170: Immigration - This American Life

170：移民

170 · This American Life · 原文

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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #170 | October 13, 2000 170: Immigration Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

00:00 00:00 文字记录分享此美国生活生活伙伴如何收听剧集推荐关于概述员工公告奖学金工作音乐在路上制作电台常见问题解答提交商品联系我们我们的其他节目商品关注我们生活伙伴订阅我们的时事通讯整集切换音频和文字记录同步文字记录 | 内容第 170 集 | 2000 年 10 月 13 日 170：移民注意事项：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。

If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.

如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。

Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。

Prologue Ira Glass Tom Hodgson's one of those "get tough on crime" politicians, a Republican who was appointed to the job of sheriff by a Republican governor.

序言艾拉·格拉斯汤姆·霍奇森饰演一位“严厉打击犯罪”的政客，一位共和党人，被一位共和党州长任命为治安官。

And as soon as he became sheriff in Bristol County, Massachusetts, he went right to work in the county jail.

当他成为马萨诸塞州布里斯托尔县的警长后，他就直接到县监狱工作。

Before he came, we had no control over this jail.

在他来之前，我们无法控制这座监狱。

The inmates had control of the jail.

He changed all that.

他改变了这一切。

Carlos Carrero has worked in the jail for 10 years.

卡洛斯·卡雷罗已在监狱工作了 10 年。

He says Sheriff Hodgson imposed discipline on the inmates and the guards.

他说霍奇森警长对囚犯和警卫实施了纪律约束。

He changed the rules so that inmates had to go into classes or activities if they wanted their time counted as good time.

他改变了规则，如果囚犯想要把自己的时间算作美好时光，就必须去上课或参加活动。

He removed the TVs from the cells, removed the weight room.

他从牢房里拆掉了电视，拆除了举重室。

Carlos gestures around his own office.

As a matter of fact, this office right here, this used to be a weight room, right here we were are.

事实上，这间办公室就在这里，这曾经是一个举重室，我们就在这里。

He removed all that, because to him, it made no sense for us to make people charged with crimes, to make them even stronger than when they came in.

他取消了所有这些，因为对他来说，我们让人们被指控犯罪，让他们比他们进来时更强大，这是没有意义的。

I remember before him that we used to have requests every single day from different institutions, of inmates who wanted to come to this institution.

我记得在他之前，我们每天都会收到来自不同机构、想要来到这个机构的囚犯的请求。

This was vacation ground.

这是度假胜地。

This was where they could do whatever they want.

这是他们可以为所欲为的地方。

Everything was going fine.

一切都很顺利。

Now it's the other way around.

现在情况正好相反。

Everybody wants to leave this jail.

每个人都想离开这个监狱。

They don't want to stay here.

他们不想留在这里。

It's a very strict institution within the laws.

这是法律范围内非常严格的机构。

But not long after Sheriff Hodgson took office in 1997, Carlos Carrero started to tell him about something going on at the jail that seemed terribly unfair.

但 1997 年霍奇森警长上任后不久，卡洛斯·卡雷罗开始向他讲述监狱里发生的一些似乎非常不公平的事情。

There was a new immigration law put into place just a year before, which was sentencing lots of people to deportation who had never been eligible for deportation before this.

一年前刚刚实施了一项新的移民法，该法判处许多此前从未有资格被驱逐出境的人被驱逐出境。

Here's Sheriff Hodgson.

请听霍奇森警长的报道。

When I took over this job-- obviously one of the things that is fundamental whenever you're in public office is to make sure that the scales of justice are properly balanced.

当我接手这份工作时——显然，无论你担任公职，最重要的事情之一就是确保正义的天平得到适当的平衡。

So if I see that somehow the law is being applied in an unbalanced way, then shame on me if I don't stand up and try to correct that.

因此，如果我发现法律以某种不平衡的方式适用，那么如果我不站起来并尝试纠正这一点，我会感到羞耻。

First of all, there were certain offenses-- drunk driving, for example-- that prior to '96 was not a deportable offense, that today would be a deportable offense.

首先，有一些犯罪行为——例如醉酒驾驶——在 96 年之前不是可驱逐出境的犯罪行为，但今天将是可驱逐出境的犯罪行为。

In fact, any crime that got a sentence of a year in length was suddenly bad enough to get you deported if you didn't have full citizenship-- drunk driving, petty theft, minor drug possession charges.

事实上，如果你没有完全公民身份，任何被判一年徒刑的犯罪行为都会突然变得严重到足以让你被驱逐出境——醉酒驾驶、小偷小摸、轻微持有毒品指控。

All of these could suddenly get a person deported.

所有这些都可能导致一个人突然被驱逐出境。

But what made this especially severe was that it was retroactive.

但让这一情况变得尤为严重的是它具有追溯力。

If you committed these crimes decades ago, served your time, been a model community member ever since, suddenly you could be thrown out of the country.

如果你几十年前犯下这些罪行，服刑完毕，从此成为模范社区成员，突然间你可能会被赶出这个国家。

If, for example, someone, say, when they were 20 years old, was arrested for drunk driving, got a year, either probation or jail, finished their probation-- it was the only run-in with the law they had.

例如，如果某人在 20 岁时因酒后驾车被捕，被判一年缓刑或入狱，缓刑期满——这是他们唯一一次触犯法律。

And then at 24 years old, he decides to get married.

然后在24岁的时候，他决定结婚。

Has a job, responsible, pays taxes, has a couple of children.

有工作，有责任心，纳税，有几个孩子。

And now, the kids are four and five years old.

现在，孩子们已经四五岁了。

The '96 law kicks in, the change in the law.

96 年法律生效，法律发生变化。

The person decides, my son's three years old, my daughter's now five.

人决定的，我儿子三岁，我女儿现在五岁。

I'm going to go ahead and get my citizenship.

我要继续获得公民身份。

Or perhaps they heard about the changes in the law and thought, hey, the country is getting tougher on green card holders.

或者也许他们听说了法律的变化并认为，嘿，这个国家对绿卡持有者越来越严厉。

I should finally get my full citizenship.

我终于应该获得完整的公民身份了。

And they head down to the immigration service to do that.

他们会前往移民局去做这件事。

When they get there, voluntarily, to apply, they run their background check and find out that 15 years earlier, this person got arrested for drunk driving.

当他们自愿到达那里申请时，他们进行了背景调查，发现这个人 15 年前因酒后驾车被捕。

INS says, I'm sorry, we're shipping you back to wherever.

INS 说，对不起，我们要把你送回任何地方。

That to me is a law that clearly is unfair.

对我来说，这是一条显然不公平的法律。

The person had done their time.

这个人已经完成了他们的时间。

They'd volunteered to go get their citizenship, and here, now, they're being taken away from their family.

他们自愿去获得公民身份，而现在，他们被从家人身边带走。

And so this law-and-order Republican has found himself in the position of calling for Congress to change a law that he thinks is too harsh.

因此，这位奉行法律和秩序的共和党人发现自己处于呼吁国会修改一项他认为过于严厉的法律的境地。

He's traveled to Washington DC to lobby legislators.

他前往华盛顿特区游说立法者。

And for the people in his jail who are awaiting deportation, he's brought in teachers to prepare them for their new lives overseas.

对于监狱里等待驱逐的人，他请来了老师，为他们在海外的新生活做好准备。

[SPEAKING PORTUGUESE] Ira Glass Bristol County happens to be home to a large Portuguese population, which has seen over 400 people deported in the last four years under this new law.

[葡萄牙语] Ira Glass 布里斯托尔县恰好是大量葡萄牙人的居住地，在过去四年中，根据这项新法律，已有 400 多人被驱逐出境。

On any given date, 35 to 40 people are being held in the county jail, most of them waiting to be deported back to Portugal.

在任何特定日期，都有 35 至 40 人被关押在县监狱中，其中大多数人等待被驱逐回葡萄牙。

[SPEAKING PORTUGUESE] Ira Glass Mario Medeiros drops some Portuguese money onto a desk for four inmates and explains to them how much each coin and bill is worth in the country that they will soon be deported to, for most of them a country they haven't even seen since they were small children.

[葡萄牙语]艾拉·格拉斯·马里奥·梅代罗斯 (Ira Glass Mario Medeiros) 将一些葡萄牙钱放在四名囚犯的桌子上，并向他们解释每枚硬币和纸币在他们即将被驱逐到的国家的价值，对他们中的大多数人来说，这是一个他们从小就从未见过的国家。

The whole thing's done in Portuguese so they can get some practice.

整个过程都是用葡萄牙语完成的，这样他们就可以进行一些练习。

Some need it more than others.

有些人比其他人更需要它。

Most of them don't even remember seeing this money before.

他们中的大多数人甚至不记得以前见过这笔钱。

Yeah, that's totally new to me.

是的，这对我来说是全新的。

Yeah, totally new.

Jorge Aruda expects to be shipped overseas any day now.

Jorge Aruda 预计随时都会被运往海外。

Weird-looking money.

看起来很奇怪的钱。

It's all different colors, and coins.

都是不同的颜色和硬币。

I'm used to an American dollar bill, you know?

我习惯了美元钞票，你知道吗？

I am lost with that.

Ira Glass Jorge Aruda came to America when he was two years old.

艾拉·格拉斯·豪尔赫·阿鲁达 (Ira Glass Jorge Aruda) 两岁时来到美国。

Now he's 25.

He's no angel.

He was addicted to heroin.

他对海洛因上瘾。

While robbing a store, he got into a fight with an off-duty cop.

在抢劫一家商店时，他与一名下班的警察发生了争执。

It was the second time he was convicted of an assault charge, and he was sentenced to a year, which he served.

这是他第二次因袭击罪被定罪，他被判处一年徒刑，并服刑。

That was enough to result in deportation under the '96 law.

根据 96 年法律，这足以导致驱逐出境。

Do you feel like you shouldn't have been punished?

你觉得你不应该受到惩罚吗？

I feel like I should have been punished somewhat, but not punished for the rest of my life.

我觉得我应该受到一些惩罚，但我的余生不该受到惩罚。

That's how I take it.

That was a life sentence for me.

这对我来说是无期徒刑。

They've punished me for the rest of my life.

他们惩罚了我一辈子。

I feel there's no need for it.

我感觉没必要了

If someone pays-- if someone does their time, is committed to any kind of sentence for what they've done, then that should be their punishment.

如果有人付出了代价——如果有人付出了时间，为他们所做的事情承担了任何形式的刑罚，那么这应该是他们的惩罚。

That's it.

就是这样。

Let him go home.

让他回家吧。

He's done.

他完成了。

He's paid for what he's done.

他已经为他所做的付出了代价。

Let him go home to his family.

让他回家与家人团聚。

Why ship me out of the country?

为什么要送我出国？

Jorge will be sent to a part of Portugal where his family's from, where he has godparents and an aunt, all elderly.

豪尔赫将被送往葡萄牙的一个地方，他的家人都来自那里，他的教父母和阿姨都上了年纪。

What do you picture when you picture what it's like there?

当你想象那里的景象时，你会想到什么？

What do I picture?

We've seen a video here of how it was out there.

