204: 81 Words - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #204 | December 14, 2018 204: 81 Words Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 204 集 | 2018 年 12 月 14 日 204：81 字 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass So for weeks and months and years, people write to their legislators, and lobbyists make massive campaign contributions to try to swing the votes.
序言 艾拉·格拉斯 因此，在数周、数月和数年的时间里，人们给立法者写信，而游说者则提供大量竞选捐款，试图左右选票。
And there are stories on the TV and editorials in the newspapers.
电视上有故事，报纸上有社论。
And people talk about it, and then they ignore it.
人们谈论它，然后就忽略它。
Then they talk about it some more.
然后他们又讨论了一些。
And then there are votes, and there are compromises and more votes.
然后是投票、妥协和更多的投票。
And finally, the president signs the bill into law.
最后，总统签署该法案成为法律。
And when he does it, there are special pens that he uses.
当他这样做时，他会使用特殊的笔。
It's the pens that I want to talk about.
我想谈谈的是钢笔。
He uses more than one, then he gives the pens away.
他用了不止一支钢笔，然后他把钢笔送人了。
And people save these pens for years.
人们将这些钢笔保存多年。
Pens.
笔。
They didn't do anything.
他们什么也没做。
You know what I'm talking about here?
你知道我在这里说什么吗？
The pen that Lyndon Johnson used to sign the Voting Rights Act-- that pen did not give anybody the right to vote.
林登·约翰逊用来签署投票权法案的笔——那支笔并没有赋予任何人投票权。
It took the entire political machinery of a huge country to do that.
这需要一个大国的整个政治机制才能做到这一点。
But, OK.
但是，好吧。
Let's say that you end up with one of these pens.
假设您最终得到了其中一支钢笔。
I'm guessing that, from time to time, what you do is that you take out the pen and you stare at it, and you think a thought that goes along the lines of-- this pen was right there.
我猜你有时会拿出笔，盯着它看，然后你就会想到——这支笔就在那里。
This pen has done something more important than I will ever do, which is, of course, a distressing thought because, after all, it is just a pen, and you are a human being.
这支笔做了比我做过的更重要的事情，这当然是一个令人痛苦的想法，因为毕竟它只是一支笔，而你是一个人。
But put that aside.
但把它放在一边。
It's just uncanny.
这真是不可思议。
I think that's the word.
我想就是这个词。
It's uncanny when something so small, for a moment, for the length of time that it takes to sign a name, can carry the entire weight of history of a nation.
令人不可思议的是，如此微小的事情，哪怕是在一个瞬间、在签署一个名字所需的时间里，却能承载一个国家历史的全部分量。
Today's radio program is about something small like that that was at the epicenter of a massive social change in our country for a brief moment.
今天的广播节目是关于一些小事，就像我们国家短暂的大规模社会变革的中心一样。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today, we are devoting our entire show to this one killer story about something very small, something small that helped change something very, very large.
今天，我们将整个节目奉献给这个杀手故事，讲述一些非常小的事情，一些小事情帮助改变了非常非常大的事情。
It's a story of doctors, of science, of homosexuals, of lucky coincidence and political action, and of the sheer power of good old-fashioned face-to-face schmoozing.
这是一个关于医生、科学、同性恋、幸运巧合和政治行动的故事，以及老式面对面闲聊的绝对力量的故事。
Alix Spiegel tells the story.
阿利克斯·斯皮格尔讲述了这个故事。
This is the story of a definition, three single sentences composed of 81 words.
这是一个定义的故事，三个单句由81个单词组成。
It's the story of how this particular definition became another definition, nine sentences, composed of 237 words.
这是关于这个特定定义如何成为另一个定义（由 237 个单词组成的 9 个句子）的故事。
Now according to some parties, this change from 81 words to 237 words liberated an entire category of humanity.
现在，根据一些人士的说法，从81个单词到237个单词的变化解放了整个人类类别。
According to other parties, it undermined the basic family unit, compromised the scientific authority of psychiatry, and quote, "tampered with the basic code and concept of life."
据其他人士称，它破坏了基本的家庭单位，损害了精神病学的科学权威，并引用“篡改了基本的生活准则和概念”。
Now, I should tell you that I know this story not because I read it in a book or learned it in any class, but because it's one of those stories that my family uses to explain itself.
现在，我应该告诉你，我知道这个故事不是因为我在书上读到或在任何课堂上学到的，而是因为它是我的家人用来解释自己的故事之一。
Like most family stories-- anyway, like most stories told in my family-- the version I heard growing up was an exaggeration, the relevant family member cast as a conquering hero.
就像大多数家庭故事一样——无论如何，就像我家里讲述的大多数故事一样——我成长过程中听到的版本是夸张的，相关的家庭成员被塑造成一个征服英雄。
The actual story, the story I hope to tell you is, of course, much more complicated.
实际的故事，我希望告诉你的故事，当然要复杂得多。
But I'm getting ahead of myself.
但我有点超前了。
June 23rd, 1980, at the home of the seagulls in Woodstock, New York.
1980 年 6 月 23 日，纽约伍德斯托克海鸥队的主场。
My grandfather, John P.
我的祖父约翰·P.
Spiegel, used to say that he was a fish.
斯皮格尔曾经说过他是一条鱼。
It's true.
这是真的。
Most of my memories of him are memories of a body floating face down in the water, slack, communing with his brothers and sisters of the sea.
我对他的大部分记忆都是关于他的身体面朝下漂浮在水中，慵懒地与他的海上兄弟姐妹交流。
He was a strange man-- a doctor of psychiatry who spent months in the desert studying exotic tribes, smoking their drugs, sleeping under the stars, living, he said, like a native.
他是一个奇怪的人——一位精神病学医生，他花了几个月的时间在沙漠中研究异国部落，吸食他们的毒品，睡在星空下，他说，像当地人一样生活。
This tape, the tape that you hear running under my voice, was recorded for my cousin Zoe's 12th birthday.
这盘磁带，你在我的声音下听到的磁带，是为我表弟佐伊的 12 岁生日录制的。
She'd gotten a tape recorder as a present and had asked my grandfather if she could interview him.
她收到了一台录音机作为礼物，并问我祖父是否可以采访他。
Zoe was a smart kid, but still only a graduate of the seventh grade, and so my grandfather politely declined.
佐伊是个聪明的孩子，但还只是七年级的毕业生，所以我的祖父礼貌地拒绝了。
He decided there was only one person present with the intelligence and experience necessary to interview Dr. John P.
他认为只有一个人具备采访约翰·P·肯尼迪博士所需的智力和经验。
Siegel.
西格尔。
That person?
那个人？
Dr. John P.
约翰·P.博士
Siegel.
西格尔。
All right, Grandpa, would you mind telling us what you're doing here?
好吧，爷爷，您介意告诉我们您在这里做什么吗？
All right, John, I'll tell you.
好吧，约翰，我告诉你。
I'm here to help celebrate Zoe's 12th birthday.
我来这里是为了帮助庆祝佐伊的 12 岁生日。
True, her birthday was on Thursday, but I wasn't able to be here on Thursday, so I came on Friday.
确实，她的生日是在星期四，但我星期四没能来，所以我星期五来了。
And I've been here all weekend, and we're having a marvelous time.
我整个周末都在这里，我们度过了一段美好的时光。
My grandfather interrogates himself about the difficulty of travel from Boston to upstate New York and the movie the family saw the night before, Urban Cowboy, which included an actor that my grandfather refers to as John Revolta.
我的祖父审问自己从波士顿到纽约州北部的旅行有多困难，以及家人前一天晚上看的电影《都市牛仔》，其中包括我祖父所说的约翰·雷沃尔塔的演员。
Then he moves on to other topics of potential interest to posterity.
然后他转向后人可能感兴趣的其他话题。
And what are your plans from here on out, grandpa?
爷爷，从现在开始你有什么计划？
Well, John, I'm going to go to Ireland.
好吧，约翰，我要去爱尔兰。
I've been asked to testify in a trial being conducted by a gay activist who happens to be a professor of English at Trinity College and who is bringing a suit against the state of Ireland to change the constitution, which has several extremely repressive provisions forbidding, and condemning, and devaluing homosexuality.
我被要求在一位同性恋活动家进行的审判中作证，他恰好是三一学院的英语教授，他正在对爱尔兰州提起诉讼，要求修改宪法，其中有几项极其压制性的条款，禁止、谴责和贬低同性恋。
And I've been asked to testify as an expert in mental health.
我被要求作为心理健康专家作证。
My grandfather was a psychiatrist, but not in any sense an expert on what was then called sexual deviance.
我的祖父是一位精神病学家，但在任何意义上都不是当时所谓的性越轨问题的专家。
Still, he was asked to testify about the mental health of homosexuals and the mental health effects of discrimination against homosexuals in Ireland, in Texas, in Maine, in front of Congress, and too many places to mention.
尽管如此，他还是被要求在爱尔兰、德克萨斯州、缅因州、国会以及太多地方就同性恋者的心理健康以及歧视同性恋者的心理健康影响作证。
He was asked because, in 1973, he happened to be president-elect of the American Psychiatric Association when the organization decided that homosexuality was not a mental disease.
他之所以被问到，是因为 1973 年，他恰巧当选美国精神病学协会主席，当时该组织认定同性恋不是一种精神疾病。
Up until that time, psychiatrists had always thought of homosexuality as a pathology-- a problem so profound it affected, as one psychiatrist told me, the total personality.
直到那时，精神病学家一直认为同性恋是一种病态——正如一位精神病学家告诉我的那样，这个问题是如此深刻，以至于影响到整个人格。
Now, because psychiatrists believed that homosexuals were pathological, it gave scientific sanction for the rest of the country to see it the same way.
现在，由于精神病学家认为同性恋是病态的，这为全国其他地区以同样的方式看待同性恋提供了科学依据。
Gays were routinely fired from teaching jobs, denied security clearances and US citizenship.
同性恋者经常被解雇、被剥夺安全许可和美国公民身份。
For that matter, they were barred from practicing psychiatry, because you don't let someone who's pathological practice medicine on other people who are pathological.
就此而言，他们被禁止从事精神病学，因为你不能让一个病态的人对其他病态的人行医。
Or anyway, that's what the psychiatrists thought.
或者无论如何，这就是精神科医生的想法。
That's what it said in the bible of their profession, what the psychiatrists called the DSM, or the Diagnostic and Statistics Manual, a book which listed in clear, clinical language every possible permutation of psychosis, every variant of paranoia, every deviant mental tick that the children of Freud had ever encountered, all nicely bound together under an industrial yellow cover with an authoritative OED staid font.
这就是他们的职业圣经中所说的内容，精神病学家称之为《DSM》或《诊断与统计手册》，这本书用清晰的临床语言列出了精神病的每一种可能的排列、偏执狂的每一种变体、弗洛伊德的孩子们遇到过的每一种异常的心理蜱虫，所有这些都很好地装订在工业黄色封面下，并采用权威的《牛津英语词典》古板字体。
There it was, diagnosis number 302.0, 3 sentences, composed of 81 words, which certified homosexuality as sick.
诊断号302.0，3句话，81个字，证明同性恋有病。
Do you look forward, Grandpa, to this engagement that you're going to have in Ireland?
