176: Two Nations, One President - This American Life

176：两个国家，一位总统

176 · This American Life · 原文

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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #176 | January 26, 2001 176: Two Nations, One President Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

00:00 00:00 文字记录分享此美国生活生活伙伴如何收听剧集推荐关于概述员工公告奖学金工作音乐在路上制作电台常见问题解答提交商品联系我们我们的其他节目商品关注我们生活伙伴订阅我们的时事通讯整集切换音频和文字记录同步文字记录 | 内容第 176 集 | 2001 年 1 月 26 日 176：两个国家，一位总统注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。

If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.

如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。

Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。

Prologue Ira Glass So we have a new president.

序言艾拉·格拉斯我们有了一位新总统。

But after the recount mess in Florida this fall and the Supreme Court decision that ended the election, some people are having a hard time moving on.

但在今年秋天佛罗里达州重新计票的混乱局面以及最高法院结束选举的决定之后，一些人很难继续前进。

Why?

为什么？

Why can't they just let it go?

为什么他们不能放手呢？

Eric Potter drove to the inauguration to protest with his wife and kids, though he has never protested anything before.

埃里克·波特（Eric Potter）开车前往就职典礼，与妻子和孩子一起抗议，尽管他以前从未抗议过任何事情。

Never before.

以前从未有过。

Ira Glass And what about this is different?

Ira Glass 这有什么不同呢？

The Constitution has been subverted and people don't seem to care.

宪法被颠覆了，人们似乎并不在意。

Were you Gore supporters during the election?

您在选举期间是戈尔的支持者吗？

Not strongly.

不强烈。

Ira Glass Are you still mad?

艾拉·格拉斯你还在生气吗？

Extremely.

极其。

If he's the rightful winner, I don't have a problem with him in the White House.

如果他是合法的获胜者，我对他在白宫没有任何意见。

But I don't believe he's the rightful winner, and we will never know that.

但我不相信他是合法的获胜者，我们永远不会知道这一点。

We should count all the votes, and that hasn't happened yet.

我们应该清点所有选票，但这还没有发生。

Republicans simply do not understand this.

共和党人根本不明白这一点。

They think the Democrats were being divisive and unreasonable during the recounts and it's just galling that they won't let it go now.

他们认为民主党在重新计票过程中存在分裂和不合理，但令人恼火的是他们现在不肯放手。

Get over it.

克服它。

I mean, there's nothing that they can do.

我的意思是，他们无能为力。

Get over it.

克服它。

Do you think there's any fair basis to anything they're saying about the Florida recounts?

你认为他们所说的关于佛罗里达州重新计票的事情有任何公平的依据吗？

No, it was such a farce, the whole thing was.

不，这真是一场闹剧，整件事就是这样。

Counting, recounting, counting, recounting.

数数，数数，数数，数数。

We could have gone and recounted all of the United States.

我们本可以去重述整个美国。

And states that Bush just barely lost, we could have gone and recounted those.

并指出布什刚刚输了，我们本可以去重述这些。

There have always been people at the extremes of the political parties who are really bitter, who are just furious at the other side.

总是有一些处于政党极端的人，他们真的很痛苦，他们只是对另一方感到愤怒。

But as this election dragged on for weeks this fall, it seemed like more and more people got caught up in those kinds of feelings.

但随着今年秋天的选举持续了数周，似乎越来越多的人陷入了这种感觉之中。

And now where are those feelings supposed to go?

现在这些感觉应该去哪里呢？

On inauguration day, 40% of Americans still thought that George Bush had not been legitimately elected as president.

就职典礼当天，40%的美国人仍然认为乔治·布什没有合法当选总统。

That's a lot of people.

那是很多人。

I think they're so divisive that even saying it's a lot of people out loud is seen as divisive.

我认为他们的分歧如此之大，以至于即使大声说出来有很多人也会被视为分歧。

When I interviewed Democrats, the thing that most of them say is that it's not that they want to throw George Bush out of office at this point.

当我采访民主党人时，他们大多数人说的是，他们现在并不是想把乔治·布什赶下台。

Feelings do not run that high.

感情并没有那么高涨。

It's more like they still have these moments of surprise when they happen to see him in the newspaper or on television.

更像是当他们碰巧在报纸或电视上看到他时，他们仍然有这些惊讶的时刻。

Like, right.

就像，对吧。

He's President.

他是总统。

It's real.

这是真的。

On the other side, a Republican named Chris Robling, a former election commissioner here in Chicago, says that since Florida, he feels a little chill between him and his Democrat friends.

另一方面，芝加哥前选举专员、共和党人克里斯·罗布林(Chris Robling)表示，自从佛罗里达州以来，他和民主党朋友之间感觉有点冷淡。

Democrats can be so arrogant when it comes to Republicans.

民主党人在对待共和党人时可以如此傲慢。

They can look down on them, and it's only gotten worse.

他们可以看不起他们，而且情况只会变得更糟。

He took a tape recorder and talked to his friend Kathleen about it.

他拿起录音机和他的朋友凯瑟琳谈论了这件事。

How does this affect your view of somebody like me?

这对你对像我这样的人的看法有何影响？

That I'm a Republican and that I was for this guy and that I was for what happened in Florida?

我是一名共和党人，我支持这个人，我支持佛罗里达州发生的事情？

You told me you weren't for what happened in Florida, you said you were ashamed of how he got elected.

你告诉我你不支持佛罗里达州发生的事情，你说你对他当选的方式感到羞耻。

I'm for the fact that he ultimately won.

我支持他最终获胜的事实。

Of course you are.

当然是。

Republicans were for power at all costs.

共和党人不惜一切代价争取权力。

That's a creepy, nasty, vicious attitude.

这是一种令人毛骨悚然、令人厌恶、恶毒的态度。

Yes.

是的。

I have thought that about you since I found out you were really a Republican.

自从我发现你确实是一名共和党人以来，我就一直这么想你。

Yeah, there's a really creepy side to you.

是的，你也有令人毛骨悚然的一面。

There is, I'm sorry.

有，对不起。

I'll probably have fewer and fewer Republican friends because I don't seem to be able to get over it.

我的共和党朋友可能会越来越少，因为我似乎无法克服它。

From WBEZ Chicago and Public Radio International, it's This American Life .

来自芝加哥 WBEZ 和国际公共广播电台的《This American Life》。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Today on our radio program, moving on after the election.

今天在我们的广播节目中，选举后继续前进。

Democrats trying to, Republicans urging them to.

民主党人试图这样做，共和党人敦促他们这样做。

Urging them with such vehemence that you get the feeling that they're not entirely over the Florida debacle either.

如此强烈地敦促他们，你会感觉他们还没有完全摆脱佛罗里达州的灾难。

Our show today in five acts.

我们今天的演出有五幕。

Act One, You're Not the President of Me, in which we examine the non-intersecting realities of the two sides in the political spectrum right now.

第一幕，你不是我的总统，我们在其中审视政治光谱中双方目前不相交的现实。

Act Two, a Brief History of Republican Time.

第二幕，共和时代简史。

Writer David Brock gives us the inside story of how we got to this point of bitterness exactly.

作家大卫·布洛克（David Brock）向我们讲述了我们是如何走到这一步的痛苦的内幕。

And it is not pretty, my friends.

这并不漂亮，我的朋友们。

Act Three, Bedroom Politics, in which a happily married couple suddenly gets politics-- different politics-- making it hard for them to move on now.

第三幕，卧室政治，一对幸福婚姻的夫妇突然陷入政治——不同的政治——让他们现在很难继续前进。

Act Four, Let Us Reason Together, in which we try to get each side to understand the other in the Supreme Court Case Bush v.

第四幕，让我们一起推理，我们试图让最高法院布什诉布什案中的双方相互理解。

Gore.

戈尔。

Act Five, What Would You Know Who Do?

第五幕，你知道谁在做什么？

A chat with an African-American minister in Florida who is trying not to be mad about the election because it is against his religion.

与佛罗里达州一位非裔美国牧师的聊天，他试图不对这次选举感到愤怒，因为这违背了他的宗教信仰。

Stay with us.

留在我们身边。

Act One, You're Not the President of Me.

第一幕，你不是我的总统。

Back when president Clinton was being impeached, at least Republicans and Democrats agreed on the basic facts-- he fooled around with an intern and he lied about it.

当克林顿总统被弹劾时，至少共和党和民主党在基本事实上达成了一致——他和一名实习生鬼混，并对此撒了谎。

The only dispute was over whether this was an important violation of the law.

唯一的争议在于这是否构成重大违法行为。

In Florida-- and who thought it would ever be possible for anyone to say this-- in Florida, things were much more bitter.

在佛罗里达州——谁认为任何人都可以这么说——在佛罗里达州，事情要痛苦得多。

Partly because the two sides did not even agree on the basic facts of what was happening.

部分原因是双方甚至在所发生事件的基本事实上都没有达成一致。

It was two entirely different pictures of the world with very little overlap.

这是两个完全不同的世界图景，几乎没有重叠。

Here is Jonathan Chait of The New Republic , a self-described liberal, telling the story of the recount with David Horowitz of Salon Magazine , a self-described conservative.

以下是自称自由派的《新共和》的乔纳森·柴特 (Jonathan Chait) 与自称保守派的《沙龙杂志》的大卫·霍洛维茨 (David Horowitz) 讲述的重新计票的故事。

Jonathan Chait starts.

乔纳森·柴特开始。

Statistically, you can prove without a doubt that Al Gore would have won Florida if it were not for faulty machines.

从统计数据来看，你可以毫无疑问地证明，如果机器没有故障，阿尔·戈尔将赢得佛罗里达州。

Now from there, you can argue--

现在，你可以争论——

Well, there are several ways to do it.

