195: War Stories - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #195 | September 28, 2001 195: War Stories Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 195 集 | 2001 年 9 月 28 日 195：战争故事 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
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如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass WBEZ Chicago and Public Radio International, it's This American Life.
序言 Ira Glass WBEZ 芝加哥和国际公共广播电台，这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
I don't know if you've had this experience.
I don't know if you've had this experience.
We've all heard all the speeches about how we're going to war, how the war is going to take years.
我们都听过所有关于我们将如何发动战争、战争将如何持续数年的演讲。
And it's hard to understand what we're in for.
And it's hard to understand what we're in for.
Is it going to be attacks and counterattacks, and American cities poisoned with chemical weapons?
会不会是攻击和反击，美国城市被化学武器毒害？
Or are we talking about a war that doesn't touch most of our lives very often at all, an occasional commando raid in some faraway place, a flash of headlines, not much more.
或者我们谈论的是一场根本不经常影响我们大部分生活的战争，偶尔在某个遥远的地方进行突击队袭击，一闪而过的头条新闻，仅此而已。
Those are very different scenarios.
Those are very different scenarios.
What does it mean if we get into a war?
What does it mean if we get into a war?
I say if, but of course the President and everybody in a suit in Washington DC is saying there is no if at this point.
我说的是“如果”，但总统和华盛顿特区所有穿西装的人当然都在说，目前没有“如果”。
We're going to war.
我们要打仗了。
What does it mean?
这是什么意思？
Our program today tries to address that question in four acts.
我们今天的节目试图通过四幕来解决这个问题。
We have a story sorting out exactly what we know right now, today, about what the coming war will be like.
我们有一个故事准确地整理了我们现在所知道的关于即将到来的战争将会是什么样子。
Plus stories about the psychology and life during wartime, and how it is different from life during peacetime.
还有关于战时心理和生活的故事，以及战时生活与和平时期的生活有何不同。
And Scott Carrier talks to Americans who are ready to go and die, and send their children to go and die in this coming war.
斯科特·卡里尔与那些准备好赴死、并让他们的孩子在这场即将到来的战争中赴死的美国人进行了交谈。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act one, The Situation in the Field.
第一幕，现场情况。
So it's been kind of confusing, right?
所以这有点令人困惑，对吧？
For a few days after the attacks on September 11th, it seemed like we were just on the verge of bombing and retaliation.
9 月 11 日袭击事件发生后的几天里，我们似乎正处于轰炸和报复的边缘。
And we were issuing ultimatums to the Taliban.
我们向塔利班发出了最后通牒。
We were sending aircraft overseas.
We were sending aircraft overseas.
Now two weeks have gone by, and as our weekend began, nothing had happened.
现在两周过去了，当我们的周末开始时，什么也没有发生。
A couple days ago, there were stories on the front page of the New York Times saying essentially that the US still does not have a plan.
前几天，《纽约时报》头版有报道称，美国目前还没有计划。
Does not have a plan, still is not clear about what might be effective.
没有计划，仍然不清楚什么可能有效。
So to help sort out what exactly we know at this point about the coming war, we are thrilled to welcome Tom Gjelten, an actual NPR correspondent, to our program.
因此，为了帮助弄清楚我们目前对即将到来的战争到底了解多少，我们很高兴欢迎汤姆·吉尔滕（Tom Gjelten），一位真正的 NPR 记者来到我们的节目。
He's been covering the story from the Pentagon for National Public Radio.
他一直在为国家公共广播电台报道五角大楼的故事。
In the past, he's covered wars in Bosnia, Sarajevo, Nicaragua, and El Salvador.
过去，他报道过波斯尼亚、萨拉热窝、尼加拉瓜和萨尔瓦多的战争。
He says we know the troops have been moved overseas.
他说我们知道部队已被调往海外。
We don't know the number, but it's nowhere near what was sent to the Persian Gulf War.
我们不知道具体数字，但它与发送给波斯湾战争的数字相去甚远。
And I think we also know that more specialized units, even commando units, Special Forces, are on the ground in Pakistan now.
我想我们也知道巴基斯坦现在有更多的专业部队，甚至是突击队、特种部队。
And there are probably American ground forces and air crews in Uzbekistan and Tajikistan.
乌兹别克斯坦和塔吉克斯坦可能有美国地面部队和空勤人员。
14,000 reservists have been called to service?
14,000 reservists have been called to service?
So far.
迄今为止。
It's like the stories-- it used to be we did a story every time we bombed Iraq.
就像故事一样——过去我们每次轰炸伊拉克时都会写一个故事。
And now we don't do that anymore, because we're bombing Iraq like two or three times a week.
现在我们不再这样做了，因为我们每周轰炸伊拉克两到三次。
I used to do a story here, just in the last couple weeks, every time we had a big mobilization.
过去几周，每次我们进行大型动员时，我都会在这里写一个故事。
Now we're getting mobilizations every day, I don't even bother to keep tally anymore.
现在我们每天都在动员，我什至不再费心去统计了。
We're above 14,000 now.
我们现在已经超过 14,000 人了。
There were 600 or so yesterday, I didn't even pay any attention to it.
昨天有600左右，我根本没注意。
And based on what we know so far, what's our best guess as to what kind of war we're going to be facing over the next few months and years?
根据我们迄今为止所了解的情况，我们对未来几个月和几年将面临什么样的战争的最佳猜测是什么？
I think one of the things about this is that it's going to be a drama of several acts.
我认为这件事的一个原因是这将是一部由多幕组成的戏剧。
It's going to go on, and each act is going to be completely different from the one that preceded it.
它会继续下去，每一幕都将与之前的完全不同。
We are now in the first act.
We are now in the first act.
And the first act is about chasing the bad guys.
And the first act is about chasing the bad guys.
It's about going after Osama bin Laden, and it's going to be dramatic, because there are going to be these Special Forces, these American commandos, and there's going to be British commandos.
这是关于追捕奥萨马·本·拉登，这将是戏剧性的，因为将会有这些特种部队，这些美国突击队，也会有英国突击队。
And they're going to be going through the mountains and they're going to be going into caves and trying to find the terrorists hiding in caves.
他们将穿越山脉，进入洞穴并试图找到藏在洞穴中的恐怖分子。
So that's going to be the first round.
这将是第一轮。
But then who knows what the result of that is going to be?
但谁知道这样做的结果会是什么？
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said the other day something-- he said a couple things that were really remarkable.
国防部长唐纳德·拉姆斯菲尔德（Donald Rumsfeld）前几天说了一些话——他说了几句话，真的很了不起。
He said that this is like playing a game of billiards, where you hit the ball, and then you sort of step back and watch what it careens off.
他说，这就像打台球游戏，你击球，然后你退后一步，观察球倾斜的方向。
And you sort of hope that in the end, the right thing happens.
你有点希望最终会发生正确的事情。
I mean, we're going into this war really without any idea of what the next round is going to be, and how what we do in this round is going to affect what happens in the next round.
我的意思是，我们在进入这场战争时实际上并不知道下一轮会发生什么，也不知道我们在这一轮中所做的事情将如何影响下一轮发生的事情。
And when Pentagon officials talk about these commando units, is there a fear that these kind of limited actions will explode into a broader war?
当五角大楼官员谈论这些突击队时，是否担心这些有限的行动会爆发为更广泛的战争？
How much do they talk about that?
他们对此谈了多少？
How much of a possibility is that?
How much of a possibility is that?
The people who think about this in strategic terms-- you know in the Pentagon, there are people who have different sort of thinking responsibilities-- and the people who do think about this in strategic terms are very much worried about that, because it's so hard to predict.
从战略角度思考这个问题的人——你知道，在五角大楼，有不同的思考责任的人——而从战略角度思考这个问题的人对此非常担心，因为它很难预测。
And we in the United States have drawn this clear distinction between terrorism and Islam.
我们美国人已经对恐怖主义和伊斯兰教做出了明确的区分。
But the truth of it is that I think there are a lot of people in the United States who are worried that any military action is going to be interpreted by people in the Muslim world as an attack on Islam.
但事实是，我认为美国有很多人担心任何军事行动都会被穆斯林世界的人们解读为对伊斯兰教的攻击。
And I have to say, there are those who worry about a World War III type scenario, where this just gets out of hand and the United States enrages-- there are 1 billion Muslims in the world.
我不得不说，有些人担心会出现第三次世界大战那样的情景，一旦局势失控，美国就会愤怒——世界上有 10 亿穆斯林。
And there are people that worry that this will get out of hand, and it will become this sort of global conflagration.
有人担心这会失控，并会演变成全球性的大火。
And how likely do you view the possibility that it will become a war between the West and Islam as somebody who's watching this closely?
作为密切关注此事的人，您认为这有可能成为西方和伊斯兰教之间的战争吗？
I feel a lot better about that, Ira, right now than I did a week ago.
艾拉，我现在比一周前感觉好多了。
And I feel confident that it's not going to become that in the short run.
我相信短期内不会变成这样。
Because of all the alliances the US is being so careful to make with the countries around Afghanistan?
Because of all the alliances the US is being so careful to make with the countries around Afghanistan?
Yes, because the United States, the people that are directing this campaign are aware of that danger.
是的，因为美国，指导这场运动的人意识到了这种危险。
And they are proceeding very carefully.
他们正在非常谨慎地进行。
Let's just hope that that focus stays in place.
我们只希望这一焦点能够保持不变。
The impression from afar, just from those of us just reading the papers and hearing stories on radio and TV, is that there's a lot of really tough rhetoric at the beginning, and since then there's been a very sober and very rational look at the downside to the various actions.
从远处看，就我们这些只是读报纸、听广播和电视故事的人来说，一开始有很多非常强硬的言辞，从那以后，人们对各种行动的负面影响非常清醒和非常理性的看待。
And it actually feels like we're proceeding in a very careful way.
实际上感觉我们正在以非常谨慎的方式进行。
It's reassuring.
令人放心。
But I have to tell Ira, there's a lot a debate about this.
但我必须告诉艾拉，对此有很多争论。
Really?
真的吗？
Tom Gjelten The story's not over yet.
