106: Father’s Day ‘98 - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #106 | June 19, 1998 106: Father’s Day ‘98 Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 106 集 | 1998 年 6 月 19 日 106：父亲节 '98 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
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如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass From WBEZ Chicago and Public Radio International, it's This American Life .
序言 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥和国际公共广播电台的 Ira Glass，这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
And for this week's program, for Father's Day, everybody on our staff sat around and we talked about what it is that one really wants to hear on Father's Day, or near Father's Day.
在本周的父亲节节目中，我们工作人员的每个人都围坐在一起，我们讨论了人们在父亲节或临近父亲节时真正想听到的内容。
And Nancy, one of the producers on the show, said, what you really want to hear is parents and kids actually having an honest moment together.
该节目的制作人之一南希说，你真正想听到的是父母和孩子们真正在一起度过了一个诚实的时刻。
Talking about whatever.
聊什么都行。
And so we tried it.
所以我们尝试了。
We asked this 18-year-old named Chana Wiliford from Waco, Texas, and her father, if they would be willing to have a conversation on tape in which each of them got to ask the other all the questions they had never asked before.
我们询问了来自德克萨斯州韦科的 18 岁女孩查娜·维利福德 (Chana Wiliford) 和她的父亲，他们是否愿意进行一次录音对话，在对话中，他们每个人都可以问对方所有他们以前从未问过的问题。
And it's interesting what happens when you do that.
当你这样做时会发生什么，这很有趣。
One of the first things I wanted to start with, Dad, was like when you and mom got together.
爸爸，我想要开始的第一件事就是你和妈妈在一起的时候。
For example, I know that-- I think, anyway-- you guys met in a bar.
例如，我知道——我想，无论如何——你们是在酒吧认识的。
And then like two weeks later, you were married.
然后大约两周后，你们结婚了。
You know, what made you guys get married so quickly?
你知道，是什么让你们这么快就结婚了？
Yeah, it was kind of a whirlwind thing, you know?
是的，这有点像旋风，你知道吗？
I know in my-- from my side of it-- I was looking for somebody.
我知道，从我的角度来看，我正在寻找某人。
I needed someone in my life.
我的生活中需要有人。
And I guess, you know, she basically was in the same situation.
我想，你知道，她基本上也处于同样的情况。
So we both just were looking for somebody, and we ended up hooking up.
所以我们都只是在寻找某人，最后我们就在一起了。
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass All through this conversation, Chana goes back and forth between being her father's daughter, his child, and being his peer.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：在整个谈话中，查娜在她父亲的女儿、他的孩子和他的同龄人之间来回徘徊。
And what's so amazing to listen to, is that.
令人惊奇的是，这就是。
That is the end of the long process of parenting.
这就是漫长的养育过程的结束。
A process that takes decades.
一个需要数十年的过程。
The biggest project most of us ever embark upon.
这是我们大多数人曾经从事过的最大的项目。
This is how you know it all worked out OK, when you can talk to your kid as an equal.
当您可以平等地与您的孩子交谈时，您就知道一切顺利。
Well, what was the family reaction?
那么，家人的反应是什么？
I know Nana couldn't have been entirely pleased.
我知道娜娜不可能完全高兴。
I don't know, you know.
我不知道，你知道。
I really don't know.
我真的不知道。
You know, I never really asked anybody.
你知道，我从来没有真正问过任何人。
Of course, you know, I was in the Marine Corp., and I didn't really care what anybody thought about anything.
当然，你知道，我在海军陆战队，我并不真正关心别人对任何事情的看法。
Well, yeah, you were how-- you were how old?
嗯，是的，你当时多大了？
Like 25 at the time, right?
当时大概25岁吧？
25.
25.
Yeah.
是的。
I was 25.
那年我25岁。
And I had always told myself, you know, that I was going to live hard and party till I got to be 25, and then I was going to get married.
我一直告诉自己，你知道，我要努力生活并参加派对直到 25 岁，然后我要结婚。
So you stuck with it.
所以你坚持了下来。
Bob Wiliford Sure enough, that's the way it ended up.
鲍勃·威利福德 果然，事情就是这样结束的。
Today on our program, what happens when fathers and kids sit down and talk-- actually talk-- and what happens when they don't.
今天在我们的节目中，当父亲和孩子们坐下来交谈时会发生什么——实际上是交谈——以及当他们不坐下来交谈时会发生什么。
It's kind of an amazing little show today.
今天真是一场精彩的小表演。
We have four acts.
我们有四幕。
Act One, Pandora's Box, in which Chana and her dad, as we said, ask each other all the unasked questions they've stored up over the years.
第一幕，潘多拉魔盒，正如我们所说，查娜和她的父亲互相询问了多年来他们储存的所有未问的问题。
Act Two, Mack Daddies.
第二幕，麦克爸爸。
In the building in which 18-year-old Sanantonio Brooks lives, in the Chicago public housing projects, most of the fathers are under 25 years old, and they became fathers as teenagers.
在芝加哥公共住房项目中，18岁的桑托尼奥·布鲁克斯所居住的大楼里，大多数父亲的年龄都在25岁以下，他们在十几岁的时候就成为了父亲。
He talks to some of his friends about whether they are better fathers than their own fathers were.
他与他的一些朋友谈论他们是否比自己的父亲更好的父亲。
Act Three, Bond, Dammit, Bond, in which a new dad, writer Dan Savage, laments how long it is taking him to truly bond with his baby boy.
第三幕《邦德，该死的，邦德》中，一位新爸爸、作家丹·萨维奇感叹他花了很长时间才与他的宝贝儿子建立真正的联系。
Act Four, Age of Enchantment.
第四幕，魔法时代。
Writer Lawrence Weschler and his eleven-year-old daughter, Sara, tell a true story of parental love, betrayal, fiction, deception, and more love, that happened to the two of them.
作家劳伦斯·韦施勒和他十一岁的女儿萨拉讲述了发生在他们两人身上的真实故事，关于父母之爱、背叛、虚构、欺骗以及更多的爱。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, Pandora's Box.
第一幕，潘多拉魔盒。
So I already explained the premise for Chana's taped conversation with her dad.
我已经解释了查娜与她父亲的录音对话的前提。
A few quick words about them before we start.
在我们开始之前，先简单介绍一下它们。
Chana grew up in Waco.
查纳在韦科长大。
But unlike most of the people who she knows there, Chana left Texas, went to college in Philadelphia, where she just finished her freshman year at Temple.
但与她在那里认识的大多数人不同的是，查娜离开了德克萨斯州，去了费城上大学，她刚刚在坦普尔大学完成了一年级的学业。
Her dad works at the phone company installing big switching systems, stuff like that.
她的父亲在电话公司工作，安装大型交换系统之类的东西。
He and her mom have been married and divorced and remarried to each other three times.
他和她的妈妈已经结婚、离婚、再婚三次。
One of my original questions, when first asked to interview you, basically was-- the first thing that just popped into my head, that I've never asked, that every kid wants to know, is where was I conceived?
当我第一次被要求采访你时，我最初的问题之一基本上是——我脑海中闪现的第一件事，我从未问过，每个孩子都想知道，我是在哪里受孕的？
Where were you conceived?
你是在哪里受孕的？
Chana Wiliford If you even remember.
查娜·威利福德（Chana Wiliford）如果你还记得的话。
Yeah, I think I remember.
是的，我想我记得。
If I remember correct, I believe it was out at Lake Athens.
如果我没记错的话，我相信是在雅典湖。
Lake Athens.
雅典湖。
Bob Wiliford Yeah.
鲍勃·威利福德 是的。
It was late, you know, one or two in the morning, whatever.
你知道，已经很晚了，凌晨一两点，无论如何。
And I [UNINTELLIGIBLE] in that old maroon pickup truck, if you remember that.
如果你还记得的话，我[听不清]在那辆旧栗色皮卡车里。
I had like a blanket or something because we ended up in the bed of the truck.
我想要一条毯子什么的，因为我们最后在卡车的床上。
And that's--
那就是——
Maybe that was the wrong question to ask.
也许这个问题问错了。
Well-- Chana Wiliford And as far as, like, me growing up, and things like that, you know, just-- I don't know.
嗯——查娜·威利福德（Chana Wiliford） 至于我的成长过程，以及类似的事情，你知道，只是——我不知道。
You know, going which way I want to go now.
你知道，我现在想走哪条路就走哪条路。
How has that been for you to watch me?
你看着我感觉如何？
You know, kind of like not be like everybody else where I grew up?
你知道吗，有点像我长大的地方的其他人不一样？
Well, truthfully, I'm glad.
嗯，说实话，我很高兴。
You know?
你知道？
And there's some of it, you know, that has scared me.
你知道，其中有一些让我感到害怕。
I mean, just the fact that you're in Philadelphia still scares me.
我的意思是，光是你在费城这一事实就让我感到害怕。
Because I worry about you, and I worry about, you know--
因为我担心你，我担心，你知道——
Well, of course.
嗯，当然。
Bob Wiliford --something happening to you, and all that kind of stuff.
鲍勃·威利福德——发生在你身上的事情，以及所有类似的事情。
But I don't know.
但我不知道。
I enjoy watching you, you know?
我很喜欢看你，你知道吗？
I mean, it's-- I don't know.
我的意思是，这是——我不知道。
There's nothing in this world that's ever pleased me more than you.
这个世界上没有什么比你更让我高兴的了。
You're great, you know?
你很棒，你知道吗？
I just can't tell you.
我只是不能告诉你。
I just couldn't be prouder.
我实在是太自豪了。
Well, kind of back to the history thing.
好吧，有点回到历史了。
You know, of course, you guys got divorced last May, I guess.
当然，我猜你们去年五月就离婚了。
I don't even really remember.
我什至都不记得了。
And then you got remarried in what?
然后你再婚了？
December?
十二月？
Yeah, I think.
是的，我想。
So that's got to seem a little strange to every-- well, to yourself, too, I'm sure.
所以这对每个人来说都有点奇怪——嗯，我相信对你自己来说也是如此。
But it definitely seems strange to everyone around you.
但这对你周围的每个人来说肯定很奇怪。
I can assure that.
我可以保证。
Well, it is.
嗯，确实如此。
It definitely is.
绝对是。
And even to me, you know?
甚至对我来说，你知道吗？
I don't know how else to look at it, Chana.
我不知道还能怎么看，查纳。
I've thought about it over and over and over.
我一遍又一遍地思考这个问题。
All's I know is I love her.
我只知道我爱她。
And I can't live with her and I can't live without her.
我不能和她一起生活，也不能没有她。
You know, that old saying.
你知道，那句老话。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I'm just not sure.
我只是不确定。
You know, what the problem is or what the-- even myself, I can't figure it out.
你知道，问题是什么或者是什么——即使是我自己，我也无法弄清楚。
At this point, I can't swear it won't happen again.
此时此刻，我不能发誓这种事不会再发生。
If it does, it's not going to be my fault.
如果是这样，那不是我的错。
Well, do you think that the last time was your fault?
嗯，你觉得上次的事是你的错吗？
Yeah, I guess, in a way it was.
