10: Double Lives - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #10 | February 14, 1997 10: Double Lives Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 10 集 | 1997 年 2 月 14 日 10：《双重生命》 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人类转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass There's what we wish for and there's what we get.
序言 Ira Glass 我们想要什么，我们就会得到什么。
For Susan Bergman, the story went like this.
对于苏珊·伯格曼来说，故事是这样的。
Her father led a double life.
她的父亲过着双重生活。
On the one hand, he proudly described himself as a family man, a church organist, in a denomination that was so strict the women covered their heads, wore no make-up, no dancing, no smoking, no drinking, no going to theaters, no swimming with members of the opposite sex, even.
一方面，他自豪地将自己描述为一个有家室的男人，一名教堂管风琴手，在一个严格到女性遮住头的教派中，不化妆，不跳舞，不吸烟，不喝酒，不去剧院，甚至不与异性成员游泳。
Her father stage-managed things so they appeared to be the perfect blond-haired, blue-eyed, American family.
她的父亲精心策划了一切，让他们看起来是一个完美的金发蓝眼睛的美国家庭。
But secretly, he was having sex with men.
但私下里，他正在与男人发生性关系。
By all accounts, it was lots of men.
从各方面来看，里面有很多男人。
Sometimes he would even fly off to New York, go to gay clubs there.
有时他甚至会飞往纽约，去那里的同性恋俱乐部。
In 1983, he was one of the first victims of AIDS.
1983年，他成为第一批艾滋病受害者之一。
They had barely named the disease.
他们几乎没有给这种疾病命名。
The symptoms weren't familiar.
这些症状并不熟悉。
And he died before his children got the chance to ask him about who he really was and talk to him about how they should reconcile who he had pretended to be all those years, with who he was.
在他的孩子们有机会询问他的真实身份并与他谈论他们应该如何调和他多年来假装的身份和他的真实身份之前，他就去世了。
What was real of their childhood?
他们的童年真实的是什么？
Susan Bergman wrote a book about her family's experience.
苏珊·伯格曼写了一本关于她家人经历的书。
And on her book tour, a very particular thing started to happen.
在她的售书活动中，一件非常特别的事情开始发生。
Gay men, who were still married or who had been married, started to contact her.
已婚或已婚的男同性恋者开始与她联系。
They wanted to explain her father's double life to her.
他们想向她解释她父亲的双重生活。
They wanted to explain their own double lives to her.
他们想向她解释自己的双重生活。
And they wanted to offer her the conversation that she never got to have with her father.
他们想为她提供她从未与父亲进行过的对话。
Well, from WBEZ in Chicago, it's This American Life.
嗯，是来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back once again for another hour documenting life in these United States.
再次回来用一个小时记录这些美国的生活。
Today's program in four acts.
今天的节目共四幕。
Act One, gay men.
第一幕，男同性恋者。
I talk to Susan Bergman about her father.
我和苏珊·伯格曼谈论了她的父亲。
Act Two, a gay man talks to me in a parked car in an undisclosed location about why he thinks that his children don't need to know that he's gay and why he stays married.
第二幕，一名同性恋者在一辆停在秘密地点的车里与我交谈，解释为什么他认为他的孩子不需要知道他是同性恋，以及为什么他保持婚姻。
Act Three, we take all the heavy, very heavy themes about lying and families from the first two acts and rework them as comedy, if you can believe that.
第三幕，我们把前两幕中关于谎言和家庭的所有沉重、非常沉重的主题重新改编成喜剧，如果你相信这一点的话。
And finally, Act Four, the sins of the fathers pass on to the sons.
最后，第四幕，父亲的罪孽传给了儿子。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, The Book Tour.
第一幕，售书之旅。
Susan Bergman came to our studios, loaded down with evidence.
苏珊·伯格曼带着证据来到我们的工作室。
OK, now you've brought in some tapes of yourself being interviewed on talk radio shows that I've got here.
好的，现在你已经带来了我这里的一些你自己在脱口秀节目中接受采访的录音带。
So this first one, do we need to explain it at all before we play it?
那么第一个，我们在玩之前需要解释一下吗？
I think this was a caller that was, in some ways, typical of the response that I got on talk radio.
我认为这个来电者在某种程度上是我在谈话广播中得到的典型回应。
Here we go.
开始了。
Man I have a particularly close connection to this sort of thing.
伙计，我与这类事情有着特别密切的联系。
I'm a gay father, divorced now.
我是一名同性恋父亲，现已离婚。
So I'm very close to this.
所以我非常接近这一点。
In particular, I can understand your father's secretiveness and his pain.
我特别能理解你父亲的隐秘和痛苦。
There's always the resentment that you had to go through the pain, that you had to hide, that you had to lie.
总是有一种怨恨，因为你必须经历痛苦，你必须隐藏，你必须撒谎。
And you live with that resentment.
你就带着这种怨恨生活。
It really never quite goes away, even in my case, after you've come completely out and divorced and the whole bit.
即使在我的情况下，在你完全出柜并离婚之后，它真的永远不会完全消失。
And the resentment lives on, that I had to do live that lie, that I had to lie to my wife, that I had to lie to my children, that I had to life to my family.
怨恨继续存在，我必须生活在谎言中，我必须对我的妻子撒谎，我必须对我的孩子撒谎，我必须为我的家人生活。
And never be happy.
并且永远不快乐。
Never, never, never know happiness.
永远，永远，永远不知道幸福。
Can I just ask you, what was your reaction to-- when he was saying this, had it occurred to you before that your father would actually be resentful of the family for the secret that he was keeping from you?
我可以问你，当他说这句话的时候，你有什么反应，你是否曾想过，你的父亲实际上会因为他向你隐瞒这个秘密而对这个家庭感到不满？
He was angry at us a lot.
他对我们很生气。
But it seemed like it was more-- I mean I interpreted that as we were bothering Dad, or Mom was asking too many questions.
但似乎更多的是——我的意思是我认为这是因为我们打扰了爸爸，或者妈妈问了太多问题。
Yeah.
是的。
It's not one that had occurred to me.
我没有想到过这种事。
And I would have to contest that assumption that one has to lie or one is put in a situation where lying is the only appropriate gesture or response.
我不得不质疑这样一种假设，即一个人必须撒谎，或者一个人被置于一种撒谎是唯一适当的姿态或反应的境地。
Let's go back to this tape.
让我们回到这盘磁带。
Man And I hope that-- I don't know.
伙计，我希望——我不知道。
Is there anything that I can help you.
有什么可以帮到你的吗？
Any questions that I could answer.
有什么问题我都可以回答。
Because I'm still alive and I've been through it.
因为我还活着，而且我已经经历过了。
That's great.
那太棒了。
Boy, I hope I can do this without just kind of gushing all over you, because it's so great of you to call in and offer that.
男孩，我希望我能做到这一点，而不只是对你滔滔不绝，因为你打电话来提供这个真是太棒了。
It's beautiful.
很美丽。
I didn't get that chance with my father.
我没有机会和父亲在一起。
I guess I would ask you--
我想我会问你——
I'm just stopping the tape here.
我只是把磁带停在这里。
I'm just going to stop the tape here, because as you're listening, you're making the gagging signal at your own reaction.
我要在这里停止录音，因为当你在听的时候，你会根据自己的反应发出作呕的信号。
Oh, I think that's so great.
哦，我觉得那太棒了。
Oh, I think that's so wonderful.
哦，我觉得那真是太好了。
I was not in touch with the full range of the reaction until after I hung up the telephone and stopped the radio interview.
直到我挂断电话并停止电台采访后，我才了解到各方的全部反应。
And clearly, that man was hurting in a lot of ways.
显然，那个男人在很多方面都受到了伤害。
And the last thing I needed to do was have a fight with him on the air about being a liar, or whatever.
我最不需要做的就是在直播中与他争论他是个骗子，或者其他什么。
Whatever anger I would have had towards my father didn't seem to me to apply to him.
无论我对父亲有什么愤怒，在我看来都不适用于他。
He was just some innocent bystander.
他只是一个无辜的旁观者。
So I just tried to be nice.
所以我只是试着表现得友善一点。
And it was kind-- oh yeah.
这很友善——哦，是的。
There's the thing that you wish for and there's the thing that you get.
有你想要的东西，也有你得到的东西。
And if what you really need is a long talk with your father, the kind of talk where you get mad and argue, and maybe he gets mad, and maybe people admit mistakes, and maybe things get resolved or maybe they don't get resolved, and you learn that they won't get resolved.
如果你真正需要的是和你的父亲进行一次长谈，那种你会生气和争论的谈话，也许他会生气，也许人们会承认错误，也许事情会得到解决，也可能没有得到解决，然后你就会知道它们不会得到解决。
But if that conversation is what you need, then no stranger on a radio call-in show, however well meaning, is going to give that to you.