我们在这里看过一段视频，展示了它的情况。

And it's like a country life, you know?

这就像乡村生活，你知道吗？

I've lived in the city all my life.

我一生都住在城市里。

You know what I mean?

你知道我的意思？

I'm watching this video and there's people riding on donkeys and milking cows and stuff, you know?

我正在看这个视频，里面有人骑着驴子挤奶之类的东西，你知道吗？

That's something I've never done.

这是我从来没有做过的事情。

I drink milk from the fridge and I ride around in a car.

我喝冰箱里的牛奶，然后开车兜风。

I can't picture myself on a donkey and milking cows, you know?

我无法想象自己骑在驴子上挤奶，你知道吗？

It's going to be hard to adapt.

会很难适应。

But I guess I've got no choice but to get used to it.

但我想我别无选择，只能习惯。

Today on our program, the story of a little-known law and how it has affected one community in Massachusetts.

今天我们的节目讲述了一项鲜为人知的法律的故事以及它如何影响马萨诸塞州的一个社区。

We live in a big enough country that there are actually lots of laws too obscure for most of us to have heard of, which actually affect tens of thousands of lives in huge, huge ways.

我们生活在一个足够大的国家，实际上有很多法律对于我们大多数人来说太晦涩难懂，而这些法律实际上以巨大的方式影响着数以万计的人的生活。

Today we hear about one of them.

今天我们听说其中之一。

It's an immigration law that the immigration service itself says is unfair.

移民局自己说这是一项不公平的移民法。

Most of the law's original sponsors in Congress now say they went too far, they were too harsh when they passed the law, and yet most of the law's key provisions still stand unchanged and unchallenged.

该法案最初的国会支持者现在表示，他们在通过该法案时太过分、过于严厉，但该法案的大部分关键条款仍然保持不变，没有受到质疑。

From WBEZ Chicago and Public Radio International, it's This American Life .

来自芝加哥 WBEZ 和国际公共广播电台的《This American Life》。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Act One of our show today, Where Goes the Neighborhood?

我们今天的节目第一幕，邻居去哪儿了？

We hear how the immigration law of 1996 has a community of nonpolitical people reluctantly going to protests, attending meetings at night, talking to politicians, doing all sorts of things most of us would do anything to avoid.

我们听说 1996 年的移民法如何让一群非政治人士不情愿地参加抗议活动、参加晚上的会议、与政客交谈、做各种我们大多数人会竭尽全力避免的事情。

Act Two, Whose Idea Was This Anyway?

第二幕，这到底是谁的主意？

Congressman Barney Frank argues that most of his colleagues had no idea what they were voting for when they voted for key portions of this law, and an advocate for the law explains why we should want to deport more people.

国会议员巴尼·弗兰克（Barney Frank）辩称，他的大多数同事在投票支持该法律的关键部分时并不知道他们在投票什么，该法律的倡导者解释了为什么我们应该驱逐更多的人。

Act Three, Man Without a Country.

第三幕，无国之人。

What happens if the immigration service wants to deport you, but the country that you come from won't take you back.

如果移民局想要将您驱逐出境，但您来自的国家不会将您带回国，会发生什么情况？

Under current law, usually, you stay in jail indefinitely.

根据现行法律，通常情况下，您会无限期地入狱。

Alex Kotlowitz tells the story from Texas.

亚历克斯·科特洛维茨讲述了德克萨斯州的故事。

It is an action-packed hour.

这是一个充满活力的时刻。

Stay with us.

留在我们身边。

Act One, Where Goes the Neighborhood.

第一幕，邻里何去何从。

When the 1996 immigration law kicked into effect, the number of people deported because of their criminal past doubled from about 30,000 people a year to about 60,000.

1996 年移民法生效后，因犯罪记录而被驱逐出境的人数翻了一番，从每年约 30,000 人增加到约 60,000 人。

Two towns in Massachusetts, Fall River and New Bedford, were especially hard-hit because of the large Portuguese community there, which includes many newcomers and which mostly comes from the Portuguese island called the Azores.

马萨诸塞州的福尔里弗和新贝德福德这两个城镇受到的打击尤其严重，因为那里有大量葡萄牙人社区，其中包括许多新移民，而且大多来自葡萄牙的亚速尔群岛。

This American Life producer Blue Chevigny spent some time there recently talking to people about the effects of the law.

《美国生活》的制片人 Blue Chevigny 最近花了一些时间在那里与人们谈论该法律的影响。

Mario Fredas is the kinds of dad who has learned to tune out the fact that there's a five-year-old, a one-and-a-half-year-old, and a recently-born baby all wanting attention as he tries to talk to me in his living room.

马里奥·弗雷达斯（Mario Fredas）是这样一种父亲，当他试图在客厅里与我交谈时，他已经学会了忽视这样一个事实：一个五岁的孩子、一个一岁半的孩子和一个刚出生的婴儿都需要关注。

He came to this country 19 years ago, when he was 17, from the Azores, the islands off of Portugal.

19 年前，17 岁的他从葡萄牙附近的亚速尔群岛来到这个国家。

He and his wife Maria show me pictures, one from 1980.

他和他的妻子玛丽亚给我看了照片，其中一张是 1980 年的。

Who are these?

这些人是谁？

Mario Fredas This is me.

This is my older brother.

这是我的哥哥。

And this was a friend of us who was already here.

这是我们的一个朋友，他已经在这里了。

He's from Boston.

Yes.

是的。

Blue Chevigny Mario is like most of the people in this community who face deportation under the '96 immigration law.

Blue Chevigny Mario 和这个社区中的大多数人一样，根据 96 年移民法面临被驱逐出境。

They came here from Portugal in the '70s as children with their families to escape the Salazar dictatorship.

七十年代，他们还是孩子时就与家人一起从葡萄牙来到这里，以逃避萨拉查的独裁统治。

They were legal immigrants with green cards.

他们是持有绿卡的合法移民。

Typically they got involved with drugs or alcohol and got in trouble with the law for drunk driving, drug possession, domestic violence, and minor assault charges.

他们通常会吸毒或酗酒，并因醉酒驾驶、持有毒品、家庭暴力和轻微袭击指控而触犯法律。

Mario was convicted of cocaine possession with intent to distribute when he was 24.

马里奥 (Mario) 24 岁时因持有可卡因并意图传播而被定罪。

He served a three-year sentence.

他被判三年徒刑。

He was released in 1991.

Then, after his parole, he didn't think about his crime all that much until one morning last year.

假释后，直到去年的一个早晨，他才开始认真思考自己的罪行。

I was going to work.

我要去工作。

I work in Boston.

Just a regular day.

只是平常的一天。

I get up.

我起床了。

I get [INAUDIBLE].

We walk outside.

Mario Fredas And I just get in my truck over here.

马里奥·弗雷达斯（Mario Fredas）我刚坐上我的卡车就到了这里。

I just went inside.

我刚进去。

I've got my coffee, my bagel.

我有我的咖啡，我的百吉饼。

Just on my mind is getting to work, make some money.

我脑子里只有一个念头：上班，赚点钱。

I back it up, just like a regular back-up.

我备份它，就像常规备份一样。

When I reach to that car right there--

当我到达那辆车那里时——

That's about, what, 150 feet?

大约是 150 英尺？

I see a police car coming from the corner where you see that tree, coming this way.

我看到一辆警车从你看到那棵树的拐角处驶来，朝这边过来。

He pulled over, thinking the police were there for someone else.

他把车停在路边，以为警察是来救别人的。

And suddenly officers appeared on both sides of this truck.

突然，警察出现在这辆卡车的两侧。

They opened my right door, my left door, and pulled their guns all over.

他们打开了我的右门、左门，并拔出了枪。

So I cannot move.

I can't even pull the key.

Wow.

哇。

Mario Fredas So then he did the key for me, pulled the emergency brake.

马里奥·弗雷达斯（Mario Fredas）于是他帮我开了钥匙，拉下了紧急刹车。

They take me out of the truck.

他们把我从卡车里带出来。

I thought I was being kidnapped.

我以为我被绑架了。

I thought it was a mistake, you know?

我以为这是一个错误，你知道吗？

They identify themselves.

他们表明自己的身份。

They say, that's immigration, and you'll be going to Portugal next week.

他们说，这就是移民，下周你就要去葡萄牙。

Never mind this country.

Think about Portugal.

Of course, I was in shock.

当然，我很震惊。

I have my family, my kids sleeping over here 150 feet away.

我的家人和孩子就睡在 150 英尺外的地方。

So I was not too happy.

所以我不太高兴。

It's still not clear why they came for him that particular day, what brought his case up on their radar.

目前还不清楚他们为什么在那天来找他，是什么让他的案子引起了他们的注意。

They put him in a van and drove him into Boston, right past his actual job site.

他们把他放进一辆面包车，开车送他到波士顿，就在他实际工作地点旁边。

He lays concrete on the massive tunnel highway construction project that's called the Big Dig.

他为名为“大挖掘”的大型隧道高速公路建设项目铺设了混凝土。

I thought it was a bad dream, you know?

我以为这是一个噩梦，你知道吗？

I go by my job.

我按我的工作去做。

I'm thinking, I'm supposed to be over there.

我想，我应该在那儿。

I'm not supposed to be on all those [UNINTELLIGIBLE].

我不应该参与所有这些[无法理解]。

I was asleep when my next-door neighbor called and said, they took your husband.

当我正在睡觉时，我的隔壁邻居打电话来说，他们带走了你的丈夫。

And I knew in my heart that it was immigration, because we already had heard of a few cases.

我心里知道这是移民，因为我们已经听说过一些案例。

So when she said immigration, my first reaction was to run outside.

所以当她说移民的时候，我的第一反应就是往外面跑。

Because I'm thinking he's still outside, but they already had taken him away.

因为我想他还在外面，但他们已经把他带走了。

So the only thing I could do was, I got into the truck, and his coffee was still sitting there.

所以我唯一能做的就是，我上了卡车，而他的咖啡还放在那里。

The hot coffee and a warm bagel.

热咖啡和热百吉饼。

And I took the truck and parked it into the yard and started calling family.

我把卡车停在院子里，开始给家人打电话。

I think the worst part was my daughter.

我认为最糟糕的是我的女儿。

She was, at the time, four.

当时她四岁。

And that was hard for her, because she thought her dad had died.

这对她来说很难，因为她认为她的父亲已经死了。

She said, "Why are these people here?" This was in the morning.

她说：“这些人怎么会在这里？”这是早上的事。

"Why are you crying?" And I said, "Nothing." And she ran to the window and said, "Mommy, that's Daddy's truck.

“你为什么哭？” And I said, "Nothing."她跑到窗前说：“妈妈，那是爸爸的卡车。

Did Daddy die?" I said, "No, Daddy didn't die." And she said, "Yes, he did." And I said, "No, he didn't," and she said, "Yeah, my Daddy died."

爸爸死了吗？”我说：“不，爸爸没有死。”她说：“是的，他做到了。”我说，“不，他没有，”她说，“是的，我爸爸死了。”

The INS held him for 20 days, and then his lawyer got him out on a technicality.

