166: Nobody's Family Is Going to Change - This American Life

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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #166 | November 25, 2011 166: Nobody's Family Is Going to Change Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

00:00 00:00 文字记录分享此美国生活生活伙伴如何收听剧集推荐关于概述员工公告奖学金工作音乐在路上制作电台常见问题解答提交商品联系我们我们的其他节目商品关注我们生活伙伴订阅我们的时事通讯整集切换音频和文字记录同步文字记录 | 内容第 166 集 | 2011 年 11 月 25 日 166：没有人的家庭会改变注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。

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如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。

Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。

Prologue Ira Glass From WBEZ Chicago and Public Radio International, it's This American Life .

序言来自 WBEZ 芝加哥和国际公共广播电台的 Ira Glass，这就是美国生活。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

And I hold in my hands a children's book called Nobody's Family is Going to Change , published in the 1970s by the same writer who did Harriet the Spy , Louise Fitzhugh.

我手里拿着一本名为《没有人的家庭会改变》的儿童读物，由《间谍哈丽特》的同一位作家路易丝·菲茨休于 20 世纪 70 年代出版。

It is, I have to say, an oddly menacing title, Nobody's Family is Going to Change.

我不得不说，这是一个奇怪的威胁性标题，《没有人的家庭会改变》。

Various contributors to our show have joked that it's part of a series for kids, with The Little Princess Who Got Sick and Never Woke Up , Daddy Drinks Because You Cry , God Made the Pretty Girls Pretty Because He Loved Them More, and Sharing is for Sissies .

我们节目的多位撰稿人开玩笑说，这是儿童系列节目的一部分，其中包括《生病却从未醒来的小公主》、《爸爸因为你哭泣而喝酒》、《上帝让漂亮女孩变得漂亮是因为他更爱她们》以及《分享是为了胆小鬼》。

But in fact, it's a serious and really good and rather brave little book, Nobody's Family is Going to Change .

但事实上，这是一本严肃的、非常好的、相当勇敢的小书，《没有人的家庭会改变》。

There's a family, as you might expect, the Sheridans, with a mean, disapproving dad; a mom who tries to smooth things over; a son who wants to dance in a show but is told he can't by his father; a daughter Emma, who is accused of daydreaming too much.

正如你所料，有一个家庭，谢里登一家，有一个刻薄、不赞成的父亲。 a mom who tries to smooth things over;一个儿子想在表演中跳舞，但父亲告诉他不能；女儿艾玛，被指责做太多白日梦。

She wishes that her family could be different.

Over the course of the book, Emma tries to get her dad to change, to listen to them, to be kind.

在这本书中，艾玛试图让她的父亲改变，倾听他们的声音，变得友善。

She joins something called the Children's Army, which agitates for the notion that is a child's right to change his or her family.

她加入了一个名为“儿童军团”的组织，该组织倡导儿童有权改变家庭的观念。

And then, finally towards the end of the book, sitting at dinner, as her father and brother rehash the same fight that they always have, Emma realizes that her parents will never change.

然后，最后，在书的结尾，坐在晚餐时，当她的父亲和兄弟重提他们总是有的同样的争吵时，艾玛意识到她的父母永远不会改变。

Her dad will always be harsh, will never treat her or her brother like he cares about them, and that she can't change him and shouldn't try.

她的父亲总是很严厉，永远不会像关心他们一样对待她或她的兄弟，而且她无法改变他，也不应该尝试。

And the best she can do is change herself.

So she goes and tells her friends, who have trouble understanding it.

于是她去告诉她的朋友们，但他们却难以理解。

There's a scene.

有一个场景。

"What about my father?" asked Golden.

“那我父亲呢？”金问道。

"Your father," said Saunders, "is a lost cause.

He thinks boys are great, and he's never going to think you're anything because you're a girl."

他认为男孩很伟大，他永远不会因为你是女孩而认为你有什么了不起。”

"Well," says Golden, "I can't change that."

"No, but you could stop wanting him to change," said Saunders.

“不，但你可以不再希望他改变，”桑德斯说。

Emma felt like the top of her head would fly off.

艾玛感觉自己的头顶都要飞掉了。

Saunders got it, the whole thing.

"That's what I mean," said Emma loudly.

"That's just what I'm talking about.

We have to stop waiting around for them to love us."

我们必须停止等待他们来爱我们。”

Because it's the '70s, one of the kids suggested they form a consciousness-raising group.

因为现在是 70 年代，其中一个孩子建议他们成立一个意识提升小组。

The fact is, even those of us who are adults, who know better, who accept our parents and siblings as we hope that they accept us, even we hope, somehow, that maybe it'll change a little, this way or that.

事实是，即使我们这些成年人，知道得更清楚，接受我们的父母和兄弟姐妹，就像我们希望他们接受我们一样，甚至我们也希望，不知何故，也许情况会有所改变，这样或那样。

It's hard not to hope.

很难不抱希望。

And the question's on the table.

Is nobody's family going to change?

Today, three stories that explore whether that might be true.

今天，我们将通过三个故事来探讨这是否属实。

Act One, So a Jew, a Christian, and a Recording Crew Walk Into This Bar.

第一幕，一个犹太人、一个基督徒和一个录音人员走进这个酒吧。

In that act, a woman travels to Alaska, thinking that maybe her brother might change a little, as he hopes that she'll change a little, too.

在那一幕中，一位女士前往阿拉斯加，心想也许她的哥哥可能会改变一点，因为他希望她也能改变一点。

Act Two, Matching Outfits Not Included.

The story of two sisters, now in their 70s, who have preserved the same relationship they had as girls, for better or worse.

讲述了两姐妹的故事，她们现在已经 70 多岁了，无论好坏，她们都保持着少女时代的关系。

Act Three, The Artist Formerly Known as Dr. Sarkin.

第三幕，艺术家，原名萨金博士。

What happens when you want your dad to change, and he wants to change, but there is literally nothing that can be done to change him?

当你希望你的父亲改变，而他也想改变，但实际上没有什么可以改变他时，会发生什么？

Stay with us.

留在我们身边。

Act One.

第一幕。

Julia Pimsleur's brother, Marc, went through a dramatic change, years ago now.

朱莉娅·皮姆斯勒 (Julia Pimsleur) 的弟弟马克 (Marc) 几年前经历了巨大的变化。

And I think it's not exaggerating to say that she wanted him to change back, at least a little, back to the way he was when they were young.

我认为毫不夸张地说，她希望他变回，至少一点点，变回他们年轻时的样子。

And so she set out on a little mission to see him and talk and get his side of things.

于是她开始执行一项小任务，去见他，谈谈并了解他的观点。

And experiment to see if anybody would change.

Marc and I were very close when we were small.

We traveled a lot, so we really only had each other for many months at a time.

我们经常旅行，所以我们一次只能在一起几个月。

We went to Ghana and we went to Switzerland, we went to Germany, sometimes for many months at a time when my dad was teaching.

我们去了加纳、瑞士、德国，有时我父亲在教书时会待上好几个月。

So my earliest memories are just of this little family unit-- my dad, my mother, my brother, and me.

所以我最早的记忆就是这个小家庭——我的爸爸、我的妈妈、我的兄弟和我。

Julia and I were always together.

She and I, we had each other.

We'd play and talk and stuff.

I don't even remember fighting at all until the year my dad died.

我什至不记得打架的事，直到我父亲去世那年。

Then we moved to New York.

That year was when everything changed for all of us.

那一年我们所有人的一切都发生了变化。

We just became very isolated into our separate worlds at that point.

那时我们就变得非常孤立于我们各自的世界。

My brother and I no longer shared a room from that point on.

从那时起，我和弟弟就不再共用一个房间了。

And I don't think we were much of a family unit ever again after that.

我认为从那以后我们就不再是一个家庭了。

Somehow, the three of us couldn't make it a family unit again.

不知何故，我们三个人再也不能成为一家人了。

I would like to talk with Marc about my father, but it's too late now because he has decided that everything that came before he was born again doesn't really matter.

我想和马克谈谈我的父亲，但现在已经太晚了，因为他已经决定，在他重生之前发生的一切并不重要。

I was at home and I was in one of my states where I was just totally depressed and confused.

我当时在家，处于一种完全沮丧和困惑的状态。

So I opened the Bible.

于是我打开了圣经。

And I don't remember what the scripture was.

It was something like, why are you stressed out?

Today is a day of joy.

今天是欢乐的一天。

I read that and all of a sudden, I realized God loved me, right there.

我读到这篇文章后，突然间，我意识到上帝就在那里爱我。

And it just hit me like an atom bomb.

I just felt it so powerfully.

I was like, "God loves me." And it just went like, [BOMB SOUND] inside.

And it just kept going on--

I guess, starting chronologically, my brother went to UC Berkeley and dropped out and became a born-again Christian and moved to a small island in Alaska to join a separatist community.

我想，从时间顺序开始，我哥哥去了加州大学伯克利分校，然后退学，成为一名重生的基督徒，并搬到阿拉斯加的一个小岛加入一个分离主义社区。

I mean, I was like, on fire, physically.

