20: From A Distance - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #20 | May 4, 2001 20: From A Distance Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 20 集 | 2001 年 5 月 4 日 20：来自远方 注意：《This American Life》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Act One: In Search Of The Miraculous Different Voices From PRI, Public Radio International.
第一幕：寻找来自 PRI、国际公共广播电台的神奇的不同声音。
From PRI, Public Radio International.
来自国际公共广播电台 PRI。
From PRI, Public Radio International.
来自国际公共广播电台 PRI。
Public Radio.
公共广播电台。
Public Radio International.
国际公共广播电台。
Erika Yeomans knows when her search began.
埃里卡·约曼斯知道她的搜索是什么时候开始的。
It began when she saw a photo in a magazine.
一切始于她在杂志上看到一张照片。
The picture is this one.
图片就是这个。
It's this photo with his hand on his forehead and his eyes all squinted up with tears rolling down his cheeks.
这是这张照片，他的手放在额头上，眼睛眯着，泪水从脸颊上滚落。
At the bottom of the black and white photo is written in cursive lettering "I'm too sad to tell you." It was ironic.
黑白照片的底部用草书写着“我很难过告诉你”。这很讽刺。
It was charming.
很迷人。
And the man seemed unusually expressive and vulnerable.
这个男人看起来异常富有表现力，而且很脆弱。
I just think I'm intrigued because it shows a man crying.
我只是觉得我很感兴趣，因为它展示了一个男人在哭泣。
And you don't see that image very often.
而且你不会经常看到这个图像。
And you don't see a man letting himself have these true emotions.
你不会看到一个男人让自己拥有这些真实的情感。
And yet he kind of pushes it away a little bit by sort of writing on there "I'm too sad to tell you." And actually, there he is again.
然而，他通过在上面写下“我很难过告诉你”来把这件事推到一边。事实上，他又来了。
There he is again with his hair longer.
他又出现了，头发更长了。
You see now, you see the first version with short hair and then the second one with his longer hair.
你现在看，你看到第一个版本是短发，然后是第二个版本是长发。
And I prefer it short, out of the two photos.
在这两张照片中，我更喜欢它的简短。
I definitely feel much more attracted to the one where his hair is a little bit shorter.
我确实对头发短一点的人更感兴趣。
It looks very now, both-- the hair styles are very retro '70s now with guys.
看起来很现代，现在男士们的发型都非常复古 70 年代。
In fact, the photo was from the 1970s, an art photo by a virtually unknown Dutch artist named Bas Jan Ader.
事实上，这张照片是 20 世纪 70 年代的艺术照片，作者是一位几乎不知名的荷兰艺术家 Bas Jan Ader。
Erika read the article about him.
埃里卡读了关于他的文章。
And the facts of his life only enhanced the air of mystery and romance in the picture.
而他的生活事实只会增强画面中的神秘和浪漫气氛。
He did a kind of conceptual art, Bas Jan Ader, this conceptual art that involved a lot of physical challenges that he would set for himself.
他做了一种概念艺术，Bas Jan Ader，这种概念艺术涉及他为自己设定的许多身体挑战。
In one piece, he was photographed falling off the roof of a house.
在一张照片中，他被拍到从屋顶上摔下来。
In another, he falls out of a tree.
在另一张照片中，他从树上掉下来。
They're goofy, almost comical photos.
它们是愚蠢的、近乎滑稽的照片。
But other works of his, like the crying pictures, have a kind of wistful, longing quality.
但他的其他作品，比如哭泣的照片，却有一种渴望、渴望的特质。
There was just something very appealing about it and sad.
它有一些非常吸引人但又令人悲伤的东西。
And I felt like I identified with that longing.
我觉得我认同这种渴望。
And longing for what?
又渴望什么？
I don't know.
我不知道。
A searching for something?
寻找某事？
What is it?
它是什么？
I didn't know.
我不知道。
And I wanted to know what he was thinking.
我想知道他在想什么。
And his last piece he did was this triptych called In Search of the Miraculous , in which he disappeared.
他创作的最后一件作品是这幅名为《寻找奇迹》的三联画，他在其中消失了。
He was trying to sail the Atlantic in a 13-foot sailboat by himself.
他试图独自驾驶一艘13英尺长的帆船横渡大西洋。
And he disappeared, and his body was never found.
然后他就失踪了，尸体也没有找到。
And a year later, his boat was found capsized off the coast of Ireland, and it was this big mystery.
一年后，他的船被发现在爱尔兰海岸倾覆，这就是一个大谜团。
Well, from the WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life .
嗯，来自 WBEZ 芝加哥，这是《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass, back for another week documenting life in these United States.
我是艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass)，又回来一周记录美国的生活。
And today on our program, admiring someone from afar, trying to get closer to them.
今天在我们的节目中，欣赏远方的某个人，并试图靠近他们。
Act One, In Search of the Miraculous.
第一幕，寻找奇迹。
Act Two, 1,000 Miles to Miles Davis.
第二幕，迈尔斯·戴维斯 1,000 英里。
Act Three, Stalking Snuggles.
第三幕，跟踪依偎。
And Act Four, 1,000 Women Become Selena.
第四幕，1,000 名女性成为赛琳娜。
Stay with us, won't you?
留在我们身边，好吗？
When Erika saw the picture of Bas Jan, it had been a while since she'd had an adventure.
当埃里卡看到巴斯·扬的照片时，她已经有一段时间没有冒险了。
For years, she had been slogging away as director of a theatre company, an experimental theatre company that was perpetually strapped for cash, perpetually struggling to get reviewed and get attention.
多年来，她一直在一家剧院公司担任导演，这是一家实验性剧院公司，该公司永远缺钱，永远在努力获得评论和关注。
It was frustrating.
这很令人沮丧。
She needed a change.
她需要改变。
And seeing the picture of Bas Jan reminded her that life could be an adventure.
看到巴斯·扬的照片提醒她，生活可以是一场冒险。
I feel hesitant actually saying it just flat out in those words because so few of us carry the idea that life should be an adventure into our adult years.
我对是否要直接用这些话直白地说出这句话感到犹豫，因为我们很少有人认为成年后的生活应该是一场冒险。
And a lot of people think the whole idea is really silly.
很多人认为整个想法非常愚蠢。
But this is what Erika Yeomans believed.
但这就是埃里卡·约曼斯所相信的。
And Bas Jan, she thought, lived his life as an adventure.
她想，巴斯·扬的一生就像一场冒险。
He was handsome, sensitive looking, and he died for his art.
他英俊，外表敏感，为艺术而死。
And she decided she was going to find out everything about him, make a film or a document of some kind, even though she had never done anything like this before.
她决定要找出关于他的一切，拍一部电影或某种文件，尽管她以前从未做过这样的事情。
She was about to turn 30.
她即将年满30岁。
It was time for a rite of passage.
是时候举行成人仪式了。
Birthdays, certain birthdays are supposed to be these big moments.
生日，某些生日应该是这些重要的时刻。
They're supposed to be these big, pivotal moments in your life.
它们应该是你生命中重要的关键时刻。
And when I was 13, I had a birthday party called Farewell to Childhood, which I had all my girlfriends come over, and we had to dress like five year olds.
当我 13 岁的时候，我举办了一个名为“告别童年”的生日聚会，我所有的女朋友都过来了，我们必须穿得像五岁的孩子一样。
And when I think about it, it's really kind of a sick thing.
当我想到这一点时，这确实是一件很恶心的事情。
And it's embarrassing that I'm even talking about it, but who cares?
我什至在谈论它都感到尴尬，但谁在乎呢？
So at 13, I had this conceptual birthday party, basically, a performance conceptual birthday party.
所以在 13 岁的时候，我举办了这个概念生日派对，基本上是一个表演概念生日派对。
And then I had to have the whole thing costumed and done, because I had to get over my childhood.
然后我必须穿上戏服并完成整个事情，因为我必须克服我的童年。
And so I think 30 was a big year for me, because I kept thinking prior to 30 that something was supposed to happen when you're 30.
所以我认为 30 岁对我来说是重要的一年，因为在 30 岁之前我一直在想，当你 30 岁时，应该会发生一些事情。
I don't know what, but something.
我不知道是什么，但有一些东西。
Erika tracked down Bas Jan's widow in Los Angeles and decided to make a pilgrimage.
埃里卡在洛杉矶找到了巴斯·扬的遗孀，并决定去朝圣。
And rather than fly from Chicago, which she couldn't afford anyway, she decided she was going to drive.
她没有从芝加哥飞来，因为无论如何她都买不起，而是决定开车去。
It would be more like Bas Jan, she thought, more a test of will and physical endurance.
她想，这更像是巴斯·詹，更多的是对意志和身体耐力的考验。
And events conspired to make it more of a test.
一系列的事件让这更像是一次考验。
Her employer wouldn't give her much time off, so she would actually have to do the drive in two days, not three or four, which it usually takes.
她的雇主不会给她太多的休息时间，所以她实际上必须在两天内开车，而不是通常需要的三四天。
Part of my drive out there to LA in some stupid small way was my attempt to be by myself on a journey that, not that it has risk tied to it at all, and it's not really an athletic feat.
我开车去洛杉矶的一部分，以某种愚蠢的小方式，是我试图独自踏上一段旅程，这根本不存在任何风险，而且这也不是真正的运动壮举。
To drive a couple of days in a beat-up car by myself with a tape recorder and try to figure out if I'm going to be able to discover anything about myself, which I don't know if I did or not.
自己带着录音机开着一辆破旧的汽车几天，试着弄清楚我是否能够发现关于自己的任何事情，我不知道我是否做到了。
But I was sort of talking to the tape player as if it was, at first, my driving partner, and then second, it became like my therapist.
但我和录音机说话时，一开始就好像它是我的驾驶伙伴，然后，它就变成了我的治疗师。
And so then it became a journal by the 48th hour.
到了第 48 小时，它就变成了日记。
It became like my journal.
它就像我的日记一样。
Well, I've seen it all.
嗯，我已经全部看到了。
My arm is peeling.
我的手臂脱皮了。
My driving arm is peeling.
我的驾驶臂脱皮了。
My windshield wipers don't work.
我的挡风玻璃雨刷器不起作用。
It's foggy, and it's snowing.
有雾，还下雪了。
And I'm thinking about thick lips.
我正在考虑厚嘴唇。
When I was 18 and 19, I was like a Junior Mint.
当我18岁和19岁的时候，我就像一个少年薄荷糖。
For my life, the way I've jumped around to so many things, from so many different relationships-- Here I am 30, and I'm still not making money at what I want to do.
对于我的生活来说，我已经从很多不同的关系中跳来跳去做很多事情——我已经30岁了，但我仍然没有通过我想做的事情赚钱。
I started to suffer from a real sadness.
我开始感到真正的悲伤。
When I was recording myself, my thoughts, late at night, it started to get very depressing.
当我在深夜记录自己和我的想法时，它开始变得非常沮丧。
Because the way I'm doing it is backwards, the way I've done everything.
因为我做事的方式是倒退的，我做每件事的方式都是倒退的。
And so I'm thinking everything will come to a fruition when I'm dead, like, when I'm 70 years old.
所以我想当我死的时候，比如我70岁的时候，一切都会水到渠成。
And I kept thinking that this was all wrong.
我一直认为这一切都是错误的。
And I kept comparing it to Bas Jan.
我一直把它与 Bas Jan 进行比较。
Like how is this adventurous?
