132: Father’s Day ‘99 - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #132 | June 16, 2006 132: Father’s Day ‘99 Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 132 集 | 2006 年 6 月 16 日 132：99 年父亲节 注：《This American Life》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
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如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass Alex was seven.
序言 艾拉·格拉斯·亚历克斯七岁。
He had a Teddy bear named Tony.
他有一只名叫托尼的泰迪熊。
Tony had been with him forever.
托尼一直和他在一起。
Tony was with him back when he had all sorts of surgery and nobody was sure if he was going to pull through.
当他接受各种手术时，托尼一直陪在他身边，没有人确定他是否能挺过去。
But Alex did pull through.
但亚历克斯确实挺了过来。
And afterwards, when the nerves of the family were still jangling, Alex continued to carry around Tony for years, sleep with Tony.
之后，当家人的神经仍然紧张时，亚历克斯继续背着托尼很多年，和托尼一起睡觉。
When he was seven, he took Tony with him to Disneyland.
七岁时，他带着托尼去了迪士尼乐园。
And, when the family got back home to San Francisco from Disneyland, Alex's parents unpacked the bags and looked for Tony.
当一家人从迪士尼乐园回到旧金山的家时，亚历克斯的父母打开行李寻找托尼。
And Tony was not there.
而托尼并不在那儿。
Alex's dad, Jon, tells the story.
亚历克斯的父亲乔恩讲述了这个故事。
So Alex was in the room and we told him it appears that Tony isn't here.
亚历克斯在房间里，我们告诉他托尼似乎不在这里。
And it took him about a minute to really realize that Tony was gone.
他花了大约一分钟才真正意识到托尼已经走了。
And, at that point, he said two things.
就在那时，他说了两件事。
The first thing is he said that he couldn't imagine life without Tony, and the other is he said, "I feel like I've lost my spirit."
第一件事是他说他无法想象没有托尼的生活，第二件事是他说“我感觉我失去了精神”。
At that point, what's a parent to do?
这时候，家长该怎么办呢？
You know, what do you do?
你知道，你做什么？
So they call the hotel, and the hotel says over the phone they have not found this Teddy bear.
于是他们打电话给酒店，酒店在电话里说他们没有找到这只泰迪熊。
And so Jon flew down there the next morning.
于是乔恩第二天早上就飞到了那里。
He tried to be a good dad, rented a car, retraced the family's path, made his way to the hotel.
他试图成为一个好爸爸，租了一辆车，沿着家人的路线，前往酒店。
After waiting for a few minutes in the lobby, a security guard came and said, "Well, Mr. Holtzman, we have bad news for you.
在大厅等了几分钟后，一名保安过来说道：“霍尔兹曼先生，我们有坏消息要告诉你。
We know what happened to the bear." And they explained that a maid had seen the bear, apparently, in the garbage and that he'd been thrown away.
我们知道那只熊发生了什么事。”他们解释说，一名女仆显然在垃圾堆里看到了这只熊，然后他就被扔掉了。
And so my immediate reaction was well, that's great.
所以我的第一反应很好，这很好。
That's not bad news.
这不是坏消息。
That's good news because at least we know where he is.
这是个好消息，因为至少我们知道他在哪里。
And he said, "Well, no. You've got to see the problem here." And we went around to the back.
他说：“好吧，不。你必须看到这里的问题。”我们绕到后面。
And there was this huge sealed dumpster with a compacter on the front, literally, the size of a semi trailer and 25, 30 feet long, at least.
还有一个巨大的密封垃圾箱，前面有一个压实机，字面意思是半拖车大小，至少有 25、30 英尺长。
They looked at it and there was, literally, no way into this dumpster.
他们看了看，确实没有办法进入这个垃圾箱。
Jon started to despair.
乔恩开始绝望。
And I started asking, "Well, when is the next garbage pickup?" And they said, "Well, it's a day from now." And I'm thinking what am I going to do?
我开始问：“那么，下一次垃圾收集是什么时候？”他们说：“好吧，一天后了。”我在想我该怎么办？
And, just as we were having this discussion, the truck arrives to pick up this giant dumpster a day early.
而且，就在我们进行讨论的时候，卡车提前一天到达，捡起了这个巨大的垃圾箱。
And this was kind of an amazing thing because, if I had gotten there 15 minutes later, or 20 minutes later, the garbage truck would've been gone.
这是一件令人惊奇的事情，因为如果我晚 15 分钟或 20 分钟到达那里，垃圾车就会消失。
A squad of hotel employees was deployed to travel with Jon and the garbage truck to the recycling plant to search for the Teddy bear.
一队酒店员工被派去与乔恩和垃圾车一起前往回收厂寻找泰迪熊。
And, you know, there are only two possible attitudes that adults would have towards this particular mission.
而且，你知道，成年人对这一特定使命只有两种可能的态度。
One, they would be into it, or, two, they would think that Jon's a nut.
一，他们会对此感兴趣，或者，二，他们会认为乔恩是个疯子。
And, incredibly, none of them thought that he was a nut.
而且，令人难以置信的是，他们没有人认为他是个疯子。
But why?
但为什么？
Because almost all of them were parents.
因为他们几乎都是父母。
And, at some point or another, almost all of them had been in the same or a similar situation.
而且，在某个时刻，几乎所有人都经历过相同或相似的情况。
I mean, you couldn't be a parent without having dealt with your kids dealing with loss, you know?
我的意思是，如果你没有和孩子一起面对失去亲人的痛苦，你就不可能成为父母，你知道吗？
And it's so horrible.
这太可怕了。
And, yeah.
而且，是的。
I mean, I think everybody rallied to exactly that cause.
我的意思是，我认为每个人都为了这个原因而团结起来。
It's interesting because I think that a lot of parents get to points, at different points in their child's lives, where they want to intervene, and they feel like they will not allow fate to hurt their child.
这很有趣，因为我认为很多父母都会在孩子生命中的不同阶段进行干预，他们觉得自己不会让命运伤害他们的孩子。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Ira Glass And they will simply do whatever they can to stop fate.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 他们会尽一切努力来阻止命运。
There's no question.
毫无疑问。
And, you know, if you've ever had a child who almost dies, it means a lot, in a way, to be able to protect your kids from that kind of thing.
而且，你知道，如果你曾经有一个差点死去的孩子，那么从某种程度上来说，能够保护你的孩子免受此类事情的侵害意义重大。
Well, on this Father's Day, we bring you stories of dads trying to protect their kids and kids trying to protect their dads.
好吧，在这个父亲节，我们为您带来父亲努力保护孩子和孩子努力保护父亲的故事。
From WBEZ Chicago and Public Radio International, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 和国际公共广播电台的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today on our program, the protection racket that is parenthood.
今天在我们的节目中，保护费就是为人父母。
Our program today in three acts.
我们今天的节目分三幕。
Act One, Paddington's Day at the Dump, the story of a man, a small toy bear, and tens of thousands of pounds of soggy garbage.
第一幕，垃圾场的帕丁顿日，讲述了一个男人、一只小玩具熊和数万磅湿漉漉的垃圾的故事。
Act Two, A Trip Down Memory Lane.
第二幕，回忆之旅。
A son takes his father on one, last road trip to jog his dad's failing memory of his own life.
儿子带着父亲进行了最后一次公路旅行，以唤起父亲对自己生活的衰退记忆。
Act Three, Age of Enchantment.
第三幕，魔法时代。
Writer Lawrence Weschler and his daughter, Sarah, talk about something that he did intending to be kind, intending to protect her from disappointment, that inadvertently broke her heart, and how she saved the day for the two of them.
作家劳伦斯·韦施勒 (Lawrence Weschler) 和他的女儿莎拉 (Sarah) 讲述了他出于善意、保护她免遭失望而做的一件事，却无意中伤了她的心，以及她如何为他们两人挽救了局面。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, Paddington's Day at the Dump.
第一幕，垃圾场的帕丁顿日。
So Jon Holtzman and the hotel employees followed the garbage truck that's hauling the dumpster away.
于是，乔恩·霍尔兹曼和酒店员工就跟随那辆将垃圾箱拖走的垃圾车。
In his car, four conscripts.
他的车里坐着四名义务兵。
And, at this point, essentially, this story becomes the movie, Saving Private Ryan.
而且，从本质上讲，这个故事现在就变成了电影《拯救大兵瑞恩》。
And, you know, why don't we have some of the music from the movie just to set the right mood?
而且，你知道，为什么我们不使用电影中的一些音乐来营造合适的气氛呢？
[MUSIC PLAYING - "HYMN TO THE FALLEN" FROM SAVING PRIVATE RYAN]
[音乐播放——《拯救大兵瑞恩》中的“阵亡者赞歌”]
Perfect.
完美。
Somewhere in Southern California there's a little bear named Tony.
在南加州的某个地方，有一只名叫托尼的小熊。
And these four recruits are going to get him out to assuage the grief of one American family.
这四名新兵将把他救出来，以减轻一个美国家庭的悲伤。
OK, so we're in the car and there is this kind of silence.
好吧，我们在车里，周围一片寂静。
I made a deal with everybody in the car.
我和车里的每个人都做了一笔交易。
I offered each of them $100 for the person who found the bear.
我给他们每人 100 美元，奖励找到这只熊的人。
And we were kind of plotting strategy of, well, OK, when they open this dumpster, how are we going to find the bear?
我们正在制定策略，好吧，当他们打开这个垃圾箱时，我们将如何找到这只熊？
Where is he going to be in the dumpster?
他会在垃圾箱里哪里？
How many days of garbage is there?
垃圾还有多少天？
And, you know.
而且，你知道。
And so we finally arrive at the recycling plant.
我们终于到达了回收厂。
And, first of all, the scope of this plant is not at all what I'd imagined.
而且，首先，这个工厂的规模根本不是我想象的那样。
I expected it to be just a garbage dump.
我原以为它只是一个垃圾场。
But, instead, it's what I imagine to be, essentially, a modern recycling plant.
但是，相反，我想象的本质上是一个现代化的回收工厂。
And there were these huge caterpillar trailers and tractors running around the plant.
工厂周围有这些巨大的履带式拖车和拖拉机在行驶。
And there were these huge steel floors.
还有这些巨大的钢地板。
And the scope, the scale, of the place was just really awesome.
这个地方的范围、规模真的很棒。
Yeah, it's just huge.