是的，我想，在某种程度上是的。
Because, you know, I got in trouble again.
因为，你知道，我又遇到麻烦了。
My drinking thing.
我喝酒的事。
And I don't know that the divorce was actually my fault.
我不知道离婚实际上是我的错。
Because I told her, we should just slow down and get a look at the big picture, it's not that bad.
因为我告诉她，我们应该放慢脚步，看看大局，事情并没有那么糟糕。
But she was determined to make her point.
但她决心要表达自己的观点。
And so she did what she did.
所以她做了她所做的。
She filed for divorce.
她提出离婚。
We did the divorce.
我们离婚了。
And then I guess she did realize it wasn't that bad.
然后我猜她确实意识到事情并没有那么糟糕。
And so we ended up getting back together.
所以我们最终又复合了。
Well, you know, on my end of the deal, I was just kind of confused, you know?
嗯，你知道，在我的交易结束时，我只是有点困惑，你知道吗？
I don't know.
我不知道。
I think I was, not happy, but more relieved, at the fact that you guys were splitting up.
我想，对于你们分手的事实，我并不高兴，但更放心了。
Just because of all the problems that I've seen over the years.
只是因为这些年来我看到的所有问题。
And then it just kind of-- I don't know.
然后就有点——我不知道。
I was disappointed.
我很失望。
Maybe just with the situation in general, kind of with you.
也许只是针对一般情况，对你来说是这样。
Yeah, I know you were.
是的，我知道你是。
But I've got to be happy, too.
但我也必须快乐。
Or at least whatever I think's happy.
或者至少是我认为快乐的事情。
Well, I'm not going to say I didn't want you to be happy.
好吧，我不会说我不想让你快乐。
But you know, I kind of thought that maybe you could finally find your happiness somewhere else.
但你知道，我有点想也许你最终可以在其他地方找到你的幸福。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
Yeah, but I don't know that-- that wasn't working out.
是的，但我不知道——那行不通。
I just couldn't-- I don't know.
我只是不能——我不知道。
It's weird, you know, when you're married for that long to be not married.
你知道，结婚这么久却没有结婚，这很奇怪。
And I really didn't know what to do.
我真的不知道该怎么办。
I didn't know how to go about it.
我不知道该怎么办。
And I feel a lot more comfortable, even if I'm not totally happy, I feel safe when I'm married, you know what I mean?
我感觉舒服多了，即使我不完全幸福，结婚后我也感到安全，你知道我的意思吗？
And, you know, it always goes back to the fact that I love the girl.
而且，你知道，这总是可以追溯到我爱这个女孩的事实。
I don't know what else.
我不知道还有什么。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I just worry about you, you know what I mean?
我只是担心你，你知道我的意思吗？
Really?
真的吗？
Chana Wiliford Yeah.
查纳·威利福德 是的。
I want to make sure that you're happy, for the most part.
我想确保你大部分时间都快乐。
Oh, I'm going to get happy.
哦，我会变得快乐。
You know, I mean, one way or the other, I'm going to get happy.
你知道，我的意思是，无论怎样，我都会感到快乐。
I've got the biggest thing there is, right there in you.
我拥有最伟大的东西，就在你身上。
And Wes, and Leah, and these grandkids, you know?
还有韦斯、利亚和这些孙子们，你知道吗？
That's my reward in life.
这就是我人生的回报。
Y'all are.
你们都是。
You know?
你知道？
Y'all are it.
你们都是这样的
That's what dads do.
这就是爸爸们所做的。
That's what I do, anyway.
无论如何，这就是我所做的。
Bob Wiliford and his daughter, Chana.
鲍勃·威利福德和他的女儿查娜。
When it came time for him to ask his questions of her during their interview, there was this little technical problem in the taping.
当他在采访中向她提问时，录音中出现了一个小技术问题。
Maybe you noticed the buzzing all through their interview on the tape.
也许您在录音带上的采访中注意到了嗡嗡声。
Anyway, his voice was only recorded over the phone line to the studio where Chana was sitting in Philadelphia.
无论如何，他的声音只是通过电话线录制到查纳位于费城的录音室。
And he basically just had one question for Chana.
他基本上只问了查娜一个问题。
Of course, you know, a dad's-- one of dad's main concerns is your love life.
当然，你知道，父亲最关心的事情之一就是你的爱情生活。
Your situation with sex and how that situation is-- I don't know how to put it-- coming along, I guess.
我想，你的性情况以及情况如何——我不知道该怎么说——正在发生。
Is it a problem or are you just handling it?
这是一个问题还是你正在处理它？
No, it's not a problem.
不，这不是问题。
Of course, I'm sure you can just kind of--
当然，我相信你可以--
Yeah.
是的。
Well, definitely.
嗯，当然。
Act Two: Mack Daddies Ira Glass Act Two, Mack Daddies.
第二幕：麦克爸爸 艾拉·格拉斯 第二幕，麦克爸爸。
Sanantonio Brooks is 18, lives in the public housing projects here in Chicago.
Sanantonio Brooks 18 岁，住在芝加哥的公共住房项目中。
4120 South Prairie.
4120 南草原。
There's a lot of young fathers in the building.
大楼里有很多年轻的父亲。
So they don't really celebrate Father's Day like other people celebrate Father's Day, because they're young fathers.
所以他们并没有像其他人庆祝父亲节那样真正庆祝父亲节，因为他们是年轻的父亲。
Like, what happened last year?
比如，去年发生了什么？
I know a lot of fathers got together.
我知道很多父亲聚在一起。
They got a lot of beer.
他们喝了很多啤酒。
They smoke weed, so they all gathered around in one room, and they was just sitting there chilling.
他们抽大麻，所以他们都聚集在一个房间里，只是坐在那里乘凉。
Just talked about, you know what I'm saying, things that they did in their childhood.
刚才谈到了，你知道我在说什么，他们小时候做过的事情。
Like that, what was going on around the building in the day, what they going to be doing all later in the future, and stuff like that.
比如，当天大楼周围发生了什么，他们将来要做什么，等等。
This is a part of our program about dads who have not gotten quite so close with their own children.
这是我们的节目的一部分，内容是关于那些与自己的孩子没有那么亲密的父亲的。
Two thirds of African-American children are raised in single parent families, usually by their mothers or grandmothers.
三分之二的非裔美国儿童在单亲家庭中长大，通常由母亲或祖母抚养。
Sanantonio did a story for our program a year ago.
圣安东尼奥一年前为我们的节目做了一个故事。
And when Father's Day was coming up this year, he told us that he'd like to interview some of the young fathers in his building.
今年父亲节即将到来时，他告诉我们他想采访他大楼里的一些年轻父亲。
Guys his age and just a little older.
和他同龄的家伙，只是年纪大一点而已。
Guys he's known since he was a kid.
他从小就认识的人。
He wanted to talk to them about their relationships with their kids and their relationship with their own fathers.
他想和他们谈谈他们与孩子的关系以及他们与自己父亲的关系。
Some guys, hearing this, tried to avoid him.
一些人听到这话，都想避开他。
Some people did more than avoid.
有些人所做的不仅仅是避免。
They literally dodged me.
他们真的躲开了我。
I can't say for sure.
我不能肯定地说。
It was like, a lot of them just didn't want to really be interviewed about Father's Day.
就像，他们中的很多人只是不想真正接受有关父亲节的采访。
Hold up [UNINTELLIGIBLE].
请举起[无法理解]。
Sanantonio Brooks You ain't got to give your name.
Sanantonio Brooks 你不必透露你的名字。
A lot of people, they didn't want the environment that I have for them.
很多人不想要我为他们提供的环境。
So I had to catch them at their time.
所以我必须在他们的时间抓住他们。
OK.
好的。
Sanantonio Brooks What did you think when you first found out that you was having kids?
Sanantonio Brooks 当你第一次发现自己有了孩子时，你有什么想法？
First I wanted to go crazy.
首先我想发疯。
Then at first-- then after that, when I seen them coming into the world, I changed.
然后一开始——然后，当我看到他们来到这个世界上时，我改变了。
I enjoyed it.
我很享受。
You enjoyed it?
你喜欢吗？
Man 2 Mm-hmm.
男人 2 嗯嗯。
You know how people, when they young and they ain't got no kids, they want to party all the time.
你知道，当人们还年轻、没有孩子时，他们总是想参加派对。
Pfft.
噗。
When you get kids, partying stops.
当你有了孩子后，聚会就停止了。
The money-- the little money you do have, got to go towards them kids.
你所拥有的那点钱，必须送给孩子们。
Kids deserve everything you can possibly give them.
孩子们值得你给予他们的一切。
Love, everything.
爱，一切。
Every weekend.
每个周末。
Sanantonio Brooks How often do you buy your kids something?
Sanantonio Brooks 您多久给孩子买东西一次？
Whenever I get some money.
每当我有钱的时候。
Sanantonio Brooks Some of them, they straight with their kids, they take care of their kids.
圣安东尼奥·布鲁克斯 他们中的一些人，他们直接和他们的孩子在一起，他们照顾他们的孩子。
Then the other ones, they-- they don't even-- it's like they claim their kids but they don't do nothing for them.
然后其他人，他们——他们甚至不——就像他们夺走了他们的孩子，但他们没有为他们做任何事。
It's like they play the father role every now and then.
就像他们时不时地扮演父亲的角色一样。
Nuh-uh.
呃呃。
It depends.
这取决于。
Now, because most of them, they not working.
现在，因为他们中的大多数人都没有工作。
So they downstairs, serving drugs or whatever.
所以他们在楼下提供毒品或其他什么。
And many times-- mostly they ain't making too much money, you know what I'm saying?
很多时候——大多数时候他们并没有赚太多钱，你知道我在说什么吗？
To take care of themselves.
照顾好自己。
So most of them ain't really looking out for their kids.
所以他们中的大多数人并没有真正关心他们的孩子。
Yeah, you should probably explain that.
是的，你应该解释一下。
I think most people around the country, when they think of people selling drugs, they think of what they've seen in the movies and that they're making a ton of money.
我认为全国大多数人，当他们想到贩卖毒品的人时，他们会想到他们在电影中看到的东西，并且他们赚了很多钱。
Nope, not all of them.
不，不是全部。
Most of them's just down [UNINTELLIGIBLE].
他们中的大多数人都已经倒下了[难以辨认]。
And when they be down there, they just make-- barely make enough to eat from day to day.
当他们在那里的时候，他们只是做——勉强够日复一日地吃。
Just down there hustling.
就在那里喧闹。
So you talked to those five guys, and what did most of them feel about their fathers?
那么你和这五个人聊过，他们中的大多数人对他们的父亲有什么看法？
Most of them, I'd say, they had feelings for their fathers, but it wasn't too deep.
我想说，他们中的大多数人对他们的父亲都有感情，但不是太深。
Because they felt that their father was not around.
因为他们觉得父亲不在身边。
So they really had a lot of regrets and then a lot of hostility built up inside.
所以他们确实有很多的遗憾，然后内心也积攒了很多的敌意。
Was your father around when you were coming up?