Tom Gjelten 故事还没有结束。
There are people in the government who are arguing that the problem with terrorism is not going to be solved unless the states that are in some way sponsoring it are basically overthrown.
政府中有人认为，除非基本上推翻以某种方式支持恐怖主义的国家，否则恐怖主义问题不会得到解决。
I mean, there are people who are arguing that this war should be directed against Iraq.
我的意思是，有人认为这场战争应该针对伊拉克。
There are people who say Syria should become a target.
有人说叙利亚应该成为攻击目标。
That debate is not yet resolved.
这场争论尚未解决。
I mean, we're still in round one of this thing, and in round one, it's going to be limited.
我的意思是，我们仍然处于这件事的第一轮，并且在第一轮中，它将受到限制。
But people say that this is going to go on for years, and who knows what round two or round three or round four will turn into.
但人们说这种情况会持续很多年，谁知道第二轮、第三轮或第四轮会变成什么样。
Tom Gjelten covers the Defense Department for NPR's daily news programs.
Tom Gjelten 为 NPR 的每日新闻节目报道国防部。
Act two, Letters to Home.
第二幕，《家书》。
So if we're going to war, what is it going to be like?
So if we're going to war, what is it going to be like?
Let us remember what it was like.
让我们记住那是什么样的。
A guy named Andrew Carroll recently started something called the Legacy Project, collecting letters America's wrote home during wartime.
一个名叫安德鲁·卡罗尔的人最近启动了一个名为“遗产项目”的项目，收集战时美国人写回家的信件。
He was sent over 50,000 letters and collected them into a book.
他收到了 50,000 多封信件，并将它们收集成书。
He says from the Civil War through the World Wars up through Korea and Vietnam, some things are the same.
他说，从内战到世界大战，再到朝鲜战争和越南战争，有些事情是一样的。
In every war, in the beginning you have this sense of urgency, almost the impassioned desire to strike back, to fight, to go overseas.
In every war, in the beginning you have this sense of urgency, almost the impassioned desire to strike back, to fight, to go overseas.
And then gradually, as the young people themselves see what war is truly like, you see an ebbing away of that enthusiasm.
然后，当年轻人自己看到战争的真实面貌时，你会发现这种热情逐渐消退。
And at the end, regardless of the war, even in the so-called noble wars, whether it's the Civil War or World War II, you see a great sense of disgust about what war is, an exhaustion, a fatigue, just a bitterness.
最后，无论战争如何，即使是所谓的崇高战争，无论是内战还是第二次世界大战，你都会看到对战争是什么的极大厌恶感，一种疲惫，一种疲倦，一种苦涩。
Let me ask you just to illustrate this idea of how the letters change over time.
Let me ask you just to illustrate this idea of how the letters change over time.
Can I ask you to read a letter or two that are in your collection in the book, a letter from a man named Sydney Diamond, a lieutenant.
我可以请你读一下你在书中收藏的一两封信吗？这是一封来自一位名叫西德尼·戴蒙德（Sydney Diamond）的中尉的信。
Yeah.
是的。
I love Sydney Diamond and his fiancee Estelle Spiro.
I love Sydney Diamond and his fiancee Estelle Spiro.
And Sydney would say, he'd say later after he met Estelle that-- I think they were 14 or 16 at the time-- that the second time he walked her home, he knew he'd marry her.
西德尼会说，在他遇见埃斯特尔之后，他会说——我想他们当时只有 14 或 16 岁——当他第二次送她回家时，他知道他会娶她。
And they're just a wonderful couple.
他们是一对很棒的夫妻。
And Sydney was gung ho about going off to war.
悉尼热衷于参战。
He was a very smart young man, and he volunteered for what would be a very dangerous division.
他是一个非常聪明的年轻人，他自愿加入了一个非常危险的部门。
And he was a very funny guy, and he wrote these very humorous letters to Estelle in the beginning of the war, and he knew that she was upset with him for going off to fight.
他是一个非常有趣的人，他在战争开始时给埃斯特尔写了这些非常幽默的信，他知道她对他去打仗感到不安。
And let's start with a letter that he writes on August 17th.
And let's start with a letter that he writes on August 17th.
This is still when he's lively and funny and enthusiastic about things.
This is still when he's lively and funny and enthusiastic about things.
He writes it in the form of a sort of a mock war memo.
He writes it in the form of a sort of a mock war memo.
Exactly.
确切地。
It's a tongue in cheek memo.
这是一份半开玩笑的备忘录。
And so it's subject, Ms. Estelle Spiro, to the world.
And so it's subject, Ms. Estelle Spiro, to the world.
Number one, on several occasions there's been questions posed as the rank and authority in the Diamond combat team.
第一，钻石战斗队的级别和权威曾多次受到质疑。
The Diamond combat team is similarly like him and her?
The Diamond combat team is similarly like him and her?
Yeah, they're a couple.
是的，他们是情侣。
Ira Glass Him and her?
艾拉·格拉斯 他和她？
Them as a couple?
他们是情侣吗？
Yeah, the two of them together.
是啊，两个人在一起了。
Also some people have asked about who is most beautiful.
Also some people have asked about who is most beautiful.
The following paragraphs supersede any previous bulletins on these matters.
The following paragraphs supersede any previous bulletins on these matters.
Number two, commander of the organization will be Miss Estelle, who upon assuming command, will be responsible for the maintenance of discipline amongst her subordinates, in particular Lieutenant Diamond.
第二号，该组织的指挥官将是埃斯特尔小姐，她上任后将负责维持下属的纪律，特别是戴蒙德中尉。
Ms. Estelle will be charged with the morale and well being of this officer.
Ms. Estelle will be charged with the morale and well being of this officer.
Number three, careful studies the photograph to indicate that the CO is by far the most proportioned, most attractive of all models heretofore presented.
第三，仔细研究照片会发现，CO 是迄今为止所展示的所有模型中比例最大、最具吸引力的。
The mark IAI reveals the following assets: A, irresistible lips; B, clear vision; C, black, long eyelashes; D, long, flowing hair, slightly kinky; E, eyebrows, parenthetically note.
The mark IAI reveals the following assets: A, irresistible lips; B、视野清晰； C、黑色、长睫毛； D、长发、飘逸、略带卷曲； E，眉毛，括号内注明。
One must be careful of these.
这些都必须要小心。
When they are raised, duck for cover; F, nose, very adaptable for biting, also very pretty; G, ears, be careful of these.
当它们升起时，躲开寻找掩护； F, nose, very adaptable for biting, also very pretty; G，耳朵，小心这些。
They're usually hidden and well camouflaged.
它们通常是隐藏的并且伪装得很好。
If you get too close, you'll be caught by booby trap M-2 earring.
If you get too close, you'll be caught by booby trap M-2 earring.
Four, we recommend that this equipment be requisitioned for Lieutenant Diamond's organization, and they get married at the earliest possible moment.
第四，我们建议戴蒙德中尉的组织征用这套装备，他们尽早结婚。
Despite Lieutenant Diamond's demonstrated lack of skill in handling this equipment, we feel he is sufficiently interested to study and learn this instrument, its nomenclature, its functions, its use, its quirks and needs.
尽管戴蒙德中尉表现出缺乏操作该设备的技能，但我们认为他有足够的兴趣研究和学习该仪器、它的术语、它的功能、它的使用、它的怪癖和需求。
He will be responsible for the care of this instrument.
He will be responsible for the care of this instrument.
General E.
E将军
Motors.
电机。
So this just to give you a sense of his style, his whimsy and--.
So this just to give you a sense of his style, his whimsy and--.
He loves that girl, man.
他爱那个女孩，伙计。
Andrew Carroll He loves her.
安德鲁·卡罗尔 他爱她。
And there are many other letters like this that are very funny in nature.
And there are many other letters like this that are very funny in nature.
But as the War goes on-- he's over in the Pacific-- you begin to see the change.
But as the War goes on-- he's over in the Pacific-- you begin to see the change.
And a later letter he writes just a few months later, this is Christmas day, 1944.
And a later letter he writes just a few months later, this is Christmas day, 1944.
Now this is just four months after the letter where he describes the Diamond combat team.
现在距离他描述钻石战斗队的信函仅过去了四个月。
Exactly.
确切地。
Ira Glass And he's been in combat since?
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：从那以后他就一直在战斗？
Correct.
正确的。
And he's seen when they've gone to some of the islands in the Pacific, they've seen the atrocities committed by the Japanese onto the natives.
And he's seen when they've gone to some of the islands in the Pacific, they've seen the atrocities committed by the Japanese onto the natives.
And this is a letter he writes on Christmas day, and his spirits really couldn't be lower.
And this is a letter he writes on Christmas day, and his spirits really couldn't be lower.
Darling, it is difficult at present to be the cold, the practical.
Darling, it is difficult at present to be the cold, the practical.
Even more it is hard to be humorous or laugh, to joke.
Even more it is hard to be humorous or laugh, to joke.
I cannot say where we are, what we are doing, what we will do.
I cannot say where we are, what we are doing, what we will do.
There's been so much between us unsaid and undone, so much of our lives missed.
我们之间有太多未说出口和未做的事情，我们错过了很多人生。
I would like to fill the air with plans, dreams, hopes, but Estelle, all there is is a choking in the chest.
我想让空气中充满计划、梦想、希望，但埃斯特尔，胸口却充满了窒息。
Every once in a while, a guy gets himself overcome by despair.
Every once in a while, a guy gets himself overcome by despair.
Despondency overwhelms him.
沮丧压倒了他。
it is so long, so very long.
它太长了，太长了。
I love you Darling.
我爱你亲爱的。
Whatever happens, be happy.
无论发生什么，都要快乐。
That's my only request.
这是我唯一的要求。
Get everything we would have liked, fill your life, or only keep my little niche open, so if I ever get home, I'll know there's one place waiting for me, my corner of the world.
得到我们想要的一切，充实你的生活，或者只保留我的小利基开放，所以如果我回到家，我会知道有一个地方在等着我，我的世界一角。
Let it be a small alcove in your heart.
让它成为你心中的一个小凹室。
Put a comfortable chair there and always keep a warm fire glowing, because if I come home in any recognizable form, I'll head directly for that chair.
