189: Hitler’s Yacht - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #189 | April 4, 2003 189: Hitler’s Yacht Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 189 集 | 2003 年 4 月 4 日 189：希特勒的游艇 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass The elite end of the German Navy was the submarine corps.
序言 艾拉·格拉斯 德国海军的精锐部队是潜艇部队。
Those who served on subs during World War II were the best paid, the best fed, the smartest, the toughest.
二战期间在潜艇上服役的人工资最高、吃得最好、最聪明、最勤奋。
1,100 submarines, they sunk 2,800 Allied ships.
1,100艘潜艇，击沉了2,800艘盟军船只。
And of the German subs, the deadliest were the Type IX subs.
在德国潜艇中，最致命的是 IX 型潜艇。
You have the sound room and the radio room.
你有音响室和广播室。
To the right of that, we're going to go into our officers' quarters and into the kitchen where these two have already opted to cook for us today.
在右边，我们将进入军官宿舍和厨房，这两个人今天已经选择为我们做饭。
Come on in.
进来吧。
Watch your head.
小心你的头。
One of these subs, the U-505 there we has been on permanent display at Chicago's Museum of Science and Industry since the 1950s.
其中一艘潜艇 U-505 自 20 世纪 50 年代以来一直在芝加哥科学与工业博物馆永久展出。
It's stuffy, it's hot, and it's unbelievably cramped.
很闷，很热，而且令人难以置信的狭窄。
Now check this out.
现在检查一下。
This is the kitchen for 59 guys.
这是 59 个人的厨房。
From the point of view of the Nazi government that built this sub, this right here is pretty much a worst-case scenario-- little black and brown-skinned children climbing through one of the most powerful machines of destruction pointing and laughing being interviewed, being interviewed by a Jewish reporter who has not entirely lost that pestering, nasal Jewish-y quality that was ever-so-annoying back in the fatherland.
从建造这艘潜艇的纳粹政府的角度来看，这几乎是最糟糕的情况——黑皮肤和棕色皮肤的小孩子爬过最强大的毁灭机器之一，一边指着一边笑着接受采访，接受采访的是一位犹太记者，他还没有完全失去那种在祖国时令人讨厌的、缠着鼻音的犹太品质。
That is pretty much not the way they wanted the war to come out.
这几乎不是他们希望战争结束的方式。
Little American kids thinking that they could have served on this boat.
美国小孩子认为他们可以在这艘船上服役。
If I was on board, I would like to be the captain for all that ship.
如果我在船上，我想成为这艘船的船长。
I want to be the captain.
我想成为队长。
Tourist Boy 2 I want to be the person that walks around and checks around the whole boat.
旅游男孩 2 我想成为一个四处走动并检查整艘船的人。
I want to be the person that carries the torpedoes and puts them in the thing and shoots them off.
我想成为携带鱼雷并将其放入鱼雷并将其发射的人。
Now, believe it or not, we've just walked from our back part of our boat all the way up to the front.
现在，不管你信不信，我们刚刚从船的后部一直走到前部。
Are there any questions yet?
还有问题吗？
Yeah, how come if this was a German U-boat, how come most of this stuff is in English not German?
是啊，为什么如果这是一艘德国潜艇，为什么大部分内容都是英语而不是德语？
See, they're making it easy to help you.
看，他们让您可以轻松地获得帮助。
In fact, this kid is on to something.
事实上，这孩子是有想法的。
There are not many German words.
德语单词不多。
There are no swastikas onboard, no reminders of Nazis at all, in fact.
事实上，船上没有纳粹标志，根本没有纳粹的痕迹。
The thought that these were bunk beds where slept men who wanted to kill us, who sunk seven Allied ships themselves, who fought for the notion of an Aryan homeland and a master race, these unpleasant thoughts, they are not encouraged.
想到这些是双层床，睡着想要杀死我们的人，他们自己击沉了七艘盟军船只，他们为雅利安家园和优等种族的概念而战，这些令人不快的想法，他们不被鼓励。
And you know, maybe that is for the best.
你知道，也许这是最好的。
Because I think if the museum would play up the evil, Nazi angle-- these are the dishes that the evil men ate from, this is their evil silverware.
因为我认为如果博物馆能够发挥邪恶的纳粹角度——这些是邪恶之人吃的盘子，这是他们邪恶的银器。
I think what they would lose in dignity, you can be sure they would gain dozens of times over in attendance.
我认为他们失去的尊严，你可以肯定他们会获得数十倍的出勤率。
And how do I know this is true?
我怎么知道这是真的？
Because, my friend, I have heard the story of Hitler's yacht, a fable if you will, a modern fable of what happens when the free market, the media, the World War II buffs, the neo-Nazis, and the Jews all collide over a huge Nazi tourist trap.
因为，我的朋友，我听过希特勒游艇的故事，如果你愿意的话，这是一个寓言，一个现代寓言，讲述当自由市场、媒体、二战爱好者、新纳粹分子和犹太人在一个巨大的纳粹旅游陷阱上发生冲突时所发生的事情。
We have devoted our entire program today to this story.
我们今天的整个节目都在讲述这个故事。
It's kind of an amazing story.
这是一个奇妙的故事。
Alix Spiegel has spent months investigating Hitler's yacht, a craft whose original name was the Ostwind.
阿利克斯·斯皮格尔花了几个月的时间调查希特勒的游艇，这艘游艇的原名是“东风号”。
For this hour she will be our guide.
这一小时她将担任我们的向导。
Here's Alix.
这是阿利克斯。
There are things that we know and there are things that we don't know.
有些事情我们知道，有些事情我们不知道。
We know that Hitler ordered it built in 1936 and that is cost a small fortune, close to $250,000.
我们知道希特勒于 1936 年下令建造它，耗资不菲，接近 25 万美元。
We know that it was completed in 1939, that each cabin was finished in a different fine wood, and that its sail, over 40 feet long, was made of a rare Egyptian linen.
我们知道它于 1939 年竣工，每个舱室均采用不同的优质木材制成，其 40 多英尺长的帆是由稀有的埃及亚麻制成的。
We know that its designer was Heinrich Gruber, the most lauded naval architect at the time.
我们知道它的设计者是海因里希·格鲁伯（Heinrich Gruber），他是当时最受赞誉的海军建筑师。
And we know that its purpose was to demonstrate the superiority of the master race.
而我们知道，它的目的就是为了展示优等种族的优越性。
But we don't know, we'll never be able to say with absolute certainty whether or not Hitler ever actually set foot on the Ostwind, or if this idea was just some twisted collective fantasy perpetuated for over half a century by celebrity-crazed Americans.
但我们不知道，我们永远无法绝对肯定地说希特勒是否真的踏上东风河，或者这个想法是否只是狂热的美国人半个多世纪以来的扭曲的集体幻想。
Of course there were always rumors about the yacht.
当然，关于这艘游艇的谣言一直存在。
And some of those rumors were repeated so often that it's difficult now to distinguish them from fact.
其中一些谣言被重复得如此频繁，以至于现在很难将它们与事实区分开来。
One of the rumors was that Hitler and his mistress, Eva Braun, used the Ostwind for pleasure cruises.
其中一个谣言是希特勒和他的情妇爱娃·布劳恩使用东风号进行游轮旅行。
Another is that Hitler had an extraordinary affection for the boat, that it was very important to him, and that when he talked about it, he always referred to it as his special lady.
另一个是希特勒对这艘船有着非凡的感情，这对他来说非常重要，当他谈到它时，他总是称它为他特别的女士。
But there's no real evidence for any of this, just as there's no real evidence that Hitler's ghost continues to haunt the decks, or that the boat was used as a brothel by high-ranking Nazi officials, or that the yacht itself is cursed, that it will kill, maim, or financially decimate anyone unfortunate enough to own it.
但这一切都没有真正的证据，就像没有真正的证据表明希特勒的鬼魂继续在甲板上出没一样，或者这艘船被纳粹高级官员用作妓院，或者这艘游艇本身受到了诅咒，它会杀死、致残或在经济上摧毁任何不幸拥有它的人。
Although, on this last point at least, there does seem to be a series of suspiciously consistent anecdotes.
尽管如此，至少在最后一点上，似乎确实存在一系列可疑的一致轶事。
This is the story of the last days of the Ostwind, one of two yachts built by the Nazi government after a poor German showing in the 1936 Olympic races.
这是关于“东风”号最后日子的故事，这是纳粹政府在德国队在 1936 年奥运会上表现不佳后建造的两艘游艇之一。
Even though its original purpose was to demonstrate the superiority of the German people in Olympic competition, the Ostwind actually spent most of its life in America, war booty transported here by the US Navy in 1947.
尽管它最初的目的是为了展示德国人民在奥运会比赛中的优越性，但“东风”号实际上是在美国度过了它的大部分生命，1947年美国海军将战利品运到这里。
I should tell you that when it arrived in this country, it wasn't known as Hitler's yacht.
我应该告诉你，当它到达这个国家时，它并不被称为希特勒的游艇。
It became Hitler's yacht.
它成为希特勒的游艇。
More precisely, we made it Hitler's yacht.
更准确地说，我们把它变成了希特勒的游艇。
The Ostwind's sister ship, the Nordwind, a boat, mind you, with an identical pedigree, built at the same time by the same people for the same purpose, has never been known as Hitler's yacht.
请注意，东风号的姊妹船北风号是一艘具有相同血统的船，由同一个人出于同一目的在同一时间建造，从未被称为希特勒的游艇。
To this day, it sails in Britain under the name The White Rose, a charter boat which inspires no controversy, attracts no attention at all.
直到今天，它仍以“白玫瑰”号的名义在英国航行，这艘包租船没有引起任何争议，也没有引起任何关注。
But here in America, sometime in the 1950s, we made the Ostwind into Hitler's yacht.
但在美国，在 20 世纪 50 年代的某个时候，我们把东风号变成了希特勒的游艇。
We made it into Hitler's yacht and then we sailed it, cursed it, set it on fire, restored it, tried to put it in a museum, stripped it to a skeleton, and finally sailed it into the Miami Harbor, and as a group of Holocaust survivors stood witness on the deck of a boat nearby, sank it to the bottom of the sea.
我们把它变成了希特勒的游艇，然后驾驶它，诅咒它，放火焚烧它，修复它，试图把它放进博物馆，把它剥得只剩下骨架，最后把它驶进迈阿密港，一群大屠杀幸存者站在附近一艘船的甲板上见证，把它沉入海底。
That road is a back road to the airport.
这条路是通往机场的一条后路。
Pecan Park there.
那里有山核桃公园。
Biscayne there, which runs into Dunn.
那里有比斯坎，与邓恩相连。
J.J.
J.J.
Nelson has lived in Jacksonville, Florida, all his life on the Southside of town in a neighborhood called Panama Park.
尼尔森一直住在佛罗里达州杰克逊维尔，他一生都住在城镇南边一个叫巴拿马公园的社区。
It's a modest neighborhood which borders the Trout River, a series of small ranch houses with water views and long docks stretching out behind them.
这是一个与特劳特河接壤的朴素街区，有一系列小牧场房屋，可欣赏水景，后面延伸着长长的码头。
J.J.
J.J.
owned one of those docks.
拥有其中一个码头。
He made his living renting boat space to wealthy weekenders who understood the pleasures of a fishing line and a cold beer.
他向富有的周末度假者出租船位为生，这些人懂得钓鱼线和冰镇啤酒的乐趣。
J.J., himself, was a fan of fishing lines and cold beer, particularly cold beer.
