Writer Yiyun Li lost both of her sons. When words fell short, she turned to music
Heard on Fresh Air If you or someone you know may be considering suicide or is in crisis, call or text 988 to reach the Suicide & Crisis Lifeline .
在 Fresh Air 中听到如果您或您认识的人可能正在考虑自杀或处于危机之中，请致电或发短信 988 联系自杀和危机生命热线。
Writer Yiyun Li does not talk about "grief" or the "grieving process." To her, those words make it sound that at some point you emerge from grief.
作家李翊云并没有谈论“悲伤”或“悲伤的过程”。对她来说，这些话听起来像是你在某个时刻从悲伤中走出来。
Instead, Li prefers to use the word "abyss," which, she says, is where she expects to be for the remainder of her life.
相反，李更喜欢使用“深渊”这个词，她说，这是她希望余生待在的地方。
Li's teenage sons both died by suicide six years apart, Vincent in 2017 at age 16, and James in 2024 at age 19.
李的两个十几岁的儿子均在相隔六年的时间里自杀身亡，文森特于 2017 年自杀身亡，时年 16 岁，詹姆斯于 2024 年自杀身亡，当时年仅 19 岁。
Her Pulitzer Prize-winning 2025 memoir, Things in Nature Merely Grow , chronicled the loss of her sons and her effort to go on.
她于 2025 年获得普利策奖的回忆录《自然界中的事物仅仅生长》记录了她失去儿子的经历以及她为继续生活所做的努力。
"James' death taught me to suffer better," she says.
“詹姆斯的死教会了我更好地承受痛苦，”她说。
"To say, 'I can do it, and I can live with my pain and sorrow without ever wanting to stop feeling.'"
“要说，‘我能做到，我可以忍受痛苦和悲伤，而永远不想停止感觉。’”
Li's new novel, Music Against the Night, is set in the late 1700s and early 1800s and centers on two prodigies who are brought together by music, and drawn apart because of their aspirations.
李的新小说《音乐逆夜》以 1700 年代末和 1800 年代初为背景，讲述了两个神童因音乐走到一起，又因志向分开的故事。
The novel focuses on music, which sits outside of words.
小说的重点是音乐，它位于文字之外。
"I think I've had the feeling both times after my children's death that words often fall short, and falling short doesn't mean not succeeding, falling short doesn't mean failing," she says.
“我想在我的孩子去世后，我两次都有这样的感觉：言语常常不够，而不够并不意味着没有成功，不够也不意味着失败，”她说。
"But when I start a new project, I would like a subject [where] words naturally fall short.
“但是当我开始一个新项目时，我想要一个语言自然无法表达的主题。
So music is that choice."
所以音乐就是这个选择。”
Li grew up in China and served a year in the Chinese military before coming to the U.S. to study immunology.
李在中国长大，在来美国学习免疫学之前曾在中国军队服役一年。
She eventually left her Ph.D. program to become a writer.
她最终放弃了博士学位。计划成为一名作家。
Li is now a professor in the creative writing program at Princeton University.
李现在是普林斯顿大学创意写作项目的教授。
On the decision to set Music Against the Night in a different time period
关于将《音乐逆夜》设定在不同时间段的决定
I was in the middle of the novel when James died.
詹姆斯去世时，我正在读小说的一半。
This is a novel far from my usual interests or concerns, and the reason I think I went back to history is I would like to live again through history, through historical figures, through my characters living in the late 18th and early 19th century.
这是一本远离我平常兴趣或关注点的小说，我认为我回到历史的原因是我想再次生活在历史中，通过历史人物，通过生活在18世纪末和19世纪初的人物。
...
...
I'm making the past into a new now for myself and possibly for my readers.
我正在为自己以及可能为我的读者将过去变成新的现在。
I began my piano lessons at the end of 2023, purely to get to know how to play the piano.
我于2023年底开始学习钢琴，纯粹是为了了解如何弹钢琴。
And James died in February 2024, so two months into my piano lessons he died, and it occurred to me that piano or music is a good way for me to count time — because music is about time.
詹姆斯于 2024 年 2 月去世，所以我上钢琴课两个月后他就去世了，我突然想到钢琴或音乐是我计算时间的好方法——因为音乐与时间有关。
It's about counting the measure, counting the rhythm.
这是关于数小节、数节奏。
And also music is about ...
音乐也是关于...
be[ing] engaged with something else.
正在从事其他事情。
You can sit in your sadness all day long, do nothing, or crying.
你可以整天坐在悲伤中，什么也不做，或者哭泣。
Or, like me, I could just sit there and just play the same drill again, and again, as a way to know I was, in a way, staying in touch with the world.
或者，像我一样，我可以坐在那里，一遍又一遍地进行同样的练习，以此来知道我在某种程度上与世界保持着联系。
...
...
I'm not a concert pianist, but somehow I find it liberating and healthy to do something that you absolutely love but cannot do well.
我不是音乐会钢琴家，但不知怎的，我发现做一些你绝对喜欢但不能做好的事情是一种自由和健康的方式。
Every time I go to my piano lesson, I'm so intimidated.
每次去上钢琴课，我都感到很害怕。
I'm sweating because I just can't do it.
我满头大汗，因为我做不到。
I can hear other people do it, I cannot do it myself.
我可以听别人做，但我自己做不到。
But I think that's, again, acknowledging the limit of my capacity.
但我认为这再次承认了我能力的限制。
Both my children could be called prodigies, but James, my younger son, especially was extraordinarily odd and brilliant.
我的两个孩子都可以被称为神童，但我的小儿子詹姆斯尤其异常古怪和聪明。
...
...
We were greatly baffled.
我们感到非常困惑。
I remember he was 5 or 6, he said, "Mommy, you will never see the world.
我记得他五六岁的时候，他说：“妈妈，你永远见不到这个世界了。
I see it full of dots and squiggly lines." And that again was a strange perception of the world [that] we adults did not have access to.
我看到它充满了点和弯曲的线条。”这又是我们成年人无法接触到的对世界的一种奇怪的看法。
…
……
What is the responsibility or the difficulty of bringing up a child [who is] very brilliant?
养育一个非常聪明的孩子有什么责任或困难？
…
……
Some people would say, well, you really have to train him to be the next Einstein, but we did not want him to be the next Einstein, we want him to be a normal, happy boy living in an ordinary life.
有人会说，好吧，你真的必须把他培养成下一个爱因斯坦，但我们不希望他成为下一个爱因斯坦，我们希望他成为一个正常、快乐的男孩，过着平凡的生活。
He was a brilliant painter and we still have all his paintings around the house.
他是一位才华横溢的画家，我们的房子周围仍然保留着他所有的画作。
He was an oboist and when he wanted to learn the oboe, the oboe teacher said he was a bit young, because he was 8 when he want to learn oboe, but he was certain.
他是一名双簧管演奏家，当他想学双簧管时，双簧管老师说他有点年轻，因为他想学双簧管时才8岁，但他很确定。
...
...
[He had] started on the piano and he could articulate that piano was not his instrument.
[他]开始学习钢琴，他可以明确表示钢琴不是他的乐器。
He wanted to play the oboe.
他想演奏双簧管。
But mostly, he wrote beautiful poetry.
但最重要的是，他写了优美的诗歌。
He was a great poet.
他是一位伟大的诗人。
And he was a greater reader.