嗯，有几种方法可以做到这一点。

The best is the way the Miami Herald did it, which is they did a precinct-by-precinct analysis and simply looked at how many non-votes there were in each precinct.

最好的是《迈阿密先驱报》的做法，他们对每个选区进行了分析，并简单地查看每个选区有多少无票数。

And then they found that Gore would have won by 20,000 votes.

然后他们发现戈尔会以 20,000 票的优势获胜。

So for each precinct you say OK, all these people whose votes we do know, they split this way.

因此，对于每个选区，你说好吧，所有这些我们确实知道选票的人，他们都是这样分配的。

This many for Gore, this many for Bush.

戈尔有这么多，布什也有这么多。

Let's just ascribe to the uncounted ballots the same proportions, and then you get your number.

That's exactly right.

完全正确。

So if you do that, you know that Gore wins.

所以如果你这么做了，你就知道戈尔赢了。

And this is indisputable.

这是无可争议的。

This is statistically as sound as anything can be.

这在统计上是最合理的。

The only reason that there's this big hoopla on the left is because Al Gore set out to steal the election after it was over.

左翼如此大肆喧嚣的唯一原因是阿尔·戈尔在选举结束后开始窃取选举结果。

There's this line about, let's count every vote.

有这样一句话，让我们来清点每张选票。

Al Gore didn't want to count every vote.

阿尔·戈尔不想清点每一张选票。

What about the Republican counties in Florida?

佛罗里达州的共和党县怎么样？

There were six times as many as there were Democratic counties that didn't get their votes counted.

未统计选票的民主党县数量是其六倍。

By focusing on four counties in Florida, which are overwhelmingly Democratic, where Democrats controlled the judging process and the whole process, that's just a prescription.

通过关注佛罗里达州的四个县，这四个县绝大多数是民主党人，民主党人控制着评审过程和整个过程，这只是一个处方。

A prescription for a kind of civil war.

一种内战的处方。

Because what could Republicans do?

因为共和党人能做什么呢？

They had to stop the Democrats from manufacturing a vote.

他们必须阻止民主党制造投票。

If you acknowledge that Gore would have won if it were not for faulty voting machines which, again, is indisputable, then the worst thing you could say about Gore is that he's trying to steal what was already rightfully his.

如果你承认如果投票机没有故障的话戈尔就会获胜，这也是无可争议的，那么关于戈尔你能说的最糟糕的事情就是他试图窃取本来就属于他的东西。

Now, it may be the case that the physical evidence for resolving that problem in Florida is not strong enough.

It may be the case that dimpled chads aren't clear enough marks of a voter's intent.

可能的情况是，酒窝状的碎屑不足以清楚地表明选民的意图。

But I guess I would have two answers to that.

但我想对此我会有两个答案。

First of all, you might as well try.

首先，你不妨尝试一下。

Number two, anyone who's actually seen a ballot in Florida-- which I have-- would, I think, conclude that a dimpled chad is an attempt at a vote.

第二，我想，任何真正在佛罗里达州看过选票的人（我也见过）都会得出这样的结论：一个有酒窝的乍得是一次投票的尝试。

We've had a few these ballots floating around our office and we've tried to play with them.

我们的办公室里飘荡着一些这样的选票，我们尝试着利用它们。

And none of us has been able to create a dimpled chad unless there's something blocking the ballot.

Now the reason that's important, people might forget, is that the democratic theory of why you have dimpled ballots is that something blocks the ballot.

人们可能会忘记，这一点很重要的原因是，民主理论认为选票上有凹痕是因为有东西阻挡了选票。

Either it's misaligned in the machine or all the chads that fell through in the machine built up to the point where it's blocking the hole and you can't punch the chad cleanly through because something's behind it.

要么它在机器中未对准，要么所有落入机器中的碎屑堆积到了堵塞孔的程度，并且您无法将碎屑干净地打穿，因为它后面有东西。

The Republican theory is that voters were putting their stylus down on the Gore hole and then changing their mind by the thousands.

共和党的理论是，选民们把笔放在戈尔洞上，然后成千上万地改变了主意。

But if you look at one of these ballots, you realize it really can't be done.

但如果你看看其中一张选票，你就会意识到这确实不可能做到。

If you're able to punch through, you can't create a dimple.

So the fact of the dimple being there is evidence of an inability to punch through to the chad.

因此，存在酒窝的事实证明无法打穿乍得。

When the votes were counted, these people bent the ballots, popped the chads, and they just attempted it in front of the whole nation and it didn't work.

当计票时，这些人弯曲了选票，弹出了乍得，他们只是在全国面前尝试这样做，但没有成功。

Do you think there could have been a way to get a fair count of these dimpled chads?

您认为是否有办法对这些有凹痕的碎屑进行公平计数？

No. The only fair account is the machine count with all its unfairnesses, if that's not too paradoxical.

Machines, so they make mistakes, it tends to be distributed evenly or, at least, blindly.

There's no way to hand count and make it fair, because it's subjective.

Well, I think people should just let it go.

好吧，我认为人们应该放手。

The election is over.

选举结束了。

You can't, in a country of 300 million people, adjudicate this ad infinitum.

在一个拥有三亿人口的国家，你不可能无限地裁决这个广告。

You just can't run a country that way.

你不能这样管理一个国家。

There is no actual count.

没有实际计数。

That's what people have to understand.

这就是人们必须理解的。

I really think this is the worst thing I've ever seen happen in politics, as long as I've been following it.

I guess I regard Bush as illegitimate.

我想我认为布什是非法的。

I think about it every time Bush says something like, even though I won by a narrow margin.

每当布什说类似的话时，我都会想到这一点，尽管我以微弱优势获胜。

Well what if you lost?

好吧，如果你输了怎么办？

What if it was a negative 500,000 margin?

如果保证金为负 50 万怎么办？

Stop with the saying this is an illegitimate president.

He got 49 million votes or something.

他得到了 4900 万张选票什么的。

It was a very close election, it could have gone either way.

这是一场非常接近的选举，无论结果如何。

And start participating in a constructive process to bring the sides together.

并开始参与建设性进程，使双方走到一起。

(HOST) IRA GLASS: David Horowitz, his new book is called The Art of Political War , and Jonathan Chait of The New Republic .

（主持人）艾拉·格拉斯（IRA GLASS）：大卫·霍洛维茨（David Horowitz），他的新书《政治战争的艺术》，以及乔纳森·柴特（Jonathan Chait）的《新共和》。

Hearing them side by side reminds me of a conversation I had at the inauguration last week with a World War II vet, a Republican donor from Michigan named Robert Brown, who I ran into right by the reviewing stands at the White House.

并排听到他们的声音让我想起上周在就职典礼上与一位二战老兵的一次谈话，他是一位来自密歇根州的共和党捐助者，名叫罗伯特·布朗，我就在白宫的检阅台上遇到了他。

So you don't understand their arguments at all?

所以你根本不明白他们的论点？

No, I don't understand them at all.

不，我根本不理解他们。

I don't think they were valid at all.

我认为它们根本无效。

I'm sure they wonder, as I wonder, I wonder what goes through their mind to think as they do, and they wonder what goes through my mind.

我确信他们想知道，就像我想知道的那样，我想知道他们在思考时脑子里想的是什么，他们也想知道我脑子里想的是什么。

Do you think politics are getting more bitter?

您认为政治变得更加激烈吗？

Oh yes.

哦是的。

Terribly so.

非常如此。

Ira Glass And is that a bad thing?

Ira Glass 那是一件坏事吗？

Is that worrisome?

这令人担忧吗？

Very worrisome to me.

让我非常担心。

I don't know where it's going to end.

我不知道它会在哪里结束。

Fortunately, I don't have to see too much more of it.

You do.

你做。

You'll have to see a lot of it.

你一定会看到很多。

And maybe you can learn to live with it.

也许你可以学会忍受它。

I'm not sure I can learn to live with it.

我不确定我能否学会忍受它。

But I guess every cloud has a silver lining.

但我想每朵乌云都有一线希望。

And at my age, I don't have to live with it too much longer.

That's right.

这是正确的。

The one comfort in dying someday is knowing you never have to watch Crossfire again.

Indeed it is, Act Two, A Brief History of Republican Time.

So how did we get to this point where politics is so bitter?

David Brock has a particular view of this.

大卫·布洛克对此有特殊的看法。

He used to be a right-wing journalistic hitman.

他曾经是一名右翼新闻杀手。

First, he wrote an investigative book about Anita Hill.

Then he was the very first reporter to mention Paula Jones by name in a story, which led, you could say, to her going public and suing Clinton, which led to him lying in a deposition-- lies which later became grounds for his impeachment.

然后，他是第一个在报道中提到保拉·琼斯名字的记者，你可以说，这导致了她公开起诉克林顿，这导致他在证词中撒谎——这些谎言后来成为弹劾他的理由。

Brock published an apology to Clinton.

布洛克发表了向克林顿道歉的文章。

He is uniquely situated to give a first-hand history of recent politics.

The vein-popping conservative backlash Americans witnessed after the 2000 election is rooted in the war over judicial nominees that began in the late 1980s when Presidents Reagan and Bush tried to roll back decades of socially progressive court decisions by confirming conservative judges to the bench.

2000 年大选后，美国人目睹了保守派的强烈抵制，其根源在于 20 世纪 80 年代末开始的司法提名之战，当时里根总统和布什总统试图通过确认保守派法官担任法官来推翻几十年来社会进步的法院判决。

In Republican eyes, the Robert Bork nomination was the same as the Clarence Thomas hearings.

Attacks, lies and misrepresentations.

攻击、谎言和歪曲事实。

They vowed revenge.

他们发誓要报仇。

Newt Gingrich was in on the tone-setting war from the start.

纽特·金里奇从一开始就参与了这场定调之战。

Writing shortly after Bork's defeat, he promised to fight the Democrats quote, "with the scale and duration and savagery that is true only of civil wars."

