202: Faith - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #202 | December 21, 2001 202: Faith Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 202 集 | 2001 年 12 月 21 日 202：信念注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life, distributed by Public Radio International.
序言 Ira Glass 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥，这就是美国生活，由国际公共广播电台发行。
When I was 14, I stumbled on this way of looking at the world that seemed to explain everything to me.
当我 14 岁的时候，我偶然发现了这种看待世界的方式，它似乎可以解释一切。
It was contained in a book called Chariots of the Gods by a guy named Erich von Daniken.
它包含在一个名叫埃里希·冯·丹尼肯（Erich von Daniken）的人所著的《众神的战车》一书中。
He explained this thing that had never really made sense to me about the Bible.
他解释了我对圣经从来没有真正理解过的事情。
One of my problems with the Bible at that time is that the way it seemed to me was that the Bible showed this world where God was constantly doing stuff, and involved in people's lives, and going around performing miracles, things were happening all the time, and then-- it never made sense to me-- why did he just up and go?
当时我对圣经的问题之一是，在我看来，圣经向这个世界展示了上帝不断地做事，参与人们的生活，到处创造奇迹，事情一直在发生，然后——这对我来说从来没有意义——为什么他就走了？
If he had such an interest, why did he just suddenly vanish from the scene?
如果他有这么大的兴趣，为什么突然就消失了？
Erich von Daniken explained why with a combination of archaeology, readings from the Bible, readings from myths, from other peoples around the world.
埃里希·冯·丹尼肯结合考古学、圣经解读、神话解读以及世界各地其他民族的解读来解释原因。
And his argument was basically that, thousands of years ago, our planet was being regularly visited by extraterrestrial beings, and they were going around doing all sorts of stuff, healing people, flying.
他的论点基本上是，几千年前，我们的星球经常被外星生物访问，他们到处做各种各样的事情，治愈人们，飞行。
They were making an impression.
他们给人留下了深刻的印象。
In those days, when I was 14, three days a week, two days after school, and then on Sunday, I attended the Baltimore Hebrew College.
那时，我 14 岁，每周三天，放学后两天，然后周日，我去巴尔的摩希伯来学院上学。
And when our class would be going over, for example, the story from Genesis about Abraham and Sarah, and how they miraculously had a son even though she was much too old to have a child, I would helpfully point out that that would be possible if there were space aliens around with superior medical technology.
例如，当我们班复习《创世记》中关于亚伯拉罕和莎拉的故事，以及他们如何奇迹般地生了一个儿子，尽管她已经太老了，不能生孩子时，我会帮助指出，如果周围有拥有先进医疗技术的太空外星人，这就是可能的。
And I talked about these theories so passionately and so persistently that finally it got me kicked out of class.
我如此热情、如此坚持地谈论这些理论，最终让我被赶出了课堂。
I was sent downstairs to the main office, where I had to talk to the guy who ran the Hebrew College, Rabbi Smoler.
我被送到楼下的总办公室，在那里我必须与希伯来学院的负责人拉比·斯莫勒交谈。
Rabbi Smoler's office I remember as this dimly lit place, lit by lamps, with books everywhere, and these big, comfortable chairs.
我记得拉比·斯莫勒的办公室是一个灯光昏暗的地方，灯光照亮，到处都是书籍，还有这些又大又舒适的椅子。
And he was this man who was just smart and funny, and I have to say, completely bemused by the chance to engage a ninth-grader in a substantive discussion of these issues.
他是一个聪明又有趣的人，我不得不说，他对让一个九年级学生对这些问题进行实质性讨论的机会感到完全困惑。
And as I remember, I went down there fairly regularly for a while.
我记得，有一段时间我经常去那里。
And by the time he was done with me, I no longer believed the arguments from Chariots of the Gods.
当他对我说完的时候，我已经不再相信《诸神战车》中的论点了。
The problem was, I also no longer believed in God.
问题是，我也不再相信上帝了。
Something had happened where Chariots of the Gods had kind of been like an occupying army in my head that had killed off the army that was God's army.
发生了一些事情，诸神战车在我的脑海里就像一支占领军，杀死了上帝的军队。
And then when Rabbi Smoler came in and killed off the Chariots of Gods army, there was just basically nothing left.
然后，当斯莫勒拉比进来并消灭了众神战车军队时，基本上就什么都没有剩下了。
I was basically a blank slate.
我基本上是一张白纸。
I was a clean blackboard.
我是一块干净的黑板。
And I have never found again any kind of religious faith.
我再也没有找到任何宗教信仰。
Since the time I was 14, I just don't believe in God.
从我14岁起，我就不相信上帝了。
Every now and then, someone who I'm close to who's Christian tries to tell me about Jesus.
时不时地，一些与我关系密切的基督徒试图向我讲述耶稣。
Whenever that happens, I've taken it very seriously.
每当这种情况发生时，我都会非常认真地对待。
And I have heard them out, and I have looked at the Bible.
我听过他们的说法，也看过圣经。
And every time it's happened, it's come down to this, that I find that I don't seem to have a choice over whether or not I believe in God.
每次发生这种情况，我都会发现我似乎无法选择是否相信上帝。
I simply find that I do not.
我只是发现我没有。
And trying to force myself to believe, it would be like trying to convince yourself that you're in love with somebody who you're not in love with.
试图强迫自己相信，就像试图说服自己，你爱着一个你不爱的人。
Either you have faith or you don't.
你要么有信仰，要么没有。
Either you believe or you don't.
你要么相信，要么不相信。
Your belief finds you, and then you and it have each other.
你的信念找到了你，然后你和它就拥有了彼此。
And once your faith is set, I think only the biggest kind of seismic event in your life can change that, even if you want to change it.
一旦你的信念坚定了，我认为只有你生命中最大的地震事件才能改变它，即使你想改变它。
Well, today on our radio program, in this Christmas season, we bring you stories of people who are stuck in one kind of faith or another, for better or worse, and what happens because of their faith, or lack of it.
好吧，今天在我们的广播节目中，在这个圣诞节期间，我们为您带来一些故事，讲述那些被一种或另一种信仰所困的人，无论好坏，以及由于他们的信仰或缺乏信仰而发生的事情。
Act One of our show, Adventures In Turning the Other Cheek.
我们的节目第一幕，《转过脸去的冒险》。
In that act, we ask the question, how do Christians and Muslims get along in the place where you would think they would get along worse than anywhere, in modern day Afghanistan?
在那一幕中，我们提出了一个问题，在当今的阿富汗，基督徒和穆斯林在你认为他们相处得比任何地方都糟糕的地方如何相处？
And when they talk about religion together, what do they talk about?
当他们一起谈论宗教时，他们谈论什么？
Act Two, Does Size Matter If You're Talking About a Cross?
第二幕，如果你谈论的是十字架，大小重要吗？
In that story, we visit the largest cross in the Western hemisphere, and we find out that, actually, the answer to that question is, yes, size does matter if you're talking about a cross.
在那个故事中，我们参观了西半球最大的十字架，我们发现，实际上，这个问题的答案是，是的，如果你谈论的是十字架，大小确实很重要。
Act Three, The Epiphany Biz, the story of what it means to be a secular person whose job is documenting miracles for Christians.
第三幕，主显节事业，讲述了作为一个世俗人的意义，他的工作是为基督徒记录奇迹。
Act Four, First Be Reconciled To Thy Brother, and Then Come and Offer Thy Gift.
第四幕，首先与你的兄弟和解，然后来提供你的礼物。
In that act, an all-black church gets a white minister who has different ideas than they have about what it means to worship God, whiter ideas, in their view.
在这一行动中，一个全黑人教会得到了一位白人牧师，他对于敬拜上帝的含义与他们有不同的想法，在他们看来，更白人的想法。
Why they've kept him for 15 years, despite that.
尽管如此，为什么他们还是把他留了15年。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, Adventures In Turning the Other Cheek.
第一幕，转过脸去的冒险。
Georg Taubmann is uniquely situated to explain how Christians and Muslims get along in a place where you might think that they wouldn't get along at all.
格奥尔格·陶布曼（Georg Taubmann）具有独特的地位，可以解释基督徒和穆斯林如何在一个你可能认为他们根本无法相处的地方相处。
For 17 years, he's built houses and done other relief work in Afghanistan as part of a Christian missionary group called Shelter Now.
17 年来，他作为基督教传教组织“Shelter Now”的成员，在阿富汗建造房屋并从事其他救援工作。
He speaks Pashtun, has got to know hundreds of Afghanis over the years.
他会说普什图语，多年来已经认识了数百名阿富汗人。
A month before the World Trade Center attack, Georg Taubmann was one of eight Westerners imprisoned by the Taliban.
世贸中心袭击发生前一个月，乔治·陶布曼 (Georg Taubmann) 是被塔利班监禁的八名西方人之一。
They were captives for three months before they were rescued.
他们被囚禁了三个月才获救。
He's back now in his home country, Germany.
他现在回到了自己的祖国德国。
And he says that it was usually easier to talk about god in Taliban-controlled Afghanistan-- a country run by fundamentalist Muslims-- than it usually is in Germany or in the United States.
他说，在塔利班控制的阿富汗——一个由原教旨主义穆斯林统治的国家——谈论上帝通常比在德国或美国更容易。
Contrary to our societies where we come from, it is a very natural thing in Afghanistan to talk about your faith.
与我们来自的社会相反，在阿富汗谈论你的信仰是一件很自然的事情。
And we have plenty of opportunities, because people are a religious people, and if you get to know somebody, it doesn't take usually a long time that you speak about this also.
我们有很多机会，因为人们都是有宗教信仰的人，如果你认识某人，通常不需要很长时间你也会谈论这个。
Most often would you bring it up, or would they bring it up?
最常见的是你会提出这个问题，还是他们会提出这个问题？
In most of the cases, they bring it up.
在大多数情况下，他们都会提出来。
Even while we were in prison with the Taliban, they came and they saw us reading our Bible.
即使我们和塔利班一起关在监狱里，他们也来了，看到我们在读圣经。
They said, oh, what is that?
他们说，哦，那是什么？
We said, this is the Holy Injil.
我们说，这就是神圣的引支勒。
Oh!
哦！
And then they wanted to see it, and they talked about it.
然后他们想看看它，然后他们就谈论它。
And you know, immediately they involved us in conversations.
你知道，他们立即让我们参与对话。
What would you say?
你会说什么？
How would you explain Christianity there?
你会如何解释那里的基督教？
Well, often there's some misconceptions about us Christians.
嗯，人们常常对我们基督徒有一些误解。
Often when they look at us Christians, like Muslims who have been in the West, they say, you people, we never see you praying.
通常，当他们看着我们基督徒，就像西方的穆斯林一样，他们说，你们这些人，我们从来没有看到你们祈祷。
You know, we don't even know whether you're praying.
