出自己的意见。
And helped when needed, but never initiating anything.
并在需要时提供帮助，但从不主动采取任何行动。
Always just there.
永远就在那里。
Her eyes were hooded and secretive as she watched Small Craig and Stalwart Michelle boastful in their pink love haze.
当她看着小克雷格和坚定的米歇尔在粉红色的爱情薄雾中吹嘘时，她的眼睛被遮盖和神秘。
They of course were oblivious to Betty Byzantine's painful observation role.
他们当然没有注意到贝蒂·拜占庭痛苦的观察角色。
But I wasn't oblivious to it.
但我并没有忘记这一点。
I could have acted on it.
我本来可以采取行动的。
I would have too, except this coldness I felt for her.
我也会的，除非我对她感到冷漠。
I was aware of her tension and her fear, and I could have helped her.
我意识到她的紧张和恐惧，我本可以帮助她。
I could have helped her vent her emotions.
我本来可以帮助她发泄情绪的。
I could have suggested kindly that she take a sabbatical.
我本可以善意地建议她休假。
And with any of the others in the group, I would've done that.
对于小组中的任何其他人，我都会这样做。
I saw Betty Byzantine's hurt, but I didn't follow my own rules and reach out to her.
我看到贝蒂·拜占庭受到了伤害，但我没有遵循自己的规则向她伸出援手。
We were in our most active period, driving every weekend to trials, actions, conferences, speaking up and speaking out, often driving hundreds of miles a day and sleeping in a pile on someone's floor or couch.
我们正处于最活跃的时期，每个周末开车去参加审判、行动、会议，大声疾呼，经常每天开车数百英里，睡在别人的地板或沙发上。
It was fun, but it necessitated very close quarters.
这很有趣，但需要非常近的距离。
And Michelle and Craig's affair intensified and deepened.
米歇尔和克雷格的恋情愈演愈烈、加深。
And they pooled their monies together, and they bought a double sleeping bag so as to have some pretense of privacy when we all collapsed at the end of the day.
他们凑了钱，买了一个双人睡袋，以便在一天结束时我们都崩溃时可以假装隐私。
And Betty Byzantine watched like a hawk in those minutes before we all bedded down, and she grabbed whatever strip of floor or carpet that remained next to the sprawling double Michelle-Craig sleeping bag body, no matter how humble or pathetic it might seem.
在我们都上床睡觉之前的那几分钟里，贝蒂·拜占庭像鹰一样看着，她抓住了米歇尔·克雷格双人睡袋旁边剩下的任何一块地板或地毯，无论它看起来多么卑微或可怜。
And in the dark, she would sniffle herself awake, her nostrils hungry after the lovers' pheromones, her ears struck wide by the sounds of skin against skin.
在黑暗中，她会用鼻子吸醒自己，她的鼻孔渴望恋人的信息素，她的耳朵会被皮肤接触的声音震得张大。
In the meantime, nuclear power plants still belched and threatened all mankind.
与此同时，核电站仍在喷出气体，威胁着全人类。
And the anti-nuclear movement grew larger and clumsier and more strident.
反核运动变得更大、更笨拙、更激烈。
We began to argue with increasing force about what steps to take next.
我们开始就下一步该采取什么措施争论得越来越激烈。
We were small and able to act cleanly and without compromise, and that seemed great compared to the bloating anti-nuclear organizations that were growing like mushrooms around us.
我们规模很小，能够干净利落、不妥协地行动，与我们周围像蘑菇一样膨胀的反核组织相比，这似乎很棒。
We needed to be what?
我们需要成为什么？
More forceful, more aggressive, more knowledgeable?
更有力、更有侵略性、更有知识？
More compassionate?
更有同情心吗？
More Marxist?
更马克思主义？
More what?
更多什么？
And finally, one night after a long demonstration where we'd been very much in the forefront and there was lots of press and lots of passion, I was sitting up late with Small Craig and Mordecai and Teddy having one in an endless series of dynamic discussions, how the grouped worked and how the group didn't work.