移民局把他拘留了 20 天，然后他的律师以技术问题把他放了出来。

A year later, he's still waiting for a final decision about whether he'll be sent to Portugal.

一年后，他仍在等待是否被派往葡萄牙的最终决定。

As you've heard, the 1996 law did a few things.

正如您所听说的，1996 年的法律做了一些事情。

It made a lot of crimes deportable that weren't deportable before.

它使许多以前不能驱逐的犯罪行为可以被驱逐出境。

It was retroactive, applying to crimes that happened years before it was written.

它具有追溯力，适用于在其撰写之前几年发生的犯罪行为。

And it did one more thing, and it's this third change that's probably had the most effect on this community and the country.

它还做了另一件事，这第三个变化可能对这个社区和国家产生了最大的影响。

It removed judges from the process.

它将法官从整个过程中剔除。

Before the 1996 law, Mario would have had the right to appear before a judge, who would examine the specifics of his case, take into account the fact that he hadn't had other arrests and that he's a parent of three children with a job and a house, and then decide whether he deserves to be deported.

在1996年法律出台之前，马里奥有权出庭接受法官审理，法官会审查他案件的具体情况，考虑到他没有被捕过，而且他是三个孩子的父母，有工作和房子，然后决定他是否应该被驱逐出境。

Fred Watt is an attorney in New Bedford who's handled dozens of these cases, including Mario's.

弗雷德·瓦特是新贝德福德的一名律师，处理过数十起此类案件，其中包括马里奥的案件。

I think that probably the easiest way to understand the changes in the law is to understand that what the new law or laws did is-- the big difference is that now the judges do not have the discretion, in many cases, to give a waiver from deportation.

我认为理解法律变化的最简单方法可能是理解新法律所做的事情是——最大的区别是，现在法官在许多情况下没有自由裁量权放弃驱逐出境。

Fred Watts says that if they had that discretion, well over half of his clients might have had a decent shot at staying in the US.

弗雷德·瓦茨表示，如果他们有这种判断力，他一半以上的客户可能有机会留在美国。

Before the changes in the law, that's how many of his clients won their cases with judges.

在法律修改之前，他的许多客户在法官面前赢得了官司。

As it stands now, though, all sorts of cases lead to deportation more or less automatically.

但就目前情况而言，各种情况或多或少都会自动导致驱逐出境。

I never knew that this thing was going to happen like this, you know?

我从来不知道事情会这样发生，你知道吗？

Because I'm not a criminal.

因为我不是罪犯。

I consider myself-- I'm not a criminal.

我认为我自己——我不是罪犯。

My problem was drink.

我的问题是喝酒。

Luis Ramos is 48, did construction and manufacturing work, and served a sentence for drunk driving.

路易斯·拉莫斯 (Luis Ramos) 48 岁，从事建筑和制造工作，并因酒后驾车被判刑。

Before 1996, a judge might have taken away his driver's license and ruled that he posed no further danger to the community.

1996 年之前，法官可能会吊销他的驾驶执照，并裁定他不会对社区构成进一步的危险。

Now the INS is planning to deport him.

现在移民局正计划将他驱逐出境。

I never go around robbing houses or something like that.

我从不到处抢劫房屋或类似的事情。

I've worked in this country for 32 years.

我在这个国家工作了 32 年。

32 years.

32年。

And I never robbed nobody.

而且我从来没有抢劫过任何人。

I always pay taxes to the government.

我总是向政府纳税。

And I've hurt no one.

而且我没有伤害过任何人。

I have an 18 years' marriage, two kids, wife.

我有 18 年的婚姻，有两个孩子，还有妻子。

Never did nothing to hurt America.

从未做过任何伤害美国的事。

New Bedford and Fall River are both really pretty port towns, with cobblestones, colonial-looking downtowns, and small houses on streets winding back from the waterfront.

新贝德福德和福尔里弗都是非常漂亮的港口城镇，有鹅卵石铺成的、殖民时期风格的市中心，还有从海滨蜿蜒而回的街道上的小房子。

And Portuguese immigrants have been coming here since the 1790s, because this was a major whaling town, and the Portuguese islands, the Azores, were full of whalers as well.

自 1790 年代以来，葡萄牙移民就一直来到这里，因为这里是一个主要的捕鲸城镇，而且葡萄牙的亚速尔群岛也充满了捕鲸者。

A section of Moby Dick where Ishmael meets up with whalers from all over the world is set in New Bedford.

《白鲸记》中，以实玛利与来自世界各地的捕鲸者会面的部分以新贝德福德为背景。

This is the kind of place where it seems like every little store and doctor's office has a Portuguese name, and where many first-generation Portuguese immigrants never learned to speak English.

在这个地方，似乎每家小商店和医生办公室都有一个葡萄牙语名字，许多第一代葡萄牙移民从未学过说英语。

Over half of the population is of Portuguese descent.

超过一半的人口是葡萄牙人后裔。

At this point, there have been so many deportations, a women's group has formed here, made up of mothers, sisters, and wives of men who've been deported to Portugal.

此时，已经发生了很多驱逐事件，这里成立了一个妇女团体，由被驱逐到葡萄牙的男人的母亲、姐妹和妻子组成。

They hold a monthly support group and weekly vigils in downtown New Bedford.

他们每月在新贝德福德市中心举办一次支持小组，每周举行守夜活动。

They dress in black and carry signs protesting the deportations.

他们身穿黑衣，举着抗议驱逐的标语。

Last month, they held a speaker's forum in a Fall River church, where women were invited to tell their stories, and politicians were invited to come and listen and respond.

上个月，他们在福尔里弗教堂举办了一场演讲者论坛，邀请女性讲述她们的故事，并邀请政界人士前来聆听并做出回应。

I would also like to recognize Maria Costa, who's representing Congressman Jim McGovern.

我还要感谢代表国会议员吉姆·麦戈文的玛丽亚·科斯塔。

About a dozen politicians showed up or sent their aides, most of them state and local representatives who can't do much about the federal immigration law.

大约有十几名政客出席或派出了他们的助手，其中大多数是州和地方代表，他们对联邦移民法无能为力。

The women go up to the podium first-- a niece, a few sisters, a wife, several mothers-- and each one gets a few sentences into her story about someone's deportation and starts to cry.

女人们首先走上讲台——一位侄女、几位姐妹、一位妻子、几位母亲——每个人都在讲述某人被驱逐出境的故事时开始哭泣。

Good afternoon, everybody.

My name Mary [UNINTELLIGIBLE].

I come today here to talk about my brother, Norbert Souza.

我今天来这里是为了谈谈我的兄弟诺伯特·苏扎。

He's in a jail for nine months.

So I'm so confused in this life because--

所以我这一生很困惑，因为——

--but this time it was different.

——但这一次不同。

In our car ride on the way to the airport, he told me, "Melanie, Titi's very sick."'

在我们去机场的路上，他告诉我，“梅勒妮，蒂蒂病得很厉害。”

My name is Lillian Rodericks.

And I'm speaking on behalf of my husband.

Good evening.

晚上好。

I'm here on behalf of my brother, Emmanual [?

Meros.

梅罗斯。

?] He came to the US at the age of two and a half.

？] 他两岁半来到美国。

This is the first political involvement of any kind that most of these women have ever had.

这是大多数女性第一次参与政治活动。

As the number of deportees has grown and affected more and more families, even not very civic-minded people are becoming outraged.

随着被驱逐者人数的增加并影响到越来越多的家庭，即使是不太有公民意识的人也变得愤怒。

Guilherme Lourenco is a New Bedford fisherman, a sea scalloper.

吉列尔姆·洛伦索 (Guilherme Lourenco) 是新贝德福德的一名渔民，是一名海扇贝。

He was taken to Louisiana by the INS and detained for 15 months, after which his immigration case was decided in his favor, thanks to a lot of fancy footwork from his lawyer.

他被移民局带到路易斯安那州并被拘留了 15 个月，之后，由于他的律师的大量花招，他的移民案件得到了对他有利的裁决。

He says his time away from home was especially hard on his two sons.

他说，离开家的时间对他的两个儿子来说尤其艰难。

They used to send me things that they'd drawn in school and stuff.

他们常常寄给我他们在学校画的东西之类的东西。

And there was a lot of things that I notice about them, is they've changed, where they used to like-- you know, all kids used to like firemen, policemen.

我注意到他们有很多事情，他们过去喜欢的地方已经改变了——你知道，所有的孩子过去都喜欢消防员、警察。

I'm going to be that when I grow up.

And they had it different-- they would send me pictures of the cops getting killed.

他们的做法有所不同——他们会给我发警察被杀的照片。

And I didn't really care too much for that.

They lost some of the respect, I think, for authority.

我认为他们失去了对权威的一些尊重。

They knew I was being held for no crime, or a crime that I already had committed and paid for.

他们知道我被关押并不是因为犯罪，或者是我已经犯下并付出了代价的犯罪。

So there was no reason for me being in jail.

I think that's the way they looked at it.

Lillian Rodericks is raising her three kids alone since her husband was deported a year ago.

自从她的丈夫一年前被驱逐出境以来，莉莲·罗德里克斯独自抚养她的三个孩子。

And they're not doing so well.

While we're talking, Lillian's youngest child comes in, her eight-year-old son, Derek.

当我们谈话时，莉莲最小的孩子进来了，她八岁的儿子德里克。

He went with her to visit his father in Portugal the summer.

那年夏天，他和她一起去葡萄牙看望他的父亲。

She pulls his roller blades off for him.

The three of them are not participating in school.

他们三人均未上学。

I just had a meeting with the principal from his school.

我刚刚与他学校的校长会面。

They told me, since we came back from seeing his father, he's had a major attitude.

他们告诉我，自从我们见到他父亲回来后，他的态度就很重要。

The principal said he's acting out on them.

Because he's a child.

因为他还是个孩子。

He doesn't know how to put his feelings, so this is where he's bringing out his feelings, at the school.

他不知道如何表达自己的感情，所以这就是他表达感情的地方，在学校。

And that's what's happening with my other two.

So when they changed this law, they didn't punish them, they punished the family, the children.

所以当他们改变这条法律时，他们没有惩罚他们，而是惩罚了家庭、孩子。

The '96 immigration law was passed in the wake of the Oklahoma City bombing and the World Trade Center bombing.

96 年的移民法是在俄克拉荷马城爆炸案和世贸中心爆炸案之后通过的。

Its sponsors hope to combat terrorists, and to stop what they thought were lenient immigration judges from allowing so many convicted felons to stay in the US.

其发起者希望打击恐怖分子，并阻止他们认为宽大的移民法官允许这么多被定罪的重罪犯留在美国。

Immigration lawyer Fred Watt.

I don't think that the average Republican or Democrat was aware of what this law was going to do.

我认为一般共和党或民主党人都不知道这项法律的作用。

I'm not even sure the people who wrote it had a full understanding of it, because it took months for the immigration law community to understand it.

我什至不确定写它的人是否完全理解它，因为移民法界花了几个月的时间才理解它。

I don't think that they necessarily meant it to affect the number of people it did.

