143: Sentencing - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #143 | October 22, 1999 143: Sentencing Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 143 集 | 1999 年 10 月 22 日 143：量刑说明：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass Daniel Rostenkowski was a congressman for 36 years.
序言 Ira Glass Daniel Rostenkowski 担任国会议员 36 年。
The powerful chairman of one of the most powerful committees-- Ways and Means.
最有权势的委员会之一——筹款委员会的主席。
But a funny thing happened when he was sentenced to prison for mail fraud.
但当他因邮件诈骗被判入狱时，发生了一件有趣的事情。
He started to meet people like one young man, 20 years old, who approached him in the exercise yard one day.
他开始结识一些人，比如一位 20 岁的年轻人，有一天在操场上向他走来。
And this young man, a very young, good looking young man, said to me, you know, are you the congressman?
这个年轻人，一个非常年轻、英俊的年轻人，对我说，你知道吗，你是国会议员吗？
Yeah, I am.
是的，我是。
I said, well, my gosh, what did you do that was so bad?
我说，天哪，你做了什么这么糟糕的事？
He said, well, I transported drugs.
他说，好吧，我运输毒品。
I said, why would you do such a thing?
我说，你为什么要做这样的事？
And he said, well, I was going to school and I needed the money.
他说，好吧，我要去上学，我需要钱。
I said, OK.
我说，好吧。
So what was the price that you sought for moving these drugs?
那么您为转移这些药物寻求的价格是多少？
He said, I got $10,000.
他说，我有10,000美元。
I said, didn't you think that was an exorbitant amount of money to carry a package?
我说，你不觉得托一个包裹要花很多钱吗？
Yeah.
是的。
I said, so you really knew that it was drugs?
我说那你真的知道那是毒品吗？
I mean, I figured that it was.
我的意思是，我认为是这样。
And I said, what was your sentence?
我说，你的判决是什么？
He said 17 years.
他说17年。
I said, my gosh.
我说，天啊。
First offense.
第一次犯规。
To put this number in perspective, in federal courts a first time rapist gets five to seven years, kidnappings, four to five years, second degree murder is 11 to 14 years.
从这个数字来看，在联邦法院，首次强奸犯将被判处 5 至 7 年有期徒刑，绑架者将被判处 4 至 5 年徒刑，二级谋杀罪则被判处 11 至 14 年徒刑。
And here's the thing.
事情是这样的。
The young man was sentenced under a 1980's drug law that Rostenkowski had voted for himself.
这位年轻人根据 1980 年代的禁毒法被判刑，罗斯滕科夫斯基本人投票赞成该法。
It set harsh mandatory minimum sentences for drug offenders, even first time offenders.
它对毒品犯罪者，甚至是初犯，设定了严厉的强制性最低刑期。
Rostenkowski thought the guy deserved to be punished, but locking him up from the end of adolescence until the beginning of middle age, it seemed excessive.
罗斯滕科夫斯基认为这家伙应该受到惩罚，但把他从青春期末一直关到中年初期，似乎有些过分了。
The whole thing is a sham in my opinion.
在我看来，整件事都是一场骗局。
It's not justice.
这不是正义。
It's this get 'em idea.
就是这个让他们明白。
Now, the kind of sentencing laws that put him in for so long, can I ask you to explain the terms in which those were discussed among congressmen when those were being talked about?
现在，那种让他被关押了这么长时间的量刑法律，我可以请你解释一下国会议员在讨论这些法律时所用的术语吗？
Why were those voted for?
为什么这些人被投票了？
I can't tell you that, I don't remember it.
我不能告诉你，我不记得了。
I'm not trying to duck that question but I was totally in a tunnel vacuum vision with my jurisdiction.
我并不是想回避这个问题，但我完全处于我管辖范围内的隧道真空视野中。
And I expected out of the Judiciary Committee--
我期望司法委员会——
The committee that made these particular laws?
制定这些特定法律的委员会？
--to have the experts in the Judiciary Committee give me the best conclusion.
——请司法委员会的专家给我最好的结论。
Listening to the debate about these things on the floor of the House of Representatives had nothing to do with it.
在众议院听关于这些事情的辩论与此无关。
Not long after he got out of prison, Rostenkowski made a speech to lawyers in which he said he voted for these laws because he was quote, "swept along by the rhetoric about getting tough on crime.
出狱后不久，罗斯滕科斯基向律师发表演讲，他在演讲中表示，他投票支持这些法律是因为他“被严厉打击犯罪的言论所吸引。
Few of us had the patience or courage to point out to the public that there was relatively little that changes in federal laws could do to reduce the violent crime in their neighborhood.
我们中很少有人有耐心或勇气向公众指出，联邦法律的变化对于减少他们社区的暴力犯罪几乎无济于事。
So we acted, took our low bows, and went on to other topics." As a result, he said, we lock up too many people for too long.
所以我们采取行动，低头鞠躬，然后继续讨论其他话题。”他说，结果是我们把太多人关了太长时间。
And I don't know how to correct it.
而且我不知道如何纠正它。
No member of the legislature that I know of will take this on because it's not popular.
据我所知，立法机构中没有一个成员会接受这一点，因为它不受欢迎。
And he'll be criticized as being weak in the criminal justice system.
他还将被批评为刑事司法系统中的软弱者。
Before he was put under investigation himself, Rostenkowski says, he didn't really know about the sentencing guidelines even though he'd voted for them.
罗斯滕科斯基说，在他自己接受调查之前，他并不真正了解量刑指南，尽管他投票支持了这些指南。
And in this way, I'd argue, he is more like the rest of us than not.
我认为，通过这种方式，他更像我们其他人。
Most of us don't pay much attention to all the laws that are written.
我们大多数人并不太关注所有成文的法律。
We do exactly what Rostenkowski did.
我们所做的正是罗斯滕科夫斯基所做的。
We have some vague faith that someone, somewhere, is paying attention.
我们有一些模糊的信念，认为某个地方有人正在关注。
And if something bad is happening, if something unfair is happening, somebody will tell us.
如果发生了不好的事情，如果发生了不公平的事情，有人会告诉我们。
What we offer today on our radio program is a study of how that faith failed us and where we've ended up.
今天我们在广播节目中提供的是对这种信仰如何让我们失望以及我们最终走向何方的研究。
From WBEZ Chicago and Public Radio International, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 和国际公共广播电台的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
In the last 20 years there's been a radical shift in the way that we sentence people to prison-- mandatory minimum sentences, three strikes and you're out laws, laws bouncing 12 and 13 and 14 year olds into adult court for long adult sentences.
在过去的 20 年里，我们判刑的方式发生了根本性的转变——强制性最低刑期、三振就出局的法律、将 12 岁、13 岁和 14 岁的青少年送入成人法庭接受长期成人刑罚的法律。
Because of all this, the prison population has grown by 50% in less than a decade.
正因为如此，监狱人口在不到十年的时间里增加了 50%。
And at some point or another we've all heard news stories about harsh sentences, possibly unfair sentences.
在某些时候，我们都听说过有关严厉判决的新闻报道，甚至可能是不公平的判决。
And many of us carry a notion somewhere in our heads that maybe some part of this has gone too far.
我们中的许多人脑子里都有一个想法，也许这件事的某些部分已经太过分了。
But, you know, who has the time to sit down and figure all of this out?
但是，你知道，谁有时间坐下来解决所有这些问题？
Well, in today's show we tried to figure it out.
好吧，在今天的节目中我们试图找出答案。
And we bring you stories of places where the law seems to be working just fine, where it seems fair, and stories about those areas in which there seem to be some problems.
我们为您带来了法律似乎运作良好、公平的地方的故事，以及似乎存在问题的领域的故事。
All our stories today are about drug laws.
我们今天所有的故事都是关于毒品法的。
Act One of our program today: What's Wrong With This Picture?
我们今天的节目第一幕：这张照片出了什么问题？
The story of how a person could be sentenced to 19 years for drug possession even if police found no drugs, no drug money, no residue, no paraphernalia.
这个故事讲述了一个人如何因持有毒品而被判处 19 年徒刑，即使警方没有发现毒品、没有毒资、没有残留物、没有用具。
Even if it's a first offense.
即使这是初犯。
Act Two: How We Got Here.
第二幕：我们是如何到达这里的。
A firsthand account of how and why Congress wrote these laws in the first place.
关于国会最初如何以及为何制定这些法律的第一手资料。
And believe me, my friend, it is not pretty, from a lawyer who helped draft the laws working for the Congress.
相信我，我的朋友，这对于一位帮助起草国会法律的律师来说并不漂亮。
This is the story of a case where the law worked exactly as it is supposed to.
这是一个法律完全按照其应有的方式运作的案件的故事。
This is our system working as we have designed it.
这是我们的系统，按照我们设计的方式运行。
Dorothy Gaines was living in Mobile, Alabama, 39 years old, the mother of three children, working as a nursing assistant.
多萝西·盖恩斯 (Dorothy Gaines) 现年 39 岁，住在阿拉巴马州莫比尔，是三个孩子的母亲，担任护理助理。
The father of her oldest child was a man named Larry Johnson.
她最大的孩子的父亲是一个名叫拉里·约翰逊的男人。
Dorothy says that she hadn't talked with him in years, that they used to fight over child support.
多萝西说她已经很多年没有和他说话了，他们常常为了孩子的抚养费而争吵。
There was bad blood between them.
他们之间存在着不和。
And when he was thrown in prison on drug charges, to get himself a lower sentence he said that she was part of a drug ring.
当他因毒品指控被投入监狱时，为了减轻自己的刑罚，他说她是贩毒集团的一员。
I always felt like it was a revenge thing.
我总觉得这是一种报复。
You know, as I read my paperwork and I talk to my attorney, she told me also that he brought up some things against his own mother.
你知道，当我阅读我的文件并与我的律师交谈时，她还告诉我，他提出了一些针对他自己母亲的事情。
So, you know, I didn't know that.
所以，你知道，我不知道这一点。
At the time she and her children were living with a man named Terrell Hines, her common-law husband.
当时，她和孩子们与她的同居丈夫特雷尔·海因斯住在一起。
He was a working person.
他是一个工人。
A merchant seaman that also came out of the service with honors.
一名商船海员也以优异的成绩退役。
But he got caught up into doing drugs.