你来的时候你父亲在吗？
No, he wasn't.
不，他不是。
My father was gone.
我父亲走了。
Just put it like that, you know what I'm saying.
就这样说吧，你知道我在说什么。
Bad childhood.
童年不好。
So I didn't basically see my father but maybe three times in my life.
所以我一生中基本上没见过父亲，但可能见过三次。
Actually, you want to know the truth?
其实你想知道真相吗？
I'm a devil in disguise.
我是一个伪装的恶魔。
So it's like I had to see it in person, see him in person, for me to react on that.
所以这就好像我必须亲自看到它，亲自看到他，我才能对此做出反应。
But at the same time, my feelings now, I'd probably kill him.
但同时，以我现在的感觉，我可能会杀了他。
Everybody I grew up with, it's like their fathers either left at an early age or they passed away, or something like that.
和我一起长大的每个人，就像他们的父亲要么早年离开，要么去世，或者类似的事情。
Basically, their fathers dropped in and out of their lives just like mine did.
基本上，他们的父亲就像我的一样，时常出现在他们的生活中。
The thing I was going to ask is, I mean, you know, their fathers drop in and out of their lives, but now they're doing that to their kids.
我要问的是，我的意思是，你知道，他们的父亲在他们的生活中时隐时现，但现在他们却对他们的孩子这样做。
Right.
正确的。
It's a cycle that-- everybody in our building, they-- they pay-- I see it.
这是一个循环——我们大楼里的每个人，他们——他们付钱——我看到了。
They pass it on from generation to generation.
他们代代相传。
It just stays in the building.
它只是留在大楼里。
It's like, they don't know how to take those steps to change it.
就像，他们不知道如何采取这些步骤来改变它。
I can't explain.
我无法解释。
My father left and he hasn't been back since.
父亲走了之后就再也没有回来过。
What do you think your kids are going to think of you?
你认为你的孩子会怎么看你？
My kid sees me and my kid smiles all the time, every time my kid sees me.
我的孩子看到我，每次我的孩子看到我，我的孩子都会微笑。
Would you say you played a positive role in your child's life?
您认为您在孩子的生活中发挥了积极的作用吗？
Yes.
是的。
Sanantonio Brooks Are there any father figures in your life left?
Sanantonio Brooks 你的生活中还剩下父亲的形象吗？
No. Sanantonio Brooks What did you think when you first heard you were going to have a baby?
否。 Sanantonio Brooks 当您第一次听说您要生孩子时，您有什么想法？
Man, it was wow.
伙计，太棒了。
But at the same time, I was bogus.
但与此同时，我是假的。
Because I could have been there when he was born.
因为他出生时我本来可以在场。
I ain't going to trip though.
不过我不会去旅行。
How often would you say that you see your kid?
您会说您多久见一次您的孩子？
When I get a chance.
当我有机会的时候。
I got to say that.
我必须这么说。
When I get a chance.
当我有机会的时候。
But at the same time, I know you're well taken care of.
但与此同时，我知道你得到了很好的照顾。
How often do you buy your son something?
你多久给你儿子买一次东西？
As often as I can.
尽我所能。
That's the same-- that's just like asking the same question.
是一样的——就像问同样的问题一样。
I can't buy him nothing unless I'm around him.
除非我在他身边，否则我不能给他买任何东西。
I'm going to ship it in the mail?
我要邮寄吗？
I'm not rolling like that.
我不会那样滚动。
So when I get a chance to, that's when I do what I can.
所以当我有机会的时候，我就会尽我所能。
Because the little things I do do, at least I did it.
因为我做的小事，至少我做到了。
And I can't say nobody made me do this, because my father wasn't there for me, when I was growing up.
我不能说没有人让我这样做，因为在我成长的过程中，我的父亲并不在我身边。
So therefore, the little things I do, I do appreciate, and he do-- Jeremy do too.
因此，我确实很欣赏我所做的小事，而他——杰里米也很欣赏。
How do you feel as a father?
作为父亲你感觉如何？
Man 4 I feel great.
男人4 我感觉很好。
What do you think your kids are going to think of you?
你认为你的孩子会怎么看你？
Daddy did the best that he can.
爸爸已经尽力了。
And he's going to keep on doing the best he can.
他将继续尽力而为。
It's interesting, because most of the guys you talked to felt like-- even though most them only would see their kids like once a week, or maybe twice a week-- they all felt like they were doing a decent job, or doing a better job than their fathers did.
这很有趣，因为与你交谈过的大多数人都感觉——尽管他们大多数人每周只会见到自己的孩子一次，或者每周两次——他们都觉得自己做得不错，或者比他们的父亲做得更好。
What do you think of that?
你对此有何看法？
I think, compared to how their fathers treat them, I feel that they're doing pretty good for themselves if they're seeing them two times a week, if they only seen their father once, twice a year.
我认为，与他们的父亲对待他们的方式相比，如果他们每周见他们两次，如果他们每年只见他们的父亲一次、两次，我觉得他们对自己做得很好。
In a way, it just goes to show you just how far things have gone.
在某种程度上，它只是向你展示事情已经走了多远。
That once or twice a week would seem like a lot.
每周一两次似乎很多。
Yes.
是的。
Well, to them it does seem like a lot because-- it's hard to explain.
嗯，对他们来说，这确实看起来很多，因为——这很难解释。
In my situation, if my father came to see me two or three times in a week, I think it would have made a difference.
就我的情况而言，如果父亲一周来看我两三次，我想情况就会有所不同。
So I think, basically, they're making a difference in their kids life.
所以我认为，基本上，他们正在改变孩子们的生活。
How often do I see my father?
我多久见一次父亲？
I seen my father-- the last time I seen him-- it's been, I'd say, three years ago.
我见到我的父亲——我最后一次见到他——我想说，已经是三年前了。
Then before that, it'd been at least two.
在那之前，至少已经有两次了。
So he'll pop in like every two, three years.
所以他每隔两三年就会出现一次。
What kind of difference would it make if you saw him two or three times a week?
如果你每周见他两到三次会有什么不同？
It probably would have made a lot of difference.
这可能会带来很大的不同。
I know I probably wouldn't have growed up the way I growed up now.
我知道我可能不会像现在这样长大。
There's just a lot of things, but I really can't say for sure.
有很多事情，但我真的不能确定。
What do you think your kids are going to grow up thinking of you?
您认为您的孩子长大后会想到您什么？
Well, my son often tell me I'm a surv-- daddy, you're a survivor, ain't you?
嗯，我儿子经常告诉我，我是一个幸存者——爸爸，你是一个幸存者，不是吗？
Yeah, I'm a survivor.
是的，我是幸存者。
Because I've been out here too long.
因为我在这里呆得太久了。
You know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
I don't want to work, do things like that.
我不想工作，不想做类似的事情。
So only thing they basically can say is I was out here bogus, but I also was a survivor.
所以他们基本上只能说我是假的，但我也是幸存者。
I did what I could for him, as well as for anybody else.
我为他、也为其他人做了我能做的事。
But I basically had to live for myself.
但我基本上还是要为自己而活。
Because that's all I got, actually is self.
因为这就是我所拥有的一切，实际上就是自我。
You know, it's interesting when you talk about your father.
你知道，当你谈论你的父亲时，这很有趣。
You don't sound angry.
你听起来并不生气。
You sound more sad than angry.
你听起来比生气更悲伤。
It is, like, you really can't be angry with them because you know them.
就像，你真的不能对他们生气，因为你了解他们。
And then you still love then.
然后你仍然爱着那时。
But you're disappointed in the way that he left you.
但你对他离开你的方式感到失望。
And in some ways, you probably know why he left, but then you want to get the understanding out of his mouth, why he left.
在某些方面，你可能知道他为什么离开，但你想从他嘴里了解他为什么离开。
And that's something that, my father, he hasn't done yet.
我的父亲，这是他还没有做到的事情。
I asked him-- he knows I know why he left, but he-- it's like he won't explain why he can't come into my life now, even though I'm getting older.
我问他——他知道我知道他为什么离开，但他——就像他不会解释为什么他现在不能进入我的生活，尽管我已经老了。
So, it's still-- I'm upset, and then in a way I'm mad, but mostly upset.
所以，我仍然很沮丧，然后在某种程度上我很生气，但主要是沮丧。
Because right about now, I feel that if he really wanted to be in my life, he would've-- it's coming down to graduation.
因为现在，我觉得如果他真的想出现在我的生活中，他就会——直到毕业。
He would have asked me, was I graduating?
他会问我，毕业了吗？
What it is I'm doing?
我在做什么？
He ain't even call for that.
他甚至没有要求这样做。
So I'm not letting none of that bother me or worry me.
所以我不会让任何事情困扰我或让我担心。
Yes.
是的。
Ira Glass So for you to call him, it's like-- it's a matter of pride.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：所以你称呼他，就像——这是一个骄傲的问题。
Yeah.
是的。
As a matter of fact, that's what it is.
事实上，就是这样。
Because I feel that if I make-- if I call up there-- for me, it will seem like I'm making the first move.
因为我觉得如果我——如果我打电话给那里——对我来说，看起来就像是我迈出了第一步。
And I feel I shouldn't have to.
而且我觉得我不应该这样做。
Because that's my father and I'm the kid.
因为那是我的父亲，而我就是孩子。
You know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
Like he won't reach out to me, so why should I reach out to somebody that doesn't want to reach out to me?
就像他不会联系我一样，那么我为什么要联系那些不想联系我的人呢？
Do you think these guys just forget how it feels?
你认为这些人只是忘记了这种感觉吗？
Probably.
大概。
Man 3 You see, I had to see myself as a daddy.
男人 3 你看，我必须把自己视为一个父亲。
A father is one who is able to take care of their child.
父亲是有能力照顾孩子的人。
I'm not there yet.
我还没到那儿。
So I don't recognize myself as a father.
所以我不承认自己是一个父亲。
Since that interview and that story, Sanantonio Brooks graduated from high school here in Chicago.
自从那次采访和那个故事之后，圣安东尼奥·布鲁克斯从芝加哥的高中毕业了。
His father wasn't there.
他的父亲不在场。
[MUSIC - "DADDY'S HOME" BY SHEP & THE LIMELIGHTS]
[音乐 - SHEP & THE Limelights 的《爸爸的家》]
Act Three, Bond, Dammit, Bond.
第三幕，邦德，该死，邦德。
Now another case study of a dad who is waiting to feel closer to his kid.
现在是另一个案例研究，讲述的是一位父亲正在等待与孩子建立更亲密的关系。
Dan Savage has done a number of stories for our program.
丹·萨维奇（Dan Savage）为我们的节目制作了许多故事。
He writes the syndicated sex advice column, Savage Love.
他撰写了联合性建议专栏《野蛮之爱》。
He and his boyfriend Terry spent months and months trying to adopt, and finally did adopt a baby boy just recently, from a teenage mom named Jessica.
他和他的男朋友特里花了几个月的时间试图收养一个男婴，最近终于从一位名叫杰西卡的十几岁的妈妈那里收养了一个男婴。
And now Dan is waiting to feel like the dad that he wants to be.