爷爷，您期待您在爱尔兰的订婚吗？
Well, John, I have mixed feelings about it.
嗯，约翰，我对此有复杂的感觉。
It's going to be fun to spend a few days in Dublin.
在都柏林度过几天会很有趣。
But it's also kind of anxiety-making because the trial is going to be held in the high court, and I'm going to be cross-examined, which I don't particularly look forward to.
但这也让人感到焦虑，因为审判将在高等法院进行，我将接受盘问，对此我并不是特别期待。
If you have anxiety about doing it, Grandpa, then how come you're going?
爷爷，如果你对此感到焦虑，那么你为什么要去呢？
Well, you see, John, it isn't so often that a person has an opportunity to help to change the constitution of an entire nation.
嗯，你看，约翰，一个人有机会帮助改变整个国家的宪法并不常见。
To hear my family tell it, it was my grandfather alone who banished those 81 words from the DSM.
据我的家人说，是我祖父一个人把这 81 个词从 DSM 中删除了。
When I was young, the family legend was that my grandfather, president of the American Psychiatric Association, single-handedly changed the DSM because he was a big hearted visionary, a man unfettered by prejudice who worked on behalf of the downtrodden.
在我年轻的时候，家族传说是我的祖父，美国精神病学协会主席，一手改变了《精神疾病诊断统计手册》，因为他是一位胸怀远大的梦想家，一个不受偏见束缚、为受压迫者服务的人。
This story was wrong on two counts.
这个故事有两个错误。
A, my grandfather was not president of the American Psychiatric Association in 1973-- he was president-elect.
答，我的祖父在 1973 年并不是美国精神病学协会的主席——他是当选主席。
B, he didn't single-handedly change anything.
B，他没有凭一己之力改变任何事情。
But never mind, because this version of events was discarded, anyway-- discarded after the family went on vacation to the Bahamas to celebrate my grandfather's 70th birthday.
但没关系，因为这个版本的事件无论如何都被丢弃了——在全家去巴哈马度假庆祝我祖父的 70 岁生日之后就被丢弃了。
I remember it well, remember the plane, and the drive from the airport, and arriving and discovering that the hotel had a swimming pool installed about 50 feet away from the beach.
我记得很清楚，记得飞机、从机场开车到酒店后发现酒店在距离海滩约 50 英尺处设有一个游泳池。
I remember thinking that a pool so close to the water was both ridiculously decadent and somehow incredibly exciting.
我记得我当时想，一个离水这么近的游泳池既荒唐可笑，又令人难以置信地令人兴奋。
I also remember my grandfather stepping out of his beachfront bungalow on that first day, followed by a small, well-built man, a man that later, during dinner, my grandfather introduced to a shocked family as his lover, David.
我还记得我的祖父在第一天走出他的海滨平房，后面跟着一个身材矮小、体格健壮的男人，后来，我的祖父在晚餐时向震惊的家人介绍了这个男人，称他为他的情人大卫。
David was the first of a long line of very young men that my grandfather took up with after my grandmother's death.
大卫是我祖母去世后我祖父接纳的一长串年轻人中的第一个。
It turned out that my grandfather had had gay lovers throughout his life, had even told his wife-to-be that he was homosexual two weeks before their wedding.
原来，我的祖父一生都有同性恋情人，甚至在结婚前两周就告诉他的未婚妻他是同性恋。
And so, in 1981, the story that my family told about the definition in the DSM changed dramatically.
因此，1981 年，我的家人讲述的关于 DSM 定义的故事发生了巨大的变化。
My grandfather was no longer seen as a purely enlightened visionary, but as a closeted homosexual with a very particular agenda.
我的祖父不再被视为一个纯粹开明的幻想家，而是一个有着非常特殊议程的未出柜的同性恋者。
In actual fact, this version of the story also bears only a passing resemblance to the truth.
事实上，这个版本的故事也与事实有一点点相似。
The real story is, as I said, much more complicated.
正如我所说，真实的故事要复杂得多。
And though it ends in the same place as my family's version, with a world in which it's just a little bit easier for men like my grandfather to come out to their families and friends before they're, say, 70 years old, it's a story in which my grandfather really plays a pretty minor role.
虽然它的结局和我家人的版本一样，在这个世界里，像我祖父这样的男人在 70 岁之前向他们的家人和朋友出柜要容易一些，但在这个故事中，我的祖父确实扮演了一个相当小的角色。
Well, Grandpa, why don't you tell us a little bit about the past?
好吧，爷爷，你为什么不告诉我们一些过去的事呢？
Now, John, you know that that's an extremely broad area.
现在，约翰，你知道这是一个极其广泛的领域。
As an expert interviewer, you should know better than to ask me a question like that.
作为一名专家面试官，你应该更清楚不要问我这样的问题。
Would you mind making it more specific?
您介意说得更具体一些吗？
You're right, Grandpa.
你是对的，爷爷。
That was a very pertinent observation.
这是一个非常中肯的观察。
Why don't you begin talking about your past and pick up--
你为什么不开始谈论你的过去并开始——
Let's begin with a little background so the full meaning of what transpired can be properly understood.
让我们从一些背景开始，以便能够正确理解所发生事件的全部含义。
Throughout the '40s, '50s, and early '60s, the American Psychiatric Association was a very conservative place, an organization run by what were described to me by a former APA president as businessmen psychiatrists-- well-meaning, gray-haired, '50s-style professionals.
在整个 40 年代、50 年代和 60 年代初，美国精神病学协会是一个非常保守的地方，该组织的管理者是一位美国精神病学协会前主席向我描述的商业精神病学家——善意的、白发苍苍的 50 年代风格的专业人士。
Now, when the '60s arrived, these men weren't particularly interested in weighing in on the issues of the day-- on Kent State, or civil rights, Vietnam.
现在，当 60 年代到来时，这些人对参与当今的问题（肯特州立大学或民权问题、越南问题）不再特别感兴趣。
Then a relatively small group of homosexual activists started making noise about their designation in the DSM.
然后，一小群同性恋活动人士开始大声疾呼他们在 DSM 中的地位。
Specifically, the activists rejected the idea that they needed to be cured of their desire.
具体来说，活动人士拒绝接受他们需要治愈自己的欲望的想法。
They said that they only needed the stigma of insanity to be removed from homosexuality so that they could get jobs teaching children or practicing psychiatry-- basically, so that they could finally achieve equal rights.
他们说，他们只需要消除同性恋的精神错乱的耻辱，这样他们就可以找到儿童教育或从事精神病学的工作——基本上，这样他们才能最终实现平等权利。
Now at the time, these protests didn't make much of an impression on the doctors at the APA.
当时，这些抗议活动并没有给 APA 的医生留下太大的印象。
They saw themselves as scientists.
他们将自己视为科学家。
And scientifically, there was near universal agreement that homosexuals were at least one donut short of a dozen.
从科学角度来看，几乎所有人都认为同性恋者至少比一打甜甜圈少一个。
I spoke to 10 different psychiatrists who were members of the APA during the time of the redefinition, and I began each of my interviews with the same question-- what percentage of the APA believed that homosexuality was pathology in 1970 when this story begins?
在重新定义期间，我采访了 10 名属于 APA 成员的不同精神科医生，每次采访我都以同样的问题开始——1970 年故事开始时，APA 中有多少人认为同性恋是病态？
Oh, well over 90%.
噢，超过90%了。
Alix Spiegel In 1970?
1970 年的阿利克斯·斯皮格尔？
Oh, I think so.
哦，我想是的。
Sure.
当然。
John Fryer 95.
约翰·弗赖尔 95.
98.
98.
99, even the ones of us who were gay.
99，甚至我们这些同性恋者。
This is John Fryer.
这是约翰·弗莱尔。
John lives in Pennsylvania now in an aging Philadelphia mansion with two enormous dogs and rooms filled with elaborately scrolled furniture.
约翰现在住在宾夕法尼亚州费城一栋古老的豪宅里，家里有两只巨大的狗，房间里摆满了精心制作的卷轴家具。
This house is a very great distance, both psychologically and physically, from the Kentucky farm where John grew up.
这所房子无论在心理上还是在身体上都距离约翰长大的肯塔基州农场很远。
John graduated from his Kentucky high school when he was only 15 years old.
约翰年仅 15 岁就从肯塔基州高中毕业。
And by 19, he'd been accepted to Vanderbilt University Medical School.
19 岁时，他被范德比尔特大学医学院录取。
He was one of the youngest students to be trained in psychiatry in the school's history.
他是学校历史上接受精神病学培训的最年轻的学生之一。
He was also a homosexual.
他也是一名同性恋者。
Now, technically, it was forbidden for homosexuals to practice psychiatry, and John knew that.
现在，从技术上讲，同性恋者从事精神病学研究是被禁止的，约翰知道这一点。
He had, after all, read the literature.
毕竟，他读过文献。
He'd seen the research.
他看过这项研究。
And he had certainly sat through the lectures.
他确实听完了讲座。
So from the very beginning, I learned that it was pathology.
所以从一开始我就知道这是病态。
And it was very difficult to get over that.
克服这一点非常困难。
Difficult to get over, even years later, after he became a practicing psychiatrist.
即使在他成为一名执业精神科医生多年后，这也很难克服。
Difficult to get over, even after he joined the APA and met a number of other gay psychiatrists.
即使在他加入 APA 并结识了其他一些同性恋精神病学家之后，他仍然很难摆脱困境。
So many, in fact, that informally they began to meet each year during APA conventions-- a loose underground group which they jokingly titled the GAYPA.
事实上，他们开始每年在 APA 大会期间非正式地聚会——这是一个松散的地下组织，他们戏称其为 GAYPA。
These were men who, like John, had made it through medical school without detection and continued to hide their sexual preference, except to one another.
这些人像约翰一样，在未被发现的情况下从医学院毕业，并继续隐瞒自己的性取向，除了彼此之外。
These were men who, despite their association with the GAYPA, never thought to question, even among themselves, traditional psychiatric ideas about homosexuality.
这些人尽管与 GAYPA 有联系，但从未想过质疑关于同性恋的传统精神病学观念，甚至在他们自己之间也是如此。
Didn't come up, to my knowledge, because of our own internalized homophobia.
据我所知，之所以没有出现，是因为我们内心深处对同性恋的恐惧。
Most of us probably agreed that it was OK to be a disease.
我们大多数人可能都同意，成为一种疾病是可以接受的。
The idea that homosexuality was a form of insanity began in the 19th century.
同性恋是一种精神错乱的观念始于 19 世纪。
And at least at the time, its designation as a mental illness was actually seen by homosexuals as a step forward.
至少在当时，同性恋者将其指定为精神疾病实际上被视为向前迈出了一步。
For the previous 2000 or so years, the Christian world saw being gay as a crime against the will of God.
在过去的 2000 多年里，基督教世界将同性恋视为违背上帝意愿的犯罪行为。
The book of Leviticus declares, "If a man lies with another man, as he would a woman, both have committed an abomination.
利未记说：“若一个男人与另一个男人同房，正如他与女人同房一样，二人都犯了可憎之事。
They shall be put to death.
他们将被处死。
Their blood shall be upon them."
