105: Take A Negro Home - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #105 | February 25, 2000 105: Take A Negro Home Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 105 集 | 2000 年 2 月 25 日 105：带一个黑人回家 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass Here's an editorial from a newspaper in Jackson, Mississippi, The Clarion-Ledger, from October 6, 1957.
序言 Ira Glass 这是 1957 年 10 月 6 日密西西比州杰克逊市一家报纸《The Clarion-Ledger》的社论。
"If you want an insight into how Negroes in Chicago are trying to establish social equality," it begins, "there are three paragraphs from an authentic report of a meeting of the Negro Improvement Society in that city." And then it quotes from the report.
“如果你想了解芝加哥的黑人如何努力建立社会平等，”它开头说，“这里有三段来自该市黑人进步协会一次会议的真实报告。”然后引用了报告中的内容。
"To those who failed to attend our recent quarterly meeting, I can say you missed a real treat.
“对于那些未能参加我们最近的季度会议的人，我可以说你们错过了一次真正的盛宴。
At the last minute, we were able to get Mayor Daley as speaker.
在最后一刻，我们邀请戴利市长担任发言人。
He presented a very interesting talk.
他做了一个非常有趣的演讲。
The highlight of it was a discussion of the forthcoming campaign 'Take a Negro Boy Home Tonight,' which all agreed was a fine step forward in human relations.
会议的亮点是对即将开展的“今晚带黑人男孩回家”活动的讨论，所有人都认为这是人际关系方面向前迈出的一大步。
It is to be inaugurated soon in the city's high schools.
它很快将在该市的高中中落成。
Mayor Daley told us that he had been advised by an outstanding sociologist that the vicious hates and fears rooted in racial prejudice and fascist bigotry could best be combated by closer and more intimate relationships between Negro boys and white girls.
戴利市长告诉我们，一位杰出的社会学家向他建议，消除根植于种族偏见和法西斯偏执的恶毒仇恨和恐惧的最佳方法是黑人男孩和白人女孩之间建立更密切和更亲密的关系。
Therefore this new campaign will encourage white high school girls to volunteer to take Negro boys to their homes for dinner and date them afterwards.
因此，这项新活动将鼓励白人高中女生自愿带黑人男孩到他们家吃晚饭，然后与他们约会。
These girls will get higher marks and other privileges for promoting interracial harmony.
这些女孩将因促进种族和谐而获得更高的分数和其他特权。
This will show the white parents that it's all right to have these associations.
这将向白人父母表明，有这些联系是可以的。
Now we must all do our part.
现在我们都必须尽自己的一份力量。
Make sure that Negro boys invited to the white folks' houses take a bath first and put on a white shirt.
确保被邀请到白人家里的黑人男孩先洗澡并穿上白衬衫。
Then he will prove that he's a good companion for the white girls and socially acceptable.
然后他将证明他是白人女孩的好伴侣并且为社会所接受。
Please cooperate to make Mayor Daley's campaign a success."
请合作，使戴利市长的竞选活动取得成功。”
And then after that, the editorial continues.
之后，社论继续。
"So that's the way they're trying to establish racial equality in Chicago, equality with miscegenation, mixed marriages, wholesale adultery, bastardy, and mongrelization.
“这就是他们试图在芝加哥建立种族平等的方式，平等与异族通婚、异族通婚、大规模通奸、私生子和杂种化。
It is happening in Chicago.
它正在芝加哥发生。
It will be tried in Mississippi if the NAACP ever gets a foot in the door."
如果全国有色人种协进会涉足其中，将会在密西西比州进行尝试。”
Well, you know, the most interesting thing about this campaign, "Take a Negro Boy Home Tonight," is that it is complete fiction.
嗯，你知道，“今晚带一个黑人男孩回家”这个活动最有趣的一点是，它完全是虚构的。
No such campaign ever existed in Chicago.
芝加哥从未有过这样的活动。
And if it did, you know, it's unimaginable to any real Chicagoan that the late Mayor Richard J.
如果确实如此，你知道，对于任何真正的芝加哥人来说，已故市长理查德·J·肯尼迪（Richard J.
Daley would have endorsed it.
戴利会赞同的。
These kinds of articles appeared in Southern newspapers at least as far back as the 1920s.
至少早在 20 年代，此类文章就出现在南方报纸上。
Lies made up by segregationist forces to scare white people about this threat, racial integration.
种族隔离势力编造的谎言，目的是让白人害怕种族融合这一威胁。
And the lies worked for a while.
谎言在一段时间内发挥了作用。
And then integration came anyway.
然后整合还是到来了。
Which brings us to today's radio program.
这就引出了今天的广播节目。
Today we bring you two stories of people who tried, in one way or another, to bring a Negro boy home for the night.
今天，我们为您带来两个故事，讲述的是人们试图以某种方式带一名黑人男孩回家过夜的故事。
Act One is a story about intermarriage.
第一幕是一个关于异族通婚的故事。
Act Two is a story about trying to take a kid out of the ghetto and put him into the Ivy League, and why that's so difficult.
第二幕讲述了试图将一个孩子带出贫民窟并让他进入常春藤盟校的故事，以及为什么这如此困难。
From WBEZ Chicago and Public Radio International, it's This American Life .
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 和国际公共广播电台的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
"October 30, 1966.
“1966 年 10 月 30 日。
Hello, home.
你好，回家。
Well, I went to have the tire patched--"
好吧，我去补轮胎了——”
This is a typical letter home from college.
这是一封典型的大学回家信。
There's chitchat about a tire that needed to be fixed and senior class pictures, how much they should cost, and should she pay for better ones so her grandmother could have a better one?
有人闲聊需要修理的轮胎和高年级的照片，它们应该花多少钱，以及她是否应该花钱买更好的，以便她的祖母可以拥有更好的？
And then slowly, the woman writing this letter gets to the whole point of the letter.
然后慢慢地，写这封信的女人明白了这封信的全部要点。
"I went to a good play last night, Misalliance by George Bernard Shaw.
“昨晚我看了一场精彩的戏剧，萧伯纳的《误会》。
A friend of mine was in it, but he wasn't any good.
我的一个朋友也参与其中，但他的表现并不好。
I went with Richard Robinson." Oh!
我和理查德·罗宾逊一起去了。”哦！
"A track runner, singer, dancer, all-around good looker, religious, and liked by everyone.
“田径运动员、歌手、舞蹈家、全能美貌、宗教信仰，受到所有人的喜爱。
He's one of the nicest people I know.
他是我认识的最好的人之一。
And he's Negro.
他是黑人。
I had to tell you.
我必须告诉你。
I've never kept any secrets from you and this wasn't going to be one.
我从来没有向你隐瞒过任何秘密，这次也不会。
I hope you're not angry.
我希望你不要生气。
Even you would like him.
连你都会喜欢他。
No one minded.
没有人介意。
Bill Crowell was there and real nice to both of us.
比尔·克罗威尔（Bill Crowell）在那儿，对我们俩都很好。
I don't know why there has to be a racial problem anyway.
我不知道为什么一定会有种族问题。
I had so much better time with him than I do with Bob or David [?
我和他在一起的时光比和鲍勃或大卫在一起的时光要好得多[？
Kiechle ?] or Bill Crowell or Roger Heckerman and he treated me like a queen.
基奇勒？] 或比尔·克罗威尔或罗杰·赫克曼，他对待我就像女王一样。
Sad, isn't it?
很难过，不是吗？
Please don't think I'm being a rebel.
请不要认为我是叛逆者。
I love you both very much and am proud to be close enough to my parents to tell them everything, whether or not I know they will disagree with me.
我非常爱你们俩，并且很自豪能够与我的父母足够亲近，告诉他们一切，无论我是否知道他们会不同意我的观点。
I'm sure it makes us all better people.
我确信它会让我们所有人成为更好的人。
I love you, OK?
我爱你，好吗？
Love, Julia.
爱，朱莉娅。
Well, the narrator of our first story is not actually this woman.
好吧，我们第一个故事的叙述者实际上并不是这个女人。
It's her son named Rich Robinson, one of the three children she had with the Negro boy after she brought him home for the night and married him.
这是她的儿子，名叫里奇·罗宾逊，是她带这个黑人男孩回家过夜并结婚后与他生下的三个孩子之一。
She and her husband got together in that period in the '60s after the passage of the Voting Rights Act and before the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. And they lived the dream of interracial marriage for 12 years.
她和她的丈夫在20世纪60年代投票权法案通过之后、马丁·路德·金博士遇刺之前聚在一起。他们实现了跨种族婚姻的梦想12年。
And then, around the time that our nation started edging away from the goals and ideals of the Civil Rights Movement, they split up.
然后，在我们的国家开始逐渐偏离民权运动的目标和理想的时候，他们分裂了。
The woman, Julia, has remarried to a white guy named Jan.
这名女子名叫朱莉娅，已与一位名叫简的白人再婚。
The man, Richard Sr., remarried to a black woman named Debbie.
这名男子名叫老理查德，与一位名叫黛比的黑人妇女再婚。
And each of them returned to their separate, segregated worlds, leaving the kids to figure out what to make of the whole experiment.
他们每个人都回到了各自独立的世界，让孩子们自己思考整个实验的结果。
To what degree did race push them apart, destroy their marriage?
种族在多大程度上使他们疏远、破坏了他们的婚姻？
And for that matter, to what degree had race brought them together in the first place?
就此而言，种族在多大程度上将他们带到了一起？
Well, a few months ago, their son, Rich Robinson, went to figure all this out.
几个月前，他们的儿子里奇·罗宾逊（Rich Robinson）开始解决这一切。
And they were subjects that he had never discussed, incredibly had never discussed, with either of his parents.
而这些话题他从来没有和他的父母讨论过，令人难以置信的是从来没有讨论过。
Here's his story.
这是他的故事。
When I started working on this story, I didn't realize there was a question about my life-- my life today-- at the heart of it.
当我开始写这个故事时，我并没有意识到它的核心是关于我的生活——我今天的生活——的一个问题。
Then one Sunday morning, I got into this discussion with my roommates.
然后一个周日的早上，我和我的室友开始了这个讨论。
And the topic switched from my parents to mixed marriages in the '60s to me.
话题从我的父母转向了六十年代的异族通婚。
I was saying that I date both white and black women.
我是说我同时和白人女性和黑人女性约会。
They were saying I was crazy.
他们说我疯了。
She was white.
她是白人。
She was white all through--
她全身都是白的——
She was white.
