168: The Fix Is In - This American Life

168：修复已完成

168 · This American Life · 原文

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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #168 | July 8, 2016 168: The Fix Is In Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

00:00 00:00 文字记录分享此美国生活生活伙伴如何收听剧集推荐关于概述员工公告奖学金工作音乐在路上制作电台常见问题解答提交商品联系我们我们的其他节目商品关注我们生活伙伴订阅我们的时事通讯整集切换音频和文字记录同步文字记录 | 内容第 168 集 | 2016 年 7 月 8 日 168：解决办法注意：《This American Life》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。

If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.

如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。

Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。

Prologue Ira Glass From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life distributed by Public Radio International.

序言 Ira Glass 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥，由国际公共广播电台发行的《美国生活》。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

And today's program is one that we first ran back in the year 2000.

今天的节目是我们在 2000 年首次举办的节目。

And we're rerunning it today because most of the show is about an FBI informant named Mark Whitacre.

我们今天重播它是因为该剧的大部分内容都是关于一位名叫马克·惠特克的联邦调查局线人的。

When this first aired, a screenwriter heard it on the radio.

当这个节目第一次播出时，一位编剧在广播中听到了它。

And he thought, this would make a good film.

他认为，这会成为一部好电影。

And this week, nine years later, that film, starring Matt Damon, directed by Steven Soderbergh, is opening around the country.

九年后的本周，这部由马特·达蒙主演、史蒂文·索德伯格执导的电影正在全国上映。

And we thought it would be fun to listen back to the amazing, true story.

我们认为聆听这个令人惊奇的真实故事会很有趣。

It's really quite something, what really happened.

这确实是一件很了不起的事情，真实发生过的事情。

But before we get to that story, just to kind of set things up and sort of set the stage for it, consider for a moment all the situations where you stop and you wonder, am I being paranoid?

但在我们开始讲这个故事之前，只是为了做好准备，为它奠定基础，请考虑一下所有你停下来想知道的情况，我是不是偏执了？

Is something wrong happening right in front of me here or is that just my imagination?

难道这一切就发生在我的眼前，还是只是我的想象？

People I know were complaining about the high price of milk.

我认识的人都在抱怨牛奶价格太高。

And my father-in-law, for example, who lives in Detroit, would come into town and say, my gosh, your milk is like a dollar higher that what we pay.

例如，我住在底特律的岳父会进城说，天哪，你们的牛奶比我们付的价格高出一美元。

This is Andy Hail, an attorney here in Chicago.

我是安迪·海尔，芝加哥的一名律师。

A year ago, he'd already sued a grocery store for anti-competitive practices.

一年前，他已经起诉一家杂货店的反竞争行为。

And when he looked into the price of milk, he found that the two big supermarkets in town, Dominick's and Jewel, not only had the same price, but it was more than anyone else's price in town.

而当他查看牛奶的价格时，他发现镇上的两家大超市Dominick's和Jewel不仅价格一样，而且比镇上其他人的价格还要高。

And it always seemed to change at the same time.

而且它似乎总是同时发生变化。

Because we followed the price of milk from about $3.09 up to $3.19 to $3.29.

因为我们跟踪牛奶的价格，从 3.09 美元一直到 3.19 美元到 3.29 美元。

I forget how many exact price bumps there were.

我忘记了具体有多少次价格上涨。

But we get to $3.69 And as far as we could tell, whenever one changed it seemed like the other one changed simultaneously.

但我们达到了 3.69 美元据我们所知，每当一个发生变化时，另一个似乎同时发生了变化。

At most grocery stores at other cities in the country, it was about a dollar cheaper.

在该国其他城市的大多数杂货店，价格便宜约一美元。

And in fact, farmers are getting the lowest price they've gotten in two decades.

事实上，农民得到的价格是二十年来最低的。

But at the same time, milk in Chicago was at its highest level historically.

但与此同时，芝加哥的牛奶产量达到了历史最高水平。

But here's the crazy thing, even though Andy Hail knows all that, that still doesn't prove that anything illegal is going on.

但疯狂的是，尽管安迪·黑尔知道这一切，但这仍然不能证明有任何非法行为正在发生。

It still doesn't mean that the two stores are sitting down in a back room somewhere, and hatching evil plans to drive up the prices of the dairy products that make the city run.

但这并不意味着这两家商店坐在某个密室里，策划着邪恶的计划来抬高维持城市运转的乳制品的价格。

After all, it's legal for stores to see what their competition is doing.

毕竟，商店了解竞争对手的行为是合法的。

It's legal for them to match prices that fit well, to stay competitive.

他们为了保持竞争力而匹配合适的价格是合法的。

We all benefit from that.

我们都从中受益。

It's legal for them to raise prices if they think they can get away with it.

Dominick's and Jewell say that that is all that is going on here.

多米尼克和朱厄尔说这就是这里发生的一切。

And Andy Hail does not have proof of anything else.

安迪·海尔没有其他任何证据。

The difficult thing with price fixing cases, the difficult with conspiracy cases is proving an agreement.

价格操纵案件和共谋案件的困难在于证明协议。

And usually it's very difficult because people don't admit to that.

通常这是非常困难的，因为人们不承认这一点。

Is the fix in or is it just our imagination.

是修复还是只是我们的想象。

Consider this case, our state legislature here in Illinois recently passed a bill.

考虑这种情况，我们伊利诺伊州的州立法机构最近通过了一项法案。

It was signed into law and it said that if you were a company that made liquor, any kind of liquor product, and you had some distributor in Illinois, who was doing what a liquor distributor does, which is buying from you and shipping to stores and bars and whoever, and if you decided at some point that you wanted to switch to a different distributor, somebody whose service was better, somebody more reliable, whatever, this law said that unless a special board ruled that you had a good reason to switch, and the reasons had to be really, really good, you were not allowed to switch.

它被签署成为法律，它规定，如果你是一家生产酒类产品的公司，并且你在伊利诺伊州有一些经销商，他们正在做酒类经销商所做的事情，即从你那里购买并运送到商店和酒吧以及任何人，并且如果你在某个时候决定你想要切换到不同的经销商，服务更好，更可靠的人，无论如何，这项法律规定，除非一个特别委员会裁定你有充分的理由进行转换，并且理由必须非常非常好，否则你就不能 allowed to switch.

Basically it was a law that stopped you from freely choosing who you wanted to do business with.

基本上，这是一项法律，阻止你自由选择与谁做生意。

And who was the main force behind this law?

而这项法律背后的主要推动者又是谁呢？

Cindi Canary, the head of the Illinois Campaign for Political Reform, will tell you the answer.

伊利诺伊州政治改革运动负责人辛迪·加纳利（Cindi Canary）将告诉你答案。

And be forewarned, it may sound suspicious.

预先警告一下，这可能听起来很可疑。

It was a man named Bill Wirtz.

这是一个名叫比尔·维尔茨的人。

And his job?

他的工作呢？

He owns the largest liquor distributorship in the state.

他拥有该州最大的酒类经销权。

What was the rationale that they had for this bill when it was debated?

在辩论该法案时，他们的理由是什么？

Well, what they lobbied on in the legislature was they took the tack that if manufacturers could go wherever they wanted, all of these liquor distributor jobs would go to foreigners.

好吧，他们在立法机关游说的是，他们采取的策略是，如果制造商可以去任何他们想去的地方，所有这些酒类分销商的工作都将流向外国人。

They would all go overseas.

他们都会去海外。

But wait a second-- Cindy Canary I know.

但是等一下——我知道辛迪·金丝雀。

It's crazy.

太疯狂了。

If they're distributing liquor in Illinois, then that would pretty much mean that these are trucks that are delivering alcohol--

如果他们在伊利诺伊州分发酒类，那么这几乎意味着这些卡车正在运送酒类——

I know.

我知道。

Ira Glass --in the state of Illinois.

艾拉·格拉斯——在伊利诺伊州。

Right.

正确的。

I know.

我知道。

But the big pitch was we were going to lose all these jobs.

但最重要的是我们将失去所有这些工作。

The Federal Trade Commission examined the bill and concluded that there was no evidence of any need for it.

联邦贸易委员会审查了该法案并得出结论，没有证据表明有任何必要。

And that in fact it would protect liquor distributors, like Bill Wirtz, from normal market forces.

事实上，它将保护像比尔·维尔茨这样的酒类经销商免受正常市场力量的影响。

And would probably increase alcohol prices besides.

此外，还可能会提高酒精价格。

Cindy Canary says that a year before the bill passed, legislators used to point to this bill as an example of the kinds of special interest proposals they were protecting us from every day.

辛迪·加纳利说，在该法案通过前一年，立法者常常以该法案为例，说明他们每天都在保护我们免受特殊利益提案的影响。

Proposals that could never actually get to be real laws.

这些提案实际上永远不可能成为真正的法律。

I was on a panel out in the suburbs with a number of other panelists, including some members of the Illinois legislature.

我和其他一些小组成员一起在郊区参加一个小组，其中包括伊利诺伊州立法机构的一些成员。

And one state senator said to me, he said, now you campaign finance people, you always make such a big deal about quid pro quo and graft.

一位州参议员对我说，他说，现在你们这些竞选财务的人，总是把交换条件和贪污问题看得那么严重。

You always say there's something there, he goes.

你总是说那里有东西，他就走了。

And I'll give you an example there's nothing there.

我给你举个例子，里面什么也没有。

This Wirtz bill, it'll never pass.

这个维尔茨法案永远不会通过。

If it passes, I'll take everyone in this room out to dinner.

如果通过的话，我会带这个房间里的每个人出去吃晚饭。

There were at least 70 people in the room.

