135: Allure of Crime - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #135 | April 28, 2006 135: Allure of Crime Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 135 集 | 2006 年 4 月 28 日 135：犯罪诱惑 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
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如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass From WBEZ Chicago and Public Radio International, it's This American Life .
序言 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥和国际公共广播电台的 Ira Glass，这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Danger is all around us, in ways we do not even suspect.
危险就在我们周围，甚至以我们意想不到的方式存在。
Crime blotter.
犯罪记事本。
The Athens Daily News , Athens, Georgia.
雅典每日新闻，佐治亚州雅典。
Athens-Clarke police investigated several weekend burglaries, including one in which a burglar stopped to prepare a sandwich.
雅典-克拉克警方调查了几起周末入室盗窃案，其中包括一名窃贼停下来准备三明治。
A Cobb Street resident told police someone cut out the window screen between 10:00 AM and 10:45 PM Saturday.
一名科布街居民告诉警方，周六上午 10:00 至晚上 10:45 期间有人剪掉了窗纱。
But nothing appeared to be missing inside, except enough bread and sandwich meat to make a sandwich, the resident told police.
但该居民告诉警方，除了足够的面包和三明治肉来做三明治外，里面似乎什么也没有丢失。
The incident is similar to several other break-ins in the past few days, including one Wednesday in which a burglar drank a bottle of beer, and another Tuesday, in which a burglar prepared a turkey sandwich.
这起事件与过去几天的其他几起入室盗窃案类似，其中一个周三，一名窃贼喝了一瓶啤酒，另一个周二，一名窃贼准备了火鸡三明治。
We think of crime as a kind of monolithic, menacing presence, a shadowy threat, lurking, faceless.
我们认为犯罪是一种整体性的、险恶的存在，一种阴暗的威胁，潜伏着，不露面。
But there are many kinds of crimes and many kinds of criminals.
但犯罪的种类有很多种，犯罪分子的种类也有很多种。
Take these crimes, ripped from today's headlines.
以今天的头条新闻中的这些犯罪为例。
Crime blotter.
犯罪记事本。
The Anacortes American , Anacortes, Washington.
美国阿纳科特斯酒店，阿纳科特斯，华盛顿。
A woman's persistence rewarded her with a shoplifting citation after she attempted to steal four 40-ounce bottles of beer, one at a time, from the Old Salt's convenience store on Skyline Way.
一名女子试图从 Skyline Way 的 Old Salt 便利店偷走四瓶 40 盎司的啤酒，一次偷一瓶，但她的坚持让她收到了入店行窃的罚单。
The owner of the store told police that the woman, who appeared intoxicated to begin with, entered the store and went to the beer cooler, where she selected a 40-ounce Lucky Lager and left without paying.
店主告诉警方，这名女子一开始看上去就喝醉了，她进入店内，走到啤酒柜前，选择了一杯 40 盎司的 Lucky Lager，然后没有付钱就离开了。
The owner quickly followed the woman and brought her back in the store.
店主赶紧尾随女子，将她带回店内。
Undaunted by her apprehension, the woman again returned to the cooler, selected another Lucky, and again walked out, closely followed by the owner, who once again returned her to the store.
女子并没有被惊慌所吓倒，她再次回到冰箱旁，又选了一件Lucky，然后再次走出去，店主紧随其后，再次将她送回了商店。
When the owner went to her phone to call police, the persistent woman again jumped to the beer cooler, this time selecting a 40-ounce bottle of Milwaukee's Best, and started drinking down the brew as she left the store.
当店主打电话报警时，这位执着的女士再次跳到啤酒柜前，这次选择了一瓶 40 盎司的 Milwaukee's Best，并在离开商店时开始喝啤酒。
The owner followed and once again returned the shoplifter to her store to wait for police.
店主尾随而至，再次将小偷送回店内等待警察。
Apparently still a little parched, the woman returned to the cooler for a fourth time, and grabbed a 40-ounce bottle of St. Ides.
显然还是有点口渴，这位女士第四次回到冷藏柜，抓起一瓶 40 盎司的 St. Ides。
This time, however, she didn't bother leaving the store and chugged it down where she stood.
然而这一次，她没有离开商店，而是就地把它吞下去了。
The woman was cited for third degree theft, and then taken home and turned over to her husband.
该女子被指控犯有三级盗窃罪，随后被带回家交给她的丈夫。
Stories about crime, no matter how simple, are a kind of snapshot of someone's life and their problems at a certain moment.
有关犯罪的故事，无论多么简单，都是某人生活及其在某个时刻遇到的问题的快照。
Through our crimes, we express who we are.
通过我们的罪行，我们表达了我们是谁。
Crime blotter.
犯罪记事本。
The Anacortes American , Anacortes, Washington.
美国阿纳科特斯酒店，阿纳科特斯，华盛顿。
Police arrested a 22-year-old Anacortes man Saturday morning, July 11, for causing a disturbance after he allegedly hurled potato salad at kids attending a festival, and, in the presence of a police officer, threatened to kill the operator of an inflatable obstacle course.
7 月 11 日星期六早上，警方逮捕了一名 22 岁的阿纳科特斯男子，原因是他向参加节日的孩子们投掷土豆沙拉，并在警察在场的情况下威胁要杀死充气障碍训练场的操作员。
The man told police he was upset because the festival, which started at 10:00 AM, was disrupting his sleep.
该男子告诉警方，他很不安，因为上午 10:00 开始的节日扰乱了他的睡眠。
The man was booked into Skagit County Jail on a charge of disorderly conduct.
该男子因行为不检被关进斯卡吉特县监狱。
Today on our radio program, stories about crime and the many varying reasons for committing crimes.
今天，我们的广播节目播放有关犯罪的故事以及犯罪的多种不同原因。
Each of the people on today's show chose a crime that is particular to him or her.
今天节目中的每个人都选择了他或她特有的犯罪行为。
And it's actually impossible to imagine any of them committing the crimes that the others committed.
实际上无法想象他们中的任何一个人会犯下其他人所犯下的罪行。
When we choose to break the law, we choose carefully.
当我们选择违法时，我们会谨慎选择。
It's as much a Rorschach test as anything in our lives.
这就像我们生活中的任何事情一样是罗夏墨迹测试。
Act One of our program today, Your Good Girl's Gonna Go Bad, the story of the kind of criminal who somehow believes, through all her crimes, that she's a good person with good intentions.
我们今天节目的第一幕，《你的好女孩要变坏了》，讲述了这样一种罪犯的故事，她在所有的罪行中不知何故相信自己是一个有着良好意图的好人。
Act Two, You'll Pay, a man who says that part of the thrill of robbing banks is the pleasure of scaring people.
第二幕，你会付出代价，一个人说抢劫银行的刺激之一就是吓唬别人的乐趣。
Act Three, Grandma Takes a Fall.
第三幕，奶奶摔倒了。
Her kids don't know.
她的孩子们不知道。
Her grandkids don't know.
她的孙子们不知道。
But hanging around with a bunch of old people at the senior citizens center turns out to be much less interesting than going out and stealing.
但在老年中心和一群老人混在一起，却远不如出去偷窃有趣。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, Your Good Girl's Gonna Go Bad.
第一幕，你的好女孩要变坏了。
When she was 21, Julia Sweeney moved from Spokane, Washington, to Los Angeles to follow a dream, a dream so many people have, of landing a job in accounting.
21 岁时，朱莉娅·斯威尼 (Julia Sweeney) 从华盛顿州斯波坎搬到洛杉矶，追寻一个梦想，一个很多人的梦想，即找到一份会计工作。
She had a fresh, new accounting degree from the University of Washington.
她从华盛顿大学获得了全新的会计学位。
But the dream accounting job that she had been promised at MGM Studios fell through.
但米高梅影业向她许诺的梦想会计工作却落空了。
And she ended up working as an assistant bartender at a downtown hotel, meaning at various parties and events in the hotel, she sold tickets for drinks.
她最终在市中心的一家酒店担任助理调酒师，这意味着在酒店的各种聚会和活动中，她出售饮料的门票。
And then customers would carry these tickets over to the real bartenders, who were all young, African American men, and not deemed trustworthy enough to handle cash themselves.
然后，顾客会将这些门票交给真正的调酒师，他们都是年轻的非裔美国男性，被认为不够值得信赖，无法自己处理现金。
Among other things, this turned out to be a bad piece of judgment on the part of hotel management.
除此之外，这对酒店管理层来说是一个错误的判断。
Julia estimates that she herself stole between $10,000 and $15,000 in cash in this job, though she started as an honest employee.
朱莉娅估计，她自己在这份工作中偷了 10,000 至 15,000 美元现金，尽管她一开始是一名诚实的员工。
I started out very conscientiously.
我一开始就非常认真。
And there was some accounting involved, because you would write down the number of the first ticket and the number of the last ticket.
这涉及到一些会计工作，因为你会记下第一张票的号码和最后一张票的号码。
And then you had to have the amount of money for the amount of tickets you sold.
然后你必须有足够的钱来支付你售出的门票数量。
And I had--
我有——
Did you actually think that at the time, well, there is some accounting involved in this?
您当时是否真的认为这涉及到一些会计？
Was that a thought?
这是一个想法吗？
Yeah, actually I did.
是的，实际上我做到了。
I thought, well, I like numbers.
我想，好吧，我喜欢数字。
Now, I'm such a different person than the person I was who liked numbers, that it's hard for me to even believe I ever had that thought.
现在，我与以前喜欢数字的人截然不同，我什至很难相信我曾经有过这样的想法。
But yes, at the time, I was looking forward to the number part of it.
但是，是的，当时我很期待其中的数字部分。
So I had three different kinds of tickets.
所以我有三种不同的门票。
I had beer and wine tickets, I had soft drink tickets, and I had mixed drink tickets.
我有啤酒和葡萄酒的票，有软饮料的票，还有混合饮料的票。
And they were like $2.75 and $2.50 and $1.25 or something.
它们的价格大约是 2.75 美元、2.50 美元和 1.25 美元之类的。
And they were different colors.
而且它们的颜色不同。
And so I started selling these tickets.
所以我开始卖这些票。
And it was just many, many hours of sitting at a card table.
这只是在牌桌上坐了很多很多个小时。
And people would come up, and you'd just make change and sell tickets.