她是白人。
Male Roommate --and through, my friend.
男室友——我的朋友。
They start listing all the women that they know I've dated, about seven of them.
他们开始列出他们知道我约会过的所有女性，大约有七位。
Sam was half Colombian, Julianna, who's Brazilian, Amanda--
萨姆有一半哥伦比亚血统，朱莉安娜有巴西血统，阿曼达——
Amanda.
阿曼达.
Can you get any whiter?
可以再白一点吗？
She's more white than the white people that I know.
她比我认识的白人更白。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Who else?
还有谁？
Pam?
帕姆？
Amy?
艾米？
Can't get any whiter than that.
没有比这更白的了
Julianna.
朱莉安娜.
OK, I'll give you a 10% darkness over there.
好的，我给你 10% 的黑暗度。
Why are you so worried about this thing?
你为什么这么担心这件事？
Are you worried that you're going to end up marrying a white girl?
你担心你最终会嫁给一个白人女孩吗？
First of all, I'm never going to marry a white girl.
首先，我永远不会娶一个白人女孩。
It's just a bad idea.
这只是一个坏主意。
Male Roommate Why?
男室友 为什么？
I hadn't put a lot of thought behind my answer to their question.
我对他们的问题的回答并没有经过太多思考。
I just knew in my mind that I had an answer, though I had never said this out loud to anyone.
我心里知道我已经有了答案，尽管我从未对任何人大声说过。
I always just assumed I would never marry a white girl, that those relationships don't work out, probably because I watched my parents' interracial marriage end.
我一直以为我永远不会娶一个白人女孩，这些关系不会成功，可能是因为我看着我父母的异族婚姻结束。
I assumed that race had something to do with it, that my blond-haired, blue-eyed, Indiana farm girl mother and my black, Brooklyn-born father were doomed from the start, destined to end up in separate worlds.
我认为种族与此有关，我的金发蓝眼睛的印第安纳农场女孩母亲和我的布鲁克林出生的黑人父亲从一开始就注定要进入不同的世界。
Now that they're divorced, my parents' integration is completely undone, except for my sisters and me.
现在他们离婚了，除了我和我的姐妹之外，我父母的融合完全被破坏了。
Though, if you ask my white grandmother, my mother's mother, my sisters and I aren't proof of anything.
不过，如果你问我的白人祖母、我母亲的母亲、我的姐妹和我并不能证明任何事情。
I said you don't sound like a black person than you aren't black, because I'm white and you're my grandson.
我说你听起来不像黑人，就像你不是黑人一样，因为我是白人，而你是我的孙子。
So black people should sound a certain way?
那么黑人听起来应该有某种特定的方式吗？
They do.
他们确实这么做了。
I don't know why they should or not.
我不知道他们为什么应该或不应该。
Well, they don't-- there's a few them that may sound a little black or a little like they're from the South, I should say.
嗯，他们不——我应该说，有一些听起来可能有点黑，或者有点像来自南方。
But I don't know.
但我不知道。
No no, no. Of course they don't all sound black.
不不不。当然，他们并不都是黑人。
But you sure don't.
但你肯定不知道。
Well, I want to know why you didn't have many black friends in high school.
嗯，我想知道为什么你在高中时没有很多黑人朋友。
I never saw you with a black person in high school.
我高中时从未见过你和黑人在一起。
Are you about to tell me that you had some black friends in high school?
你要告诉我你在高中时有一些黑人朋友吗？
Would that make me black?
这会让我变黑吗？
Grandma Well, I just wonder.
奶奶 好吧，我只是想知道。
I'm just getting back at you.
我只是回复你而已。
You're almost like you're accusing me.
你几乎就像在指责我一样。
So how do you see your grandkids racially, then?
那么你如何看待你的孙辈的种族呢？
White.
白色。
I really do.
我真的这么做。
Rich Robinson Why is that?
里奇·罗宾逊 这是为什么？
Because I'm white.
因为我是白人。
I don't-- I can't help it.
我不——我情不自禁。
I just can't see you being black.
我就是看不出来你是黑人。
I just can't.
我就是不能。
Really.
真的。
Is it embarrassing to think you have black grandchildren?
想到自己有黑人孙子会感到尴尬吗？
Not to me, it isn't.
对我来说不是，不是。
I don't think I got any black grandchildren.
我想我没有黑人孙子。
Not at all.
一点也不。
So my grandmother has an issue with me being black, my parents have issues with each other, and I have issues with white girls.
所以我的祖母对我是黑人有意见，我的父母彼此有意见，我和白人女孩有意见。
But that's today, when everything is already messed up.
但到了今天，一切都已经一团糟了。
Let's go back to a simpler time, before it all began.
让我们回到一切开始之前的更简单的时光。
Both my parents went to Indiana University in the '60s.
我的父母都在 60 年代就读于印第安纳大学。
That's where they met.
那是他们相遇的地方。
Mom had been valedictorian.
妈妈曾是告别演说者。
She was in college on scholarship.
她靠奖学金上大学。
She was going to be a foreign language major, and when she graduated, she was going to be a translator for the UN.
她本打算主修外语，毕业后将成为联合国的一名翻译。
Part of the plan was to go to Europe for a semester.
计划的一部分是去欧洲一个学期。
When she came back, her roommate had been assigned to someone else, and she had gotten a new roommate, a black girl named Clara.
当她回来的时候，她的室友已经被分配给了别人，而她又换了一个新室友，一个名叫克拉拉的黑人女孩。
And that was my first experience of really mixing with the black kids, because Clara and I would go to lunch together, or meals together.
那是我第一次真正与黑人孩子交往的经历，因为克拉拉和我会一起去吃午饭，或者一起吃饭。
And I would sit at a table with black kids.
我会和黑人孩子坐在一张桌子旁。
And so that was really kind of how it happened.
事情就是这样发生的。
And then I started going to functions with Clara.
然后我开始和克拉拉一起去参加活动。
Clara would go to the black fraternity and sorority parties and I would go.
克拉拉会去黑人兄弟会和姐妹会聚会，我也会去。
I don't know if I would have done that before I went to Europe.
我不知道在去欧洲之前我是否会这么做。
I think going to Europe had something to do with it just because it broadened my way of thinking, perhaps.
我认为去欧洲可能与此有关，因为它拓宽了我的思维方式。
If I hadn't gone to Europe and been assigned a black roommate, I don't think it would have happened.
如果我没有去欧洲并被分配一个黑人室友，我认为这不会发生。
Well, I used to go watch him practice track a lot, which was over here.
嗯，我经常去看他练习田径，就在这里。
You want to go over there?
你想去那儿吗？
Because that was--
因为那是——
My mom and I drove around the Indiana University campus.
我和妈妈开车绕着印第安纳大学校园转了一圈。
She showed me where she and my dad met, where they lived, and where they went to parties and dances at my dad's black fraternity, Omega Psi Phi.
她向我展示了她和我父亲相遇的地方、他们住在哪里、以及他们去哪里参加我父亲的黑人兄弟会 Omega Psi Phi 的聚会和舞会。
You know the other thing that was just kind of hard for me to get used to was that their parties never started until 10:00 at night.
你知道另一件让我有点难以适应的事情是他们的派对直到晚上 10:00 才开始。
At least 10:00, maybe later.
至少 10:00，也许更晚。
And we had dorm curfews then.
那时我们宿舍实行宵禁。
And I was still a pretty good girl.
而且我仍然是一个很好的女孩。
I didn't stay out all night.
我整晚都没有在外面呆着。
So I had to stay out all night with him because I couldn't get back into the dorm.
所以我不得不和他一起在外面过夜，因为我无法回到宿舍。
And that was an annoyance to me.
这让我很烦恼。
I always thought, why can't they start the parties like normal white people do?
我一直在想，为什么他们不能像普通白人那样举办派对呢？
[LAUGHTER] Julia And this is the other thing.
[笑声] 朱莉娅 这是另一回事。
Everybody else would be gone on their dates already.
其他人都已经去约会了。
And I would be the only person left in the dorm waiting for this black party to start!
而我将是宿舍里唯一等待这场黑人派对开始的人！
Me and the black girls left in the dorm.
我和黑人女孩离开了宿舍。
All the white girls are gone already.
所有的白人女孩都已经走了。
My mom was so white to me at that moment.
那一刻我妈妈对我来说真是太白人了。
Growing up, I just thought of her as my mother.
从小到大，我只把她当作我的母亲。
But as she told me this, she seemed like the whitest white person in the world.
但当她告诉我这件事时，她似乎是世界上最白的白人。
I asked my mom how she met my father.
我问妈妈她是怎么认识我爸爸的。
She said they met in a cafeteria.
她说他们是在一家自助餐厅认识的。
She said Clara and her were getting lunch.
她说克拉拉和她正在吃午饭。
I remember exactly how this happened.
我清楚地记得这是怎么发生的。
We were standing in line at the cafeteria, and Richard was so many people in front of us around the corner, like we could see him maybe 30 feet away.
我们在自助餐厅排队，拐角处理查德在我们前面有很多人，就像我们可以在 30 英尺外看到他一样。
And I said, "Clare, I want you to introduce me to him.
我说：“克莱尔，我想让你把我介绍给他。
He is gorgeous." And he has something about his legs.
他很漂亮。”他的腿也很有特色。
Because he used to wear these faded, almost threadbare corduroys that fit him like a glove.
因为他过去常常穿着这些褪色、几乎破旧的灯芯绒衣服，但它们就像手套一样适合他。
And his muscles were so defined from track that his leg muscles would just bulge through these-- [GIGGLES].
他的肌肉在赛道上轮廓分明，以至于他的腿部肌肉会从这些肌肉中凸出——[咯咯笑]。
And I wanted to meet him because of his legs.
我因为他的腿而想见见他。
This is terrible.
这太可怕了。
It was totally lust.
这完全是欲望。
What attracted you to Mom?
妈妈什么吸引了你？
Richard Robinson I think it was the times that we were going through, in terms of Martin Luther King era, in regard to looking toward being open to any race and thinking things were going to change.
理查德·罗宾逊（Richard Robinson） 我认为，就马丁·路德·金时代而言，我们正在经历这样一个时代，即寻求对任何种族持开放态度，并认为事情将会发生变化。
And then everybody was going to be accepted as anyone else.
然后每个人都会像其他人一样被接受。
That's about as far as my father goes when he talks about dating my mom.