在那里放一把舒适的椅子，并始终保持温暖的火光，因为如果我以任何可识别的形式回家，我会直接走向那张椅子。
That's where I belong.
那就是我所属的地方。
That's my home with you.
那就是我和你的家。
Your Sid.
你的席德。
Andrew Carroll, who assembled the book War Letters.
安德鲁·卡罗尔（Andrew Carroll）撰写了《战争信件》一书。
Just four months after Sid Diamond wrote that letter, his fiancee Estelle Spiro got word that he'd been shot and killed in Manila.
席德·戴蒙德 (Sid Diamond) 写下这封信后仅四个月，他的未婚妻埃斯特尔·斯皮罗 (Estelle Spiro) 就得知他在马尼拉被枪杀。
The last time she'd seen him was nearly two years before that.
The last time she'd seen him was nearly two years before that.
Estelle Spiro is now Estelle Lynch, married with two children and two grandchildren, living in Queens, New York.
Estelle Spiro is now Estelle Lynch, married with two children and two grandchildren, living in Queens, New York.
We caught her up, and she was gracious enough to talk with us as a kind of memorial to Sid.
我们抓住了她，她很客气地与我们交谈，作为对席德的一种纪念。
That Sid was proud to sign up to fight, she said, so that war was a ridiculous way for people to try to solve disputes.
That Sid was proud to sign up to fight, she said, so that war was a ridiculous way for people to try to solve disputes.
She has a lot of letters from him.
她有很多他的来信。
I have 520 odd from World War II, and about another 100 from three years before that.
我有 520 多件来自二战的资料，还有大约 100 件来自三年前的资料。
Do you read these letters very often at all?
你经常读这些信吗？
No, actually I didn't.
不，实际上我没有。
I was afraid to read them until I got interested in the Legacy Project.
在我对遗留项目产生兴趣之前，我一直不敢阅读它们。
And then I read all of them, all of them.
然后我读了所有的书，所有的书。
Every night I'd read a batch.
每天晚上我都会读一批。
And what was that like?
那是什么样的？
Estelle Lynch Terrible.
艾斯特尔·林奇 太糟糕了。
I would imagine that reading these letters must take the half century since they passed and just make it seem like nothing.
I would imagine that reading these letters must take the half century since they passed and just make it seem like nothing.
It must seem like it happened yesterday.
看起来一定像是昨天发生的事情。
That's exactly right.
完全正确。
It's as though it just happened.
就好像这件事刚刚发生过一样。
Were you seeing things in them now reading them that you don't think that you saw at the time?
Were you seeing things in them now reading them that you don't think that you saw at the time?
Well, the yearning for me is just overwhelming.
好吧，对我的渴望实在是太强烈了。
I guess I have seen a couple of places where he expresses regret at hurting me, which of course he felt all along.
我想我见过几个地方他对伤害我表示遗憾，当然他一直都有这种感觉。
But I see it very vividly now.
但我现在看得非常清楚。
Yes.
是的。
And I see expressions like, if I ever come back.
我看到这样的表情：“如果我能回来的话。”
Although at the beginning at least, in the first year or so, he always said, I'm coming back, I'm coming back.
虽然至少在开始的时候，第一年左右，他总是说，我回来了，我回来了。
And then later, I see, if I ever get back.
然后，我想，如果我能回来的话。
You didn't want him to enlist, and he did enlist.
你不想让他参军，他却参军了。
How do you feel about that?
你对此有何感想？
What do you think about that when you read these letters?
当你读到这些信时，你有何感想？
Well, I was very much against it when he went.
嗯，他去的时候我非常反对。
I still wish he hadn't, and it's not because I didn't believe in what we like to call The Good War.
我仍然希望他没有这样做，这并不是因为我不相信我们所说的“正义之战”。
But I thought that he should have waited until he was drafted.
但我认为他应该等到他被征召入伍。
He was finishing his third year as an engineering student, and I felt he would have had many more options open to him.
他即将完成工程系学生的第三年学业，我觉得他会有更多的选择。
He would not have ended up fighting with the infantry, which he did as a member of the chemical warfare service.
作为化学战部队的一员，他不会最终与步兵一起战斗。
And I think he'd have had a much better chance of surviving, because I can see from his friends and from my friends, that they went about a year later than he did.
我认为他有更好的生存机会，因为我可以从他的朋友和我的朋友那里看到，他们比他晚了大约一年。
So I can appreciate the fact that he was acting according to principle, and his ideals, and felt it was important to go.
所以我很欣赏他按照原则和理想行事，并且觉得离开很重要。
But I still wish he hadn't.
但我还是希望他没有。
Do you feel like he was able to hold onto his idealism?
你觉得他还能坚持自己的理想主义吗？
At maybe two or three points, he says no more crusades.
也许有两三个点，他说不再有十字军东征。
When he says no more crusades, he means no more crusades for him?
当他说不再有十字军东征时，他的意思是不再有十字军东征了？
No more crusades for him.
他不再需要十字军东征。
And then in some other-- I think one of the letters that's in the book, I'm not sure-- he says all you've got in me is a person of blah, blah, blah, blah, and ideals.
然后在其他一些信中——我想是书中的一封信，我不确定——他说我身上的一切都是废话、废话、废话、废话和理想。
And when this is over, you won't have any ideals to contend with.
当这一切结束后，你将不再有任何理想可以应对。
As the war went on, he felt less and less idealistic about it, and less and less inclined to be part of a crusade.
随着战争的继续，他对战争的理想主义感越来越低，也越来越不愿意参与十字军东征。
What do you think about that?
你对此有何看法？
Well, again, I have mixed feelings, because I was happy in some degree to feel that he was agreeing that perhaps he shouldn't have gone when he did.
好吧，我的心情又很复杂，因为我在某种程度上很高兴感觉到他同意也许他不应该在他离开时离开。
On the other hand, I would not have wanted him to suffer by giving up his ideals.
另一方面，我也不希望他因放弃理想而受苦。
There he was, fighting.
他在那里，正在战斗。
I think it was better for him to feel that he was fighting for something worthwhile.
我认为让他感到自己正在为有价值的事情而奋斗会更好。
I can't say more than that.
我不能说更多了。
Yeah.
是的。
When you look at the way people are reacting to the idea of going to war again, do you feel like people are embracing it with an eagerness that a generation that lived through a massive war can't, or wouldn't?
当你观察人们对再次开战的想法的反应时，你是否觉得人们正在以一种经历过大规模战争的一代人无法或不愿意的热情接受它？
As a matter of fact, I guess a day or two after this happened, we went to a neighborhood restaurant for dinner.
事实上，我猜这件事发生一两天后，我们就去了附近的一家餐馆吃晚饭。
We were the only people there.
我们是那里唯一的人。
The waiter was a very young chap, 21 I guess, Romanian, who had been in this country since he was 11 or 12 I think.
服务员是个非常年轻的小伙子，我猜是 21 岁，罗马尼亚人，我想他从 11 岁或 12 岁起就来到了这个国家。
And he said, I love this country.
他说，我爱这个国家。
I am ready to go to war.
我已经准备好参战了。
And I said, young man, don't be so ready to go to war.
我说，年轻人，别那么准备好去打仗。
If they need you, they'll come and get you.
如果他们需要你，他们会来找你。
You don't have to put yourself out there.
你不必把自己摆在那里。
And of course I was thinking of Sid.
当然，我想到的是席德。
A.
A.
E.
E.
Housman, in one of his poems, said, too full already is the grave of fellows who were good and brave, and died because they were.
豪斯曼在他的一首诗中说，善良而勇敢的人们的坟墓已经太满了，他们也因此而死去。
Estelle Lynch.
埃斯特尔·林奇。
When we were done with our interview, I asked her is she'd like to read one of Sid's letters.
当我们结束采访时，我问她是否想读希德的一封信。
The question caught her by surprise.
这个问题让她大吃一惊。
She hadn't chose one in advance, so she just opened to a letter at random.
她没有提前选好，只是随意打开一封信。
It was writing in New Caledonia in 1943, the month Sid left the US.
本书写于 1943 年的新喀里多尼亚，同月希德离开美国。
I'm located in a large island in the Southwest Pacific.
我位于西南太平洋的一个大岛上。
The language spoken on the island is French.
岛上使用的语言是法语。
Don't think I haven't been brushing up on the little French I once knew.
别以为我没有温习我曾经懂得的一点法语。
An incident which occurred in town.
镇上发生的一件事。
I struck up a conversation with one of the girl's taking care of a lemonade stand.
我和一位负责柠檬水摊的女孩攀谈起来。
It was all in French, mind you.
请注意，全部都是法语。
I was doing quite well too.
我也做得很好。
She caught sight of your ring, and immediately asked me if I was married.
她看到了你的戒指，立即问我是否结婚了。
I told her I was engaged, and promptly produced your picture.
我告诉她我订婚了，并立即拿出了你的照片。
Very pretty, she exclaimed.
非常漂亮，她惊叹道。
How come all American boys are married or engaged to pretty girls?
为什么所有美国男孩都娶了漂亮女孩或订婚了？
All I could do was shrug my shoulders.
我所能做的就是耸耸肩。
Then I had some ice cream, very watery but good.
然后我吃了一些冰淇淋，很淡但是很好吃。
I feel quite elated at the opportunity to use some French.
我很高兴有机会使用一些法语。
The difficulty is the few opportunities one has for visiting.
困难在于参观的机会很少。
My striker, or orderly, knows you.
我的前锋，或者勤务兵，认识你。
Or should I say your picture by now.
或者我现在应该说你的照片。
As soon as I pulled it out, he remarked, you want it here facing you when you write letters?
我一把它拿出来，他就说，你写信的时候想让它面向你吗？
And that's where you are, a bit in the shadows but still present.
这就是你所在的地方，有点在阴影中，但仍然存在。
Darling, remember always, I love you.
亲爱的，永远记住，我爱你。
Your Sid.
你的席德。
Estelle Lynch.