他们的血将归在他们身上。”
Then along came the head doctors and suddenly it wasn't the homosexual's fault.
然后首席医生出现了，突然间这不是同性恋者的错。
He was just another victim of faulty wiring, or possibly an overbearing mother.
他只是线路故障的另一个受害者，或者可能是一位专横的母亲。
The shrinks weren't sure exactly what the problem was, but there was research-- a whole bunch of research-- from Freud on down.
心理医生们并不确定问题到底是什么，但是有研究——从弗洛伊德开始的一大堆研究。
But by the late '60s when the status of homosexuals became an issue of public debate, the field was really dominated by two New York psychoanalysts.
但到了 60 年代末，当同性恋者的地位成为公众辩论的问题时，这个领域实际上由两位纽约精神分析师主导。
The first was a man named Charles Socarides.
第一个是查尔斯·索卡里德斯（Charles Socarides）。
I'll talk about him later.
我稍后再谈他。
The second was Dr. Irving Bieber, an analyst in New York who, at least originally, had no interest in the problem of homosexuality.
第二位是纽约的分析师欧文·比伯博士，他至少最初对同性恋问题不感兴趣。
Only became interested after he went to work as a psychiatrist in the Second World War.
他在第二次世界大战期间担任精神病医生后才开始感兴趣。
Irving Bieber is now deceased, but his wife, Dr. Toby Bieber, agreed to talk to me.
欧文·比伯现已去世，但他的妻子托比·比伯博士同意与我交谈。
They would arrest homosexuals in the army.
他们会在军队里逮捕同性恋者。
This was in India and in Egypt where he was in the CBI theater.
这是在印度和埃及，他在 CBI 剧院。
They would arrest them and discharge them dishonorably.
他们会逮捕他们并不光彩地解雇他们。
And the others would be hospitalized, something like that.
其他人会住院，类似的事情。
So he got interested in the problem because he would be the psychiatrist who would examine these people.
所以他对这个问题感兴趣，因为他将成为检查这些人的精神科医生。
Toby Bieber says that during the war her husband defended homosexuals-- protested whenever a gay soldier was arrested or discharged, arguing he deserved treatment, not dishonor.
托比·比伯说，在战争期间，她的丈夫为同性恋者辩护——每当同性恋士兵被逮捕或开除时，她都会抗议，认为他应该得到待遇，而不是耻辱。
He got into trouble-- actually, a bit-- in the army.
他在军队里遇到了麻烦——实际上，有一点麻烦。
My husband went in as a captain, and he came out after four years-- he was in the Army for four years-- he came out as a captain.
我丈夫进去时是一名上尉，四年后他就出来了——他在军队里呆了四年——他以上尉的身份出来了。
And he wasn't promoted, largely because of his defense of homosexuals in the army.
他没有得到晋升，很大程度上是因为他在军队中为同性恋者辩护。
So he saw himself as somebody who was helping homosexuals.
所以他认为自己是帮助同性恋者的人。
No question about it.
毫无疑问。
Alix Spiegel After the war, Dr. Bieber returned to the States and began research into the homosexual question in earnest.
战后，比伯博士回到美国，开始认真研究同性恋问题。
He assembled a crew of psychiatrists and undertook the single largest survey of homosexual behavior ever attempted.
他召集了一批精神科医生，对同性恋行为进行了有史以来最大规模的调查。
The project involved 77 doctors who contributed information on over 100 gay men and concluded that the cause of homosexuality was a combination of what they termed close-binding mothers, which is overprotective women who made their children weak and feminine, and detached, rejecting fathers.
该项目涉及 77 名医生，他们提供了 100 多名男同性恋者的信息，得出的结论是，同性恋的原因是他们所谓的“紧密束缚的母亲”的综合作用，即过度保护的女性，使她们的孩子变得软弱和女性化，以及冷漠、拒绝父亲。
The work was published in 1962 and immediately attracted the attention of the psychiatric world.
该著作于1962年出版，立即引起了精神病学界的关注。
It received the Hofheimer Award for original work.
它获得了霍夫海默原创作品奖。
It also attracted the attention of another very different group of people-- homosexual activists.
它还吸引了另一个截然不同的群体——同性恋活动家的注意。
A handful of homosexual organizations had begun in the early '50s and had grown slowly, both learning from and, in some ways, shadowing the progress of the civil rights and feminist movements.
少数同性恋组织成立于 50 年代初，发展缓慢，既向民权和女权运动学习，又在某种程度上影响了民权和女权运动的进步。
From its earliest days, one of the main goals of the gay groups, alongside civil rights, which was really number one, was removal from the DSM.
从成立之初起，同性恋团体的主要目标之一就是将民权从 DSM 中移除，而民权确实是第一位的。
So naturally, Bieber's study, which billed itself as definitive proof that homosexuality was a pathology, kind of rubbed them the wrong way.
很自然地，比伯的研究自称是同性恋是一种病态的明确证据，但却惹恼了他们。
In 1970, the American Psychiatric Association made the mistake of holding its annual convention in San Francisco, which then, as now, had a large gay community.
1970 年，美国精神病学协会犯了一个错误，在旧金山举行了年度大会，当时的旧金山和现在一样，拥有一个庞大的同性恋社区。
And the gay activists decided to protest.
同性恋活动人士决定抗议。
Irving Bieber was their very first target.
欧文·比伯是他们的第一个目标。
The Washington Post, May 14th, 1970-- The gay liberation and the women allies out-shrinked the head shrinkers today and took over an American Psychiatric Association session on sex.
《华盛顿邮报》，1970 年 5 月 14 日——今天，同性恋解放运动和女性盟友战胜了头部缩小者，并接管了美国精神病学协会关于性的会议。
Before the morning was over, the 500 psychiatrists who gathered to hear scientific studies on sexual problems demonstrated that they're just as prone to anti-social behavior as anyone else.
上午结束前，500 名精神科医生聚集在一起聆听有关性问题的科学研究，结果表明，他们和其他人一样容易出现反社会行为。
"This lack of discipline is disgusting," said Dr. Leo Alexander, a psychiatrist at the meeting.
“这种缺乏纪律的行为令人厌恶，”参加会议的精神科医生利奥·亚历山大博士说。
Then he diagnosed the problem of one of the lesbian protesters.
然后他诊断出了一名女同性恋抗议者的问题。
"She's a paranoid fool," the doctor said, "and a stupid bitch."
“她是一个偏执的傻瓜，”医生说，“也是一个愚蠢的母狗。”
As I recall, there were evidently closeted gay and lesbian people who were inside the APA who kind of wanted something to happen.
我记得，APA 内显然有一些未出柜的同性恋者希望发生一些事情。
And I think they just passed along information to us.
我认为他们只是向我们传递了信息。
And somebody got us press passes, I guess, so that we could get through the front door.
我猜有人给了我们记者通行证，这样我们就可以从前门进去了。
This is Gary Allender, one of the gay activists who infiltrated the APA convention.
这是加里·阿伦德 (Gary Allender)，渗透到 APA 大会的同性恋活动家之一。
He says that while one group of activists stormed a session on behavioral therapy, another combed the halls, looking for Bieber.
他说，当一组活动人士冲进行为治疗会议时，另一组活动人士则在大厅里搜寻比伯。
They found him at a panel on transsexuals and homosexuality.
他们在一个关于变性人和同性恋的小组中发现了他。
Bieber, who was sitting in the front of the room, had just settled in for a nice long chat about close-binding mothers when, according to his wife, Toby, there was a loud noise from outside the auditorium.
比伯坐在房间前面，刚刚坐下来与亲密母亲进行了一场愉快的长谈，据他的妻子托比说，礼堂外传来了一声巨响。
And a group came storming in, dressed rather fantastically with feathers in their hats, as though they were going to attend some costume ball, making noise and broke up the meeting.
一群人冲进来，穿着奇特，帽子上插着羽毛，好像他们要去参加什么化装舞会，制造了噪音并驱散了会议。
They broke it up.
他们把它拆散了。
We were not polite.
我们没有礼貌。
We were not quiet.
我们并不安静。
We were not asking for favors.
我们并不是在寻求帮助。
We were just trying to delegitimize their authority.
我们只是想剥夺他们的权威。
And we felt that they were oppressing us.
我们觉得他们在压迫我们。
And here was finally a chance to talk back to them.
现在终于有机会和他们顶嘴了。
The protesters yelled at the psychiatrists.
抗议者对精神科医生大喊大叫。
They called them sadists.
他们称他们为虐待狂。
They called them oppressors.
他们称他们为压迫者。
But the protesters had an entirely different word for Irving Bieber, a word which, in the accounts that circulated after the event, got a disproportionate amount of attention.
但抗议者对欧文·比伯有一个完全不同的词，在事件发生后流传的报道中，这个词引起了不成比例的关注。
To the protesters, Dr. Bieber was not just your run of the mill sadist oppressor.
对于抗议者来说，比伯博士不仅仅是普通的虐待狂压迫者。
No, sir.
不，先生。
Irving Bieber was a mother [BLEEP].
欧文·比伯是一位母亲[BLEEP]。
This is not how you conduct a discourse, if you want to disagree with the people.
如果你想不同意别人的观点，这不是你进行演讲的方式。
Certainly, Darwin wasn't-- not that I'm comparing my husband to Darwin.
当然，达尔文不是——我并不是在将我的丈夫与达尔文进行比较。
But his work wasn't accepted either, but nobody called him a mother [BLEEP].
但他的作品也没有被接受，但没有人称他为母亲[BLEEP]。
By all accounts, this episode greatly disturbed and hurt Irving Bieber.
众所周知，这一事件极大地困扰和伤害了欧文·比伯。
Like most psychiatrists at the APA, he saw himself as someone who was helping, someone who had devoted his life to helping.
和 APA 的大多数精神科医生一样，他认为自己是一个乐于助人的人，一个毕生致力于帮助他人的人。
All of us did.
我们所有人都这么做了。
All of us felt the same way.
我们所有人都有同样的感觉。
Which was how?
哪个是怎么样的？
Charles Socarides It was dismal to be accused of something that you're innocent of.
查尔斯·索卡里德斯 (Charles Socarides) 因一些无辜的事情而受到指控，这真是令人沮丧。
This is Charles Socarides.
我是查尔斯·索卡里德斯。
Like Bieber, Socarides was one of the most lauded psychoanalysts in the profession-- a man who claims to have treated over 75 homosexuals in analysis and consulted with literally 1,000 more.
和比伯一样，索卡里德斯也是业内最受赞誉的精神分析师之一，他声称自己对超过 75 名同性恋者进行了分析治疗，并为另外 1,000 名同性恋者提供了咨询。
Invariably, the goal of therapy with Socarides was to cure homosexual desire, to transform the patient into a heterosexual through analysis.
Socarides 治疗的目标始终是治愈同性恋欲望，通过分析将患者转变为异性恋。
At the time, this was common practice.
当时，这是常见的做法。
There were all kinds of methods, from traditional talking treatment, to hormonal enhancement, to aversion therapy where patients were attached to electric shock machines, given gay pornography, and zapped if they demonstrated any kind of arousal.