博克失败后不久，他写道，承诺将以民主党的话说，“以只有内战才有的规模、持续时间和野蛮程度”进行战斗。

Gingrich and the people around him were not conservatives in the original sense of the word.

They were radicals who consciously adopted the street fighting political style of the '60s for their own ends.

In the early '90s, Gingrich's posse hung out at the Capitol Hill row house of Grover Norquist, an anti-tax lobbyist whom The New Republic once called the Che Guevara of the Republican revolution.

20 世纪 90 年代初，金里奇的团队在格罗弗·诺奎斯特 (Grover Norquist) 位于国会山的排屋里闲逛。格罗弗·诺奎斯特是一位反税收游说者，《新共和》杂志曾将他称为共和革命中的切·格瓦拉 (Che Guevara)。

At Norquist parties, where conservatives convene to drink kegs and grouse about the latest liberal outrages, I ran into former Reagan and Bush speechwriter Peggy Noonan, Weekly Standard editor William Kristol, conservative pundit Laura Ingraham, Wall Street Journal editorial writer John Fund, and many of the figures you saw kicking and screaming on TV about the stolen election.

在诺奎斯特聚会上，保守派聚集在一起喝酒，抱怨最新的自由主义暴行，我遇到了前里根和布什演讲撰稿人佩吉·努南、《标准周刊》编辑威廉·克里斯托尔、保守派专家劳拉·英格拉汉姆、《华尔街日报》社论作家约翰·范德，以及许多你在电视上看到的对选举被盗的人又踢又叫的人物。

The integrity of ballots was the last thing I ever thought this crowd would get worked up over.

Norquist kept a pet boa constrictor named Lysander Spooner, after a turn-of-the-century anarchist.

诺奎斯特养了一条宠物蟒蛇，名叫莱桑德·斯普纳（Lysander Spooner），以世纪之交的无政府主义者的名字命名。

A majestic portrait of Lenin graced Norquist's living room wall.

诺奎斯特客厅的墙上挂着一幅雄伟的列宁肖像。

Incongruously for such a right wing crowd, Peter Paul and Mary tunes played on the stereo.

对于这样的右翼人群来说，音响里播放着《彼得·保罗和玛丽》的曲子，这与这样的右翼人群显得格格不入。

I asked Norquist about this once and he told me it was OK, since the '60s left wing was being destroyed.

我曾经问过诺奎斯特这个问题，他告诉我没关系，因为 60 年代的左翼正在被摧毁。

After the Cold War, Gingrich and company candidly recognized that the Cold War's demonizing, us-versus-them worldview could still be useful.

冷战结束后，金里奇和他的同伴坦率地认识到，冷战时期妖魔化的“我们与他们”的世界观仍然有用。

They just turned it against their domestic enemy.

他们只是把它用来对付他们的国内敌人。

Now it was the Democrats they called unprincipled, immoral, and un-American.

The shift from one enemy to another culminated at the Republican National Convention in 1992 in Houston, where RNC Chairman Rich Bond stood on the convention floor and said, of the Clintons and their supporters, we are America.

从一个敌人到另一个敌人的转变在 1992 年休斯敦共和党全国代表大会上达到了顶峰，当时共和党全国委员会主席里奇·邦德站在会议场地上说，谈到克林顿夫妇及其支持者，我们就是美国。

Those other people are not.

其他人则不然。

Republicans have never forgotten that in 1992, the ballots cast for Ross Perot combined with those cast for George Bush constituted a majority of the electorate.

共和党人永远不会忘记，1992年，罗斯·佩罗的选票和乔治·布什的选票一起构成了选民的多数。

In their minds, the will of the people clearly favored conservative leadership.

在他们看来，人民的意愿显然有利于保守派领导。

On election night in 1992, then-Senate Minority Leader Bob Dole went on national television and denounced the Clinton-Gore ticket, which had won with 43% of the vote, as illegitimate.

1992 年选举之夜，当时的参议院少数党领袖鲍勃·多尔 (Bob Dole) 在国家电视台上谴责以 43% 的选票获胜的克林顿-戈尔的竞选不合法。

That made it possible to say and do anything to stop them.

这使得我们可以说任何话、做任何事情来阻止他们。

And boy, did we try.

天哪，我们尝试过吗？

The American Spectator, for example, spent $2.4 million looking for dirt on the Clintons, including sending me to Arkansas to chase down outlandish stories linking Clinton to drug running and murder.

例如，《美国观察家》花费了 240 万美元寻找克林顿夫妇的丑闻，其中包括派我去阿肯色州追查将克林顿与贩毒和谋杀联系起来的离奇故事。

I'd come back telling them the stories weren't true.

我回来告诉他们这些故事不是真的。

They'd figure out a way to publish them anyway.

无论如何，他们会找到一种方法来发布它们。

Riding a wave of anti-Clinton sentiment, the Gingrich revolution swept into power in 1994.

In came a generation of right-wing rabble-rousers whose politics seemed based as much on raw emotion and invective as conservative ideals.

一代右翼煽动者出现了，他们的政治似乎既基于原始情感和谩骂，又基于保守主义理想。

The radical right wasn't pretending to be outraged at Clinton for dramatic effect; the rage was real, even when they knew they were stretching the facts to make their case.

极右派假装对克林顿感到愤怒并不是为了达到戏剧性的效果；而是假装对克林顿感到愤怒。 the rage was real, even when they knew they were stretching the facts to make their case.

Beginning with the famous election night party that Laura Ingraham and I threw to celebrate the 1994 election, my house in Georgetown became the center of social life for the revolution.

从我和劳拉·英格拉汉姆为庆祝 1994 年大选而举办的著名选举之夜派对开始，我在乔治敦的家成为了革命社会生活的中心。

The highlight of my dinner parties was always a dramatic reading from Gennifer Flowers's steamy book, Passion and Betrayal.

Here's a typical passage.

这是一个典型的段落。

"Yes, I found Bill Clinton incredibly sexy.

“是的，我发现比尔·克林顿非常性感。

I can still remember the way he had of staring at me.

我仍然记得他盯着我的眼神。

He did more than just mentally undress me.

他所做的不仅仅是在精神上脱掉我的衣服。

He was visually seducing me, and he made sure I knew it."

When Gingrich's extreme anti-government agenda fell flat, furious Republicans fought back.

当金里奇的极端反政府议程落空时，愤怒的共和党人进行了反击。

GOP congressional investigation staffers, together with friends of mine who worked for Kenneth Starr, quickly generated charges, counter-charges, conspiracy theories, and rumors designed to depict the Clintons as criminals.

共和党国会调查人员，以及我为肯尼斯·斯塔尔工作的朋友，很快就提出了指控、反指控、阴谋论和谣言，旨在将克林顿夫妇描绘成罪犯。

After I introduced Paula Jones to the world in the pages of the American Spectator , I was one of the right wing's golden boys and I was in the thick of it all.

当我在《美国观察家》的版面中向全世界介绍保拉·琼斯之后，我就成为了右翼的金童之一，并且深陷其中。

We were on a mission.

我们肩负着使命。

Among Clinton's foes, tempers boiled over as the promised indictments failed to materialize and Clinton won reelection handily.

Tired of running down dead ends, I bailed out soon afterward.

But the right never stopped believing that the Clinton-Gore administration was a depraved, criminal syndicate.

In the fall of 1997, months before the Monica Lewinsky scandal broke, I attended a dinner given by the American Spectator .

The subject of discussion that evening was how to build support for an impeachment resolution, introduced by representative Bob Barr of Georgia.

John Fund from the Wall Street Journal said it was quote, "not a matter of law but of political will."

The Republicans saw their subsequent failure to remove Clinton from office as a historic defeat, but they didn't blame themselves.

In their minds, they had simply been outmaneuvered by the oily Clinton-Gore spin machine, tricky lawyers, and the liberal-leaning media.

在他们看来，他们只是被油腻的克林顿-戈尔的旋转机器、狡猾的律师和自由主义倾向的媒体打败了。

And they would do everything they could to ensure that nothing like this ever happened again.

This is the political backdrop for Florida's recent drama.

And it explains why Republicans so quickly concluded that Florida Democrats were colluding with Gore to steal the election, and why they were so adamant about drawing their line in the sand.

这也解释了为什么共和党人如此迅速地得出结论，认为佛罗里达州民主党人与戈尔勾结以窃取选举结果，以及为什么他们如此坚决地划清界限。

It also explains why, during the recount, polls showed that 75% of Democrats would have accepted Bush as president, but barely 60% of Republicans would accept Gore.

这也解释了为什么在重新计票期间，民调显示75%的民主党人会接受布什担任总统，但只有60%的共和党人会接受戈尔。

During the disputed recount and in the months since, when the mainstream press talks about what happened in Florida, the story it tells, the story that's become the accepted version of events, is that the Democrats and Republicans behave the same as each other.

在有争议的重新计票期间以及此后的几个月里，当主流媒体谈论佛罗里达州发生的事情时，它所讲述的故事，已经成为事件的公认版本的故事是，民主党和共和党的行为是一样的。

That their actions were morally equivalent.

他们的行为在道德上是等同的。

I don't think that's true.

我不认为这是真的。

Inside the courts, they might have fought with equal fierceness and self-interest, but outside the courtroom Bush and his allies showed a willingness to rely on rhetoric and tactics that the Democrats didn't.

在法庭内，他们可能会以同样的激烈程度和自身利益进行斗争，但在法庭外，布什及其盟友表现出愿意依赖民主党所不具备的言辞和策略。

Bush's top strategist, former Secretary of State James Baker, portrayed court decisions that went against Bush as partisan and illegitimate.

Republicans charged that Gore could not pull ahead without cheating and stealing.

