18: Liars - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #18 | November 1, 2002 18: Liars Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 18 集 | 2002 年 11 月 1 日 18：骗子 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
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Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
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Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
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Act One: Lies Ira Glass You know, if you think about it, the idea of April Fools' Day is just absurd, a day set aside in which we're allowed, basically, to admit that it's fun to deceive each other.
第一幕：谎言 Ira Glass 你知道，如果你仔细想想，愚人节的想法简直是荒谬的，在这一天我们基本上可以承认互相欺骗是很有趣的。
This notion, this idea, is so profoundly disturbing that we have to quarantine it into its own day on April 1.
这个想法、这个想法是如此令人深感不安，以至于我们不得不将其隔离到 4 月 1 日这一天。
But April Fools' Day is for amateurs.
但愚人节是业余爱好者的节日。
The biggest liars, the most disturbing liars are the people who lose their grip on what the truth is and cannot even tell they're lying.
最大的骗子、最令人不安的骗子是那些不知道真相是什么、甚至无法辨别自己在撒谎的人。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today on our program, with April Fools' Day approaching, an hour of stories about deceptions perpetrated by compulsive liars.
今天，随着愚人节的临近，我们的节目将播放一个小时的关于强迫性说谎者实施欺骗的故事。
Portions of these stories have aired on NPR'S Morning Edition years ago.
这些故事的部分内容几年前已在 NPR 早间版上播出。
They get replayed here on Chicago's public radio station every April 1.
每年 4 月 1 日，芝加哥公共广播电台都会重播这些节目。
Our contributing editor Margy Rochlin and I produced them.
我们的特约编辑 Margy Rochlin 和我制作了它们。
Margy narrates.
玛吉叙述道。
I've been talking to a lot of people about liars lately.
最近我和很多人谈论了骗子。
Here are two things I've noticed.
这是我注意到的两件事。
One is that everyone has a story about some nut in their past, not just a liar but a compulsive liar, somebody who told so many incredible stories about themselves that eventually people came to wonder if the liar even knew what was real.
一是每个人都有一个关于他们过去的某个疯子的故事，不仅仅是一个骗子，而且是一个强迫性的骗子，一个讲述了许多关于自己的令人难以置信的故事的人，最终人们开始怀疑这个骗子是否知道什么是真实的。
The other thing I noticed is how vividly people remember these stories.
我注意到的另一件事是人们对这些故事的记忆是多么生动。
Maybe it's because something so basic was violated by the lies, some basic trust.
也许是因为谎言侵犯了一些最基本的东西，一些基本的信任。
They remember the details because they're still trying to sort it out.
他们记得细节，因为他们仍在努力解决问题。
He didn't have an affect that hinted at the desire for me to believe it.
他没有表现出想要让我相信这一点的情绪。
They were like this blue-gray, but they changed color.
它们就像是蓝灰色的，但它们改变了颜色。
He had an affect that said, I believe this.
他有一种情绪说，我相信这一点。
You could never tell he was lying by his eyes.
你永远无法从他的眼睛看出他在说谎。
He was so sincere.
他是那么真诚。
She had shark-like eyes.
她有一双鲨鱼般的眼睛。
Woman He is a very charming person, and I think a lot of compulsive liars are charming people.
女人他是一个非常有魅力的人，我认为很多强迫性说谎者都是有魅力的人。
Sharp teeth.
锋利的牙齿。
Woman I mean, I think that he believed everything he told you.
女人，我是说，我认为他相信他告诉你的一切。
He passionately, firmly believed.
他满怀热情、坚定地相信。
When she laughed, her eyes didn't laugh.
当她笑的时候，她的眼睛没有笑。
Her whole face laughed, and she made the sounds of laughing.
她整张脸都在笑，而且还发出笑声。
But she herself didn't laugh.
但她自己却没有笑。
Sometimes you know you're being lied to, but at first, you don't take it that seriously.
有时你知道自己被骗了，但一开始你并没有把它当回事。
You rationalize to yourself that everyone has their eccentricities.
你对自己合理化说每个人都有自己的怪癖。
Maybe this is a temporary condition.
也许这只是暂时的情况。
Maybe they're just troubled.
也许他们只是感到困扰。
Maybe you can help them.
也许你可以帮助他们。
People kept saying to me, this guy's this.
人们一直对我说，这家伙就是这样。
This guy's that.
这家伙就是这样的。
This guy's this.
这家伙就是这个
Can't you see that?
你看不到吗？
And I was so busy protecting him that I said, OK, I'll show you what a good guy this is.
我忙着保护他，所以我说，好吧，我会让你看看这是一个多么好的人。
I'll marry him.
我会嫁给他。
We went out, and we were together for a couple of years before we got married.
我们出去了，在结婚前我们在一起了几年。
And he would tell me these things, and things just kept not adding up.
他会告诉我这些事情，但事情却一直没有进展。
One of the instances that I can think of is that one day, my ex-husband came over.
我能想到的例子之一是有一天，我的前夫过来了。
And he was crying, and he said that he was really upset.
他哭了，他说他真的很难过。
And he told me that his mother had died.
他告诉我他的母亲去世了。
And I gave him tea and sympathy for weeks.
我连续几个星期给他喝茶并表示同情。
We didn't even really leave the house.
我们甚至没有真正离开家。
Then he moved in with me, and we started getting letters from where I knew his mother lived with his mother's initials on it.
然后他搬来和我住在一起，我们开始收到从我知道他母亲住的地方寄来的信，上面写着他母亲名字的首字母。
And he said, well, my mother had nine brothers and sisters, and this is coming from my aunt.
他说，好吧，我母亲有九个兄弟姐妹，这是我姨妈说的。
And my aunt has exactly the same initials that my mother had.
我姨妈的姓名首字母和我母亲的姓名首字母一模一样。
And one day, I just opened one of those letters.
有一天，我刚刚打开其中一封信。
And I read it.
我读了它。
It was like, "Dear son." And it didn't say, "Dear son, I'm writing to you from my grave." "Dear son, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
就像是“亲爱的儿子”。它并没有说：“亲爱的儿子，我在坟墓里给你写信。” “亲爱的儿子，巴拉，巴拉，巴拉，巴拉，巴拉。
Love, Mom." Hmm, this is interesting.
爱你，妈妈。”嗯，这很有趣。
What about these letters?
这些信怎么办？
"Well, these letters were written to me before she died." "Oh!
“嗯，这些信是她去世前写给我的。” “哦！
She postmarked them from purgatory, wherever she is."
无论她身在何处，她都会在它们上盖上来自炼狱的邮戳。”
Oh, boy.
哦，男孩。
He would get these boxes from somebody back east.
他会从东部的某个人那里得到这些盒子。
And he said, this is somebody who was very close to me.
他说，这是一个与我非常亲近的人。
But then getting nosier, nosier, nosier, I found a letter from her, because you can't hide everything.
但后来变得越来越吵闹，越来越吵闹，越来越吵闹，我发现了她的一封信，因为你无法隐藏一切。
And here was this woman who said that in fact she was his wife.
这个女人说她实际上是他的妻子。
And how was he doing, and she was worried about him, and when was he going to come see her.
他怎么样了，她很担心他，他什么时候来看她。
And then he disappeared.
然后他就消失了。
Then he showed up again.
然后他又出现了。
And he said that he had been involved with the mob and that he had to get out of it, and he really wanted to clean up his act.
他说他与暴徒有牵连，他必须摆脱困境，他真的很想洗清自己的行为。
And I knew that he wasn't smart enough to be involved with them.
我知道他不够聪明，无法参与其中。
But in fact, where did he go?
但事实上，他到底去哪儿了？
And I wouldn't hear from him, and I wouldn't hear from him.
我不会收到他的消息，也不会收到他的消息。
I was becoming more and more worried and more and more concerned.
我越来越担心，越来越担心。
And I felt like he had somehow been victimized and that was what was making him tell these lies.
我觉得他不知何故成为了受害者，这就是他说出这些谎言的原因。
And he showed up with nothing.
而他却什么也没有出现。
A few weeks later, he got a box from the woman in Maine.
几周后，他从缅因州的一位女士那里收到了一个盒子。
And there were some of the clothes that he had left with.
还有一些他留下的衣服。
Hmm, this is interesting.
嗯，这很有趣。
You tell me you're in Chicago trying to get out of being with the mob, and they have you locked in a room.
你告诉我你在芝加哥试图摆脱与暴徒的关系，他们把你锁在一个房间里。
Well, he said that this woman was like a mafia princess.
嗯，他说这个女人就像黑手党公主。
[LAUGHS] Which I really thought was perfect.
[笑]我真的认为这是完美的。
Married to the mob.
嫁给了暴民。
Real life.
现实生活。
And that she would go to Maine to buy clothes, and her father was wealthy.