现在丹正在等待成为他想成为的父亲。
When I first held the baby, 20 minutes after he was born, I was surprised that I didn't feel an instantaneous rush of anything.
当我第一次抱着孩子时，也就是他出生20分钟后，我很惊讶我没有感觉到任何瞬间的冲击。
The baby was doing his part.
婴儿正在尽他的职责。
He was tiny, he was cute, his eyes were open.
他很小，很可爱，眼睛睁着。
But I couldn't hold up my end of the deal, the dad end.
但我无法履行我的协议，即父亲的协议。
When I looked at him, no instant this-is-my-son bonding took place.
当我看着他时，并没有立即产生“这是我儿子”的情感。
Bond, I said to myself.
邦德，我对自己说。
Bond, dammit, bond.
债券，该死，债券。
What was wrong with me?
我到底怎么了？
Why was I having to will myself to feel something I assumed would happen on its own, like magic?
为什么我必须强迫自己去感受一些我认为会自己发生的事情，比如魔法？
I had to bond.
我必须建立联系。
In two days, my boyfriend Terry and I would be taking this baby home.
两天后，我和男朋友特里就会带这个孩子回家。
We were going to be dads.
我们要当爸爸了。
This moment has been coming for two years.
这一刻已经到来两年了。
We'd been to seminars, read stacks of books, written stacks of progressively larger checks.
我们参加过研讨会，读过成堆的书，写过成堆越来越大的支票。
Had social workers tramping in and out of our house, and opened our bank accounts, police records, and skulls for inspection by the adoption agency.
让社会工作者进出我们的房子，打开我们的银行账户、警察记录和头骨供收养机构检查。
We'd been talking about this moment, the moment we would become dads, for a long time.
很长一段时间以来，我们一直在谈论这一刻，我们即将成为父亲的那一刻。
For so long, in fact, that it had come to seem like just so much talk, one big abstraction.
事实上，这么长时间以来，它似乎只是一堆空话，一个大抽象。
Maybe I was just a little numb when the baby was finally handed to me.
也许当孩子最终被交给我时我有点麻木了。
Later that night, the four of us-- me, Terry, Jessica, and the baby-- were hanging out in Jessica's room.
那天晚上晚些时候，我们四个人——我、特里、杰西卡和婴儿——在杰西卡的房间里闲逛。
I had the honor of changing the first poopy diaper, filled with what looked like Hershey's syrup.
我有幸换了第一个便便尿布，里面装满了看起来像好时糖浆的东西。
And pretty soon I was starting to feel something.
很快我就开始感觉到一些东西。
Not quite a dad feeling yet, but something more than babysitter.
还没有完全像爸爸的感觉，但不仅仅是保姆的感觉。
But the feelings were tenuous and I didn't focus on them for fear of squelching them.
但这种感觉很脆弱，我没有关注它们，因为害怕压制它们。
Terry, on the other hand, says there was nothing tenuous about his feelings, even right from the start.
另一方面，特里表示，即使从一开始，他的感情也没有任何脆弱之处。
When we went up to the birthing suites at the hospital, you know, hours after he was born.
当我们去医院的产房时，你知道，在他出生几个小时后。
And watched him get all his reflex exams and his first bath.
看着他接受所有的反射检查和第一次洗澡。
It was like, you know, I felt attached to him.
就像，你知道，我对他有依恋之情。
I felt like watching him every moment because this was our-- this was it.
我每时每刻都想看着他，因为这是我们的——就是这样。
This was the one.
就是这个。
You know, he was so pretty and he was so beautiful.
要知道，他是那么的漂亮，那么的美丽。
He was just this like perfect little baby boy that had been put in our lives.
他就像是进入我们生活的完美小男孩一样。
You want to hear the horsey song?
你想听马歌吗？
Giddyup, giddyup, giddyup--
晕了，晕了，晕了——
Here's how bonded Terry is to the baby.
以下是特里与宝宝的亲密关系。
He's made up a burping song so involved that it not only has two choruses, but a bridge and a key change.
他创作了一首令人打嗝的歌曲，内容非常投入，不仅有两个副歌，还有一个桥段和一个调性变化。
We love you so when you ride out yonder on our little knee.
当你骑在我们的小膝盖上时，我们非常爱你。
We love you so when you ride out yonder and you go bleh, whee.
我们非常爱你，当你骑车出去时，你会发疯。
Little boy, little boy, little boy, DJ.
小男孩，小男孩，小男孩，DJ。
Little boy, little boy, little boy, horsey.
小男孩，小男孩，小男孩，马。
Little boy, little boy, little boy, little boy.
小男孩，小男孩，小男孩，小男孩。
Did you write that yourself?
这是你自己写的吗？
Terry I did.
特里，我做到了。
That's an original.
那是原创的。
With most biological parents, the bond is instantaneous.
对于大多数亲生父母来说，这种联系是即时的。
Baby books reassure biological parents who don't feel an instant bond not to worry, the bond will come.
婴儿读物让那些没有感受到即时联系的亲生父母放心，不用担心，这种联系会到来。
So there must be some who don't feel it right away.
所以肯定有人没有立即感觉到。
But doing an adoption, we had some options.
但在收养孩子时，我们有一些选择。
And when and how to bond, when to decide that we were officially fathers, was among them.
其中包括何时以及如何建立联系，何时决定我们正式成为父亲。
Driving to the hospital that day, we knew we could walk away from this baby at any point and for any reason before we signed the placement papers.
那天开车去医院时，我们知道在签署安置文件之前，我们可以随时以任何理由离开这个婴儿。
Club feet, cleft palate, bad hair, we wouldn't have to give a reason.
畸形足、腭裂、糟糕的头发，我们不需要给出理由。
We didn't talk about it, but this was rattling around in some corner of our brains.
我们没有谈论它，但这件事却在我们大脑的某个角落里盘旋。
It's taboo in some adoption circles to acknowledge these things.
在一些领养圈子里，承认这些事情是禁忌。
We're supposed to toe the line and say that adopting a baby is just like having one of our own.
我们应该遵守规则，说收养一个孩子就像拥有自己的孩子一样。
That our feelings for the baby, from the moment we first laid eyes on him, were no different than if the kid had been our own biological child.
从我们第一次看到这个孩子的那一刻起，我们对他的感觉就和这个孩子是我们自己的亲生孩子没有什么不同。
But it is different, fundamentally different.
但它不同，根本不同。
Perhaps I should stop here and acknowledge something that some of you may be thinking as you sit listening to me talk.
也许我应该在这里停下来，承认你们中的一些人在听我讲话时可能正在思考的一些事情。
For some of you, I am your worst nightmare.
对于你们中的一些人来说，我是你们最糟糕的噩梦。
A homosexual sex writer and sometime drag queen, who, with his boy-toy boyfriend, has adopted a vulnerable little baby boy.
一位同性恋性爱作家，有时也是变装皇后，他和他的玩具男友收养了一个脆弱的小男婴。
You fear we intend to put him in leather diapers, hang a mirrored ball over his crib, teach him to dance to YMCA, and slowly draw him into our perverted lifestyle.
你担心我们打算给他穿上皮尿布，在他的婴儿床上挂一个镜面球，教他跳基督教青年会舞蹈，慢慢地把他引入我们变态的生活方式。
Or maybe you think worse.
或者也许你认为更糟。
When we were still doing our paperwork, straight friends would ask if I was excited about becoming a dad.
当我们还在做文书工作时，异性朋友会问我对成为一名父亲是否感到兴奋。
I would say, yes, Terry's gotten so loose.
我想说，是的，特里太放松了。
And this I know is the fear.
我知道这就是恐惧。
The fear that's led two states to outlaw gay men and lesbians adopting children, and made it nearly impossible in most other states, even if it is technically legal.
这种恐惧导致两个州禁止男女同性恋者收养孩子，而在其他大多数州，这几乎是不可能的，即使这在技术上是合法的。
Yet if I wanted to have sex with children, which I don't, there are easier, less expensive, and less emotionally taxing ways to arrange for that.
然而，如果我想与孩子发生性关系（而我并不想），还有更简单、更便宜、情感负担更少的方式来安排。
I could join the priesthood or coach Little League or-- well, I'm going to stop taking these cheap shots in the spirit of being a role model.
我可以加入牧师或担任少年棒球联盟教练，或者——好吧，我将不再本着成为榜样的精神采取这些廉价的做法。
I am a dad now, you know?
我现在当爸爸了，你知道吗？
At least officially.
至少官方是这样。
What's funny about the whole evil, disco dancin', gay, baby-raping nightmare is that the truth of why gay men want to be dads is actually so much more disturbing.
整个邪恶、迪斯科舞、同性恋、强奸婴儿的噩梦的有趣之处在于，为什么同性恋男人想当爸爸的真相实际上更令人不安。
When I fantasized about becoming a dad, I didn't picture myself having sex with my children.
当我幻想成为一名父亲时，我并没有想象自己与孩子们发生性关系。
And even now, though I don't quite feel like a dad yet, I'd cut the heart out of anyone who so much as laid an ill-intentioned finger on our kid.
即使是现在，尽管我还不太觉得自己像个父亲，但如果有人恶意对我们的孩子下手，我就会痛斥他。
No, in my dad fantasies, I saw myself going to work, making money, coming home to Terry and the kid.
不，在我爸爸的幻想中，我看到自己去工作，赚钱，回家见特里和孩子。
I'd help with the homework, take the kid to ball games, McDonald's, and camping.
我会辅导孩子做作业，带孩子去打球，去麦当劳，去露营。
My dad fantasies are straight-- straight out of the '50s-- with Terry staying at home and taking care of the kid.
我爸爸的幻想很直接——直接来自 50 年代——让特里呆在家里照顾孩子。
Just like a '50s mom.
就像 50 年代的妈妈一样。
I do see that.
我确实看到了这一点。
And I don't mind it.
我不介意。
I love staying home with him.
我喜欢和他一起呆在家里。
He's so wonderful.
他太棒了。
He's so great.
他太棒了。
And he's so much fun to stay home with and play with and watch smile all day.
和他呆在家里一起玩、整天看着他微笑真是太有趣了。
And now that he's beginning to coo and make all sorts of funny sounds, it's just great.
现在他开始咕咕叫并发出各种有趣的声音，这真是太棒了。
People ask Terry how it's different to have the baby and he answers, now I have two people to pick up after.
人们问特里生孩子有什么不同，他回答说，现在我有两个人要接。
That's our family.
那是我们的家人。
I go out and make the donuts.
我出去做甜甜圈。
Terry stays at home and picks up after us.
特里留在家里接我们。
We're taping every episode of the Teletubbies.
我们正在录制天线宝宝的每一集。
We don't have sex anymore.
我们不再发生性行为了。
We're typical American parents.
我们是典型的美国父母。
When Terry imagines what it'll be like when the kid is five, he sounds an awful lot like June Cleaver.
当特里想象孩子五岁时会是什么样子时，他听起来很像琼·克利弗。
Making cookies and going to PTA meetings and volunteering for being a chaperone, going to the zoo.