你知道，我们甚至不知道你是否在祈祷。
You know?
你知道？
Like you see, their prayers is very much in public, you know?
正如你所看到的，他们的祈祷是非常公开的，你知道吗？
And they don't see people, like in Muslim countries, where you see them reading the Koran.
他们看不到人们，就像在穆斯林国家一样，你看到人们在阅读《古兰经》。
So they often think that we Christians, we don't even have holy books, or we don't read them.
所以他们常常认为我们基督徒，我们甚至没有圣书，或者我们不读圣书。
And of course, they see a lot of immorality in our countries.
当然，他们在我们国家看到了很多不道德行为。
You know, sex films being shown on TV, and young people just living together without being married.
你知道，电视上播放性爱电影，年轻人只是同居而不结婚。
And they think, well, that's maybe part of our Christian culture.
他们认为，这可能是我们基督教文化的一部分。
And they think that Christianity sanctions that, because these things are happening in a Christian country.
他们认为基督教会制裁这种行为，因为这些事情发生在基督教国家。
They see a lot of these things happening, and so they think all Christians are like this.
他们看到很多这样的事情发生，所以他们认为所有的基督徒都是这样。
Talking to you, I'm reminded of this story that I once heard about-- there's a German Jewish filmmaker named Marcel Ophuls, who in the last part of his career in the 1960s made a number of films, documentaries-- The Sorrow and the Pity, The Memory of Justice-- where he was interviewing the Nazi high command from World War II.
和你说话，我想起了我曾经听说过的一个故事——有一位德国犹太电影制片人，名叫马塞尔·奥菲尔斯（Marcel Ophuls），他在 20 世纪 60 年代职业生涯的最后阶段拍摄了许多电影、纪录片——《悲伤与怜悯》、《正义的记忆》——他在其中采访了二战时期的纳粹最高指挥部。
And he would make these films, and people would ask him, how did he feel, as a German Jew, interviewing these former members of the Nazi high command, the ones who had survived?
他会拍这些电影，人们会问他，作为一名德国犹太人，采访这些幸存下来的纳粹高级指挥部前成员，他有何感受？
Wasn't it uncomfortable for him?
他不是不舒服吗？
And he would say, like, no, it wasn't.
他会说，不，不是。
He said he found, in fact, that he had more in common with them than he had with most people, because they were both interested in history.
他说，事实上，他发现他与他们的共同点比大多数人更多，因为他们都对历史感兴趣。
They were both interested in the past.
他们都对过去感兴趣。
And I was wondering if there's any element of that in your dealings with Muslims in Afghanistan.
我想知道您与阿富汗穆斯林的交往中是否存在任何此类因素。
That, in a certain way, for somebody who has organized his life around religion, that there's some kind of understanding that one would have with anyone else who has completely organized his life or her life around religion in a way that secular people would be outside of?
在某种程度上，对于那些围绕宗教组织自己的生活的人来说，与那些完全围绕宗教组织自己的生活或她的生活的其他人会有某种理解，而世俗的人则不会这样做？
Yes.
是的。
Yeah, there are things where we understand them and they understand us, where there are things in common in a lot of areas in our lives.
是的，有些事情我们理解他们，他们也理解我们，我们生活中的很多领域都有共同点。
And often, when they see us and get to know us-- and I have seen this amongst a lot of the prisoners, when they watched our lives very closely; you know, they were living with us-- they said, oh, in many ways, you are completely different, you're also like us.
通常，当他们看到我们并了解我们时——我在很多囚犯中看到了这一点，当他们非常密切地观察我们的生活时；你知道，他们和我们住在一起——他们说，哦，在很多方面，你完全不同，你也和我们一样。
And they respected that.
他们尊重这一点。
And many times, secular people-- Let me just tell you.
很多时候，世俗的人——让我告诉你。
Maybe [UNINTELLIGIBLE], but let me tell you.
也许[难以理解]，但让我告诉你。
This one time I was going to apply for funds, and these organizations, these were Western.
这次我要申请资金，这些组织都是西方的。
It was a Western organization, donor organization.
这是一个西方组织，捐助组织。
No, no, we'll never give money to you, because you're a Christian agency and Afghans don't like you.
不，不，我们永远不会给你钱，因为你是一个基督教机构，阿富汗人不喜欢你。
I said, let me tell you one thing.
我说，让我告诉你一件事。
I said, we are Christians.
我说，我们是基督徒。
We believe in one God.
我们相信一位上帝。
And they say they believe in four books, and we believe in three of them.
他们说他们相信四本书，而我们相信其中的三本书。
And they know that we pray, and that we have certain moral standards.
他们知道我们祈祷，并且我们有一定的道德标准。
In fact, Afghans like us very much.
事实上，阿富汗人非常喜欢我们。
They respect us for that.
他们因此尊重我们。
And I said, if you don't believe in God, they will not appreciate that.
我说，如果你不相信上帝，他们就不会感激。
If you're an atheist, they will say, well, he's a kafir, definitely.
如果你是无神论者，他们会说，好吧，他绝对是卡菲尔。
You're like the Russians, who had no faith.
你们就像俄罗斯人一样，没有信仰。
And so he quickly changed his subject.
于是他很快就转移了话题。
And this is what a lot of people do not understand.
而这也是很多人不理解的地方。
I mean, if we come as Christians, they know we are believers, that we believe in God, and we believe in our holy books, and we have certain moral values that, in fact, a lot of these people highly appreciate that.
我的意思是，如果我们是基督徒，他们知道我们是信徒，我们相信上帝，我们相信我们的圣书，我们有一定的道德价值观，事实上，很多人都高度赞赏这一点。
And even a lot of the Taliban, they appreciate this about us.
甚至很多塔利班成员也很欣赏我们的这一点。
How do you know that they appreciated it?
你怎么知道他们欣赏它？
What are you talking about?
你在说什么？
Well, they did tell us.
嗯，他们确实告诉了我们。
I mean, when I was in prison, so many of the Taliban came and talked with us, and discussed-- they challenged us.
我的意思是，当我在监狱里时，很多塔利班成员来与我们交谈、讨论——他们向我们提出挑战。
They watched us every day, and they said, you're a very godly people.
他们每天都看着我们，他们说，你们是一群非常敬虔的人。
They said this many times about our ladies.
他们多次提到我们的女士们。
They said, we've watched these ladies, and they're different than others.
他们说，我们观察过这些女士，她们与其他人不同。
We have seen many other foreigners, and the way they behaved, and what they have done, and so on and so on.
我们看到了许多其他外国人，以及他们的行为方式、他们所做的事情等等。
And they said, we're amazed about them.
他们说，我们对他们感到惊讶。
When the Taliban would challenge you, what would they say?
当塔利班挑战你时，他们会说什么？
Sorry?
对不起？
Ira Glass You said the Taliban would challenge you.
艾拉·格拉斯 你说过塔利班会挑战你。
What would they say?
他们会说什么？
What did they ask?
他们问了什么？
Usually they said, well, why are you not Muslims?
通常他们会说，好吧，你为什么不是穆斯林？
Why don't you become Muslims, and why don't you believe in our books?
你为什么不成为穆斯林，为什么不相信我们的书？
What would you say?
你会说什么？
Georg Taubmann Well, I have in my faith everything that I will desire.
格奥尔格·陶布曼 好吧，我的信仰里拥有我所渴望的一切。
The Bible speaks very clearly how I can have forgiveness of my sins.
圣经非常清楚地说明了我如何才能使我的罪得到赦免。
It shows us that when we follow Jesus, that we have eternal life.
它向我们表明，当我们跟随耶稣时，我们就拥有永生。
And did that answer satisfy them, or did they still feel that you would be better off Muslim?
这个答案是否让他们满意，或者他们仍然觉得你成为穆斯林会更好？
It depends.
这取决于。
Of course, then the discussions went on and on and on.
当然，随后的讨论就一直持续下去。
They said, well, our book also says that if you do this and this and this, you will go to heaven.
他们说，好吧，我们的书还说，如果你这样做、这样做、这样做，你就会去天堂。
But still, there is that uncertainty in their faith.
但他们的信仰仍然存在不确定性。
And judgment.
和判断。
Maybe they will not.
也许他们不会。
Maybe they had done something.
也许他们做了什么。
And I said, well, Jesus, what he promised me is, if I repent and ask for forgiveness, that he will forgive my sins.
我说，好吧，耶稣，他向我承诺的是，如果我悔改并请求宽恕，他就会宽恕我的罪。
And he has done that, and I know it in my heart.
他已经这么做了，我心里也知道。
And they say, well, Jesus cannot do that.
他们说，好吧，耶稣不能那样做。
He cannot just forgive your sins.
他不能仅仅宽恕你的罪过。
He cannot do that.
他不能那样做。
Only Allah can do that.
只有真主才能做到这一点。
And you will see this on Judgment Day, whether he forgives you or not.
无论他是否原谅你，你都会在审判日看到这一点。
I said, why should I now follow again another religion where again, I have to follow all the strict commandments and all the strict rules, and at the end, and I'm not even sure whether God will forgive me?
我说，为什么我现在要再次信仰另一个宗教，我又必须遵守所有严格的戒律和所有严格的规则，到最后，我什至不确定上帝是否会原谅我？
I want to stay in my faith.
我想坚持我的信仰。
I found really everything that I need.
我真的找到了我需要的一切。
Georg Taubmann, talking to us from Germany.
格奥尔格·陶布曼（Georg Taubmann）在德国与我们交谈。
He hopes to resume his work with Shelter Now in Afghanistan within the next few months.
他希望在未来几个月内恢复在阿富汗的“Shelter Now”工作。
Act Two, Does Size Matter If You're Talking About a Cross?
第二幕，如果你谈论的是十字架，大小重要吗？
This is the story of another man stuck in his faith, acting on his faith, in this case by building a big cross, the biggest in the Western hemisphere, in fact, 45 miles east of Amarillo, Texas.
这是另一个人坚守信仰的故事，他按照自己的信仰行事，在这个例子中，他建造了一个大十字架，这是西半球最大的十字架，位于德克萨斯州阿马里洛以东 45 英里处。
Josh Noel went there with This American Life producer Alex Blumberg.
乔什·诺埃尔 (Josh Noel) 与《美国生活》制片人亚历克斯·布隆伯格 (Alex Blumberg) 一起去了那里。
Here's Josh.
这是乔什。
From 20 miles away, the tallest cross in the Western hemisphere doesn't quite look like a cross.
从 20 英里外看，西半球最高的十字架看起来不太像十字架。
It looks more like a mutant telephone pole, just whiter and shinier.
它看起来更像是一根变异的电线杆，只是更白、更闪亮。
But as you speed along Interstate 40, past the wide farms and grassy plains of the Texas panhandle, the cross just keeps growing larger and larger until it's twice the height of a telephone pole, then four times the height, then eight times.