J.J. 本人非常喜欢钓鱼线和冰镇啤酒，尤其是冰镇啤酒。
He was a famous Jacksonville drunk.
他是杰克逊维尔著名的酒鬼。
Now this is not a past that J.J.
现在这已经不是 J.J. 的过去了。
is ashamed of, not at all.
是羞耻，一点也不。
More than once he's told me, without a note of regret in his voice, that as a young man he had, and I quote, "the worst reputation from Miami to Virginia."
他不止一次地告诉我，他的声音中没有一丝遗憾，我引用他作为一个年轻人的名声，“从迈阿密到弗吉尼亚，名声最差”。
So I went down to Jacksonville to visit J.J.
所以我去杰克逊维尔拜访 J.J.
I spent two days in his truck listening to his extravagantly entertaining, occasionally appalling, and seemingly endless stories.
我在他的卡车里待了两天，听他讲述极其有趣、有时令人震惊、看似无穷无尽的故事。
J.J.
J.J.
is an excellent storyteller and a genius at Jacksonville history.
是一位出色的讲故事者，也是杰克逊维尔历史方面的天才。
He specializes in two particular kinds of narratives-- tails about crooked politicians thieving the public, and yarns about his own rather intimate experience with debauchery.
他擅长两种特殊的叙事——关于不诚实的政客盗窃公众的故事，以及关于他自己相当亲密的放荡经历的故事。
Like the time J.J.
就像当时的 J.J.
tricked a man who had crossed him into marrying the woman that J.J.
欺骗一个冒犯了他的男人娶了 J.J. 的女人。
had tired of living with.
已经厌倦了一起生活。
She's really a nasty drunk, pretty but nasty.
她真是个令人讨厌的酒鬼，漂亮但令人讨厌。
So I said, Johnny, you could come visit, but I said, my wife is a millionaire, she's a nymphomaniac.
所以我说，约翰尼，你可以来拜访，但我说，我的妻子是百万富翁，她是个色情狂。
And she's an alcoholic.
她是个酒鬼。
And it's all I can do to handle her.
我能做的就是对付她。
I can't put up with you.
我无法忍受你。
It don't seem like I hung the phone up, he was there.
看来我没挂电话，他就在那儿。
So he came in.
于是他进来了。
And he had been on a ship three years saving his money.
他已经在船上攒了三年钱了。
So I went down in my office on the side of the house and I'd left her estate book out, which is about this thick of all the properties she owned, and land, and her money.
于是我走进了房子一侧的办公室，把她的遗产簿留在了外面，里面有她拥有的所有财产、土地和钱。
And he had smoked a carton of cigarettes and put the ashtray, reading all of what she was worth.
而他已经抽完一盒烟，放在烟灰缸里，读着她所有的价值。
The next night she didn't come upstairs to bed.
第二天晚上，她没有上楼睡觉。
And I went down and they were both passed out together on the floor nude.
我倒下去，他们都赤身裸体地一起昏倒在地板上。
I won't tell you what position.
我不会告诉你什么位置。
But he was about to choke.
但他快要窒息了。
I said, he has bit the hook.
我说，他已经咬钩了。
There was a story about the time J.J.
有一个关于 J.J. 时期的故事。
shot a man for dunking his dog underwater, a couple of stories, which involved J.J.
枪杀了一名男子，因为他将他的狗浸入水下，有几个故事，其中涉及 J.J.
falling off a bridge.
从桥上掉下来。
And then there was the time that J.J.
然后有一次，J.J.
spent two drunk days on Danish shipper with an entire crew of female sailors.
与一整群女水手在丹麦货轮上喝醉了两天。
He had met two or three of the women crew members at a bar downtown, and after a night of drinking, accepted their invitation to continue the party back at the ship.
他在市中心的一家酒吧遇到了两三名女船员，喝了一晚酒后，他接受了她们的邀请，回到船上继续聚会。
The story from here follows a plot line familiar to any occasional viewer of hotel Pay-per-view.
从这里开始的故事遵循任何偶尔观看酒店付费节目的人都熟悉的情节主线。
For two days J.J.
两天来，J.J.
stumbled from cabin to cabin to cabin having so much fun that he actually refused to leave the boat even after it left port.
他跌跌撞撞地从一个船舱到另一个船舱，玩得很开心，甚至在船离开港口后他甚至拒绝离开船。
We got out just about the sea buoy, which is about a mile off the jetties in the ocean.
我们在海上浮标附近下了船，距离海上的码头大约一英里。
And I had a new suit on, new shoes.
我穿上了新衣服、新鞋子。
I'd been to a big party.
我参加过一个大型聚会。
They got me dressed, got my clothes all on, my shoes, and they opened the door hatch.
他们给我穿上衣服，穿上我的衣服，穿上鞋子，然后打开门舱。
I figure, well hell-- you know how drunk is-- they're taking me to better quarters if it's possible.
我想，好吧——你知道有多醉——如果可能的话，他们会带我去更好的地方。
[BLEEP] they just opened the side hatch and threw me overboard, bam, in the ocean.
[哔] 他们刚刚打开侧舱门，把我扔到海里，砰，扔到海里。
And then there's the story of Hitler's yacht, the most eye-popping, jaw-dropping story of all.
然后是希特勒游艇的故事，这是所有故事中最令人瞠目结舌、瞠目结舌的故事。
The yacht arrived at J.J.'s dock in 1982.
这艘游艇于 1982 年抵达 J.J. 的码头。
I didn't realize it was anything special.
我没有意识到这有什么特别的。
It was an old half-rotted sailboat.
那是一艘已经腐烂了一半的旧帆船。
It was worm-eaten and sunk down in the mud.
它已被虫蛀并沉入泥浆中。
And the decks were all right.
甲板上的一切都很好。
But it was junk as far as I was concerned.
但就我而言，它是垃圾。
By the time the yacht made it to J.J.'s dock in Panama Park, it had had a number of American owners, I think around six or seven.
当这艘游艇抵达巴拿马公园 J.J. 的码头时，它已经拥有了许多美国船主，我想大约有六七个。
Two had dropped dead of heart attacks shortly after buying the Ostwind.
购买东风号后不久，就有两人因心脏病去世。
One had lost his left and part of his skull when he was hit in the face by the boat's mainsheet winch handle.
其中一人的脸部被船上的主帆绞盘手柄击中，失去了左手和部分头骨。
There was a lawyer dude who supposedly used it for orgies, or prostitution, or something like that.
有一个律师家伙据说用它来狂欢、卖淫或类似的事情。
And then there was Horace Glass.
然后是霍勒斯·格拉斯。
Horace Glass was a restoration enthusiast obsessed with a single purpose, to restore the Ostwind to its original glory and turn it into a floating museum of its own history.
霍勒斯·格拉斯 (Horace Glass) 是一位修复爱好者，他的目标只有一个：将东风号恢复到原来的辉煌，并将其变成一座展示其历史的浮动博物馆。
To reach this end, Glass sacrificed 14 years, $178,000, three homes, two businesses, and an antique camera collection.
为了实现这一目标，格拉斯牺牲了 14 年的时间、178,000 美元、三套房子、两家企业和收藏的古董相机。
In other words, he bankrupted his family, lost almost everything they had ever owned.
换句话说，他让他的家庭破产了，几乎失去了他们曾经拥有的一切。
So after the whole floating museum idea didn't really work out, Horace needed a place to store the boat while he searched for a buyer.
因此，在整个浮动博物馆的想法没有真正实现后，霍勒斯在寻找买家时需要一个地方来存放这艘船。
And this is how the Ostwind ended up at J.J.'s dock.
东风号就这样停在了 J.J. 的码头上。
So he asked me, could he store the boat at my dock.
所以他问我可以把船停在我的码头吗？
And I said, yeah.
我说，是的。
And he brought it around on drums.
他用鼓来传播它。
There was hardly no bottom in it.
几乎没有底。
Well after it had been there a couple of months, people started calling me and saying, do you know what kind of boat you've got there, whose boat that is?
它在那里几个月后，人们开始打电话给我说，你知道你那里有什么类型的船吗？那是谁的船？
And I said, yeah.
我说，是的。
It's Horace Glass.
我是霍勒斯·格拉斯。
And they said, no, that's Hitler's boat.
他们说，不，那是希特勒的船。
And I said, my god.
我说，天啊。
Horace, meanwhile, was busy trying to get his family out of hock.
与此同时，贺拉斯正忙着让他的家人摆脱困境。
He placed a series of advertisements in papers all over the country.
他在全国各地的报纸上刊登了一系列广告。
And those advertisements attracted a lot of attention.
这些广告引起了很多关注。
In particular, they attracted the attention of a man from Massachusetts.
它们尤其吸引了一位来自马萨诸塞州的男子的注意。
Charles T.
查尔斯·T.
Sanderson of Kingston, Mass.
马萨诸塞州金斯顿的桑德森
He'd seen something about it.
他已经看到了一些关于它的事情。
And he called and he arranged to buy the boat and get it off my property.
他打电话来，安排买下这艘船并将其从我的财产上移走。
Now Charles Sanderson of Kingston, Mass.
现为马萨诸塞州金斯顿市的查尔斯·桑德森 (Charles Sanderson)。
was a man who'd been involved in a variety of questionable business dealings over the years.
多年来，他参与了各种可疑的商业交易。
I have four solid interview tapes full of colorful examples, all of them highly libelous, half most likely exaggerated.
我有四盘扎实的采访录音带，里面充满了丰富多彩的例子，所有这些都是高度诽谤的，一半很可能是夸大的。
A typical story involves a faux English businessman with fake accent, a historical landmark, Latin American smugglers, and a boat full of frozen flounder.
一个典型的故事涉及一个带有假口音的假英国商人、一个历史地标、拉丁美洲走私者和一艘装满冷冻比目鱼的船。
But there are other flounder-free claims against Charlie, several of which actually made it into the legal system.
但还有其他针对查理的毫无争议的索赔，其中一些实际上已经进入了法律体系。
In 1991, Charlie was found guilty of defrauding the First National Bank of Boston for close to $1 million and was sentenced to a year in prison.
1991年，查理因诈骗波士顿第一国家银行近100万美元而被判入狱一年。
It's fair to say that Charles Sanderson was a controversial character.
公平地说，查尔斯·桑德森是一个有争议的人物。
He was also a memorabilia collector.
他也是一位纪念品收藏家。
Airplanes, tanks, bazookas, handguns, medals, he's got a three-story house and I guarantee there's not a place in it you can't walk that there's that the Nazis made or had.
飞机、坦克、火箭筒、手枪、奖章，他有一栋三层楼的房子，我保证里面没有一个地方是你不能走的，那是纳粹制造或拥有的。
It wasn't just Nazi memorabilia, not at all.
这不仅仅是纳粹纪念品，一点也不。
Charlie loved history and owned a huge number of historical artifacts.
查理热爱历史，拥有大量历史文物。
He specialized in materials from Admiral Richard E.
他专门研究理查德·E·海军上将的材料。
Byrd's arctic exploration.
伯德的北极探险。
So naturally when he read about the Ostwind in the paper, he immediately contacted Horace and made a deal.
因此，当他在报纸上看到有关东风号的消息时，他自然而然地立即联系了霍拉斯并达成了交易。
Then Charlie went down to visit the boat at J.J.'s dock.
然后查理下去参观 J.J. 码头的船。
When he arrived, he found it under 15 feet of water.