但他却陷入了吸毒的困境。
You know, when I saw that he was falling, I did my best to put him in rehab for him to get off drugs.
你知道，当我看到他摔倒时，我尽全力把他送进戒毒所，让他戒毒。
Federal investigators came to believe that Dorothy and her husband were part of a conspiracy to move cocaine from Miami to Mobile.
联邦调查人员开始相信，多萝西和她的丈夫参与了将可卡因从迈阿密运往莫比尔的阴谋。
She was charged with possession of two kilos of crack cocaine with intent to distribute.
她被指控持有两公斤强效可卡因并意图分发。
Lyn Campbell is Dorothy's current attorney.
林恩·坎贝尔是多萝西的现任律师。
OK.
好的。
They searched her house stem to stern and did not find the first hint of residue.
他们从头到尾搜查了她的房子，没有发现任何残留物。
And they looked for residue, sandwich bags, cellphone bills, beeper bills, money, hidden guns, hidden--, nothing.
他们寻找残留物、三明治袋、手机账单、传呼机账单、金钱、隐藏的枪支、隐藏的——什么也没有。
And that is incredibly unusual.
这是非常不寻常的。
They found no paraphernalia, no drug scales.
他们没有发现任何用具，也没有发现毒品秤。
They found no evidence that she'd ever made any money from the drug business.
他们没有发现任何证据表明她曾从毒品生意中赚过钱。
There was no evidence introduced that she had any money other than what she got through her meager job and the public assistance her children got.
没有任何证据表明她除了通过微薄的工作获得的收入和孩子们得到的公共援助之外还有其他钱。
All indications was that she was just living on the edge of poverty.
种种迹象表明，她正生活在贫困的边缘。
How did they decide two kilos, since they never actually found any crack cocaine in her home?
既然他们从未在她家里发现任何强效可卡因，他们是如何决定两公斤的呢？
Well, it was totally based upon, according to the agent that testified, what the kingpin of the conspiracy said.
嗯，据作证的特工称，这完全是基于该阴谋的主脑所说的。
That he had stored a kilo of crack at her house on one occasion.
有一次他在她家里储存了一公斤可卡因。
And on another occasion he had brought a kilo through and picked up a kilo of powder from her house that was later converted to crack.
还有一次，他带了一公斤粉末过来，从她家里捡了一公斤粉末，后来变成了可卡因。
So it was totally on what he said.
所以这完全是他说的。
If that were not true, why would he say that?
如果事实并非如此，他为什么要这么说呢？
What's in it for him just to finger her?
他只是用手指抚摸她有什么意义？
Well, cooperating witnesses get substantial sentencing cuts in the federal system.
嗯，合作的证人在联邦系统中会得到大幅减刑。
It's the only real way to get your time reduced.
这是减少时间的唯一真正方法。
And because he was a leader, and I believe there were some weapons involved with him, he was looking basically at a life sentence.
因为他是一名领导人，而且我相信他身上有一些武器，所以他基本上考虑的是无期徒刑。
By telling on other people, and by being valuable to the federal government, he ended up with less than 15 years in jail.
由于告发其他人以及对联邦政府有价值，他最终被判入狱不到 15 年。
So he has a big incentive to turn in as many people as he can.
所以他有很大的动力去举报尽可能多的人。
Because there was no physical evidence implicating Dorothy, her case had been dropped in state court.
由于没有任何物证暗示多萝西，她的案件已在州法院被撤销。
But the federal rules are different.
但联邦规则有所不同。
In federal court you don't need physical evidence.
在联邦法院，您不需要物证。
And the federal drug law has another provision that hurt Dorothy Gaines.
联邦禁毒法还有另一项伤害多萝西·盖恩斯的条款。
It says that if you have knowledge of a conspiracy, or benefit from a conspiracy, or have some tiny role in a conspiracy, you can be accused of all the drugs involved in the conspiracy.
它说，如果你了解阴谋，或者从阴谋中受益，或者在阴谋中扮演一些微小的角色，你就可以被指控参与阴谋中涉及的所有毒品。
So even if you just carry an unmarked package from one side of town to another once, you could be charged with the same amount of drugs as the person who ran the whole operation for years.
因此，即使你只是将一个没有标记的包裹从城镇的一端搬运到另一端，你也可能被指控与经营整个业务多年的人相同数量的毒品。
Dorothy fought the charges.
多萝西对指控进行了抗辩。
She says she didn't do anything wrong.
她说她没有做错任何事。
And she says they have no real evidence against her, just the testimony of a bunch of admitted drug dealers.
她说他们没有针对她的真正证据，只有一群承认的毒贩的证词。
I got the longest time of anybody in the trial, 19 years and seven months.
我是整个审判中被判最长刑期的人，19年零7个月。
And I understand that the guy who is accused of running the drug ring and who had admitted to a lot of the charges against him, and who had a previous record, that he's actually going to get out eight years before you will.
据我了解，那个被指控经营贩毒团伙、承认了很多针对他的指控的人，以及之前有前科的人，他实际上会比你早八年出狱。
Exactly.
确切地。
Ira Glass And did you have a previous record going into this?
Ira Glass 你之前有这方面的记录吗？
I had no record.
我没有记录。
Ira Glass So what do you make of that?
Ira Glass 那么你对此有何看法？
I mean, I'm still trying to deal with this emotionally.
我的意思是，我仍在尝试从情感上处理这个问题。
I still try to deal with it every day, that I got 19 years and seven months on what somebody said I done.
我仍然每天都在努力应对这个问题，因为有人说我做了什么，我被判了 19 年零 7 个月。
No evidence, and all these other people had evidence against them.
没有证据，而所有其他人都有对他们不利的证据。
When I got sentenced on that date, my kids were there at the courtroom with me.
当我那天被判刑时，我的孩子们和我一起在法庭上。
And when the judge said-- he didn't say 19 years, he said 235 months, and I just couldn't function.
当法官说——他没有说 19 年，他说的是 235 个月，而我就是无法正常工作。
I mean, I reached over and I asked my attorney, I said, what did he say?
我的意思是，我伸手问我的律师，我说，他说什么？
He said 235 months.
他说235个月。
And I said, what is 235 months, because I just couldn't think.
我说，235 个月是多少，因为我实在想不出来。
And he said it's 19 years and seven months.
他说已经19年零7个月了。
And, I don't know, I just lost it.
而且，我不知道，我只是失去了它。
All I could hear were my kids screaming in the background.
我只能听到我的孩子们在背景中尖叫。
And when the marshals took me out, one of the lady marshals was crying.
当法警带我出去时，一位女法警在哭。
And I said what's wrong?
我说怎么了？
She said, to see your son hold onto the judge and tell him that my mother's all I got, don't send her away.
她说，看到你儿子抓住法官并告诉他我母亲是我的全部，不要把她送走。
She said that was the most hurting thing.
她说这是最伤人的事。
The U.
U。
S.
S。
Attorney's Office in southern Alabama, which is the office that prosecuted Dorothy Gaines, declined to be interviewed on tape for this story.
阿拉巴马州南部的检察官办公室是起诉多萝西·盖恩斯的办公室，拒绝就此事接受录音采访。
But a prosecutor acting as a spokesman for that office told us over the phone that the office still contends that she's guilty, that her conviction has withstood several appeals.
但担任该办公室发言人的检察官在电话中告诉我们，该办公室仍然认为她有罪，并且她的定罪已经经受住了多次上诉。
And as for her 19-year prison term, the prosecutor said that when he began his job, he thought sentences like this were unfair.
至于她19年的刑期，检察官表示，当他开始工作时，他认为这样的判决是不公平的。
But now that he's seen the devastation that crack cocaine has on families' lives, he thinks they're justified.
但现在他看到了强效可卡因对家庭生活造成的破坏，他认为这是合理的。
He reiterated this several times.
他多次重申这一点。
One of the jurors in Dorothy Gaines' case told a reporter that, while he thought that she deserved a few years in prison, he was flabbergasted that she got 19.
多萝西·盖恩斯 (Dorothy Gaines) 案件的一名陪审员告诉记者，虽然他认为她应该入狱几年，但令他惊讶的是她竟然被判入狱 19 年。
It was possible for him to be surprised because, in federal cases like this one, the jurors only determine guilt or innocence.
他可能会感到惊讶，因为在像这样的联邦案件中，陪审员只决定有罪或无罪。
They aren't present for sentencing.
他们没有出席宣判。
Sentencing is done by judges who have to follow federal sentencing guidelines.
量刑由法官执行，法官必须遵循联邦量刑指南。
And at sentencing, the rules of evidence are much looser than they were during the trial-- testimony that never made it to the witness stand, things that were said to police but never entered into evidence, incredibly, even past charges that you've been accused of and found innocent of in other trials.
在量刑时，证据规则比审判期间宽松得多——证词从未出现在证人席上，向警方说过但从未成为证据的事情，令人难以置信，甚至是你在其他审判中被指控并被判无罪的过去的指控。
These can all be used against you during sentencing.
这些都可以在量刑时用来对付你。
And it is at this point in the process, when the rules are so loose, that the court decides the amount of the drugs you'll be charged with.
正是在这个过程中，当规则如此宽松时，法院才会决定您被指控的毒品数量。
A tiny amount will mean a smaller sentence.
少量意味着较小的句子。
A greater amount can mean decades in prison.
数额更大可能意味着数十年的监禁。
Again, Dorothy's attorney Lyn Campbell.
再次是多萝西的律师林恩·坎贝尔。
I'm in the system a lot.
我经常在体制内。
I think the biggest abuse we still have is the amounts get puffed because--
我认为我们仍然存在的最大的滥用行为是金额被夸大，因为——
The quantities of drugs.
药品的数量。
Lyn Campbell The quantities, they get puffed up.
林恩·坎贝尔（Lyn Campbell） 数量多，他们就膨胀了。
What's the sign that things are getting puffed up?
什么迹象表明事情正在变得浮夸？
What do you usually see that makes you think that it's puffed up in a particular case?
您通常看到什么让您认为在特定情况下它是自吹自擂的？
Well, you might have somebody caught with, let's say, an ounce of crack.
好吧，你可能会发现有人沾染了，比方说，一盎司的可卡因。
They're busted red handed.