I mean, in a good way.

我的意思是，以一种好的方式。

it was like this, just blinding light, the whole thing.

整个事情就是这样，只有令人眼花缭乱的光芒。

There was no way I could dispute that something was happening.

我无法否认正在发生的事情。

Something big was happening.

And--

还有——

He called home and said that he had moved to a place called The Farm.

他打电话回家说他搬到了一个叫农场的地方。

And we asked where that was, and he said it was on a small island near Juneau and that he was living with 75 people in a self-sufficient farming community, and they considered themselves born-again Christians.

我们问那是哪里，他说那是在朱诺附近的一个小岛上，他和 75 个人住在一个自给自足的农业社区里，他们认为自己是重生的基督徒。

--I went outside and I was like, I felt like a newborn baby.

——我走到外面，感觉自己就像一个新生婴儿。

And I looked up at the sky and it was just getting to be evening and I could see the stars and I was like, wow.

我抬头仰望天空，天色已晚，我可以看到星星，我心想，哇。

It was like I was seeing everything for the first time.

就好像我第一次看到一切。

And--

还有——

At first, when he joined The Farm, it almost made us closer because he had been out of the house for several years.

起初，当他加入农场时，我们几乎变得更加亲近，因为他已经离开家好几年了。

I spent my last years of high school with him away.

我在他身边度过了高中的最后几年。

So we didn't talk then and he was traveling a lot.

所以我们当时没有说话，而且他经常出差。

And then he was at Berkeley and I didn't hear from him much.

然后他去了伯克利，我就没有收到太多他的消息了。

And then, when he came home one year, it was when he had started to have these religious experiences and he confided in me.

然后，当他有一年回家时，他开始有了这些宗教体验，并向我吐露心声。

He didn't tell my mother because he knew she would be very freaked out, and he told me.

他没有告诉我妈妈，因为他知道她会非常害怕，但他告诉了我。

And so I remember, initially, feeling really close to him again and very special and happy that he had chose to confide in me.

所以我记得，最初，我再次感觉与他非常亲近，并且非常特别和高兴他选择向我吐露心声。

And I kept his secret and we talked about it-- long talks about it, and I think he was very relieved that I didn't seem terrified at what he was telling me.

我保守了他的秘密，我们谈论了这件事——长时间的谈论，我认为他感到非常欣慰，因为我似乎没有对他告诉我的事情感到害怕。

But then, over the next few years, as he got more and more involved with The Farm, I felt like he was part of their world and not part of our world.

但在接下来的几年里，随着他越来越多地参与农场，我觉得他是他们世界的一部分，而不是我们世界的一部分。

And his language changed and he was talking about Jesus all the time in terms that didn't make any sense to us.

他的语言发生了变化，他一直在用我们没有任何意义的术语谈论耶稣。

And then about five years ago, he came to visit me in France where I was living with my girlfriend.

大约五年前，他来法国看望我，我和女朋友住在那里。

And I was very happy and in love and actually, very excited to share that with him and show him this wonderful life I had now.

我很高兴，很爱他，实际上，很兴奋能与他分享这一点，并向他展示我现在的美好生活。

And he was incredibly judgmental and said, well, the Bible does not abide by people of the same sex living with each other or loving each other.

他的判断力令人难以置信，他说，圣经不遵守同性生活或彼此相爱的规定。

And he didn't actually want to stay with us.

We went and stayed somewhere else and left him the apartment because that's the only way it would work.

我们去了别的地方，把公寓留给了他，因为这是唯一可行的办法。

So I think I cut him out of my life at that point, I just tried to forget that he was ever part of my life.

所以我想我当时就把他从我的生活中剔除了，我只是试图忘记他曾经是我生活的一部分。

So then he was gone again.

I mean, very simply, I missed my brother.

At some point, I realized I had a brother once, and I no longer do.

在某个时刻，我意识到我曾经有一个兄弟，但现在我不再有了。

I just started to feel like this is really sad and maybe it doesn't have to be like this.

我刚刚开始觉得这真的很悲伤，也许事情不必如此。

Now that he's born-again Christian, there will always be a huge divide between us.

既然他是重生的基督徒，我们之间总会有巨大的分歧。

But the question became, even with that divide, did I want to try to have some kind of relationship?

但问题是，即使存在这种分歧，我是否想尝试建立某种关系？

And I guess the answer was yes, or at least yes, I want to try, even though it might not work.

我想答案是肯定的，或者至少是的，我想尝试，即使它可能行不通。

I decided to go visit Marc in Alaska.

What happens is, you fly for a good 20, 25 minutes and you don't see anything, you're just in the hinterland of Alaska where nobody lives.

发生的情况是，你飞了整整 20、25 分钟，却什么也没看到，你只是在阿拉斯加的腹地，那里无人居住。

And then, all of a sudden, there's a few little cabins down below.

然后，突然间，下面出现了几间小木屋。

And you land on this airport that's basically just one landing strip.

当你降落在这个机场时，它基本上只是一个着陆跑道。

It's about as long as your average suburban mall parking lot.

它大约和普通郊区购物中心的停车场一样长。

And then you're there.

然后你就到了。

Oh, that so smooth!

噢，太顺利了！

Marc Pimsleur You look familiar.

Some time a long time ago.

Marc Pimsleur This other plane pulled up just two seconds ago and everybody gets out.

马克·皮姆斯勒（Marc Pimsleur）：另一架飞机两秒钟前才停了下来，所有人都下了飞机。

I'm like, "Hmm, I wonder."

For many years, I lied about what Marc was doing in Alaska.

多年来，我一直对马克在阿拉斯加的所作所为撒谎。

I used to say that he was a scientist or that he was studying fish farming.

我过去常说他是科学家，或者说他在研究养鱼。

I made up a whole bunch of weird things just because I didn't really understand why he was there myself.

我编造了一大堆奇怪的事情只是因为我自己也不明白他为什么在那里。

And I couldn't explain it to other people.

And whenever I did say he was part of a born-again Christian community, people would say, "Oh, it's cult." And I didn't know what to say, so I just didn't tell people for a long time.

每当我说他是重生基督教团体的一部分时，人们都会说，“哦，这是邪教。”而我也不知道该说什么，所以很长一段时间我都没有告诉别人。

And many people didn't even know I had a brother.

很多人甚至不知道我有一个兄弟。

I had a lot of friends I'd had for many years who would say, "Oh my God, you have a brother?

我有很多多年的朋友会说：“天哪，你有兄弟吗？

I had no idea." So I think what I'd come to try to find out in visiting Marc after all those years was how he'd gone from being my brother, who I went to Hebrew school with and watched him prepare for his bar mitzvah, and how he had made this incredible transformation.

我不知道。” So I think what I'd come to try to find out in visiting Marc after all those years was how he'd gone from being my brother, who I went to Hebrew school with and watched him prepare for his bar mitzvah, and how he had made this incredible transformation.

What is he doing there and how can I try to understand it better?

他在那里做什么？我怎样才能更好地理解它？

And would he still feel like my brother?

There we go.

我们开始吧。

Luke 18:30.

路加福音 18:30。

Julia Pimsleur When do you like to read the Bible?

Julia Pimsleur 你什么时候喜欢读圣经？

Before you go to sleep?

睡觉前？

Yeah.

是的。

That's what I usually do.

我通常就是这样做的。

Unfortunately, it doesn't last too long because I usually fall asleep within 10 seconds, but--

不幸的是，这种感觉不会持续太久，因为我通常会在 10 秒内睡着，但是——

Do you like to talk about the scripture and try to figure out what they meant by stuff?

你喜欢谈论经文并试图弄清楚它们的意思吗？

Is it also an intellectual activity for you?

Oh, no. Not really.

哦，不。并不真地。

Julia Pimsleur I was always jealous of Marc because he was very naturally talented.

朱莉娅·皮姆斯勒我一直嫉妒马克，因为他非常有天赋。

He was very creative and read a lot and was very intellectually engaged from an early age.

他非常有创造力，读书很多，从小就非常聪明。

Went to see old movies and that's just not interesting to him anymore.

去看老电影，但他已经不再感兴趣了。

Well, what would heaven be like?

Because I have no concept of that.

I have tried to imagine that because when Dad died, I definitely tried to think about where is he?

我试图想象，因为当爸爸去世时，我确实试图思考他在哪里？

And that's probably the last time I thought about there maybe being a God.

这可能是我最后一次思考上帝的存在。

Yeah, right.

是的，对。

Well, I really don't know what to answer.

Let's just see when we look up about heaven, paradise.

让我们看看当我们仰望天堂时，天堂。

Well, what I think is-- if I have anything to say, it's going to be based on what the Bible says anyway, because there isn't really any other way to know except what's written in the Bible.

Well, no. You think plenty of things that aren't exactly what's written in the Bible.

嗯，不。你认为很多事情并不完全是圣经中所写的。

Well, yeah, I know.

嗯，是的，我知道。

But where am I going to get an idea of what heaven is like?

但我该去哪里了解天堂是什么样子呢？

I mean, I've never been there.