当他到达时，他发现它在15英尺深的水下。
After he'd spent about two weeks trying to get the boat up, he'd come to me in my office.
在他花了大约两周的时间试图把船弄上来后，他来到我的办公室来找我。
He'd never spoke to me up until then.
在那之前他从未和我说过话。
He was eating down in the restaurant and had his crew and he was staying in motels.
他在餐厅里吃饭，带着他的工作人员，而他则住在汽车旅馆里。
So finally when he couldn't get the boat up because it was jammed between barges and a dock, he'd come to me and said, look here, what do you charge me to get that boat up?
所以最后，当他因为卡在驳船和码头之间而无法把船弄上来时，他来找我说，看这里，你要我付多少钱才能把那艘船弄上来？
And I said, what are you going to do when you get it up?
我说，你起来后打算做什么？
It's just going to sink again.
只会再次沉下去。
He said, I'm going to take it to Boston.
他说，我要把它带到波士顿。
Like Horace, Charlie wanted to restore the boat and turn it into a museum.
和贺拉斯一样，查理也想修复这艘船并将其变成博物馆。
Specifically, Charlie proposed to display Hitler's yacht in the town of Plymouth, Massachusetts, at a location 15 minutes from the site where the Pilgrims first landed the Mayflower in 1620.
具体来说，查理提议在马萨诸塞州普利茅斯镇展示希特勒的游艇，该地点距离清教徒 1620 年首次登陆五月花号的地点 15 分钟路程。
It was an idea which didn't meet with much enthusiasm from the local population.
这个想法并没有引起当地居民的热情。
City Council in Massachusetts or Plymouth had a meeting and wouldn't allow the boat in the state.
马萨诸塞州或普利茅斯市议会召开会议，不允许该船进入该州。
That's a public record.
这是公开记录。
The Boston Herald , Wednesday, March 20, 1985-- "Town fathers said yesterday that they would fight tooth and nail plans by a local developer to turn Adolf Hitler's yacht into a museum in the town where the Pilgrims landed the Mayflower.
《波士顿先驱报》，星期三，1985 年 3 月 20 日——“镇父们昨天表示，他们将竭尽全力反对当地开发商将阿道夫·希特勒的游艇改建成朝圣者登陆五月花号的镇上的博物馆的计划。
Local officials described the vessel as an affront to the Jewish community." "There are two chances we'll let that yacht in here," Plymouth Selectman, William Nolan, was quoted as saying, "slim and none".
当地官员称这艘船是对犹太社区的侮辱。” “我们有两次机会让这艘游艇停在这里，”普利茅斯·塞特曼威廉·诺兰说道，“机会很小，没有机会”。
Charlie gave up on his plan to station Hitler's yacht at the landing place of the Pilgrims.
查理放弃了将希特勒的游艇停靠在朝圣者登陆点的计划。
But he didn't give up on his idea of returning the Ostwind to its former nautical majesty.
但他并没有放弃让东风号恢复昔日航海威严的想法。
He hired a famous yacht builder and undertook, what looked to J.J., like an extensive and very expensive restoration project.
在 J.J. 看来，他聘请了一位著名的游艇制造商，并进行了一项规模庞大且非常昂贵的修复工程。
There were men working on the boat at all hours.
船上随时都有人在工作。
Each plank was carefully removed, sandblasted, and stored.
每块木板都被小心地拆除、喷砂并存放。
Screws, bolts, rust, everything was saved.
螺丝、螺栓、生锈，一切都被拯救了。
What I didn't know until about two months later, one of the guys that worked for me said, you know what he's doing with those boards he's taking off , the planks?
直到大约两个月后，我才知道，一位为我工作的人说，你知道他正在用他取下的那些木板做什么吗？
And I said, no. He's cutting them up, and marking them, selling them for souvenirs.
我说，不。他把它们切碎、标记，然后把它们卖作纪念品。
I said, my god, who would buy them?
我说，天哪，谁会买？
He said, some of those little old boards are the size of a box of matches.
他说，有些旧小木板有火柴盒那么大。
He's getting $500 for them.
他为他们得到了 500 美元。
And I had no idea that some damn fool would pay $500 for a little piece of teak.
我也不知道有哪个该死的傻瓜会花 500 美元买一小块柚木。
Charlie would sit sometime for hours at the foot of the boat and talk to the Fuhrer, himself.
有时查理会在船尾一坐几个小时，与元首本人交谈。
In his mind he'd sit there and talk.
在他看来，他会坐在那里说话。
And then he'd chatter about well, Hitler walked here.
然后他会喋喋不休地说，希特勒走过这里。
Hitler did this.
希特勒就是这样做的。
The Fuhrer did this.
元首这样做了。
The Fuhrer did that.
元首就是这么做的。
Did you ever kind of confront him and say, you're crazy?
你有没有当过他的面说，你疯了？
Well I'm a cracker.
好吧，我是个饼干。
I kind of thought it was funny.
我觉得这很有趣。
It's kind of like a circus your kid goes to.
这有点像你的孩子去的马戏团。
First time you see somebody walking around in a cage with lions, you kind of think it's funny and stupid at the same time.
当你第一次看到有人在狮子笼子里走来走去时，你会觉得这既有趣又愚蠢。
And it was kind of a circus really.
这确实有点像马戏团。
I tried to talk to Charlie about the Ostwind.
我试图和查理谈论东风号。
I called four or five times and asked for an interview.
我打了四五次电话要求面试。
But Charlie wasn't interested.
但查理不感兴趣。
He told me he'd only owned the yacht for a brief period, five or six months at the most, which I knew wasn't true.
他告诉我他只拥有这艘游艇很短一段时间，最多五六个月，但我知道这不是真的。
But when I called him on it, he just denied it.
但当我打电话给他时，他却否认了。
He also denied that he had ever intended to station the yacht near Plymouth Rock no matter what the paper said.
他还否认自己曾打算将游艇停泊在普利茅斯岩附近，无论报纸如何报道。
And he even denied that he owned an extensive antique collection.
他甚至否认自己拥有大量古董收藏。
Then he told me that he could barely remember a thing about the boat.
然后他告诉我他几乎不记得关于这艘船的任何事情了。
It was such a brief period so long ago.
那是很久以前的一段短暂的时光。
And that in any case, he had nothing of import to say about it.
无论如何，他对此没有什么重要可说的。
That was the phrase that he used, nothing of import.
这是他用过的一句话，没什么重要意义。
Charlie, I'm told, is a very pleasing person, a man with charisma you just can't resist.
据我所知，查理是一个非常讨人喜欢的人，一个有着令人无法抗拒的魅力的人。
Lots of people told me this, even the ones he had ripped off.
很多人告诉我这一点，甚至包括那些被他盗用的人。
They described some terrible con Charlie pulled on them, then scratched their heads and tell me how much they still liked the guy, all the while staring off into space with a dazed expression like they'd just hit their head on something really hard and they were trying to figure out who they were and how they got here.
他们描述了查理对他们实施的一些可怕的骗局，然后抓着头告诉我他们仍然多么喜欢这个家伙，同时他们一直盯着太空，表情茫然，就像他们的头刚刚撞到了很重的东西一样，他们试图弄清楚他们是谁以及他们是如何来到这里的。
Charlie's magic certainly worked on J.J.
查理的魔力确实对 J.J. 起作用了。
After a couple of months they became friends and then business partners of sorts, which helps explain J.J.'s tolerance of some of Charlie's more unusual attitudes.
几个月后，他们成为了朋友，然后又成为了某种商业伙伴，这有助于解释 J.J. 对查理一些更不寻常的态度的容忍。
You see, Charlie convinced J.J.
你看，查理说服了 J.J.
that he was in a position to provide him with $50 million to develop the Trout River Waterfront into a high-end marine village, a dream which J.J.
他能够为他提供 5000 万美元，将特劳特河滨水区开发成高端海洋村庄，这是 J.J. 的梦想。
had harbored since he was a boy.
他从小就怀有。
In return for this promise, J.J.
作为对这一承诺的回报，J.J.
drove Charlie around and introduced him to Jacksonville's rich, powerful, and political-- men Charlie viewed as potential business investors.
开车带查理四处走动，并向他介绍了杰克逊维尔的富有、有权势的政治人物——查理认为这些人是潜在的商业投资者。
There's actually a long and sordid story to tell about Charles Sanderson and his con of the city of Jacksonville, a story which begins when Charlie convinces the city to sell him a valuable downtown property at a vastly reduced price, claiming he would bring jobs and economic opportunity by installing a world-class military museum.
关于查尔斯·桑德森和他对杰克逊维尔市的骗局，实际上有一个漫长而肮脏的故事要讲。这个故事始于查理说服市政府以大幅折扣的价格向他出售一处有价值的市中心房产，声称他将通过建立世界一流的军事博物馆来带来就业和经济机会。
It ends, naturally, with a huge expose of Charlie and certain civic leaders in Jacksonville's newspaper, the Florida Times-Union.
自然地，它以杰克逊维尔的报纸《佛罗里达时报联合报》对查理和某些公民领袖的大规模曝光而结束。
It turns out Charlie had neither the funds to pay for the property nor the objects he had promised to exhibit in the museum.
事实证明，查理既没有资金购买房产，也没有他承诺在博物馆展出的物品。
So Charlie was run out of town.
所以查理被赶出城了。
And J.J., through grit, and cunning, and a certain amount of river rat guile, ended up inheriting Hitler's yacht.
J.J.凭借勇气、狡猾，以及一定程度的河鼠诡计，最终继承了希特勒的游艇。
Unlike Charlie or Horace, J.J.
与查理或霍勒斯不同，J.J.
had no great plan for the boat.
对这艘船没有什么好的计划。
And so it sat, a rotting ghost of a promise made long ago on a piece of land near J.J.'s dock for close to two years until some neighborhood boys came by and decided that Hitler's yacht was an ideal place to start a fire.
就这样，它就像很久以前许下的承诺的腐烂幽灵一样，在 J.J. 码头附近的一块土地上搁置了近两年，直到一些邻居男孩经过并认为希特勒的游艇是生火的理想场所。
When these kids set it afire, the deck afire, at one corner, then people were scared to tie their boats to the dock.
当这些孩子在一个角落放火时，甲板着火了，人们吓得把船绑在码头上。
Because if one boat catches afire at a dock with all that gasoline, then they all burn.
因为如果一艘船在码头着火，所有的汽油都会被烧毁。
So then people wouldn't tie their boat there because they were afraid their boat would catch afire.
所以人们不会把船拴在那里，因为他们担心船会着火。
Because they were afraid people would come set that boat afire and catch their boat afire.
因为他们害怕有人会来放火烧那条船并烧毁他们的船。
We had a very popular restaurant right nearby the dock, Jackie's, the original.
我们在码头附近有一家非常受欢迎的餐厅，Jackie's，原来的。
Not where it is now.
不是现在的地方。
And then people started walking out and saying, oh, is this the boat, a lot of big shots, the higher class of people.
然后人们开始走出去并说，哦，这是船吗，很多大人物，更高阶层的人。
And they started telling my sister, you ought to get that boat off this dock.
他们开始告诉我姐姐，你应该把那艘船从这个码头上开走。
It's just a terrible thing to have that boat here.
那艘船在这里真是太糟糕了。
And you know how things stockpile and keep blowing and getting bigger.
你知道事物是如何储存并不断膨胀并变得更大的。
After the fire, a whole cast of odd and blighted characters began to visit the boat.