他是一个更爱读书的人。
I wouldn't call him an outlier, as James was, but he was brilliant and fun and interesting.
我不会像詹姆斯那样称他为异类，但他很聪明、有趣、有趣。
Sometimes I think people have all sort of thoughts about or against people who have chosen suicide, and people who've chosen or attempted suicide are often called selfish.
有时我认为人们对选择自杀的人有各种各样的想法或反对，而选择或试图自杀的人通常被称为自私。
But my experience is oftentimes people [are] in great pain, whether it's great mental pain or great physical pain.
但我的经验是，人们常常处于巨大的痛苦之中，无论是精神上的巨大痛苦还是身体上的巨大痛苦。
And sometimes people in deep depression cannot tell the difference between mental pain and physical pain, because everything together is a great kind of suffering.
有时，处于深度抑郁状态的人无法区分精神上的痛苦和身体上的痛苦，因为所有这些加在一起就是一种巨大的痛苦。
I think it's not that people who experience that kind of suicidal urge, it's not that they want to die or they want [to] use this to hurt other people.
我认为并不是那些经历过这种自杀冲动的人，不是他们想死或者他们想用它来伤害其他人。
I was born with innate curiosity and also sensitivity to things that did not quite make sense.
我生来就有好奇心，对那些不太有意义的事情也很敏感。
So I grew up in China.
所以我是在中国长大的。
And for instance, when I was little, all the adults would say, since you're a child, you have no right to decide who you want to be or what you want to do.
比如说，当我小的时候，所有的大人都会说，既然你是个孩子，你就没有权利决定你想成为谁或者你想做什么。
And my mother even had a saying, something along the [lines] that an adult decides and the child follows.
我母亲甚至有一句话，大人决定，孩子遵循。
I was quite young, you know, 4 or 5.
我当时很年轻，你知道，四五岁。
I just couldn't make sense of all of these teachings because I thought I was as capable of thinking as the adults, and why did I have to follow them?
我只是无法理解所有这些教导，因为我认为我有能力像成年人一样思考，为什么我必须遵循它们？
So I think that sort of sensitivity to things that are very, very nonsensical, I think maybe that's one thing that made me into a writer.
所以我认为对非常非常荒谬的事情的敏感性，我想也许这就是让我成为一名作家的原因。
Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez Wisler produced and edited this interview for broadcast.
安娜·鲍曼 (Anna Bauman) 和尼科·冈萨雷斯·威斯勒 (Nico Gonzalez Wisler) 制作并编辑了本次采访并进行广播。
Bridget Bentz, Molly Seavy-Nesper and Beth Novey adapted it for the web.
Bridget Bentz、Molly Seavy-Nesper 和 Beth Novey 将其改编为网络版。
TERRY GROSS, HOST: This is FRESH AIR.
主持人特里·格罗斯：这是新鲜空气。
I'm Terry Gross.
我是特里·格罗斯。
The words grief or the grieving process are not words writer Yiyun Li chooses to describe her own feelings.
悲伤或悲伤的过程并不是作家李伊云选择的词语来描述她自己的感受。
To her, those words make it sound that, at some point, you emerge from grief.
对她来说，这些话听起来像是在某个时刻，你从悲伤中走出来。
She prefers to use the word abyss, which is where she expects to be for the remainder of her life.
她更喜欢用“深渊”这个词，因为她希望自己的余生都在这个地方。
That doesn't mean she's incapable of laughter or even joy, but she expects to return to that abyss.
这并不意味着她不能笑，甚至不能快乐，但她希望回到那个深渊。
Her teenage sons both died by suicide six years apart, Vincent at age 16 in 2017 and James at age 19 in 2024.
她十几岁的儿子均在相隔六年的时间里自杀身亡，文森特于 2017 年 16 岁时自杀，詹姆斯于 2024 年 19 岁时自杀。
She wrote an eloquent memoir about that, published last year, titled "Things In Nature Merely Grow." It won a Pulitzer Prize.
她为此写了一本雄辩的回忆录，于去年出版，题为《自然界中的事物只会生长》。它获得了普利策奖。
That's among the many honors she's received for her fiction and nonfiction, including the PEN/Faulkner Award, the PEN/Hemingway Award and a MacArthur Fellowship, popularly known as the Genius Grant.
这是她因小说和非小说类作品获得的众多荣誉之一，包括笔会/福克纳奖、笔会/海明威奖和麦克阿瑟奖（俗称天才奖）。
Her new novel, "Music Against The Night," is set in the late 1700s and early 1800s.
她的新小说《黑夜音乐》以 1700 年代末和 1800 年代初为背景。
It's about two music prodigies - Adelaide, who's known as Percherette, and John.
这是关于两位音乐神童的故事：阿德莱德（人称佩切雷特）和约翰。
He wants to be the next Mozart and become rich and famous.
他想成为下一个莫扎特，变得富有和出名。
She wants to find her place in the music world and be recognized for her talent, in spite of how music is a place largely for men.
她希望在音乐世界中找到自己的位置，并因其才华而得到认可，尽管音乐主要是男性的领域。
Women can be wives, muses or mistresses.
女性可以是妻子、缪斯或情妇。
John and Adelaide are brought together by music and drawn apart because of their musical aspirations.
约翰和阿德莱德因音乐而走到一起，又因他们的音乐志向而疏远。
Yiyun Li grew up in China, served a year in the Chinese military, came to America to study immunology and left her Ph.D. program to become a writer.
李翊云在中国长大，在中国军队服役一年，来到美国学习免疫学，并在美国获得了博士学位。计划成为一名作家。
She's a professor in the creative writing program at Princeton University.
她是普林斯顿大学创意写作项目的教授。
I want to let you know in advance that our interview will include a discussion about suicide.
我想提前告知您，我们的采访将包括有关自杀的讨论。
If you or someone you know may be considering suicide or you're facing mental health struggles, you can call or text 988 to reach the Suicide & Crisis Lifeline.
如果您或您认识的人可能正在考虑自杀，或者您正面临心理健康问题，您可以致电或发短信 988 联系自杀与危机生命热线。
That's 988.
那是988。
Yiyun Li, welcome to FRESH AIR.
李翊云，欢迎来到FRESH AIR。
And before we start the interview, I just want to say I'm really sorry about your sons.
在我们开始采访之前，我只想对你的儿子们说声我真的很抱歉。
YIYUN LI: Well, thank you.
李伊云：好的，谢谢。
Thank you for having me.
谢谢你有我。
GROSS: Of all the novels you could have written after your older son's death and your younger son's death, why did you write this one?
格罗斯：在你的大儿子和小儿子死后你可以写的所有小说中，你为什么写这一篇？
What was it you needed?
你需要什么？
My impression is you wanted to get out of the now and go to another time and another place.
我的印象是你想摆脱现在，去另一个时间和另一个地方。
The story in this new novel - it's set in Paris, in India, in Russia, not in the U.S. - not even in this century.
这部新小说的故事背景是巴黎、印度、俄罗斯，而不是美国，甚至不是本世纪。
LI: Yes.
李：是的。
Well, I would say I started the novel, and I was in the middle of the novel when James died.
好吧，我会说我开始写这本小说，当詹姆斯去世时，我正在写小说的中间。
But you're right.
但你是对的。
This is a novel far from my usual interests or concerns.