他们被当场抓获。
They've got an ounce on them.
他们还有一盎司。
By the time they get to sentencing they're being held accountable for, let's say, a kilo and a half, which maxes them out.
当他们宣判时，他们要承担一公斤半的责任，这让他们筋疲力尽。
But you have to understand, when you convert kilos to pounds, just to make the illustration better, a kilo is 2.2 pounds.
但你必须明白，当你把公斤换算成磅时，为了更好地说明，一公斤是2.2磅。
Each pound has 16 ounces.
每磅有 16 盎司。
So you're talking, in essence, of 31 phantom ounces.
所以您实际上是在谈论 31 幻盎司。
How do they get boosted from one ounce to 2.2 pounds?
它们如何从 1 盎司增加到 2.2 磅？
It's what somebody says.
这是有人说的。
If somebody says, oh, Fred brought in a ki, boom, there you go.
如果有人说，哦，弗雷德带来了气，繁荣，就这样。
And then what kind of sentence are they looking at?
那么他们在看什么样的句子呢？
Well, depending on their criminal history, if they're somebody like Dorothy, they're looking at 19 years seven months, provided there are no guns and they're not supervising anybody.
好吧，根据他们的犯罪记录，如果他们是像多萝西这样的人，他们会被判 19 年零 7 个月，前提是没有枪支，而且他们不监督任何人。
So, I mean, actually you could get 360 to life on a first offense, 30 to life.
所以，我的意思是，实际上你第一次犯规就可以被判 360 终身监禁，30 终身监禁。
And life in the federal system is life.
联邦系统中的生活就是生活。
You come out in a box.
你从一个盒子里出来。
There is no parole.
没有假释。
Nearly 2/3 of all federal drug offenders across the country have never been convicted of a violent crime.
全国近 2/3 的联邦毒品犯罪者从未因暴力犯罪被定罪。
40% are first-time offenders.
40%是初犯。
It's tens of thousands of people.
人数有好几万人。
Here's something else about federal drug law.
这是有关联邦毒品法的其他内容。
There is a randomness to the way that it's enforced.
它的执行方式具有随机性。
Whether you're accused has a lot to do with where you live.
您是否被指控与您居住的地方有很大关系。
Dorothy Gaines had the bad luck to live in a federal district that very aggressively targets drug offenders.
多萝西·盖恩斯 (Dorothy Gaines) 很不幸地生活在一个针对毒品犯罪者非常严厉的联邦地区。
Southern Alabama, where the largest city is Mobile, population 300,000, convicted roughly the same number of federal drug offenders in 1998 as all of Los Angeles, population 3.5 million.
阿拉巴马州南部最大的城市是莫比尔，人口 30 万，1998 年被定罪的联邦毒品罪犯数量与整个洛杉矶（人口 350 万）的数量大致相同。
Federal drug enforcement also tends to disproportionately prosecute minorities.
联邦缉毒执法部门也倾向于不成比例地起诉少数族裔。
They made up 73% of federal drug convictions in 1998 , even though 72% of illegal drug use is by white people.
1998 年，联邦毒品定罪案件中，白人占 73%，尽管 72% 的非法毒品使用者是白人。
The federal penalties are much more severe for crack cocaine than for other drugs.
联邦对强效可卡因的处罚比其他毒品严厉得多。
This is reporter Sam Hodges, who first wrote about Dorothy's case in the Alabama Mobile Register.
我是记者萨姆·霍奇斯，他首先在《阿拉巴马州移动纪事报》上报道了多萝西的案件。
It's just clear that a very high percentage, an extremely high percentage, of those who are convicted for crack, which carries the longest sentences of all, are black people.
很明显，在因毒品而被定罪的人中，黑人的比例非常高，而毒品的刑期是最长的。
And if you're in a federal judicial district where crack is the focus, as it has been in south Alabama-- and a lot of crack cases end up in federal court as opposed to state court-- then you're really up against it.
如果你所在的联邦司法区以破解案件为焦点，就像阿拉巴马州南部那样——而且很多破解案件最终都提交给联邦法院而不是州法院——那么你真的会遇到困难。
I mean, your odds of ending up with one of these very long no-parole sentences go up pretty dramatically.
我的意思是，你最终被判入这些很长的不得假释刑期的几率会大大增加。
And I think that's the environment in which Dorothy Gaines was caught up.
我认为这就是多萝西·盖恩斯所处的环境。
In the end, her 19 year prison term was higher than the federal mandatory minimum sentence for rape, for kidnapping, for running a slave trade, for criminal sexual abuse of a child, for second degree murder, for conspiracy to commit murder.
最终，她 19 年的刑期高于针对强奸、绑架、奴隶贸易、儿童性虐待、二级谋杀、共谋谋杀等罪名的联邦强制性最低刑期。
Her sentence had the same minimum as she would have gotten if she had hijacked a plane or bought and sold children for use in pornography.
她的刑期与她劫持飞机或买卖儿童用于色情制品的最低刑期相同。
You have mothers in prison that-- all you're doing now is bringing up children to be bitter against the government.
你们的母亲在监狱里——你们现在所做的就是培养孩子们对政府怀有怨恨。
I mean, my son is very bitter.
我的意思是，我的儿子非常痛苦。
And I know I never saw that in him when I was home.
我知道当我在家时我从未在他身上看到过这一点。
This law has destroyed families.
这条法律摧毁了家庭。
And how old were your kids before you went in?
你进去之前你的孩子多大了？
My daughter, my oldest daughter, Natasha, was 19 years old.
我的女儿，我的大女儿娜塔莎，当时 19 岁。
My son, Phillip, was 9 And my daughter Chara was 11.
我的儿子菲利普 (Phillip) 9 岁，我的女儿查拉 (Chara) 11 岁。
And how are they doing?
他们怎么样？
Dorothy Gaines Right now they're not doing well.
多萝西·盖恩斯 现在他们的表现并不好。
Phillip is incarcerated himself.
菲利普本人也被监禁。
He's 14.
他14岁了。
He tried to kill himself twice.
他两次试图自杀。
Right now they're trying to get him psychiatric help.
目前他们正试图为他提供精神科帮助。
He had tried to come where I was and he was stopped by the police officer.
他试图来到我所在的地方，但被警察拦住了。
Ever since I've been incarcerated he always said that he wanted to go to prison to join me.
自从我入狱以来，他总是说他想去监狱和我一起。
And I always explained to him that even if he get locked up, we won't be together.
我总是向他解释，即使他被关起来，我们也不会在一起。
Yes, I'm in Marianna Camp.
是的，我在玛丽安娜营地。
Ira Glass And how were they doing before you were indicted?
Ira Glass：在你被起诉之前他们怎么样？
Before I was incarcerated my son was an honor student.
在我入狱之前，我的儿子是一名优等生。
He's failed every year since I've been incarcerated now.
自从我入狱以来，他每年都失败。
He was an honor student?
他是一名优等生？
Dorothy Gaines He was an honor student.
多萝西·盖恩斯（Dorothy Gaines） 他是一名优等生。
He was on the honor roll.
他在光荣榜上。
And your daughter?
你的女儿呢？
Dorothy Gaines She tried going to college but after this it was so hard on her trying to go to school and take care of the kids.
多萝西·盖恩斯（Dorothy Gaines）她尝试上大学，但此后她很难再去上学并照顾孩子。
She was on the Dean's honor list.
她在院长荣誉名单上。
And she had to quit college because of this, to take care of the kids, because she didn't want anything to happen to them.
为此，她不得不退学，照顾孩子，因为她不想让他们发生任何事情。
You must feel like all the work you put into raising them is just--
你一定觉得你为抚养他们所付出的所有努力只是——
Do you think our country's gone a little crazy in trying to crack down on drugs?
你是否认为我们国家在打击毒品方面有点疯狂？
Yeah the country's gone a little crazy.
是的，这个国家有点疯狂了。
They need to really check and see what's really going on.
他们需要真正检查并了解到底发生了什么。
I mean, it's outrageous.
我的意思是，这太离谱了。
I never thought that the United States of America would be like this.
我从来没有想到美利坚合众国会是这样。
I always did my pledge.
我总是兑现我的承诺。
But it's hard now for me to do a pledge now.
但现在我很难做出承诺。
Yes.
是的。
Ira Glass Do they try to have you do the Pledge of Allegiance in prison?
艾拉·格拉斯 他们是否试图让你在监狱里宣誓效忠？
They never tried to have me since I've been incarcerated.
自从我被监禁以来，他们从未试图拘留我。
But, you know, I go to different things and they would say, well, let's do the pledge.
但是，你知道，我做了不同的事情，他们会说，好吧，让我们兑现承诺吧。
It's going to be hard now.
现在会很难了。
But I know through faith I'm going to get out of this.
但我知道通过信念我会摆脱困境。
My hopes are very strong.
我的希望非常强烈。
Dorothy Gaines, she recently lost her last appeal in the Eleventh District Court.
多萝西·盖恩斯 (Dorothy Gaines) 最近在第十一地区法院上诉失败。
She's not yet told her children.
她还没有告诉她的孩子们。
She has one final chance and it's a long shot.
她还有最后一次机会，而且机会渺茫。
She is now appealing to President Clinton for clemency.
她现在请求克林顿总统宽大处理。
It's tempting, when we hear a story like Dorothy Gaines', to think that the tough laws that put her away for 19 years were created by conservative law and order types, Republicans.
当我们听到像多萝西·盖恩斯这样的故事时，我们很容易想到，那些将她禁锢了 19 年的严厉法律是由保守的法律和秩序类型共和党人制定的。
And it would be nice to believe that part of the motivation for the loss is idealism.
如果相信失败的部分动机是理想主义，那就太好了。
There is, after all, a reasonable case to be made for getting tough on criminals.
毕竟，对罪犯采取严厉措施是有合理理由的。
But in fact, the drug laws that did in Dorothy Gaines were not created by Republicans but by Democrats.
但事实上，对多萝西·盖恩斯实施的毒品法不是由共和党制定的，而是由民主党制定的。
And as for how much idealism was at work, well, let us examine the history.
至于理想主义在多大程度上发挥了作用，好吧，让我们回顾一下历史。
It is an amazing story that begins in 1986.
这是一个精彩的故事，要从1986年开始。
1986 was a pivotal year.
