196: Rashomon - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #196 | October 5, 2001 196: Rashomon Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 196 集 | 2001 年 10 月 5 日 196：罗生门 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass Larry Keeley is one of those guys with a job that, the more he tries to you explain to you what it is that he does for a living, the more you think, people pay you for that?
序言 Ira Glass 拉里·基利 (Larry Keeley) 是这样的人之一，他的工作是这样的，他越是试图向你解释他以什么为生，你就越会想，人们会为此付钱给你吗？
He consults with companies about innovation, about how to organize themselves to be more competitive, more inventive, foster new ideas, that kind of thing.
他为公司提供有关创新、如何组织自己以更具竞争力、更具创造力、培育新想法等方面的咨询。
So February of last year, he's giving a talk about all this to some executives who have gathered at a fancy golf course in Florida.
去年二月，他向聚集在佛罗里达州一个高档高尔夫球场的一些高管就这一切进行了演讲。
And after the talk, two military men in the audience ask him to lunch.
演讲结束后，观众席上的两名军人请他共进午餐。
As they're being served, one of them asked what he knew about the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center building.
当他们接受服务时，其中一人问他对 1993 年世贸中心大楼爆炸案了解多少。
So he's asking me if I knew any of the details.
所以他问我是否知道任何细节。
And I said, no. And he started to tell me the gory details about the analysis of that bombing.
我说，不。他开始告诉我有关爆炸事件分析的血淋淋的细节。
And of course, what they use are people who go in afterwards and do forensic analysis of a calamity.
当然，他们使用的是事后介入并对灾难进行法医分析的人。
And what was fascinating about the forensic analysis is that the forensic teams didn't quite agree.
法医分析的有趣之处在于法医团队并不完全同意。
Some said the bombs were placed 12 centimeters away from where they would have needed to be to destroy the major support column in the North Tower.
一些人说，炸弹放置的位置距离摧毁北塔主要支撑柱所需的位置有 12 厘米。
Others said, no, no, no, you got it all wrong.
其他人说，不，不，不，你完全错了。
The bombs were four centimeters away from where they needed to be to destroy that column.
炸弹距离摧毁该纵队所需的位置只有四厘米。
By the way, pretty alarming.
顺便说一句，非常令人震惊。
Larry Keeley And it turns out that one of the guys I'm lunching with is a major general, George Close, a brilliant guy.
拉里·基利（Larry Keeley）：事实证明，与我共进午餐的其中一个人是一位少将，乔治·克洛斯（George Close），他是一位才华横溢的人。
And he turns out to be hand-picked by the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff to think through something called the revolution in military affairs.
事实证明，他是参谋长联席会议主席亲自挑选的，负责思考所谓的军事革命。
When I got a little bit of explanation about this revolution in military affairs, they said, we're in the middle of one.
当我得到一些关于这场军事革命的解释时，他们说，我们正处于这场革命之中。
And I said, OK.
我说，好吧。
And they said, they don't happen very often, we think there's been maybe 12 of them in history.
他们说，这种情况并不经常发生，我们认为历史上可能发生过 12 次。
What that means is that everything that is normal and the way we engage, fight a conflict, and win it will go through a change.
这意味着一切正常的事情以及我们参与、对抗冲突并赢得胜利的方式都将发生变化。
So one of the early historic examples was the invention of gunpowder.
因此，早期的历史例子之一就是火药的发明。
And you think about the world of gladiator, and you see the kind of conflict that gun powder transformed forever.
你想想角斗士的世界，你就会看到火药永远改变了那种冲突。
People that are rushing up to the enemy with their horses, wearing 300 pounds of armor and rushing up to the enemy and whacking him with something sharp.
人们骑着马冲向敌人，穿着三百磅的盔甲，冲向敌人，用尖锐的东西猛击敌人。
That was the nature of battle in those days.
这就是当时战争的本质。
Well gun powder comes along, cannons get cheap, they put them on wheels, they can haul them to the enemy's fortress.
好吧，火药来了，大炮变得便宜，他们把它们装在轮子上，他们可以把它们拖到敌人的堡垒。
That's a revolution in military affairs.
这是军事领域的一场革命。
And I'm sitting there listening to this and they've happened so seldom in the history of the world.
我坐在那里听着这一切，这在世界历史上很少发生。
Every time a revolution in military affairs has occurred in history, the party in power at the beginning has not been in power at the end.
历史上每次发生军事革命，最初执政的一方并没有最终执政。
And they got a lot of historians at the Pentagon.
五角大楼有很多历史学家。
And those historians had convinced the senior generals that we were in the midst of a revolution in military affairs with these basic principles.
这些历史学家让高级将领们相信，我们正处于一场基于这些基本原则的军事革命之中。
Which brings us to the first World Trade Center bombing in 1993.
这让我们想起 1993 年发生的第一起世贸中心爆炸事件。
These particular generals were convinced that it was an example of this new kind of warfare.
这些将军确信这是这种新型战争的一个例子。
The way the thing was organized, through a web of operatives, the low-tech way it was carried out, the fact that it was on American soil and targeted at something so symbolic as the World Trade Center towers.
这件事的组织方式，通过特工网络，以低技术含量的方式进行，事实是它发生在美国的土地上，目标是世界贸易中心塔楼这样具有象征意义的东西。
February of last year, these Pentagon officials were trying to think about how they should fight back.
去年2月，五角大楼的这些官员就在思考如何反击。
And they wanted to learn to think differently.
他们想学会以不同的方式思考。
They wanted to learn to think like their enemy.
他们想学会像敌人一样思考。
So they called on a bunch of guys in the private sector, like Keeley, for advice on how to think differently, how to change.
因此，他们呼吁像基利这样的私营部门的一些人寻求如何以不同的方式思考、如何改变的建议。
US military strategy right now is based on the idea that we will win wars through overwhelming force.
美国目前的军事战略基于这样的理念：我们将通过压倒性的力量赢得战争。
That's the idea, overwhelming force.
这就是理念，压倒性的力量。
We will throw all the bombs, and planes, and missiles at the enemy, the best technology that money can buy, and a lot of it, just simply overwhelm them in a full-out attack.
我们将向敌人投掷所有的炸弹、飞机和导弹，用金钱可以买到的最好的技术，以及大量的技术，只是在全面的攻击中压倒他们。
And Keeley says that it was not clear if the Pentagon could change to something so low-tech and sneaky.
基利表示，目前尚不清楚五角大楼是否可以改变技术含量如此低且偷偷摸摸的做法。
One of the things we have is money, material in spades.
我们拥有的东西之一就是金钱，毫无疑问是物质。
To challenge elite forces to be able to overcome a vastly superior enemy, with next to nothing.
挑战精锐部队，使其能够在几乎一无所有的情况下战胜强大得多的敌人。
That is just completely the opposite of the way we think.
这与我们的想法完全相反。
And it's logical that we wouldn't think that way.
我们不会这么想也是合乎逻辑的。
Because we start with the presumption that we're the mightiest, and the biggest, with the greatest technologies.
因为我们一开始就假设我们是最强大、最大、拥有最先进技术的。
Right.
正确的。
You're saying that in order to fight these kind of sort of guerrilla terrorist actions, they have to become guerrilla terrorists.
你是说，为了打击这种游击恐怖行为，他们必须成为游击恐怖分子。
I don't know if they have to become them, but they have to be able to think like them.
我不知道他们是否必须成为他们，但他们必须能够像他们一样思考。
Keeley says that the military brass that he talked to wanted to be able to do that, but also knew quite well how difficult that would be.
基利说，与他交谈过的军方高层希望能够做到这一点，但也很清楚这将是多么困难。
It is hard to imagine the world from someone else's point of view.
很难从别人的角度想象世界。
Today on our radio program, we try to do that.
今天在我们的广播节目中，我们尝试这样做。
We bring you three stories, a kind of current events Rashomon.
我们为您带来三个故事，一种时事罗生门。
Each of the stories on our show today is something that you've heard of in the news, and we invite people with a different perspective, hopefully, than the one you already know.
我们今天节目中的每一个故事都是您在新闻中听说过的，我们希望邀请具有与您已知的观点不同的观点的人。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life , distributed by Public Radio International.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》，由国际公共广播电台发行。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Our program today in three acts: Act One, 1001 Arabian nightly newscasts.
我们今天的节目分为三幕：第一幕，1001 阿拉伯晚间新闻广播。
A Palestinian teenager from Chicago in that story explains why everything that you think you know about the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks is absolutely wrong.
故事中的一名来自芝加哥的巴勒斯坦少年解释了为什么你认为你所了解的有关世贸中心和五角大楼袭击的一切都是绝对错误的。
Act Two, bombs over Baghdad.
第二幕，巴格达上空的炸弹。
We hear the story of the Persian Gulf War, told by a family man from Baghdad who was drafted into Saddam's army against his will.
我们听到了波斯湾战争的故事，讲述者是一位来自巴格达的家庭男子，他在违背萨达姆意愿的情况下被征召入伍。
Who had to explain to his 3-year-old son why those nice Americans were bombing their city, night after night.
他必须向他三岁的儿子解释为什么那些善良的美国人夜复一夜地轰炸他们的城市。
Act Three, Toto, I don't think we're in Vietnam anymore.
第三幕，托托，我想我们已经不在越南了。
US special operations forces will lead the first part of the coming war that we are all bracing for.
美国特种作战部队将领导即将到来的战争的第一部分，我们都在为之做好准备。
We hear how a simple half hour mission turned into a bloody all-day battle one of the last times they went out, just a few years ago.
我们听说，就在几年前，他们最后一次外出时，一个简单的半小时任务如何变成了一场血腥的全天战斗。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One: 1001 Arabian Nightly Newscasts Ira Glass Act One.
第一幕：1001 阿拉伯之夜新闻广播 Ira Glass 第一幕。
1001 Arabian nightly newscasts.
1001 个阿拉伯之夜新闻广播。
You know, asking what Arab Americans or Muslims think about recent news is as ridiculous as asking what Christians think.