这是一本与我平时的兴趣或关注点相去甚远的小说。
And the reason, I think, I went back to history is I would like to live again, through history, through historical figures and through my characters living in the late 18th and early 19th century, some of the concerns, confusions and just thoughts and feelings I have experienced in my life and other people have experienced in their lives.
我想，我回到历史的原因是我想再次生活，通过历史，通过历史人物，通过我生活在18世纪末和19世纪初的人物，一些我在我的生活中经历过的、其他人在他们的生活中经历过的担忧、困惑和正义的想法和感受。
So you're right.
所以你是对的。
I'm going away from this now.
我现在要离开这个了。
But I'm making the past into a new now for myself and possibly for my readers.
但我正在把过去变成新的现在，对我自己来说，也可能对我的读者来说。
GROSS: I have to say, there's so much death surrounding everybody in this story because of the era that it's set in.
格罗斯：我不得不说，由于故事所处的时代，这个故事中的每个人都经历了太多的死亡。
I mean, death is eternal.
我的意思是，死亡是永恒的。
There's no century that doesn't experience death.
没有一个世纪不经历死亡。
But it's especially - it's, like, very common in this period, in the late 18th and early 19th centuries.
但这在 18 世纪末和 19 世纪初的这个时期尤其常见。
There's a lot of death by childbirth.
因分娩而死亡的情况很多。
Adelaide's mother dies in childbirth.
阿德莱德的母亲在难产时去世。
There's infant death.
有婴儿死亡。
There's fevers for which there was no medication.
发烧却没有药物治疗。
There's war.
有战争。
There's the guillotine, and the characters have friends who are killed by the guillotine in Paris.
有断头台，剧中人物的朋友在巴黎被断头台杀死。
Did you consciously want to go back to a time when death was something very common?
你是否有意识地想回到死亡司空见惯的时代？
LI: Well, I didn't go back as a decision to explore death then.
李：嗯，当时我并没有决定去探索死亡。
I think I was more curious about the characters.
我想我对角色更好奇。
But as you pointed out, back then, death was prevalent - you know, illness, childbirth, childhood illness and revolutions in several countries and wars across the globe, different wars.
但正如你所指出的，当时死亡很普遍——你知道，疾病、分娩、儿童疾病和几个国家的革命以及全球各地的战争，不同的战争。
So death was a subject one could not avoid, writing about the time.
因此，死亡是人们在书写当时无法回避的话题。
GROSS: Are these characters based on real people?
格罗斯：这些角色是根据真人改编的吗？
LI: Yes.
李：是的。
So John Field was a Irish virtuoso who spent most of his adult life in Russia.
约翰·菲尔德是一位爱尔兰艺术大师，他成年后的大部分时间都在俄罗斯度过。
He invented the nocturne form, which was taken over by Chopin.
他发明了夜曲形式，并被肖邦继承。
And Chopin made that form popular, but John Field was the first one to write nocturnes.
肖邦使这种形式流行起来，但约翰·菲尔德是第一个写夜曲的人。
And he was considered the grandfather of Russian music.
他被认为是俄罗斯音乐之父。
And Adelaide was his wife and, again, a historical figure, but we did not know much about her.
阿德莱德是他的妻子，也是一位历史人物，但我们对她了解不多。
GROSS: But was she a prodigy, like she is in your book?
格罗斯：但她是像你书中那样的神童吗？
LI: One supposed so because she had an interesting story.
李：有人这么认为，因为她有一个有趣的故事。
She was an orphan born and raised in Pondicherry, French India.
她是一名在法属印度本地治里出生和长大的孤儿。
And when she appeared in history, she was a teenager in Moscow, and she was extremely talented.
而当她出现在历史中时，她还是莫斯科的一个少年，而且她天赋异禀。
She wanted to become a virtuoso, as John Field was.
她想成为一名艺术大师，就像约翰·菲尔德一样。
But this was 20 years - she was 20 years ahead of Clara Schumann, and women were not encouraged to go onstage.
但这是20年了——她比克拉拉·舒曼早了20年，并且不鼓励女性登上舞台。
She became an important music teacher in Russia.
她成为俄罗斯一位重要的音乐老师。
GROSS: Yeah.
格罗斯：是的。
I mean, the beliefs about women that she's brought up with are that you need to learn to smile.
我的意思是，她从小就灌输的关于女性的信念是，你需要学会微笑。
You need to be pretty.
你需要很漂亮。
But the audience wants to feel more intelligent than you are.
但观众希望感觉自己比你更聪明。
LI: Yes.
李：是的。
GROSS: And then once you're married, you don't have to worry about music or poetry anymore.
格罗斯：一旦你结婚了，你就不用再担心音乐或诗歌了。
LI: Yes.
李：是的。
And that was the time of her life.
那是她一生的时光。
And you're right.
你是对的。
They were encouraged to be intelligent just enough - not too much.
他们被鼓励要足够聪明，而不是太多。
GROSS: Right.
格罗斯：对。
(LAUGHTER) GROSS: Not too much...
（笑声） 格罗斯：没有太多……
LI: That's right.
李：是的。
GROSS: ...To be threatening.
格罗斯：……具有威胁性。
LI: Yes.
李：是的。
And as her grandmother in Pondicherry said, too much knowledge would be like too much spice in the food.
正如她在本地治里的祖母所说，太多的知识就像食物中太多的香料。
It would indicate not-fresh material.
这表明材料不新鲜。
GROSS: I think it's interesting that you chose two people who are involved with music, not words.
格罗斯：我认为有趣的是，你选择了两个与音乐相关的人，而不是文字。
Because you live, like, deep in the world of words, both as a reader and a writer.
因为无论作为读者还是作家，你都生活在文字的世界深处。
But music doesn't - music can have lyrics.
但音乐却不然——音乐可以有歌词。
But classical music - you know, piano music doesn't require words.
但古典音乐——你知道，钢琴音乐不需要歌词。
Was that a choice that you made intentionally - to write about people who aren't obsessed with language in the way that you are?
写那些不像你那样痴迷于语言的人，这是你有意做出的选择吗？
LI: Yes.
李：是的。
In fact, I think I've had a feeling both times after my children's death that words often fall short.
事实上，我想在我的孩子去世后，我两次都有一种感觉，言语常常不够充分。
And falling short doesn't mean not succeeding.
失败并不意味着不成功。
Falling short doesn't mean failing.
达不到要求并不意味着失败。
But when I started a new project, I would like a subject that words naturally fall short.
但当我开始一个新项目时，我想要一个自然无法用言语表达的主题。
So music is that choice.
所以音乐就是这个选择。
GROSS: You took piano lessons in preparation for the book.
格罗斯：为了准备这本书，你参加了钢琴课。
Do you still play?
你还玩吗？
LI: I do.
李：我愿意。
I cannot really claim I play.
我不能真正声称我在玩。
I'm still practicing.
我还在练习。
I'm a young pianist on the piano.
我是一名年轻的钢琴家。
I've been taking piano lesson for 2 1/2 years.
我已经上钢琴课 2 1/2 年了。
I auditioned with my teacher with a book proposal rather than any skill on the piano.
我和我的老师一起试镜时，是通过一本书的提案，而不是任何钢琴技巧。
(LAUGHTER) GROSS: Because you'd never played before?
（笑声） GROSS：因为你以前从未玩过？
LI: No, I've never had any musical background.
李：没有，我从来没有任何音乐背景。
But I feel that if I wanted to write about two prodigies on the keyboard, I should at least know a few things.