House Majority Whip Tom DeLay decried a theft in process and George Will referred to slow motion larceny.

Republican morality czar William Bennett said a Gore victory in Florida would be illegitimate.

Former Senator Bob Dole suggested that Republicans might boycott a Gore inaugural.

During the controversy over military ballots, Bush spokesman Marc Racicot, the governor of Montana, all but called the Gore forces unpatriotic, saying that they had gone to war against the men and women who serve in our armed forces.

在有关军事选票的争议中，布什发言人、蒙大拿州州长马克·拉西科特几乎称戈尔部队不爱国，称他们对我们武装部队中的男女军人发动了战争。

There's no equivalent on the Democratic side to all this.

The Gore team was under orders not to attack the Republicans or impugn the integrity of the judicial process.

When Gore spokesman Chris LeHane did otherwise and called Katherine Harris commissar, the Gore staff was ordered not to let it happen again.

Perhaps most disturbing were reports of Republican violence.

Democratic officials in Florida said they were kicked, chased, and shouted down by Republican protesters.

In Miami Dade county, an angry mob of Republican operatives, organized through Congressman Tom DeLay's office in Washington, stormed the recount center at a critical juncture.

在迈阿密戴德县，一群愤怒的共和党人通过国会议员汤姆·迪莱在华盛顿的办公室组织起来，在关键时刻冲进了重新计票中心。

New York Republican Congressman John Sweeney commanded the troops to shut it down, according to the Wall Street Journal .

据《华尔街日报》报道，纽约共和党众议员约翰·斯威尼命令军队将其关闭。

When the demonstrators later held a Thanksgiving Day party, George W.

当示威者后来举行感恩节派对时，乔治·W·布什 (George W.

Bush and Dick Cheney called in and joked about the disruption.

布什和迪克·切尼打电话过来，拿这次破坏开玩笑。

Again, there was no equivalent to this on the Democratic side.

同样，民主党方面也没有类似的举措。

Now that the dust has settled, everyone seems to be proceeding as if none of this nastiness ever happened.

现在尘埃落定，每个人都表现得好像这一切都没有发生过一样。

I can't forget, even if I want to.

即使我想忘记，我也无法忘记。

Watching Bush take the oath of office as James Baker and the Supreme Court looked on, it was hard not to think of the ugliness that had got him to this point, and it's hard to believe that we've seen the last of it.

看着布什在詹姆斯·贝克和最高法院的注视下宣誓就职，很难不去想他是如何丑陋地走到这一步的，而且很难相信我们已经看到了最后这样的场景。

George Bush ran as a different kind of Republican-- a uniter, not a divider, and certainly not a hater.

乔治·布什以另一种共和党人的身份参选——团结者，而不是分裂者，当然也不是仇恨者。

Then came Florida.

然后是佛罗里达州。

Last week I couldn't help notice a photograph in the New York Times of conservative strategists planning to support the nomination of John Ashcroft for Attorney General.

上周，我不禁注意到《纽约时报》上刊登的一张保守派战略家计划支持提名约翰·阿什克罗夫特担任司法部长的照片。

And Ashcroft doesn't exactly fit anyone's notion of unity or inclusiveness.

阿什克罗夫特并不完全符合任何人的团结或包容观念。

The meeting was being run by Grover Norquist, the Gingrich protege with a pet boa constrictor.

会议由格罗弗·诺奎斯特（Grover Norquist）主持，他是金里奇的门生，带着一条宠物蟒蛇。

I wondered if everything I had seen on the right in the '90s was just a prelude to what's about to happen.

我想知道 90 年代我在右边看到的一切是否只是即将发生的事情的前奏。

David Brock.

大卫·布洛克.

A version of this story appears in the issue of Talk Magazine , which is now on newsstands.

这个故事的一个版本出现在《Talk》杂志上，该杂志现已在报摊上出售。

Brock is writing a memoir of his years in the conservative movement and his break from it.

布洛克正在写一本回忆录，讲述他在保守派运动中的岁月以及他与保守派运动的决裂。

It'll be out in the fall.

秋天就会出来。

Act Three, Bedroom Politics.

第三幕，卧室政治。

When it comes to political fighting, there is no more intimate a space than a marriage, where you have to get along, where you have to figure out how to move on and get over disagreements.

当谈到政治斗争时，没有比婚姻更亲密的空间了，你们必须和睦相处，必须弄清楚如何继续前进并克服分歧。

Scott Rayson is a corporate lawyer and his wife Carrie is a social worker which, you might think already is a recipe for political fighting right there.

斯科特·雷森（Scott Rayson）是一名公司律师，他的妻子凯莉（Carrie）是一名社会工作者，你可能认为这已经是政治斗争的秘诀。

But in fact, they have always voted together in 10 years of marriage.

但事实上，他们结婚10年始终是一起投票的。

They both supported Bill Clinton.

他们都支持比尔·克林顿。

And then something changed.

然后事情发生了变化。

At some point over the summer, I believe we were eating dinner one night, and Scott said, you know I think I'm going to vote for Bush.

在夏天的某个时候，我相信有一天晚上我们正在吃晚饭，斯科特说，你知道我想我会投票给布什。

And the only other time in our marriage that I have been that caught off guard was years ago.

在我们的婚姻中，我唯一一次措手不及的是几年前。

We have three little boys.

我们有三个小男孩。

And when the second one was about a year old, I started lobbying for a third child.

当第二个孩子一岁左右时，我开始游说要第三个孩子。

And I would swear we'd had that conversation, that if things went well, we would try and have three children.

我发誓我们已经进行过这样的谈话，如果一切顺利，我们会尝试生三个孩子。

And finally one morning Scott sat down and took me by the shoulders and he said, I'm not sure you listen to me anymore.

最后有一天早上，斯科特坐下来，抓住我的肩膀，他说，我不确定你是否还会再听我说话。

I'm not sure I want another baby.

我不确定我是否想要另一个孩子。

And it felt like the ground shifted under my feet.

感觉就像我脚下的地面在移动。

It was one of those marital moments where you think, oh, this could be a problem.

这是婚姻中你会想的时刻之一，哦，这可能是个问题。

And in the same way, he said it in the same way, he said, I'm not sure I want to have another baby.

同样，他也以同样的方式说，他说，我不确定我是否想要另一个孩子。

He said, I think I might vote for Bush.

他说，我想我可能会投票给布什。

Was it one of these moments where you just felt like, do I know you?

是不是有这样的时刻，你只是想，我认识你吗？

Oh, sure.

哦，当然。

Scott Rayson I think we watched Al Gore's speech, his acceptance speech, and our reactions to it were very different.

斯科特·雷森我认为我们观看了阿尔·戈尔的演讲，他的获奖感言，我们对此的反应非常不同。

And that's the first time it became obvious that TV was going to be a problem for us.

这是第一次明显看出电视将成为我们的问题。

So as election season unfolded, would you watch, for example, the debates together?

因此，随着选举季节的展开，您会一起观看辩论吗？

We weren't able to do that.

我们无法做到这一点。

We watched them in separate rooms.

我们在不同的房间里观看他们。

So what room were you in and what room was he in?

那么你在哪个房间，他在哪个房间？

Usually I sent him down to the-- there's an old TV.

通常我会把他送到——那里有一台旧电视。

We have two televisions in our house.

我们家里有两台电视。

There's a television that's down in a sub-basement that the children use as a playroom.

地下室里有一台电视，孩子们把它当作游戏室。

So you would banish him to the sub-basement?

那么你会把他放逐到地下室吗？

He was banished.

他被放逐了。

Scott Rayson Yeah, I mean there was-- maybe a self-imposed exile is a better way to put it.

斯科特·雷森（Scott Rayson）是的，我的意思是——也许自我放逐是更好的表达方式。

And I'd go down in our playroom and watch and she'd be in the kitchen watching.

我会去我们的游戏室观看，而她会在厨房观看。

And you could hear the two of us talking at the TV at just the opposite times saying just the opposite things.

你可以听到我们两个人在相反的时间在电视上说话，说着相反的话。

Were there moments between you when there was just an air of tension because of politics?

你们之间是否有过因为政治而气氛紧张的时刻？

Yeah, there were several times.

是的，有好几次了。

When it really first dawned on me that we can't just accidentally be watching this coverage in separate rooms, was one night at dinner and she just slammed a plate down in front of me and she just said, so tell me why is it that you're going to vote for George Bush?

当我第一次意识到我们不能不小心在不同的房间里观看这个报道时，有一次晚上吃晚饭时，她把一个盘子摔在我面前，她只是说，所以告诉我为什么你要投票给乔治·布什？

I was still struggling to make him change his mind.

我仍在努力让他改变主意。

And I really did work very hard.

而且我确实非常努力。

And you see, I'd been successful in the past.

你看，我过去很成功。

So it was really hard for me to accept that I couldn't convince him, in some way, that what he was doing was wrong.

所以我真的很难接受我无法在某种程度上让他相信他所做的事情是错误的。

My whole premise was well, the election will be over on the first Tuesday and we can get back to norm.

我的整个前提是，选举将在第一个星期二结束，我们可以恢复正常。

And it didn't.

但事实并非如此。

It went on for another month.

又持续了一个月。

You know, in our life together, typically you meet a couple or you meet an individual.

你知道，在我们共同的生活中，通常你会遇到一对夫妇或一个人。

And typically, Scott and I will like that person or not be terribly impressed or interested in that person for the same reasons.

通常，斯科特和我会喜欢那个人，或者出于同样的原因不会对那个人留下深刻的印象或兴趣。

We agree about people, we agree about so many things.

我们在人的问题上意见一致，在很多事情上我们也意见一致。

And somehow on this, you're not agreeing?

不知何故，你不同意这一点？

Right.

正确的。

For me, it generated a lot of anger with him.

对我来说，这对他产生了很大的愤怒。

And I just didn't get it.