我认为他们并不一定意味着它会影响它所影响的人数。

And I base that just because nobody seemed to get it, for the longest time.

我之所以这么说只是因为在很长一段时间里似乎没有人明白这一点。

A good year.

And the judges and the bar were all scratching their heads as the full impact of the law became clear.

当法律的全面影响变得清晰时，法官和律师都摸不着头脑。

Here's one sign that Congress didn't intend for the law to work the way it has.

有一个迹象表明，国会并不打算让这项法律按照现在的方式运作。

There's a bill right now to soften some aspects of this law, backed by most of the original sponsors of the '96 law, and written by one of its key sponsors, Republican Bill McCollum of Florida.

目前有一项法案旨在软化该法律的某些方面，该法案得到了 96 年法律的大多数原始发起人的支持，并由其主要发起人之一、佛罗里达州共和党人比尔·麦科勒姆 (Bill McCollum) 起草。

It passed the House and is awaiting a Senate vote right now.

该法案已在众议院获得通过，目前正在等待参议院投票。

It would allow some people who have been deported retroactively to return.

这将允许一些被追溯驱逐出境的人返回。

Fred Watts says it would help about a third of his clients.

弗雷德·瓦茨表示，这将对他大约三分之一的客户有所帮助。

It won't affect any of the people we saw in the Bristol County jail, or Lillian Rodericks' husband, or Mario Fredas.

它不会影响我们在布里斯托尔县监狱看到的任何人，或者莉莲·罗德里克斯的丈夫，或者马里奥·弗雷达斯。

It won't do the thing opponents of the '96 law want most-- put these deportation cases in front of judges again, as they were before 1996.

它不会做 96 年法律的反对者最想要的事情——将这些驱逐案件再次提交给法官，就像 1996 年之前那样。

And I think that it's time that people thought about deportation for what it is.

我认为人们是时候思考驱逐出境的本质了。

I mean, really, it's almost like a little death penalty case, every time you do one.

我的意思是，真的，每次你做一件事，这几乎就像一个小小的死刑案件。

And that's maybe a little bit melodramatic, but when you see the families, particularly the mothers, this is about the worst thing that can happen to a family.

这可能有点夸张，但是当你看到这些家庭，尤其是母亲们时，这可能是一个家庭可能发生的最糟糕的事情。

I ask Mario Fredas, the guy who was nabbed with his bagel and coffee still sitting in his truck, for a tour of his house.

我请马里奥·弗雷达斯（Mario Fredas）参观他的房子，他的百吉饼和咖啡还放在卡车里，被抓了。

After he and Maria had been married a couple of years, he bought this old two-story house that was completely run-down, condemned in fact, for a really cheap price.

他和玛丽亚结婚几年后，他以非常便宜的价格买下了这座完全破旧的、事实上已经被谴责的两层老房子。

This is a brand-new kitchen.

这是一个全新的厨房。

It was an old one here.

So I took it down.

I did the floor tile.

I take all the walls down.

我把所有的墙都拆掉了。

I put new electrical, plumbing, insulation.

我安装了新的电气、管道和绝缘材料。

The house is beautiful, on a quiet street with other houses that look like it.

这房子很漂亮，位于一条安静的街道上，周围还有其他类似的房子。

He's got plans to fix the basement.

他计划修复地下室。

He says sometimes he relaxes in the backyard, daydreams about what he'll do with his life.

他说有时他会在后院放松，幻想着自己的人生会做什么。

And then he remembers all of a sudden how tenuous his future is, that he's still waiting for a final decision from INS.

然后他突然想起自己的未来是多么渺茫，他仍在等待 INS 的最终决定。

I'm just thinking, maybe next week I get deported.

我只是在想，也许下周我就会被驱逐出境。

Who knows?

谁知道？

I'm just thinking, if they come get me tomorrow-- I don't know.

我只是在想，如果他们明天来找我——我不知道。

Always my mind stops me, and says, you know, why am I trying to do this?

我的头脑总是阻止我，并说，你知道，我为什么要这样做？

Because I don't know what's going to happen to me.

因为我不知道我会发生什么。

It's like, I'm out of balance, you know?

就像，我失去了平衡，你知道吗？

Mario shows me a panoramic photo of the island where he comes from in the Azores, lush green farmland in all directions.

马里奥向我展示了一张他来自亚速尔群岛的岛屿的全景照片，四面八方都是郁郁葱葱的绿色农田。

And he points to the spot where he'll move back to if he gets deported.

他还指出了如果他被驱逐出境他将搬回的地方。

He says it's a very small town with no industry other than farming.

他说这是一个很小的城镇，除了农业之外没有其他产业。

I ask him if he thinks of himself as an American, and he says no. He knows he's Portuguese.

我问他是否认为自己是美国人，他说不。他知道他是葡萄牙人。

He says he's just built a life here, and had planned on living here forever, like a lot of other people do.

他说他刚刚在这里开始了生活，并计划像许多其他人一样永远住在这里。

Blue Chevigny.

蓝色切维尼。

Coming up, a US Congressman calls the Congress stupid.

接下来，一位美国国会议员称国会愚蠢。

That's right, stupid.

没错，傻瓜。

An INS official says that they're asked to enforce a law that's unfair.

移民局的一名官员表示，他们被要求执行一项不公平的法律。

And other examples of your government at work, in a minute, from Public Radio International when our program continues.

当我们的节目继续进行时，国际公共广播电台将介绍贵国政府工作的其他例子。

It's This American Life .

这就是美国生活。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Each week on our program, of course, we choose some theme, and bring you a variety of different kinds of stories on that theme.

当然，每周我们的节目都会选择一些主题，并为您带来有关该主题的各种不同类型的故事。

Today's show, an obscure law that you probably have not heard of that's deporting tens of thousands of people per year.

今天的节目是一项您可能没有听说过的晦涩法律，每年驱逐数万人。

We've arrived at Act Two of our show.

我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。

Act Two, Whose Idea Was This Anyway?

第二幕，这到底是谁的主意？

Thus far, on our program, we've been hearing about 1996 changes to the immigration law.

到目前为止，在我们的节目中，我们已经了解到 1996 年移民法的变化。

That law, of course, is enforced by the Immigration and Naturalization Service, and at this point, the INS officially opposes certain parts of the '96 Immigration Act even while it uses them to kick people out of the country.

当然，这项法律是由移民和归化局执行的，此时，移民归化局正式反对《96 年移民法》的某些部分，尽管该法利用这些部分将人们驱逐出境。

Bill Strassberger is a spokesperson for the agency in Washington DC.

比尔·斯特拉斯伯格是该机构驻华盛顿特区的发言人。

I think it's safe to say the INS feels that the law went a little too far, although we were pleased with a number of the things that were included in the law.

我认为可以肯定地说，移民局认为该法律有点过头了，尽管我们对该法律中包含的许多内容感到满意。

It's harsh.

这很严酷。

It was overreaching in many ways.

它在很多方面都太过分了。

It was probably the best compromise that was available at the time.

这可能是当时最好的妥协方案。

In what ways did it go too far, in INS's view?

在 INS 看来，它在哪些方面做得太过分了？

The retroactivity of the law, reaching back, penalizing those who were convicted previously.

法律的追溯力，可以追溯到以前被定罪的人。

I think the biggest problems, and what we really have advocated for the greatest change, is in the lack of discretion that we now have, that immigration judges now have.

我认为最大的问题，以及我们真正倡导的最大变革，是我们现在、移民法官现在缺乏自由裁量权。

INS would like to see a return to that discretion, to allow immigration judges to review the totality of someone's life, not just the fact that they were convicted of a relatively minor offense 15 years ago, let's say.

移民局希望看到这种自由裁量权回归，允许移民法官审查某人的全部生活，而不仅仅是他们 15 年前因相对轻微的罪行被定罪的事实。

It strikes me that INS is an odd situation, of having to enforce a law it doesn't agree with right now.

我觉得 INS 的处境很奇怪，因为它必须执行一项它现在不同意的法律。

Well, that's quite often the case in law enforcement.

嗯，执法中经常出现这种情况。

The old phrase is, "I don't write the law.

老话说：“法律不是我制定的。

I just enforce them." And in many ways, that's true in this case.

I just enforce them."从很多方面来说，本案都是如此。

We give our input, but Congress does pass the law.

我们提出意见，但国会确实通过了法律。

The president signs the bill.

总统签署该法案。

And then we have to enforce it.

然后我们必须执行它。

Bill Strassberger of the INS.

INS 的比尔·斯特拉斯伯格。

Meanwhile, legislators are hard at work backpedaling on the law.

与此同时，立法者正在努力改变法律。

As you've heard, one of the original sponsors of the '96 act, Congressman Bill McCollum of Florida, has drafted a new bill that undoes some of the more controversial parts of his '96 law.

正如您所听说的，“96 年法案”的最初发起者之一、佛罗里达州国会议员比尔·麦科勒姆起草了一项新法案，废除了“96 年法案”中一些更具争议性的部分。

The House of Representatives has approved the measure.

众议院已批准该措施。

It's still awaiting a vote by the Senate.

目前仍在等待参议院投票。

But as it waits, the question is, why did they pass the '96 law in the first place, this law that they now want to fix?

但在等待的过程中，问题是，为什么他们首先要通过 96 年法律，而他们现在想要修改这项法律？

What were they hoping to accomplish?

他们希望实现什么目标？

It's a case of an outrageous law substantively being made in an outrageous way procedurally.

这是一个实质上以程序上令人发指的方式制定令人发指的法律的案例。

This is Congressman Barney Frank.

这是国会议员巴尼·弗兰克。

All of those Portuguese people from Fall River and New Bedford that we heard earlier in the program-- they're his constituents.

我们之前在节目中听到的所有来自福尔里弗和新贝德福德的葡萄牙人——他们都是他的选民。

They live in his district.

他们住在他的区。

And so he supports this new McCollum bill which reverses part of the '96 law.

因此，他支持这项新的麦科勒姆法案，该法案推翻了 96 年法律的部分内容。

Back in 1996, he was on the House committee that handled the immigration bill, and he says that to understand how the most controversial parts of the bill became law, consider just one of the most contentious pieces of all this, retroactivity.

早在 1996 年，他就曾是处理移民法案的众议院委员会成员，他表示，要了解该法案中最具争议的部分如何成为法律，只需考虑其中最具争议的部分之一，即追溯性。

He says the committee considered a proposal that would make tougher immigration standards retroactive.

他说，委员会考虑了一项将使更严格的移民标准具有追溯力的提案。

Now, when they offered that in the committee, we were able to defeat them.

现在，当他们在委员会中提出这一点时，我们就能够击败他们。

The Republicans win most things around here, but this was so bad that almost all the Democrats and a couple of Republicans rebelled.

共和党在这里赢得了大部分胜利，但情况太糟糕了，几乎所有民主党人和一些共和党人都反抗了。

The bill, without retroactivity, went forward.

该法案没有追溯力，继续推进。

The House and Senate approved it.

众议院和参议院批准了该法案。

And then comes the procedure that Barney Frank was just calling outrageous.