房间里至少有70人。

We've yet to take him up on his invitation.

我们还没有接受他的邀请。

And that legislator, he voted against it, I presume.

我猜那位立法者投了反对票。

No, he voted for it.

不，他投了赞成票。

Ira Glass Wait.

艾拉·格拉斯等等。

What happened?

发生了什么？

I don't know.

我不知道。

This is Illinois.

这是伊利诺伊州。

And things can change with the wind blowing a different direction.

As you may have heard, the wind shifts directions a lot in these parts around Chicago.

您可能听说过，芝加哥周边这些地区的风向变化很大。

And some really beautiful reporting, in the Chicago Tribune , pointed out how Bill Wirtz may have helped the wind blow through numerous $10,000 and $15,000 contributions to key legislators and by hiring 28 lobbyists.

《芝加哥论坛报》上的一些非常精彩的报道指出，比尔·维尔茨 (Bill Wirtz) 如何通过向主要立法者捐款 10,000 美元和 15,000 美元以及雇用 28 名游说者来帮助推动风势。

28!

28！

Including a former governor, Jim Thompson.

其中包括前州长吉姆·汤普森。

But, is it fair to say that Wirtz just put the fix in, just bought this vote?

I think there's always a hazy area.

我认为总有一个模糊的区域。

You can never know for sure.

你永远无法确定。

If it's a for sure thing, then you get into the area of bribery.

如果这是肯定的事情，那么你就进入了贿赂领域。

If you say here's $10,000 for your campaign committee.

如果你说这是给你的竞选委员会的 10,000 美元。

I want you to vote this way.

我希望你这样投票。

That's bribery.

这就是贿赂。

If you say, here's $10,000, we just really like you and we'd like you to hear our position, that's just a campaign contribution.

如果你说，这是 10,000 美元，我们真的很喜欢你，我们希望你听到我们的立场，这只是竞选捐款。

So even in the case of a bill like this, where there doesn't seem to be any public merit to it at all, unless you happen to be an alcohol distributor, even in this case we can't say for sure that money bought this vote?

因此，即使在这样的法案中，它似乎根本没有任何公共价值，除非你碰巧是一名酒类经销商，即使在这种情况下，我们也不能肯定地说这张选票是金钱买来的？

There's no way to absolutely nail that down.

没有办法绝对确定这一点。

My friend, yes we suspect all kinds of conspiracies.

我的朋友，是的，我们怀疑各种阴谋。

And the problem is we almost never find out if we're right.

Well today, on our program, for once we find out.

今天，在我们的节目中，我们第一次找到答案。

We get the most definitive, satisfying proof possible.

Today we're devoting our program to one story, in which we get a look inside the back rooms of one international business.

今天，我们的节目主要讲述一个故事，在这个故事中，我们将深入了解一家国际企业的幕后室。

And we see the intricate workings, recorded on tape, tapes we have, of people putting the fix in.

我们看到了人们进行修复的复杂工作过程，记录在磁带上，我们拥有的磁带上。

This is also the story of an FBI informant, an informant who had so many different lies going, with so many different people, that eventually he got caught by his own lies.

Today's program, The "Fix Is In".

今天的节目“修复已完成”。

Stay with us.

留在我们身边。

Act One.

第一幕。

This is the story of the fix being in on a global scale.

这是在全球范围内进行修复的故事。

Five companies, from Japan, Korea, and the United States, including a company called ADM, Archer Daniels Midland, based in Decatur, Illinois.

来自日本、韩国和美国的五家公司，其中包括一家名为 ADM、Archer Daniels Midland、总部位于伊利诺伊州迪凯特的公司。

A company that is perhaps best known to Public Radio listeners for their underwriting spots on many of our programs, a company that donates aggressively to both political parties, a company whose chairman has been close to a number of presidents and senators, a company that has the fix in so thoroughly that you, I, all of us, are ADM consumers, and we don't even have any choice about it.

这家公司可能因承销我们许多节目而为公共广播电台听众所熟知，这家公司向两个政党积极捐款，这家公司的董事长与多位总统和参议员关系密切，这家公司的解决办法如此彻底，以至于你、我、我们所有人都是 ADM 的消费者，我们甚至对此别无选择。

I mean literally if you walk into an American kitchen and start taking away all the things that have ADM ingredients in them, pretty soon you're not going to be able to make dinner.

我的意思是，如果你走进美国厨房并开始拿走所有含有 ADM 成分的东西，很快你就无法做晚餐了。

Kurt Eichenwald covered the fix at ADM for The New York Times and then consolidated his reporting into a rather gripping account of what happened in ADM in a book called The Informant.

Kurt Eichenwald 为《纽约时报》报道了 ADM 的修复情况，然后将他的报道整合到一本名为《The Informant》的书中，对 ADM 中发生的事情进行了相当扣人心弦的描述。

They're in Kellogg's corn flakes, they're in waffles, they're in Gerber cereals, they're in popsicles, they're in pepperoni, they're in pudding.

它们存在于家乐氏玉米片中，存在于华夫饼中，存在于 Gerber 麦片中，存在于冰棒中，存在于意大利辣香肠中，存在于布丁中。

They sell an additive that goes into laundry detergent.

他们销售一种用于洗衣粉的添加剂。

There isn't a single laundry detergent that doesn't have citric acid in it.

没有一种洗衣粉不含柠檬酸。

The same product is found in every form of a soft drink that's available on the market.

市场上各种形式的软饮料中都含有相同的产品。

So if you have a Coke, you have a Pepsi, you're dealing with ADM for a couple of different ingredients.

因此，如果您有可口可乐，您有百事可乐，您就需要与 ADM 打交道以获取几种不同的成分。

This is the story of how ADM's stock price dropped by 50%, how the president of one of its largest divisions went to prison with the company's vice chairman, the son of its chairman, after the FBI caught ADM red-handed, on videotape, engaged in an international criminal conspiracy.

这是关于ADM的股价如何下跌50%的故事，以及在联邦调查局(FBI)通过录像带现场抓获ADM参与一项国际犯罪阴谋后，其最大部门之一的总裁如何与公司副董事长、董事长的儿子一起锒铛入狱的故事。

The FBI's key witness was an informant inside ADM, an informant who helped the FBI record what are probably the most remarkable videotapes ever made of an America corporation right in the middle of committing a crime.

FBI 的关键证人是 ADM 内部的一名线人，该线人帮助 FBI 录制了可能是有史以来最引人注目的美国公司犯罪过程中的录像带。

And the whole case dropped into the FBI's lap as a kind of fluke, because of a lie.

A lie that later turned out to be relatively small, compared with the lies that were later revealed, a lie told by a young executive, who wasn't meeting his production goals at ADM.

与后来被揭露的谎言相比，这个谎言后来被证明是相对较小的，这是一位年轻高管所说的谎言，他没有达到他在 ADM 的生产目标。

Mark Whitacre was a very young, whiz kid executive, who'd been hired by ADM to run its newest and most high tech division, the bioproducts division.

马克·惠特克 (Mark Whitacre) 是一位非常年轻的天才高管，他被 ADM 聘请来管理其最新、技术含量最高的部门——生物产品部门。

This division used biotechnology to make all sorts of food additives.

该部门利用生物技术生产各种食品添加剂。

And ADM's first big foray into the field was a product called lysine, an additive to hog and chicken feed, that helps fatten them up fast.

ADM 首次涉足这一领域是一种名为赖氨酸的产品，它是猪和鸡饲料的添加剂，有助于它们快速增肥。

Mark was 32, boyish looking and outgoing, but things were not going well.

马克 32 岁，看上去很孩子气，性格外向，但事情并不顺利。

The problem was that the lysine plant wasn't working.

问题是赖氨酸工厂无法运转。

And one day, Mark Whitacre came into the office, and he said, I just received a phone call at my home from one of our competitors and they have a saboteur in our plant.

有一天，马克·惠特克 (Mark Whitacre) 走进办公室，他说，我刚刚在家中接到我们一位竞争对手打来的电话，他们在我们的工厂里发现了一名破坏分子。

The man who called me said he would identify the saboteur if we paid him $10 million.

打电话给我的那个人说，如果我们付给他 1000 万美元，他就会查出破坏者的身份。

And what should we do?

我们应该做什么？

And ADM reacted to that, first by alerting the Central Intelligence Agency, which determined that they had no authority over this matter.

So the matter was turned over to the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

于是，此事被移交给联邦调查局。

And much, much later Mark Whitacre admitted that he had made this up actually.

很久很久以后，马克·惠特克承认这实际上是他编造的。

The whole story of the saboteur was fictitious.

破坏者的整个故事都是虚构的。

It's possible that Whitaker told the story to buy himself more time to get the plant running.

惠特克讲这个故事可能是为了给自己争取更多时间让工厂运转。

In any case, this one lie gets the FBI involved.

无论如何，这一谎言让联邦调查局介入。

And they start poking around at ADM.

他们开始研究 ADM。

And one night, November 5, 1992, a special agent named Brian Shepard drops in on Mark Whitacre at his house, to put a device on his phone which would tap his calls.

1992 年 11 月 5 日的一个晚上，一位名叫布莱恩·谢泼德 (Brian Shepard) 的特工来到马克·惠特克 (Mark Whitacre) 家中，在他的手机上安装了一个装置，可以窃听他的通话。

Whitaker was supposedly getting these phone calls from the competitor asking for money.

据推测，惠特克接到了竞争对手打来的电话，要求提供资金。

And so the FBI wanted to get that on tape.

因此，联邦调查局希望将其记录下来。

He hooked up the device.

他连接上了设备。

He was about to head out the door.