是的，它太大了。
Ira Glass It takes a long, long time to talk their way into the plant.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）花了很长很长的时间才进入工厂。
If they enter, all work at the recycling center has to stop.
如果他们进入，回收中心的所有工作都必须停止。
But, incredibly, finally, they're allowed in under one condition.
但令人难以置信的是，他们最终在一个条件下被允许进入。
We would have 15 minutes to search this pile.
我们有 15 分钟的时间来搜索这堆东西。
But that's all we could have, which put a lot of pressure on us.
但这就是我们所能拥有的一切，这给我们带来了很大的压力。
Although, I'm not sure we understood how much pressure it would put on us until they dumped the garbage out of the trailer.
尽管如此，我不确定我们是否理解这会给我们带来多大的压力，直到他们把垃圾从拖车里倒出来。
So they dumped the garbage out of the trailer.
于是他们把垃圾从拖车里倒了出来。
And, even though the trailer was large, I guess I'd kind of underestimated how much garbage can go in a trailer that size.
而且，即使拖车很大，我想我还是低估了这么大的拖车里可以装多少垃圾。
And so they dumped this out on the floor.
所以他们把这个扔在地板上。
And, of course, it spread out, so it occupied this really massive space on the floor.
当然，它散开了，所以它占据了地板上这个非常大的空间。
And it was full of this brown sludge, and liquid, and just tens of thousands of plastic bags floating, essentially.
它充满了棕色的污泥和液体，基本上只有数以万计的塑料袋漂浮着。
Not really floating, but oozing in this--
并不是真正漂浮，而是渗入其中——
This soggy sort of-- Jon Holtzman --soggy mess.
这种湿漉漉的——乔恩·霍尔茨曼——湿漉漉的一团糟。
Exactly.
确切地。
And I took one look at this pile and my heart truly sank because I just thought I don't even know where to begin.
我看了一眼这堆东西，我的心真的沉了下去，因为我觉得我什至不知道从哪里开始。
A number of the people who came with me jumped in and immediately started ripping open bags trying to find the bear.
和我一起来的一些人跳了进去，立即开始撕开袋子试图找到这只熊。
And so, after 30 seconds or so of taking in the enormity of the thing, I just plunged into this pile along with them.
就这样，在了解了这件事的严重性大约30秒后，我就和他们一起跳进了这堆东西里。
And, watching us do it, these garbage men, the folks who were running the recycling plant, at least four or five of them put on their gloves and started doing the same thing with us.
而且，看着我们这样做，这些垃圾工，那些经营回收厂的人，至少有四五个人戴上了手套，开始和我们做同样的事情。
So, at this point, there were a group of maybe eight or nine of us pulling apart bags and frantically looking for this bear.
所以，此时，我们大约有八九个人，打开袋子，疯狂地寻找这只熊。
Seven or eight minutes into it I just despaired of ever finding the bear.
七八分钟后，我对找到熊感到绝望。
And I couldn't believe it, you know?
我简直不敢相信，你知道吗？
We'd come this far, you know?
我们已经走到这一步了，你知道吗？
And it just seemed that it ought to work out, but I didn't see how it would.
看起来应该会成功，但我不知道会如何。
It was just too big.
它太大了。
And I remember saying to myself, "Tony, if you're here, you're really just going to have to appear on the surface because there's just no way.
我记得我对自己说：“托尼，如果你在这里，你真的只能出现在表面上，因为根本没有办法。
I mean, the only way this is going to happen is if you make yourself appear." And the next thing I knew I was holding the bear.
我的意思是，实现这一目标的唯一方法就是你让自己出现。”接下来我就知道我拿着那只熊了。
Wait a second.
等一下。
What do you mean?
你是什么意思？
Do you mean you picked up a plastic bag and you shook--
你是说你拿起一个塑料袋然后摇晃——
I picked up a plastic bag, and there he was.
我拿起一个塑料袋，他就在那里。
And he was in a plastic bag, so he was completely dry and unscathed.
而且他被装在塑料袋里，所以完全干燥，毫发无伤。
How do you explain that?
你怎么解释？
Jon Holtzman Oh, I don't.
乔恩·霍尔兹曼 哦，我不知道。
You know, I'm a rationalist.
你知道，我是一个理性主义者。
I'm not religious.
我不信教。
I'm not really spiritual in any way.
我在任何方面都不是真正的灵性。
I'm a labor negotiator.
我是一名劳工谈判代表。
I don't explain it.
我不解释。
You know, the thing that's strange to me is not just the way I found him, but we had eight or nine people looking, you know?
你知道，对我来说奇怪的不仅仅是我找到他的方式，而是我们有八九个人在寻找，你知道吗？
And why was I the one who found him?
为什么是我找到了他？
Because you were touched by an angel that wanted to save you $100?
因为你被一位想为你节省 100 美元的天使感动了？
Yeah.
是的。
[LAUGHS] Ira Glass Jon Holtzman is an attorney in San Francisco.
[笑] Ira Glass Jon Holtzman 是旧金山的一名律师。
The hotel that deployed its forces to get the bear back, I feel like we should give them credit.
酒店出动力量把熊救了回来，我觉得我们应该给予他们荣誉。
Let's say their name on the air.
让我们在广播中说出他们的名字。
It's the Sheraton Anaheim.
这是阿纳海姆喜来登酒店。
But one last note.
但最后一点要注意。
Here is the thing about being a father, being a parent.
这是关于成为父亲、成为父母的事情。
Jon gets the bear.
乔恩得到了熊。
His whole squad is giddy, completely giddy, on the drive back to the hotel.
在返回酒店的路上，他的整个团队都感到头晕，完全头晕。
And there, he calls his son to give him the news.
在那里，他打电话给儿子告诉他这个消息。
He was really, really happy.
他真的非常非常高兴。
But there was also a slightly of-course-ish response to the thing, which is, "Well, good.
但也有人对这件事做出了有点理所当然的反应，那就是，“嗯，很好。
I'm glad you got the bear."
我很高兴你得到了这只熊。”
He doesn't quite understand it for the heroic gesture that it is.
他不太理解这是何等英雄的举动。
I think that's true.
我认为这是真的。
Ira Glass He's like, oh, yeah.
Ira Glass 他说，哦，是的。
Dad went down and got the bear.
爸爸下去抓到了熊。
That's completely true.
这是完全正确的。
Ira Glass The theme to Star Wars is not playing in his head as that happens.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）发生这种情况时，星球大战的主题并没有在他的脑海中播放。
[LAUGHTER] Act Two: A Trip Down Memory Lane Ira Glass Act Two, Trip Down Memory Lane.
[笑声] 第二幕：回忆之旅 艾拉·格拉斯 第二幕，回忆之旅。
Joel Meyerowitz is a photographer.
乔尔·迈耶罗维茨是一位摄影师。
He grew up in New York City.
他在纽约长大。
In the 1970's, his parents moved to Florida.
20世纪70年代，他的父母搬到了佛罗里达州。
Joel would visit for a few days at a time.
乔尔每次都会来拜访几天。
As time passed, his father, Hy, developed Alzheimer's.
随着时间的推移，他的父亲海患上了老年痴呆症。
Before he retired, Hy was a salesman for 40 years.
退休前，Hy 担任了 40 年的推销员。
He did a few years as a comic in a vaudeville act before that.
在此之前，他曾在歌舞杂耍表演中担任过几年喜剧演员。
He was a boxer.
他是一名拳击手。
He won his weight class in the first Golden Gloves competition.
他在第一届金手套比赛中赢得了他的重量级冠军。
But now that he had Alzheimer's, the doctor said that he should stay inside, avoid a lot of stimulation.
但现在他得了老年痴呆症，医生说他应该呆在室内，避免很多刺激。
His son, Joel, thought, what if we tried, for a brief time, something different?
他的儿子乔尔想，如果我们短暂尝试一些不同的东西会怎么样？
He wanted to have one last adventure with his father, one last road trip before the Alzheimer's made it impossible to have more adventures.
他想和父亲一起进行最后一次冒险，这是在阿兹海默症使他不可能再进行更多冒险之前的最后一次公路旅行。
Joel also hoped that, maybe, being on the road, visiting places that he'd been, going back to the old neighborhood one more time, might spark some memories that had been gone for his dad, that had been long, long vanished.
乔尔还希望，也许，在路上，参观他去过的地方，再次回到老邻居，可能会激发一些他父亲已经消失的记忆，那些记忆已经消失了很久很久了。
It was a gift to his dad.
这是送给他父亲的礼物。
So they got a camera.
于是他们就买了一台相机。
They went on a three-week trip driving from Fort Lauderdale back to New York City.
他们从劳德代尔堡开车返回纽约市，进行了为期三周的旅行。
Joel Meyerowitz's son, Sasha, filmed lots of the trip.
乔尔·迈耶罗维茨 (Joel Meyerowitz) 的儿子萨沙 (Sasha) 拍摄了这次旅行的大部分内容。
You actually hear his voice only a few times in this footage I'm about to play you.
实际上，在我要扮演你的这段视频中，你只听到了几次他的声音。
When they set out on the trip, Sasha was 27, Joel was 57, Hy was 87.
当他们出发时，萨沙 27 岁，乔尔 57 岁，海 87 岁。
Well, I'll be honest with you, Joel, I don't know remember.
好吧，我对你说实话，乔尔，我不记得了。
Not the Catskills ocean?
不是卡茨基尔海吗？
Catskills are mountains.
卡茨基尔山是山。
Hy Meyerowitz Yeah.
海·迈耶罗维茨 是的。
Which one?
哪一个？
Hy Meyerowitz Well, I don't know.
海·迈耶罗维茨 好吧，我不知道。
So, which one is it then?
那么，到底是哪一个呢？
Hy Meyerowitz Either the Permissia?
Hy Meyerowitz 要么是Permissia？
or the--
或——
The Permissic.
许可的。
Right.
正确的。
Hy Meyerowitz The Permissic?
海·迈耶罗维茨（Hy Meyerowitz）？
I am at the Pershimmoth.
我在珀西莫斯。
What are you asking me so early in the morning a question like that?
你一大早就问我这样的问题干什么？
Where were you born?
你在哪里出世？
Hy Meyerowitz 1092-- 109207-- no. 159059 East--
海·迈耶罗维茨 1092-- 109207-- 没有。 159059东--
Well, it was East 100th Street, right?
嗯，那是东 100 街，对吗？
Yeah?
是的？
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Joel Meyerowitz He taught me all the street smart things.