但如果这种对话正是你所需要的，那么电台来电节目中的陌生人，无论其意图多么善意，都不会为你提供这种对话。
It's a mockery of what you need.
这是对你所需要的东西的嘲笑。
But there you are.
但你就在那里。
There you are.
你就在那里。
You're talking to this man, this stranger.
你正在和这个人、这个陌生人说话。
And you find yourself asking a version of the question that you would most like to ask your own father.
你发现自己在问一个你最想问自己父亲的问题。
And you get an answer that is totally useless, because really it has nothing to do with you.
你得到的答案完全没有用，因为它实际上与你无关。
You said, you didn't want to share your quote, "real life," maybe.
你说过，你不想分享你的名言，“现实生活”，也许吧。
But why do you feel that you were forced to lie about that?
但为什么你觉得你被迫撒谎呢？
How could your family have shared your life?
你的家人如何分享你的生活？
You see the problem is that once you get trapped into doing the thing you think you're supposed to do at a young age-- I married at 23 because I thought it was-- I knew I was gay then already.
你看，问题是，一旦你陷入做你认为年轻时应该做的事情——我在 23 岁时结婚，因为我认为这是——我就知道我那时已经是同性恋了。
Hm.
嗯。
Man So did my wife, for that matter.
就此而言，我的妻子也是如此。
She put it aside.
她把它放在一边。
Gay men sent Susan Bergman photos of themselves.
男同性恋者向苏珊·伯格曼发送了自己的照片。
One happy couple stands there in one of the photos in matching sweaters, raising glasses, smiling.
在其中一张照片中，一对幸福的夫妇穿着相配的毛衣站在那里，举起眼镜，微笑着。
The letter said that if her father had lived and divorced her mother, this is the kind of happiness he could have had.
信中说，如果她的父亲活着并与她的母亲离婚，这就是他本可以拥有的幸福。
The letters that Susan Bergman got from the children and spouses of gay fathers, she said, seemed to be written in a completely different language than the letters she got from the gay fathers.
苏珊·伯格曼从同性恋父亲的孩子和配偶那里收到的信，她说，似乎是用与她从同性恋父亲那里收到的信件完全不同的语言写的。
It was like two different cultures, two different perspectives.
这就像两种不同的文化，两种不同的观点。
There are lots of books about men coming out, gay men coming out, gay women coming out.
有很多关于男人出柜、男同性恋出柜、女同性恋出柜的书。
But nobody seemed to be able to remember a book that had been told from the point of view of the children and the wives that these gay men had left behind.
但似乎没有人能记得有一本从这些同性恋者留下的孩子和妻子的角度讲述的书。
And families who are in that situation felt this shock of we are not alone.
处于这种情况的家庭感到震惊，因为我们并不孤单。
And they contacted her.
他们联系了她。
Yeah.
是的。
The most poignant letter that I got, this woman says she read the book.
这是我收到的最令人心酸的信，这位女士说她读过这本书。
"Our lives are so similar, Susan, that it was eerie for me to read." She talks about their background.
“我们的生活如此相似，苏珊，读起来让我感到很奇怪。”她谈到了他们的背景。
They were all so fundamentalist.
他们都是原教旨主义者。
Our family wasn't quite fundamentalist.
我们的家庭并不完全是原教旨主义者。
But this woman says, "Bible believing churches that started in their living room.
但这位女士说：“相信圣经的教会是从他们的客厅开始的。
We had six well-behaved, talented, athletic children in our prosperous and highly visible family."
我们的家庭富裕而引人注目，有六个乖巧、才华横溢、运动能力强的孩子。”
"When my dad was diagnosed in 1988," she writes, "my mom kicked him out of the house and would have nothing else to do with him.
“1988 年，当我父亲被确诊时，”她写道，“我妈妈把他赶出了家门，不再与他有任何关系。
Three of us moved him out of town, encouraged him to change his name, and lied about his mysterious disease and our parent's sudden separation.
我们三个人把他搬出了城，鼓励他改名，并对他神秘的疾病和我们父母的突然分居撒了谎。
Now, they are both gone.
现在，他们都走了。
And we are left to deal with the fraud that was our life."
而我们只能面对我们生活中的欺诈行为。”
They had just buried their mother-- when she wrote me this letter-- who had died of AIDS because the father didn't protect the mother at all.
他们刚刚埋葬了他们的母亲——当她给我写这封信时——她死于艾滋病，因为父亲根本没有保护母亲。
She says, "I'm writing to you now, not to pour out my heart, but to ask if my sisters and I can come take you out for lunch soon there in Chicago?
她说：“我现在写信给你，并不是要倾诉我的心声，而是想问一下我和我的姐妹们能否很快带你去芝加哥吃午饭？
There are not many like us who have suffered such circumstances.
像我们这样经历过这种情况的人并不多。
And I know in my heart that I should be able to hold my head high and talk about my mother's needless death without shame.
而且我心里知道，我应该能够昂首挺胸，毫无羞耻地谈论母亲的无谓之死。
But as of now, I can't."
但到目前为止，我还不能。”
That's the end of that letter.
这就是那封信的结尾。
And I talked to this family at length, on several different occasions.
我在几个不同的场合与这个家庭进行了详细的交谈。
They did come to Chicago.
他们确实来到了芝加哥。
They did?
他们做到了？
Susan Bergman Yeah.
苏珊·伯格曼 是的。
Two of the daughters came.
两个女儿也来了。
Some of the sons were not willing to even acknowledge that the parents had died of AIDS yet, one of them being a physician.
有些儿子甚至不愿意承认父母死于艾滋病，其中一位是医生。
Yeah.
是的。
But the interesting story that they have, as her father was dying, they spent hours and hours interviewing their father on tape about his sexual contacts.
但他们有一个有趣的故事，当她的父亲即将去世时，他们花了很多时间在录音中采访他们的父亲，了解他的性接触。
They got the names of all of the married men that he had been with in this three-city area and the addresses and the phone numbers, which he had.
他们得到了他在这三个城市地区交往过的所有已婚男人的姓名以及他所拥有的地址和电话号码。
And they began calling those men's wives on the telephone, because they wanted to save lives, because they knew their mother was dying.
他们开始给那些男人的妻子打电话，因为他们想拯救生命，因为他们知道他们的母亲快要死了。
And so they would call up these women and say, you don't know me but--
所以他们会打电话给这些女人说，你们不认识我，但是——
Yup.
是的。
Ira Glass --my father has had sex with your husband.
艾拉·格拉斯——我父亲和你丈夫发生过性关系。
Yes.
是的。
I mean can you imagine that?
我的意思是你能想象吗？
I mean, of course they debated this among themselves.
我的意思是，他们当然对此进行了争论。
They thought this is none of our business.
他们认为这不关我们的事。
But when their mother got AIDS, they knew that this list of 100 married men were not taking any precautions with their own wives.
但当他们的母亲得了艾滋病后，他们才知道，这份 100 名已婚男人的名单并没有对自己的妻子采取任何预防措施。
And they started calling.
他们开始打电话。
And I said, "Well, what was the reaction?" I asked them to go on.
我说：“那么，大家的反应是什么？”我请他们继续。
And they said a lot of women hung up the phone them.
他们说很多女人都挂断了他们的电话。
And some would say, "Oh, thank you very much for calling."
有些人会说：“哦，非常感谢您打来电话。”
And as you say that, the thing that occurs to me is it's such a complicated act, because partly it's an act of compassion for somebody.
正如你所说，我想到的是这是一个如此复杂的行为，因为部分原因是对某人的同情行为。
And then partly it's such an act of vengeance against somebody else, and calling--
然后部分是对别人的报复行为，并呼吁——
I mean if you lose your mother to AIDS, I can see why.
我的意思是，如果你的母亲因艾滋病而去世，我能理解原因。
I never had to do that.
我从来没有必要这样做。
Yeah.
是的。
Susan Bergman But I'll tell you, in the town I live in, outside Chicago, there is a family, at least one, where the same thing is going on.
苏珊·伯格曼：但是我告诉你，在我居住的芝加哥郊外的小镇上，有一个家庭，至少一个家庭，正在发生同样的事情。
The father is very promiscuous, a prominent man in town, has four young children.
父亲非常淫乱，是镇上的显赫人物，有四个年幼的孩子。
His wife has no idea he's a practicing homosexual.
他的妻子不知道他是同性恋者。
They have unprotected sex.
他们进行无保护的性行为。
And people in the community come to me and say, "What should we do?
社区里的人来找我说：“我们应该做什么？
We've asked him to tell her.
我们请他告诉她。
We're thinking about telling her.