最后，在一场长时间的示威之后的一天晚上，我们一直处于最前沿，有很多媒体和热情，我和小克雷格、莫迪凯和泰迪一起熬夜，进行了一系列无休止的动态讨论，讨论小组如何工作以及小组如何不工作。
And we all agreed that the group needed a renewal of focus.
我们都同意该小组需要重新调整重点。
And what was keeping us from getting that new focus?
是什么阻碍了我们获得新的焦点？
After all, we were all deeply committed to each other.
毕竟，我们都深深地彼此忠诚。
We loved each other.
我们彼此相爱。
Distraction.
分散注意力。
And what was the distraction?
是什么让我们分心呢？
There was a short list of possibilities.
有一个简短的可能性清单。
Political rhetoric, day jobs, marijuana, love affairs outside the group, love affairs within the group, Betty Byzantine.
政治言论、日常工作、大麻、团体外的风流韵事、团体内的风流韵事、贝蒂·拜占庭。
Betty Byzantine, like a huge crack in your favorite coffee cup.
贝蒂拜占庭，就像你最喜欢的咖啡杯上的一个巨大裂缝。
Once it's there you can't ignore it.
一旦它出现，你就无法忽视它。
I don't want to be in a group with Betty Byzantine, one of us said.
“我不想和贝蒂·拜占庭在一起，”我们其中一个人说。
But what a shudder of relief we all felt when we heard it.
但当我们听到这个消息时，我们都感到如释重负。
None of us wanted to be in a group with Betty Byzantine, and we would simply tell her that.
我们谁都不想和贝蒂·拜占庭在一起，我们只是简单地告诉她这一点。
And meeting after meeting went by, with the four of us telling Betty Byzantine.
会议一次又一次地过去，我们四个人告诉贝蒂·拜占庭。
Now in retrospect, this seems outrageous, I guess, that we would spend months stuck on this one thing and unable to get through it.
现在回想起来，我想这似乎令人愤慨，我们花了几个月的时间陷在这一件事上却无法解决它。
But in those days, that was how we did things, our group process, how we talked.
但在那些日子里，这就是我们做事的方式、我们的团队流程、我们的谈话方式。
That was our strength.
那是我们的力量。
That was the subject of endless fascination to us.
这是令我们无限着迷的主题。
It was what really interested us-- group consensus.
这是我们真正感兴趣的——群体共识。
And group consensus insisted on Betty Byzantine acknowledging our rejection and agreeing, consenting.
团体共识坚持贝蒂拜占庭承认我们的拒绝并同意，同意。
And she would not.
但她不会。
I mean, Betty Byzantine would state flatly that she had no intention of leaving this group.
我的意思是，贝蒂·拜占庭会直截了当地表示她无意离开这个团体。
Maggie and Michelle at first listened.
玛吉和米歇尔首先听了。
They played it neutral, trying to be helpful to both sides of the disagreement.
他们保持中立，试图为分歧双方提供帮助。
But slowly, this began to shift.
但慢慢地，这种情况开始发生转变。
Betty Byzantine did not wish to leave the group, and she should not be forced to leave, they argued.
他们认为，贝蒂·拜占庭不想离开这个团体，也不应该强迫她离开。
Our process was more crucial.
我们的流程更为关键。
It was more actively nonviolent.
它更加积极地非暴力。
How we got to our decision, that was the important thing.
我们如何做出决定，这才是重要的事情。
That was much more important than the decision.
这比决定重要得多。
Maggie and Michelle called for a decision, an agreement in our argument that would include Betty Byzantine.
玛吉和米歇尔呼吁做出决定，在我们的争论中达成一致，其中包括贝蒂·拜占庭。
But Betty Byzantine grew flatter meeting after meeting.
但贝蒂·拜占庭在一次又一次的会面中变得更加讨人喜欢。
And the men, they grew hotter and harsher.
而男人们则变得更加热情和严厉。
Betty Byzantine needed extra help.
贝蒂·拜占庭需要额外的帮助。
She needed extra attention.
她需要额外的关注。
She was not strong enough.
她还不够坚强。
These were our surface reasons for not wanting to work with her.
这些是我们不想与她合作的表面原因。
But these declarations of candor, this need to tell the truth under fire, it took on a life of its own.