乔尔·迈耶罗维茨（Joel Meyerowitz）他教会了我所有街头聪明的事情。
He set up a punching bag for me.
他为我设置了一个沙袋。
And he taught me how to fight, how to take my stance, how to throw a punch, how to put your body behind it.
他教我如何战斗，如何采取立场，如何出拳，如何将身体放在后面。
He had me work out on a light bag too.
他还让我用轻包进行锻炼。
Like this, you know?
像这样，你知道吗？
He always felt that, if you got into a scrape in a neighborhood, that you shouldn't run away.
他总觉得，如果你在附近遇到麻烦，你不应该逃跑。
His motto was, "Step in and deliver the first blow." And he said, "Take the biggest guy down." And that was his attitude.
他的座右铭是“介入并发出第一击”。他说：“把最大的家伙打倒。”这就是他的态度。
He wouldn't stop and run away from anything.
他不会停下来逃避任何事情。
On Morrison Avenue, the block we lived on, he was considered the mayor of the block.
在我们居住的街区莫里森大道上，他被认为是该街区的市长。
Any time there was a dispute that had to be settled, they would actually come and ask him, "What do you think, Hy?" Or, if there were strangers coming through the neighborhood and they needed to be told to get out of there, they'd get him.
每当有争议需要解决时，他们实际上都会过来问他：“你觉得怎么样，Hy？”或者，如果有陌生人经过附近，需要告诉他们离开那里，他们就会抓住他。
The scenes I remember are that people would gather in front of our window and they'd yell, "Hymie.
我记得的场景是人们聚集在我们的窗前，他们会大喊：“海米。
Hey, Hymie." And he'd come to the window.
嘿，海米。”他来到了窗前。
And he would adjudicate from the window.
他会在窗口进行裁决。
He would say, "No. No, you shouldn't do that." And, "He should do this.
他会说：“不。不，你不应该那样做。”并且，“他应该这样做。
And, "You get that.
并且，“你明白了。
Let him alone." It was like the judge.
让他去吧。”这就像法官一样。
Here they come, baby.
他们来了，宝贝。
Yeah, watch him now.
是的，现在注意他。
Hey, ya.
嘿，是的。
[BIRD SCREECH] Hy Meyerowitz Hello.
[鸟尖叫] Hy Meyerowitz 你好。
Hello.
你好。
Hello.
你好。
Hello.
你好。
No. Joel Meyerowitz Does that remind you of Melvin?
不。Joel Meyerowitz 这会让你想起 Melvin 吗？
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Joel Meyerowitz That's what I was thinking.
乔尔·迈耶罗维茨 我就是这么想的。
Yeah.
是的。
You didn't think of the neighbor that time.
那一次你没有想到邻居。
Do you remember Melvin?
你还记得梅尔文吗？
Hy Meyerowitz Yeah, sure, I remember him.
海·迈耶罗维茨 是的，当然，我记得他。
What was Melvin?
梅尔文是什么？
Hy Meyerowitz It was a little Chinese-- a little bird.
海·迈耶罗维茨 这是一只小中国人——一只小鸟。
A parakeet.
一只长尾小鹦鹉。
Hy Meyerowitz Parakeet, right.
Hy Meyerowitz 长尾小鹦鹉，右。
I didn't think of the--
我没想到——
Do you remember the things that Melvin said?
你还记得梅尔文说过的话吗？
He called to us.
他打电话给我们。
He spoke to us, and he also called his name out a lot.
他和我们说话，还经常喊他的名字。
Hi, I'm Melvin.
嗨，我是梅尔文。
Hi, Melvin.
嗨，梅尔文。
Isn't it, "Hi Melvin?"
不是吗，“嗨，梅尔文？”
Melvin Belvin?
梅尔文·贝尔文？
Joel Meyerowitz I'm Melvin Meyerowitz.
乔尔·迈耶罗维茨 我是梅尔文·迈耶罗维茨。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
[LAUGHS] Joel Meyerowitz Can you tell me the story of the time he--
[笑] Joel Meyerowitz 你能告诉我他当时的故事吗——
I can't tell you about it.
我不能告诉你这件事。
Look at this.
看看这个。
I can't tell you about it.
我不能告诉你这件事。
And look at this.
看看这个。
Another one coming.
又一个来了。
Hi, boys.
嗨，孩子们。
Hello.
你好。
Hello.
你好。
We know you.
我们认识你。
We know your grandfather.
我们认识你的祖父。
Pop, remember how he used to say my name is Melvin Meyerowitz, I'm a Jewish bird?
爸爸，还记得他以前怎么说我的名字叫梅尔文·迈耶罗维茨，我是一只犹太鸟吗？
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Joel Meyerowitz That comes back to you?
乔尔·迈耶罗维茨（Joel Meyerowitz）你又想起了这一点吗？
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Joel Meyerowitz Remember Dr. Goldberg came to visit Mom when she was sick?
乔尔·迈耶罗维茨 还记得妈妈生病时戈德伯格医生来看望她吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Joel Meyerowitz Do you remember the time the bird flew away across the Bronx?
乔尔·迈耶罗维茨 你还记得那只鸟飞过布朗克斯的那次吗？
He went out the door on Mom's shoulder and he flew away?
他扛着妈妈的肩膀出了门，然后就飞走了？
And we were all so heartbroken that the bird was gone.
鸟儿不见了，我们都很伤心。
And then some woman called up.
然后有一个女人打来电话。
Do you remember?
你还记得吗？
She called Mom and she said, "Do you have a bird named Melvin?" My mother said, "Yeah, we have a bird.
她打电话给妈妈，她说：“你有一只叫梅尔文的鸟吗？”妈妈说：“是的，我们有一只鸟。
It was a green and yellow parakeet." And the woman said, "Well, the bird landed on my window and said, 'My name is Melvin Meyerowitz.
那是一只绿色和黄色的长尾小鹦鹉。”女人说，“好吧，那只鸟落在我的窗户上，说：‘我的名字是梅尔文·迈耶罗维茨。
I'm a Jewish bird.' And I looked you up in the phone book.
我是一只犹太鸟。我在电话簿里查过你。
And I called a Meyerowitz, and they said, 'Oh, no, that's my brother Hy's bird." We went and we got the bird back.
我打电话给迈耶罗维茨，他们说，‘哦，不，那是我兄弟海的鸟。’我们去了，把鸟拿回来了。
Do you remember that?
你还记得吗？
Come on.
来吧。
You want to go?
你想去吗？
You want to go-- don't fall.
你想去——别摔倒。
Take it easy.
放轻松。
[BIRD SCREECH] Hy Meyerowitz Take it easy.
[鸟尖叫] Hy Meyerowitz 放轻松。
[BIRD SCREECH] Hy Meyerowitz Do you want to go?
[鸟尖叫] Hy Meyerowitz 你想去吗？
With the onset of memory loss, it's not only his memories that are fading away, but it's the memories that I shared with him that are fading away.
随着失忆的发生，不仅是他的记忆在消失，我和他分享的记忆也在消失。
So I could no longer say to him, "Hey, Pop.
所以我不能再对他说：“嘿，爸爸。
Remember, we did this," and have him say, "Yes, that was fantastic," remember it.
记住，我们做到了，”然后让他说，“是的，那太棒了，”记住它。
So I found myself progressively left alone with my memories.
所以我发现自己逐渐只剩下我的记忆了。
And then you look at your own memories and you realize, I've got this handful of really insignificant things, and I've made them my world, my world of memory.
然后你看看自己的记忆，你就会意识到，我有这么一些微不足道的东西，我把它们变成了我的世界，我的记忆世界。
And it's astonishing how the few things that I recall to share with him are minor notes, you know, the bird or the handful of things that I ask him.
令人惊讶的是，我记得与他分享的几件事都是次要的笔记，你知道，那只鸟或我问他的一些事情。
So, that was a lesson, for me, about what it is that rises up out of our experience that we hold onto.
所以，这对我来说是一个教训，告诉我们从我们所坚持的经验中会产生什么。
I want to ask you a few questions about the family.
我想问你一些关于家庭的问题。
About our family?
关于我们的家庭？
Joel Meyerowitz About our family.
乔尔·迈耶罗维茨 关于我们的家庭。
Yes.
是的。
Joel Meyerowitz You've got three sons.
乔尔·迈耶罗维茨 你有三个儿子。
Yes.
是的。
Joel Meyerowitz What are their names?
乔尔·迈耶罗维茨 他们的名字是什么？
Joel, Ricky-- Joel Meyerowitz And who's your youngest son?
乔尔、瑞奇——乔尔·迈耶罗维茨 那么谁是你最小的儿子？
The youngest one is-- I think it's David but I don't remember his name any more.
最小的一个是——我想是大卫，但我不记得他的名字了。
Joel, Rick, and-- Hy Meyerowitz Joel, Ricky, and-- yeah.
乔尔、瑞克，还有——海·迈耶罗维茨 乔尔、瑞克，还有——是的。
Do you know what Rick does to make a living, what his career is?
你知道瑞克靠什么谋生吗？他的职业是什么？
Well, he tries to do a lot of stuff.
嗯，他尝试做很多事情。
If he were following me, he'd be doing it on the crook, but--
如果他跟踪我，他就会不择手段，但是——
What's he famous for?
他凭什么出名？
Hy Meyerowitz Ricky?
你好迈耶罗维茨瑞奇吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Hy Meyerowitz Well, in the first place, he's my kid.
Hy Meyerowitz 嗯，首先，他是我的孩子。
You are also.
你也是。
And because that alone will get you enough fame.
因为仅此一点就能让你获得足够的名气。
Ricky?
瑞奇？
Rick is a half-time, a part-time-- that book, I don't know the trade name.
里克是一名半职、兼职——那本书，我不知道商品名。
OK, you're getting closer, Pop.
好吧，你已经接近了，爸爸。
Just try.
试试吧。
Try to think about what Rick does.
试着想想瑞克做了什么。
Rick?
瑞克？
Rick is an artist.
里克是一位艺术家。
Joel Meyerowitz Right.
乔尔·迈耶罗维茨 对。
You got it.
你明白了。
Not?
不是吗？
Joel Meyerowitz You got it.
乔尔·迈耶罗维茨 你明白了。
You got it right.
你说对了。
And I'm Joel.
我是乔尔。
What do I do?
我该怎么办？
Ah, you're a doll.