制作饼干、参加 PTA 会议、志愿担任监护人、去动物园。
Being a kindergarten volunteer.
做一名幼儿园志愿者。
Helping kids cut and paste and keep things out of their mouths.
帮助孩子们剪切和粘贴并防止东西进入他们的嘴。
But Terry doesn't see this as being the mom.
但特里并不认为这是妈妈。
This is being a dad like his dad was.
这就是像他父亲一样的父亲。
Well, in my family, I mean, my dad did everything.
嗯，在我的家庭里，我的意思是，我父亲做了一切。
My dad cooked, he cleaned.
我爸爸做饭，他打扫卫生。
He made pies in the summer.
夏天他做了馅饼。
He built houses.
他建造了房屋。
He reroofed garages.
他翻修了车库的屋顶。
But he also helped with homework.
但他也帮忙做作业。
And I feel like I'm doing the same amount of work my father would have done.
我觉得我正在做和我父亲一样多的工作。
I kind of feel like I'm sort of following in the footsteps of my own father.
我感觉我正在追随我父亲的脚步。
Terry's following the footsteps of his father and I'm following in the footsteps of mine.
特里追随他父亲的脚步，我也追随我父亲的脚步。
Not completely connected to the kid, not around as much, sometimes leaving before he wakes up in the morning and getting home after he is already asleep at night.
与孩子的联系不完全，不在身边，有时早上他醒来之前就离开，晚上他已经睡着了才回家。
Doing all the mom things, Terry feels like a father already.
做着所有妈妈该做的事，特里感觉自己已经像个父亲了。
I'm doing all the dad things, and I don't feel like a father yet.
我正在做所有父亲该做的事情，但我还没有觉得自己像个父亲。
But I think it's coming.
但我认为它即将到来。
When rude people ask adoptive couples who the real parents are, we're supposed to say that the real parents are the people there in the middle of the night, the people the kid comes to when he needs something.
当粗鲁的人问收养夫妇谁是真正的父母时，我们应该说真正的父母是半夜在那里的人，孩子需要什么东西时会来找他的人。
And most importantly, the real parents-- the real dad, in this case-- is the person the kid calls dad.
最重要的是，真正的父母——在这种情况下是真正的爸爸——是孩子称呼爸爸的人。
The kid turned three months old just before Father's Day.
父亲节前夕，孩子三个月大了。
He isn't calling us anything yet, but he will.
他还没有给我们打电话，但他会的。
Soon he'll understand that he has parents, two dads, and he'll come to me and he'll call me dad.
很快他就会明白他有父母，两个爸爸，他会来找我，他会叫我爸爸。
And that's when I think I'll finally feel like a father.
那时我想我终于感觉自己像个父亲了。
I hope.
我希望。
Coming up, a father, a daughter, a lie that lasted half a year.
出现了，一个父亲，一个女儿，一个持续了半年的谎言。
Four inch high human beings and how a child can solve parenting problems when parents cannot figure them out on their own.
四英寸高的人类，以及当父母无法自己解决育儿问题时，孩子如何解决这些问题。
That's all in a minute from Public Radio International, when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续时，这就是国际公共广播电台的全部内容。
It's This American Life .
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose a theme, invite a variety of writers and performers to tackle that theme.
当然，我们每周的节目都会选择一个主题，邀请各种作家和表演者来解决这个主题。
Today's program, for Father's Day, we bring you stories about fathers who do not get close to their kids, and about fathers who do, as we listen to them talk with the kids.
今天的父亲节节目，我们为您带来一些关于那些与孩子不亲近的父亲以及那些与孩子亲近的父亲的故事，我们听他们与孩子交谈。
Lawrence Weschler is an author and journalist, a writer at The New Yorker magazine.
劳伦斯·韦施勒 (Lawrence Weschler) 是一位作家和记者，也是《纽约客》杂志的撰稿人。
And this story is about an odd sort of breach of trust between father and child.
这个故事是关于父亲和孩子之间一种奇怪的信任破裂的故事。
A breach of trust done without meaning to and what happened next.
无意中违反信任以及接下来发生的事情。
He and his 11-year-old daughter, Sara, went into a radio studio in New York City to tell us the story.
他和他 11 岁的女儿萨拉走进纽约市的一家广播电台向我们讲述这个故事。
It begins simply enough, when she was little and he would read to her.
故事开始得很简单，当她还小的时候，他会读书给她听。
She would get into very active conversations with the characters in the books while we were reading.
当我们阅读时，她会与书中的人物进行非常活跃的对话。
So, for example, when we were reading Little House on the Prairie, there would be these moments where she would interrupt my reading and say, wait a second, I want to talk to the Indian.
举例来说，当我们读《草原上的小屋》时，有时她会打断我的阅读，说，等一下，我想和印第安人谈谈。
And we'd have to go look for a picture of the Indian, and she'd say to the Indian, "Look, Indian, in a few pages you're going to meet Laura.
我们必须去找印第安人的照片，她会对印第安人说：“看，印第安人，再过几页你就会见到劳拉。
But you've got to be-- understand, I know she's taking your land, but it's not her fault.
但你必须——明白，我知道她正在夺走你的土地，但这不是她的错。
She's just a kid.
她只是个孩子。
Now let me talk to Laura." And we'd go back and we'd talk to Laura.
现在让我和劳拉谈谈。”我们会回去和劳拉谈谈。
And in these things, I would take on the role of the Indian, and I'd say things like, you know, who's that talking?
在这些事情上，我会扮演印度人的角色，我会说，你知道，是谁在说话？
And so forth.
等等。
And we would have these incredibly elaborate conversations.
我们会进行这些令人难以置信的详尽对话。
Do you remember that, Sara?
你还记得吗，萨拉？
Yes.
是的。
Lawrence Weschler Anyway, this sort of thing would go on all the time, and at a later point we began reading The Borrower s series.
劳伦斯·韦施勒 不管怎样，这种事情一直在发生，后来我们开始阅读《借款人》系列。
The series of wonderful books by Mary Noble.
玛丽·诺布尔的精彩书籍系列。
Norton.
诺顿。
Norton.
诺顿。
Lawrence Weschler By Mary Norton, that's right.
劳伦斯·韦施勒 作者：玛丽·诺顿，没错。
And should Sara describe what the book is about, maybe?
萨拉应该描述一下这本书的内容吗？
Sure.
当然。
Sara, explain what the Borrowers are like.
萨拉，解释一下借款人是什么样的。
Well, the Borrowers-- it's about these little people who are, I think, like four inches tall.
嗯，借款人——这是关于这些小人物的，我认为他们大约有四英寸高。
And they live under the floorboards in the house.
他们住在房子的地板下。
And what they do is they take things from people, little things that they can use around their house.
他们所做的就是从人们那里拿走一些可以在家里使用的小东西。
Well, they take pocket watches, and stamps, for like pictures on the wall.
嗯，他们会拿怀表和邮票，就像墙上的照片一样。
And part of the point about Borrowers is that they're not allowed-- are they allowed to talk to people?
关于借款人的部分要点是他们不被允许——他们被允许与人交谈吗？
No. Lawrence Weschler Do you want to talk about that a little bit?
不，Lawrence Weschler 你想谈谈这个吗？
Well, because they think that people can really hurt them, because according to the book it's happened before.
嗯，因为他们认为人们真的会伤害他们，因为根据书，这种情况以前发生过。
Right.
正确的。
Lawrence Weschler So anyway, we were reading this book.
劳伦斯·韦施勒 (Lawrence Weschler) 无论如何，我们正在读这本书。
And one day I came home and Sara was incredibly excited.
有一天，我回到家，萨拉非常兴奋。
Her face was just glowing, and she said, "Daddy, you won't believe it!
她的脸容光焕发，她说：“爸爸，你不会相信的！
We have Borrowers here in our own house!" And my memory is that-- maybe you remember this differently, Sara-- but my memory was that she went to a particular place in the basement and she pointed at this little kind of hole in the wall in the basement, near the floor.
我们自己家里就有借款人！”我的记忆是——也许你记得不同，萨拉——但我的记忆是她去了地下室的一个特定地方，她指着地下室墙上靠近地板的一个小洞。
And she said, "I was coming down the stairs and there was one of them standing right there, a little girl, and she was wearing a pink taffeta skirt." That's what you said.
她说：“我正走下楼梯，那里站着一个小女孩，她穿着一件粉色塔夫绸裙子。”这就是你说的。
"And I froze, and she froze, and we looked at each other.
“我愣住了，她也愣住了，我们互相看着对方。
And I knew I wasn't supposed to talk to her, and that she shouldn't talk to me, but we just looked at each other.
我知道我不应该和她说话，她也不应该和我说话，但我们只是互相看着对方。
And after about 30 seconds, she kind of waved her hand, just slightly, and she ran away.
大约 30 秒后，她轻轻地挥了挥手，然后就跑开了。
And it was right there." And Sara took me to the place where it was.
它就在那里。”萨拉带我去了它所在的地方。
And Sara, let me just ask you, what do you remember of this?
萨拉，让我问你，你还记得这件事吗？
Well, I remember having seen-- well, you see.
嗯，我记得见过——嗯，你看。
It's like-- it's sort of strange to say this, because like-- I feel like I'm betraying the Borrowers.
这就像——这么说有点奇怪，因为——我觉得我背叛了借款人。
But I still believe in them.
但我仍然相信他们。
And like if I ever actually got to meet one, I'd never tell anyone.
就像如果我真的遇到一个人一样，我永远不会告诉任何人。
And I do remember having seen something.
我确实记得看到过一些东西。
And it wasn't really for 30 seconds.
而且实际上并没有持续 30 秒。
It was like for maybe 10 seconds.
大概持续了 10 秒钟。
And then it ran away.
然后它就逃跑了。
And even now when you think about it, you can picture-- you can picture seeing--
即使现在当你思考它时，你也可以想象——你可以想象看到——
Yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊。
I didn't imagine it.
我没想到。
It was definitely there.
它肯定就在那里。
And it was a little girl.
那是一个小女孩。
Sara Weschler Yeah, I think.
莎拉·韦施勒 是的，我想。
OK.
好的。
Lawrence Weschler And then, over the next few days, Sara began leaving things for this Borrower.
劳伦斯·韦施勒 然后，在接下来的几天里，萨拉开始把东西留给这个借款人。
And the first thing in the morning she would race downstairs to see whether the things had been picked up.
早上第一件事，她会跑下楼看看东西是否已经被捡起来。
Do you remember what kind of things you left?
你还记得你留下了哪些东西吗？
I left like-- sometimes I'd leave like toothpicks or pieces of food.
我有时会像牙签或食物一样离开。
Oh, just like to dig with, and you know?
哦，只是喜欢挖掘，你知道吗？
Kind of an all-purpose tool.
一种万能工具。
Sara Weschler Yeah.
莎拉·韦施勒 是的。
Walking stick, things like that.
拐杖之类的东西。
Anyway, so she would leave these things there, and she would be so disappointed.
无论如何，她要把这些东西留在那里，她会很失望的。
And disappointment verging on desolation that they weren't picked up.