1986年是关键的一年。
It was the sixth year of the Reagan presidency.
这是里根总统任期的第六个年头。
This is Eric Sterling.
这是埃里克·斯特林。
In 1986 he was the lead lawyer when it came to drug laws for the House Judiciary Committee, which was about to become a central political battleground.
1986 年，他担任众议院司法委员会毒品法的首席律师，该委员会即将成为一个中央政治战场。
The two sides in this battle: on one side Tip O'Neill and the Democrats, who had the House.
这场战斗的两方：一方是蒂普·奥尼尔和拥有众议院的民主党。
On the other side, Ronald Reagan and the Republicans, who had the Senate, the White House, and, you could argue, the hearts of the American people.
另一边是罗纳德·里根和共和党，他们拥有参议院、白宫，而且，你可以说，还拥有美国人民的心。
The bottom line was the Republicans won in 1984 on the crime issue.
1984 年，共和党在犯罪问题上取得了胜利。
They had beat up the Democrats.
他们击败了民主党。
They had attacked the Democrats as soft.
他们攻击民主党软弱。
Former Vice President Walter Mondale, the Democratic candidate for president, went down in flames.
民主党总统候选人、前副总统沃尔特·蒙代尔在大火中倒下。
And so we now come to 1986, a year in which it is possible that the Democrats could retake the Senate, a year in which the stage is being set for the 1988 election, in which Reagan will not be on the ballot.
现在我们来到了 1986 年，这一年民主党有可能重新夺回参议院，这一年为 1988 年选举奠定了基础，而里根将不会参加这次选举。
And so in the overall national political calculus, Democrats are looking around for traction.
因此，在整个国家政治考量中，民主党正在四处寻找牵引力。
And traction just means an issue that they can champion as theirs so as to win people over and get some votes?
牵引力仅仅意味着他们可以拥护自己的问题，从而赢得人们的支持并获得一些选票？
Precisely.
恰恰。
So in June, 1986, at the end of the basketball season, the champion player from the University of Maryland basketball team, Len Bias, signs with the NBA champion team, the Boston Celtics, the team of the home town of House Speaker Tip O'Neill.
于是，1986年6月，篮球赛季结束后，来自马里兰大学篮球队的冠军球员莱恩·比亚斯（Len Bias）与众议院议长蒂普·奥尼尔的家乡球队——NBA冠军球队波士顿凯尔特人队签约。
Bias flies to Boston.
比亚斯飞往波士顿。
He's going to be the hope of the Celtics.
他将成为凯尔特人队的希望。
Bias flies home.
偏见飞回家。
He's celebrating with his friends.
他正在和朋友们一起庆祝。
And he dies in the middle of the night from an overdose of cocaine of some kind.
他在半夜因服用过量可卡因而死亡。
And a few days --almost immediately-- Congress adjourns.
几天后——几乎是立即——国会休会。
Members of Congress go back to their districts for the July 4 recess.
国会议员返回各自选区参加 7 月 4 日休会。
And the Speaker keeps hearing over and over again about, if a man in the peak of his health, a young man of such promise as Len Bias, can die from cocaine, this is the proof of how bad, and dangerous, and evil this drug is and this drug phenomenon is.
议长一遍又一遍地听到，如果一个健康状况最好的人，一个像伦·比亚斯这样有前途的年轻人，会死于可卡因，这证明了这种毒品和这种毒品现象是多么糟糕、危险和邪恶。
And this was traction.
这就是牵引力。
By the summer of 1986, the national media had also discovered crack cocaine, and was kicking in full force with scare stories about this new menace to society.
到 1986 年夏天，全国媒体也发现了强效可卡因，并全力报道这种对社会的新威胁的恐怖故事。
When Tip O'Neill got back to Washington he bolted into action.
当蒂普·奥尼尔回到华盛顿后，他立即采取了行动。
The Speaker convened the Democratic leadership, the Steering and Policy Committee, the chairs of the committees, and says we're going to put together an anti-drug bill.
议长召集了民主党领导层、指导和政策委员会以及各委员会的主席，并表示我们将制定一项反毒品法案。
It is going to be a Democratic initiative and I want everybody involved.
这将是一项民主党倡议，我希望每个人都参与其中。
We're going to have a comprehensive anti-drug provision.
我们将制定全面的禁毒规定。
And I want it out of committees before we go on our August recess, August 14 or 15.
我希望在我们 8 月 14 日或 15 日休会之前，委员会能够将其通过。
And this set off about a four week stampede.
这引发了大约为期四个星期的踩踏事件。
They were told, look, you've got one month to put together your anti-drug agenda and then you're going to go home in the middle of August and you're going to campaign the hell out of that agenda.
他们被告知，看，你有一个月的时间来制定你的反毒品议程，然后你将在八月中旬回家，你将在竞选活动中彻底摆脱该议程。
And we're going to come back in September, we're going to take it to the floor, and we're going to vote on it.
我们将在九月回来，我们将把它提交给大家，我们将对其进行投票。
And this is what we're going to ride to electoral victory in November.
这就是我们将在 11 月份的选举中取得胜利的原因。
That's the plan.
这就是计划。
And to make all this happen in four weeks, just how much faster is that than usual?
要在四个星期内完成这一切，比平常快了多少？
It's warp speed.
这是曲速。
We squeezed into a month what is typically an 18-month process.
我们将通常 18 个月的流程压缩到了一个月。
So it's a legislative frenzy.
所以这是一场立法狂潮。
And three days before the end of the whole process, a couple of legislators propose this idea-- mandatory minimum sentences, a radical recasting of drug law.
在整个过程结束前三天，几位立法者提出了这个想法——强制性最低刑期，对毒品法进行彻底的改写。
If you were caught with drugs it would not matter if you were a first time offender.
如果您因吸毒而被捕，即使您是初犯也没关系。
It wouldn't matter if there were extenuating circumstances.
如果有情有可原的情况也没关系。
The only thing that would matter is the amount of drugs you were caught with.
唯一重要的是你被抓到的毒品数量。
And then the judge would give you a sentence whose length was imposed by the Congress in these laws.
然后法官会给你一个刑期，其长度是由国会在这些法律中规定的。
But it was being introduced at a point in which there was no longer an opportunity for hearings.
但它是在不再有机会举行听证会的情况下引入的。
We had no hearings.
我们没有举行听证会。
We did not consult with the Bureau of Prisons, or with the federal judiciary, or with DEA, or with the Justice Department, to at least find out from those folks what would be the effect of mandatory minimums.
我们没有咨询监狱管理局、联邦司法机构、缉毒局或司法部，至少从这些人那里了解强制最低限度的影响。
What are appropriate mandatory minimums?
什么是适当的强制性最低限度？
And the specific minimums that they chose, could you just talk about one for a moment?
他们选择的具体最低标准，您能简单谈谈吗？
How off were they?
他们过得怎么样？
Was it really so bad?
事情真的有那么糟糕吗？
Was their judgment really so bad at this point?
他们现在的判断力真的这么差吗？
The numbers that we picked in the Judiciary Committee, the 20 grams of crack cocaine, would have triggered a five-year federal minimum.
我们在司法委员会中选择的数字，即 20 克强效可卡因，将触发五年的联邦最低限度。
The Republicans in the Senate dropped the 20 grams to five grams and raised the-- from 5 years to 40 years because the Republicans were going to be tougher.
参议院的共和党人将 20 克减至 5 克，并将期限从 5 年提高到 40 年，因为共和党将采取更强硬的态度。
There was, again, no sense of, it's not a large quantity of drugs from a consumption point of view.
再次强调，从消费的角度来看，这并不是大量毒品。
It's a very small quantity.
这是一个非常小的数量。
And these are folks who have really no clear sense of the dynamics of the business enough to make a just determination.
这些人对业务的动态并没有足够清晰的认识，无法做出公正的决定。
When you're just picking a number--
当你刚刚选择一个号码时——
One member of Congress, when we tried talking in terms of real significant quantities, would say, in our city we never have quantities that much.
当我们尝试谈论实际数量时，一位国会议员会说，在我们的城市，我们的数量从来没有那么多。
I can't go back and say I'm doing something about high level traffickers because we don't have high level traffickers-- I think it was from Kentucky-- that are comparable to what you have in New York, or Houston, or Miami, or Los Angeles.
我不能回去说我正在对高级贩运者做一些事情，因为我们没有高级贩运者——我认为是来自肯塔基州——可以与纽约、休斯顿、迈阿密或洛杉矶的高级贩运者相媲美。
I'm going back to my district and I want to be able to bring something to the Chief of Police, who'll say, damn, great, this is going to help us.
我要回到我的地区，我希望能够给警察局长带来一些东西，他会说，该死的，太好了，这会对我们有所帮助。
Among the staff and among the chairman of your subcommittee, who was usually very deliberate in hearing all sides, and wanting to gather evidence, I mean, did people turn to each other and just say, what are we doing?
在你的小组委员会的工作人员和主席中，他们通常非常谨慎地听取各方意见，并希望收集证据，我的意思是，人们是否会互相转向并只是说，我们在做什么？
No, not in this case.
不，在这种情况下不是。
There's a way in which rhetoric crowds out rationality.
在某种程度上，修辞会排挤理性。
If you're a member of Congress and you've spent a lot of time dealing with the minutia of various arcane federal programs, it's not simply a breath of fresh air, it's really intoxicating to talk about the issue of drugs with its good versus evil clarity.
如果你是一名国会议员，并且你花了很多时间处理各种神秘的联邦计划的细节，那么这不仅仅是呼吸新鲜空气，以清晰的善与恶的方式谈论毒品问题确实令人陶醉。
It's like you can loosen up your tie.
就像你可以松开领带一样。
You can start pounding the table.
你可以开始拍桌子了。
And you know you can connect with your constituents when you start talking about the scourge of drugs, the menace of drugs, the danger that our children face, the epidemic, the pandemic.
你知道，当你开始谈论毒品的祸害、毒品的威胁、我们的孩子面临的危险、流行病、流行病时，你可以与你的选民建立联系。
You are saying, in a way, that anti-drug rhetoric is like a drug.
从某种程度上来说，你是说反毒品言论就像毒品。
Yes, that's right.
是的，没错。
Barney Frank called one of these issues the crack cocaine of politics.