啊，你是个洋娃娃。
You're my best number one for--
你是我最好的第一——
Come on, get serious, Pop.
来吧，认真点吧，爸爸。
Do you remember what it is I do?
你还记得我是做什么的吗？
What do I do?
我该怎么办？
You make money.
你赚钱了。
[LAUGHS] I'll tell you what.
[笑]我会告诉你什么。
I'll give it to you straight off the street.
我会直接在街上给你。
What's my profession?
我的职业是什么？
Hy Meyerowitz What's, what?
海·迈耶罗维茨 什么，什么？
What's my profession?
我的职业是什么？
Hy Meyerowitz What's your most attachment?
Hy Meyerowitz 你最执着的是什么？
What's my profession?
我的职业是什么？
Hy Meyerowitz Your profession?
海·迈耶罗维茨 你的职业？
Now I've got it figured out.
现在我已经弄清楚了。
I don't know, a crook, or a thief, or whatever.
我不知道，是骗子，还是小偷，还是别的什么。
You're known as an artist, serious artist, in the art field.
您在艺术领域被称为艺术家，严肃的艺术家。
OK.
好的。
What about Stevie?
史蒂维呢？
What's Stevie's business?
史蒂维有什么生意？
Stevie?
史蒂维？
I don't know.
我不知道。
Joel Meyerowitz Does it bother you that you can't remember your kid's names sometimes?
Joel Meyerowitz 有时您记不住孩子的名字，您是否因此而烦恼？
And you can't remember what they do?
你不记得他们做了什么？
Well, I tell you, yeah.
好吧，我告诉你，是的。
I see them.
我看到他们了。
Hello.
你好。
Goodbye.
再见。
And that's it.
就是这样。
I'm not complaining.
我没有抱怨。
Is it hard to see him like this?
看到他这样是不是很难受？
Does it feel painful?
是不是感觉很痛？
Honestly, It's sad.
老实说，很难过。
I mean, I have a feeling of sadness.
我的意思是，我有一种悲伤的感觉。
But I also have a feeling of acceptance.
但我也有一种接受的感觉。
We've been apart for 20 years in the mutual prime of our lives.
我们已经分开20年了，正值我们各自的青春年华。
When I was raising my children and he was a grandparent, we weren't together.
当我抚养我的孩子而他是祖父母时，我们并不在一起。
And so, I guess, I'm just accepting of where he is.
所以，我想，我只是接受他的处境。
If we had been together for 20 years, and I had seen the decline, and I had been relating to him emotionally and lovingly all that time, I might feel a deeper sadness.
如果我们在一起20年，我看到了他的衰落，并且一直以来我都充满情感和爱意地与他相处，我可能会感到更深的悲伤。
But, even though he's my father, the distance that we've been apart all these years has put some kind of a buffer in there.
但是，尽管他是我的父亲，这些年来我们分开的距离已经在其中设置了某种缓冲。
So this is the guy that I know now.
这就是我现在认识的人。
We have a much closer relationship in the way we see each other and talk to each other and have continuity.
我们彼此见面、交谈的方式更加密切，并且具有连续性。
I just know, at one point, you said to him he was your hero.
我只知道，在某一时刻，你对他说他是你的英雄。
Actually, I thought it was so sweet.
事实上，我觉得这很甜蜜。
And I thought it must be hard to see--
我想这一定很难看——
--your hero fall.
——你的英雄倒下了。
Sasha Meyerowitz Yeah, right.
萨莎·迈耶罗维茨 是的，没错。
Well, he was my hero, my childhood hero, you know?
嗯，他是我的英雄，我儿时的英雄，你知道吗？
But that's so far away.
但那是那么遥远。
I can't relate to the sadness of that.
我无法体会那种悲伤。
I mean, I love him in that unequivocal way that a child loves a parent.
我的意思是，我以孩子爱父母的方式明确地爱他。
And I feel, when I care for him, a kind of, I guess, a renewal or a rebirth of feeling in this period.
我觉得，当我关心他时，我想，这段时间的感觉有一种更新或重生。
I know, when I take him after a shower and I rub him down and I actually feel his head in my hand and I feel his flesh in my hands, it's been many years since I had that kind of contact with my father.
我知道，当我洗完澡后把他抱起来，揉搓他时，我真的感觉到他的头在我手里，我感觉到他的肉在我手里，我已经很多年没有和父亲有过这样的接触了。
And it was a little strange at first.
一开始有点奇怪。
I thought, what's it like to rub this other person's body, touch this other person's body?
我想，摩擦别人的身体、触摸别人的身体是什么感觉？
There's a slight deference.
有一点点尊重。
And then I realize it's my pop, you know?
然后我意识到这是我的流行音乐，你知道吗？
And he's in need.
他有需要。
He can't take care of himself this way.
这样他就无法照顾自己了。
Mom?
妈妈？
OK, here's Papa, Mom.
好的，爸爸、妈妈来了。
Hold on.
坚持住。
OK.
好的。
Here comes Dad.
爸爸来了。
Joel?
乔尔？
Is it my Joel?
是我的乔尔吗？
Don't you know who I am?
你不知道我是谁吗？
Who?
谁？
What do you mean how come I'm on the phone?
你说我怎么会打电话？
Don't get mad at me.
别生我的气。
Don't get mad at me.
别生我的气。
It's very important because I've been traveling.
这非常重要，因为我一直在旅行。
I think my father had a classic marriage of his generation.
我认为我父亲的婚姻是他那一代人的经典。
He loved my mother.
他爱我的母亲。
She was beautiful and hot-tempered, an exciting person to be with.
她美丽又脾气暴躁，是一个令人兴奋的人。
But he wanted something from her that either he didn't know how to get or she couldn't give.
但他想要从她那里得到一些东西，要么他不知道如何得到，要么她无法给予。
And that was a kind of mother love that he, himself, hadn't experienced.
而那是一种他自己没有经历过的母爱。
Oh, yes.
哦是的。
I'm OK.
我可以。
No, I'm not having a good time.
不，我过得不太好。
Are you having a good time?
你玩得开心吗？
You are, really?
你真的是吗？
OK.
好的。
I want you to be healthy and strong and smile, Sally.
我希望你健康、坚强、微笑，莎莉。
You know, his mother had been bedridden after his birth.
要知道，他的母亲在他出生后就一直卧床不起。
And then she died soon after, so he never really knew her.
但不久她就去世了，所以他从来没有真正了解过她。
And that's the deepest groove in his memory, which is, I think, unrequited love.
那是他记忆中最深的沟渠，我想，那就是单相思。
Don't get down to judge this because, right now, I'm beginning to face one of Joel's tests.
不要对此做出评判，因为现在我正开始面临乔尔的一项考验。
And I will be back home, maybe, who knows, a couple of months from now.
也许几个月后我就会回家，谁知道呢。
I don't know, Sally.
我不知道，莎莉。
Would you go with me the next trip?
下次旅行你愿意和我一起去吗？
Would you go with me the next trip?
下次旅行你愿意和我一起去吗？
OK.
好的。
All right, babe.
好吧，宝贝。
Take care, sweetheart.
保重，亲爱的。
Be careful, will you?
小心一点，好吗？
Be careful.
当心。
Bye-bye.
再见。
And I think that, from my point of view now, that, if he had really just loved my mother without demanding something from her or needing something from her, which was that childhood need, that she probably would have just loved him back for the kind, warm, funny man that he was.
我认为，从我现在的角度来看，如果他真的只是爱我的母亲，而不向她索取什么或需要她的什么，这是童年的需要，那么她可能会因为他是一个善良、温暖、有趣的男人而爱他。
But, because there was something that he was demanding, she couldn't give it to him.
但是，因为他有一些要求，她不能给他。
A kind of perverse logic of relationship occurred.
出现了一种不正当的关系逻辑。
She's mad.
她生气了。
She's mad about something.
她因为某件事而生气。
She's mad about me.
她对我很生气。
I didn't do nothing.
我什么也没做。
Why is she mad?
她为什么生气？
Hy Meyerowitz She's mad that's all.
Hy Meyerowitz 她只是生气而已。
She sounded very, very bad.
她听起来非常非常糟糕。
She sounded like she didn't care.
她听起来好像并不在意。
Oh, sure.
哦，当然。
Joel Meyerowitz Which is why she was mad that you didn't call.
乔尔·迈耶罗维茨：这就是为什么她因为你没有打电话而生气。
I waver also, when I think of her being by herself.
当我想到她独自一人时，我也动摇了。
And I would rather be there than be here.
我宁愿在那里也不愿在这里。
But you're having such a good time here.
但你在这里过得很开心。
Yeah.
是的。
I'm, to my limits, I'm having what I like.
我在我的极限内，拥有我喜欢的东西。
And I would love to be involved with [INAUDIBLE].
我很乐意参与[听不清]。
But the idea is that I always have to include Mama.
但我的想法是我总是必须包括妈妈。
Throughout the trip he asked for Sally every single day.
在整个旅途中，他每天都要求见莎莉。
"Where's Sally?" "Where's Mom," thinking that she should have been in the car next to him.
“莎莉在哪儿？” “妈妈在哪里，”心想她应该在他旁边的车里。
Sally.
莎莉.
Did you leave Sally upstairs there?
你把莎莉留在楼上了吗？
No kidding?
没开玩笑吧？
Right?
正确的？
Because I noticed, right here, that there's no Sally.
因为我注意到，就在这里，没有莎莉。
I thought this was Sally all bundled up, and I see it's not bundled up.
我以为这是莎莉裹得严严实实的，我发现它没有裹得严严实实的。
It's your pillow.
这是你的枕头。
That bed pillow's going to have to be your Sally for the next two weeks, though.
不过，在接下来的两周里，那个枕头将成为你的莎莉。
Yeah, yeah, the pillow.
对对对，枕头。
Oh, you guys are starting to pull tricks on me now.
哦，你们现在开始捉弄我了。
I know.
我知道。
I know.
我知道。
I know.
我知道。
Well, is she--was she here?
嗯，她——她在这儿吗？
Jesus Christ, almighty.
耶稣基督，全能。
I know she's not in the trunk.
我知道她不在后备箱里。
You wouldn't do that to her.
你不会那样对她。
I'm not even going to come through this Joel.
我什至不会经历这个乔尔。
You know, I'm not the smartest or the cutest in the service.
你知道，我不是服务中最聪明或最可爱的。
If my mommy don't come up, and then don't come down in five minutes, I want to know where she is.