当我父亲谈到和我妈妈约会时，他就说到这里了。
He doesn't talk about her.
他不谈论她。
He talks about the openness of the '60s and the attitude of the era, as if the '60s had been dating my mom instead of him.
他谈到了 60 年代的开放性和时代态度，就好像 60 年代一直在和我妈妈而不是他约会。
My mom also recalls being caught up in the times.
我妈妈也回忆起自己被时代所吸引。
I remember very clearly believing that it was going to be a different world, and that-- you know, John F.
我记得非常清楚，我相信这将是一个不同的世界，而且——你知道，约翰·F·布什 (John F.
Kennedy and then Martin Luther King-- that the world was going to change and that we wouldn't live in a racially divided country anymore.
肯尼迪和后来的马丁·路德·金——世界将会改变，我们将不再生活在一个种族分裂的国家。
And so I had no doubt at that time that my kids would live in a totally different environment than I had grown up in, that there wouldn't be any racial prejudice when you guys were growing up.
所以我当时毫不怀疑我的孩子会生活在一个与我成长完全不同的环境中，你们成长过程中不会有任何种族偏见。
Neither of my parents was an activist.
我的父母都不是活动家。
They weren't trying to change the world.
他们并没有试图改变世界。
But clearly half the fun of finding each other was the thrill of mixing with someone of the other race.
但显然，找到彼此的一半乐趣来自于与其他种族的人混在一起的兴奋。
After a year of dating, my mom got pregnant and they decided to get married.
约会一年后，我妈妈怀孕了，他们决定结婚。
The ceremony was small.
仪式规模很小。
Both my parents' families disapproved of the marriage.
我父母双方的家人都不同意这桩婚事。
In fact, my father's sister Bernice remembers my white grandmother call my black grandmother on the phone before the wedding to propose that they form an interracial coalition to stop the marriage.
事实上，我父亲的妹妹伯妮斯记得我的白人祖母在婚礼前给我的黑人祖母打电话，提议他们组成一个跨种族联盟来阻止婚姻。
Neither grandmother admits to remembering this, but neither came to the wedding either.
两位祖母都不承认记得这件事，但也都没有来参加婚礼。
Oh, this was written the night of our wedding.
哦，这是我们新婚之夜写的。
"Tonight is the night, as I guess Janey has told you.
“今晚就是晚上，我想珍妮已经告诉过你了。
We talked to Pastor Stefan Tuesday evening and decided to arrange things for this weekend since the next two weeks are going to be full of study for final exams and moving, we hope.
我们周二晚上与斯特凡牧师交谈，并决定安排这个周末的事情，因为我们希望接下来的两周将充满期末考试和搬家的学习。
I'm going to wear that pale blue cocktail dress, size 11, it fits me again, and a white mantilla and black patent shoes.
我要穿那件 11 码的淡蓝色鸡尾酒会礼服，它又适合我，还有白色头巾和黑色漆皮鞋。
Daddy, I'm sending you my tax statement.
爸爸，我正在向您发送我的纳税申报单。
Would you rather I fill out the forms?
您愿意我填写表格吗？
I'm taking Personal Finance next semester which will teach me all about insurance and taxes and things like that.
下学期我将学习个人理财，这将教我有关保险和税收之类的所有知识。
Have you told Grandma and Grandpa yet or Janine and Buddy?
你告诉奶奶和爷爷或者珍妮和巴迪了吗？
Is it all right if I write to the aunts and uncles?
我给叔叔阿姨们写信可以吗？
Whatever you want me to do is OK, but I'd rather tell everyone now.
你想让我做什么都可以，但我宁愿现在告诉大家。
That's all for now, I guess.
我想，现在就这些了。
I'm so sorry that this is so hard for you to understand and accept.
非常抱歉，这让您难以理解和接受。
I know it will be an uphill road from now on, but we could do it.
我知道从现在开始这将是一条艰难的道路，但我们可以做到。
Much love, Jul."
非常有爱，朱尔。”
And after I was married to him, it didn't take me very long to realize that it was going to be a fairly successful marriage because his value system was very close to mine.
在我和他结婚后，没过多久我就意识到这将是一段相当成功的婚姻，因为他的价值观非常接近我的价值观。
He's very family oriented.
他非常注重家庭。
He came from a middle-class upbringing which valued education.
他出身于重视教育的中产阶级家庭。
And so I didn't think it was very difficult to be married to him, even though I hadn't planned to, because the things that I wanted out of a marriage, he wanted too.
所以我不认为嫁给他有什么困难，尽管我没有计划，因为我想要从婚姻中得到的东西，他也想要。
And just little simple things, like going to the grocery store and being able to pick out food that I knew he was going to eat.
只是一些简单的事情，比如去杂货店并能够挑选出我知道他会吃的食物。
I didn't have to cook chitlins, which-- I guess it was easier than I expected.
我不需要煮甲壳素，我想这比我想象的要容易。
That's a stupid example.
这是一个愚蠢的例子。
But I didn't have to change anything about the way I already was.
但我不需要改变我已经存在的方式。
Church.
教堂。
He went to church with me every Sunday.
他每个星期天都和我一起去教堂。
He fit right in.
他很适合。
When he was in his fraternity, him and his group of fraternity friends, he was very outgoing, funny, loud-- like you are.
当他在他的兄弟会、他和他的一群兄弟会朋友时，他非常外向、有趣、大声——就像你一样。
People laughed when he made jokes.
当他讲笑话时，人们都笑了。
And he could sing really good.
而且他唱歌真的很好听。
And a lot of the fraternity functions, they would have what they called a line.
很多兄弟会的活动，他们都会有所谓的排队。
And he was in this little quartet with Arthur-somebody from New York.
他和来自纽约的亚瑟一起组成了这个小四人组。
And John Brooks was in the quartet and somebody else.
约翰·布鲁克斯和其他人也在四重奏中。
And they did all these little Temptation numbers where they would dance together.
他们一起表演了所有这些小诱惑节目，他们会一起跳舞。
And so most of the time when I was with him, he was fun to be around.
所以当我和他在一起的大部分时间里，和他在一起很有趣。
But what was lacking, I guess, the jump between that and getting married was that we never had any conversation.
但我想，从结婚到结婚之间的差距是我们从未进行过任何交谈。
I didn't know him at all.
我根本不认识他。
Other than the fact that we had sex together all the time, it wasn't like you'd sit down and have long conversations getting to know each other.
除了我们一直在一起做爱这一事实之外，你们不会坐下来进行长时间的交谈来了解对方。
Because he doesn't talk.
因为他不说话。
You can't get to know somebody who doesn't talk.
你无法认识一个不说话的人。
Bernice and Grandma said they were both surprised when he said he was getting married.
伯妮斯和奶奶说，当他说自己要结婚时，她们都感到很惊讶。
And one of the reasons was, "Cause he don't talk!"
原因之一是，“因为他不说话！”
This is the thing about my father, he doesn't talk.
这是我父亲的事，他不说话。
Everyone in the family knows this.
家里的每个人都知道这一点。
It's an established fact, an elemental property of my dad.
这是既定的事实，是我父亲的基本财产。
My grandmother says he learned this from her.
我祖母说他是从她那里学到这一点的。
That's the best way.
这是最好的办法。
Don't you think?
你不觉得吗？
When you talk so much, you get in trouble.
当你说得太多时，你就会遇到麻烦。
With who?
和谁一起？
Grandma Robinson Those think it best you don't talk so much.
罗宾逊奶奶 他们认为你最好别说那么多。
The long-term plan after graduation was to move to Brooklyn, back to my dad's hometown.
毕业后的长期计划是搬到布鲁克林，回到我父亲的家乡。
My mother wrote home about it.
我母亲写信回家讲述了这件事。
"Robby is so excited about going back.
“罗比对回去感到非常兴奋。
All his friends are there and I don't think he ever wants to live anywhere else.
他所有的朋友都在那里，我认为他不想住在其他地方。
I want to have a house in the country, but--" God, I can't believe I thought I was getting a house in the country near New York!
我想在乡下有一所房子，但是——“上帝，我不敢相信我以为我在纽约附近的乡下买了一所房子！
That's awesome.
太棒了。
Julia "Say hi--" I'm telling you, Rich!
朱莉娅“打个招呼——”我告诉你，里奇！
You don't understand.
你不明白。
I was so small-towny.
我是如此小镇。
Had you been to New York?
你去过纽约吗？
Julia No. Obviously not.
朱莉娅 不，显然不是。
It turns out my dad romanticized some things too.
事实证明，我父亲也把一些事情浪漫化了。
Brooklyn had changed a lot since he grew up.
自从他长大后，布鲁克林发生了很大的变化。
Now there were bums in the park, abandoned stores, and riot gates.
现在公园里到处都是流浪汉、废弃的商店和防暴门。
At the school where my dad worked, the kids were breaking windows and starting fires and attacking teachers.
在我父亲工作的学校，孩子们打破窗户、放火并攻击老师。
My dad hated that there was nowhere he felt safe letting us kids run around.
我爸爸讨厌没有地方让我们这些孩子到处乱跑，让他觉得安全。
And my mom hated sharing a kitchen with the cockroaches.
我妈妈讨厌和蟑螂共用一个厨房。
Their apartment was right next to the El, so it was loud and everything-- furniture, clothes, kids-- was always covered in a fine layer of soot.
他们的公寓就在 El 旁边，所以很吵，所有东西——家具、衣服、孩子——总是覆盖着一层薄薄的烟灰。
And they were real poor.
他们真的很穷。
My father's substitute teaching job barely paid the rent.
我父亲的代课工作勉强够付房租。
In Indiana, my parents had fun together.
在印第安纳州，我的父母在一起玩得很开心。
It wasn't like that in New York.
纽约可不是这样的。
Everything was all about working and struggling to survive.
一切都是为了工作和生存而奋斗。
Finally, someone threw a brick through their window, breaking glass all over the living room where my sister and I had been playing only a few minutes earlier.
最后，有人向窗户扔了一块砖头，几分钟前我和妹妹还在玩的客厅里到处都是玻璃。
Within a week, my parents packed up a U-Haul and drove straight back to Indiana.
一周之内，我的父母收拾好一辆 U-Haul 车，直接开回印第安纳州。
They lived in Brooklyn only six months.
他们在布鲁克林只住了六个月。
If there's a tragedy in this story, it begins here.
如果说这个故事有悲剧的话，那就是从这里开始的。
As hard as things were in Brooklyn, I think my parents' marriage could have made it there, with my dad living in a world he was used to, surrounded by friends and family, and my mother happily exploring a different world.