你知道，询问阿拉伯裔美国人或穆斯林对最近新闻的看法与询问基督徒的看法一样荒谬。
There is no one answer to that question, it is such a diverse community.
这个问题没有一个答案，这是一个多元化的社区。
For this next story, we wanted to hear from somebody whose views do not necessarily agree with what most Americans believe.
对于下一个故事，我们希望听到一些人的观点不一定与大多数美国人的看法一致。
We did this specifically so that we could better understand why they believe what it is that they believe.
我们这样做是为了更好地理解他们为什么相信他们所相信的东西。
Our senior producer Julie Snyder visited with an 18-year-old Palestinian American named Rawah starting the week of the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.
我们的高级制片人朱莉·斯奈德 (Julie Snyder) 在世贸中心和五角大楼遭到袭击的那一周开始拜访了一位名叫拉瓦 (Rawah) 的 18 岁巴勒斯坦裔美国人。
Rawah is a freshman in college.
拉瓦是一名大学新生。
She's studying computers, living at home with her parents.
她正在学习计算机，和父母一起住在家里。
She wears more traditional clothes at home, but jeans and a sweatshirt at school.
她在家里穿更传统的衣服，但在学校穿牛仔裤和运动衫。
She's religious enough that she always keeps her head covered in public.
她非常虔诚，在公共场合总是蒙着头。
Here's Julie's report.
这是朱莉的报告。
Whenever I visit Rawah's family's apartment, the TV is always on.
每当我去拉瓦家的公寓时，电视总是开着的。
They only watch the Arabic satellite channels, there are 10 or 15 of them from Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, the Emirates.
他们只看阿拉伯卫星频道，有10个或15个来自约旦、伊拉克、黎巴嫩、沙特阿拉伯、阿联酋。
There are movies, soap operas, there's even an Egyptian version of Who Wants to be a Millionaire that is almost exactly the same as ours-- but in their version, instead of cash prices, you win bars of gold.
有电影、肥皂剧，甚至还有埃及版的《谁想成为百万富翁》，几乎和我们的一模一样——但在他们的版本中，你赢得的不是现金，而是金条。
There, as here, some newscasts are more reliable than others.
在那里，和这里一样，一些新闻广播比其他新闻广播更可靠。
Al Jazeera is sort of like CNN.
半岛电视台有点像 CNN。
Abu Dhabi is closer to Fox News.
阿布扎比距离福克斯新闻更近。
Three days after the attacks, it's Rawah, her mother, brother, sister, brother-in-law, and me, sitting on the couch watching Abu Dhabi.
袭击发生三天后，拉瓦、她的母亲、兄弟、姐妹、姐夫和我坐在沙发上观看阿布扎比的比赛。
The scene on the TV is like watching the news in a parallel universe.
电视里的场景就像在平行宇宙里看新闻一样。
It's a reporter doing a stand up in front of the charred and collapsed portion of the Pentagon, just like any other reporter.
这是一名记者在五角大楼烧焦倒塌的部分前站起来，就像其他记者一样。
Except he's speaking in Arabic, talking emotionally, and gesturing emphatically, saying the US doesn't have proof linking the attacks to Arabs and there seems to be almost no proof linking the attacks to Osama bin Laden, but that everyone in the United States is jumping to conclusions.
除了他用阿拉伯语说话、情绪激动、手势强调，他说美国没有证据将这些袭击与阿拉伯人联系起来，而且似乎几乎没有证据将这些袭击与奥萨马·本·拉登联系起来，但美国的每个人都在急于下结论。
On hearing the news, Rawah's family nods in agreement.
听到这个消息，拉瓦的家人点头同意。
Her brother-in-law turns to remind me of the Oklahoma City bombing, where immediate reports pinned the blame on Arabs.
她的姐夫让我想起俄克拉荷马城爆炸案，立即报道将责任归咎于阿拉伯人。
The Arabic channels have been talking about this, and about Timothy McVeigh's recent execution, and how these attacks might be related to that.
阿拉伯频道一直在谈论此事，以及蒂莫西·麦克维最近的处决，以及这些袭击可能与此有何关联。
He talks about various American militia groups I've never heard of that want revenge for McVeigh's execution
他谈到了我从未听说过的各种美国民兵组织，他们想要为麦克维的处决复仇
I tell him, I honestly don't know much about that.
我告诉他，老实说我对此了解不多。
He tells me it's reported all the time on the satellite TV.
他告诉我卫星电视上一直在报道这件事。
This is the 12 o'clock news.
这是12点的新闻。
Julie Snyder This is Rawah.
朱莉·斯奈德 这是拉瓦。
This report is saying that Israel is taking advantage of all the media turning to America and reporting what's happening.
这份报告说，以色列正在利用所有媒体转向美国并报道正在发生的事情。
And they are bombing more homes and killing more Palestinians in Palestine.
他们正在巴勒斯坦轰炸更多的房屋并杀害更多的巴勒斯坦人。
In fact, in the first few days after the attack on the World Trade Center, Israel did step up military actions in the occupied territories.
事实上，在世贸中心袭击事件发生后的最初几天，以色列确实加大了在被占领土的军事行动力度。
In the West Bank town of Ramallah, where Rawah's sister lives, Israelis launched missiles from helicopters and leveled a building used by a Palestinian intelligence agency, killing one person and injuring 120 others.
在拉瓦妹妹居住的约旦河西岸城镇拉马拉，以色列从直升机上发射导弹，夷平了巴勒斯坦情报机构使用的一栋建筑，造成 1 人死亡、120 人受伤。
Rawah's sister called to say that she and her son had been sleeping in their laundry room because it's the only room without windows.
拉瓦的姐姐打电话说，她和儿子一直睡在洗衣房里，因为这是唯一没有窗户的房间。
Naturally, this was big news on Arabic TV.
自然，这是阿拉伯电视上的大新闻。
And while it was reported by Western news agencies like UPI and Reuters, because of the Trade Center and Pentagon attacks, it was hardly mentioned in American newscasts and newspapers.
虽然合众国际社和路透社等西方新闻机构对此进行了报道，但由于贸易中心和五角大楼的袭击，美国新闻广播和报纸上几乎没有提及它。
Rawah and her family say this is typical.
拉瓦和她的家人说这是典型的情况。
Americans who pay close attention to the news hear about Israeli actions against Palestinians.
密切关注新闻的美国人听说了以色列针对巴勒斯坦人的行动。
But most of us don't really know these things are happening, and don't get a sense of how severe they are.
但我们大多数人并不真正知道这些事情正在发生，也不知道它们有多严重。
And this just makes Rawah mad.
这让拉瓦很生气。
The only channel I don't see these things on is the American channels.
我唯一看不到这些东西的频道是美国频道。
I have the Syrian, the Lebanese, the Dubai channels, the Kuwait, the Saudi Arabia, the Iraq.
我有叙利亚、黎巴嫩、迪拜频道、科威特、沙特阿拉伯、伊拉克的发言。
So if all of these channels are bringing it, I'm sure it's not a lie.
因此，如果所有这些渠道都带来了它，我确信这不是谎言。
It's been confirmed on many channels.
此事已在多个渠道得到证实。
When I first Rawah, she spent over an hour showing me around her house and explaining to me her views on the Israelis and their occupation of Palestine.
当我第一次见到拉瓦时，她花了一个多小时带我参观她的房子，并向我解释她对以色列人和他们占领巴勒斯坦的看法。
We looked at articles she had written for the local Muslim newspaper.
我们查看了她为当地穆斯林报纸撰写的文章。
She played me a video she put together off the satellite TV, showing children brutally killed by Israeli shells, and Israeli soldiers shooting farmers at point blank range.
她给我播放了她从卫星电视上录制的一段视频，内容显示儿童被以色列炮弹残酷杀害，以色列士兵近距离射杀农民。
The footage was really graphic, filled with blood and body parts.
这段视频非常生动，充满了血液和身体部位。
You'd never see footage like it on American TV.
你永远不会在美国电视上看到这样的镜头。
Rawah's presentation even went multimedia.
拉瓦的演讲甚至采用了多媒体形式。
This is a Powerpoint slideshow.
这是一个 Powerpoint 幻灯片。
I have gotten the email, first in September, where the Israelis would start attacking the Palestinians.
我首先在九月份收到了这封电子邮件，以色列人将在其中开始攻击巴勒斯坦人。
This is a picture of a boy in a hospital.
这是一个男孩在医院里的照片。
This is a boy who was shot in the head.
这是一个头部中弹的男孩。
The reason these stories don't appear in the American media, Rawah says, is because certain ethnicities in the media-- and that's the phrase she used, certain ethnicities-- don't want these stories to get out.
拉瓦说，这些故事没有出现在美国媒体上的原因是媒体中的某些种族——这就是她使用的短语，某些种族——不希望这些故事流传出去。
Her family said the same thing to me.
她的家人也对我说了同样的话。
The man at the mosque around the corner from her house said it, too.
她家附近清真寺里的那个男人也这么说。
After I'd spent a few hours with Rawah's family, the phrase "certain ethnicities" just shortened into "Jews."
在我和拉瓦的家人待了几个小时后，“某些种族”这个词就缩写成了“犹太人”。
The fact that they'd say this to a member of the supposed Zionist media conspiracy just shows how hard it is for them to imagine any other explanation for the way Arabs are portrayed in the news.
事实上，他们会对所谓的犹太复国主义媒体阴谋的成员说这句话，这一事实表明，他们很难想象对新闻中阿拉伯人的描绘方式有任何其他解释。
I think it didn't even occur to them that it might be offensive.
我认为他们甚至没有想到这可能会令人反感。
And if all this seems bigotted and hard to swallow, consider how it looks from their side.
如果这一切看起来很偏执且难以接受，请从他们的角度考虑一下。
Rawah hears about all sorts news from her sister, from Arabic TV, that is either downplayed or ignored in the Western media.