接下来是巴尼·弗兰克所说的令人愤慨的程序。

A conference committee met.

会议委员会召开了会议。

That's a committee with both members of the House and the Senate.

这是一个由众议院和参议院议员组成的委员会。

Well, they didn't exactly meet in the normal way.

好吧，他们并没有以正常的方式见面。

The final bill was written by the Republicans in a conference committee which never met.

最终法案是由共和党在一个从未开会的会议委员会中起草的。

Literally, the Democrats were excluded.

从字面上看，民主党被排除在外。

The Republican leaderships of the two committees wrote the bill.

两个委员会的共和党领导人起草了该法案。

They put in that provision that had been defeated by vote of committee, the provision that said, you will retroactively be deportable automatically for certain crimes that had not previously carried that penalty.

他们加入了被委员会投票否决的条款，该条款规定，如果你犯了某些以前没有受到过这种惩罚的罪行，你将被自动驱逐出境。

And then they put it into the omnibus appropriation bill of that year.

然后他们将其纳入当年的综合拨款法案中。

This is the bill that funds all of government activities?

这是资助所有政府活动的法案吗？

Exactly.

确切地。

Or most of them.

或者他们中的大多数。

Now, the immigration bill had been voted on, in the House at least, and maybe in the Senate, separately.

现在，移民法案已经分别在众议院和参议院分别进行了投票。

But at that time, these obnoxious provisions about retroactivity weren't in it.

但当时，这些令人讨厌的关于追溯力的规定并不在其中。

They were added by the Republican congressional leadership in a last-minute secret meeting and incorporated into the overall bill so there was never any chance to vote on them.

它们是由共和党国会领导层在最后一刻的秘密会议上添加的，并纳入整个法案中，因此从来没有机会对其进行投票。

Were you following this closely enough yourself that you actually were aware that this thing had been put back in?

你自己是否足够密切地关注这件事，以至于你真的意识到这个东西已经被放回去了？

Oh, yes.

哦是的。

Yes, because I was a member of the House/Senate conference committee that never met.

是的，因为我是众议院/参议院会议委员会的成员，但从未见过面。

And we insisted, finally, the Democrats, on a meeting.

最后，我们坚持要求民主党举行会议。

But at the meeting, no motions were allowed.

但会议上没有提出任何动议。

The rules of the House and the Senate allowed them to do this.

众议院和参议院的规则允许他们这样做。

And they explained that they were doing this.

他们解释说他们正在这样做。

We complained about it and we objected very strenuously, but the problem was that, in the first place, other parts of the immigration bill seem attractive to people.

我们对此有所抱怨，也非常强烈地反对，但问题是，首先，移民法案的其他部分似乎对人们很有吸引力。

But even worse, there was never any separate vote on this.

但更糟糕的是，从来没有对此进行过任何单独的投票。

It was just part of the one overall package.

这只是整个计划的一部分。

Now when this passed in '96, did legislators understand what they were passing?

现在，当96年通过这项法案时，立法者们明白他们正在通过什么吗？

Most did not, unfortunately.

不幸的是，大多数人没有。

Most members did not know that the ultimate bill they were voting for included this obnoxious provision.

大多数成员并不知道他们投票支持的最终法案包含了这一令人讨厌的条款。

But the Republican leadership manipulated the procedures so that they were able to do it anyway.

但共和党领导层操纵了程序，以便他们无论如何都能做到这一点。

So you have this new bill which is now working its way through the legislative process.

因此，这项新法案目前正在通过立法程序。

It's past the House, correct.

它已经过了众议院，对的。

Ira Glass What would it change?

Ira Glass 会改变什么？

It undoes most of the bad effects but not all of the retroactivity.

它可以消除大部分不良影响，但不能消除所有追溯性。

And it also says, very importantly, at my insistence, if you have already been deported because of this, and you can show that you would not have been deported had the law not been so changed, you can come home.

非常重要的是，它还说，在我的坚持下，如果您已经因此被驱逐出境，并且您可以证明如果法律没有如此改变，您就不会被驱逐出境，那么您可以回家。

So the nice thing is that we're doing away with retroactivity retroactively.

因此，令人高兴的是我们正在取消追溯性。

Common sense will come back into the process.

常识将回到这个过程中。

My understanding, though, is that what's going through in this current legislation is that it doesn't give judges discretion again for these cases since '96.

不过，我的理解是，自 96 年以来，现行立法不再赋予法官对这些案件的自由裁量权。

Right.

正确的。

Since '96 it does not.

As I said, it only repeals the retroactivity.

正如我所说，它只是废除了追溯力。

Why doesn't Congress just let the immigration judges look at the cases--

为什么国会不让移民法官审理这些案件——

Well, why don't you ask the people who are doing that?

好吧，你为什么不问问那些正在做这件事的人呢？

I thought it was stupid and cruel then.

我当时觉得这很愚蠢而且残忍。

I still think it is.

And I oppose it.

我反对。

I can't tell you.

我不能告诉你。

I really am not a good explainer of other people's bad mistakes and evil intentions.

我真的不擅长解释别人的错误和恶意。

I have enough trouble with my own.

我自己的麻烦已经够多了。

Congressman Barney Frank.

国会议员巴尼·弗兰克。

We invited the key Republican legislators behind the '96 law to come onto our program and explain why they thought it was necessary in the first place.

我们邀请了 96 年法律背后的主要共和党立法者参加我们的节目，并解释为什么他们认为这项法律首先是必要的。

All four-- Congressman Lamar Smith of Texas, Bill McCollum of Florida, Henry Hyde of Illinois, and Senator Spence Abraham of Michigan-- all declined our interview requests, saying they were too busy with the end of the legislative session and the fall elections.

这四人——德克萨斯州国会议员拉马尔·史密斯、佛罗里达州比尔·麦科勒姆、伊利诺伊州参议员亨利·海德和密歇根州参议员斯彭斯·亚伯拉罕——都拒绝了我们的采访请求，称他们忙于立法会议的结束和秋季选举。

So to understand better why we as a nation might want these controversial parts of the law, we turn to an organization called FAIR, the Federation for American Immigration Reform, which strongly supported the '96 law and still stands by it.

因此，为了更好地理解为什么我们作为一个国家可能需要法律中这些有争议的部分，我们求助于一个名为 FAIR（美国移民改革联合会）的组织，该组织强烈支持 96 年法律，并且仍然坚持它。

We're talking about immigrants to this country who have not become US citizens, who are simply living here under our laws as, in effect, guests either invited or uninvited.

我们谈论的是尚未成为美国公民的这个国家的移民，他们只是根据我们的法律居住在这里，实际上是受邀或不受邀请的客人。

This is Jack Martin, director for special projects at FAIR.

我是杰克·马丁 (Jack Martin)，FAIR 特殊项目总监。

We certainly have felt that it is fair that an active effort was undertaken for removing people who have abused the hospitality of our society.

我们当然认为，积极努力清除那些滥用我们社会热情好客的人是公平的。

Let's talk about retroactivity a little bit.

让我们稍微谈谈追溯性。

One of our producers met a man named Mario Fredas who was convicted of drug charges, served three years, got out in 1991.

我们的一位制片人遇到了一位名叫马里奥·弗雷达斯 (Mario Fredas) 的男子，他被判犯有毒品罪，服刑三年，于 1991 年出狱。

He was a green card holder.

他是绿卡持有者。

He cleaned up, has a family and kids now, works on the Big Dig in Boston.

他清理干净了，现在有了家庭和孩子，在波士顿的大挖掘机工作。

Didn't he already pay for his crime?

他不是已经为自己的罪行付出了代价了吗？

What good does it do to deport him?

驱逐他有什么好处？

There are many cases that have received publicity of people such as the one that you're referring to, who have committed what may seem a fairly minor offense.

有很多案件都受到了人们的关注，比如你所提到的那个人，他们犯下了看似相当轻微的罪行。

And even though they have paid a debt to society, under the law, if they had just come into the country after the '96 act, they would be deportable at the time that they had paid their service.

即使他们已经向社会偿还了债务，但根据法律，如果他们在 96 年法案之后刚刚进入该国，他们在缴纳服务费时就会被驱逐出境。

In other words, we have judged that these people have abused their immigrant status and should be removed back to the country that they came from.

换句话说，我们判断这些人滥用了他们的移民身份，应该被遣返回他们的祖国。

And I think that you can make a reasonable case for people in certain limited circumstances where they've demonstrated that they are responsible members of the society to continue to stay in this country.

我认为你可以为在某些有限情况下的人们提出合理的理由，只要他们证明他们是社会的负责任的成员，就可以继续留在这个国家。

But the Attorney General's discretionary power, under the law, is amply sufficient for taking care of these exceptional cases.

但根据法律，总检察长的自由裁量权足以处理这些特殊案件。

In other words, the Attorney General can overturn these cases and basically say, these people shouldn't be deported.

换句话说，总检察长可以推翻这些案件，基本上可以说，这些人不应该被驱逐出境。

It's not fair.

这不公平。

That's correct.

这是正确的。

Ira Glass Why not just have judicial review?

艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）为什么不直接进行司法审查？

Why not just have immigration judges look at the cases, the way it was before?

为什么不让移民法官像以前那样审理案件呢？

If somebody's going to have to weigh the merits of each case.

如果有人必须权衡每个案件的优点。

Well, the main reason for that is because that lends itself to judicial shopping, which was a standard practice and one of the main abuses that the '96 act was intending to correct.

嗯，主要原因是因为这会导致司法购物，这是一种标准做法，也是 96 年法案打算纠正的主要滥用行为之一。

A lot of immigration lawyers were in effect given free rein to shop around from judge to judge during a very lengthy and extensive appeal process that ended only when they were able to find the judge, finally, who would agree to forgive the offense and allow that person to stay in the country.

许多移民律师实际上在一个非常漫长而广泛的上诉过程中可以自由地从法官到法官进行比较，只有当他们最终找到同意宽恕罪行并允许该人留在该国的法官时，该过程才结束。

Jack Martin of the Federation for American Immigration Reform.

美国移民改革联盟的杰克·马丁。

He's exactly right, by the way, that the Attorney General has the power under current law to stop deportation of anybody who she thinks is deserving.

顺便说一句，他说得完全正确，根据现行法律，司法部长有权阻止任何她认为应得的人被驱逐出境。

Janet Reno could issue an order allowing Mario Fredas, or any other potential deportees, to stay in the US.

珍妮特·雷诺可以发布命令，允许马里奥·弗雷达斯或任何其他潜在的被驱逐者留在美国。

In fact, the INS itself has the power to look the other way in any case and not deport somebody.

事实上，移民局本身有权在任何情况下视而不见，不驱逐某人。

But it's almost never done.

但这几乎从未完成过。

Presumably this is why.

想必这就是原因。

If Janet Reno or the INS pardon somebody who then went on to commit terrible crimes, the Attorney General and her party and its candidates-- they are the ones who would take the blame.

如果珍妮特·雷诺或移民局赦免了后来犯下可怕罪行的人，那么司法部长及其政党及其候选人——他们将承担责任。

Now, the Republicans say that is just fine.