人们会过来，你只需找零并卖票即可。
And well, to me, what started it was that they wouldn't pay for my parking at the hotel while I worked.
好吧，对我来说，事情的开始是他们在我工作期间不支付我在酒店的停车费。
Well, it was $3.00.
嗯，是 3 美元。
But still, it made me mad that they wouldn't pay the $3.00 for the parking.
但他们不付 3 美元的停车费还是让我很生气。
So I justified taking $3.00 every time I worked because I thought they should pay for parking.
所以我每次工作时收取 3 美元是合理的，因为我认为他们应该支付停车费。
You felt like an injustice had been done.
你感觉好像受到了不公正的对待。
And you were just righting a wrong.
而你只是在纠正一个错误。
Yes.
是的。
Ira Glass And that set you on the path of crime.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 这让你走上了犯罪之路。
Yes, it did.
是的，确实如此。
So I discovered that if you sold a ticket from inside the roll, for example, at the beginning of the roll, like if you pulled out the little cardboard insert that started the roll of tickets and pulled the ticket out of that part of it, that number on that ticket wouldn't be part of the numbers that you would be reporting.
所以我发现，如果你从卷内出售一张票，例如，在卷的开头，就像你拉出开始卷票的小纸板插件并将票从其中拉出，那么票上的数字不会成为你要报告的数字的一部分。
So I would just take one ticket from the middle and sell it.
所以我就从中间拿一张票然后卖掉。
So I'd just take $2.75.
所以我只需要 2.75 美元。
But it did require me having to pocket the $2.75 when I was in the room counting the money with all the other cashiers.
但当我在房间里和其他收银员一起数钱时，我确实需要将这 2.75 美元装进口袋。
So you're kind of in front of people.
所以你在人们面前有点。
So you have to be able to get that money in your pocket without them seeing.
所以你必须能够在他们看不见的情况下把钱放进你的口袋里。
So I had to learn how to do that, which actually was very easy.
所以我必须学习如何做到这一点，这实际上非常简单。
How do you do it?
你怎么做？
Julia Sweeney You just wait till no one's looking or just dumb things, like you cough or look the other way, and then you put $2.75 in your pocket.
朱莉娅·斯威尼（Julia Sweeney） 你只要等到没人看或者只是发生愚蠢的事情，比如你咳嗽或看向别处，然后你就把 2.75 美元放进你的口袋里。
But then, I was working long shifts that were like eight hours.
但那时我的轮班时间很长，大约八个小时。
And I would get hungry.
我会饿的。
And I didn't have enough time to leave the hotel.
我没有足够的时间离开酒店。
And they didn't provide a meal.
而且他们不提供饭菜。
So I felt it was their responsibility to buy me lunch.
所以我觉得他们有责任给我买午餐。
So I thought, well, maybe I'll just take six more dollars' worth.
所以我想，好吧，也许我再拿六美元就可以了。
OK, it's all a blur now, where it went from $6 to, oh, $500.
好吧，现在一切都模糊了，它从 6 美元涨到了 500 美元。
But somehow, it just started increasing and increasing, because I started taking a little more and a little more.
但不知何故，它开始越来越多，因为我开始服用越来越多的东西。
And then, things would happen like, oh, my car insurance would be due, and I was like $80 short.
然后，就会发生这样的事情，哦，我的汽车保险到期了，但我还差 80 美元。
The thing that, looking back on it, is interesting to me is that I started getting really high from it.
回想起来，令我感兴趣的是，我开始变得非常兴奋。
I would get a huge rush when I left the hotel and knew that I was safe with the money.
当我离开酒店并知道我带着钱很安全时，我会非常匆忙。
And I can honestly say I've never really had that particular feeling of high again since I did that.
老实说，自从我这样做以来，我再也没有真正感受到那种特殊的兴奋感。
And then I started doing really kind of nutty things where I would increase the danger, like I was flirting with getting caught or flirting with the danger of it.
然后我开始做一些真正疯狂的事情，这会增加危险，就像我正在与被抓住或与它的危险调情一样。
For example, I stopped parking at the hotel, and I purposely-- and this is like downtown LA, so it's a little scary and empty at night.
例如，我在酒店停车，我故意——这就像洛杉矶市中心，所以晚上有点可怕和空旷。
And I would purposely park my car on the street under a tunnel, like seven blocks away with no streetlights.
我会故意把车停在隧道下的街道上，距离七个街区远，没有路灯。
And then I would have like a couple hundred bucks in my pocket.
然后我的口袋里就会有几百块钱了。
And I would come out, and I would run as fast as I humanly could, for me, to my car.
我会出来，然后尽我所能，以最快的速度跑向我的车。
And I'd be drenched in sweat and as high as I've ever felt in my entire life.
我会浑身大汗，感受到我一生中从未有过的高度。
Was it just like, I'll do the riskiest possible thing I could do?
是不是就像，我会做我能做的最危险的事情？
I think it was that I got really high from feeling like I was in danger.
我认为我因为感觉自己处于危险之中而变得非常兴奋。
And I kept putting myself in more danger because it was so exciting.
我不断地将自己置于更加危险的境地，因为这太令人兴奋了。
The hairs on the back my neck would be sticking up as I would leave the hotel.
当我离开酒店时，我脖子后面的汗毛都会竖起来。
And sweat would be running down my back, and I'd be shaking.
汗水会从我的背上流下来，我会发抖。
But it was like getting away with it.
但这就像逃脱了它。
You got away with it.
你侥幸逃脱了。
Oh, and then I would drive home.
哦，然后我就开车回家。
And often, I'd drive home at 2:00 or 3:00, 4:00 in the morning.
通常，我会在凌晨 2:00 或 3:00、4:00 开车回家。
And there would be, oftentimes, policemen chasing people along the road.
而且经常会有警察沿路追人。
I would drive down Sixth Avenue home.
我会沿着第六大道开车回家。
And lots of times, like most of the time, someone would be getting arrested.
很多时候，就像大多数时候一样，有人会被捕。
And it all felt very intense and exciting to me.
这一切让我感觉非常强烈和令人兴奋。
I was in the big city, and I was part of everything.
我在大城市，我是一切的一部分。
And I had this money, and I'd taken it.
我有这笔钱，我拿走了它。
And I was driving down the street, and there were cops right there.
我开车沿着街道行驶，那里就有警察。
At its highest point, how much would you take a night?
在最高点，你会花多少钱一晚？
My biggest night was $1,000.
我最大的一晚是 1,000 美元。
Ira Glass And when you were taking that much, how would you pocket $1,000?
Ira Glass 如果你拿了那么多钱，你怎么能把 1,000 美元装进口袋呢？
Well, that doesn't take up that much room.
嗯，这并不占用那么多空间。
But isn't it a big wad of $1 and $5 bills?
但这不是一大叠 1 美元和 5 美元的钞票吗？
No, no, I would take the bigger bills.
不，不，我会接受更大的钞票。
Oh, my god.
我的天啊。
I'm in a confessional.
我在忏悔室里。
And you're Father [?
你是父亲[？
McGrann.
麦克格兰。
?]
？]
But I'd know that I was getting reckless.
但我知道我变得鲁莽了。
I was taking too much.
我服用太多了。
I would flirt with the moments that I could actually pocket it.
我会在我能真正把它装进口袋的时刻调情。
I would push the envelope of when it was really-- like at the beginning, it would be $3, and I would make sure it was totally safe.
我会挑战极限，就像一开始那样，它会是 3 美元，而且我会确保它是完全安全的。
And then 10 months later, it would be like $300.
10 个月后，大约是 300 美元。
I remember thinking, I could pocket money while my supervisor's staring at me, and they'll never notice it.
我记得我当时想，我可以在主管盯着我的时候把钱装进口袋，而他们永远不会注意到。
I'm that good.
我就是这么好
And did you do that?
你这样做了吗？
Julia Sweeney I don't know if I did it that blatantly.
朱莉娅·斯威尼（Julia Sweeney） 我不知道我是否公然这么做了。
But I definitely was doing it in front of other people where they weren't noticing it.
但我确实是在其他人面前做的，而他们却没有注意到。
Then I started to realize that that's exactly when you do it.
然后我开始意识到这正是你这样做的时候。
It's when people would never think anyone would do that.
那时人们绝不会认为有人会这样做。
That's when you do it.
那就是你这样做的时候。
You do it right in front of their eyes.
你就在他们眼前做这件事。
You do it while you're talking to them and you're counting out money.
你在与他们交谈并数钱时这样做。
But I justified it because I'd think, I'm not buying drugs.
但我证明这是合理的，因为我想，我不会购买毒品。
I'm not buying drugs.
我不买毒品。
You know why other people steal?
你知道为什么别人偷东西吗？
To buy drugs, which is disgusting.
去买毒品，这很恶心。
You know what I use this for?
你知道我用这个做什么吗？
My rent and car insurance, and my student loan.
我的租金和汽车保险，以及我的学生贷款。
To me, it meant that I was being honest and good with the money.
对我来说，这意味着我对钱很诚实并且善于利用。
It's not like I was paying some drug dealer for drugs.
这不像是我付钱给毒贩购买毒品。
Like somehow, that made it OK.
不知何故，这一切都顺利了。
I don't know why, but somehow, I can imagine that at the height of this, you would be somebody who would actually find herself giving away some of her stolen money to charity.
我不知道为什么，但不知何故，我可以想象，在这个最严重的时候，你会发现自己实际上把一些偷来的钱捐给了慈善机构。
Did that happen?
有这样的事发生吗？
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Well, first of all, I was going to mass every Sunday and making-- I think I was giving them $50 to $100, or something, a time.
嗯，首先，我每周日都会去参加弥撒——我想我一次会给他们 50 到 100 美元，或者其他什么。
Oh, and I'm telling you, I would not miss mass one Sunday while I was doing this.
哦，我告诉你，当我这样做的时候，我不会错过某个周日的弥撒。
It made you go to mass more, the fact that you were stealing?
你偷窃的事实让你更多地去做弥撒？
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Well, because, for one, I got a high off of being able to put so much in the money container thing.
嗯，因为，一方面，我因为能够在钱罐里放这么多东西而感到高兴。
I really felt good about it.
我真的感觉很好。
That's sick.
那是病了。
Julia Sweeney It's really sick.
朱莉娅·斯威尼 真的病了。
But then, I felt-- first of all, I liked being around God.