巴尼·弗兰克将其中一个问题称为政治的强效可卡因。
And while these laws were being rushed through Congress, there was actually a commission of sober minded people, Democrats and Republicans, trying to figure out a fair solution to sentencing all federal crimes.
虽然这些法律正在国会匆忙通过，但实际上有一个由头脑清醒的人、民主党人和共和党人组成的委员会，试图找出一个公平的解决方案来对所有联邦罪行进行量刑。
And they were doing all the things that Congress was not doing.
他们正在做国会没有做的所有事情。
They were going over statistics, they were talking to prison officials and to police and to judges.
他们正在查看统计数据，他们正在与监狱官员、警察和法官交谈。
And this commission was set up just two years before by Congress itself.
这个委员会是国会在两年前成立的。
And it was due to present its comprehensive overhaul of all sentencing in just a year.
它将在短短一年内对所有量刑进行全面改革。
Congress ignored all that.
国会忽视了这一切。
Congress also ignored an order rather relevant bit of recent history, which is that Congress had already tried mandatory minimum sentences for drug crimes back in the 1950s this exact solution, and it didn't work.
国会还忽略了与近代历史相当相关的一项命令，即国会早在 20 世纪 50 年代就已经尝试过对毒品犯罪实行强制性最低刑罚这一确切解决方案，但没有奏效。
Drug use went up.
药物使用量上升。
So in the 1970s they repealed all those laws.
所以在 20 世纪 70 年代，他们废除了所有这些法律。
But there must have been a point where somebody said, well, you know, we tried this with drug policy back in the '50s and then overturned it in the '70s because it wasn't working?
但一定有人会说，嗯，你知道，我们在 50 年代就尝试过毒品政策，然后在 70 年代推翻了它，因为它不起作用？
I don't even know that that was raised in any more than an aside or in a paragraph in a background memorandum.
我什至不知道这个问题只是在背景备忘录的旁白或段落中提出的。
It was, at that point, simply not a consideration.
那时，这根本就不是一个考虑因素。
It didn't matter.
没关系。
We were going ahead with this.
我们正在继续这个工作。
In fact, it was such a success that two years later the Democrats did the whole thing again, rushed their way to another set of drug laws in a matter of weeks.
事实上，它是如此成功，以至于两年后民主党再次重蹈覆辙，在几周内匆忙制定了另一套毒品法。
And this is where they added one of the rules that did in Dorothy Gaines-- the law that any low level person who is judged to be part of a conspiracy, they can be sentenced at the same level that the leader of the conspiracy is if they have knowledge of the conspiracy and benefit from it in any way.
这就是他们在多萝西·盖恩斯案中添加的规则之一——法律规定，任何被判定为阴谋的低级别人员，如果他们了解该阴谋并以任何方式从中受益，则可以与该阴谋的领导人受到相同级别的判决。
You know, your brother was going to buy you a new set of shoes or you were going to get some money or some benefit.
你知道，你的兄弟会给你买一双新鞋，或者你会得到一些钱或一些好处。
If you have some stake in it, that is sufficient to involve you in the conspiracy.
如果你有一些利害关系，那就足以让你参与阴谋。
And if you're involved in the conspiracy, you're liable for the whole thing.
如果你参与了这个阴谋，你就要对整件事负责。
A very profound change, again without any kind of hearings.
这是一次非常深刻的变化，同样是在没有任何听证会的情况下进行的。
I don't think people were paying attention to what the consequences were going to be, and it just passed.
我认为人们没有关注后果是什么，事情就这样过去了。
When you would talk to members of Congress privately, what was your feeling about it?
当您私下与国会议员交谈时，您有何感受？
Did most of them actually believe the anti-drug rhetoric that they themselves were saying?
他们中的大多数人真的相信他们自己所说的反毒品言论吗？
There's a difference when you think about somebody doing something like passing this kind of law if you believe they're doing it idealistically-- that is, they truly believe that drugs are a scourge and someone must do something-- and doing it cynically, where they feel like well, maybe it's a scourge and maybe it's not, but basically this is what I have to do to stay in office.
当你认为有人在做类似通过此类法律的事情时，如果你相信他们是理想主义地做这件事——也就是说，他们真的相信毒品是一种祸害，必须有人做点什么——而你认为他们是愤世嫉俗地做这件事，他们感觉很好，也许这是一种祸害，也许不是，但基本上这就是我为了留在办公室必须做的事情，这是有区别的。
This is what it means to stay in business.
这就是继续经营的意义。
I was never able really to have those kinds of honest conversations with members.
我从来没有能够真正与成员进行这种诚实的对话。
To ask a question like that is too close to asking are you really gay, or-- I mean, we're talking about an extremely sensitive subject.
问这样的问题就太接近于问你是不是真的同性恋，或者——我的意思是，我们正在谈论一个极其敏感的话题。
I would say that the overwhelming majority of members of Congress believe that drugs really are a scourge.
我想说的是，绝大多数国会议员认为毒品确实是一种祸害。
But they also, at one level think, well, there's nothing we can really do about it except continue to get tougher.
但他们在某种程度上也认为，除了继续变得更强硬之外，我们对此无能为力。
And I fault them for that.
我为此责怪他们。
Our challenge with drugs is how to deal with this phenomenon that is an important part of our society, an important part of our economy, in a way that the system itself is not causing more wreckage than the drugs themselves are.
我们对毒品的挑战是如何处理这种现象，它是我们社会的重要组成部分，是我们经济的重要组成部分，同时系统本身不会造成比毒品本身更多的破坏。
But to take the other side of it, crime is going down in cities all across the country.
但另一方面，全国各地城市的犯罪率正在下降。
The domestic effect of these laws is that crime is going down.
这些法律对国内的影响是犯罪率下降。
People feel safer.
人们感觉更安全。
But dope dealing is not especially going down.
但毒品交易并没有特别减少。
I mean, we're talking about a specialized type of law, the drug laws.
我的意思是，我们谈论的是一种特殊类型的法律，即毒品法。
You know, it is still extremely easy for anybody who wants drugs in America to get them.
你知道，对于任何想要在美国获得毒品的人来说，仍然非常容易获得。
I mean, the real irony is that this is the one category of crime that keeps increasing.
我的意思是，真正具有讽刺意味的是，这是一类不断增加的犯罪。
We have almost twice as many arrests for drug crimes now as we did when these laws were passed.
现在因毒品犯罪被捕的人数几乎是这些法律通过时的两倍。
Eric Sterling quit his job with the House Judiciary Committee, disturbed over the kinds of drug laws that they were making, and created the Criminal Justice Policy Foundation, an organization that is trying to get Congress to change those laws.
埃里克·斯特林辞去了众议院司法委员会的工作，对他们正在制定的毒品法感到不安，并创建了刑事司法政策基金会，该组织试图让国会改变这些法律。
He now heads the organization.
他现在领导该组织。
We invited the two leading supporters of these tough drug laws in Congress to come on to our program and give their side of all this.
我们邀请了国会中这些严厉禁毒法的两位主要支持者加入我们的计划并支持这一切。
Both of them, Republican Representative Bill McCollum and Senator Orrin Hatch, both said no despite repeated phone calls and faxes.
尽管多次打电话和传真，共和党众议员比尔·麦科勒姆和参议员奥林·哈奇都表示不。
We were also turned down by another supporter of these laws, Senator Mike DeWine of Ohio.
我们还遭到了这些法律的另一位支持者、俄亥俄州参议员迈克·德温的拒绝。
And two senators' offices simply never returned our calls inviting them onto the show-- that's Republican senators Spencer Abraham of Michigan and John Ashcroft of Missouri.
两名参议员办公室根本没有回复我们邀请他们参加节目的电话——那就是密歇根州的共和党参议员斯宾塞·亚伯拉罕和密苏里州的约翰·阿什克罗夫特。
Coming up, we hear about all the places where drug law seems to be working fairly.
接下来，我们将了解到禁毒法似乎在所有地方公平运作。
And judges, we've got judges.
还有法官，我们有法官。
That's in a minute from Public Radio International, when our program continues.
一分钟后，国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose a theme and bring you a variety of different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，我们的节目每周都会选择一个主题，并为您带来有关该主题的各种不同类型的故事。
Today's program, Sentencing, stories of where our laws may have gone too far in the war on drugs and where they seem to be working just fine.
今天的节目《量刑》讲述了我们的法律在禁毒战争中哪些地方可能走得太远，以及哪些地方似乎运作良好的故事。
We've arrived at Act Three of our program.
我们已经到了节目的第三幕了。
Many people within the judicial system have turned against the harshness and inflexibility of current US drug sentences.
司法系统内的许多人都反对美国现行毒品刑罚的严厉性和僵化性。
The nation's chief law enforcement officer on the drug issue.
该国负责毒品问题的首席执法官。
US Drug Czar Barry McCaffrey, has come out against them, saying they are too strict and ineffective because of that.
美国缉毒沙皇巴里·麦卡弗里 (Barry McCaffrey) 站出来反对他们，称他们因此过于严格且无效。
86% of all federal judges-- this includes both Republican and Democratic appointees-- say that they want more flexibility to give fair sentences in drug law.
86% 的联邦法官（包括共和党和民主党任命的法官）表示，他们希望在毒品法中更加灵活地做出公平判决。
All 12 federal judicial districts have passed a resolution asking Congress to reconsider the wisdom of the current laws.
所有 12 个联邦司法区都通过了一项决议，要求国会重新考虑现行法律的明智性。
Dozens of senior federal judges have refused to hear any more drug cases.
数十名高级联邦法官拒绝审理更多毒品案件。
Judge Morris Lasker of the Southern District of New York, a veteran of over 30 years on the bench, stopped hearing drug cases for a couple of years.
纽约南区法官莫里斯·拉斯克 (Morris Lasker) 是一位拥有 30 多年法官经验的老法官，他已经有几年不再审理毒品案件了。
It's with regard to the drug cases that I think the greatest injustices take place.
我认为最大的不公正现象发生在毒品案件上。
They're almost all nonviolent offenses.
它们几乎都是非暴力犯罪。
They carry very substantial sentences.
它们带有非常实质性的句子。
Those were the cases I didn't want to touch.
这些是我不想碰的情况。
I don't find it so hard to send somebody to prison for a violent crime.