比如说这有多冒险？
How is this romantic?
这怎么浪漫呢？
What am I trying to teach myself?
我想教自己什么？
How am I supposed to grow from this?
我该如何从中成长？
I'm tired.
我累了。
I've had too much coffee.
我喝太多咖啡了。
I've had too many cigarettes.
我抽了太多烟了。
I haven't eaten anything that's healthy.
我没吃过任何健康的东西。
Everything has been in cellophane.
一切都在玻璃纸里。
It's like this whole thing of doubt, doubt, doubt, doubt, doubt and not knowing why I'm there.
这就像怀疑，怀疑，怀疑，怀疑，怀疑，不知道我为什么在那里。
And I'm stuck.
我被困住了。
I can't fly from wherever I am in the middle of Missouri or New Mexico.
我无法从密苏里州或新墨西哥州中部的任何地方起飞。
I have to finish it.
我必须完成它。
Slow down.
减速。
OK.
好的。
Wahoo, wahoo, wahoo.
哇喔，哇喔，哇喔。
I love this car.
我喜欢这辆车。
Please make it.
请做到。
I love you, car.
我爱你，汽车。
[SINGING] Driving a steep hill.
[唱歌] 行驶在陡峭的山坡上。
Whoa.
哇哦。
Where are the cowboys and the [UNINTELLIGIBLE]?
牛仔和[无法辨认]在哪里？
If you ask Erika how she pictured Bas Jan's trip, his transatlantic trip, in his 13-foot boat, she answers without pausing.
如果你问埃里卡她如何想象巴斯·扬乘坐 13 英尺长的船进行的跨大西洋旅行，她会毫不犹豫地回答。
I envisioned him catching his fish off the side of the boat and having a little mock up barbecue pit and grilling his fish and having his fresh water supply, eating very little, fasting for a lot of it, and writing a lot in his journals.
我想象他从船边抓鱼，然后有一个小模拟烧烤坑，烤他的鱼，有淡水供应，吃得很少，禁食很多，并在日记中写很多东西。
And perhaps he was going through questioning things, but I don't think he was doing it in such an alarmist way and a melodramatic way that I certainly sounded on the tapes.
也许他正在质疑一些事情，但我不认为他是以我在录音带上听起来的那种危言耸听和夸张的方式来做这件事的。
[SINGING] I don't care if my bright blue lights are on, because I need to see.
[唱歌] 我不在乎明亮的蓝灯是否亮起，因为我需要看。
See where I'm going to nowhere.
看看我将无处可去。
Erika drove 15 hours a day for two days.
埃里卡连续两天每天开车 15 小时。
And the third day, things melted down.
第三天，事情就崩溃了。
She barely ate, smoked nonstop.
她几乎不吃东西，不停地抽烟。
And though she had told her friend Margy that she'd arrive at Margy's house around 9:00, she didn't hit the nether-region outskirts of Los Angeles until 9:00, which may not seem like a big deal.
尽管她告诉朋友玛吉她会在 9:00 左右到达玛吉家，但她直到 9:00 才到达洛杉矶郊区，这似乎没什么大不了的。
It's millions of lanes of roads whipping around.
这是数以百万计的车道在旋转。
It's a Friday night, which of course, you know-- I pretend like there's not going to be any traffic.
这是周五晚上，当然，你知道——我假装不会有任何交通。
And of course, there was bumper to bumper traffic, cars going really fast.
当然，交通拥堵，汽车行驶得非常快。
And I'm just driving along.
我只是一路开车。
And I start to feel really woozy.
我开始感到头晕目眩。
And I get woozier as I go on.
我越说越头晕。
And as I'm getting into the actual city, and I'm looking for the exit for Margy's place, I start to have a panic attack, where I know I'm passing out.
当我进入真正的城市，我正在寻找玛吉住处的出口时，我开始惊恐发作，我知道我要昏倒了。
I've never passed out in my entire life.
我这辈子从来没有昏倒过。
I've never ever even experienced that feeling.
我从来没有经历过这种感觉。
And here I was, and I know I was passing out.
我就在这里，我知道我快要昏过去了。
And I couldn't stop my heart from pounding.
我无法阻止我的心狂跳。
I couldn't stop myself from-- just either I was going to vomit or I was going to pass out.
我无法阻止自己——要么我要呕吐，要么我要昏倒。
And I started to panic.
我开始恐慌。
And so I was shaking, trying to get off this freeway with cars whipping around me.
所以我浑身发抖，试图离开这条高速公路，汽车在我身边呼啸而过。
At this point, I was going about 30 miles per hour.
此时，我的行驶速度约为每小时 30 英里。
And I wasn't about to go any faster, because I was really frightened.
我不打算走得更快，因为我真的很害怕。
I was completely paralyzed.
我完全瘫痪了。
I couldn't get over to the exit.
我没能走到出口。
I finally weaved my way around with people honking at me, and they know I'm a tourist.
我终于在向我按喇叭的人们中迂回前进，他们知道我是一名游客。
They see my plates from Illinois.
他们看到我来自伊利诺伊州的车牌。
And I know they're saying all these things.
我知道他们正在说所有这些事情。
I'm waiting for the gun to come out.
我等着枪出来。
I get off the exit.
我从出口下车。
And I'm in some neighborhood that looks really desolate.
我所在的街区看起来非常荒凉。
It looks really scary.
看起来真的很可怕。
It's really dark.
天真的很黑。
There are no streetlights.
没有路灯。
And I start weeping.
我开始哭泣。
And I'm on the side of the street, just thinking I'm going to sleep here tonight.
我就在街边，想着今晚我要睡在这里。
I'm never going to find Margy's house.
我永远也找不到玛吉的家。
I was completely, completely, utterly frightened, didn't know what I was going to do.
我完全、完全、彻底害怕了，不知道自己要做什么。
I pumped up myself.
我给自己打气了。
I started to breathe, breathe, breathe.
我开始呼吸，呼吸，呼吸。
I ate some peanuts.
我吃了一些花生。
That was all I had in the car.
这就是我在车里的所有东西。
And so I got back on the freeway.
于是我又回到了高速公路上。
And meanwhile, during this time, I'm in my car and I keep hallucinating that I'm melting in my car and that my back of my car is melting into the freeway.
与此同时，在这段时间里，我在车里，我一直产生幻觉，我在车里融化了，我的车后部融化在高速公路上。
And so I keep--
所以我一直——
Hours late, she finally pulled over and called Margy, who came and retrieved her in her pajamas.
几个小时后，她终于把车停在路边，给玛吉打了电话，玛吉过来把穿着睡衣的她接了回来。
The next morning, Erika didn't want to look at her car, though she had to.
第二天早上，埃里卡不想看她的车，尽管她不得不看。
And I went outside and I noticed that my back rear tire had blown.
我走到外面，发现我的后轮胎爆了。
And that was why I was hallucinating.
这就是我产生幻觉的原因。
I wasn't hallucinating.
我没有出现幻觉。
Because my tire had blown and that's what was making me feel like I was melting into the freeway.
因为我的轮胎爆了，这让我感觉自己正在融化在高速公路上。
On their face, the facts of Erika's adventure do not seem like the stuff of myth.
从他们的角度来看，埃里卡冒险的事实似乎并不像神话。
A car drive three days long on the interstate highway system.
汽车在州际公路系统上行驶三天。
But what's remarkable about her story is that through sheer force of will, she turned it into the right of passage and test of endurance that she had wished for when she set out.
但她的故事的非凡之处在于，她通过纯粹的意志力，把它变成了她出发时所希望的通行权和耐力考验。
And once she recovered the next day, she called Bas Jan's widow, Mary Sue, and headed out to meet her.
第二天，她康复后，就给巴斯·扬的遗孀玛丽·苏打了电话，然后出发去见她。
I was wearing these very, very, very fluorescent yellow cigarette pants, my army combat boots, and my gas station jacket from the '50s, a very in jacket.
我穿着非常非常非常荧光黄色的烟管裤，我的军靴，还有我的 50 年代的加油站夹克，一件非常流行的夹克。
I thought I'd fit in with the scene and this art community.
我想我会融入这个场景和这个艺术社区。
At Bergamot Station, there are supposed to be all of these galleries.
在佛手柑车站，应该有所有这些画廊。
So I figured there would be a lot of groovy people.
所以我想会有很多时髦的人。
And I wanted to look as groovy as I could.
我想尽可能让自己看起来很时髦。
Mary Sue liked Erika and answered anything she wanted to know.
玛丽苏喜欢埃里卡并回答她想知道的任何事情。
And some of what she said was very different from Erika's pretty picture of Bas Jan as an ideal man, a romantic art hero.
她所说的一些内容与埃里卡将巴斯·扬描绘成一个理想的男人、一个浪漫的艺术英雄的美丽形象截然不同。
I went through the rudimentary questions, at this point, of trying to figure out what did he sound like?
此时，我提出了一些基本问题，试图弄清楚他听起来是什么样的？
How did he talk?
他是怎么说话的？
Was he political?
他是政治人物吗？
Was he not?
他不是吗？
And there were these very short answers to these things.
这些问题的答案非常简短。
But after about an hour or so of talking, she started to explain to me that he wasn't this perfect, beautiful creature.
但经过大约一个小时左右的谈话后，她开始向我解释说，他并不是一个完美、美丽的生物。
Because I kept saying, he's gorgeous.
因为我一直在说，他很漂亮。
And that's when she sort of said, "I can't paint him that pretty, though." Dot, dot, dot.
就在那时她有点说，“不过我不能把他画得那么漂亮。”点，点，点。
There were problems.
有问题。
And that's when she started to talk about open relationships.
从那时起，她开始谈论开放式关系。
And we sort of had a girl talk about open relationships and how they don't work and about the pain that was involved in her marriage.
我们让一个女孩谈论开放式关系以及它们如何不起作用以及她婚姻中所涉及的痛苦。
What happens when you admire someone from afar, partly because they seemed so sensitive and tragic, and then you find out they were sometimes kind of a jerk?
当你从远处钦佩某人时，部分原因是他们看起来如此敏感和悲惨，然后你发现他们有时有点混蛋，会发生什么？
In this case, Erika tenaciously held on to her picture of Bas Jan as a romantic, feeling man.
在这种情况下，埃里卡顽强地坚持着她对巴斯·扬的印象，认为他是一个浪漫、感性的男人。
And if you ask Mary Sue, she says there's something lovely about that.
如果你问玛丽苏，她会说这很可爱。
Yes, I'm sure Erika does have a romanticized view of who Bas Jan was and what he was, of course, like.
是的，我确信埃里卡确实对巴斯·扬是谁以及他是什么样的人有一种浪漫的看法。
I think, however, that's just perfect.
不过，我认为这已经很完美了。
That's what Bas Jan would have liked more than the real picture.
这就是巴斯·扬比真实照片更喜欢的。
I'm sure he wouldn't want me to explain too completely all the details.
我确信他不希望我过于完整地解释所有细节。
Now, one of the oddest things about this whole story is that Erika sees Bas Jan as a purer artist than she is, a truer artist.
现在，整个故事中最奇怪的事情之一是埃里卡认为巴斯·扬是一个比她更纯粹的艺术家，一个更真实的艺术家。
When in reality, she labors, mostly in obscurity, following a vision that's completely idiosyncratic, completely her own.
而在现实中，她大部分时间都是默默无闻地工作，追随一种完全独特、完全属于她自己的愿景。
A typical show of hers is filled with odd, striking images, lots of strenuous movement, elliptical dialogue, no story.