有各种各样的方法，从传统的谈话治疗，到荷尔蒙增强，再到厌恶疗法，在厌恶疗法中，患者被连接到电击机上，被给予同性恋色情内容，如果他们表现出任何形式的兴奋，就会被电击。
Needless to say, the gay activists considered this treatment, even this goal, barbaric and sadistic-- an accusation which simply didn't make sense to Socarides.
不用说，同性恋活动人士认为这种待遇，甚至这个目标，都是野蛮和施虐的——这种指控对索卡里德斯来说根本没有意义。
We only treat people who come to us, seek our help, and beg for our help.
我们只对待那些来找我们、寻求我们帮助、乞求我们帮助的人。
And we treat them with dignity, and with tact, and with loyalty, the same way we'd treat any other patient.
我们以尊严、机智和忠诚的态度对待他们，就像我们对待其他病人一样。
So in the first place, to say, you are harming the homosexual was untrue.
所以首先，说你正在伤害同性恋者是不真实的。
They even brought up that there are more suicides of people in treatment.
他们甚至提到，接受治疗的人自杀人数有所增加。
That's not true.
那不是真的。
But it wasn't just Socarides and Bieber who were uncomfortable with the accusations and demands of the gay activists.
但不仅仅是索卡里德斯和比伯对同性恋活动人士的指控和要求感到不安。
Most of the closeted psychiatrists of the GAYPA, like John Fryer, the gay psychiatrist you heard from earlier, were also disturbed.
大多数未公开的 GAYPA 精神科医生，比如你之前听说过的同性恋精神科医生约翰·弗赖尔 (John Fryer)，也感到不安。
I frankly, at the beginning, remember the sense that I was embarrassed by it and that I wished they'd shut up.
坦率地说，一开始我记得我对此感到尴尬，希望他们闭嘴。
None of us were there.
我们没有人在那里。
None of the GAYPA were?
没有一个 GAYPA 是吗？
John Fryer No. And I would say that all of us avoided that whole thing.
约翰·弗莱尔 不。我想说的是，我们所有人都避免了这整件事。
It's not that they wanted to be seen as sick, it's just that they knew their colleagues-- or, anyway, they thought they knew their colleagues-- and believed that the psychiatrists of the APA would never change the definition.
这并不是说他们想被视为有病，只是他们了解自己的同事——或者无论如何，他们认为自己了解自己的同事——并且相信 APA 的精神病学家永远不会改变定义。
Most of us didn't think this would happen.
我们大多数人都没有想到这会发生。
Right.
正确的。
John Fryer And I thought that it was just a fool's errand.
约翰·弗莱尔：我认为这只是一个愚蠢的差事。
What John didn't fully appreciate was that there were forces at work, forces at work deep inside the APA.
约翰没有完全意识到的是，有一些力量在起作用，APA 内部深处的力量在起作用。
They met at our house.
他们在我们家见面。
And that's how I came to know them and to know what they were trying to achieve.
这就是我认识他们并了解他们想要实现的目标的方式。
This is Adam Spiegel, better known to this reporter, at least, as Dad.
这是亚当·斯皮格尔（Adam Spiegel），记者更熟悉他，至少是“爸爸”。
Adam Spiegel / Dad grew up with John P.
亚当·斯皮格尔 / 爸爸和约翰·P·斯皮格尔一起长大。
Spiegel / Grandpa in a boxy Victorian off Brattle Street in Cambridge, Massachusetts.
斯皮格尔 / 爷爷在马萨诸塞州剑桥布拉特尔街附近的一辆四四方方的维多利亚式汽车中。
By the early 70s, Dad had moved out of this house to his own house in Baltimore, Maryland.
到了 70 年代初，爸爸搬出了这所房子，搬到了他自己位于马里兰州巴尔的摩的房子。
But he still came back regularly for holidays.
但他仍然定期回来度假。
And often during these visits, he would find gathered around the kitchen table of his childhood home a group of men that my Aunt Mamie dubbed the "Young Turks."
在这些访问期间，他经常会发现他童年家里的厨房桌子周围聚集着一群人，我的姨妈玛米称他们为“年轻的土耳其人”。
The Young Turks were all psychiatrists, all members of the APA, and all liberal-minded Easterners who had decided to reform the American Psychiatric Association from the inside.
青年土耳其党都是精神病学家，都是美国精神病学协会的成员，都是思想开明的东方人，他们决定从内部改革美国精神病学协会。
Specifically, they had decided to replace all the gray-haired conservatives who ran the organization with a new breed of psychiatrist, more sensitive to the social issues of the day, with liberal opinions on Kent State, Vietnam, feminism.
具体来说，他们决定用新一代精神科医生取代管理该组织的所有白发保守派，对当今的社会问题更加敏感，对肯特州立、越南和女权主义持自由主义观点。
They figured that once they got this new breed into office, they could fundamentally transform American psychiatry.
他们认为，一旦让这个新品种上台，他们就可以从根本上改变美国精神病学。
And one of the things this group was keen to transform was American psychiatry's approach to homosexuality.
这个团体热衷于改变的事情之一是美国精神病学对同性恋的态度。
And so they gathered around my grandfather's kitchen table, over the delicate graven flowers of my grandmother's china, they'd discuss offenses and defenses-- map strategy.
于是他们聚集在我祖父的厨房餐桌旁，在我祖母瓷器上精致的雕刻花朵上，讨论进攻和防守——地图策略。
The meetings, I thought, were all in great, good spirits.
我认为，会议气氛非常好。
They all sat around rollicking with laughter about what they were planning to do.
他们都围坐在一起，欢声笑语，谈论着自己计划要做的事情。
And they were serious, but they were also able to take a look at themselves.
他们很严肃，但他们也能够审视自己。
And it was just a small kind of cohort group that seized the moment to put across a huge-- what?
这只是一小群人抓住时机，制造了一个巨大的——什么？
Something on the 18,000 American shrinks of the APA.
18,000 名美国心理医生的 APA 中的一些内容。
As active members in an APA subcommittee, called the Committee for Concerned Psychiatry, the Young Turks proposed candidates for office, politicked for internal change.
作为 APA 小组委员会（称为关注精神病学委员会）的活跃成员，青年土耳其党提出了公职候选人，为内部变革进行政治宣传。
Now, I should point out that the group that gathered around my grandfather's kitchen table, and really around kitchen tables all over the East Coast, was not by any stretch of the imagination a homosexual cabal.
现在，我应该指出，聚集在我祖父的厨房桌子周围，实际上是整个东海岸的厨房桌子周围的团体，无论如何都不是同性恋阴谋集团。
But several of the key players were gay-- people like Dr. Larry Hartmann, who was a founding member of the Committee for Concerned Psychiatry, and later, like my grandfather, became president of the APA.
但其中有几位关键人物是同性恋——比如拉里·哈特曼博士，他是关注精神病学委员会的创始成员，后来像我的祖父一样，成为了 APA 的主席。
Of course, none of these men were out at the time.
当然，当时这些人都没有出去。
They weren't even members of the GAYPA.
他们甚至不是 GAYPA 的成员。
They were too buried-- buried even to friends and family.
他们太被埋葬了——甚至被朋友和家人埋葬了。
Adam Spiegel.
亚当·斯皮格尔.
It was not clear to me.
我不清楚。
In fact, when I learned that Larry was gay, I almost fell out of my chair because he was so not gay in his affect-- impossible to discern.
事实上，当我得知拉里是同性恋时，我差点从椅子上摔下来，因为他的情感根本不是同性恋——无法辨别。
Although the gay activists who were protesting the APA from the outside didn't know it, it was this group of men, these Young Turks and their allies, who laid the groundwork for the change in the DSM.
尽管那些从外部抗议 APA 的同性恋活动人士并不知道，但正是这群人、这些青年土耳其党人和他们的盟友，为 DSM 的变革奠定了基础。
Without moving liberal-minded psychiatrists into positions of power in the APA, without changing the organization's internal infrastructure, there would have been an immediate veto of any attempt to change those extremely troublesome 81 words.
如果不让思想开明的精神病学家在 APA 中掌权，不改变该组织的内部基础设施，任何改变这些极其麻烦的 81 个词的尝试都会立即被否决。
Coming up, the scientific evidence that homosexuals might not be sick and how a party in a Hawaiian bar can change everything.
接下来，我们将介绍同性恋者可能不会生病的科学证据，以及夏威夷酒吧的派对如何改变一切。
Alix Spiegel's story continues in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续时，芝加哥公共广播电台将继续讲述阿利克斯·斯皮格尔的故事。
This American Life.
这美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today, we're devoting our whole program to the story of how and why the American Psychiatric Association decided, in 1973, that homosexuality is not a disease.
今天，我们的整个节目致力于讲述美国精神病学协会如何以及为何在 1973 年决定同性恋不是一种疾病。
This weekend in December is the 45th anniversary of that milestone.
12 月的这个周末是这一里程碑的 45 周年纪念日。
Today's program was first broadcast back when way more of the people involved in this story were still alive, back in 2002.
今天的节目首次播出是在 2002 年，当时参与这个故事的更多人还活着。
Alix Spiegel continues her story.
阿利克斯·斯皮格尔继续她的故事。
Alix Spiegel While the Young Turks worked from the inside, the gay activists continued their assault from the outside.
阿利克斯·斯皮格尔 当青年土耳其党从内部开展工作时，同性恋活动人士则继续从外部进行攻击。
They showed up at the American Psychiatric Association convention again in 1971, broke into the auditorium through a stage door during the opening ceremony, and stormed the podium.
1971年，他们再次出现在美国精神病学协会大会上，在开幕式上从舞台门闯入礼堂，并冲上讲台。
But it wasn't until the next year, at the '72 convention, that the gay activists hit upon a piece of political theater so outlandish that it actually managed to shake the dinosaurs at the APA.
但直到第二年，在 72 年大会上，同性恋活动人士才偶然发现了一个如此古怪的政治戏剧，它实际上成功地震撼了 APA 的恐龙。
The spectacle was organized by Barbara Gittings, a librarian turned lesbian activist, who decided that it was time for the psychiatrists to hear from one of their own-- to hear from someone like John Fryer.
这一奇观是由芭芭拉·吉廷斯（Barbara Gittings）组织的，她是一名图书管理员，后来成为女同性恋活动家，她认为精神科医生是时候听听他们自己的声音了——听听像约翰·弗赖尔（John Fryer）这样的人的声音。
I got a call from Barbara Gittings about November of '71.
71 年 11 月左右，我接到芭芭拉·吉廷斯 (Barbara Gittings) 的电话。
She said, John, I'm looking for a psychiatrist to come and testify, a gay psychiatrist, to testify what it is like to be a good psychiatrist.
她说，约翰，我正在寻找一位精神科医生来作证，一位同性恋精神科医生，来证明成为一名优秀的精神科医生是什么样的。
The call from Barbara Gittings came at a particularly awkward moment in the life of John Fryer.
芭芭拉·吉廷斯打来的电话是在约翰·弗赖尔一生中一个特别尴尬的时刻打来的。
He had recently been dismissed from his position as a resident in psychiatry at the University of Pennsylvania because his boss suspected he was gay.
他最近被宾夕法尼亚大学精神病学住院医师职位解雇，因为他的老板怀疑他是同性恋。
He was fired from another hospital in Philadelphia for the same reason.