还说她会去缅因州买衣服，而她的父亲很有钱。
I don't know.
我不知道。
The story was so cockamamie.
这个故事太可笑了。
And I thought, if you're a mafia princess, why would you want to buy your clothes at L.L.
我想，如果你是黑手党公主，你为什么要在 L.L. 买衣服？
Bean?
豆子？
The one thing that I did not feel that he lied about is that he worshipped the ground that I walked on.
我不觉得他撒谎的一件事是他崇拜我走过的土地。
And he would say, I think you're the most beautiful woman I've ever seen.
他会说，我认为你是我见过的最美丽的女人。
And whether that was a lie or not, that was the kinds of lies you want to hear.
无论这是否是谎言，这都是你想听到的谎言。
When I figured out that he had had who knows how many other lives, complete lives, one of the things that I realized is that he would create a person, and if that person didn't work, that he would just leave that person, leave that body, leave that location that he was living in, move to a new place, start with a new person, and build a whole new life and say, hmm, maybe this person will work, maybe people will like this person, maybe I'll like this person.
当我发现他还有谁知道多少次生命，完整的生命时，我意识到他会创造一个人，如果那个人不工作，他就会离开那个人，离开那个身体，离开他居住的地方，搬到一个新的地方，从一个新的人开始，建立一个全新的生活，然后说，嗯，也许这个人会工作，也许人们会喜欢这个人，也许我会喜欢这个人。
Sometimes you want so much to believe somebody, even if you know that they're a liar, that you try to keep from putting them in a position where they're going to lie.
有时你非常想相信某人，即使你知道他们是骗子，但你会尽力避免将他们置于将要说谎的境地。
So you don't ask them anything.
所以你什么也不问他们。
Then the only reason to ask a question is because it becomes like a comedy routine.
那么问问题的唯一原因就是因为它变得像一个喜剧例程。
It's like, what kind of story will I hear if I throw this question out?
就像，如果我抛出这个问题，我会听到什么样的故事？
And sometimes when I would be in a sick mood, I would do that kind of stuff, just to hear, hmm, I need a little story.
有时当我心情不好时，我会做那种事情，只是为了听，嗯，我需要一个小故事。
When our second baby was born, he couldn't handle it, and he got into drugs.
当我们的第二个孩子出生时，他无法忍受，开始吸毒。
And I would say to him, the only way we can work on it is for you to admit to me and not lie to me and tell me, I have a problem.
我会对他说，我们解决这个问题的唯一方法就是你向我承认，而不是对我撒谎并告诉我，我有问题。
And he would say, I don't.
他会说，我不喜欢。
And I'd say, you do, and you're lying, and tell me the truth or leave.
我会说，你确实这么做了，但你在撒谎，要么告诉我真相，要么离开。
I think that what I noticed the most from the hour that he left was that I just kept sighing.
我想，从他离开的那一刻起，我最注意到的是我一直在叹息。
I would just go [SIGHS] I couldn't talk to anybody without sighing.
我会去[叹气]我无法与任何人交谈而不叹息。
I was just so relieved.
我真是松了口气。
People would say to me, well, you know, he's wrapped up in drugs, and he's not thinking straight.
人们会对我说，嗯，你知道，他沉迷于毒品，而且他的思维不正常。
Do you think that he might come and hurt you?
你认为他会来伤害你吗？
And I thought, maybe he's taking on yet another life.
我想，也许他正在开始另一种生活。
And he's gone through too many lives, and he is going to, in fact, come and kill me and kill the kids and disappear.
他经历了太多的人生，事实上，他会来杀了我，杀了孩子们，然后消失。
And that was the only time I thought, suddenly all these lies, it's scary.
那是我唯一一次想到，突然间所有这些谎言，太可怕了。
I felt a lot of fear, and I didn't sleep.
我感到很害怕，一夜没睡。
I didn't sleep, and I had bars put on all my windows and all my doors.
我没有睡觉，我所有的窗户和门都装上了铁栅栏。
It wasn't funny.
这不好笑。
It wasn't something I could deal with.
这不是我能处理的事情。
And it wasn't something I ever wanted to deal with again.
这不是我想再次处理的事情。
One of the things that is very important in all of this, and why I sound calm, is that I really didn't love him.
在这一切中，非常重要的一件事，也是我听起来很平静的原因之一，就是我真的不爱他。
I wasn't in love with him.
我并没有爱上他。
So that was my own lie.
所以那是我自己的谎言。
So I was lying too.
所以我也在撒谎。
I was saying, yes, I love you.
我说，是的，我爱你。
Yes, I know it doesn't seem like it, but, yes, I love you.
是的，我知道看起来不像，但是，是的，我爱你。
It would come out of mouth because you don't want to say to somebody, no, I don't love you, but I want to stay married.
它会从嘴里说出来，因为你不想对某人说，不，我不爱你，但我想维持婚姻。
And so it was my own lie too.
所以这也是我自己的谎言。
In that self-deception, in thinking that I could make this work, that was the biggest lie of all.
在那种自欺欺人中，在认为我可以完成这项工作的过程中，这是最大的谎言。
And it isn't other people's lies that they're going to tell me in my life.
在我的一生中，他们不会告诉我别人的谎言。
What I just have to constantly keep working on is not lying to myself, not deceiving myself.
我要做的就是不断地努力，不欺骗自己，不欺骗自己。
And it's difficult.
这很困难。
It's really hard.
真的很难。
Psychiatry, we're told, is a science.
我们被告知，精神病学是一门科学。
And given the fact that lying is so common, you'd imagine that someone had thoroughly disassembled this personality disorder, figured out why some people's reasonable truth mechanism gets jammed between gears.
鉴于撒谎如此普遍，你会想象有人已经彻底拆解了这种人格障碍，弄清楚了为什么有些人的合理真相机制会卡在齿轮之间。
So we called up these two experts to find out what they knew, psychologist Paul Ekman, a researcher at the University of California at San Francisco, and Brian King, a psychiatrist at the UCLA School of Medicine.
因此，我们打电话给这两位专家，即加州大学旧金山分校的研究员、心理学家保罗·埃克曼（Paul Ekman）和加州大学洛杉矶分校医学院的精神病学家布莱恩·金（Brian King），来了解他们所知道的情况。
Dr. King has surveyed the published psychiatric material online, and here's what he says.
金博士调查了网上发表的精神病学材料，以下是他的说法。
It's quite remarkable.
这是相当了不起的。
There's been relatively little attention devoted to it.
对此的关注相对较少。
If you look at the world literature over the past 100 years, you come up with maybe 70, 80 cases.
如果你看看过去100年的世界文学，你可能会想到70、80个案例。
There's been very little research on compulsive liars because they don't come into your office.
关于强迫性说谎者的研究很少，因为他们不会进入你的办公室。
They don't seek help, and they're not interested in cooperating in research.
他们不寻求帮助，也不对合作研究感兴趣。
And there's nothing in it for them.
这对他们来说没有任何好处。
And as for the scientific research that has been done, the results are pretty disturbing.
至于已经完成的科学研究，结果是相当令人不安的。
For instance, studies have shown that most people cannot tell when they're being lied to.
例如，研究表明，大多数人无法辨别自己何时被欺骗了。
That's true even of people who are specially trained to detect liars.
即使对于那些受过专门训练来识别说谎者的人来说也是如此。
Then there are the case studies.
然后是案例研究。
It's hard to offer a great deal of hope to anyone who's intimately involved with a compulsive liar, because there's very little reason to believe that they're going to change.
很难给那些与强迫性说谎者有密切关系的人带来很大的希望，因为没有理由相信他们会改变。
Some people have written that lying is something that is very difficult to treat, that in order to have a treatment response, you have to have someone who is able to live with the truth that therapy is based on the ability to tolerate and explore the truth.
有些人写道，说谎是很难治疗的事情，为了产生治疗反应，你必须有人能够接受这样的事实：治疗是基于容忍和探索真相的能力。
I would categorize myself as a liar.
我会把自己归类为骗子。
Even in the safe confines of a therapist's office, you're still tempted to lie.
即使在治疗师办公室的安全范围内，您仍然想撒谎。
In fact, you guys here have no idea whether or not I'm making this up or not.
事实上，你们不知道这是否是我编造的。
No one can be exactly certain as to why some people become compulsive liars, but the two motives that are most likely are the power motive, the compulsive liar who lies because they want to control you.
没有人能确切地确定为什么有些人会成为强迫性说谎者，但最有可能的两种动机是权力动机，强迫性说谎者说谎是因为他们想控制你。
You see this in early adolescence, where kids will lie solely for the reason of demonstrating that they can beat the old man, that they can put one over on their parents.
你可以在青春期早期看到这一点，孩子们撒谎只是为了证明他们可以打败老人，他们可以打败他们的父母。
Well, some people never grow out of that.
好吧，有些人永远不会摆脱这种情况。
It becomes a game.