I don't really know.

我真的不知道。

Yeah, but you can imagine.

Marc Pimsleur Yeah, but that's what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is, what I would have to say would hopefully be based on what the Bible has to say.

我想说的是，我所要说的希望是基于圣经所说的。

And if what I'm saying is my imagination, then it's kind of irrelevant anyway.

如果我说的是我的想象，那么无论如何它都是无关紧要的。

Does that make sense?

这有道理吗？

Yeah, but it feels more irrelevant to me if you just look up something and read it to me out of a book than if you tell me how you feel about it.

But how I feel about it is based on what's in the book and I'm not sure exactly-- I haven't memorized the book, so I need to just look it up and see what it says.

But it does seem like heaven is one of those things where-- I mean, what's it going to say?

但天堂似乎确实是其中之一——我的意思是，它会说什么？

It's going to say there is a heaven and you all get to go there.

它会说有一个天堂，你们都可以去那里。

But it's not going to tell you what it looks like.

但它不会告诉你它是什么样子。

It's not going to say--

它不会说——

Well, it doesn't tell you what it looks like.

I want to see if it says anything that might be relevant.

我想看看它是否说了一些可能相关的内容。

You can't look it up!

你查不出来啊！

Marc Pimsleur We're talking about heaven.

If we read scriptures about heaven, it might give us more things to talk about.

如果我们阅读有关天堂的经文，可能会给我们更多的话题可谈。

I know, but asking you what you think of heaven was not connected to looking at scripture because those are two different things.

我知道，但是问你对天堂的看法与查看圣经无关，因为这是两件不同的事情。

Well, for me, it's connected to looking up scripture.

嗯，对我来说，这与查找经文有关。

Fine, look it up!

好吧，你看一下！

Marc Pimsleur No, now I don't want to.

How would you feel, though, if you asked me something and I said, "I don't know.

但是，如果你问我一些事情而我说：“我不知道，你会有什么感觉。

I have to go look it up."

In The Feminist Guidebook .

In The Lesbian Love Handbook of Life.

But really, you've read it at some point, so something made an impression on you.

但实际上，你在某个时候读过它，所以有些东西给你留下了深刻的印象。

And then you made a decision about which part you think is what you believe.

然后你决定你认为哪一部分是你所相信的。

I mean, some people believe in rapture.

You don't believe in rapture.

No. Julia Pimsleur So all I'm saying is, no matter what it says in here, you must have your own opinion.

不。 Julia Pimsleur 所以我想说的是，无论这里说什么，你必须有自己的观点。

But I'm going to say exactly the same thing I just said five minutes ago.

但我要说的和五分钟前说的一模一样。

My opinion is based on this, and so that's why I want to look it up because it'll refresh my memory and give me some more ideas instead of just saying something off the top of my head about what little bit I remember.

Yeah, I guess I just think it's a personal thing.

是的，我想我只是认为这是个人的事情。

It is a personal thing, but that's fine.

That doesn't make any--

这并不意味着任何——

But do you have any personal zone left that's not the Bible?

但是除了圣经之外，你还有什么个人领域吗？

It's a question.

这是一个问题。

Marc Pimsleur No, I really do.

I really do.

我真的这么做。

I'm not sure why we're--

我不确定为什么我们——

I'm not objective.

我不客观。

Marc Pimsleur I know.

我认识马克·皮姆斯勒。

Well, you're losing your-- what's your job is called?

好吧，你正在失去你的——你的工作叫什么？

Documenting?

记录？

Marc Pimsleur Yes, totally.

You really are.

你确实是。

You're not working with me.

OK.

好的。

OK, let's look it up.

好的，我们查一下。

Marc Pimsleur OK.

马克·皮姆斯勒好的。

I really thought there's really nothing wrong with looking it up.

我真的以为查了一下确实没什么问题。

No, there's nothing wrong with looking it up.

OK, totally nothing wrong with this.

I'm going to look it up.

我要去查一下。

OK, heaven.

好吧，天堂。

We are now looking up heaven in the Bible.

Exactly, just to see what it has to say.

Not because I can't think for myself, but because [UNINTELLIGIBLE].

不是因为我无法独立思考，而是因为[无法理解]。

I think the most surprising thing to me was how much, even with his new views and how different he was, how the same he was also.

我认为最让我惊讶的是，尽管他有新的观点，他有多么不同，但他也有多少相同。

I mean, we went running together around The Farm and we picked blueberries and then I made blueberry pancakes for everybody on The Farm.

我的意思是，我们一起绕着农场跑步，采摘蓝莓，然后我为农场里的每个人做了蓝莓煎饼。

He played guitar and sang.

I got to listen to him.

我得听他的。

In a way, sometimes, I felt like he'd drawn this shade down over a window.

在某种程度上，有时，我觉得他把窗帘拉到了窗户上。

But the window was still there and the shade was Christianity.

但窗户仍然在那里，阴影是基督教。

But it was still him underneath.

He was still sarcastic and he had a sense of humor.

他仍然很讽刺，而且很有幽默感。

He was very caustic and self-deprecating.

In a way, he really stood out on The Farm because he was the only one like that.

在某种程度上，他在农场里确实很引人注目，因为他是唯一一个这样的人。

I think that's the main thing that I found, is that we could still tease each other and be close.

我认为这是我发现的最重要的事情，那就是我们仍然可以互相取笑并保持亲密关系。

I took a mean kick in the stomach for you.

Did you really?

你真的吗？

Julia Pimsleur Don't you remember that?

The bully who was twisting your nose?

No, I don't remember that.

Julia Pimsleur Because all the kids were so mean at the French school and you defended me.

朱莉娅·皮姆斯勒因为法国学校的所有孩子都很刻薄，而你却为我辩护。

Yeah, that's true.

是的，确实如此。

We were, definitely, in a place where we needed to stick together.

毫无疑问，我们正处在一个需要团结在一起的地方。

I remember beating up Jeanne for you.

I remember that too.

我也记得。

No, I do.

不，我愿意。

I remember.

我记得。

She was--

她是——

Yeah, well, she was about as big as me, too.

But I whooped her.

但我对她大喊大叫。

I think, for so many years, my mother and maybe, to a degree, even I, felt responsible, in a way, for him having gone off to The Farm.

我想，这么多年来，我的母亲，也许在某种程度上，甚至我，在某种程度上都对他去农场感到有责任。

And maybe that's why we didn't talk about it with other people and why I lied about it, is that, in some way, we felt it reflected badly on us as a family or somehow we had done something wrong, that he should want to trade in our family for this new spiritual family.

But I think the irony is that, only in researching what happened to him and really, finally confronting the fact that he's there and trying to understand it, I think we've now realized that there's a lot that we didn't have anything to do with that has to do with Marc and his life and his demons that he's fighting.

I mean, it was only in researching what had brought him to The Farm that I found out things about him that I had no idea, especially about the time that he was in college in Berkeley.

This is something I very rarely talk about because who wants to dredge up this kind of stuff?

这是我很少谈论的事情，因为谁愿意去挖掘这种东西呢？

But really, over about six months-- I didn't get the time period right.

但实际上，在大约六个月的时间里——我没有掌握正确的时间段。

It was more like a year.

这更像是一年。

That whole year, I just went totally downhill.

I remember taking a class in biology, your basic Bio 101, and I just couldn't hack it.

我记得上过一门生物学课，基本的 Bio 101，但我就是学不会。

I don't know what happened exactly-- I mean, I can tell you what happened.

我不知道到底发生了什么——我的意思是，我可以告诉你发生了什么。

I don't know why.

我不知道为什么。

Or I can't explain it.

或者我无法解释。

I'll tell you what happened, is I took the class and got the book.

我会告诉你发生了什么，我参加了课程并拿到了这本书。

It's like this.

是这样的。

And I opened the book and I just couldn't do it.

And that had never happened before, that I would set myself to something and not be able to do it.

以前从来没有发生过这样的情况：我让自己去做某件事却做不到。

It was like something up here was going wrong, like some wires were getting crossed or something.

就好像这里出了什么问题，就像有些电线交叉了之类的。

It was very scary, actually.

Very scary, I remember now.

I'd really lost my mind.

我真的失去了理智。

I mean, I can say it straight out.

I had lost it completely.

And the person I probably talked to the most during all this time about what was going on was Donna Austin.

在这段时间里，我可能与我谈论最多的人是唐娜·奥斯汀（Donna Austin）。

Oh, he would call and we'd spend two or three hours on the phone.

哦，他会打电话，我们会花两三个小时打电话。

That was the year that everything really fell apart for him emotionally, and mentally too, I think.

我认为，那一年对他来说，无论是情感上还是精神上，一切都彻底崩溃了。

Donna Austin is sort of my brother's surrogate mother on The Farm.

唐娜·奥斯汀（Donna Austin）可以说是农场里我哥哥的代孕母亲。

She is the first person he had contact with there and who is one of the people who convinced him to move there and to stay.

她是他在那里接触的第一个人，也是说服他搬到那里并留下来的人之一。

We had given him a Bible and he was reading his Bible.