埃斯特尔·林奇。
[MUSIC - "REMEMBER PEARL HARBOR" BY SAMMY KAYE AND HIS ORCHESTRA WITH THE GLEE CLUB]
[音乐 - Sammy KAYE 和他的管弦乐团与欢乐合唱团的《记住珍珠港》]
Act Three, What Peacetime Forgets About Wartime.
第三幕，和平时期忘记战时的事情。
At a weekly paper here in Chicago a few years back, The Chicago Reader , a writer named Lee Sandlin wrote a story about what it is that makes wartime different.
几年前，在芝加哥的一份周报《芝加哥读者》上，一位名叫李·桑德林的作家写了一篇关于战时为何不同的故事。
About the particular psychology of being at war.
关于战争中的特殊心理。
It was a massive historical article, exhaustively researched.
这是一篇篇幅巨大的历史文章，经过详尽的研究。
He was interested partly in World War II and why it had been forgotten, and in what it was that had been forgotten.
他对第二次世界大战以及为什么它被遗忘以及被遗忘的是什么感兴趣。
Here's an excerpt.
这是摘录。
Lee Sandlin's in China, so it was read for us by Matt Malloy.
李·桑德林在中国，所以由马特·马洛伊为我们朗读。
Back when the forest still stretched in an unbroken expanse from Scandinavia to the Urals, the Vikings who inhabited its northernmost reaches wrote down their own stories about war.
当森林仍然从斯堪的纳维亚半岛一直延伸到乌拉尔山脉时，居住在森林最北端的维京人就写下了他们自己的战争故事。
Their legends may have been garish fantasies, cursed rings and enchanted gold and dragons slayers.
他们的传说可能是花哨的幻想、被诅咒的戒指、迷人的黄金和屠龙者。
But when they wrote about battle, they were unsparingly exact.
但当他们描写战争时，却毫不留情地准确。
Their sagas still offer the subtlest and most rigorous accounts of the unique psychology of combat.
他们的传奇故事仍然对独特的战斗心理提供了最微妙和最严格的描述。
They knew that the experience of being on a battlefield is fundamentally different from everything else in life.
他们知道，在战场上的经历与生活中的其他一切有着根本的不同。
It simply can't be described with ordinary words, so they devised a specialized vocabulary to handle it.
它根本无法用普通词语来描述，因此他们设计了专门的词汇来处理它。
Some of their terms will do perfectly well for a World War fought 1,000 years later.
其中一些术语非常适合 1000 年后的世界大战。
The Vikings knew, for instance, that prolonged exposure to combat can goad some men into a state of uncontrolled psychic fury.
例如，维京人知道，长时间暴露在战斗中可能会让一些人陷入无法控制的精神愤怒状态。
They might be the most placid men in the world in peacetime, but on the battlefield, they begin to act with the most inexplicable and gratuitous cruelty.
他们在和平时期可能是世界上最平静的人，但在战场上，他们开始表现出最莫名其妙、最无端的残忍。
They become convinced that they're invincible, above all rules and restraints, literally transformed into superman and werewolves.
他们坚信自己是无敌的，超越了所有的规则和限制，简直变成了超人和狼人。
The Vikings called such men berserkers.
维京人称这些人为狂战士。
World War II was filled with instances of ordinary soldiers giving into berserker behavior.
第二次世界大战中充斥着普通士兵采取狂暴行为的例子。
In battle after battle, soldiers on all sides are observed killing wantonly and indiscriminately, defying all orders to stop, in a kind of collective blood rage.
在一次又一次的战斗中，各方士兵不顾一切停止命令，肆意杀戮，表现出一种集体的血腥愤怒。
They were found in every army, even among those that emphasize discipline and humane conduct.
他们存在于每支军队中，甚至是那些强调纪律和人道行为的军队中。
American Marines in the Pacific became notorious for their berserker mentality, particularly their profound lack of interest in taking prisoners.
太平洋上的美国海军陆战队因其狂暴的心态而臭名昭著，尤其是他们对俘虏毫无兴趣。
In his memoir, a Marine named Eugene Sledge describes once seeing another Marine in a classic berserker state urinating into the open mouth of a dead Japanese soldier.
一位名叫尤金·斯莱奇（Eugene Sledge）的海军陆战队员在他的回忆录中描述，有一次看到另一名海军陆战队员处于典型的狂暴状态，向一名死去的日本士兵张开的嘴里撒尿。
Another viking term was fey.
另一个维京术语是 fey。
People now understand it to mean effeminate.
现在人们将其理解为女性化的意思。
Previously it meant odd, and before that, uncanny, fairy like.
以前它的意思是奇怪的，而在此之前，它的意思是不可思议的、仙女般的。
That was back when Fairyland was the most sinister place people could imagine.
那时的仙境是人们能想象到的最险恶的地方。
The old Norse word meant doomed.
古挪威语这个词的意思是注定的。
It was used to refer to an eerie mood that would come over people in battle, a kind of transcendent despair.
它用来指在战斗中人们会出现的一种怪异的情绪，一种超然的绝望。
The state was described vividly by an American reporter, Tom Lee, in the midst of the desperate Battle of Peleliu in the South Pacific.
美国记者汤姆·李（Tom Lee）生动地描述了南太平洋令人绝望的贝里琉岛战役中的情况。
He felt something inside of himself, some instinctive psychic urge to keep himself alive, finally collapse at the site of one more dead soldier in the ruins of a tropical jungle.
他感觉到自己内心有某种东西，某种本能的、想要让自己活下去的心灵冲动，最后在热带丛林废墟中又一名死去的士兵身上倒下了。
Lee wrote, he seemed so quiet and empty, and passed all the small things a man could love or hate.
李写道，他显得如此安静和空虚，并传递了一个人可能爱或恨的所有小事。
I suddenly knew I no longer had to defend my beating heart against the stillness of death.
我突然意识到我不再需要在死亡的寂静中捍卫我跳动的心脏。
There was no defense.
没有任何防御。
There was no defense, that's fey.
没有任何防守，这太糟糕了。
People go through battle willing the bullet to miss, the shelling to stop, the heart to go on beating.
人们经历过战斗，愿意子弹打偏，炮击停止，心脏继续跳动。
And then they feel something in their soul surrender, and they give into everything they've been most afraid of.
然后他们感到灵魂中有些东西投降了，他们屈服于他们最害怕的一切。
It's like a glimpse of eternity.
这就像永恒的一瞥。
Whether the battle is lost or won, it will never end.
无论这场战斗是输是赢，都不会结束。
It has wholly taken over the soul.
它已经完全占据了灵魂。
Sometimes men say afterward that the most terrifying moment of any battle is seeing a fey look on the faces of the soldiers standing next to them.
有时人们事后会说，任何战斗中最可怕的时刻就是看到站在他们旁边的士兵脸上露出古怪的表情。
Feyness might also explain the deepest mystery of the war, why the surrender everybody expected never came.
费内斯或许还能解释这场战争最深奥的谜团，即为什么每个人都期望的投降从未到来。
The Germans and Japanese refused to surrender, even though they knew the war was lost.
德国人和日本人拒绝投降，尽管他们知道战争已经失败。
It's possible to quibble about the exact point at which the war was decided, Midway, Stalingrad, Filles, Okinawa.
人们可能对战争决定的确切地点存在争议：中途岛、斯大林格勒、菲尔斯、冲绳。
But by some unmistakable point, the autumn of 1942 at the latest, they should have understood that they'd been wrong, and that their prospects for long term victory were zeroing out.
但到了某个明确无误的时刻，最迟在 1942 年秋天，他们应该明白自己错了，他们的长期胜利前景已经渺茫。
They still had the economic and military strength to sustain their armies in the field indefinitely.
他们仍然拥有经济和军事实力来无限期地维持他们的军队在战场上。
But by any rational calculation of the odds, they should have begun hinting through backwater diplomatic channels that they were willing to negotiate a ceasefire.
但根据任何对可能性的理性计算，他们应该已经开始通过死水外交渠道暗示他们愿意通过谈判达成停火。
Neither Germany nor Japan ever did so.
德国和日本都没有这样做过。
Not until the last days of the war did either government even consider a negotiated settlement, not until they had absolutely nothing left to negotiate with.
直到战争的最后几天，两国政府才考虑通过谈判解决问题，直到他们完全没有什么可谈判的余地。
But then that's the point.
但这就是重点。
A rational calculation of the odds is a calculation by the logic of peace.
理性的赔率计算，是和平逻辑的计算。
War has a different logic.
战争有不同的逻辑。
A kind of vast feyness can infect a military bureaucracy when it's losing a war, a collective slippage at the sense of objective truth in the face of approaching disaster.
当军事官僚正在输掉一场战争时，一种巨大的怪异情绪可能会影响到它，在面对即将到来的灾难时，人们会集体丧失对客观事实的认识。
In the later years of World War II, the bureaucracies of the Axis behind the lines gradually retreated into a dreamy paper war, where they were on the brink of a triumphant reversal of fortune.
二战后期，轴心国幕后官僚逐渐退入一场梦幻般的纸上战争，他们正处于命运逆转的边缘。
Not everybody succumbed to these fantasies.
并不是每个人都会屈服于这些幻想。
But those who understood how hopeless the situation really was also knew that defeat would mean accountability.
但那些了解情况究竟有多么绝望的人也知道，失败意味着责任。
And they had a reasonably good idea of what would happen to them if they were ever forced to answer for what they'd done.
他们非常清楚，如果他们被迫为自己的所作所为负责，他们会发生什么。
This is the dreadful logic that comes to control a lot of wars.
这就是控制许多战争的可怕逻辑。
The American Civil War is another example.
美国内战是另一个例子。
The losers prolong their agony as much as possible, because they're convinced the alternative is worse.
失败者尽可能延长他们的痛苦，因为他们相信替代方案更糟糕。
Meanwhile, the winners, who might earlier have accepted a compromised peace, become so maddened by the refusal of their enemies to stop fighting that they see no reason to settle for anything less than absolute victory.
与此同时，胜利者原本可能会接受妥协的和平，但他们却因敌人拒绝停止战斗而变得如此疯狂，以至于他们认为除了绝对胜利之外没有理由满足于任何事情。
In this sense, the later course of World War II was typical.