火灾发生后，一群奇怪而枯燥的人物开始参观这艘船。
There was the Holocaust survivor whose wife had died in a concentration camp and who claimed that when he stood near the yacht, he could hear the voice of his long dead love.
有一位大屠杀幸存者，他的妻子死在集中营里，他声称当他站在游艇附近时，他能听到他死去已久的爱人的声音。
And then there was the old woman with a portable plastic lawn chair.
然后是那位拿着便携式塑料草坪椅的老妇人。
German lady, and she spoke mostly German.
德国女士，她主要说德语。
And she would set there by the boat in a chair.
她会坐在船边的椅子上。
She'd bring her chair and hold on to the boat and pray that she could feel the presence of the Fuhrer.
她会搬上椅子，抓住船，祈祷自己能感受到元首的存在。
So she would scrape little pieces of paint off the boat for souvenirs.
所以她会刮掉船上的小块油漆作为纪念品。
One person had come down to the dock and pulled a piece of plank, and off and run up the dock and fell and broke his leg.
一个人来到码头，拉了一块木板，然后跑上码头，摔倒了，摔断了腿。
He could have had the wood as far as I was concerned.
就我而言，他本来可以拥有木材。
But he thought he was stealing it.
但他认为他是在偷东西。
So we had to put a guard on the dock to keep people from vandalizing it or tearing up other people's boats.
因此，我们必须在码头上设置一名警卫，以防止人们破坏码头或撕毁其他人的船只。
Even with the guard there were problems, fights, and thieves, and all kinds of strange people who appeared out of the woodwork, drawn for very personal, private reasons to what Hitler represented.
即使有警卫，也存在问题、打架、小偷，以及各种突然出现的奇怪的人，他们出于非常个人、私人的原因而被希特勒所代表的东西所吸引。
Where were you born?
你在哪里出世？
Abe Resnick I was born in a small city in Lithuania, Rokiskis.
阿贝·雷斯尼克 (Abe Resnick) 我出生在立陶宛的一个小城市罗基斯基斯。
The very personal, private reasons which drew Abe Resnick to Hitler's yacht can be found in a mass grave near Rokiskis, Lithuania, his father, his mother, his two sisters.
吸引阿贝·雷斯尼克（Abe Resnick）来到希特勒游艇的非常私人的原因可以在立陶宛罗基斯基斯附近的乱葬坑中找到，他的父亲，他的母亲，他的两个姐妹。
In this interview with the Shoah Foundation, Abe describes the death of his family.
在接受大屠杀基金会的采访时，安倍描述了他家人的死亡。
He also talks about watching his neighbors dig their own graves, and saving his grandmother from some prison guards, and wandering for days in the woods cold, afraid, and half mad with hunger after escaping from his German captors in 1941.
他还谈到了看着他的邻居挖掘自己的坟墓，从一些狱警手中救出了他的祖母，以及 1941 年逃离德国俘虏后，他在寒冷、恐惧和饥饿的树林里徘徊了好几天。
After his escape, Abe joined the Russian Army looking, he says, for revenge.
安倍逃亡后加入了俄罗斯军队，他说是为了复仇。
And in a way, he found it.
在某种程度上，他找到了。
He was in one of the first army units to come across Hitler's bunker, the site of Hitler's last days and death by suicide immediately after the fall of Berlin.
他是第一批发现希特勒地堡的部队之一，这里是希特勒最后几天的所在地，并在柏林陷落后立即自杀身亡。
You should have seen the inside of the bunker.
你应该看看地堡的内部。
I mean, it was amazing.
我的意思是，这太棒了。
I didn't have a camera to shoot pictures.
我没有相机来拍照。
But it was a little city was in the city.
但这是城中之城。
And I want to mention to you that we have seen the corpses, the burning corpses of Eva Braun and of Adolf Hitler.
我想告诉你们，我们已经看到了爱娃·布劳恩和阿道夫·希特勒的尸体，燃烧的尸体。
It was an incredible experience for us, especially for those, the Jews who were in the camps.
这对我们来说是一次令人难以置信的经历，尤其是对于那些在难民营里的犹太人来说。
In 1985, 40 years after Abe stood over what he believed was the burned corpse of Adolf Hitler, he got a call from a rabbi in Mandarin, Florida.
1985 年，安倍站在他认为是阿道夫·希特勒被烧毁的尸体旁 40 年后，他接到了佛罗里达州曼达林市一位拉比的电话。
At the time, Abe was a real estate developer and the Vice-Mayor of Miami Beach.
当时，安倍是一名房地产开发商和迈阿密海滩副市长。
He was also very active in the movement to keep the memory of the Holocaust alive.
他还非常积极地参与保持大屠杀记忆的运动。
So active that the street next to the Holocaust Memorial in Miami is called the Abe Resnick Boulevard.
如此活跃，以至于迈阿密大屠杀纪念馆旁边的街道被称为阿贝·雷斯尼克大道。
So it was only natural for the rabbi to call Abe, only natural for the rabbi to ask Abe what he thought should be done about the problems presented by Hitler's yacht-- the constant traffic, the freak show atmosphere.
因此，拉比打电话给安倍是很自然的，拉比询问安倍对于希特勒游艇带来的问题他认为应该采取什么措施——不断的交通、怪胎表演的气氛——是很自然的。
It turned out Abe did have an idea for the boat.
事实证明，安倍确实有关于这艘船的想法。
And after talking to the rabbi, he flew to Jacksonville to discuss his idea with J.J.
与拉比交谈后，他飞往杰克逊维尔与 J.J. 讨论他的想法。
Well he came up and asked me what I wanted to do with it, what did I think about doing with it.
好吧，他走过来问我想用它做什么，我想用它做什么。
I said, well I had some offers.
我说，好吧，我有一些优惠。
And we had dinner at my sister's restaurant, Jackie's, the original one on Trout River, and spent the afternoon talking and walking.
我们在我姐姐开的杰基餐厅（Jackie's）吃了晚饭，这家餐厅最初位于特劳特河（Trout River），然后我们一边聊天一边散步，度过了整个下午。
And he was telling me, what did your daddy do?
他告诉我，你爸爸做了什么？
And I told him he was a seaman.
我告诉他他是一名海员。
And he said, well what do you think he would want this thing-- you know, he's good salesman-- he said, he's dead.
他说，你认为他会想要这个东西吗——你知道，他是优秀的推销员——他说，他死了。
Don't you think it'd be kind of a disgrace to give this something that represents this much tyranny and horror to the world and make a shrine out of it?
你不认为把这个代表如此暴虐和恐怖的东西送给世界并用它建造一座神殿是一种耻辱吗？
I said, well, you're absolutely right.
我说，嗯，你说得完全正确。
He said, let me tell you what I'd like to do with it.
他说，让我告诉你我想用它做什么。
And he told me.
他告诉我。
Abe wanted to sink Hitler's yacht in the Miami Harbor, to blow it up while a group of Holocaust survivors watched from a boat nearby.
安倍想在迈阿密港击沉希特勒的游艇并将其炸毁，而一群大屠杀幸存者则在附近的一艘船上观看。
He thought this act would provide the survivors with some kind of closure, with a sense that we now lived in a very different world.
他认为这一行为将为幸存者提供某种结束，让他们感觉到我们现在生活在一个非常不同的世界。
Abe told J.J.
安倍告诉 J.J.
he wanted to plan the sinking to coincide with the 50th anniversary of the Voyage of the Damned, when 900 Jewish refugees on board a ship called the St. Louis were denied entrance to the United States and forced to return to Europe.
他希望将沉没事件安排在“诅咒之旅”50 周年纪念日之际，当时一艘名为“圣路易斯”号的船上的 900 名犹太难民被拒绝进入美国并被迫返回欧洲。
About 700 of the 900 Jewish passengers were slaughtered in concentration camps.
900 名犹太乘客中约有 700 人在集中营中被屠杀。
And the idea was to collect whatever survivors there were and maybe some other dignitaries, perhaps even some Nobel Prize winners, and sail them all out to the point in the Miami Harbor where the St. Louis had been turned away.
我们的想法是收集所有幸存者，也许还有一些其他政要，甚至可能是一些诺贝尔奖获得者，然后将他们全部驶向迈阿密港，圣路易斯号被拒绝的地方。
At that point, at that point exactly, they would demonstrate to themselves and to anyone else who'd cared to notice that the tide had certainly changed.
在那一刻，确切地说，他们会向自己和任何其他愿意注意到潮流确实发生了变化的人证明。
In the words of Abe Resnick, words which were quoted extensively after his meeting with J.J.
用 Abe Resnick 的话说，他与 J.J. 会面后被广泛引用。
became public, "We intend to apply the final solution.
公开表示，“我们打算应用最终的解决方案。
We intend to apply the final solution to Hitler's yacht."
我们打算将最终的解决方案应用到希特勒的游艇上。”
It was certainly better to sink that boat off in Miami where it would do some good for some fish to breed and reproduce than to put it somewhere and make a shrine for a bunch of skinhead Nazis.
在迈阿密击沉那艘船肯定比把它放在某个地方为一群光头党纳粹分子建造一座神殿要好，因为那里对一些鱼类的繁殖和繁殖有好处。
In America we don't believe in that kind of stuff.
在美国，我们不相信那种东西。
So I said, all right.
所以我说，好吧。
It sounds like a good idea to me.
对我来说这听起来是个好主意。
He said, well, what do you want to do with it?
他说，好吧，你想用它做什么？
I said, well, I guess I'll give to you then.
我说，好吧，我想我就给你吧。
He said, you know people are going to offer you more money now that I want it.
他说，你知道，既然我想要，人们就会给你更多的钱。
I said, do we need a contract?
我说，我们需要合同吗？
And he said, you shook my hand.
他说，你握了我的手。
I said, yeah.
我说，是的。
He said, then that's all the contract we need, ain't it?
他说，那这就是我们所需要的合同，不是吗？
And I said, absolutely with me if it's all right with you.
我说，如果你同意的话，当然可以。
This is what is left of Adolf Hitler's once glorious yacht-- rotting wood, rusted steel, broken glass.
这就是阿道夫·希特勒曾经辉煌的游艇所剩下的东西——腐烂的木头、生锈的钢铁、破碎的玻璃。
It's enough, though, to remind a concentration camp survivor of Hitler's evils and to want the boat destroyed.
不过，这足以提醒集中营幸存者希特勒的罪恶，并希望这艘船被摧毁。
That handshake got a lot of press.
那次握手引起了很多媒体的关注。
Jackie Judd from ABC News did a whole story about it.
美国广播公司新闻的杰基·贾德对此做了一个完整的报道。
She explained how Hitler would stroll the decks of the Ostwind with his mistress, Eva Braun, and talked to a couple hollow-eyed Holocaust survivors who seemed to think that this sinking was a good idea.
她解释了希特勒如何与他的情妇爱娃·布劳恩在东风号的甲板上漫步，并与一对眼神空洞的大屠杀幸存者交谈，他们似乎认为这次沉没是个好主意。
Then J.J.
然后 J.J.
got up and shook Abe's hand again, only this time they did it in front of the cameras.
站起来再次与安倍握手，只是这一次他们是在镜头前握手的。
They promised that within the year, Hitler's yacht would be at the bottom of the Miami Harbor, nothing more than a playground for interested marine life.
他们承诺，年内，希特勒的游艇将停泊在迈阿密港的底部，只不过是感兴趣的海洋生物的游乐场。
And this is when the trouble really began.