他正要往门外走。

Mark Whitacre's wife, who was aware that there were other things going on at ADM that her husband had not told the FBI, was pushing him to open up.

He wasn't going to.

他不打算这么做。

As Shepard literally was headed out to his car, she began to push past her husband to go outside and tell the agent what she knew.

当谢泼德正要走向他的车时，她开始推开丈夫，走到外面，告诉特工她所知道的事情。

And instead, Whitacre called out to agent Shepherd and said, do you have a moment?

相反，惠塔克向谢泼德探员喊道，你有时间吗？

So he stops the agent.

所以他阻止了特工。

And he tells the agent, what?

他告诉经纪人，什么？

Well, he and Shepherd go into Shepherd's car.

好吧，他和谢泼德上了谢泼德的车。

And they're sitting there.

他们就坐在那里。

And he, after dancing around the topic for some time, he tells Shepherd, I have been working with ADM to fix worldwide prices of lysine.

And it's not just lysine.

而且它不仅仅是赖氨酸。

We fix prices in a number of products.

我们确定许多产品的价格。

What Whitaker was telling Shepard that night was ADM is in a massive conspiracy with all of its competitors in this market to rip off its customers.

惠特克那天晚上告诉谢泼德的是，ADM 正与其在这个市场上的所有竞争对手进行一场大规模阴谋，目的是敲诈其客户。

At one level this is a completely foolhardy thing to say to a federal agent.

从某种程度上来说，对联邦特工说这样的话完全是鲁莽之举。

And if you asked Mark Whitacre today about why he did it, he'd tell you that he felt boxed in, that his wife would have told them anyway, or that the FBI would figure out that something was going on by listening to his phone calls.

But once he said it, the FBI asked them to prove it by recording some conversations that would confirm this rather incredible story.

So Mark agree, not thinking it would take much time.

Here he is.

他在这里。

Well, my goal was, and what I was hoping was, was that we would have that meeting that night.

嗯，我的目标是，我所希望的是，我们能在那天晚上举行会议。

I would have verified it in a tape, a couple days later.

几天后我会在磁带上验证它。

And that would have been it.

就这样了。

I would never dreamed it would have been almost three years of helping them.

I met with the FBI sometimes two nights a week.

有时我每周有两个晚上会见联邦调查局。

It ended up being a second job for me.

它最终成为我的第二份工作。

I mean it took tremendous amount of hours over the 33 months while I made literally hundreds of tapes.

我的意思是，在 33 个月的时间里，我制作了数百盘磁带，花费了大量的时间。

I think over 200 hours of tapes and hundreds of tapes themself.

I've spoken to a lot of people in law enforcement about Whitacre did,--

--and again and again, I have heard phrases like there has never been a cooperating witness like this guy.

——我一次又一次听到这样的话：从来没有像这个家伙这样合作的证人。

I've never seen anybody who was so skilled at doing it.

我从未见过有人能如此熟练地做到这一点。

They told me a few times I was the best, the best informant they've ever had, the FBI.

他们有几次告诉我，我是联邦调查局有史以来最好的线人。

They told me that a lot.

He was a cooperating witness on a scale like there has never been seen.

他是一位合作证人，其规模是前所未见的。

I mean this was an individual at the highest reaches of a Fortune 500 company, who was walking around, wired, all the time.

Ahh, how are you?

啊，你怎么样？

Mark Whitacre Fine, how are you?

马克·惠特克很好，你好吗？

Fine.

美好的。

And thank you very much for your telephone call.

非常感谢您的来电。

No problem.

没问题。

Kurt Eichenwald He was very good at drawing people out.

库尔特·艾兴瓦尔德（Kurt Eichenwald）他非常善于吸引人们的注意。

He was very good at making sure people were positioned in front of the cameras that were hidden away in a room somewhere.

他非常擅长确保人们位于隐藏在房间某处的摄像机前。

He was very good at getting them to repeat themselves.

In other words, if there was an earlier conversation that was missed on tape, so he got them to repeat everything when the tapes were rolling.

换句话说，如果磁带上漏掉了之前的对话，他就会让他们在磁带播放时重复所有内容。

How do you feel the meeting in Paris last week, the October 5 meeting?

您对上周在巴黎举行的10月5日会议有何感想？

How do you feel about it?

你对此有何感想？

I think-- how do I feel?

我想——我感觉如何？

I think I appreciate that meeting for the price.

我想我很欣赏这次会议的代价。

Because if there was no such meeting, I think we were about to decrease the price.

Bob Herndon was one of the two FBI agents who worked most closely with Mark Whitacre.

鲍勃·赫恩登是与马克·惠特克合作最密切的两名联邦调查局特工之一。

He says that one of Whitacre's most impressive moments was right at the beginning in the investigation, when the FBI had this problem that they did not know how to solve with the case.

They knew the five companies that make lysine were meeting.

他们知道生产赖氨酸的五家公司正在开会。

There were two from Korea, two from Japan, and ADM.

有两个来自韩国，两个来自日本，还有 ADM。

But the companies always met overseas, outside the reach of US law enforcement, in countries where the FBI was not allowed to set up secret cameras and videotape them.

So how to get them to meet in the US.

那么如何让他们在美国见面呢？

Here's agent Herndon.

这是赫恩登特工。

We would have these debriefing sessions about once a week.

我们大约每周举行一次汇报会。

In this particular one, in July of 1993,--

在 1993 年 7 月的这一特殊时刻，——

By the way, one sign that you have testified in a federal trial, you remember the dates of everything.

顺便说一句，你在联邦审判中作证的一个标志是，你记得所有事情的日期。

--in July of 1993, that night, myself and Brian Shepard, the other agent I worked with on this case, we're kind of hitting him hard about well Mark, what suggestions can you come up with, how could we get this next meeting between all of the competitors in the United States?

And it was Mark Whitacre himself who suggested golf.

马克·惠塔克本人建议打高尔夫。

And so they think about it.

所以他们会思考这个问题。

Hawaii has great golf courses.

夏威夷有很棒的高尔夫球场。

And so they tell Whitacre to dangle the prospect of a golf game on a stellar course in Hawaii to the Japanese competitors as a means of enticing them to come to the United States.

While we were listening to the call while the call was going on and Mark Whitacre asked Mr. Mimoto to think about coming to the United States for the next lysine meeting.

I think in our next meeting, since you guys hosted the Vancouver meeting, I think ADM should host the next meeting, don't you think?

我认为在我们的下一次会议中，既然你们主办了温哥华会议，我认为 ADM 应该主办下一次会议，您不觉得吗？

Yeah.

是的。

That's fine.

没关系。

Mark Whitacre And maybe we host it in Maui?

马克·惠特克也许我们在毛伊岛举办？

Maui?

毛伊岛？

Mark Whitacre The lysine-- have the lysine meeting, the group meeting like we had last time in Vancouver, the group lysine meeting, to have it in Maui, Hawaii.

Maui, Hawaii is still the United States.

夏威夷毛伊岛仍然是美国。

Now of course, Whitacre knows exactly what the man means.

当然，惠特克现在完全明白这个人的意思了。

What's wrong with still in the United States?

还在美国有什么问题吗？

He knows what it means.

他知道这意味着什么。

But rather than letting it drop, he says well, what does that mean, still in the United States, because he wants it on tape.

但他并没有让它消失，而是说，这意味着什么，仍然在美国，因为他希望它被录下来。

Yeah, but what's that mean?

是啊，但这是什么意思？

Still in the United States.

还在美国。

Still in the United States means the United States is very severe for the control of antitrust activity, no?

Well, there's your bingo moment.

好吧，宾果游戏时刻到了。

The man just stated, still in the United States means that the United States is very severe for the control of antitrust activities.

That statement there-- Ira Glass Agent Bob Herndon.

那句话是——艾拉·格拉斯探员鲍勃·赫恩登。

Mimoto's explanation about the laws of the United States became a very key statement in the prosecution of him and his company.

Mimoto对美国法律的解释成为起诉他和他的公司的一个非常关键的陈述。

That statement showed that the competitors knew what they were doing was violating the law of the United States.

And as soon as he gets that on tape, Whitacre moves on.

He goes back to trying to lure him.

他又回去试图引诱他。

His next big phrase is well, Hawaii, next to an 18-hole hole golf course.

He's not going to let it go.

他不会放过它。

Yeah, but you think in Hawaii next to an 18-hole golf course.

是的，但你想想在夏威夷的 18 洞高尔夫球场旁边。

Maui is very convenient for us.

毛伊岛对我们来说非常方便。

But I don't know.

但我不知道。

Or if your company does it, no problem.

或者如果你的公司这样做，没问题。

Maybe I will consult with legal department.

也许我会咨询法律部门。

Again, Mark Whitacre.

Mark Whitacre I was intense about it.

马克·惠塔克（Mark Whitacre）我对此很感兴趣。

If they wanted something, I was going to get it for them.

Would you psych up before one of these meetings?

在参加这些会议之前你会兴奋起来吗？

In other words, would you have a thing, you'd tell yourself, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this.

Here's the way I'm going to play this off.

这就是我要讲的方法。

Would you go through that in your head?

你会在心里想一想吗？

I would.

我会的。

I would mentally go over every detail, every detail.

And they would tell me three or four things they needed in particular.

And I didn't have to write them down.

我不必把它们写下来。

And I would make sure in each one of those meetings that I hit all three or four of those things, in every single meeting.

I was obsessed with it.

我对此很着迷。

The phone calls worked.

And they had the meeting in Hawaii, and other meetings as well.

For one get together in Atlanta, a tape recorder that was concealed inside Whitacre's briefcase wasn't working.