它变成了一场游戏。
In one particular store, they refused to give me a cash exchange for a particular piece of merchandise.
在一家特定的商店，他们拒绝给我现金兑换某件商品。
I told them I was joining the Marines in the next couple weeks and being shipped off to Saudi Arabia.
我告诉他们我将在接下来的几周内加入海军陆战队，并被送往沙特阿拉伯。
That was an instance where I thought, well, this would be kind of funny.
那是一个例子，我想，嗯，这会有点有趣。
Maybe there is a little bit of a charge that comes with the successful telling of a lie, the rush of duping someone else, particularly someone who is perceived to be more powerful than you are.
成功地撒谎、急于欺骗别人，尤其是那些被认为比你更有权力的人，也许会带来一些指控。
Probably more common than that is the compulsive liar who's like the name-dropper, but the name-dropper taken to the nth degree.
可能比这更常见的是强迫性说谎者，他们就像诽谤者，但诽谤者达到了n级。
One day I heard him telling somebody his father was the CEO to Ford Motor Company.
有一天，我听到他告诉某人他的父亲是福特汽车公司的首席执行官。
Sharky started telling me all these things, how she had this uncle, and the uncle was the president of 20th Century Fox and that she had worked there as a film editor.
Sharky 开始告诉我所有这些事情，她是如何拥有这个叔叔的，而那个叔叔是 20 世纪福克斯公司的总裁，她曾在那里担任电影剪辑师。
They get our attention.
他们引起了我们的注意。
They get our interest.
他们引起了我们的兴趣。
They get our admiration.
他们得到我们的钦佩。
And in a sense, you might think of them as being addicted to that type of admiration.
从某种意义上说，你可能会认为他们沉迷于这种钦佩。
For some reason, I seem to really seek approval from people, especially women.
出于某种原因，我似乎真的很寻求人们的认可，尤其是女性。
And generally, people will believe what they hear.
一般来说，人们会相信他们所听到的。
And once I get that approval, whether it be, yeah, let's go to bed, let's have a relationship, let's have a drink, or just a smile, that was enough.
一旦我得到了批准，无论是，是的，让我们去睡觉，让我们建立关系，让我们喝一杯，或者只是一个微笑，这就足够了。
That was my fix.
这就是我的解决方法。
Again, like an addiction to anything, be it alcohol, be it gambling, whatever, the drive is that the next time I engage in this behavior is going to be the one that's fulfilling.
再说一遍，就像对任何事物上瘾一样，无论是酗酒，还是赌博，无论什么，动力都是我下次从事这种行为时会感到满足。
You really feel almost like you're protecting yourself, because if this person knew what I was really like and what my real desires were, they would be running like hell.
你真的觉得你在保护自己，因为如果这个人知道我真正喜欢什么以及我真正的愿望是什么，他们就会拼命逃跑。
When you look at the histories of these people, very often they come from childhoods where they were traumatized from situations where you would expect a young child to develop a sense that they didn't matter, that there was something wrong with them.
当你审视这些人的历史时，你会发现他们常常来自童年，在童年时期，他们受到过创伤，你会期望一个小孩子会发展出一种感觉，即他们并不重要，他们有问题。
And some compulsive lying may reflect attempts to rewrite history.
一些强迫性的谎言可能反映出改写历史的企图。
If I can get this person to believe that I do have wealthy relatives and that I was pampered as a child and so on, maybe I can get myself to believe it too.
如果我能让这个人相信我确实有富有的亲戚，而且我从小就被宠坏了等等，也许我也能让自己相信这一点。
Take this story.
就拿这个故事来说吧。
Most of it unfolds in one of those dorm rooms that's claustrophobically dinky, 10 feet by 12 feet, only enough space for two identical single beds, two identical desks, two identical dressers, one narrow window which doesn't open very far.
大部分内容都在其中一间狭小的宿舍里展开，10英尺乘12英尺，空间只够容纳两张相同的单人床、两张相同的桌子、两个相同的梳妆台、一扇不能打开太远的狭窄窗户。
It's the kind of room where interior decorating means a poster-sized blow-up of a New Yorker cartoon.
在这种房间里，室内装饰意味着《纽约客》漫画的海报大小的放大。
And the walls, they came that way-- green, lime green.
墙壁也是这样的——绿色，石灰绿色。
And in this room at a small college in Nebraska live two guys who are just getting used to a new social hierarchy.
在内布拉斯加州一所小型大学的这个房间里，住着两个刚刚适应新的社会等级制度的人。
They're in a world where it's possible to live with someone you're not that close to.
他们生活在一个可以与不太亲近的人一起生活的世界。
I never considered him my friend, really.
我从来没有把他当作我的朋友，真的。
He was my roommate.
他是我的室友。
He'd grown up in this little, tiny, tiny town in Nebraska.
他在内布拉斯加州的这个小镇长大。
As it will become clear later, he had lied to me in telling me that he didn't actually grow up there.
稍后我们就会明白，他对我撒了谎，告诉我他实际上并不是在那里长大的。
He'd grown up off in Boston, exotic, distant Boston.
他在波士顿长大，充满异国情调的遥远波士顿。
It was when he started talking about Boston that things really started getting strange.
当他开始谈论波士顿时，事情才真正开始变得奇怪。
And the story was something like this, that his father was an executive for a company that made satellites.
故事是这样的，他的父亲是一家制造卫星的公司的高管。
He never told me the name of the company.
他从来没有告诉过我公司的名字。
It was an important international corporation in Boston.
它是波士顿一家重要的国际公司。
And they lived in Boston, just down the street from the Kennedy estate.
他们住在波士顿，就在肯尼迪庄园的街道上。
And as a child, he used to play with the Kennedy children.
小时候，他经常和肯尼迪的孩子们一起玩耍。
He told me that the first time he met them, it was by sneaking into the Kennedy estate through the hedge.
他告诉我，他第一次见到他们是通过树篱偷偷溜进肯尼迪庄园的。
He snuck in and found the kids in the backyard and got to know them.
他偷偷溜进去，在后院找到了孩子们，并认识了他们。
I don't really remember the names, but he knew all the names.
我不太记得这些名字，但他知道所有的名字。
And he would describe their personalities to me.
他会向我描述他们的性格。
His best friend in the group was one of Robert Kennedy's sons.
他在小组中最好的朋友是罗伯特·肯尼迪的儿子之一。
Eventually, about the time he was in high school, his father found out that he had a serious heart condition, and he couldn't work anymore.
最终，大约在他上高中的时候，他的父亲发现他患有严重的心脏病，他无法再工作了。
He had to quit.
他不得不退出。
And not only did he have to quit, but he had to get away from this fast lane, high society lifestyle.
他不仅必须辞职，而且还必须摆脱这种快车道、上流社会的生活方式。
So his father had decided to move the family back to the small town in Nebraska where he had grown up.
因此，他的父亲决定举家搬回他长大的内布拉斯加州小镇。
So that was how he explained why he was in this small town, because on weekends, he would often go home to this small town to visit his parents.
所以他是这么解释自己为什么来到这个小镇的，因为周末的时候，他经常会回这个小镇的老家看望父母。
He often used to tell me that he would go to Boston on weekends in his father's private plane.
他经常告诉我，他周末会乘坐他父亲的私人飞机去波士顿。
He told me that he was being supported by the Kennedys, that the Kennedys were paying for him to go to college.
他告诉我，他得到了肯尼迪家族的支持，肯尼迪家族支付他上大学的费用。
And I asked him the first question that I think would occur to anybody at this moment-- Ted Kennedy was the one who was paying for him to go to college.
我问了他我认为此刻任何人都会想到的第一个问题——特德·肯尼迪是支付他上大学费用的人。
I said, if Ted Kennedy is paying for you to go to school, why are you in Nebraska?
我说，如果特德·肯尼迪支付你上学的费用，你为什么在内布拉斯加州？
Why aren't you going to Harvard or Yale or someplace?
你为什么不去哈佛或耶鲁或者其他地方呢？
And he said, well, I have to stay close to my father, because my father is so ill.
他说，好吧，我必须和我父亲呆在一起，因为我父亲病得很重。
That made sense.
这是有道理的。
Although I could have said something like, well, couldn't your dad just send the private plane to get you at Yale or Harvard?
虽然我可以说，好吧，你爸爸就不能派私人飞机来接你去耶鲁大学或哈佛吗？
I basically believed it, or at least never really thought it was worth my while to doubt it.
我基本上相信它，或者至少从来没有真正认为值得我去怀疑它。
And it went on that way for about five months, until one Sunday night, he came back.
这样的情况持续了大约五个月，直到一个周日晚上，他回来了。
He'd been away all weekend.
他整个周末都不在家。
And he was acting sort of funny, kind of sheepish, but yet grinning a lot, as if he had a secret.