他们没有被接走，感到近乎绝望的失望。
And she'd have long conversations with me.
她会和我进行长时间的交谈。
She'd say, "You know, why aren't they picking them up?
她会说：“你知道吗，他们为什么不把它们捡起来？
Don't they know that I'm giving it to them?" And I would try to explain that maybe, maybe they were scared or nervous or something.
难道他们不知道我给他们了吗？”我会尝试解释说，也许他们害怕、紧张或者其他什么。
That's how Borrowers are.
借款人就是这样。
But she was so sad.
但她是如此悲伤。
And this went on-- I figured this would end-- but at a certain point, this went on for a week.
这种情况持续了——我以为这会结束——但在某个时刻，这种情况持续了一周。
And I don't know why I did it because it began a cascade of consequences.
我不知道我为什么这么做，因为它引发了一系列后果。
But one night I picked up the stuff and put it in my pocket.
但有一天晚上，我捡起了那东西，放进了口袋里。
And the next morning she came bounding up the stairs saying, "Daddy, you won't believe it!
第二天早上，她跳上楼梯说：“爸爸，你不会相信的！
There are Borrowers, just like I said!
正如我所说，有借款人！
They took the stuff!
他们拿走了东西！
They took the stuff!" And she was transported with delight.
他们拿走了东西！”她欣喜若狂。
And I figured that would be the end of it.
我想事情就这样结束了。
But it wasn't.
但事实并非如此。
I started writing to them.
我开始写信给他们。
I started writing letters.
我开始写信。
OK.
好的。
Why don't I ask you to pull out one of those letters and let's hear what you wrote for the first one.
我为什么不请你拿出其中一封信，让我们听听你为第一封信写了什么。
I'll read the first one.
我会读第一本。
OK.
好的。
Ira Glass Now you were six at the time, right?
Ira Glass 现在你当时六岁，对吧？
Seven.
七。
Dear Borrowers, I have seen you but I want to meet you.
亲爱的借款人，我见过你们，但我想见见你们。
If I do, I will not tell anyone without your permission.
如果我这样做，未经您的许可我不会告诉任何人。
Agreed or not agreed?
同意还是不同意？
And then this says, Borrowers--
然后这说，借款人——
Well, then-- just one second.
好吧，那么——就等一下。
So what happened is that that note, on a little yellow Post-it, lay by the hole for several days.
所发生的事情是，那张贴在黄色小便利贴上的便条在洞里放了好几天。
And for several mornings, Sara would be completely devastated that it had not been answered.
连续几个早上，萨拉都会因为没有得到答复而彻底崩溃。
So I went through several days of not quite knowing what to do, because she was getting more and more sad about this, and more concerned.
所以我经历了好几天不知道该怎么办，因为她对此越来越难过，也越来越担心。
And so then I figured, well, it won't do any harm to pick up the piece of paper and write a little tiny message back.
然后我想，好吧，拿起那张纸并写一条小小的信息不会有任何坏处。
Which I did.
我做到了。
OK, so?
好吧，那么？
Sara Weschler Dear Sara, gosh, this is strange.
Sara Weschler 亲爱的Sara，天哪，这很奇怪。
Who are you?
你是谁？
How do you know about Borrowers?
您如何了解借款人？
I thought no human beings ever knew about us.
我以为没有人知道我们。
My dad says it's too dangerous for Borrowers to meet a human being.
我爸爸说借款人见到人太危险了。
And he even says I mustn't write to you.
他甚至说我不能给你写信。
But maybe at least I can write.
但也许至少我可以写作。
Will you write back?
你会回信吗？
I hope so.
我希望如此。
I will keep it a secret from my dad.
我会对我爸爸保密。
Signed, Annabellie.
签名，安娜贝莉。
P.S., I am 11.
PS，我11岁了。
How about you?
你呢？
And so you got this.
所以你得到了这个。
Do you remember getting this letter?
你还记得收到这封信吗？
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Lawrence Weschler Do you remember that morning, what you said when you came up the stairs?
劳伦斯·韦施勒 你还记得那天早上上楼梯时说的话吗？
No. Ira Glass What did she say?
不，艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）她说什么？
Do you remember?
你是否记得？
Oh, she was just, "They are-- I told you!
哦，她只是，“他们是——我告诉过你了！
I told you!
我告诉过你了！
And she answered, she answered!
她回答了，她回答了！
And she wants me to write back!" And she was over the moon.
她要我回信！”她欣喜若狂。
And she wrote back immediately.
她立即回信。
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass So, Ren, did you conceive of your Borrowers as being descendants of the Borrowers in the book?
Ira Glass 那么，Ren，你是否认为你的借款人是书中借款人的后裔？
Well, it was unclear.
嗯，目前还不清楚。
I mean, it was a possibility.
我的意思是，这是有可能的。
And it was up to Sara to keep dredging and find out more.
莎拉需要继续挖掘并找出更多信息。
And so there-- a large part of the correspondence is Sara doing genealogical work on the family.
所以，大部分信件都是萨拉在做这个家庭的家谱工作。
And asking all kinds of questions.
并提出各种问题。
Yeah.
是的。
I would ask like, what was your grandmother's name?
我会问，你祖母叫什么名字？
And it turned out that her grandmother was Arrietty, which is the main character.
原来，她的祖母就是主角阿丽埃蒂。
Yeah.
是的。
And she says that she calls her dad Pea, like as in a peapod.
她说她称她爸爸为豌豆，就像豌豆一样。
Because in the book the dad is Pod.
因为在书中爸爸就是Pod。
And then she calls her mom Hommy, because in the book the mother is Homily.
然后她叫她妈妈Hommy，因为在书中妈妈是Homily。
How long did the letters go back and forth?
信件来来回回用了多长时间？
How many letters were there?
有多少个字母？
I think there were-- well, there were over 17.
我认为有——嗯，有超过 17 个。
Because I didn't finish counting, but I counted up to 17.
因为我没数完，但我数到了17。
And there came to be a crisis in the midst of all this, which was that we were going to be moving about half a mile, 3/4 of a mile.
在这一切之中出现了一个危机，那就是我们要移动大约半英里，3/4 英里。
And she got into a darker and darker mood, and was really, again, almost desolate.
她的心情变得越来越阴暗，真的再一次变得近乎凄凉。
And one day she said, "Daddy, we can't move.
有一天，她说：“爸爸，我们不能动。
What about the Borrowers?
那么借款人呢？
What's going to happen to them?
他们会发生什么事呢？
They'll starve to death!
他们会饿死的！
I've been feeding them for weeks.
我已经喂它们好几个星期了。
What are we going to do?"
我们要做什么？”
And so what we ended up doing was my dad said, "Well, they can move with us." And then what I did is I made a map of how to get to our house.
所以我们最终做的是我爸爸说：“好吧，他们可以和我们一起搬走。”然后我做的是制作了一张如何到达我们家的地图。
She did this very elaborate map.
她制作了这张非常精致的地图。
And Sara said, "But they're not going to be able to do this all in one day." And so what she did is she found-- what did you do?
萨拉说：“但是他们不可能在一天内完成这一切。”所以她所做的就是她发现——你做了什么？
Well, there's this restaurant called Villa Nova Equals E in Pelham.
嗯，佩勒姆有一家名为 Villa Nova Equals E 的餐厅。
And there's this kind of like radiator thing on the outside, I don't know exactly what it is.
外面有一个类似散热器的东西，我不知道它到底是什么。
But there was a hole there big enough for a Borrower to get through.
但那里有一个足够大的洞，借款人可以通过。
And so what I did is I put some cloth in there to make it comfortable.
所以我所做的就是在里面放一些布以使其舒适。
And well, I told them that they could rest there.
好吧，我告诉他们可以在那里休息。
Because they could probably make the first half of the trip during the first day.
因为他们很可能第一天就能走完前半程。
And then it was really close to 5th Avenue, which is our busiest street in Pelham.
然后它真的很靠近第五大道，这是我们佩勒姆最繁忙的街道。
So that when they had to cross 5th Avenue to get to the other part of Pelham, they could do it in the middle of the night.
这样，当他们必须穿过第五大道才能到达佩勒姆的另一部分时，他们可以在半夜完成。
Why would that be important?
为什么这很重要？
Sara Weschler Because the cars wouldn't be going back and forth.
Sara Weschler 因为汽车不会来回行驶。
It was going to take them like an hour to get across the street.
他们要花一个小时才能穿过马路。
OK, excuse me.
好吧，对不起。
So suddenly the whole project of moving went from being a near disaster to being a delight.
突然之间，整个搬家计划从一场近乎灾难的事情变成了一件令人高兴的事。
And every time we moved Sara would run downstairs to see whether they had, in fact, brought some of their stuff over, because they had to do it in several different trips, right?
每次我们搬家时，萨拉都会跑下楼看看他们是否确实带了一些东西过来，因为他们必须在几次不同的旅行中这样做，对吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Lawrence Weschler And each time, it would turn out that they had brought some stuff over, right?
Lawrence Weschler 而且每次，他们都会带来一些东西，对吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Lawrence Weschler Parenthetically, it was fairly easy to know what they had because it had all been in my pockets, as I'd been picking it up over the many months of the correspondence.
劳伦斯·韦施勒（Lawrence Weschler）顺便说一句，要知道他们有什么相当容易，因为它们都在我的口袋里，因为我在几个月的通信中一直在捡起它们。
I had a whole shoebox full of stuff that Sara had been leaving for the Borrowers, so I just kind of transported little sprinklings of it each time we moved some of our stuff over.
我有一整个鞋盒，里面装满了莎拉留给借款人的东西，所以每次我们把一些东西搬过来时，我都会运送一些东西。
And Ren, during this time, were you frightened about where this was all going to lead?
雷恩，在这段时间里，你是否害怕这一切将走向何方？
That at some point you would get found out?
到了某个时候你就会被发现吗？
Well, it was getting strange and actually kind of nerve-wracking.
嗯，事情变得很奇怪，而且实际上有点令人伤脑筋。
And I would do things like-- I kept on figuring that Sara was going to grow out of this.
我会做这样的事情——我一直认为萨拉会从这件事中成长起来。
Or that Sara would associate-- would make the association that this was kind of like what we used to do when I would read about the Indian, or about Laura.
或者萨拉会联想到，这有点像我们过去读到有关印第安人或劳拉的故事时所做的事情。
I kept on thinking that she would just kind of enjoy that.
我一直以为她会喜欢这样。
But she was getting more and more into it.
但她越来越投入其中。
And it was becoming more and more involved.
而且它变得越来越复杂。
And the more involved, the more I could see how invested Sara was in it.
参与得越多，我就越能看到萨拉对此的投入程度。
I mean, it really was the main thing going on in her life during that season.
我的意思是，这确实是那个季节她生活中发生的主要事情。
And as she began telling friends about it and so forth, the stories had to get more and more elaborate to include all the stray bits of details that were seeping into things.
当她开始向朋友讲述这件事等等时，故事必须变得越来越复杂，以包含所有渗透到事物中的零散细节。
And I didn't quite know where it was going to go.