但后来，我觉得——首先，我喜欢和上帝在一起。
And at that time, I felt like being around God meant being in church.
那时，我觉得在上帝身边就意味着在教堂里。
And I didn't really-- OK.
我并没有真的——好吧。
I'm almost as if I'm talking about someone who is so far away from me, they're not me.
我几乎就像在谈论一个离我很远的人，他们不是我。
But I didn't really think of it as a sin at the time.
但当时我并没有真正认为这是一种罪过。
I thought of it as an opportunity.
我认为这是一个机会。
Almost like God had given me this opportunity.
几乎就像上帝给了我这个机会一样。
And what was I going to do, not take the opportunity?
如果不抓住这个机会我该怎么办？
I think it was really potent for me when I was in mass because here I was with God, and I was giving money.
我认为当我参加弥撒时，这对我来说真的很有效，因为我在这里与上帝在一起，而且我在捐钱。
It was like, so see, God?
就像，所以看到了吗，上帝？
Here, you get your own cut.
在这里，你可以得到自己的剪辑。
It was that we were thrown in together.
就是我们被扔到了一起。
It was almost like, if the only person who knows I'm doing this is God and me, we have a pretty intimate relationship going on right now.
就好像，如果唯一知道我在做这件事的人是上帝和我，那么我们现在就有一种非常亲密的关系。
And it's very, very intimate and personal.
这是非常非常亲密和个人化的。
And it's between me and God.
这是我和上帝之间的事情。
And that made me feel, at that time, in my 22-year-old brain, like I was having a close relationship with a deity, which now I think is insane.
这让我当时 22 岁的大脑里感觉自己与神有着密切的关系，现在我认为这很疯狂。
But at the time, that all made sense to me.
但当时，这一切对我来说都是有意义的。
I have to say, you saying this, it explains this thing that, when I've seen it in fiction, when I've seen it in the Godfather movies, I have never understood and I just assumed was a literary device or something, the notion that these mobsters would commit these crimes, but then consider themselves to be Catholic guys, and go to mass and this and that.
我不得不说，你这么说，它解释了这一点，当我在小说中看到它时，当我在教父电影中看到它时，我从来没有理解过，我只是假设这是一种文学手段或其他东西，这些暴徒会犯下这些罪行，但随后认为自己是天主教徒，参加弥撒等等。
I was never able to understand.
我一直无法理解。
And I always thought, oh, well, that's just made up, that part.
我一直想，哦，好吧，那部分只是编造的。
No. Oh, I understand that completely.
不，哦，我完全明白。
And also, if you had gotten into a discussion with me about the Catholic church at that time, I would defend it to the end.
而且，如果你当时和我讨论天主教会，我会捍卫它到底。
It was almost like, that's my family you're talking about.
就好像，你说的就是我的家人。
I had much more allegiance to the church while I was doing bad things.
当我做坏事的时候，我对教会更加忠诚。
But you know what is really even more sick about my experience?
但你知道我的经历中真正更恶心的是什么吗？
I felt like God was a little bit of an accomplice with me.
我觉得上帝有点像我的同谋。
I didn't feel like I needed God to say it was OK.
我觉得我不需要上帝说这没问题。
I almost felt like God was my pimp or something.
我几乎感觉上帝是我的皮条客什么的。
I had to go pay God off.
我必须去还钱给上帝。
That was a weird thing I was doing in my head then.
当时我脑子里正在做一件奇怪的事情。
And see, the big night, that's when I took the $1,000-- I can't believe I'm saying-- well, I was in Spokane for Christmas, visiting my family.
看，那个重要的夜晚，就在我拿了 1,000 美元的时候——我简直不敢相信我在说——嗯，我在斯波坎过圣诞节，探望我的家人。
And I had to get back for New Year's Eve, because New Year's Eve was the biggest night of the year for alcohol sales.
我必须在除夕夜回来，因为除夕夜是一年中酒类销售量最大的夜晚。
That would be my biggest chance to make the most money.
那将是我赚最多钱的最大机会。
There would be--
会有——
At the hotel, yeah.
在酒店，是的。
Julia Sweeney Yeah.
朱莉娅·斯威尼 是的。
We'd probably count $60,000 in cash, at night, at the hotel on a New Year's Eve.
除夕之夜，我们可能会在酒店里清点 60,000 美元的现金。
So there was so much chance for the money not to be noticed.
所以这笔钱很可能不被注意到。
And I was in Spokane, and there was this terrible storm.
我在斯波坎，发生了一场可怕的风暴。
And the airport closed down.
机场也关闭了。
And it was frozen.
它被冻结了。
And no one was able to get out of the city.
而且没有人能够离开这座城市。
And they didn't even want people on the roads.
他们甚至不希望路上有人。
And my parents said, "Oh, well, I guess you're just going to have to stay with us for New Year's Eve." And I said, "No, I have to work on New Year's Eve." And they said, "Well, call the hotel and tell them you can't make it." And I said, "No, I've got to make it.
我父母说：“哦，好吧，我想你只能和我们一起过除夕夜了。”我说：“不行，我必须在除夕夜工作。”他们说：“好吧，给酒店打电话，告诉他们你来不了。”我说：“不，我必须成功。
I've got to make it." And they said, "Well, but you can't make it.
我必须做到。”他们说：“好吧，但你做不到。
The roads are bad.
路况不好。
No planes are leaving the city."
没有飞机离开这座城市。”
And I got on a Greyhound bus that took, I think, 15 hours to get from Spokane to Seattle, so I could get on a plane to get back to LA, so I could work on New year's Eve.
我乘坐灰狗巴士从斯波坎到西雅图需要 15 个小时，这样我就可以乘飞机返回洛杉矶，这样我就可以在除夕夜工作。
And to me, that was when I realized it was out of control.
对我来说，那是我意识到事情已经失控的时候。
Because my feeling of having to get there-- It wasn't even about the money that much then, because I didn't even need the money that much then.
因为我觉得必须到达那里——那时甚至与钱无关，因为那时我什至不需要钱。
It was more like, the big score's going down.
更像是，大比分正在下降。
I've got to get there.
我必须赶到那里。
I've got to get there.
我必须赶到那里。
Damn it, get me on a-- I'll walk to Seattle, but I can not miss this night.
该死的，让我走吧——我会步行去西雅图，但我不能错过这个夜晚。
And of course, I was getting paid minimum wage.
当然，我得到的是最低工资。
So it seemed absurd to everyone I knew that I would go to those kinds of extremes to get back, so I could go to a job where I got paid $3.50 an hour or something.
因此，对于我认识的每个人来说，我会采取这种极端的方式回来，这样我就可以找到一份每小时 3.50 美元的工作，这似乎很荒谬。
Julia Sweeney is a writer and actress, who says she stopped stealing in 1984, after the whole thing started to make her sick.
朱莉娅·斯威尼 (Julia Sweeney) 是一位作家兼演员，她说，自从 1984 年整件事情开始让她感到恶心之后，她就不再偷窃了。
Then she quit her job.
然后她辞去了工作。
She hasn't stolen since.
从那以后她就再没有偷过东西。
She wants you to know that she understands that stealing is wrong.
她想让你知道她明白偷窃是错误的。
Under California law, the statute of limitations for her crime, grand larceny, ran out in 1987.
根据加州法律，她犯下的重大盗窃罪的诉讼时效已于 1987 年到期。
The CD of her one-woman show, Letting Go of God, is out this month.
她的独女秀《Letting Go of God》的 CD 将于本月发行。
[MUSIC - "SATAN IS REAL" BY THE LOUVIN BROTHERS]
[音乐 - 卢文兄弟的《撒旦是真实的》]
Act Two, You'll Pay.
第二幕，你会付出代价。
Some criminals do not see themselves as basically good people getting away with something bad.
有些罪犯并不认为自己是好人，做了坏事却能逃脱惩罚。
Some people do not believe that God is on their side when they commit their crimes.
有些人在犯罪时不相信上帝站在他们一边。
They have a point they want to make about God, but that is not the precise point they are trying to make.
他们想要表达关于上帝的观点，但这并不是他们想要表达的确切观点。
We have this story from reporter Marilyn Snell about an ex-con who lives in Oakland, California.
我们收到了记者 Marilyn Snell 的报道，讲述了一位住在加利福尼亚州奥克兰市的有前科犯的故事。
Joe Loya spent two years in prison for grand theft auto, strong arm robbery, and bounced checks.
乔·洛亚 (Joe Loya) 因汽车盗窃、强盗抢劫和空头支票入狱两年。
He did another seven for bank robbery.
他又因抢劫银行而犯了七起罪。
He robbed a lot of banks.
他抢劫了很多银行。
The official number is 24.
官方数字是24。
When I was arrested, they said, "This is a bank robber who robbed 24 banks." But I know I counted once and lost count at 30 or 32.
当我被捕时，他们说：“这是一个银行抢劫犯，抢劫了24家银行。”但我知道我数过一次，数到 30 或 32 时就数不清了。
I was not born with a criminal mind.
我并非生来就有犯罪心理。
I don't think anybody is born with a criminal mind.
我认为没有人天生就有犯罪心理。
I was raised in a very religious environment.
我是在一个非常宗教的环境中长大的。
My father was eventually a minister.
我父亲最终成为一名牧师。
My parents got married when they were 16.
我的父母16岁时结婚了。
My mother was pregnant.
我母亲怀孕了。
And my dad, real early, decided that he wanted to serve God.
我父亲很早就决定要侍奉上帝。
So he started teaching himself Greek and Hebrew.
于是他开始自学希腊语和希伯来语。
And he also learned Latin along the way, all these languages so that he could interpret the scriptures.
一路上他还学习了拉丁语，所有这些语言，以便他能够解释经文。
We were a family of the text.
我们是文字一家人。
Everything in our life, every morality, every decision had to somehow be validated by scripture.
我们生活中的一切、每一个道德、每一个决定都必须以某种方式得到圣经的验证。
I read the Bible from cover to cover every year, because there was this program my dad had where every day, we read a little bit of the New Testament and Old Testament.
我每年都会从头到尾读圣经，因为我爸爸有一个节目，我们每天都会读一点新约和旧约。
And by the end of the year, the entire Bible was read.
到年底，整本圣经都读完了。
My parents loved God so much.
我的父母非常爱上帝。
My mother was this little Sunday school teacher at the church.