但这些坦诚的宣言，这种在激烈的攻击下说出真相的需要，却有了自己的生命。
And all four of us felt compelled to just tell all and hold nothing back.
我们四个人都觉得有必要把一切都说出来，不隐瞒。
Betty Byzantine was not charismatic.
贝蒂·拜占庭没有魅力。
That was a problem.
这是一个问题。
Betty Byzantine was not essential.
贝蒂·拜占庭并不是必需的。
She was not cool enough.
她还不够冷静。
She was not attractive.
她没有吸引力。
Betty Byzantine was a drag.
贝蒂·拜占庭是个累赘。
And Betty Byzantine hunched her shoulders and she quivered and she stuck to her guns.
贝蒂·拜占庭耸起肩膀，浑身颤抖，但她仍坚持自己的立场。
She took it.
她接过了。
But she would not leave this anti-nuclear family.
但她不会离开这个反核家庭。
And then finally, one night, I'd had it, and I just said it coldly and flatly.
最后，有一天晚上，我终于受够了，我只是冷冷地、平淡地说了出来。
You know, you have to leave the group for the sake of the group.
要知道，为了团体，你必须离开团体。
And if you don't, the group will cease to exist.
如果你不这样做，该团体将不复存在。
And I will not agree to continue on like this.
而且我不会同意继续这样下去。
And Betty Byzantine said, no, she would not leave.
贝蒂·拜占庭说，不，她不会离开。
And in that moment, the group ended.
就在那一刻，小组结束了。
And the look on Betty's face, and the other women, and maybe on all of our faces, was a look of horror that it had gotten so hard and harsh between us all.
贝蒂和其他女人脸上的表情，也许还有我们所有人的脸上，都是一种恐惧的表情，因为我们之间的关系变得如此艰难和严酷。
And the door slammed.
门关上了。
It just slammed shut that night.
那天晚上就突然关门了。
And we'd failed to reach an agreement, and there would be no unanimous revelation.
我们未能达成一致，也不会有一致的披露。
We ended as an activist group, and most of our friendships just sort of blew away.
我们作为一个激进团体结束了，我们的大部分友谊都消失了。
Maggie and Michelle left the community.
玛吉和米歇尔离开了社区。
Betty Byzantine surprised us all then by deepening her activism, becoming a major organizer in the women's movement.
贝蒂·拜占庭深化了她的行动主义，成为妇女运动的主要组织者，令我们所有人感到惊讶。
And ironically, the rest of us just drifted from activism.
讽刺的是，我们其他人只是偏离了激进主义。
Betty Byzantine really showed us all.
贝蒂·拜占庭确实向我们展示了一切。
So today when I saw her at the mall and she gave me that long, cold finger, I could see that she had progressed.
所以今天当我在商场看到她时，她向我伸出了那根冰冷的长手指，我可以看到她已经进步了。
She was no longer hunched and quivering.
她不再驼背、颤抖。
Betty Byzantine seemed to be doing just fine.
贝蒂·拜占庭似乎表现得很好。
[MUSIC- "WE SHALL NOT BE MOVED" BY PETE SEEGER]
[音乐-皮特·西格的《我们不会被感动》]
Act Three, Racial Factions.
第三幕，种族派别。
People do things in a group that they would never do one-on-one.
人们在团队中做一些他们永远不会一对一做的事情。
For yet another example of that, we turn now to Glenn Loury.
我们现在来看看格伦·洛里的另一个例子。
Glenn Loury's on the list, whenever anybody makes a list these days, of the preeminent black intellectuals in this country.
如今，每当有人列出这个国家杰出黑人知识分子的名单时，格伦·洛里就会出现在名单上。
Formerly a professor at Harvard, now at Boston University.
曾任哈佛大学教授，现为波士顿大学教授。
His writing appears in a variety of scholarly and popular publications, including the Wall Street Journal , The New Republic , and many, many conservative journals of opinion.