现在，共和党人说这很好。

If something bad happens, politicians should take the heat for it.

如果发生不好的事情，政客们应该承担责任。

And Republican congressmen like Lamar Smith have been saying for years now that INS does not need a new law.

拉马尔·史密斯等共和党国会议员多年来一直表示 INS 不需要制定新法律。

It should just make exceptions for those cases that merit it.

它应该只对那些值得的情况进行例外处理。

I asked Barney Frank what he thought about his colleague saying that.

我问巴尼·弗兰克，他对他的同事这么说有何看法。

Oh, that's an outrageous cover-up of themselves.

哦，这真是令人愤慨的掩盖自己。

If you go back to the debates in '96, their argument was precisely that they had to take away the discretion from the INS.

如果你回顾一下 96 年的辩论，他们的论点恰恰是他们必须剥夺 INS 的自由裁量权。

Then, when that law began to have outrageous results, they said, "Well, it's not our fault.

然后，当这项法律开始产生令人震惊的结果时，他们说：“好吧，这不是我们的错。

The INS should have used its discretion." But the very purpose of the law was to take away the discretion.

移民归化局应该运用其自由裁量权。”但该法律的真正目的是剥夺自由裁量权。

You know what their argument is?

你知道他们的论点是什么吗？

Well, the INS in effect should ignore the law selectively.

好吧，移民归化局实际上应该选择性地无视法律。

Even though the law says these people should automatically be deported, the INS should simply refuse to invoke it in these cases.

尽管法律规定这些人应该自动被驱逐出境，但移民局应该拒绝在这些情况下援引该法律。

Now, I think that's probably true in a lot of these cases, but don't pass a law and then blame the INS for carrying out the law that you passed, and say, well, it's their fault, they should have ignored me.

现在，我认为在很多情况下这可能都是正确的，但不要通过一项法律，然后指责移民局执行你通过的法律，然后说，好吧，这是他们的错，他们应该忽视我。

One last political note with all this.

关于这一切的最后一个政治说明。

We contacted the two presidential campaigns to find out where they stand on the '96 immigration law.

我们联系了两位总统竞选团队，了解他们对 96 年移民法的立场。

Of course, in the scheme of presidential politics, this is not a very big issue.

当然，在总统政治的方案中，这并不是一个很大的问题。

And, in fact, the Bush campaign does not have an official position on the law.

事实上，布什竞选团队对该法律并没有正式立场。

The Gore campaign does, though.

不过，戈尔的竞选活动确实如此。

Candidate Gore believes that the '96 law went too far, and favors putting these cases back in the hands of judges.

候选人戈尔认为96年的法律太过分了，并赞成将这些案件重新交还给法官。

[MUSIC -- "I'M JUST A BILL" BY SCHOOLHOUSE ROCK]

[音乐——SCHOOLHOUSE ROCK 的《I'M JUST A BILL》]

Act Three, Man Without a Country.

第三幕，无国之人。

This next story is about another little-known part of US immigration policy.

下一个故事是关于美国移民政策的另一个鲜为人知的部分。

What happens if the INS wants to deport you but there is nowhere to deport you to?

如果移民局想要驱逐您，但无处可驱逐您，会发生什么情况？

People awaiting deportation, by the way, are housed in county jails around the country.

顺便说一句，等待驱逐的人被关押在全国各地的县监狱中。

And they can be there for a long, long time.

他们可以在那里呆很长很长一段时间。

Alex Kotlowitz has this story about the unusual relationships that sometimes form between these deportees and their jailers.

亚历克斯·科特洛维茨（Alex Kotlowitz）讲述了这些被驱逐者和狱卒之间有时形成的不寻常关系的故事。

On a recent Friday night in Victoria, Texas, a blue-collar town of 60,000, I met up with Trung Tran.

最近的一个周五晚上，我在得克萨斯州维多利亚这个拥有 6 万人口的蓝领小镇见到了 Trung Tran。

Trung is a Vietnamese immigrant and had driven the two hours from Houston where he works as a lab technician at a sleep disorder clinic.

Trung 是越南移民，从休斯敦开车两个小时过来，在一家睡眠障碍诊所担任实验室技术员。

He's 33, broad-shouldered, handsome, and well-dressed in a sapphire blue shirt, khaki pants, and Tommy Hilfiger boots.

他今年 33 岁，肩膀宽阔，英俊潇洒，穿着宝蓝色衬衫、卡其色裤子和 Tommy Hilfiger 靴子。

Together we drove to the home of Virginia [?

我们一起驱车前往弗吉尼亚的家[？

Escahito ?] and her husband, Lupe.

Escahito ？] 和她的丈夫 Lupe。

Virginia had met Trung when she was a guard at the local jail and Trung was an inmate.

弗吉尼亚在当地监狱当看守时认识了特朗，而特朗还是一名囚犯。

Virginia, who is 45, is a short roundish woman with red hair and rosy cheeks.

弗吉尼亚今年 45 岁，身材矮小，身材圆润，一头红发，脸颊红润。

She feels somewhat maternal towards Trung, and when we arrived, she embraced him.

她对特隆感到有点母性，当我们到达时，她拥抱了他。

Pretty good.

不错。

Alex Kotlowitz Virginia pulled on Trung's thick black hair.

亚历克斯·科特洛维茨·弗吉尼亚拉扯特朗浓密的黑发。

It's grayer.

颜色更灰了

Virginia Escahito ?] --to see if it's any grayer.

Virginia Escahito？]——看看它是否变灰了。

Because it was jet black in the jail went I met him.

因为监狱里漆黑一片，我就遇见了他。

And he was so, so skinny, and I was kind of worried for him for a while.

他是如此非常瘦，有一段时间我有点担心他。

And now his cheeks are chunky, and he's got a little gray hair.

现在他的脸颊变得粗壮了，头发也有些白了。

Every time I see him, I see more.

每次看到他，我都会看到更多。

But he looks good.

但他看起来不错。

I'm glad to see him.

我很高兴见到他。

This is the story of an unlikely friendship, friendship between captor and captured, a connection that pushed both an American and an immigrant to question their place in America.

这是一个关于一种不太可能的友谊的故事，俘虏者和被俘者之间的友谊，这种联系促使美国人和移民质疑他们在美国的地位。

This tale begins in 1975, when Trung and his family fled Vietnam for America.

这个故事始于 1975 年，当时 Trung 和他的家人逃离越南前往美国。

Trung was seven at the time.

特朗当时七岁。

His mother had worked for the US military.

他的母亲曾在美国军队工作。

The Trans eventually settled in Houston, where Trung's parents bought and ran a convenience store.

跨性别者最终定居在休斯顿，特朗的父母在那里购买并经营了一家便利店。

Trung quickly adapted to his new country.

特朗很快就适应了他的新国家。

In high school he ran track.

高中时他参加了田径比赛。

On weekends, he attended Friday night football games and afterwards joined classmates at Kentucky Fried Chicken.

周末，他参加周五晚上的橄榄球比赛，然后和同学一起去肯德基。

His date for the prom was the homecoming queen.

他参加舞会的约会对象是返校节女王。

Those he hung out with, he says, were all Americans.

他说，和他一起出去玩的都是美国人。

He had no Vietnamese friends.

他没有越南朋友。

I just lived since then like a typical American kid, grew up and played sports and went to school and did the whole nine yards.

从那时起，我就像一个典型的美国孩子一样生活，长大，参加体育运动，上学，跑了整个九码。

And I went through the procedure of even trying to apply for citizenship with my whole family.

我什至和全家一起经历了申请公民身份的程序。

And I went through, took the test and everything.

我经历了，参加了测试以及一切。

And the whole time, I graduated from high school, went and filled out my draft card, did the whole thing.

整个过程中，我高中毕业，去填写我的选秀卡，完成了整个事情。

And already, I filled out my financial aid paper and anything else-- I'd put down as a US citizen.

我已经填写了经济援助文件和其他任何东西——我作为美国公民填写了这些文件。

Trung went on to college at Texas Southern University, and there he lost his footing.

特朗继续在德克萨斯南方大学上大学，在那里他失去了立足点。

His grades slipped and his scholarship was rescinded.

他的成绩下滑，奖学金被取消。

He began to sell crack cocaine, and he was pretty good at it, netting $500 to a $1,000 a week.

他开始销售强效可卡因，并且非常擅长，每周净赚 500 至 1,000 美元。

On October 19, 1992, he was arrested and charged with drug trafficking and money laundering.

1992年10月19日，他被捕并被指控贩毒和洗钱。

He plead guilty to both counts and served 32 months in federal prison.

他对两项罪名均表示认罪，并在联邦监狱服刑 32 个月。

But when his time was up, he wasn't released.

但当他的刑期结束时，他并没有被释放。

Trung, in fact, was not a citizen, though he was a lawful permanent resident.

事实上，特朗不是公民，尽管他是合法永久居民。

While he had begun the application process, he never completed it.

虽然他已经开始了申请过程，但他从未完成。

Given the serious nature of Trung's crime and the fact that he was not a citizen, an immigration judge could and did decide to deport him.

鉴于特朗犯罪的严重性以及他不是公民的事实，移民法官可以而且确实决定将他驱逐出境。

But there was a catch.

但有一个问题。

Vietnam is one of a number of countries, including Cuba, Cambodia, and Laos, which won't accept deported individuals.

越南是古巴、柬埔寨和老挝等多个不接受被驱逐者的国家之一。

And so Trung was without a homeland.

因此，特朗没有祖国。

Vietnam didn't want him, nor did the US.

越南不想要他，美国也不想要他。

So what to do?

那么该怎么办呢？

The INS's policy has been to keep people like Trung incarcerated, even though they've completed their criminal sentences.

移民局的政策是继续监禁像特朗这样的人，即使他们已经服完刑期。

The INS sent Trung to the county jail in New Braunfels, Texas.

移民局将特朗送往德克萨斯州新布朗费尔斯县监狱。

To tell you the truth, at first when I was in INS detention, it was like a cat and mouse game between the officers and the inmates.

说实话，一开始我在移民局拘留期间，警察和囚犯之间就像一场猫捉老鼠的游戏。

And they had a lot of officers that were veterans, because they went to the military and so forth.

他们有很多军官都是退伍军人，因为他们参军等等。

So they would make comments, calling me [UNINTELLIGIBLE PHRASE] VC, stuff like that.

所以他们会发表评论，称我为[难以理解的短语]VC，诸如此类。

When they served us our meal time-- "Here, you little VC, get your food."

当他们为我们提供用餐时间时——“给你，你这个小VC，拿你的食物来。”

Then, in May of 1997, Trung was transferred to the county jail in Victoria.

随后，1997 年 5 月，Trung 被转移到维多利亚县监狱。

Trung had no reason to expect he'd be treated any different there.

特朗没有理由期望他在那里会受到任何不同的待遇。

The building itself is an imposing two-story cinder block structure, and like most county jails was built to hold inmates for only short stretches, anywhere from a few hours to a few months, while they awaited their trial or their sentencing.

该建筑本身是一座雄伟的两层煤渣砖结构，与大多数县监狱一样，其建造目的只是为了在等待审判或宣判期间短暂关押囚犯，从几个小时到几个月不等。

The jail doesn't allow television.