他表现得有点滑稽，有点害羞，但总是笑得很开心，好像他有一个秘密。
I could tell from his behavior that it was the kind of secret that he wanted me to ask him about.
从他的行为中我可以看出，这是他想让我问他的秘密。
So finally I said, what's going on?
所以最后我说，这是怎么回事？
Why are you acting so funny?
你为什么表现得这么滑稽？
And he sort of grinned and laughed a little.
他微微一笑。
He said, I did something really silly this weekend.
他说，这个周末我做了一件非常愚蠢的事情。
I said, oh, what did you do?
我说，哦，你做了什么？
I felt like I was playing along.
我感觉我正在一起玩。
I really, by this point, had serious doubts about anything he said.
至此，我真的对他所说的一切产生了严重的怀疑。
And he said, I swiped my father's plane.
他说，我偷了我父亲的飞机。
I said, oh, really?
我说，哦，真的吗？
You just took it, huh?
你刚拿的吧？
He said, yeah, I took it, and I just went for a ride.
他说，是的，我拿了，我只是去兜风。
And I said, really?
我说，真的吗？
Where did you go?
你去哪儿？
He said, I went to Boston.
他说，我去了波士顿。
I said, why did you have to go to Boston without your dad knowing about it since you go there all the time?
我说，你既然都去波士顿，为什么要瞒着你爸爸去呢？
He said, well, it was a surprise because it was Rose's 92nd birthday party, and I really wanted to go.
他说，嗯，这是一个惊喜，因为这是罗斯的 92 岁生日聚会，我真的很想去。
And my father didn't want me to go.
而且我父亲不想让我去。
And then it was a few weeks after that that I ran into, one day on campus, a woman who was a mutual friend of ours.
几周后的一天，我在校园里遇到了一位女士，她是我们共同的朋友。
There wasn't a romance between them, but she sort of wanted there to be one.
他们之间并没有恋爱关系，但她有点希望有一段恋爱关系。
And she said, well, I went home last weekend to the small town that she was from.
她说，好吧，我上周末回到了她来自的小镇。
And in the public library, she just happened to come across city directories for every small town in Nebraska.
在公共图书馆，她偶然发现了内布拉斯加州每个小镇的城市名录。
In these city directories for these small towns, they list who you are, where you live, what your occupation is, all the information you'd want to know about this small town.
在这些小镇的城市名录中，他们列出了您是谁，您住在哪里，您的职业是什么，以及您想了解的有关这个小镇的所有信息。
And so she pulled down the city directory off the shelf from the town that he was from and looked up his name and his family's name.
于是，她从他所在的小镇上取下了架子上的城市名录，查找了他的名字和家人的名字。
And it said that his father was an electrician's assistant, not a retired executive, not someone who worked for this big satellite company, but an electrician's assistant.
而且上面说他的父亲是一名电工助理，不是退休高管，也不是在这家大卫星公司工作的人，而是电工助理。
And at that moment, the lie seemed very sad.
而那一刻，谎言显得十分悲伤。
I sort of felt like if I had confronted him, something terrible would have happened.
我感觉如果我面对他，就会发生可怕的事情。
He really just would have exploded, that he would have broke down, because someone would have kicked a big hole in this wall that he was trying to erect between himself and the truth.
他真的会爆炸，他会崩溃，因为有人会在他试图在自己和真相之间建立的这堵墙上踢出一个大洞。
I was kind of scared, to tell you the truth, because once you learn that someone is capable of just completely deceiving you about who they are, where they're from, what their family is like, then you never know what's going to happen, because I found this out sometime before the end of the school year, so I had to live with this man.
说实话，我有点害怕，因为一旦你知道有人能够完全欺骗你，让你知道他们是谁，他们来自哪里，他们的家庭是什么样的，那么你永远不知道会发生什么，因为我在学年结束前的某个时候发现了这一点，所以我不得不和这个男人住在一起。
I had to sleep with this man in a small university dormitory room where my narrow single bed was about three feet away from his narrow single bed.
我不得不和这个男人一起睡在一个狭小的大学宿舍里，我的窄单人床离他窄的单人床大约三英尺远。
And here was a man who would look at me with his eyes just glowing, with this very earnest, sort of frantically earnest look in his eyes, telling me about his father's job and how important it had been.
这个男人会用他的眼睛闪闪发光地看着我，他的眼睛里带着一种非常认真、有点疯狂的认真的神情，告诉我他父亲的工作以及它有多么重要。
I think he believed it.
我想他相信了。
I think he really thought that he had done these things.
我认为他确实认为他做了这些事情。
You have to consider the fact that he was an only child.
你必须考虑到他是独生子这一事实。
And have you ever been to a really small town?
你去过一个真正的小镇吗？
If you've ever been to a really small town and you're a different kind of kid-- it doesn't really matter in what way you're different.
如果你曾经去过一个非常小的城镇，并且你是一个与众不同的孩子——那么你的不同之处并不重要。
But there's a good possibility that while you're growing up, you might look around you and not see anybody your own age with whom you feel you have anything in common.
但很有可能，在你成长的过程中，你环顾四周，却看不到任何与你同龄的人，而你觉得与你有任何共同点。
He might have grown up feeling really lonely.
他可能在成长过程中感到非常孤独。
And so how did he respond?
那么他是如何回应的呢？
He created this fantasy where he wasn't just friends with one kid, he made it sound like-- he would talk about going swimming in their pool where there would be a dozen of them running around.
他创造了这样一个幻想，他不仅仅是一个孩子的朋友，他听起来像是——他会谈论在他们的游泳池里游泳，那里会有十几个孩子跑来跑去。
You can imagine them playing soccer on the lawn together.
你可以想象他们一起在草坪上踢足球。
And there was this whole little community.
那里有整个小社区。
You could definitely see the desire behind it.
你绝对可以看到它背后的愿望。
I guess I could see it because-- although the town that I was from was nowhere near as small as the town that he was from-- I grew up in an environment where I looked around me as a kid and just never really felt like there was anybody with whom I had much in common.
我想我能看到这一点，因为——尽管我来自的小镇远没有他来自的小镇那么小——我在一个小时候环顾四周的环境中长大，从来没有真正感觉到有人与我有很多共同点。
At that time, I had never been to Boston either.
那时我也从未去过波士顿。
And I went through a real Kennedy phase like a lot of kids do.
我和很多孩子一样经历了真正的肯尼迪阶段。
I had a picture of John F.
我有一张约翰·F.
Kennedy on my wall, and the first biography that I ever read was a biography of John F.
肯尼迪在我的墙上，我读过的第一本传记是约翰·F·肯尼迪的传记。
Kennedy.
肯尼迪.
I even read Profiles in Courage.
我什至读过《勇气》的简介。
I'm asking each of you to be pioneers towards that new frontier.
我要求你们每个人都成为这一新领域的先驱。
My call is to the young in heart--
我向内心年轻的人发出呼吁——
If you're trying to embroider a life, a life in America, what myth are you going to try to hook yourself onto?
如果你想编织一种生活，一种在美国的生活，你会试图让自己陷入什么样的神话？
Who are you going to pick on?
你要选谁呢？
It seems to me like the Kennedys might be most people's first choice of a myth.
在我看来，肯尼迪家族可能是大多数人对神话的第一选择。
If I were going to pick one, that's probably the one I would pick too.
如果我要选一个，我可能也会选那个。
In a way, maybe that's why I was so responsive to this.
在某种程度上，也许这就是我对此如此敏感的原因。
I could picture him at the wheel of his father's plane.
我可以想象他驾驶着他父亲的飞机。
I sort of had this picture in my head of him driving the plane.
我的脑海里浮现出他驾驶飞机的画面。
And when you think about flying from Nebraska to Boston, that's like a three-hour flight, I think.
当你想到从内布拉斯加州飞往波士顿时，我想这就像一个三个小时的飞行。
And you just sort of imagine him going over Iowa and Illinois and Ohio and Indiana.
你可以想象他穿越爱荷华州、伊利诺伊州、俄亥俄州和印第安纳州。
And I just sort of saw him in my head doing this.
我只是在脑海中看到了他在做这件事。
And then, maybe the Kennedys have their own airstrip or something.
然后，也许肯尼迪家族有自己的机场之类的。
Did he go to Logan International Airport right in the middle of downtown Boston?
他去的是位于波士顿市中心的洛根国际机场吗？
If he landed at Logan International Airport, did he just park the plane there, and did Ted have a limo waiting for him?
如果他降落在洛根国际机场，他是否只是将飞机停在那里，特德是否有一辆豪华轿车在等他？
I thought about all these things.
我思考了所有这些事情。
I just kind of played with the idea myself.
我只是自己尝试了一下这个想法。
So in a way, I guess I was having some fun with the whole thing too.