从这个意义上说，二战后期的进程具有典型性。
It kept on escalating, no matter what the strategic situation was, and it grew progressively more violent and uncontrollable long after the outcome was a foregone conclusion.
无论战略形势如何，它都会不断升级，而且在结果已成定局很久之后，它就会变得越来越暴力和无法控制。
The difference was that no other war had ever had such deep reserves of violence to draw upon.
不同之处在于，没有任何一场战争拥有如此深厚的暴力储备可供利用。
The Vikings would have understood all this.
维京人会理解这一切。
They didn't have a word for the prolongation of war long past any rational goal.
他们没有表示战争的延长远远超出了任何理性目标。
They just knew that's what always happened.
他们只知道这就是经常发生的事情。
It's the subject of their longest and greatest saga, the Brennu-Njals Saga, or the Saga of Njal Burned Alive.
这是他们最长、最伟大的传奇故事《布伦努-尼亚尔斯传奇》或《尼亚尔活烧传奇》的主题。
The saga describes a trivial feud in back country Iceland that keeps escalating for reasons nobody can understand or resolve, until it engulfs the whole of Northern Europe.
这个传奇故事描述了冰岛边远地区的一场微不足道的争斗，由于无人能理解或解决的原因，这场争斗不断升级，直到席卷整个北欧。
Provocation after fresh provocation, peace conference after failed peace conference, It has its own momentum like a hurricane of carnage.
一次又一次的挑衅，一次又一次失败的和平会议，它有自己的势头，就像一场屠杀的飓风。
For the Vikings, this was the essence of war.
对于维京人来说，这就是战争的本质。
It's a mystery that comes out of nowhere and grows for reasons nobody can control, until it shakes the whole world apart.
这是一个不知从何而来的谜团，并因无人能控制的原因而增长，直到它震动了整个世界。
This was the course of World War II from the Fall of 1944 on.
这就是 1944 年秋天以来第二次世界大战的进程。
After the Allies at last acknowledged that, despite the decisive victories of the previous summer, the Axis was never going to surrender.
盟军最终承认，尽管去年夏天取得了决定性的胜利，但轴心国永远不会投降。
That was when the Allies changed their strategy.
就在那时，盟军改变了策略。
They set out to make an Axis surrender irrelevant.
他们着手让轴心国投降变得无关紧要。
From that winter into the next spring, the civilians of Germany and Japan were helpless before a new Allied campaign of systematic aerial bombardment.
从那年冬天到第二年春天，德国和日本的平民在盟军新一轮系统性的空中轰炸面前束手无策。
The air forces and air defense systems of the Axis were in ruins by then.
那时轴心国的空军和防空系统已是一片废墟。
Allied planes flew where they pleased, day or night, 500 at a time, then 1,000 at a time, indiscriminately dumping avalanches of bombs on every city and town in Axis territory that had a military installation, or a railroad yard, or a factory.
盟军飞机不分昼夜地飞向他们喜欢的地方，一次 500 架，然后一次 1,000 架，不加区别地向轴心国领土上拥有军事设施、铁路站或工厂的每个城镇投掷大量炸弹。
There was no precedent, even in this war, for the destruction on so ferociously a scale.
即使在这场战争中，也没有发生如此大规模的破坏的先例。
It was the largest berserker rage in history.
这是历史上最大规模的狂暴之怒。
The Allies routinely dropped incendiary bombs in such great numbers that they created firestorms in cities throughout the Axis countries.
盟军经常投掷大量燃烧弹，导致轴心国的城市引发大火。
These weren't simply large fires.
这些不仅仅是大火。
A true firestorm is a freak event, where a large central core of flame heats up explosively to more than 1,500 degrees, and everything within it goes up by spontaneous combustion.
真正的火灾风暴是一种反常事件，其中巨大的中央火焰核心会爆炸性地加热到 1,500 度以上，并且其中的所有物体都会因自燃而上升。
Buildings erupt, the water boils out of rivers and canals, the asphalt and the pavement ignites.
建筑物爆发，河流和运河中的水沸腾，沥青和人行道着火。
Immense intake vortices spring up around the core and begin sucking in oxygen from the surrounding atmosphere at hurricane speeds.
巨大的进气漩涡在核心周围产生，并开始以飓风的速度从周围的大气中吸入氧气。
The Allied raids reduced cities in minutes to miles of smoking debris.
盟军的袭击在几分钟内将城市变成了数英里的冒烟废墟。
Hundreds of thousands of people were killed, about 20% of them children.
数十万人被杀，其中约20%是儿童。
Tens of thousands suffocated, because in the area around a firestorm, there's no oxygen left to breathe.
数万人窒息而死，因为在大火周围地区，没有氧气可供呼吸。
Out of idle curiosity, I've been asking friends, people my age and younger, what they know about war.
出于好奇，我一直在询问朋友们，包括我的同龄人和比我年轻的人，他们对战争了解多少。
War stories they've heard from their families, facts they've learned in school, stray images that may have stuck with them from old TV documentaries.
他们从家人那里听到的战争故事，在学校学到的事实，以及旧电视纪录片中可能留下的零散图像。
I wasn't interested in the fine points of strategy, but the key events, the biggest moments, the things people at the time had thought would live on as long as there was anybody around to remember the past.
我对战略的细节不感兴趣，但对关键事件、最重要的时刻、当时人们认为只要有人记得过去就会继续存在的事情感兴趣。
To give everybody a big enough target, I asked about World War II.
为了给大家一个足够大的目标，我问了第二次世界大战。
I figured people had to know the basics.
我认为人们必须了解基础知识。
World War II isn't exactly easy to miss.
第二次世界大战并不容易被错过。
It was the largest war ever fought, the largest single event in history.
这是有史以来规模最大的战争，也是历史上规模最大的单一事件。
So what are the people I ask know about the war?
那么我询问的人对这场战争了解多少？
Nobody could tell me the first thing about it.
没有人能告诉我关于它的第一件事。
Once they got past who won, they almost drew a blank.
当他们弄清楚谁获胜后，他们几乎一片空白。
All they knew were those big, totemic names, Pearl Harbor, D-Day, Auschwitz, Hiroshima.
他们只知道那些大的、图腾般的名字：珍珠港、诺曼底登陆、奥斯威辛、广岛。
The rest was gone.
其余的都消失了。
Kasserine, Leyte Gulf, Corregidor, Filles, the Ardans didn't provoke a glimmer of recognition.
卡塞林、莱特湾、科雷希多、菲尔斯、阿丹人都没有引起一丝认可。
They might as well have been off ramps on some exotic interstate.
他们也可能是在某个异国情调的州际公路上驶出匝道的。
What had happened, for instance, at one of the war's biggest battles, the Battle of Midway?
例如，战争中最大的战役之一——中途岛海战——发生了什么？
It was in the Pacific.
那是在太平洋。
There was something about aircraft carriers.
有一些关于航空母舰的事情。
Wasn't there a movie about it?
不是有一部电影是讲这个的吗？
A couple of people were even surprised to hear that Midway airport in Chicago was named after the battle, though they'd walk past the ugly commemorative sculpture in the concourse so many times.
一些人甚至惊讶地听说芝加哥中途岛机场是以这场战役命名的，尽管他们多次路过大厅里丑陋的纪念雕塑。
All in all, this was a dispiriting exercise.
总而言之，这是一次令人沮丧的练习。
The astonishing events of that morning at Midway, the quote, "fatal five minutes" on which the War and the fate of the world had hung, had been reduced to a plaque nobody reads at an airport with a vaguely puzzling name midway between Chicago and nowhere at all.
那天早上在中途岛发生的令人震惊的事件，那句挂在战争和世界命运之上的“致命的五分钟”，已经被简化为一块牌匾，在一个位于芝加哥和任何地方之间的机场上，没有人读到它的名字，上面有一个模糊令人费解的名字。
Is it that the War was 50 years ago, and nobody cares anymore about what happened in the past?
难道战争已经过去50年了，没有人再关心过去发生的事情了吗？
Maybe so.
也许是这样。
But I think what my little survey really demonstrates is how vast the gap is between the experience of war and the experience of peace.
但我认为我的小调查真正表明的是战争经历与和平经历之间有多么巨大的差距。
And there's another and simpler reason the war has been forgotten.
战争被遗忘还有另一个更简单的原因。
People wanted to forget it.
人们想忘记它。
It had gone on for so many years, had destroyed so much, had killed so many.
它已经持续了很多年，摧毁了很多东西，杀死了很多人。
Most US casualties were in the final year of fighting.
大多数美军伤亡是在战斗的最后一年发生的。
When it came to an end, people were glad to be rid of everything about it.
当它结束时，人们很高兴摆脱了它的一切。
That was what surprised commentators about the public reaction in America and Europe when the news broke that Germany and then Japan had at last surrendered.
当德国和日本最终投降的消息传出时，美国和欧洲公众的反应令评论家感到惊讶。
In the wild celebrations that followed, nobody crowed, our enemies are destroyed.
在随后的疯狂庆祝活动中，没有人欢呼，我们的敌人被消灭了。
Nobody even yelled, we've won.
没有人喊叫，我们赢了。
What they all said instead was, the war is over.
相反，他们都说，战争已经结束了。
That was the message that flashed around the world in the summer of 1945, the war is over.
1945 年夏天，世界各地闪现出这样的信息：战争已经结束。
The war is over.
战争结束了。
Matt Malloy reading from an article by Lee Sandlin that first appeared in The Chicago Reader in March, 1997.
马特·马洛伊 (Matt Malloy) 正在阅读李·桑德林 (Lee Sandlin) 于 1997 年 3 月首次发表在《芝加哥读者》上的文章。
Coming up, soccer moms and Sioux warriors in agreement and ready to fight.
接下来，足球妈妈和苏族勇士们达成一致，准备战斗。
In a minute, from Public Radio International and WBEZ Chicago, when our program continues.
稍后，来自国际公共广播电台和芝加哥 WBEZ 的节目将继续进行。
It's This American Life, I'm Ira Glass.
这就是美国生活，我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, the coming war and what are we to make of it.