监狱里不让看电视。

The only outdoor facilities are two courtyards, each the size of a basketball court.

唯一的室外设施是两个庭院，每个庭院都有一个篮球场那么大。

Inmates are allowed outside for a total of three hours a week.

囚犯每周最多可以外出三个小时。

Inmates have no privacy.

囚犯没有隐私。

There are no cells, just dormitory-style locked rooms which house anywhere from 4 to 24 prisoners in bunk beds.

这里没有牢房，只有宿舍式的上锁房间，里面可容纳 4 至 24 名囚犯，睡在双层床上。

It's jail facilities like this, designed for locking people up temporarily, to which the INS sends those like Trung whom it's detaining for indefinite periods.

像这样的监狱设施是为暂时关押人而设计的，移民局将像特朗这样的人无限期拘留到那里。

There are roughly 4,000 such detainees, which publicly the INS refers to as long-termers, and which internally the agency has called lifers, a suggestion that this could be their permanent home.

大约有 4,000 名此类被拘留者，移民局公开将他们称为长期拘留者，而该机构内部则将他们称为终身拘留者，这表明这可能是他们的永久住所。

At Victoria, Trung shared a cell with Julio Martul.

在维多利亚，特朗与胡里奥·马图尔共用一间牢房。

Julio, who was a legal permanent resident as well, emigrated from Cuba, committed a crime, served his six months, and was then ordered deported.

胡里奥也是合法永久居民，他从古巴移民，犯了罪，服刑六个月，然后被下令驱逐出境。

But Cuba won't take him back, so he was placed in the Victoria county jail indefinitely.

但古巴不会把他带回来，所以他被无限期地关押在维多利亚县监狱。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator There are some people who were sentenced here to two years.

[说西班牙语] 翻译有一些人在这里被判处两年徒刑。

Then they let them out.

然后他们就把他们放了出来。

They've come back here, committed another crime.

他们回到这里又犯下了另一桩罪行。

They served their time, they let them out, and now they're back a third time.

他们服刑完毕后将他们释放，现在他们第三次回来了。

And they'll come back here and they ask me, "When are you going to get out?" And they don't believe it.

他们会回到这里问我，“你什么时候出去？”他们不相信。

It's at the Victoria county jail where Trung met Virginia.

正是在维多利亚县监狱，特朗遇见了弗吉尼亚。

Virginia was a jail guard responsible for the institution's educational program.

弗吉尼亚是一名监狱看守，负责该机构的教育计划。

Many of the detainees attended language classes, and they would tell her of their situation.

许多被拘留者参加了语言课程，他们会告诉她他们的情况。

"How could someone be in jail and not know when they were getting out?" She would ask of them.

“怎么可能有人进了监狱却不知道自己什么时候能出来呢？”她会向他们询问。

She was puzzled.

她很困惑。

?] Because they had no date, no release date.

？]因为他们没有日期，没有发布日期。

There was no release date for them.

他们没有发布日期。

And I'm going, everybody's got a release date here.

我要走了，每个人都有一个发布日期。

Except INS.

除了INS。

And it was just unreal.

这太不真实了。

I couldn't comprehend that.

我无法理解这一点。

I'd come home and tell my husband, I'm in the wrong job.

我回家后告诉我丈夫，我做错了工作。

I'm just in the wrong job, because it was just so frustrating sometimes.

我只是做错了工作，因为有时真的很令人沮丧。

And I felt like I couldn't do enough for these people.

我觉得我为这些人做的还不够。

I couldn't do enough.

我做得还不够。

She began to call the INS to try to get some answers for Julio, Trung, and the others.

她开始给移民局打电话，试图为胡里奥、特朗和其他人寻求一些答案。

I think, though, she was also trying to make sense of it herself.

不过，我认为她自己也试图理解这一点。

?] I would ask, what was their status?

？]我会问，他们的状况如何？

They wanted to know, and we wanted to know also.

他们想知道，我们也想知道。

And they would just tell you that they couldn't tell you anything.

他们只会告诉你他们什么也不能告诉你。

?] Right.

？] 正确的。

That they could not tell me anything.

他们不能告诉我任何事情。

?] Well, I felt bad.

？] 嗯，我感觉很糟糕。

Because what was I going to tell these guys?

因为我要告诉这些人什么？

There they were, standing by me or sitting at the desk and waiting for an answer.

他们就在那里，或站在我身边，或坐在办公桌前等待答案。

And they were so happy that I was making a call for them.

他们很高兴我帮他们打电话。

And then for me to tell them, well, they wouldn't even talk to me, you know?

然后我告诉他们，好吧，他们甚至不跟我说话，你知道吗？

Other guards at Victoria, many of whom like Virginia are first- or second-generation Americans, were equally perplexed.

维多利亚的其他警卫，其中许多人像弗吉尼亚一样是第一代或第二代美国人，也同样感到困惑。

And so they too found ways to make life just a bit more bearable for these INS detainees.

因此，他们也找到了让这些移民局被拘留者的生活变得更容易忍受的方法。

The guards gave the lifers certain privileges and did so at some risk.

警卫给予无期徒刑者一定的特权，但这样做也冒着一定的风险。

A sergeant at a nearby jail was fired after she publicly questioned the policy of detaining immigrants indefinitely.

附近一所监狱的一名警官因公开质疑无限期拘留移民的政策而被解雇。

The guards at Victoria made many of them trustees, which allowed them some freedom of movement in the jail.

维多利亚监狱的看守任命他们中的许多人为受托人，这使他们在监狱中有一定的行动自由。

They were assigned to kitchen duties or to mopping floors, or in the case of Trung, to the GED program.

他们被分配到厨房或拖地，或者就特朗而言，被分配到 GED 项目。

Virginia looked out for Trung and the others.

弗吉尼亚留意着特朗和其他人。

?] Some of these inmates have not seen their families in so many years.

？] 其中一些囚犯已经很多年没有见到家人了。

And they would ask me, "Miss Virginia, my family hasn't seen me in so long.

他们会问我：“弗吉尼亚小姐，我的家人已经很久没有见到我了。

They don't even know how-- do you think you could take a picture of me?" And maybe I shouldn't have, but I did.

他们甚至不知道如何——你认为你可以给我拍张照片吗？”也许我不应该这么做，但我这么做了。

I took pictures of these guys and sent them home.

我给这些人拍了照片，然后把他们送回家。

And I think somebody had warned me, "Virginia, you know you might get in trouble by doing that to these inmates, because they're incarcerated." And I'd go, "Yeah, but they've already done their time."

我想有人警告过我，“弗吉尼亚，你知道对这些囚犯这样做可能会给你带来麻烦，因为他们被监禁了。”我会说，“是的，但他们已经完成了他们的时间。”

They were small favors, but they showed a level of trust that doesn't ordinarily exist between guard and prisoner.

这些都是小恩小惠，但却表现出了看守和囚犯之间通常不存在的信任程度。

Some deputies would bring back an extra hamburger or sandwich from lunch to give to the men.

一些代表会从午餐中带回额外的汉堡包或三明治给这些人。

Teachers at the jail gave the lifers email accounts so they could communicate with their attorneys, and allowed them access to the internet so they could keep up with the changes in the immigration law.

监狱的老师为无期徒刑犯提供了电子邮件帐户，以便他们可以与律师沟通，并允许他们访问互联网，以便他们能够跟上移民法的变化。

Trung, in fact, found an internet site in Spanish for Julio.

事实上，特朗为胡里奥找到了一个西班牙语网站。

One detainee, Victor [?

一名被拘留者，维克多 [？

Altume, ?] who'd served 16 years for kidnapping and aggravated battery, charges stemming from a bar fight, became the chef at the jail.

阿尔图姆 (Altum)，？] 因绑架和严重殴打罪以及酒吧斗殴罪被判入狱 16 年，后来成为监狱的厨师。

The deputy sheriffs were such fans of Victor's cooking that they'd bring Victor along to their Monday night softball games, where he'd grill for them their favorites-- fajitas, tacos, and hot dogs.

副警长们非常喜欢维克多的烹饪，他们会带维克多去看周一晚上的垒球比赛，在那里他会为他们烤他们最喜欢的食物——墨西哥卷饼、炸玉米饼和热狗。

Victor was so well-liked that when he went to a local hospital for emergency heart surgery, so many deputy sheriffs visited him the hospital staff thought he too was in law enforcement.

维克多非常受欢迎，以至于当他去当地一家医院进行紧急心脏手术时，很多副警长来看望他，医院工作人员还以为他也是执法人员。

A jail officer allowed Trung and five other lifers, including Julio, to room together.

一名监狱官员允许特朗和包括胡里奥在内的其他五名无期徒刑犯住在一起。

And the guards found ways to get the INS detainees outside for more than their allotted three hours a week.

警卫们想方设法让移民局的被拘留者在外面呆超过每周规定的三个小时。

?] Well, one time we went out and painted that mural.

？] 嗯，有一次我们出去画了那幅壁画。

And I was shocked when Miss Virginia said, well, you know your going out with us today, and we got approved from the INS.

当弗吉尼亚小姐说，好吧，你知道你今天和我们出去，而且我们得到了 INS 的批准时，我感到很震惊。

And please don't run on me.

还有，请不要追赶我。

?] And I was so scared when I first took Tran.

？] 当我第一次服用 Tran 时，我非常害怕。

I was going, "Tran, please don't run on me, Tran.

我当时想，“特兰，请不要追我，特兰。

Because I can't run that fast.

因为我跑不了那么快。

And I'm not going to run after you." And it's going to be my job, because they told me, "If he runs, it'll be your job."

而且我不会追你。”这将是我的工作，因为他们告诉我，“如果他竞选，这将是你的工作。”

For Trung and the others, there was a clear incentive to win over the guards.

对于特朗和其他人来说，有明显的动机去赢得警卫的支持。

About a year and a half ago, under pressure from immigrants' rights groups, the INS began reviewing the cases of lifers.

大约一年半前，在移民权利团体的压力下，移民局开始审查无期徒刑者的案件。

If the agency determined that the detainee was not a danger to society or a flight risk, they considered releasing them, and the only way Trung or the others could show that was by recommendations from those who knew them best, their captors.

如果该机构确定被拘留者不会对社会构成危险或有潜逃风险，他们就会考虑释放他们，而特朗或其他人证明这一点的唯一方法是通过最了解他们的人（即绑架者）的建议。

And indeed, the jail guards wrote letters to the INS, urging them to release these men.

事实上，监狱看守写信给移民局，敦促他们释放这些人。

One sergeant wrote on behalf of Victor, the cook, "When Victor leaves this jail, he will be missed by the employees.

一名警官代表厨师维克多写道：“当维克多离开这座监狱时，员工们将会想念他。

Many of us depend on him.

我们很多人都依赖他。

The only complaint I might have of Victor is he's a little heavy on the garlic." A dozen other guards and jail staff wrote on behalf of other detainees, including Julio and Trung.