如果我妈妈不出现，五分钟后也不下来，我想知道她在哪里。
This is my wife.
这是我的妻子。
Yeah, or the bed is in the trunk.
是的，或者床在后备箱里。
I wouldn't be surprised.
我不会感到惊讶。
There was a time, when we were driving with her in Florida before we made the film, and she was sitting right next to him.
有一次，在拍摄这部电影之前，我们和她一起开车去佛罗里达，她就坐在他旁边。
And he leaned over to me and he said, "Where's Mom?" And I said, "Well, who's sitting next to you?" And he looked over at this person sitting next to him and he said, "Where's Sally?
他向我倾身问道：“妈妈在哪儿？”我说：“那么，坐在你旁边的是谁？”他看着坐在他旁边的这个人，说道：“莎莉在哪里？
That's not Sally."
那不是莎莉。”
When my father was young, he was a wonderful dancer and athlete and a natural comic.
我父亲年轻时是一位出色的舞蹈家和运动员，也是一位天生的喜剧演员。
And I guess Charlie Chaplin was the rage.
我猜查理·卓别林当时风靡一时。
And, just as there were Elvis imitators, there were Chaplin imitators.
而且，正如有猫王模仿者一样，也有卓别林模仿者。
And, my father, he became a Chaplin imitator.
而且，我的父亲，他成了卓别林的模仿者。
And he had that act that, I guess, he took on the road or around the vaudeville circuit in New York.
我猜他在纽约的公路或歌舞杂耍表演中做过这样的表演。
I was trying to fit in myself too, all the years, with the joking.
多年来，我也试图通过开玩笑来融入自己。
I was trying to be a Chaplin.
我想成为卓别林。
I didn't know if I was doing that right or wrong.
我不知道我这样做是对还是错。
But I saw that poor little guy that he'd bend down, pick something up, everybody'd give him a kick in the ass.
但我看到那个可怜的小家伙，他弯下腰，捡起一些东西，每个人都会踢他的屁股。
That was what I used to see.
这就是我过去所看到的。
That is what I didn't want to happen to me.
这就是我不想发生在我身上的事情。
What was it that you liked about Charlie Chaplin, that made you want to do the Charlie Chaplin act?
您喜欢查理·卓别林的哪一点，让您想出演查理·卓别林的表演？
He was a giant in the height of a little midget.
他是一个身材矮小的巨人。
He was a little guy righting all the wrongs, helping others.
他是一个纠正所有错误、帮助别人的小人物。
As he'd pass by, we'd pat him on the top of the head.
当他经过时，我们会拍拍他的头顶。
He was remembered out there.
他在那里被人记住了。
And I just meditate, look at the little party.
我只是冥想，看看这个小聚会。
And the little person had no money or no nothing.
而这个小人物既没有钱，也没有什么。
And he was going-- on the inside.
他要去——在里面。
He'd come out here, like this, like shake his shoulders and then traveled on.
他从这里出来，就像这样，摇晃肩膀，然后继续前行。
And that was what I loved, the goodness, the goodness.
这就是我所爱的，善良，善良。
And not everybody understood him.
并不是每个人都理解他。
But those that understood him, they would put their arm around him, and he would do the same.
但那些理解他的人会用手臂搂住他，他也会这样做。
But it was a beautiful deed for the day.
但这对今天来说是一件美丽的事。
Did you feel connected to him in that way?
你有这样的感觉和他有联系吗？
Always.
总是。
Always.
总是。
Always.
总是。
Joel Meyerowitz Aw.
乔尔·迈耶罗维茨 AW.
With Alzeimer's disease, most memory finally dissolves.
患有阿尔茨海默病后，大多数记忆最终都会消失。
And, even though he was a man who was easily lovable, I think he forgot that these were his qualities.
而且，尽管他是一个很容易讨人喜欢的人，但我认为他忘记了这些是他的品质。
And that he was, in fact, loved by people faded from his memory.
事实上，他被人们所爱的事也从他的记忆中消失了。
And, at the end of his life, he remembers a few of the more painful things-- that he's a motherless child, that he was not loved the way he wanted to be loved.
而且，在他生命的尽头，他记得一些更痛苦的事情——他是一个没有母亲的孩子，他没有以他想要的方式被爱。
And it's amazing that, with the murkiness of Alzheimer's clouding everything, that something as primal as being an unloved child stayed with him.
令人惊奇的是，尽管阿尔茨海默氏症的阴暗笼罩了一切，但像一个不受爱的孩子这样原始的东西却一直伴随着他。
Well, everybody would show a little bit of something to me that I was accepted.
好吧，每个人都会向我展示一些我被接受的东西。
And they would talk to me.
他们会跟我说话。
And they'd pat me on the top of the head or they'd put their hands around me.
他们会拍拍我的头顶，或者用手搂住我。
I'm home.
我到家了。
I loved everybody.
我爱每个人。
I loved everybody, but nobody saw me.
我爱每个人，但没有人看见我。
Nobody remembered me.
没有人记得我。
Nobody knew me and nobody saw me, but I was there.
没有人认识我，也没有人看到我，但我就在那里。
And, to this very day, I have the same thing.
而且，直到今天，我也有同样的事情。
I have poor Mommy and she doesn't see me.
我有可怜的妈妈，她看不见我。
She doesn't see me.
她没有看到我。
Aw, Pop.
噢，波普。
Well, your boys saw you.
好吧，你的孩子们看到了你。
We all saw you.
我们都看到你了。
I loved when you were the strong man in the neighborhood, but I loved when you were the Chaplin figure and the comic.
我喜欢你是邻居中的强者，但我喜欢你是卓别林人物和喜剧演员。
I loved the way you drove the car.
我喜欢你开车的方式。
You were such a great driver.
你是一位很棒的司机。
I loved the way you talked to people.
我喜欢你与人交谈的方式。
You could talk to the big guys or the little guys, and you made them all the same, Pop.
你可以和大人物或小人物交谈，你让他们都一样，爸爸。
I used to think of you as the great equalizer.
我曾经认为你是伟大的均衡者。
You could take a guy who was a doctor, or a principal of the school, or a business man, and you can take another guy, who was just an ordinary worker, and you would treat them the same.
你可以带一个医生、校长、商人，也可以带另一个普通工人，你会一视同仁地对待他们。
And you would bring them all to the same level, and that would be the level of laughter.
你会把他们都带到同一个水平，那就是笑的水平。
You saw me.
你看到了我。
You saw Papa.
你看到了爸爸。
Joel Meyerowitz That's right.
乔尔·迈耶罗维茨 没错。
Joel Meyerowitz; his father, Hy; his son, Sasha.
乔尔·迈耶罗维茨；他的父亲，Hy；他的儿子萨沙。
In the year since they recorded that footage, Hy has died.
自从他们录制这段视频的那一年，海就去世了。
Joel and Sasha cut their footage into a film.
乔尔和萨莎将他们的镜头剪辑成电影。
It's called, Pop.
它的名字叫，波普。
It aired on the PBS show, Frontline.
它在 PBS 节目《前线》中播出。
This September, Joel is putting out a book, called Aftermath , with his large-format photos from the Ground Zero site in New York City.
今年九月，乔尔将出版一本书，名为《后果》，其中包含他在纽约市归零地遗址拍摄的大幅照片。
Coming up, can a dad try too hard?
来了，爸爸会不会太努力了？
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio and Public Radio International when our program continues.
一分钟后，芝加哥公共广播电台和国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose a theme, invite a variety of writers and performers to tackle that theme.
当然，我们每周的节目都会选择一个主题，邀请各种作家和表演者来解决这个主题。
Today's program, for Father's Day, we bring you stories of kids trying to care for and protect their dads and dads trying to protect and care for their kids.
今天的父亲节节目，我们为您带来孩子们努力照顾和保护他们的父亲以及父亲们努力保护和照顾他们的孩子的故事。
We've arrived at Act Three of our show.
我们已经到了节目的第三幕了。
Act Three, Age of Enchantment.
第三幕，魔法时代。
Lawrence Weschler is an author and journalist.
劳伦斯·韦施勒是一位作家和记者。
He used to write a lot for The New Yorker magazine.
他曾经为《纽约客》杂志写过很多文章。
This story is about his attempt to protect his daughter, Sarah, from disappointment and to thrill her.
这个故事讲述的是他试图保护女儿莎拉免遭失望并让她兴奋。
And how, with the best of intentions, all of this went awry and led to an odd breach of trust between father and child.
尽管本是善意的，但这一切却出了差错，导致了父亲和孩子之间奇怪的信任破裂。
He and Sarah went into a studio in New York City to tell us this story.
他和莎拉走进纽约市的一个工作室，向我们讲述这个故事。
At the time, Sarah was 11 years old.
当时，莎拉11岁。
The story begins simply enough.
故事的开始很简单。
She would get into very active conversations with the characters in the books while we were reading.
当我们阅读时，她会与书中的人物进行非常活跃的对话。
So, for example, when we were reading Little House on the Prairie there would be these moments where she would interrupt my reading and say, "Wait a second.
举个例子，当我们读《草原上的小屋》时，有时她会打断我的阅读，说：“等一下。
I want to talk to the Indian." And we'd have to go look for a picture of the Indian.
我想和印度人谈谈。”我们还得去找一张印第安人的照片。
And she'd say to the Indian, "Now look, Indian, in a few pages you're going to meet Laura, but you've got to understand.
她会对印第安人说：“印第安人，你看，再过几页你就会见到劳拉，但你必须明白。
I know she's taking your land, but it's not her fault.
我知道她正在夺走你的土地，但这不是她的错。
She's just a kid.
她只是个孩子。
Now, let me talk to Laura." And we'd go back and we'd talk to Laura.
现在，让我和劳拉谈谈。”我们会回去和劳拉谈谈。
And in these things I would take on the role of the Indian, and I'd say things like, "Who's that talking," and so forth.
在这些事情上，我会扮演印第安人的角色，我会说“谁在说话”之类的话。
And we would have these incredibly elaborate conversations.
我们会进行这些令人难以置信的详尽对话。
Do you remember that, Sarah?
你还记得吗，莎拉？
Yes.
是的。
Lawrence Weschler Anyway, this sort of thing would go on all the time.
劳伦斯·韦施勒 不管怎样，这种事情会一直持续下去。
And, at a later point, we began reading The Borrowers series, the series of wonderful books by Mary Noble.