拉瓦从她姐姐那里从阿拉伯电视台听到了各种各样的新闻，这些新闻要么被西方媒体淡化，要么被忽视。
What else could explain it?
还有什么可以解释呢？
Ali Abunimah runs a website where he tracks anti-Arab bias in the American media.
阿里·阿布尼玛 (Ali Abunimah) 运营着一个网站，追踪美国媒体中的反阿拉伯偏见。
He doesn't think there's a Jewish conspiracy skewing the coverage, but he says people believe it because, in their day-to-day experience, Israel seems capable of pulling anything off.
他不认为犹太人的阴谋歪曲了报道，但他说人们相信这一点，因为根据他们的日常经验，以色列似乎有能力实现任何目标。
Sure, Israelis see themselves as the underdogs, a tiny state surrounded by hostile neighbors.
当然，以色列人认为自己是弱者，是一个被敌对邻国包围的小国。
But from a Palestinian perspective, nothing seems beyond Israel's reach.
但从巴勒斯坦人的角度来看，似乎没有什么是以色列无法企及的。
I think there's an issue of power here.
我觉得这里有一个权力的问题。
When you have an overwhelmingly powerful force like Israel and people who have lived under occupation-- people whose entire life is controlled by the whim of this power, whether you can get up in the morning, go to work, is up to the mood of the Israeli soldier at the checkpoint.
当你拥有像以色列这样的压倒性强大的力量和生活在占领下的人民时——他们的整个生活都被这种力量的突发奇想控制着，你能否早上起床、上班，就取决于检查站以色列士兵的心情。
Whether your house will be demolished is up to the Israelis.
你的房子拆不拆，是以色列人的事。
Whether you're allowed in or out of the country is up to the Israelis.
是否允许您进出该国取决于以色列人。
Whether you're allowed to go from this village to that village is up to the Israelis.
是否允许你从这个村庄去那个村庄取决于以色列人。
Everything is up to the Israelis.
一切都取决于以色列人。
So people experience the Israelis as a powerful, overwhelmingly powerful, force.
因此，人们认为以色列是一支强大的、压倒性的强大力量。
And in fact, the Israelis have always tried to inculcate that in people, the myth of invincibility, the Israeli secret service, the Mossad, that it has this omnipotence.
事实上，以色列人一直试图向人们灌输无敌的神话，以色列特勤局，摩萨德，它拥有这种无所不能的力量。
Which a lot of people believe, especially when they're in a much weaker position.
很多人都相信这一点，尤其是当他们处于弱势地位时。
You know, you might believe a lot of things.
你知道，你可能相信很多事情。
And look at what Israel has already convinced people of, Ali says.
阿里说，看看以色列已经让人们相信了什么。
Most of the West believes the creation of the state of Israel was completely fair and just.
大多数西方人认为以色列国的创建是完全公平和公正的。
An inspiring story, refugees from World War II and the Holocaust who finally got a state.
这是一个鼓舞人心的故事，二战和大屠杀中的难民最终获得了一个国家。
From an Arab perspective, it's incredible.
从阿拉伯人的角度来看，这是不可思议的。
It's so different from the experience of Palestinians, who are often brutally and forcibly expelled.
这与巴勒斯坦人的经历非常不同，巴勒斯坦人经常被残酷地、强行驱逐。
And people say, look how Israel got away with doing this to us and getting the world to believe something different.
人们说，看看以色列是如何对我们这样做并让世界相信不同的事情的。
And if they can do that in that most fundamental instance, then what can't they do?
如果他们能在最基本的情况下做到这一点，那么他们不能做什么呢？
Ali is Palestinian and believes that the biases of the Western press aren't necessarily the things the reporters are even conscious of.
阿里是巴勒斯坦人，他认为西方媒体的偏见不一定是记者们意识到的。
Consider the fact that no foreign journalists covering Israel, Palestine, live in the occupied territories.
考虑一下这样一个事实：被占领土上没有报道以色列和巴勒斯坦的外国记者。
I think there's one, I think the Economist's correspondent lives in Gaza, or at least used to.
我认为有一个，我认为《经济学人》的记者住在加沙，或者至少曾经住在加沙。
So what happens, is that when a reporter goes there, they become, functionally speaking, an Israeli.
那么发生的事情是，当记者去那里时，从功能上来说，他们就变成了以色列人。
You know, they live amongst Israelis.
你知道，他们生活在以色列人中间。
The children go to Israeli schools.
孩子们在以色列学校上学。
They wake up in the morning, they go and get their cup of coffee, they're surrounded by Israelis.
他们早上醒来，去喝咖啡，周围都是以色列人。
And so their fears become those of Israelis.
因此，他们的恐惧也变成了以色列人的恐惧。
I remember an NPR reporter being interviewed about how she copes with the fear of suicide bombings.
我记得一位 NPR 记者接受采访，讲述她如何应对自杀性爆炸的恐惧。
And she said, well I and my friends, you know, we go out a bit less.
她说，好吧，我和我的朋友们，你知道，我们出去的次数少了一些。
She was speaking in the first person.
她以第一人称说话。
So there's no reporter who can speak in the first person as to what it's like to be a Palestinian.
因此，没有记者能够以第一人称讲述巴勒斯坦人的感受。
So there's an issue of perspective.
所以这里存在一个观点问题。
It's not that there's conscious bias.
这并不是说存在有意识的偏见。
But if you're living in one place that's totally different, that's like a first world environment, as West Jerusalem is, you're going to have a very different perspective.
但如果你生活在一个完全不同的地方，就像第一世界的环境，比如西耶路撒冷，你会有一个非常不同的视角。
A few days after the September 11th attacks, I gave Rawah a tape recorder to keep a kind of audio diary of her life.
9 月 11 日袭击发生几天后，我给了拉瓦一台录音机，用来记录她的生活的音频日记。
About a week into it, she recorded this.
大约一周后，她记录了这一点。
OK.
好的。
Right now it's 8:05.
现在是 8 点 05 分。
And as soon as I got home, my mom told me that on the Arabic satellite they brought that about 4,000 Israeli people that are employed in the World Trade Center did not go to work on Tuesday.
我一回到家，妈妈就告诉我，他们在阿拉伯卫星上报道说，在世贸中心工作的大约 4000 名以色列人周二没有上班。
And Ariel Sharon was supposed to be in a meeting in New York on Tuesday, but he canceled it.
阿里尔·沙龙原定于周二在纽约参加一个会议，但他取消了会议。
Also, there were Jews, photographers, on top of the building, a few buildings.
此外，还有犹太人、摄影师，在建筑物的顶部，有几栋建筑物。
They were getting ready to take pictures.
他们正准备拍照。
So the assumption now is that the Jews are the ones who did it.
所以现在的假设是犹太人是干这事的人。
A couple days after Rawah recorded that, I was invited to her house for a lunch being held for her sister-in-law's sister who was visiting from Jordan.
拉瓦录制这段视频几天后，我被邀请去她家参加为从约旦来访的她嫂子的妹妹举办的午餐会。
Lots of people, huge trays of food were laid out on the coffee tables in front of us, and toddlers and kids swarmed around.
很多人，我们面前的咖啡桌上摆着巨大的食物托盘，幼儿和孩子们蜂拥而至。
At the very end, as we were clearing the dishes, one woman asked me, how come the government and the media are always blaming the Arabs for everything, when they have hardly any evidence?
最后，当我们清理盘子时，一位女士问我，为什么政府和媒体总是把一切都归咎于阿拉伯人，而他们却几乎没有任何证据？
Have you heard about the 4,000 Israelis who didn't show up for work at the World Trade Center on Tuesday?
您听说过周二有 4,000 名以色列人没有到世贸中心上班的消息吗？
And then again, later, after all the women had gone, Rawah's brother-in-law came over.
后来，当所有的女人都走了之后，拉瓦的姐夫又过来了。
He runs an Islamic community group and wanted to give me some press releases that have been faxed to him.
他经营着一个伊斯兰社区团体，想给我一些传真给他的新闻稿。
He then told me that it probably didn't matter, and that I wouldn't report it, anyway.
然后他告诉我这可能并不重要，而且我也不会举报。
But had I heard about the 4,000 Israelis in the World Trade Center?
但我听说过世贸中心有 4,000 名以色列人吗？
It's not clear how widely believed this rumor is.
目前还不清楚这个谣言有多少人相信。
It appears to have originated on the Hamas website-- yes, they have a website.
它似乎起源于哈马斯网站——是的，他们有一个网站。
And then was spread on Al-Manar, the Lebanese TV channel-- not on the news broadcast, but on the call-in shows.
然后，这个消息在黎巴嫩电视频道 Al-Manar 上传播开来——不是在新闻广播中，而是在热线节目中。
Viewers would phone in and repeat the rumors as the truth.
观众会打电话来并重复谣言是事实。
There's no polling of Arabs or Arab Americans on these kinds of things.
没有对阿拉伯人或阿拉伯裔美国人就此类事情进行民意调查。
But of the five representatives of Arab American organizations I spoke to, all of them had heard of this rumor, and all of them said it's not widely believed here in the States.
但在我采访过的五位阿拉伯裔美国人组织的代表中，他们都听说过这个谣言，而且他们都表示，在美国，这个谣言并未被广泛相信。
Lots of rumors get more play.
许多谣言得到更多发挥。
For instance, there was a rumor a few months ago that McDonald's was donating its profits to Israel.
例如，几个月前有传言称麦当劳将把利润捐赠给以色列。
A spokesman for the Arab American anti-defamation league in Washington says he got over 4,000 emails about that rumor.
华盛顿阿拉伯裔美国反诽谤联盟的一位发言人表示，他收到了 4,000 多封有关该谣言的电子邮件。
By comparison, he's received only 15 or 20 emails on this latest one.
相比之下，他只收到了 15 到 20 封有关最新一封的电子邮件。
One reason Rawah's family believes the rumor is true is this: who benefits from the attacks on the World Trade Center?
拉瓦的家人相信谣言属实的原因之一是：谁从世贸中心袭击中受益？
Not the Arabs, they say, not the Muslims.