我对维克多唯一的抱怨是他太爱吃大蒜了。”其他十几名警卫和监狱工作人员代表其他被拘留者写信，其中包括胡里奥和特朗。

And after two and a half years in indefinite detention, Victor, who's now 53, was released, and someone at the jail helped him get a job as chef at a small local seafood restaurant.

经过两年半的无限期拘留后，现年 53 岁的维克多被释放，监狱里的某人帮助他在当地一家小海鲜餐厅找到了一份厨师的工作。

Victor still volunteers his culinary skills at the guards' Monday night softball games.

维克多仍然在警卫队周一晚上的垒球比赛中展示他的烹饪技巧。

In July of last year, the INS agreed to release Trung, after four years in indefinite detention.

去年 7 月，移民归化局同意释放无限期拘留四年的特朗。

His family came up with the $15,000 bond.

他的家人拿出了 15,000 美元的保证金。

The INS determined he was no longer a danger or a flight risk.

移民局确定他不再具有危险或逃跑风险。

Trung had expected to get out on a Friday, but an INS agent came by two days early and told Trung to pack his stuff.

Trung 原本预计周五出发，但 INS 特工提前两天来了，让 Trung 收拾行李。

He wasn't quite ready to leave, though.

不过，他还没有准备好离开。

He first wanted to pass along some of the computerized records he'd been keeping for the jail's education programs.

他首先想传递一些他为监狱教育项目保存的计算机记录。

To tell you the truth, I told the officer, "Hey, I'm not even finished with my work here yet." At that time, I was so involved with the GED stuff up there, and I took care of a lot of the paperwork and stuff.

说实话，我告诉那位官员，“嘿，我还没完成这里的工作呢。”那时，我非常热衷于 GED 的工作，我处理了很多文书工作和其他事情。

And I wanted to show them everything before I go, so--

我想在走之前向他们展示一切，所以——

Let me get this straight.

让我说清楚。

So here they tell you you're free, and you say, "No, I want to stay in jail for a few extra days so I can help out the guards and the teachers here."

所以在这里他们告诉你你自由了，你说：“不，我想在监狱里多呆几天，这样我就可以帮助这里的警卫和老师。”

Yeah.

是的。

I want to go home, but then I also want to finish my job before I leave.

我想回家，但我也想在离开之前完成我的工作。

?] Tran and I got very close.

？] Tran 和我关系非常亲密。

We worked for a long time together.

我们一起工作了很长时间。

?] And still we see each other, and he tries to stop by once in a while.

？]我们仍然见面，他试图偶尔过来拜访一下。

And I just-- I love him.

我只是——我爱他。

And there's several other of the guys that write to me and send me letters.

还有其他几个人给我写信并寄信给我。

And I've kept every piece of mail from them.

我保留了他们寄来的每封邮件。

I've got it, too.

我也得到了。

Virginia goes into her bedroom and emerges rather excitedly bearing a shallow plastic bin.

维吉尼亚走进她的卧室，兴奋地拿着一个浅塑料箱出现。

She kneels and spills the contents onto the floor.

她跪下来，把里面的东西洒在地板上。

She's held onto everything.

她抓住了一切。

There are a pile of letters from former INS detainees and trinkets made by the Cubans.

这里有一堆前移民局被拘留者的信件和古巴人制作的小饰品。

?] All of these are nothing but handkerchiefs.

？] 所有这些都不过是手帕。

Trung leans back on the couch, calmly smiling.

特朗靠在沙发上，平静地微笑着。

Virginia's now a police officer in a nearby town, and she's still in uniform.

弗吉尼亚现在是附近小镇的一名警察，她仍然穿着制服。

She goes to sit next to him and pokes him in the ribs.

她走到他旁边坐下，戳戳他的肋骨。

"I'm glad you've put on some weight," she says, giggling.

“我很高兴你体重增加了，”她咯咯地笑着说。

She teases him about the female inmates in the jail.

她取笑他监狱里的女囚犯。

?] They would try to grab or something, and I'd go, don't you--

？]他们会试图抢东西什么的，然后我就走，不是吗——

Soon, another former guard, Mike Martinez, arrives.

很快，另一位前后卫迈克·马丁内斯到来。

He and Virginia ask Trung about Julio, Trung's old cellmate.

他和维吉尼亚向特朗询问特朗的老狱友胡里奥的情况。

The day before, Julio had marked his fifth anniversary at the Victoria jail.

前一天，胡里奥在维多利亚监狱庆祝了他入狱五周年。

It's possible he could be there for the rest of his life.

他可能会在那里度过余生。

In the eyes of the INS, if a detainee's crimes are serious enough that he seems like a threat to society, it doesn't matter how long he serves or what he does in jail.

在移民局看来，如果一名被拘留者的罪行严重到对社会构成威胁，那么他服刑多久或在监狱里做什么都无关紧要。

It's unlikely he'll be released.

他不太可能被释放。

Julio has submitted testimonials from jail staff but the INS has turned him down, possibly because his offenses are among the worst from the INS's point of view.

胡里奥已经提交了监狱工作人员的证词，但移民局拒绝了他，可能是因为从移民局的角度来看，他的罪行属于最严重的罪行之一。

He has five convictions for smuggling illegal aliens.

他曾五次因偷运非法外国人而被定罪。

Trung visits him on occasion, and recently sent him a gift, one which, intentional or not, bore a message of sorts.

特朗有时会拜访他，最近还送了他一份礼物，无论有意还是无意，这份礼物都传达了某种信息。

I bought Julio a big duffel bag so in case-- when he does get released, he'll have a bag to carry.

我给胡里奥买了一个大行李袋，以防万一——当他被释放时，他会有一个袋子可以随身携带。

Because I, myself, when I got released, I didn't have duffel bags.

因为我自己，当我被释放时，我没有行李袋。

I had two boxes full of legal documents.

我有两个装满法律文件的盒子。

And I was picked up from here by immigration and taken to San Antonio, and I had to catch a Greyhound back to Houston.

我被移民局从这里接走并带到圣安东尼奥，然后我必须搭乘灰狗巴士返回休斯顿。

And here I am, carrying two plastic container boxes walking around, with old clothing, you know?

我在这里，提着两个塑料容器走来走去，里面装着旧衣服，你知道吗？

So I felt sorry for Julio, so I ended up buying a duffel bag and some other stuff for him.

所以我为胡里奥感到难过，所以我最终给他买了一个行李袋和其他一些东西。

Trung himself is in a state of limbo.

特朗本人也处于一种不确定的状态。

If he gets in any kind of legal trouble, the INS could send him back to prison, and if and when Vietnam reaches an expatriation agreement with the US, Trung would be deported.

如果他遇到任何法律麻烦，移民局可能会将他送回监狱，而如果越南与美国达成遣返协议，Trung 将被驱逐出境。

This experience has-- and perhaps it was inevitable-- altered Trung's perception of himself.

这段经历——也许是不可避免的——改变了特朗对自己的看法。

He now considers himself Vietnamese, not American.

他现在认为自己是越南人，而不是美国人。

He reads a weekly Vietnamese newspaper and listens to Vietnamese music.

他阅读越南周刊并听越南音乐。

He only eats at Vietnamese restaurants.

他只在越南餐馆吃饭。

He sends money when he can to his grandmother who still lives in Saigon.

他尽可能地寄钱给仍然住在西贡的祖母。

With the exception of those he met at Victoria, he only hangs out with other Vietnamese immigrants, and for the first time, he's dating a Vietnamese woman.

除了他在维多利亚遇到的人之外，他只和其他越南移民一起出去玩，而且这是他第一次和越南女人约会。

I do.

我愿意。

I finally realized that I'm not that American kid that I once thought I was.

我终于意识到我并不是我曾经以为的那个美国孩子。

That status has been taken away from me, that, hey, you're just a visitor here.

这种地位已经从我身上夺走了，嘿，你只是这里的访客。

And that this door can shut at any given time, so don't have too much fun and get adapted to it.

而且这扇门可以随时关闭，所以不要有太多乐趣并适应它。

Virginia's journey has been a quieter but no less profound one.

弗吉尼亚的旅程较为平静，但同样意义深远。

?] Before I worked back in the jail, I wouldn't question anything.

？] 在我回到监狱工作之前，我不会质疑任何事情。

I'd go along with, OK, this is right.

我会同意，好吧，这是对的。

This is the law.

这是法律。

This is America.

这是美国。

This is the way it should be.

事情本来应该如此。

And now I'm going, uh-uh, there's something wrong here.

现在我要走了，呃呃，这里出了点问题。

Because it was just a shock to me, what they do to the INS inmates.

因为他们对移民局囚犯所做的事情让我感到震惊。

Yes, they've made mistakes but they've paid for those mistakes already.

是的，他们犯了错误，但他们已经为这些错误付出了代价。

Sometimes I think, who do we think we are?

有时候我在想，我们以为自己是谁？

God?

上帝？

To keep these people up here, like this-- it's not right.

像这样把这些人留在这里——这是不对的。

Virginia is not alone.

弗吉尼亚并不孤单。

When I was at the Victoria jail visiting Julio and the other detainees, a deputy sheriff who looked to be about 50 came up to me.

当我在维多利亚监狱探望胡里奥和其他被拘留者时，一位看起来大约 50 岁的副警长向我走来。

"Are you the one visiting the INS guys?" He asked, rather gruffly.

“你是拜访 INS 的人吗？”他问道，语气有些粗鲁。

I told him I was.

我告诉他我是。

He smiled.

他笑了。

"I just wanted to shake your hand," he said, "and say thank you." Thank you from a guard for doing a story on his prisoners.

“我只是想握你的手，”他说，“并说声谢谢。”一名警卫感谢您为他的囚犯做了一个故事。

"I do feel for these individuals," he told me.

“我确实同情这些人，”他告诉我。

"After all," he said, "they've served their time."

“毕竟，”他说，“他们已经服刑完毕了。”

Alex Kotlowitz is the author of There Are No Children Here and other books.

亚历克斯·科特洛维茨是《这里没有孩子》和其他书籍的作者。

Just this month, the Supreme Court agreed to hear two cases of these indefinite detainees, people who are in jail with no country to go back to.

就在本月，最高法院同意审理两起关于这些无限期拘留者的案件，这些人被关在监狱里，无国可回。

Well, our program was produced by Blue Chevigny and myself, with Alex Blumberg and Julie Snyder.

嗯，我们的节目是由 Blue Chevigny 和我本人以及 Alex Blumberg 和 Julie Snyder 制作的。

Production help from Todd Bachmann and Hillary Frank.

托德·巴赫曼 (Todd Bachmann) 和希拉里·弗兰克 (Hillary Frank) 为制作提供帮助。

[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.

[致谢]《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。

[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight by Torey Malatia, who, from the beginning, felt this way about the fact that we quote him at the end of each and every show--

[资金来源] WBEZ 管理由 Torey Malatia 负责监督，他从一开始就对我们在每场演出结束时引用他的话有这样的感觉——

I thought it was stupid and cruel then.

我当时觉得这很愚蠢而且残忍。

I still think it is.

我仍然认为是。

I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life.

我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。

This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。

中文为机器翻译，仅供参考。