但当你沿着 40 号州际公路飞驰，经过德克萨斯州狭长地带的宽阔农场和草地时，十字架会变得越来越大，直到它的高度达到电线杆的两倍，然后是四倍，然后是八倍。
And because you can't tell exactly how far away it is, at some point you begin to wonder just how tall it's going to get, standing out there in the middle of the unrelenting flatness under a wide blue sky and thick cotton ball clouds.
因为你无法准确说出它有多远，所以在某些时候你开始想知道它会达到多高，站在广阔的蓝天和厚厚的棉球云下无情的平坦中央。
The tallest cross in the Western hemisphere is 190 feet tall, the height of a 19-story building.
西半球最高的十字架高 190 英尺，相当于 19 层建筑的高度。
It's 12 feet across at the base.
底部宽 12 英尺。
There's one bigger cross on the planet.
这个星球上还有一个更大的十字架。
It's in Madrid, and was built by Francisco Franco, a Fascist dictator.
它位于马德里，由法西斯独裁者弗朗西斯科·佛朗哥建造。
But here in America, we turn to the private sector for this sort of thing.
但在美国，我们会向私营部门寻求此类帮助。
A 52-year-old man named Steve Thomas decided to build it a few years back while driving past a gigantic strip club.
几年前，一位名叫史蒂夫·托马斯 (Steve Thomas) 的 52 岁男子开车经过一家巨大的脱衣舞俱乐部时决定建造它。
A triple-x establishment was on I-40, east of Amarillo.
阿马里洛以东的 40 号州际公路上有一家三重酒店。
Three huge silos standing 30, 40 feet, triple x's everywhere, and flashing.
三个巨大的筒仓高 30、40 英尺，到处都是三重 X，而且还在闪烁。
I thought, gosh, around the country, everywhere you look, Satan has all the advertising.
我想，天哪，在全国各地，无论你看到哪里，撒旦都在做广告。
He's got the jump on the gun there.
他已经抢到了枪口。
And I thought, gosh, why can't we outdo that?
我想，天哪，我们为什么不能超越呢？
There's got to be a way we can advertise for Jesus in a much more grand way.
我们必须有一种方法可以以更宏伟的方式为耶稣做广告。
So I prayed to the Lord for about six months thinking I was going to build a billboard.
所以我向主祈祷了大约六个月，想着我要建造一个广告牌。
And after six months of trying to do it my way, through a billboard, he gave me a vision of a cross.
经过六个月的尝试，按照我的方式，通过广告牌，他给了我一个十字架的愿景。
And I mean, I just knew right then and there that the huge cross was what I was going to do.
我的意思是，我当时就知道那个巨大的十字架就是我要做的。
For most of us, such a vision would present logistical problems.
对于我们大多数人来说，这样的愿景会带来后勤问题。
But fortunately for the Lord, Steve Thomas is both a structural engineer and a millionaire, having made his fortune in the oil business.
但幸运的是，史蒂夫·托马斯既是一名结构工程师，又是一名百万富翁，他在石油行业发了财。
The cross is built out of white corrugated steel, the kind they use for industrial warehouses, and took 250 welders eight months to assemble.
十字架是用白色波纹钢建造的，他们用的是工业仓库的那种钢，250 名焊工花了 8 个月的时间才组装完成。
The day they poured the foundation, sales of ready-mix concrete came to a stop in the Texas panhandle.
浇筑地基的那天，德克萨斯州狭长地带的预拌混凝土销售停止了。
In all, the cross cost Steve half a million dollars, but he says he would have spent more and built even taller if objects higher than 200 feet hadn't been subject to FAA regulation.
总而言之，这个十字架花费了史蒂夫 50 万美元，但他表示，如果 200 英尺以上的物体没有受到美国联邦航空局 (FAA) 的监管，他会花更多钱，建造得更高。
Steve didn't want the government involved with his cross.
史蒂夫不希望政府介入他的十字架。
The cross is so big that it can be hard to pray in front of.
十字架太大了，很难在面前祈祷。
Because it's built of corrugated steel, you sort of feel like you're worshipping at the side of a grain silo.
因为它是由波纹钢制成的，所以你感觉就像在粮仓旁边做礼拜。
Instead, most people pray at smaller statues of Jesus that stand in a circle around the base of the cross, or at a life-size rendition of the crucifixion.
相反，大多数人会向围绕十字架底部围成一圈的较小耶稣雕像祈祷，或者向真人大小的耶稣受难像祈祷。
There's a marble headstone in which a pair of hands cradle a tiny fetus, which is also very popular.
有一个大理石墓碑，墓碑上有一双双手抱着一个小小的胎儿，这也很受欢迎。
The atmosphere is quiet and surprisingly church-like for something that's next to a highway.
气氛很安静，对于高速公路旁边的地方来说，令人惊讶的是像教堂一样。
We spent two days at the cross to see if Steve's initial plan was working, to see if the cross was tempting people toward God the way a triple-x theater might tempt people into sin.
我们在十字架上花了两天时间，看看史蒂夫最初的计划是否有效，看看十字架是否会像三重影院引诱人们犯罪一样引诱人们走向上帝。
But in two days, we saw no conversions.
但两天后，我们没有看到任何转变。
If Steve's idea was that the cross had the power to call people from the highway to God, it seems to work best with people who have already heard that call, like a bunch of guys covered in tattoos who climb out of a van on their way home to Chicago from a church retreat in California.
如果史蒂夫的想法是十字架有能力呼召人们从高速公路上归向上帝，那么它似乎最适合那些已经听到这个呼召的人，就像一群浑身纹身的人从一辆货车里爬出来，从加利福尼亚州的一个教堂静修处返回芝加哥。
We're all ex-gang members, ex-drug addicts, touched and transformed by the power of Jesus Christ.
我们都是前帮派成员、前吸毒者，都被耶稣基督的力量所感动和改变。
About a dozen church members from Rocky, Oklahoma jump out of their van, huddled for a minute, and then just started singing.
来自俄克拉荷马州洛基市的大约十几名教会成员从货车上跳下来，挤在一起一分钟，然后开始唱歌。
[SINGING] Josh Noel There aren't many public places where people can just climb out of a car and burst into song, but we saw this happen twice.
[唱歌] Josh Noel 没有多少公共场所可以让人们从车里爬出来大声唱歌，但我们看到这种情况发生了两次。
[SINGING] Josh Noel A man from Alpine, Arizona makes a monthly drive to a cancer clinic in Tulsa, Oklahoma, the only place able to treat his rare liver cancer.
[歌唱] 乔希·诺埃尔 (Josh Noel) 亚利桑那州阿尔派恩 (Alpine) 的一名男子每月开车前往俄克拉荷马州塔尔萨 (Tulsa) 的一家癌症诊所，那里是唯一能够治疗他罕见肝癌的地方。
He usually stops at the cross on the way to Oklahoma, but not on the way back.
他通常在去俄克拉荷马州的途中在十字路口停留，但在回来的路上不会。
Because of the chemotherapy and things that they do there, I'm generally feeling too bad to-- I want to get home as soon as I can.
由于化疗和他们在那里做的事情，我通常感觉太糟糕了——我想尽快回家。
And any little jolt, bump in the road, man, you can feel it.
路上的任何轻微颠簸、颠簸，伙计，你都能感觉到。
I'll guarantee you.
我向你保证。
Yeah, I'm sure.
是的，我确定。
Burton Kennedy My name's Burton Kennedy.
伯顿·肯尼迪 我的名字是伯顿·肯尼迪。
I'm from North Carolina.
我来自北卡罗来纳州。
I'm a long haul truck driver.
我是一名长途卡车司机。
My name's Greg Talese, and I'm from Phoenix, Arizona, and I'm a truck driver.
我叫格雷格·塔莱斯，来自亚利桑那州菲尼克斯，是一名卡车司机。
My name's Ricky Martin and I drive a truck.
我叫瑞奇·马丁，我开卡车。
There are a lot of truck drivers here.
这里有很多卡车司机。
Ricky Martin drove by the cross a bunch of times before he finally stopped.
瑞奇·马丁 (Ricky Martin) 多次驶过十字路口，最后才停下来。
I was real upset over everything that was going on with my family.
我对家人发生的一切感到非常沮丧。
My mother's up in her 80s, and I was real worried that she didn't have no way of taking care of herself up in her golden years.
我母亲已经80多岁了，我很担心她在晚年无法照顾自己。
So I was real upset, couldn't drive.
所以我真的很沮丧，无法开车。
And when I left here, I was totally at ease.
当我离开这里时，我完全放松了。
And I just kind of went, wow, maybe there is something to this place.
我就想，哇，也许这个地方有什么东西。
At peak times-- weekends during the summer-- 2,000 people a day visit the cross.
在高峰时段（夏季的周末），每天有 2,000 人参观十字架。
A lot of them are just tourists passing through, stopping quickly to take a look.
很多都是路过的游客，赶紧停下来看看。
But most use the cross for some sort of quiet moment with God.
但大多数人都会利用十字架来与神安静相处。
For some people-- not many-- the cross is an actual destination.
对于一些人（不是很多）来说，十字架是一个真正的目的地。
They head onto the highway planning to show up here.
他们走上高速公路，计划出现在这里。
I'm Shannon Berry from Levelland, Texas.
我是来自德克萨斯州利弗兰的香农·贝瑞。
This is my wife, Linda Berry.
这是我的妻子琳达·贝瑞。
We're newlyweds.
我们是新婚夫妇。
This is our honeymoon trip.
这就是我们的蜜月之旅。
Considering how Shannon and Linda met, it's no surprise they decided there was no better place for their honeymoon.
考虑到香农和琳达是如何相遇的，他们认为没有比这里更好的蜜月之地也就不足为奇了。
They first spotted each other at a gospel festival and were later introduced by friends at a Memorial Day cookout.
他们第一次在福音节上认识，后来在阵亡将士纪念日野餐会上经朋友介绍认识。
And we went out and had coffee.
我们出去喝咖啡。
And what was strange about having coffee after the cookout was that we sat down on the sofa and we started talking, and before long, we were praying.
野餐后喝咖啡的奇怪之处在于，我们坐在沙发上开始交谈，不久之后，我们就开始祈祷了。
And I mean, we got into prayer so hard that the first time I'd ever had the Holy Spirit in me.
我的意思是，我们如此努力地祈祷，以至于我第一次有圣灵在我里面。
I thought I knew Jesus.
我以为我认识耶稣。
You know, I thought I knew Jesus.
你知道，我以为我认识耶稣。
But I didn't.
但我没有。
I found Jesus Christ that night.
那天晚上我找到了耶稣基督。
Shannon just let go of my hand and got on his hands and knees and started crying.
香农松开了我的手，趴在地上开始哭泣。
And he knew immediately he had the Holy Spirit.