我们正在考虑要不要告诉她。
We want to protect her so that her kids have one parent." And when I talk to--
我们想保护她，让她的孩子有一个父母。”当我与——
And what do you tell them?
你告诉他们什么？
Susan Bergman I say that's their decision.
苏珊·伯格曼 我说那是他们的决定。
They're going to have to really think about that, because I don't know the people.
他们必须认真考虑这一点，因为我不认识这些人。
I can't go into their lives just because I wrote some book on some related subject.
我不能仅仅因为我写了一些相关主题的书就进入他们的生活。
If they're involved in the family system in some way, they have to make that decision.
如果他们以某种方式参与家庭系统，他们就必须做出决定。
I have no idea.
我不知道。
But when I talk to gay men about this book, who have read it and want to have a conversation, almost everyone has said to me, "Oh yeah, my main partners are married men." I said, "Well, you have to think about your own responsibility to the family then, I imagine."
但当我和读过这本书并想要交谈的男同性恋者谈论这本书时，几乎每个人都对我说，“哦，是的，我的主要伴侣是已婚男人。”我说：“好吧，我想你必须考虑一下你自己对家庭的责任。”
All these different fathers who contacted you, did any of them say, I'm sorry, I did something that hurt people and I'm sorry?
所有这些与你联系的不同的父亲，他们中是否有人说过，对不起，我做了伤害别人的事，我很抱歉？
Well, no. Because there's a lot of talk trying to defend the position that's just newly being articulated in their lives.
嗯，不。因为有很多言论试图捍卫他们生活中刚刚阐明的立场。
And I understand that they're building their ramparts or whatever.
我知道他们正在建造壁垒或其他什么。
That position being, I was right to at least clear up this lie.
那个立场是，我至少澄清了这个谎言是正确的。
Finally, I did the one right thing.
最后，我做了一件正确的事。
I left my family and became a true homosexual.
我离开了家人，成为了一名真正的同性恋者。
That's the right thing, that's being defended in almost all of the letters.
这是正确的事情，几乎所有的信件都在捍卫这一点。
This is a very interesting letter signed, anonymously yours.
这是一封非常有趣的信，署名是您的匿名信。
He says, "At the risk of intrusion, which is not my intention, I'm compelled to write you and express some gentle viewpoints based on experiences similar to those in your book, but admittedly little real knowledge of your life." I appreciated that acknowledgement very much.
他说：“冒着被打扰的风险，这不是我的本意，我不得不写信给你，并根据与你书中类似的经历表达一些温和的观点，但不可否认的是，我对你的生活知之甚少。”我非常感谢这种认可。
"Based on your writing, however, I strongly feel that your father's life with you and your family was not the sham it may superficially appear.
“然而，根据你的写作，我强烈地感觉到你父亲与你和你的家人在一起的生活并不像表面上看起来的那样。
I see the story from a different perspective, as that of a tragic, often unconscious struggle by your father to love his family and not end up as one of nature's mistakes, which of course he wasn't.
我从不同的角度看待这个故事，这是一个悲剧性的、常常是无意识的斗争，你的父亲为了爱他的家人而进行了无意识的斗争，而不是最终成为自然的错误之一，当然他不是。
Were there no kisses of bruised knees, soothing of tears and hurt feelings, umpteen occasions of personal denial, dreams of success and happiness for you and the others?
难道没有亲吻受伤的膝盖，抚慰眼泪和受伤的感情，无数次的个人否认，以及你和其他人的成功和幸福的梦想吗？
Would it be unreasonable to consider yourself doubly-loved, by a fractured psyche fighting desperately against the nature he was given?
如果你认为自己受到双重爱，因为一个破碎的心灵拼命与他被赋予的本性作斗争，这是不合理的吗？
In retrospect, are not his intents as important as his failures?"
现在回想起来，他的意图难道不和他的失败一样重要吗？”
It's a beautiful letter in some ways.
从某些方面来说，这是一封美丽的信。
And in other ways, there are these irritants in these approaches.
在其他方面，这些方法也存在一些刺激因素。
I shouldn't be so critical I suppose, but then to say to me, were there no kisses of bruised knees?
我想我不应该如此挑剔，但是对我说，难道没有亲吻受伤的膝盖吗？
Yes, of course.
是的当然。
Yeah, I had a great Daddy in many regards.
是的，我有一个在很多方面都很棒的爸爸。
Yes, he was a split person.
是的，他是一个分裂的人。
And I don't think that he enjoyed being split, and neither does this gentleman.
我认为他不喜欢被分开，这位先生也不喜欢。
But that doesn't make him a better father.
但这并不能让他成为一个更好的父亲。
And that's almost the thing that this letter is driving towards, like couldn't you be doubly loved, being loved by a homosexual father?
这几乎就是这封信所要表达的目标，就像你不能被一个同性恋父亲加倍地爱一样吗？
No.
不。
I think I was well-loved by my father.
我想我父亲很爱我。
I think my father was a split person, and that that destroyed him and it worked towards the destruction of his family.
我认为我的父亲是一个分裂的人，这摧毁了他，也导致了他家庭的毁灭。
By coming to understand that your family was structured around a lie, that who you were told you were and that the family was, has nothing to do with what you really are or were, that's very complicated.
通过了解你的家庭是围绕谎言构建的，人们告诉你你是谁以及家庭是谁，与你真正的身份或过去无关，这是非常复杂的。
Susan Bergman.
苏珊·伯格曼。
Her book is called Anonymity.
她的书叫《匿名》。
Coming up, a gay father explains why he chooses not to tell his children of his double life.
接下来，一位同性恋父亲解释了为什么他选择不告诉孩子们他的双重生活。
Act Two, Dad in the Closet.
第二幕，衣柜里的爸爸。
This next story isn't intended to answer whatever questions Susan Bergman might have about her father.
下一个故事并不是要回答苏珊·伯格曼可能对她父亲提出的任何问题。
It's intended to answer our questions about these gay men who stay in their marriages, leading double lives.
它旨在回答我们关于这些维持婚姻、过着双重生活的男同性恋者的问题。
The man we found to interview for this has been married for 26 years, heads a support group, called Review, for men in similar circumstances.
我们为此采访的一位男士已结婚 26 年，他领导着一个名为“Review”的支持小组，专门为处于类似情况的男性服务。
He was willing to be interviewed, but he didn't want me coming to his home and he didn't want to come to our studios either.
他愿意接受采访，但他不想让我去他家，也不想来我们工作室。
On the phone, I understood this to mean that he didn't feel comfortable appearing in public like this.
在电话里，我明白这意味着他对这样出现在公共场合感到不舒服。
Later, he told me that I had misunderstood, that he just didn't want to drive that far.
后来他告诉我，我误会了，他只是不想开那么远。
In any case, we met in a parking lot on Damen Avenue and drove to a quiet street, where I conducted the interview, in his car.
无论如何，我们在达门大道的一个停车场见面，然后开着他的车前往一条安静的街道，我在那里进行了采访。
My name is Jerry Walters.
我叫杰里·沃尔特斯。
Ira Glass Now let me just ask you, is it OK for us to use your name on the radio?
Ira Glass 现在我想问你，我们可以在广播中使用你的名字吗？
Jerry Walters isn't my real name.
杰里·沃尔特斯不是我的真名。
It's a name that when I used to work on a hotline, they said pick out a name that you're comfortable with and use that.
当我以前在热线工作时，他们说选择一个你觉得舒服的名字并使用它。
And so that's what I've been using.
这就是我一直在使用的。
Plus, it separates business from my club activities.
另外，它将业务与我的俱乐部活动分开。
So Jerry Walters is fine.
所以杰里·沃尔特斯很好。
This man is in his fifties, was a teenager during the Eisenhower years.
这个人五十多岁，在艾森豪威尔时代还是个少年。
He looked like any suburban dad.
他看起来就像任何一个郊区的父亲。
He was neatly dressed, in gray wool slacks, a sweater, and what appeared to be a clip-on necktie.
他衣着整齐，穿着灰色羊毛休闲裤、毛衣，还有一条似乎是夹式领带。
He says he was always a good boy.
他说他一直是个好孩子。
He says he doesn't really get at angry people, doesn't know how to yell at people.
他说他并不真正对愤怒的人发脾气，也不知道如何对人大喊大叫。
Back in high school, he says, he was the kind of boy who'd go out with girls, but never make passes at them.
他说，早在高中时，他就是那种会和女孩出去但从不和她们调情的男孩。
I graduated.
我毕业了。
I would date occasionally.
我偶尔会约会。
And I did find somebody that seemed like a very nice person, that we had a lot in common.
我确实找到了一个看起来非常好的人，我们有很多共同点。
And we went out on a date.
我们出去约会了。
But that afternoon, after I met her in the morning, and that afternoon I had my first gay experience.