他的作品出现在各种学术和流行出版物上，包括《华尔街日报》、《新共和》以及许多许多保守派观点杂志。
In the prologue to his book, One by One from the Inside Out, a book of essays on race and responsibility, as it says on the cover, Loury tells the story of an incident that happened to him in the 1960s on the south side of Chicago where he grew up.
洛里在他的书《由内而外逐一》的序言中讲述了 20 世纪 60 年代在他长大的芝加哥南区发生的一件事情，这是一本关于种族和责任的散文集。
He was at a black political rally, the exact nature of which he writes he does not remember.
他参加了一次黑人政治集会，但他不记得他所写的集会的确切性质。
His best friend, Woody Jordan, brought him.
他最好的朋友伍迪乔丹带来了他。
Woody is a guy who looks like a white guy to anybody who didn't know him and who'd be walking by on the street.
对于任何不认识他的人以及在街上走过的人来说，伍迪看起来就像一个白人。
They would assume that he was white.
他们会认为他是白人。
Anyway, we're at this rally, and Woody wants to say something.
不管怎样，我们在这次集会上，伍迪想说点什么。
And the leaders, these guys in dashikis, the Black Power captains, sort of turn on him sharply, and they sort of say, what are you doing here?
领导者们，这些穿着大裤衩的家伙，黑人力量的队长们，对他发起了猛烈的攻击，他们说，你在这里做什么？
How can you have something to say at our rally?
你怎么能在我们的集会上有话要说呢？
That's part of our problem.
这是我们问题的一部分。
White people are always peeping our hole card was the phrase that was used, I remember very clearly.
白人总是偷看我们的底牌是用过的一句话，我记得很清楚。
But we never can go downtown and find out what the white man is thinking about.
但我们永远无法去市中心了解白人在想什么。
And then finally the guy says, who can vouch for this man?
最后那人说，谁能为这个人做担保？
And to my everlasting shame, the fact of the matter is, I failed to speak up for my lifelong friend.
令我永远羞愧的是，事实是，我没能为我终生的朋友说话。
I failed to vouch for him and to tell them that this guy was OK.
我没有为他提供担保，也没有告诉他们这个人没问题。
I was intimidated by these guys and perhaps insecure in my own authenticity as a black person.
我被这些人吓到了，也许对自己作为黑人的真实性缺乏安全感。
And I abandoned my friend in order to not offend the sensibilities of people who were essentially strangers.
我抛弃了我的朋友，以免冒犯那些本质上是陌生人的人的感情。
Can I ask you, at one point in the essay you write, "I would always be black in white America, yet my standing among other blacks could be made conditional upon my fidelity to the prevailing party line of the moment." I wonder, do you see part of this as the nature just of any group, any religious, or political, or social group, that as soon as it begins to define itself as a group, inevitably it begins to define who is in and who is out?
我可以问你，在你写的文章中的某个时刻，“在白人美国，我永远是黑人，但我在其他黑人中的地位可能取决于我对当时流行的政党路线的忠诚。”我想知道，你是否认为这部分是任何团体、任何宗教、政治或社会团体的本质，一旦它开始将自己定义为一个团体，它就不可避免地开始定义谁在里面，谁在外面？
Who is really in and who is really out?
谁是真正的进来，谁是真正的出去？
Well, yes, I suppose that's so.
嗯，是的，我想是这样的。
Although, as I say, I would always be black in white America.
尽管，正如我所说，在白人美国我永远是黑人。
That is, there's a sense in which for African Americans, to a certain degree, those boundaries are given in the situation.
也就是说，对于非裔美国人来说，在某种程度上，这些界限是在这种情况下给定的。
And we then add to them by, as I say, constructing these tests of what it means to be genuinely or really black.
然后，正如我所说，我们通过构建这些测试来补充这些测试，以确定真正或真正的黑人意味着什么。
Black people are not supposed to be interested in classical music.
黑人不应该对古典音乐感兴趣。
They're not supposed to be interested in the German language.
他们不应该对德语感兴趣。
We're not supposed to like Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young, and so on.
我们不应该喜欢克罗斯比、斯蒂尔、纳什和杨等等。
Glenn Loury says in his essay that after that rally, he and Woody never discussed the incident.