她的一场典型表演充满了奇怪、引人注目的图像、大量剧烈的动作、省略的对话，没有故事。
Some shows seem to have an unusual number of people throwing themselves on the floor.
有些节目中倒在地板上的人数似乎异常多。
The shows can be hard to sit through.
这些表演可能很难看完。
But from start to finish, they are clearly a labor of love and a labor of obsession.
但从开始到结束，它们显然是一种热爱和痴迷的劳动。
But to hear her talk about it, she has sold out compared with Bas Jan.
但听她这么说，与Bas Jan相比，她已经出卖了。
He was more concerned about-- I don't want to say art for art's sake.
他更关心的是——我不想为了艺术而艺术。
But he was more interested in what he was doing to himself physically and mentally by putting himself in these images and doing these different tasks.
但他更感兴趣的是，通过将自己置于这些图像中并执行这些不同的任务，他对自己的身体和精神所做的事情更感兴趣。
And I don't think he was that worried about if he was going to be a big famous artist, or if he was going to be a successful artist, because he didn't even take care of the work that he had.
我认为他并不那么担心自己是否会成为一名著名的艺术家，或者是否会成为一名成功的艺术家，因为他甚至没有照顾好自己的工作。
After he died, they can't even find a lot of his work, because it got damaged in a garage, because they didn't really take care of it.
他死后，他们甚至找不到他的很多作品，因为它在车库里被损坏了，因为他们没有真正照顾它。
Kristine McKenna writes about art for the Los Angeles Times.
克里斯汀·麦肯纳 (Kristine McKenna) 为《洛杉矶时报》撰写有关艺术的文章。
And she spoke with Erika about Bas Jan several times during Erika's visit.
在埃里卡来访期间，她多次与埃里卡谈论巴斯·扬的事。
This image of him as pure has more to do with something Erika needs than it has to do with the reality of him.
他纯洁的形象更多地与埃里卡需要的东西有关，而不是与他的现实有关。
Because Erika really is every bit the artist Bas Jan was in terms of intensity and single-mindedness.
因为埃里卡（Erika）在强度和专一性方面确实与艺术家巴斯·扬（Bas Jan）一样。
I'm not an authority on him, but I do know that he was just another guy hustling in LA like everybody else.
我不是他的权威，但我确实知道他只是另一个像其他人一样在洛杉矶忙碌的人。
Basically, I got the impression that she was just completely romantically enchanted with him.
基本上，我的印象是她完全被他迷住了。
And I don't know if she was really even looking for the facts of his life when she came out.
我不知道她出柜时是否真的在寻找他生活的真相。
It seemed more like some kind of mystical quest.
这看起来更像是某种神秘的探索。
And it was a very short history that he wrote.
他写的历史很短。
And that leaves her a lot of room to embellish it.
这给她留下了很大的空间来修饰它。
But I have to add.
但我必须补充一下。
I was very moved by this whole trip that she made.
她的整个旅程让我非常感动。
I can totally understand it.
我完全可以理解。
Because yeah, I thought there was something really beautiful about it.
因为是的，我认为它有一些非常美丽的东西。
I mean, she was the pure one.
我的意思是，她是纯洁的。
She's more pure than he was, I'm sure.
我确信她比他更纯洁。
There's something so innocent in her vision of him and her quest to come out here and get I don't know quite what.
她对他的憧憬和她来到这里得到我不知道是什么的追求是如此天真。
And then in the face of all the evidence that I feel she probably came up with here, she went back home with the same vision.
然后，面对我认为她可能在这里想到的所有证据，她带着同样的愿景回到了家。
I mean, that's really kind of stubborn innocence.
我的意思是，这确实是一种顽固的纯真。
And it's pure in that there's no way she's going to make money off this.
纯粹是因为她不可能靠这个赚钱。
She's not going to end up getting a date with the guy because he's dead.
她最终不会和那个家伙约会，因为他已经死了。
So she gains the purity of the obsession.
于是她获得了纯粹的执念。
Erika Yeomans collected footage from old Hollywood films and from Mary Sue to make a movie about Bas Jan.
埃里卡·约曼斯 (Erika Yeomans) 收集了好莱坞老电影和玛丽苏的镜头，制作了一部关于巴斯·扬 (Bas Jan) 的电影。
Her goal was to finish the movie by the time she was 33, the same age Bas Jan was when he set out on the ocean and disappeared.
她的目标是在 33 岁之前完成这部电影，与 Bas Jan 出海失踪时的年龄相同。
The film she made, In Search of Bas Jan's Miraculous , has played in galleries in New York and Amsterdam.
她制作的电影《寻找巴斯扬的奇迹》已在纽约和阿姆斯特丹的画廊放映。
Act Two, Meet Your Hero.
第二幕，见见你的英雄。
So what if you idolize someone and then finally do get close to them, actually become their friend?
那么，如果你崇拜某人，然后最终接近他们，成为他们的朋友，那又怎么样呢？
What happens to the romantic dream that you had of them?
你对他们的浪漫梦想发生了什么？
Well, Quincy Troupe first heard of Miles Davis back when Troupe was just a teenager.
昆西剧团第一次听说迈尔斯·戴维斯是在他十几岁的时候。
I was in this all-white high school.
我就读于这所全白人高中。
It was 3,500 kids, and there was only eight black kids that went to this school.
共有 3,500 名孩子，其中只有 8 名黑人孩子就读于这所学校。
And so I was trying to find some way to be hip at that time.
所以当时我试图找到一些让自己变得时髦的方法。
Troupe was in East St. Louis, and Miles was far, far away.
剧团在东圣路易斯，而迈尔斯却在很远很远的地方。
Part of what was appealing about Miles was the fact that he had begun in St. Louis himself and had gotten out.
迈尔斯吸引人的部分原因在于他本人是从圣路易斯出发并离开的。
And of course, Miles was a blueprint for hipness.
当然，迈尔斯是时尚的蓝图。
I was in a fish-fry place.
我当时在一家炸鱼店。
And I saw these four black guys sitting in this booth eating jack salmon sandwiches and dinners with dark glasses on and hats and their hair was conked and everything.
我看到这四个黑人坐在这个摊位上，戴着墨镜、戴着帽子，吃着杰克鲑鱼三明治和晚餐，他们的头发都是乱七八糟的。
So I thought they looked pretty hip.
所以我觉得他们看起来很时髦。
So I went and got my sandwich and sat behind them.
于是我去拿了三明治，坐在他们后面。
And at that time, they were talking about this homeboy from East St. Louis.
那时，他们正在谈论这个来自东圣路易斯的宅男。
And he was in New York City, and he was doing all these great things and playing all this great music and had played with Charlie Parker.
他在纽约市，他正在做所有这些伟大的事情，演奏所有这些伟大的音乐，并与查理·帕克一起演奏。
Who I didn't know any of this.
谁我不知道这些。
And they said, Miles Dewey Davis.
他们说，迈尔斯·杜威·戴维斯。
Miles Davis.
迈尔斯·戴维斯.
His name is Miles Davis.
他的名字叫迈尔斯·戴维斯。
And they went up to the record player and put in some money and played "Donna Lee." And I remember listening to "Donna Lee." And I said, wow.
他们走向电唱机，投入了一些钱，播放了“唐娜·李”。我记得听过“唐娜·李”。我说，哇。
I hadn't liked jazz up until that point.
在那之前我一直不喜欢爵士乐。
I was about 14, 15 years old.
我当时大约14、15岁。
I was into Johnny Ace and Chuck Berry and that kind of music, rhythm and blues.
我喜欢约翰尼·艾斯和查克·贝里以及那种音乐、节奏和布鲁斯。
And when I heard this music, for some reason-- they played it twice.
当我听到这首音乐时，出于某种原因——他们播放了两次。
And the second time, it kind of went straight to my heart.
第二次，它直击我的心。
I can't explain why it went straight to my heart, but I loved the music.
我无法解释为什么它直击我的心，但我喜欢这个音乐。
And I sat there, and they sat there for about an hour.
我坐在那里，他们坐在那里大约一个小时。
And then they left.
然后他们就离开了。
And when they left, I remember going up to the record player.
当他们离开时，我记得走向电唱机。
And I had about $0.30 or something.
我大约有 0.30 美元之类的。
It was a nickel to play those records.
播放这些唱片只需花费五分钱。
And I went up there, flipped through all those names, and found Miles Davis' name and played "Donna Lee." And I played "Donna Lee," then I played another one.
我去了那里，翻阅了所有这些名字，找到了迈尔斯·戴维斯的名字并扮演了“唐娜·李”。我演奏了“Donna Lee”，然后又演奏了另一首。
That's when I first heard Miles Davis.
那是我第一次听到迈尔斯·戴维斯的声音。
And then after that, my cousin told me how hip he was and showed me pictures of him and how clean he was.
之后，我的表弟告诉我他有多时髦，并向我展示了他的照片以及他有多干净。
I started seeing how well he dressed and what great style he had.
我开始看到他的穿着多么考究，他的风格多么出色。
How clean he was?
他有多干净？
Quincy Troupe Yeah.
昆西剧团 是的。
We used to say he was "clean as a broke dick dog," which was a saying that came out of St. Louis.
我们过去常说他“干净得像一只破烂的狗”，这是来自圣路易斯的一句话。
And so I said, wow, this is a guy that I really love.
所以我说，哇，这是我真正爱的人。
So I started really listening to his music at that time.
所以我从那时起就开始真正听他的音乐。
And it kind of changed my life.
这改变了我的生活。
And then I found some other friends who had been listening to him for a while.
然后我找到了一些其他朋友，他们已经听了他一段时间了。
And I kind of left my other friends and started listening to Miles and hanging out with them.
我离开了其他朋友，开始听迈尔斯的歌，和他们一起出去玩。
And we used to sit up in this stands at Sumner High School and say we were going to run away to New York and be like Miles Davis.
我们曾经坐在萨姆纳高中的看台上，说我们要逃到纽约，像迈尔斯·戴维斯一样。
So I remember the first time he came to St. Louis.
所以我记得他第一次来圣路易斯的情景。
There was all this big buzz about him coming to play there.
关于他来这里打球的消息引起了很大的轰动。
And I had doctored up my draft card, and changed all the dates and everything, so I could be old enough to get into the club.
我修改了我的选秀卡，改变了所有的日期和一切，这样我就可以年龄足够进入俱乐部了。
And I remember going to the pawn shop and getting these great suits and these Church's shoes, which were too small for my feet.
我记得去当铺买了这些漂亮的西装和教堂的鞋子，它们对我的脚来说太小了。
They were those really hip English shoes.
它们是非常时髦的英国鞋。
And I had this big Chesterfield hat, and I was really clean.
我戴着一顶大切斯特菲尔德帽子，而且我真的很干净。
But my feet hurt.
但我的脚很痛。
And my feet hurt because the shoes were too small.
而且我的脚很痛，因为鞋子太小了。
The shoes were too small.
鞋子太小了。
So I go to Peacock Alley with some friends of mine.
所以我和我的一些朋友一起去了孔雀巷。
And we get in.
我们进去了。
The guy kind of looked at me and said, are you really-- because I was really young looking.
那家伙看着我说，你真的吗——因为我看起来真的很年轻。
But he let me in, finally.
但他最终还是让我进去了。
He just let me in.
他只是让我进去。
And when that band hit, they were so fantastic.