后来，我们开始阅读《借款人》系列，这是玛丽·诺布尔的一系列精彩书籍。
Norton.
诺顿。
Lawrence Weschler Mary-- excuse me.
劳伦斯·韦施勒·玛丽——对不起。
Norton.
诺顿。
Lawrence Weschler By Mary Norton, that's right.
劳伦斯·韦施勒 作者：玛丽·诺顿，没错。
And, well, should Sarah describe what the book is about, maybe?
那么，莎拉应该描述一下这本书的内容吗？
Sure.
当然。
Sarah, explain what the borrowers are like.
莎拉，解释一下借款人是什么样的。
Well, The Borrowers , it's about these little people who are, I think, like four inches tall.
嗯，借款人，是关于这些小人物的，我认为他们大约有四英寸高。
And they live under the floorboards in the house.
他们住在房子的地板下。
And what they do is they take things from people, little things, that they can use around their house.
他们所做的就是从人们那里拿走一些小东西，然后在他们的房子周围使用。
Well, they take pocket watches, and stamps, or pictures on the wall.
嗯，他们会拿怀表、邮票或墙上的照片。
And part of the point about borrowers is that they're not allowed-- are they allowed to talk to people?
关于借款人的部分要点是他们不被允许——他们被允许与人交谈吗？
No. Lawrence Weschler Do you want to talk about that a little bit?
不，Lawrence Weschler 你想谈谈这个吗？
Well, because they think that people can really hurt them because, according to the book, it's happened before.
嗯，因为他们认为人们真的可以伤害他们，因为根据这本书，这种情况以前发生过。
Right.
正确的。
Lawrence Weschler So, anyway, we were reading this book.
劳伦斯·韦施勒（Lawrence Weschler）所以，无论如何，我们正在读这本书。
And one day I came home and Sarah was incredibly excited.
有一天，我回到家，莎拉非常兴奋。
Her face was just glowing.
她的脸容光焕发。
She said, "Daddy!
她说：“爸爸！
You won't believe it!
你不会相信的！
We have borrowers here in our own house!"
我们自己家里也有借款人！”
And my memory is that-- maybe you remember this differently, Sarah, but-- my memory was that she went to a particular place in the basement.
我的记忆是——也许你记得不同，莎拉，但是——我的记忆是她去了地下室的一个特定地方。
And she pointed at this little hole in the wall in the basement near the floor.
她指着地下室墙上靠近地板的这个小洞。
And she said, "I was coming down the stairs.
她说：“我正从楼梯上下来。
And there was one of them standing right there, a little girl.
其中有一个人站在那里，是一个小女孩。
And she was wearing a pink taffeta skirt." That's what you said.
她穿着一条粉色塔夫绸裙子。”这就是你说的。
"And I froze.
“我愣住了。
And she froze.
她愣住了。
And we looked at each other.
我们互相看着对方。
And I knew I wasn't supposed to talk to her, that she shouldn't talk to me, but we just looked at each other.
我知道我不应该和她说话，她也不应该和我说话，但我们只是互相看着对方。
And, after about 30 seconds, she kind of waved her hand, just slightly, and she ran away.
大约 30 秒后，她轻轻地挥了挥手，然后就跑开了。
And it was right there." And Sarah took me to the place where it was.
它就在那里。”莎拉带我去了它所在的地方。
And, Sarah, let me just ask you.
莎拉，让我问你一下。
What do you remember of this?
说到这里你还记得什么？
Well, I remember having seen-- well, you see, it's so strange to say this because I feel like I'm betraying the borrowers, but I still believe in them.
嗯，我记得见过——嗯，你看，这么说很奇怪，因为我觉得我背叛了借款人，但我仍然相信他们。
And, if I ever actually got to meet one, I'd never tell anyone.
而且，如果我真的遇到了一个人，我永远不会告诉任何人。
And I do remember having seen something.
我确实记得看到过一些东西。
And it wasn't really for 30 seconds.
而且实际上并没有持续 30 秒。
It was for, maybe, 10 seconds, and then it ran away.
它大概持续了 10 秒钟，然后就逃跑了。
And, even now when you think about it, you can picture?
而且，即使现在回想起来，你也能想象得到？
You can picture seeing it?
你能想象看到它吗？
Yes.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
And I didn't imagine it.
我没有想到。
It was definitely there.
它肯定就在那里。
And it was a little girl?
而且还是个小女孩？
Sarah Weschler Yeah, I think.
莎拉·韦施勒 是的，我想。
OK.
好的。
Lawrence Weschler And then, over the next few days, Sarah began leaving things for this borrower.
劳伦斯·韦施勒 然后，在接下来的几天里，莎拉开始把东西留给这个借款人。
And the first thing in the morning she would race downstairs to see whether the things had been picked up.
早上第一件事，她会跑下楼看看东西是否已经被捡起来。
Do you remember what kind of things you left?
你还记得你留下了哪些东西吗？
Sometimes I'd leave toothpicks or pieces of food.
有时我会留下牙签或食物碎片。
Kind of an all-purpose tool?
某种万能工具？
Sarah Weschler Yeah.
莎拉·韦施勒 是的。
Anyway, so she would leave these things there.
无论如何，她还是把这些东西留在那里吧。
And she would be so disappointed, and disappointment verging on desolation, that they weren't picked up.
如果他们没有被接走，她会非常失望，失望近乎绝望。
And she'd have long conversations with me.
她会和我进行长时间的交谈。
She said, "Why aren't they picking them up?
她说：“他们为什么不去接他们呢？
Don't they know that I'm giving it to them?" And I would try to explain that, maybe, they were scared, or nervous, or something, that's how borrowers are.
难道他们不知道我给他们了吗？”我会尝试解释说，也许他们很害怕，或者紧张，或者其他什么，借款人就是这样。
But she was so sad.
但她是如此悲伤。
And this went on.
这样的情况一直持续着。
I figured this would end but, at some point, this went on for a week.
我以为这会结束，但在某个时候，这种情况持续了一周。
And I don't know why I did it because it began a cascade of consequences.
我不知道我为什么这么做，因为它引发了一系列后果。
But one night I picked up the stuff and put it in my pocket.
但有一天晚上，我捡起了那东西，放进了口袋里。
And, the next morning, she came bounding up the stairs saying, "Daddy!
第二天早上，她蹦蹦跳跳地跑上楼梯，说道：“爸爸！
You won't believe it!
你不会相信的！
There are borrowers just like I said!
正如我所说，有借款人！
They took the stuff!
他们拿走了东西！
They took the stuff!" And she was transported with delight.
他们拿走了东西！”她欣喜若狂。
And I figured that would be the end of it, but it wasn't.
我以为事情就这样结束了，但事实并非如此。
I started writing to them.
我开始写信给他们。
I started writing letters.
我开始写信。
OK.
好的。
Why don't I ask you to pull out one of those letters, and let's hear what you wrote for the first one.
我为什么不请你拿出其中一封信，让我们听听你为第一封信写了什么。
All right, the first one.
好吧，第一个。
OK.
好的。
Ira Glass Now, you were six at the time, right?
Ira Glass 现在，你当时六岁，对吧？
Dear Borrowers, I have seen you, but I want to meet you.
亲爱的借款人，我见过你们，但我想见见你们。
If I do, I will not tell anyone without your permission.
如果我这样做，未经您的许可我不会告诉任何人。
Agreed, or not agreed?
同意还是不同意？
And then this is the borrower explaining--
然后这是借款人的解释——
Just one second.
只需一秒钟。
So what happened is that, that note on a little yellow Post-it, lay by the hole for several days.
所发生的事情是，一张黄色小便利贴上的便条在洞里放了好几天。
And for several mornings Sarah would be completely devastated that it had not been answered.
连续几个早上，莎拉都会因为没有得到答复而彻底崩溃。
So I went through several days of not quite knowing what to do because she was getting more and more sad about this and more concerned.
所以我度过了几天不知道该怎么办的日子，因为她对此越来越难过，也越来越担心。
And so then I figured, well, it won't do any harm to pick up the piece of paper and write a little, tiny message back, which I did.
然后我想，好吧，拿起那张纸并写一条小小的信息不会有任何坏处，我就这样做了。
OK.
好的。
So-- Sarah Weschler Dear Sarah, gosh, this is strange.
所以——莎拉·韦施勒（Sarah Weschler） 亲爱的莎拉，天哪，这很奇怪。
Who are you?
你是谁？
How do you know about borrowers?
您如何了解借款人？
I thought no human beings ever knew about us.
我以为没有人知道我们。
My dad says it's too dangerous for borrowers to meet a human being.
我爸爸说借款人见到人太危险了。
And he even says I mustn't write to you.
他甚至说我不能给你写信。
But maybe, at least, I can write.
但也许，至少，我可以写作。
Will you write back?
你会回信吗？
I hope so.
我希望如此。
I'll keep it a secret from my dad.
我会对我爸爸保密。
Signed, Annabel Lee.
署名：安娜贝尔·李。
PS, I am 11.
PS，我11岁了。
How about you?
你呢？
And so you got this.
所以你得到了这个。
Do you remember getting this letter?
你还记得收到这封信吗？
Mm-hm.
嗯嗯。
Lawrence Weschler Do you remember that morning, what you said when you came up the stairs?
劳伦斯·韦施勒 你还记得那天早上上楼梯时说的话吗？
No. Ira Glass What did she say?
不，艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）她说什么？
Do you remember?
你是否记得？
Oh, she was just, "They are!
哦，她只是说，“他们是！
I told you!
我告诉过你了！
I told you!
我告诉过你了！
And she answered!
她回答了！
She answered!
她回答了！
And she wants me to write back!" And she was over the moon.
她要我回信！”她欣喜若狂。
And she wrote back, immediately.
她立即回信。
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass So, Ren, did you conceive of your borrowers as being descendants of the borrowers in the book?
Ira Glass 那么，Ren，您是否认为您的借款人是书中借款人的后代？
Well, it was unclear.
嗯，目前还不清楚。
I mean, it was a possibility.
我的意思是，这是有可能的。
And it was up to Sarah to keep dredging and find out more.
莎拉需要继续挖掘并找出更多信息。
And so a large part of the correspondences is Sarah doing genealogical work on the family and asking all kinds of questions.
因此，大部分信件都是莎拉对这个家庭进行家谱调查并提出各种问题。
Yeah, I would ask, "What was your grandmother's name?" And it turned out that her grandmother was Arrietty, which is the main character.