但那天下午，在我早上见到她之后，那天下午我有了我的第一次同性恋经历。
And so, it was really kind of a red-letter day.
所以，这确实是一个值得纪念的日子。
I went bowling with her in the evening.
晚上我和她一起去打保龄球。
And I was out with another man that afternoon.
那天下午我和另一个男人出去了。
So I thought well, the situation with the other man was scary and disappointing and painful, to say the least.
所以我想，至少可以说，另一个人的情况是可怕的、令人失望的和痛苦的。
And so I thought, well, fine.
所以我想，好吧。
That's out of my system.
那不属于我的系统。
I don't want any more of that.
我不想再这样了。
He went on to marry the girl, who he's still married to nearly three decades later.
他后来娶了这个女孩，近三十年后他仍然和她结婚。
But soon after their wedding, he became increasingly obsessed with men.
但他们结婚后不久，他就越来越迷恋男人。
He found himself driving out to the forest preserves, where gay men were known to hang out.
他发现自己开车去了森林保护区，那里是同性恋者出没的地方。
Men would walk over to his car.
人们会走到他的车旁。
Men would try to talk to him.
人们会尝试与他交谈。
And I would drive out of the forest preserve areas like a bat out of hell, to be perfectly honest.
老实说，我会像蝙蝠从地狱中赶出森林保护区一样。
And thinking that, fine, I didn't do anything.
我想，好吧，我什么也没做。
So there's no reason for me to feel guilty.
所以我没有理由感到内疚。
But I would end up with headaches that were so severe that I couldn't work.
但我最终会头痛得很厉害，以至于无法工作。
I would come home four or five days a week, and just be incapacitated with the pain.
我每周会回家四五天，然后就因疼痛而丧失行动能力。
But then I was taking aspirins and Tylenol, and everything else.
但后来我开始服用阿司匹林和泰诺，以及其他药物。
I got hooked on tranquilizers.
我迷上了镇静剂。
And it's a scary thing.
这是一件可怕的事情。
When this obsession first takes hold, where first you are thinking about it, and before you know it, you are completely consumed by the thought of doing something with another male.
当这种痴迷第一次出现时，你首先会想到它，在你意识到之前，你完全被与另一个男性做某事的想法所吞噬。
You're not even sure of what you want to do.
你甚至不确定自己想做什么。
You're not sure who you want to do it with or where these people are, but you are totally consumed with that quest.
你不确定你想和谁一起做，或者这些人在哪里，但你完全沉浸在这个任务中。
Well suddenly, my wife became the person that was stopping me from pursuing what I absolutely, positively had to do to survive.
突然之间，我的妻子成了阻止我追求我为了生存而绝对必须做的事情的人。
And your thinking gets distorted, would be an understatement.
你的想法会被扭曲，这是轻描淡写的。
Why what happens?
为什么会发生什么？
What do you start to think about?
你开始思考什么？
Maybe I shouldn't say this and maybe it's unique in my situation, but you think, gee, if she had an accident or something-- yes, I knew-- it sounds bizarre.
也许我不应该这么说，也许这在我的情况下是独一无二的，但你想，天哪，如果她出了事故或者发生了什么——是的，我知道——这听起来很奇怪。
But you're almost ready to plot to kill somebody.
但你已经准备好密谋杀人了。
And I've told her this.
我已经告诉她这件事了。
And it's something that we-- here's a very mild mannered person, almost plotting somebody's demise, because they're stopping you.
这是我们——这是一个非常温和的人，几乎策划了某人的死亡，因为他们阻止了你。
And they don't even know what's going on at this point.
他们甚至不知道此时发生了什么。
Do you think that at that time, before you told your wife, do think that in a day-to-day way, you had a lot of resentment that you would act out on, you would snap at her, that you would just be short with her?
你是否认为，在你告诉你的妻子之前，你是否认为在日常生活中，你有很多怨恨，你会表现出来，你会对她发脾气，你会和她不和？
Because what you are describing is being so resentful.
因为你所描述的是非常怨恨的。
No, I didn't.
不，我没有。
I held it inside.
我把它放在里面。
You see, this was your wife.
你看，这就是你的妻子。
You can't do this.
你不能这样做。
I'm one of these people that holds the door open for women and very courteous with people.
我是那些为女性敞开大门并且对人很有礼貌的人之一。
So I held it inside.
所以我把它放在里面。
And you think the top of your head is going to blow off instead.
你认为你的头顶会被炸掉。
Finally, after two years of marriage, he got up the courage to tell his wife he wanted to have sex with men.
终于，结婚两年后，他鼓起勇气告诉妻子他想和男人发生性关系。
She says, "Oh, is that all?" And I said, "You don't understand.
她说：“哦，就这些了吗？”我说：“你不明白。
I've got these feelings for men and I don't know how to deal with them." And she says, "Well, I married all of you.
我对男人有这种感觉，但我不知道如何处理它们。”她说：“好吧，我嫁给了你们所有人。
I didn't marry part of you.
我没有嫁给你的一部分。
We'll just figure out how to deal with it." And so from there, we just set the guidelines that would work for us.
我们只会想出如何处理它。”因此，从那时起，我们就制定了适合我们的指导方针。
I asked her what she needed to be comfortable?
我问她需要什么才能感到舒服？
She wanted, number one, to know where I would be.
第一，她想知道我会在哪里。
And that's fine.
那很好。
I would sooner leave a phone number underneath the telephone, that if I don't show up by 10 o'clock or 12 o'clock, she calls.
我宁愿在电话下面留下一个电话号码，如果我在 10 点或 12 点之前没有出现，她就会打电话来。
She wanted me to be home when the kids got home, or when the kids woke up in the morning, which is fine.
她希望我在孩子们回家时或孩子们早上醒来时在家，这很好。
The term, "are you sleeping with somebody," I think, is kind of stupid.
我认为“你和某人上床了吗”这个词有点愚蠢。
If I'm going someplace to sleep, I'll sleep at home.
如果我要去某个地方睡觉，我会在家睡觉。
I'm going out for sex, not for sleeping.
我出去是为了性，不是为了睡觉。
So that was never a problem.
所以这从来都不是问题。
That's really the only things.
这确实是唯一的事情。
And she said, "I want to be the most important person in your life." And she always has been and she always will be.
她说：“我想成为你生命中最重要的人。”她一直都是，而且永远都是。
He says, of course, he uses condoms.
他说，他当然使用安全套。
So he doesn't being home any infections or AIDS.
所以他在家中没有任何感染或艾滋病。
His children and the people he works with don't know he's gay, though after his father died, he told his mother.
他的孩子和与他一起工作的人并不知道他是同性恋，尽管在他父亲去世后，他告诉了他的母亲。
Why stay married?
为什么要保持婚姻状态？
Jerry Walters Because I love her and she loves me.
杰瑞·沃尔特斯 因为我爱她，她也爱我。
And we're probably the best thing that happened to each other, ever.
我们可能是彼此发生过的最好的事情。
See, I don't like-- there's a difference between gay feelings and living the gay lifestyle, a dramatic difference.
你看，我不喜欢——同性恋的感受和同性恋的生活方式之间是有区别的，一个巨大的区别。
And I know a lot of people will disagree with this and maybe take offense at this.
我知道很多人会不同意这一点，并且可能会对此感到生气。
There is an arrested adolescence in the gay community.
同性恋群体中有一个被逮捕的青少年。
There is an acceptance of lying because it was needed to survive.
人们接受说谎，因为这是生存所必需的。
And honesty is something that I really put a high price on and I really value it.
诚实是我非常看重并且非常重视的东西。
I suggest to him that he's the one who lies, by staying in a straight marriage, and not telling his own children he's gay.
我向他暗示，他就是那个撒谎的人，保持着异性恋婚姻，并且不告诉自己的孩子他是同性恋。
He says he's not really lying to his children.
他说他并没有真正对孩子撒谎。
As he explains it, there's no easy time to sit your kids down and tell them that you're gay.
正如他所解释的那样，让你的孩子坐下来告诉他们你是同性恋并不容易。
When they're 5 or 10, it'll make no sense.
当他们五岁或十岁的时候，这就没有意义了。
When they hit adolescence, it could be confusing, a kind of burden, as they sort through their own sexual identities.
当他们进入青春期时，当他们整理自己的性别身份时，这可能会令人困惑，成为一种负担。
If his children ask him directly he says, then he'll tell the truth.
如果他的孩子直接问他，他就会说实话。
And he says, they'll ask when they're ready to hear the answer.
他说，当他们准备好听到答案时就会询问。
If you want to know something, you will ask the question.
如果你想知道什么，你就会提出问题。
If you don't ask the question, either you know the answer or you don't want to deal with the answer.
如果你不问这个问题，要么你知道答案，要么你不想处理这个答案。
Am I right?