由于同样的原因，他被费城的另一家医院解雇。
John had applied for other positions and professorships at a variety of universities, but the rumors of his sexual preference followed him, and so he was turned away.
约翰曾申请过多所大学的其他职位和教授职位，但有关他性取向的谣言随之而来，因此他被拒绝了。
More than anything, John wanted to teach.
最重要的是，约翰想教书。
And he definitely didn't want to do anything that might jeopardize his ability to get a faculty position.
他绝对不想做任何可能危及他获得教职的事情。
My first reaction was, no way.
我的第一反应是，不可能。
But she planted in my mind the possibility that I could do something and that I could do something that would be helpful, without ruining my career.
但她在我的脑海中植入了这样的可能性：我可以做一些事情，而且我可以做一些有用的事情，而不会毁掉我的职业生涯。
John told Barbara to find someone else.
约翰告诉芭芭拉去找其他人。
But four months later, Barbara called back.
但四个月后，芭芭拉回电了。
She had tried, she said, to find another gay psychiatrist, but no one would take the chance.
她说，她曾尝试寻找另一位同性恋精神病医生，但没有人愿意冒险。
And so, Barbara Gittings offered John Fryer a compromise.
因此，芭芭拉·吉廷斯向约翰·弗莱尔提出了一个妥协方案。
They-- she and John-- would create an alternate personality, a disguise so fantastical that John's own mother wouldn't know him if he sat in her lap.
他们——她和约翰——将创造出另一种人格，一种如此奇特的伪装，以至于如果约翰坐在她的腿上，他自己的母亲也认不出他。
They would call this creation Dr. Anonymous.
他们将这个创造物称为“无名博士”。
And as Dr. Anonymous, John would address the members of the APA at the '72 convention in Dallas.
作为匿名博士，约翰将在达拉斯举行的 72 年大会上向 APA 成员发表讲话。
He would be given a hotel room to change in and a microphone to disguise his voice.
他会得到一个酒店房间来换衣服，还有一个麦克风来掩饰他的声音。
All his expenses would be paid for.
他所有的开支都会被支付。
John told Barbara he would do it, then he called a friend.
约翰告诉芭芭拉他会这么做，然后他给朋友打电话。
My friend, who was in drama, and I talked about what would be the most effective disguise.
我在戏剧中的朋友和我讨论了什么是最有效的伪装。
And you may or may not know this, but if you wear clothes that are much too large for you, you look much smaller than you are.
你可能知道也可能不知道这一点，但如果你穿的衣服对你来说太大了，你看起来就会比实际身材小得多。
So we made arrangements to rent a large and very flamboyant tuxedo.
所以我们安排租了一件大而华丽的燕尾服。
We then decided that the best way to do my head was an over the head rubber mask.
然后我们决定，最好的头部治疗方法是戴上橡胶面罩。
It was a Nixon mask that we distorted, so that you couldn't even see it was Nixon.
这是尼克松的面具，我们扭曲了，所以你甚至看不出它是尼克松。
And so, in May of 1972, standing on stage in front of an audience of his peers in a wig, a Nixon mask, and a multicolored tuxedo three times his size, John Fryer made his case against 81 words.
因此，1972 年 5 月，约翰·弗赖尔 (John Fryer) 戴着假发、戴着尼克松面具，穿着三倍于他体型的彩色燕尾服，站在舞台上，在同辈观众面前，用 81 个词阐述了自己的观点。
He explained to his fellow psychiatrists how these words had harmed him and others like him.
他向他的精神科医生同事解释了这些话如何伤害了他和其他像他一样的人。
As he did this, he glanced occasionally at a man sitting just a few feet away from him in the front row.
当他这样做的时候，他偶尔会瞥一眼坐在前排距离他几英尺远的一个男人。
It was the man who had fired John from his hospital position several years before.
正是这个人几年前将约翰从医院的职位上解雇了。
I received a standing ovation.
我受到了全场起立鼓掌。
And I felt-- I felt very empowered at that moment.
我觉得——那一刻我感到非常有力量。
It was around this time, fall of 1972, that the Young Turks saw the first fruits of their labor.
大约在这个时候，即 1972 年秋天，青年土耳其党看到了他们的第一批劳动成果。
One of their candidates for office, a man named Alfred Freedman, was elected president of the APA.
他们的一位公职候选人阿尔弗雷德·弗里德曼 (Alfred Freedman) 当选为 APA 主席。
My grandfather, John Spiegel, was installed on the board of trustees.
我的祖父约翰·斯皮格尔 (John Spiegel) 被任命为董事会成员。
And another man, Judd Marmor, one of my grandfather's best friends and an outspoken critic of the idea that homosexuality should be categorized as a disease, was selected as vice president.
另一位男子贾德·马莫尔（Judd Marmor）被选为副总统，他是我祖父最好的朋友之一，也是对同性恋应被归类为一种疾病的观点的直言不讳的批评者。
This turn of events was naturally distressing to the opponents of the change, Irving Bieber and his friend, Dr. Charles Socarides.
这一事件的转变自然让变革的反对者欧文·比伯和他的朋友查尔斯·索卡里德斯博士感到痛苦。
I know.
我知道。
I talked to the outgoing president at the time.
我与当时即将卸任的总统进行了交谈。
He shook his head.
他摇摇头。
He said, I don't know what's going to happen now.
他说，我不知道现在会发生什么。
They've got gays galore.
他们有很多同性恋。
They're running for office.
他们正在竞选公职。
One of them may be president.
其中之一可能是总统。
Suddenly, Bieber and Socarides found themselves in a position that, just two years before, they could not have conjured in their most outlandish nightmares.
突然，比伯和索卡里德斯发现自己处于两年前他们在最离奇的噩梦中无法想象的境地。
They were becoming professional renegades.
他们正在成为职业叛徒。
And the work that established their reputations was under fire.
而那些为他们奠定声誉的作品却遭到了批评。
Again, Charles Socarides.
又是查尔斯·索卡里德斯。
Papers that we wanted to give at various places, it was suddenly said, well, we don't think that would be a good thing to do right now in the current environment and the atmosphere.
我们想在各个地方发表论文，突然有人说，嗯，我们认为在目前的环境和氛围下，这不是一件好事。
It wasn't just professional rejection.
这不仅仅是职业上的拒绝。
Personally, Bieber and Socarides had become targets.
就我个人而言，比伯和索卡里德斯已经成为目标。
Angry gay activists followed them around, protesting every paper.
愤怒的同性恋活动人士跟随他们，抗议每一份报纸。
There were threatening phone calls late at night and obscene messages scratched into the paint of department bathroom stalls.
深夜里经常有人接到威胁电话，部门卫生间隔间的油漆上还写着猥亵的信息。
All kinds of things-- that you're killing the gay men, that you're persecuting us, you ought to be dead.
各种各样的事情——你在杀害同性恋者，你在迫害我们，你应该死。
I mean, things like that-- all kinds of death threats.
我的意思是，诸如此类的事情——各种死亡威胁。
I went to Kansas City one day, Topeka.
有一天我去了堪萨斯城托皮卡。
And one of my friends said I have a gift for you.
我的一位朋友说我有一份礼物给你。
And so he gave me a package.
于是他给了我一个包裹。
It was a gun.
那是一把枪。
He says, Charles-- he says, you're really going to have to defend yourself.
他说，查尔斯——他说，你真的必须为自己辩护。
Of course, I never used it, but you felt like carrying it around as people followed you to a meeting and raising terrible threat calls.
当然，我从未使用过它，但当人们跟着你去开会并发出可怕的威胁电话时，你会想随身携带它。
Socarides never took the professional criticism of his work seriously.
索卡里德斯从来没有认真对待过对他作品的专业批评。
A true believer in the psychoanalytic method, Socarides felt his research was sound and that he was, as he told me, doing God's work.
作为精神分析方法的忠实信徒，索卡里德斯认为他的研究是合理的，正如他告诉我的那样，他正在做上帝的工作。
My views were the most solid clinical and theoretical studies on homosexuality, describing its origin, its course, its therapy, its symptoms.
我的观点是对同性恋最可靠的临床和理论研究，描述了它的起源、它的过程、它的治疗、它的症状。
Most of the guys had never seen a homosexual.
大多数人从未见过同性恋。
They'd never dealt with his unconscious material, or his dream material, or his transference.
他们从来没有处理过他的无意识材料，或者他的梦境材料，或者他的移情。
They don't know what goes on in the mind of a homosexual.
他们不知道同性恋者的脑子里在想什么。
All they see is the homosexual, who appears quite normal.
他们看到的都是同性恋，看起来很正常。
But underneath, they don't know the dynamics and the meaning of his inability to approach a woman-- the pathology behind it.
但在内心深处，他们不知道他无法接近女人的动力和意义——背后的病态。
Now, we need to take a moment to talk about the science.
现在，我们需要花点时间谈谈科学。
As I've said, for most of its history, psychiatry took for granted the idea that homosexuality was a pathology-- a grave distortion of normal development which demanded some kind of explanation.
正如我所说，在其历史的大部分时间里，精神病学理所当然地认为同性恋是一种病理学——正常发展的严重扭曲，需要某种解释。
The question that concerned the psychiatrists then was what exactly had gone wrong with these people?
当时精神科医生关心的问题是这些人到底出了什么问题？
Was it the mother?
是母亲吗？
Was it the father?
是父亲吗？
Was it frustration in the Oedipal phase?
是恋母情结阶段的挫败感吗？
Or simply an excessive preoccupation with one's own genitalia?
或者只是过度关注自己的生殖器？
A lot of very intelligent men with years of university education and walls full of calligraphy certificates spent countless hours trying to pin down exactly who or what was to blame, which was pretty much the state of affairs until Evelyn Hooker met Sam Fromm.
许多非常聪明的人接受了多年的大学教育，墙上挂满了书法证书，花了无数的时间试图确定到底是谁或什么应该受到责备，这几乎就是伊芙琳·胡克遇到萨姆·弗洛姆之前的情况。
Evelyn was a psychologist at UCLA, and Sam was her student.
伊芙琳是加州大学洛杉矶分校的心理学家，萨姆是她的学生。
He's also a homosexual.
他也是一名同性恋者。
They started spending time together in the mid-40s.
他们在 40 多岁中期开始在一起度过时光。
And Sam introduced everyone to his group of friends, most of whom, like Sam, are gay.
山姆向大家介绍了他的一群朋友，其中大多数像山姆一样是同性恋。
Now, as I said, everyone in this particular group was homosexual, but curiously, none in the group was in therapy.
现在，正如我所说，这个特定群体中的每个人都是同性恋，但奇怪的是，这个群体中没有人接受治疗。
They were all very well-adjusted young men who utterly failed to conform to the traditional psychiatric image of the tortured, disturbed homosexual.
他们都是适应能力很强的年轻人，完全不符合传统精神病学中饱受折磨、精神错乱的同性恋形象。
This naturally got Evelyn thinking.
这自然引起了伊芙琳的思考。
Now, prior to Evelyn Hooker, all of the research in homosexuality-- all of it-- was done on people who were already under serious psychiatric treatment.
现在，在伊芙琳·胡克之前，所有关于同性恋的研究——所有的——都是在已经接受严重精神治疗的人身上进行的。
Let me repeat that.