尽管布鲁克林的情况很艰难，但我认为我父母的婚姻本来可以在那里度过，我的父亲生活在他习惯的世界里，周围都是朋友和家人，而我的母亲则快乐地探索一个不同的世界。
But Indianapolis ate away at my father.
但印第安纳波利斯吞噬了我父亲。
At first, it was just like he wanted.
起初，这正是他想要的。
The streets were wide, clean, and empty, with trees on both sides and grass that was always greener.
街道宽阔、干净、空旷，两旁绿树成荫，草永远更绿。
A canal meanders through the city.
一条运河蜿蜒穿过城市。
Indianapolis was the opposite of Brooklyn.
印第安纳波利斯与布鲁克林相反。
It made parenting easy and fun.
它让养育孩子变得简单而有趣。
We flew kites in the summer and built snow forts in the winter.
夏天我们放风筝，冬天我们搭建雪堡。
I found an old reel-to-reel tape of my father, my sister, and me in those early days.
我找到了一卷我父亲、姐姐和我早年的旧磁带。
What did we make yesterday?
昨天我们做了什么？
Young Rich Robinson Snowman.
年轻的里奇·罗宾逊雪人。
Today, we made a snowman [UNINTELLIGIBLE].
今天，我们堆了一个雪人[无法理解]。
Today, I'll go make a Daddy snowman.
今天，我要去给爸爸堆雪人。
That's great.
太好了。
We'll make a Daddy snowman today.
今天我们要给爸爸堆一个雪人。
[BABY NOISES] Rich Robinson We spent Christmas that first year at my grandparents' 80-acre farm with my mother's family.
[婴儿噪音] Rich Robinson 第一年的圣诞节我们和母亲一家人在祖父母占地 80 英亩的农场度过。
Dad saw how beautiful it was there, how perfect for us kids to run around and explore.
爸爸看到那里多么美丽，多么适合我们孩子到处奔跑和探索。
We went back for Easter and then Thanksgiving and Christmas again and every year for the next eight years.
我们回去过复活节，然后又回去过感恩节和圣诞节，接下来的八年里每年都回去。
We practically had forgot about my dad's family in Brooklyn.
我们几乎忘记了我父亲在布鲁克林的家人。
That's how my dad's sister, Bernice, remembers it.
我父亲的妹妹伯妮斯就是这样回忆的。
And we didn't see Richard again for about 10 years.
我们大约有十年没有再见到理查德了。
The only thing we knew is-- we called every now and then.
我们唯一知道的是——我们时不时地打电话。
And we knew that he had moved into a trailer and he had bought a house and then he sold that house and he was somewhere else.
我们知道他搬进了一辆拖车，买了一套房子，然后他卖掉了那栋房子，他去了别的地方。
We just kind of casually kept in contact with him.
我们只是随意地和他保持着联系。
And that was it.
就是这样。
We'd get a Christmas card.
我们会收到一张圣诞贺卡。
And maybe once a year, we'd get a phone call.
也许每年一次，我们都会接到电话。
That was it.
就是这样。
He was completely detached from the family.
他完全脱离了这个家庭。
In this new world, no one was black except my father.
在这个新世界里，除了我父亲之外，没有人是黑人。
He never saw his family, he didn't make any friends, he didn't keep in touch with his old college friends.
他从未见过他的家人，他没有交到任何朋友，他也没有和他的大学老朋友保持联系。
I asked my dad who he hung out with in Indiana when my parents were married.
我问我爸爸，当我父母结婚时，他在印第安纳州和谁一起出去玩。
I don't know whether you'd say hang out.
我不知道你是否会说出去玩。
There was occasions that you'd go to in terms of gatherings, but I didn't hang out with anyone.
有时候你会去参加聚会，但我没有和任何人出去玩。
I had things to do.
我还有事要做。
I was pretty much on my own or pretty much an entity within myself.
我几乎是一个人，或者说我自己就是一个实体。
It was just mainly children, my children.
主要是孩子们，我的孩子们。
It wasn't many friends at all.
根本就没有多少朋友。
I used to think then, I used to think it was very sad.
我当时就想，我曾经觉得这是非常悲伤的。
I remember feeling this way.
我记得有这样的感觉。
The few times that we went back to New York, he would flip into a whole alter person, second person-- like a schizophrenic personality, a totally different person.
有几次我们回到纽约，他就会变成一个完全不同的人，第二个人——就像一个精神分裂症患者，一个完全不同的人。
We'd go to New York.
我们会去纽约。
He'd be hanging out with Poke, laughing.
他会和波克一起出去玩，笑着。
His brother, laughing.
他的兄弟，笑了。
His sister, laughing.
他的妹妹，笑了。
Drinking a lot, partying, just like I remembered him in college before we got married.
喝了很多酒，参加了聚会，就像我结婚前大学时记忆中的他一样。
It was like all of a sudden, we're back in this fraternity party mode again, real easy about everything, never uptight, never with this, you know the stand that he does with his hands across his chest where he looks like he's holding everything in, being tough?
就好像突然之间，我们又回到了兄弟会聚会模式，对一切都很轻松，从不紧张，从来没有这样，你知道他双手交叉在胸前的姿势，看起来他把一切都握在手里，很坚强？
He never stands like that in New York.
他在纽约从来没有这样站过。
And so he was just back to his normal self.
于是他就恢复了正常的状态。
And then we'd come back to Indiana and he'd go back into this person again, like he was this black man living in this white world kind of thing, that he wasn't himself.
然后我们回到印第安纳州，他会再次回到这个人身上，就像他是一个生活在这个白人世界中的黑人一样，他不再是他自己了。
Your dad never took me to a black function.
你爸爸从来没有带我去参加黑人活动。
Everything we did was in my world.
我们所做的一切都在我的世界里。
So I don't think that was fair.
所以我认为这不公平。
I didn't marry into that.
我没有嫁给那个。
When I was dating him, the thing I liked about him was that I was living in another culture environment.
当我和他约会时，我喜欢他的一点是我生活在另一种文化环境中。
You have to understand, I'm a foreign language major.
你要明白，我是外语专业的。
I like cultures.
我喜欢文化。
It's important to me.
这对我很重要。
So he kind of deprived me, or our marriage I think, of that cultural experience because he didn't contribute to it.
所以他剥夺了我或者我认为我们的婚姻的文化体验，因为他没有对此做出贡献。
My father became someone else in Indiana, a completely different person.
我的父亲在印第安纳州变成了另一个人，一个完全不同的人。
And this new face he put on is the face that I recognize and that I picture when I think about him.
他所换上的这张新面孔是我所认识的，并且是我在想起他时脑海中浮现的面孔。
I can't imagine my father dancing and drinking or laughing with a posse of black friends.
我无法想象我的父亲和一群黑人朋友一起跳舞、喝酒或大笑。
My father is someone who never took a sick day from work, who was always home and always responsible.
我的父亲是一个从来没有请过病假的人，他总是待在家里并且总是负责任。
He is a withdrawn and lonely father of three in a white city.
他是一座白色城市中三个孩子的孤僻孤僻的父亲。
No, it didn't pan out that well for myself.
不，我自己的表现并不好。
No, I didn't have much of anything.
不，我什么都没有。
I just kind of walked away from all I knew and everything that was a part of me.
我只是远离了我所知道的一切以及属于我的一切。
If there was a personality change, it might have been as a result of that.
如果说性格发生了变化，那也可能就是这个结果。
So how did you survive?
那么你是怎么活下来的呢？
Richard Robinson Well, I didn't think about.
理查德·罗宾逊：嗯，我没想过。
I just worked and raised the children.
我只是工作并抚养孩子。
At the time, that was what was important.
在当时，这才是最重要的。
I stood face to face in a doorway with my father talking about this for an hour.
我站在门口和父亲面对面谈论了一个小时。
Neither of us moved.
我们谁都没有动。
Neither of us sat down.
我们俩都没有坐下。
And as we unearthed this, I felt sorry for him and I understood why he had become who he was.
当我们发现这一点时，我为他感到难过，我明白了他为什么会变成现在这样。
It wasn't exactly that race destroyed their marriage, but it added to his isolation and subtracted from his person.
种族并不完全破坏了他们的婚姻，但种族却增加了他的孤立感，削弱了他的人格。
And that, in the end, destroyed what they had together.
最终，这摧毁了他们共同拥有的一切。
Before I started doing this story, I never talked to my parents about how their marriage failed or what their divorce was supposed to mean for me, expressly about who I choose to marry or not marry.
在我开始写这个故事之前，我从来没有和我的父母谈论过他们的婚姻是如何失败的，或者他们的离婚对我来说意味着什么，特别是关于我选择嫁给谁或不嫁给谁。
Getting my dad to sit down for one last round of questions about this wasn't easy.
让我父亲坐下来回答最后一轮有关此问题的问题并不容易。
You have to talk to me.
你必须跟我说话。
Do you know what my story is, Dad?
爸爸，你知道我的故事吗？
Well, I'll talk, but I don't want to talk forever and ever.
好吧，我会说话，但我不想永远说话。
Well, let me ask you if you know what my-- do you know what I'm doing a story on?
好吧，让我问你是否知道我的故事是什么？
I'm doing a story on my parents.
我正在写一个关于我父母的故事。
You and Mom.
你和妈妈。
I'm trying to use-- I mean, I'm not saying I'm using you as an example in my life, but I'm trying to get a message from you on what I should do, because you never, I don't know.
我试图用——我的意思是，我并不是说我用你作为我生活中的榜样，但我试图从你那里得到关于我应该做什么的信息，因为你从来不知道，我不知道。
You never say anything.
你从不说什么。
So I'm just trying to figure it out.
所以我只是想弄清楚。
And here's what I see.
这就是我所看到的。
You got married to a white woman, in whatever, '67.
你和一个白人女人结婚了，无论如何，67 年。
You guys got divorced, and all of a sudden, you're over here in a completely-- now, you're in an all-black world, right?
你们离婚了，突然之间，你们就来到了一个完全——现在，你们处在一个全黑的世界里，对吧？
Well, all your friends, your family.
好吧，你所有的朋友，你的家人。
You're happy now.
你现在很幸福。
And she's over there in an all-white world.
而她就在一个全白的世界里。
I mean, is that a lesson?
我的意思是，这是一个教训吗？
I do think it's very important not to go into something-- marriage, as you're saying, as you asked me about mixed situation-- if you're very, very young.