我们给了他一本圣经，他正在读圣经。

And it was soon after that that he had this very unusual experience in the way that The Holy Ghost filled him and gave him the baptism of The Holy Ghost.

He had gotten involved with a Church of Christ group there, and they were telling that he wasn't saved and that because of this and that and his doctrines-- which he didn't even know about, anyway-- and because of his experiences, he just really wasn't saved.

So he was in conflict with those that were Christians that were guiding him.

所以他与那些指导他的基督徒发生了冲突。

And then he also just had thoughts that he was a complete failure and he couldn't make it with God and so he said, "God, you've got to meet me or I'm just not going to go on.

I don't know what I'm going to do with myself.

So one night, he went over to a park of some kind.

所以有一天晚上，他去了一个公园之类的地方。

There was like some hills right around Berkeley, just walking distance.

伯克利周围有一些小山，步行即可到达。

So I just walked up to the top of this hill.

And it was evening.

当时是晚上。

It was starting to get dark.

天开始黑了。

And I just knew that I was going to be there until I had my answer.

我只知道我会一直在那里，直到得到答案。

I knew I had to have the answer.

He had been on his knees, I think, most of the night, in the dark, at the top of some kind of a hill.

我想，他大部分时间都在黑暗中跪在一座小山顶上。

And I don't know what his thinking was, but he took some rocks and hit himself on the head, thinking, "I'm either going to knock some sense into myself or kill myself, one or the other." Hit himself with rocks.

And I don't know what his thinking was, but he took some rocks and hit himself on the head, thinking, "I'm either going to knock some sense into myself or kill myself, one or the other."用石头砸自己。

Basically, I threw myself off the edge of this cliff.

基本上，我把自己从悬崖边缘扔了下去。

Not a big cliff, but I was to the point where I was either going to die or find God trying.

虽然不是一个大悬崖，但我已经到了要么死掉，要么发现上帝在尝试的地步。

It was a real confused state of mind, but essentially, I did.

I threw myself off the edge and wound up at the bottom of this precipice-- minor, slight precipice.

I was a little bit worse for wear, but I wasn't in too bad shape.

And I just kept praying.

我只是不停地祈祷。

I said, "God, I don't know the answer.

我说：“天哪，我不知道答案。

You've got to show me." And I stayed there pretty much until, I don't know, it was like 3:00 in the morning, 4:00 in the morning.

你必须给我看看。”我几乎一直呆在那里，直到，我不知道，大概是凌晨 3:00、凌晨 4:00。

And at one point, I was just on my knees and I was just waiting.

有一次，我跪下来等待。

And I was just waiting, not expecting anything in particular.

But all of a sudden, something inside me just started welling up.

And it was kind of like a joyful feeling, but really joyful.

这有点像一种快乐的感觉，但真的很快乐。

Something was-- I don't know-- a kind of warm feeling, and I started speaking in tongues, just like that.

It just came out.

它刚刚出来。

And I was like, "Whoa, this must be speaking in tongues." And I just, once again, felt the presence of God and I was just so happy.

I felt the presence of the Holy Spirit in a way that was like the way we're sitting here, like you're here.

我感觉到圣灵的存在，就像我们坐在这里一样，就像你在这里一样。

And I knew what he was saying.

我知道他在说什么。

He was saying, "Don't worry.

他是在说：“别担心。

Everything's going to be all right."

一切都会好起来的。”

I was really shocked to hear how depressed and desperate he was in Berkeley.

I had never known that he was that bad off.

我从来不知道他的处境如此糟糕。

And I try not to spend too much time thinking about how it all could have turned out differently, but I think, after hearing about how in distress he was at Berkeley, I realized that The Farm saved his life in some ways.

我尽量不花太多时间思考这一切可能会有不同的结果，但我认为，在听说他在伯克利的困境后，我意识到农场在某些方面拯救了他的生命。

And I think some of the resentment I felt about him being there got replaced with a kind of gratitude that people took him in and took care of him at a time when he didn't or couldn't or wouldn't turn to us.

我认为，我对他在那里感到的一些怨恨已经被一种感激所取代，因为当他没有、不能或不会求助于我们时，人们接纳了他并照顾了他。

So I think that changed my attitude towards The Farm.

Sometimes, it seems like you worked out your issues through religion and I worked out my issues through therapy.

有时，似乎你通过宗教解决了你的问题，而我通过治疗解决了我的问题。

Right.

正确的。

Julia Pimsleur I guess one thing that I was thinking about that we talked about yesterday is I guess I felt it was important to me that you still have respect for my system of belief and that if I were to seek psychological counsel or have problems that I thought were due to psychological factors, whatever they may be, that I wasn't sure how you would see that.

朱莉娅·皮姆斯勒（Julia Pimsleur）我想我在考虑的一件事是我们昨天谈到的，我想我觉得对我来说重要的是你仍然尊重我的信仰体系，如果我寻求心理咨询或遇到我认为是由心理因素引起的问题，无论它们是什么，我不确定你会如何看待。

Like, if you see all work as the work of evil spirits trying to pull you down or if you think that people really can have psychological problems.

比如，如果你认为所有的工作都是邪灵的工作，试图让你失望，或者你认为人们真的可能有心理问题。

Well, there's a natural realm of just the things that God's created.

And within that natural realm, there are laws and so things are going to work for people, and working on dealing with your emotions and so on.

But the spiritual realm, it's really above all that.

But if I were really depressed, would you be thinking it was spirits or what would you think?

You're really stuck on this spirit thing.

你真的被这个精神上的东西困住了。

Yeah, because I don't get it.

是的，因为我不明白。

I don't get it.

我不明白。

I don't believe in them.

我不相信他们。

And I was wondering if you're-- OK, you know what else I'm thinking of?

我想知道你是否——好吧，你知道我还在想什么吗？

I'm thinking of the fact that I did feel like, in high school, like you always felt very superior and was looking down on what I was doing.

我在想这样一个事实：在高中时，我确实感觉你总是感觉非常优越，并且看不起我所做的事情。

And the irony of this whole conversation is that part of me is this big flashback to high school.

That you're like, "Well, you can do whatever you want down there--"

On that lower realm, yeah.

在那个下界，是的。

Julia Pimsleur --in the natural realm because we're up here in the spiritual realm.

朱莉娅·皮姆斯勒——在自然领域，因为我们在精神领域。

Yeah, right.

是的，对。

Well, that's always my hesitation about talking about any of this because I just don't know how to relate it to you without it being something that you're going to say, "This is weird," or "I can't deal with this," or "I can't understand this."

嗯，这一直是我在谈论这些事情时犹豫不决的原因，因为我只是不知道如何将它与你联系起来，而不会让你说，“这很奇怪”，或者“我无法处理这个”，或者“我无法理解这个”。

It's not that this is weird, it's the "I know better."

这并不是说这很奇怪，而是“我更了解”。

Yeah, OK.

是的，好的。

Well, unfortunately, it can come off extremely arrogant to say, well, this is the way, the truth, and the life.

不幸的是，如果说“这就是道路、真理和生活”，可能会显得极其傲慢。

And that's what Jesus said.

这就是耶稣所说的。

"I am the way, the truth, and the life." And you can't water it down and you can't make it acceptable.

“我就是道路、真理、生命。”你不能淡化它，也不能让它被接受。

And it divides people.

它分裂了人们。

But you see that I'm struggling to accept that your way is a valid way that's just different from my way.

但你看，我很难接受你的方式是一种有效的方式，只是与我的方式不同。

And I want to feel like you also feel that my way is a valid way.

我想让你也觉得我的方法是有效的。

It's just different from your way.

只是跟你的方式不一样而已。

I know you don't think that.

我知道你不这么认为。

Well, there just isn't room for that.

好吧，只是没有空间。

We can't really--

我们真的不能——

In our day-to-day relationship, sometimes, we can actually forget that he's born again and I'm a secular Jew.

在我们的日常关系中，有时，我们实际上会忘记他重生了，而我是一个世俗的犹太人。

But then we stumble on these land mines that really explode into conflict between us.

但后来我们偶然发现了这些地雷，它们真正引发了我们之间的冲突。

I would never be able to say, "Yes, I'm happy that you're having this lesbian lifestyle." I could never say that.

我永远无法说：“是的，我很高兴你有这种女同性恋的生活方式。”我永远不能这么说。

But that still doesn't change that you are my sister and I care about you just as much as I always have and still consider you my sister.

但这仍然没有改变你是我的妹妹，我一如既往地关心你，并且仍然认为你是我的妹妹。

Those two things are both true.

这两件事都是真的。

It's going to be a brick wall because there's no way.

这将是一堵砖墙，因为没有路。

There's no middle ground.

没有中间立场。

There just isn't.

只是没有。

Part of me didn't even buy that he felt that way because he had had plenty of friends who were gay and bisexual.

我的一部分甚至不相信他有这种感觉，因为他有很多同性恋和双性恋朋友。

And I'm not sure if he experimented or not in that vein, but he certainly was not someone who was homophobic or concerned about people's sexual orientation.