我的母亲是教堂主日学的小老师。
So that in my baby book, my mother writes when I was-- I was born August 11, 1961.
因此，我母亲在我的婴儿书中写道，我出生于 1961 年 8 月 11 日。
And three years and four months later, on November 3, 1964, my mother wrote that I "accepted Christ as his Savior." And she wrote, [?
三年零四个月后，即 1964 年 11 月 3 日，我母亲写道，我“接受了基督作为他的救主”。她写道，[？
"Faith Gurlack ?] led him to the Lord." In the baby book again, when I'm four years old, the next year, 1965, October 10, on a Sunday, she said that, "Joey feels a call to the missionary field, to tell the parents and preach in India the Gospel.
“信仰古拉克？]带领他归向主。”再次在婴儿书里，当我四岁的时候，第二年，1965年，10月10日，一个星期日，她说：“乔伊感受到了传教士的召唤，去告诉父母并在印度传播福音。
He is four years old," she wrote.
他四岁了，”她写道。
Joe's mother died when he was nine.
乔九岁时，他的母亲去世了。
His brother Paul was seven.
他的兄弟保罗七岁。
Their father was suddenly alone with two young sons, not much money, and zero coping skills.
他们的父亲突然独自一人带着两个年幼的儿子，钱不多，应对能力为零。
It was around this time that he began to get violent with his boys.
大约在这个时候，他开始对他的孩子们使用暴力。
My father, regular, when he would lose his temper, he would hit us severely and beat us.
我的父亲平时一发脾气就狠狠地打我们、打我们。
And then afterwards, he would cry-- like an alcoholic in a way, even though he wasn't-- but he would cry and beg our forgiveness.
然后，他会哭泣——在某种程度上就像一个酒鬼，尽管他不是——但他会哭泣并请求我们的原谅。
It would be this heavy emotional scene, where we'd cry and we'd forgive him.
这将是一个沉重的情感场景，我们会哭泣，我们会原谅他。
And we'd go to him, we love you Daddy.
我们会去找他，我们爱你，爸爸。
Don't cry.
别哭。
God forgives.
上帝宽恕了。
And we'd pray.
我们会祈祷。
And everything would be-- supposed to be fine and dandy.
一切都会——应该是美好而美好的。
And then it would happen again.
然后这种事又会发生。
When my dad finally got a church when I was about 12 years old, I couldn't understand how the people in those pews could believe in this man, when he was obviously, to me, such a fraud.
当我大约 12 岁的时候，我父亲终于得到了一座教堂，我无法理解那些长椅上的人怎么会相信这个人，而他对我来说显然是一个骗子。
And that's when I began to doubt.
就在那时我开始怀疑。
I began to doubt the flock, the wisdom of the flock.
我开始怀疑羊群，怀疑羊群的智慧。
I was being raised by a deceptive person.
我是由一个欺骗性的人抚养长大的。
So I became sort of deceptive.
所以我变得有点欺骗性。
And when I was in eighth grade, I was able to jimmy the lock in a cabinet that he had in his bedroom.
当我八年级时，我能够撬开他卧室柜子的锁。
And I would pilfer dollars out of every offering envelope that-- they kept the offering in there.
我会从他们存放捐款的每个募捐信封中偷走美元。
And I would take my friends to go eat at Foster's Freeze.
我会带我的朋友去福斯特冷冻店吃饭。
I would take a bunch of friends over there.
我会带一群朋友去那里。
We'd get ice cream, chips, we'd get burgers and fries and--
我们会吃冰淇淋、薯条、汉堡和薯条，还有——
Courtesy of the Lord?
是主的恩惠吗？
Joe Loya Courtesy of God.
乔·洛亚 感谢上帝。
This picnic is on God.
这次野餐是上帝的事。
Thank you, God.
谢谢你，上帝。
Amen.
阿门。
And he started dating Susie.
他开始和苏西约会。
And the same pattern began, where she thought he was a spiritual man.
同样的模式开始了，她认为他是一个有灵性的人。
I despised that.
我鄙视这一点。
I despised that he could get away with it.
我鄙视他能逃脱惩罚。
And what I did is, I went to this woman, and said, "Hey, listen, my dad beats us.
我所做的是，我去找这个女人，说：“嘿，听着，我爸爸打我们。
Run far and fast as you can." She took us out to dinner one Sunday evening.
尽可能跑得又远又快。”一个周日晚上她带我们出去吃饭。
And in my bravado, I said, "You know what?
我虚张声势地说：“你知道吗？
Next time he does it, I swear, I'm going to stab him." And I held up a steak knife.
下次他再这么做，我发誓，我要刺伤他。”我举起一把牛排刀。
And so a week later, within a week, he had sensed, picked up from Susie, that Susie was starting to pull away.
所以一周后，不到一周，他从苏西那里感觉到，苏西开始抽离。
And he assumed that maybe I had told her something.
他认为也许我告诉了她一些事情。
And so he called me into the kitchen.
于是他叫我进厨房。
He says, "Hey, listen." He played this trick on me.
他说：“嘿，听着。”他对我玩了这个把戏。
He said, "Hey, I've got something to say.
他说：“嘿，我有话要说。
You told Susie that I've been a little violent with you guys and stuff.
你告诉苏西我对你们有些暴力之类的。
It's not a problem.
这不是问题。
I already know you told her.
我已经知道你告诉过她了。
She told me you told her that.
她告诉我是你告诉她的。
She was kind of concerned.
她有点担心。
So it's no big deal, but you did, didn't you?
所以这没什么大不了的，但你做到了，不是吗？
I just wanted to see if you'll admit to it." It was the first and last time I ever confessed to a crime.
我只是想看看你愿不愿意承认。”这是我第一次也是最后一次承认犯罪。
I see him saying that everything's fine, everything's going to be all right.
我看到他说一切都很好，一切都会好起来的。
And I want to believe that everything's going to be all right.
我愿意相信一切都会好起来的。
I want to believe that he's going to take the high road.
我愿意相信他会走上正路。
I want to believe in forgiveness, too.
我也想相信宽恕。
I want to believe that things can be all right.
我愿意相信一切都会好起来的。
And as soon as I tell him, "Yeah, OK, I did," he throws a teapot at me, chases me around.
当我告诉他“是的，好吧，我做到了”，他就向我扔了一个茶壶，追着我跑。
And he proceeds to beat me, so that by that evening, in the hospital, they would X-ray me and find that I had a broken wrist, fractured elbow, and broken rib.
他继续殴打我，所以到了那天晚上，在医院里，他们会给我拍X光，发现我手腕骨折，肘部骨折，肋骨骨折。
At one point, he stops beating me.
有一次，他不再打我了。
And he left the house.
然后他就离开了家。
He went down to 7-Eleven.
他去了7-11。
We didn't have a phone at the time.
我们当时没有电话。
He went down to 7-Eleven down the block, about a mile away, calls Susie, breaks up with her, and comes back home.
他去了街区另一头大约一英里外的 7-11 便利店，给苏西打电话，和她分手，然后回家了。
But it was during that time, in this state of concussion that I had-- what was later diagnosed as a massive concussion-- I'm sitting there in a daze.
但正是在那段时间，在我的脑震荡状态下——后来被诊断为大规模脑震荡——我坐在那儿发呆。
But I know enough to say, "Paul, go to the bathroom.
但我知道足以说：“保罗，去趟洗手间。
Lock yourself in.
把自己锁在里面。
Don't come out until I say."
在我说之前不要出来。”
I walked to the kitchen.
我走到厨房。
I pulled out a knife.
我掏出一把刀。
I went back to the bedroom.
我回到卧室。
I sat on my bed.
我坐在床上。
And I put the knife underneath the pillow.
我把刀放在枕头下面。
And I waited for him, for my father to come home.
我等他，等我父亲回家。
And he did.
他做到了。
He came in the front door, walked over to my room.
他从前门进来，走到我的房间。
And he had this maniacal look on his face when he walked to my door.
当他走到我家门口时，他脸上露出了疯狂的表情。
He looked at me.
他看着我。
Then he looked at the other side of the room.
然后他看向房间的另一边。
And he saw weights there.
他在那里看到了重物。
He looked at me again.
他又看了我一眼。
And I could tell, something's going on in that demented mind of his.
我看得出来，他那疯狂的头脑里正在发生一些事情。
And sure enough, he walks over to the weights, and he begins to disassemble them.
果然，他走到重物面前，开始拆卸它们。
They were cement weights that had plastic around them.
它们是周围有塑料的水泥重物。
And I have no clue what he's going to do.
而且我不知道他要做什么。
This is a new level of improvised savagery even for him.
即使对他来说，这也是一种新的即兴野蛮行为。
But I wasn't about to find out what he was going to do with that, if he was going to hit me with the weights or with the bar.
但我并不打算知道他会用这个做什么，如果他要用哑铃或杠铃打我。
So what I did was, I pulled the knife out from underneath the pillow.
所以我所做的就是从枕头下面拔出刀。
I stood up.
我站了起来。
He said, "Put it away, put it away." And I continued to stay there.
他说：“收起来，收起来。”我继续留在那里。
He started walking at me.
他开始朝我走来。
And I could tell-- he started demanding that I put it down, like, "Put down the knife, put down the knife." And I lunged at him.
我看得出来——他开始要求我放下它，就像，“放下刀，放下刀。”我冲向他。
And when I did, he put up his left arm.
当我这样做时，他举起了左臂。
But I was able to stab him in the neck.
但我能够刺伤他的脖子。
And I came down hard.
我重重地摔倒了。
And I started twisting it, trying to break it off in his neck.
我开始扭转它，试图将它从他的脖子上折断。
And he screamed.
他尖叫起来。
And he grabbed his neck.
并且抓住了他的脖子。
And he said, "You killed me.
他说：“你杀了我。
You killed me." And he fell to the ground.
你杀了我。”然后他就倒在了地上。
And I remember that I stood over him.
我记得我站在他旁边。
And I said something.
我说了一些话。
I don't quite remember the verbatim.
我不太记得原话了。
But it was essentially, "You did this to yourself," in the sense that you brought it on yourself.
但它本质上是“你对自己做了这件事”，意思是你自己造成的。
Almost like a biblical thing, this is what your sin hath wrought kind of idea.