So he left it with FBI agents, who frantically tried to fix it.

And then he went to the meeting room, where the big five lysine producers were getting together, where a secret camera was already concealed inside a lamp.

So they arrive in this very nice room.

他们来到了这个非常漂亮的房间。

And it's the very opening of the meeting.

这是会议的开幕。

And they're just sort of, for lack of a better term, taking attendance.

And Whitacre says to the assembled group, now we have a couple of other people joining us, I think, don't we.

And one of the executives, yeah, we have a couple more.

Then one of the execs says, well is this two more from this Korean company?

And then come two more, right?

Two more at that point?

到时候还有两个？

Two more.

还有两个。

Mark Whitacre Two more.

马克·惠塔克还有两个。

Two.

二。

Because I've got plenty of space.

因为我有足够的空间。

Yeah.

是的。

Two more from Miwon.

还有两个来自美媛。

Kurt Eichenwald And one of the European executives is over fixing himself a drink at the banquet cart.

库尔特·艾兴瓦尔德 (Kurt Eichenwald) 一位欧洲高管正在宴会车上为自己准备一杯饮料。

And he says, no, no. It's two more from the Korean company and one from Tyson and one from ConAgra.

他说，不，不。另外两件来自韩国公司，一件来自泰森食品，另一件来自康尼格拉公司。

One from Tyson.

泰森的一张。

One from ConAgra.

一张来自康尼格拉。

One from--

一位来自——

[LAUGHTER] Kurt Eichenwald Now this is, I guess price fixing humor.

[笑声] Kurt Eichenwald 现在，我想这就是价格操纵的幽默。

Tyson and ConAgra are the customers among those who are being cheated.

泰森和康尼格拉就是被骗的客户。

And so one of the Japanese executives jumps in with his own joke.

于是，一位日本高管就插话了他自己的笑话。

He looks straight Whitacre and says--

Which in fact is exactly what Whitacre was.

Now as all this is going on, in the other room the FBI at that moment has successfully fixed the briefcase recorder.

现在，当这一切发生时，联邦调查局当时已经成功修复了另一个房间里的公文包录音机。

And so they need to get it back to him.

So the conspirators are laughing about FBI, FTC.

There's a knock at the door.

And one of the Japanese executives looks up and says yes, FTC?

一位日本高管抬头说道，是的，联邦贸易委员会？

Yes?

是的？

FTC?

联邦贸易委员会？

Kurt Eichenwald And Whitacre walks over and opens the door.

库尔特·艾兴瓦尔德和惠塔克走过来打开门。

And no, it wasn't the FTC.

不，这不是联邦贸易委员会。

It was the FBI.

是联邦调查局。

Yeah.

是的。

Bob Herndon This was left out in the cafeteria.

鲍勃·赫恩登（Bob Herndon）这被留在自助餐厅里了。

OK.

好的。

Ira Glass At this point the agent, Bob Herndon, pretends he works for the hotel and says, I hope I have the right room.

艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 此时，经纪人鲍勃·赫恩登 (Bob Herndon) 假装自己在酒店工作，并说：“我希望我有合适的房间。”

This was left down in the cafeteria and hands Whitacre the briefcase with the secret recorder.

这被留在了自助餐厅，并把装有秘密录音机的公文包交给了惠塔克。

When they said that, did your heart just sink?

当他们这么说的时候，你的心是不是一下子沉了下去？

No, at that point I've already made tapes for well over two years at that point.

不，那时我已经制作磁带两年多了。

And I knew they were just joking.

我知道他们只是在开玩笑。

And they had 100% trust in me.

Did you imagine to yourself what would have happened if they would caught you in one of these meetings?

您是否想象过如果他们在其中一次会议中发现您会发生什么？

No. I just went in with the impression that I'm never going to get caught.

不，我只是带着我永远不会被抓住的印象进去了。

Never.

绝不。

I mean I was very trusted within those groups.

我的意思是我在这些团体中非常受信任。

I mean I was even being discussed to be the next president of the whole company.

我的意思是我什至被讨论成为整个公司的下一任总裁。

And I was so trusted within that company, and also among the Japanese and Korean companies, that there was just no way that I was even concern about it.

我在该公司内部以及日本和韩国公司中都受到如此信任，以至于我根本不会对此感到担心。

Did you have a plan for what you would say if in fact somebody noticed the wire on?

如果确实有人注意到电线已接通，您是否有计划要说什么？

Well, I really didn't a plan.

嗯，我确实没有计划。

I was just counting on not getting caught.

I told writer Kurt Eigenwald, who spent years getting to know Mark Whitacre, how surprised I was when Whitacre told me he never considered the possibility that he'd be caught.

我告诉作家库尔特·艾根瓦尔德（他花了数年时间认识马克·惠塔克），当惠塔克告诉我他从未考虑过自己被抓的可能性时，我感到多么惊讶。

I wasn't sure if he was telling me the truth.

I totally believe that.

我完全相信这一点。

Whitaker always believed that no one would ever question him.

惠特克始终相信没有人会质疑他。

He would sometimes come into the United States carrying cash in his suitcase that he did not declare, effectively committing a crime.

有时，他会在手提箱中携带未申报的现金进入美国，这实际上构成了犯罪。

Like thousands and thousands of dollars cash.

就像成千上万美元的现金一样。

Thousands and thousands of dollars in cash.

成千上万美元的现金。

And when asked, well what would you have done if you had been caught, he just looked at the person asking the question and blinked and said well, it never occurred to me they'd stop me.

当被问到，如果你被抓住你会怎么做时，他只是看着提问的人，眨了眨眼睛说，好吧，我从来没有想到他们会阻止我。

Why would they?

他们为什么会这么做？

I'm a respectable looking guy.

我是一个看起来令人尊敬的人。

I wear a suit.

我穿西装。

I am an executive.

我是一名行政人员。

Why would why would they ever stop me?

他们为什么要阻止我？

And that's kind of attitude-- he just always believes that he's got control of the situation.

这就是一种态度——他总是相信自己能够控制局势。

And in the end, that's also the trait that led him to become completely undone.

最终，这也是导致他彻底失败的特质。

It was also one of the traits that made him such a good witness.

这也是使他成为如此好的见证人的特质之一。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

Ira Glass On these tapes, the other men at the price fixing meetings also seem to have remarkable faith that they won't get caught.

艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）在这些录音带上，参与定价会议的其他人似乎也坚信自己不会被抓住。

What's striking is not how nervous they all seem, as they set up an international criminal conspiracy, but how at ease.

令人震惊的不是他们在策划国际犯罪阴谋时看上去有多紧张，而是他们表现得多么轻松。

When people come to deliver lunch, they do not even bother to hide the chart that they've made, dividing the world market among themselves.

If anything, they make world domination seem profoundly banal.

如果说有什么不同的话，那就是它们让统治世界显得极其平庸。

In a typical tape, the scene is a Marriott hotel conference in Irvine, California, half-eaten breakfast rolls on the table, hotel coffee cooling in the air conditioning, there's an easel, one of those big corporate presentation notepads.

在典型的录像带中，场景是加利福尼亚州欧文市的万豪酒店会议，桌上有吃掉一半的早餐卷，酒店的咖啡在空调中冷却，有一个画架，是那些大型企业演示记事本之一。

And, can't take over the world without, magic markers.

而且，如果没有魔法标记，就无法统治世界。

In the movies, this would happen somewhere in a hollowed out volcano on a remote Pacific island.

But fixing the world market turns out to involve dozens of picky little details.

但事实证明，修复世界市场涉及许多挑剔的小细节。

If you're going to raise the price, should you do it all at once or gradually?

如果要提高价格，应该一次性提高还是逐步提高？

How gradually?

怎样逐渐？

What should the prices be for bushels and car loads, for delivered and undelivered, for full or half orders.

蒲式耳和整车、已交付和未交付、全订单或半订单的价格应该是多少。

There is a surprising amount of long division, and fractions, and multiplication, with long pauses, as they work out the math.

Times 10 is 23, divided by 2, 11.5.

10 乘以 23，除以 2，即 11.5。

6% is 12.5.

6% 是 12.5。

It's sickening and a little thrilling to think that any bright fifth grader has the math skills necessary to fix a global market.

想到任何聪明的五年级学生都拥有解决全球市场所需的数学技能，这既令人恶心又有点令人兴奋。

If any young people listening to radio right now have ever asked the eternal question, when in real life will I ever use long division, now you know when.

如果现在听广播的年轻人曾经问过这个永恒的问题：在现实生活中我什么时候会使用长除法，现在你知道什么时候了。

There is one point in this conspiracy where these conspirators sit and they're ready to fix the Canadian market.

在这场阴谋中，有一个时刻，这些阴谋者已经准备好修复加拿大市场。

And they do so by flipping open the paper-- the newspaper-- checking the exchange rate for that day, running a quick calculation saying, OK, here's the price in Canada and moving on.

他们通过翻开报纸检查当天的汇率，快速计算说，好吧，这是加拿大的价格，然后继续前进。

And they literally fixed a $100 million market in two minutes.

他们实际上在两分钟内就确定了价值 1 亿美元的市场。

The only hard parts of running an international criminal conspiracy are kind of what you'd expect, they have trouble trusting each other.

And it's not clear how to verify that everyone is sticking by the agreement.

They talk a lot about that.

他们对此谈论了很多。

At one point somebody even suggests calling in auditors from an accounting firm.

有人甚至一度建议聘请会计师事务所的审计师。

And it's not clear how to divide all the profits.

而且目前还不清楚如何分配所有利润。

And this is a very interesting business problem, if they are essentially bypassing the workings of the free market, that is, if they're not going to be competing for customers anymore, if they're all going to have the same price, if the fix is really in, then they have to decide upfront how much of the world market in lysine each of the five companies will be allowed to have.