他立即知道他有圣灵。
It's just like going from hot to cold.
就像从热到冷一样。
It's just the cold chill you feel all over your body.
只感觉浑身冰冷。
It's not like anything you've ever felt before.
这和你以前感受过的不一样。
You can tell.
你可以说出来。
We shared it with the whole trailer park that night.
那天晚上我们与整个拖车公园分享了它。
We went outside and we asked the Holy Spirit to go into every place we could see.
我们走到外面，请求圣灵进入我们能看到的每一个地方。
It was--
那是——
Float it right in.
直接漂浮进去。
Waved it right into each house.
把它挥舞到每间房子里。
And of course I had the Holy Ghost, so I have the tongues.
当然，我有圣灵，所以我有方言。
So I started praying in tongues, and then I started giggling, and I couldn't stop giggling.
于是我开始用方言祷告，然后我开始咯咯地笑，而且我无法停止咯咯地笑。
And I mean, it was like 2 o'clock and Shannon kept saying, "Oh!
我的意思是，就在 2 点左右，香农一直说：“哦！
I feel it again.
我又感觉到了。
I just feel it again and I feel it again!"
我只是再次感觉到了，我再次感觉到了！”
And it was already 2 o'clock, and he had to go all the way to Levelland.
而此时已经是凌晨两点了，他必须一路赶往Levelland。
After a first date like that, it seemed pretty clear they had to get married.
经过这样的第一次约会，他们似乎很清楚必须结婚了。
I knew it.
我就知道。
With the second date, I did.
第二次约会时，我做到了。
I asked her then.
我当时问她。
Today is nine weeks that we've known each other.
今天是我们认识九个星期了。
Shannon and Linda sit in front of one of the statues at the base of the cross and pray that their marriage will be everything it should be, everything God wants it to be.
香农和琳达坐在十字架底部的一尊雕像前，祈祷他们的婚姻能够一切顺利，一切都是上帝想要的。
In two days at the cross, the only person we talked to who didn't already have a heavy-duty kind of faith working for them was a college student named Heather.
在十字架上的两天里，我们采访的唯一一个还没有为他们工作的重型信仰的人是一位名叫希瑟的大学生。
She was 20 years old, with a pierced navel, and driving a heavily-loaded pickup truck.
她今年20岁，肚脐被刺穿，开着一辆满载的皮卡车。
She was traveling with her cat, a kitten named Tinsel, on her way from San Diego to Oklahoma City.
她带着她的猫（一只名叫 Tinsel 的小猫）从圣地亚哥飞往俄克拉荷马城。
Oh, I have school waiting for me, and a job.
哦，我还有学校在等着我，还有工作在等着我。
I work at Hooters.
我在猫头鹰餐厅工作。
So I've got to go out there and deal with that.
所以我必须出去解决这个问题。
As fate would have it, Heather happened to be driving by the second-largest cross on the planet just a few days after deciding she needed a big change in her life.
命运就是如此，希瑟在决定自己的生活需要做出重大改变的几天后，碰巧开车经过地球上第二大十字架。
OK, I was at a bonfire with my friends.
好吧，我和朋友们正在篝火旁。
And you know, I'm sure it's well-known knowledge that almost everybody in California smokes pot and drinks beer, and like, you know, we're flakes or whatnot.
你知道，我相信加州几乎每个人都吸大麻、喝啤酒，这是众所周知的知识，就像，你知道，我们是薄片或诸如此类的东西。
And we're all hanging out and partying.
我们都在闲逛和聚会。
And it suddenly hit me, when all my friends-- like, none of them have any intentions of growing up.
我突然意识到，我所有的朋友——比如，他们都没有长大的意图。
I was telling them, I'm leaving California.
我告诉他们，我要离开加利福尼亚。
I'm going to quit doing the party scene.
我要不再拍派对场景了
I was called "Queen of the Bonfires" because I had about four bonfires a week, or sometimes more.
我被称为“篝火女王”，因为我每周大约生四次篝火，有时甚至更多。
But I know I upset them that night because of the things that I was saying about how you're not going to grow up.
但我知道那天晚上我让他们感到不安，因为我说过你不会长大。
I've seen my mom does drugs still to this day.
直到今天我还看到我妈妈吸毒。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
So that bothers me.
所以这让我很烦恼。
I don't like it when parents are doing drugs.
我不喜欢父母吸毒。
Parents should not be doing drugs.
父母不应该吸毒。
And especially if their kids are sitting around, watching.
尤其是当他们的孩子坐在旁边观看时。
And having their kids get them a beer, what kind of crap is that?
让他们的孩子给他们买啤酒，那是什么垃圾？
If I-- oh, sorry.
如果我——哦，抱歉。
So all this is on her mind as she speeds along Interstate 40 in the middle of nowhere.
当她在荒无人烟的地方沿着 40 号州际公路行驶时，这一切都在她的脑海中浮现。
You know, driving along the road, I haven't thought about Jesus much, or God much.
你知道，在路上开车时，我并没有太多地想到耶稣或上帝。
I haven't found myself praying or thanking God for anything, until I saw the cross, until I pulled over.
我发现自己没有为任何事情祈祷或感谢上帝，直到我看到十字架，直到我把车停在路边。
And over there, I had to touch his face over there, and I got a really, really good feeling by just touching the statues.
在那里，我必须触摸他的脸，只要触摸雕像，我就有一种非常非常好的感觉。
Heather points at one of the statues of Jesus that circle the cross.
希瑟指着十字架周围的一尊耶稣雕像。
What did you see in the expression on Jesus's face on the statue?
从雕像上耶稣脸上的表情你看到了什么？
I mean, why did you want to touch it?
我是说，你为什么想碰它？
There's not so much as, like, pain in his face, but just kind of disappointment a little bit, or hurt, kind of like-- I don't know.
他脸上并没有太多的痛苦，只是有点失望，或者受伤，有点像——我不知道。
It looks almost like he blames himself.
看起来他几乎是在自责。
In the statue, what I get is that he was blaming himself at that moment, because he failed or-- or not failed, technically, but there's just something in his face, like he felt really bad at that time.
在雕像中，我得到的是他在那一刻责怪自己，因为从技术上讲，他失败了，或者——或者没有失败，但他脸上有一些东西，就像他当时感觉非常糟糕。
He's human there.
他在那里是人。
He's totally human.
他完全是人类。
And it just kind brings you back that God's not so far away.
它会让你回想起上帝离你并不遥远。
He's right there.
他就在那里。
If the cross had been smaller, I probably wouldn't have stopped.
如果十字架再小一些，我可能就不会停下来了。
And I mean, not like five feet smaller.
我的意思是，不小五英尺。
I mean, it's still huge.
我的意思是，它仍然很大。
It's 195 feet.
高度为 195 英尺。
But if it was the size of these little ones, I probably wouldn't have taken the time to stop, just because I want to get home, you know?
但如果是这些小东西的大小，我可能不会花时间停下来，只是因为我想回家，你知道吗？
I've been driving.
我一直在开车。
I've been on the road for three days now.
我已经在路上三天了。
When Steve first erected the cross, he didn't put in benches or statues or anything.
当史蒂夫第一次竖起十字架时，他没有放长凳、雕像或任何东西。
It didn't occur to him that people might want to stop.
他没有想到人们可能会想要停下来。
He only thought of it as a giant billboard.
他只认为这是一个巨大的广告牌。
But people did stop.
但人们确实停下来了。
And over time, it became clear that the people who stopped wanted something more.
随着时间的推移，很明显，那些停止这样做的人想要更多的东西。
They wanted to pray.
他们想要祈祷。
They wanted to talk.
他们想谈谈。
Often, they wanted help.
他们常常需要帮助。
Steve and his family found themselves staying at the cross, ministering to people in need.
史蒂夫和他的家人发现自己留在十字架上，为有需要的人服务。
There's now a staff of 14 on hand to counsel people and pray with them almost 24 hours a day.
现在有 14 名工作人员几乎每天 24 小时为人们提供咨询并与他们一起祈祷。
It's our last night at the cross, close to midnight.
这是我们在十字架上的最后一晚，接近午夜。
Floodlights on the huge wood structure surrounded by deep black in all directions.
泛光灯照在巨大的木结构上，四面八方都被深邃的黑色包围。
We watch a truck pull in.
我们看到一辆卡车驶来。
The driver comes down from his rig and approaches a counselor named Les [?
司机从他的车上下来，走近一位名叫莱斯的辅导员[？
Weatherling.
韦瑟林。
?]
？]
Yes, sir?
是吗，先生？
Eric Excuse me.
埃里克 对不起。
May I borrow your phone?
我可以借你的手机吗？
The driver, whose name is Eric, says he wants to borrow the phone so he can pray with his wife, who's sick back home in Oklahoma.
司机名叫埃里克（Eric），他说他想借用手机，这样他就可以和生病在俄克拉荷马州老家的妻子一起祈祷。
He doesn't reach her, so Les offers to pray with him.
他没有联系到她，所以莱斯主动提出和他一起祈祷。
They walk up to the crucifixion scene.
他们走向受难现场。
It's set off to the side, at the top of the set of white amphitheater steps.
它位于一侧，位于白色圆形剧场台阶的顶部。
They kneel and hold hands, and when Eric begins to pray, it's in the mix of English and Kiowa.
他们跪下并握着手，当埃里克开始祈祷时，他用英语和基奥瓦语混合着祈祷。
He's a Kiowa Comanche Indian and an Evangelical Christian.
他是基奥瓦科曼奇印第安人和福音派基督徒。
[SPEAKING KIOWA] Heavenly Father, we come to you.
[基奥瓦语] 天父，我们来找你。
[UNINTELLIGIBLE] burden to my heart.
[难以理解]我心里的负担。
Watch over my wife.
照顾好我的妻子。
[SPEAKING KIOWA] I have no-- whatever I have, please give it to her.
[基奥瓦语]我没有——无论我有什么，请给她。
Heavenly Father--
天父——
It's dark and lonely, and Eric is the only visitor at the cross.
黑暗而孤独，埃里克是十字架上唯一的访客。
When he's done praying, he tells us that he's stopped here maybe 150 times on his truck route.
祈祷完毕后，他告诉我们，他在卡车行驶途中曾在此停靠过 150 次。
Tonight, the reason why I stopped is my wife's liver and kidney's not functioning like it should.
今晚，我停下来的原因是我妻子的肝脏和肾脏无法正常运作。
And they don't know if they're going to go in tomorrow morning, need surgery or not.
他们不知道明天早上是否要去医院，是否需要手术。
You know, if everything's going real smooth, then the last thing you want to thing about's eternity.
你知道，如果一切都进展顺利，那么你最不想考虑的就是永恒。
And when the suffering's coming your way, you stop and think about, well, maybe there's more to it than this world.