但我觉得，如果我想写两个键盘上的神童，我至少应该知道一些事情。
GROSS: So you write in the book that Adelaide teaches her ward how to play piano.
格罗斯：所以你在书中写道，阿德莱德教她的病房如何弹钢琴。
And she says, it did not matter if the girl had talent or not.
她说，女孩有没有天赋并不重要。
In fact, she turned out to be no more than a mediocre pianist.
事实上，她只不过是一位平庸的钢琴家。
But piano was a good way for her to learn how to count, mark and endure time.
但钢琴是她学习如何计算、标记和忍受时间的好方法。
Did you take piano lessons in part for research, but in part to learn how to endure time after your sons' death?
您上钢琴课的部分原因是为了研究，部分原因是为了学习如何忍受儿子去世后的时光吗？
LI: Yes, I began my piano lesson at the end of 2023 purely to get to know how to play the piano.
李：是的，我从2023年底开始学钢琴，纯粹是为了了解如何弹钢琴。
And James died in February, 2024.
詹姆斯于 2024 年 2 月去世。
So two months into my piano lesson, he died.
就在我上钢琴课两个月后，他去世了。
And it occurred to me that piano or music is a good way for me to count time because music is about time.
我突然想到钢琴或音乐是我计算时间的好方法，因为音乐是关于时间的。
It's about counting the measure, counting the rhythm.
这是关于数小节、数节奏。
And also, music is about to be engaged with something else.
而且，音乐即将与其他事物结合起来。
You know, you can sit in your sadness all day long and doing nothing or crying.
你知道，你可以整天坐在悲伤中，什么也不做，或者哭泣。
Or like me, I could just sit there and just play the same drill again and again as a way to know I was, in a way, staying in touch with the world.
或者像我一样，我可以坐在那里，一次又一次地进行相同的练习，以此来知道我在某种程度上与世界保持联系。
GROSS: You've brought several themes that you've experienced in your life into the new novel.
格罗斯：你把生活中经历过的几个主题带入了新小说中。
And one of them is about prodigies.
其中之一是关于神童的。
Like, your younger son was a prodigy.
就像，你的小儿子是个神童。
His gift was intelligence.
他的天赋是智慧。
And he was constantly, like, reading and researching and learning.
他不断地阅读、研究和学习。
And give us some examples of how, like, brilliant he was at a super young age.
给我们举一些例子来说明他在年轻时是多么的聪明。
LI: Right.
李：对。
You know, both of my children were - could be called prodigies.
你知道，我的两个孩子都可以被称为神童。
But James, my younger son, or younger son especially, was extraordinarily odd and brilliant.
但詹姆斯，我的小儿子，尤其是小儿子，却异常古怪而聪明。
So I remember when he was 3 and Vincent was 7 - or Vincent was 6.
所以我记得他 3 岁，文森特 7 岁——或者说文森特 6 岁。
And Vincent asked James, do you know how babies get born (laughter)?
文森特问詹姆斯，你知道婴儿是如何出生的吗（笑声）？
And James gave his bigger brother a sort of lecture on how human beings reproduce.
詹姆斯给他的哥哥做了一场关于人类如何繁殖的讲座。
And of course we were all shocked.
当然，我们都感到震惊。
And then he ended the lecture saying, you can find that information on Page 76 of the encyclopedia of human bodies.
然后他结束演讲说，你可以在人体百科全书第76页找到这些信息。
And that's the kind of thing I think - it was both lovely and odd.
我就是这么想的——它既可爱又奇怪。
GROSS: What was it like being the parent of a prodigy being so much smarter than most adults in a lot of ways, in terms of his span of knowledge?
格罗斯：作为一个神童的父母，他在很多方面都比大多数成年人聪明得多，就他的知识广度而言，是什么感觉？
I wouldn't say he had the wisdom of having lived many years.
我不会说他有活了很多年的智慧。
LI: Right.
李：对。
GROSS: But he had, like, the facts at his disposal, facts that, like, most adults don't even know.
格罗斯：但他拥有可供他支配的事实，大多数成年人甚至不知道的事实。
They know about the facts of life.
他们了解生活的真相。
(LAUGHTER) LI: Yes.
（笑声） 李：是的。
GROSS: But he knew, like, scientific facts and physics and just, like, all kinds of things.
格罗斯：但他知道科学事实和物理学，以及各种各样的事情。
So what responsibilities or what awe did that bring for you as a mother?
那么作为一个母亲，这给你带来了什么责任或敬畏呢？
LI: I think it brought awe and bafflement.
李：我认为它带来了敬畏和困惑。
I would say we were greatly baffled.
我想说我们非常困惑。
And also, I remember he was 5 or 6.
而且，我记得他五六岁。
He said, Mom, you will never see the world I see.
他说，妈妈，你永远看不到我所看到的世界。
It's full of dots and squiggly lines.
它充满了点和弯曲的线条。
And that, again, was a strange perception of the world, as you say, we adults did not have access to.
正如你所说，这又是我们成年人无法接触到的一种奇怪的世界观。
GROSS: I have no idea what he meant by that, whether that was, like, literal, and if it was, that's kind of disturbing.
格罗斯：我不知道他的意思是什么，是否是字面意思，如果是的话，那就有点令人不安了。
LI: I don't know either.
李：我也不知道。
I did not know either.
我也不知道。
And, I mean, you did ask, what is the responsibility or the difficulty of bringing up a child very brilliant?
而且，我的意思是，您确实问过，养育一个非常出色的孩子的责任或困难是什么？
And I think the decision - some people would say, well, you really have to train him to be the next Einstein.
我认为这个决定 - 有些人会说，好吧，你真的必须训练他成为下一个爱因斯坦。
But we did not want him to be the next Einstein.
但我们不希望他成为下一个爱因斯坦。
We wanted him to be a normal, happy boy living an ordinary life.
我们希望他成为一个正常、快乐的男孩，过着平凡的生活。
GROSS: My guest is Yiyun Li.
格罗斯：我的客人是李依云。
Her new novel is called "Music Against The Night." Her Pulitzer Prize-winning memoir is called "Things In Nature Merely Grow." We'll be right back.
她的新小说名叫《黑夜音乐》。她获得普利策奖的回忆录名为《自然界中的事物只会生长》。我们马上回来。
This is FRESH AIR.
这是新鲜空气。
(SOUNDBITE OF RED HEART THE TICKER'S "SLIGHTLY UNDER WATER") GROSS: This is FRESH AIR.
（红心的原声片段“稍微在水下”） GROSS：这是新鲜空气。
Let's get back to my interview with Yiyun Li.
让我们回到我对李翊云的采访。
Her new novel is called "Music Against The Night." Her Pulitzer Prize-winning memoir, called "Things In Nature Merely Grow," is about the suicide of her teenage sons.
她的新小说名叫《黑夜音乐》。她获得普利策奖的回忆录《自然界中的事物只会生长》讲述了她十几岁儿子的自杀事件。
Part of our conversation is about suicide.
我们谈话的一部分是关于自杀的。
If you're having suicidal thoughts or a mental health crisis, there's someone you can talk with at the suicide and crisis lifeline.
如果您有自杀念头或出现心理健康危机，您可以通过自杀和危机生命线与某人交谈。
Just call or text 988.
只需拨打或发短信 988 即可。
That's 988.