我不确定他是否进行过这种尝试，但他肯定不是一个恐同或关心人们性取向的人。

So the idea that he adopted this set of values that included homophobia when he wasn't homophobic himself was just very irritating.

因此，当他自己并不仇视同性恋时，他却采用了包括恐同在内的这套价值观，这一想法非常令人恼火。

It did feel like he was spouting something that had been fed to him.

确实感觉他正在喷吐出喂给他的东西。

Well, the Bible says God's put His laws in our hearts.

嗯，圣经说上帝把他的律法放在我们心里。

And maybe that's why, because what you're doing is against the law of God, as it's written in the Bible, flat out, and it's in my heart.

也许这就是原因，因为你所做的事违反了上帝的律法，正如《圣经》中所写的那样，而且它在我心里。

And so it goes against what's in my heart.

所以这与我内心的想法背道而驰。

And that's why, maybe it's something that I can feel.

这就是为什么，也许这是我能感觉到的。

When I came to this thing of accepting Christianity, it wasn't that I read the Bible and decided, OK, I agree that a man is made a man and a woman is made a woman and they're made that way by God and anything else is a perversion.

当我接受基督教这件事时，并不是我读了圣经并决定，好吧，我同意男人被创造为男人，女人被创造为女人，他们是上帝创造的，其他任何事情都是变态。

It's not like I read that and I read some of the other doctrines and said, "This is what I want.

这不像我读了那篇文章，也读了其他一些教义后说：“这就是我想要的。

I agree with this.

我同意这一点。

This is right." I accepted Jesus and what comes along with that is what's written in His word.

这是对的。”我接受了耶稣，随之而来的就是他的话中所写的内容。

I don't know what would happen if I was with a woman and we want to come visit you.

我不知道如果我和一个女人在一起并且我们想来看望你会发生什么。

I mean, I can't say it's right, it's fine, no big deal.

我的意思是，我不能说这是对的，没关系，没什么大不了的。

Because it is a big deal.

因为这是一件大事。

These are the things that no longer freak me out when I think about Marc, that he talks in tongues, that he has to check with God before he makes any move at all, that he believes that there's a destiny and that God has his all planned out and he just has to live according to what it is.

当我想到马克时，这些事情不再让我感到害怕，他说方言，他在采取任何行动之前必须先与上帝核实，他相信有一个命运，上帝已经计划好了他的一切，他只需要按照它的样子生活。

You would naturally think I'd be praying for their salvation and be praying for God to touch them the way he touched me and want them to be Christian.

你自然会认为我会为他们的救赎祈祷，并祈祷上帝以他感动我的方式感动他们，并希望他们成为基督徒。

And a few years ago, I was thinking, "Wouldn't it be neat if Julia was Christian and lived on The Farm and I had my sister here and my family here and my mom and wouldn't that be wonderful if we all agreed and they were on my side?"

几年前，我在想，“如果朱莉娅是基督徒，住在农场，我有我的妹妹在这里，我的家人在这里，还有我的妈妈，那不是很好吗？如果我们都同意并且他们站在我这边，那不是很棒吗？”

And then, at other times, I've thought, "What, really, do I have to offer?

然后，在其他时候，我会想，“我真的必须提供什么？

Julia's a wonderful person and has wonderful friends and has a life that she's, I believe, fulfilled with and does good things for people.

我相信朱莉娅是一个很棒的人，有很棒的朋友，她的生活很充实，她为人们做好事。

And what's the point of praying for them?

为他们祈祷有什么意义呢？

What does God have to offer them?

神要给他们什么？

Or not, what does God have to offer them, but I don't see the need there.

或者不是，上帝必须向他们提供什么，但我认为没有必要。

I don't see that they'd be any happier if they became Christian.

我不认为他们成为基督徒会更快乐。

And that's actually ironic, that all these years, he's taken us on our own terms and hasn't preached and we really didn't take him on his terms until very recently.

这实际上很讽刺，这些年来，他一直按照我们自己的方式对待我们，并且没有讲道，直到最近我们才真正按照他的方式对待他。

And I think one of the hardest things I had to do was accept that Marc would never be the brother I grew up with.

我认为我必须做的最困难的事情之一就是接受马克永远不会成为和我一起长大的兄弟。

He would never be the same as he was before.

他永远不会像以前一样了。

And I had to relearn to love him, in a way.

在某种程度上，我必须重新学会爱他。

He was a whole different person now.

他现在是一个完全不同的人了。

Julia Pimsleur and her brother, Marc Pimsleur.

朱莉娅·皮姆斯勒和她的兄弟马克·皮姆斯勒。

The audio recordings in our story are from a film documentary that she made about her visit to see Marc in Alaska called Brother Born Again.

我们故事中的录音来自一部关于她去阿拉斯加看望马克的电影纪录片，名为《重生的兄弟》。

It's available on the internet at artsengine.net.

它可以在互联网上的 artsengine.net 上找到。

In the eight years since we first put this story of the air, Marc has left Alaska to medical school in Texas.

自从我们第一次播出这个故事以来的八年里，马克已经离开阿拉斯加前往德克萨斯州的医学院。

He's now in his first year of residency.

他现在正处于住院医师实习的第一年。

He is still a Christian.

他仍然是一名基督徒。

He is still affiliated with The Farm.

他仍然隶属于农场。

In the eight years since Julia made her film, she's gotten married-- to a man, a rabbi, in fact.

朱莉娅拍摄电影后的八年里，她结婚了——嫁给了一个男人，事实上是一位拉比。

The have two kids.

他们有两个孩子。

[MUSIC--"IN THE LINES" BY PORTASTATIC]

[音乐--PORTASTATIC 的《IN THE LINES》]

Coming up, matching light blue easy chairs with matching teddy bears sitting on them and what else can happen if your relationship with your brothers and sisters does stay the same as it was when you were kids.

接下来，将浅蓝色的安乐椅与坐在上面的泰迪熊相搭配，如果你和兄弟姐妹的关系确实像小时候一样，还会发生什么。

That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International when our program continues.

一分钟后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。

It's This American Life .

这就是美国生活。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Each week on our program, of course, we choose some theme, bring you a variety of different kinds of stories on that theme.

当然，每周我们的节目都会选择一些主题，为您带来关于该主题的各种不同类型的故事。

Today's program, Nobody's Family is Going to Change.

今天的节目《没有人的家庭会改变》。

We've arrived at Act Two of our show.

我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。

Act Two, Matching Outfits Not Included.

第二幕，不包括配套服装。

In this act, we consider the question, what if your relationships with your loved ones, your brothers and sisters, never changes?

在这一行动中，我们考虑这样一个问题：如果你与亲人、兄弟姐妹的关系永远不会改变怎么办？

Hillary Frank has this story of two sisters-- grown women-- who go by the nicknames that they were given as little girls, Dusty and Honey.

希拉里·弗兰克（Hillary Frank）讲述了两姐妹（成年女性）的故事，她们的绰号是她们小时候起的绰号：达斯蒂（Dusty）和亲爱的（Honey）。

Back when Dusty and Honey were in their early 20s, not long after World War II, they were shopping in a store called Lerner's.

二战结束后不久，达斯蒂和哈尼 20 岁出头的时候，他们正在一家名为勒纳 (Lerner's) 的商店购物。

They were looking for clothes on opposite sides of a circular rack and found that they both picked the same outfit, a green corduroy two-piece sports suit.

他们在圆形架子的两侧寻找衣服，发现他们都选了同样的衣服，一套绿色灯芯绒两件式运动套装。

They left the store dressed identically and have been dressing alike ever since.

他们离开商店时穿着一模一样，从那以后就一直穿着相似。

Right now, I've got on what I call my fatigue outfits.

现在，我穿上了所谓的疲劳服。

I did my exercise.

我做了我的练习。

I've got a pair of brown shorts and a white-- where'd I get this?

我有一条棕色短裤和一条白色短裤——我从哪里买的？

Someone sent this-- oh, from Cape Cod.

有人从科德角寄来了这个——哦。

I'm wearing the same thing Dusty is-- the brown shorts and the Cape Cod T-shirt.

我穿着和达斯蒂一样的衣服——棕色短裤和科德角 T 恤。

People say, "Why do you--" Well, we have the same taste in clothes.

人们会说，“你为什么——”嗯，我们对衣服的品味是一样的。

So if I like the same thing she has, I want it.

所以如果我喜欢她拥有的东西，我就会想要它。

So we both wear it.

所以我们俩都穿。

And wearing the same clothes alike all the time, well, I can't say well, she's wearing my skirt or she's wearing my blouse because it'll be the same thing.

一直穿着同样的衣服，好吧，我不能说好，她穿着我的裙子或她穿着我的衬衫，因为它们都是一样的。

We're happy dressing alike.

我们很高兴穿着相似。

Dusty and Honey are sisters in their early 70s.

Dusty 和 Honey 是 70 岁出头的姐妹。

They've lived together all their lives, mostly in Westport, Connecticut.