让我重复一遍。
In the history of psychiatric research, no one had ever conducted a study on a homosexual population that wasn't either in therapy, or prison, a mental hospital, or the disciplinary barracks of the armed services.
在精神病学研究的历史上，没有人对不在接受治疗、不在监狱、精神病院或军队纪律军营中的同性恋人群进行过研究。
Evelyn thought about this and decided that this kind of research was distorting psychiatry's conclusions about homosexual populations.
伊芙琳思考了这一点，并认为这种研究歪曲了精神病学关于同性恋群体的结论。
To test her theory, Evelyn came up with an experiment.
为了验证她的理论，伊芙琳想出了一个实验。
Through her former student, she located 30 homosexuals who had never sought therapy in their lives and matched those homosexuals with a group of heterosexuals of comparable age, IQ, and education.
通过她以前的学生，她找到了 30 名从未寻求过治疗的同性恋者，并将这些同性恋者与一组年龄、智商和教育程度相当的异性恋者进行匹配。
Evelyn then put both groups through a battery of psychological tests, including a Rorschach test-- the famous inkblot test.
伊芙琳随后让两组人接受了一系列心理测试，包括罗夏墨迹测试——著名的墨迹测试。
After disguising her subjects, Evelyn gave the results to three experienced psychiatrists and asked them to identify the homosexuals.
在伪装了她的受试者后，伊芙琳将结果交给了三位经验丰富的精神科医生，并要求他们识别同性恋者。
She figured that if homosexuals were inherently pathological, the psychiatrists would be able to pick them out easily.
她认为，如果同性恋者本质上是病态的，那么精神科医生就能很容易地把他们找出来。
But the judges were completely unable to distinguish the homos from the hets.
但评委们完全无法区分同性恋和异性恋。
Equally important was the fact that the judges categorized 2/3 of both the homosexuals and the heterosexuals as perfectly well-adjusted, normally functioning human beings.
同样重要的是，法官将 2/3 的同性恋者和异性恋者归类为完全适应良好、功能正常的人类。
Hooker's study challenged the idea that homosexuality was a pathology in the first place.
胡克的研究首先挑战了同性恋是一种病态的观点。
And in doing this, it not only called into question an entire generation of research on homosexuality, it also challenged psychiatry's basic concept of disease.
这样做不仅对整整一代同性恋研究提出了质疑，也挑战了精神病学的疾病基本概念。
If you believed Hooker's data, then the only conclusion you could come to was that psychiatry was declaring certain behaviors were diseases not out of any sort of scientific proof, but based on their own prejudices.
如果你相信胡克的数据，那么你能得出的唯一结论就是，精神病学宣称某些行为是疾病，并不是出于任何科学证据，而是基于他们自己的偏见。
This was something that psychiatrists had been accused of before, most famously by a psychoanalyst named Thomas Szasz, who argued in the 1950s and '60s that certain dangerous psychiatric treatments, like electroshock therapy, were prescribed with no scientific basis and that psychiatrists were essentially in the business of enforcing social norms.
精神科医生以前也曾受到过这样的指控，最著名的是一位名叫托马斯·萨兹的精神分析师，他在 20 世纪 50 年代和 60 年代提出，某些危险的精神治疗方法，如电击疗法，是没有科学依据的，而精神科医生本质上是在执行社会规范。
But Szasz didn't provide the gay activists any hard data to use in their fight with the psychiatrists.
但萨斯没有向同性恋活动人士提供任何硬数据，以供他们与精神病学家斗争。
Aside from Hooker, the most useful scientific studies supporting their side was Alfred Kinsey's famous 1948 sex survey, which found that a whopping 37% of all men had had physical contact to the point of orgasm with other men, a finding which, besides shocking the hell out of 63% of the American public, seemed to suggest that homosexual acts were too common to be considered a disease.
除了胡克之外，支持他们这一观点的最有用的科学研究是阿尔弗雷德·金赛 (Alfred Kinsey) 著名的 1948 年性调查，该调查发现，高达 37% 的男性曾与其他男性进行过身体接触达到性高潮，这一发现除了让 63% 的美国公众感到震惊之外，似乎还表明同性恋行为太普遍了，不应该被视为一种疾病。
In spite of all this work, psychiatry continued to maintain that the homos were sick and steadfastly refused to re-evaluate the DSM.
尽管做了所有这些工作，精神病学仍然坚持认为同性恋者有病，并坚决拒绝重新评估 DSM。
And then luck, or maybe fate, intervened, intervened in the form of a chance meeting between a gay activist on the outside and an open-minded insider.
然后运气，或者也许是命运，介入了，以一个局外的同性恋活动家和一个思想开放的内部人士偶然相遇的形式介入。
That open-minded insider?
那个思想开放的内部人士？
Dr. Robert L.
罗伯特·L.博士
Spitzer.
斯皮策。
My view was no different, I think, from the standard view.
我认为我的观点与标准观点没有什么不同。
I totally accepted it.
我完全接受了。
Totally accepted what?
完全接受什么？
Robert L.
罗伯特·L。
Spitzer The idea that homosexuality was an illness.
斯皮策认为同性恋是一种疾病。
In the fall of 1972, Robert Spitzer was only loosely aware of the controversy.
1972 年秋天，罗伯特·斯皮策 (Robert Spitzer) 对这场争议只是大致了解。
He knew about the protests, he knew about Dr. Anonymous, of course, Socarides and Bieber, but he hadn't really taken a professional interest in the issue.
他知道抗议活动，他知道无名氏博士，当然，还有索卡里德斯和比伯，但他并没有真正对这个问题产生专业兴趣。
At the time, Robert Spitzer was a relatively young, but very ambitious man, and most importantly, at least to this story, a junior member of the APA's Committee on Nomenclature.
当时，罗伯特·斯皮策是一个相对年轻但非常雄心勃勃的人，最重要的是，至少在这个故事中，他是 APA 命名委员会的初级成员。
For those of you who didn't spend four years in medical school, the Committee on Nomenclature is the group which decides which mental disorders will appear in the DSM.
对于那些没有在医学院学习四年的人来说，命名委员会是决定哪些精神障碍将出现在 DSM 中的小组。
In other words, these were the people who actually decided what was and what was not a mental illness-- the people with the most direct, unmediated control over those extremely troublesome 81 words.
换句话说，这些人才是真正决定什么是精神疾病、什么不是精神疾病的人——他们对那些极其麻烦的 81 个词拥有最直接、最直接的控制权。
If Robert Spitzer chose to get involved, he would have been in a great position to help the activists.
如果罗伯特·斯皮策选择参与其中，他将能够很好地帮助活动人士。
But like I said, he hadn't really taken an interest, not until one day in the fall of '72, when he showed up at a behavioral therapy conference in New York City.
但就像我说的，他并没有真正感兴趣，直到 72 年秋天的一天，他出现在纽约市的一个行为治疗会议上。
Now, it just so happened that this particular behavioral therapy conference had been infiltrated by a group called the Gay Activists Alliance.
现在，碰巧这个特殊的行为治疗会议被一个名为“同性恋活动家联盟”的组织渗透了。
Among them was a man named Ronald Gold.
其中有一个名叫罗纳德·戈尔德的人。
We went to this meeting, and we're all sitting there like everybody else.
我们参加了这次会议，我们都像其他人一样坐在那里。
And at a particular time, the idea was for somebody to get up and say, sorry, we're taking you over.
在某个特定的时间，我们的想法是让某人站起来说，对不起，我们要接管你了。
And he didn't show up.
而他却没有出现。
And so they all sort of looked at me and said, you've got to do it.
所以他们都看着我说，你必须这么做。
At the time, Ronald Gold, like Robert Spitzer, was a minor figure in this battle.
当时，罗纳德·戈尔德（Ronald Gold）和罗伯特·斯皮策（Robert Spitzer）一样，在这场战斗中只是一个小人物。
He had recently quit his job as a reporter for Variety to become media director of the Gay Activists Alliance, but he almost never made speeches.
他最近辞去了《综艺》记者的工作，成为同性恋活动家联盟的媒体总监，但他几乎从未发表过演讲。
He was strictly a backstage kind of guy.
他是严格意义上的幕后人物。
But at this conference, when the usual speech maker didn't show, Ron got up and railed against the psychiatrist himself.
但在这次会议上，当通常的演讲者没有出现时，罗恩站起来斥责这位精神科医生本人。
Apparently made enough of a spectacle to tick off Robert Spitzer who, after the meeting, decided to tell Ron off.
显然，这一场面足以激怒罗伯特·斯皮策，后者在会后决定斥责罗恩。
Ronald Gold.
罗纳德·戈尔德.
When it was all over, this woman, who was a friend of mine, came by to say hi, and good job, or words to that effect.
一切结束后，这位女士，我的朋友，过来打招呼，说干得好，或者类似的话。
And she introduced me to this man, who happened to be with her, who was Dr. Robert Spitzer.
她向我介绍了这个恰好和她在一起的男人，他就是罗伯特·斯皮策博士。
I complained to him, you know?
我向他投诉了，你知道吗？
You've broken up a meeting.
你破坏了一次会议。
You're not letting-- you know, it's one thing to talk, but it's another thing to break up a meeting.
你不让——你知道，说话是一回事，但中断会议又是另一回事。
And we started to have a discussion.
我们开始讨论。
And at some point in that discussion, well, he learned that I was on this committee.
在讨论的某个时刻，他得知我是这个委员会的成员。
And I said to him, do two things for us.
我对他说，为我们做两件事。
Set up a meeting for us with the Nomenclature Committee, and set up some kind of a panel discussion at the next convention and allow us to participate.
为我们与命名委员会安排一次会议，并在下一次会议上安排某种小组讨论，让我们参与。
Ron asked formally for permission to speak to our committee.
罗恩正式请求允许向我们的委员会发言。
He was interested.
他很感兴趣。
I think he was intrigued by the-- you'd have to talk to him exactly about what his feelings at the time were.
我认为他对——你必须和他准确地谈论他当时的感受感兴趣。
I started off by feeling they're wrong, but they're interesting.
一开始我觉得他们错了，但他们很有趣。
And something I wanted to understand-- their viewpoint.
我想了解一些东西——他们的观点。
That's how it started.
事情就是这样开始的。
Robert Spitzer arranged for an appearance in front of the Nomenclature Committee, as promised.
罗伯特·斯皮策按照承诺安排在命名委员会面前露面。
Several months later, three gay activists presented their case to the Nomenclature doctors, who listened, and nodded, and, after their presentation was done and the room was cleared, had absolutely no idea what to do about it.
几个月后，三名同性恋活动人士向命名法医生介绍了他们的情况，医生们听了，点点头，在他们的介绍完成并且房间被清理干净后，完全不知道该怎么办。
Even Robert Spitzer wasn't sure where he stood on the issue, and so he came up with a plan.
就连罗伯特·斯皮策也不确定自己在这个问题上的立场，因此他提出了一个计划。
Spitzer decided that the two sides, who had been shouting at one another for over two years, but incredibly, hadn't officially met face to face, should have an organized debate-- a final meeting between the two sides.