所以在某种程度上，我想我也从整件事中得到了一些乐趣。
You're listening to a special edition of This American Life, ah hour of true stories about compulsive liars.
您正在收听《美国生活》的特别版，这是一小时关于强迫性说谎者的真实故事。
I hope that every American, regardless of where he lives, will stop and examine his conscience about this and other related incidents.
我希望每个美国人，无论身在何处，都停下来，对这起事件以及其他相关事件进行良心审视。
More lies in a minute when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续进行时，更多内容将在稍后揭晓。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Most weeks, of course, on this program, we choose a theme, invite a variety of writers and performers to tackle that theme.
当然，在这个节目中，大多数星期我们都会选择一个主题，邀请各种作家和表演者来解决这个主题。
This week, however, as April Fools' Day approaches, we are taking a break from all that to bring you this hour-long special on liars, compulsive liars.
然而，本周，随着愚人节的临近，我们暂时抛开这一切，为您带来这个时长一小时的关于说谎者、强迫性说谎者的特别节目。
Margy Rochlin narrates.
玛吉·罗克林讲述。
The fact is, people want to believe in lies.
事实是，人们愿意相信谎言。
People want to believe compulsive liars.
人们愿意相信强迫性的说谎者。
The lies they tell are usually appealing.
他们所说的谎言通常很有吸引力。
And most lies told by anyone, most of them succeed because the person being lied to in some sense wants to believe in the lie.
任何人所说的大多数谎言，大多数都会成功，因为在某种意义上，被骗的人想要相信谎言。
It's like you want to believe the magician.
就像你想相信魔术师一样。
You don't want to believe it's a trick.
你不想相信这是一个诡计。
And you could keep believing the lie forever, except for this fact.
你可以永远相信这个谎言，除了这个事实。
A compulsive liar is compulsive.
强迫性说谎者是强迫性的。
They can't leave well enough alone.
他们不能独自离开。
They keep adding to the lie.
他们不断地增加谎言。
Pushing things to the edge.
将事情推向边缘。
Maybe that's why you do it as a liar.
也许这就是你作为骗子这样做的原因。
Maybe it loses its punch when you've repeated the same story over and over again, and it's universally accepted.
当你一遍又一遍地重复同一个故事时，它可能会失去影响力，而它却被普遍接受。
Maybe you have to embellish it a little bit so that it is interesting.
也许你需要稍微修饰一下，让它变得有趣。
Probably what's more likely the case is that, when your lie is believed and it doesn't solve your internal pain, that you have to crank it up a notch so that maybe this time, I'll feel better.
也许更可能的情况是，当你的谎言被相信并且它不能解决你内心的痛苦时，你必须把它提高一个档次，这样也许这一次我会感觉好一点。
Maybe this time I'll be acceptable to myself.
也许这一次我能接受自己了。
And maybe that's what pushes people ever closer to the brink and ultimately to the point where their lies are preposterous.
也许这就是将人们推向边缘的原因，并最终导致他们的谎言变得荒谬。
There's this thing that happens when you're involved with a compulsive liar.
当你和一个强迫性说谎者交往时，就会发生这种事情。
You go through this phase where you don't believe the things you're hearing, but you don't exactly disbelieve them either.
你会经历这个阶段，你不相信你所听到的事情，但你也不会完全不相信它们。
You're in limbo.
你正处于困境。
You think this person's nice, and the lies they're telling are so big that to think that they're lying would mean acknowledging that they're kind of crazy.
你认为这个人很好，而且他们所说的谎言是如此之大，以至于认为他们在撒谎就意味着承认他们有点疯狂。
So instead, you don't think anything.
所以相反，你什么都不去想。
It's like this response that some animals have to danger called tonic immobility.
就像一些动物面对危险时所做出的这种反应，称为强直不动。
When they're threatened and they can't get away, they just play dead.
当他们受到威胁而无法逃脱时，他们就会装死。
Their instincts tell them to stay motionless, and the problem is, once they've put themselves to sleep, it's hard to wake up.
他们的本能告诉他们要保持一动不动，但问题是，一旦他们睡着了，就很难醒来。
I loved my father dearly, and I didn't want to believe these things about him.
我非常爱我的父亲，但我不想相信他的这些事情。
So I would just try to put it in the back of my mind and not think about it.
所以我会尽量把它抛到脑后，不去想它。
This teenager, she stayed in that limbo phase for about a year.
这个少年，她在那个不确定的阶段呆了大约一年。
Her mother watched it happen.
她的母亲目睹了这一切的发生。
My daughter went along with this thinking that her father certainly wouldn't lie to her, though I had definitely told her that she had to be careful of this kind of thing.
女儿也同意了，心想她爸爸肯定不会骗她，虽然我明确告诉过她，这种事一定要小心。
Here's what happened.
事情是这样的。
She had a $1,400 college scholarship and sent the money to West Point, where she was enrolled.
她获得了 1,400 美元的大学奖学金，并将这笔钱寄到了她就读的西点军校。
But she quit after basic training and switched to this other college in Virginia.
但她在基础训练后退出，转学到弗吉尼亚州的另一所大学。
Her parents were recently divorced and broke.
她的父母最近离婚并且破产了。
She was depending on the return of this deposit at West Point.
她在西点军校就指望这笔押金的归还。
It never came, never came.
它从来没有来过，从来没有来过。
I didn't know exactly when the check was coming.
我不知道支票什么时候到。
I didn't know when they were sending it, because my dad was receiving all my mail.
我不知道他们什么时候寄出，因为我爸爸收到了我所有的邮件。
He kept telling her that the check hadn't come.
他一直告诉她支票还没来。
My dad just kept telling me different stories.
我爸爸总是给我讲不同的故事。
For months.
几个月来。
Girl When he would tell me reasons why the check wasn't coming to me, I had trouble believing it, but I let it slide.
女孩 当他告诉我支票没有寄给我的原因时，我很难相信，但我还是把它放在一边。
I thought he loved me so much that he wouldn't do anything like this to me.
我以为他很爱我，不会对我做这样的事。
And I just didn't want to not believe him.
我只是不想不相信他。
But I probably should have.
但我可能应该这么做。
He told me that it was sent to my old address where my mom lived before she moved, and it had to be sent back to West Point to have a new check made.
他告诉我，这张支票被寄到了我妈妈搬家之前住的旧地址，而且必须寄回西点军校开一张新支票。
And then it was delayed up at West Point for some reason.
然后由于某种原因在西点军校被推迟了。
He told her that he had had various calls with West Point and that they had said they were deducting certain amounts for uniforms.
他告诉她，他曾多次致电西点军校，他们表示要扣除一定金额的制服费用。
The check never came.
支票始终没有来。
Then another time happened where he said it was lost in the mail, and it never got there.
然后又发生了一次，他说它在邮件中丢失了，而且从未到达那里。
And I didn't know what to believe.
我不知道该相信什么。
I was like, well, what do I say?
我当时想，好吧，我该说什么？
But I didn't really think hard about it and think, oh, my dad's not truthful and he's this and that.
但我并没有认真思考，我想，哦，我爸爸不诚实，他是这样那样的。
At that time, I didn't think about that.
当时我并没有想到这一点。
I just didn't want to.
我只是不想。
My mom told me stories about what my father had done to her.
我妈妈给我讲了我父亲对她所做的事情。
I lived with this man for 19 years, and I knew that he lied.
我和这个男人一起生活了19年，我知道他撒了谎。
If he told me the sun was shining, I would have to look before I believed him.
如果他告诉我阳光明媚，我就得先看看才相信他。
It got to that point.
事情已经到了这个地步。
When my mom told me the situation about what my father had done, I had trouble believing what she was saying.
当妈妈告诉我父亲的所作所为时，我简直不敢相信她说的话。
I would agree with her, but deep inside, I didn't know exactly how to feel, because I was split in between them a lot after the separation occurred.
我同意她的观点，但在内心深处，我不知道具体的感受，因为在分离发生后，我在他们之间分裂了很多。
I was the person in the middle.
我就是中间的那个人。
And I had to go in between the two.
我必须介于两者之间。
And I didn't know what to believe of what I was hearing.
我不知道该相信我所听到的内容。
And I just tried to blow off anything I heard so that it just wouldn't affect me.
我只是试图把我听到的一切都抛掉，这样它就不会影响我。
Finally, he said, a check has come, and I have taken it to my attorney's office for safekeeping because there are thefts in our neighborhood, and I don't want someone to steal this check.
最后，他说，一张支票来了，我已经把它带到我的律师办公室妥善保管，因为我们附近经常发生盗窃案，我不想让有人偷这张支票。
So he had it locked up in the lawyer's safe.
所以他把它锁在律师的保险箱里。
And I thought, I guess that's understandable.
我想，我想这是可以理解的。
However, it's kind of stupid.
然而，这有点愚蠢。
But I didn't want to not believe him with it.