这是一个非常有趣的商业问题，如果他们基本上绕过了自由市场的运作，也就是说，如果他们不再争夺客户，如果他们都将拥有相同的价格，如果解决方案真的到位，那么他们必须预先决定这五家公司将被允许拥有多少赖氨酸的世界市场。

Kyoto wants two.

京都想要两个。

Man 1 Miwon, stay the same?

Man 1 Miwon，保持不变吗？

OK.

好的。

Man 2 Tell them they can't have anymore than the other big guys there.

You're two.

你们两个。

So it's six.

所以是六。

And there's are seven or eight left.

还剩下七八个。

Also, if you're no longer working in a real competitive market, it kind of destroys the normal ways that your sales force is going to work.

No longer will your salesmen be able to get business by for example offering a lower price to a good customer.

So what are they going to do instead?

那么他们会做什么呢？

Lose the sale, says an ADM executive.

一位 ADM 高管表示，“失去销售机会”。

Completely counterintuitive.

完全违反直觉。

And it's going to be very hard to explain to your sales team, since they will not know that the fix is in.

而且很难向您的销售团队解释，因为他们不知道修复已经完成。

It's tough to do.

很难做到。

If you lose the business, you're just going to have to be patient.

Somebody is going to get the order.

有人会收到订单。

I've written a lot about corporate crime over the years.

And I'll often give speeches--

我会经常发表演讲——

--and one of the things I used to say that I don't say anymore is the misconception of white collar crime is that it starts off with some top-level executive sitting down, pointing at an underling, and saying, let's go break the law.

——我曾经说过但现在不再说的一件事是，对白领犯罪的误解是，它始于一些高层管理人员坐下来，指着下属说，让我们去违法吧。

I said it's usually much more subtle than that.

我说过它通常比这更微妙。

Well, boy was I wrong.

好吧，孩子，我错了。

You look at these tapes and it is indisputable that that is exactly what was happening at ADM.

I want to be closer to you than I am to any customer.

They are not your friend.

他们不是你的朋友。

They are not my friend.

他们不是我的朋友。

We've got to have them.

我们必须拥有它们。

Thank God, we've got to have them.

感谢上帝，我们必须拥有它们。

But they are not my friends.

但他们不是我的朋友。

You're my friend.

你是我的朋友。

That's really how it was in that company.

那家公司的情况确实如此。

Again, FBI informant and former ADM executive, Mark Whitacre.

再次是 FBI 线人、前 ADM 主管马克·惠特克 (Mark Whitacre)。

The customer is our enemy and the competitor is our friend.

And I heard that hundreds of times.

这句话我听过数百次了。

That should be the slogan, not "Supermarket to the World."

Did you all ever talk about that slogan, supermarket to the world?

I would see them on Sunday on like Meet The Press.

我会在周日的“与媒体见面”节目中见到他们。

And ADM's ad would come on, "Supermarket to the World." And we're so customer focused.

ADM 的广告将是“走向世界的超市”。我们非常以客户为中心。

And we're so people focused.

我们非常以人为本。

And I'm thinking, well shoot, this whole week we've been fixing prices in order to rip off the consumers.

我在想，好吧，这一周我们一直在操纵价格，以欺骗消费者。

I mean we're not the supermarket to the world.

我的意思是我们不是世界的超市。

We were the super criminals of the world, is what we were.

我们是世界上的超级罪犯，我们就是这样。

The US Justice Department estimates that ADM made $80 million by fixing the price of lysine.

The biotech division, which has been in the red, turned into a huge profit center.

一直亏损的生物技术部门变成了巨大的利润中心。

Mark Whitacre claims that they went from $7 million a month in losses to $7 million in revenue.

Mark Whitacre 声称他们的收入从每月 700 万美元的损失变为 700 万美元。

This presumably nudged up the price of chickens and pork for you and me by a few pennies.

这可能使你我的鸡肉和猪肉价格上涨了几美分。

But for agricultural businesses, it a meant a lot more than that.

但对于农业企业来说，它的意义远不止于此。

During the secret investigation, one of the FBI agents on the case, a man named John Hoyt, visited his and his brother-in-law.

在秘密调查期间，负责此案的联邦调查局探员之一、名叫约翰·霍伊特的男子拜访了他和他的姐夫。

The brother-in-law just started his own feed business.

姐夫刚刚开始自己的饲料生意。

Kurt Eichenwald tells the story.

库尔特·艾兴瓦尔德讲述了这个故事。

As a farmer, he was always dependent on the banks and the weather and a lot of things beyond his control.

作为一名农民，他总是依赖银行、天气以及许多他无法控制的事情。

And he had decided to try and take control of his life.

他决定尝试掌控自己的生活。

And this agent is sitting there after dinner with his brother-in-law, and they're just you're looking up at the stars, and his brother-in-law starts spilling this story of how troubled his business is, how much difficulty he's having because lysine prices are going through the roof.

这位经纪人和他的姐夫吃完晚饭后坐在那儿，他们只是在仰望星空，然后他的姐夫开始讲述他的生意有多么困难，他因为赖氨酸价格飞涨而遇到了多大的困难。

And he doesn't know how he's going to keep the business going.

他也不知道如何让生意继续下去。

And the agent is listening to this, knowing not only that prices are not going to come down any time soon, they're going to go up further.

代理商正在倾听这一消息，知道价格不仅不会很快下降，而且还会进一步上涨。

And he can't say anything about it.

他对此无话可说。

Well, coming up after the break, what happens when the person who is lying to everyone so he can help the FBI, turns out to be lying to the FBI as well?

好吧，休息后，当那个为了帮助联邦调查局而对所有人撒谎的人，结果证明他也在向联邦调查局撒谎时，会发生什么？

Lying in a big, big way.

躺在很大很大的地方。

That's in a minute, from Public Radio International, when our program continues.

稍后，国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。

It's This American Life.

这就是美国生活。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Each week on our show of course we choose some theme, bring you stories on that theme.

当然，每周我们的节目都会选择一些主题，为您带来有关该主题的故事。

Today's show, "The Fix Is In".

今天的节目“修复已完成”。

And we're devoting most of our program today to one story that we originally ran on our show in the year 2000.

今天我们节目的大部分内容都集中在我们最初于 2000 年在节目中播出的一个故事。

We're rerunning it today because it was just made into a movie called The Informant , starring Matt Damon.

我们今天重播它，因为它刚刚被拍成电影《线人》，由马特·达蒙主演。

It's a story about an international criminal conspiracy and it involves a company called ADM, Archer Daniels Midland, and an FBI informant, who revealed the conspiracy, Mark Whitacre.

这是一个关于国际犯罪阴谋的故事，涉及一家名为 ADM 的公司阿彻·丹尼尔斯·米德兰 (Archer Daniels Midland) 和揭露这一阴谋的联邦调查局线人马克·惠特克 (Mark Whitacre)。

One of the most stressful things for any person to do is to lie, to maintain a secret.

对于任何人来说，最有压力的事情之一就是撒谎、保守秘密。

Mark Whitacre worked as a double agent in his own life for three years.

马克·惠特克在自己的生活中担任了三年的双重间谍。

And at times, his behavior got a little strange.

有时，他的行为变得有点奇怪。

For instance, he firmly believed up until the end that when it was revealed that he had been spying on his co-workers, including people who were running the company, the company would reward him by promoting him to president.

例如，他直到最后都坚信，当他监视同事、包括公司高管的行为被揭露时，公司会奖励他，将他提拔为总裁。

Or he would do things like trying to talk to an FBI agent about the case while they were in a public restroom, at great risk to himself.

或者，他会做一些事情，比如当联邦调查局特工在公共卫生间时，试图与他们谈论此案，这对自己来说是巨大的风险。

The executives who he was taping and spying on me were just outside the restroom.

他正在对我进行录音和监视的高管就在洗手间外面。

The truth is that Mark Whitacre had some, and I believe has some, psychological issues that drive a lot of what he did here.

事实是，马克·惠特克有一些，我相信也有一些心理问题，这些问题推动了他在这里所做的很多事情。

I mean this was a man who in the course of this investigation was literally coming apart.

我的意思是，这个人在调查过程中简直崩溃了。

This was a man who stopped sleeping.

这是一个不再睡觉的人。

Being in this situation, during the time I would not have said that my mental state was deteriorating.

在这种情况下，那段时间我不会说我的精神状态在恶化。

But I'm just hearing things that my wife tells me and other friends have told me since that time.

但我只是听到我妻子告诉我的事情以及其他朋友从那时起告诉我的事情。

Now it's been awhile, its been five years since 1995.

现在已经有一段时间了，距离 1995 年已经五年了。

But my wife's told me there are many times that I would be out in the driveway at two or three in the morning, blowing the driveway off with a gas blower, blowing the leaves off, and it would be raining.

但我妻子告诉我，很多时候，我会在凌晨两三点到车道上，用燃气鼓风机吹掉车道，吹掉树叶，然后就会下雨。

So you're standing out there in the middle of the night, and a leaf falls in the driveway.

你半夜站在外面，一片叶子落在车道上。

And you use the leaf blower and just knock it away?

你用吹叶机然后把它吹走吗？

Yeah.

是的。

I mean my wife and kids remember that frequently.

我的意思是我的妻子和孩子经常记得这一点。

And it would be raining.

而且会下雨。

I mean it would be raining.

我的意思是天会下雨。

I'd be blowing leaves as it rained.

下雨的时候我会吹落叶。

I became over compulsive as a result of all this stress.