我觉得将某人因暴力犯罪送进监狱并不难。
Judge Terry Hatter is the Chief US District Judge for the Central District of California.
特里·哈特法官是加利福尼亚州中部地区的美国首席地区法官。
He says that under the current federal guidelines, 60% of the time he has to play word games-- that's how he put it-- word games to get to a fair result.
他说，根据目前的联邦指导方针，60%的时间他必须玩文字游戏——他是这么说的——文字游戏才能得到公平的结果。
20% of the time he says his final ruling is not the sentence he believes would be the right sentence, given the facts.
20% 的情况下，他表示，考虑到事实，他的最终裁决并不是他认为正确的判决。
A big part of the problem, he says, is that because the sentences are set for each crime when the prosecutor chooses what crime to charge a person with, the prosecutor is in effect choosing the sentence.
他说，问题的一个重要部分是，因为当检察官选择指控一个人的罪行时，每项罪行的刑罚都是确定的，所以检察官实际上是在选择刑罚。
And it turns out there are lots of cases where a person could be charged one way or another, for a more severe crime or a less severe one.
事实证明，在很多情况下，一个人可能会因更严重或不太严重的犯罪而受到这样或那样的指控。
We had two young women.
我们有两个年轻女子。
Both young women were living in Mexico City.
两名年轻女性都住在墨西哥城。
They were mothers of toddlers.
她们是幼儿的母亲。
They had been used, sadly, by their respective spouses and they were asked to bring some drugs into this country.
可悲的是，他们被各自的配偶利用，并被要求携带一些毒品进入这个国家。
And they were caught coming into the country.
他们在进入该国时被捕。
And what happened under the sentencing scheme was that the drugs were combined even though the women were traveling on their own tickets.
根据量刑计划，即使这些妇女是凭自己的机票旅行，毒品也被混合在一起。
They counted the drugs collectively.
他们一起清点了毒品。
Is that because they could be seen as part of a conspiracy?
这是因为他们可能被视为阴谋的一部分吗？
Yes, that's right.
是的，没错。
And of course they didn't have to be charged that way but they were.
当然，他们不必以这种方式收费，但他们确实如此。
And since they were, then they were faced with 10-year mandatory minimums.
既然如此，他们就面临着 10 年的强制性最低限度。
A young prosecutor has the ability, which I don't have as a presidential appointee confirmed by the United States Senate, serving for life.
一名年轻的检察官拥有终身任职的能力，而我作为美国参议院确认的总统任命人却没有这种能力。
I don't have that.
我没有那个。
But the young prosecutor can make a motion to go below the mandatory minimum on the basis of substantial assistance being provided to the government.
但年轻的检察官可以在向政府提供大量援助的基础上提出动议，要求低于强制性最低标准。
In other words, the prosecutor, if he says that these women have helped us out, he can change the charge so that the women's sentence would change?
也就是说，检察官如果说这些女人帮了我们的忙，他可以改变罪名，让女人的刑期改变吗？
What he can do do then is trigger my ability, then, to go below the mandatory minimum.
那么他能做的就是触发我的能力，然后低于强制性最低要求。
But you as the judge-- Terry Hatter But I can't do it myself, no. only the prosecutor can do that.
但你作为法官 - 特里·哈特 但我自己做不到，不。只有检察官才能这样做。
I intended to give them harsh sentences just because they were involved in drug dealing, two or three years perhaps.
我打算仅仅因为他们参与毒品交易就对他们判处严厉的刑罚，也许两三年。
But as it turned out, when they came back for sentencing, I said to the young female prosecutor, are you going to make a motion for downward departure?
但结果他们回来宣判的时候，我对那个年轻的女检察官说，你要提出向下离开的动议吗？
And she said no.
她说不。
It wasn't that the witnesses had not cooperated.
并不是证人不合作。
The prosecution agreed that they had.
检方同意他们确实这么做了。
They told everything they knew.
他们讲述了他们所知道的一切。
They were truthful.
他们是诚实的。
It was just that they did not know that much.
只是他们知道的还不够多。
They did not have much information to give.
他们没有太多信息可提供。
They were at the bottom of the drug hierarchy, not that useful to the government's investigations
它们处于毒品等级的最底层，对政府的调查没有多大用处
Judge Hatter felt that was unfair.
哈特法官认为这不公平。
The women had cooperated as much as they possibly could.
妇女们已尽力配合。
It was not their fault that they had no useful information.
没有有用的信息并不是他们的错。
So he filed the motion that would allow him to sentence them to fewer years than the guidelines permit.
因此，他提出了一项动议，允许他对他们的刑期少于指导方针允许的刑期。
This was unprecedented and, it turns out, against the law.
这是史无前例的，而且事实证明这是违法的。
It was overturned on appeal, just another example, says Judge Hatter, of how the prosecutor has more power than he does to determine a person's sentence.
哈特法官表示，这一判决在上诉中被推翻，这只是另一个例子，说明检察官在决定一个人的刑罚方面拥有比他更大的权力。
Well, that's true in every case.
嗯，在任何情况下都是如此。
That's true in every case because the prosecutor makes the decision on how to charge that particular case.
在每个案件中都是如此，因为检察官决定如何起诉该特定案件。
And dependent upon what the charge is, you know what the sentence is pretty much.
根据指控的内容，你几乎知道刑罚是什么。
In the 1993 case United States of America against Johnny Patillo, a Reagan appointee to the bench, US District Judge J.
在 1993 年美利坚合众国针对里根任命的法官约翰尼·帕蒂洛 (Johnny Patillo) 的案件中，美国地区法官 J.
Spencer Letts, was so outraged that he had to sentence a man to 10 years for delivering a package containing drugs to a Federal Express office, that his decision in the case included this.
斯宾塞·莱茨 (Spencer Letts) 非常愤怒，以至于他不得不判处一名男子 10 年徒刑，罪名是向联邦快递办事处运送装有毒品的包裹，他在此案中的判决也包括了这一点。
He wrote, it is hard to imagine that there is any other nation in which a convicted rapist with a long and unsavory history of prior misconduct can be sentenced by the judge who presides over his trial to a sentence which will make him eligible for parole in less than three years while defendant, a first time offender with a spotless prior record, stands to be sentenced by a Congress who has never seen him and never judged him, to a minimum sentence of 10 years without the possibility of parole.
他写道，很难想象在任何其他国家，一个有着长期且令人厌恶的不当行为历史的被定罪的强奸犯可以被主持审判的法官判处三年内获得假释资格的刑罚，而被告，一个以前记录完美的初犯，将被从未见过他也从未审判过他的国会判处至少10年徒刑，且不得假释。
In my view a criminal justice system that does not require not only those who accuse a criminal, but also those who sentence him, to confront him and publicly acknowledge their acts as their own to his face, is worse than uncivilized, it is barbaric.
在我看来，刑事司法制度不仅要求那些指控罪犯的人，而且还要求那些判刑的人与他对峙并公开承认他们的行为是他们自己的行为，这比不文明更糟糕，这是野蛮的。
So before the show ended we wanted to know, how typical are the horror stories?
所以在节目结束之前我们想知道这些恐怖故事有多典型？
How typical is a case like Dorothy Gaines'?
像多萝西·盖恩斯这样的案例有多典型？
What happens in a typical drug case?
典型的毒品案件会发生什么？
All this hour, up until this point, we've been talking about federal drug laws.
整整一个小时，直到此刻，我们一直在谈论联邦毒品法。
And while 20,000 people are convicted each year on federal drug charges, most drug crimes in this country end up in state courts.
虽然每年有 20,000 人因联邦毒品指控被定罪，但这个国家的大多数毒品犯罪最终都是在州法院审理。
In 1996 it was 350,000 convictions in state court.
1996 年，州法院有 350,000 起定罪案件。
Some states are known for especially ruthless drug laws, like New York State.
有些州以特别残酷的毒品法而闻名，比如纽约州。
But for the most part state drug laws are usually less harsh and less rigid than the federal statutes.
但在大多数情况下，州的毒品法通常没有联邦法规那么严厉和严格。
Often they include a whole range of creative sentencing options including treatment programs, probation, boot camp.
它们通常包括一系列创造性的量刑选择，包括治疗计划、缓刑、新兵训练营。
So to find out what happens in a typical drug case, This American Life producer Nancy Updike went to state court here in Chicago.
因此，为了了解典型的毒品案件会发生什么，《美国生活》制片人南希·厄普代克前往芝加哥州法院。
Chicago deals with its huge caseload of drug crimes by holding court at night.
芝加哥通过夜间开庭处理大量毒品犯罪案件。
The City decided 10 years ago that rather than build new courtrooms to handle its 40,000 drug cases a year, it would simply open up some of its existing courtrooms at the end of the regular court day, and these rooms would handle only felony drug crimes.
10 年前，纽约市决定不再建造新的法庭来处理每年 40,000 起毒品案件，而只是在常规法庭日结束时开放一些现有法庭，这些法庭将只处理重罪毒品犯罪。
The court day starts up about 4:00 PM.
开庭日大约在下午 4:00 开始。
For an hour or so, defendants have been heading up the stairs and into the seven story stone courthouse down on 26th Street in Chicago.
在大约一个小时的时间里，被告一直走上楼梯，进入位于芝加哥第 26 街的七层石头法院大楼。
Unless you work at 26th Street, this is not a place you end up if your life is going well.
除非你在 26 街工作，否则如果你的生活进展顺利的话，这不是你最终会去的地方。
As I was walking into the building the other day around 3:30, I passed a black man in his fifties and saw him stop in his tracks, quietly throw up on the pavement, and keep walking.
那天下午3点30分左右，当我走进大楼时，我经过一个五十多岁的黑人男子，看到他停下脚步，静静地吐在人行道上，然后继续走。
The courtroom I sat in on is set up sort of in the round.
我坐的法庭是圆形的。
The judge's desk is a huge curve at the top of the circle.
法官的办公桌是圆圈顶部的一个巨大的曲线。
The jury box sits at his right, usually empty.
陪审团席位于他的右侧，通常是空的。
There are very few jury trials in night court.
夜间法庭很少有陪审团审判。
And at the foot of the circle are two tables, one for the prosecutors and one for the public defenders.