那是988。
You said that you thought your older son was kind of a prodigy, too.
你说你认为你的大儿子也是个神童。
What was his gift?
他的礼物是什么？
LI: He was a brilliant painter.
李：他是一位出色的画家。
And we still have all his paintings around the house.
我们的房子里还保留着他所有的画作。
He was an oboist.
他是一名双簧管演奏家。
And when he wanted to learn the oboe, the oboe teacher said he was a bit young because he was 8 when he wanted to learn the oboe.
而当他想学双簧管的时候，双簧管老师说他有点小，因为他想学双簧管的时候才8岁。
But he was certain because he was, like everybody else, was started on the piano.
但他很确定，因为他和其他人一样，都是从钢琴开始的。
And he could articulate that piano was not his instrument.
他可以明确表示钢琴不是他的乐器。
He wanted to play the oboe.
他想演奏双簧管。
But mostly, he wrote beautiful poetry.
但最重要的是，他写了优美的诗歌。
He was a great poet.
他是一位伟大的诗人。
And he was a great reader.
他是一位伟大的读者。
So, I mean, I wouldn't call him a outlier as James was.
所以，我的意思是，我不会像詹姆斯那样称他为异类。
But he was brilliant and fun and interesting.
但他很聪明、有趣、有趣。
GROSS: Did you teach your sons to read before they were in school?
格罗斯：你的儿子上学前有教他们读书吗？
LI: I did not - it's interesting.
李：我没有——这很有趣。
I think - I did not teach them.
我想——我没有教他们。
They pick up reading by themselves.
他们自己开始读书。
And I respect their quiet reading time, especially James.
我尊重他们安静的阅读时间，尤其是詹姆斯。
James started reading when he was 2, so I certainly did not teach him.
詹姆斯两岁的时候就开始读书了，所以我当然没有教他。
And he just picked it up.
他刚刚把它捡了起来。
Vincent started reading early.
文森特很早就开始读书。
We - I think, you know, this stereotypical idea of an Asian American parent or Asian parent being the tiger parent, tiger mom - I think I am - I was the opposite of tiger mom.
我们 - 我认为，你知道，亚裔美国父母或亚洲父母是虎父母，虎妈妈的刻板印象 - 我想我是 - 我是虎妈妈的对立面。
I was sort of free-range chicken - free-range...
我有点像是散养的鸡——散养的……
GROSS: (Laughter).
格罗斯：（笑声）。
LI: ...Chicken mom.
李：……鸡妈妈。
So I raised them as free-range chickens.
所以我把它们当作散养鸡来饲养。
GROSS: I'm trying to understand how a 2-year-old can teach himself to read.
格罗斯：我试图了解一个两岁的孩子如何自学阅读。
LI: I know.
李：我知道。
I mean, it's mind-boggling because his preschool teacher said - I worried - at the time, I worried about his potty training, you know, diaper training.
我的意思是，这令人难以置信，因为他的学前班老师说 - 我担心 - 当时，我担心他的如厕训练，你知道，尿布训练。
And so I always talk with the teacher about potty training, and she was quite relaxed.
所以我总是和老师谈论如厕训练，她也很放松。
She said, come on.
她说，来吧。
You know, how many kids could read in their diapers?
你知道有多少孩子可以穿着尿布读书吗？
You shouldn't worry about it.
你不应该担心它。
GROSS: Well, your sons were opposite in one way, in the sense that your older son was, like, very emotional, deeply experiencing highs and lows.
格罗斯：嗯，你的儿子们在某种程度上是相反的，从某种意义上说，你的大儿子非常情绪化，深刻地经历着高潮和低谷。
And your younger son withheld emotion.
而你的小儿子则压抑着情感。
And, you know, who - I don't know what he experienced, but he apparently didn't express it?
而且，你知道，谁——我不知道他经历了什么，但他显然没有表达出来？
LI: Yes.
李：是的。
And I think, again, that, you know, having two children - having had two children - sort of quite opposite in many ways, as a parent, I could only say a lot of things were given to them.
我再次认为，你知道，有两个孩子——有两个孩子——在很多方面都是完全相反的，作为父母，我只能说很多东西都被给予了他们。
And they were born that way.
他们生来就是这样。
And so yes.
所以是的。
I think Vincent was extremely artistic and emotional and joyful and sorrowful and also articulate.
我认为文森特非常具有艺术性和情感性，既快乐又悲伤，而且善于表达。
Well, he could articulate all his feelings.
好吧，他可以表达他所有的感受。
And James, as you said, did not want to talk.
正如你所说，詹姆斯不想说话。
And we could only just bring them up as who they were, in a way.
在某种程度上，我们只能按照他们本来的样子来讲述他们。
GROSS: Do you feel that you were born with a gift, too, as a writer - that that was something innate?
格罗斯：你是否觉得作为一名作家，你也具有与生俱来的天赋——这是与生俱来的？
LI: You know - now, that's a good question that I could never answer well.
李：你知道，这是一个很好的问题，但我永远无法很好地回答。
But I wouldn't say I was born with innate talent.
但我不会说我天生就有天赋。
But I was born with innate curiosity and also sensitivity to things that did not quite make sense.
但我生来就有好奇心，对那些不太有意义的事情也很敏感。
So I grew up in China.
所以我是在中国长大的。
And, for instance, when I was little, all the adults would say, you know, since you're a child, you have no right to decide who you want to be or what you want to do.
比如说，当我小的时候，所有的成年人都会说，你知道，因为你是个孩子，你没有权利决定你想成为谁或你想做什么。
And my mother even had a saying - something along the line that an adult decides and the child follows.
我母亲甚至有一句话——大人决定，孩子遵循。
I was quite young - you know, 4 or 5.
我当时还很年轻——你知道，四五岁。
I just couldn't make sense of the - out of this - all these teachings because I thought I was as capable of thinking as the adults.
我只是无法理解所有这些教导，因为我认为我有能力像成年人一样思考。
And why did I have to follow them?
为什么我必须跟随他们？
So I think that sort of sensitivity to things that are very, very nonsensical - I think maybe that's one thing that made me into a writer.
所以我认为对非常非常荒谬的事情的敏感性 - 我想也许这就是让我成为一名作家的原因。
GROSS: What was one of the most upsetting things that your mother commanded you to do that you didn't want to?
格罗斯：你母亲命令你做但你不想做的最令人沮丧的事情之一是什么？
LI: It's a perception of what mother would know about a child.
李：这是一种母亲对孩子了解程度的看法。
So my mother's line was I came from her body.
所以我母亲的台词是我来自她的身体。
So she knew me through and through without having to talk to me or without having to look at me.
所以她完全了解我，不需要和我说话，也不需要看我。
She already knew me inside out, which, even as a child, didn't make sense to me.
她已经对我了如指掌，即使我还是个孩子，这对我来说也毫无意义。
GROSS: It still doesn't make sense.
格罗斯：这仍然没有意义。
(LAUGHTER) LI: It's almost like your mother claimed to have omniscience about you, which - you know, nobody has omniscience about anyone.
（笑声） 李：这几乎就像你母亲声称对你无所不知一样，你知道，没有人对任何人都无所不知。
GROSS: Your mother was a teacher.
格罗斯：你的母亲是一名老师。
LI: Yes.
李：是的。
GROSS: But as a mother, she was emotionally and physically abusive.