他们说，不是阿拉伯人，也不是穆斯林。
Instead, Rawah says that up until this point, the war in the Middle East has been between the Arabs and Israelis.
相反，拉瓦表示，到目前为止，中东战争一直是阿拉伯人和以色列人之间的战争。
But the September 11th attacks, she says, will necessarily bring the US into that war, turning an Arab-Israeli war into an Arab and American war.
但她说，9 月 11 日的袭击必然会让美国卷入这场战争，将阿以战争变成阿拉伯和美国的战争。
As far as she's concerned, this is what Israel has wanted all along.
在她看来，这就是以色列一直想要的。
This is why, she says, Israel would attack the US but frame the Arabs for the crime.
她说，这就是为什么以色列会攻击美国，但却将罪行归咎于阿拉伯人。
Till now, no Israeli name has been mentioned of one of the victims.
到目前为止，还没有提到其中一名受害者的以色列名字。
No Jews, nobody has been reported that they were hurt.
没有犹太人，没有人报告说他们受伤了。
But you know what?
但你知道吗？
Actually, after you and I talked, I went through and looked at names of people who were missing, and there are Jews missing.
其实你我谈话之后，我查了一下失踪人员的名字，还有犹太人失踪。
There are?
有？
That were killed in that building?
在那栋楼里被杀了？
Yeah.
是的。
Rawah Well, how about the employees that did not go to work that day?
Rawah 那么，那天没有上班的员工呢？
If it was true that there were 4,000 Israelis who worked at the World Trade Center and didn't show up for work that day, that would mean that one in 15 people who work at the World Trade Center are Israeli.
如果确实有 4,000 名以色列人在世贸中心工作，但当天没有上班，那就意味着在世贸中心工作的人中有十分之一是以色列人。
Which is just not true.
这不是真的。
You know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
I see what you're saying.
我明白你在说什么。
And I don't know who did it, exactly, and no one knows yet.
我不知道到底是谁干的，目前还没人知道。
Because no one in the world, yet, have any real evidence of who attacked the World Trade Center.
因为世界上还没有人有任何真正的证据证明谁袭击了世贸中心。
At this point, 130 Israelis are still officially unaccounted for.
截至目前，仍有 130 名以色列人下落不明。
The confirmed Israeli deaths are these: two passengers on the hijacked planes, and the body of a third Israeli found at the World Trade Center, and buried.
已确认的以色列死亡人数如下：被劫持飞机上的两名乘客，以及在世界贸易中心发现并埋葬的第三名以色列人的尸体。
Ali Abunimah says no one he knows believes the rumor about the 4,000 Israelis.
阿里·阿布尼玛 (Ali Abunimah) 表示，他认识的人都不相信有关 4,000 名以色列人的谣言。
But, he says, part of the rumor's appeal is that it takes the heat off Arabs.
但是，他说，谣言的部分吸引力在于它可以减轻阿拉伯人的愤怒。
You know, one of the first feelings I had, and many others, is please God don't let this be someone from the Middle East.
你知道，我的第一感觉之一，以及其他许多人的感觉，是求上帝不要让这个人成为来自中东的人。
We don't want it to be, we disown, we renounce this act.
我们不希望这样，我们否认，我们放弃这种行为。
This is a horrific atrocity, a crime against humanity was committed in New York.
这是一场可怕的暴行，是在纽约犯下的反人类罪。
So saying it's a Zionist conspiracy is a way to dissociate yourself from it completely.
因此，说这是犹太复国主义阴谋是让自己与它完全分离的一种方式。
You know, if people supported it, they'd be saying, yay, you know, strike one for the Muslims.
你知道，如果人们支持它，他们会说，是的，你知道，为穆斯林打一个。
No one is saying that.
没有人这么说。
They're all looking for a way out.
他们都在寻找出路。
Rawah just can't believe a Muslim could have been behind the attacks.
拉瓦简直不敢相信穆斯林会是这些袭击的幕后黑手。
The Koran wouldn't allow it.
《古兰经》不允许这样做。
Besides, she says, where's the proof?
此外，她说，证据在哪里？
And this actually seems to be the biggest difference between the way people from Arab countries see recent events and the way most Americans see them.
这实际上似乎是阿拉伯国家人们看待最近发生的事件的方式与大多数美国人看待这些事件的方式之间的最大区别。
It's not about the rumors, it's about Osama bin Laden.
这不是关于谣言，而是关于奥萨马·本·拉登。
Most of the Arab Americans I spoke with are still waiting for proof linking him to the attacks, for some sort of hard evidence to be released to the public.
与我交谈过的大多数阿拉伯裔美国人仍在等待将他与袭击事件联系起来的证据，等待向公众发布某种确凿的证据。
And they're skeptical it'll ever come.
他们怀疑它是否会到来。
Rawah believes bin Laden is just a convenient scapegoat.
拉瓦认为本拉登只是一个方便的替罪羊。
Now, I wouldn't be surprised if this Halloween you have kids and people dressed as Osama bin Laden.
现在，如果今年万圣节有孩子和人们打扮成奥萨马·本·拉登，我不会感到惊讶。
Strongly believe so.
坚信如此。
I went to Dominick's the other day and I was shopping and I see all these Pumpkins and costumes.
前几天我去多米尼克家购物，看到了所有这些南瓜和服装。
And there's the first thing that came into my mind.
我首先想到的就是这个。
Because Americans now are afraid of something called Osama bin Laden.
因为美国人现在害怕一个叫奥萨马·本·拉登的东西。
Or something that is called Mohammed or Islam or Arabs.
或者称为穆罕默德、伊斯兰教或阿拉伯人的东西。
Rawah believes Israel is all-powerful, and capable of everything she sees as bad.
拉瓦相信以色列是全能的，她认为以色列有能力做任何坏事。
Most Americans wouldn't agree with her about that.
大多数美国人不会同意她的观点。
Meanwhile, from an Arab point of view, we're doing the same thing with Osama bin Laden.
与此同时，从阿拉伯的角度来看，我们正在对奥萨马·本·拉登做同样的事情。
He seems all-powerful.
他看起来无所不能。
We're ready to believe it was him, even if we haven't seen the greatest proof.
即使我们还没有看到最有力的证据，我们也准备相信那就是他。
Maybe everyone needs a boogeyman.
也许每个人都需要一个妖怪。
Julie Snyder.
朱莉·斯奈德。
Act Two: Bombs Over Baghdad Ira Glass Act Two.
第二幕：巴格达 Ira Glass 上空的炸弹 第二幕。
Bombs over Baghdad.
巴格达上空有炸弹。
Issam Shukri is an architect living in Toronto.
Issam Shukri 是一位居住在多伦多的建筑师。
But during the Persian Gulf War, he lived in Baghdad, where he grew up.
但在海湾战争期间，他住在巴格达，他在那里长大。
His experience of the war was of course very different than most of ours in this country.
他的战争经历当然与我们这个国家大多数人的经历非常不同。
He remembers clearly how he learned that his country had invaded Kuwait.
他清楚地记得他是如何得知自己的国家入侵科威特的。
Me and my wife used to work in two different rooms in the same sort of building.
我和我的妻子曾经在同一栋大楼的两个不同房间里工作。
And she always listened to Kuwaiti station, the national Kuwaiti station, because it has some more fun songs and mixture of songs, and stuff like that.
她总是听科威特电台，科威特国家电台，因为它有一些更有趣的歌曲和歌曲的混合，诸如此类的东西。
But anyway, so she was trying to find that station, but she couldn't.
但无论如何，她试图找到那个车站，但她找不到。
She said, Issam, it seems there's something wrong with the radio, I can't find that station.
她说，伊萨姆，收音机好像有问题，我找不到那个电台。
So I start to flip through the stations.
于是我开始翻阅各个电台。
And I put it on our Baghdad station, and, boy, I started to hear the marches and the military music.
我把它放在我们的巴格达电台，天哪，我开始听到进行曲和军乐。
Did that automatically mean you knew that there was trouble?
这是否自动意味着您知道有麻烦了？
Yes.
是的。
That was the government's sort of announcement, in music, to times of trouble.
这就是政府在音乐中向困难时期发出的某种公告。
We sense it when we, for instance, hear emotional love songs, we think that the regime is taking a break a little bit.
例如，当我们听到情感丰富的情歌时，我们会感觉到这一点，我们认为这个政权正在稍微休息一下。
So at the time, we heard that and instantly we knew that there was a military or some kind of problem.
所以当时，我们听到这个消息后，立即知道存在军队或某种问题。
I heard about the invasion by dashing out into the street, and saying, what happened?
当我听到入侵的消息时，我冲到街上问，发生了什么事？
And people, in a lower voice, well Saddam invaded Kuwait.
人们低声说，萨达姆入侵了科威特。
And he's calling people to go and fight over there in the front.
他正在号召人们去前线战斗。
And I said, I sort of struck my head and I said, not again.
我说，我有点撞到了我的头，我说，不要再这样了。
And that war, of course, an incredibly bloody war.
当然，那场战争是一场极其血腥的战争。
Estimates of the dead range up to 1.5 million.
估计死亡人数高达 150 万人。
Iraq used chemical weapons in the war.
伊拉克在战争中使用了化学武器。
Can you talk about what it felt like to know that you were being called up again to fight in this conflict for somebody who you didn't support?
您能谈谈当您再次被征召为您不支持的人参加这场冲突时的感受吗？
Well, I don't know.
嗯，我不知道。
Ira, it's the most individualist, as well as a collective, miserable experience that you will ever have.
艾拉，这是你将经历过的最个人主义的经历，同时也是一次集体的、悲惨的经历。
Because you are facing, actually, not one enemy.
因为你实际上面对的不是一个敌人。
You are facing two enemies-- one in your back, and one in your face.
你面对着两个敌人——一个在你的背后，一个在你的脸上。
And when you turn to run away, you see the back enemy trying to shoot you.