我不太知道它会去哪里。
I would do things.
我会做事。
I would send the Borrowers on vacations.
我会让借款人去度假。
I would send them-- I would just have them suddenly disappear for a while.
我会把它们发送出去——我会让它们突然消失一段时间。
And they'd be gone for a while.
他们会离开一段时间。
And I would hope that by the time it was over, Sara would have forgotten.
我希望当一切结束时，萨拉已经忘记了。
But on the day-- you know, I'd say they'd be gone three weeks.
但那天——你知道，我想说他们会离开三周。
Three weeks later on that day there'd be a note for them from Sara.
三周后的那天，莎拉给他们写了一张便条。
I'd send them into the woods.
我会把他们送进树林里。
There was a little park nearby and for them this was a huge national park.
附近有一个小公园，对他们来说这是一个巨大的国家公园。
And there was a stream and this was the equivalent of the Mississippi for them.
还有一条小溪，对他们来说相当于密西西比河。
And I would send them off and hoping that Sara would get over it, would move on.
我会送他们走，并希望萨拉能够克服它，继续前进。
And Sara, did you suspect at that point?
萨拉，你当时有怀疑吗？
No, no, I-- Lawrence Weschler But what was really funny, Sara, is that you would say things sometimes like, "Daddy, it's really weird.
不，不，我——劳伦斯·韦施勒 但真正有趣的是，莎拉，你有时会说这样的话，“爸爸，这真的很奇怪。
Annabellie uses the same kind of pen as you do." And then you'd say, "Yeah, I guess she must have stolen one of your pens." And then one day I heard her talking to her friend, Megan.
安娜贝莉用的笔和你一样。”然后你会说：“是的，我猜她一定偷了你的一支钢笔。”然后有一天，我听到她和她的朋友梅根说话。
She said, "Annabellie's handwriting is just like my dad's, only really tiny." She would say things like this and yet not put it together.
她说：“安娜贝莉的字迹就像我爸爸的一样，只是很小。”她会说这样的话，但又不会把它们放在一起。
I really hadn't-- like, the second I suspected it, I was almost sure that it had been him.
我真的没有——就像，当我怀疑的那一刻，我几乎确定是他。
And I just went up and asked him if it was him.
我就走上前问他是不是他。
Why is it that you started to suspect?
为什么你开始怀疑？
Do you remember what happened that made you suspect?
你还记得发生了什么让你怀疑的事情吗？
I think it was sort of the fact-- not his handwriting, actually.
我认为这就是事实——实际上不是他的笔迹。
It was that I would tell my dad, for instance, that I was in the basement and I stuck my finger into this hole and I felt something sort of like silky or something.
例如，我会告诉我爸爸，我在地下室，我把手指伸进这个洞里，我感觉到了某种丝滑之类的东西。
It was probably just some like old piece of cloth that was stuck there.
可能只是粘在那里的一块旧布。
But I felt it and I told my dad-- and it sort of slipped away from my finger.
但我感觉到了它，我告诉了我爸爸——它就从我的手指上溜走了。
I told my dad about it.
我把这件事告诉了我爸爸。
And then in the next letter, I'd hear-- Annabellie would be saying, oh, I think that-- was that you who touched me when I was wearing my silk dress?
然后在下一封信中，我会听到——安娜贝莉会说，哦，我想——是你在我穿着丝绸连衣裙时碰了我吗？
And so I started to think, like I tell my dad things that sometimes I'd exaggerate a little bit.
所以我开始思考，就像我告诉我爸爸的事情一样，有时我会夸大一点。
Because when I was younger I exaggerated some things.
因为当我年轻的时候，我夸大了一些事情。
I made things a little bit more exciting than they might have really been.
我让事情变得比实际情况更令人兴奋。
And then like I read the letter and it had that exaggerated part in it.
然后我读了这封信，里面有夸张的部分。
And so I'd say, like, well, that didn't really happen.
所以我想说，好吧，这并没有真正发生。
I was just like sort of adding that to my story.
我只是想把它添加到我的故事中。
And so that's--
所以那就是——
That made you suspicious.
这让你产生了怀疑。
Sara Weschler Yeah, and I asked my dad--
Sara Weschler 是的，我问我爸爸——
So what happened there was, We had moved to the new house.
所以发生的事情是，我们搬到了新房子。
We'd been there for a couple months at that point.
那时我们已经在那里呆了几个月了。
And I was down in the basement moving some boxes around.
我在地下室搬运一些盒子。
And Sara came down there and--
莎拉来到那里然后——
And how old-- Lawrence Weschler She's now eight.
多大了——Lawrence Weschler 她现在八岁了。
In this story?
在这个故事里？
Lawrence Weschler At this point in the story, yeah.
劳伦斯·韦施勒（Lawrence Weschler）在故事的这一点上，是的。
And she-- and she began looking-- her lips were trembling.
她——她开始寻找——她的嘴唇在颤抖。
Her lower lip was trembling.
她的下唇在颤抖。
And she looked at me very firmly as she is quite capable of doing.
她非常坚定地看着我，因为她很有能力做到这一点。
And she said, "Daddy, I'm going to ask you a question now.
她说：“爸爸，我现在要问你一个问题。
And you have to tell the truth because it's a sin for daddies to lie to their daughters." And my heart just sank.
你必须说实话，因为爸爸对女儿撒谎是一种罪过。”我的心沉了下去。
And she said, "Daddy, are you the one who's been writing Annabellie's notes?" And I looked at her, and she looked at me, and there was like silence for five or six seconds.
她说：“爸爸，你就是给安娜贝莉写笔记的人吗？”我看着她，她也看着我，沉默了五六秒。
And then I said, "Um, it's kind of complicated, can we talk?" And she said, "Daddy, it's not complicated.
然后我说：“嗯，事情有点复杂，我们可以谈谈吗？”她说：“爸爸，这并不复杂。
It's simple.
这很简单。
Are you the one?" And I said, "Well, can we talk about it later?" She said, "No, just tell me.
你是那个人吗？”我说：“好吧，我们可以稍后再讨论吗？”她说：“不，只要告诉我。
Are you the one or not?" And I took a big breath and I said, "Yes, it is me." And she broke into--
你到底是不是那个人？”我深吸了一口气，说道：“是的，是我。”然后她闯入——
I was crying.
我哭了。
Lawrence Weschler Oh god, she was sobbing.
劳伦斯·韦施勒 天啊，她在抽泣。
I was so sad.
我很伤心。
Lawrence Weschler She started sobbing.
劳伦斯·韦施勒 她开始抽泣。
It was easily the most wrenching thing that had happened in my parenthood up to that point.
这无疑是我为人父母以来发生过的最痛苦的事情。
I mean, I had totally blown it.
我的意思是，我完全搞砸了。
I just felt like a total disaster.
我只觉得一场彻底的灾难。
And I was crying and she was crying.
我哭了，她也哭了。
And you know, we were both kind of clutching each other and holding each other.
你知道，我们都紧紧地拥抱着对方。
And we were really in a trap there.
我们真的陷入了陷阱。
We were down the hole at that point.
那时我们已经陷入困境了。
We were in big trouble.
我们遇到了大麻烦。
And suddenly this kind of calm came over Sara's face.
萨拉的脸上突然出现了这种平静。
It was kind of like the sun rising in the morning.
这有点像早晨太阳升起的感觉。
And her forehead stopped being furrowed, it became smooth.
她的额头不再有皱纹，变得光滑。
And she just looked at me and she said, "Daddy, don't you realize?
她只是看着我说：“爸爸，你没意识到吗？
You ruined everything.
你毁了一切。
Because there are Borrowers!
因为还有借款人！
And you were taking the letters before they were able to get them." And it was a way of-- she had solved everything there.
而你却在他们拿到信之前就把它们拿走了。”这是一种方式——她已经解决了那里的一切。
Because among other things, that was what she was going to be able to tell her friends.
因为除了其他事情之外，这就是她能够告诉她的朋友们的事情。
And they could all chortle about what kind of a crazy father she had.
他们都会嘲笑她有一个多么疯狂的父亲。
And it was amazing.
这太棒了。
She found a way of getting us out of this disaster that I suppose I had fashioned for us.
她找到了一种让我们摆脱这场灾难的方法，我想这是我为我们设计的。
Because I remember saying that you should have left it there.
因为我记得说过你应该把它留在那里。
Maybe they would have really written back.
也许他们真的会回信。
You shouldn't have done it because maybe they would have actually written back to me finally at some point.
你不应该这样做，因为也许他们最终会在某个时候给我回信。
Like I said earlier, I still believe in them.
正如我之前所说，我仍然相信他们。
And I know that might sound really babyish to some kids who might listen to this.
我知道对于一些可能听这个的孩子来说，这可能听起来很幼稚。
But I still believe in them.
但我仍然相信他们。
And when I told Megan, my friend, when I told Megan that it had been my dad, she stopped believing in them.
当我告诉梅根，我的朋友，当我告诉梅根那是我父亲时，她不再相信他们了。
And she was just like, whenever I'd talk about it from them on, she'd laugh at me and tell me, "Oh, Sara, stop being a baby." Because she's a year older then me, so she-- at that time, she still considered herself really superior to me, even though we're best friends.
她就像，每当我从他们那里谈论这件事时，她都会嘲笑我并告诉我，“哦，萨拉，别再像个孩子了。”因为她比我大一岁,所以她,那个时候,她还是觉得自己比我高一等,虽然我们是最好的朋友。
And she said, "Oh, Sara, stop being a baby.
她说：“哦，莎拉，别再像个孩子了。
It's not true.
这不是真的。
It's just not true." And I said, "But I've seen them." And she said, "No, you haven't.
这不是真的。”我说：“但我见过他们。”她说：“不，你没有。
You just imagined it.
你只是想象而已。
And it's not true.
但这不是真的。
And you can just stop imagining it and stop telling me about it because it's not true."
你可以停止想象并停止告诉我这件事，因为这不是真的。”
How do you feel about it now when you look at those letters?
当你现在看到这些信时，你有什么感觉？
I don't know.
我不知道。
Like sometimes when I read them, I still sort of can think that, you know, I wonder why this happened to her?
就像有时当我读到它们时，我仍然会想，你知道，我想知道为什么这件事发生在她身上？
I wonder why that happened to her?
我想知道为什么她会发生这样的事？
I wonder why she would say that?
我想知道她为什么会这么说？
Even though I know that it was my dad writing to me, I still sometimes sort of think of there being an Annabellie somewhere out there.
尽管我知道那是我爸爸写给我的，但有时我仍然会想起安娜贝莉在某个地方。
When we pulled out the box last night, of letters, did it bring you pleasure to look at those letters?
昨晚，当我们拿出装着信件的盒子时，您看到这些信件是否感到高兴？
Did you--
你有没有——
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass And what do you think when you look at it?
Ira Glass 当你看到它时你有什么感想？
Well, I just think it was sort of-- now looking back, it was sort of nice of him to do.
嗯，我只是觉得——现在回想起来，他这样做是件好事。
Because I remember, when it was happening, and after I'd figured out that it was him, I had asked him, well, can we still sort of write to each other?