当那支乐队开始流行时，他们真是太棒了。
They were so fantastic.
他们太棒了。
And Miles was so clean.
而且迈尔斯非常干净。
He was so clean and so hip that I was just mesmerized.
他是如此干净、如此时髦，让我着迷。
And so I told my cousin, who went with us, that I wanted to go up and say hello to Miles and tell him how much I loved his music.
所以我告诉和我们一起去的表弟，我想上去向迈尔斯打个招呼，告诉他我有多么喜欢他的音乐。
And so my cousin said, "Quincy, don't go up and say nothing to Miles, because Miles doesn't talk to people.
所以我表弟说：“昆西，别上去对迈尔斯什么也不说，因为迈尔斯不和人说话。
He doesn't like people coming up to him and talking to him.
他不喜欢人们走到他跟前和他说话。
So don't go up to him and say anything.
所以不要走到他面前说什么。
Just look at him from a distance."
只要远远地看着他就行了。”
So we kind of stood back and looked at him from a distance, all of us.
所以我们所有人都退后一步，远远地看着他。
It was a whole bunch of us, young guys and older guys.
我们一大群人，有年轻人，也有年长的人。
We had our glasses and everything on like he had his glasses on.
我们戴着眼镜，一切都像他戴着眼镜一样。
And we kind of looked at him standing at the bar, smoking a cigarette, drinking a cognac.
我们看着他站在酒吧里，抽烟，喝白兰地。
And from behind us someplace, I heard this voice say, "Oh, darling, there's Miles Davis."
从我们身后的某个地方，我听到这个声音说：“哦，亲爱的，那是迈尔斯·戴维斯。”
And I turned around, and it was this white guy with his girlfriend.
我转过身来，发现是这个白人和他的女朋友。
And I said, "Whoa, what is he going to do?" He said, "Let's go up and say hello." So he walked through us, "Excuse me, excuse me." And he walked up to Miles Davis, who was standing at the bar with Coltrane and all him.
我说：“哇，他要做什么？”他说：“我们上去打个招呼吧。”于是他从我们身边走过，“对不起，对不起。”他走到迈尔斯·戴维斯面前，他和科尔特兰以及他所有人一起站在吧台边。
He said, "Hi, Miles.
他说：“嗨，迈尔斯。
How are you?" And Miles said in that gruff voice, "Eff you.
你怎么样？”迈尔斯用粗哑的声音说：“你去吧。
Get out of my face," like that.
从我面前滚出去，”就像这样。
And I was like, "Wow." That was stunning.
我当时想，“哇。”那真是太棒了。
I had never heard anybody talk to anyone like that, let alone an African-American man say that to a white guy.
我从来没有听过任何人对任何人这样说话，更不用说非裔美国人对白人这么说了。
And I just said to myself, "Man, this is something."
我只是对自己说：“伙计，这很了不起。”
Now, when was the first time you met Miles as an adult, as the person who you are now?
现在，你第一次见到成年后的迈尔斯是什么时候？
Yes.
是的。
I was living in New York.
我当时住在纽约。
And my friend, Leo Maitland, who is now deceased, was a doctor.
我的朋友利奥·梅特兰（Leo Maitland）现已去世，他是一名医生。
And he was Miles' doctor.
他是迈尔斯的医生。
And he used to always say to me, "I know Miles Davis." I said, "You got to introduce me to Miles.
他过去总是对我说：“我认识迈尔斯·戴维斯。”我说：“你得把我介绍给迈尔斯。
You got to introduce me to Miles."
你得把我介绍给迈尔斯。”
So one day, he said, "I'm going to have this party." And I said, "OK." "You want to come?" I said, "Yeah." So I go to the party.
所以有一天，他说：“我要举办这个聚会。”我说：“好吧。” “你想来吗？”我说：“是啊。”所以我去参加聚会。
And I walk in, and I'm sitting around.
我走进去，坐在旁边。
And he had this great apartment.
他拥有这套很棒的公寓。
And I look over in the corner, and there's Miles Davis.
我向角落望去，发现迈尔斯·戴维斯在那儿。
I said, "My god, Miles Davis." And there was nobody sitting next to him.
我说：“天啊，迈尔斯·戴维斯。”而且他旁边没有人坐着。
His was the only seat in the house with nobody sitting next to him.
他的座位是屋子里唯一一个没有人坐在他旁边的座位。
So I went and got some food and I looked around, no place to sit, and went into another room, there wasn't no place to sit.
于是我去买了一些食物，环顾四周，没有地方可以坐，然后走进另一个房间，没有地方可以坐。
I came back, there was this seat.
我回来了，还有这个座位。
So I went and sat next to Miles.
于是我走过去坐在迈尔斯旁边。
So I remember him saying something like, "How are you doing?" I said, "Hi.
所以我记得他说了这样的话：“你好吗？”我说：“嗨。
All right." "Yeah, you sure?" I said, "Yeah." He says, "You see anything good in here?" I say, "What?" "Anything, man.
好吧。” “是啊，你确定吗？”我说：“是啊。”他说：“你在这里看到什么好东西了吗？”我说：“什么？” “什么都可以，伙计。
I'm talking about do you see anything good?" And I said, "There's some nice ladies in here." "That's right.
我说你有看到什么好东西吗？”我说：“这里有一些漂亮的女士。” “没错。
That's right.
没错。
You got a good eye."
你的眼光很好。”
So I said, "Yeah, I love your music." "I don't want to talk about my music.
所以我说：“是的，我喜欢你的音乐。” “我不想谈论我的音乐。
I don't want to talk about it." I said, "OK." So then we had this general conversation.
我不想谈论它。”我说：“好吧。”然后我们进行了一般性谈话。
And then he went and got some food, came back, said to me, "Later." And he left.
然后他去拿了一些食物，回来对我说：“稍后再说。”然后他就离开了。
So about two weeks later, I was walking down this--
大约两周后，我沿着这条路走——
Wait, wait.
等等，等等。
Can we just hold on that part of the conversation?
我们可以继续讨论这一部分吗？
Was this a kind of nervous moment for you?
这对你来说是一个紧张的时刻吗？
I mean, you're sitting there next to Miles Davis.
我的意思是，你坐在迈尔斯·戴维斯旁边。
What was your feeling during this conversation?
在这次谈话中你有什么感受？
I was totally up for it.
我完全准备好了。
I had no fear in talking to him, I guess, maybe, because by this time, I was starting to get a little play myself, as a writer, in New York.
我想，也许，我并不害怕与他交谈，因为此时，我自己作为一名作家，在纽约开始有了一些戏剧。
I was starting to get some ink.
我开始去拿一些墨水。
And I had a kind of feeling about myself at that point.
那时我对自己有一种感觉。
And so it was funny.
这很有趣。
We just kind of had this exchange.
我们只是进行了这样的交流。
And then when he got ready to leave, he just left.
然后当他准备离开时，他就走了。
He just left.
他刚刚离开。
But he came over to me and said, "Later." So I thought it was some kind of indication that he liked the conversation or whatever.
但他走过来对我说：“稍后再说。”所以我认为这是某种迹象表明他喜欢这次谈话或其他什么。
And so about three weeks later, I was walking down Broadway.
大约三周后，我沿着百老汇漫步。
And here he comes walking straight towards me.
他径直朝我走来。
And I said, "Oh, that's Miles Davis." So when he got up next to me, I said, "Hey, Miles.
我说：“哦，那是迈尔斯·戴维斯。”所以当他站到我旁边时，我说：“嘿，迈尔斯。
How you doing?" He walked right by me.
你怎么样？”他从我身边走过。
Like I didn't even exist.
就像我根本不存在一样。
Like I wasn't even on the planet.
就好像我根本就不在这个星球上一样。
I mean, he didn't even nod, or nothing.
我的意思是，他甚至没有点头，或者什么也没有。
He just walked right by me.
他刚刚从我身边走过。
And I stopped.
我停了下来。
I remember stopping, and I kind of looked back and said, "Wow, was that Miles Davis?" And it was.
我记得停下来，回头看了一眼，说道：“哇，那是迈尔斯·戴维斯吗？”确实如此。
I said, "Yeah, that's him.
我说：“是的，就是他。
But he didn't speak." I said, "Hey, Miles." And he didn't even turn around.
但他没有说话。”我说：“嘿，迈尔斯。”而他甚至没有回头。
He just kept going.
他只是继续前进。
So I said, "Wow, that was kind of cold." I mean, that was kind of cold.
所以我说：“哇，有点冷。”我的意思是，那有点冷。
It was like, I had never experienced that before in my life.
就好像，我一生中从未经历过这种情况。
And so when I got to know him, I finally got to know him real well, when I did the Spin Magazine .
所以当我认识他时，当我做《旋转》杂志时，我终于真正了解了他。
I did a two-part piece for Spin Magazine.
我为 Spin Magazine 做了两部分的文章。
And when I walked in his place, he looked at me and he kind of said, "Yeah, sit down." So I sit down.
当我走到他的位置时，他看着我，说道：“是的，坐下吧。”所以我坐下来。
And I remember him reaching out with his hand to grab my dreadlocks.
我记得他伸出手抓住我的辫子。
And I hit his hand.
然后我打了他的手。
Pow.
战俘。
And he said, "What are you, crazy?
他说：“你疯了吗？
What are you crazy, hitting me like that?"
你发什么疯，这么打我？”
I said, "No, man." I said, "Because I'm over here to interview you doesn't mean that you have the right to invade my space." I said, "Plus, the other times that I tried to talk to you, you just shined me on." He said, "Oh, you mean the time out on the street?
我说：“不，伙计。”我说：“我来这里采访你，并不意味着你就有权侵入我的空间。”我说：“另外，其他时候我试图和你说话，你只是让我眼前一亮。”他说：“哦，你是说在街上的时间吗？
The time out on the street?" I said, "Yeah." He said, "Man, I don't have to talk to you, man.
逛街的时间？”我说：“是啊。”他说：“伙计，我不需要和你说话，伙计。
I didn't have to talk to you.
我本来不必和你说话的。
What you got to talk about this time?"
这次有什么话要说？”
And that's the way it started.
事情就是这样开始的。
And we got to be the best of friends until he died.
我们必须成为最好的朋友，直到他去世。
But Miles was always testing you.
但迈尔斯总是在考验你。
He was always testing you.
他总是在考验你。
He was the kind of guy-- and I loved him because he was always the kind of a guy that was always testing you.
他是那种人——我爱他，因为他总是那种总是在考验你的人。
And if you passed the muster, if you could stand up to him, then if he liked you, he would bring you in.
如果你通过了考验，如果你能对抗他，那么如果他喜欢你，他就会带你进来。
If you couldn't, he'd just run over you, you know?
如果你做不到，他就会从你身上碾过去，知道吗？
More with Miles Davis and Quincy Troupe.
迈尔斯·戴维斯和昆西剧团出演的更多作品。
Also Snuggles the fabric softener bear and 1,000 Selenas.
还依偎着织物柔软剂小熊和 1,000 个赛琳娜。
That's in a minute, from Public Radio International when our program continues.
稍后，国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life .
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Quincy Troupe spent three years collaborating with Miles Davis on Davis' autobiography, talking to Davis and interviewing him, actually, until Davis got sick of being interviewed, to create a book written in Miles' voice and syntax.
昆西·特鲁普花了三年时间与迈尔斯·戴维斯合作撰写戴维斯的自传，与戴维斯交谈并采访他，实际上，直到戴维斯厌倦了接受采访，才创作了一本以迈尔斯的声音和句法写成的书。
It sold over 1 million copies.