我就是不明白。

And did it get such a rise of you because you felt like it wasn't Bush, per se, because it said something about Scott?

它是否让你如此兴奋，因为你觉得它本身不是布什，因为它说了一些关于斯科特的事情？

Yes, oh yes.

是的，哦，是的。

Ira Glass And what did it say about Scott?

Ira Glass 上面对斯科特说了些什么？

That he had kind of, in front of me somehow, become conservative and I wasn't aware of it.

他在我面前不知何故变得保守，而我却没有意识到。

And what does it mean to you to be conservative?

保守对你来说意味着什么？

Well, that's a good question.

嗯，这是个好问题。

What it means to be conservative for me is that you look out for your best interests, first and foremost.

对我来说，保守意味着你首先要考虑自己的最大利益。

And I don't believe that that's a good way to live.

我不认为这是一种好的生活方式。

And I don't live that way.

但我不那样生活。

I don't know the right word, really.

我真的不知道该用什么词。

I'd say I felt a little insulted by all of that.

我想说我对这一切感到有点侮辱。

Why would she think that poorly of me, when she knows me as well as she does, over this candidate?

当她像她一样了解我的时候，为什么她会对我的评价比这位候选人差呢？

And I just realized that I wasn't going to be able to talk to her.

我刚刚意识到我无法和她说话。

And that's when I just decided that it's really for the best to really just not talk about it.

就在那时，我决定最好不要谈论它。

Carrie, I understand at some point, your husband Scott got invited to the inauguration?

嘉莉，我知道在某个时候，你的丈夫斯科特被邀请参加就职典礼？

Could you tell me the story of that, please?

请你告诉我这件事的故事好吗？

Well what happened was Scott made what I would consider a pretty hefty contribution to the Republican party.

嗯，发生的事情是斯科特为共和党做出了我认为相当大的贡献。

And what we got immediately was the most outrageous mail.

我们立即收到的是最离谱的邮件。

We got so much mail from the NRA.

我们收到了很多来自全国步枪协会的邮件。

Really out-there mail from people about, you know, let's tar and feather Clinton.

人们发来的真正的邮件，你知道，让我们对克林顿进行焦油和羽毛化。

And I would just pile that up on the table every day and tell him he had more mail.

我每天都会把这些邮件堆放在桌子上并告诉他有更多邮件。

So then he gets this great, huge envelope for the inauguration and all the parties and everything.

然后他得到了这个巨大的信封，用于就职典礼和所有聚会以及所有事情。

and so I propped that up especially for him to see.

所以我特意把它举起来给他看。

But he would never have gone.

但他永远不会走。

Really?

真的吗？

He didn't have any interest in going at all?

他根本就没有兴趣去吗？

No. He's not political that way.

不，他不是那样的政治家。

He's not involved in politics that way.

他不以这种方式参与政治。

Well, I would love to have done it.

嗯，我很想这么做。

I had my little inaugural invitation and was gleefully reviewing it.

我收到了小小的就职邀请函，并兴高采烈地回顾了它。

And she just found it disgusting.

她只是觉得这很恶心。

So I didn't even suggest the possibility of going.

所以我什至没有建议去的可能性。

So you didn't even try to talk your wife into this?

所以你根本就没有试着说服你的妻子吗？

Oh no, wouldn't even have dreamed of it.

哦不，连做梦都不敢想。

Not a chance.

没有机会。

Does she know that you might have wanted to go at all?

她知道你可能真的想去吗？

No. I mean, I didn't say anything about it.

不，我的意思是，我什么也没说。

It seems like the two of you have the kind of marriage where you haven't had an issue before where you just put it aside and said, OK, we're not going to talk about this anymore.

你们两个的婚姻似乎以前没有出现过问题，只是把它放在一边说，好吧，我们不再谈论这个了。

And now you have one.

现在你有了一个。

Your first one.

你的第一个。

Well, yeah.

嗯，是的。

That's right.

这是正确的。

And I guess if you're going to have one, it's not a bad one to have.

我想如果你想要拥有一个，那也不错。

From the outside, we hear about these marriages, people with differing political views-- The Mary Matalin, James Carville marriages-- and it all sounds so lovable and cute.

从外面看，我们听说这些婚姻，有不同政治观点的人——玛丽·马塔林、詹姆斯·卡维尔的婚姻——这一切听起来都是那么可爱。

No, I don't think it's been cute.

不，我不认为这很可爱。

And I don't think I've been very lovable at all, and I haven't viewed him as being terribly lovable through all of this.

我认为我一点也不可爱，在经历这一切的过程中，我也没有认为他非常可爱。

Well, I've seen Matalin and Carville plenty of times together on television and, I don't know if you ever saw them together during the aftermath of the election, but it looked awful.

嗯，我在电视上多次看到马塔林和卡维尔在一起，我不知道你是否在选举后看到他们在一起，但这看起来很糟糕。

I'd never seen Carville so quiet.

我从来没有见过卡维尔这么安静。

She just looked hostile at him.

她只是用敌意的眼神看着他。

Are you worried about these next four years together with Bush in the White House?

您对与布什在白宫的未来四年感到担忧吗？

No. Carrie Rayson Between the two of us?

不，Carrie Rayson 就我们两个人之间？

No. Because we really do-- we work through things.

不。因为我们确实在努力解决问题。

(SUBJECT) SCOTT RAYSON: I am dreading the next election.

（主题）斯科特·雷森：我害怕下一次选举。

I think the midterms are going to be bad enough.

我认为中期选举已经够糟糕的了。

But four years from now, I think it's going to be several months of being banished to the playroom.

但四年后，我想这将是被放逐到游戏室的几个月。

I'll have to get involved in some big deal that takes me to Botswana or something so I just go off and work for a couple months.

我必须参与一些大事，需要我去博茨瓦纳或其他什么地方，所以我就出去工作几个月。

Scott and Carrie Rayson, in Nashville, Tennessee.

斯科特和凯莉·雷森，田纳西州纳什维尔。

Coming up, a love supreme, a hate supreme, we go back once more, slowly, to a certain five-to-four court decision.

接下来，一个爱至上，一个恨至上，我们再次慢慢地回到某个五对四的法庭判决。

And this time, we really, really, really use our brains.

而这一次，我们真的真的真的动动了我们的大脑。

In a minute, for Public Radio International when our program continues.

稍后，国际公共广播电台的节目继续进行。

It's This American Life , I'm Ira Glass.

这就是美国生活，我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Each week on our program, of course, we choose a theme, bring you a variety of different kinds of stories on that theme.

当然，每周我们的节目都会选择一个主题，为您带来有关该主题的各种不同类型的故事。

Today, one week into the Bush presidency, we bring you stories of people trying to move on after our bitter national election recount imbroglio.

今天，在布什就任总统一周后，我们为大家带来了一些故事，讲述了人们在痛苦的全国选举重述纠葛后试图继续前进的故事。

I don't even know what that word means, but I feel like this is my one chance to say it.

我什至不知道这个词是什么意思，但我觉得这是我唯一一次说出来的机会。

We've arrived Act Four of our program.

我们已经到了节目的第四幕。

Act Four, Let's Reason Together.

第四幕，我们一起推理。

When the Supreme Court handed down the decision that ended the election, it came and went in a day.

当最高法院做出结束选举的决定时，一天之内就结束了。

There was a flurry of commentary, some of it from people who are usually very evenhanded and calm about the court, like Jeffrey Rosen, who appears on ABC News and on NPR sometimes, who teaches law at George Washington University Law School.

出现了一系列的评论，其中一些评论来自那些通常对法庭非常公正和冷静的人，比如杰弗里·罗森(Jeffrey Rosen)，他有时出现在美国广播公司新闻(ABC News)和美国公共广播电台(NPR)上，他在乔治华盛顿大学法学院教授法律。

He was saying things like--

他说的是——

I don't want to be hyperbolic, but it's safe to say that this is the most outrageous decision that those of us who consider ourselves moderate in the legal academy have ever seen.

我不想夸张，但可以肯定地说，这是我们这些在法律学院自认为温和的人所见过的最令人愤慨的决定。

The most temperate scholars are literally at a loss for words to try to explain this decision, which was so ill-reasoned that it's impossible to view it as anything but political.

最温和的学者实际上无话可说来试图解释这个决定，这个决定是如此不合理，以至于除了政治之外不可能将其视为任何其他东西。

Was it really this bad?

事情真的有这么糟糕吗？

If so, there was a feeling among those of us who put this radio show together, that we wanted to understand exactly what was wrong with this decision.

如果是这样，那么我们这些制作这个广播节目的人就有一种感觉，我们想确切地了解这个决定到底出了什么问题。

And more than that, we wanted to believe that there is a reasonable case to be made for the decision.

更重要的是，我们希望相信该决定有合理的依据。

Thinking anything else is just too harsh.

想其他的事情都太残酷了。

So with some distance on the decision and some time, we assembled four constitutional experts-- two for and two against the decision-- to explain it.

因此，在对这一决定保持一定距离的情况下，我们花了一些时间召集了四位宪法专家——两名支持该决定，两名反对该决定——来解释它。

We figured if we had these lingering questions about the whole thing, a lot of people probably did.

我们认为，如果我们对整件事有这些挥之不去的疑问，那么很多人可能都有。

Here's what we learned.

这是我们学到的。

There are really just two parts to the decision.

该决定实际上只有两个部分。

The majority first says that the recount in Florida was violating principles of basic fairness under the equal protection clause of the constitution.

大多数人首先表示佛罗里达州的重新计票违反了宪法平等保护条款下的基本公平原则。

Then it sets out a remedy to fix that.

然后它提出了解决这个问题的补救措施。

We'll take these one at a time.

我们一次拿这些。

First, the equal protection Argument Here's Mike McConnell, one of the leading conservative Constitutional experts in the country.