斯皮策决定，双方已经互相争吵了两年多，但令人难以置信的是，双方都没有正式面对面会面，应该进行一场有组织的辩论——双方之间的最后一次会面。
And so, for the 1973 APA convention in Honolulu, Spitzer organized a forum where both sides could directly argue the merits of the case with each other.
因此，在 1973 年檀香山举行的 APA 大会上，斯皮策组织了一个论坛，双方可以直接就案件的是非曲直进行争论。
The old guard, Charles Socarides and Irving Bieber, publicly met the new school, Ronald Gold, Judd Marmor, and several other psychiatrists, in front of a room filled to capacity.
老卫士查尔斯·索卡里德斯和欧文·比伯在一个挤满了人的房间前公开会见了新派的罗纳德·戈尔德、贾德·马莫尔和其他几位精神科医生。
Ronald Gold.
罗纳德·戈尔德.
The title of my speech was "Stop It, You're Making Me Sick." And essentially, I said that the diagnosis of the illness of homosexuality is the greatest tool of oppression imaginable.
我演讲的标题是“别说了，你让我恶心了”。从本质上讲，我说对同性恋疾病的诊断是可以想象的最大的压迫工具。
And that they've got to take us out of the nomenclature and in order to prevent this from being the kind of sick that you get when people are repressing you.
他们必须将我们从命名法中剔除，以防止这种情况成为人们镇压你时所患的疾病。
Gold says you're all rats, and you're all inhuman, and you're a disgrace to the profession.
戈尔德说你们都是老鼠，你们都是非人性的，你们是这个行业的耻辱。
Socarides did his "they're betraying their mammalian heritage" number during the thing.
索卡里德斯在活动期间发出了“他们背叛了哺乳动物传统”的号召。
They all just hooted.
他们都只是叫了起来。
I mean, they just thought that was ridiculous.
我的意思是，他们只是认为这很荒谬。
I presented those findings at the national meeting in Hawaii.
我在夏威夷举行的全国会议上介绍了这些发现。
A lot of people booed.
很多人发出嘘声。
Some people clapped.
有人鼓掌。
One of the things he said in that panel was that there are no homosexuals in kibbutzes in Israel.
他在该小组中所说的一件事是，以色列的基布兹里没有同性恋者。
And I had just come back from Israel, and had had a thing with somebody who was raised in a kibbutz.
我刚从以色列回来，和一个在基布兹长大的人发生了关系。
And I said so in their panel, and they all laughed hysterically.
我在他们的小组中这么说了，他们都歇斯底里地笑了。
But it made him seem to be a perfect jackass, which, of course, he was.
但这让他看起来像个完美的混蛋，当然，他确实是个混蛋。
But an equally important performance that day-- the performance which, at least according to Ronald Gold, finally convinced Robert Spitzer to sit down and redraft the 81 words in the Diagnostic and Statistics Manual-- was not the exchange between Ron and Charles Socarides in front of the psychiatrists of the APA.
但那天同样重要的表演——至少根据罗纳德·戈尔德的说法，最终说服罗伯特·斯皮策坐下来重新起草诊断和统计手册中的 81 个词——并不是罗恩和查尔斯·索卡里德斯在 APA 精神病学家面前的交流。
It didn't even take place in the upscale, beachfront hotel in which the conference was stationed.
会议甚至没有在会议所在的高档海滨酒店举行。
No. It took place in a bar later that night, in one of those campy Hawaiian lounges with bamboo furniture, grass skirted waitresses, and a three-page menu of exotically-colored drinks.
不。那天晚上晚些时候，事情发生在一家酒吧，在一间夏威夷风格的休闲休息室里，里面有竹制家具、穿着草裙的女服务员和一份三页的异国情调饮料菜单。
This is where the GAYPA had decided to hold its annual party.
GAYPA 决定在这里举办年度聚会。
Naturally, after his speech at the conference, Ron Gold got an invitation.
自然，在会议上发表演讲后，罗恩·戈尔德收到了邀请。
I got invited to this party, but I was told keep it all very quiet and don't say anything.
我被邀请参加这个聚会，但他们告诉我要保持安静，不要说任何话。
And just come to this bar, and we'll all be there.
只要来到这个酒吧，我们都会在那里。
So I decided to invite Spitzer to come to this because he had told me, essentially, that he didn't know any gay psychiatrists and wasn't quite sure there were any.
所以我决定邀请斯皮策来参加这个活动，因为他基本上告诉我，他不认识任何同性恋精神病学家，也不太确定是否有同性恋精神病学家。
And I said, you just come along.
我说，你就来吧。
Ron warned Spitzer not to say anything.
罗恩警告斯皮策不要说什么。
He was instructed not to speak, or stare, or indicate in any way that he was anything other than a closeted gay man.
他被指示不要说话、凝视或以任何方式表明他不是一个未出柜的同性恋者。
But once he got there and saw that the head of the Transactional Analysis Association and the guy who handed out all the training money in the United States, and the heads of various prestigious psychiatry departments at various universities were all there, he couldn't believe it.
但当他到了那里，看到交易分析协会的会长和美国所有培训经费的发放者，以及各个大学的各个著名精神病学系的负责人都在那里时，他简直不敢相信。
And he started asking all these absolutely dim-witted questions.
他开始问所有这些绝对愚蠢的问题。
Like what?
比如什么？
Ronald Gold Oh, I can't even remember, but questions that no gay person would ask.
罗纳德·戈尔德 哦，我什至不记得了，但同性恋者不会问的问题。
At the time, the members of the GAYPA were still completely hidden.
当时，GAYPA的成员仍然完全隐藏。
They hadn't been active in the struggle to change the DSM.
他们并没有积极参与改变 DSM 的斗争。
They were too fearful of losing their jobs to identify themselves publicly.
他们太害怕失去工作而不敢公开表明自己的身份。
So when Robert Spitzer, an obviously straight man in a position of power at the APA, appeared at the bar, the men of the GAYPA were completely unnerved.
因此，当罗伯特·斯皮策（Robert Spitzer），一个明显是在 APA 掌权的异性恋人士出现在酒吧时，GAYPA 的人完全感到不安。
So the Grand Dragon of the GAYPA, whoever he was, I can't remember now-- came up to me and said, get rid of him.
所以GAYPA的巨龙，不管他是谁，我现在不记得了——走到我面前说，除掉他。
Get him out of here.
带他离开这里。
You got to get rid of him.
你必须摆脱他。
And I said, I'm doing nothing of the kind.
我说，我什么也没做。
He's here to help us, and you are not doing anything.
他是来帮助我们的，而你什么也没做。
And that's when it happened.
就在那时，事情发生了。
There, in front of Robert Spitzer and the Grand Dragon of the GAYPA, there in the midst of neon-colored drinks and grass-skirted waitresses, a young man in full Army uniform walked into the bar.
在那里，在罗伯特·斯皮策和GAYPA巨龙的面前，在霓虹灯色的饮料和草裙女服务员的中间，一个穿着全套军装的年轻人走进了酒吧。
He looked at Robert Spitzer.
他看着罗伯特·斯皮策。
He looked at Ronald Gold.
他看着罗纳德·戈尔德。
He looked at the Grand Dragon of the GAYPA.
他看着GAYPA的巨龙。
And then the young man in uniform burst into tears.
随后，身穿制服的年轻人泪流满面。
He threw himself into Ron's arms and remained there, sobbing.
他扑进罗恩的怀里，留在那里抽泣。
Well, I had no idea who he was.
好吧，我不知道他是谁。
It turned out he was a psychiatrist, an Army psychiatrist based in Hawaii, who was so moved by my speech, he told me, that he decided that he had to go to a gay bar for the first time in his life.
原来他是一名精神科医生，驻扎在夏威夷的陆军精神科医生，他告诉我，我的演讲让他非常感动，他决定一生中第一次去同性恋酒吧。
And somehow or other, he got directed to this particular bar and saw me and all these gay psychiatrists.
不知何故，他被引导到这个特定的酒吧，看到了我和所有这些同性恋精神病医生。
And it was too much for him.
这对他来说太过分了。
He just cracked up.
他刚刚大笑起来。
And it was a very moving event.
这是一个非常感人的事件。
I mean, this man was awash in tears.
我的意思是，这个男人泪流满面。
And I believe that that was what decided Spitzer right then and there, let's go.
我相信这就是斯皮策当时做出的决定，我们走吧。
And of course, it was right after that that he said, let's go write the resolution.
当然，紧接着他就说，我们去写决议吧。
And so we went back to Spitzer's hotel room and wrote the resolution.
于是我们回到了斯皮策的酒店房间并写下了决议。
Right then?
就这样吗？
That night?
那天晚上？
Ronald Gold Right, that night.
罗纳德·戈尔德 对，那天晚上。
Robert Spitzer's resolution didn't call for a flat-out elimination of homosexuality from the APA nomenclature.
罗伯特·斯皮策的决议并没有要求从 APA 术语中彻底消除同性恋。
He didn't think that the psychiatrists of the APA would approve an outright deletion.
他认为 APA 的精神病学家不会批准彻底删除。
Instead, it argued that in order for a behavior to be categorized as pathological, the behavior must cause, quote, "subjective distress." In other words, if you were gay and it didn't bother you, you weren't sick.
相反，它认为，为了将一种行为归类为病态，该行为必须引起“主观痛苦”。换句话说，如果你是同性恋并且它没有困扰你，那么你就没有生病。
For those homosexuals who were troubled by their orientation, Spitzer created a new category-- ego dystonic homosexuality.
对于那些被自己的取向所困扰的同性恋者，斯皮策创造了一个新的类别——自我失调的同性恋。
And it was the 237 words which followed this heading, which were eventually submitted to the reference committee, which was then headed by the president-elect of the APA-- my grandfather, Dr. John P Spiegel.
这个标题后面的 237 个单词最终被提交给参考委员会，该委员会当时由 APA 当选主席——我的祖父约翰·P·斯皮格尔博士 (Dr. John P Spiegel) 领导。
Once the reference committee endorsed the change, it was sent to the board of trustees and the president of the APA, Dr. Alfred Freedman, one of the newly elected APA officials whose candidacy for office had been contrived and supported by the Committee for Concerned Psychiatry and the Young Turks, who sat around my grandfather's kitchen table.
一旦参考委员会批准了这一改变，它就被发送给董事会和 APA 主席阿尔弗雷德·弗里德曼 (Alfred Freedman) 博士，他是新当选的 APA 官员之一，他的公职候选资格是由关心精神病学委员会和青年土耳其党策划和支持的，他们坐在我祖父的厨房桌子周围。
On December 15, 1973, this president and this board called a press conference where they announced to the world that they had approved the deletion of homosexuality from the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistics Manual.
1973 年 12 月 15 日，这位主席和该委员会召开了一次新闻发布会，向全世界宣布他们已批准从美国精神病学协会的诊断和统计手册中删除同性恋一词。
Charles Socarides, naturally, was appalled.
查尔斯·索卡里德斯自然感到震惊。
I said, holy [BLEEP].
我说，天哪[BLEEP]。
They're changing the rules.
他们正在改变规则。
If there's anything you couldn't change in this world would be the relationship between a male and a female.
如果说这个世界上还有什么是你无法改变的，那就是男女之间的关系了。
They go together.