这就是麻烦真正开始的时候。
Coming up, lawyers, guns, and money, lots and lots of money, neo-Nazi money, in a minute from Public Radio International when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续时，国际公共广播电台一分钟后就会出现律师、枪支和金钱，很多很多的钱，新纳粹的钱。
Its This American Life , I'm Ira Glass.
这就是美国生活，我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today we are devoting our entire program to the story of the boat known as Hitler's yacht.
今天我们的整个节目都致力于讲述这艘被称为希特勒游艇的船的故事。
Alix Spiegel continues the story.
阿利克斯·斯皮格尔继续讲述这个故事。
The market for Hitler and Nazi memorabilia, as far as anyone can tell, is relatively modest, in the millions each year.
据任何人所知，希特勒和纳粹纪念品的市场规模相对较小，每年只有数百万个。
And what dealers of these materials will tell you is that while a small percentage of their business is Nazi sympathizers, the vast bulk of the market is history buffs, the kind of people who can recite every battle in the Civil War.
这些材料的经销商会告诉你，虽然他们的业务中有一小部分是纳粹同情者，但市场上的大部分都是历史爱好者，就是那种能够背诵内战中每场战斗的人。
Hitler's yacht seemed to capture the imagination of these collectors and a lot of other people too, particularly after the boat appeared on television alongside Abe, J.J., and Jackie Judd.
希特勒的游艇似乎抓住了这些收藏家和许多其他人的想象力，特别是当这艘船与安倍晋三、J.J. 和杰基·贾德一起出现在电视上之后。
After that people really started sending letters, telegrams-- I've got boxes of them here-- of some wanting to buy it to preserve it, some thinking it was a good idea to destroy it, some thought they ought to burn it right there.
从那以后，人们真的开始寄信、电报——我这里有一箱箱——有些人想买它来保存它，有些人认为销毁它是个好主意，有些人认为他们应该就地烧掉它。
And there were threats made in every direction.
各个方向都受到了威胁。
There were angry letters from historical preservationists and angrier letters from neo-Nazis.
有来自历史保护主义者的愤怒的信件和来自新纳粹分子的更愤怒的信件。
They're not going to kill you.
他们不会杀你。
But they just say that.
但他们只是这么说。
Nazis are spineless anyway.
纳粹无论如何都是没有骨气的。
They probably could beat up some old woman or something.
他们可能会殴打某个老妇人之类的。
But it's not an easy thing to go kill somebody that's prepared.
但想要杀死一个有准备的人并不是一件容易的事。
And so J.J.
所以 J.J.
got prepared.
准备好了。
He stopped going out at night and refused to meet strangers unless they agreed to meet at his house.
他晚上不再外出，并且拒绝与陌生人见面，除非他们同意在他家见面。
I just changed a few of my habits.
我只是改变了一些习惯。
I didn't eat at the same restaurants.
我没有在同一家餐厅吃饭。
I didn't, like I said, go out in the evenings or meet strangers.
正如我所说，我晚上不出去或见陌生人。
Of course I had fences, dogs, and security, and proper firearms myself.
当然，我自己有栅栏、狗、保安和适当的枪支。
Despite these precautions, there were incidents.
尽管采取了这些预防措施，还是发生了事故。
One of the windows in J.J.'s house was shot out during a midnight drive-by.
J.J. 家的一扇窗户在一次午夜驾车经过时被击中。
And there was a similar attack on his office.
他的办公室也遭受过类似的袭击。
Because J.J.
因为 J.J.
is J.J., these late night shootings didn't really make much of an impression.
是 J.J.，这些深夜枪击事件并没有给人留下太多印象。
In fact, I first learned about the shootings not from J.J.
事实上，我最先了解到枪击事件的不是 J.J.
himself-- he forgot to tell me-- but from his companion, a woman named Linda he's known since he was a teenager.
他自己——他忘了告诉我——而是从他的同伴那里得到的，一个叫琳达的女人，他从十几岁起就认识了。
Of course, Linda didn't seem particularly impressed either.
当然，琳达似乎也没有特别印象深刻。
I recall one particular night, someone drove by his office and shot a gun.
我记得一个特别的晚上，有人开车经过他的办公室并开了枪。
And I said, small caliber.
我说，小口径。
It was just a small caliber.
这只是一个小口径。
It was a .22.
那是 0.22。
It wasn't a big gun.
这不是一把大枪。
Hell, it might have even been one of my neighbors.
天哪，它甚至可能是我的一位邻居。
But they called up and took credit for it.
但他们打电话来并为此功劳。
When somebody shoots one of my windows out, I just move my chair over to another spot in the house and board that window up.
当有人射击我的一扇窗户时，我只需将椅子移到房子的另一个位置，然后用木板将窗户封上。
At this point in our story as events begin to spiral, I'd like to take a moment to point out just how unlikely it is that the Ostwind was actually used by Adolf Hitler.
在我们的故事中，随着事件开始螺旋式上升，我想花点时间指出东风号实际上被阿道夫·希特勒使用的可能性是多么小。
Horace Glass, the man who first brought the boat to J.J.'s dock, not only went broke trying to restore the yacht, he also spent over 20 years collecting information about the Ostwind's history.
第一个将这艘船带到 J.J. 码头的霍勒斯·格拉斯 (Horace Glass) 在修复这艘游艇时不仅破产了，还花了 20 多年的时间收集有关东风号历史的信息。
He hunted down newspaper articles, blueprints.
他寻找报纸文章、蓝图。
He even initiated a correspondence with Nazi architect Albert Speer.
他甚至发起了与纳粹建筑师阿尔伯特·施佩尔的通信。
But the closest he came to proof that the yacht ever felt the weight of Hitler's foot is this: the German shipbuilders who constructed the Ostwind, people who had never met Adolf Hitler themselves, told him that they were told that the boat was very important to the Fuhrer.
但他最接近证明这艘游艇曾经感受到希特勒脚的重量的是：建造东风号的德国造船商，那些从未见过阿道夫·希特勒本人的人告诉他，他们被告知这艘船对元首非常重要。
That's it.
就是这样。
And although the Ostwind was built for Olympic yacht racing, almost immediately after its completion it was painted gray and used in the war effort, mostly hauling stuff back and forth for the German Navy.
尽管东风号是为奥运会帆船比赛而建造的，但几乎在完工后它就被漆成灰色并用于战争，主要是为德国海军来回拖运物品。
So it's hard to imagine that it got much use as a pleasure craft.
因此很难想象它作为游船有如此大的用途。
After going through 50 years of newspaper clippings about the Ostwind, I can tell you this.
在浏览了 50 年来有关东风的剪报后，我可以告诉你这一点。
When the boat arrived in America in the 1940s, it was advertised as the yacht of Admiral Karl Donitz, Commander-in-Chief of the German Navy, a claim which was probably also untrue.
当这艘船于 20 世纪 40 年代抵达美国时，它被宣传为德国海军总司令卡尔·邓尼茨海军上将的游艇，这一说法可能也是不真实的。
Later in the decade, an enterprising Baltimorean dubbed the Ostwind the Nazi yacht and sold tours to visitors in the Baltimore Harbor.
在这十年的后期，一位富有进取心的巴尔的摩人将奥斯特温德号称为纳粹游艇，并向巴尔的摩港的游客出售旅游服务。
So it wasn't until the 1950s that the Ostwind became known as Hitler's yacht, probably for simple commercial reasons.
因此，直到 20 世纪 50 年代，东风号才被称为希特勒的游艇，可能是出于简单的商业原因。
In light of this evidence that the Ostwind was probably not Hitler's yacht, the events which follow are all the more incredible.
鉴于有证据表明东风号可能不是希特勒的游艇，接下来发生的事件就更加令人难以置信。
We started getting inquiries from all over the world.
我们开始收到来自世界各地的询问。
I recall seeing an inquiry fro-- China.
我记得看到过来自中国的询问。
Maine, New York, Tallahassee, Alabama, Mexico, New Mexico, Texas-- we got stacks of cards.
缅因州、纽约州、塔拉哈西州、阿拉巴马州、墨西哥、新墨西哥州、德克萨斯州——我们收到了成堆的卡片。
And it was people who normally I don't think had an interest particularly in ships and sailing.
我认为这些人通常对船舶和航海不感兴趣。
"Dear Mr. Nelson, I talked with you two weeks ago about the abandoned Ostwind.
“亲爱的纳尔逊先生，两周前我曾与您谈论过被遗弃的东风号。
I'm with a nonprofit group called the Keike Enrichment Foundation.
我是一个名为 Keike Enrichment Foundation 的非营利组织的成员。
We put on special programs and events for Hawaii's handicapped children.
我们为夏威夷的残疾儿童举办特别节目和活动。
We just had a Christmas event for the Shriners Hospital down the way.
我们刚刚为圣地兄弟会医院举办了一场圣诞节活动。
There was tons of snow, crushed ice, and a snowman building contest that was really fun.
那里有大量的雪、碎冰，还有一场非常有趣的堆雪人比赛。
Anyway, we're a new organization and thought the Ostwind might make an interesting exhibit for the kids.
不管怎样，我们是一个新组织，并且认为东风博物馆可能会为孩子们举办一个有趣的展览。
Any idea what you're going to do with the boat?
知道你要用这艘船做什么吗？
Please advise."
请指教。”
"Dear Mr. Nelson, I realize that my interest in the Ostwind yacht is probably not unique.
“亲爱的纳尔逊先生，我意识到我对东风游艇的兴趣可能并不是独一无二的。
I'm sure you have plenty of people calling with offers, et cetera.
我确信有很多人打电话来提出报价等等。
But please allow me to make a case for myself.
但请允许我为自己辩护。
My wish to restore the craft is driven by my need for a project to occupy myself during the long illness I have.
我之所以希望修复这艘飞船，是因为我在长期患病期间需要一个项目来充实自己。
I am young, 32, and on social security for the rest of my life.
我还年轻，32 岁，余生靠社会保障生活。
So I thought it would be fun to restore a part of history that could otherwise be lost forever.
所以我认为恢复一段可能永远消失的历史会很有趣。
My funds are low but regular as clockwork.
我的资金很少，但规律得很。
And I promise I will work very, very hard."
我保证我会非常非常努力地工作。”
There were other letters, boxes upon boxes of them stored in the mobile home parked behind J.J.'s house.
J.J. 家后面的活动房屋里还存放着一箱又一箱的其他信件。
They were from people who couldn't understand what all the fuss was about or people who thought that the boat should be burned where it stood.
他们来自那些不明白这一切是怎么回事的人，或者来自那些认为船应该就地烧掉的人。
Every state, every race, every position and policy was represented, usually it was represented emphatically.
每个州、每个种族、每个立场和政策都有代表，通常都是重点代表。
And the violence at the emotions puzzled J.J.
情绪上的暴力让 J.J. 感到困惑。
I mean, I couldn't see how a resting relic of a piece of junk boat could mean so many different things to different people.
我的意思是，我不明白一艘垃圾船的残骸对不同的人来说有这么多不同的意义。
In other words, the Jewish people hated it because it belonged to Adolf Hitler.
换句话说，犹太人讨厌它，因为它属于阿道夫·希特勒。
And they wanted it destroyed and gotten rid of because of some psychological connection of Hitler.
由于希特勒的某种心理联系，他们希望它被摧毁并摆脱。
And the Nazis and the skinheads looked at it as a shrine like a holy place.
纳粹和光头党把它视为圣地一样的圣地。
And it was just a boat.