格伦·洛里在他的文章中表示，在那次集会之后，他和伍迪从未讨论过这一事件。
And while they continued to be friends for a while, things were never the same between them.
虽然他们继续成为朋友一段时间，但他们之间的情况却发生了变化。
When I called Woody Jordan to get his side of the story, he had not spoken to Glenn Loury in years.
当我打电话给伍迪·乔丹了解他的说法时，他已经很多年没有和格伦·洛里说过话了。
He didn't know that his former best friend had written any books, much less any that mentioned him.
他不知道他以前最好的朋友写过任何书，更不用说提到他了。
Jordan still lives in Chicago, is an attorney in the Public Defender's Office on the murder task force.
乔丹仍然住在芝加哥，是谋杀特别工作组公设辩护人办公室的一名律师。
He has a caseload of 25 adults and juveniles, all of them accused of homicide.
他手上有 25 名成年人和青少年的案件，他们都被指控犯有杀人罪。
The largest thing on the wall behind his desk at work is a poster, put out by the Black Panthers.
他工作时办公桌后面的墙上最大的东西是黑豹党张贴的海报。
"Eldridge Cleaver for President," it says, with the word "revolution" twice in huge block letters.
上面写着“埃尔德里奇·克利弗竞选总统”，并用大写字母写了两次“革命”一词。
And though his old friend Glenn Loury doesn't remember what rally it was a quarter century ago, Woody Jordan remembers.
尽管他的老朋友格伦·洛里不记得四分之一世纪前的那场集会，伍迪·乔丹却记得。
He says it was a Black Panther rally immediately after police killed panther leader Fred Hampton in his bed in the middle of the night in Chicago.
他说，警察半夜在芝加哥杀死了黑豹党领袖弗雷德·汉普顿（Fred Hampton）在床上后，立即举行了黑豹党集会。
The evidence showed that there were 72 rounds fired from outside of the apartment.
证据显示，公寓外共发射了72发子弹。
Man, this gets me mad just talking about it.
伙计，光是谈论这件事就让我生气。
There were 72 rounds fired into the apartment.
公寓内共发射了 72 发子弹。
And maybe, maybe, one round fired out.
也许，也许，一轮发射了。
But while he remembers the politics of the rally and the details of the murder, he had completely forgotten the incident that Glenn Loury describes in his essay.
但是，虽然他记得集会的政治和谋杀的细节，但他完全忘记了格伦·洛里在文章中描述的事件。
He said this kind of challenge about his blackness happened to him all the time when he was a kid.
他说，这种关于他的黑人身份的挑战在他小时候一直发生在他身上。
On the street, at parties, at school, from cops.
在街上、在聚会上、在学校、在警察面前。
And he was surprised that his friend found any reason to write about the rally at all.
他很惊讶他的朋友居然找到了写这次集会的理由。
It didn't bother me any more than to the end of the day.
直到一天结束时，这并没有让我感到更困扰。
You know, I never said anything about it because it wasn't any big thing.
你知道，我从来没有说过这件事，因为这不是什么大事。
Obviously, it was a big thing for him.
显然，这对他来说是一件大事。
And if it was, he should have said something by now, doggone it.
如果是的话，他现在应该说点什么了，该死的。
But by then, my emotional callouses were quite thick.
但那时，我的感情已经结了厚厚的茧。
That particular incident, I had honestly forgotten about it because it had happened so often before.
老实说，我已经忘记了那件事，因为它以前经常发生。
It didn't stick in my mind that much.
它并没有那么深刻地留在我的脑海里。
Let me ask you what you make of this sentence from Glenn Loury's writing.
让我问你如何看待 Glenn Loury 的这句话。
He says, "Upon reflection, my refusal to stand up to Woody exposed the tenuous quality of my own personal sense of racial authenticity.
他说：“经过反思，我拒绝与伍迪对抗暴露了我个人的种族真实感的脆弱性。
The fact is I willingly betrayed someone I had known for a decade, a person whom I loved and who loved me, in order to avoid the risk of being rejected by strangers.