我说得对吗？
How old are your children?
你的孩子多大了？
Jerry Walters They're in their 20's.
杰里·沃尔特斯（Jerry Walters） 他们二十多岁。
They're girls.
她们是女孩。
Hm.
嗯。
Well, what is your assessment of what's going on?
那么，您对正在发生的事情有何评价？
Do you think that they know, but they choose not to ask consciously?
你认为他们知道，但他们选择不自觉地问吗？
Yes.
是的。
Ira Glass And it's a conscious choice?
Ira Glass：这是一个有意识的选择吗？
Yes.
是的。
I think it's very much a conscious choice.
我认为这是一个非常有意识的选择。
I think that they accept me for who I am.
我认为他们接受我本来的样子。
And I don't think they want to know a whole lot more about it.
我认为他们不想了解更多。
But you're saying they accept you for who you are, but they don't actually know entirely who you are, because you keep a certain part from them.
但你是说他们接受你本来的样子，但他们实际上并不完全了解你是谁，因为你向他们隐瞒了某些部分。
I am who my children see.
我就是我的孩子们看到的人。
The only thing different about me is that I have sex with men.
我唯一不同的是我和男人发生性关系。
That is the only difference.
这是唯一的区别。
If that makes me a different person in their eyes, what value is that?
如果这让我在他们眼中变成了另一个人，那还有什么价值呢？
How is that going to enhance me as a father if suddenly this is in the equation too?
如果突然间这也被纳入考虑范围，这将如何增强我作为一名父亲的地位？
I'm a good father.
我是一个好父亲。
I'm a good husband.
我是一个好丈夫。
I take care of them.
我照顾他们。
I was there when they needed things, and with school and growing up and advice and everything.
当他们需要东西的时候，我就在那里，包括上学、成长、建议等等。
And I don't think that what a person does in their bedroom, or someone else's bedroom, really is your children's concern.
我不认为一个人在自己的卧室或别人的卧室里做什么，真的是你的孩子关心的事情。
Later in our conversation, Jerry says that he'd like to tell his daughters the truth, but his wife doesn't want him to.
后来在我们的谈话中，杰里说他想告诉他的女儿们真相，但他的妻子不希望他这么做。
She doesn't want anybody to know.
她不想让任何人知道。
He feels he has to respect her wishes.
他觉得自己必须尊重她的意愿。
I ask him if his wife is simply ashamed that other people will know her husband looks for sex outside of the marriage?
我问他，他的妻子是否只是因为其他人知道她的丈夫在婚外寻找性行为而感到羞耻？
No, says Jerry.
不，杰瑞说。
She knows the marriage works for them and simply doesn't want to have to put up with the opinions of people who won't understand.
她知道婚姻对他们有利，只是不想忍受那些不理解的人的意见。
And they do have a sex life, Jerry says, of a sort.
杰瑞说，他们确实有某种性生活。
Are you as sexually attracted to women as you are to men?
你对女性的性吸引力和对男性的性吸引力一样吗？
Jerry Walters No. We don't depend on each other for our sexual satisfaction.
杰瑞·沃尔特斯 不。我们并不依赖彼此来获得性满足。
I don't know if I should go into that or not.
我不知道我是否应该讨论这个问题。
Probably not.
可能不会。
Masturbation is something that is part of what we do for sexual satisfaction.
自慰是我们为了获得性满足而做的事情的一部分。
And however you do it, it's satisfying.
不管你怎么做，它都是令人满意的。
Does she see other men?
她看别的男人吗？
Jerry Walters No. She says that's not what I'm about.
杰里·沃尔特斯 不。她说那不是我的事。
We talked for two hours.
我们聊了两个小时。
It started to get cold in the car.
车里开始变冷了。
Over time, as we talked, it became clear that this man stayed in his marriage, partly because he couldn't imagine any other life for himself.
随着时间的推移，正如我们交谈的那样，很明显这个男人坚持了他的婚姻，部分原因是他无法想象自己的其他生活。
To Jerry, being an adult means having a wife, a house in the burbs, a couple kids, dinner parties, and mortgage payments, and mowing the lawn.
对杰瑞来说，成为一个成年人意味着拥有妻子、郊区的房子、几个孩子、晚宴、抵押贷款和修剪草坪。
That was the only way that people lived.
这是人们唯一的生活方式。
I mean anything else wasn't even considered.
我的意思是其他任何事情都没有考虑到。
And so how could I be anything other than what I am?
那么我怎么可能成为不同于现在的我呢？
And that was to be a married man.
那就是成为一个已婚男人。
Do you think that you could have a kind of relationship like you have with your wife, with another man?
你认为你可以和你的妻子、另一个男人建立一种关系吗？
No. Ira Glass I tell him that these kind of long-term, marriage-like relationships are commonplace among the gay men I know.
不。艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）我告诉他，这种类似婚姻的长期关系在我认识的男同性恋者中很常见。
In the suburbs, it's not commonplace.
在郊区，这并不常见。
Let's face it.
让我们面对现实吧。
In the city it's accepted.
在城市里这是被接受的。
There are areas in the city where men can hold hands, where men can show affection outwardly.
城市里有一些地方是男人可以牵手的，男人可以在外面表达爱意的。
You won't find that in the suburbs.
在郊区你找不到这样的地方。
But I find there's a part of you which doesn't even believe that it exists.
但我发现你的一部分甚至不相信它的存在。
It doesn't, where I live.
我住的地方没有。
Ira Glass For a while, I told him about Susan Bergman's book, about how difficult it was for her when she realized that her father wasn't what he seemed.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）有一段时间，我向他讲述了苏珊·伯格曼（Susan Bergman）的书，讲述了当她意识到她的父亲并不像他看上去的那样时，她是多么困难。
I suggested to Jerry that his own daughters might feel betrayed, might find it hard to trust him if someday they find out he's been less than candid about his sexuality.
我向杰里建议，如果有一天他自己的女儿们发现他对自己的性取向不那么坦诚，他们可能会感到被背叛，可能会发现很难信任他。
He didn't agree.
他不同意。
Shall we take the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus in that context too, that your parents told you that this man is Santa Claus?
我们是否也可以把复活节兔子和圣诞老人放在这样的背景下，你的父母告诉你这个人是圣诞老人？
Do you hate your parents or distrust your parents' judgment from that point on?
从那时起，你是否讨厌你的父母或不相信父母的判断？
When you were a child, you were given just enough information to live your life.
当你还是个孩子的时候，你所获得的信息仅仅足以维持你的生活。
They didn't tell you that the landlord's going to throw you out of the house.
他们没有告诉你房东会把你赶出家门。
They didn't tell you that your father's going to lose his job.
他们没有告诉你你父亲会失业。
They didn't tell you a lot of the things that could hurt you, because they were your parents.
他们没有告诉你很多可能伤害你的事情，因为他们是你的父母。
Their job was to protect you.
他们的工作是保护你。
Her situation is that her father was, on the surface anyway, presented the image of being a family man, a very religious man--
她的情况是，她的父亲无论如何表面上都是一个顾家男人的形象，一个非常虔诚的男人——
Right.
对。
Ira Glass --was a musician in their church.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）——是他们教堂的一名音乐家。
And so there was this constant lie, because--
所以就有了这个持续不断的谎言，因为——
Where is the lie?
谎言在哪里？
Was he not all of those things?
他不就是所有这些东西吗？
Wasn't he all of those things, plus one other thing?
他不就是拥有所有这些东西，再加上另一件事吗？
We are complicated individuals.
我们是复杂的个体。
We can be a lot of things.
我们可以成为很多东西。
You said he was a musician.
你说他是音乐家。
He was a family man.
他是一个顾家的男人。
He was a minister.
他是一名部长。
He was a lot of things.
他有很多东西。
And he was just this one more thing, that he didn't choose to share with her.
而他只是又一件事，他没有选择与她分享。
And I think that was his privilege.
我认为这是他的特权。
How much do you need to know a person to love them, to live with them?
你需要了解一个人多少才能爱他们、与他们一起生活？
Jerry says he talks to about 260 men a year in the support group he leads for gay and bisexual married men.
杰里说，在他领导的同性恋和双性恋已婚男性支持小组中，他每年与大约 260 名男性进行交谈。
He says he urges men to think very seriously about what they'll be giving up if they choose to quit their marriages, if they choose to be honest with their families, if they choose to end their double lives.
他说，他敦促男人认真思考，如果他们选择放弃婚姻，如果他们选择对家人诚实，如果他们选择结束双重生活，他们将放弃什么。
Coming up, lies that every parent tells, including a secret that my mom has kept from her kids.
接下来是每个父母都会说的谎言，包括我妈妈对孩子们隐瞒的秘密。
And yes, it involves sex.