那只是一艘船。
Then J.J.
然后 J.J.
got another letter.
又收到一封信。
Or actually J.J.'s lawyer got another letter.
或者实际上 J.J. 的律师又收到了一封信。
It was from a neo-Nazi group in the Midwest.
它来自中西部的一个新纳粹组织。
They wanted to buy the Ostwind.
他们想买下东风号。
After I had handshook and gave it to Commissioner Resnick on the deck of the boat in front of ABC News, Jackie Judd, they contacted the lawyer and offered a half a million dollars for the boat.
在我与美国广播公司新闻杰基·贾德前面的船甲板上的雷斯尼克专员握手并将其交给雷斯尼克专员后，他们联系了律师并出价 50 万美元购买这艘船。
And what did you think when you heard that?
当你听到这个消息时，你有什么想法？
Well, half a million dollars is nice to have.
嗯，拥有五十万美元已经很不错了。
But it wasn't that important.
但这并不那么重要。
First of all, I already gave the boat to the Jewish people, Resnick.
首先，我已经把船交给了犹太人雷斯尼克。
So I couldn't go back on my word.
所以我不能食言。
And their idea was you didn't sign any papers.
他们的想法是你没有签署任何文件。
I said, no. But I shook hands with the man.
我说，不。但我和那个人握手了。
And I gave him my word.
我向他保证了。
But the offer created its own problems.
但这一提议也带来了自己的问题。
J.J.'s sister Jackie, owner of the original Jackie's restaurant on Trout River, had died a couple of summers before when the cigarette she was smoking set fire to her bed.
J.J. 的妹妹杰基 (Jackie's) 是特劳特河 (Trout River) 杰基餐厅 (Jackie's Restaurant) 的老板，几年前的夏天，她因抽烟着火而去世。
Her death left the family in debt, a towering mountain of debt, including a sizable bill to the corporate lawyer in charge of her estate.
她的去世让这个家庭负债累累，债台高筑，其中包括欠负责她遗产的公司律师的一大笔账单。
Here's Linda.
这是琳达。
The attorney for her estate actually sued him to try to keep him from giving the boat away.
她的遗产律师实际上起诉了他，试图阻止他放弃这艘船。
He was indignant and mad because I gave away a corporate asset for a half a million dollars for nothing, he said, which was bad business.
他很愤怒，很生气，因为我白白地以五十万美元的价格放弃了公司资产，他说，这是一笔糟糕的生意。
I said, well it's a matter of principle, not so much the money.
我说，这是原则问题，不是钱的问题。
Of course I could have used the money.
当然我可以用这笔钱。
But like I said, I already gave it to the man.
但就像我说的，我已经把它给了那个人。
So I couldn't very well change my mind if I wanted to.
所以如果我愿意的话我也不能改变主意。
Florida Times-Union May 31, 1989.
佛罗里达时报联合报，1989 年 5 月 31 日。
"Hitler's yacht was moved by barge from the Trout River to the Intracoastal Waterway during the weekend and is scheduled to begin its final voyage today.
“周末期间，希特勒的游艇被驳船从鳟鱼河移至近岸水道，并计划于今天开始最后一次航行。
'Finally', said Rabbi Gary Perez of Beth Shalom Congregation in Mandarin.
“终于”，贝斯沙洛姆会众的拉比加里·佩雷斯用普通话说道。
'Hitler's yacht is getting what it deserves."
“希特勒的游艇得到了应有的报应。”
When the boat was being transported to Miami by barge, they had threats-- like at St. Augustine, there's a narrow bridge at 210.
当船被驳船运到迈阿密时，他们受到了威胁——就像在圣奥古斯丁，210 号处有一座窄桥。
And some people called and said they were going to blow it up.
有些人打电话说他们要把它炸掉。
People on the boat were watching.
船上的人都在观看。
It never stopped.
它从未停止过。
It just went day and night straight through in the waterway.
它就这样日夜不停地在水道中穿行。
My lawyer was calling every 15 minutes when the boat was going down the river telling me I was making a terrible mistake.
当船顺流而下时，我的律师每 15 分钟就打电话告诉我，我犯了一个可怕的错误。
And I wouldn't have a pot or a window when he got through.
当他通过时我就没有锅或窗户了。
On June 4, 1989, over 100 people, including 27 survivors of the Voyage of the Damned, boarded a Princess Line cruiser to witness the sinking of the Ostwind yacht.
1989年6月4日，包括27名“诅咒之旅”幸存者在内的100多人登上公主线巡洋舰，目睹了东风号游艇的沉没。
As an airplane passed overhead towing a sign branded with the words "never again", the cruiser set sail.
当一架飞机拖着一个写着“再也不会”的牌子从头顶飞过时，巡洋舰就起航了。
Rabbi Barry Konovitch of the Aventura Turnberry Jewish Center in Miami was at the sinking of the yacht.
迈阿密阿文图拉坦伯利犹太中心的拉比巴里·科诺维奇 (Rabbi Barry Konovitch) 目睹了游艇的沉没。
Was, in fact, one of the event's organizers.
事实上，他是该活动的组织者之一。
He says that the cruiser trolled back and forth in the harbor for about an hour before the sinking.
他说，这艘巡洋舰在沉没前在港口来回拖曳了大约一个小时。
They wanted to give the survivors time to absorb the meaning of the day.
他们想让幸存者有时间吸收这一天的意义。
Then we came to the point where the yacht hove into view.
然后我们就来到了游艇映入眼帘的地方。
And there was an announcement on the loudspeaker by the captain, what was about to happen, that everybody should go out on deck.
船长用扩音器宣布即将发生的事情，每个人都应该到甲板上去。
And all of a sudden, there was a tremendous quiet that settled over the boat.
突然间，船上一片寂静。
Nobody said a word.
没有人说一句话。
And I must tell you that when the moment came for the yacht to be observed and then sunk, one person turned around, and then another person turned around.
而且我必须告诉你，当游艇被观察然后沉没的时刻到来时，一个人转身，然后另一个人转身。
And the entire deck just turned their backs on the ship.
整个甲板上的人都背对着船。
They didn't even want to look at it as a symbolic gesture.
他们甚至不想将其视为一种象征性姿态。
Before the ship went down?
船沉没之前？
Rabbi Barry Konovitch As it was about to go down.
拉比巴里·科诺维奇 当它即将下降时。
And I don't remember any cheering.
我不记得有任何欢呼声。
I just remember the silence.
我只记得沉默。
And why do you think that they did that?
你认为他们为什么这么做？
They wanted to demonstrate rather graphically their revulsion at the Nazis and at Nazism.
他们想以生动的方式表达他们对纳粹和纳粹主义的厌恶。
And this was the symbol that represented Nazism to them at that moment.
这就是当时对他们来说代表纳粹主义的象征。
And it wasn't choreographed or anything?
这不是精心设计的吗？
Not at all.
一点也不。
It was just an amazing thing.
这真是一件了不起的事情。
Spontaneous.
自发的。
Spontaneous disgust.
自发的厌恶。
Rabbi Barry Konovitch Yes.
巴里·科诺维奇拉比 是的。
Abe Resnick died in 1998.
阿贝·雷斯尼克于 1998 年去世。
But I talked to his son, Jimmy Resnick, who attended the ceremony with his mother.
但我采访了他的儿子吉米·雷斯尼克（Jimmy Resnick），他和母亲一起参加了仪式。
It sank.
它沉没了。
Everybody threw flowers or lilies or whatever into the ocean.
每个人都把鲜花、百合花或其他什么东西扔进海里。
And everybody started screaming.
每个人都开始尖叫。
I believe, then, we went into a rendition of-- I believe if I'm not mistaken-- the Hatikva and then the National Anthem.
我相信，然后，我们开始演奏——如果我没记错的话——《Hatikva》，然后是国歌。
And people started to sing and started to hug each other.
人们开始唱歌并开始互相拥抱。
And it was very touching, very very touching.
这非常感人，非常非常感人。
J.J., whose travel arrangements and suite at the Fontainebleau Hotel in Miami were provided free of charge, says he enjoyed his afternoon with the survivors.
J.J. 的旅行安排和迈阿密枫丹白露酒店的套房都是免费提供的，他说他很享受与幸存者在一起的下午。
He was the hero, the man who had made the right choice.
他是英雄，是做出了正确选择的人。
They were thanking me and telling me I did the right thing, and there should be more people like me that had put principle before money.
他们感谢我，告诉我我做了正确的事，应该有更多像我这样把原则放在金钱之上的人。
Of course I was crying out of one eye and laughing out of the other.
当然，我一只眼睛在哭，另一只眼睛在笑。
What do you mean by that?
你这是什么意思？
J.j.
J.j.
Nelson Well, you know, there's $500,000 going down the pipe there.
尼尔森：嗯，你知道，那里有 50 万美元。
And you always have second thoughts even though I wouldn't have taken the money.
即使我不会拿钱，你也总是会三思而后行。
But it's something to think of when somebody is reminding you every hour.
但当有人每小时提醒你时，这是值得考虑的事情。
Abe Resnick also apparently enjoyed the day.
阿贝·雷斯尼克显然也很享受这一天。
His son, Jimmy, says he was elated.
他的儿子吉米说他很高兴。
I remember vividly what my father had said and what everybody had said was this will finally be the end of it.
我清楚地记得我父亲说过的话，每个人都说过的话，这件事终于要结束了。
After this, that's it.
在此之后，就这样了。
Nothing will come back to haunt us.
没有什么会回来困扰我们。
As I said, I went down to Jacksonville to visit J.J.
正如我所说，我去杰克逊维尔拜访了 J.J.
and we spent two days in his truck driving around.
我们在他的卡车里开了两天。
There was no particular plan to our driving.
我们的驾驶没有特别的计划。
I had mentioned that I wanted a tour of the city.
我曾提到过我想要游览这座城市。
And so J.J.
所以 J.J.
gave me one.
给了我一个。
He showed me the Northside of town, where rich people lived in Spanish mansions with water views.
他带我参观了城镇的北区，那里的富人住在西班牙豪宅里，可以看到水景。
Then he drove me down to the neighborhood where the Ostwind had spent its last days, to the dock he didn't own anymore.
然后他开车送我到东风号度过最后几天的街区，到他不再拥有的码头。
Over the 12 years since the sinking a lot had changed.
自沉没以来的 12 年里，发生了很多变化。
J.J.'s house had burned down.
J.J.的房子被烧毁了。
And the popular seafood restaurant his sister had owned was closed and just beginning to crumble.
他姐姐开的那家颇受欢迎的海鲜餐厅也关门了，而且刚刚开始崩溃。
J.J.
J.J.
pulled into the lot next to his old place, a small junky yard filled with rusted cars and boats of all shapes and sizes.
车停在他老家旁边的停车场，一个小垃圾场，堆满了生锈的汽车和各种形状和大小的船只。
There was a little girl playing in the yard, dragging a long jumprope back and forth in the dust.
院子里有一个小女孩在玩耍，拖着一根长长的跳绳在尘土里来回走动。
There was also a man who looked like her father, 30, maybe 35, with his jeans hanging low on his body and his hands covered in boat grease.
还有一个看起来像她父亲的男人，30岁，也许35岁，牛仔裤低垂在身上，双手沾满船油。
J.J.
J.J.
pulled alongside this man and rolled down his window.
拉到这个男人旁边，摇下车窗。
I want to pull over on the other side where the fire station is going to be built, show the little lady some of this stuff if you don't mind.