圆圈的底部有两张桌子，一张给检察官，一张给公设辩护人。
Behind the lawyers are huge panes of glass, and behind the glass are defendants and their families.
律师后面是巨大的玻璃窗，玻璃后面是被告及其家人。
To picture this courtroom, please don't imagine a majestic, echoey space with fine polished wood like in The Verdict or some John Grisham movie.
要想象这个法庭，请不要像《判决》或约翰·格里沙姆的电影那样想象一个宏伟的、回声十足的空间，里面有精美的抛光木材。
This room is much smaller and dingier, with fluorescent lights, bland carpeting and 70s paneling on the walls.
这个房间更小、更肮脏，有荧光灯、平淡的地毯和 70 年代的镶板。
I'm not allowed to record anything in the courtroom itself.
我不被允许在法庭上录制任何内容。
So you'll have to guess at exactly what sound all this bad taste makes.
所以你必须准确地猜测所有这些糟糕的品味会发出什么声音。
The judge in the courtroom is Daniel Darcy.
法庭的法官是丹尼尔·达西。
I was born and raised in Chicago on the South Side, enlisted in the Army in 1966, came back home and joined the Chicago Police Department.
我在芝加哥南区出生和长大，1966 年入伍，回到家乡后加入了芝加哥警察局。
During my time on the police department I went to undergraduate, graduate school, and law school.
在警察局工作期间，我读了本科、研究生和法学院。
I got my law degree--
我获得了法律学位——
Darcy is a serious man with white hair who bears a passing resemblance to Andy Griffith.
达西是一个严肃的白发男人，与安迪·格里菲斯有几分相似。
He calls all the defendants Mister and Miss.
他称呼所有被告为先生和小姐。
He hears about 40 cases a night.
他每晚会审理大约 40 起案件。
Most of the cases, 90% of the cases, are either small possession charges or people who are selling two or three packets of cocaine to other people on the street.
大多数案件（90%）要么是小额持有可卡因，要么是向街上的其他人出售两包或三包可卡因。
And the reason is, one, is to support their own habit, or to make a few dollars.
原因是，一，是为了支持自己的习惯，或者是为了赚几块钱。
Here's a typical case.
这是一个典型案例。
Tony Bell was a skinny, 27 year old black man who kept rubbing his head with his hands.
托尼·贝尔是一位27岁的瘦瘦黑人，他不停地用手揉着头。
He stood in front of the judge with his back to me, and was charged with possession of 2/10 of a gram of crack.
他背对着我站在法官面前，被指控持有 2/10 克快克。
Think of a Sweet'N Low packet.
想想 Sweet'N Low 包装。
That's a gram.
那是一克。
2/10 of that.
其中 2/10。
He had no prior record.
他之前没有任何记录。
The public defender on his case was Pablo Decastro.
他的案件的公设辩护律师是巴勃罗·德卡斯特罗 (Pablo Decastro)。
Tony Bell told me that he was standing with several other people out there, which is consistent with the officer's story.
托尼·贝尔告诉我，他和其他几个人站在那里，这与警官的说法相符。
That as the officer approached, one of the guys dropped some drugs and everybody scattered but him.
当警官走近时，其中一个人扔下了一些毒品，除了他之外，其他人都四散开来。
We call it the slow runner cases.
我们称之为慢跑者案例。
Everybody ran and Tony Bell got caught.
大家都跑了，托尼·贝尔被抓住了。
When Tony Bell's case was first called, at 10 minutes to five, he said he wanted to go to trial.
当托尼·贝尔的案子第一次被传唤时，即五点差十分，他说他想接受审判。
Judge Darcy said OK, and then put the case off until later to give Pablo a chance to ready his defense.
达西法官说“好吧”，然后将案件推迟到稍后，以便让巴勃罗有机会准备辩护。
By the time Tony Bell's case was called again an hour later, he'd decided to plead guilty and take two years probation.
一小时后，当托尼·贝尔的案件再次审理时，他决定认罪并缓刑两年。
Pablo said Tony told him he was just tired of waiting and that's why he want to take the plea.
巴勃罗说托尼告诉他他只是厌倦了等待，这就是为什么他想接受请求。
The prosecutor on Tony Bell's case, Assistant State's Attorney Mike Hood, didn't buy the idea that Tony was just tired of waiting.
负责托尼·贝尔案的检察官助理州检察官迈克·胡德并不相信托尼只是厌倦了等待。
I think Mr. Bell saw the writing on the wall.
我想贝尔先生看到了不祥之兆。
They didn't have any witnesses.
他们没有任何证人。
We had a solid case.
我们有一个可靠的案例。
I think a judge, if he found him guilty at trial, would give him a similar punishment because he has no background.
我认为法官如果在审判时判定他有罪，也会给予他类似的惩罚，因为他没有背景。
So I don't think he felt he was losing anything by pleading early.
所以我认为他并没有因为过早恳求而感到失去任何东西。
Mike Hood says he believes with all his heart that every person he prosecutes in night court is guilty.
迈克·胡德说，他全心全意地相信他在夜间法庭起诉的每个人都是有罪的。
And Pablo Decastro, the public defender in Tony's case, doesn't exactly disagree.
托尼案的公设辩护人巴勃罗·德卡斯特罗 (Pablo Decastro) 并不完全不同意。
One of the old jokes about drug court, as opposed to other assignments in this office, is this is the one place where everybody did it.
与该办公室的其他任务相反，关于毒品法庭的一个老笑话是，这是每个人都做这件事的地方。
The only question is the legality of the search.
唯一的问题是搜查的合法性。
Is that what you believe?
你就是这么相信的吗？
Pablo Decastro Not everybody did it, but there's a lot of motions here more than trials.
巴勃罗·德卡斯特罗（Pablo Decastro）：并不是每个人都这么做了，但这里有很多动议，而不仅仅是试验。
There's a lot of questions about search and seizure, where you're basically admitting that the drugs were in his pocket.
有很多关于搜查和扣押的问题，基本上就是承认毒品在他的口袋里。
You're just trying to argue that the officer's hand shouldn't have been in his pocket also.
你只是想争辩说警察的手不应该也放在口袋里。
I saw 105 cases in nine hours at night court.
我在夜间法庭九个小时内看了105个案件。
Usually what would happen, since almost no one gets in and out of the legal system in one day, is that Judge Darcy would call the case number, some small action would be taken-- a motion or an update on gathering witness testimony-- and then Darcy would put the case off until a later date.
通常会发生的情况是，由于几乎没有人在一天之内进出法律系统，达西法官会拨打案件编号，采取一些小行动——一项动议或收集证人证词的更新——然后达西会将案件推迟到稍后的日期。
This happened in 101 out of the 105 cases I saw.
在我看到的 105 个案例中，有 101 个发生了这种情况。
That left four cases, four people who did get sentenced.
剩下四个案件，四个人确实被判刑。
Three got probation and one guy was sent to prison.
三人获得缓刑，一名男子被送进监狱。
He had a record of burglary and had once escaped from prison.
他有入室行窃前科，还曾越狱过。
Now, to see how typical those sentences were, I looked at all the cases from the other five courtrooms for the two nights I sat in on Darcy's room.
现在，为了看看这些判决有多典型，我在达西的房间里坐了两个晚上，查看了其他五个法庭的所有案件。
Here's what I found.
这是我发现的。
There were 343 cases total.
共有 343 例。
18 got probation and 21 got prison time, most of them less than two years.
18 人被缓刑，21 人被判入狱，其中大多数不到两年。
Five people were recommended to boot camp as an alternative to prison.
建议五人去新兵训练营作为监狱的替代方案。
The longest sentence anyone got on those two nights was six years.
在那两个晚上，最长的刑期是六年。
Two men ended up with that.
两个人最终都这样了。
One had already been in prison for burglary and sexual assault.
其中一人已因入室盗窃和性侵犯而入狱。
The other had done time for robbery and also for, as the law delicately puts it, taking indecent liberties with a child.
另一个人因抢劫而入狱，正如法律微妙地规定的那样，还因为对儿童进行不雅行为而入狱。
For the whole month I sat in on, August, 149 people were sentenced to probation, about the same number as were sent to prison, 144.
在我观察的 8 月整个月里，有 149 人被判处缓刑，与被送进监狱的 144 人大致相同。
Also, fully half of the defendants who asked for a trial in front of the judge were found not guilty, and a significant number of others were found guilty of a lesser crime than the one they had originally been charged with.
此外，要求在法官面前受审的被告中，有整整一半被判无罪，还有相当多的其他人被判犯有比最初被指控的罪行更轻的罪行。
The statistics for July and September were similar, about an equal number of sentences for probation and for prison time, and at least half of all trials ending in not guilty.
7 月和 9 月的统计数据相似，缓刑和监禁的判决数量大致相同，而且所有审判中至少有一半以无罪告终。
Overall, examining these cases, it seemed fair.
总的来说，审查这些案例似乎是公平的。
Tiny quantities of drugs got probation or short sentences, even for second and third offenses.
即使是第二次和第三次犯罪，少量毒品也会被判处缓刑或短期刑期。
Large quantities of drugs, but especially a history of violent crime, meant longer sentences.
大量毒品，尤其是暴力犯罪史，意味着更长的刑期。
And dealers got more time than people just caught in possession of drugs.
毒贩比刚刚被发现持有毒品的人获得的时间更多。
Again, overall it seemed like a decent system.
总的来说，这似乎是一个不错的系统。
I had a long talk with Judge Darcy about his position as a state judge versus that of federal judges handling drug crimes.
我与达西法官就他作为州法官的立场与处理毒品犯罪的联邦法官的立场进行了长时间的交谈。
I don't think the laws are harsh at all at the state level.
我认为州一级的法律一点也不严厉。
So you feel like you have the freedom that you need to give out sentences that you feel are just and fair?
所以你觉得你有自由，可以做出你认为公正公平的判决？
Yes I do, absolutely.
是的，我绝对愿意。
Nancy Updike Have you ever felt forced to send someone to prison for many more years than you felt was just?
南希·厄普代克（Nancy Updike） 您是否曾经感到被迫将某人送入监狱的时间比您认为合理的时间长？
No, no. Well, sometimes some people get caught up in situations that they have no background.
不，不。好吧，有时有些人会陷入他们没有背景的情况中。
And the sentence calls for a minimum of six years.