他们一生都住在一起，大部分时间住在康涅狄格州的韦斯特波特。

They have the same wigs, the same eyeglasses, the same jewelry and purses.

他们有相同的假发、相同的眼镜、相同的珠宝和钱包。

But Dusty and Honey aren't twins.

但达斯蒂和哈妮不是双胞胎。

Dusty is three years older than Honey.

达斯蒂比哈妮大三岁。

Their bedroom has two twin beds, piled with matching stuffed animals.

他们的卧室有两张单人床，上面堆满了相配的毛绒动物。

Above each bed is a crucifix, and above those, centered in the middle, staring down, is a framed picture of Frank Sinatra.

每张床的上方都有一个耶稣受难像，在这些十字架上方，居中的位置，向下凝视着一张弗兰克·辛纳屈 (Frank Sinatra) 的镶框照片。

Not only do Dusty and Honey eat the same food, but they make sure that one never has a larger portion than the other.

达斯蒂和哈妮不仅吃同样的食物，而且他们确保一个人吃的食物永远不会比另一个人吃的多。

And one will only have a treat if the other is there to share it with her.

只有当另一个人在那里与她分享时，她才会享受到美食。

And if I'm out to the store, you know how sometime at a deli, they'll have samples, if she's not there with me to have a sample, I won't take it.

I have to have her with me.

我必须让她和我在一起。

I'll go get a [UNINTELLIGIBLE] there's a sample there, but I won't take it and not let her have it.

我会去拿一个[难以理解]那里有一个样品，但我不会接受也不让她拥有。

That sounds strange to some people, but that's the way we are and you just can't change us.

这对某些人来说听起来很奇怪，但我们就是这样，你无法改变我们。

But it works out fine.

但效果很好。

And as long as we like, we say we're not hurting anybody.

只要我们愿意，我们就不会伤害任何人。

Some people go, "Oh, it's--" We're not hurting anyone.

有些人会说，“哦，这是——”我们没有伤害任何人。

We're not breaking a commandment.

我们没有违反诫命。

And that's the main thing.

这是最重要的。

There's a kind of closeness between little girls who are best friends where it makes you feel secure and safe to think that there's someone who shares all the same likes and dislikes.

All you want is to do everything together.

你想要的只是一起做所有事情。

Dusty and Honey have somehow managed to carry that kind of friendship into adulthood.

达斯蒂和哈尼不知何故成功地将这种友谊延续到了成年。

They're like the girls who write "best friends forever" on the bathroom wall, except for them, the forever part is real.

她们就像那些在浴室墙上写下“永远最好的朋友”的女孩，除了她们，永远的部分是真实的。

It can feel sort of strange visiting them in their house.

去他们家拜访他们会让人感觉有点奇怪。

Two matching women sitting on matching easy chairs in their living room, completing each other's sentences.

两个相配的女人坐在客厅里相配的安乐椅上，互相补充对方的句子。

Even in their jobs they've been together.

即使在工作中，他们也一直在一起。

First a sweatshop, then an elderly home.

首先是血汗工厂，然后是老人之家。

For 30 years, they worked as housekeepers for a local priest.

30年来，他们为当地一位牧师担任管家。

Is it ever hard to feel like you're a separate person?

感觉自己是一个独立的人是否很难？

A separate person?

一个单独的人？

Hillary Frank Yeah, I mean, you do everything together, right?

希拉里·弗兰克是的，我的意思是，你们一起做所有事情，对吗？

And you dress the same and do you ever feel like you want to feel like just an individual?

你穿着同样的衣服，你是否曾经觉得自己想要成为一个独立的人？

A different person?

不同的人？

If I do that, I think I'm hurting her.

如果我这样做，我想我会伤害她。

It's like I don't love her anymore.

就好像我不再爱她了。

I don't want to do anything with her.

我不想和她做任何事。

I couldn't do that.

我做不到。

They say, "Why don't you dress differently than your sister?" No, then I'll hurt her.

他们说：“你为什么不穿得和你姐姐不同呢？”不，那我就伤害她。

I feel like I don't love her anymore and I couldn't do that to her.

我觉得我不再爱她了，我不能这样对她。

That would be like betraying her.

那样就等于背叛了她。

They know their relationship is unusual.

他们知道他们的关系不寻常。

But when I asked them why it turned out this way, they just say over and over that this is what was meant to be, and this is what makes them happy.

They learned to depend on each other as little girls growing up during The Depression, the youngest of six children, often going to bed hungry and cold.

Their father died when Honey was two and Dusty was five.

他们的父亲在哈尼两岁时去世，达斯蒂五岁时。

Dusty was always sort of fragile.

达斯蒂总是有点脆弱。

For a long time, whenever Dusty and Honey went out, Honey found herself doing everything for Dusty because Dusty was too shy to do things herself.

Dusty and Honey lived at home through their early 30s and cared for their ailing mother.

达斯蒂和哈妮三十出头就住在家里，照顾生病的母亲。

They watched their older siblings get married, one by one.

他们看着自己的哥哥姐姐一一结婚。

And every time they got married, there was the living room, and they had a door that went right out to the hallway.

每次他们结婚的时候，都会有客厅，有一扇门直接通向走廊。

And they used to go out there with their gowns.

他们过去常常穿着礼服出去。

So after they got married, my mother sealed that door up.

所以他们结婚后，我母亲就把那扇门封了起来。

I said, "Ma, you're trying to tell us we're never getting married and going out that door?" But she sealed that door up after Louise got married."

我说：“妈，你是想告诉我们，我们永远不会结婚并走出那扇门吗？”但路易丝结婚后她就把那扇门封了起来。”

Do you think your mother wanted you to get married?

你觉得你妈妈希望你结婚吗？

No. No, I can't say, like some mothers, when you go to get married, she never pressured us into that.

不，不，我不能说，像一些母亲一样，当你结婚时，她从来没有向我们施加压力。

Never, never.

从来没有，从来没有。

No. I guess she knew we were meant to stay with one another.

不，我猜她知道我们注定要在一起。

It was just something, I guess, that's in the books.

我想，这只是书本上的内容。

Nothing you could do about that.

你对此无能为力。

Do you think in some ways that this relationship is less complicated than married couples?

您认为在某些方面，这种关系没有夫妻关系那么复杂吗？

Yeah, I think so.

是的，我想是的。

I think so.

我想是的。

Because we understand one another and one doesn't try to hurt the other one or lie or cheat.

因为我们彼此理解，并且一个人不会试图伤害对方或撒谎或欺骗。

That's a pretty bleak view of marriage.

这是一种相当悲观的婚姻观。

It turns out that much of Dusty and Honey's information about marriage comes from soap operas.

事实证明，达斯蒂和哈妮的大部分婚姻信息都来自肥皂剧。

For as long as they can remember, they've been either listening to soaps on the radio or watching them on television.

从他们记事起，他们要么在收音机里听肥皂剧，要么在电视上看肥皂剧。

People say they're silly, but we enjoy them.

人们说他们很傻，但我们喜欢他们。

Like I say, thank God I don't live half of the lives they live.

就像我说的，感谢上帝，我的生活没有他们一半。

It's interesting because your lives seem to be very controlled and common.

这很有趣，因为你的生活似乎非常受控且平凡。

On the soap operas, they're very turbulent.

在肥皂剧中，他们非常动荡。

That's what I mean.

这就是我的意思。

You watch all that, thinking you're so quiet.

你看着这一切，觉得自己很安静。

Well, that's how we get our kicks out of life, watching does everyone know the facts of life when we see TV.

好吧，这就是我们如何从生活中获得乐趣，当我们看电视时，每个人都知道生活的真相。

Because my mother didn't tell us anything.

因为我妈妈什么也没告诉我们。

You bought a baby.

你买了一个婴儿。

You didn't have a baby, you bought a baby.

你没有生孩子，你买了一个孩子。

They describe themselves as young at heart, and I think that's a fair description.

他们形容自己内心年轻，我认为这是一个公平的描述。

Their nieces have helped them keep up with teenybopper culture, Britney Spears and 'N SYNC and all the others.

他们的侄女帮助他们跟上 teenybopper 文化、布兰妮·斯皮尔斯 (Britney Spears) 和 'N SYNC 以及其他所有人的步伐。

I like the way Ricky Martin moves.

我喜欢瑞奇·马丁的动作方式。

I wouldn't mind going out with him, we'd always say.

我们总是说，我不介意和他出去。

If I was only 20 years younger.

如果我年轻20岁就好了。

Dusty puts her hands up mambo style and does a little shake for me, a la Ricky Martin.

达斯蒂举起曼波式的双手，对我轻轻摇晃，就像瑞奇·马丁那样。

Every night, Dusty and Honey lay in their twin beds and talk before they fall asleep about what they're going to do the next day and what they'll wear and whether it'll be too cold for their Bermudas, like best friends on a sleepover that never ends.

Hillary Frank is the author of the novels Better Than Running at Night and I Can't Tell You.