因为我记得，当事情发生时，当我发现是他之后，我问他，好吧，我们还能互相写信吗？
We never really actually wrote to each other after that, but I just sort of thought after a while that it was a nice thing.
从那以后我们就再也没有真正给对方写过信，但过了一段时间我就觉得这是一件好事。
And that even though maybe there was no Borrower writing to me, there was maybe-- having my dad make up this whole family was maybe just as special, or maybe almost as special as having actually been writing to a Borrower.
即使可能没有借款人写信给我，但也许——让我的父亲组成整个家庭可能和实际写信给借款人一样特别，或者几乎一样特别。
Sara, can I ask you, what do you think the lesson of this story is?
萨拉，我能问你一下，你认为这个故事的教训是什么？
That is, if parents hear you tell this story, you and your dad tell this story on the radio, and if another parent gets into this kind of situation, what's your advice for them?
也就是说，如果父母听到你讲这个故事，你和你爸爸在广播中讲这个故事，如果其他父母遇到这种情况，你对他们有什么建议？
Should they go along with it?
他们应该同意吗？
Should they write letters and should they pick up stuff?
他们应该写信还是应该捡东西？
I don't know.
我不知道。
Because like it was really fun for me to have this kind of experience.
因为有这样的经历对我来说真的很有趣。
But when I found out that it was my dad writing, it was really upsetting.
但当我发现这是我爸爸写的时候，我真的很难过。
And so I just don't know.
所以我就是不知道。
I think that if I were a parent and I had that kind of thing, I would not pick it up.
我想，如果我是一名家长，我有这样的事情，我就不会接它。
You would not?
你不会吗？
Sara Weschler No, I would keep encouraging my kid, my child, to keep on writing to the Borrowers and trying to get them to write back, but I wouldn't pick it up.
Sara Weschler 不，我会一直鼓励我的孩子，我的孩子，继续写信给借款人并试图让他们回信，但我不会接。
What if they keep coming to you, so sad every morning, the way you were sad coming to me, and just pleading, I wish, I wish, I wish they would come.
如果他们继续来找你，每天早上都很悲伤，就像你悲伤地来找我一样，只是恳求，我希望，我希望，我希望他们能来。
Can you imagine ever picking it up?
你能想象拿起它吗？
It's just-- I don't think it's fair to lead someone on like that.
只是——我认为这样引导某人是不公平的。
Ren, as far as you're concerned, what's the lesson of the story?
任先生，就你而言，这个故事的教训是什么？
If you had this to do again, if you would get into this situation again, or if you could go back with the benefit of hindsight, what would you do?
如果你可以再做一次，如果你会再次陷入这种情况，或者如果你可以事后诸葛亮，你会怎么做？
Would you have left the letters?
你会留下这些信吗？
I mean, I'd like to say that had I to live it over again I wouldn't do it this way, but I'm not sure.
我的意思是，我想说，如果我能重来一次，我不会这样做，但我不确定。
Because it started so naturally.
因为它开始得如此自然。
And in the end, by the, way, what I'd have to say is probably the most poignant, closest, amazing moment I've had as a single-- you know, the moment I'll remember of a particular phase in my life, is the holding onto each other in the basement, both of us crying.
最后，顺便说一句，我想说的可能是我单身时经历过的最令人心酸、最亲密、最令人惊奇的时刻——你知道，我会记得我生命中某个特定阶段的那一刻，就是在地下室里互相拥抱，我们俩都哭了。
But Sara not running away, and Sara saving us.
但萨拉没有逃跑，萨拉救了我们。
And that kind of cemented our relationship in a really kind of wonderful way.
这以一种非常美妙的方式巩固了我们的关系。
So I mean, I don't--
所以我的意思是，我不——
It might not end that way for everybody.
对于每个人来说，事情可能不会以这种方式结束。
Yeah, it might not end that way for everybody, that's true.
是的，可能不会对每个人都有这样的结局，这是事实。
I continue to puzzle about it.
我仍然对此感到困惑。
And it is unresolved for me as my answer is indicating, I suppose.
我想，正如我的回答所示，这对我来说还没有解决。
It's interesting to me that the way that you view the lesson of the story is that Sara saved the two of you, that as a parent you got yourself into a moment where you literally didn't know what to do.
对我来说有趣的是，你看待这个故事的教训的方式是萨拉拯救了你们两个，作为父母，你让自己陷入了一个你真的不知道该怎么做的时刻。
And that she finally said the thing that made everything OK.
她终于说出了让一切都好起来的话。
Yeah, I absolutely feel that.
是的，我绝对有这样的感觉。
Has it affected our relationship, do you think?
你觉得这对我们的关系有影响吗？
Do you not trust me in a way you used to trust me?
你不再像以前那样信任我了吗？
Sara, do you view this as one of the moments when you were closest to your dad?
萨拉，你认为这是你与父亲最亲近的时刻之一吗？
Well, I'm very close to my dad.
嗯，我和我爸爸很亲近。
So I don't know.
所以我不知道。
Yeah, I guess so.
是的，我想是的。
But it's not like much closer than I am usually.
但它并不比我平时更近。
Because I'm very close to my dad like all the time.
因为我和我爸爸一直都很亲近。
But yeah, it is one of the times that I was closest, I guess.
但是，是的，我想这是我最接近的一次。
Yeah.
是的。
So my heart is in my throat.
所以我的心提到了嗓子眼。
Ira Glass Hey, Sara, if you still think they exist, have you tried to spot them?
Ira Glass 嘿，Sara，如果你仍然认为它们存在，你尝试过发现它们吗？
Have you tried to wait for them and spot them again?
您是否尝试过等待他们并再次发现他们？
Well, I have seen-- well, I'm not sure, because I've seen them in the shadows.
好吧，我已经看到了——好吧，我不确定，因为我在阴影中看到了他们。
The only time I'm absolutely positive I saw one was downstairs in the basement of my old house.
我唯一一次绝对肯定看到的是在我老房子的地下室楼下。
But I have seen them since.
但从那以后我就见过他们了。
Sometimes I'll go and I'll sit at the basement steps and look around.
有时我会去坐在地下室的台阶上环顾四周。
And sometimes I'll be making, let's say, a cake.
有时我会做蛋糕。
And I'll leave a little bit of dough wrapped in some paper by the staircase, at the basement, in the basement, for them to take.
我会在楼梯边、地下室、地下室留下一点用纸包着的面团，让他们拿走。
And do they take it?
他们接受吗？
Sara Weschler Well, I don't know.
萨拉·韦施勒：嗯，我不知道。
Because I don't find it, but then again, who knows what that might be.
因为我没有找到它，但话又说回来，谁知道那可能是什么。
It could be--
可能是——
Right.
对。
It could be bugs.
这可能是错误。
Sara Weschler Mouse.
莎拉·韦施勒老鼠。
Dad.
爸爸。
A mouse or a dad.
老鼠或者爸爸。
This child is afflicted.
这孩子有苦难言。
[LAUGHTER] Ira Glass The house is crawling with them.
[笑声] Ira Glass 房子里爬满了它们。
Lawrence Weschler is the author of Mr. Wilson's Cabinet of Wonders and Calamities of Exile .
劳伦斯·韦施勒是《威尔逊先生的流亡奇迹与灾难内阁》一书的作者。
Sara Weschler just graduated from elementary school this week.
萨拉韦施勒本周刚刚从小学毕业。
When we spoke she said that she would be listening to our radio program this weekend in the car.
当我们交谈时，她说她这个周末会在车里听我们的广播节目。
I don't want us to listen to it at the house.
我不想让我们在家里听它。
Because if there are still Borrowers in our house, I don't want them to hear that and think that they can't trust me.
因为如果我们家里还有借款人，我不想让他们听到这个消息并认为他们不能信任我。
Because it's right now, I'm like telling their whole story.
因为现在，我想讲述他们的整个故事。
So I feel like I'm sort of betraying them, you know?
所以我觉得我有点背叛他们，你知道吗？
And I just like wanted to make sure that they knew that, you know, if I actually did meet one, I wouldn't tell anyone.
我只是想确保他们知道，如果我真的遇到了，我不会告诉任何人。
I would never tell a single person in the world.
我永远不会告诉世界上任何一个人。
Well, the program was produced today by Nancy Updike and myself with Alix Spiegel and Julie Snyder.
嗯，这个节目今天由南希·厄普代克和我、阿利克斯·斯皮格尔和朱莉·斯奈德共同制作。
Senior editor, Paul Tough.
高级编辑，保罗·托夫。
Contributing editors, Jack Hitt, Margy Rochlin and consigli Sarah Vowell.
特约编辑 Jack Hitt、Margy Rochlin 和 consigli Sarah Vowell。
Production help from Laura Doggett, Sylvia Lemus and [?
Laura Doggett、Sylvia Lemus 和 [？
Sayuni ?] [?
沙尤尼？] [？
Davenport.
长椅。
?] Thanks today to Street Level Youth Media.
？] 今天感谢街头青年媒体。
Happy Father's Day to my own dad, Barry Glass, in Baltimore.
祝我住在巴尔的摩的父亲巴里·格拉斯父亲节快乐。
If you want to buy a cassette of this program, call us at WBEZ here in Chicago.
如果您想购买该节目的磁带，请致电芝加哥的 WBEZ。
312-832-3380.
312-832-3380。
312-832-3380.
312-832-3380。
Our email address, [email protected] .
我们的电子邮件地址，[电子邮件受保护]。
Or you can listen to any of our programs over the internet for free-- for free-- at our website.
或者，您可以在我们的网站上通过互联网免费收听我们的任何节目。
www.thislife.org.
www.thislife.org。
That's thislife, one word, no space in it.
这就是此生，一个字，里面没有空格。
This week, you'll also find at our website some of Sara's Weschler's correspondence with the Borrowers, right there.
本周，您还可以在我们的网站上找到萨拉的韦施勒与借款人的一些信件。
Well, This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
嗯，《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
[FUNDING CREDITS] Also from Double Take magazine.
[资金来源] 同样来自 Double Take 杂志。
If you enjoy This American Life , you may also like Double Take .
如果您喜欢《This American Life》，您可能也会喜欢《Double Take》。
Documenting everyday life through reporting, fiction, photography, and poetry.
通过报道、小说、摄影和诗歌记录日常生活。
For your own sample copy, that's your very own, you can keep it forever, the toll free number is 1-877-4DOUBLE.
对于您自己的样本副本，这是您自己的，您可以永远保留它，免费电话号码是 1-877-4DOUBLE。
WBEZ management oversight by Torey Malatia, who we have a plan for.
WBEZ 的管理由 Torey Malatia 负责监督，我们为他制定了计划。
I have to say a big, big plan.
我不得不说一个很大很大的计划。
Put him in leather diapers, teach him to dance to YMCA, and slowly draw him into our perverted lifestyle.
给他穿上皮尿布，教他跳基督教青年会舞蹈，慢慢地让他融入我们变态的生活方式。
Indeed, we will.
确实，我们会的。
Well, I'm Ira Glass.
嗯，我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。