但我不想不相信他。
Then he told me that the lawyer had to be called back into the military because of the Operation Desert Storm.
然后他告诉我，由于沙漠风暴行动，律师不得不被召回军队。
They had to go back into the reserves.
他们不得不回到预备队。
And he said that he was the only one who could open the safe.
他说他是唯一能打开保险箱的人。
And I thought that was pretty stupid too, because what if he died?
我认为这也很愚蠢，因为如果他死了怎么办？
Who would be able to get into the safe then?
那么谁能进入保险箱呢？
There had to be someone who could open the safe.
必须有人可以打开保险箱。
Either his partner or his secretary or someone could get into the safe.
他的伴侣、他的秘书或其他人都可以进入保险箱。
So I finally got too suspicious and thought it was a very stupid thing he was saying to me.
所以我最终变得太怀疑了，认为他对我说的是一件非常愚蠢的事情。
And then finally I said, look, you really need to call the attorney's office.
最后我说，听着，你真的需要给律师办公室打电话。
And I called the lawyer's office and found out that the man didn't even know about it.
我给律师事务所打电话，发现那个人根本不知道这件事。
And he was actually at home, had not been sent away.
而他其实就在家里，并没有被送走。
And when he got on the phone, I was just like, what?
当他接到电话时，我就想，什么？
I could not believe it.
我简直不敢相信。
I was in shock.
我很震惊。
I mean, I almost had trouble talking to him, because I didn't expect him to be there in the first place.
我的意思是，我几乎无法和他交谈，因为我一开始就没想到他会在那里。
And I had asked him about the check.
我问过他支票的事。
And he said he had never heard anything about it, and he hadn't seen my dad in a long time.
他说他从来没有听说过这件事，而且他也已经很长时间没有见到我爸爸了。
It was just like a load just was put on my shoulders.
就像一个重担压在了我的肩上。
And I just could not believe it.
我简直不敢相信。
My whole body just went limp.
我的整个身体都软了。
So that evening, I called my dad.
于是那天晚上，我给爸爸打了电话。
And I was crying on the phone.
我在电话里哭了。
And I asked him what he had done with it.
我问他用它做了什么。
And he said that he had lost the check in the mail.
他说他在邮寄过程中丢失了支票。
And I just didn't believe him.
我就是不相信他。
Finally, I just got to the point where I just wasn't believing what he was saying.
最后，我简直不敢相信他说的话。
She called me, and she said, you were right.
她打电话给我，她说，你是对的。
And she's crying on the phone.
她在电话里哭了。
It's just horrible.
这太可怕了。
I don't have to deal with him anymore.
我不用再跟他打交道了。
And that's what my younger daughter said.
我的小女儿也是这么说的。
"This is worse for us than it even was for you, Mom, because you got away.
“这对我们来说甚至比对你来说更糟糕，妈妈，因为你逃跑了。
And he will always be my father." And a man or anyone who lies like this is not in control.
他永远是我的父亲。”像这样撒谎的人或任何人都无法控制。
I don't think that he's in control.
我不认为他能控制一切。
And that's the hardest part for me.
这对我来说是最难的部分。
I can't protect them.
我无法保护他们。
I was Daddy's little girl, and everybody knew it.
我是爸爸的小女儿，每个人都知道。
And I loved him more than anything in the whole world.
我爱他胜过爱全世界。
Every once in a while I think that this could not have happened and that it can't be real.
每隔一段时间我就会想这不可能发生，也不可能是真的。
And I don't want to think about it and admit that it happened.
我不想考虑它并承认它发生了。
And sometimes I try to put my mind on other things and try not to think about it, but it's always there.
有时我试着把注意力放在其他事情上，试着不去想它，但它总是在那里。
And it is always digging at me.
它总是在挖苦我。
It just hurts.
只是很痛。
It hurts in your heart.
你的心很痛。
I feel like a part of my heart was taken out when he did this to me.
当他对我这样做时，我感觉我的心的一部分被抽走了。
It's really hard to explain, but it just feels like part of me is missing now that I don't trust my father anymore.
这真的很难解释，但感觉就像我的一部分缺失了，因为我不再信任我的父亲了。
I'll never know why he did it.
我永远不会知道他为什么这么做。
I don't think he'll ever admit it to me why.
我认为他永远不会向我承认原因。
When the big lie comes down, it makes you question the fabric of all of your experiences.
当弥天大谎被揭穿时，它会让你质疑你所有经历的结构。
You don't believe anybody.
你不相信任何人。
You don't believe anything.
你什么都不相信。
And the lies act like a weird kind of antimatter on all of your memories.
谎言就像一种奇怪的反物质一样影响着你的所有记忆。
You don't know what to think about the past.
你不知道该如何看待过去。
It shakes up your view of the world as a safe place.
它动摇了你对世界安全的看法。
So to restore some kind of order, you launch this private investigation.
因此，为了恢复某种秩序，你发起了这次私人调查。
You make telephone calls.
你打电话。
You look for clues in old letters.
你在旧信件中寻找线索。
Then you combine the evidence with your own memories and start sorting everything into two different piles.
然后你将证据与你自己的记忆结合起来，开始将所有东西分成两堆。
There's a pile of real things and a pile of things that were totally invented.
有一堆真实的东西和一堆完全发明的东西。
You think that if you can make this classification system work, then you can just throw out the pile of fake stuff, reconstruct reality, and go on with your life.
你认为如果你能让这个分类系统发挥作用，那么你就可以扔掉一堆假东西，重建现实，然后继续你的生活。
The problem is, it can't be done.
问题是，这是做不到的。
There's all these tiny pieces of data which don't make sense but are too important to discard.
所有这些微小的数据没有意义，但却非常重要，不能丢弃。
So as a matter of convenience, you start this third pile and you call it "don't know." So now there's "true," "false," and "don't know." And unfortunately, the "don't know" pile, it's where almost everything ends up.
因此，为了方便起见，您开始第三堆，并将其称为“不知道”。所以现在有“真”、“假”和“不知道”。不幸的是，“不知道”堆几乎是所有东西的归宿。
The best thing that could happen to me, the thing that would allow me to go to my grave probably more stabilized would be if he said, no, this is what the truth is really.
可能发生在我身上的最好的事情，让我在进入坟墓时可能更加稳定的事情就是，如果他说，不，这就是事实的真相。
This is what was true, and this is what wasn't.
这就是事实，这不是事实。
Sometimes you can spend years sorting out the truth.
有时你可能需要花费数年的时间来理清真相。
This woman runs a dance company.
这个女人经营一家舞蹈团。
She had a fiance.
她有一个未婚夫。
He seemed to have a lot of money.
他似乎有很多钱。
They lived in an expensive apartment, and he bought her a car.
他们住在一套昂贵的公寓里，他给她买了一辆车。
They were together for three years.
他们在一起三年了。
Then weird things started happening.
然后奇怪的事情开始发生。
Citicorp Bank called me to say when I was going to make a payment.
花旗银行打电话告诉我什么时候付款。
And I said, you've got to be out of your minds.
我说，你一定要疯了。
I hate you guys.
我讨厌你们。
You have investments in South Africa.
您在南非有投资。
You screwed over a bank account of mine a long time ago.
你很久以前就搞砸了我的银行账户。
I wouldn't have a Citicorp-- "Well, you have three Citicorp accounts." And they're, like, $10,000 overdue.
我不会有花旗银行——“好吧，你有三个花旗银行账户。”他们逾期了 10,000 美元。
So I call him up, and he's like, I can explain it.
所以我给他打电话，他说，我可以解释一下。
I'm like, good.
我想，很好。
He's like, send me the information.
他就像，把信息发给我。
He has this way of talking to me that will calm me down and make it seem like everything you ever wanted could come true.
他对我说话的方式会让我平静下来，让我觉得你想要的一切都能实现。
And he also had this demeanor that, I'll take care of everything.
而且他还有这种风度，一切都由我来处理。
Don't worry.
不用担心。
I'll take care of everything.
我会处理好一切。
And I would believe that he would take care of it.
我相信他会处理好这件事。
I figured out later how he did all of this stuff and how easy it is for anyone to do.
后来我明白了他是如何做到所有这些事情的，而且任何人都可以轻松做到。
Once a week, you get something in the mail that says, you have been preapproved for a gold card or whatever.
每周一次，您会收到一封邮件，上面写着您已获得金卡或其他什么的预先批准。
Most people just pitch those in the garbage.
大多数人只是把它们扔进垃圾桶。
Well, he didn't.
嗯，他没有。
He filled them all out.
他把它们全部填满了。
And since we'd filled out one credit card together, he knew all my information.
由于我们一起填写了一张信用卡，他知道我的所有信息。
Your next-door neighbor could be doing it to you right now, and you don't know.
你的隔壁邻居现在可能正在对你这样做，而你却不知道。
There were three Citibank cards.