是的，我会问：“你祖母叫什么名字？”原来，她的祖母就是主角阿丽埃蒂。
Yeah.
是的。
And she says that she calls her dad Pea, as in a pea pod, because, in the book, the dad is Pod.
她说她称她爸爸为豌豆，就像豌豆荚一样，因为在书中，爸爸就是波德。
Oh.
哦。
Sarah Weschler And then she calls her mom Homie because, in the book, the mother is Homily.
莎拉·韦施勒 然后她称她的妈妈为霍米，因为在书中，母亲是霍米莉。
How long did the letters go back and forth?
信件来来回回用了多长时间？
How many letters were there?
有多少个字母？
I think there were over 17 because I didn't finish counting, but I counted up to 17.
我觉得有超过17个，因为我没数完，但我数到了17个。
And, Ren, during this time, were you frightened about where this was all going to lead, that at some point you would get found out?
而且，任，在这段时间里，你是否害怕这一切会导致什么结果，害怕在某个时候你会被发现？
Well, it was getting strange and, actually, kind of nerve-wracking.
嗯，事情变得很奇怪，而且实际上有点令人伤脑筋。
And I would do things.
我会做事。
I kept on figuring that Sarah was going to grow out of this or that Sarah would make the association that this was kind of like what we used to do when I would read about the Indian or about Laura.
我一直在想，莎拉会从这个问题中成长起来，或者莎拉会联想到这有点像我们以前读到印第安人或劳拉的故事时所做的那样。
I kept on thinking that she would just enjoy that, but she was getting more and more into it.
我一直以为她会喜欢这样，但她越来越投入其中。
And it was becoming more and more involved.
而且它变得越来越复杂。
And the more involved, the more I could see how invested Sarah was in it.
参与得越多，我就越能看到莎拉对此的投入程度。
I mean, it really was the main thing going on in her life during that season.
我的意思是，这确实是那个季节她生活中发生的主要事情。
And, as she began telling friends about it and so forth, the stories had to get more and more elaborate to include all the stray bits of details that were seeping into things.
而且，当她开始向朋友们讲述这件事等等时，故事必须变得越来越复杂，以包含所有渗透到事物中的零散细节。
And I didn't quite know where it was going to go.
我不太知道它会去哪里。
I would do things.
我会做事。
I would send the borrowers on vacations.
我会让借款人去度假。
I'd just have them suddenly disappear for a while.
我只是想让它们突然消失一段时间。
And they'd be gone for a while.
他们会离开一段时间。
And I would hope that, by the time it was over, Sarah would have forgotten.
我希望，当一切结束时，莎拉已经忘记了。
If I had said they'd be gone three weeks, there weeks later on that day there'd be a note for them from Sarah.
如果我说他们会离开三周，那么几周后的那天，莎拉就会给他们一张纸条。
And, Sarah, did you suspect at that point?
莎拉，你当时有怀疑吗？
No. No. The second I suspected it, I was almost sure that it had been him.
不，不，当我怀疑的那一刻，我就几乎确定是他了。
And I just went up and asked him if it was him.
我就走上前问他是不是他。
Why is it that you started to suspect?
为什么你开始怀疑？
Do you remember what happened that made you suspect?
你还记得发生了什么让你怀疑的事情吗？
I think it was sort of the fact-- not his handwriting, actually.
我认为这就是事实——实际上不是他的笔迹。
It was that I would tell my dad, for instance, that I was in the basement and I stuck my finger into this hole, and I felt something sort of silky or something.
例如，我会告诉我爸爸，我在地下室，我把手指伸进这个洞里，我感觉到了某种丝滑的东西。
It was probably just something, an old piece of cloth that was stuck there.
可能只是什么东西，一块旧布粘在那里。
But I felt it, and I told my dad.
但我感觉到了，我告诉了我爸爸。
And it sort of slipped away from my finger.
它就这样从我的手指上溜走了。
And told my dad about it.
并把这件事告诉了我爸爸。
And then, in the next letter, Annabel Lee'd be saying, "Oh, was that you who touched me when I was wearing my silk dress?
然后，在下一封信中，安娜贝尔·李会说：“哦，是你在我穿着丝绸连衣裙时碰了我吗？
And so I started to think I tell my dad things that, sometimes, I'd exaggerate a little bit.
所以我开始认为我告诉爸爸的事情有时会夸大一点。
When I was younger, I exaggerated some things.
当我年轻的时候，我夸大了一些事情。
I made things a little bit more exciting than they might have really been.
我让事情变得比实际情况更令人兴奋。
And then I read the letter, and it had that exaggerated part in it.
然后我读了这封信，里面有那么夸张的部分。
And so I started to go, that didn't really happen.
于是我开始离开，但这并没有真正发生。
I was just adding that to my story.
我只是将其添加到我的故事中。
And so I got--
所以我得到了——
That made you suspicious?
这让你产生了怀疑？
Sarah Weschler Yeah.
莎拉·韦施勒 是的。
And I asked my dad, and--
我问我爸爸，然后——
So what happened there was we had moved to the new house.
所以那里发生的事情是我们搬到了新房子。
We had been there for a couple of months at that point.
那时我们已经在那里呆了几个月了。
And I was down in the basement moving some boxes around.
我在地下室搬运一些盒子。
And Sarah came down there.
莎拉来到了那里。
And, how old?
还有，几岁了？
Lawrence Weschler She's now eight.
劳伦斯·韦施勒 她现在八岁了。
Yeah.
是的。
OK.
好的。
In this story, yeah.
在这个故事里，是的。
Lawrence Weschler At this point in the story, yeah.
劳伦斯·韦施勒（Lawrence Weschler）在故事的这一点上，是的。
And she began.
她开始了。
Her lips were trembling.
她的嘴唇在颤抖。
Her lower lip was trembling.
她的下唇在颤抖。
And she looked at me very firmly as she is quite capable of doing.
她非常坚定地看着我，因为她很有能力做到这一点。
And she said, "Daddy, I'm going to ask you a question now, and you have to tell the truth because it's a sin for daddies to lie to their daughters." And my heart just sank.
她说：“爸爸，我现在要问你一个问题，你必须说实话，因为爸爸对女儿撒谎是一种罪过。”我的心沉了下去。
And she said, "Daddy, are you the one who's been writing Annabel Lee's notes?" And I looked at her.
她说：“爸爸，你是给安娜贝尔·李写笔记的人吗？”我看着她。
And she looked at me.
她看着我。
And there was silence for five or six seconds.
然后沉默了五六秒。
And then I said, "You know, it's kind of complicated.
然后我说：“你知道，这有点复杂。
Can we talk--" and she said, "Daddy, it's not complicated.
我们可以谈谈吗——”她说，“爸爸，这并不复杂。
It's simple.
这很简单。
Are you the one?" And I said, "Well, can we talk about it later?" She said, "No. Just tell me.
你是那个人吗？”我说：“好吧，我们可以稍后再讨论吗？”她说：“不。告诉我吧。
Are you the one or not?" And I took a big breath and I said, "Yes, it is me." And she broke into--
你是不是那个人？”我深吸了一口气，说道：“是的，就是我。”然后她突然说道——
I was crying.
我哭了。
Lawrence Weschler Oh, god.
劳伦斯·韦施勒 噢，上帝。
She was sobbing.
她在抽泣。
I was so sad.
我很伤心。
Lawrence Weschler She started sobbing.
劳伦斯·韦施勒 她开始抽泣。
It was, easily, the most wrenching thing that had happened in my parenthood up to that point.
很容易，这是我为人父母以来发生过的最痛苦的事情。
I mean, I had totally blown it.
我的意思是，我完全搞砸了。
I just felt total disaster.
我只感到彻底的灾难。
And I was crying.
我哭了。
And she was crying.
她在哭。
And, you know, we were both kind of clutching each other and holding each other.
而且，你知道，我们都紧紧地拥抱着对方。
And we were really in a trap there.
我们真的陷入了陷阱。
We were down the hole at that point.
那时我们已经陷入困境了。
We were in big trouble.
我们遇到了大麻烦。
And, suddenly, this kind of calm came over Sarah's face.
突然间，莎拉的脸上出现了这种平静。
It was kind of like the sun rising in the morning.
这有点像早晨太阳升起的感觉。
And her forehead stopped being furrowed.
她的额头不再皱起。
It became smooth.
它变得光滑了。
And she just looked at me, and she said, "Daddy, don't you realize?
她只是看着我，然后说：“爸爸，你没意识到吗？
You've ruined everything because there are borrowers.
你毁了一切，因为有借款人。
And you were taking the letters before they were able to get them." And she had solved everything there because, among other things, that was what she was going to be able to tell her friends.
你在他们拿到信之前就把它们拿走了。”她已经解决了那里的所有问题，因为除其他外，这就是她将能够告诉她的朋友们的事情。
And they could all chortle about what kind of a crazy father she had.
他们都会嘲笑她有一个多么疯狂的父亲。
And it was amazing.
这太棒了。
She found a way of getting us out of this disaster that, I suppose, I had fashioned for us.
她找到了一种让我们摆脱这场灾难的方法，我想，这是我为我们设计的。
Because I remember saying that you should have left it there.
因为我记得说过你应该把它留在那里。
Maybe they would have really written back.
也许他们真的会回信。
You shouldn't have done it because maybe they would have actually written back to me, finally, at some point.
你不应该这样做，因为也许他们最终会在某个时候给我回信。
Like I said earlier, I still believe in them.
正如我之前所说，我仍然相信他们。
And I know that may sound really baby-ish to some kids who might listen to this, but I still believe in them.
我知道这对于一些可能听这个的孩子来说可能听起来很幼稚，但我仍然相信他们。
And when I told Megan, my friend, when I told Megan that it had been my dad, she stopped believing in them.
当我告诉梅根，我的朋友，当我告诉梅根那是我父亲时，她不再相信他们了。
And she'd just, whenever I'd talk about it from then on, she'd laugh at me and tell me, "Oh, Sarah, stop being a baby." Because she's a year older than me, so she, at that time, she still considered herself really superior to me even though we were best friends.
从那时起，每当我谈论这件事时，她都会嘲笑我并告诉我，“哦，莎拉，别再像个孩子了。”因为她比我大一岁,所以她当时呢,虽然我们是最好的朋友,但是她还是觉得自己真的比我优越。
And she said, "Oh, Sarah, stop being a baby.