几乎就像圣经中的事情一样，这就是你的罪所造成的想法。
There's this great line from Auden, where he says, "I and the public know what all schoolchildren learn, those to whom evil is done do evil in return."
奥登有一句伟大的台词，他说：“我和公众都知道所有学童所学到的东西，受害人也会以恶报之。”
This is the man I feared the most in the world.
这是我在这个世界上最害怕的人。
After him was God.
在他之后就是上帝。
And when I knocked him off his pedestal, there was nobody who could replace him.
当我把他从神坛上推下来时，没有人可以取代他。
Not the police, not teachers, not politicians, nothing.
不是警察，不是老师，不是政客，什么都不是。
The only person I had to fear after I knocked my dad off was the heavens.
在我击倒了我的父亲之后，我唯一要害怕的人就是天堂。
And that was God.
那就是上帝。
And I couldn't see him.
而我却看不到他。
So that meant that I had primacy of my life on this planet.
所以这意味着我在这个星球上拥有生命的首要地位。
I became my own God here.
我在这里成为了自己的上帝。
I did not fear authority anymore.
我不再害怕权威了。
Joe's father survived the stabbing, but lost his sons to foster care for several months.
乔的父亲在刺伤中幸存下来，但他的两个儿子在寄养家庭中度过了几个月。
After Joe graduated from high school, he attended Bible college for a semester, but dropped out.
乔高中毕业后，在圣经学院学习了一个学期，但后来退学了。
He didn't want to work, so he supported himself by stealing from his friends.
他不想工作，就靠向朋友偷东西来养活自己。
After a while, he moved on to bigger targets.
过了一段时间，他转向了更大的目标。
He stole cars, passed fraudulent checks, and finally began robbing banks.
他偷汽车，通过欺诈支票，最后开始抢劫银行。
In 1988, after being released from a two-year prison sentence, he went on a 14-month-long bank robbing spree.
1988年，两年监禁刑满释放后，他进行了长达14个月的银行抢劫狂潮。
Well, I'd wake up and say, "I don't know what I want to do today.
好吧，我醒来后会说：“我不知道今天要做什么。
I just know I want to look good, and I want to go spend a lot of money.
我只知道我想要好看，我想要花很多钱。
And I want to have fun.
我想玩得开心。
Maybe I want to spend $10,000 today.
也许我今天想花 10,000 美元。
I want to go to Vegas.
我想去维加斯。
I want to fly all my friends someplace, buy them all nice clothes, and eat.
我想带我所有的朋友飞到某个地方，给他们买漂亮的衣服，然后吃饭。
That's $10,000 I'm going to lose.
我将损失 10,000 美元。
Maybe I should go rob a bank or two tomorrow."
也许明天我应该去抢劫一两家银行。”
So that was your notion of living from check to check?
这就是你靠支票谋生的想法吗？
My idea of living check to check was, I have $40,000 here.
我的生活支票的想法是，我这里有 40,000 美元。
That means it's going to be gone in three months.
这意味着三个月后它就会消失。
That was my idea, yeah.
这就是我的想法，是的。
Always under my bed in a gym bag.
总是放在我的床底下的健身包里。
$40,000 of smelly dough.
价值 40,000 美元的臭面团。
Money is very smelly.
钱很臭。
I was going to ask you this.
我正想问你这个。
Did you smell the money?
你闻到钱的味道了吗？
You can't not smell the money.
你不可能闻不到钱的味道。
Because you're intrigued by the fact that money is putrid.
因为你对金钱腐烂这一事实很感兴趣。
It's like-- I don't want to say it's disgusting-- It's like you smell the money, and you'll be like, "Is that you?" And you put your face in it.
就像——我不想说这很恶心——就像你闻到了钱的味道，你会说，“是你吗？”然后你把脸放进去。
And you're like, "Oh, yeah, it is you.
你会说，“哦，是的，是你。
You stink." It's disgusting.
你很臭。”那真令人恶心。
On my way to a bank, I'd have this conversation with my body, where my body would start to rebel naturally because it was frightened.
在去银行的路上，我会与我的身体进行这样的对话，我的身体会因为害怕而开始自然反抗。
It knew I was putting itself into harm's way.
它知道我正在将自己置于危险之中。
I always had a gun.
我一直有枪。
So I knew that there was a possibility of using the gun.
所以我知道有使用这把枪的可能性。
My stomach would get knotted.
我的胃会打结。
I'd feel like I had the runs.
我感觉自己好像在跑步。
I would start to shake.
我会开始颤抖。
I'd violently shake sometimes.
有时我会剧烈颤抖。
My hands almost want to bounce off the steering wheel.
我的手几乎想从方向盘上弹开。
If that couldn't stop me, then this intense wave of fatigue would come over me.
如果这还不能阻止我，那么强烈的疲劳感就会向我袭来。
And if I pulled over to the side of the road and I wanted to, I'm sure I could've just gone to sleep right away.
如果我想把车停在路边，我相信我可以马上去睡觉。
My body just wanted to shut down.
我的身体只想停止运转。
And when I pushed through that with my will, then this incredible calm would come over me.
当我用自己的意志克服困难时，这种难以置信的平静就会降临在我身上。
And that's when I was in control.
那是我掌控一切的时候。
I would walk in there, wait in line, get up to a teller and lean forward, speak very clearly but low.
我会走进去，排队等候，走到柜员面前，身体前倾，说话非常清楚，但声音很低。
And I would tell them that we have a bomb, I have a gun, and this is a bank robbery.
我会告诉他们我们有炸弹，我有枪，这是一起银行抢劫案。
Give me the money now.
现在就把钱给我。
And even though it was only me, I wanted to give the impression that, listen, the all-seeing eye of horrors is out there, kind of thing.
即使只有我一个人，我也想给人一种印象，听着，恐怖的全视之眼就在那里，之类的东西。
There's somebody behind me who sees you and sees me, and I have backup.
我身后有人看到你也看到我，我有后援。
And I came with that kind of confidence.
我带着这样的信心而来。
Asian women and black women were the most difficult to rob.
亚洲女性和黑人女性最难被抢劫。
What I thought about Asian women was, these are women who just came over from Vietnam.
我对亚洲女性的看法是，这些女性是刚从越南过来的。
And they saw bodies strewn all over the village.
他们看到村子里到处都是尸体。
They are not afraid of a little guy like me coming up without a weapon.
他们并不害怕像我这样没有武器的小家伙。
I thought that.
我是这么想的。
And then, with the black women, I felt like, these are women who talk to black men a certain way.
然后，对于黑人女性，我觉得这些女性以某种方式与黑人男性交谈。
There is this certain aggression between them, this, "You don't have a gun.
他们之间存在着某种攻击性，“你没有枪。
What are you going to do, reach across here and slap me?
你要做什么，伸手过来打我一巴掌？
Uh-uh.
呃呃。
I don't think so." I kind of got that feeling like, you're not going to do anything.
我不这么认为。”我有种感觉，你什么也做不了。
And that's when I had to-- it took too much work.
那时我不得不——这需要太多的工作。
I had to pretend like I was ready-- I put my hand real fiercely on the counter.
我必须假装我已经准备好了——我把手狠狠地放在柜台上。
And I'd say, "I'm coming.
我会说：“我来了。
Don't make me come over.
别逼我过来。
I'll shoot you." It was just way too much work.
我会开枪打死你。”工作量实在是太大了。
Who I found were the easiest to rob were these middle class white women who looked like their daughter and son just went off to college, and now they finally get to go to work again.
我发现最容易被抢劫的是这些中产阶级白人女性，她们的女儿和儿子看起来刚刚上大学，现在终于又可以去工作了。
And they decided to work from 1:00 to 3:00 every day at the bank, get a little money in, so they could buy their stuff for ceramics or something.
他们决定每天从1:00到3:00去银行工作，赚点钱，这样他们就可以买陶瓷之类的东西了。
They would always greet me very cheerfully.
他们总是很高兴地跟我打招呼。
And they were the easiest ones to rob.
而且他们是最容易被抢劫的。
In fact, a couple times, I was embarrassed at the ease.
事实上，有好几次，我都因为轻松而感到尴尬。
I'd say, "This is a robbery," to one woman.
我会对一位女士说：“这是一场抢劫”。
And she just looked down, opened the drawer, and started giving me the big bills first.
她只是低下头，打开抽屉，开始先给我大额钞票。
I didn't have to finish my spiel.
我不必说完我的长篇大论。
And I almost felt like, "Hey lady, you do this any faster, they're going to think we were in cahoots."
我几乎觉得，“嘿女士，你做得再快一点，他们会认为我们是串通一气的。”
To the tellers, what I felt I was introducing them to was the same notion of hazard that I had known as a child, which is, I was going through life fine.
对于出纳员来说，我觉得我向他们介绍的与我小时候所了解的危险概念是一样的，也就是说，我的生活过得很好。
Everything was going good for me.
一切对我来说都很顺利。
And all of a sudden, my mother's dead.
突然间，我母亲去世了。
Whoa, what happened here?
哇，这里发生了什么？
All of a sudden, my dad can't deal with his anger, and he's beating us.
突然，我爸爸无法控制自己的愤怒，他开始打我们。
Whoa, what's happening here?
哇，这里发生了什么事？
Life is not what we think it is.
生活并不是我们想象的那样。
And there are these violent intersections where, when your life intersects with hazard or contingency, it's something profound.
还有这些暴力的交叉点，当你的生活与危险或意外事件交叉时，这是一些深刻的事情。
And that's what I felt I was introducing them to.
这就是我觉得我正在向他们介绍的东西。
It's like, now you know.
就像，现在你知道了。
Now I can live off of your terror.
现在我可以靠你的恐惧生活了。
It's what I did to my father when I stabbed him and I heard him crying.
这就是我对我父亲所做的事，当时我刺伤了他，我听到他在哭。
I loved that.
我喜欢那个。
I said, "Now you know how I feel."
我说：“现在你知道我的感受了。”
Violence helped me recover a sense of my lost self.
暴力帮助我找回了迷失的自我。
I could look at somebody else and say, "Ha ha, you see.
我可以看着别人说：“哈哈，你看。
Now you're a fool.
现在你是个傻瓜。
You thought you could just go through life and everything was going to be nice if you behaved a certain way.
你以为只要你按照某种方式行事，你就可以度过一生，一切都会好起来的。
And look at, now you've met me.