格罗斯：但作为一名母亲，她在情感上和身体上都受到虐待。
What did you learn as a mother from being mothered by someone who was abusive?
作为一个母亲，你从施虐者的母亲中学到了什么？
LI: I had - well, I think my - I mean, early on, I said I raised free-range chickens - as a joke.
李：我曾经 - 嗯，我想我的 - 我的意思是，早些时候，我说我养了散养鸡 - 作为一个笑话。
And I think mostly, I raised my children with utter respect of them as individuals.
我认为最重要的是，我在抚养孩子时完全尊重他们作为个体。
And they always could say - or they always could say how they felt about the situation.
他们总是可以说——或者他们总是可以说他们对这种情况的感受。
And everything was not dictated from the parents' side.
而且一切都不是父母一方决定的。
It was always a discussion and a negotiation sometimes.
有时总是进行讨论和谈判。
So I think if I did one thing right as a mother - was that I did not put my wills upon them.
所以我想，作为一名母亲，如果我做对了一件事情，那就是我没有把自己的意愿强加给他们。
GROSS: My guest is Yiyun Li.
格罗斯：我的客人是李依云。
Her new novel is called "Music Against The Night." Her Pulitzer Prize-winning memoir is called "Things In Nature Merely Grow." If you're having suicidal thoughts or having a mental health crisis, you can talk with someone at the Suicide & Crisis Lifeline.
她的新小说名叫《黑夜音乐》。她获得普利策奖的回忆录名为《自然界中的事物只会生长》。如果您有自杀念头或有心理健康危机，您可以与自杀与危机生命热线的人员交谈。
Just text or call 988.
只需发短信或拨打 988 即可。
That's 988.
那是988。
We'll be right back.
我们马上回来。
I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.
我是特里·格罗斯，这是新鲜空气。
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC) GROSS: This is FRESH AIR.
（音乐原声） 格罗斯：这是新鲜空气。
I'm Terry Gross, back with writer Yiyun Li.
我是特里·格罗斯，和作家李一云一起回来。
Her many honors include a Pulitzer Prize for her memoir, "Things in Nature Merely Grow," about her two teenage sons who died by suicide six years apart.
她的许多荣誉包括她的回忆录《自然中的事物仅仅生长》获得普利策奖，该回忆录讲述了她两个相隔六年自杀身亡的十几岁儿子的故事。
Her new novel, "Music Against The Night," set in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, is about two music prodigies - John, who wants to be the next Mozart, and Adelaide, who's a better composer but isn't taken as seriously because she's a woman.
她的新小说《黑夜音乐》以 18 世纪末和 19 世纪初为背景，讲述了两位音乐神童的故事：约翰想成为下一个莫扎特，而阿德莱德是一位更好的作曲家，但由于她是女性而不受重视。
Part of our conversation is about suicide.
我们谈话的一部分是关于自杀的。
If you're having suicidal thoughts or a mental health crisis, there's someone you can talk with at the Suicide & Crisis Lifeline.
如果您有自杀念头或出现心理健康危机，您可以通过自杀与危机生命热线与某人交谈。
Just call or text 988.
只需拨打或发短信 988 即可。
That's 988.
那是988。
So you started your novel - correct me if I'm wrong here.
所以你开始了你的小说——如果我错了请纠正我。
You started your novel when your older son had already died, and then you completed it after your younger son died as well.
你在大儿子去世时开始写小说，在小儿子也去世后完成小说。
I want to talk with you about how that changed your life.
我想和你谈谈这如何改变了你的生活。
But first, I want to hear how it changed your novel and what you wanted to say.
但首先，我想听听它如何改变了你的小说以及你想说的内容。
LI: Yes.
李：是的。
When I started the novel, Vincent already died, but James was alive.
当我开始写小说时，文森特已经死了，但詹姆斯还活着。
And three-quarters into the first draft, James died.
初稿进行到四分之三时，詹姆斯去世了。
You know, earlier, we talk about playing the piano as a way of marking time.
你知道，之前我们谈到弹钢琴是一种原地踏步的方式。
The day after James died, my best friend said, I suppose you're going to take a break from writing.
詹姆斯去世后的第二天，我最好的朋友说，我想你应该停止写作了。
But knowing you, I know you won't do that.
但我了解你，我知道你不会这么做。
And my answer to her was, you're right.
我对她的回答是，你是对的。
I cannot take a break because writing is a way for me to mark time.
我不能休息，因为写作是我打发时间的一种方式。
So I finished the first draft before I started to think about writing a memoir because I wanted to get my thoughts through in a novel first before I turned to nonfiction.
所以我在开始考虑写回忆录之前完成了初稿，因为我想在转向非小说类作品之前先在小说中表达我的想法。
GROSS: Many things in your novel made me think of your life, even though it's set in another century in other places.
格罗斯：你小说中的很多事情让我想起了你的生活，尽管故事发生在另一个世纪的其他地方。
And this is an example of one of those sentences.
这是其中一个句子的示例。
(Reading) All people die.
（读）所有人都会死。
Not all have the patience to wait until old age.
并不是所有人都有耐心等到老年。
LI: Yes.
李：是的。
You're right.
你说得对。
I think the novel, though it was about two musicians in another time - I would say I have written everything I've known about life into this novel.
我认为这部小说虽然是关于另一个时代的两位音乐家的，但我想说我已经把我所知道的关于生活的一切都写进了这部小说。
And I've known many people, old and young, and I knew two people who did not wait until old age to die.
我认识很多人，有老人和年轻人，而且我认识两个人，他们没有等到年老时才死去。
So I think all those thoughts and experiences came into the novel.
所以我认为所有这些想法和经历都融入到了小说中。
GROSS: If you're comfortable talking about this, you attempted to end your life before your sons died.
格罗斯：如果你愿意谈论这件事，那么你曾试图在你的儿子去世之前结束自己的生命。
Can I ask what you were enduring during that period?
请问那段时间你经历了什么？
LI: Yes.
李：是的。
I think it's just a profound depression.
我认为这只是一种严重的抑郁症。
And really, sometimes I think people have all sort of thoughts about or against people who have chosen suicide.
确实，有时我认为人们对选择自杀的人有各种各样的想法或反对。
And people who have chosen or attempted suicide are often called selfish.
选择或试图自杀的人通常被称为自私。
But my experience is oftentimes people in great pain, whether it's great mental pain or great physical pain.
但我的经历是，人们常常处于巨大的痛苦之中，无论是精神上的巨大痛苦还是身体上的巨大痛苦。
And sometimes people in deep depression cannot tell the difference between mental pain and physical pain because everything is - together is a great kind of suffering.
有时，处于深度抑郁状态的人无法区分精神上的痛苦和身体上的痛苦，因为一切都在一起就是一种巨大的痛苦。
I think it's not that people who experience that kind of suicidal urge - it's not that they want to die or they want to use this to hurt other people, as it feels - at least in my experience, it felt as though that was the only way to stop the suffering.
我认为并不是那些经历过这种自杀冲动的人——他们并不是想死，也不是他们想用它来伤害别人，至少在我的经验中，感觉好像这是停止痛苦的唯一方法。
But I also knew how that death would affect my children and my husband - you know, would - how other people would be hurt.
但我也知道那次死亡将如何影响我的孩子和我的丈夫——你知道，会——其他人会受到怎样的伤害。
Except I think there's always that fear that if you would go on living as this miserable mother, wouldn't that be even worse for your children?