当你转身逃跑时，你看到后面的敌人正试图向你开枪。
That is the government of Iraq, right.
那是伊拉克政府，对吧。
I couldn't picture myself putting on the same uniform and fighting for a regime, a bloody regime, again.
我无法想象自己再次穿上同样的制服，为一个政权，一个血腥的政权而战。
So that was my feeling.
这就是我的感觉。
And the next day I had to go to that military center and join the forces.
第二天我必须去那个军事中心参军。
But as I was an architect, I was actually allocated to the back of the front, and inside the city of Baghdad.
但由于我是一名建筑师，所以我实际上被分配到前面的后面，并且在巴格达市内。
Oh so you were very lucky.
哦，所以你很幸运。
Issam Shukri I was, actually.
事实上，伊萨姆·舒克里（Issam Shukri）就是我。
But some of my classmates, they were sent out to the front.
但我的一些同学，他们被派往前线了。
And some of them faced their deaths there, they were killed.
他们中的一些人在那里面临死亡，他们被杀了。
Did they have the same kinds of feelings about Saddam that you did?
他们对萨达姆的感情和你一样吗？
That they didn't like the regime?
他们不喜欢这个政权？
Talk about the air strikes.
谈论空袭。
Could you talk about what that was like?
你能谈谈那是什么样的吗？
You were in Baghdad when the US started its 38 day air campaign against Iraq.
当美国开始对伊拉克进行为期 38 天的空袭时，您正在巴格达。
Right.
正确的。
Actually, Ira, at the time we were waiting because James Baker, at the time, warned Iraq that, we are going to put you back in the Middle Ages.
事实上，艾拉，当时我们正在等待，因为詹姆斯·贝克当时警告伊拉克，我们将把你带回到中世纪。
And everybody knew about that, but nobody believed it.
每个人都知道这一点，但没有人相信。
Nobody believed it?
没人相信吗？
Issam Shukri Yes.
伊萨姆·舒克里 是的。
Yes, we didn't believe that it's going to happen.
是的，我们不相信这会发生。
It's over 100 countries are gathering their forces with an unprecedented show of force in the human history, against 22 million people.
100多个国家正在集结力量，向2200万人展示人类历史上前所未有的武力。
We couldn't believe that this could be something true.
我们无法相信这可能是真的。
I couldn't believe that the representative of the most so-called civilized country would utter such nonsense.
我简直不敢相信，一个所谓最文明国家的代表会说出这样的废话。
Forgive me for that.
请原谅我。
So where were you when the bombing campaign began?
那么轰炸行动开始时你在哪里？
Yeah, I was in my home with my wife and my three-year-old son.
是的，我和我的妻子以及我三岁的儿子在家里。
And I was renovating my house.
我正在装修我的房子。
I was like two years, three years married to my wife.
我和我妻子结婚已经两年、三年了。
And I was sort of dividing my family home into two little homes.
我把我的家分成了两个小房子。
One is for my sister and one is for my family.
一份是给我妹妹的，一份是给我家人的。
And as a show of, you know, emotional support, we all slept-- we had mattresses on the floor in my living room, which had doors open because I was renovating at the time.
为了表达情感支持，我们都睡觉了——我们客厅的地板上铺着床垫，客厅的门开着，因为我当时正在装修。
You know, I've brought a lot of paint to paint my living room.
你知道，我带了很多油漆来粉刷我的客厅。
So anyway, we slept, and that night, the night of the 17th of January, in my living room, and we sort of kissed each other and we fell asleep.
不管怎样，我们睡了，那天晚上，1 月 17 日的晚上，在我的客厅里，我们互相亲吻了一下，然后就睡着了。
And exactly at 2 A.M.
就在凌晨 2 点。
we all woke up and the ground was shaking violently.
我们都醒了，地面剧烈震动。
And it was like a deep, deep, sort of echo happening, coming down from the ground.
这就像一种深深的、深深的、类似的回声，从地面传来。
And the streetlights were on at the time, and in five minutes, all the lights were out.
而且当时路灯还亮着，五分钟后，所有的灯都灭了。
And we, at that minute, we were certain that this is the war and we're back again.
在那一刻，我们确信这就是战争，我们又回来了。
We're facing death all over again.
我们再次面临死亡。
I, personally, Ira, I'm not ashamed of this-- I started to shake.
就我个人而言，艾拉，我并不为此感到羞耻——我开始颤抖。
My hands couldn't hold anything.
我的双手无法握住任何东西。
I grabbed my--
我抓住了我的——
Take a second.
等一下。
Issam Shukri I grabbed my little kid.
Issam Shukri 我抓住了我的小孩。
And he was crying, he didn't know what was happening.
他哭了，他不知道发生了什么。
I remember my son, when he heard the B-52 over his head.
我记得我儿子听到 B-52 飞过头顶的声音。
I put my hand on his heart and I felt his heart bumping like crazy.
我把手放在他的心脏上，我感觉到他的心脏疯狂地跳动。
And ironically, I went to the wash the next five, six times in five minutes.
具有讽刺意味的是，接下来的五分钟内我去洗手间五六次。
You know, when you have this kind of stress, I needed go to the wash room.
你知道，当你有这种压力时，我需要去洗手间。
As mundane as this is, but I need to tell the Americans about it.
尽管这很平常，但我需要告诉美国人。
The fear is very, very frightening when you're expecting your death.
当你等待死亡时，恐惧是非常非常可怕的。
It's much more frightening that when it happens suddenly, if you're asleep, or if you're embarking on your work, or whatever.
更可怕的是当它突然发生时，如果你睡着了，或者你正在开始工作，或者其他什么。
But when you're expected minute by minute, second by second sometimes, it gets like a torture.
但有时，当你一分一秒、一秒一秒地被期待时，这就像是一种折磨。
So we were literally tortured.
所以我们确实受到了折磨。
And we started to wander with the streets.
我们开始在街上闲逛。
I looked around in my neighborhood.
我环顾四周。
And, by the way, our neighborhood looks pretty much like any American or Canadian neighborhood.
顺便说一句，我们的社区看起来很像美国或加拿大的社区。
You know, row houses or individual homes, with the front yards very nicely done.
你知道，排屋或独立住宅的前院都装修得很好。
You know, people that has the same qualities of life.
你知道，具有相同生活品质的人们。
The difference is that they live in constant fear.
不同的是，他们生活在持续的恐惧之中。
And you were with your three-year-old boy.
你和你三岁的儿子在一起。
Right.
正确的。
Well actually, I was very worried about this guy, because he was very young.
事实上，我很担心这个人，因为他还很年轻。
And you know when fear, when you start your life by experiencing fear and bombing, it would leave scars in your soul for the rest of your life.
你知道，当恐惧时，当你通过经历恐惧和轰炸来开始你的生活时，它会在你的灵魂中留下终生的伤疤。
And I think he's fine now.
我认为他现在很好。
But he kept asking me, why are they doing this to us?
但他一直问我，他们为什么要这样对我们？
What have we done?
我们做了什么？
And I couldn't find the right answer because he was very young at the time.
我找不到正确的答案，因为他当时还很年轻。
I couldn't go into deep political analysis of what's going on.
我无法对正在发生的事情进行深入的政治分析。
But I told him, there is a bad guy who did something wrong.
但我告诉他，有一个坏人做了坏事。
And there are some judges of the world who wanted to take the law by their hand, and then they come and punish him.
世界上有一些法官想要用手掌握法律，然后他们来惩罚他。
And then I stop for one second, and say, but they are punishing us.
然后我停了一下，说，但他们正在惩罚我们。
But we are scared, he's not scared.
但我们害怕，他不害怕。
Did he ask, why are they bombing all of us if they're just trying to get this bad man?
他有没有问，如果他们只是想抓住这个坏人，为什么要轰炸我们所有人？
Well, Ira, I didn't try to justify what the American forces were doing.
好吧，艾拉，我并没有试图为美军的所作所为辩护。
To tell you the truth, I'm not going to polish my words.
说实话，我不会修饰我的话。
I told him that, you know, after days and days of bombing I at first told him that, well there are some judges who are going to catch this man.
我告诉他，你知道，经过几天又几天的轰炸，我首先告诉他，有一些法官会抓住这个人。
And, you know, he's an outlaw, they're going to put him in jail.
而且，你知道，他是个亡命之徒，他们会把他关进监狱。
I try to make things like a story to his age.
我试着把事情写成适合他这个年龄的故事。
And then after that I start to feel frustrated, myself, because I see people slaughtered in front of my eyes.
然后我自己就开始感到沮丧，因为我看到人们在我眼前被屠杀。
And Saddam comes out in the screens, laughing with his ugly face.
萨达姆出现在屏幕上，脸上露出丑陋的笑容。
So I started to tell him, well, those judges are sometimes more severe and sometimes they hit hard that the people themselves will suffer some injuries.
于是我就开始告诉他，嗯，那些法官有时比较严厉，有时打得很重，老百姓自己也会受到一些伤害。
But, again, that's OK.
但是，再说一遍，没关系。
Probably in the end, they will catch him.
也许最终，他们会抓住他。
But it never happened.
但它从未发生过。
And now he knows that it's not going to happen, neither in Iraq nor in Afghanistan, nor in anywhere in the world.
现在他知道这不会发生，无论是在伊拉克、阿富汗还是世界任何地方。
Was there a part of you which hoped the Americans would succeed and liberate Iraq from Saddam Hussein?
你们中是否有人希望美国人能够成功并将伊拉克从萨达姆·侯赛因手中解放出来？
To tell you the truth, I hoped for that.
说实话，我也这么希望。
But I felt deep, deep in heart that they're not going to catch this person.
但我内心深处感到他们不会抓住这个人。
I've always doubted that.
我一直对此表示怀疑。
And not only me, all the people in Iraq doubted that.
不仅是我，所有伊拉克人都对此表示怀疑。
Because there is always history that tells you lessons.
因为总有历史给你教训。
And there is the fresh memory when Saddam used the chemical weapons against Halabja-- which is a northern, very, very peaceful city-- in 1988, and killed 5,000 people in two hours.