今天的节目、即将到来的战争以及我们将如何应对。
We've arrived at act four of our program.
我们已经到了节目的第四幕了。
Act four, Are You Ready?
第四幕，你准备好了吗？
Over the last week, Scott Carrier drove 2,000 miles across the country, from his home in Salt Lake City up north and east till he arrived here in Chicago, talking to people about the coming war.
上周，斯科特·卡里尔 (Scott Carrier) 驾车穿越全国 2,000 英里，从他在盐湖城的家向北和向东行驶，直到抵达芝加哥，与人们谈论即将到来的战争。
If it's part of the American character to be profoundly skeptical, and another part to be boldly patriotic, he found both tendencies, often in the very same person.
如果说美国人性格的一部分是深深的怀疑，另一部分是大胆的爱国，那么他发现这两种倾向，往往在同一个人身上。
Hate is a complex emotion, hard to understand.
仇恨是一种复杂的情感，很难理解。
There's the hate in other people, and there's the hate inside, hiding at the bottom of my heart, both shown at once by the building's collapsing.
别人身上有仇恨，我内心也有仇恨，藏在心底，这两种仇恨都在大楼倒塌时表现出来。
The best advice I heard was from a friend, who said that thinking was out of the question for a while.
我听到的最好的建议来自一位朋友，他说思考暂时是不可能的。
But it's hard not to think.
但很难不去想。
And after 10 days, I got in my truck and drove north towards Yellowstone.
十天后，我坐上卡车向北驶向黄石公园。
The leaves would be changing, and the air might bite.
树叶会变，空气也会刺痛。
The air is clear, and light as sharp as a diamond.
空气清澈，光线如钻石般锋利。
170 miles, I stopped in Afton, Wyoming in the Star Valley, home of Olympic gold medal wrestler, goofy Rulon Gardner.
170 英里后，我在怀俄明州阿夫顿的星谷停下来，这里是奥运会金牌摔跤手鲁伦·加德纳 (Rulon Gardner) 的故乡。
It was evening, getting dark, and I saw lights from a playing field, and stopped to watch a soccer game and talk to some people in bleachers.
那是晚上，天黑了，我看到运动场上有灯光，就停下来观看一场足球比赛，并与看台上的一些人交谈。
OK, I'm Shane Ogenson.
好的，我是肖恩·奥根森。
We're in Star Valley, Wyoming.
我们在怀俄明州星谷。
It's kind of a small rural area.
这是一个小农村地区。
Most of the economy is based on dairy farming and whatnot.
大部分经济都是基于奶牛养殖等。
So the question I'm asking everybody is, are you ready to go to war?
所以我要问大家的问题是，你们准备好参战了吗？
I think it's scary.
我觉得这很可怕。
And I'm draftable, so if it does turn into something that's major or something, then I could be shipped off to someplace I don't want to go and doing something that I don't really want to do.
而且我是可征召的，所以如果它确实变成了一些重要的事情或其他事情，那么我可能会被送到一个我不想去的地方，做一些我真的不想做的事情。
So are you ready to go to war?
那么你准备好参战了吗？
No, you're not.
不，你不是。
If my country needs me, I'll go.
如果祖国需要我，我就去。
I think it's my responsibility as an America.
我认为这是我作为美国人的责任。
If my country needs me, I'll go and I'll die for my country, and I'll be proud of it.
如果我的国家需要我，我就会去，我会为我的国家而死，我会为此感到自豪。
But I'm not sure if I support the exact cause of why we'd be fighting this war.
但我不确定我是否支持我们打这场战争的确切原因。
I mean, I think the perpetrators should be punished, but I'm not sure if going to war is going to solve that, especially when you don't have any specific real enemy to be going after.
我的意思是，我认为肇事者应该受到惩罚，但我不确定战争是否能解决这个问题，特别是当你没有任何具体的真正的敌人需要追捕时。
My name is Jenny Hanson, and we're in Afton, Wyoming at my 15 year old's soccer game.
我叫珍妮·汉森 (Jenny Hanson)，我们正在怀俄明州阿夫顿观看我 15 岁孩子的足球比赛。
Am I ready to go to war?
我准备好参战了吗？
I believe that if it's going to make the world a safer place to live, if you can eliminate terrorism, yeah, I would support it.
我相信，如果它能让世界变得更安全，如果你能消除恐怖主义，是的，我会支持它。
Yeah, I mean, I have five sons, and it's scary to even think about going to work, but that's the price of freedom.
是的，我的意思是，我有五个儿子，一想到去工作就感到害怕，但这就是自由的代价。
Even if it meant your own sons going to war?
即使这意味着你自己的儿子要参战？
Yeah, even if it meant my own sons.
是的，即使这意味着我自己的儿子。
That's scary, but all the other mothers would have to sacrifice their sons too.
这很可怕，但所有其他母亲也必须牺牲自己的儿子。
And there'll be those that will run, but that's their choice.
会有一些人会竞选，但这是他们的选择。
But to me, the price of freedom is through sacrifice.
但对我来说，自由的代价是牺牲。
I drove through one of the southern entrances to Yellowstone Park at midnight.
午夜时分，我开车穿过黄石公园的南部入口之一。
I pulled off the road on some kind of dirt loop and slept, waking up in the early morning looking straight at Mt. Moran, the Teton with a white tongue of snow, a [UNINTELLIGIBLE] down the center of the eastern face.
我把车停在一条土路上，然后睡着了，清晨醒来，直视着莫兰山，提顿山上有白色的雪舌，东面中央有一条[无法辨认]的东西。
In an hour, I was at the northern end of Yellowstone Lake, the water clear and quiet, the rocks along the shore palm sized, round and dark, perfect for throwing, not for skipping, but at another man's head.
一个小时后，我就到了黄石湖的北端，湖水清澈又安静，岸边的岩石巴掌大，圆圆的，黑乎乎的，适合投掷，不适合跳绳，而是对着另一个人的头。
I follow the Yellowstone River to Mammoth Hot Springs, out of the park, and down Paradise Valley to Deep Creek, where I stopped to talk to Doug Peacock.
我沿着黄石河到达猛犸温泉，出了公园，沿着天堂谷到达深溪，在那里我停下来与道格·皮科克交谈。
My name is Doug Peacock, and we're sitting in my front yard, which is an old farmhouse with a huge cottonwood tree that's dying, and we're in the shade of the cottonwood right now.
我叫道格·皮科克，我们坐在我的前院，那是一座古老的农舍，有一棵巨大的三叶杨树快要枯死了，我们现在就在三叶杨的树荫下。
If I learned anything from Vietnam, it's just that there was no enlightenment at homicide.
如果说我从越南学到了什么的话，那就是杀人没有启蒙。
And what finally sent me over the edge was the Tet Offensive where my little A-Camp-- I was a Green Beret medic-- and my little A-Camp, the Viet Cong drove a couple hundred civilians across the river, and our A-Camp called in gunships on them.
最终让我陷入困境的是春节攻势，我的小 A 营——我是一名绿色贝雷帽军医——我的小 A 营，越共驱赶几百名平民过河，我们的 A 营呼叫武装直升机攻击他们。
And about 180 women and children were killed and wounded.
大约180名妇女和儿童被杀或受伤。
And I was the only medic there, and I spent my last two weeks in Vietnam splicing back together bodies.
我是那里唯一的医务人员，我在越南度过了最后两周的时间，负责拼接尸体。
And that pushed me over the edge.
这把我推到了悬崖边。
And I just realized that either I was going to have to live the rest of my life with an eye for an eye notion, or to retain any trace of humanity, I was going to have to really suffer with this.
我刚刚意识到，要么我将不得不以眼还眼的观念度过余生，要么保留任何人性的痕迹，我将不得不真正承受这种痛苦。
The enemy is within, and it's within all of us.
敌人就在我们内心，它就在我们所有人的内心。
And I think the greatest thing we could do, having been the victim, finally we've been the victim, is to realize that our own hands are not that clean at all.
我认为，作为受害者，我们最终成为受害者，我们能做的最伟大的事情就是意识到我们自己的手根本不那么干净。
I think the most courageous thing we could do is not strike back at all, not strike back.
我认为我们能做的最勇敢的事情就是根本不反击，不反击。
No eye for an eye.
没有以眼还眼。
Defeat hate, and you can't do that by war and violence, you've got to do it by love.
战胜仇恨，你不能通过战争和暴力来做到这一点，你必须通过爱来做到这一点。
And you get there, I think, by looking at the sufferings of others, even the ones we don't like out there.
我认为，通过观察他人的痛苦，甚至是那些我们不喜欢的人的痛苦，你就能到达那里。
I remembered reading in Blackout Speaks , or maybe Great Plains by Ian Frazier that Crazy Horse, when he was killed, was trying to get back to the Powder River on the Northwest side of the Black Hills.
我记得在伊恩·弗雷泽（Ian Frazier）的《停电之声》（Blackout Speaks）或《大平原》（Great Plains）中读到，疯马被杀时，正试图返回黑山西北侧的保德河。
But he was stabbed, held by a friend and bayoneted in the back at Fort Robinson, way on the other side of the mountains.
但在山的另一边的罗宾逊堡，他被一位朋友从背后刺伤并用刺刀刺伤。
I asked Peacock how to get to the Powder River, and he got out a map and showed me.
我问孔雀怎么去粉河，他拿出一张地图给我看。
He said, on your way, go through Plenty Coups and stop at the museum.
他说，在路上，经过 Plenty Coups，然后在博物馆停下来。
Plenty Coups was a Crow chief who sided with the US cavalry against their traditional enemies, the Sioux and the Cheyenne.
普伦蒂·政变是一位克劳族首领，他站在美国骑兵一边对抗他们的宿敌苏族和夏延族。
I found the museum 150 miles to the east, 40 miles down a dirt road, and when I walked in, the woman at the desk said, are you lost?
我在东边 150 英里、沿着一条土路 40 英里处找到了博物馆，当我走进去时，前台的女士说，你迷路了吗？
Which made me laugh hard like an idiot, and I said, I wish.
这让我像个白痴一样大笑，我说，我希望如此。
Her name was Bernadette Smith.