首先，平等保护论点迈克·麦康奈尔是美国领先的保守派宪法专家之一。

The argument is really quite simple and common sensical, which is if there's to be a statewide recount, it has to be done on fair and equal terms with some kind of an objective standard for deciding what counts as a vote.

这个论点确实非常简单且具有普遍意义，那就是如果要在全州范围内重新计票，就必须在公平和平等的条件下进行，并采用某种客观标准来决定什么算作投票。

The Supreme Court goes into great detail about all the unfairness in the way that the Florida Supreme Court was allowing the recount to happen.

最高法院详细说明了佛罗里达州最高法院允许重新计票的所有不公平之处。

The unfairnesses include which votes got recounted and which didn't, whether the people doing the recounting were properly trained and fair, whether there was a fair way to challenge a result.

不公平之处包括哪些选票被重新计票，哪些没有重新计票，重新计票的人是否经过适当的培训和公平，是否有公平的方式来质疑结果。

Some counties counted dimpled chads one way, some counted them another way.

有些县以一种方式计算凹坑碎屑，有些则以另一种方式计算。

Palm Beach County switched standards.

棕榈滩县改变了标准。

There were reports that different teams within a county sometimes used different standards.

有报道称，一个县内的不同团队有时会使用不同的标准。

The Florida Supreme Court's decision was a mishmash of standards, which almost made it impossible that there could be a fair count in Florida.

佛罗里达州最高法院的判决是标准的混杂，这几乎使得佛罗里达州不可能进行公平的计票。

In fact, even people who have big problems with the Supreme Court decision agree that there are all sorts of unfairnesses built into what the Florida court did.

事实上，即使是那些对最高法院的判决有很大异议的人也同意佛罗里达州法院的做法存在各种不公平之处。

The question is whether these unfairnesses are so bad that one could conclude that the Florida court had actually left the realm of normal judicial interpretation, leaving aside Florida law entirely, leaving aside impartiality, and committing what the Supreme Court calls, scarily, a non-judicial act.

问题是，这些不公平现象是否严重到人们可以得出这样的结论：佛罗里达州法院实际上已经脱离了正常司法解释的范围，完全抛开了佛罗里达州法律，抛开了公正性，并犯下了最高法院所说的可怕的非司法行为。

Only then can the US Supreme Court intervene.

只有这样美国最高法院才能介入。

I was not a fan of the Florida Supreme Court's decision.

我不喜欢佛罗里达州最高法院的判决。

Again, Jeffrey Rosen.

又是杰弗里·罗森。

Jeffrey Rosen The justices had gone too far in changing the counting standards and imposing a new deadline.

杰弗里·罗森（Jeffrey Rosen）法官们在改变计票标准和设定新的截止日期方面做得太过分了。

But even people like me, who have questions about the Florida Supreme Court, can't claim that it was lawless beyond the realm of reasonable debate.

但即使是像我这样对佛罗里达州最高法院有疑问的人，也不能声称它超出了合理辩论的范围，无法无天。

It was based on a series of judicial precedents in Florida, going back to the early 20th century.

它基于佛罗里达州的一系列司法先例，可追溯到 20 世纪初。

In contrast, says Rosen, the Supreme Court's decision cites a few precedents.

罗森说，相比之下，最高法院的判决引用了一些先例。

But they either do not support the case or, sometimes, precedents seem to go against the decision in Bush versus Gore.

但他们要么不支持该案，要么有时先例似乎与布什诉戈尔案的判决相悖。

For instance, in the past conservatives on the court have said that you have to prove that discrimination is intentional before it is a real violation of the equal protection clause.

例如，过去法庭上的保守派人士曾表示，必须证明歧视是故意的，然后才是真正违反平等保护条款。

Indeed, in the affirmative action and civil rights cases and the voting rights cases too, they'd gone to great lengths to stress that voting systems that had the inadvertent effect of diluting the voting strength of African American voters but were not intended to disadvantage African Americans are not Constitutional violations.

事实上，在平权行动、民权案件以及投票权案件中，他们竭尽全力强调，投票制度无意中削弱了非裔美国人选民的投票力量，但无意使非裔美国人处于不利地位，这并不违反宪法。

The conservatives told us again and again, in cases like the Mobile case, that you need intentional discrimination.

保守派一次又一次地告诉我们，在像莫比尔案这样的案件中，你需要故意歧视。

No one is claiming here that the different counting standards-- whether imposed by the court or by the Florida legislature-- constitute intentional discrimination.

这里没有人声称不同的计数标准——无论是法院还是佛罗里达州立法机构规定的——构成故意歧视。

I try to run through each method of interpretation.

我尝试着把每一种解释方法都贯穿一遍。

I'm literally at a loss to defend this decision.

我实在无法为这个决定辩护。

Even legal experts who support this Supreme Court decision agree that the precedents cited by the majority don't really say much that backs up the decision.

即使是支持最高法院这一裁决的法律专家也认为，大多数人引用的先例并没有真正支持这一裁决。

Again, here's Mike McConnell.

迈克·麦康奈尔再次报道。

I don't think that this case is decided on the basis of precedence.

我不认为这个案子是根据优先顺序来决定的。

I think it was decided on the basis of a pretty common sensical understanding of fairness.

我认为这是基于对公平的相当普遍的理性理解而做出的决定。

That when you're going to have a statewide recount in a single jurisdiction, that they have to count all the votes the same way.

当你要在一个司法管辖区进行全州范围内的重新计票时，他们必须以相同的方式计算所有选票。

Here's Greg Sisk from Drake Law School, another supporter of the decision.

来自德雷克法学院的格雷格·西斯克是该决定的另一位支持者。

In my view, if most people actually read this 12-page decision and looked at the listing of the problems with the unfairness of the approach that the Florida Supreme Court had set up, that we would reach a consensus-- yeah, that's not a very good way to do things.

在我看来，如果大多数人真正阅读了这份长达 12 页的决定，并查看了佛罗里达州最高法院所制定的不公平做法所列出的问题，我们就会达成共识——是的，这不是一个很好的做事方式。

And the only thing that we'd be left to decide is, is it unconstitutional, then, to do it that way?

我们唯一需要决定的是，这样做是否违宪？

In the end, there is simply a great divide between the people who support this decision and those who impose it.

最终，支持这一决定的人和强制执行这一决定的人之间存在着巨大的分歧。

And at one level, the divide is not over the reasoning in the decision.

在某种程度上，分歧并不在于决策的推理。

The divide is over whether or not they see the Florida court's recount as being profoundly flawed and deeply unfair.

分歧在于他们是否认为佛罗里达州法院的重新计票存在严重缺陷和严重不公平。

If they do, then they conclude that there was enough of a problem to justify the very unusual step of the Supreme Court jumping in.

如果他们这样做了，那么他们就会得出结论，问题已经足够严重，足以证明最高法院介入这一非常不寻常的步骤是合理的。

If they don't, then the logic of the decision dissolves.

如果他们不这样做，那么决策的逻辑就会消失。

This comes up over and over when you talk to the two sides.

当你与双方交谈时，这个问题会反复出现。

Take two of the arguments against the decision that you've probably heard on the news at some point.

举两个你可能在新闻中听到过的反对该决定的论点。

Critics said that it was grotesque for the Supreme Court to stop the Florida recount on equal protection grounds when the point of the recount was to give equal protection to the unfortunate voters who lived in districts with inferior, less-reliable voting equipment-- the punch card ballots.

批评者表示，最高法院以平等保护为由阻止佛罗里达州重新计票是荒唐的，因为重新计票的目的是为居住在投票设备较差、不太可靠的地区的不幸选民提供平等保护——打孔卡选票。

Critics also said that the US Supreme Court put the Florida court into a kind of Catch-22 situation.

批评者还表示，美国最高法院将佛罗里达州法院置于一种“第二十二条军规”的境地。

Here's how this works.

这是它的工作原理。

The Supreme Court first told Florida to be careful, not to change the rules of the election after election day.

最高法院首先告诉佛罗里达州要小心，不要在选举日之后改变选举规则。

Don't go in, don't muck around with the law, that would be unconstitutional.

不要进去，不要破坏法律，那是违宪的。

So the Florida court refused to set a statewide standard for counting ballots because that might be seen as altering the law.

因此，佛罗里达州法院拒绝制定全州范围内的计票标准，因为这可能会被视为改变法律。

Then the Supreme Court spun around and overturned them, saying no, you should have imposed a statewide standard in the interest of fairness.

然后最高法院转而推翻了他们，说不，为了公平起见，你应该在全州范围内实施标准。

Faced with both of these criticisms, supporters of the equal protection argument are unmoved.

面对这两种批评，平等保护论的支持者不为所动。

Because, again, in their view the bottom line is that there were just grave problems with the Florida recount that the Florida court needed to fix.

因为，在他们看来，底线是佛罗里达州重新计票存在严重问题，佛罗里达州法院需要解决。

If, on election day, some voters faced worse voting equipment than others, well this recount scheme-- in their view, impossibly biased towards the Democrats in a few select areas that had been hand-picked by Gore, this scheme would not make things any fairer.

如果在选举日，一些选民面临着比其他选民更差的投票设备，那么这个重新计票计划——在他们看来，在戈尔亲自挑选的几个选定领域不可能对民主党产生偏见，这个计划不会让事情变得更公平。

And if the Florida election law was so vague that it was impossible to invent a fair, statewide standard for a recount without changing the law, then it's better to just shut down the recount.

如果佛罗里达州选举法如此模糊，以至于在不改变法律的情况下不可能发明一个公平的、全州范围的重新计票标准，那么最好停止重新计票。

And what's the loss?

损失是什么？

After all, recounting in a biased way is no better than not recounting at all.