当痛苦向你袭来时，你会停下来想一想，好吧，也许除了这个世界之外还有更多的事情。
So it's these suffering events a lot of times that turns us around.
所以很多时候正是这些痛苦的事件让我们转变。
When you first meet the guy who built the cross, Steve Thomas doesn't seem like the type that would understand suffering, with his picture-perfect family.
当你第一次见到建造十字架的人时，史蒂夫·托马斯似乎不是那种能够理解苦难的人，他的家庭也很完美。
He's been married to his wife Bobby for 31 years.
他与妻子鲍比 (Bobby) 结婚已有 31 年。
His son Zach is an All-Pro linebacker for the Miami Dolphins.
他的儿子扎克是迈阿密海豚队的全职业线卫。
And his daughter Katina, who recently married one of her brother's teammates, is a former Miss Amarillo who won the Miss Texas swimsuit competition in 1997.
他的女儿卡蒂娜最近嫁给了她哥哥的一位队友，她是前阿马里洛小姐，曾赢得 1997 年德克萨斯小姐泳装比赛。
But Steve's current family is very different from the one he grew up in.
但史蒂夫现在的家庭与他长大的家庭有很大不同。
His parents were both alcoholics, and his dad was sometimes violent.
他的父母都是酒鬼，他的父亲有时也很暴力。
This violence erupted one night when Steve was kid.
史蒂夫小时候的一个晚上，这场暴力事件爆发了。
There had been clues that something was coming.
有迹象表明有什么事情即将发生。
You know, he'd been reading the Bible every night.
你知道，他每晚都读圣经。
And my dad didn't go to church.
我爸爸也不去教堂。
We'd get up about 7:00, he'd been up since 5:00 reading the Bible, so we knew something was going on, but we didn't know what.
我们大约 7:00 起床，他从 5:00 就起床读圣经，所以我们知道发生了什么事，但我们不知道是什么。
Would you be willing to tell me just what happened the night that your dad--
你愿意告诉我你爸爸那天晚上发生了什么——
Well, he took a claw hammer after my sisters and my mother, and then came upstairs after us brothers, and by the time we'd heard all the commotion, we were awake.
好吧，他拿着一把羊角锤追赶我的姐妹和母亲，然后上楼追赶我们兄弟，当我们听到所有的骚动时，我们都醒了。
And my mother had to have a plate.
我妈妈必须有一盘。
Both my sisters had brain surgery, and my mother had brain surgery, and she had to have a plate inserted in her head.
我的两个姐妹都接受了脑部手术，我的母亲也接受了脑部手术，她的头部必须插入一块钢板。
How old were you?
你当时几岁？
Steve Thomas I was 17.
史蒂夫·托马斯当时 17 岁。
I was the oldest of five.
我是五个人中年龄最大的。
So we ranged from 10 to 17.
所以我们的范围是 10 到 17。
None of the kids died?
孩子们都没有死吗？
Steve Thomas No, nobody died.
史蒂夫·托马斯 不，没有人死。
But my sisters, they really were not the same.
但我的姐妹们，她们真的不一样。
They've had some trouble, mainly in their school and schooling and stuff with their grades.
他们遇到了一些麻烦，主要是在学校和学业以及成绩方面。
They didn't have the grades that us brothers did.
他们的成绩不如我们兄弟。
And I think it's because of injuries they had from that incident.
我认为这是因为他们在那次事件中受伤了。
Well, my dad shot himself, and he lived about 12 more days, and then died.
好吧，我爸爸开枪自杀了，他又活了大约 12 天，然后就死了。
Steve Thomas believes he was chosen by God to build the cross.
史蒂夫·托马斯相信他是被上帝选中来建造十字架的。
Quite literally, he believes he was selected, perhaps even intentionally molded with the traumas of his childhood, which didn't end with his father's death.
毫不夸张地说，他相信自己是被选中的，甚至可能是故意用童年的创伤塑造的，而童年的创伤并没有随着他父亲的去世而结束。
10 years later, his mother killed herself, too.
10年后，他的母亲也自杀了。
You see all these people driving down the Interstate.
你看到所有这些人沿着州际公路行驶。
The ones that drive by-- you probably have them in every lane-- hunky dory, everything's running real good in their lives.
那些开车经过的人——你可能在每条车道上都有他们——天哪，他们生活中一切都运转得很好。
They've probably got plenty of money.
他们可能有很多钱。
Everybody's healthy.
每个人都健康。
And they look at the cross and say, huh!
他们看着十字架说，啊！
Not bad.
不错。
And then they think about getting to the beach in California, you know?
然后他们想到去加利福尼亚的海滩，你知道吗？
But then you get the people coming down the Interstate that are trying to find out where they're going to get their next dollar, and their wife is suffering from cancer, maybe one of their sons is into drugs.
但随后你就会看到人们沿着州际公路来到这里，试图找出他们将在哪里获得下一笔钱，而他们的妻子患有癌症，也许他们的一个儿子正在吸毒。
And they're driving along, and they just whip in here.
他们一路行驶，然后就快速来到这里。
They don't know why.
他们不知道为什么。
Like I say, we ask them why, and they say, I don't know, I just came.
就像我说的，我们问他们为什么，他们说，我不知道，我刚来。
And that's because they're searching for something to change that.
那是因为他们正在寻找一些东西来改变这种状况。
They want suffering to go away.
他们希望苦难消失。
When he first built the cross, Steve thought of it as kind an advertisement for Jesus.
当史蒂夫第一次建造十字架时，他认为这是耶稣的善意广告。
He didn't realize that it was really a massive beacon calling out to the suffering and promising relief.
他没有意识到这实际上是一座巨大的灯塔，呼唤着苦难，并有望带来救济。
He started out wanting a billboard, but what he ended up with was kind of a church.
他一开始想要一个广告牌，但最终他得到的是一座教堂。
Josh Noel, here in Chicago.
乔什·诺埃尔，在芝加哥。
[MUSIC - "JESUS WAS A CROSS MAKER" BY CASS ELLIOT]
[音乐 - 卡斯·埃利奥特的《耶稣是十字架制造者》]
Coming up, factory workers at the epiphany plant, in a minute, from Public Radio International and Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续时，来自国际公共广播电台和芝加哥公共广播电台的顿悟工厂的工厂工人即将到来。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose some theme, bring you a variety of different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，每周我们的节目都会选择一些主题，为您带来关于该主题的各种不同类型的故事。
Today's program, during this Christmas season, Faith, people acting on their faith, people stuck in their faith, for better or for worse.
今天的节目，在这个圣诞节期间，信仰，人们按照自己的信仰行事，人们坚持自己的信仰，无论好坏。
We've arrived at Act three of our program.
我们已经进入了计划的第三幕。
Act Three, The Epiphany Biz.
第三幕，顿悟事业。
Bill Lychak tells this story of faith when it is held by other people.
比尔·莱查克（Bill Lychak）讲述了这个被其他人持有的信仰的故事。
And so the Lord says, go to Peoria.
所以主说，去皮奥里亚吧。
Give away all you possess and go to Peoria.
放弃你拥有的一切，前往皮奥里亚。
He says, if you desire to do my will, if you truly want to be my servants, go to Peoria.
他说，如果你愿意遵行我的旨意，如果你真的想成为我的仆人，就去皮奥里亚吧。
He says, I have a place for you there.
他说，我那里有地方给你。
And so, what do you do?
那么，你会做什么？
I suppose if the Word really comes and comes clear enough, you don't have much of a choice.
我想如果神的道真的降临并且足够清楚的话，你就没有太多的选择了。
You have to listen and do what God tells you.
你必须倾听并按照神告诉你的去做。
You have to divest yourself of every single thing you own, break the news to your friends and your family, your mother-in-law, neighbors, turn off the gas and electric, stop the mail, quit your jobs, pull the kids out of school, pack up a van, and leave everything and everyone you know, and head off to Peoria.
你必须放弃你所拥有的一切，把这个消息告诉你的朋友和家人、你的婆婆、邻居，关掉煤气和电，停止邮寄邮件，辞去工作，让孩子们辍学，收拾一辆货车，离开你认识的一切和所有人，前往皮奥里亚。
You drive all day and night and reach, at long last, the outskirts of town.
你开了一天一夜的车，终于到达了城郊。
You cross the town line and pull off by the side of the highway, the fields lying flat and covered with dirty snow.
你穿过城镇线，在高速公路边停车，田野平坦，覆盖着肮脏的积雪。
And you wait and pray, pray and wait.
你等待、祈祷、祈祷、等待。
I spent all morning on the phone with a man who did this, gave away everything and led his family to Peoria, sat at the outskirts of town as the light faded, his wife and kids shivering in the cold, the trucks and cars rushing past.
我整个上午都在和一个这样做的男人通电话，他放弃了一切，带着家人来到皮奥里亚，坐在城郊，天色渐暗，他的妻子和孩子在寒冷中瑟瑟发抖，卡车和汽车呼啸而过。
God had only directed him as far as Peoria, which is why they waited for the next directive at the town line.
上帝只指示他到达皮奥里亚，这就是为什么他们在城镇边界等待下一个指示。
And yes, it all sounds completely crazy to him, too, he says, which makes me like him.
是的，他说这一切听起来也很疯狂，这让我喜欢他。
He knows that this is beyond reason.
他知道，这是没有道理的。
He knows that it's a thing no one could understand, the fact that he and his wife both received word from God like this, and that God would be so specific, and that they would actually do it, give away everything and follow this voice to Illinois.
他知道这是一件没有人能理解的事情，他和他的妻子都这样接受了上帝的话语，上帝会如此具体，他们会真的这么做，放弃一切，跟随这个声音来到伊利诺伊州。
The story was sent to Guideposts, a religious-minded monthly where my job is to rewrite these true stories of hope and inspiration.
这个故事被发送到了 Guideposts，这是一份具有宗教思想的月刊，我的工作就是重写这些关于希望和灵感的真实故事。
It's not sold on newsstands, but the magazine has more than three million subscribers.
它不在报摊上出售，但该杂志拥有超过三百万订户。
For more than 50 years, the magazine has been rolling out its brand of Good News to the world, first-person accounts taken from actual events that are testaments to faith of some sort.
50 多年来，该杂志一直在向全世界推出其品牌的好消息，这些报道取自真实事件，是某种信仰的见证。
As the magazine's mission statement says, "Our articles present tested methods for developing courage, strength, and positive attitudes through faith in God."
正如该杂志的使命宣言所说，“我们的文章提出了通过对上帝的信仰来培养勇气、力量和积极态度的经过验证的方法。”
My job is to make sure that the story becomes a Guideposts story, make sure that it conforms to the expectations of our readers.
我的工作是确保这个故事成为路标故事，确保它符合读者的期望。
The story needs to have its all-walks-of-life beginning, its crisis or test of faith, its dark night of the soul, and its triumph of spirit, its turnaround.