但我认为人们总是担心，如果你继续像这个悲惨的母亲一样生活，对你的孩子来说不是更糟吗？
So there was that thought when I was in deep depression - was - I consider myself entirely incapable of being a good mother to them.
所以当我处于深度抑郁状态时，我就产生了这样的想法——我认为自己完全没有能力成为他们的好母亲。
GROSS: Were you not a good mother at the time?
格罗斯：你当时不是一个好母亲吗？
LI: No, I was.
李：不，我是。
I suppose if you look from the outside, I was a good mother.
我想如果你从外表来看，我是一个好母亲。
I cooked.
我做饭了。
I picked them up from school.
我从学校接他们。
I drove them to all sorts of activities.
我开车带他们去参加各种活动。
But I felt helpless.
但我感到很无助。
I think that helplessness - that kind of despair, knowing even as a mother, you could not get rid of that despair - and that made me feel perhaps I wasn't a good mother.
我认为那种无助——那种绝望，知道即使作为一个母亲，你也无法摆脱那种绝望——这让我觉得我也许不是一个好母亲。
GROSS: After trying to prevent your son's deaths, particularly Vincent's, because you knew that he was prone to such depressions that suicide might be a possibility - one of his teachers when he was in grade school, I think, even warned you that that would be a possibility.
格罗斯：在试图阻止你儿子的死亡，特别是文森特的死亡之后，因为你知道他很容易患上抑郁症，以至于有可能自杀——我想，他上小学时的一位老师甚至警告过你，这是有可能的。
And so, like, you did everything you could to try to prevent it.
所以，就像，你尽了一切努力来阻止它。
But he - you know, he did it anyways.
但他——你知道，无论如何他还是这么做了。
He ended his life.
他结束了自己的生命。
And you write in your memoir that respected his decision, and you respected your younger son's decision to die by suicide as well.
你在回忆录中写道，尊重他的决定，也尊重你小儿子自杀的决定。
And I think that's not what people would expect a parent to say.
我认为人们不会期望父母会这么说。
So I'd love to hear you, like, talk about reaching that conclusion that you were going to respect their decisions.
所以我很想听听您谈论如何得出您将尊重他们的决定的结论。
LI: Right.
李：对。
I know it's something that people could get upset with.
我知道这是人们可能会感到不安的事情。
And I think I would have to be a little careful, you know, outlining my thinking, which I wrote about in the book.
我想我必须要小心一点，你知道，概述我的想法，我在书中写到了这一点。
Yes.
是的。
I think parents could do everything within their capacity.
我觉得父母可以做一些力所能及的事情。
And sometimes children, just because they were young, because they were not as experienced in enduring extreme pain - and you could do all you could.
有时孩子们，只是因为他们还年轻，因为他们在忍受极度痛苦方面没有那么丰富的经验——而你可以尽你所能。
But they would still feel that despair, you know, whether it was an in-born - you know, intrinsic, innate despair.
但他们仍然会感受到那种绝望，你知道，无论这是一种与生俱来的——你知道，内在的、与生俱来的绝望。
Also, just part of how the world was not a great place at this moment where - for - when - at - when they were that age, or maybe at this moment, the world is not a great place.
而且，这只是世界在此时此刻并不是一个伟大地方的一部分，在他们那个年纪的时候，或者也许在此时此刻，世界并不是一个伟大的地方。
And I think my experience with my own suicidal attempts and my experience with both Vincent and James and my experience with other people.
我认为我自己的自杀企图的经历，我与文森特和詹姆斯的经历以及我与其他人的经历。
I have friends who died from suicide.
我有朋友死于自杀。
They have all struggled for a long time.
他们都已经奋斗了很长时间了。
So when I said in the book, and I still say, I respect their decision, I respect their action, is a statement of not blaming them, not calling them selfish or feebleminded or emotional and knowing they have - they had - knowing they had done their best and yet tragedies sometimes happen.
因此，当我在书中说，我仍然说，我尊重他们的决定，我尊重他们的行动时，这是一种不责怪他们的声明，不称他们自私或弱智或情绪化，并且知道他们已经 - 他们已经 - 知道他们已经尽力而为，但悲剧有时会发生。
I remember I was doing this interview.
我记得我正在做这个采访。
This was after Vincent died.
这是文森特死后的事。
I was doing an interview with a psychiatrist from Los Angeles, and one question he kept asking was, are you angry with him?
我正在采访一位来自洛杉矶的精神科医生，他一直问的一个问题是，你对他生气吗？
And I said, no. And he said earlier in his practice, he lost a teenage patient to suicide.
我说，不。他说，在他的执业早期，他曾有一名青少年患者因自杀而丧生。
Thirty years later, he was - he still felt angry.
三十年过去了，他——他仍然感到愤怒。
And I don't think I feel that way about my children.
我想我对我的孩子们没有这种感觉。
GROSS: You write about how people would often just say the wrong thing, like, the completely wrong thing to you.
格罗斯：你写到人们常常会说错话，比如对你说完全错误的话。
My favorite, if you don't mind me calling my favorite a favorite, was the person who came to you with an unpublished book and said, I've written a book.
我最喜欢的人，如果你不介意我称我最喜欢的人为最喜欢的人，就是那个拿着一本未出版的书来找你并说，我写了一本书的人。
I've dedicated it to you.
我已经把它献给你了。
I would like you to read it and help me find an agent.
我希望您阅读它并帮助我找到代理人。
Like, you're kidding me.
就像，你在跟我开玩笑。
(LAUGHTER) LI: Yes, one has to keep an open mind to how people are often or always putting themselves in the center of a story.
（笑声） 李：是的，人们必须对人们如何经常或总是将自己置于故事的中心保持开放的态度。
And, I mean, this is also a total stranger.
而且，我的意思是，这也是一个完全陌生的人。
It's not a friend.
这不是朋友。
But also a friend also did that to me.
但也有一个朋友也这样对我。
So my thinking is - I have my hypothesis - is I think when you lost (ph) children, it was sort of an unfathomable disaster to people.
所以我的想法是 - 我有我的假设 - 我认为当你失去（ph）孩子时，这对人们来说是一场难以估量的灾难。
And I think sometimes people have this intuition sort of, instead of we, the parents, go into total denial.
我认为有时人们有这种直觉，而不是我们，父母，会完全否认。
I think some people would go into total denial so they could go on, you know, asking for favors or saying things that are, to me, just mind-boggling, right?
我认为有些人会完全否认，这样他们就可以继续寻求帮助或说出对我来说令人难以置信的事情，对吗？
GROSS: Yeah.
格罗斯：是的。
Well, we need to take another break here, so I'm going to reintroduce you.
好吧，我们需要在这里再休息一下，所以我要重新介绍一下你。
LI: Yeah.
李：是的。
GROSS: My guest is Yiyun Li.
格罗斯：我的客人是李依云。
Her new novel is called "Music Against The Night." Her Pulitzer Prize-winning memoir is called "Things In Nature Merely Grow." If you're having suicidal thoughts or a mental health crisis, there's someone you can talk with at the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.
她的新小说名叫《黑夜音乐》。她获得普利策奖的回忆录名为《自然界中的事物只会生长》。如果您有自杀念头或出现心理健康危机，您可以通过自杀和危机生命热线与某人交谈。
Just call or text 988.
只需拨打或发短信 988 即可。
We'll be right back.