她说：“哦，莎拉，别再像个孩子了。
It's not true.
这不是真的。
It's just not true." And I said, "But I've seen them." And she said, "No, you haven't.
这不是真的。”我说：“但我见过他们。”她说：“不，你没有。
You just imagined it.
你只是想象而已。
And it's not true.
但这不是真的。
And you can just stop imagining it.
你可以停止想象。
And stop telling me about it because it's not true."
别再告诉我这件事了，因为这不是真的。”
How do you feel about it now when you look at those letters?
当你现在看到这些信时，你有什么感觉？
I don't know.
我不知道。
Sometimes, when I read them, I still can think, "I wonder why this happened to her?
有时，当我读到它们时，我仍然会想：“我想知道为什么这件事发生在她身上？
I wonder why that happened to her?
我想知道为什么她会发生这样的事？
I wonder why she would say that?" Even though I'd know that it was my dad writing to me, I still, sometimes, think of there being an Annabel Lee somewhere out there.
我想知道她为什么会这么说？”尽管我知道这是我父亲写给我的，但有时我仍然会想到外面某个地方有一个安娜贝尔·李。
When we pulled out the box last night, of letters, did it bring you pleasure to look at those letters?
昨晚，当我们拿出装着信件的盒子时，您看到这些信件是否感到高兴？
You look at it a lot?
你看很多吗？
Sarah Weschler Yeah.
莎拉·韦施勒 是的。
And what do you think when you look at it?
当你看到它时你有什么感想？
Well, now, looking back, it was sort of nice of him to do that.
好吧，现在回想起来，他这么做真是太好了。
Because I remember, when it was happening and after I had figured out that it was him, I had asked him, "Well, can we still write to each other?" And we never really, actually, wrote to each other after that.
因为我记得，当事情发生时，当我发现是他之后，我问他：“那么，我们还能互相写信吗？”从那以后我们就再也没有真正给对方写过信。
But I just thought, after a while, that it was a nice thing.
但过了一段时间，我就觉得这是一件好事。
And that, even though, maybe there was no borrower writing to me, there was, maybe, having my dad make up this whole family was, maybe, just as special.
而且，尽管也许没有借款人写信给我，但也许，让我父亲组成整个家庭也同样特别。
Or maybe almost as special as having actually been writing to a borrower.
或者也许几乎和实际写信给借款人一样特别。
Sarah, can I ask you, what do you think the lesson of this story is?
莎拉，我能问你一下，你认为这个故事的教训是什么？
That is, if parents hear you tell this story, you and your dad tell this story on the radio, and, if another parent gets into this kind of situation, what's your advice for them?
也就是说，如果父母听到你讲这个故事，你和你的父亲在广播中讲这个故事，并且，如果其他父母遇到这种情况，你对他们有什么建议？
Should they go along with it?
他们应该同意吗？
Should they write letters, and should they pick up stuff?
他们应该写信吗？他们应该捡东西吗？
I don't know, because it was really fun for me to have this kind of experience.
我不知道，因为有这样的经历对我来说真的很有趣。
But, when I found out that it was my dad writing, it was really upsetting.
但是，当我发现这是我爸爸写的时候，我真的很难过。
And so I just-- I don't know.
所以我只是——我不知道。
I think that I wouldn't.
我想我不会。
If I were a parent and I had that kind of thing, I would not pick it up.
如果我是父母，我有这样的东西，我就不会接它。
You would not?
你不会吗？
Sarah Weschler No. I would keep encouraging my kid and my child to keep on writing to the borrowers and trying to get them to write back, but I wouldn't pick it up.
莎拉·韦施勒 (Sarah Weschler) 不会。我会一直鼓励我的孩子和我的孩子继续写信给借款人并试图让他们回信，但我不会接。
What if they keep coming to you so sad every morning, the way you were sad coming to me, and just pleading, "I wish.
如果他们每天早上都如此悲伤地来找你，就像你悲伤地来找我一样，只是恳求，“我希望。
I wish.
我希望。
I wish they would come?" Can you imagine ever picking it up?
我希望他们能来？”你能想象拿起它吗？
I don't think it's fair to lead someone on like that.
我认为这样引导某人是不公平的。
Ren, as far as you're concerned, what's the lesson of this story?
任先生，就你而言，这个故事给你带来的教训是什么？
If you had this to do again, if you would get into this situation again or if you could go back with the benefit of hindsight, what would you do?
如果你能再做一次，如果你会再次陷入这种情况，或者如果你可以事后诸葛亮，你会怎么做？
Would you have left the letters?
你会留下这些信吗？
I mean, I'd like to say that, had I to live it over again, I wouldn't do it this way.
我想说的是，如果我能重来一次，我不会这样做。
But I'm not sure because it started so naturally.
但我不确定，因为它开始得很自然。
And, in the end, by the way, what I'd have to say is probably the most poignant, closest, amazing moment I've had, you know, the moment I'll remember of a particular phase of my life, is the holding onto each other in the basement, both of us crying, but Sarah not running away and Sarah saving us.
最后，顺便说一句，我想说的可能是我经历过的最令人心酸、最亲密、最令人惊奇的时刻，你知道，我会记得我生命中某个特定阶段的那一刻，就是在地下室里互相拥抱，我们俩都哭了，但莎拉没有逃跑，莎拉拯救了我们。
And that kind of cemented our relationship in a really wonderful way.
这以一种非常美妙的方式巩固了我们的关系。
It might not end that way for everybody.
对于每个人来说，事情可能不会以这种方式结束。
Yeah, it might not end that way for everybody.
是的，可能不会对每个人都这样结束。
That's true.
这是真的。
I continue to puzzle about it.
我仍然对此感到困惑。
And it is unresolved for me, as my answer is indicating, I suppose.
我想，正如我的回答所表明的那样，这对我来说还没有解决。
It's interesting, to me that the way that you view the lesson of this story is that Sarah saved the two of you.
对我来说，有趣的是，你看待这个故事的教训的方式是莎拉拯救了你们两个。
That, as a parent, you got yourself into a moment where you literally didn't know what to do, and that she finally said the thing that made everything OK.
作为父母，你让自己陷入了一个不知道该怎么做的时刻，而她终于说出了让一切都好起来的话。
I absolutely feel that.
我绝对有这样的感觉。
Has it affected our relationship, do you think?
你觉得这对我们的关系有影响吗？
Do you not trust me in the way you used to trust me?
你不再像以前那样信任我了吗？
Sarah, do you view this as one of the moments when you were closest to your dad?
莎拉，你认为这是你与父亲最亲近的时刻之一吗？
Well, I'm very close my dad, so I don't know.
嗯，我和爸爸很亲近，所以我不知道。
It's like, yeah, I guess so.
就像，是的，我想是这样。
But it's not like much closer than I am usually because I'm probably close to my dad all the time.
但这并不比平时更亲密，因为我可能一直和我父亲很亲近。
But, yeah, it is one of the times that I was closest, I guess.
但是，是的，我想这是我最接近的一次。
Yeah.
是的。
Lawrence Weschler, he's now the artistic director of the Chicago Humanities Festival.
劳伦斯·韦施勒 (Lawrence Weschler)，现任芝加哥人文节艺术总监。
And he's the author of many books, including his latest, Everything That Rises , A Book of Convergences.
他是许多书的作者，包括他的最新著作《一切崛起》、《融合之书》。
Sarah is now 19.
莎拉现在19岁了。
This past year, she's been teaching kindergarten in a remote village in Tanzania.
去年，她在坦桑尼亚的一个偏远村庄教幼儿园。
She goes off to college in the fall.
她秋天去上大学。
Back when we recorded this interview, eight years ago, she said that even at the time that we were recording the interview she still believed in the borrowers.
八年前，当我们录制这次采访时，她说即使在我们录制采访时，她仍然相信借款人。
In fact, she said she was going to listen to the story, but not in the house.
事实上，她说她要去听这个故事，但不是在家里。
She was going to listen in the car.
她准备在车上听。
I don't want us to listen to it at the house because, if there are still borrowers in our house, I don't want them to hear that and think that they can't trust me.
我不想让我们在家里听到这个，因为如果我们家里还有借款人，我不想让他们听到这个并认为他们不能信任我。
Because, right now, I'm telling their whole story, so I feel like I'm sort of betraying them.
因为，现在我正在讲述他们的整个故事，所以我觉得我有点背叛他们。
And I just wanted to make sure that they knew that, you know?
我只是想确保他们知道这一点，你知道吗？
If I actually did meet one, I wouldn't tell anyone.
如果我真的遇到了，我不会告诉任何人。
I would never tell a single person in the world.
我永远不会告诉世界上任何一个人。
Our program was produced today by Julie Snyder and myself with Alex Blumberg, Alix Spiegel, Nancy Updike, and Jorge Just.
今天我们的节目由朱莉·斯奈德和我本人以及亚历克斯·布伦伯格、阿利克斯·斯皮格尔、南希·厄普代克和豪尔赫·贾斯特共同制作。
Contributing editors for this show Paul Tough, Jack Hitt, Margy Rochlin and Consigliere, Sarah Vowell.
本节目的特约编辑 Paul Tough、Jack Hitt、Margy Rochlin 和 Consigliere、Sarah Vowell。
Production help from Todd Bachmann, Sylvia Lemus, Sativa January, and Seth Lind.
Todd Bachmann、Sylvia Lemus、Sativa January 和 Seth Lind 为制作提供帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our website, www.thisamericanlife.org, where you can listen to all of our programs and our archives for absolutely free, 24 hours a day.
[鸣谢] 我们的网站 www.thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中每天 24 小时完全免费收听我们的所有节目和档案。
Or, you know, you can download today's program and our archives at audible.com/thisamericanlife.
或者，您知道，您可以在 audible.com/thisamericanlife 下载今天的节目和我们的档案。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight for our program by Mr. Torey Malatia who declares every time someone chooses not to pledge to this radio station--
[资金来源] WBEZ 管理部门由 Torey Malatia 先生对我们的节目进行监督，每次有人选择不向该广播电台承诺时，他都会声明——
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
To my dad, Barry Glass, off in Baltimore, Maryland, happy Father's Day, Dad.
致我在马里兰州巴尔的摩的父亲巴里·格拉斯 (Barry Glass)，父亲节快乐，爸爸。
And see you soon in New York City, OK?
很快在纽约见，好吗？
To all the rest of you, back next week with more stories of This American Life .
对于你们所有人，下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。