瞧，现在你遇见了我。
And look at how frightened you are.
看看你有多害怕。
And now look at how frightened you're going to be forever.
现在看看你将永远感到多么害怕。
And this experience is not-- you're never going to recover from it." It was validating.
而这种经历并不是——你永远无法从中恢复过来。”它正在验证。
It made me feel like, this is the world I know.
这让我感觉，这就是我所知道的世界。
This is the way experience really is.
这才是真正的体验。
And now all I'm doing is educating people.
现在我所做的就是教育人们。
Joe Loya was released from prison in 1997.
乔·洛亚 (Joe Loya) 于 1997 年出狱。
He's gone through big changes since his days as a bank robber.
自从当银行抢劫犯以来，他经历了巨大的变化。
Now he's an editor at Pacific News Service .
现在他是太平洋新闻社的编辑。
He's married.
他结婚了。
At the wedding ceremony, Joe's father, who he's reconciled with, recited from the book of Corinthians, chapter 13, "Love is patient.
在婚礼上，乔的父亲（与他和解）背诵了《哥林多前书》第 13 章中的内容：“爱是恒久忍耐。
Love is kind.
爱是善良的。
Love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude.
爱不是嫉妒，不是自夸，不是傲慢，也不是粗鲁。
It does not insist on its own way.
它不坚持自己的方式。
It is not irritable or resentful.
它并不烦躁或怨恨。
It does not rejoice in wrongdoing."
它不喜欢做错事。”
Marilyn Snell is a reporter in San Francisco.
玛丽莲·斯内尔是旧金山的一名记者。
Joe Loya has published a memoir called The Man Who Outgrew His Prison Cell: Confessions of a Bank Robber.
乔·洛亚出版了一本回忆录，名为《监狱牢房长大的人：一名银行劫匪的自白》。
Coming up, they took Europe back from the Nazis.
接下来，他们从纳粹手中夺回了欧洲。
They raised the flag at Iwo Jima.
他们在硫磺岛升起了旗帜。
And they'll be damned if they're going to spend their golden years sitting around playing Pinochle.
如果他们要在玩皮诺克尔游戏中度过自己的黄金岁月，那他们就该死了。
Sticky fingers, wrinkled hands.
手指发粘，双手布满皱纹。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International when our program continues.
一分钟后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose a theme, invite a variety of people to take a whack at that theme with documentaries, interviews, performances, found tape, found documents, anything we can think of.
当然，在我们的节目中，我们每周都会选择一个主题，邀请各种各样的人通过纪录片、采访、表演、找到的磁带、找到的文件，以及我们能想到的任何东西来探讨这个主题。
Today's program, The Allure of Crime, how people express themselves and their personalities through the way they steal.
今天的节目《犯罪的诱惑》讲述了人们如何通过偷窃的方式表达自己和个性。
Let us begin the second half of our show as we began the first, with a review of criminal activity from around the nation, in this case, from Colorado, Washington state, and Georgia.
让我们开始节目的后半部分，就像我们开始第一部分一样，回顾全国各地的犯罪活动，在本例中是科罗拉多州、华盛顿州和佐治亚州。
Crime blotter.
犯罪记事本。
The Athens Daily News, Athens, Georgia.
雅典每日新闻，佐治亚州雅典。
A recent immigrant to Athens, whom police initially suspected of driving under the influence Wednesday, turned out to be merely unfamiliar with traffic laws, according to the Athens-Clarke county police report.
根据雅典-克拉克县警方的报告，一名最近来到雅典的移民周三被警方怀疑酒后驾车，结果证明他只是不熟悉交通法规。
A police officer spotted the man, 24, driving a white Pontiac Grand Prix on the Atlanta highway late Wednesday night, having trouble staying in one lane.
周三深夜，一名警察发现这名 24 岁的男子在亚特兰大高速公路上驾驶一辆白色庞蒂亚克大奖赛，在车道上行驶时遇到困难。
The officer turned on his lights and siren, and pursued the man, who did not stop, according to the report.
报道称，这名警官打开车灯和警报器，追赶该男子，但该男子没有停下来。
Police finally stopped the man on Epps Bridge Road, beside the Lowe's hardware store.
警察最终在埃普斯桥路劳氏五金店旁边拦住了这名男子。
The man explained to officers in broken English that he came to the US six months ago and had started driving a month ago.
该男子用蹩脚的英语向警察解释说，他六个月前来到美国，一个月前开始开车。
Officers noticed a card with written instructions on driving, explaining to put the key in the ignition, press the accelerator, and other basics, taped to the dashboard of the man's Pontiac.
警察注意到一张贴在该男子庞蒂亚克仪表板上的卡片，上面写着驾驶说明，解释了如何将钥匙插入点火装置、按下油门以及其他基本知识。
According to the report, the man told officers he did not know the light and siren of a police car signified that he was supposed to stop.
据报道，该男子告诉警察，他不知道警车的灯光和警报器表明他应该停下来。
The man was ticketed and released.
该男子被开罚单并被释放。
Crime blotter.
犯罪记事本。
The Pueblo Chieftain , Pueblo, Colorado.
普韦布洛酋长，科罗拉多州普韦布洛。
Mike Baca 37, was eating at Phil's Diner, 2225 Lake Avenue, about 2:30 AM Thursday, when he told police he asked William Baros for a cigarette.
周四凌晨 2:30 左右，37 岁的迈克·巴卡 (Mike Baca) 正在湖大道 2225 号的菲尔餐厅 (Phil's Diner) 吃饭，当时他告诉警方，他向威廉·巴罗斯 (William Baros) 要了一支烟。
And Baros became enraged.
巴罗斯勃然大怒。
"You want a cigarette?" Baros reportedly said.
“你想要一支烟吗？”据报道，巴罗斯说道。
"What kind of sucker do you think I am?" Baca said Baros then started to call him names and threw two sugar dispensers at him.
“你觉得我是什么样的傻瓜？”巴卡说，巴罗斯随后开始辱骂他，并向他扔了两个糖分配器。
They shattered when they hit a wall.
当它们撞到墙上时，它们就破碎了。
Baros also threw a salt and pepper shaker set and an ashtray, according to police reports.
据警方报告，巴罗斯还扔了一套盐罐胡椒瓶和一个烟灰缸。
Baros then tried to hit Baca with a chair.
巴罗斯随后试图用椅子打巴卡。
Baros was arrested and faces charges of third degree assault and criminal mischief.
巴罗斯被捕并面临三级袭击和刑事恶作剧指控。
Crime blotter.
犯罪记事本。
The Athens Daily News , Athens, Georgia.
雅典每日新闻，佐治亚州雅典。
Two juveniles mugged the Easter bunny at Georgia Square recently as he left the stage for a break.
最近，当复活节兔子离开舞台休息时，两名青少年在乔治亚广场抢劫了他。
"They came up to me, gave me a hug, and knocked my head back," said the battered bunny, a 19-year-old drama student at the University of Georgia.
“他们走到我身边，拥抱了我，然后把我的头撞了回去，”这只受虐兔子说，他是佐治亚大学 19 岁的戏剧学生。
"From what I was told, they were trying to take off the head," the bunny said.
“据我所知，他们试图取下头，”兔子说。
"I experienced disorientation and a severe headache, resulting in a contusion." Police took a dim view of the incident.
“我感到迷失方向，剧烈头痛，导致挫伤。”警方对这起事件持悲观态度。
They rounded up two suspects, ages 12 and 13, and booked them on charges of simple battery.
他们围捕了两名年龄分别为 12 岁和 13 岁的嫌疑人，并以简单殴打罪对他们进行了登记。
"It's a sad day when the Easter bunny can't appear in public without a security escort," said police sergeant [?
“这是悲伤的一天，复活节兔子在没有安全护送的情况下无法出现在公共场合，”警官说[？
Mike Brenner ?].
迈克·布伦纳？]。
Crime blotter reports written by local reporters John Bauer, Juan Espinosa, Ben Deck, Stephen Gurr, and Joan Stroer.
犯罪记事本报道由当地记者约翰·鲍尔 (John Bauer)、胡安·埃斯皮诺萨 (Juan Espinosa)、本·德克 (Ben Deck)、斯蒂芬·格尔 (Stephen Gurr) 和琼·斯特罗尔 (Joan Stroer) 撰写。
Thanks also to Gail Mann and Duncan Frazier, Jim Thompson and Greg Martin.
还要感谢盖尔·曼、邓肯·弗雷泽、吉姆·汤普森和格雷格·马丁。
Our police blotter was read by actor Matt Malloy, who recently played a cop in the movie Cookie's Fortune and another authority figure, the vice principal, in the movie Election.
我们的警察记事簿是由演员马特·马洛伊朗读的，他最近在电影《饼干的财富》中扮演了一名警察，在电影《选举》中扮演了另一位权威人物——副校长。
Act Three, Grandma Takes a Fall.
第三幕，奶奶摔倒了。
Let's start this act with something that a 19-year-old shoplifter from New York State said in an interview for today's show.
让我们从一位来自纽约州的 19 岁小偷在接受今天节目采访时所说的话开始本次表演。
I really don't think-- I can't imagine myself at 28 or 30, or definitely not like 40 or like 60 years old, and stealing something, just because I think I'll be at a place in my life where I'll be maybe more comfortable with the boredom.
我真的不认为——我无法想象自己在 28 岁或 30 岁，或者绝对不像 40 岁或 60 岁的时候，偷东西，只是因为我认为我生活中的某个阶段可能会更舒服地忍受无聊。
I won't be as restless.
我不会那么焦躁。
I'm just a really restless person.
我只是一个真正不安分的人。
Well, meet Stanley Rosenthal.
好吧，来认识一下斯坦利·罗森塔尔。
Stanley Rosenthal I want to tell you, this golden years is not that great.
斯坦利·罗森塔尔我想告诉你，这个黄金岁月并不美好。
Ask, "Tell me." I'll tell you about it.
问：“告诉我。”我会告诉你这件事。
When you're a senior, every day is something else.
当你成为一名高年级学生时，每一天都是不同的。
You get an ear ache, you go to sleep, it's fine, you'll get up with a toothache.
你耳朵疼，你去睡觉，没关系，你起床时牙疼。
When the toothache disappears, the next day, you get up with a toe ache, or the arthritis gets to you.