他们一起去。
They go together through all of evolution, right up the animal kingdom, right to man.
它们一起经历了整个进化过程，一直到动物王国，一直到人类。
And now they're saying it's just as natural to mate with the same sex as it is with the opposite sex.
现在他们说与同性交配和与异性交配一样自然。
What will psychiatry think?
精神病学会怎么想？
What will medicine think?
医学会怎么想？
What will pediatric think?
小儿会怎么想？
They think we've gone insane.
他们认为我们疯了。
The headline in our newsletter at the National Gay Task Force was, "The Earth is round." And that's what it was to us.
国家同性恋工作组通讯的标题是“地球是圆的”。这就是我们的情况。
They finally got around to having a grain of sanity.
他们终于恢复了一点理智。
So that's the story of how 81 words became 237 words.
这就是 81 个单词变成 237 个单词的故事。
That's the story of a definition.
这就是定义的故事。
Today, there's no entry in the DSM on homosexuality, no entry at all.
如今，DSM 中没有关于同性恋的条目，根本没有条目。
In 1987, the 237 words that Robert Spitzer wrote about ego dystonic homosexuality were quietly removed.
1987年，罗伯特·斯皮策写的关于自我失调的同性恋的237个字被悄悄删除。
Meanwhile, the APA turned itself upside down.
与此同时，APA 却发生了天翻地覆的变化。
In 1970, 90% of the American Psychiatric Association believed that homosexuality was a pathology.
1970年，美国精神病学协会90%的人认为同性恋是一种病态。
Today, 90% believe that it's a normal variant of sexual behavior, no more pathological than something like left-handedness.
如今，90% 的人认为这是一种正常的性行为，并不比左撇子更病态。
In fact, it's now considered unethical to treat homosexuality.
事实上，现在对待同性恋被认为是不道德的。
And any psychiatrist who attempts to change the sexual orientation of his patient can face professional censure.
任何试图改变病人性取向的精神科医生都可能面临专业谴责。
If a gay person finds his sexual preference disturbing, if he's interested in becoming heterosexual-- and there are many people who fit this description-- the APA guidelines suggest that the therapist counsel his patient that change is impossible.
如果一个同性恋者发现他的性偏好令人不安，如果他有兴趣成为异性恋——并且有很多人符合这种描述——APA指南建议治疗师建议他的病人改变是不可能的。
My family always told me that my grandfather single-handedly changed the DSM.
我的家人总是告诉我，是我祖父一手改变了 DSM。
But what's striking is all the different forces that had to be in place in order to make this happen.
但引人注目的是，为了实现这一目标，所有不同的力量都必须到位。
It took both Evelyn Hooker and Dr. Anonymous, John P.
伊芙琳·胡克 (Evelyn Hooker) 和无名氏博士约翰·P.
Spiegel and Ronald Gold-- people on the outside, people on the inside, and people at every point in between.
斯皮格尔和罗纳德·戈尔德——外部的人、内部的人以及介于两者之间的人。
The change happened partly through scientific debate and partly simply because psychiatrists got to know gay men.
这种变化部分是通过科学辩论而发生的，部分仅仅是因为精神病学家开始了解男同性恋者。
There are a couple of interesting postscripts to this story.
这个故事有几个有趣的后记。
Dr. Irving Bieber died in 1991, and the New York Times published an obituary which focused on his work and homosexuality in a way that his wife, Toby, found hostile and insulting.
欧文·比伯博士于 1991 年去世，《纽约时报》发表了一篇讣告，重点关注了他的工作和同性恋行为，而他的妻子托比则对他充满敌意和侮辱。
Most of the quotes were from people who never agreed with him.
大多数引言都是来自那些从未同意他观点的人。
Worse, the newspaper mistakenly printed a picture of Robert Spitzer, Dr. Bieber's longtime opponent, in Dr. Bieber's place.
更糟糕的是，该报错误地将比伯博士的长期对手罗伯特·斯皮策的照片印在了比伯博士的位置上。
This misprint so infuriated his wife, Toby, that she canceled her subscription to the New York Times and never bought the newspaper again.
这个印刷错误激怒了他的妻子托比，她取消了对《纽约时报》的订阅，并且再也没有购买过这份报纸。
When she wants to find out what's going on in the world, she says she watches television.
当她想了解世界上正在发生什么时，她说她看电视。
And then there's Charles Socarides.
然后是查尔斯·索卡里德斯。
Dr. Socarides continues to teach and practice psychiatry, but his views on homosexuality have damaged his position in his profession.
索卡里德斯博士继续教授和实践精神病学，但他对同性恋的看法损害了他在职业中的地位。
He's been violently criticized by his peers.
他受到了同僚的猛烈批评。
And his book on homosexuality, called A Freedom Too Far, was refused by over 40 publishers.
他关于同性恋的书《A Freedom Too Far》被 40 多家出版商拒绝。
In the end, he had to print the book himself.
最后，他不得不亲自印制这本书。
But Socarides remains convinced that he has chosen the right path and claims that, far from destroying his career, his views on homosexuality have actually helped his practice.
但索卡里德斯仍然坚信自己选择了正确的道路，并声称他对同性恋的看法非但没有毁掉他的事业，反而帮助了他的实践。
Oh, it's made it boom.
哦，它使它繁荣起来。
Alix Spiegel It made it boom?
阿利克斯·斯皮格尔（Alix Spiegel）让它蓬勃发展？
Boom, sure.
繁荣，当然。
Sure.
当然。
I'm known both as the devil of the radical gay movement, and I'm also known as the savior of many homosexual's lives.
我既被称为激进同性恋运动的魔鬼，也被称为许多同性恋生命的救世主。
Last week, I saw somebody with his son of 16 who said they've taken the boy to six psychiatrists in New Jersey, and everyone of them said, get out of here, or told him that he can't be helped.
上周，我看到有人带着他 16 岁的儿子说，他们已经带孩子去看新泽西州的六位精神科医生，他们每个人都说，离开这里，或者告诉他，他无法得到帮助。
And that's happened over and over again.
这种情况一再发生。
I've heard a lot of terrible words against me, but my patients would tell you differently-- any one of them.
我听过很多针对我的可怕言论，但我的病人会以不同的方式告诉你——其中任何一个。
One of the homosexuals who does not speak against Socarides is his eldest son, Richard Socarides, a lawyer who served as an advisor to the Clinton administration on lesbian and gay issues, and who helped to organize, among other things, a White House Conference on HIV and AIDS.
不反对索卡里德斯的同性恋者之一是他的长子理查德·索卡里德斯，他是一名律师，曾担任克林顿政府男女同性恋问题顾问，并帮助组织了白宫艾滋病毒和艾滋病会议等活动。
Dr. Charles Socarides has told reporters that he wonders if he failed his son, Richard.
查尔斯·索卡里德斯博士告诉记者，他想知道自己是否辜负了儿子理查德。
That's the word he used, "failed." Dr. Socarides believes his own theories, and therefore believes that he is in some way responsible for his son's sexual orientation.
他用的就是这个词：“失败”。索卡里德斯博士相信自己的理论，因此相信他在某种程度上对儿子的性取向负有责任。
A few years ago, his son, Richard, told the press, quote, "Our relationship is quite strained, but is a relationship, nonetheless."
几年前，他的儿子理查德告诉媒体，“我们的关系相当紧张，但仍然是一种关系。”
Finally, there's my grandfather, Dr. John P.
最后是我的祖父约翰·P.
Siegel, whose postscript was written that day in the Bahamas in 1981 when he stepped out of his beachfront bungalow into the Caribbean sun, his new lover, David, on his arm.
西格尔的后记是 1981 年巴哈马群岛的那一天，当时他走出海滨平房，沐浴在加勒比海的阳光下，手臂上挽着他的新情人大卫。
Thank you very much, Grandpa.
非常感谢您，爷爷。
That was very interesting.
这很有趣。
I hope it's as interesting to listen to as it was to conduct the interview with you.
我希望聆听的内容和对您的采访一样有趣。
End of interview.
采访结束。
Bye-bye.
再见。
Alix Siegel, who put that story together, these days is the co-host of the NPR show, Invisabilia, which is about the things that shape our ideas, and beliefs, and assumptions, very much along the lines of the story you just heard.
阿利克斯·西格尔（Alix Siegel）将这个故事放在一起，现在是 NPR 节目《Invisabilia》的联合主持人，该节目是关于塑造我们的想法、信仰和假设的事物，与您刚刚听到的故事非常相似。
It's available wherever you get your podcasts.
无论您在何处获取播客，都可以使用它。
And I know we say that all the time.
我知道我们一直这么说。
If you don't actually have a place that you get podcasts, just type Invisabilia into Google search, and you will find it.
如果您实际上没有提供播客的地方，只需在 Google 搜索中输入 Invisabilia，您就会找到它。
As I said earlier, we first aired today's program in 2002.
正如我之前所说，我们在 2002 年首次播出今天的节目。
In the years since then, so many people in the story have died-- Charles Socarides, John Fryer, Toby Bieber, who's Irving Bieber's wife, Gary Allender, who was one of the gay activists who infiltrated the APA convention, and Robert Spitzer and Ronald Gold, the unlikely pair who drafted the resolution after that fateful night in the Hawaiian tiki bar.
从那以后的几年里，故事中的很多人都去世了——查尔斯·索卡里德斯、约翰·弗赖尔、托比·比伯（欧文·比伯的妻子）、加里·阿伦德（渗入 APA 大会的同性恋活动人士之一），以及罗伯特·斯皮策和罗纳德·戈尔德，这对不太可能的情侣在夏威夷提基酒吧的那个决定性的夜晚后起草了这项决议。
Special thanks to [INAUDIBLE] Martin Duberman, whose memoir Cures details what it was like to be a gay man undergoing therapy for homosexuality for a decade.
特别感谢[听不清]马丁·杜伯曼（Martin Duberman），他的回忆录《治愈》详细描述了一名男同性恋者接受同性恋治疗十年的感受。
Coincidentally, Radiolab just did a spectacularly good series of shows on this same period of history where psychiatry was rethinking homosexuality.
巧合的是，Radiolab 刚刚在精神病学重新思考同性恋的同一历史时期制作了一系列非常精彩的节目。
I cannot recommend this enough.
我极力推荐这个。
They've just been killing it lately.
他们最近一直在杀戮。
It's a few episodes that they call "Un-erased." Again, that's Radiolab, wherever you get your-- oh I'm not even going to say all that again.
他们称之为“未删除”的几集。再说一次，那是 Radiolab，无论你在哪里找到你的——哦，我什至不会再说一遍。
Thanks to WYPR in Baltimore.
感谢巴尔的摩的 WYPR。
Alix Spiegel's story was funded with money from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.
阿利克斯·斯皮格尔的故事是由公共广播公司资助的。
This American Life is distributed by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 发行。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia, who was allowed to visit our program this week.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生本周获准访问我们的项目。
If he would just follow some simple rules--
如果他只遵循一些简单的规则——
Not to speak, or stare, or indicate, in any way, that he was anything other than a closeted gay man.
不要说话、凝视或以任何方式表明他不是一个未出柜的同性恋者。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
This American Life This American Life 与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。