是的，它涉及性。
Yes.
是的。
In a minute, when our program continues.
一分钟后，我们的节目继续进行。
It's This American Life .
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose a theme, invite a variety of writers and artists to take a whack at that theme with monologues, documentaries, short fiction, short radio plays, anything we can think of.
当然，我们每周的节目都会选择一个主题，邀请各种作家和艺术家用独白、纪录片、短篇小说、短篇广播剧以及我们能想到的任何内容来探讨这个主题。
Today's program, Double Lives.
今天的节目是《双重生活》。
Act Three, Lighten Up.
第三幕，轻松起来。
Up until now, we've been hearing about pretty serious lies, told between parents and children.
到目前为止，我们已经听到了父母和孩子之间说的相当严重的谎言。
But there are lots of trivial lies that parents tell.
但父母却撒了很多琐碎的谎言。
In fact, you can reasonably argue that it is impossible to raise children without lying to them, which brings us to the Neo-Futurists.
事实上，你可以合理地争辩说，不撒谎就不可能养育孩子，这让我们想到了新未来主义者。
The Neo-Futurists are a Chicago group who perform 30 plays in 60 minutes every Friday and Saturday night.
新未来主义者是芝加哥的一个团体，每周五和周六晚上都会在 60 分钟内表演 30 部戏剧。
And they prepared this play, they call it a play.
他们准备了这个戏，他们称之为戏。
I think non-Neo-Futurists would call it a sketch.
我认为非新未来主义者会称其为草图。
They prepared this play on our theme today.
他们今天根据我们的主题准备了这部剧。
It's by Greg Allen, a recent father himself.
这是格雷格·艾伦 (Greg Allen) 写的，他本人也刚刚当上父亲。
Twenty-one lies I will tell my children.
我要告诉我的孩子们二十一个谎言。
Go.
去。
Number one.
第一。
If you don't get down, you're going to break your neck.
如果你不下来，你就会扭断脖子。
Three.
三。
Woman Mommy was just, um, singing.
女人妈妈只是，嗯，在唱歌。
Go back to bed.
回去睡觉吧。
Four.
四。
Man I will never forget this for as long as I live.
伙计，只要我活着，我就永远不会忘记这一点。
Five.
五。
Woman I'm sure he didn't mean to hurt you.
女人，我确信他不是故意伤害你的。
Seven.
七。
Woman Sure.
女人 当然。
I like your music.
我喜欢你的音乐。
It's just different.
只是不同而已。
Eight.
八。
Woman One more time and you're going to get out and walk.
女人 再一次，你就可以出去散步了。
Nine.
九。
Man Just because your friends do it, doesn't mean you have to do it.
伙计，仅仅因为你的朋友这样做，并不意味着你必须这样做。
Ten.
十。
Woman Oh now, you don't really mean that.
女人哦，现在你不是这个意思了。
Eleven.
十一。
Woman Sure.
女人 当然。
I like your haircut.
我喜欢你的发型。
It's just different.
只是不同而已。
Thirteen.
十三。
Man No one is going to notice a little pimple.
伙计，没有人会注意到一点小痘痘。
Fourteen.
十四。
Woman Sex is the expression of love and devotion.
女人的性是爱和奉献的表达。
Fifteen.
十五。
Woman It doesn't matter about the new car.
女人 新车并不重要。
All that matters is that you're OK.
重要的是你没事。
Seventeen.
十七。
Woman Sure.
女人 当然。
I like your boyfriend.
我喜欢你男朋友。
He's just different.
他只是不同。
Eighteen.
十八。
Woman I was just closing my eyes for a minute.
女人 我只是闭上眼睛一分钟。
Nineteen.
十九。
Woman You were the best baby in the world.
女人 你是世界上最好的孩子。
Twenty.
二十。
Woman Everything is going to be all right.
女人一切都会好起来的。
Twenty-one.
21。
Man Daddy will always be here to take care of you.
爸爸会永远在这里照顾你。
Curtain.
窗帘。
Ira Glass Greg Allen, Diana Slickman, Dave Awl, Heather Riordan, David Kodeski, Anita Loomis, and Stephanie Shaw, of the Neo-Futurists.
新未来主义者的艾拉·格拉斯·格雷格·艾伦、戴安娜·斯利克曼、戴夫·奥尔、希瑟·赖尔丹、大卫·科德斯基、安妮塔·卢米斯和斯蒂芬妮·肖。
Our parents can surprise us with what they don't tell us, with what they don't talk about, especially when it comes to sex.
我们的父母可能会用他们不告诉我们的事情、不谈论的事情让我们感到惊讶，尤其是在性方面。
Recently, I had this experience.
最近，我就有这样的经历。
An ex-girlfriend was in the gym, looking through a copy of a Marie Claire magazine, a woman's magazine.
一位前女友在健身房里翻阅一本《嘉人》杂志，一本女性杂志。
And there was an article in it on women's fantasies, their sexual fantasies, "What Do Your Man's Dirty Daydreams Reveal About What He Wants from You?" In the article, six sexperts-- that was the word they used, sexperts-- reveal the six most common male sex fantasy scenarios.
里面有一篇关于女人的幻想，她们的性幻想的文章，“你的男人的肮脏白日梦揭示了他想从你那里得到什么？”在这篇文章中，六位性专家（他们用的词是性专家）揭示了六种最常见的男性性幻想场景。
So my ex-girlfriend is reading.
所以我的前女友正在读书。
And there, in the third paragraph, one of the sexperts turns out to be my mother.
在第三段中，其中一位性专家就是我的母亲。
OK.
好的。
Ira Glass OK.
艾拉·格拉斯 好的。
So Mom, can I read to you a quote from an article?
妈妈，我可以给你读一篇文章中的引言吗？
Of course.
当然。
Ira Glass OK.
艾拉·格拉斯 好的。
Here it is.
这里是。
"Your man wants a woman who excites him through her own excitement.
“你的男人想要一个能通过自己的兴奋让他兴奋的女人。
You could stimulate yourself while he watches or let him participate by moving his hand to where you want it."
你可以在他观看的时候刺激自己，或者让他把手移到你想要的地方来参与。”
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass That's you being quoted in Marie Claire.
艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 这是《嘉人》杂志上引用的你的话。
All I know is that Anaheed was at the gym.
我只知道阿纳希德在健身房。
And she opens up Marie Claire to an article called, "Men's Sexual Fantasies." And it says at the top here, "Sexperts reveal the six most common scenarios, unlock the secret longings and psyches of the modern men who fantasize." And you, basically, are one of this sexperts.
她向《嘉人》杂志打开了一篇名为“男人的性幻想”的文章。顶部写着：“性专家揭示了六种最常见的场景，解开了现代男性幻想的秘密渴望和心理。”基本上，你就是这些性专家之一。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, I am.
是的，我是。
Ira Glass I didn't really know you were a sexpert?
Ira Glass：我真的不知道你是性专家？
What did you think I was?
你以为我是什么？
Ira Glass [LAUGHTER].
艾拉·格拉斯[笑声]。
Just another Jewish mom and psychologist.
只是另一位犹太妈妈和心理学家。
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Ira Glass So it wasn't like you were a sexpert and you were keeping it from your family?
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：所以你并不是一个性专家，并且你对你的家人隐瞒了这件事？
Um.
嗯。
You're talking about my family, meaning my children, not my husband?
你说的是我的家庭，指的是我的孩子，而不是我的丈夫？
Yeah.
是的。
Shirley Glass Because he knows that I'm a sexpert.
雪莉·格拉斯 因为他知道我是性专家。
[LAUGHTER].
[笑声]。
Shirley Glass And you can call him to verify that.
雪莉·格拉斯（Shirley Glass） 你可以打电话给他确认一下。
But my children always seem embarrassed if I discuss anything sexual.
但如果我讨论任何与性有关的事情，我的孩子们总是显得很尴尬。
So therefore, I tend not to around them.
因此，我倾向于不围绕他们。
When would you try to discuss something sexual with us?
您什么时候会尝试与我们讨论性方面的问题？
I might make a joke or say something that had a sexual connotation, and I'd get this disapproval.
我可能会开个玩笑或者说一些带有性暗示的话，我会遭到这种反对。
No?
不？
Ira Glass Yeah.
艾拉·格拉斯 是的。
I mean it doesn't affect me in any way to think that you and Dad would be sexual with each other.
我的意思是，认为你和爸爸发生性关系不会以任何方式影响我。
In fact, I even remember as a teenager understanding that and being kind of reassured by it.
事实上，我什至记得当我十几岁的时候就明白了这一点，并因此感到安心。
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Ira Glass Does that make any sense?
艾拉·格拉斯 这有道理吗？
It makes a little bit of sense.