我确实认为，如果你非常非常年轻，不要陷入某些事情——正如你所说，当你问我关于混合情况时——婚姻，这一点非常重要。
If you're older and you've got your structure, you've got your friends, in terms of--
如果你年纪大了，你已经有了自己的结构，你就有了你的朋友，就——
So you don't think it's a mistake at all.
所以你根本不认为这是一个错误。
I think you can do all right.
我想你可以做的很好。
And where you live is still kind of important, in terms of the state.
就州而言，你居住的地方仍然很重要。
If a person were in New York or perhaps even California-- and there's probably other places that I don't know about, then it doesn't really matter what.
如果一个人在纽约，甚至可能在加利福尼亚州——而且可能还有其他我不知道的地方，那么是什么并不重要。
This is not the answer I expected from him.
这不是我期望从他那里得到的答案。
He thinks intermarriage can work so long as you're not isolated from your own race the way he was in Indiana.
他认为，只要你不像印第安纳州那样与自己的种族隔绝，异族通婚就可以发挥作用。
It's not the answer I wanted.
这不是我想要的答案。
You know what my-- I have this Asian friend.
你知道我有一个亚洲朋友。
Girlfriend.
女朋友。
Well, friend-girl.
好吧，朋友女孩。
You know what she said to me about mixed marriages?
你知道她对我说了什么关于异族通婚的事吗？
She said, you can never marry a white girl because she'll never understand.
她说，你永远不能娶一个白人女孩，因为她永远不会理解。
Well, I don't know what there is in back of that thought, in terms of what she's saying, other than if she's saying that they'll never understand where you're coming from in terms of your history, or something like that, if you haven't felt it, tasted it, lived it, I don't know.
好吧，我不知道这个想法的背后是什么，就她所说的话而言，除了她说他们永远不会理解你的历史来自哪里，或者类似的东西，如果你没有感觉到它，尝到它，经历过它，我不知道。
So some things will probably go beyond explanation.
所以有些事情可能无法解释。
You just know.
你只知道。
If you have to start explaining this, it don't work.
如果你必须开始解释这一点，那是行不通的。
Impossible.
不可能的。
His answer is sort of ambiguous, but the way I take this, and the way I want to take this, is that he agrees with me, that a white woman will never understand.
他的回答有点模棱两可，但我的看法以及我想要的看法是，他同意我的观点，而白人女性永远不会理解这一点。
Did Mom ever understand?
妈妈听懂了吗？
Richard Robinson I don't know if I could say she understood or not understood.
理查德罗宾逊 我不知道我是否可以说她理解或不理解。
But I think that she is a product of her upbringing.
但我认为她是她成长的产物。
And I am a product of my upbringing.
我是我成长的产物。
And that doesn't mean it's bad, but it is somewhat different.
这并不意味着它不好，但它有些不同。
Again, his answer is blurry, but that's just the way he talks.
再次，他的回答很模糊，但这就是他说话的方式。
I'm pretty sure what he's saying is that she didn't understand.
我很确定他说的话她听不懂。
My mom disagrees completely.
我妈妈完全不同意。
When I call her up to talk about this, I tell her that the lesson I take from their divorce is that interracial marriage doesn't work.
当我打电话给她谈论这件事时，我告诉她，我从他们离婚中得到的教训是，异族通婚是行不通的。
Would I agree with that?
我同意吗？
No. Not at all.
不，一点也不。
No, I really don't think that it had anything to do with race.
不，我真的不认为这与种族有任何关系。
I think it had to do with other things.
我认为这与其他事情有关。
I always thought that our marriage was like anybody else's marriage.
我一直以为我们的婚姻就像其他人的婚姻一样。
You talk about the same things.
你们谈论同样的事情。
You talk about money or your kids or what you're going to do on the weekend or whatever.
你们谈论金钱、孩子、周末要做什么等等。
The color of skin was the only thing that was different.
肤色是唯一不同的地方。
But the falling apart had nothing to do with that, I don't think.
但我不认为崩溃与此无关。
At least not from my point of view.
至少从我的角度来看不是。
It may have from your dad's.
可能是你父亲的。
But it didn't for me at all.
但这根本不适合我。
Well, since college, I kind of changed my opinion.
嗯，自从大学以来，我改变了我的看法。
I don't think I'm ever going to-- I don't think I'm going to marry white.
我不认为我会——我不认为我会嫁给白人。
And one of my friends was telling me, and she kind of gave me the good reason in my head, she said, "You can never marry a white woman because she'll never understand."
我的一位朋友告诉我，她给了我一个很好的理由，她说，“你永远不能娶一个白人女人，因为她永远不会理解。”
Well, that's probably true.
嗯，这可能是真的。
I'm not going to be upset if you marry a black girl, for sure.
如果你娶了一个黑人女孩，我当然不会生气。
I don't care one way or the other, as long as you're happy.
我不在乎任何一种方式，只要你幸福就好。
These are issues like religion.
这些都是像宗教这样的问题。
Everybody has their own personal feeling about it, and you don't have to agree.
每个人都有自己的个人感受，你不必同意。
I ask my mom what I asked my dad, if she thinks a white woman can understand a black man, specifically me.
我问我妈妈我问过我爸爸什么，她是否认为白人女性可以理解黑人，特别是我。
If you are open I think they can.
如果你是开放的，我想他们可以。
When people get married to each other, they're supposed to be intimate with all of their thoughts.
当人们结婚时，他们应该清楚地了解彼此的所有想法。
And if you are, then you can understand another person.
如果你是，那么你就能理解另一个人。
I don't think the race gets in the way of that.
我不认为比赛会妨碍这一点。
Well, why do you think it makes a difference to me then?
那么，你为什么认为这对我有影响呢？
Maybe you're more conscious of it because you're neither.
也许你更意识到这一点，因为你两者都不是。
It's not true.
这不是真的。
Julia I don't know.
朱莉娅 我不知道。
Do you feel uncomfortable in both worlds in a way?
在某种程度上，你在这两个世界中都感到不舒服吗？
Yeah.
是的。
And I don't really want to lose either part.
我真的不想失去任何一部分。
Well, that's one of those human dilemmas.
嗯，这就是人类的困境之一。
You just have to work on it for the rest of your life.
你只需要用你的余生去努力。
Here's what I figured out doing this story.
这就是我在写这个故事时想到的。
I still can't imagine marrying a white woman, but not because I believe race destroyed my parents' marriage.
我仍然无法想象与白人女性结婚，但这并不是因为我相信种族破坏了我父母的婚姻。
I don't really believe that anymore.
我真的不再相信这一点了。
but because I realize I'm used to crossing between two worlds, and I want someone who can do that with me.
但因为我意识到我已经习惯了穿越两个世界，我想要有人能和我一起做到这一点。
And for better or worse, right or wrong, I just can't imagine having a blond-haired, blue-eyed girlfriend standing next to me at the Black Poets Society.
不管是好还是坏，对还是错，我都无法想象在黑人诗社里有一个金发蓝眼睛的女朋友站在我旁边。
As for my parents, my mom says she barely knows any black people anymore.
至于我的父母，我妈妈说她几乎不再认识任何黑人了。
And with each passing decade, she says, her world has gotten whiter.
她说，每过十年，她的世界就变得更加白色。
Meanwhile, my father's going to dances again put on by the Kappas, the same fraternity that threw most of the parties while he was in college.
与此同时，我父亲将再次参加卡帕兄弟会举办的舞会，他在大学期间举办的大部分派对都是由这个兄弟会举办的。
But this time, when Marvin Gaye comes on, the woman he's dancing with is black instead of white.
但这一次，当马文·盖伊出场时，与他跳舞的女人是黑人而不是白人。
And I can picture him later in the night off in some corner of the room singing "My Girl" in a line with his brothers.
我可以想象他在晚上晚些时候在房间的某个角落和他的兄弟们一起唱“我的女孩”。
Rich Robinson in New York City.
里奇·罗宾逊在纽约市。
The number of interracial marriages in the United States was 1.1 million couples in the 1990 census.
1990年的人口普查显示，美国异族通婚的数量为110万对。
That's three times more than in 1970, but still less than 2% of all marriages.
这是 1970 年的三倍，但仍不到所有婚姻的 2%。
[MUSIC - "DON'T BE AFRAID OF LOVE" BY OTIS REDDING]
[音乐 - 奥蒂斯·雷丁的《不要害怕爱情》]
Coming up, another person attempts to do what drove fear in the hearts of segregationists not that long ago.
接下来，另一个人试图做不久前在种族隔离主义者心中引起恐惧的事情。
That's in a minute from Public Radio International when our program continues.
一分钟后，国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose a theme, bring you a variety of stories on that theme.
当然，我们每周的节目都会选择一个主题，为您带来有关该主题的各种故事。
Today's program, Bring a Negro Boy Home Tonight.
今天的节目，今晚带一个黑人男孩回家。
And if that seems like a strange title, then you're just going to have to start listening to these shows from the beginning.
如果这看起来像是一个奇怪的标题，那么您就必须从头开始听这些节目。
The show is stories of people defying some of the oldest codes of behavior in our country by mixing races.
该剧讲述了人们通过混合种族来反抗我国一些最古老的行为准则的故事。
Act One of our show was about intermarriage.
我们节目的第一幕是关于异族通婚的。
Act Two is about economic integration, about trying to make the leap from one of the poorest neighborhoods in the country to where our nation's richest people live.
第二幕是关于经济一体化，关于试图从该国最贫穷的社区之一跃升为我国最富有的人居住的地方。
Cedric Jennings went to Ballou High School in a poor, black neighborhood in Southeast Washington.
塞德里克·詹宁斯就读于华盛顿东南部一个贫穷的黑人社区的巴卢高中。
It was the kind of school where honor students do not like it to be known that they're honor students.
在这种学校里，优等生不喜欢别人知道他们是优等生。
There aren't many of them, and when they spot their names posted on the big honor roll bulletin board by the main office, they would rush, some of them, to ask to be taken off.
他们的人数并不多，当他们看到总部的大荣誉榜上贴着自己的名字时，他们中的一些人会冲上去要求离开。
When administrators wanted to hold an assembly to give out academic awards, they would keep the purpose of the assembly secret even from the teachers because the teachers would then leak the information to the honor students who would then simply not show up.