故事需要它的各行各业的开始，它的信仰的危机或考验，它的灵魂的暗夜，它的精神的胜利，它的转折。
God's goodness, whatever that means, must shine through somewhere, some way, somehow.
神的良善，无论这意味着什么，都必须在某个地方、某种方式、某种方式闪耀出来。
In-house, we call this God factor in the story its cello, like the instrument.
在内部，我们将故事中的上帝因素称为大提琴，就像乐器一样。
And when line edits come back to us, we get directives like "more cello," or "less cello," or "where's the cello?" Everything is in the service of the cello, and the cello sets up the story's payoff.
当行编辑返回给我们时，我们会收到诸如“更多大提琴”或“更少大提琴”或“大提琴在哪里？”之类的指令。一切都为大提琴服务，大提琴决定了故事的结局。
Everything works out.
一切顺利。
They find their home in Peoria.
他们在皮奥里亚找到了家。
Or even better, they find their home wherever God wants them to be.
或者更好的是，他们可以在上帝想要他们去的任何地方找到自己的家。
The stories run the gamut.
这些故事包罗万象。
A guy rescues manatees in Florida.
一名男子在佛罗里达州拯救海牛。
A crop duster, or beekeeper, or fisherman survives some great accident, or addiction, or loss.
农作物喷粉者、养蜂人或渔夫在一些重大事故、毒瘾或损失中幸存下来。
Someone finds an unopened letter from World War II and forwards it to the widow.
有人发现一封未拆封的二战信件，并将其转发给寡妇。
A man goes to Peoria.
一个人去了皮奥里亚。
The variations are endless for us line workers at the epiphany plant.
对于我们顿悟工厂的生产线工人来说，变化是无穷无尽的。
In the epiphany business, each epiphanic moment is called the takeaway, and takeaways need to be short, sweet, and positive.
在顿悟行业中，每个顿悟时刻都被称为“外卖”，而“外卖”必须简短、甜蜜且积极。
Variations of the "I trusted in God, and that has made all the difference" theme.
“我相信上帝，这让一切变得不同”主题的变体。
Amen.
阿门。
Most of my days at work are filled with people who talk to God.
我工作的大部分时间都充满了与上帝交谈的人。
Help this, rescue these, give us that, thank you for those.
帮助这个，拯救这些，给我们那个，谢谢你们。
What made the Peoria story so fascinating was that God not only spoke back to these people, but that he got back to them in such a specific, puckish way.
皮奥里亚的故事之所以如此引人入胜，是因为上帝不仅对这些人说话，而且还以一种特定的、顽皮的方式回应他们。
I love the image of them on the side of that highway, wondering what to do next.
我喜欢他们在高速公路边的形象，想知道下一步该做什么。
They're all cold and hungry and scared and disheartened and dispirited.
他们又冷又饿，又害怕又灰心丧气。
And in the dark, they drive to that first cheap motel they see.
在黑暗中，他们开车前往他们看到的第一家廉价汽车旅馆。
The five of them stay until they're down to their last $12.
他们五个人一直待到只剩下最后 12 美元。
Again, their prayers are answered, and they find a church.
他们的祈祷再次得到回应，他们找到了一座教堂。
They place their last dollar in the collection plate and find a home that same day.
他们将最后一美元放入募捐盘，并于当天找到了家。
And so on.
等等。
It's a crazy, miracle-laden story which barely makes sense, really.
这是一个疯狂的、充满奇迹的故事，实际上几乎没有道理。
Yet talking to this man, he isn't the unquestioning fanatic that I had imagined.
然而与这个人交谈，他并不是我想象中的那种毫无疑问的狂热分子。
In fact, by the middle of our conversation, I'm convinced that something extraordinary has happened to him.
事实上，在我们谈话的过程中，我确信他身上发生了一些不寻常的事情。
I'm convinced that, in his own way, he heard the voice of God.
我确信，他以自己的方式听到了上帝的声音。
And I'm convinced he made a cold sweat leap of faith, and that he had doubts, and that he has a deeper faith now because of this test.
我相信他的信仰让他惊出了一身冷汗，他曾经有过怀疑，但由于这次测试，他现在有了更深的信仰。
I punch out that night with a glimmer of what it's like when what you believe and what you do are actually one and the same thing.
那天晚上，我突然意识到，当你所相信的和你所做的实际上是一回事时，会是什么样子。
And when I get the story back for revision the next morning, my editor has written over my cello-filled takeaway in big, block letters, "Preach it, Brother Billy.
第二天早上，当我把故事拿回来修改时，我的编辑用大写的大写字母在我的大提琴外卖上写下了：“传讲它，比利弟兄。
Preach it!"
宣讲吧！”
I feel like a whistleblower telling you this, these inner workings of the ghostwriter, the anonymous content provider, the humble commodifier of insight and faith.
我感觉自己就像一个告密者，告诉你这些，代笔作家、匿名内容提供者、洞察力和信仰的卑微商品化者的内部运作。
The sad truth is that I spend a couple of days on the Peoria story, and it's gone, and the next thing is on my desk, roughly one story per week.
可悲的事实是，我花了几天时间研究皮奥里亚的故事，但它已经消失了，下一件事就在我的办公桌上，大约每周一个故事。
Next week is Wedding Lady.
下周是婚礼女士。
The week after is Iwo Jima guy.
下周是硫磺岛人。
Yet still, there are worse ways to make a living.
然而，还有更糟糕的谋生方式。
In fact, it's a surprisingly pleasant kind of work, even for the more secular clock-punchers among us.
事实上，即使对于我们当中更世俗的打卡者来说，这也是一种令人惊讶的愉快的工作。
The fact is, I hear commands as well, vague and small-voiced.
事实上，我也听到了命令，但声音模糊且细小。
And I believe everyone I know hears them.
我相信我认识的每个人都听到了它们。
What, really, is the difference between "go to Peoria" and "make the film" or "write the book" or "marry the girl" or any of the countless passions that guide our days?
“去皮奥里亚”和“拍电影”、“写书”、“娶女孩”或引导我们生活的无数激情之间到底有什么区别？
These are all things my friends expend great amounts of energy working for and dreaming about.
这些都是我的朋友们花费大量精力去追求和梦想的事情。
And they're all acts of faith in one way or another, all the urges that carry us through our lives and give us meaning and help us make sense of the accidents that befall us.
它们都是这样或那样的信仰行为，所有引导我们度过一生的冲动，赋予我们意义，帮助我们理解发生在我们身上的意外。
And here comes the cello, when I think of it this way, when I think how we have to admit that the best in us is utterly mad, or starts out utterly mad.
当我这样想时，当我想到我们如何必须承认我们身上最好的部分完全是疯狂的，或者一开始是完全疯狂的时候，大提琴就来了。
A dim voice urging us on to our own kinds of Peoria.
一个微弱的声音催促我们前往我们自己的皮奥里亚。
Bill Lychak lives in New York.
比尔·莱查克住在纽约。
His story first appeared on the website openletters.net.
他的故事首次出现在 openletters.net 网站上。
[MUSIC - "THE BIBLE TELLS ME SO" BY THE JOHN MATTHEWS FAMILY]
[音乐 - 约翰·马修斯家族的《圣经如此告诉我》]
Act Four, First Be Reconciled To Thy Brother, and Then Come and Offer Thy Gift.
第四幕，首先与你的兄弟和解，然后来提供你的礼物。
The problem with faith is that often the faithful do not necessarily agree with each other about how to worship God.
信仰的问题在于，信徒们常常不一定就如何敬拜上帝达成一致。
Susie Putz-Drury tells the story of some people in that situation at a church in Tennessee.
苏西·普茨-德鲁里 (Susie Putz-Drury) 讲述了田纳西州一座教堂里一些人的故事。
When Bethel Presbyterian Church got a white minister, they started to worship differently.
当伯特利长老会有了一位白人牧师后，他们开始以不同的方式崇拜。
Lucy Cox has been going to Bethel her entire life, ever since she was an orphan and the church took her in.
露西·考克斯（Lucy Cox）一生都去伯特利，自从她还是孤儿并被教会收留以来。
When she was younger, Bethel was a place where you went to hear the gospel, to sing and rejoice and be moved by the Lord, moved almost physically, not just in your head.
当她年轻的时候，伯特利是一个你去听福音、唱歌、喜乐并被主感动的地方，几乎是身体上的感动，而不仅仅是在你的头脑中。
I used to sing top of my voice, because when that spirit really hits, I'm not Lucy.
我曾经用我的声音唱歌，因为当这种精神真正袭来时，我就不是露西了。
But now I do it my pastor's way, nice and quiet, when I'm here.
但现在，当我在这里时，我会按照牧师的方式行事，友善而安静。
But when I'm not here, I do it God's way.
但当我不在这里的时候，我就按照上帝的方式去做。
On some Sundays after services at Bethel, about half of the people from the congregation get in their cars and drive to another church, where they can sing the way Lucy Cox likes.
在伯特利的一些周日礼拜结束后，会众中大约一半的人会开车前往另一座教堂，在那里他们可以按照露西·考克斯喜欢的方式唱歌。
They've been doing this for 15 years.
他们这样做已经有 15 年了。
A little background.
一点背景。
In 1985, the Presbyterian church in Tennessee hired a young preacher to serve several churches in Dandridge, Tennessee.
1985年，田纳西州的长老会聘请了一位年轻的传道人，为田纳西州丹德里奇的几座教堂服务。
The minister they hired, Ralph Hutchison, is a slight, earnest, red-headed guy.
他们聘请的牧师拉尔夫·哈奇森（Ralph Hutchison）是一位身材瘦小、热心的红发小伙子。
Of the four churches Ralph was called to serve, three of them had entirely white congregations.
在拉尔夫被召唤服务的四个教堂中，其中三个教堂的会众全部是白人。
The other church was Lucy's church, Bethel, whose congregation is entirely black.
另一座教堂是露西的教堂伯特利，其会众全部是黑人。
And for about five years, this arrangement with the four churches worked out pretty well, with Ralph dividing his time among the four churches, preaching at each twice a month.
大约五年来，与四个教会的这种安排效果很好，拉尔夫将他的时间分配给四个教会，每个月两次讲道。
Ralph was also getting to be sort of an activist during this time.
拉尔夫在这段时间也开始成为一名积极分子。
He preached about the evils of racism and other social justice issues, and he got involved with a group in Knoxville that was protesting some of the US government's policies in Central America.
他宣扬种族主义的罪恶和其他社会正义问题，并加入了诺克斯维尔的一个抗议美国政府在中美洲的一些政策的团体。
The group was trying to show that the US government was causing the deaths of innocent people in the region, and Ralph ended up with a leading role.
该组织试图表明美国政府正在造成该地区无辜人民的死亡，而拉尔夫最终成为了主角。
We held a mock funeral designed to get publicity, and it did.