1988 年，萨达姆对哈拉卜贾（Halabja）——一座非常非常和平的北方城市——使用化学武器，在两小时内杀死了 5,000 人，人们对此记忆犹新。
Nobody in the West raised a finger.
西方没有人举起一根手指头。
Nobody called him a terrorist, nobody called him a tyrant.
没有人称他为恐怖分子，没有人称他为暴君。
But when he touched a state that is a strong ally to the West, a state that is very rich in oil.
但当他触碰的是一个西方的强大盟友、一个石油资源非常丰富的国家时。
So we didn't have really trust to the West.
所以我们对西方并没有真正的信任。
It's a feeling that those people do not care about other nations.
感觉这些人不关心其他国家。
They can bomb any city, any minute, any time, without warning.
他们可以在没有任何警告的情况下，随时轰炸任何城市。
And what did you think about the United States at that time?
您当时对美国有何看法？
Did you hate the United States for the bombing?
你是否因为美国的爆炸事件而憎恨美国？
Did you feel a mix of feelings about it, because you hoped that they would come in?
你是否对此感到五味杂陈，因为你希望他们能进来？
I didn't like the United States.
我不喜欢美国。
As a government, as a military force-- not the people.
作为一个政府，作为一支军队——而不是人民。
I saw cruise missiles falling on buildings that are exactly-- unfortunately, I would say that it looked exactly to me like the World Trade Center.
我看到巡航导弹落在建筑物上，不幸的是，我想说它在我看来就像世贸中心一样。
I mean, when I saw the World Trade Center, those airplanes crashing into it, the first thing jumped into my head was when I saw one of the buildings-- I was driving from one part of the city to the other-- and I saw one of these building hit by a cruise missile.
我的意思是，当我看到世贸中心，那些飞机撞上它时，我脑海中浮现的第一件事就是当我看到其中一栋建筑时——我正从城市的一个地方开车到另一个地方——我看到其中一栋建筑被巡航导弹击中。
But some of these buildings where inhabited by civilians.
但其中一些建筑物居住着平民。
So, I do not hate, I don't like to use this word, but I was mad, I was angry at the United States government.
所以，我不讨厌，我不喜欢用这个词，但我很生气，我对美国政府感到愤怒。
Because it uses a lot of force, inhuman force, to punish very poor people.
因为它使用大量的武力，非人的武力来惩罚非常贫穷的人。
And were you also angry in Saddam for putting you all in this position?
你们是否也对萨达姆让你们陷入这样的境地感到愤怒？
Oh, in that respect, we hated Saddam.
哦，在这方面，我们讨厌萨达姆。
I would definitely use that word.
我肯定会用这个词。
Issam Shukri in Toronto.
伊萨姆·舒克里在多伦多。
In his spare time, he does a little work with a group that's trying to lift the economic sanctions that stop food and medicines from going into Iraq.
在业余时间，他与一个试图解除阻止食品和药品进入伊拉克的经济制裁的组织做一些工作。
He points out that 5,000 civilians are dying every month that the sanctions continue.
他指出，如果制裁继续下去，每个月都会有 5,000 名平民死亡。
Five thousand a month, every month, for the past 11 years.
过去11年来，每个月都有5000个。
Coming up, the war ahead, and lessons from a half hour battle that got out of hand in 1993.
接下来是未来的战争，以及 1993 年失控的半小时战斗的教训。
In a minute, from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life , I'm Ira Glass.
这就是美国生活，我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today on our program, current events Rashomon in which we look at familiar news stories from unfamiliar points of view, hoping that might shed some light on things, give some perspective on troubling events.
今天，在我们的节目《时事罗生门》中，我们从不熟悉的角度看待熟悉的新闻故事，希望能够对事情有所启发，对令人不安的事件提供一些看法。
We've arrived at Act Three of our program.
我们已经到了节目的第三幕了。
Act Three.
第三幕。
Toto, I don't think we're in Vietnam, anymore.
托托，我想我们已经不在越南了。
We've been told that the first part of the coming war on terror will involve US special operation forces tracking down suspected terrorists.
我们被告知，即将到来的反恐战争的第一部分将涉及美国特种部队追捕可疑的恐怖分子。
Perhaps it would be helpful to remember another mission like that in this moment.
也许此刻记住另一个类似的任务会有所帮助。
In the early 1990s, there was a UN peacekeeping mission in Somalia.
20世纪90年代初，联合国在索马里执行维和任务。
In that country there were a number of rival factions competing for power.
在那个国家，有许多敌对派系争夺权力。
In June of 1993, a local militia leader named Mohamed Aidid ambushed and killed 19 Pakistani soldiers from the UN mission.
1993年6月，当地民兵领导人穆罕默德·艾迪德伏击并杀死了联合国代表团的19名巴基斯坦士兵。
The Clinton administration dispatched a squad of special operatives to capture Aidid and dismantle his military organization.
克林顿政府派出了一队特工去抓捕艾迪德并瓦解他的军事组织。
The squad consisted of two elite military teams, the Rangers and the Delta Force.
该小队由两支精锐军事队伍组成：游骑兵队和三角洲部队。
On October 3, 1993, their mission was to capture two of Aidid's top commanders.
1993年10月3日，他们的任务是抓获艾迪德的两名高级指挥官。
Mark Bowden wrote a book about the battle called Black Hawk Down .
马克·鲍登写了一本关于这场战役的书，名为《黑鹰坠落》。
He talked to producer Alex Blumberg about that day and the mission to capture those two men.
他与制片人亚历克斯·布隆伯格谈论了那天以及抓捕这两个人的任务。
And they had been spotted speaking at a rally in Mogadishu earlier that morning, and had been observed by spies on the ground and in the air traveling to a house in the center of Mogadishu, in an area called the Bakara Market.
当天早上早些时候，他们被发现在摩加迪沙的一次集会上发表讲话，并被地面和空中的间谍观察到，他们前往摩加迪沙市中心一个名为巴卡拉市场的地区的一所房子。
And so General William F.
威廉·F.
Garrison, who was the leader of Task Force Ranger, authorized a raid which was to swoop in very quickly on this house and arrest these two guys and anyone who was with them, and bring them back to the base.
加里森是游骑兵特遣队的队长，他授权进行一次突袭，迅速突袭这所房子，逮捕这两个人以及与他们在一起的任何人，并将他们带回基地。
And the mission, it didn't exactly work out the way it was supposed to.
而任务并没有完全按照预期的方式进行。
No. The mission was envisioned as taking about 30 minutes-- or basically 30 minutes on the ground and maybe another 30 minutes to convoy the prisoners out of the city.
不。这次任务预计需要大约 30 分钟——或者说在地面上基本上需要 30 分钟，也许还需要 30 分钟才能将囚犯护送出城。
In the end, how long did it end up taking and how many lives were lost?
最后，到底花了多长时间，又有多少人丧生？
In the end, the battle lasted about 15 hours, through a long night and into early the next day.
最终，战斗持续了约15个小时，度过了漫漫长夜，一直持续到第二天凌晨。
Eighteen American soldiers were killed.
十八名美国士兵被杀。
It was the most significant firefight that American soldiers have been involved with since the war in Vietnam.
这是自越南战争以来美国士兵参与的最重大的交火。
The way the raid was set up, the Delta Force operators would hit the ground first.
按照突袭的安排方式，三角洲特种部队的操作员将首先到达地面。
They ride on benches on the outside of these little helicopters-- AH-6s, they call them Little Birds-- and are literally put right down in front of the house.
他们坐在这些小型直升机（AH-6，他们称之为“小鸟”）外面的长凳上，实际上就停在房子前面。
They land right on the street.
他们就降落在街道上。
So the Delta Force operators were inserted in that way.
所以三角洲特种部队的特工就是这样被插入的。
And then the bigger Blackhawk helicopters come in.
然后更大的黑鹰直升机登场。
The Blackhawks are too big to land on the street.
黑鹰队太大了，无法降落在街上。
So they hover overhead, and the Rangers rope down to each of the four corners of the block where this operation was taking place.
因此，他们在头顶盘旋，而游骑兵则用绳索降落到进行此次行动的街区的四个角落。
Well, what was the first thing that didn't go as planned?
那么，第一件没有按计划进行的事情是什么？
Well as the Rangers roped into the four corners, one of the young rangers, a fellow named Todd Blackburn, actually missed the rope and fell 70 feet from the helicopter to the street.
当游骑兵队用绳索进入四个角落时，其中一名年轻的游骑兵，名叫托德·布莱克本（Todd Blackburn）的小伙子，实际上没有抓住绳索，从直升机上掉到了 70 英尺高的街道上。
You know, this was the most serious injury that any of these units had sustained since they'd come a month before.
你知道，这是这些部队自一个月前到来以来遭受的最严重的伤害。
And it caused certainly a great deal of alarm within his little Ranger unit there.
这无疑在他的小游骑兵部队中引起了极大的恐慌。
And it set in motion a chain of events that kind of just slowed the whole process down.
它引发了一系列事件，从而减慢了整个过程。
Not a lot, but a little.
不是很多，而是一点点。
One of the very first things in the book is when you're talking about, they're hanging from these helicopters on these ropes, they're seventy feet above the ground, they have to slide down these ropes, and then sort of establish their position.
书中最重要的一件事是，当你谈论时，他们悬挂在这些直升机上的这些绳索上，它们距离地面七十英尺，他们必须沿着这些绳索滑下，然后确定自己的位置。
And just the confusion of it all was just-- like, what do they see as they're coming down?
令人困惑的是，当他们下来时，他们看到了什么？
Well, initially, as the men descended the ropes to the street, they could see almost nothing.
好吧，最初，当这些人顺着绳索来到街上时，他们几乎什么也看不见。
Because the helicopters, the Blackhawks are so powerful, they kicked up huge clouds of dust.
因为黑鹰直升机非常强大，它们扬起了巨大的尘埃云。
So they're roping down in a dust storm, so they can't really even see much past their nose.