它的销量超过 100 万份。
And if you ask Quincy, when did he stop seeing Miles Davis as the mythic, legendary figure and start seeing him as just another friend, he really can't tell you.
如果你问昆西，他什么时候不再将迈尔斯·戴维斯视为神话般的传奇人物，而开始将他视为另一个朋友，他真的无法告诉你。
It was gradual.
这是渐进的。
One day he was on the outside of Miles' life looking in.
有一天，他站在迈尔斯生活的外面，向内看。
And then at some point later, he realized that he was on the inside.
后来的某个时刻，他意识到自己已经在里面了。
You know, I got very up close with Miles.
你知道，我和迈尔斯的关系非常密切。
I mean, I was in his pocket and he was in my pocket for two and a half, three years.
我的意思是，我在他的口袋里，他在我的口袋里呆了两年半、三年。
Until the time he died.
直到他去世的时候。
I mean, I was really close to him.
我的意思是，我和他真的很亲近。
And so I saw flaws in his personality that-- because I think when you idolize a person like him-- like he was one of my heroes-- especially when you're young, you don't think they have flaws.
所以我看到了他性格中的缺陷——因为我认为当你崇拜像他这样的人时——就像他是我的英雄之一一样——尤其是当你年轻的时候，你不会认为他们有缺陷。
You kind of see them through these rose-tinted glasses.
你可以透过玫瑰色眼镜来看待他们。
And you kind of look at them as perfect.
你认为它们是完美的。
And so when I started to see some things that was not perfect about Miles, like his way of treating women and his way of treating other people sometimes and little small things, like cleanliness sometimes.
因此，当我开始看到迈尔斯的一些不完美的地方时，比如他对待女性的方式，有时对待其他人的方式，以及一些小事情，比如有时的清洁。
You know, cleanliness is coming up in this interview a lot more than I ever would have guessed.
你知道，这次采访中提到的清洁度比我想象的要多得多。
Well, Miles was a clean person.
嗯，迈尔斯是一个干净的人。
In terms of his body and the way he dressed, but there were a couple of times when I went over his house one day-- I went over to his house one day, and it was a mess.
就他的身体，他的穿着，但是有几次我有一天去他家，有一天我去他家，那里一团糟。
I mean, stuff was everywhere.
我的意思是，东西到处都是。
Clothes, toothbrush, toothpaste, music, trumpets.
衣服、牙刷、牙膏、音乐、喇叭。
And I said, "Miles, man," I said, "Miles, you living like a pig, man." I said, "You're living like a pig, man.
我说，“迈尔斯，伙计，”我说，“迈尔斯，你活得像头猪一样。”我说：“你活得像头猪一样。
This is a pigsty." He said, "So what?
这是一个猪圈。”他说：“那又怎样？
So what?
那又怎么样？
So what, it's a pigsty?
那又怎么样，这是猪圈吗？
What did you expect?
你期待什么？
I just play music, chump." He said, "Somebody cleans it up.
我只是玩音乐，笨蛋。”他说：“有人清理它。
That's the deal."
就是这样。”
Well, I would see some of that.
嗯，我会看到其中的一些。
And first I would say, man this guy could be a pig, you know?
首先我要说，伙计，这家伙可能是头猪，你知道吗？
But then, I got to the point where I said, no, he's just a human being.
但后来我说，不，他只是一个人。
He's a human being.
他是一个人。
He has flaws.
他有缺点。
He plays beautiful music.
他演奏优美的音乐。
But he had these little areas where he was just a human being, where he was flawed.
但他也有一些小地方，他只是一个人，有缺陷。
Like, I never thought Miles would be as country as he was.
就像，我从没想过迈尔斯会像他一样乡村。
You know, what I mean by country.
你知道，我所说的国家是什么意思。
I mean country-country, like a Southern-- instead of a jazz musician, when you got to know Miles, like some elegant jazz musician, Miles was like a country blues singer.
我的意思是乡村，就像南方人一样，当你了解迈尔斯时，他不像一位爵士音乐家，就像一些优雅的爵士音乐家，迈尔斯就像一位乡村蓝调歌手。
When was it that you first saw that side of him really clearly?
你第一次真正看清他的那一面是什么时候？
When I was doing the book, and I was about three or four months in, when he started dropping the mask.
当我写这本书的时候，大约三四个月后，他开始摘下面具。
And he'd just drop the mask.
然后他就会摘下面具。
And I'd come by, and he'd have food.
我过来，他就会吃东西。
And he'd cook for me.
他还会给我做饭。
And we'd look at boxing matches and look at the basketball games.
我们会观看拳击比赛和篮球比赛。
And at first, when I would go over there, he would always be dressed elegantly in very fashionable stuff.
起初，当我去那里时，他总是穿着非常时尚的优雅服装。
And then after that, he started dressing just really casually.
从那以后，他开始穿得非常随意。
And especially on the West Coast.
尤其是在西海岸。
When I'd go up there, he'd have on blue jeans, a torn sweater.
当我去那里时，他穿着蓝色牛仔裤和一件破毛衣。
And he would just cook.
他只会做饭。
And we'd just sit there and look and tell lies.
我们只是坐在那里看着并撒谎。
And he'd listen to the fights.
他会听打斗的声音。
And we'd go for long walks on the beach.
我们会在海滩上长时间散步。
And he'd take me for rides in his car.
他会开他的车带我去兜风。
So it was just a beautiful kind of relationship.
所以这是一种美好的关系。
As a matter of fact, I told him, I said, "You know, when you're in California, you're much different than you are in New York." And he said, "Yeah." After a while, he acknowledged that.
事实上，我告诉他，我说，“你知道，当你在加利福尼亚时，你和在纽约有很大不同。”他说：“是的。”过了一会儿，他承认了这一点。
He said, "Yeah, because in New York, I've got to keep my mask up." I said, "Yeah, that's right.
他说：“是的，因为在纽约，我必须戴上口罩。”我说：“是的，没错。
You got to keep it up."
你必须坚持下去。”
When did you first figure out about the way he was treating women?
你什么时候第一次了解到他对待女性的方式？
When did you first figure out that he was kind of abusive?
你什么时候第一次发现他有虐待倾向？
Well, when I started to hear some of the stories.
好吧，当我开始听到一些故事时。
Because Miles was brutally honest.
因为迈尔斯非常诚实。
He was brutally honest when he did that book.
当他写那本书时，他非常诚实。
I remember he was telling me the stories of him beating up these women and chasing his wife around the basement of their house with a knife and a gun.
我记得他给我讲过他殴打这些妇女，并拿着刀和枪在他们家的地下室追赶他的妻子的故事。
And so I started to think to myself, wow, this is ouch.
所以我开始对自己想，哇，这太糟糕了。
I mean, this is a strange kind of situation, because I'm just the opposite.
我的意思是，这是一种奇怪的情况，因为我恰恰相反。
I don't believe in hitting women.
我不相信打女人。
I don't believe in hitting anybody like that.
我不相信这样打人。
But I figured out that Miles Davis was the kind of person-- he wasn't an intellectual, where he could respond and talk it out, talk the whole thing through.
但我发现迈尔斯·戴维斯是这样的人——他不是一个知识分子，他可以回应并说出来，把整个事情都说清楚。
So if you got up in his face, whether you were a man or a woman, he would hit you.
所以如果你当着他的面站起来，无论你是男人还是女人，他都会打你。
That was the way he was.
他就是这样的。
I mean, he would hit you.
我的意思是，他会打你。
I can be truthful and say I didn't like the way he did certain things.
我可以诚实地说我不喜欢他做某些事情的方式。
But then at the same time, we who knew him really well knew that he was a warm and generous person to us.
但与此同时，我们这些非常了解他的人也知道他对我们来说是一个热情而慷慨的人。
And we'd look at those things and say, hey man, that was kind of cold what he did there.
我们看着这些东西会说，嘿，伙计，他在那里所做的事情有点冷。
But the way I looked at it, I'd say, well, that's between him and that person.
但从我的角度来看，我会说，好吧，这是他和那个人之间的事情。
I never saw him hit a woman in front of me.
我从来没有见过他当着我的面打女人。
Because you've got to remember, I knew him from 1985 until he died, which was a period of six years.
因为你必须记住，我从1985年认识他直到他去世，这段时间有六年。
And so when he was in his most desperately insane period of really doing these kind of things to women, this was from 1968 to 1980, 12 years.
所以当他真正对女人做这些事情的最疯狂的时候，就是从1968年到1980年，整整12年。
And I didn't know him then.
而且当时我还不认识他。
So I never saw that.
所以我从来没有看到过。
Would there be an occasional moment sometimes, once you got to be friends with him, where it would suddenly strike you, man, I'm friends with Miles Davis?
有时候，一旦你和他成为朋友，你会突然想到，我和迈尔斯·戴维斯是朋友吗？
When it would generally happen was when somebody would come up to me and say to me, "Man, what is it like to be with Miles Davis?
通常这种情况会发生在有人走过来对我说：“伙计，和迈尔斯·戴维斯在一起感觉怎么样？
You know, I always wanted to be with Miles Davis." And then I would think, whoa.
你知道，我一直想和迈尔斯·戴维斯在一起。”然后我会想，哇。
But for me, after it got to a certain level, I never thought about it.
但对我来说，到了一定程度之后，我就不再考虑这个问题了。
Because we just had this natural relationship.
因为我们只是有这种自然的关系。
He'd call me up or I'd call him up.
他会打电话给我，或者我会打电话给他。
I remember telling somebody one time, Miles called me up from Japan.
我记得有一次告诉别人，迈尔斯从日本给我打电话。
He had just taped this new thing.
他刚刚录下了这个新东西。
And he said, "What do you think of this?" And he put it on.
他说：“你对此有何看法？”他穿上了它。
And he played for about five minutes.
他演奏了大约五分钟。
And he said, "What did you think?" And I would tell him whether I liked it or I didn't.
他说：“你觉得怎么样？”我会告诉他我是否喜欢它。
If I didn't like it, I would tell him I didn't like it.
如果我不喜欢，我会告诉他我不喜欢。
And I was relating this to somebody.
我正在将这件事与某人联系起来。
And they said, "You mean Miles Davis calls you up, and puts on the tape, and you listen to it?" And I said, "Yeah." He says, "Well, what's that like?" I said, "I guess it's like any one of my friends who is a poet, who will say 'listen to this poem,' you know what I mean?
他们说：“你的意思是迈尔斯·戴维斯给你打电话，放上录音带，然后你听？”我说：“是的。”他说：“嗯，那是什么样的？”我说：“我想这就像我的一位诗人朋友会说‘听这首诗’，你明白我的意思吗？
It just so happens it's Miles Davis' music, and he happens to be internationally famous."
碰巧这是迈尔斯·戴维斯的音乐，而他恰好是国际知名的。”
Many public figures up close lose the larger-than-life quality that they seem to have from afar.
许多公众人物在近距离看时失去了他们在远处看起来具有传奇色彩的品质。
But there's something about Miles Davis that even today, even though Quincy Troupe was as close to Miles Davis as he's ever been to anybody in his life, that even today it's easy for Quincy to see Miles as this mythic figure.
但迈尔斯·戴维斯身上有一种东西，即使在今天，尽管昆西剧团与迈尔斯·戴维斯的关系是他一生中与任何人的亲密程度，但即使在今天，昆西也很容易将迈尔斯视为这个神话人物。
He says Miles just had this effect on people.