我们举办了一场模拟葬礼，旨在获得公众的关注，结果确实如此。
The TV cameras were there.
电视摄像机就在那里。
We carried a casket down Market Square.
我们抬着一个棺材来到集市广场。
And I was in the front of the procession in my clergy robe.
我穿着神职人员长袍站在游行队伍的最前面。
And so it was on TV.
电视上也是这样。
And a couple weeks later, I get a visit from the patriarch of the church, came in and sat down in the office.
几周后，教堂的主教来拜访我，我走进办公室坐在办公室里。
And basically what he told me was that he completely supported me politically.
基本上他告诉我的是他在政治上完全支持我。
He thought what I was doing was right, the policies of the government were wrong, no problem there.
他认为我做的是对的，政府的政策是错的，没有问题。
So I was kind of nodding.
所以我有点点头。
And he said, but people in the congregation are really uncomfortable when their neighbors ask them why they saw their preacher on TV.
他说，但是当邻居问他们为什么在电视上看到他们的传道人时，会众里的人真的很不舒服。
Ralph and his co-pastor found themselves being cast out of three white churches they had been called to serve.
拉尔夫和他的副牧师发现自己被赶出了他们被召唤服务的三座白色教堂。
In the end, the only church Ralph had left was the black church, Bethel.
最终，拉尔夫留下的唯一教会就是黑人教会伯特利。
We were crushed!
我们被压垮了！
Susie Putz-drury This is Roberta Robinson, who's been a member of Bethel since she was an infant, and is a church elder, like a deacon.
苏西·普茨-德鲁里（Susie Putz-drury） 这是罗伯塔·罗宾逊（Roberta Robinson），她从小就是伯特利的成员，现在是教会的长老，就像执事一样。
She says the congregation couldn't believe what the white churches did.
她说会众无法相信白人教会的所作所为。
And it was was one of their own.
这是他们自己的。
That's one thing we just couldn't imagine in a human, one human being treating another like that, especially Christian believers.
这是我们无法想象的一件事，一个人会这样对待另一个人，尤其是基督教徒。
I really felt for both Ralph and Dale.
我真的很同情拉尔夫和戴尔。
They were really just getting a little taste of what we as a people went through.
他们实际上只是稍微尝尝我们作为一个民族所经历的一切。
It was in a different form, but really it was the same thing.
虽然形式不同，但实际上是同一件事。
That's how we got stuck with him.
我们就这样被他困住了。
It did take some time, though, for both Ralph and the members of his congregation to get used to each other.
不过，拉尔夫和他的会众成员确实花了一些时间才相互适应。
Ralph is more liberal than they are, certainly on social issues.
拉尔夫比他们更加自由，尤其是在社会问题上。
His regular full-time job is as an activist against nuclear weapons.
他的日常全职工作是反对核武器活动家。
And the first time I went to one of his services, it was years ago, but I still remember being shocked to hear him refer to God, in passing, as a she.
我第一次参加他的礼拜是在几年前，但我仍然记得当我听到他顺便提到上帝时，我感到很震惊，因为她是“女性”。
Ralph also preaches about things like gay rights, and he says when he does preach on God's blessing of gay people and their love for one another, some in the congregation, the men in particular, just sit in the pews and sort of shake their heads.
拉尔夫还宣讲同性恋权利等事情，他说，当他宣讲上帝对同性恋者的祝福以及他们彼此之间的爱时，会众中的一些人，尤其是男性，只是坐在长椅上摇摇头。
Here's Roberta again.
罗伯塔又来了。
Well, I can remember I went to his-- well, I'll call it a trial sermon.
嗯，我记得我去了他的——好吧，我称之为试讲道。
And he was preaching, and I thought, What on earth is he talking about?
他在讲道，我想，他到底在说什么？
Here's Ralph.
这是拉尔夫。
Ralph Hutchison The congregation was responsive.
拉尔夫·哈奇森 会众反应积极。
During preaching, they talk back to you.
在讲道期间，他们会跟你顶嘴。
That was not an experience that I'd had before.
这不是我以前有过的经历。
This is Sue Pruitt, who stayed a member of Bethel even after she moved 30 miles away.
这是苏·普鲁特 (Sue Pruitt)，即使搬到 30 英里外，她仍然是伯特利的成员。
It was real funny when he first came here.
他第一次来这里的时候真的很有趣。
You know, we do a lot of singing.
你知道，我们经常唱歌。
And he sung good, but I guess kind of like a white person.
他唱得很好，但我觉得有点像白人。
He sings so hard now, you can see the veins in his neck.
他现在唱得那么卖力，你可以看到他脖子上的血管。
Puts a little movement to it, and a little beat to it.
给它一点点的运动，一点点的节奏。
So now he hangs in there.
所以现在他坚持住了。
Gradually, though, they began to settle into one another.
但渐渐地，他们开始彼此安定下来。
Ralph got married and had kids, and the congregation was thrilled about that.
拉尔夫结婚生子，会众对此感到兴奋不已。
They had potlucks and Sunday services and Martin Luther King dinners.
他们吃聚餐、周日礼拜和马丁·路德·金晚餐。
They even worked together to start an anti-discrimination organization in the county.
他们甚至共同在县里成立了一个反歧视组织。
But even though they're getting along great, there's still one thing that sort of separates them.
但尽管他们相处得很好，但仍有一件事将他们分开。
Ralph has changed the way they practice their own faith in their own church.
拉尔夫改变了他们在自己的教会中实践信仰的方式。
And it's here that the members of Bethel Church, and Ralph too, see race playing a role.
正是在这里，伯特利教会的成员和拉尔夫都看到了种族的作用。
This is Calvin Ballinger, the church patriarch.
这是卡尔文·巴林格（Calvin Ballinger），教会宗主教。
The black preaching style has a charisma, you would say.
你可能会说，黑人的讲道风格具有魅力。
There's times I like to get, all you say, the emotion of the gospel of the black churches.
正如你所说，有时我喜欢了解黑人教会福音的情感。
If it is emotion, he's hiding it.
如果是情感，他就会隐藏起来。
That's why I say, [UNINTELLIGIBLE PHRASE] emotion, I don't know if he ever will have emotion or not.
这就是为什么我说，[难以理解的短语]情感，我不知道他是否会有情感。
Emotion is good.
感情是好的。
That's good for the soul, you know?
这对灵魂有好处，你知道吗？
It means he's been touched.
这说明他已经被触动了。
Lucy Cox likes Ralph.
露西·考克斯喜欢拉尔夫。
She's close to him, gets a lot from him.
她和他很亲近，从他身上得到了很多。
But she says he doesn't bring her the main things she wants from her minister.
但她说他没有给她带来她想从部长那里得到的主要东西。
I think, for me, his role as a minister heat me hot with the Word of God, bring me the Word.
我想，对我来说，他作为牧师的角色让我热切地用上帝的话语来温暖我，把上帝的话语带给我。
If I can't stand it, then pull my shoes off.
如果我实在受不了，就脱掉鞋子。
Ralph's sermons aren't designed to heat anyone hot with the Word of God.
拉尔夫的布道并不是为了用神的话语来激励任何人。
He's not a big shouter.
他不是一个大喊大叫的人。
He's cerebral.
他很有脑子。
He writes out his sermons beforehand and then recites them word-for-word at Sunday service.
他事先写好讲道，然后在周日礼拜时逐字背诵。
He sounds a lot like Garrison Keillor at the pulpit, without the jokes.
他听起来很像讲坛上的加里森·凯勒（Garrison Keillor），但没有笑话。
He makes up stories about fictional characters to raise whatever issue he's trying to get people to think about.
他编造有关虚构人物的故事来提出他试图让人们思考的任何问题。
Last Tuesday, Marty Bryson made his way down the hallway to the fourth door on the left.
上周二，马蒂·布赖森沿着走廊走到左边的第四扇门。
He knocked softly and he heard Evelyn Morrison's voice say, "Come in." When she saw a Marty, she smiled.
他轻轻敲了敲门，听到伊芙琳·莫里森的声音说：“请进。”当她看到马蒂时，她笑了。
"My most faithful visitor," she said.
“我最忠实的访客，”她说。
I'm sure a quick excerpt on the radio just sounds corny.
我确信广播中的简短摘录听起来很老套。
It's hard to express, really, why this sermon was so riveting, but it really was, and not just for me.
真的很难表达为什么这次讲道如此引人入胜，但确实如此，而且不仅仅是对我来说。
He had us all.
他拥有我们所有人。
It was kind of like a spell being broken when he said "amen," signaling the end of the sermon.
当他说“阿门”时，就好像咒语被打破一样，标志着布道的结束。
People came back from the world he had sent us to, finding the page for the next hymn, shifting in their seats, getting ready for the offering.
人们从他送我们去的世界回来，找到下一首赞美诗的页面，移动座位，准备献祭。
Everyone tells me this is something they like about Ralph.
每个人都告诉我，这是他们喜欢拉尔夫的一点。
They like that he's smart, and they like to hear how he interprets the Bible.
他们喜欢他的聪明，也喜欢听他如何解释圣经。
And the stuff they don't like, they kind of shrug off, except when it comes to heating them hot with the Word of God.
对于他们不喜欢的东西，他们会耸耸肩，除非用神的话语来加热他们。
When Ralph first started at Bethel, one of the elders took him aside and tried to show him how to preach in a more dynamic way.
当拉尔夫刚开始在伯特利工作时，一位长老把他拉到一边，试图向他展示如何以更有活力的方式传道。
Ralph says it just felt wrong.
拉尔夫说这感觉不对。
I mean, I can mimic an Evangelical preacher, whether they're white or black.
我的意思是，我可以模仿福音派传教士，无论他们是白人还是黑人。
So I know what sort of the rhetorical patterns are of that kind of preaching.
所以我知道这种讲道的修辞模式是什么。
They're not particularly authentic to me, and wouldn't it seem weird to them if I stood up and preached a sermon using the cadences and the rhetorical devices of Martin Luther King Jr., except I'm this little white guy, right?
他们对我来说不是特别真实，如果我站起来用马丁·路德·金的节奏和修辞手段讲道，他们不会觉得很奇怪，除非我是这个白人小个子，对吧？
And so they would think, what's with that?
所以他们会想，那是怎么回事？
You know?
你知道？
For a lot of people, the emotional side of spirituality is the safe and the easy side, and they like to go there because it feels good.
对于很多人来说，灵性的情感方面是安全和容易的方面，他们喜欢去那里，因为感觉很好。
So you go there week after week.
所以你一周又一周去那里。
You go on Sunday.
你周日去。
You get that pick-me-up.
你会得到那种提神作用。
And it might last until Wednesday.
它可能会持续到周三。
And I think, more so now than I used to, I think that there is great value in having your life enriched by emotional spirituality and those experiences.