希拉里·弗兰克是小说《比夜跑更好》和《我不能告诉你》的作者。

[MUSIC -- "LA VIDA LOCA" BY RICKY MARTIN]

[音乐——瑞奇·马丁的《LA VIDA LOCA》]

Act Three, The Artist Formerly Known as Doctor Sarkin.

第三幕，艺术家，原名萨金博士。

Sometime in 1999, I'm not exactly sure when, I got in the mail a drawing of a head with six eyeballs, bared teeth, and in a word balloon above it, seven pairs of words, each of them anagrams of the letters of my own name.

Ail Grass.

艾尔草.

Liars Sag.

骗子凹陷。

Sail Rags.

风帆破布。

Alas Rigs.

唉，钻机。

Over time, I received a stack of artwork half a foot high, including a guitar-shaped wooden cutting board that somebody simply drew on, fixed some stamps to, and threw in the mail, plus a full canvas painting, plus dozens of pages of stream-of-consciousness poetry, all the work of one Jon Sarkin.

He seemed sort of crazy, but not so crazy that he didn't provide perfectly organized press clippings about himself and his phone number and his web address.

We talked a few times on the phone.

我们在电话里聊过几次。

I thought of Jon Sarkin when the idea for this week's show came up because his family had gone through a change-- a dramatic change-- but they'd stayed together.

And now they all yearn for another change.

现在他们都渴望另一次改变。

Back in 1988, Jon was, as he puts it-- this is his phrase-- your classic, suburban, college-educated, professional, upper-middle-class Jew.

早在 1988 年，乔恩就如他所说——这是他的原话——典型的、郊区的、受过大学教育的、专业的、中上阶层的犹太人。

Chiropractor with workaholic tendencies.

具有工作狂倾向的脊椎按摩师。

And on the golf course one day, something went wrong in his brain, which led to a stroke, and surgery where they removed part of the cerebellum, which unhinged something in his life.

He wasn't able to do a normal job, and he started doing art, an obsessive, primitive sort of art that he did in an obsessive, primitive sort of way.

Jon Sarkin sees double, the left side of his body's weak, he walks with a cane, he's deaf in the left ear.

乔恩·萨金看到了重影，他的左侧身体虚弱，他拄着拐杖走路，他的左耳聋了。

But he's also lost a certain kind of everyday reasoning and thinking in a way that, as you might imagine, affects his family life.

但他也失去了某种日常推理和思考能力，正如你可能想象的那样，这影响了他的家庭生活。

For instance, how he gets along with his son, Curtis, age 12.

例如，他与 12 岁的儿子柯蒂斯 (Curtis) 相处的方式。

The thing that just happened yesterday.

昨天刚刚发生的事情。

We're going to the beach, and all the beach toys are in this big basket.

我们要去海滩，所有的海滩玩具都在这个大篮子里。

So I take the basket out and Curtis says, "Put the basket back in the garage and we'll wait for mom." I'm like, OK.

于是我把篮子拿出来，柯蒂斯说：“把篮子放回车库，我们会等妈妈。”我想，好吧。

So I take the basket and I dump all the beach toys out and I put the basket back in the garage, just like he asked me to.

所以我拿起篮子，把所有的沙滩玩具都倒了出来，然后把篮子放回车库，就像他要求我做的那样。

And he's like, "Dad, what are you doing?"

他就像，“爸爸，你在做什么？”

I said, "You asked me to put the basket back in the garage, Curtis."

我说：“你让我把篮子放回车库，柯蒂斯。”

I'm so literal.

Being highly literal gets you into trouble.

过于字面化会给你带来麻烦。

The world Jon's created for himself, a studio where he does his artwork in the seaside town of Gloucester, Massachusetts, is just a dirty little room with dingy junk everywhere.

The world his wife has created for their family is a pretty, suburban-style house that's so immaculate, it's like a critique of where he works.

他的妻子为他们的家庭创造的世界是一栋漂亮的郊区风格的房子，非常完美，这就像对他工作的地方的批评。

At 12, Curtis is the oldest child, Robin's almost 9, and Caroline just turned 6.

柯蒂斯 12 岁，是最大的孩子，罗宾快 9 岁了，卡罗琳刚刚满 6 岁。

After family dinner one night, Jon's wife, Kim, and I sat on the front steps under the trees for an interview.

一天晚上，家庭晚餐后，乔恩的妻子金和我坐在树下的前台阶上接受采访。

Curtis comes out and they tell me how there are so many funny family stories about their dad.

柯蒂斯出来了，他们告诉我有这么多关于他们父亲的有趣的家庭故事。

We could go way back.

我们可以回到过去。

How far back do you want to go?

你想回到多远的地方？

It's a story of how Jon insisted that they bring their leftover French fries home from Disney World in Florida so they could recycle them in the compost pile.

Or the story about Jon trying to help unpack the kitchen when they moved to the house, but doing it in a completely random way, the way a toddler might.

Or the story about Jon not noticing the Caroline got locked outside for a few cold minutes one winter.

或者是关于乔恩没有注意到卡罗琳号在一个冬天被锁在外面几分钟的故事。

Each story takes such a disturbing turn that at one point, Kim says, "Let's say some positive things about Dad." Take this story.

每个故事都有一个令人不安的转折，金姆有时会说：“让我们说一些关于爸爸的积极的事情吧。”就拿这个故事来说吧。

Tell about-- what was I going to say?

讲述——我要说什么？

When he first came home from the hospital, wasn't he laughing like crazy over Mickey Mouse cartoons?

当他第一次从医院回家时，他不是在看米老鼠卡通片时笑得很开心吗？

I had a moments where Curtis was sitting on the couch watching cartoons.

有一次，柯蒂斯坐在沙发上看动画片。

And he was about two.

Mickey Mouse.

米老鼠。

Kim Sarkin Mickey Mouse.

金·萨金·米老鼠。

And Jon was sitting on the floor and he was roaring with laughter over these Mickey Mouse cartoons.

乔恩坐在地板上，看着这些米老鼠卡通片，哈哈大笑。

I mean roaring.

And I thought to myself, "Oh, God.

我心想：“哦，上帝。

What have I brought home?" Because he was like a little kid.

我带什么回家了？”因为他就像个小孩子。

And living with Jon at that time was like living with a teenager, the way teenagers are explosive and irrational and moody.

那时和乔恩住在一起就像和一个青少年住在一起，青少年是暴躁的、非理性的、喜怒无常的。

He was all those things and I was the mom.

他就是所有这些，而我就是妈妈。

So that was a tough time, but he did continue to get better.

所以那是一段艰难的时期，但他确实在不断进步。

Do you feel like, in some ways, though, he still is like a teenager and you're still like--

但你是否觉得，在某些方面，他仍然像个青少年，而你仍然像——

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Ira Glass Curtis says he was seven or eight when he understood the extent to which his dad wasn't like the other dads.

And when he'd complain about his father, Robin, the middle child, would defend Dad.

当他抱怨父亲时，老二罗宾就会为父亲辩护。

And Robin would get mad at me or Curtis for seeming to be so impatient with Dad.

罗宾会因为我或柯蒂斯对爸爸如此不耐烦而生气。

And Curtis and I would sort of look at each other and roll our eyes and think, "Well, you'll know soon enough why we're so impatient." And now Robin is to the age where she's feeling impatient with Jon.

柯蒂斯和我会互相看着对方，翻白眼想：“好吧，你很快就会知道为什么我们这么不耐烦。”现在罗宾已经到了对乔恩感到不耐烦的年纪。

And Caroline is very defensive and runs to his defense.

卡罗琳的防守能力很强，会跑过去防守他。

And I know that within a couple of years, she'll be more aware of it.

我知道几年之内，她会更加意识到这一点。

At this point, Kim says, the six-year-old is just realizing that dad isn't "Wonder Dad." She gets mad when he scribbles a phone number on her drawings, or when he invited a TV crew to come and film in their house on her birthday.

金说，此时，这个六岁的孩子才意识到爸爸并不是“神奇爸爸”。当他在她的画上写下电话号码，或者当他邀请电视摄制组在她生日那天到他们家拍摄时，她会生气。

He just is not aware of other people's feelings in any normal sort of way.

他只是不以任何正常的方式意识到别人的感受。

When he does play with the kids, or draw with them, or just goof around with them, it's easy for him to go too far, get too loud.

Sometimes he comes out when kids are in the middle of a game and he starts making up rules for them to follow when they're in the middle of their game.

有时，当孩子们正在玩游戏时，他就会出来，并开始为他们制定规则，让他们在玩游戏时遵守。

Like he says, "Here's the rule.

就像他说的：“这是规则。

You have to go down the skateboard sitting down and you can't get up until you're to the bottom of the hill." And he just makes up rules and it doesn't even occur to him that the kids don't want him to be doing the rules.

You have to go down the skateboard sitting down and you can't get up until you're to the bottom of the hill."他只是制定规则，他甚至没有想到孩子们不希望他遵守规则。

He just thinks he's having fun and stuff.

他只是觉得他很开心。

And then he asks for a turn on the skateboard.

然后他要求转动滑板。

It doesn't occur to him that it's kids being with kids and that they don't really want an adult around.