我想把车停在要建消防站的另一边，如果你不介意的话，给这位小女士看一些这些东西。
Soon J.J.
很快，J.J.
and the man fell to talking-- about the weather, about nothing in particular.
那人开始谈论天气，没有什么特别的话题。
Then J.J.
然后 J.J.
mentioned that he used to own the next lot.
提到他曾经拥有下一批。
And the man nodded his head.
那人点了点头。
He said he remembered J.J.
他说他记得 J.J.
and mentioned the boat that used to sit in the yard.
并提到了曾经停在院子里的那艘船。
No, you gave it to me.
不，是你给我的。
Alix Spiegel The man said he took the wood in the Ostwind's last days when its death was all but certain.
阿利克斯·斯皮格尔（Alix Spiegel） 此人说，他在东风号的最后几天拿走了这块木头，当时它的死亡几乎是确定的。
He said by the time he got to it most of the interesting stuff, the portholes, for example, had already been stripped away by more enterprising souvenir hunters and he had grabbed what he could.
他说，当他找到大部分有趣的东西时，例如舷窗，已经被更有进取心的纪念品猎人抢走了，而他已经抓住了他能抓住的东西。
It was just Hitler's boat over there.
那边只是希特勒的船。
And everybody wanted a piece of it.
每个人都想分一杯羹。
So I went over and got me my piece of it.
所以我走过去拿了我的那一份。
It was a piece of teak off the deck.
这是甲板上的一块柚木。
Where do you keep the little piece of teak now?
你现在把那小块柚木放在哪里？
Do you know?
你知道吗？
I think it's in the trunk of that car right there.
我想它就在那辆车的后备箱里。
Really?
真的吗？
Jacksonville Neighbor Yes, I think so.
杰克逊维尔邻居 是的，我想是的。
Can we see it?
我们能看到吗？
Jacksonville Neighbor If I can get my trunk open, you can see.
杰克逊维尔邻居 如果我能打开我的后备箱，你就能看到。
Which one are you in?
你属于哪一类？
Jacksonville Neighbor I'm in that little Mustang.
杰克逊维尔邻居 我在那辆小野马里。
The lock is broken on it.
上面的锁坏了。
It might be lying in the back.
它可能躺在后面。
You want me to look around?
你要我四处看看吗？
The teak wasn't in the backseat.
柚木不在后座。
It was in the trunk.
它在后备箱里。
And there was no way to get it out.
而且没有办法把它取出来。
But I didn't mind much.
但我并不太介意。
At the time, I thought this was just a pretty piece of coincidence, some dumb luck without any real significance, kind of funny actually.
当时，我认为这只是一个相当巧合的事情，一些没有任何实际意义的运气，实际上有点有趣。
I didn't realize it was the beginning of a pattern, that at almost every stop in Jacksonville, we would find some remnant or echo of Hitler's yacht stored away in car trunks or kitchen cabinets, wrapped in cloth, and laid carefully alongside family silver.
我没有意识到这是一种模式的开始，在杰克逊维尔的几乎每一站，我们都会发现一些希特勒游艇的残余物或回声，它们被存放在汽车后备箱或厨房橱柜中，用布包裹起来，并小心地与家庭银器放在一起。
After the man in the boatyard, there was Howard, a wrinkled old man who showed me the wood from the deck of the Ostwind he'd stored in one of his outbuildings.
在造船厂的那个人之后，是霍华德，一位满脸皱纹的老人，他向我展示了他存放在他的一座附属建筑中的东风号甲板上的木材。
He told me he didn't believe that Hitler was ever on the boat but had decided to keep the wood anyway.
他告诉我，他不相信希特勒曾经在船上，但无论如何他决定保留这些木头。
Hey, Hey.
嘿，嘿。
How you doing?
你好吗？
Alix Spiegel J.J.
阿利克斯·斯皮格尔 J.J.
and Walter had known each other for a long time, ever since Walter was a kid and worked on J.J.'s dock.
自从沃尔特还是个孩子、在 J.J. 的码头工作以来，他和沃尔特就认识很久了。
When we drove up he was out front draining the oil from a car parked in his driveway.
当我们开车过去时，他正在前面从停在他车道上的汽车中排出机油。
But as soon as he spied us, he marched out to the street and asked me what I was doing with a tape recorder in my lap.
但他一发现我们，就大步走到街上，问我腿上放着录音机在做什么。
When I told him I was talking to people about Hitler's yacht, he smiled and said he had a funny story about that.
当我告诉他我正在和人们谈论希特勒的游艇时，他微笑着说他有一个有趣的故事。
Yeah, I went to a garage sale I guess about maybe a month ago.
是的，我猜大约一个月前我去了一次车库拍卖会。
And the strangest thing happened at the garage sale.
最奇怪的事情发生在车库拍卖会上。
I noticed this dish sitting up there.
我注意到这道菜放在那里。
And the guy said, I cannot tell you who owned the dish.
那个人说，我不能告诉你这道菜是谁的。
But it came off the Ostwind.
但它来自东风。
The lady that donated to the church the particular item, her dad worked on the Ostwind as one of Hitler's servants.
这位向教堂捐赠特殊物品的女士，她的父亲作为希特勒的仆人之一在东风号工作。
Did you get the dish?
你拿到菜了吗？
Walter I've got the dish.
沃尔特 我已经拿到了菜。
I'm hanging on to it.
我坚持下去。
Walter disappeared into the house and returned carrying a small bowl.
沃尔特消失在屋子里，带着一个小碗回来了。
It had a top with a decorated handle and a trim of braided metal a dirty yellowish color.
它的顶部带有装饰手柄和一条肮脏的淡黄色编织金属饰边。
That's gold and that's gold.
那是金子，那是金子。
To check it I went ahead and put acid.
为了检查它，我继续放了酸。
Because gold will not deteriorate under acid.
因为黄金在酸的作用下不会变质。
If it's fake gold, the acid will eat it up.
如果是假金，酸会腐蚀它。
But this right here, I put acid on that and that, sulfuric acid, and nothing happened.
但就在这里，我在上面放了酸，硫酸，什么也没发生。
Walter held the bowl up with both hands so we could get a good look at it.
沃尔特用双手举起碗，以便我们可以仔细观察它。
It twinkled and shimmered a little in the late afternoon light.
它在午后的阳光下闪烁着一点。
And it was clear from the proud way he held it high in the air that Walter believed the dish was authentic.
从沃尔特将菜高高举起的自豪方式可以明显看出，沃尔特相信这道菜是正宗的。
I, on the other hand, wasn't so sure, especially after he told me he'd only paid $3 for it.
另一方面，我不太确定，尤其是在他告诉我他只花了 3 美元之后。
But I was going to have it checked out to see if it was authentic.
但我还是想去看看是不是正品。
But I have ideas it's authentic.
但我有想法它是真实的。
See the thing on the back?
看到后面的东西了吗？
I was going to take it to an antique dealer and see what he said about it.
我打算把它带到一个古董商那里，看看他对此有何评论。
After four months of research, I called Rabbi Konovitch, the man who helped Abe Resnick organize the sinking of the Ostwind, and told him I believed that Hitler's yacht was a fraud.
经过四个月的研究，我打电话给拉比·科诺维奇（Rabbi Konovitch），他是帮助阿贝·雷斯尼克组织击沉东风号的人，并告诉他我相信希特勒的游艇是一个骗局。
I explained the boat's history and made clear I thought that the Ostwind had gotten the name Hitler's yacht because one of its owners realized the name would add to its mystique and value.
我解释了这艘船的历史，并明确表示我认为东风号之所以被称为希特勒的游艇，是因为它的一位主人意识到这个名字会增加它的神秘感和价值。
I see, interesting.
我明白了，有趣。
Alix Spiegel So my question for you is does that change your feelings about whether or not the yacht should've been sunk?
阿利克斯·斯皮格尔（Alix Spiegel）所以我想问你的问题是，这是否会改变你对游艇是否应该沉没的看法？
Not at all, because it was merely a symbol to begin with.
完全不是，因为它本来就只是一个象征。
Well, a symbol is very powerful.
嗯，符号的力量非常强大。
It doesn't make any difference whether it's historically valid as long as it's a symbol.
只要它是一个符号，它在历史上是否有效并不重要。
So for the setting, for the moment, that symbolized Hitler's regime and its destruction.
因此，就目前而言，这象征着希特勒政权及其毁灭。
I had expected a different reaction-- anger, disbelief, or outrage that the survivors had been duped, perhaps even some kind of remorse.
我原以为会有不同的反应——愤怒、怀疑，或者对幸存者被欺骗感到愤怒，甚至可能是某种悔恨。
I certainly didn't expect amusement and indifference, didn't expect the rabbi wouldn't care.
我当然没想到会是逗乐和冷漠，没想到拉比不会在意。
But he was unequivocal.
但他的态度很明确。
It didn't make any difference to him that the yacht wasn't real.
这艘游艇是不是真的，对他来说没有任何区别。
The point, after all, was that the yacht had become a gathering ground for Hitler lovers and misdirected neo-Nazis.
毕竟，关键在于这艘游艇已成为希特勒爱好者和误导的新纳粹分子的聚集地。
Once these people embraced the fantasy of Hitler's yacht, there was no turning back.
一旦这些人接受了希特勒游艇的幻想，就没有回头路了。
The Ostwind would be sunk, and its sinking as meaningful as if it were the real thing.
东风号将会沉没，而它的沉没就像真实的沉没一样有意义。
There's a biblical injunction about destroying entirely evil because if you don't it comes back to haunt you.
圣经中有一条关于彻底消灭邪恶的禁令，因为如果你不这样做，它就会回来困扰你。
The rabbi told me that he thought all Nazi materials, real or fake, should meet the same end as Hitler's yacht.
拉比告诉我，他认为所有纳粹材料，无论是真还是假，都应该与希特勒的游艇有同样的结局。
Then he suggested that I read the biblical story of the Amalekites.
然后他建议我读一下圣经中亚玛力人的故事。
He thought it might give me some perspective.
他认为这可能会给我一些视角。
Like the Nazis, the Amalekites sought the eradication and enslavement of the Jewish people.
像纳粹一样，亚玛力人寻求消灭和奴役犹太人。
They met often in the open desert for battle.
他们经常在开阔的沙漠中相遇进行战斗。
And when the Israelites won one of these fights, there was an absolute rule governing their behavior.
当以色列人赢得其中一场战斗时，他们的行为就有了绝对的规则。
They were instructed to obliterate any and all items which might have been captured in the heat of battle.
他们被指示销毁在激烈的战斗中可能捕获的所有物品。
Everything-- trinkets, jewelry, gold, silver-- anything that the Amalekites revered was to be destroyed, even if its acquisition might profit the Jewish victors or help them in their future battles.
一切——小饰品、珠宝、黄金、白银——任何亚玛力人所崇敬的东西都将被摧毁，即使它的获得可能会给犹太胜利者带来好处，或者在他们未来的战斗中帮助他们。
I think it's like touching poison.
我觉得这就像接触毒药一样。
It has to rub off on you either consciously or unconsciously.
它必须有意识或无意识地影响你。
That's dangerous.
那很危险。
So after I talked to the rabbi, I called Walter back.
所以在我和拉比交谈之后，我给沃尔特回了电话。
I wanted to see if he was being poisoned by evil, corrupted by the presence of the $3 bowl he stored on the shelf in his bedroom.