当管理人员想要召开一次颁发学术奖项的大会时，他们甚至会对老师保密大会的目的，因为老师会将信息泄露给优等生，而这些学生则根本不会出现。
Well, although I was really proud of my accomplishments, I didn't want to actually see my peers respond to me in a negative way so I just avoided the assembly.
好吧，虽然我真的为自己的成就感到自豪，但我不想看到我的同事以消极的方式回应我，所以我只是避免了集会。
Honor students at his high school were teased.
他高中的优等生遭到嘲笑。
They were called whitey.
他们被称为白人。
They were ostracized.
他们被排斥。
They were threatened with physical violence.
他们受到身体暴力的威胁。
As an honor student, Cedric was constantly taunted.
作为一名优等生，塞德里克经常受到嘲笑。
He ate lunch alone in an empty classroom.
他独自在空荡荡的教室里吃午饭。
He went to church, never socialized with other kids, fearing it would make him lose focus.
他去教堂，从不与其他孩子交往，担心这会让他失去注意力。
When a person says that they want to be successful, they have to realize that there will be opposition.
当一个人说他们想要成功时，他们必须意识到会遭到反对。
And despite what opposition says, when someone says you can't, I had this defiant side of myself.
不管反对意见如何，当有人说你不能时，我自己就有这种挑衅的一面。
When I said, oh, I can't?
当我说，哦，我不能？
No, I think I can.
不，我想我可以。
Cedric bet everything in his life as a teenager on the hope that he would get a scholarship to a top college.
塞德里克青少年时期赌上了自己一生的一切，希望能获得顶尖大学的奖学金。
Reporter Ron Suskind started following him around when Cedric was just 16.
塞德里克 (Cedric) 年仅 16 岁时，记者罗恩·苏斯金德 (Ron Suskind) 就开始跟踪他。
He stayed with him for two and a half years, published stories about him in The Wall Street Journal which won a Pulitzer Prize.
他和他待了两年半，在《华尔街日报》上发表了关于他的故事，并获得了普利策奖。
Cedric's first serious encounter with the elite universities that he wanted to enter came after his junior year in that summer, a summer program at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, a program designed to attract minority students to MIT.
塞德里克第一次认真接触他想进入的精英大学是在大三那年夏天，当时他正在麻省理工学院参加暑期项目，该项目旨在吸引少数族裔学生进入麻省理工学院。
The program was called MITES, M-I-T-E-S, the Minority Introduction To Engineering and Science, 50-some kids who supposedly came from neighborhoods like Cedric's.
这个项目被称为 MITES，M-I-T-E-S，即少数人工程与科学概论，有 50 多个孩子，据说他们来自塞德里克这样的社区。
Making it into the program was Cedric's dream.
进入该计划是塞德里克的梦想。
It was the first foothold in this new world he was trying to enter into.
这是他试图进入的这个新世界的第一个立足点。
But when classes began, Cedric found that he could barely keep up.
但当课程开始时，塞德里克发现他几乎跟不上。
And even worse, he was just as isolated at MIT as he'd been back at Ballou.
更糟糕的是，他在麻省理工学院和在巴卢时一样被孤立。
Calculus, physics, chemistry were are filled with kids from middle-class backgrounds, good suburban schools, private schools.
微积分、物理、化学充满了来自中产阶级背景、优秀的郊区学校、私立学校的孩子。
Some of them had seen this material before back home.
他们中的一些人在回国之前就看过这种材料。
It was really a disappointment.
真是令人失望。
And it sort of made me feel inadequate during the process, when I'm taking all the notes and they're just nodding their heads like, oh, yeah.
在这个过程中，当我记下所有笔记而他们只是点头时，这让我感觉自己不够好，哦，是的。
OK.
好的。
Yeah, I've heard that before.
是的，我以前听说过。
Ira Glass And we should say that at your high school back in Washington, in the public school, you were in the most advanced classes they offered.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）我们应该说，在你在华盛顿的公立学校的高中，你上的是他们提供的最高级的课程。
Right.
正确的。
And even in the most advanced classes they offered, I had done above and beyond.
即使在他们提供的最高级的课程中，我的成绩也超出了他们的水平。
So I thought that that would be enough to prepare me.
所以我认为这足以让我做好准备。
And I guess it wasn't.
我想事实并非如此。
There's this moment in this part of the story which is just completely heartbreaking to read where you get back your first test and you get a 4 out of 26 in your physics class.
故事的这一部分有这样一个时刻，读到你第一次考试时在物理课上得到了 4 分（满分 26 分），真是令人心碎。
So bad.
太糟糕了。
Ira Glass And a 68 out of 104 in calculus.
Ira Glass 微积分得了 68 分（满分 104 分）。
And you're a student who's used to getting all A's, ends up being the star of every class.
而你是一个习惯于获得全A的学生，最终成为每门课的明星。
Well, it was a learning experience.
嗯，这是一次学习经历。
It was disappointing, first of all.
首先，这令人失望。
Physics was just ridiculous.
物理学简直太荒谬了。
I thought I was just going to go crazy.
我以为我快要疯了。
And I thought I was just going to go crazy.
我以为我快要疯了。
In physics, 4 out of 26.
物理学，26 分中的 4 分。
That is just ridiculous.
这太荒谬了。
There was nothing that anyone could say to make me feel better about that.
没有人能说什么让我对此感觉更好。
Ron, let me ask you to talk a little bit about why the MIT program was set up in this way.
罗恩，让我请你谈谈为什么麻省理工学院的项目是这样设立的。
At one point, you met with Bill Ramsey, the 68-year-old African American who heads this program to get minorities into MIT.
有一次，您遇到了 68 岁的非裔美国人比尔·拉姆齐 (Bill Ramsey)，他领导了一项让少数族裔进入麻省理工学院的项目。
And he talked to you about why so many suburban kids were in the program and so few city kids.
他向你讲述了为什么有这么多郊区的孩子参加这个项目，而城市的孩子却很少。
Ramsey was a great guy who had been an MIT grad in 1951, when there were almost no blacks at MIT.
拉姆齐是一位伟大的人，1951 年他是麻省理工学院的毕业生，当时麻省理工学院几乎没有黑人。
And he was hopeful for better.
他希望事情会变得更好。
He wanted what I think is the bigger and, in some ways, more important thing to occur in this MIT program when he took it over seven or eight years before Cedric got there.
他希望在塞德里克到达麻省理工学院的这个项目七八年之前，在他接手这个项目时发生我认为更大、在某些方面更重要的事情。
He wanted kids like Cedric, 50 kids like Cedric instead of one or two.
他想要像塞德里克这样的孩子，50 个像塞德里克这样的孩子，而不是一两个。
And what he realized early on is that it would run into all manner of dilemmas that go right to the core of some of the problems with the notion of Affirmative Action.
他很早就意识到，这将陷入各种困境，而这些困境直指平权行动概念的一些问题的核心。
MIT sponsors the program.
麻省理工学院赞助该计划。
MIT wants as many of these kids as possible to eventually end up in their freshman class to make that freshman class look like a rainbow, as they say.
正如他们所说，麻省理工学院希望尽可能多的孩子最终进入新生班级，使新生班级看起来像彩虹一样。
And as people might mention, you can make the Ivy League, or any great college, look like a rainbow nowadays without ever having to go to the ghetto.
正如人们可能提到的，你可以让常春藤盟校或任何伟大的大学如今看起来像彩虹一样，而不必去贫民窟。
You don't have to go there.
你不必去那里。
There are plenty of middle and upper-middle-class black and Latino kids to fill those programs, kids who will eventually succeed at a top university.
有很多中上阶层的黑人和拉丁裔孩子可以填补这些项目，这些孩子最终将在顶尖大学取得成功。
It's the other kids, kids like Cedric, for whom the distance is so vast to travel that for them, the failure rate is untenable for a place like MIT.
是其他孩子，比如塞德里克这样的孩子，对于他们来说，旅行的距离是如此遥远，对于他们来说，对于像麻省理工学院这样的地方来说，失败率是站不住脚的。
Just reading your account of it, it seems like part of his concern too was that kids would come in without any preparation, or without enough preparation, to go as fast as MIT would want them to go.
只是读了你的描述，他担心的一部分似乎是孩子们会在没有任何准备或没有足够准备的情况下进来，按照麻省理工学院希望他们走的速度走。
And then MIT had no infrastructure to bring them up to speed.
然后麻省理工学院没有基础设施来让他们跟上进度。
And so it was just setting them up for failure.
所以这只是让他们陷入失败。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
And they often have very big dreams, and they often come pushed forward by a whole community for whom they're the one who's going to make it.
他们常常有非常远大的梦想，而且他们常常受到整个社区的推动，而他们就是那个要实现梦想的人。
And that's a pretty heavy burden to carry to a place like MIT and then have all of that come crashing down on their head.
对于像麻省理工学院这样的地方来说，这是一个相当沉重的负担，然后所有这些都落在他们的头上。
Look, as Ramsey said, he said, look, the suicide rates up here are high enough as they are.
看，正如拉姆齐所说，他说，看，这里的自杀率已经足够高了。
So Cedric, at the end of your time with MIT, you're informed that you weren't ready for MIT just yet.
所以，塞德里克，在你在麻省理工学院学习结束时，你被告知你还没有为进入麻省理工学院做好准备。
And you headed back to DC and put in a lot more work and a lot more effort.
然后你回到华盛顿，投入了更多的工作和努力。
And after you graduated from high school, you end up at an Ivy League school, Brown University.
高中毕业后，你最终会进入常春藤盟校布朗大学。
And let me ask you to describe, first of all, who your roommate was and what he was like.
首先，让我请您描述一下您的室友是谁以及他是什么样的人。
What was his background?
他的背景是什么？
My roommate's name was Robert and he was from Marblehead, Massachusetts.
我的室友叫罗伯特，来自马萨诸塞州马布尔黑德。
And he was a white guy.
他是一个白人。
He was cool.
他很酷。
I think both his parents were doctors.
我认为他的父母都是医生。
He went to private school.
他上的是私立学校。
Cedric Jennings He went to a private school.
塞德里克·詹宁斯 他在一所私立学校上学。
What else?
还有什么？
He had a sister that went to Harvard.
他有一个姐姐，就读于哈佛大学。
But I think for the most part, we did get along.
但我认为在大多数情况下，我们确实相处得很好。
And I think that because we came from different backgrounds, that's where a little bit of the conflict came in.
我认为因为我们来自不同的背景，这就是一些冲突的根源。
I think he came from a home where I think his mom pretty much waited on him hand and foot.