He is a kid.

他是个孩子。

Kim Sarkin He is one of the kids.

金萨金（Kim Sarkin）他是孩子们之一。

Does he embarrass you?

他让你难堪吗？

What makes it all so tricky is that Jon Sarkin has better days and worse days.

It is possible for him to focus and act more normal and be a bit more clear-headed.

他可能会集中注意力，表现得更正常，头脑也更清醒一些。

But he says this gets exhausting after half an hour, and sometimes, even when he tries to do the right thing, he guesses wrong.

I should point out here that when Jon had his stroke, Kim and he had only been married for two years.

我应该在这里指出，当乔恩中风时，金和他才结婚两年。

Curtis was just a baby.

柯蒂斯还只是个婴儿。

Robin and Caroline hadn't been born.

罗宾和卡罗琳还没有出生。

And Kim decided not only to remain with him but to have more children.

She did it, she says because at first, the doctors predicted a full recovery.

她说，她这么做是因为一开始医生预测她会完全康复。

And then, every year, he did get better for a long time.

然后，在很长一段时间里，他每年都在进步。

And she loves kids, wanted more kids.

她喜欢孩子，想要更多的孩子。

And so I thought to myself, well, if Jon gets better, it'll be nice for us to have another baby because it's sort of a new hope.

And I didn't want the kids spaced too far apart.

我也不希望孩子们间隔太远。

And I thought if he doesn't get better, it would be easier on Curtis to have a sibling to share that with, I would think.

So I thought, we're just going to go for it.

所以我想，我们就继续努力吧。

And we decided to have Robin and his family was really happy about that because it sort of showed that I was committed and that we were committed and that we were still a family.

我们决定让罗宾和他的家人对此感到非常高兴，因为这表明我很忠诚，我们也很忠诚，而且我们仍然是一个家庭。

When you promise to stay together in sickness and in health, you do wonder, what if something happens, an accident, something disabling?

But you don't think, what if your partner just suddenly changes into someone else, someone very irritating?

但你有没有想过，如果你的伴侣突然变成了另外一个人，一个很烦人的人怎么办？

Kim says that she can still confide in Jon, lean on him in certain ways, but there are plenty of ways in which she can't, which he understands.

Were the two of you very close before all this happened?

I would have to say closer than most couples.

我不得不说比大多数情侣更亲密。

And do you think your kids yearn for you to change?

Or do they understand that you're not going to change?

Both.

两个都。

I still do.

我仍然这样做。

I still yearn for it to change, even though I know it's not going to.

我仍然渴望改变，尽管我知道这不会改变。

Curtis, is there a part of you where you feel like, well, he should know better?

柯蒂斯，你是否有一部分感觉，嗯，他应该更了解？

Yeah, I feel that a lot.

是的，我有很多这样的感觉。

But I know that he really can't help it and I just try very hard to remember that.

And I do feel, sometimes, that he should know better or he should think first, but I know he really can't help it.

It's very frustrating.

这非常令人沮丧。

No, I don't.

不，我不。

He's been acting this way for a long time and I don't think he'll change.

I have to say, it doesn't seem he's getting any better.

It seems like he's getting worse.

看来他的情况越来越糟糕了。

Does it?

是吗？

Curtis Sarkin Yeah.

柯蒂斯·萨金是的。

Like at Caroline's birthday, he just sat around and did nothing.

就像卡罗琳生日时一样，他只是坐着，什么也没做。

And then he went and took a nap.

然后他就去小睡了。

And he just sat around and did nothing.

而他只是坐着，什么也没做。

Didn't even join the party.

甚至没有入党。

And then, after we'd already done presents and practically anything, he says to me, "Curtis, what are we doing first, cake or presents?" And we'd already done presents and we were just about to start cake.

然后，当我们已经做好了礼物和几乎所有的事情之后，他对我说，“柯蒂斯，我们先做什么，蛋糕还是礼物？”我们已经做好了礼物，正要开始做蛋糕。

So it's hard.

所以这很难。

After the party, when everybody was cleaning up, Jon took the special bouquet of helium birthday balloons and was about to pop them.

聚会结束后，当每个人都在清理时，乔恩拿着一束特殊的氦生日气球，正准备将它们戳破。

He thought he was helping.

他以为他是在帮忙。

And what happens in the Sarkin family is what happens in any family.

发生在萨金家族的事情就是发生在任何家庭的事情。

It is hard for the rest of them not to think, despite themselves, "Well, doesn't he love us?

对于其他人来说，很难不去想，“好吧，他不爱我们吗？

Doesn't he love us enough to act differently?"

难道他还不够爱我们，以至于做出不同的行为吗？”

And that's where we get upset with him is, he should know that the helium balloons are important to me.

这就是我们对他感到不满的地方，他应该知道氦气球对我很重要。

He should know that that drawing I made is too important to draw on.

他应该知道我画的那幅画太重要了，不能拿来画。

He should know that stuff.

他应该知道那些事。

And he says, "No, I don't." And I say, "Well, I think that sometimes you use the stroke a little bit." And it is hard to distinguish when he's using it and when it's really a perceptual problem.

他说：“不，我不。”我说：“嗯，我认为有时你会稍微使用一下笔画。” And it is hard to distinguish when he's using it and when it's really a perceptual problem.

My wife is like, "Well, Jon, I think you're lazy because you use the stroke as an excuse.

And I can't tell if you're really just being lazy." And sometimes, she's right.

And I can't tell if you're really just being lazy."有时，她是对的。

Sometimes I am lazy.

有时我很懒。

Sometimes, I actually can't do it.

有时候，我其实做不到。

Just like I can't remember where the light switch is, even though I've turned the lights on a thousand times.

就像我不记得电灯开关在哪里，尽管我已经开灯一千次了。

And I tell her, "I really can't." And she says, "Yes you can." "No, I can't." "Yes, you can." "No, I can't." And I'm like, "Well, guess what.

我告诉她：“我真的不能。”她说：“是的，你可以。” “不，我不能。” “是的，你可以。” “不，我不能。”我说：“好吧，你猜怎么着。

I'm not going to do it because I know I can't, so end of conversation."

我不会这样做，因为我知道我做不到，所以谈话结束。”

"I want him to care more.

“我希望他更加关心。

I would think that no matter how bad your situation is, you've got these three marvelous children and a nice wife and a nice home.

And things aren't that bad for us.

事情对我们来说并没有那么糟糕。

And I know that life is really hard for Jon, but I would like it if we were more of an inspiration for him, to him.

That part, I can't let go of hoping will change.

那部分，我不能放弃希望会改变。

And so this is where they stand.

这就是他们的立场。

During my brief visit with the Sarkins, Jon was, everybody says, on his best behavior.

If anything, he tiptoed around, worried that he'd mess things up as everybody set the table or cleaned the kitchen.

如果有的话，他会踮起脚尖四处走动，担心当每个人都摆好桌子或打扫厨房时，他会把事情搞砸。

When Curtis's little sisters needed help fixing the TV, it was Curtis they came to, not their dad.

Interestingly, Kim says that some of the nicest times for her are when they visit with his family-- his mom, his brother, his sister.

有趣的是，金说，对她来说最美好的时光是当他们拜访他的家人时——他的妈妈、他的兄弟、他的妹妹。

Family roles are so powerful, something kicks in with Jon.

家庭角色是如此重要，乔恩身上发生了一些事情。

I love just sitting around and listening to him talking to his brother and his sister because the old Jon seems to come back.

But he's also exhausted after those trips because-- and it's not like he's deceiving them or anything.

但在这些旅行之后他也感到精疲力尽，因为——而且他并不是在欺骗他们或其他什么。

He longs to be the old Jon too, but he can only be for so long.

When we called the Sarkins this week, we found out that the family is still together.

本周，当我们给萨金斯一家打电话时，我们发现他们一家人还在一起。

He's still married.

他还结婚了。

The girls are teenagers.

女孩们已经是青少年了。

Curtis is a freshman in college.

柯蒂斯是一名大学新生。

And Jon continues to create art.

乔恩继续创作艺术。

Our program was produced today by Julie Snyder and myself with Alex Blumberg, Susan Burton and Blue Chevigny.

Contributing editors for this show, Paul Tough, Jack Hitt, Margy Rochlin, Alix Spiegel, Nancy Updike, and consigliere Sarah Vowell.

Production help comes from Seth Lind and Emily Youssef.

塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 和艾米丽·优素福 (Emily Youssef) 为制作提供帮助。

[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS]

[致谢]

Our website, where you can get our free, weekly podcast, or you can listen to any of our shows for absolutely free, www.thisamericanlife.org.

我们的网站，您可以在其中获得我们的免费每周播客，也可以完全免费收听我们的任何节目，www.thisamericanlife.org。

This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.

《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。

[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight for our program by Mr. Torey Malatia.

Whenever I go up to him to talk about the budget or advertising or marketing for the radio show, he responds by saying,

I don't know.

我不知道。

I have to go look it up in The Lesbian Love Handbook of Life.

I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life .

我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。

This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。