当牙痛消失后，第二天，你起床时会感到脚趾疼痛，或者关节炎发作。
These are things that happen to you as a senior.
这些都是发生在你作为老年人身上的事情。
And sometimes, people get aggravated with the world.
有时，人们会对这个世界感到恼怒。
And that's why they go out and steal.
这就是他们出去偷窃的原因。
They're just pissed off.
他们只是生气了。
They don't care.
他们不在乎。
"What the heck?
“到底什么？
Why did God do this to me?" Why can't-- They'll get revenge.
为什么上帝要这样对我？”为什么不能——他们会报复的。
It's revenge.
这是报复。
It's a way of getting revenge.
这是一种报复的方式。
Stanley Rosenthal runs a program in Broward County, Florida.
斯坦利·罗森塔尔在佛罗里达州布劳沃德县开展一个项目。
There are programs like it all over Florida, and in fact, all over the country.
佛罗里达州各地都有类似的项目，事实上，全国各地都有类似的项目。
If you're over 60 and arrested for shoplifting in Broward County, the judge sends your case to Stanley.
如果您年满 60 岁并因在布劳沃德县入店行窃而被捕，法官会将您的案件发送给斯坦利。
Stanley sees an average of 600 senior citizens a year.
斯坦利每年平均接待 600 名老年人。
He spoke with Jeanne Finley and Doug DuBois.
他与珍妮·芬利和道格·杜波依斯进行了交谈。
Nobody knows how much theft is committed each year by senior citizens.
没有人知道老年人每年犯下多少盗窃案。
One study found that seniors comprised 15% of people apprehended for shoplifting.
一项研究发现，因入店行窃而被捕的人中，老年人占 15%。
Seniors, of course, tend to be poorer than other Americans.
当然，老年人往往比其他美国人更穷。
But counselors who work with senior shoplifters say that many of them are not stealing out of need.
但与高级商店扒手一起工作的辅导员表示，他们中的许多人并不是出于需要而偷窃。
About half of senior shoplifters, they say, have stolen all their lives.
他们说，大约一半的高级商店扒手一生都在偷窃。
Stanley sends offenders to do community service.
斯坦利派罪犯去做社区服务。
He does a healthy business.
他的生意很健康。
[TELEPHONE RINGING] Stanley Rosenthal Stan Rosenthal, can I help you?
[电话铃声] 斯坦利·罗森塔尔 斯坦·罗森塔尔，我能为你效劳吗？
Listen, Jane.
听着，简。
I've got you.
我有你。
You're in the program.
你在节目中。
Listen, you do something.
听着，你做点什么。
You've got to go into your church or something and do 20 hours of community service-- Yeah, well, yes and send a-- I'm going to tell you, be careful, be good.
你必须去你的教堂或其他地方，做 20 小时的社区服务——是的，嗯，是的，然后发送——我要告诉你，要小心，要乖。
Because we get arrested the next time, honey, you're coming with your pajamas and your toothbrush, because you're going to go to jail.
因为下次我们会被捕，亲爱的，你要带着睡衣和牙刷来，因为你会进监狱。
So I'm just telling you, that's what.
所以我只是告诉你，就是这样。
A second time, they don't stand for second offenders.
第二次，他们不再容忍二犯。
OK, dear?
好的亲爱的？
All right, give me a call in a couple weeks.
好的，几周后给我打电话。
Bye-bye.
再见。
When they first come in, when they come in here, their head down to the floor.
当他们第一次进来时，当他们来到这里时，他们的头低到地板上。
They're miserable.
他们很悲惨。
They have no hope.
他们没有希望。
They're terribly concerned that the kids, their grandchildren, are going to find out.
他们非常担心孩子们、他们的孙子们会发现这一点。
And then I encourage them.
然后我鼓励他们。
I tell them what the program is all-- "Nobody's going to know.
我告诉他们这个计划的全部内容——“没有人会知道。
Keep your mouth shut.
闭嘴。
Don't tell anybody.
不要告诉任何人。
The worst thing to do is tell your friends.
最糟糕的事情就是告诉你的朋友。
Your sympathy, looking for sympathy.
你的同情，寻求同情。
First thing you know, your friend is telling 68 people.
首先你知道，你的朋友正在告诉 68 个人。
And the first thing you know, 900 people know about you.
首先你知道的，有 900 个人都知道你。
You go over to a restaurant, say, 'Oh, you got arrested for shoplifting the other day, didn't you?'" This way, I tell them, "Don't even tell your mother.
你去一家餐馆，说，‘哦，前几天你因为入店行窃被捕了，不是吗？’”这样，我告诉他们，“甚至不要告诉你妈妈。
Don't tell your kids.
不要告诉你的孩子。
Don't tell anybody.
不要告诉任何人。
That's right.
没错。
Keep your mouth shut.
闭嘴。
Never open up your mouth because people stink."
永远不要张开嘴，因为人很臭。”
The place was very crowded because they had a sale on.
这个地方非常拥挤，因为他们正在进行促销。
And when I went to the door, I started to go out the door, and then a woman came and grabbed my arm, and took me by the elbow, and turned me around, and began to take me into the store again.
当我走到门口时，我正要走出门，然后一个女人过来抓住我的手臂，抓住我的肘部，然后把我转过身来，开始再次带我进商店。
And she said I had taken something that wasn't mine and without paying for it.
她说我拿了一些不属于我的东西，而且没有付钱。
And I said, no I hadn't.
我说，不，我没有。
This woman asks that we not give her name over the radio because, you know, people stink.
这位女士要求我们不要在广播中透露她的名字，因为，你知道，人们很臭。
We can say that she lives in another big state that is far from Florida.
可以说她生活在远离佛罗里达的另一个大州。
She talked with Jeanne Finley.
她与珍妮芬利交谈。
Oh, I wanted to run away.
哦，我想逃跑。
I couldn't believe it.
我简直不敢相信。
I tried to run away, as a matter of fact.
事实上，我试图逃跑。
But she had such a tight hold on my arm, she steered me back into the store.
但她紧紧地抓住我的手臂，把我带回商店。
And it was very embarrassing with all the people watching.
而且在所有人的注视下，场面非常尴尬。
And I felt terrible.
我感觉很糟糕。
I thought I was going to have a heart attack.
我以为我心脏病要发作了。
I thought I was going to faint.
我以为我要晕倒了。
And I was so upset that when I got into the little room, they gave me a glass of water to drink because I was so upset.
我很沮丧，当我走进小房间时，他们给了我一杯水喝，因为我很沮丧。
And when the police came, what happened?
当警察来的时候，发生了什么？
When the police came, I had to empty my pocketbook.
当警察来的时候，我不得不掏空我的钱包。
And I had to show them what I had in it.
我必须向他们展示我所拥有的东西。
And they immediately pounced on the aspirin and said that this was what I had stolen and taken away without paying for it.
而他们立刻扑到阿司匹林上，说这是我偷来的，没付钱就拿走了。
And I said, "No." And finally, I had to admit that I had done it.
我说：“不。”最后，我不得不承认我做到了。
I offered to pay for the aspirin, but they said, no, it doesn't work that way, that I had taken it.
我提出支付阿司匹林的费用，但他们说，不，这样不行，我已经服用了。
And so I had to suffer from the consequences of having taken the aspirin.
所以我不得不承受服用阿司匹林的后果。
And I said, "What's going to happen to me now?" And they said, "Well, you have a choice.
我说：“现在我会发生什么？”他们说：“好吧，你有选择。
You can go to jail, or you can take a course to stop you from shoplifting." It was a program specifically for senior shoplifters.
你可以进监狱，或者你可以参加一个课程来阻止你入店行窃。”这是一个专门针对高级商店扒手的计划。
And we were supposed to look into ourselves and find out what made us shoplift.
我们应该审视自己，找出是什么让我们在商店行窃。
What did you come up with?
你想出了什么办法？
What did you learn from it?
你从中学到了什么？
Well, I learned that I enjoyed the shoplifting beforehand.
嗯，我事先就知道我喜欢入店行窃。
But I don't know why.
但我不知道为什么。
I didn't really learn that much from the sessions.
我并没有从会议中真正学到很多东西。
I always enjoyed shoplifting.
我一直很喜欢入店行窃。
I always enjoyed taking things.
我总是喜欢拿东西。
But we were told that that wasn't the way we should feel, that we should feel guilty and ashamed of what we had done.
但我们被告知，这不是我们应该有的感受，我们应该为我们所做的事情感到内疚和羞耻。
This is a drugstore similar to the one where I was caught shoplifting.
这是一家药店，和我在商店行窃时被抓到的那家很相似。
But I can't go back to that one, because they don't allow you to go in once you've been caught shoplifting.
但我不能再回到那个地方了，因为一旦你被抓到入店行窃，他们就不允许你进去。
Well, this is the candy aisle.
嗯，这里是糖果过道。
But I don't ever go down the candy aisle.
但我从来不去糖果通道。
It's too open and too many people in this area.
这里太开放了，这个地区的人太多了。
I like to go down an aisle where there are not many people.
我喜欢走人不多的过道。
I've shoplifted most of my life.
我一生中大部分时间都在商店行窃。
I started when I was quite young.
我很小的时候就开始了。
And it was a way of getting back at my parents because they were so strict to me.
这是报复我父母的一种方式，因为他们对我太严格了。
And I would take things.
我会拿东西。
They didn't allow me to have candy, so I took candy.
他们不让我吃糖，所以我就拿了糖。
They didn't allow me to wear my hair in a fancy style, so I took bobby pins.
他们不允许我把头发弄得很花哨，所以我带了发夹。
They didn't allow me to dress in a certain way.
他们不允许我以某种方式穿着。
I couldn't have earrings.
我不能有耳环。
It was so easy to just go to the store, and whatever I wanted, I would just slip into a bag that I had with me.
去商店很方便，无论我想要什么，我都可以放进我随身携带的包里。
And then it began to be a question of I felt I could pull something off that other people couldn't do.
然后问题就开始出现：我觉得我可以做一些别人做不到的事情。
And I felt very good about that.
我对此感觉非常好。
And then I began to be happy that I could get something for nothing.
然后我开始为自己能不劳而获而感到高兴。
And that was great.
那太好了。
I didn't shoplift so much when my children were young, because I was busy and very involved with the family and getting meals and things like that.