我想他来自一个他妈妈几乎无微不至地伺候他的家庭。
And I came from a home where I was pretty much independent.
我来自一个非常独立的家庭。
I had to do things for myself, cook for myself, was for myself, those sorts of things, clean up behind myself.
我必须为自己做事，为自己做饭，为自己，诸如此类的事情，自己清理。
And one of the problems that we had was that he was at times, we were both messy at times, especially with me, especially when there was a lot of work.
我们遇到的问题之一是他有时，我们有时都很混乱，尤其是对我来说，尤其是当有很多工作时。
But for the most part, there were times when he would get really, really, really messy and outrageous and just be funky, so to speak.
但在大多数情况下，有时他会变得非常非常混乱和令人发指，可以这么说，只是很时髦。
This reminded me of when I've been in Chicago high schools, how you'll see the white kids, the way they'll keep their clothes is they'll just dress like whatever and they'll look kind of bummy.
这让我想起当我在芝加哥高中时，你会如何看待白人孩子，他们保留衣服的方式是他们会穿得像任何东西，而且看起来有点放荡。
Whereas the black kids, again, it's like everything always has to be neat and perfect.
而黑人孩子则再次强调，一切都必须整洁和完美。
And even your clothes have to be just so perfect all the time.
甚至你的衣服也必须始终如此完美。
It's like they're from two different countries.
就好像他们来自两个不同的国家。
This is true, but it's one thing if your clothes just look bad and then if your body just stinks.
这是事实，但如果你的衣服看起来很糟糕，或者你的身体很臭，那就是一回事了。
That's just a whole nother thing.
那完全是另一回事。
And I think that sometimes he just was funky, man.
我认为有时候他只是很时髦，伙计。
And that's just not something that I wanted to put up with.
这不是我想要忍受的事情。
And I wasn't willing to put up with that.
我不愿意忍受这一点。
There just was not much communication between us.
只是我们之间没有太多的交流。
Ira, they just had utterly distinct ways of doing everything.
艾拉，他们做事的方式完全不同。
Cedric's general heightened hygiene of having grown up in often squalid places, where Cedric was cleaning all the time.
塞德里克在经常肮脏的地方长大，所以总体上更加注重卫生，塞德里克总是在那里打扫卫生。
Cedric was always careful about how he looked and that he himself and his person was very clean.
塞德里克总是很注意自己的外表，他本人和他的人都很干净。
It was the opposite from Rob who never worried.
这与从不担心的罗布正好相反。
This was just one of 1,000 things like that that immediately gripped the two of them in the room until the point where they almost came to blows.
这只是一千个这样的事情中的一个，立即让房间里的两人紧紧抓住，直到他们差点打起来。
And Cedric, there were times that you were really isolated there.
塞德里克，有时候你在那里真的很孤立。
Yeah, at Brown?
是啊，在布朗？
Yeah.
是的。
I think especially in the social arena.
我认为尤其是在社交领域。
I grew up in church and everything.
我在教堂和其他一切中长大。
And just putting myself out there and getting involved, it went against some of what I was taught from church.
只是让自己参与其中，这违背了我从教会学到的一些东西。
Can I ask, when's the first time you actually drank?
请问，你第一次喝酒是什么时候？
I've never drank.
我从来没有喝过。
Ira Glass You still have never had a beer at college?
Ira Glass 你在大学里还没喝过啤酒吗？
No. Now, no. Ron Suskind But the thing, Ira, if you go into Cedric's church and you go into Cedric's environment, the only reason Cedric has got where he got is because he didn't taste of any of the plates at the buffet table of adolescent life in Southeast.
不，现在，不。罗恩·苏斯金德：但是问题是，艾拉，如果你走进塞德里克的教堂，走进塞德里克的环境，塞德里克能走到这一步的唯一原因就是因为他没有尝过东南部青少年生活自助餐桌上的任何菜肴。
Most of those plates are poisoned.
这些盘子大部分都有毒。
Ron, let me ask you to read from page 197 in your book.
罗恩，让我请您阅读您书中的第 197 页。
At one point, you talk about just this clash of cultures.
有一次，您谈到了这种文化冲突。
OK.
好的。
"Clearly, some East Andrews residents are spending serious time and energy having fun.
“显然，一些东安德鲁斯居民正在花费大量的时间和精力去享受乐趣。
Despite Brown's self consciousness about each student's individuality, the four preferred pastimes are the same here as they are at almost every other college-- drink beer, smoke pot, dance to deafening music until you drop, and on the rare occasion, get naked with some other warm body.
尽管布朗对每个学生的个性都有自我意识，但这里的四种首选消遣方式与几乎所有其他大学一样——喝啤酒、抽大麻、随着震耳欲聋的音乐跳舞直到倒下，在极少数的情况下，与其他温暖的身体一起赤身裸体。
Possibly the best explanation why Cedric Jennings is in Brown's class of 1999 is that he managed to steer clear of the buffet table of adolescent experimentation, believing rightly, it turns out, that in his neighborhood, most of those dishes were poisoned.
塞德里克·詹宁斯 (Cedric Jennings) 之所以能成为布朗 1999 届学生的最佳解释可能是，他成功地避开了青少年实验的自助餐桌，事实证明，他正确地相信，在他的邻居中，大多数菜肴都被下了毒。
This was an extraordinary feat, considering how peer pressure at Ballou was backed up by violence.
考虑到巴卢的同伴压力是如何通过暴力来支持的，这是一项非凡的壮举。
And the almost irresistible urge for teenagers to salve deep despair with sex, drugs, and music.
青少年几乎无法抗拒地渴望通过性、毒品和音乐来缓解深深的绝望。
Cedric knows all this, just as he knows his resistance was made possible back when by his mother's fierce code.
塞德里克知道这一切，就像他知道他的抵抗是由于他母亲的严厉准则而成为可能一样。
But eventually, something else took root.
但最终，其他的东西扎根了。
Cedric, needing to justify his monkish routine in high school night after night, developed a genuine belief that sacrifice, hard work, and extremely clean living would lead to rewards, including a scholarship to a top college.
塞德里克需要日复一日地证明自己在高中时僧侣式的生活是合理的，他产生了一种真诚的信念，即牺牲、努力工作和极其干净的生活会带来回报，包括获得顶尖大学的奖学金。
But now that he's made it, the guideposts are gone.
但现在他已经做到了，路标已经消失了。
And all around him, smart kids are getting high, getting drunk, and screwing.
在他周围，聪明的孩子们都在吸毒、喝醉、做爱。
Even the real smart ones, kids who can eat Cedric's lunch in almost any subject.
即使是那些真正聪明的孩子，在几乎任何科目上都能吃掉塞德里克的午餐。
Sitting alone on his bed one Saturday night, there's a knock on the door, and a few kids from down the hall crowd in, rosy with anticipation of a night of some drinking, an off-campus party one of them has heard about, and then, who knows, maybe some late-night pizza.
一个周六的晚上，他独自坐在床上，有人敲门，大厅里的几个孩子挤了进来，脸色红润，期待着喝一晚上的酒，他们中的一个听说过一场校外派对，然后，谁知道呢，也许是一些深夜披萨。
'Hey Cedric, come on,' one of them says.
“嘿塞德里克，来吧，”其中一人说道。
'Naw,' Cedric says, declining nicely, trying to show he appreciates their asking.
“不，”塞德里克说，礼貌地拒绝了，试图表明他很感激他们的要求。
'I just don't do that kind of stuff.' And everyone nods meaningfully, though Cedric can tell they don't really understand.
“我只是不做那种事。”每个人都意味深长地点点头，尽管塞德里克看得出来他们并不真正明白。
In a moment, they're gone.
一会儿，他们就走了。
Just as well, he thinks, half-meaning it.
也罢，他半真半假地想。
I can't change now."
我现在无法改变。”
Cedric, in your view, do you feel like the biggest difference between yourself and the people who you were meeting at Brown, do you think it was racial, or do you think it had more to do with class?
塞德里克，在你看来，你觉得你自己和你在布朗大学遇到的人之间最大的区别是，你认为这是种族问题，还是你认为这更多地与阶级有关？
I think it had more to do with class.
我认为这与阶级关系更大。
I mean, obviously race.
我的意思是，显然是种族。
I was among a few minorities.
我是少数族裔之一。
But obviously class.
但显然是阶级。
Explain that more.
解释一下更多。
Cedric Jennings Even within a minority community, most of my peers in the minority community had gone to private schools.
塞德里克·詹宁斯 即使在少数族裔社区内，我在少数族裔社区中的大多数同龄人都上过私立学校。
They were pretty much from middle-class, upper-class homes.
他们几乎来自中产阶级、上层阶级家庭。
Mothers and fathers, who were both college educated in a lot of cases, were both living at home with them.
在很多情况下，父母都受过大学教育，他们都和他们住在一起。
It was just totally the opposite of where I had come from.
这与我来自的地方完全相反。
And in a lot of ways, I just felt isolated all over again, like being at MIT.
在很多方面，我只是再次感到孤立，就像在麻省理工学院一样。
Did you find in any way it was easier to be close to black kids from middle-class homes than it was to be close to white kids from middle-class homes?
您是否发现与中产阶级家庭的黑人孩子相处比与中产阶级家庭的白人孩子相处更容易？
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass There actually was a difference?
Ira Glass 确实有区别吗？
Yeah.
是的。
We had more in common.
我们有更多共同点。
We had more in common.
我们有更多共同点。
We were working toward the same thing, pretty much.
我们几乎致力于同一件事。
It's interesting thinking about this in terms of just the history of integration.
仅从整合的历史来思考这个问题就很有趣。
Putting together this show, I was talking to one of my producers, and we were talking about how towards the end of Dr. King's life, one of the things that he looked at and started to think about was the question of OK, now under the law, blacks can go anywhere.
在整理这个节目时，我正在与我的一位制片人交谈，我们正在谈论如何在金博士生命的尽头，他看到并开始思考的一件事是“好吧，现在根据法律，黑人可以去任何地方”的问题。
But moving towards economic integration, moving people out of poor neighborhoods and up into the middle class seems so much more difficult.
但迈向经济一体化、让人们摆脱贫困社区并进入中产阶级似乎要困难得多。
And reading the account of you at Brown trying to make that class jump just reiterates how hard it is.
读到你在布朗大学试图跳级的经历，就再次证明了这是多么困难。
It's extremely hard.