她的名字叫伯纳黛特·史密斯。
Are you ready to go to war?
你准备好参战了吗？
Bernadette Smith No, I'm not ready to go to war.
伯纳黛特·史密斯 不，我还没准备好参战。
But we have to protect our citizens, so if war is inevitable, then I will support it.
但我们必须保护我们的公民，所以如果战争不可避免，那么我会支持它。
Do you have any relatives who might be going?
你有亲戚可能会去吗？
I have a-- oh, I shouldn't tell you this.
我有一个——哦，我不应该告诉你这个。
My nephew is in Marine reserves, and he's in Bulgaria now.
我的侄子在海军陆战队预备役，他现在在保加利亚。
He's in a reconnaissance battalion.
他在侦察营。
And he called-- he said the next time we heard from him would probably be through his Staff Sergeant.
他打电话说，下次我们收到他的消息时可能会通过他的上士。
She's kind of hard to understand because she's crying, but she's saying that her nephew, whom she raised as a son, called and said goodbye.
她有点难以理解，因为她在哭，但她说的是她作为儿子抚养长大的侄子打电话道别。
That the next call she'd get would be from a Staff Sergeant, saying he'd been killed.
她接到的下一个电话将是一名上士打来的，说他被杀了。
He's a paratrooper, and he's probably the first to go in when you go in searching for somebody.
他是一名伞兵，当你去寻找某人时，他可能是第一个进去的。
And pride themselves on--.
并为自己感到自豪——。
How do you feel about that?
你对此有何感想？
Bernadette Smith I personally don't like it, but kids are raised.
伯纳黛特·史密斯 我个人不喜欢这样，但孩子是长大的。
They have their dreams, they want to be macho, they want to save their country.
他们有自己的梦想，他们想成为男子气概，他们想拯救他们的国家。
He's a Crow Indian, and he wants to help save the tribe and promote peace, so what can you do but support him?
他是克罗印第安人，他想帮助拯救部落并促进和平，那么除了支持他你还能做什么呢？
That's not what you raised him for, but if that's one of their goals, you just have to accept it.
这不是你养育他的目的，但如果这是他们的目标之一，你就必须接受它。
The battlefield of the Little Big Horn is 60 miles east of the Plenty Coups Museum, still in Montana.
小大角的战场位于蒙大拿州 Plenty Coups 博物馆以东 60 英里处。
It looks just like it does in the movies, a pathetic knob on a grass prairie, a lonely place to be slaughtered.
它看起来就像电影里的一样，草原上的一个可悲的旋钮，一个孤独的待宰之地。
There are crosses marking where Custer and his brother fell, along with all of his men, more than 260, mostly immigrants.
卡斯特和他的兄弟以及他手下的 260 多人倒下的地方有十字架，其中大部分是移民。
They ran out of bullets and were scalped.
他们的子弹用完了，被剥了头皮。
There's a museum there as well, and inside there are three of Custer's uniforms.
那里还有一个博物馆，里面有三套卡斯特的制服。
He was a small man, I'm guessing no bigger than 5'4" and 130 pounds.
他是个小个子，我猜身高不会超过 5 英尺 4 英寸，体重不会超过 130 磅。
My name is Bill Bennett.
我叫比尔·贝内特。
We're traveling through Custer National Park right now.
我们现在正在穿越卡斯特国家公园。
There's a national cemetery here.
这里有一个国家公墓。
The cemetery houses veterans of clear back to Spanish American War, clear up to the Korean War.
墓地里埋葬着从美西战争到朝鲜战争的退伍军人。
Let's pray and hope that we don't have any from the Taliban War that may eventually be buried here.
让我们祈祷并希望塔利班战争中的任何东西最终不会被埋葬在这里。
I lived in Iran for two and a half years when the Afghan coup in 1978 came.
1978 年阿富汗政变爆发时，我在伊朗生活了两年半。
Why were you over there in Iran at that point?
你当时为什么在伊朗？
I was a maintenance adviser to the Iranian Air Force when they were attempting to get their Air Force up to comparable Air Force to the United States government on their F-16s and F-4s, and some of those things back in the late '70s.
我是伊朗空军的维护顾问，当时伊朗空军正试图让他们的空军在 F-16 和 F-4 方面达到与美国政府空军相当的水平，其中一些是在 70 年代末期的。
And I've driven across Afghanistan, so I got a pretty good feel for the country and the mountains.
我开车穿越了阿富汗，所以我对这个国家和山脉有很好的感觉。
And I think for them to put troops on the grounds in there, with that type of terrain and everything, is going to be disastrous.
我认为，对于他们来说，在那样的地形和一切条件下部署军队将是灾难性的。
The terrain in the northern part there is very, very mountainous, And in the desert it's just high brush.
北部的地形非常非常多山，沙漠里只有高高的灌木丛。
And to give you an example, we were driving a Chevrolet Blazer across there, and another couple was with us.
举个例子，我们开着一辆雪佛兰开拓者穿过那里，另一对夫妇和我们在一起。
We drive across the flat plain, and just nothing but brush and sand as far as the eye could see.
我们开车穿过平坦的平原，放眼望去，除了灌木丛和沙子，什么也没有。
We'd stop and pull off the road and put the back door of the Blazer down and get some drinks and some sandwiches or something out, and in 10 minutes, there'd be two or three men standing around us.
我们停下来，把车停在路边，把 Blazer 的后门放下，拿些饮料、三明治什么的，十分钟后，就会有两三个男人站在我们周围。
And they had these sandy colored leather coverings on, and you couldn't see them.
他们戴着这些沙色皮革覆盖物，你看不到它们。
You'd never ever see them out in the desert.
你永远不会在沙漠中看到他们。
And they were curious enough that when we stopped, they'd come up.
他们很好奇，当我们停下来时，他们就会过来。
They wouldn't take any water, they wouldn't take anything.
他们不会拿任何水，他们不会拿任何东西。
How they lived out there, I don't have any idea.
他们在那里过着怎样的生活，我不知道。
But as proven by the Russians being in there, that's why they whipped the Russians, because you just don't see them.
但正如俄罗斯人在那里所证明的那样，这就是他们鞭打俄罗斯人的原因，因为你只是看不到他们。
So if you were called-- I realize you are past that age, but if you were of age and you were called now, would you go?
所以，如果你被召唤——我知道你已经过了那个年龄，但如果你已经成年并且现在被召唤，你会去吗？
Of course I would, you betcha.
我当然愿意，你打赌。
Every time they play the National Anthem, I get a tear in my eye.
每次他们奏国歌时，我都会热泪盈眶。
I'm as true an American as you'll ever find.
你会发现我是一个真正的美国人。
Pine Ridge Reservation for the Oglala Lakota is on the High Plains, on the eastern side of the Black Hills, South Dakota.
奥格拉拉拉科塔松岭保留地位于南达科他州布莱克山东侧的高原上。
Wounded Knee is there, the site of the 1890 massacre of 300 men, women, and children wiped out for ghost dancing.
受伤的膝盖就在那里，1890 年这里发生了大屠杀，300 名男女老少因鬼舞而惨遭杀害。
The town of Pine Ridge has a distinct Third World feel to it.
松岭镇具有独特的第三世界氛围。
One taco stand, a gas station run out of a mobile home, a grocery store with sale prices painted on butcher paper and stapled to the walls outside, some coming apart in the wind and blowing around the parking lot.
一个玉米饼摊、一个由移动房屋搭建而成的加油站、一家杂货店，销售价格都画在屠夫纸上并钉在外面的墙上，有些在风中散开，在停车场周围吹来。
I was standing next my truck in the parking lot, drinking a Pepsi, and there were two men in a beat up Monte Carlo next to me.
我站在停车场的卡车旁边，喝着百事可乐，旁边有两个男人开着一辆破旧的蒙特卡洛汽车。
The one in the passenger seat called over.
副驾驶座上的人叫了过来。
Hey, hey, my friend wants to see your badge.
嘿嘿，我的朋友想看看你的徽章。
Somehow I got them to agree to an interview.
我设法让他们同意接受采访。
Hello.
你好。
My name is George Rester.
我叫乔治·雷斯特。
I'm 37 seven years old.
我今年37岁七岁了。
I am from Wounded Knee, South Dakota.
我来自南达科他州受伤的膝盖。
So the question I've been asking everybody is, are you ready to go to war?
所以我一直问大家的问题是，你们准备好参战了吗？
Of course.
当然。
Oglala Lakota are always warriors.
奥格拉拉·拉科塔永远是战士。
We won't lay down.
我们不会躺下。
It's going to happen.
这将会发生。
No fear, we'll do it.
不用担心，我们会做到的。
Would you personally sign up?
你会亲自报名吗？
George Rester Well, I've been to Panama, the Gulf.
乔治·雷斯特：嗯，我去过巴拿马湾。
I will do it again.
我会再做一次。
So what do you think about the war on terrorism.
那么您对反恐战争有何看法？
How do you feel about it?
你对此有何感想？
It's a senseless cause.
这是一个毫无意义的原因。
An enemy you can reach and touch and kill.
一个你可以触及、触摸并杀死的敌人。
But this one, faceless.
但这个，无脸。
Why are you so willing to support it, if it's a war like that?
如果这是一场这样的战争，你为什么如此愿意支持它？
Because of the flag.
因为旗帜。
My dad served in World War I, World War II.
我父亲参加过第一次世界大战和第二次世界大战。
Patriotism, that's what it is.
爱国主义，就是这样。
But you're willing to go because of the warrior tradition?
但你愿意因为武士传统而去吗？
Yeah, of course.
是的，当然。
Scott Carrier It's the idea of fighting and--
斯科特·卡里尔：这是战斗的想法，而且——
It's the adrenaline flow of reaching inside another person's body and pulling their heart out when it's sill beating, that's what it is.
这是肾上腺素流进入另一个人的身体并在心脏跳动时将其拉出，就是这样。
Driving across South Dakota, I can't remember it.
开车穿过南达科他州，我不记得了。
The Missouri was dammed into a reservoir, I do remember that.
密苏里号被拦入水库，我记得。
Maybe I drove most of it at night.