由于所有这些压力，我变得过度强迫。

Over compulsive on certain things.

对某些事情有过度强迫的倾向。

And the driveway was one thing I became addicted to.

车道是我沉迷的一件事。

And my wife constantly said, you've got to get some sleep.

我的妻子经常说，你必须睡一会儿。

But what I felt like why lay there, if you can't sleep.

但我的感觉是，如果你睡不着，为什么还要躺在那里呢？

So I'd go up and do things.

所以我会上去做事。

I'd go over to the horse stable.

我会去马厩。

I'd be riding horses at 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning.

我会在凌晨 3:00 或 4:00 骑马。

Come over, sleep for an hour, take a shower, and go to work.

过来，睡一个小时，洗个澡，然后去上班。

And work until 6:00 or 7:00, meet the FBI in the evening, and come back and start the routine all over again.

工作到 6:00 或 7:00，晚上与 FBI 见面，然后回来重新开始日常工作。

But before this, were you especially close to any of these guys who you were working with?

但在此之前，您是否与这些与您一起工作的人特别亲近？

No. Not at all.

不，一点也不。

None of them.

没有一个。

I mean I was close with a lot of people within the company.

我的意思是我与公司内的很多人关系密切。

But not the ones that were the targets of this investigation.

但不是这次调查的目标。

Not at all.

一点也不。

What was it like for you, knowing that you were taping them and building a case against them.

当你知道自己正在对他们进行录音并针对他们立案时，你感觉如何？

And here they are.

他们就在这里。

And you're going out and playing golf with them.

你要出去和他们一起打高尔夫球。

What was that like for you?

对你来说那是什么样的？

It was nerve wracking.

这真是令人伤脑筋。

I mean there was just so much deception.

我的意思是，有太多的欺骗。

There was so much deception for so long.

这么长时间以来，有太多的欺骗。

I mean you're acting as their friend.

我的意思是你扮演他们的朋友。

In reality, you're taping them.

事实上，你正在录制它们。

I mean, your whole life is deception.

我的意思是，你的一生都是欺骗。

There were three distinct lives that Mark was leading.

马克过着三种不同的生活。

He was deceiving some people about the fact that he was cooperating with his competitors.

他欺骗了一些人，说他正在与竞争对手合作。

He was deceiving others about the fact that he was cooperating with the FBI.

他欺骗别人说他与联邦调查局合作。

And after three years of meeting several nights a week with the FBI, collaborating with them, it turned out that he was deceiving the FBI as well.

经过三年每周几个晚上与联邦调查局会面并与他们合作后，事实证明他也在欺骗联邦调查局。

During one lunch, over moo shu pork I believe, it all unraveled.

我相信，在一顿午餐期间，吃着木须猪肉，一切都解开了。

On the first week of August of '95, myself and Brian Shepard picked Mark Whitacre up at his house.

95 年 8 月的第一周，我和布莱恩·谢泼德 (Brian Shepard) 去马克·惠塔克 (Mark Whitacre) 家接他。

And we went to a Chinese restaurant.

然后我们去了一家中餐馆。

Just from the very beginning, after knowing Mark for two and a half years, it was pretty easy to see that something was on his mind.

从一开始，在认识马克两年半之后，就很容易看出他在想什么。

Umhum.

嗯。

Bob Herndon He wanted to tell us something.

鲍勃·赫恩登（Bob Herndon）他想告诉我们一些事情。

In fact, he started out the conversation by saying my attorney does not want me to tell you this, but I need to tell you something.

事实上，他在谈话开始时说我的律师不想让我告诉你这些，但我需要告诉你一些事情。

Well, right there I said, Mark, time out.

好吧，我就说，马克，暂停吧。

You're not going to tell us anything your attorney does not want you to tell us.

您不会告诉我们任何您的律师不希望您告诉我们的事情。

Reporter Kurt Eichenwald.

记者库尔特·艾兴瓦尔德。

Kurt Eichenwald But Whitacre can't stop himself.

库尔特·艾兴瓦尔德但惠塔克无法阻止自己。

And while they're at lunch, Whitacre finally begins to spill his story.

当他们吃午饭时，惠塔克终于开始讲述他的故事。

He starts talking about-- giving us examples.

他开始谈论——给我们举例。

He starts saying, is this a crime?

他开始说，这是犯罪吗？

For example, he starts talking about employees taking pens and pencils from the company.

例如，他开始谈论员工从公司拿走钢笔和铅笔的事情。

[LAUGHTER].

[笑声]。

Bob Herndon Yeah.

鲍勃·赫恩登是的。

And they tell him this is not a big deal, don't worry about it.

他们告诉他这没什么大不了的，不用担心。

And Whitacre says well, suppose an executive used a corporate airplane for personal use?

惠特克说得好，假设一位高管将公司飞机用于个人用途呢？

Well, the agents tell him there may be some tax implications.

嗯，代理人告诉他这可能会涉及一些税收问题。

But it's not really a major problem.

但这并不是什么大问题。

And Whitacre says well, let me give you one more.

惠塔克说，好吧，让我再给你一份。

OK.

好的。

Well, what if the activity involved was kickbacks to corporate executives?

那么，如果所涉及的活动是给企业高管的回扣怎么办？

At that point in time I said, Mark, what is it that you want to tell us?

当时我说，马克，你想告诉我们什么？

What is on your mind?

你在想什么？

And then after asking that question he says well, I need to tell you guys something.

问完这个问题后，他说得好，我需要告诉你们一些事情。

And he starts to tell us about his embezzlement of $500,000 from ADM.

他开始向我们讲述他从 ADM 挪用 50 万美元的事情。

What'd you say to him?

你对他说什么了？

Bob Herndon Why?

鲍勃·赫恩登为什么？

Why didn't you tell us before?

你为什么不早告诉我们？

What is wrong with you?

你怎么了？

What were you thinking?

你在想什么？

And is this it?

这是吗？

Is there anything else?

还有别的吗？

Are there any other skeletons in your closet?

你的衣柜里还有其他骷髅吗？

Did you take any more than just $500,000?

你拿的钱有没有超过 50 万美元？

Is this it?

是这个吗？

And he swore up and down that $500,000 was it.

他上下发誓，就是50万美元。

And that turned out not to be truthful over time.

但随着时间的推移，事实证明这并不真实。

No. It turned out that he embezzled over $9 million.

不，事实证明他贪污了超过900万美元。

Jim Griffin is a Deputy Assistant Attorney General at the Justice Department's antitrust division in Washington, DC.

吉姆·格里芬 (Jim Griffin) 是华盛顿特区司法部反垄断部门的副助理总检察长。

He was one of the lead prosecutors in the ADM case.

他是 ADM 案件的主要检察官之一。

And he remembers hearing the news about the embezzling.

他记得听到过有关贪污的消息。

I could hardly forget that.

我很难忘记这一点。

It was August 3, 1995.

那是 1995 年 8 月 3 日。

And it ranked right up there with one of the worst days of my professional career, yes.

是的，这是我职业生涯中最糟糕的日子之一。

At that point was your feeling that he could very seriously jeopardize the case?

当时您是否感觉他可能会严重危及此案？

It's not a happy day when you hear that the cooperating witness you anticipated relying on telling the story to a jury and describing the events leading up to and captured on tape, has so destroyed his credibility that he's probably useless as a witness and has engaged in criminal activity that you're going to have to investigate and prosecute.

当你听说你期待的合作证人依靠向陪审团讲述故事并描述导致事件发生并记录在磁带上的事件，已经严重破坏了他的可信度，以至于他作为证人可能毫无用处，并且参与了你必须调查和起诉的犯罪活动时，这不是一个快乐的日子。

One frightening possibility for the prosecution that none of those beautiful videotapes, unprecedented videotapes, of corporate officials conspiring to fix prices, all painstakingly shot over three years, that none of them would be usable in court because they wouldn't have a witness who would confirm what they were and who the people were and when they all happened.

对于检方来说，一个可怕的可能性是，那些漂亮的录像带，史无前例的企业官员密谋操纵价格的录像带，全部都是在三年内精心拍摄的，它们都无法在法庭上使用，因为它们没有证人来证实它们是什么、这些人是谁以及这一切发生的时间。

The Justice Department solved this by getting some of the foreign businessmen at the meetings to testify against ADM.

司法部通过让一些参加会议的外国商人出庭作证指控 ADM 来解决这个问题。

By concealing his embezzlement from the FBI for three years during the investigation, Mark Whitacre violated the terms of what it meant to be a cooperating witness.

马克·惠特克在调查期间向联邦调查局隐瞒自己的贪污行为三年，违反了合作证人的条款。

Not only would he be prosecuted for the $9.5 million, he would also be prosecuted for price fixing.

他不仅会因 950 万美元的赔偿金而被起诉，还会因操纵价格而被起诉。

In other words, the videotape said he had made so carefully would be used as evidence against him.

也就是说，他精心制作的录像带将会被用来作为对他不利的证据。

To this day, Mark Whitacre insists that it was common in ADM for executives to siphon off money, like he did, to themselves.

时至今日，马克·惠特克 (Mark Whitacre) 坚称，在 ADM 中，高管们像他一样向自己挪用资金的情况很常见。

That it was expected.

这是预料之中的。

That the only reason that ADM told the federal government about it was to punish him.

ADM向联邦政府通报此事的唯一原因是为了惩罚他。

Federal authorities and journalists, including Kurt Eichenwald, have investigated this claim and found no evidence that it is true.

联邦当局和包括库尔特·艾兴瓦尔德在内的记者对这一说法进行了调查，但没有发现任何证据证明其属实。

ADM, by the way, declined to comment about this, or Mark Whitacre, or price fixing on our program.