所以他们在沙尘暴中被绳索困住，所以他们甚至看不到任何东西。
And they're hearing, for the first time, pretty heavy fire.
他们第一次听到相当猛烈的火声。
Learning the sound of bullets that pass very closely make a loud, cracking noise, like a piece of hickory being snapped.
学习近距离穿过的子弹会发出巨大的破裂声，就像一块山核桃被折断一样。
So the only way you can tell how close a bullet is is by the sound it makes?
那么判断子弹距离的唯一方法是通过它发出的声音吗？
That's what they tell me.
他们就是这么告诉我的。
I've never, fortunately, been in a situation where people have been shooting at me.
幸运的是，我从来没有遇到过人们向我开枪的情况。
But there's sort of a whooshing sound that you hear if the bullet passes somewhere in your vicinity.
但是，如果子弹经过您附近的某个地方，您会听到一种嘶嘶的声音。
But if it's close enough to you, you hear what's essentially a little sonic boom as the round goes past you.
但如果它离你足够近，当子弹经过你身边时，你会听到本质上是一点音爆的声音。
And, of course, they say the one that hits you, you never hear.
当然，他们说，那些击中你的声音，你永远也听不到。
And most of the guys were learning this for the first time on this mission.
大多数人都是在这次任务中第一次了解到这一点。
That's right.
这是正确的。
These are very young soldiers, they're well-trained, and very cocky, and very capable.
这些都是非常年轻的士兵，他们训练有素，非常自大，而且非常有能力。
But they had never been exposed to fire like this.
但他们从来没有像这样接触过火。
And they had never seen the guys next to them suddenly start to drop.
他们从来没有见过旁边的人突然开始倒下。
Matt Eversmann, who was put in charge of this mission for the first time, one by one the men in his unit scattered around the street where they'd just landed are beginning to sustain injuries.
马特·埃弗斯曼（Matt Eversmann）首次负责这次任务，他的部队中分散在他们刚刚降落的街道上的人都开始受伤。
They get shot.
他们被枪杀了。
Mark Bowden They get shot, right.
马克·鲍登 他们被枪杀了，对吧。
One of them gets his thumb shot off, another gets shot in the shoulder-- he just starts seeing his men go down.
其中一个人的拇指被击中，另一个人的肩膀中弹——他刚刚开始看到他的手下倒下。
So this was a very, very dangerous place to go.
所以这是一个非常非常危险的地方。
The rules of engagement were that the men, the American soldiers, were not allowed to shoot at someone unless they were pointing their weapons at them.
交战规则是，这些人，即美国士兵，不得向某人开枪，除非他们将武器指向某人。
And so the Somalis knew the rules of engagement.
因此索马里人知道交战规则。
So they mingled in with the angry crowds, who were not armed, so that they could fire at the Rangers without the Rangers being able to shoot back at them.
因此，他们混入了没有武器的愤怒人群中，这样他们就可以向游骑兵开枪，而游骑兵无法向他们开枪还击。
There was literally a scene where one of the Rangers was confronted with a Somali gunman who was laying on the ground.
确实有一个场景，其中一名游骑兵与一名躺在地上的索马里枪手对峙。
And he had children sitting on top of him.
他的身上还坐着孩子们。
And I think he had a woman standing right in front of him.
我认为他面前站着一个女人。
He had basically surrounded himself with non-competents so that he could lay there and shoot at the Rangers without being shot at himself.
他基本上把自己周围都是不合格的人，这样他就可以躺在那里向游骑兵队射击而不会被射中。
And actually what the Rangers in the situation did, was lay down a line of fire right in front of this man-- the children and the women fled very quickly, and then they shot the gunman.
事实上，游骑兵在这种情况下所做的就是在这名男子面前开火——孩子们和妇女们很快逃跑，然后他们射杀了枪手。
But eventually, they were under so much fire that the rules of engagement were just dropped.
但最终，他们受到了如此多的攻击，以至于交战规则被放弃了。
Because they realized that they had to shoot back.
因为他们意识到他们必须反击。
If they didn't, they weren't going to survive.
如果他们不这样做，他们就无法生存。
So some of these young men were in the position of having to shoot at crowds of people in order to avoid being killed, themselves.
因此，其中一些年轻人不得不向人群开枪，以避免自己被杀。
Well they proceeded to evacuate Todd Blackburn.
好吧，他们开始疏散托德·布莱克本。
The Rangers fanned out and formed the perimeter like they were supposed to.
游骑兵队像他们应该的那样呈扇形散开并形成了外围。
They began coming under more and more fire as the minutes went by.
随着时间的流逝，他们开始受到越来越多的攻击。
The Delta Operators arrested the people they were looking for.
达美航空运营商逮捕了他们要找的人。
They found them and handcuffed them and were leading them out of the building, when one of the Blackhawk helicopters that was still circling overhead, was hit by a rocket-propelled grenade, and crashed about four blocks away.
他们找到了他们，给他们戴上手铐，带他们走出大楼，这时一架仍在头顶盘旋的黑鹰直升机被一枚火箭推进式手榴弹击中，坠毁在大约四个街区外。
[RADIO] Mark Bowden All of the men involved in this mission are communicating with themselves by radio.
[无线电]马克·鲍登所有参与这次任务的人都通过无线电与自己进行交流。
All of these conversations were tape recorded.
所有这些谈话都被录音了。
One of the things that I found remarkable about listening to the audio tape is that you can hear the intensity of that moment.
我发现听录音带的非凡之处之一是你可以听到那一刻的强度。
When that Blackhawk helicopter crashes, you hear men shouting into the radio, we've got a Blackhawk down.
当那架黑鹰直升机坠毁时，你会听到人们对着收音机大喊，我们有一架黑鹰坠落了。
And you can hear the panic, almost, in their voices.
你几乎可以从他们的声音中听到恐慌。
[RADIO COMMUNICATION BETWEEN BLACKHAWK AND BASE]
[黑鹰与基地之间的无线电通讯]
To them, if you're on the ground in a city with literally thousands, if not tens of thousands of people surrounding you and shooting at you, your faith in getting out of there alive rests largely on those helicopters overhead.
对他们来说，如果你在一个城市的地面上，周围有数千人甚至数万人向你开枪，那么你能否活着离开那里的信心很大程度上取决于头顶上的直升机。
They are symbols for you of the fact that you're there representing the most powerful military force in the world.
它们是你们的象征，表明你们代表着世界上最强大的军事力量。
When the Blackhawk was shot down, that was the defining moment of this episode.
当黑鹰被击落时，这是这一集的决定性时刻。
The idea was to insert the men, take the prisoners, load them on vehicles, and drive them out of the city, and everyone would come back and have a barbecue.
我们的想法是把这些人放进去，抓走囚犯，把他们装上车，然后把他们赶出城，然后每个人都回来吃烧烤。
But once that Blackhawk went down, everything changed.
但当黑鹰坠落后，一切都变了。
Because now they had men down on the ground, either dead, wounded or fighting for their lives, and they had to try to rescue those men who had just crashed.
因为现在他们已经有人倒在地上，要么死了，要么受伤，要么正在为自己的生命而战，他们必须设法营救那些刚刚坠毁的人。
[RADIO COMMUNICATION BETWEEN BLACKHAWK AND BASE]
[黑鹰与基地之间的无线电通讯]
And so basically the convoy, which originally had been planned to just go back to the base with the prisoners, now has a totally different sort of mission.
因此，基本上，原本计划与囚犯一起返回基地的车队现在承担了完全不同的任务。
Right.
正确的。
Well this became one of the major phases of the battle, and certainly the bloodiest phase.
这成为了战斗的主要阶段之一，当然也是最血腥的阶段。
Once the Blackhawk was shot down, the orders were for the convoy to load up the prisoners and then drive to the neighborhood where the Blackhawk had crashed.
黑鹰被击落后，车队收到的命令是装载囚犯，然后驶往黑鹰坠毁的地区。
And the idea was then to rescue the men who had been aboard the helicopter and then drive out of the city.
当时的想法是营救直升机上的人，然后开车离开城市。
But the problem was that the streets of Mogadishu are like a maze.
但问题是摩加迪沙的街道就像迷宫一样。
And at this point, there are Somalis setting up burning barricades, and organizing ambushes at intersections.
此时，索马里人设置了燃烧的路障，并在十字路口组织伏击。
So as the convoy began to try to make its way to the downed Blackhawk, it got lost.
因此，当车队开始尝试前往被击落的黑鹰号时，却迷路了。
[RADIO] Mark Bowden It became a tragic comedy of errors with the pilots in the helicopters overhead.
[广播] 马克·鲍登 (Mark Bowden) 这成为了头顶直升机飞行员失误的悲喜剧。
And there was a Navy plane, a P-3 Orion, flying high overhead, all of them trying to give directions to this convoy.
还有一架海军飞机，一架 P-3 Orion，高高地飞过头顶，所有飞机都试图给这支车队指明方向。
But because of the, in some cases, the relay system of communicating to them, the people in the vehicles would get the instructions too late to take advantage of them.
但在某些情况下，由于与它们通信的中继系统，车内的人会太晚收到指令而无法利用它们。
So for instance, someone high overhead would say take a left.
例如，头顶高的人会说向左走。
And by the time that communicated to Danny McKnight in the lead vehicle, they'd already passed the point where they were supposed to take a left.
当与领头车辆中的丹尼·麦克奈特取得联系时，他们已经过了应该左转的地点。
[RADIO COMMUNICATION BETWEEN BLACKHAWK AND BASE]
[黑鹰与基地之间的无线电通讯]
The men in the vehicles in the rear of the convoy didn't even know what was going on.
车队后面的车里的人甚至不知道发生了什么事。
A lot of them still thought they were driving out of the city because no one had communicated to everybody down the line exactly where it was they were going and what they were trying to do.
他们中的许多人仍然认为他们要开车出城，因为没有人与沿线的每个人准确地沟通他们要去哪里以及他们想要做什么。
So you have these men holed up in these vehicles, one by one getting injured or killed, and not knowing where they were going, why they were making the turns they were making.