事实上，我心甘情愿地背叛了一个我认识了十年的人，一个我爱的人，也爱我的人，以避免被陌生人拒绝的风险。
I had feared that to proclaim before the black radicals in the audience that this white boy at my side was in fact our brother would have compromised my own chance of being received among them as a genuine colleague."
我担心，如果在观众中的黑人激进分子面前宣称我身边的这个白人男孩实际上是我们的兄弟，就会损害我在他们中间被视为真正同事的机会。”
Let me ask you, what do you think of that?
我问你，你对此有何看法？
What's your reaction?
你的反应是什么？
I can take it two ways.
我可以采取两种方式。
I can take it one, as just being-- I mean, you got to remember.
我可以把它理解为——我的意思是，你必须记住。
He's talking about a time when he was still a freaking kid.
他说的是他还是个怪孩子的时候。
OK, that's one way of looking at it.
好吧，这是看待问题的一种方式。
The other way of looking at it is, let us assume that this is an adolescent who was, in fact, in possession of all of the faculties of an adult male, of a grown man.
另一种看待它的方式是，让我们假设这是一个青少年，他实际上拥有成年男性、成年男子的所有能力。
Maybe what was going through his mind is, what's more important, one individual or my people?
也许他脑子里想的是，一个人重要还是我的人民重要？
Unity or one individual?
团结还是个体？
And how do you answer that?
你如何回答这个问题？
How do you answer that?
你怎么回答这个问题？
I think that in the final analysis when you're talking about a situation where you feel that your people's survival is actually threatened, then your people are more important than one individual.
我认为，归根结底，当你在谈论一种你觉得你的人民的生存实际上受到威胁的情况时，那么你的人民比一个人更重要。
But if you follow that argument to its logical conclusion, then you're saying that he would have been right to turn his back on you in that crowd if the situation were dire enough.
但如果你按照这个论点得出合乎逻辑的结论，那么你就会说，如果情况足够可怕的话，他在人群中背弃你是正确的。
I'm not so sure it wasn't.
我不太确定不是这样。
I'm not so sure it wasn't.
我不太确定不是这样。
But he would be right at your expense and at the expense of your friendship.
但他会以牺牲你和你们的友谊为代价来做出正确的决定。
What's more important, your people or one individual?
你的员工和个人哪个更重要？
I'm just one person.
我只是一个人。
I'm not that important.
我没那么重要。
Maybe what he did was the right thing.
也许他所做的事情是正确的。
Maybe what he did was right.
或许他的做法是对的。
The issue is unity, not friendship at that point.
那时的问题是团结，而不是友谊。
Oh, that's fascinating.
哦，这很有趣。
He certainly has got the spirit of the moment just right because the issue was unity.
他当然抓住了当下的精神，因为问题是团结。
And I wish it were true.
我希望这是真的。
I wish it were the case that my motives had been that pure, that I had said, ah, the right thing to do here at some level is to defend Woody, but that would disrupt the unity of this meeting.
我希望我的动机是那么纯粹，我说过，啊，在某种程度上，这里应该做的正确的事情是为伍迪辩护，但这会破坏这次会议的团结。
But you see, that wasn't my thinking.
但你看，那不是我的想法。
I mean, I was not a politician.
我的意思是，我不是政治家。
I was an 18-year-old kid.
我当时是一个18岁的孩子。
I was somebody who was overwhelmed by the more immediate and visceral feelings of acceptance and embarrassment and insecurity.
我是一个被更直接、更发自内心的接受、尴尬和不安全感淹没的人。
The only unity that I was interested in was the unanimity of that group in thinking that I was a good guy.
我唯一感兴趣的团结是那群人一致认为我是个好人。
You know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
Not black people forever and we got to stick together to fight the man.
黑人不是永远的，我们必须团结起来对抗这个人。
It was just merely, please don't look askance at Glenn.
只是，请不要斜视格伦。
One of the odd things about this story is that it's Woody who takes you to the rally, and then it's him who ends up having to leave in shame.
这个故事的奇怪之处在于，是伍迪带你去集会，然后是他最终不得不羞愧地离开。
Yeah, and Woody is the guy who's working as a public defender defending black and Hispanic, I'm sure almost entirely, people accused of murder.