刑期至少为六年。
So, in other words, it's the first time that they're arrested but they're arrested with a large amount of drugs.
所以，换句话说，这是他们第一次被捕，但他们被捕时携带了大量毒品。
With a certain amount of drugs that, what we call here in state court are facing Class X penalties.
对于一定数量的毒品，我们在州法院所说的毒品将面临 X 级处罚。
And the penalty for a Class X felony, if they're convicted, is 6 to 30 years.
X 级重罪一旦被定罪，可判处 6 至 30 年监禁。
And sometimes that doesn't fit the person if they're-- Sometimes two or three years might be good rather than six but, you know, I have to follow the law and that's what I'll do.
有时这不适合这个人，如果他们——有时两三年可能比六年更好，但是，你知道，我必须遵守法律，这就是我要做的。
But that's not normal.
但这不正常。
Most of the cases that come through here, the sentences are appropriate and the dispositions, I have no qualms with them at all.
这里处理的大部分案件，量刑恰当，处置妥当，我对此没有任何疑虑。
While the sentences for individual cases seemed fair enough, there was one thing that did not seem fair about night court.
虽然个别案件的判决似乎足够公平，但夜间法庭有一点似乎不太公平。
Out of 105 cases, almost every single defendant was black, maybe 15 Latinos, three white men.
在 105 起案件中，几乎每个被告都是黑人，也许有 15 名拉丁裔，还有 3 名白人。
In the other courtrooms it was the same.
其他法庭也是如此。
Out of hundreds of defendants, only a tiny handful were white.
在数百名被告中，只有极少数是白人。
It's not that white people charged with drug crimes happened to be coming during the day.
这并不是说被指控犯有毒品罪的白人恰好是在白天来的。
The distribution of cases among all the courtrooms, both day and night, is random.
所有法庭的案件分布，无论白天还是晚上，都是随机的。
And it's not that these courtrooms are just serving black neighborhoods.
这些法庭并不是只为黑人社区服务。
This building handles all the drug cases for the entire city of Chicago, a city that's only 38% black.
这座大楼处理整个芝加哥市的所有毒品案件，这座城市只有 38% 的黑人。
Let me remind you that 72% of drug users nationwide are white according to the Department of Health and Human Services.
让我提醒您，根据卫生与公共服务部的数据，全国 72% 的吸毒者是白人。
In Chicago that works out to 66,000 white drug users.
在芝加哥，有 66,000 名白人吸毒者。
But when it comes to drug arrests, look what happens.
但当涉及到毒品逮捕时，看看会发生什么。
In Chicago in 1997, the last year police have compiled data for, 37,000 black people were arrested for drug crimes compared to 9,000 white people.
1997 年，警方收集的数据显示，芝加哥有 37,000 名黑人因毒品犯罪被捕，而白人则为 9,000 名。
I know these numbers can be kind of hard to follow over the radio, so here's the bottom line.
我知道这些数字可能很难通过无线电来跟踪，所以这是底线。
If you're a black drug user in Chicago you have a nearly one in two chance of being arrested.
如果您是芝加哥的黑人吸毒者，您被逮捕的机会接近二分之一。
White drug users, one in seven.
白人吸毒者，占七分之一。
Anyone who works at night court sees it.
任何在夜场工作的人都会看到这一点。
I asked judge Darcy what he thought about seeing almost all black defendants night after night, whether it bothers him.
我问达西法官，他对于夜复一夜地见到几乎全是黑人被告有何感想，这是否会让他感到困扰。
When I'm judging people and people are coming in front of me, there is no color line.
当我评判人们时，人们就来到我面前，没有肤色界限。
It doesn't make any difference to me.
这对我来说没有任何区别。
Now, does it bother me that a certain group are being charged with all those crimes?
现在，某个团体被指控犯有所有这些罪行，这让我感到困扰吗？
Yes it does.
是的，确实如此。
I asked Mike Hood, the Assistant State's Attorney who prosecuted Tony Bell, what he thought about seeing practically all black defendants.
我问起诉托尼·贝尔的助理州检察官迈克·胡德，他对看到几乎全是黑人被告有何看法。
It bothers me.
这让我很烦恼。
I mean, I'm concerned.
我的意思是，我很担心。
But I don't really look at it as a-- I'm not prosecuting on race, I'm prosecuting a person for a crime.
但我并不真正将其视为——我不是在种族问题上起诉，而是在起诉一个人犯罪。
Well, I think what bothers me is that people take notice of that, like you just did.
嗯，我认为让我烦恼的是人们注意到了这一点，就像你刚才所做的那样。
But how can you not?
但你怎么能不呢？
I mean, if you're sitting in the courtroom, you know, there's a court full of mostly white people and then everyone sitting behind the glass is black.
我的意思是，如果你坐在法庭上，你知道，法庭上大部分都是白人，而坐在玻璃后面的每个人都是黑人。
Let me explain.
让我解释一下。
I meant that it bothers me that people don't look at it as the crime.
我的意思是，人们不将其视为犯罪，这让我感到困扰。
You take notice of it because you're saying it's an African American here, they're all African Americans.
你注意到它是因为你说这里是非裔美国人，他们都是非裔美国人。
I don't look at that way.
我不这么看。
My issues are very simple.
我的问题很简单。
Two grams of heroin, three transactions, two police officers, three on surveillance, the stuff was inventoried.
两克海洛因，三笔交易，两名警察，三名监视人员，这些东西都被清点了。
It's in fact crack cocaine or heroin, a good arrest, that man did it, he's going to go to jail.
事实上，这是强效可卡因或海洛因，一次很好的逮捕，是那个人干的，他会进监狱的。
That's how I look at it.
我就是这么看的。
It's easy to feel, when you hear about drug sentencing in this country, that the justice system is a total mess, as though the system is running us, not the other way around.
当你听到这个国家的毒品判决时，你很容易感觉到司法系统一团糟，好像这个系统在控制我们，而不是相反。
We feel this way because what we really want from any system is to feel that it's still possible to operate within it as a human being.
我们有这种感觉是因为我们真正想要从任何系统中得到的是感觉仍然可以作为人类在其中运作。
We want to see someone make an appropriate exception.
我们希望看到有人做出适当的例外。
We want to see someone understand the reality of the rules they're implementing.
我们希望看到有人了解他们正在实施的规则的现实。
We want to see someone grasp the intent behind the system and use the system skillfully in the service of that intent.
我们希望看到有人掌握系统背后的意图，并熟练地使用系统来服务于该意图。
I saw all that at night court.
我在夜间法庭上看到了这一切。
I saw Judge Darcy talk to a defendant named, memorably, James Brown, who had been saying for more than a year that he didn't want a public defender, he wanted to hire his own lawyer.
我看到达西法官与一位名叫詹姆斯·布朗的被告交谈，一年多来，他一直在说他不需要公设辩护人，他想聘请自己的律师。
Darcy had finally had enough.
达西终于受够了。
He wasn't mad, but firm.
他并不生气，而是坚定。
He leaned forward and said, let me explain this to you.
他向前倾身说道，让我向你解释一下。
If you don't have an attorney with you next time, this public defender right here is going to stay with you and we are going to set this case for trial.
如果您下次没有律师在场，这里的公设辩护人将留在您身边，我们将对此案进行审判。
I just want to make that absolutely clear.
我只是想把这一点说清楚。
I saw Darcy agree to recommit a kid to probation after he was picked up on a new drug charge and then look the kid in the eye and say, you only get so many chances.
我看到达西同意在一个孩子因新的毒品指控而被捕后将他重新送入缓刑，然后看着孩子的眼睛说，你只有这么多机会。
Do you understand that?
你明白吗？
The kid nodded.
孩子点点头。
I found out that prosecutor Mike Hood refused to help a cop polish up his testimony, even though it would have been better for Hood's case if he'd done it, even though no reporters were around to find out about it at the time.
我发现检察官迈克·胡德拒绝帮助警察完善他的证词，即使他这样做对胡德的案子会更好，尽管当时没有记者在场了解此事。
The cop couldn't remember which kid was which out of the two he'd arrested, and he was confused about where he picked them up.
警察记不起他逮捕的两个孩子中的哪一个，他也很困惑自己是在哪里接他们的。
Hood said, so be it, and the kids were acquitted.
胡德说，就这样吧，孩子们就被无罪释放了。
These are small examples, but they demonstrate how it is possible to create a legal system with room for human beings to act like human beings.
这些都是小例子，但它们展示了如何建立一个允许人类像人类一样行事的法律体系。
I think that's what we want from our laws.
我认为这就是我们希望从我们的法律中得到的。
Nancy Updike.
南希·厄普代克。
One postscript to our show today.
我们今天的节目的后记。
Congress has not changed its opinion of mandatory minimums.
国会没有改变其对强制性最低标准的看法。
The House and Senate both recently passed the Violent and Repeat Juvenile Offender Accountability and Rehabilitation Act of 1999, which would extend more mandatory minimum sentences to more crimes, and to more crimes involving teenagers.
众议院和参议院最近都通过了《1999 年暴力和重犯青少年犯罪者责任与康复法案》，该法案将对更多犯罪行为以及更多涉及青少年的犯罪行为延长强制性最低刑期。
It can go to committee and become law anytime.
它可以随时提交委员会并成为法律。
Well, our program was produced today by Nancy Updike and of myself with Blue Chevigny, Alex Blumberg, Susan Burton, and Julie Snyder.
嗯，我们今天的节目由南希·厄普代克和我本人以及布鲁·切维尼、亚历克斯·布隆伯格、苏珊·伯顿和朱莉·斯奈德制作。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Original piano music for today's show was composed and performed by Charles [?
[致谢] 今天演出的原创钢琴音乐是由查尔斯创作和演奏的 [?
Misser.
小姐。
?] To buy a cassette of this program, call us here at WBEZ in Chicago.
?] 要购买该节目的磁带，请致电我们芝加哥的 WBEZ。
312-832-3380.
312-832-3380。
Or you know you can listen to this or any of our programs for free on the internet.
或者您知道您可以在互联网上免费收听此节目或我们的任何节目。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight by Torey Malatia, who says after every single show--
[资金来源] WBEZ 管理由 Torey Malatia 负责监督，他在每场演出结束后都会说——
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。