所以这些人躲在这些车辆里，一一受伤或死亡，不知道他们要去哪里，为什么要转弯。
And it's not something where you can stay inside.
而且这不是你可以呆在里面的地方。
Like, a Humvee isn't actually that much protection, it turns out.
事实证明，悍马车实际上并没有那么多保护作用。
Right.
正确的。
The convoy was made up of two five ton trucks, flatbed trucks, with the prisoners in the back, and, I believe, six Humvees.
车队由两辆五吨卡车、平板卡车组成，后面载着囚犯，我相信还有六辆悍马车。
And they discovered that rounds could go right through the skin of the Humvee.
他们发现子弹可以直接穿过悍马车的外壳。
For instance, one of the Humvees took a direct hit from a rocket-propelled grenade, which penetrated through the side and exploded in the back, blowing the men who were in the back of the Humvee out the rear of the vehicle, out onto the street.
例如，其中一辆悍马车受到火箭推进式手榴弹的直接击中，手榴弹穿透侧面并在后面爆炸，将悍马车后部的人员从车辆后部炸飞到街道上。
A couple of those men were killed, two or three others were severely injured.
其中几人被杀，另外两三人受重伤。
Whenever anything like that would happen, the convoy would stop, the men would all have to pile out.
每当发生这样的事情时，车队就会停下来，所有的人都必须蜂拥而出。
They would try to rescue the men who were injured, get them back on the vehicles, start up again.
他们会尽力营救受伤的人，让他们回到车上，然后重新出发。
Every time they would stop, they would come under heavy fire.
每次他们停下来，都会遭到猛烈的炮火攻击。
Until finally, more than half of the men on that convoy were either dead or injured.
直到最后，车队中一半以上的人不是死就是伤。
And it's especially heartbreaking when you read, because several times the convoy swings a block away from where the trapped people are.
当你阅读时，你会感到特别心碎，因为车队好几次都偏离了被困人员所在的地方一个街区。
Yeah.
是的。
And it just shows you how chaotic the situation was on the street.
这只是让你看到街上的情况有多么混乱。
There was this feeling expressed by one of the Air Force combat controllers who was in one of the lead vehicles, his name is Dan Schilling-- he couldn't understand what was going on, and he just believed they were going to keep driving around until they were all dead.
一位坐在领头车辆上的空军战斗控制员表达了这种感觉，他的名字叫丹·席林——他不明白发生了什么事，他只是相信他们会继续开着，直到他们都死了。
You know, at this point in the book, you're sort of midway through the book, one of the things that becomes very clear is that it's almost as if the entire city now has-- I don't want to say turned against, because I feel like maybe that's not the right word--
你知道，在这本书的这一点上，你已经读到了这本书的一半，变得非常清楚的一件事是，几乎整个城市现在都——我不想说反对，因为我觉得这可能不是正确的词——
Is it?
是吗？
Mark Bowden I mean, the Rangers said that they felt like it was kill an American day in Mogadishu.
马克·鲍登（Mark Bowden），我的意思是，流浪者队说他们感觉在摩加迪沙度过了美国人的一天。
There was so much anger and hostility toward these American troops, that it virtually was true.
人们对这些美国军队充满了愤怒和敌意，这几乎是事实。
That they were trapped in a city where everyone in the city, it seemed, was trying to kill them.
他们被困在一座城市里，似乎城里的每个人都想杀死他们。
And this is not just a normal city, this is the most heavily-armed population, probably in the world.
这不仅仅是一座普通的城市，这可能是世界上人口武装最严重的城市。
And so they were under intensive fire from 360 degrees.
因此他们受到了360度的密集火力攻击。
Do you think they had a sense of the enormous hostility that was pent up out there?
你认为他们感受到了那里被压抑的巨大敌意吗？
I think that they probably were aware that there was hostility against them, but they couldn't have imagined the intensity of it.
我认为他们可能意识到存在针对他们的敌意，但他们无法想象敌意的强度。
You have to remember, these are the best-trained soldiers in the world.
你必须记住，这些是世界上训练有素的士兵。
They have the best equipment, they have these helicopters, which are absolute marvels of military technology, to support them.
他们拥有最好的装备，他们有这些绝对是军事技术奇迹的直升机来支持他们。
So they had, I think, a really cocky attitude.
所以我认为他们的态度非常傲慢。
The idea that they would find themselves so outnumbered, and outgunned, and at a disadvantage, in a place like Mogadishu where they viewed the people they were fighting against as just a ragtag bunch of irregulars who wouldn't know how to put together an assault if their life depended on it-- now, though, they found themselves in, really, a predicament from which a lot of them had no reason to expect that they were going to get out alive.
他们认为，在摩加迪沙这样的地方，他们会发现自己寡不敌众，武器装备落后，处于不利地位，在那里，他们认为与他们作战的人只是一群乌合之众的非正规军，如果他们的生命依赖于他们，他们不知道如何组织进攻——但现在，他们发现自己真的陷入了困境，他们中的许多人没有理由期望自己能活着出去。
You know, clearly, from what everybody's been saying about the current situation in Afghanistan, is that the military part of the response is probably going to involve-- almost certain to involve-- special operations forces, some of which may be already on the ground in Afghanistan.
你清楚地知道，从每个人对阿富汗当前局势的看法来看，应对措施的军事部分可能会涉及——几乎肯定会涉及——特种作战部队，其中一些可能已经部署在阿富汗。
Pretty much exactly what you're describing.
几乎正是你所描述的。
Well, in fact involving the same units and in some cases the same men.
嗯，事实上涉及相同的单位，在某些情况下涉及相同的人员。
You know, what I hope the book Blackhawk Down does is sober people up to the reality of combat.
你知道，我希望《黑鹰坠落》这本书能让人们清醒地面对战斗的现实。
And I'm not arguing, and I don't think the book argues, makes a pacifist argument, that we shouldn't be using military force.
我并不是在争论，而且我认为这本书也没有提出和平主义的论点，即我们不应该使用军事力量。
I think we're clearly in a position right now where will the moral obligation is to use military force.
我认为我们现在显然处于这样的境地：道德义务是使用军事力量。
The problem with the Battle of Mogadishu was, that none of the civilian leadership in the United States, from the President to the Congress, had imagined that these raids could turn out with so many people killed and injured.
摩加迪沙之战的问题在于，从总统到国会，美国的文职领导层都没有想到这些袭击会导致这么多人死伤。
So their response, when this happened, was one of horror, that this was a disaster.
因此，当这件事发生时，他们的反应是恐惧，这是一场灾难。
And so immediately, President Clinton called off the military mission in Mogadishu.
因此，克林顿总统立即取消了在摩加迪沙的军事任务。
But from a military perspective, the military objective was to capture Hasan Awale and Omar Salad.
但从军事角度来看，军事目标是抓获哈桑·阿瓦勒和奥马尔·沙拉德。
They were both captured and evacuated from the city and were in custody at the end of the day.
他们都被抓获并撤离该市，并于当天结束时被拘留。
And I think it was galling to the military, particularly to the men who took part in this, to have this mission viewed as a debacle.
我认为，这次任务被视为一次失败，这让军方感到恼火，尤其是参与这次行动的人。
Because they felt that they've been successful, and they felt that after so much sacrifice, their strong desire was to stay and finish the mission, if only to honor the memory of the men who had been killed accomplishing it.
因为他们觉得自己已经成功了，他们觉得在付出了如此多的牺牲之后，他们强烈的愿望是留下来完成任务，哪怕只是为了纪念那些为完成任务而阵亡的人们。
Mark, did the Pentagon, did they study this battle?
马克，五角大楼研究过这场战斗吗？
Did they sort of look at it a year or two later and just sort of say OK, what happened here, what went on, what are the things we can learn from this?
他们是否会在一两年后查看它并说好吧，这里发生了什么，发生了什么，我们可以从中学到什么？
Well, much to my amazement, I don't think that the Army seriously studied this episode at all, this battle at all.
好吧，令我惊讶的是，我认为陆军根本没有认真研究过这一事件，这场战斗。
It just boggles my mind, when you consider that this is probably the only instance of serious, real world fighting that American soldiers have had to do, certainly since the Persian Gulf War.
当你想到这可能是美国士兵在现实世界中必须进行的唯一一次严肃的战斗时，尤其是自波斯湾战争以来，这真是令我难以置信。
And there was nothing like this even in the Persian Gulf War.
即使在海湾战争中也没有这样的事情。
And you would think, just from a standpoint of evaluating the effectiveness of weaponry, of armor, and tactics, that they would want to examine very carefully what happened here.
你可能会认为，仅仅从评估武器、装甲和战术有效性的角度来看，他们会想要非常仔细地检查这里发生的事情。
You know, I found myself in the position when I began working on this book, of being the first person who had attempted to really examine exactly what happened in detail.
你知道，当我开始写这本书时，我发现自己是第一个尝试真正详细检查所发生事情的人。
Mark Bowden.
马克·鲍登.
His account of the Battle of Mogadishu is called Blackhawk Down .
他对摩加迪沙战役的描述被称为《黑鹰坠落》。
Of 160 Americans in the fight, 73 were injured, 18 died.
参加战斗的 160 名美国人中，73 人受伤，18 人死亡。
A conservative estimate of the number of Somalis dead-- 500 to 1,000.
保守估计索马里人死亡人数为 500 至 1,000 人。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
Support for this program comes from PBS, presenting Life 360, a new series that explores life's surprises.
PBS 对该节目提供了支持，推出了探索生活惊喜的新系列《Life 360》。
Friday nights at 9:00, local times may vary.
周五晚上 9:00，当地时间可能有所不同。
[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight by Torey Malatia, who wishes our format included more of--
[资金来源] WBEZ 管理由 Torey Malatia 监督，他希望我们的格式包含更多内容——
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of this American life.
下周我们将带来更多有关美国生活的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。