毕竟，以有偏见的方式叙述并不比根本不叙述好。

Again, Mike McConnell.

又是迈克·麦康奈尔。

There was good reason not to order a recount at all.

有充分的理由不下令重新计票。

But if there was to be recount, it ought to be a fair recount.

但如果要重新计票，那应该是一次公平的重新计票。

For the Florida court to order a recount that was systematically rigged in favor of one candidate was just unjustifiable.

佛罗里达州法院下令重新计票，系统性地操纵有利于一名候选人，这是不合理的。

Let's move on to the second part of the Supreme Court decision.

让我们继续讨论最高法院判决的第二部分。

Once the Supreme Court decided that the Florida recount violated the equal protection amendment of the Constitution, what should they do about it?

一旦最高法院裁定佛罗里达州重新计票违反宪法平等保护修正案，他们该怎么办？

Conservative legal scholar Mike McConnell says that he agrees with the court when it comes to the equal protection part of their decision.

保守派法律学者迈克·麦康奈尔表示，他同意法院判决中的平等保护部分。

But that's it.

但仅此而已。

The weakness in the opinion has to do with the issue of remedy-- that if the problem with the Florida Supreme Court's decision is that in order to recount under unfair, unequal, arbitrary chaotic standards, the proper remedy would have been to send it back to the Florida court to conduct the recount under fair, consistent practical standards.

该意见的弱点与补救措施问题有关——如果佛罗里达州最高法院判决的问题是为了在不公平、不平等、任意混乱的标准下重新计票，那么适当的补救措施就是将其发回佛罗里达州法院，根据公平、一致的实际标准进行重新计票。

It would have been better for the US Supreme Court to leave it up to the state to do that.

美国最高法院最好让州政府来做这件事。

Normally when people are being treated unequally, the way you treat them equally is you raise everybody up to the fair level.

通常，当人们受到不平等对待时，平等对待他们的方式就是将每个人提高到公平的水平。

Liberal legal expert, Pam Karlan of Stanford Law School.

自由派法律专家，斯坦福大学法学院的帕姆·卡兰。

So if these ballots were going to be counted in Broward, then you'd count them in Palm Beach.

因此，如果这些选票要在布劳沃德计票，那么你就会在棕榈滩计票。

And instead, what the Supreme Court said was in order to solve the potential inequality, don't count any of these people's votes, even though there are large numbers of ballots that weren't counted the first time around on which it's absolutely clear what the voter's intent was.

相反，最高法院的说法是，为了解决潜在的不平等问题，不要计算这些人的任何选票，尽管有大量选票在第一次时没有被计算在内，但选民的意图是绝对清楚的。

And the Supreme Court stopped that process, leaving a lot of voters as disenfranchised as if they'd never gone to the polls in the first place.

最高法院终止了这一程序，导致许多选民被剥夺了选举权，就好像他们从一开始就没有去投票站一样。

The Supreme Court, of course, stopped the Florida recount on December 9 and then handed down its opinion on the 12.

当然，最高法院于 12 月 9 日停止了佛罗里达州的重新计票，然后于 12 日发表了意见。

The opinion said that because there wasn't enough time at that point to do a fair recount, they would call it a day.

意见称，由于当时没有足够的时间进行公平的重新计票，因此他们到此为止。

The state would go to George Bush.

该州将归乔治·布什所有。

In his dissent, Justice Breyer points out that the majority decided that there was no time for a recount without any evidence on the court record that the recount could not have been completed on time, by December 18, which is when the electoral college would meet.

布雷耶法官在他的异议中指出，多数人认为没有时间重新计票，因为法庭记录中没有任何证据表明重新计票无法按时完成，即 12 月 18 日，也就是选举团开会的时间。

Breyer writes, quote, "the majority finds facts outside of the record on matters that state courts are in a far better position to address," end quote.

布雷耶写道，引用，“大多数人发现了记录之外的事实，而州法院更有能力解决这些问题，”引用结束。

So what was the majority's argument for declaring it over on December 12?

那么，大多数人主张在 12 月 12 日宣布结束的理由是什么？

Well the majority doesn't say much about it at all.

好吧，大多数人对此根本没有多说什么。

Except that December 12 was the date that the Florida court was shooting for as the deadline for finishing the vote.

不过，佛罗里达州法院希望 12 月 12 日成为完成投票的最后期限。

Greg Sisk thinks that this was not only reasonable, he says it was the most sensible way to do it.

格雷格·西斯克认为这不仅合理，而且是最明智的做法。

First of all, the Florida Supreme Court had been saying all along, since their initial decision, had always been operating on the assumption that December 12 was the deadline.

首先，佛罗里达州最高法院一直表示，自最初的判决以来，一直以 12 月 12 日为最后期限的假设为基础。

And the reason they reached that conclusion, the Florida Supreme Court did, was this.

佛罗里达州最高法院得出这一结论的原因是这样的。

There's a federal statute that provides that if you, as a state, want to appoint electors in a way that they're not subject to challenge by Congress as having been improperly selected, you have to make your selection by December 12.

有一项联邦法规规定，如果您作为一个州希望任命选举人时不会受到国会因选择不当而提出的质疑，则必须在 12 月 12 日之前做出选择。

And the Florida Supreme Court had assumed all along that the legislature, of course, would have wanted Florida to take advantage of that safe harbor provision.

佛罗里达州最高法院一直认为立法机关当然希望佛罗里达州利用这一安全港条款。

Dissenters point out that the December 12 date is an arbitrary one, and not part of Florida state law.

反对者指出，12 月 12 日这一日期是任意的，而不是佛罗里达州法律的一部分。

If states miss the safe harbor deadline, they can still get their votes in.

如果各州错过了安全港最后期限，他们仍然可以投票。

Pam Karlan.

帕姆·卡兰.

Obviously, if you can get it done by December 12, that's the best.

显然，如果能在12月12日之前完成那就最好了。

But it's hard to say that Florida would prefer an inaccurate count on December 12 to a more accurate count on the 15 or the 18.

但很难说佛罗里达州更愿意在 12 月 12 日进行不准确的统计，而不是在 15 日或 18 日进行更准确的统计。

Or in a case like Hawaii in 1960, they didn't get their votes in until early January.

或者像 1960 年的夏威夷那样，他们直到一月初才收到选票。

Professor Sisk, I have to say after speaking with four different scholars about this decision, I sort of despair that people will see eye to eye on this.

西斯克教授，在与四位不同的学者讨论这一决定后，我不得不说，我对人们对此的看法达成一致感到有点绝望。

I know, I think that's probably right.

我知道，我想这可能是对的。

I think this is one of those cases that often one goes out the same door you came in.

我认为这是一种经常有人从你进来的同一扇门出去的情况之一。

I wonder if the very best thing to come out of a discussion like this is that people on each side will understand that the other side has a reasonable argument and might vilify each other a little less.

我想知道这样的讨论中最好的结果是否是双方都会明白对方的论点合理，并且可能会少一些诽谤对方。

People are so mad at each other.

人们彼此如此生气。

Well, this was one of those things are brought out some of the worst in terms of partisanship.

嗯，这是党派之争中最糟糕的事情之一。

One cannot imagine a more disastrous way to end an election campaign.

人们无法想象还有比这更灾难性的结束竞选活动的方式了。

People were more passionate in favor of their candidate after the election than they were beforehand.

选举后，人们比选举前更加热情地支持他们的候选人。

That is so true.

确实如此。

Do these discussions convince anybody of anything?

这些讨论能让任何人信服吗？

Speaking completely honestly, I came to this as a Gore-leaning voter, wanting to be persuaded by the majority on the Supreme Court.

老实说，我是作为一名倾向于戈尔的选民来到这里的，希望得到最高法院多数派的说服。

And in all honesty, I have to say, I did not find their arguments convincing.

老实说，我不得不说，我认为他们的论点没有说服力。

But I can say now that I see why they think they're convincing.

但我现在可以说，我明白为什么他们认为自己的观点很有说服力。

Maybe that's something.

也许这就是什么。

Act Five, What Would You Know Who Do?

第五幕，你知道谁在做什么？

Richard Harris, a Reverend from Belgrade, Florida says he doesn't even know how many days and weeks he spent registering voters for this fall's election.

来自佛罗里达州贝尔格莱德的牧师理查德·哈里斯 (Richard Harris) 表示，他甚至不知道自己花了多少天和几周的时间为今年秋季的选举登记选民。

Oh god, to be honest with you, I stopped counting long ago.

天哪，说实话，我很久以前就不再数了。

But we started out, actually, about a year ago.

但实际上，我们大约一年前就开始了。

We reached out through churches, reached out through civic groups, fraternities, sororities.

我们通过教堂、民间团体、兄弟会、姐妹会进行接触。

And we actually got out and beat the bushes.

我们真的出去了，走出灌木丛。

We went down where I live--

我们去了我住的地方——

When you were saying that, I was picturing guys fishing and you all just walking up to them.

当你这么说的时候，我正在想象人们在钓鱼，而你们都朝他们走去。

That too, and believe it or not, we did that.

不管你信不信，我们也这么做了。

We have a marina and a pier in our community.

我们的社区有一个码头和一个码头。

And we did that, too.

我们也这么做了。

Oh yeah, we went up on the pier and we actually did that.

哦，是的，我们上了码头，我们确实做到了。

As a matter of fact, if we happened to be going somewhere and someone was fishing off one of the canals and bridges there, we actually stop, hey, you a registered voter?

事实上，如果我们碰巧要去某个地方，有人在那里的一条运河和桥梁上钓鱼，我们实际上会停下来，嘿，你是登记选民吗？

They'd give us a thumbs up.

他们会给我们竖起大拇指。

We'd slow down, give us the thumbs up sign.

我们会放慢速度，给我们竖起大拇指。

I mean when we were in the supermarket.