一共有三张花旗银行卡。
They were starting repossession on my car.
他们开始收回我的车。
There was $8,000 on that.
这笔钱是 8,000 美元。
There was a gold card that had a $5,000 credit limit, and it was run up beyond its credit limit.
有一张金卡的信用额度是5000美元，后来超出了信用额度。
All told, I owed, like, $65,000 to $75,000.
总而言之，我欠了大概 65,000 到 75,000 美元。
I was making $26,000 a year.
我一年赚 26,000 美元。
And I found out about all of this all in, like, 48 hours, because I found out that he had been seeing someone else.
我在大概 48 小时内就知道了这一切，因为我发现他一直在和别人约会。
We had had this really tumultuous thing where he called me up in a total fried state, and I didn't know what was wrong.
我们经历了一件非常混乱的事情，他在完全崩溃的状态下打电话给我，我不知道出了什么问题。
And I mean, he was an emotional basket case.
我的意思是，他是一个情绪失控的人。
It turns out he'd been dating someone in New York, and she dumped him.
原来他一直在纽约和一个人约会，但她甩了他。
And he called me for sympathy.
他打电话给我表示同情。
And he couldn't really tell me why he was so distraught.
他也无法真正告诉我为什么他如此心烦意乱。
So I called him back.
所以我给他回了电话。
I asked him about it, and the whole story comes out, that he'd been seeing this other woman.
我问他这件事，整个故事都出来了，他一直在和另一个女人约会。
He was madly in love with her.
他疯狂地爱着她。
She had dumped him and had just gone to Australia to marry someone else.
她甩了他，刚刚去澳大利亚嫁给了别人。
On the one hand, I'm being the good friend.
一方面，我是好朋友。
"Well, how do you feel about this?" And then I'm like, "What are you, crazy?"
“嗯，你对此有何感想？”然后我就想，“你疯了吗？”
I mean, I felt literally like someone had ripped my innards out, like my whole world was imploding, which is why I went to bed.
我的意思是，我真的感觉就像有人把我的内脏扯了出来，就像我的整个世界都在崩溃，这就是我上床睡觉的原因。
Everything in the air was so heavy.
空气中的一切都是那么沉重。
It was too much work to get to the phone.
打电话的工作量太大了。
It was too much work to put food in my mouth.
把食物放进嘴里太费力了。
It was too much work to get up, put my clothes on, and go to the office.
起床、穿衣服、去办公室的工作量太大了。
And my friends said, you have to get better.
我的朋友们说，你必须变得更好。
Too many of us need you, which is always a good way to jump-start.
我们中有太多人需要您，这始终是快速启动的好方法。
Unfortunately, I'm one of these people who needs to be needed.
不幸的是，我是这些需要被需要的人之一。
And even though I hate that role that I've carved for myself, it's like-- you know, your cat needs you.
尽管我讨厌我为自己塑造的角色，但就像——你知道，你的猫需要你。
My cat has saved me from potential suicide twice.
我的猫两次救了我免于自杀。
Ariel needs to be fed.
爱丽儿需要喂食。
She needs someone to clean the litter box.
她需要有人来清理垃圾箱。
It's so easy to be taken in.
太容易被带进去了
It's this fantasy that they create that you want to be in.
他们创造的正是你想要置身其中的幻想。
I mean, part of it, I'm madly in love with this guy.
我的意思是，部分原因是我疯狂地爱着这个家伙。
And he said, you're an artist.
他说，你是一位艺术家。
You should be doing artwork.
你应该做艺术品。
You shouldn't be dealing with your finances.
你不应该处理你的财务问题。
I'll support you.
我会支持你。
I'll take over all the finances.
我会接管所有的财务。
And it was like God dropped out of the sky and said, "Here.
就像上帝从天上掉下来并说：“在这里。
You've worked hard.
你辛苦了。
You deserve this.
这是你应得的。
Here."
在这里。”
Money has always been a really stressful thing for me.
金钱对我来说一直是一件压力很大的事情。
My family didn't have a lot of money.
我的家人没有很多钱。
You have to understand my history.
你必须了解我的历史。
I was the oldest child.
我是最大的孩子。
When my dad died, I was 13.
我父亲去世时，我13岁。
My mother didn't know how to deal with it.
我妈妈不知道该如何处理。
I had three kids under me.
我手下有三个孩子。
I became the second adult in the family when I was 13 years old.
当我13岁的时候，我成为了家里的第二个成年人。
I started drinking coffee.
我开始喝咖啡。
I started going to parent-teacher meetings.
我开始参加家长会。
I was always mother to everyone else.
我一直是其他人的母亲。
And I was the head dancer in a company, and then I had my own company.
我是一个舞团的首席舞者，然后我就有了自己的舞团。
And here was someone who came along and said, "I'll take some of that weight off.
有人走过来说：“我会减轻一些体重。
I'll take care of you." And I've been one of these people who always had to do that for everyone else.
我会照顾你的。”我就是那些总是必须为其他人做这件事的人之一。
So your deepest, darkest, secret desire is that someone, somewhere will do that for you.
所以你最深、最黑暗、最秘密的愿望就是有人在某个地方为你做这件事。
The thing about him is, I think that he was probably really, really intuitive, because I think, perhaps, what he's able to do is become a mirror of your secret fantasy life, of your secret desires.
关于他的事情是，我认为他可能非常非常直观，因为我认为，也许他能够做的就是成为你秘密幻想生活和秘密欲望的一面镜子。
And I don't know, because I'd like to be a fly on the wall and see if he does that with other people, whether the fantasies are always different, or whether he's so ingrained-- See, there's two things.
我不知道，因为我想成为墙上的一只苍蝇，看看他是否对其他人也这样做，幻想是否总是不同，或者他是否如此根深蒂固——看，有两件事。
Either he's this kind of person who's so intuitive that he can create a fantasy that mirrors whatever your fantasy life is, or he picks out people who will buy his fantasy life.
要么他是那种非常直觉的人，他可以创造一个反映你幻想生活的幻想，要么他挑选出愿意购买他的幻想生活的人。
And I don't know which one it is.
而且我也不知道是哪一个。
He had this entire fiction of his life.
他一生的全部都是虚构的。
I believe some of it was fiction.
我相信其中一些是虚构的。
I'm sure some of it was true, because I don't think he would have ended up the way that he ended up if some of the stories that he told were not true.
我确信其中一些是真的，因为我认为如果他讲述的一些故事不是真的，他的结局就不会是现在这个样子。
When he told these stories, it was passionate.
当他讲述这些故事时，他的心情充满激情。
It was like the best theater you've ever attended.
这就像你去过的最好的剧院。
It was the best monologue.
这是最好的独白。
He was from Ireland.
他来自爱尔兰。
He was an earl or a lord.
他是一位伯爵或领主。
I can never figure out what those people are.
我永远无法弄清楚那些人是什么。
His father had been very prominent in politics.
他的父亲在政治上非常有名。
He had been given a different last name.
他被赋予了不同的姓氏。
He had been given the last name of the ancestral family because his father had singled him out as being the chosen son or whatever.
他被赋予了家族的姓氏，因为他的父亲把他选为被选中的儿子或其他什么。
And then his father totally mistreated him and abused him emotionally.
然后他的父亲就彻底虐待了他，在情感上虐待了他。
And the IRA blew up their home at some point.
爱尔兰共和军在某个时候炸毁了他们的家。
It was this tragic existence, this really compelling tale of a person kind of drifting through life, looking for something they could hang on to.
这是一个悲剧性的存在，一个真正引人入胜的故事，讲述了一个人在生活中漂泊，寻找他们可以依靠的东西。
He was a director.
他是一名导演。
He directed commercials for one of the big advertising agencies.
他为一家大型广告公司执导广告。
And then when his wife died, he made these brilliant commercials.
当他的妻子去世后，他制作了这些精彩的广告。
And then he sold everything he owned.
然后他卖掉了他所拥有的一切。
And he went down, and he became a mercenary fighter in border disputes down in South America.
他倒下了，成为南美洲边境争端中的一名雇佣兵。
Maybe he did that.
也许他就是这么做的。
Maybe he didn't.
也许他没有。
The problem that I still have is I don't know which were lies.
我仍然面临的问题是我不知道哪些是谎言。
I don't know what's real and what's not.
我不知道什么是真实的，什么不是。
I mean, I've sat and thought, well, that couldn't be true.
我的意思是，我坐下来想，这不可能是真的。
But I went to Ireland.
但我去了爱尔兰。
I went to the place where his house supposedly would be.
我去了他家应该在的地方。
And there is a house that underwent significant damage.
还有一所房屋遭受了严重损坏。
If I really cared to make a life project out of this, I could research every aspect of what he told me.
如果我真的想以此为人生项目，我可以研究他告诉我的各个方面。
Oh, he didn't completely disappear, though.