他说迈尔斯对人们产生了这种影响。
I remember one time, I was with him-- I can't remember the Japanese, it was not [?
我记得有一次，我和他在一起——我不记得日语了，那不是[？
Miashi, ?] but it was another Japanese designer.
Miashi，？]但这是另一位日本设计师。
And he had his clothes in New York.
他的衣服是在纽约的。
And he had his clothes, and he had Andy Warhol, before Andy Warhol died, and Miles Davis modeling as the star models of the clothes, along with all these beautiful, gorgeous women.
他有他的衣服，他有安迪·沃霍尔（Andy Warhol），在安迪·沃霍尔去世之前，迈尔斯·戴维斯（Miles Davis）担任服装的明星模特，还有所有这些美丽、华丽的女人。
So Miles called me and said, "Do you want to go down with me?" I said, "Yeah, I'll go with you."
于是迈尔斯打电话给我说：“你想和我一起下去吗？”我说：“是啊，我跟你一起去。”
So we go in this place called The Tunnel.
所以我们进入了这个叫做隧道的地方。
It was some kind of a discotheque.
这是某种迪斯科舞厅。
So we're in there and they're modeling the clothes, and everybody's going out.
所以我们在那里，他们正在做服装模特，然后每个人都出去了。
Miles would walk out.
迈尔斯会走出去。
Andy Warhol would walk out.
安迪·沃霍尔会走出去。
So I'm backstage with Andy.
所以我和安迪在后台。
And these are two legends.
这是两个传说。
These are two American icons in culture.
这是美国文化中的两个偶像。
So Miles was the finale.
所以迈尔斯是结局。
And he had this outfit with this gold lame cape that he was supposed to walk out, with a hat.
他穿着这身衣服，搭配金色的跛脚斗篷，他应该戴着帽子走出去。
So he started to walk out.
于是他开始往外走。
And Andy was standing there looking at him.
安迪站在那里看着他。
And the cape was dragging on the floor.
斗篷拖在地板上。
So he started to walk out.
于是他开始往外走。
And he turned around and looked at Andy Warhol.
他转过身来看着安迪·沃霍尔。
And he said, "Andy, Andy.
他说：“安迪，安迪。
Pick up that cape." So Andy picked up the cape and they walked out together, you know what I mean?
拿起那件斗篷。”于是安迪拿起斗篷，他们一起走了出去，你明白我的意思吗？
And Andy had this sheepish look on his face.
安迪脸上露出羞涩的表情。
And Miles strutted out, and Andy was holding the cape off the floor.
迈尔斯大摇大摆地走了出去，安迪把斗篷从地板上拿下来。
And they walked up the thing.
他们走上那东西。
And so everybody in the room-- they left us in the room.
所以房间里的每个人——他们把我们留在房间里。
Andy's handlers, they were like shocked.
安迪的经纪人，他们都很震惊。
They had never heard anything like that.
他们从来没有听说过这样的事。
They were like, "Wow, did you see that?
他们就像，“哇，你看到了吗？
Did you see that?" But Andy was smiling.
你看到了吗？”但安迪却在微笑。
He was happy to be in it.
他很高兴能参与其中。
He was happy to be in it.
他很高兴能参与其中。
And so that was Miles.
这就是迈尔斯。
Miles Davis was almost like a king, you know what I mean?
迈尔斯·戴维斯几乎就像一个国王，你知道我的意思吗？
He was like a king.
他就像一个国王。
And so that particular moment, I remember his attitude was like, "I'm the king here.
所以在那个特定的时刻，我记得他的态度就像是，“我是这里的国王。
Pick up the cape.
拿起斗篷。
We both might be icons, but I'm a bigger icon than you."
我们都可能是偶像，但我比你更伟大。”
Quincy Troupe co-authored Miles Davis' autobiography, Miles.
昆西·特鲁普 (Quincy Troupe) 与人合着了迈尔斯·戴维斯 (Miles Davis) 的自传《迈尔斯》(Miles)。
He is a poet and journalist and essayist and author of several books.
他是一位诗人、记者、散文家和多本书的作者。
He latest is called Avalanche from Coffee House Press.
他的最新作品被咖啡屋出版社称为“Avalanche”。
Well, now we have this artifact.
好了，现在我们有了这个神器。
This is Act Three of our program, Snuggles.
这是我们节目《Snuggles》的第三幕。
From 1980 through 1995, a guy in New York ran what he called an apology line.
从 1980 年到 1995 年，纽约的一个人开通了他所谓的道歉热线。
And the idea is that people would call up.
我们的想法是人们会打电话来。
They would call this anonymous line, and they would apologize for anything they believed that they had done that was worthy of apology.
他们会打电话给这条匿名热线，并且会为他们认为自己做过的任何值得道歉的事情道歉。
Eventually, this guy started to call himself-- or maybe he called himself this from the start-- Mr. Apology.
最终，这个家伙开始称自己——或者也许他从一开始就这样称呼自己——道歉先生。
His real name was Allan Bridge.
他的真名是艾伦·布里奇。
And over time, people would apologize.
随着时间的推移，人们会道歉。
And some apologies would be real.
有些道歉是真实的。
And some would be fake.
有些是假的。
And some would be some combination of the two, you couldn't really tell.
有些是两者的结合，你无法真正分辨出来。
And then people could call in and respond to the apologies they were hearing as well.
然后人们也可以打电话来回应他们听到的道歉。
Anyway, this particular apology was transcribed in the magazine of the apology line, Apology Magazine , volume one, number four.
无论如何，这个特别的道歉被记录在道歉行的杂志《道歉杂志》第一卷第四号中。
This is called "Snuggly Bear," from August, 1993.
这就是 1993 年 8 月的“Snuggly Bear”。
This is a transcription of something somebody said on the phone line.
这是某人在电话线上所说的话的转录。
"I have an apology to make.
“我要道歉。
And I suppose this is as good a place to do it as any.
我想这也是一个做这件事的好地方。
I was watching TV and a commercial came on.
我正在看电视，正好播放广告。
It was a commercial for fabric softener, I believe.
我相信这是织物柔软剂的广告。
It was a small, furry bear, Snuggly Bear.
那是一只毛茸茸的小熊，名叫“Snuggly Bear”。
And Snuggly Bear was extolling the virtues of this product, this fabric softener, I believe.
我相信，Snuggly Bear 正在赞扬这种产品、这种织物柔软剂的优点。
And I don't know what it was about this bear, but I was fascinated.
我不知道这只熊有什么特点，但我很着迷。
Small bear, high-pitched voice, indeterminate sex, not sure if it's male or female.
小熊，声音高亢，性别不确定，不知道是公是母。
I was fascinated.
我很着迷。
"A few days later, another commercial came on again.
“几天后，另一个广告又出现了。
Once again, I stopped what I was doing and I watched.
我再一次停下手头的事，看着。
This time I kept watching and hoped.
这次我继续观察并希望。
I kept the station on.
我让电台一直开着。
I hoped that the commercial would come back.
我希望广告能回来。
And sure enough, later on in the evening, another commercial came on, a different commercial with the same Snuggly Bear.
果然，晚上晚些时候，又播放了另一则广告，另一则广告是同一个 Snuggly Bear。
Same product.
相同的产品。
"I went to the supermarket, and I saw the product.
“我去了超市，看到了这种产品。
And I saw the picture of Snuggly Bear.
我还看到了依偎熊的照片。
I purchased the product.
我购买了该产品。
I didn't use it to soften any fabrics.
我没有用它来软化任何织物。
I just wanted to have a picture of Snuggly Bear.
我只是想拍一张依偎熊的照片。
I wrote Snuggly Bear a letter.
我给依偎熊写了一封信。
And I was hoping for an answer, but I didn't receive one.
我希望得到答复，但我没有收到。
Then I wrote another one.
然后我又写了一篇。
I was hoping to get some sort of response, a photograph, an autograph, something.
我希望得到某种回应，一张照片，一个签名，什么的。
Still no response.
仍然没有回应。
"I wrote a third letter, and I'm afraid I was rather upset when I wrote the letter.
“我写了第三封信，恐怕当我写这封信时我感到相当沮丧。
I've since learned that the letter was turned over to the FBI.
我后来得知这封信已转交给联邦调查局。
I was warned not to try to contact Snuggly Bear again.
我被警告不要再尝试联系 Snuggly Bear。
Snuggly Bear travels around.
依偎熊到处旅行。
I believe the bear has one residence in Martha's Vineyard and another residence on the West Coast.
我相信这只熊在玛莎葡萄园岛有一个住所，在西海岸有另一个住所。
I'm not sure where the West Coast residence is, but I've been to the Martha's Vineyard residence.
我不确定西海岸的住所在哪里，但我去过玛莎葡萄园岛的住所。
I let myself in.
我让自己进去了。
There was, of course, a certain amount of security around the house, but I let myself in.
当然，房子周围有一定的安全措施，但我还是让自己进去了。
I climbed the gate and I found a window open around the back of the house, a rather large house.
我爬上大门，发现房子后面有一扇开着的窗户，房子相当大。
And I wandered around.
我四处闲逛。
He wasn't home, of course.
当然，他不在家。
He or she wasn't home.
他或她不在家。
I'm sure he was out on the road doing his pitch for the fabric softener.
我确信他正在路上推销织物柔软剂。
"Well, if I can only reach Snuggly Bear.
“好吧，如果我能到达依偎熊就好了。
If I can only make Snuggly Bear understand that I understand.
如果我能让依偎熊明白我就明白了。
I'm sure if I get through to Snuggly Bear that I'm sure we could establish a relationship, or just an understanding.
我确信，如果我与 Snuggly Bear 取得联系，我确信我们可以建立一种关系，或者只是一种理解。
But the way it's going now, everything is in limbo.
但按照现在的情况来看，一切都处于悬而未决的状态。
Every time I try to contact this bear, I'm thwarted.
每次我试图联系这只熊时，我都遭到挫败。
I'm calling to apologize, because I guess I've been a bad boy.
我打电话是为了道歉，因为我想我是个坏孩子。
I'm not stalking Snuggly Bear.
我不是在跟踪依偎熊。
They've accused me of stalking Snuggly Bear, but I'm not a stalker.
他们指责我跟踪依偎熊，但我不是跟踪者。
I simply want Snuggly Bear to understand that I understand.
我只是想让依偎熊明白我明白。
That's all.
仅此而已。
I'm sorry."
对不起。”
Well, somebody heard that apology on the apology line.
好吧，有人在道歉热线中听到了道歉。
And then they called in with this message.
然后他们打电话来传达了这个消息。
"This is out to the man who has the fixation on Snuggles Bear.
“这对于那些迷恋依偎熊的人来说是一件好事。
I do understand, and I would really like to give you my emotional support.
我确实理解，我真的很愿意给你我的情感支持。
I do care.
我很关心。
I sort of had a similar experience with McGruff the crime dog.
我对犯罪狗麦格鲁夫也有类似的经历。
And actually, we managed to get together.
事实上，我们成功地聚在一起了。
I can barely even say his name now.
我现在连他的名字都说不出来。
"We did manage to get it together.
“我们确实设法把它放在一起。
And I got into his life.
而我也走进了他的生活。
He accepted me.
他接受了我。
He cared about me.
他关心我。
But you can imagine.
但你可以想象。
You see him all the time on TV.