我是说当我们在超市的时候。

It became such a part of us.

它成为我们的一部分。

When we're in the supermarket or in line at the bank, or whatever.

当我们在超市或在银行排队或其他什么时候。

If you saw someone, we'd register them right on the spot.

如果您看到有人，我们会当场登记。

Do you have a count of the number of people you all registered?

你们有统计一下你们总共登记了多少人吗？

Personally, maybe around 1,200 or so.

就个人而言，大概1200左右。

And I'm sure it was more than that because I stopped counting at one point.

我确信不止于此，因为我曾一度停止计数。

Oh yeah, definitely.

哦，是的，当然。

Ira Glass Come election day, the number of African Americans who voted in Florida broke all records.

艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 在选举日到来之际，佛罗里达州投票的非裔美国人人数打破了所有记录。

It rose 50% over the last presidential race.

比上届总统竞选上涨了 50%。

But over the course of the day, Reverend Harris witnessed some of the problems at the polls, which have led to civil rights hearings.

但在这一天中，哈里斯牧师目睹了民意调查中的一些问题，这些问题导致了民权听证会的召开。

He saw police at a polling place asking voters for ID.

他在投票站看到警察要求选民出示身份证件。

He saw polling officials from poorer districts unable to get through to state officials to confirm voter IDs.

他发现来自较贫困地区的投票官员无法联系州官员来确认选民身份。

There were people who were thrown off the voter roles because of a faulty list that the state of Florida bought, which incorrectly identified over 8,000 people as felons, who aren't allowed to cast ballots, according to Florida law.

有些人因为佛罗里达州购买的一份错误名单而被剥夺了选民资格，根据佛罗里达州法律，该名单错误地将 8,000 多人认定为重罪犯，不允许他们投票。

You could feel it.

你能感觉到。

Certainly by 3 or 4 o'clock in the afternoon, you could really feel that there was something definitely wrong.

当然到了下午三四点的时候，你就真的能感觉到肯定有什么不对劲了。

It had gone wrong and you could just feel it.

它出了问题，你只能感觉到。

And by the time the polls had closed, there was just this uneasy feeling when I left to go home to watch the results.

当投票结束时，当我离开家回家观看结果时，就有一种不安的感觉。

Something you can't put your hand on at the time, that's how I felt.

当时你无法把手伸到的东西，这就是我的感受。

Something is not right, it's just not right.

有些事情不对劲，就是不对劲。

Can I ask you honestly?

我可以诚实地问你吗？

As somebody who's trying to stay positive about this entire experience, did you have moments, as a man watching the election results and what happened in the weeks after, where you felt yourself just getting angrier and angrier at the Republicans?

作为一个试图对整个经历保持积极态度的人，作为一个观看选举结果以及几周后发生的事情的人，你是否有过这样的时刻，你觉得自己对共和党越来越愤怒？

And angry, perhaps, in a way that you didn't feel entirely comfortable with as a man of God?

或许，作为一个属神的人，你感到不完全舒服的愤怒？

Actually, what I really felt was a questioning of my spirituality, to be honest with you.

事实上，老实说，我真正的感受是对我灵性的质疑。

How can I sit back and just let this go like this?

我怎能袖手旁观，就这样放过呢？

How can I accept these people as decent and human when I'm looking at them and I'm beginning to see-- tell you what bothers me.

当我看着这些人并且我开始明白——告诉你是什么困扰着我时，我如何才能接受这些人是正派和人性的。

I listened to this on the testimony on the Ashcroft confirmation on my way up here to Atlanta.

我在前往亚特兰大的途中在阿什克罗夫特确认案的证词中听到了这一点。

That's what bothers me.

这就是让我烦恼的事情。

When you try to ram Ashcroft down our throats, knowing he's controversial, knowing there's a great majority in this country, the public, who does not want him to be there, who is really frightened by the possibility that he will be confirmed.

当你试图把阿什克罗夫特强行塞进我们的喉咙时，知道他是有争议的，知道这个国家的绝大多数人，公众，他们不希望他在那里，他们真的害怕他被确认的可能性。

Then it says to me if you're going to be a president of compassion, as you have identified yourself-- you can't just say, I'm a compassionate president and then you've got your staff who's not.

然后它对我说，如果你要成为一位富有同情心的总统，正如你所表明的那样，你不能只是说，我是一位富有同情心的总统，然后你的幕僚却不是。

That's not going to work.

那是行不通的。

I have a friend who watched Bush become president, and she wanted Gore to become, and saw the way it had happened.

我有一个朋友目睹了布什成为总统，她希望戈尔成为总统，并看到了这一切发生的方式。

And she was remembering how, in 1992, I think it was, Dick Armey, Republican, stood up on Capitol Hill and referred to Clinton as "Your president." And she said she just doesn't want to become that.

她还记得 1992 年，我想是共和党人迪克·阿米 (Dick Armey) 站在国会山，称克林顿为“你们的总统”。她说她只是不想成为那样。

She just doesn't want to hate.

她只是不想恨而已。

And she says it's hard not to.

她说很难不这样做。

I tell you what, she's absolutely right.

我告诉你，她是绝对正确的。

I was at a basketball game last night at a college.

昨晚我在一所大学观看了一场篮球比赛。

And I'm going to be totally honest with you, when the National Anthem was playing, I sat down.

我要对你们说实话，当国歌响起时，我坐下了。

I didn't get up.

我没有起来。

I couldn't.

我不能。

Something just held me down.

有什么东西压住了我。

It was very interesting and coincidental that the flag was directly-- there was a Confederate flag on one side, the state of Georgia flag on one side off to my left a little bit, but directly over my head was an American flag.

非常有趣和巧合的是，国旗就在正上方——一侧有一面南方联盟旗帜，在我左边一点的一侧有佐治亚州国旗，但在我头顶的正上方是一面美国国旗。

So everybody in the gym turned around and looked.

于是健身房里的所有人都转头看去。

And I'm sitting right up under the flag, not moving.

我就坐在旗帜下，一动不动。

But something was-- I just couldn't get up.

但有件事是——我就是起不来。

And what was that something?

那是什么东西？

Richard Harris To be honest with you, the only other time I felt like this was when I was beaten-- in segregation, the colored and white water fountain.

理查德·哈里斯（Richard Harris）说实话，我唯一一次有这种感觉是当我被殴打时——在种族隔离中，彩色和白色的喷泉。

And I stopped for a long time.

而我却停了很长一段时间。

Because what that flag symbolized for me at that particular point in time, this was not my country.

因为那面旗帜在那个特定时间点对我来说象征着，这不是我的国家。

And with no real rights.

并且没有真正的权利。

And that's the feeling that I'm getting now, that we have no real worth in their eyes.

这就是我现在的感觉，我们在他们眼中没有真正的价值。

And that's what bothers me.

这就是让我烦恼的地方。

And I have to pray real hard and ask God for forgiveness, not to dislike to the point where it turns into hatred of other people who were diametrically opposed to what's right.

我必须真正努力地祈祷，请求上帝的宽恕，不要让不喜欢变成对其他与正义截然相反的人的仇恨。

I figure what's right, anyway.

无论如何，我认为什么是正确的。

And some of the sinister things they did, I have to forgive them.

而他们所做的一些险恶的事情，我必须原谅他们。

I have to.

我必须。

I have no choice.

我别无选择。

I have to forgive them so we can move on and the healing can start.

我必须原谅他们，这样我们才能继续前进，治愈才能开始。

And how's that going?

进展如何？

Richard Harris I'm almost at the point where I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired.

理查德·哈里斯（Richard Harris）我几乎已经到了厌倦的地步。

You remember that?

你还记得吗？

Sure.

当然。

Richard Harris That's where I am right now.

理查德·哈里斯这就是我现在的处境。

If you want to know what my secret prayer is-- my secret prayer is no longer a secret once I tell you this-- is that President-Elect Bush will have a change of heart and will see that he has been given an opportunity to mend a lot of fences, to make a real difference, that he can really change some things in this country for the better.

如果你想知道我的秘密祈祷是什么——一旦我告诉你这一点，我的秘密祈祷就不再是秘密了——那就是当选总统布什会改变主意，并看到他有机会修补很多障碍，做出真正的改变，他真的可以让这个国家的一些事情变得更好。

And really prove to people and say, I just did that to get elected.

并真正向人们证明并说，我这样做只是为了当选。

And then really go ahead and do something for the good of the country.

然后真正继续为国家做一些事。

That's my prayer.

这是我的祈祷。

That's my prayer.

这是我的祈祷。

Reverend Richard Harris.

理查德·哈里斯牧师。

Our program was produced today by Starlee Kine and myself, with Blue Chevigny, Jonathan Goldstein, Julie Snyder and Alex Blumberg.

今天我们的节目由 Starlee Kine 和我本人以及 Blue Chevigny、Jonathan Goldstein、Julie Snyder 和 Alex Blumberg 制作。

Production help from Todd Bachmann and Erin Yanke, our production trainee.

我们的生产实习生托德·巴赫曼 (Todd Bachmann) 和艾琳·扬克 (Erin Yanke) 为生产提供帮助。

This is her last show with us.

这是她最后一次和我们一起演出。

Erin, we are sorry to see you go.

艾琳，我们很遗憾你走了。

Musical help from John Connors and Chris Lygan.

约翰·康纳斯和克里斯·莱根提供音乐帮助。

[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.

[致谢]《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。

[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight by Torey Malatia, who says regardless of party affiliation--

[资金来源] WBEZ 管理由托里·马拉蒂亚 (Torey Malatia) 监督，他表示，无论党派归属如何——

There's a really creepy side to you.

你确实有令人毛骨悚然的一面。

There is, I'm sorry.

有，对不起。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Back next week with more stories of This American Life .

下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。

This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。

中文为机器翻译，仅供参考。