是的，伍迪是一名公设辩护人，为黑人和西班牙裔辩护，我确信几乎全部是被指控谋杀的人。
And I'm the guy who people call a black neoconservative whose daughter, ironically, is an assistant district attorney in Chicago at this very moment.
我是一个被人们称为黑人新保守主义者的人，讽刺的是，我的女儿此时此刻是芝加哥的助理地方检察官。
Really?
真的吗？
So your daughter could be prosecuting cases that he's defending?
那么你的女儿可能会起诉他正在辩护的案件？
She prosecutes juvenile felons, some of whom are up for murder.
她起诉青少年重罪犯，其中一些人涉嫌谋杀。
I don't know if his practice includes the public defender of juvenile defendants.
我不知道他的执业是否包括未成年被告人的公设辩护人。
But in theory, yes.
但理论上是的。
I think you guys should sell the movie rights to this to somebody.
我认为你们应该把这部电影的版权卖给某人。
I don't know exactly who.
我不知道具体是谁。
There's some made-for-TV movie in here somewhere.
这里某处有一些为电视制作的电影。
I don't know what.
我不知道是什么。
You know, yeah, that's an idea.
你知道，是的，这是一个想法。
But it abounds in ironies, that's for sure.
但它充满讽刺意味，这是肯定的。
I should tell you that in his office he sits-- the largest thing in his office right behind him when you come in and see him is, there's an Eldridge Cleaver poster.
我应该告诉你，他坐在他的办公室里——当你进来看到他时，他办公室里最大的东西就在他身后，有一张埃尔德里奇·克利弗(Eldridge Cleaver)的海报。
Get out of here.
离开这里。
Ira Glass No, for real.
艾拉·格拉斯 不，真的。
That's unbelievable.
这太难以置信了。
, Ira Glass Unbelievable in what way?
，艾拉·格拉斯难以置信在什么方面？
Well, you know, the last time I read Soul on Ice it almost made me want to throw up.
嗯，你知道，上次我读《冰上的灵魂》时，它几乎让我想吐。
I mean, Eldridge Cleaver of 1968, yeah.
我的意思是，1968 年的埃尔德里奇·克利弗 (Eldridge Cleaver)，是的。
Eldridge Cleaver looked at now with 28 years hindsight, my god.
埃尔德里奇·克利弗 (Eldridge Cleaver) 现在回想起来，已经是 28 年后的事了，天哪。
What's on the walls of your office right now?
你办公室的墙上现在挂着什么？
Photographs of me in the company of Ronald Reagan on one occasion and Margaret Thatcher on another, among many other things.
其中一张是我和罗纳德·里根在一起的照片，另一张是我和玛格丽特·撒切尔在一起的照片，还有很多其他照片。
But let me just duly note that those things are there.
但让我适当地指出这些东西就在那里。
Well, our program was produced today by Peter Clowney and myself, with Dolores Wilber, Alix Spiegel, and Nancy Updike.
好吧，我们今天的节目是由彼得·克劳尼和我本人以及多洛雷斯·威尔伯、阿利克斯·斯皮格尔和南希·厄普代克制作的。
Contributing editors Paul Tough, Jack Hitt and Margy Rochlin.
特约编辑 Paul Tough、Jack Hitt 和 Margy Rochlin。
Elizabeth Meister runs our website.
伊丽莎白·梅斯特 (Elizabeth Meister) 负责运营我们的网站。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] If you'd like to buy a cassette of this or any other of our programs, visit our website, www.thisamericanlife.org, where you can also to listen to our programs for free.
[致谢] 如果您想购买本节目或我们任何其他节目的磁带，请访问我们的网站 www.thisamericanlife.org，您还可以在其中免费收听我们的节目。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight by Torey Malatia, who describes his management style this way.
[资金来源] WBEZ 管理由 Torey Malatia 监督，他这样描述了他的管理风格。
Well, I'm either completely nuts or right on target, one or the other.
好吧，我要么完全疯了，要么正中目标，两者之一。
And there isn't anything in between.
两者之间没有任何东西。
I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life.
我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。