我认为，现在比以前更是如此，我认为通过情感灵性和这些经历来丰富你的生活是非常有价值的。
However, if that's all your religion is to you, then your religion is failing you in a great way.
然而，如果这就是你的宗教信仰的全部，那么你的宗教信仰就让你大失所望了。
[FIERY SERMON] It's a Sunday afternoon, about an hour after the Bethel service ended, and many of the congregants are at the all-black AME Zion Church, a few miles outside of town.
[激烈的讲道] 那是一个周日下午，伯特利礼拜结束后大约一个小时，许多会众都聚集在全黑人的 AME 锡安教堂，该教堂位于城外几英里处。
When I get there, I see Roberta and Sue and Calvin and others who regularly go to Bethel.
当我到达那里时，我看到罗伯塔、苏、加尔文和其他经常去伯特利的人。
It's hard to believe that some of these folks are the same people.
很难相信其中一些人是同一个人。
At Bethel, they sit pretty quietly during the service.
在伯特利，他们在礼拜期间非常安静地坐着。
Here they're bursting out with joy, so happy, completely happy, and unrestrained.
他们在这里爆发出喜悦，那么快乐，那么快乐，那么无拘无束。
The big difference between Ralph and his congregation is over more than style.
拉尔夫和他的会众之间的巨大差异不仅仅在于风格。
What several members patiently explained to me more than a few times is that the style means something.
几位成员多次耐心地向我解释的是，这种风格是有意义的。
It gets to basic differences in how you feel God, how present and alive He is for you in church, in music, in your daily life.
它涉及到你对上帝的感受的基本差异，以及他在教堂、音乐和日常生活中对你的临在和活跃程度。
And this leads to different answers to the question of what people want to get out of church, or out of any worship experience.
对于人们想从教堂或任何敬拜经历中得到什么的问题，这导致了不同的答案。
[GOSPEL SINGING] Roberta Robinson We as a black people, our religion, or their religion-- I'm referring to my great-grandparents and all-- that was really all they had to rely on, was their faith.
[福音演唱] 罗伯塔·罗宾逊 我们作为黑人，我们的宗教或他们的宗教——我指的是我的曾祖父母和所有人——这才是他们真正必须依靠的，就是他们的信仰。
And they would get so emotional just thinking about, well, I'm being mistreated here on earth, but I know that I've got something to look forward to.
他们一想到我在地球上受到虐待，就会变得非常情绪化，但我知道我有一些值得期待的事情。
And they would really, really get emotional about it.
他们真的会对此非常非常激动。
And you have to be black, I'm telling you, just have to be black, to understand that.
我告诉你，你必须是黑人，只要是黑人，就能明白这一点。
You'll hear him say, well, just hold on.
你会听到他说，好吧，坚持一下。
No matter how life is here, there's a better life.
无论这里的生活如何，这里都会有更好的生活。
Just hold on.
坚持住。
Now, you will hear that elsewhere.
现在，你会在其他地方听到这样的说法。
Other churches, yes.
其他教堂，是的。
But you're not going to hear that spoke and mentioned in the Presbyterian church.
但你不会在长老会教堂中听到或提及这一点。
So yes, there's a lot of difference, I feel.
所以是的，我觉得有很多区别。
Instead of talking about the afterlife, Ralph focuses on other things.
拉尔夫没有谈论来世，而是专注于其他事情。
Oh, he encourages this, you know-- He knows that there's injustice, and that we should, as a people, although we've suffered injustice, that we should work toward justice.
哦，他鼓励这一点，你知道——他知道存在不公正，作为一个民族，我们应该为正义而努力，尽管我们遭受了不公正。
Now, he stresses that an awful lot.
现在，他非常强调这一点。
Try to straighten out the world we're in.
尝试理顺我们所处的世界。
But I don't hear him-- I can't remember hearing him speak of the next world, not that much, not that much.
但我没有听到他——我不记得听他谈到过下一个世界，没有那么多，没有那么多。
It's not my job to save souls.
拯救灵魂不是我的工作。
Sometimes people think that should be my job, too, in my congregation.
有时人们认为这也应该是我在会众中的工作。
That's OK.
没关系。
But I think the Bible's very clear that salvation is a this-world promise.
但我认为圣经非常清楚地表明救恩是今世的应许。
It's not that Ralph doesn't understand what Roberta is talking about.
拉尔夫并不是不明白罗伯塔在说什么。
Ralph actually grew up in a Pentecostal church in rural Pennsylvania, a church that was all about the afterlife and stirring up emotions to a fever pitch, on schedule, every Sunday.
拉尔夫实际上是在宾夕法尼亚州乡村的一座五旬节教堂长大的，这座教堂的主题是来世，每周日都按计划将人们的情绪煽动到狂热的程度。
And many times, in our case, that emotional pitch was one in which the primary emotion was fear.
在我们的案例中，很多时候，这种情绪基调的主要情绪是恐惧。
You were to be afraid of God, who was angry with you because you sinned.
你要害怕神，因为你犯了罪，神对你生气。
You knew you sinned, didn't you?
你知道自己犯了罪，不是吗？
Well, yeah.
嗯，是的。
We knew we did.
我们知道我们做到了。
And God was going to get you.
上帝会抓住你的。
And so there's hellfire, there's brimstone, there's eternal damnation.
所以有地狱之火，有硫磺，有永恒的诅咒。
I think as far as they were aware, the sum total of what they were driving for was to save people's souls, so that people wouldn't burn in hell, so that people would go to heaven.
我想，就他们所知，他们所追求的总和就是拯救人们的灵魂，让人们不至于在地狱中被烧死，让人们上天堂。
It was all about that.
就是这样。
There wasn't anything about, necessarily, making your life better.
没有任何必要让你的生活变得更好。
This is Ralph's beef with a purely emotional service.
这是拉尔夫的牛肉，纯粹是情感服务。
Religion, he says, should give you real help with your everyday problems.
他说，宗教应该为你解决日常问题提供真正的帮助。
It's not that we wait and it all gets sorted out before the judgment seat on some great day in the future.
并不是我们等待，然后在未来某个伟大的日子里，一切都在审判席上得到解决。
It's here and now, this stuff is supposed to work.
就在此时此地，这个东西应该可以发挥作用。
I mean, where I grew up, we were in a lower middle class situation, people living really difficult lives.
我的意思是，在我长大的地方，我们处于中下阶层，生活非常困难。
If somebody had a difficult life that-- you know, a woman whose husband was running around on her, that wasn't addressed in church at all, except we might pray for his soul that he would get saved, he would get right.
如果有人过着困难的生活——你知道，一个女人的丈夫在她身边跑来跑去，这根本不会在教堂里得到解决，除非我们为他的灵魂祈祷他能得救，他会做对的。
The whole deal was, get your soul right with God.
整个事情就是，让你的灵魂与上帝和好。
The question I kept asking the congregants over and over at Bethel was, since he wasn't exactly their ideal type of minister, had they ever thought of getting rid of Ralph, like the white churches did?
我在伯特利反复问会众的问题是，既然拉尔夫并不是他们理想的牧师类型，他们是否曾经想过像白人教会那样除掉拉尔夫？
But everyone I asked gave me sort of a curious look, like I was asking a really strange question.
但我问的每个人都给了我一种好奇的表情，好像我在问一个非常奇怪的问题。
Before Ralph, Bethel hadn't really had a preacher in 30 years.
在拉尔夫之前，伯特利已经有三十年没有真正的传道人了。
And once they got Ralph Hutchison, they weren't going to let him go.
一旦他们得到了拉尔夫·哈奇森，他们就不会放他走。
It hadn't even occurred to them to get rid of him.
他们甚至没有想到要除掉他。
He was theirs.
他是他们的。
We really don't have much choice, meaning in the Presbyterian field, the Presbyterian church field, there's not that many black ministers.
我们确实没有太多选择，也就是说在长老会领域、长老会教会领域，没有那么多黑人牧师。
So we take what we can get, and it just happened to be a white minister.
所以我们拿我们能得到的东西，而恰好是一位白人部长。
For his part, Ralph agrees that Bethel might be better off with a black minister.
就拉尔夫而言，他同意伯特利聘请黑人牧师可能会更好。
Well, I think there's a number of reasons why it would be nice if they were able to have an African-American minister.
嗯，我认为有很多原因可以解释为什么如果他们能有一位非裔美国部长就好了。
It's still something the Presbytery should talk about.
这仍然是长老会应该谈论的事情。
They shouldn't assume that Bethel has nobody or they get a bleeding heart liberal white preacher to work part-time.
他们不应该认为伯特利没有人，也不应该让一个热心的自由派白人传教士兼职。
There ought to be more possibilities than that.
应该还有更多的可能性。
They should have him, and I should get out of the way so they can.
他们应该抓住他，而我应该让开，这样他们就可以了。
Laying it all out like this, I think it might sound gloomier than it really is.
就这样把一切都摆出来，我想听起来可能比实际情况更悲观。
The congregants at Bethel are getting everything they want from church.
伯特利的会众从教会得到了他们想要的一切。
They get the Word of God from Ralph, the Spirit of God from other churches, and a feeling of congregation from each other.
他们从拉尔夫那里得到神的话语，从其他教会那里得到神的灵，从彼此那里得到一种聚集的感觉。
Susie Putz-Drury in Campbellsville, Tennessee.
田纳西州坎贝尔斯维尔的苏西·普茨-德鲁里 (Susie Putz-Drury)。
Well, our program was produced today by Wendy Dorr and myself with Alex Blumberg, Jonathan Goldstein, Starlee Kine, and Diane Cook.
好吧，我们今天的节目是由温迪·多尔和我与亚历克斯·布隆伯格、乔纳森·戈德斯坦、斯塔莉·凯恩和黛安·库克共同制作的。
Senior producer Julie Snyder.
高级制片人朱莉·斯奈德。
Music help from Mr. John Connors.
约翰·康纳斯先生的音乐帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGMENTS] If you'd like to buy a cassette of this or any of our programs, call us here at WBEZ in Chicago, 312-832-3380, or visit our website.
[鸣谢] 如果您想购买本节目或我们任何节目的磁带，请致电芝加哥的 WBEZ，电话：312-832-3380，或访问我们的网站。
Or you can do that, or you can listen to our programs for free, www.thisamericanlife.org, right there.
或者您也可以这样做，或者您可以免费收听我们的节目，www.thisamericanlife.org，就在那里。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight by Torey Malatia.
[资金来源] WBEZ 管理由 Torey Malatia 监督。
His ways are mysterious.
他的行事方式很神秘。
None can know them.
没有人能认识他们。
He keeps commanding us--
他不断地命令我们——
Go to Peoria.
去皮奥里亚。
Give away all you possess and go to Peoria.
放弃你拥有的一切，前往皮奥里亚。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。