顺便说一句，ADM 拒绝对此发表评论，也拒绝评论 Mark Whitacre 或我们计划的定价问题。

Whitacre spiraled downward.

惠塔克螺旋式下降。

He revealed all sorts of damaging information about his case to reporters.

他向记者透露了有关他的案件的各种有害信息。

He claimed he was abducted by kidnappers.

他声称自己被绑匪绑架了。

He wrote fake letters and faxes to all sorts of people.

他给各种各样的人写假信和传真。

He tried to kill himself.

He undermined his own attorney, Jim Epstein.

他破坏了自己的律师吉姆·爱泼斯坦(Jim Epstein)。

At one point, Epstein flew to the Justice Department in Washington, DC.

有一次，爱泼斯坦飞往华盛顿特区的司法部。

The government had great evidence to convict Whitacre, if they decided to use it.

如果政府决定使用的话，他们有充足的证据可以对惠塔克定罪。

Epstein wanted to convince them to offer Whitacre a plea bargain deal, a guilty plea in exchange for a shorter sentence.

爱泼斯坦想说服他们向惠塔克提供一项认罪交易协议，以认罪换取更短的刑期。

Kurt Eichenwald.

库尔特·艾兴瓦尔德。

Epstein went to Washington and made what by all accounts was a stellar presentation, where he talked about-- rather than talking about Mark Whitacre, the person, he talked about Mark Whitacre, the symbol.

爱泼斯坦去了华盛顿，做了一场据说非常出色的演讲，他在演讲中谈论的不是马克·惠塔克这个人，而是马克·惠塔克这个象征。

Mark Whitacre as what this means for law enforcement.

马克·惠特克（Mark Whitacre）表示这对执法部门意味着什么。

Yes, Mark stole $9 million.

是的，马克偷了 900 万美元。

But he gave you people who were committing crimes, many, many multiples of that.

但他给了你犯罪的人，数量是很多很多倍。

And if what ends up happening here is you guys insist on having a very long sentence, then we will have a sentencing hearing.

如果最终发生的事情是你们坚持判处很长的刑期，那么我们将举行量刑听证会。

And I will lay out everything that has happened to Mark, good, bad, indifferent.

我会列出发生在马克身上的一切，好的，坏的，无关紧要的。

I will lay out how he has been out there by himself for two years.

我将讲述他两年来是如何独自一人度过的。

I will lay out how he had no training, how he had no support.

我将阐述他如何没有接受训练，如何没有支持。

And the statement he made that just rang throughout the room is-- and then all of my words will be picked up in newspapers all around the country, everyone will read it, and you will never, ever, get a phone call from somebody who might be a cooperating witness again.

他刚才在整个房间里发表的声明是——然后我所有的话都会出现在全国各地的报纸上，每个人都会读到，而你永远不会再接到可能是合作证人的人打来的电话。

And it's true.

这是真的。

I mean it was a true statement.

我的意思是这是一个真实的陈述。

And it was very powerful.

而且非常强大。

There was the possibility that Whitacre would end up with as little as three years.

惠塔克的刑期有可能只有三年。

Epstein was very happy about this.

爱泼斯坦对此非常高兴。

But when he presented it to Whitacre, Whitacre reacted to that by deciding if this person wants me to plead guilty, essentially he decided that Epstein must be part of the government conspiracy to get him.

但当他把它提交给惠塔克时，惠塔克对此做出了反应，决定这个人是否要我认罪，本质上他认为爱泼斯坦一定是政府抓捕他的阴谋的一部分。

Whitacre fired Epstein and got himself a new lawyer, somebody without much experience in these kind of cases.

惠塔克解雇了爱泼斯坦，并为自己找了一位新律师，但他在此类案件上没有太多经验。

In some sense, the last straw came for Whitaker when he accused the FBI agent who had contacted him in the first place, Brian Shepard, of ordering him to destroy evidence and denying him access to doctors and lawyers.

从某种意义上说，当惠特克指责最初联系他的联邦调查局特工布莱恩·谢泼德命令他销毁证据并拒绝他接触医生和律师时，压垮他的最后一根稻草就来了。

Serious charges, that he later admitted that he'd made up.

严重的指控，他后来承认是他捏造的。

But they did a lot of damage, mostly to himself.

Whitacre didn't know that behind the scenes, the people in the antitrust case, were trying to get things to work out for him.

惠塔克并不知道，在幕后，参与反垄断案件的人正试图为他解决问题。

Whitacre did have this thing of turning against people who were his allies.

惠塔克确实有与他的盟友为敌的倾向。

He turned against Jim Epstein, his first lawyer.

他转而反对他的第一位律师吉姆·爱泼斯坦。

He turned against the FBI that worked with him on the antitrust case.

他反对与他合作处理反垄断案件的联邦调查局。

And he turns around and goes after a beloved member of this team with a story that upends this man's career.

他转身追捕团队中一位心爱的成员，讲述了一个颠覆这个人职业生涯的故事。

They have to open up an investigation.

He has to end up with a lawyer.

He has a lawsuit he has to deal with.

At that point, Mark Whitacre had nobody in the government who could even in the slightest way care one whit about what happened to him.

那时，马克·惠特克政府中没有人能够哪怕是有哪怕一点点关心他身上发生的事情。

In the end, Whitaker was sentenced to 10 and 1/2 years.

最终，惠特克被判处10又1/2年徒刑。

The ADM executives convicted of price fixing only had to serve sentences of three years.

被判操纵价格罪的 ADM 高管只需服刑三年。

ADM paid a fine of $100 million, which was 10 times bigger than any previous antitrust fine.

ADM 支付了 1 亿美元的罚款，是之前任何反垄断罚款的 10 倍。

It was a landmark case.

这是一个具有里程碑意义的案例。

It changed how the antitrust division, and the entire Justice Department frankly, viewed business conduct.

坦率地说，它改变了反垄断部门以及整个司法部对商业行为的看法。

This is Jim Muchnick, one of the federal prosecutors in the case.

我是吉姆·穆奇尼克，此案的联邦检察官之一。

In the sense that when I started in the antitrust division in 1991, antitrust prosecutions were more white glove in orientation.

从某种意义上说，当我 1991 年开始从事反垄断部门工作时，反垄断起诉的方向更加白手套化。

For example, it was virtually unheard of to conduct search warrants, to use tape recorded evidence, to engage in confrontational interviewing, meaning that unannounced, drop-in interviews by agents and attorneys of suspected price fixers.

例如，执行搜查令、使用录音证据、进行对抗性访谈（即对涉嫌价格操纵者的代理人和律师进行未经事先通知的临时访谈）几乎是闻所未闻的。

It just didn't happen.

它只是没有发生。

It's interesting to think to what degree that change in law enforcement is due to Mark Whitacre.

有趣的是，思考执法方面的变化在多大程度上是马克·惠特克造成的。

I don't think any of the people still in the division would like to admit it, how much he's meant to antitrust enforcement.

我认为该部门的任何人都不愿意承认他对反垄断执法的重要性。

But if you're asking me, he was it.

He totally changed the antitrust enforcement policy.

他彻底改变了反垄断执法政策。

What a flawed vessel for doing good he turned out to be.

事实证明，他是一个多么有缺陷的行善容器。

Yes, he did.

是的，他做到了。

Ira Glass ADM didn't exactly lead the antitrust division to tackle more cases.

Ira Glass ADM 并没有领导反垄断部门处理更多案件。

It's still about 85 or 90 active cases each year.

每年仍有大约 85 或 90 起活跃案件。

But now half the cases are international ones, like ADM's.

但现在一半的病例是国际病例，比如 ADM 的病例。

The investigations are more aggressive.

To give you a sense of just how quickly the fines have grown, ADM was the largest fine ever back in 1995.

为了让您了解罚款增长的速度有多快，ADM 是 1995 年有史以来最大的罚款。

By 2000, it was only the fifth largest.

Antitrust prosecutions netted over $1 billion in fines in just those four years, half of that from just one case.

仅在这四年里，反垄断起诉就带来了超过 10 亿美元的罚款，其中一半来自于一起案件。

A half billion dollar penalty to Hoffman-La Roche for fixing prices in vitamins.

霍夫曼-拉罗氏公司因操纵维生素价格而被处以 5 亿美元的罚款。

Ever wonder why they're so expensive?

And to get at the question that we all wonder about when we hear about these kinds of cases, here's a little talk that I had with special agent Herndon.

为了解答我们在听到此类案件时都想知道的问题，以下是我与特工赫恩登的一些谈话。

Well, strictly speaking from what the evidence in the case showed us, it appears to me that this is more typical than we realize.

嗯，严格来说，从案件中的证据向我们展示的情况来看，在我看来，这比我们意识到的更典型。

Yeah.

是的。

Bob Herndon We saw how casual these business executives were in dealing with one another.

鲍勃·赫恩登（Bob Herndon）我们看到这些企业高管彼此打交道时是多么随意。

We used to joke at one point in the case that if you saw a group of middle-aged white males with gray hair getting together in a hotel room during the middle the day, no good can come from that.

我们曾经开玩笑说，如果你看到一群头发花白的中年白人男性在中午聚集在酒店房间里，那不会有什么好处。

So when you're in the grocery store, do you think about this stuff?

那么当你在杂货店时，你会想到这些东西吗？

I do now.

我现在就这么做了。

Kurt Eichenwald I didn't just look at the products in the supermarket with suspicion, I looked at everything that's on sale everywhere.

Kurt Eichenwald 我不仅仅怀疑超市里的产品，我还看了所有地方打折的东西。

Writer Kurt Eichenwald.