你总是在电视上看到他。
And life with a cop is difficult.
和警察一起生活很困难。
I just didn't know when he'd be coming home at night, and I couldn't take it anymore.
我只是不知道他晚上什么时候回家，我再也受不了了。
Plus, he was sort of spraying all over the furniture.
另外，他还把东西喷在家具上。
Basically, what I want to say to you is maybe loving from afar is the best thing to do.
基本上，我想对你说的是，也许远方的爱才是最好的事情。
And maybe it's best that you never actually get to meet Snuggles.
也许你最好永远不要真正见到斯纳格斯。
Because then you'll have this pure, this untainted image of Snuggles.
因为那样你就会拥有这个纯粹、没有污染的依偎形象。
You take care.
你保重。
Bye-bye."
再见。”
Act Four, 1,000 Women Become Selena.
第四幕，1000 名女性成为赛琳娜。
It's one thing to admire someone from afar and try to get close to them.
远远地欣赏某人并试图接近他们是一回事。
It is another thing to actually try to dress as someone you admire, try to look like them, try to become them, even for a day.
真正尝试打扮成你钦佩的人，尝试看起来像他们，尝试成为他们，即使只是一天，这是另一回事。
Well, that's what happened recently here in Chicago at Clemente High School.
嗯，这就是最近在芝加哥克莱门特高中发生的事情。
Let me get some sound going here.
让我在这里发出一些声音。
That was a very NPR moment, huh?
那是一个非常受 NPR 关注的时刻，不是吗？
Picture, please, a gray, cold Chicago day, two lines of women and girls stretched around the block in both directions around this high school.
请想象一下芝加哥灰暗寒冷的一天，两排妇女和女孩在这所高中周围的街区向两个方向延伸。
One line is 18 year olds in scanty clothing.
其中一队是衣着单薄的 18 岁年轻人。
Scanty, I guess, would be the appropriate word.
我想，“稀疏”这个词是合适的。
The other line is full of eight year olds, many in scanty clothing, though not all.
另一排挤满了八岁的孩子，尽管不是全部，但很多人都衣着单薄。
Music blares, people are singing and dancing.
音乐响起，人们载歌载舞。
And nearly every woman and girl trying out to be the star of the upcoming Selena movie has brought her extended family with her.
几乎每个试图成为即将上映的赛琳娜电影明星的女人和女孩都带着她的大家庭。
The director of the film says that he wants to find two Selenas, one to play Selena as a child, one to play Selena as an adult.
影片导演表示，他想找两个赛琳娜，一个扮演小时候的赛琳娜，一个扮演成年的赛琳娜。
Selena, or Se-leh-na, was, of course, the Mexican-American pop star recently killed, widely revered.
当然，赛琳娜（Selena）或塞莱娜（Se-leh-na）是最近被杀的墨西哥裔美国流行歌星，广受尊敬。
And perhaps you saw footage of these auditions on the news.
也许您在新闻中看到了这些试镜的片段。
We decided to send 18-year-old Claudia Perez to cover the event.
我们决定派 18 岁的克劳迪娅·佩雷斯 (Claudia Perez) 来报道这次活动。
Claudia loves Selena, and she wanted to audition herself.
克劳迪娅（Claudia）喜欢赛琳娜（Selena），她想亲自试镜。
12-year-old Jessica [?
12 岁的杰西卡 [？
Letta ?] almost didn't make it.
莱塔？]差点没成功。
On Friday, she and her family drove seven hours from St. Paul, Minnesota.
周五，她和家人从明尼苏达州圣保罗开车七个小时。
They arrived late at night and showed up at Clemente High School at 5:30 Saturday morning.
他们深夜抵达，并于周六早上 5:30 出现在克莱门特高中。
Before coming down to Chicago, Jessica's mom told me something terrible had happened.
在来芝加哥之前，杰西卡的妈妈告诉我发生了一件可怕的事情。
Yesterday morning that we planned to come here, she was really sick.
昨天早上我们计划来这里的时候，她病得很厉害。
High fever.
高烧。
And I said, Jess, we're not going.
我说，杰西，我们不去。
You're very sick.
你病得很重。
I started crying.
我开始哭了。
Jessica's Mom My husband goes, take her to the hospital.
杰西卡的妈妈 我丈夫去了，带她去医院。
This is yesterday?
这是昨天吗？
Jessica's Mom That was yesterday.
杰西卡的妈妈那是昨天的事。
And look at her now.
现在看看她。
My grandpa was scolding my Ma.
我爷爷在骂我妈妈。
You better take her to that concert or I'm going to hit her.
你最好带她去听音乐会，不然我就要打她了。
My grandpa is just a lovable man.
我的爷爷只是一个可爱的人。
He told me to go and he wished me the best of luck.
他让我走，并祝我好运。
And he goes, even if you're sick, you've got to go.
他走了，即使你生病了，你也必须走。
You've got to go.
你必须走了。
I want to see you win.
我想看到你赢。
And I'm like, Grandpa, there is a lot of people that can win.
我想，爷爷，有很多人可以获胜。
Not just me.
不只是我。
To hear the family tell it, it's like a miracle that Jessica got well.
听家人说，杰西卡的康复简直就是一个奇迹。
It was like she was chosen.
就好像她被选中了一样。
In fact, Jessica was chosen once before.
事实上，杰西卡之前就被选中过一次。
When Selena was still alive, Jessica and her family were at a concert in [UNINTELLIGIBLE].
当赛琳娜还活着时，杰西卡和她的家人正在[无法辨认]参加一场音乐会。
She and her mom were standing outside the backstage entrance.
她和她妈妈站在后台入口外。
And Selena's sister, Suzette, picked Jessica out of a huge crowd of little girls to have her picture taken with Selena.
赛琳娜的妹妹苏泽特从一大群小女孩中挑选了杰西卡与赛琳娜合影。
After I took the picture with Selena, the guard that was standing by the door, the guard goes, I'll give you this picture that you took with Selena for $5.
我和赛琳娜拍完照后，站在门口的警卫走过去，我给你这张你和赛琳娜拍的照片，花 5 美元。
And I'm like, I don't have any money on me right now, but if I go back to table, I can.
我想，我现在身上没有钱，但如果我回到餐桌上，我就可以。
And they were joking around.
他们正在开玩笑。
Suzette goes, no, no, no, $2.
苏泽特说，不，不，不，2 美元。
And then Selena turned around and goes, no, I know how much.
然后赛琳娜转身走了，不，我知道多少钱。
She goes, for nothing.
她走了，毫无意义。
You can just keep it for free.
您可以免费保留它。
And I started laughing.
我开始笑。
Jessica is a beautiful little girl.
杰西卡是一个美丽的小女孩。
She has long black hair and a cinnamon complexion.
她有一头黑色的长发和肉桂色的肤色。
She's wearing a Selena outfit, knee-length boots, spandex hot pants, and a black, padded bustier with gold trimming over the breast.
她穿着赛琳娜套装、及膝靴、氨纶热裤和胸前饰有金色饰边的黑色衬垫紧身胸衣。
It's Jessica's dream to be like Selena.
杰西卡的梦想是像赛琳娜一样。
She wants to be a singer and sing in English and Spanish.
她想成为一名歌手，用英语和西班牙语唱歌。
She came to the auditions, but not just so she could be a movie star.
她参加试镜，但不仅仅是为了成为一名电影明星。
It's like she wants to feel closer to Selena.
就好像她想与赛琳娜更亲近。
I don't want to do the movie for money or anything.
我不想为了钱或其他什么而拍电影。
Because money's not the answer.
因为金钱不是答案。
Money's not everything.
钱不是一切。
Look at what it brought to Selena, nothing.
看看它给赛琳娜带来了什么，什么也没有。
I mean, I want to do it because I want Selena to see me, what I'm doing.
我的意思是，我想这样做是因为我想让赛琳娜看到我，看到我在做什么。
I just want to do it for Selena.
我只是想为赛琳娜做这件事。
A lot of people still cry over Selena.
很多人仍然为赛琳娜哭泣。
She was so lovable, just her smile.
她是如此可爱，光是她的笑容就足够了。
She was like a little girl.
她就像一个小女孩。
When she went to the Grammy Awards, she went there with her camera, wanted to take pictures with everybody.
当她去格莱美颁奖典礼时，她带着相机去那里，想和大家合影。
Selena put a positive role.
赛琳娜扮演了积极的角色。
She made it seem like it's not bad to be Mexican-American.
她让墨西哥裔美国人看起来似乎并不坏。
I asked Jessica in Spanish how she felt about Selena's death.
我用西班牙语问杰西卡，她对赛琳娜的死有何感想。
She started crying.
她开始哭泣。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Claudia Perez Then I started crying too.
[说西班牙语] 克劳迪娅·佩雷斯 然后我也开始哭了。
She is my best friend.
她是我最好的朋友。
And a lot of people say things that aren't true.
而且很多人说的都是不真实的事情。
And the people don't know how she is.
人们不知道她怎么样。
And she was a very nice person.
她是一个非常好的人。
She was a very nice person.
她是一个非常好的人。
Because I met Suzette, and I met her.
因为我遇见了苏泽特，我也遇见了她。
And they were talking to me and it was-- I mean, I was so happy.
他们正在跟我说话，我的意思是，我很高兴。
After Selena's death, Jessica and her family went to visit her grave in Corpus Christi, Texas.
赛琳娜去世后，杰西卡和她的家人前往德克萨斯州科珀斯克里斯蒂市扫墓。
I was sitting down, and I was hugging the grave, and I asked myself, how come you died, and this and that?
我坐下来，抱着坟墓，我问自己，你怎么死了，还有这个那个？
And I sang to her.
我唱歌给她听。
I think I sang "Como la Flor" because it reminds me of her.
我想我唱“Como la Flor”是因为它让我想起了她。
Sing a little part of it.
唱一小部分。
Jessica [SINGING IN SPANISH]
杰西卡 [用西班牙语演唱]
The words mean, "Like the flower with much love, you gave to me.
这句话的意思是：“就像你送给我的那朵充满爱的花。
I'll march on.
我会继续前进。
I know how to lose a love.
我知道如何失去爱情。
But oh my, how it hurts me."
但是天啊，这让我多么痛苦啊。”
A lot of people say that she might be dead and stuff.
很多人说她可能已经死了之类的。
But she's not dead.
但她没有死。
It's that she sleeping.
是她在睡觉。
She's sleeping for a very long time.
她睡了很长时间。
And wherever she is-- in heaven, or wherever-- she's probably singing her heart up there too.
无论她身在何处——在天堂，或任何地方——她可能也在上面唱着她的心声。
I met all sorts of people at auditions.
我在试镜时遇到了各种各样的人。
Everybody was really dressed up and looked fabulous.
每个人都盛装打扮，看起来棒极了。
There was Selena music everywhere, TV cameras, girls were fixing their hair and putting their makeup on.
到处都是赛琳娜的音乐，电视摄像机，女孩们在整理头发、化妆。
People were dancing.
人们在跳舞。
At one point, we were talking to these two girls.
有一次，我们正在和这两个女孩交谈。
They sang us a Selena song.
他们给我们唱了一首赛琳娜的歌。
And pretty soon, people we didn't even know were joining in.
很快，我们甚至不认识的人也加入了进来。
Everybody was singing.
每个人都在唱歌。
It was just that kind of thing.
就是这样的事情。
One of the girls we met came all the way from New York with her mother and her little sister.