当我的孩子还小的时候，我并没有经常去商店行窃，因为我很忙，并且非常参与家庭事务，包括吃饭之类的事情。
But once in a while, when I would be in the store after the children were in school and everything, I would go and pick up a thing or two.
但偶尔，当孩子们放学后我在商店里时，我会去买一两件东西。
But it was much less frequent when I had my children.
但当我有了孩子之后，这种情况就少得多了。
Oh, they never knew.
哦，他们从来不知道。
I wouldn't have told them for anything.
我不会告诉他们任何事情。
I would be afraid to tell them.
我害怕告诉他们。
Have you told anybody about the fact that you were caught recently?
你有没有告诉过任何人你最近被抓的事实？
I haven't told anybody but you.
除了你，我没有告诉过任何人。
And you said you wouldn't tell anybody.
你还说过你不会告诉任何人。
I held the basket on my arm just like this.
我就这样把篮子放在胳膊上。
And then I had my purse on my other shoulder.
然后我把钱包放在另一个肩膀上。
And as I went down the aisle, I had stopped and looked around to make sure nobody was watching me.
当我沿着过道走时，我停下来环顾四周，以确保没有人在看着我。
But there are so many mirrors in this store.
但这家店里的镜子实在是太多了。
There are mirrors over there, there are mirrors over there.
那边有镜子，那边有镜子。
And I imagine there are a lot of TV cameras that I can't even see.
我想有很多我什至看不到的电视摄像机。
Well, actually, I shoplift whenever the mood strikes me, whenever I feel sad or depressed in any way.
嗯，事实上，每当我心情不好，每当我感到悲伤或沮丧时，我都会去商店行窃。
I can't tell you exactly how many times, because I guess I don't keep that careful track.
我无法告诉你具体有多少次，因为我想我没有仔细记录。
But I would guess at least once a month, if not more often.
但我猜至少每月一次，甚至更频繁。
And I do it because it gives me such a lift to be out among people and to be pulling this off on them.
我这样做是因为它给了我很大的动力，让我能够走到人群中，向他们展示这一点。
You know, when my husband died, I got very lonely.
你知道，当我丈夫去世后，我变得非常孤独。
And I didn't like to be so lonely.
而且我不喜欢这么孤独。
I wanted to get out and do things.
我想出去做点事情。
But I couldn't get out because I didn't know anybody.
但我无法出去，因为我不认识任何人。
See, he worked and I didn't.
看，他工作了，而我没有。
And he went out and had a lot of friends.
他出去了，有很多朋友。
And I didn't have many friends because I stayed home.
而且我没有很多朋友，因为我呆在家里。
Only the neighbors.
只有邻居。
And sometimes, the neighbors were younger than I was, and they were all busy and involved.
有时，邻居们都比我年轻，他们都很忙碌，也很投入。
And after my children grew up, I didn't have much chance to meet people.
而且孩子长大后，我也没有太多机会认识人。
I feel quite lonely as a senior because my children moved away.
作为一名老年人，我感到很孤独，因为我的孩子们搬走了。
And then, they weren't nearby.
然后，他们就不在附近了。
And they were all involved in their own doings and lives.
他们都参与了自己的事情和生活。
And I felt very sad and lonely.
我感到非常悲伤和孤独。
And when I get out and go to the store and go to the sales and look at the merchandise, it gives me a great deal of happiness to do this.
当我出去去商店、去销售处、看商品时，这样做给我带来了很大的快乐。
Well, I held my purse in this manner and opened it up.
嗯，我就这样拿着钱包，打开了它。
And I was looking things over, taking them off the shelf and looking them over.
我正在仔细检查东西，把它们从架子上拿出来仔细检查。
And I got my Kleenex out of my purse.
我从钱包里拿出了面巾纸。
And I would, a-choo.
我会的，a-choo。
And then, I took the Kleenex to wipe my nose and slipped the aspirin in my purse so they couldn't see it.
然后，我拿起面巾纸擦鼻子，把阿司匹林塞进我的钱包里，这样他们就看不到了。
That's the trouble with those senior centers.
这就是那些高级中心的问题。
They're all seniors, and they've all got the same problems and the same difficulties.
他们都是前辈，都有同样的问题、同样的困难。
I like to be out shoplifting or going to the market or going to the store and looking at the sales and doing things like that, being among all types of people, all ages and all kinds.
我喜欢出去行窃，或者去市场，或者去商店，看看销售情况，做类似的事情，与各种类型的人、所有年龄段和各种类型的人在一起。
And in the senior center, another thing.
而在老年中心，又是另一回事。
All they do is to play bridge.
他们所做的就是打桥牌。
And I don't know how to play bridge.
而且我不知道怎么打桥牌。
I started taking lessons.
我开始上课。
But the lessons were kind of difficult.
但课程有点困难。
And you had to keep your attention on them, and you had to keep playing.
你必须把注意力集中在他们身上，你必须继续玩。
And I didn't always want to go to the senior center, because I have arthritis, and my arthritis began to hurt.
而且我并不总是想去老年中心，因为我有关节炎，而且我的关节炎开始疼痛。
And I didn't want to go there and play bridge with a bunch of people that I didn't know very well.
我不想去那里和一群我不太熟悉的人打桥牌。
It was much more fun to go shoplifting.
去商店行窃更有趣。
I need to get some bandages today.
我今天需要买一些绷带。
But I'm not sure I want to do it here.
但我不确定我想在这里这样做。
I feel very open and exposed here.
我在这里感觉非常开放和暴露。
When I was young, I took things that a young girl would take.
当我年轻的时候，我拿了年轻女孩会拿的东西。
I took things like makeup and things like that, that would make me prettier and more attractive to other people.
我接受了诸如化妆之类的东西，这会让我更漂亮，对其他人来说更有吸引力。
But as I grew older, I began to take things that I needed more, like the aspirin.
但随着年龄的增长，我开始服用更多我需要的东西，比如阿司匹林。
I needed the aspirin.
我需要阿司匹林。
And I began to take that sort of thing, rather than the makeup and the things like that.
我开始接受这类事情，而不是化妆之类的事情。
And did you ever try to stop?
你有尝试过停下来吗？
Woman 2 Oh, I have tried.
女2 哦，我试过了。
But you can't stop something that-- I guess it's kind of like drinking.
但你无法阻止某些事情——我想这有点像喝酒。
You can't stop drinking because you enjoy it.
你无法停止饮酒，因为你喜欢它。
Well, I couldn't stop shoplifting because I enjoy it.
好吧，我无法停止入店行窃，因为我喜欢它。
Why do you think the program is not effective?
您认为该计划为何无效？
Was it not effective because the things that make you want to shoplift, the program couldn't change?
难道它没有效果是因为那些让你想入店行窃的东西，程序无法改变吗？
Yes, that's really why.
是的，这就是原因。
I couldn't get my children to come and be with me more.
我无法让我的孩子们更多地和我在一起。
I couldn't get other people to come.
我无法让其他人来。
My arthritis keeps hurting, and nobody seems to be able to stop that from hurting.
我的关节炎一直在疼痛，似乎没有人能够阻止它的疼痛。
So I wanted something that would take my mind off my hurt.
所以我想要一些能让我忘却伤痛的东西。
And I could shoplift and be very clever doing that.
我可以入店行窃，而且做得非常聪明。
And it would take my mind off my pain.
这会让我忘记痛苦。
In the program in your senior center, did you make friends with any of the other people in the class?
在您的高级中心的项目中，您是否与班上的其他人交了朋友？
You mean when I was in the-- Jeanne Finley In the program.
你是说当我在——珍妮·芬利（Jeanne Finley）的节目中。
No, I didn't.
不，我没有。
Who wants to get friendly with people who are thieves?
谁愿意和小偷交朋友呢？
But you're not a thief?
但你不是小偷？
Woman 2 Well, I don't consider myself a thief.
女人2 嗯，我不认为自己是小偷。
I guess, technically, I am.
我想，从技术上来说，我是。
No, I don't feel like a thief.
不，我不觉得自己像个小偷。
I feel as though I deserve what I get.
我觉得我得到的一切都是我应得的。
I've worked hard all my life.
我一生都在努力工作。
And I deserve to have a little something extra.
我值得拥有一些额外的东西。
But I guess society doesn't look at it that way.
但我想社会并不这么看。
That interview by Jeanne Finley, a documentary filmmaker in New York.
纽约纪录片制片人珍妮·芬利 (Jeanne Finley) 的采访。
Our program was produced today by Julie Snyder and myself with Alex Blumberg, Susan Burton, and Nancy Updike.
今天我们的节目由朱莉·斯奈德和我与亚历克斯·布隆伯格、苏珊·伯顿和南希·厄普代克共同制作。
Contributing editors for this show, Jack Hitt, Margy Rochlin, Alix Spiegel, and Consigliere Sarah Vowell.
本节目的特约编辑包括 Jack Hitt、Margy Rochlin、Alix Spiegel 和 Consigliere Sarah Vowell。
Production help from Todd Bachmann, Seth Lind, and Thea Chaloner.
Todd Bachmann、Seth Lind 和 Thea Chaloner 为制作提供帮助。
Elizabeth Meister runs our website.
伊丽莎白·梅斯特 (Elizabeth Meister) 负责运营我们的网站。
Musical help today from Marika Partridge.
今天来自玛丽卡·帕特里奇的音乐帮助。
You know you can listen to our programs for absolutely free on our website, www.thisamericanlife.org.
您知道，您可以在我们的网站 www.thisamericanlife.org 上完全免费收听我们的节目。
Or you know you can download audio of our program at audible.com/thisamericanlife.
或者您知道可以在 audible.com/thisamericanlife 下载我们节目的音频。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight for our program by Mr. Torey Malatia, who wants you to know just one thing.
[资金来源] Torey Malatia 先生对 WBEZ 项目进行管理监督，他想让您知道一件事。
Really, just one little thing.
真的，只是一件小事。
One, and one thing only.
一件事，只有一件事。
You know why other people steal?
你知道为什么别人偷东西吗？
To buy drugs, which is disgusting.
去买毒品，这很恶心。
You know what I use this for?
你知道我用这个做什么吗？
My rent and car insurance.
我的租金和汽车保险。
I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life.
我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
I didn't really think of it as a sin at the time.
当时我并不真的认为这是一种罪过。
I thought of it as an opportunity.
我认为这是一个机会。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。