哦，不过他并没有完全消失。
He still will call me.
他还是会打电话给我。
I'll be cooking dinner at my house.
我会在我家做饭。
My phone number's not listed.
我的电话号码没有列出。
I've moved twice since he knew me.
自从他认识我以来，我已经搬过两次家了。
And he'll call.
他会打电话来。
"How are you?" And I'll be like, "I'm fine."
“你好吗？”我会说，“我很好。”
People have said, do you think he really loved you?
人们说，你认为他真的爱你吗？
Or people have told me, he never really loved you.
或者人们告诉我，他从来没有真正爱过你。
He just used you.
他只是利用了你。
My mother was key among that school of people.
我的母亲是这群人中的关键人物。
And this is part of what messes with my head still, because I don't believe that I could be so far off the mark.
这仍然困扰着我，因为我不相信我会偏离目标这么远。
I mean, I believe that he truly loved me.
我的意思是，我相信他是真心爱我的。
When he looked into my eyes and he said, I love you, when he calls me back and says he-- there's no need for him, at this point-- if he really is trying to make this con go down, he wouldn't try to keep in contact with me.
当他看着我的眼睛说“我爱你”时，当他给我回电话并说他——此时此刻不需要他——如果他真的想让这个骗局平息时，他就不会试图与我保持联系。
He keeps coming back.
他不断回来。
And I believe it's because he really did love me.
我相信这是因为他真的爱我。
I think for a while afterwards, I created a new fiction.
我想了一段时间之后，我创作了一部新小说。
This is a bad dream.
这是一个噩梦。
And I'm going to wake up, and he's going to come back.
我会醒来，他也会回来。
And he will have gotten this fabulous job, and he's going to pay off all these debts.
他将得到这份出色的工作，他将还清所有这些债务。
And I'm not going to have to deal with this.
我不需要处理这个问题。
It didn't happen.
它没有发生。
But he kept saying, I swear to you, I will pay you back.
但他一直说，我向你发誓，我一定会还你的。
I will make this up to you.
我会补偿你的。
I really think he believed it.
我真的认为他相信了。
I think he had no basis in reality in general.
我认为他总体上没有现实基础。
And I really wanted to believe him.
我真的很想相信他。
I really wanted to believe that he wasn't this horrible ogre who had done this to me.
我真的很想相信他不是那个对我做这种事的可怕的食人魔。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Am I not vindictive?
我这不是记仇吗？
Sometimes I'd like to kill him.
有时我真想杀了他。
Mostly I'd just like to have the dream back.
大多数时候我只是想找回梦想。
I really wish that there had been someone out there existing in the world who was who he said he was.
我真的希望世界上存在一个像他所说的那样的人。
That would be great.
那太好了。
I think that he truly, truly loved me and probably didn't want things to turn out the way they did.
我认为他真的、真的爱我，并且可能不希望事情像现在这样发展。
But he was so deeply entrenched in that.
但他对此却根深蒂固。
He couldn't say, OK, erase everything I've ever said to you.
他不能说，好吧，抹掉我对你说过的一切。
This is the real story.
这是真实的故事。
This is who I really am.
这就是真正的我。
And he may very well have thought, this is going to be the one that I'm going to change.
他很可能想到，这将是我要改变的。
He talked about having children, long-range commitment kinds of things.
他谈到了生孩子、长期承诺之类的事情。
Because the house of cards didn't fall down for at least a year and a half.
因为纸牌屋至少一年半没有倒塌。
Bills were being paid.
账单正在支付。
It was one of these catch-up games.
这是追赶比赛之一。
So maybe he thought, I'm just going to get one more credit card and pay this off to keep it afloat, because I'm going to get this job.
所以也许他想，我只需再申请一张信用卡并还清这笔钱以维持生计，因为我将得到这份工作。
And I'm going to be making $80,000 a year, and we're not going to have to worry about anything.
我每年可以赚 80,000 美元，我们不用担心任何事情。
And just the next credit card.
还有下一张信用卡。
Oh, I've got to get one more.
哦，我还得再买一张。
And I'll get one more, and I'll pay those off, just to keep it going, just keep it going.
我还会再买一份，我会还清这些，只是为了让它继续下去，让它继续下去。
For the longest time, even after I said to him, look at what you've done, look at what you've done to me, he said, I will make it up to you.
很长一段时间，即使我对他说，看看你做了什么，看看你对我做了什么，他说，我会补偿你的。
I will pay every cent back.
我会偿还每一分钱。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Maybe he just sold me all that.
也许他只是把所有这些都卖给了我。
Maybe he's the best actor in the whole world, Academy Award winner.
也许他是全世界最好的演员，奥斯卡金像奖得主。
And maybe he just creates this character, this tragic-- I don't know.
也许他只是创造了这个角色，这个悲剧——我不知道。
It's like standing on air.
就像站在空中一样。
It's like nothing is too far-fetched.
好像没有什么是太牵强的。
Nothing is impossible.
没有什么是不可能的。
It's like a whole crisis of faith.
这就像一场信仰危机。
What do you believe in?
你相信什么？
I don't know what I can believe in.
我不知道我能相信什么。
Can you believe in things you see?
你能相信你所看到的东西吗？
Can you believe in things you hold?
你能相信你所持有的东西吗？
Can you believe in looking into someone?
你能相信调查某人吗？
Can you believe when someone swears?
当有人发誓时你能相信吗？
Can you believe?
你能相信吗？
What do you believe?
你相信什么？
Once I interviewed a parapsychologist, and this is what he told me about ghosts.
有一次我采访了一位超心理学家，他告诉我关于鬼魂的事。
The peskiest ghosts, the kind that do the most haunting, are the ones who left this world so abruptly that they don't even know that they're dead.
The peskiest ghosts, the kind that do the most haunting, are the ones who left this world so abruptly that they don't even know that they're dead.
He said it's like if two people driving in a car get into this horrible car wreck where the driver is safe but the passenger is catapulted through the front windshield and dies.
He said it's like if two people driving in a car get into this horrible car wreck where the driver is safe but the passenger is catapulted through the front windshield and dies.
The parapsychologist said that the soul of the passenger can be ripped from their body so quickly that their energy remains.
超心理学家说，乘客的灵魂可以如此迅速地从他们的身体中被撕裂，以至于他们的能量仍然存在。
The specter, it's confused.
幽灵，很困惑。
Everything happened so suddenly.
一切都发生得那么突然。
And that's why it keeps bothering those it left behind.
这就是为什么它一直困扰着它留下的人。
Once you discover that everything someone has been telling you about themselves is basically nonsense, it's like you suddenly find yourself alone in that car.
Once you discover that everything someone has been telling you about themselves is basically nonsense, it's like you suddenly find yourself alone in that car.
The person who was sitting next to you no longer exists.
坐在你旁边的那个人已经不存在了。
All that's left is this vapory memory.
剩下的就只剩下这模糊的记忆了。
And figuring out what to think about the experience ends up taking people years.
人们最终要花费数年时间才能弄清楚如何看待这种体验。
You're stuck for a while between several contradictory feelings about the liar-- pity, anger, sympathy.
有一段时间，你对说谎者感到几种矛盾的感觉——怜悯、愤怒、同情。
You don't know what think.
你不知道怎么想。
You wait until you just don't care about it anymore.
等到你不再关心它的时候。
And the people I talked to, they say they view the world differently now.
和我交谈过的人说，他们现在对世界的看法不同了。
Now I don't trust anyone.
现在我不相信任何人。
My husband says, you are the most suspicious woman I've ever encountered.
我丈夫说，你是我见过的最可疑的女人。
It's like, I go through his mail.
就像，我浏览他的邮件。
Ever since then, every time I meet someone who strikes me as dishonest, there's this moment of real fear when I wonder, what could they do to me?
Ever since then, every time I meet someone who strikes me as dishonest, there's this moment of real fear when I wonder, what could they do to me?
See, it's one of the reasons why I live in this apartment alone, because I would never, ever move in with someone I didn't know.
看，这就是我独自住在这间公寓的原因之一，因为我永远不会和我不认识的人住在一起。
And even people that you do know, they don't turn out to be what you thought they were.
即使是你认识的人，他们也不会成为你想象的那样。
Our program on compulsive liars was produced by Margy Rochlin and myself, narrated by Margy Rochlin.
我们关于强迫性说谎者的节目由 Margy Rochlin 和我自己制作，由 Margy Rochlin 担任旁白。
Post-production by Peter Clowney.
彼得·克劳尼后期制作。
If you'd like a copy of this program, call us at WBEZ in Chicago, 312-832-3380.
如果您想要一份该计划的副本，请致电芝加哥的 WBEZ，电话：312-832-3380。
[FUNDING CREDITS] I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life.
[资金来源] 我是艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass)，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。