我们遇到的一个女孩与她的母亲和妹妹从纽约远道而来。
It was kind of a secret mission.
这是一项秘密任务。
So your dad's at home?
那么你爸爸在家吗？
Auditioner 1 Yeah, he doesn't even know we're here.
试镜1 是的，他甚至不知道我们在这里。
No. He doesn't know that?
不，他不知道吗？
The mother told her husband that she was at a Mary Kay conference in Philadelphia and that the daughters would be spending the weekend at their older sister's house.
母亲告诉丈夫，她正在费城参加玫琳凯会议，女儿们将在姐姐家过周末。
Then she flew them all to Chicago for the auditions.
然后她带他们所有人去芝加哥参加试镜。
Yeah, that's good.
是的，那很好。
Mama saved her daughters.
妈妈救了她的女儿们。
My daughters first.
首先是我的女儿们。
Claudia Perez When you finally get inside to the audition, it's kind of disappointing.
克劳迪娅·佩雷斯（Claudia Perez） 当你最终参加试镜时，你会感到有点失望。
It's like it's over before it starts.
好像还没开始就已经结束了。
There were 20 girls on the stage at a time.
舞台上同时有20个女孩。
They sit you down at these tables, give you this fake smile, hand you a card to fill out, ask you one question, then tell you to stand up and dance.
他们让你坐在这些桌子旁，给你一个假笑，递给你一张卡片让你填写，问你一个问题，然后让你站起来跳舞。
You dance for 30 seconds.
你跳舞30秒。
Sometimes they don't even play music.
有时他们甚至不演奏音乐。
When I went up there, the woman running my table didn't even know who Selena was.
当我去那里时，管理我桌子的那位女士甚至不知道赛琳娜是谁。
She didn't bother to look at me.
她懒得看我。
When we were dancing, they only gave you 60 seconds total to make an impression.
当我们跳舞的时候，他们总共只给了你60秒的时间来给人留下深刻的印象。
So what are they looking for?
那么他们在寻找什么？
Magic.
魔法。
Claudia Perez What kind of magic?
克劳迪娅·佩雷斯是什么样的魔法？
Well, I don't know.
嗯，我不知道。
That special magic that made Selena that-- she was very outgoing, an incredible entertainer, very gifted, very beautiful.
这种特殊的魔力使赛琳娜变得非常外向，是一位令人难以置信的艺人，非常有天赋，非常美丽。
This is the director Greg Nava.
这是导演格雷格·纳瓦。
He told me there were three auditions, in LA, Chicago, and in Texas.
他告诉我有三场试镜，分别在洛杉矶、芝加哥和德克萨斯州。
I thought, if he wants magic, I'll give him magic.
我想，如果他想要魔法，我就给他魔法。
I told him about Jessica.
我告诉他关于杰西卡的事。
Of everyone I interviewed, she had the pizazz.
在我采访过的所有人中，她是最有活力的。
She looked like Selena, she had big dreams like Selena, and she has Selena in her heart.
她长得像赛琳娜，她像赛琳娜一样有远大的梦想，她心里也有赛琳娜。
I want to show you this little girl.
我想向你展示这个小女孩。
I don't know if you've seen her.
我不知道你是否见过她。
She left already.
她已经离开了。
She told me that she wants to be Selena.
她告诉我她想成为赛琳娜。
She made me cry.
她让我哭了。
And she doesn't even want to get paid.
而且她甚至不想得到报酬。
I guarantee you, if she gets the role of Selena, she will be paid.
我向你保证，如果她得到赛琳娜这个角色，她就会得到报酬。
I thought that maybe the auditions were just a publicity stunt, not serious auditions, something Selena definitely would not approve of.
我想也许试镜只是一个宣传噱头，并不是认真的试镜，赛琳娜肯定不会同意的。
But the director said they will most likely pick the little girl from the open auditions.
但导演表示，他们很可能会从公开试镜中挑选这个小女孩。
And there was a 50/50 chance they'd pick the big Selena.
他们有 50/50 的机会选择大个子赛琳娜。
After a long day, the crowds are cleared.
经过漫长的一天，人群散去。
Two cousins who flew in from Texas were sitting outside in the cold, eating pizza, and waiting for a Chicago family friend to pick them up.
两个从德克萨斯州飞来的表兄弟坐在外面寒冷的天气里吃披萨，等待芝加哥的家人朋友来接他们。
They had arrived early in the morning and didn't get much sleep.
他们一早就到了，没有睡多少觉。
They weren't sure when their ride was coming or where they were going to spend the night.
他们不确定他们的车什么时候来，也不确定他们要去哪里过夜。
I asked them what they thought of the auditions.
我问他们对试镜的看法。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't think it went as great as I thought it would be.
我认为事情没有我想象的那么顺利。
Well, because, it's like, I don't think the producers were there when I got to do my stuff.
嗯，因为，就像，当我开始做我的事情时，我认为制片人不在场。
So I don't know.
所以我不知道。
I don't know.
我不知道。
They're looking for something different.
他们正在寻找不同的东西。
I don't know.
我不知道。
What makes you think that they're looking for something different?
是什么让您认为他们正在寻找不同的东西？
Just because the people that they choose, they talk to, they don't even-- I don't know.
只是因为他们选择的人、他们交谈的人，他们甚至不——我不知道。
Their appearance.
他们的出现。
They're not looking for more deeply.
他们并不是在寻找更深入的东西。
They're not looking for a true Selena.
他们并不是在寻找真正的赛琳娜。
They're just looking for appearances.
他们只是在寻找外表。
And it's really bad.
这真的很糟糕。
They might know who Selena was, but not truly what she meant to us.
他们可能知道赛琳娜是谁，但不知道她对我们意味着什么。
They had spent $135 each, saved from babysitting, to get to Chicago.
他们每人花了 135 美元（从保姆费中省下来）去芝加哥。
But they didn't feel bad.
但他们并不觉得难过。
It's fine because we got to meet a lot of people and stuff.
没关系，因为我们遇到了很多人和事。
I mean, we just came.
我是说，我们刚来。
And we knew we're going to not get picked.
我们知道我们不会被选中。
But we still came and take the chance, because that's the thing that Selena would always say.
但我们还是来了，抓住机会，因为这是赛琳娜总是说的话。
If you have a thing, you go for it.
如果你有一件事，你就去争取。
Don't let nobody put you down because they say, well, we already chose the person.
不要让任何人让你失望，因为他们说，好吧，我们已经选择了这个人。
Give whatever you have.
给你你所拥有的一切。
And that's what we did.
这就是我们所做的。
So that's a reason why we came here.
这就是我们来这里的原因。
They just sat there on the bench waiting.
他们只是坐在长凳上等待。
They weren't really dressed for Chicago weather.
他们的穿着并不适合芝加哥的天气。
They wore fishnet pantyhose, real short shorts, bustiers, and thin leather jackets.
他们穿着渔网连裤袜、真正的短裤、紧身胸衣和薄皮夹克。
You could tell they were really cold.
你可以看出他们真的很冷。
They were anxious for their ride to show up.
他们急切地希望自己的座驾能够出现。
A couple weeks later, it was announced that none of the girls from the open auditions were chosen for the Selena part.
几周后，有消息称，公开试镜的所有女孩都没有被选为赛琳娜的角色。
Not them, not me, not Jessica.
不是他们，不是我，不是杰西卡。
Nobody.
没有人。
We don't know.
我们不知道。
We have to get a ride first here.
我们得先搭车到这里。
And then we'll know where to go.
然后我们就会知道该去哪里。
Well, give me a pen.
好吧，给我一支笔。
I could give you some places.
我可以给你一些位置。
You can call me.
你可以打电话给我。
Go to some party.
去参加一些聚会。
Claudia Perez is an 18-year-old former high school dropout who recently got her high school equivalency, hopes to go to the Art Institute of Chicago in the fall, is looking for a full-time job right now.
克劳迪娅·佩雷斯 (Claudia Perez) 是一名 18 岁的高中辍学生，最近获得了高中同等学历，希望秋季进入芝加哥艺术学院，目前正在寻找一份全职工作。
This is her second report for our program.
这是她为我们的项目做的第二份报告。
She says she wants to be famous, but up until now we are the best that she can do.
她说她想出名，但到目前为止我们是她能做到的最好的。
So Claudia, explain why this is the song you wanted us to play on our program after your story about Selena.
那么克劳迪娅，请解释一下为什么您希望我们在讲述赛琳娜的故事后在节目中播放这首歌。
I like it because she sings it with a mariachi.
我喜欢这首歌，因为她和墨西哥流浪乐队一起唱。
And it's an old song from Mexico.
这是一首来自墨西哥的老歌。
When I think of Selena, I don't think of her as a mariachi singer.
当我想到赛琳娜时，我并不认为她是一位流浪歌手。
Well, you don't.
好吧，你不知道。
That's why she didn't sing with mariachi.
这就是为什么她没有和墨西哥流浪乐队一起唱歌。
She was more of a beat-y person, with a lot of beat.
她是一个比较节拍的人，有很多节拍。
And that's why this song, this one and this other song that she sang, everybody sang it when she left.
这就是为什么她唱的这首歌、这首歌和另一首歌，当她离开时每个人都唱它。
Everybody sang when she left?
她离开时大家都唱歌吗？
You mean everybody sang it when she died?
你是说她死后每个人都唱这首歌？
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass Listen to you.
艾拉·格拉斯 听你说。
You sound like that girl in your story who's like, she's not dead, she's just sleeping, the way you just said that.
你听起来就像你故事里的那个女孩，她没有死，她只是在睡觉，就像你刚才说的那样。
"When she left." She didn't just leave, honey.
“她离开的时候。”她并没有就这样离开，亲爱的。
[MUSIC - "TU SOLO TU" BY SELENA]
[音乐 - SELENA 的《TU SOLO TU》]
Well, today's program was produced by Dolores Wilber and myself with Nancy Updike, Alix Spiegel, and Peter Clowney.
嗯，今天的节目是由多洛雷斯·威尔伯和我与南希·厄普代克、阿利克斯·斯皮格尔和彼得·克劳尼共同制作的。
Today's show was first broadcast back in 1996.
今天的节目于 1996 年首次播出。
Contributing editors for this show, Paul Tough, Jack Hitt, and Margy Rochlin.
本节目的特约编辑是 Paul Tough、Jack Hitt 和 Margy Rochlin。
Margy helped do the reporting and the interviews for our story on Erika Yeomans.
Margy 帮助我们对 Erika Yeomans 的故事进行了报道和采访。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] To buy a cassette of this or any of our programs, call us here at WBEZ in Chicago, 312-832-3380.
[鸣谢] 要购买本节目或我们任何节目的磁带，请致电芝加哥的 WBEZ，电话：312-832-3380。
Or you can visit our website where you can also listen to most of our programs for free, www.thisamericanlife.org.
或者您可以访问我们的网站，您也可以免费收听我们的大部分节目：www.thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight by Torey Malatia, who welcomes his beloved radio staff every single morning to the radio station with this greeting--
[资金来源] WBEZ 管理由托里·马拉蒂亚 (Torey Malatia) 负责监督，他每天早上都会用这样的问候欢迎他心爱的广播工作人员来到广播电台——
Eff you.
哎呀你。
Get out of my face.
从我面前滚出去。
Ira Glass I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 我是艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass），下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
Later.
之后。
Announcer PRI, Public Radio International.
国际公共广播电台 PRI 播音员。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。