我想看看他是否受到了邪恶的毒害，是否被他卧室架子上那只价值 3 美元的碗所腐蚀。
I asked Walter why he wanted the dish, if it was simply the drama of celebrity which excited him, any celebrity, or if his interest was more specific, if there was something about Hitler in particular.
我问沃尔特为什么想要这道菜，是否只是名人的戏剧让他兴奋，任何名人，或者他的兴趣是否更具体，是否有特别关于希特勒的事情。
Do you think you'd rather have a dish from Hitler or from John F.
您认为您更愿意吃希特勒的菜还是约翰·F·肯尼迪的菜？
Kennedy?
肯尼迪？
Oh boy.
噢，孩子。
Well, I think you'd get more value out of the one that Hitler had, as far as the monetary value.
好吧，我认为就货币价值而言，你会从希特勒拥有的东西中获得更多价值。
How about, would you rather have a dish from Hitler or from FDR?
怎么样，您想吃希特勒的菜还是罗斯福的菜？
Oh boy.
噢，孩子。
I think I'd rather have it from Hitler to be honest with you.
老实说，我想我宁愿从希特勒那里得到它。
FDR wasn't all that wise.
罗斯福并不是那么明智。
Hitler was a pretty smart guy.
希特勒是一个非常聪明的人。
You know, Einstein and him were side by side with intelligence, I believe.
我相信，你知道，爱因斯坦和他在智力上并驾齐驱。
I've got one more of these questions.
我还有一个这样的问题。
Would you rather have a dish from Churchill or from Hitler?
您想吃丘吉尔的菜还是希特勒的菜？
Do you think that Hitler is cooler than FDR?
你认为希特勒比罗斯福酷吗？
He was kind of an outlaw.
他有点像一个亡命之徒。
Maybe that's what I like about him.
也许这就是我喜欢他的地方。
I don't know.
我不知道。
But I think Hitler was cooler.
但我认为希特勒更酷。
And do you think that Hitler was cooler than Kennedy?
你认为希特勒比肯尼迪酷吗？
Well, Kennedy was born with what they call a silver spoon in his mouth.
嗯，肯尼迪是含着金汤匙出生的。
Adolf Hitler wasn't.
阿道夫·希特勒不是。
It could be, yeah.
可能是的，是的。
Kennedy never had to work an honest day in his life.
肯尼迪一生中从未需要诚实地工作过一天。
Whereas Hitler had to work every day of his life.
而希特勒一生中的每一天都必须工作。
Kennedy did some stuff that I didn't necessarily approve of, like his being an infidel.
肯尼迪做了一些我不一定赞同的事情，比如他是一个异教徒。
He was not very true to his wife.
他对妻子不太忠诚。
He just philandered around.
他只是到处打情骂俏。
Adolf Hitler didn't philander.
阿道夫·希特勒不花心。
He was just a true guy, you know, my kind of guy.
他是一个真正的人，你知道，我喜欢的人。
Well, I didn't agree with that part of him.
嗯，我不同意他的这一点。
He didn't have to do that.
他不必那么做。
He didn't have to kill them.
他没有必要杀掉他们。
He could have put them in slave camps and just let them be.
他本可以把他们关进奴隶营，然后就让他们去吧。
But to actually exterminate people, that is wrong.
但真正要消灭人，那就错了。
Do you think that people are more attracted to evil or more attracted to good?
你认为人们更容易被邪恶所吸引还是更容易被善良所吸引？
Depends on the person.
取决于人。
Alix Spiegel Do you think that evil is more exciting than good?
阿利克斯·斯皮格尔 你认为邪恶比正义更令人兴奋吗？
Oh boy.
噢，孩子。
You would have to drag that up.
你必须把它拖起来。
Well, the majority of people are good.
嗯，大多数人都是善良的。
Let's put it that way.
这么说吧。
I think the majority of people want to do good.
我认为大多数人都想做好事。
I try to do good.
我努力做好事。
I go out of my way to be good.
我竭尽全力做好人。
But I do have, I guess you could say, a bad part about me.
但我想你可能会说，我确实有不好的一面。
Walter works full-time as a lineman for the electric company.
沃尔特在电力公司担任全职巡线员。
On weekends he goes fishing.
周末他去钓鱼。
He also enjoys fixing cars and long visits with his family.
他还喜欢修理汽车和与家人一起长期探访。
Now Walter is not a neo-Nazi nor is he a fascist.
现在沃尔特既不是新纳粹分子，也不是法西斯分子。
If you ask Walter to explain his fascination with Hitler, he won't talk about Hitler's politics, he'll talk about Hitler's power, that Hitler could quote, "do whatever he wanted."
如果你让沃尔特解释他对希特勒的迷恋，他不会谈论希特勒的政治，他会谈论希特勒的权力，希特勒可以引用，“做他想做的事”。
Fascinating about Hitler?
对希特勒着迷吗？
Alix Spiegel Yes.
阿利克斯·斯皮格尔 是的。
Well, when you think about what he did, look at the people that he organized just on a whim.
好吧，当你思考他所做的事情时，看看他只是一时兴起组织的人。
He had a million soldiers just like that come up that believed in his views.
他有一百万这样的士兵相信他的观点。
And how one man can dictate someone's life like that and just get all these people to believe in him and actually go fight a war.
一个人如何能够像这样主宰别人的生活，并让所有这些人相信他并真正去打一场战争。
Walter keeps the bowl locked in his bedroom, hidden from thieves, but positioned so that each night when he goes to bed he has a view of it from his pillow.
沃尔特把碗锁在他的卧室里，以防被小偷发现，但他的位置是这样的，每天晚上睡觉时，他都能从枕头上看到它。
He doesn't show it to people because, he says, he doesn't want to cause trouble between the races.
他没有向人们展示它，因为他说，他不想在种族之间造成麻烦。
Walter doesn't want to upset anyone.
沃尔特不想让任何人不高兴。
He just likes being close to the dish he believes is a little piece of history.
他只是喜欢靠近这道菜，他认为这是一段历史。
To me it's kind of intriguing that I own something that he actually had in his possession.
对我来说，我拥有他实际上拥有的东西，这有点有趣。
He might have eaten soup out of this stupid bowl.
他可能是从这个愚蠢的碗里喝汤的。
I don't know.
我不知道。
It's just something that not everybody has.
这只是不是每个人都拥有的东西。
I mean, do you have a bowl form Hitler?
我是说，你有希特勒的碗吗？
I suggested to Walter that the Ostwind wasn't actually Hitler's yacht.
我向沃尔特建议，东风号实际上并不是希特勒的游艇。
I told him I believed that Hitler had never actually set foot on the boat.
我告诉他我相信希特勒从未真正踏上这艘船。
Well, now I heard he was on it.
好吧，现在我听说他正在这么做。
And when I was in history class, I remember seeing pictures of him on the Ostwind.
当我上历史课时，我记得看到他在东风号上的照片。
Oh really?
哦真的吗？
Walter Yeah, I remember seeing a vessel.
沃尔特 是的，我记得看到一艘船。
I wonder what Hitler would think now if he knew I had his bowl.
我不知道如果希特勒知道我拿着他的碗，他现在会怎么想。
Do you ever think about that?
你有想过吗？
Walter Yeah.
沃尔特 是的。
And what do you think?
你觉得怎么样？
Walter How does this grab you, man?
沃尔特 这对你有什么吸引力，伙计？
You were on the ship.
你当时在船上。
Your boat is out in the ocean sunk in like 250 feet of water.
您的船在大海中，沉入 250 英尺深的水中。
And I've got the bowl off of it from a guy that you gave it to on the boat.
我从你在船上送给他的一个人那里得到了这个碗。
I got it from his daughter.
我从他女儿那里得到的。
I mean, when you think about it, it's really fascinating.
我的意思是，当你想到这一点时，它真的很有趣。
What's fascinating is at the end of the day, it didn't really matter to anyone involved with the Ostwind whether or not the boat or any of the material that came off the boat was real.
令人着迷的是，归根结底，对于参与东风号的任何人来说，这艘船或船上掉落的任何材料是否真实并不重要。
Both those who reviled Hitler and those who worshipped him had agreed to play out their passions on this half-rotted sailboat.
无论是谩骂希特勒的人，还是崇拜希特勒的人，都同意在这艘半腐烂的帆船上发挥自己的激情。
And in doing that, they made the question of its authenticity obsolete.
通过这样做，他们就不再质疑其真实性了。
They didn't bother, didn't want really, to think about the possibility that the boat in question was a fraud.
他们没有费心，也不想真正去考虑有问题的船是一艘骗局的可能性。
The battle they felt they were fighting was too important.
他们觉得自己正在进行的这场战斗太重要了。
And when confronted with evidence that it was a hoax, one side resolutely denied its reality.
当面对证据证明这是一场骗局时，一方坚决否认其现实。
The other simply didn't seem to care.
另一个人似乎根本不在乎。
And that's where this story ends, this biography of an extended collective fantasy with one postscript.
这就是这个故事的结局，这是一部带有后记的扩展集体幻想的传记。
J.J.
J.J.
told me that months after the yacht was scuttled, people continued to write.
告诉我，游艇沉没几个月后，人们仍在继续写作。
Many wrote wondering where precisely the boat had been sunk.
许多人写信想知道这艘船到底沉没在哪里。
It seems they wanted to fish it out and stage a resurrection.
看来他们是想把它捞出来然后复活。
J.J., of course, wouldn't say.
J.J.当然不会说。
He told all comers that the yacht was nothing but, and here I quote, "a pain in the ass that made an excellent fishing reef."
他告诉所有来访者，这艘游艇只不过是——我在这里引用的话——“一个令人痛苦的地方，却成了一个绝佳的钓鱼暗礁。”
It made an excellent fishing reef.
它成为了绝佳的钓鱼礁石。
It's probably just one big barnacle now.
现在它可能只是一只大藤壶了。
Alix Spiegel, she's a mental health reporter for National Public Radio.
阿利克斯·斯皮格尔（Alix Spiegel）是国家公共广播电台的心理健康记者。
Her story was part of a series called the America Project.
她的故事是“美国计划”系列的一部分。
She got funding from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.
她从公共广播公司获得了资助。
Our program was produced today by Alex Blumberg and me with Wendy Dorr, Jonathan Goldstein, and Starlee Kine, senior producer Julie Snyder, production help form Todd Bachmann, Laura Bellows and Paul McCarthy.
今天我们的节目由亚历克斯·布隆伯格（Alex Blumberg）和我、温迪·多尔（Wendy Dorr）、乔纳森·戈德斯坦（Jonathan Goldstein）和斯塔莉·凯恩（Starlee Kine）共同制作，高级制片人朱莉·斯奈德（Julie Snyder）以及托德·巴赫曼（Todd Bachmann）、劳拉·贝洛斯（Laura Bellows）和保罗·麦卡锡（Paul McCarthy）的制作帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] You can download today's program at our archives at audible.com/thisamericanlife.
[鸣谢] 您可以在我们的档案库 audible.com/thisamericanlife 下载今天的节目。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
WBEZ management oversight for our program by Mr. Torey Malatia, who explains why he can't meet with you.
Torey Malatia 先生对我们的项目进行 WBEZ 管理监督，他解释了为什么他不能与您会面。
My wife is a millionaire.
我的妻子是百万富翁。
She's a nymphomaniac.
她是个花痴。
And she's an alcoholic.
她是个酒鬼。
And it's all I can do to handle her.
我能做的就是对付她。
I can't put up with you.
我无法忍受你。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。