这是非常困难的。
It's hard to see with my mother and everything.
很难见到我的母亲和一切。
At first, I must admit I was a little ashamed of her coming to Brown because I knew that she was not like any of the other parents in terms of what we had.
起初，我必须承认，我对她来到布朗大学感到有点羞愧，因为我知道就我们所拥有的而言，她与其他父母不同。
I mean, when I look back on it, I actually was ashamed because I knew that the other parents, they had a lot of advantages and they had things in life.
我的意思是，当我回想起来时，我实际上感到羞愧，因为我知道其他父母，他们有很多优点，他们在生活中拥有很多东西。
And a lot of them had it easy.
他们中的很多人都过得很轻松。
They got it easy.
他们很容易做到。
And my mother, we come from welfare.
而我的母亲，我们来自福利院。
She's on welfare.
她靠福利。
She had dropped out of high school and gotten pregnant at an early age.
她高中辍学，年纪轻轻就怀孕了。
And she got a GED.
她获得了 GED。
She wasn't college educated.
她没有受过大学教育。
So sometimes I was ashamed of the fact that my mother wasn't on the same level as the other parents.
所以有时我会因为我的母亲与其他父母不在同一水平而感到羞耻。
No. Because I've been ashamed to admit that to her.
不。因为我羞于向她承认这一点。
For a long time, I had been in denial about that.
很长一段时间，我一直否认这一点。
But I'm not ashamed of her anymore.
但我不再为她感到羞耻了。
I've grown out of that.
我已经不再那样了。
I'm proud of her, as a matter of fact.
事实上，我为她感到骄傲。
I'm proud of her.
我为她感到骄傲。
Well, yeah.
嗯，是的。
I mean, look how far, look how much somebody had to push to make that happen.
我的意思是，看看需要付出多大的努力才能实现这一目标。
When you look at your situation now, you're finishing your junior year right now--
当你看看你现在的情况时，你现在已经完成大三了——
Oh, it's finished.
哦，完结了。
Ira Glass It's finished.
艾拉·格拉斯 完成了。
OK.
好的。
Sorry.
抱歉。
Do you still feel like you're between worlds?
你还觉得自己身处两个世界之间吗？
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
All the time.
一直以来。
All the time.
一直以来。
In one setting, the community where I come from, it's about not become white.
在一种环境中，我来自的社区，它的目标是不要成为白人。
And then at Brown, it's like not becoming-- yeah, it's the same thing, sort of.
然后在布朗，这就像没有成为——是的，这是同一件事，有点。
Not becoming white, remaining black in both worlds.
没有变成白色，在两个世界中都保持黑色。
Except it's sort of--
除非它有点——
But at Brown, it's like being black but in their world.
但在布朗，这就像在他们的世界里成为黑人一样。
Do you feel like you're in this kind of no man's land?
你是否感觉自己身处这样的无人区？
Sometimes.
有时。
Sometimes.
有时。
Ira Glass Like when?
艾拉·格拉斯 喜欢什么时候？
This is difficult.
这很难。
It's hard.
这很难。
I've never really given it a lot of thought.
我从来没有真正考虑过它。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I get a lot of grief when I come home, especially from people in my church, people in my community, about going off to this white man's land.
当我回到家时，我感到非常悲伤，尤其是来自我教会里的人们、我社区里的人们，关于离开这个白人的土地。
And it's just, you shouldn't do it, they're going to eat you alive.
只是，你不应该这样做，他们会把你活活吃掉。
I mean, I still get that sometimes.
我的意思是，有时我仍然明白这一点。
And it does isolate me at times.
有时它确实孤立了我。
And yeah, sometimes I do, I feel alone.
是的，有时我确实感到孤独。
I guess that's what you asked me.
我想这就是你问我的。
Do I feel alone, isolated in terms of my decision of going to Brown, venturing out?
当我决定去布朗大学冒险时，我是否感到孤独、孤立？
Yeah, I do.
是的，我愿意。
I do feel alone.
我确实感到孤独。
Do you feel less alone, though it sounds like you're feeling more alone when you go back home to Southeast Washington?
当您回到华盛顿东南部的家中时，您是否感觉不那么孤独了，尽管听起来您感觉更孤独？
Do you feel less alone now when you're up at Brown?
当你在布朗大学时，你现在感觉不那么孤独了吗？
And in that world?
而在那个世界呢？
I do.
我愿意。
Because I've grown more comfortable with Brown.
因为我和布朗在一起越来越舒服了。
In terms of feeling at ease in the new world that you have moved into, if we would consider somebody like your roommate Rob, who kind of grew up in that world, as being completely at ease, he's 100% at ease, where would you say your percentage is now?
就在你进入的新世界中感到自在而言，如果我们将像你的室友罗布这样在那个世界长大的人视为完全自在，他100%自在，你觉得你现在的比例是多少？
80%.
80%。
Ira Glass What's the 20% that still isn't there?
Ira Glass：那 20% 还没有到来，那是多少？
I still have a lot of growing up to do.
我还有很多成长的事情要做。
I've come from Ballou High School, which is considered one of the worst high schools in DC.
我来自巴卢高中，该高中被认为是华盛顿特区最差的高中之一。
I've gone off to one of the best universities in the country.
我去了这个国家最好的大学之一。
And I'm still not happy.
而我还是不高兴。
When you say you're not happy, you mean you're not happy in a day-to-day way, or you're not happy with how far you've come?
当你说你不快乐时，你的意思是你对日常生活不快乐，或者你对自己已经取得的进步不满意？
A combination of both.
两者的结合。
Ira Glass I mean, I guess I could imagine the day-to-day part of it because it just seem like it's so much work--
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：我的意思是，我想我可以想象其中的日常部分，因为看起来工作量太大了——
It is.
是的。
Ira Glass --to keep things going.
艾拉·格拉斯——让事情继续下去。
This is really difficult for me to talk about.
这对我来说确实很难说。
So you've got to bear with me here.
所以你必须容忍我。
Plus I haven't given this much thought.
另外我还没有考虑这么多。
Success is a trip.
成功是一次旅行。
Because we push people, especially blacks, to be successful, minorities to be successful.
因为我们推动人们，尤其是黑人，取得成功，推动少数族裔取得成功。
And then once they get there, and once we get there, for some reason, we pull each other back.
然后，一旦他们到达那里，一旦我们到达那里，出于某种原因，我们就会互相拉扯。
You're thinking specifically about things that are happening now that you're back home for the summer?
您正在特别思考现在暑假回家后发生的事情吗？
Yeah.
是的。
My biggest problems are at home.
我最大的问题是在家里。
My biggest worries are at home.
我最大的担忧是在家里。
All these people who just bombard me with what they-- for some people, me going to Brown is like I've given up, or turned my back to the fact that I'm black, which is totally not the case.
所有这些人都用他们的东西轰炸我——对于某些人来说，我去布朗大学就好像我已经放弃了，或者背弃了我是黑人的事实，但事实并非如此。
And this is people who you respect saying this to you.
这是你尊敬的人对你说的。
People in your church.
你们教会里的人。
People that I respected.
我尊敬的人。
People that I thought were really behind me.
我认为真正在我身后的人。
That's the toughest part.
这是最困难的部分。
And that's what's hard.
这就是困难所在。
That's what I'm trying to deal with.
这就是我正在努力解决的问题。
Success is almost as worse as failure.
成功几乎和失败一样糟糕。
Ron Suskind's great, great book about Cedric Jennings is called A Hope in the Unseen.
罗恩·苏斯金德（Ron Suskind）关于塞德里克·詹宁斯（Cedric Jennings）的伟大著作名为《看不见的希望》（A Hope in the Unseen）。
You know, before our interview ended, I told Cedric about the story in the first half of today's show, about a black who said that he would date but never marry a white woman.
你知道，在我们的采访结束之前，我给塞德里克讲了今天节目前半部分的故事，一个黑人说他会和白人女性约会，但永远不会结婚。
That's interesting because I think the same way.
这很有趣，因为我也这么想。
Somebody asked me, first they asked me, would you marry a white woman?
有人问我，首先他们问我，你会娶一个白人女人吗？
And I said no. And they said, well, would you date a white woman?
我说不。他们说，好吧，你会和白人女性约会吗？
And I said, yeah, I would date a white woman.
我说，是的，我会和一个白人女性约会。
The way the other guy on the show explains it, there's a part of him which doesn't believe that a white woman could completely understand him.
正如节目中另一个人解释的那样，他有一部分不相信白人女性能够完全理解他。
True, I guess.
我想是的。
But I don't know.
但我不知道。
When two people bond in love, I think that they definitely understand things about each other, like more than what he's giving them credit for.
当两个人相爱时，我认为他们肯定了解彼此的事情，比他给予他们的信任更多。
Well, our program was produced today by Nancy Updike and myself, with Alix Spiegel and Julie Snyder.
嗯，我们今天的节目是由南希·厄普代克和我本人以及阿利克斯·斯皮格尔和朱莉·斯奈德制作的。
Senior editor Paul Tough.
高级编辑保罗·托夫。
Contributing editors Jack Hitt, Margy Rochlin, and Consigliere Sarah Vowell.
特约编辑 Jack Hitt、Margy Rochlin 和 Consigliere Sarah Vowell。
Production help from Laura Doggett and birthday girl Soyini Davenport.
劳拉·道吉特 (Laura Doggett) 和生日女孩索伊妮·达文波特 (Soyini Davenport) 为制作提供帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] If you want to buy a cassette of this program, call us at WBEZ here in Chicago, the phone number 312-832-3380.
[鸣谢] 如果您想购买该节目的磁带，请致电芝加哥的 WBEZ，电话号码 312-832-3380。
312-832-3380.
312-832-3380。
Our email address, [email protected] .
我们的电子邮件地址，[电子邮件受保护]。
Or you know, you can listen to nearly any of our action-packed programs for free on the internet at our website www.thislife.org.
或者您知道，您可以在我们的网站 www.thislife.org 上免费收听我们几乎所有内容丰富的节目。
That's "this life," one word, no space.
这就是“今生”，只有一个词，没有空格。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight by Torey Malatia who makes us love him by strutting around all day in his--
[资金来源] WBEZ 的管理监督由 Torey Malatia 负责，他整天穿着他的——
--faded, almost threadbare corduroys that fit him like a glove.
——褪色、几乎破旧的灯芯绒，像手套一样适合他。
Yes, indeed.
是的，确实如此。
I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life .
我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。