作家库尔特·艾兴瓦尔德。

Kurt Eichenwald It went through my head when I was driving.

库尔特·艾兴瓦尔德（Kurt Eichenwald）当我开车的时候，这个想法就闪过我的脑海。

It went through my head when I was going to sleep.

当我要睡觉的时候，它出现在我的脑海里。

It went through my head when I was walking through the grocery store.

当我走过杂货店时，这个想法就出现在我的脑海里。

It went through my head when I opened my refrigerator.

当我打开冰箱时，这个想法闪过我的脑海。

I used to look at the ingredients labels on the Hellman's Mayonnaise and see what the ingredients were from ADM.

我曾经查看 Hellman's 蛋黄酱上的成分标签，看看其中的成分来自 ADM。

There is no way to watch these tapes and to listen to these tapes and not wonder.

观看这些磁带、听这些磁带时，你不可能不感到好奇。

All of this an official agenda for the meeting?

[LAUGHTER].

[笑声]。

Kurt Eichenwald Am I right now being a victim of a criminal conspiracy?

Kurt Eichenwald 我现在是犯罪阴谋的受害者吗？

And to this day, I don't know the answer to that question.

直到今天，我还不知道这个问题的答案。

In light of how everything unfolded, one of the most intriguing questions about this entire case has to do that very first night that Whitacre spoke to an FBI agent in his car, admitting that he was part of a conspiracy and agreeing to help the FBI.

鉴于一切是如何展开的，整个案件中最有趣的问题之一就是惠塔克在车里与联邦调查局特工交谈的第一天晚上，承认他是阴谋的一部分，并同意帮助联邦调查局。

Whitacre says to this day that he only did that because of his wife's insistence and because of the possibility that he would be caught by the FBI for price fixing himself.

惠塔克至今表示，他这样做只是因为妻子的坚持，而且因为他可能会因为自己操纵价格而被联邦调查局抓获。

But maybe, just maybe, he agreed to cooperate with the FBI because he suddenly realized that they were snooping around and they might discover that he was embezzling.

但也许，只是也许，他同意与联邦调查局合作，是因为他突然意识到他们在四处窥探，他们可能会发现他贪污。

Kurt Eichenwald.

库尔特·艾兴瓦尔德。

Kurt Eichenwald If you think about it, he knew the entire saboteur story, the thing that had gotten the FBI there was a fake.

库尔特·艾兴瓦尔德（Kurt Eichenwald）如果你仔细想想，他知道整个破坏者的故事，让联邦调查局发现的东西是假的。

He knew he had made it up.

And that they weren't going to be able to find any evidence that this in fact was occurring.

他们将无法找到任何证据证明这确实发生了。

He knew that if anybody started scratching the surface of him, which would certainly be what would happen, since he had just lied to federal agents in telling the story, that it would not take very long that there was the potential they would start finding all of these embezzlements he had engaged in.

他知道，如果有人开始触及他的表面，这肯定会发生，因为他刚刚在讲述这个故事时对联邦特工撒了谎，用不了多久，他们就有可能开始发现他参与的所有这些贪污行为。

He's like, you're looking at the saboteur.

他就像，你正在看着破坏者。

Well, wait.

好吧，等等。

Look over here at price fixing.

看看这里的定价。

And the FBI looked over there.

FBI agent, Bob Herndon.

联邦调查局探员鲍勃·赫恩登。

Bob Herndon And I think my conclusion now is, in a ironic twist, that it was the embezzlement scheme that forced him to cooperate with the FBI and that led to all of the convictions in the price fixing investigation.

鲍勃·赫恩登（Bob Herndon）我认为我现在的结论是，讽刺的是，正是挪用公款计划迫使他与联邦调查局合作，并导致价格操纵调查中的所有定罪。

So it's something good that came out of something bad, really?

那么，坏事中必然有好事发生，真的吗？

Yeah.

是的。

Exactly.

确切地。

That's not unusual.

这并不罕见。

In my line of work, it often takes a crook to catch a crook.

在我的工作中，经常要以恶攻恶。

It's just that in this case, we thought we had the exception, that he was going to turn out to be doing the right thing for all of the right reasons.

只是在这种情况下，我们认为我们有例外，他会因为所有正确的原因而做正确的事情。

It's like the FBI, well we're going to say you're a hero for what you did right.

就像联邦调查局一样，我们会说你是英雄，因为你做了正确的事。

But you did right because you were so well at deceiving.

但你做得对，因为你很擅长欺骗。

But in the same way, we're going to smack you down and give you a 10 and 1/2 year sentence for what you did wrong.

但同样，我们也会对你进行严厉打击，并为你的错误行为判处 10 年又 1/2 年徒刑。

To me, they both come in the same package.

I mean I was only a good informant because of what I did well for them.

我的意思是，我之所以成为一名优秀的线人，只是因为我为他们做了很多好事。

A lot.

很多。

Mark Whitacre Yeah.

马克·惠特克是的。

Both.

两个都。

This is the package.

这是包裹。

In the end, one of the most surprising facts about this case is that it ever happened at all.

最后，关于此案最令人惊讶的事实之一是它确实发生过。

It was pure accident that the FBI stumbled upon it.

FBI 偶然发现它纯属偶然。

It was luck that they found a guy who was simultaneously well connected, skilled at gathering evidence, and willing to become a cooperating witness before any lawyer had a chance to tell him not to.

幸运的是，他们找到了一个人脉广泛，善于收集证据，并且愿意在任何律师有机会告诉他不要这样做之前成为合作证人的人。

Today, Mark Whitacre says that the only reason that he continued taping people after the first week or two is that he thought that if he didn't, the FBI would get enough evidence without him to throw him in prison, which agent Herndon admits today, isn't true.

今天，马克·惠特克说，他在头一两周后继续对人们进行录音的唯一原因是，他认为如果他不这样做，联邦调查局会在没有他的情况下获得足够的证据将他投入监狱，赫恩登特工今天承认，这不是真的。

The FBI's case would have probably have fallen apart without him.

如果没有他，联邦调查局的案件可能就会失败。

Mark Whitacre was simply the only person in a position to gather the evidence that we needed to prove what was going on.

马克·惠特克是唯一一个能够收集我们需要证明正在发生的事情的证据的人。

I asked Mark Whitacre about this during our interview at a minimum security federal prison in Edgefield, South Carolina.

我在南卡罗来纳州埃奇菲尔德一所最低安全级别的联邦监狱接受采访时向马克·惠特克询问了此事。

Knowing what I know now, I was only seven or eight years out of college at that point, and I didn't know anything about law enforcement at that stage.

据我现在所知，那时我才大学毕业七八年，当时我对执法一无所知。

Knowing what I know now, there is no way they would had hardly any evidence to do anything.

据我现在所知，他们不可能几乎没有任何证据可以采取任何行动。

And all I would have had to do is go to ADM and tell them what was going on.

我所要做的就是去 ADM 并告诉他们发生了什么事。

And ADM would have worked with me so much and put so much behind it, that there's no way they could have done anything.

ADM 会与我进行如此多的合作并付出如此多的努力，以至于他们不可能做任何事情。

There's no way.

没办法啊

I definitely regret my part of it because to me, my family's more important than solving the price fixing problems of the world.

我绝对对我所扮演的角色感到遗憾，因为对我来说，我的家庭比解决世界上的价格操纵问题更重要。

And therefore I wish I just would have left and been with my family instead being sent in here as a result of working on a big price fixing case.

因此，我希望我能离开并与我的家人在一起，而不是因为处理一个大型价格操纵案件而被送到这里。

You did good, by accident.

你做得很好，只是偶然。

Mark Whitacre Yeah, by accident.

马克·惠特克是的，纯属偶然。

Purely by accident, believe me.

纯粹是偶然，相信我。

And with that, the guards took Mark Whitacre away to dinner.

说完，警卫们带着马克·惠塔克去吃晚饭了。

He looks good by the way.

顺便说一句，他看起来不错。

He's tan, slim, runs every day.

他晒黑了，身材苗条，每天都跑步。

His wife and kids visit every weekend.

他的妻子和孩子每个周末都会来看望他。

Prison suits him.

监狱很适合他。

I didn't see Mark again for nine years.

我已经九年没有再见到马克了。

And then in 2009, just this week, I caught up with him at the premiere of The Informant , from when Matt Damon plays him.

然后在 2009 年，就在这周，我在《线人》的首映式上见到了他，当时马特·达蒙扮演了他。

I asked Mike if he remembered me and producer Alex Blumberg visiting him in prison in South Carolina?

我问迈克是否记得我和制片人亚历克斯·布隆伯格在南卡罗来纳州的监狱里探望过他？

And he said sure.

他说当然可以。

He said it was September 10, 2000, which I don't know if that's right or not.

他说是2000年9月10日，不知道对不对。

He says he likes the film.

他说他喜欢这部电影。

And people sitting near him heard him laughing all the way through.

坐在他旁边的人一直听到他在笑。

My guess is that a lot of what he did back in those days was a result of a bipolar disorder.

我的猜测是，他当时所做的很多事情都是躁郁症的结果。

He's on meds now.

他现在正在服药。

He told me all about them.

他告诉了我关于他们的一切。

I sure did a lot of crazy stuff back then, he told me.

“我当时确实做了很多疯狂的事情，”他告诉我。

I mean you're acting as their friend.

我的意思是你扮演他们的朋友。

In reality, you're taping them.

事实上，你正在录制它们。

And I mean your whole life is deception.

我的意思是你的一生都是欺骗。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Back next week with more stories of This American Life.

下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。

This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。

中文为机器翻译，仅供参考。