这有一点道理。
But it really doesn't cover all the situations, if I'm just telling a joke or talking about somebody else.
但如果我只是讲一个笑话或谈论别人，它确实不能涵盖所有情况。
And I think it has to do with boundaries.
我认为这与边界有关。
And I think it has to do with that children, even adult children, do not like to regard their parents' sexuality.
我认为这与孩子们，甚至是成年孩子，不喜欢考虑父母的性取向有关。
Hm.
嗯。
You know something, you're actually convincing me.
你知道一些事情，你确实说服了我。
[LAUGHTER] Well, let's do a little scientific test.
[笑声] 好吧，让我们做一个小小的科学测试。
Can you think of a sexual joke?
你能想到一个性笑话吗？
You just tell one, right now.
你现在就告诉一个。
And I'll tell you my reaction.
我会告诉你我的反应。
I can't think of one.
我想不出一个。
Ira Glass [LAUGHTER] You know what I'm feeling right now?
Ira Glass [笑声] 你知道我现在的感受吗？
I'm feeling a profound--
我有一种深刻的感受——
Wait a minute, no-- Shirley Glass I heard a wonderful joke, but I don't even know if it's a joke or story.
等一下，不—— 雪莉·格拉斯 我听到了一个很棒的笑话，但我什至不知道这是一个笑话还是一个故事。
Because this is like something that might be true.
因为这可能是真的。
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Shirley Glass That when Neil Armstrong walked on the moon, and he said, one giant step for man and one-- what is it?
雪莉·格拉斯 当尼尔·阿姆斯特朗在月球上行走时，他说，一个人和一个人迈出了一大步——那是什么？
One giant step for mankind or whatever--
人类迈出的一大步或者其他什么——
One small step for a man, one giant step for mankind.
个人的一小步，人类的一大步。
Right.
正确的。
Right.
正确的。
That's it.
就是这样。
Right.
正确的。
One small step for man, one giant step for mankind.
个人的一小步，人类的一大步。
And then, he also said, "Good luck, Mr. Gorki." And for years people have been asking him what that meant?
然后，他还说道：“祝你好运，高尔基先生。”多年来人们一直在问他这意味着什么？
And he would never tell them.
他永远不会告诉他们。
And then this year, someone brought it up again, what did you mean when you said, "Good luck, Mr. Gorki?
然后今年，又有人提起，你说“祝你好运，高尔基先生”是什么意思？
And he said, well, I can tell now, because Mr. Gorki died this year.
他说，好吧，我现在可以知道了，因为高尔基先生今年去世了。
When I was a little boy, Mr. Gorki was our next door neighbor.
当我还是个小男孩的时候，戈尔基先生是我们的隔壁邻居。
And I was playing outside one day.
有一天我在外面玩。
And their bedroom window was open.
他们卧室的窗户开着。
And I heard Mrs. Gorki say, "Oral sex?
我听到戈尔基夫人说：“口交？
You want me to give you oral sex?
你想让我给你口交吗？
You'll get oral sex from me the day that boy next door walks on the moon."
当邻家男孩登上月球的那一天，你就会从我这里得到口交。”
[LAUGHTER] Well, now I'm examining my own feelings.
[笑声] 好吧，现在我正在审视自己的感受。
And I have to say, I did get very nervous there, in a way that does not correspond, perhaps, with shrugging my shoulders at the notion of you having some sexual life and sexual thoughts.
我不得不说，我确实在那里感到非常紧张，在某种程度上，也许与我对你有一些性生活和性想法耸肩的想法并不相符。
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass So let me read you some of your other quotes here.
艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 那么，让我在这里读一下您的其他一些名言。
All right.
好吧。
Ira Glass In the fantasy of man dominates woman, you're quoted as saying-- says Dr. Glass, quote, "In a caring relationship, it's certainly not abusive or unhealthy if the fantasy is played out in a light, teasing way." You're also quoted extensively in fantasy number five, spontaneous encounter with a beautiful stranger.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 在男人主宰女人的幻想中，格拉斯博士说，“在一段充满关爱的关系中，如果幻想以一种轻松、戏弄的方式进行，那当然不是虐待或不健康的。”你在第五部奇幻小说《与美丽的陌生人的自发邂逅》中也被广泛引用。
The key quote is this one, as far as I'm concerned, "Go to a restaurant, and at first pretend you don't know each other," suggests Dr. Glass.
就我而言，关键的引言是“去一家餐馆，首先假装你们彼此不认识，”格拉斯博士建议道。
Which when I read that, it actually explained some dinners I've had with you and Dad,--
当我读到这篇文章时，它实际上解释了我和你和爸爸一起吃的一些晚餐，--
[LAUGHTER] Ira Glass --I thought.
[笑声] Ira Glass——我想。
Well, you didn't talk very much between the two of you.
嗯，你们两个之间没怎么说话。
Have you done this?
你做过这个吗？
Have you gone to a restaurant with Dad and pretended you didn't know each other?
你有没有和爸爸一起去餐馆假装不认识？
No. Ira Glass No. But if you did, you're saying that--
不。艾拉·格拉斯 不。但如果你这样做了，你就是在说——
We've gone to restaurants with you and pretended we didn't know you.
我们和你一起去餐馆，假装不认识你。
[LAUGHTER] Shirley Glass --let's say that your manner of dressing didn't exactly conform to the style--
[笑声]雪莉·格拉斯——假设你的着装方式不太符合风格——
All right, all right, all right.
好吧，好吧，好吧。
I think everybody-- yeah.
我想每个人——是的。
--that the people in the restaurant.
——餐厅里的人。
Daddy would look at you.
爸爸会看着你。
And he would start popping Gelusil, before we'd go out to eat.
在我们出去吃饭之前，他就会开始服用 Gelusil。
And I'd say, now Barry, people are going to look at him and they're going to look at us, and they're going to know that we did not pick out his clothes.
我想说，现在巴里，人们会看着他，也会看着我们，他们会知道我们没有挑选他的衣服。
So now that I know that you're this big sexpert, do you have any sex advice for me?
既然我知道你是个性专家，你能给我什么性方面的建议吗？
That's not sex advice.
这不是性建议。
Shirley Glass We always end up this way, don't we?
雪莉·格拉斯：我们总是这样结束，不是吗？
With that particular advice, yeah.
有了这个特别的建议，是的。
That's the lady I know.
这就是我认识的那位女士。
I could ask you any question and that would be the advice.
我可以问你任何问题，这就是建议。
Well, that was the first rule of journalism you taught me.
嗯，这是你教给我的第一条新闻规则。
Is what?
是什么？
Shirley Glass No matter what they ask you, be sure to get your point in.
雪莉·格拉斯 无论他们问你什么，一定要表达你的观点。
You mean when you were first being interviewed by people, this is what I told you to say.
你的意思是当你第一次接受人们采访时，这就是我告诉你的。
Right.
对。
Right.
对。
Ira Glass Well, I'm glad we got to that then.
Ira Glass：嗯，我很高兴我们能做到这一点。
My mom.
我的妈妈。
Dr. Shirley Glass, in Baltimore.
雪莉·格拉斯博士，巴尔的摩。
Act Four, Sins of the Fathers.
第四幕，父辈的罪过。
What does it do to children if parents tell a big lie for years?
如果父母多年来一直撒谎，会对孩子产生什么影响？
Part of Susan Bergman's book, Anonymity, is her trying to understand the two parts of her father, strict, religious, family man; promiscuous, gay, night clubber.
苏珊·伯格曼在其著作《匿名》中，讲述了她试图理解父亲的两部分：严格、虔诚、顾家的男人；以及父亲的性格。滥交、同性恋、夜总会成员。
His personality was split in half, she writes, into two irreconcilable halves.
她写道，他的性格被一分为二，分成不可调和的两半。
But part of her book is about her discovery that growing up in his home, she became somebody who was also split in half, somebody able to carry on a life with two irreconcilable parts.
但她的书的一部分是关于她发现在他的家里长大的她也成为了一个分裂成两半的人，一个能够在两个不可调和的部分中继续生活的人。
She found herself as an adult, leading a double life.
她发现自己已经成年了，过着双重生活。
To end our program, we asked her to read from her book.
为了结束我们的节目，我们请她朗读她的书。
I pretend I am a faithful wife.
我假装我是一个忠实的妻子。
My husband is married to that faithful woman.
我丈夫娶了那个忠实的女人。
The woman looks like me.
那个女人长得很像我。
She moves around in my body.
她在我的身体里走来走去。
This is what I mean.
这就是我的意思。
You can't tell by looking.
你看不出来。
He makes love to her.
他和她做爱。
He has asked her a question once or twice, and she has heard herself reply with an avoidance, "Is there anything you haven't told me?