也许我大部分时间都是在晚上开车的。
I know I woke up in southern Minnesota, found a town, and stopped at a restaurant that opened early.
我知道我在明尼苏达州南部醒来，找到了一个小镇，并在一家早开门的餐馆停下来。
Chuck Murphy from Blue Earth, Minnesota.
来自明尼苏达州蓝色地球的查克·墨菲。
We're in a restaurant called Hamilton's.
我们在一家叫汉密尔顿的餐馆里。
We meet down here on Sunday morning, we call it our Sunday School.
我们周日早上在这里见面，我们称之为主日学。
We still all go to church, but it's just something we do.
我们仍然都会去教堂，但这只是我们所做的事情。
We get together.
我们聚在一起。
So the question I've been asking everybody is, are you ready to go to war?
所以我一直问大家的问题是，你们准备好参战了吗？
I think we should go to war.
我认为我们应该发动战争。
Scott Carrier How come?
斯科特·开利 怎么会这样？
So how about you sir?
那么先生您呢？
Well, I don't know, it's about-- I think it is really going to be good for this country.
嗯，我不知道，我认为这确实对这个国家有利。
It's going to bring everybody together, it is.
它将把每个人聚集在一起，是的。
Because I think what had happened before is we started going in our own separate directions.
因为我认为之前发生的事情是我们开始朝着各自不同的方向前进。
People were doing this and doing that, and this has just plain brought the country back together.
人们做这做那，这显然让这个国家重新团结起来。
And I think it's going to be a whole different country from now on.
我认为从现在开始这将是一个完全不同的国家。
Driving around, listening to talk radio, it didn't seem to me like the country was becoming more united.
开车到处转，听广播电台，在我看来，这个国家并没有变得更加团结。
Frankly I'm shocked at what I'm hearing from you, I can't believe that you're so un-American.
坦白说，我对你的消息感到震惊，我不敢相信你是如此不美国人。
[INTERPOSING VOICES] And you're attacking-- oh, free speech, my foot.
[插话]你在攻击——哦，言论自由，我的脚。
[INTERPOSING VOICES] I'm starting to get livid at your attacks on the United States of America and this president.
[插话] 我开始对你对美利坚合众国和这位总统的攻击感到愤怒。
You have been.
你曾经是。
Female Caller I support this country.
女来电者我支持这个国家。
I don't know why you have me on.
我不知道你为什么要找我。
I don't either.
我也不。
You're right, that's the first smart thing you've said.
你说得对，这是你说的第一句话。
Get her off the phone.
让她挂断电话。
Goodbye.
再见。
1-800-655-MIKE, I don't know why I had her on either.
1-800-655-MIKE，我也不知道为什么让她接电话。
You know, there's no room for that kind of voice right now in America.
你知道，现在美国没有这种声音的空间。
We don't need her.
我们不需要她。
Go over to Afghanistan and--
去阿富汗然后——
I'm Ryan Walden, and I'm a biologist here at Northeastern Iowa.
我是瑞安·沃尔登，是爱荷华州东北部的一名生物学家。
And this is a hawk watch weekend, and I do educational programs with birds of prey.
这是一个观察鹰的周末，我和猛禽一起做教育项目。
Has your life changed since the Tuesday attack?
自周二袭击事件以来，您的生活发生了变化吗？
Yes, as a matter of fact it has, and in a very strange way.
是的，事实上确实如此，而且是以一种非常奇怪的方式。
One of the items that I talk about in the program, and I've done my program since 1970, is that the call of the barn owl sounds like a hysterically screaming woman.
我在节目中谈论的项目之一（自 1970 年起我就开始做节目）是，谷仓猫头鹰的叫声听起来像一个歇斯底里尖叫的女人。
No one has ever commented on that before, and yet yesterday, there were two complaints registered that I had said that.
以前没有人对此发表过评论，但昨天，有两起投诉表明我曾说过这样的话。
Can you understand that?
你能明白吗？
Ryan Walden I think that it's absolutely totally and completely ridiculous.
Ryan Walden 我认为这绝对是完全荒谬的。
Will I change?
我会改变吗？
Yes, simply because I am paid to be here, and my job is to educate people are not to offend them.
是的，只是因为我来这里是有报酬的，我的工作就是教育人们不要冒犯他们。
But I think that the American people should stop whining about Mickey Mouse things such as that, and get some handle on what is really important.
但我认为美国人民应该停止抱怨米老鼠之类的事情，并了解真正重要的事情。
The wind had been blowing hard from the north, coming down from Canada, and it clouded up and started to rain.
风从加拿大吹来，从北方吹来，天上乌云密布，开始下雨。
I crossed the Mississippi at Prairie du Chien, Prairie of Dog, Wisconsin, headed for Madison through farm country, rolling fields of corn, waves of corn, big silos and barns.
我在威斯康星州多格草原 (Prairie du Chien) 横渡密西西比河，穿过农田、连绵起伏的玉米田、一波又一波的玉米、大筒仓和谷仓，前往麦迪逊。
I saw two Amish boys walking down the road, and I pulled into a driveway and waited for them to come up to me.
我看到两个阿米什男孩走在路上，我把车开进车道，等他们向我走来。
Come up here a little closer.
到这里来近一点。
Amish Boy Do we have to do this now?
阿米什男孩 我们现在必须这样做吗？
I mean, our religion is-- we'd just as well stay away from it if we can, but you got to have our advice?
我的意思是，我们的宗教是——如果可以的话，我们最好远离它，但你必须听取我们的建议吗？
I don't have to have your advice.
我不需要你的建议。
I'm asking you for it.
我向你要这个。
Well, we will consciously object to fighting with firearms.
那么，我们就会有意识地反对用枪械打架。
All we know is what the neighbors are saying.
我们只知道邻居们在说什么。
We have no electricity.
我们没有电。
We get a weekly newspaper, but we do not know what's going on out there.
我们有一份周报，但我们不知道外面发生了什么。
What have you heard?
你听到了什么？
Amish Boy Well, we've heard that the planes crashed in New york.
阿米什男孩 嗯，我们听说飞机在纽约坠毁。
We've heard there were a lot of people lost.
我们听说有很多人失踪。
We pray for you in our churches, but we are not involved in your-- we are not involved in this.
我们在我们的教堂里为你们祈祷，但我们不参与你们的事——我们不参与这件事。
Now I'm in Chicago, staying at the Hotel InterContinental on the 25th floor.
现在我在芝加哥，住在洲际酒店25楼。
From my window, I can look across and see the flying buttresses on top of the Tribune Building, a building with stones mortared into its base from battlefields, monuments, and temples from around the world.
从我的窗户，我可以看到论坛报大厦顶部的飞扶壁，这座建筑的底座是用来自世界各地的战场、纪念碑和寺庙的石头砌成的。
One from the Great Wall of China, one from the Coliseum in Rome.
一幅来自中国长城，一幅来自罗马竞技场。
Stones from the Islands of Corregidor and Guam, from Pearl Harbor, one from the Little Big Horn in Yellowstone Park.
来自科雷希多岛和关岛的石头，来自珍珠港的石头，一颗来自黄石公园小大角的石头。
Even a rock from Indian Joe's Cave along the Mississippi River, and a section of a California Redwood.
甚至还有来自密西西比河沿岸印第安乔洞穴的一块岩石，以及加州红杉的一部分。
It's late at night.
已经是深夜了。
There's one car on Grand Avenue all the way to Navy Pier, reaching out into Lake Michigan.
格兰德大道上有一辆车一直开到海军码头，一直延伸到密歇根湖。
A drunk crossing the street and stumbling at the curb, falling down on the sidewalk and getting up, staggering towards home.
一个醉汉过马路，在路边绊倒，摔倒在人行道上，然后爬起来，摇摇晃晃地朝家走去。
It's a beautiful night, moon half full.
这是一个美丽的夜晚，月亮半圆。
I keep forgetting.
我老是忘记。
I keep forgetting watching the buildings come down.
我总是忘记看着建筑物倒塌。
But they did come down, and now we're going to war.
但他们确实倒下了，现在我们要开战了。
More limbs blown off, guts exploded open, eyes gouged out and heads chopped off.
更多的四肢被炸断，内脏炸开，眼睛被挖出，头被砍掉。
I remember listening to the beginning of the Bears Viking game driving into town on Sunday.
我记得周日开车进城时听到了维京熊队比赛的开头。
I realize that you shouldn't go into a fight thinking you might lose or thinking you might win, or wondering whether what you're doing is right or wrong.
我意识到你不应该在战斗中认为自己可能会输或认为自己可能会赢，或者想知道自己所做的事情是对还是错。
The best advice is to not think at all.
最好的建议是根本不去想。
Scott Carrier.
斯科特·开利.
Credits Ira Glass Well, a huge big thanks today to Jerome McDonald and Andrea Wenzel of WBEZ's program World View .
感谢 Ira Glass 嗯，今天非常感谢 WBEZ 节目 World View 的 Jerome McDonald 和 Andrea Wenzel。
Also thanks to Joe Richmond, Allison True, Carrie Maninetti, John Dorner, John Connors, Barry Glass, and Mike Black at WEOS in Geneva, New York.
还要感谢纽约日内瓦 WEOS 的 Joe Richmond、Allison True、Carrie Maninetti、John Dorner、John Connors、Barry Glass 和 Mike Black。
Jason Bitner played our folk cover of the song War.
贾森·比特纳（Jason Bitner）演奏了我们的民谣歌曲《战争》（War）的翻唱版。
Scott Carrier's story was supported by hearingvoices.com, with funds provided by the Corporation For Public Broadcasting.
斯科特·卡里尔的故事得到了hearingvoices.com 的支持，资金由公共广播公司提供。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight by Torey Malatia, who in these hard times is trying not to say anything offensive.
[资金来源] WBEZ 管理由托里·马拉蒂亚 (Torey Malatia) 负责监督，在这个困难时期，他尽量不说任何冒犯性的话。
Simply because I am paid to be here, and my job is to educate people and not to offend them.
仅仅是因为我来这里是有报酬的，我的工作是教育人们而不是冒犯他们。
That's right.
这是正确的。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。