他问过她一两次，她听到自己回避地回答：“还有什么事情没告诉我吗？
I want to know more of you, Susan."
我想更多地了解你，苏珊。”
They spent last evening on opposite ends of the house, keeping things going, changing the music, refreshing people's drinks and trays of food.
昨晚，他们在房子的两端度过，维持秩序，改变音乐，为人们提供饮料和食物。
"What makes you ask that tonight after such a great party?
“今晚在一场如此盛大的聚会之后，你为什么会问这个问题？
All our friends here, scrumptious food.
我们所有的朋友都在这里，美味的食物。
Didn't you enjoy yourself?" She unfastens her gold-beaded bracelet and folds it carefully into its silk-lined box, replacing the lid.
你不开心吗？”她解开金珠手镯，小心翼翼地把它折进丝绸衬里的盒子里，盖上盖子。
"I saw the way Tom looked at you." "There's absolutely nothing for you to worry about between me and anyone here tonight.
“我看到汤姆看你的眼神。” “今晚我和这里的任何人之间绝对没有什么值得你担心的。
Most definitely nothing's up with Tom."
汤姆肯定没有什么事。”
She concentrates on slowing down, as she hangs up her belt and tosses her stockings in a basket of hand washing.
她挂起腰带，把长袜扔进洗手篮里，集中精力放慢速度。
"You're doing this jealous thing again.
“你又做这种嫉妒的事情了。
What kind of look?" "Do you have any secrets from me?" "A few." She'll keep it light.
什么样的表情？” “你有什么秘密瞒着我吗？” “有一些。” 她会保持轻松的态度。
"This is not my natural hair color, quite.
“这完全不是我自然的发色。
But the rest is real."
但其余的都是真实的。”
You must understand that lying is a temporal invisibility.
你必须明白，说谎是一种暂时的隐形。
It's the leaves you wrap yourself in when the voice in the garden calls.
当花园里的声音呼唤时，你会用树叶包裹自己。
I was learning to deflect any doubt or question about my faithfulness, back onto the questioner, so that I didn't have to perpetuate the lie.
我正在学习将任何关于我的忠诚度的怀疑或疑问转移到提问者身上，这样我就不必继续撒谎。
I had for years, part lied, but mostly told the truth.
多年来我一直在说谎，但大部分都是实话。
Two and more irreconcilable parts, which let me understand my father, or made me into him.
两个甚至更多的不可调和的部分，让我理解了我的父亲，或者让我成为了他。
Here was my father's ailment again, his dread of being known.
我父亲的毛病又来了，他害怕被人知道。
There's a family with children on the line.
电话里有一个带着孩子的家庭。
I force my family to serve as the same kind of false front I was raised to be from my father.
我强迫我的家人充当我从父亲那里长大的同样的假面。
Our presence testified to his normality.
我们的存在证明了他的正常性。
We failed, no matter how we strove for blessing, to discover the root of our calamity.
无论我们如何努力寻求祝福，我们都未能发现灾难的根源。
I can't shake his choice alone, I tell myself.
我不能独自动摇他的选择，我告诉自己。
So we slipped and fell, which is human.
所以我们滑倒了，这是人之常情。
And he died, stuck.
他死了，被卡住了。
And this gluey lie I keep perpetuating, sticks to me like a curse, revisited on the next generation.
这个粘糊糊的谎言我一直在延续，像诅咒一样粘在我身上，并在下一代身上重新出现。
My father is in the window when I glance up, and in the hurried tone of my voice, in the shape of my ribs.
当我抬起头时，我的父亲就在窗外，在我匆忙的语气中，在我的肋骨形状中。
What if, lights on, as is, he had asked us to love him?
如果灯亮了，照原样，他要求我们爱他怎么办？
I opened the book I had slipped into my jacket pocket and read, "Lord, who shall abide in thy tabernacle?
我打开塞在夹克口袋里的书，读道：“主啊，谁将住在你的圣幕里？
Who shall dwell on thy holy hill?
谁将住在你的圣山上？
He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.
行为正直、行事公义、心里说诚实话的人。
Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord?
谁能登耶和华的山？
Or who shall stand in his holy place?
或者谁能站在他的圣所呢？
He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity; nor sworn deceitfully." If her hands are clean and her heart pure, I had been forgiven.
手洁心清的人；谁没有高举自己的灵魂去追求虚荣；也不能起欺骗性的誓言。”如果她的手是干净的，她的心是纯洁的，我就已经被原谅了。
But I had yet to go to the man I had wronged, and whom I desperately wanted to love me, to cancel my ongoing lie, my maintaining the family pattern of dishonesty.
但我还没有去找那个我冤枉过的、我迫切想爱我的男人，取消我持续不断的谎言，我维持着不诚实的家庭模式。
My husband couldn't bear ever to look at me again.
我丈夫再也无法忍受看我一眼。
Hadn't my family put him through enough already?
难道我的家人已经让他承受够多了吗？
Wasn't I a hard pill he had to swallow and swallow?
我不就是他必须咽下去的硬药丸吗？
He would remarry within the year, a woman of fidelity and beauty and a way with children, my children.
他将在一年之内再婚，一个忠诚、美丽、有孩子的女人，我的孩子们。
What kinds of stories would they be told about me?
他们会讲述关于我的什么样的故事？
All that we had made together-- I took inventory-- did not add up to the ultimate banishment of the untruthful from the presence of God.
我们共同创造的一切——我清点了清单——并没有最终将不诚实的人从上帝面前驱逐出去。
If you give me the opportunity Lord, one more time, whatever the consequence, I prayed, I will tell the truth.
如果主啊，再给我一次机会，无论结果如何，我祈祷，我都会说实话。
Judson put the question simply, the same one as before.
贾德森把问题问得很简单，和之前一样。
That morning, I had sat in the sun, and read, and drunk my coffee, uninterrupted.
那天早上，我坐在阳光下，读书，喝咖啡，不间断。
Maybe it was a morning unlike any my father had ever been given.
也许这是一个不同于我父亲所经历过的早晨。
When Judson came home later that morning, is when he asked, "Is there something you'd like to tell me?" There was a reason my husband was unable to retire his doubts.
那天早上晚些时候，贾德森回家时问道：“你有什么想告诉我的吗？”我丈夫无法打消疑虑是有原因的。
I had made an offer of honesty, yes, but hadn't thought the test would come so soon.
是的，我已经提出了诚实的提议，但没想到测试会来得这么快。
Walking out on the plank of my own promise, I peered down at the water.
走在我自己承诺的木板上，我低头凝视着水面。
First, you leave your father's house, and then your own.
首先，你离开你父亲的家，然后是你自己的家。
There was a deep gulf below me I could not see into.
我脚下有一道深渊，我看不见。
This was the last of my life, as I knew it.
据我所知，这是我生命的最后一次。
"Whatever the consequence," I said inside my head to remind myself, breathing once.
“无论后果如何，”我在心里提醒自己，呼吸一次。
He could tell in the stillness of the pause between his question and my looking back up at him, that his life was changing too.
从他的问题和我回头看他之间的安静停顿中，他可以看出他的生活也在改变。
Today's program was produced by Alix Spiegel and myself, with Dolores Wilber, Peter Clowney, and Nancy Upkike.
今天的节目由我和阿利克斯·斯皮格尔、多洛雷斯·威尔伯、彼得·克劳尼和南希·厄普基克共同制作。
Contributing editors Margy Rochlin, Paul Tough, Jack Hitt, and Sarah Vowell.
特约编辑 Margy Rochlin、Paul Tough、Jack Hitt 和 Sarah Vowell。
Musical help today by John Connors, Steve Cushing, and the mysterious and elusive Rumpety Rattles.
今天的音乐由约翰·康纳斯 (John Connors)、史蒂夫·库欣 (Steve Cushing) 和神秘而难以捉摸的朗佩蒂·拉特尔斯 (Rumpety Rattles) 提供。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] To buy a tape of this or any of our This American Life programs, they're only $10, call us at WBEZ in Chicago, 312-832-3380, 312-832-3380.
[鸣谢] 要购买本节目或我们的任何《This American Life》节目的磁带，只需 10 美元，请致电芝加哥的 WBEZ，电话：312-832-3380、312-832-3380。
Our email address, [email protected] .
我们的电子邮件地址，[电子邮件受保护]。
[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight by Torey Malatia, whose mother never says things like--
[资金来源] WBEZ 管理由托里·马拉蒂亚 (Torey Malatia) 负责监督，他的母亲从未说过这样的话——
Oral sex?
口交？
You want me to give you oral sex?
你想让我给你口交吗？
You'll get oral sex from me the day that boy next door walks on the moon.
当邻家男孩登上月球的那一天，你就会从我这里得到口交。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week, with more stories of This American Life.
下周将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。