我们马上回来。
This is FRESH AIR.
这是新鲜空气。
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC) GROSS: This is FRESH AIR.
（音乐原声） 格罗斯：这是新鲜空气。
Let's get back to my interview with Yiyun Li.
让我们回到我对李翊云的采访。
Her new novel is called "Music Against The Night." Her Pulitzer Prize-winning memoir, called "Things In Nature Merely Grow," is about the suicide of her teenage sons.
她的新小说名叫《黑夜音乐》。她获得普利策奖的回忆录《自然界中的事物只会生长》讲述了她十几岁儿子的自杀事件。
Part of our conversation is about suicide.
我们谈话的一部分是关于自杀的。
If you're having suicidal thoughts or a mental health crisis, there's someone you can talk with at the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.
如果您有自杀念头或出现心理健康危机，您可以通过自杀和危机生命热线与某人交谈。
Just call or text 988.
只需拨打或发短信 988 即可。
That's 988.
那是988。
I want to ask you about a question that your oldest son, Vincent, asked you when he was 10 years old.
我想问你一个你的大儿子文森特 10 岁时问过你的问题。
He said, you understand suffering so well.
他说，你太了解苦难了。
Why did you give birth to us?
你为何生下我们？
That must have left you speechless.
这一定让你无语了。
LI: Yes, I was speechless, and I was also - you know, I think any mother confronted by this question would think, did I, you know, make a mistake bringing these children to the world when the world is falling apart and burning down?
李：是的，我无言以对，而且我也——你知道，我想任何一个面对这个问题的母亲都会想，我，你知道，在世界分崩离析和烧毁的时候把这些孩子带到这个世界上是不是犯了一个错误？
I suppose there's no good answer to that.
我想对此没有什么好的答案。
And I still sometimes think about that question, and I still think, oh, I don't have an answer for you, Vincent.
有时我仍然会想到这个问题，我仍然想，哦，我没有答案给你，文森特。
GROSS: What did you - he said, you understand suffering so well.
格罗斯：你做了什么——他说，你太了解痛苦了。
What did you tell your children about your own attempt at suicide?
关于你自己的自杀企图，你对你的孩子说了些什么？
LI: Well, they certainly - they knew the fact.
李：嗯，他们当然知道这个事实。
But they also knew - and I think my then therapist had a good point is, I should not hide these things from them, but I should work to - I should work on getting better.
但他们也知道——我认为我当时的治疗师有一个很好的观点是，我不应该向他们隐瞒这些事情，但我应该努力——我应该努力变得更好。
So they would see that someone could come back from this deep depression and suffering and could still have joy in life.
所以他们会看到有人可以从这种深深的抑郁和痛苦中恢复过来，并且仍然可以享受生活的乐趣。
And I think that's exactly what I believed in.
我想这正是我所相信的。
So, I mean, after my suicidal crisis, you know, we went on living, traveling, doing things together, you know, working together, just as a way to say, yes, it's terrible to be in that much of pain, but it's also possible to live on.
所以，我的意思是，在我的自杀危机之后，你知道，我们继续生活，旅行，一起做事，你知道，一起工作，只是为了表达，是的，承受如此多的痛苦是可怕的，但也有可能继续生活。
GROSS: Is that what you meant when you said you can suffer better?
格罗斯：当你说你可以更好地受苦时，这就是你的意思吗？
LI: Yes.
李：是的。
And I realized that's one thing I did not teach James was, after Vincent died, we all suffered so greatly.
我意识到我没有教詹姆斯的一件事是，文森特去世后，我们都遭受了巨大的痛苦。
But James' death taught me to suffer better, is to say, I can do it, and I can live with my pain and sorrow without ever wanting to stop feeling the pain.
但詹姆斯的死教会了我更好地受苦，也就是说，我可以做到，我可以忍受我的痛苦和悲伤，而不想停止感受到痛苦。
And in a way, I think I said I would be capable and I would be OK living my life out in abyss, but still having fun and enjoying things and doing things and staying in touch with the world.
在某种程度上，我想我说过我有能力，也可以在深渊中过着自己的生活，但仍然享受乐趣，享受事物，做事，并与世界保持联系。
I think that's important.
我认为这很重要。
GROSS: Are you more resolved to live to keep their memories alive?
格罗斯：你是否更决心要活下去，让他们的记忆永存？
LI: Yes.
李：是的。
I - clearly you hear the hesitant - hesitancy in my answer.
我——显然你听到了我的回答中的犹豫——犹豫。
I would say someone put this to me, and I think it's a good point.
我想说有人把这个告诉我，我认为这是一个很好的观点。
And someone said this very wise thing to me, and said, you know, so long as you live, you keep the children's memory alive.
有人对我说了这句非常明智的话，他说，你知道，只要你活着，你就能让孩子们的记忆永存。
And not to keep them alive, because I don't believe, you know, you can keep people alive in your heart.
而不是让他们活着，因为我不相信，你知道，你能让人们在你心里活着。
But there will always be me and my husband thinking about them every day.
但我和我丈夫每天都会想起他们。
And I think I would say, yes, that might be one reason I feel more resolved suffering, with suffering, and also finding ways to go forward.
我想我会说，是的，这可能是我感到更能解决痛苦的原因之一，带着痛苦，也找到了前进的方法。
GROSS: As we talk about suicide, I don't want anyone to interpret what we're saying as a kind of encouragement of it.
格罗斯：当我们谈论自杀时，我不希望任何人将我们所说的解释为对自杀的鼓励。
Do you know what I mean?
你知道我的意思吗？
LI: Yeah.
李：是的。
Yes, yes, yes.
是的，是的，是的。
No. GROSS: And so can you speak to that, too?
格罗斯：那么你也能谈谈这个吗？
Because I feel real sense of responsibility to anyone listening who is having a mental health crisis or is living with such despair or, you know, physical or emotional pain that they are contemplating suicide.
因为我对任何正在倾听的人感到真正的责任感，他们患有心理健康危机，或者生活在绝望之中，或者，你知道，身体或情感上的痛苦正在考虑自杀。
And I do not want to be in a position where we're interpreted as encouraging that in any way.
我不想让我们被解读为以任何方式鼓励这一点。
I think you as a writer is examining every kind of crevice and fold of mental anguish.
我认为作为一名作家，你正在审视精神痛苦的每一种缝隙和褶皱。
But can you speak to my concern?
但你能谈谈我的担忧吗？
LI: Yes, yes.
李：是的，是的。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
GROSS: Right.
格罗斯：对。
LI: I think it's something to be aware of, is that despair.
李：我觉得有一点需要注意，那就是绝望。
It may not be always like that.
情况可能并不总是这样。
I mean, I say this from many - I say this from my own experience.
我的意思是，我是从很多人的角度这么说的——我是根据我自己的经历这么说的。
I think, for me, I think the most important thing is to stay engaged with the world both intellectually and physically.
我认为，对我来说，最重要的是在智力和身体上与世界保持联系。
You know, playing on the piano is one very concrete thing.
你知道，弹钢琴是一件非常具体的事情。
GROSS: I'm also thinking about someone who I interviewed who wrote a memoir about his suicide attempt, which he survived, and his suicidal ideation.
格罗斯：我还想到了我采访过的一个人，他写了一本回忆录，讲述了他的自杀未遂以及他的自杀意念。
And he said one advice he got from his therapist was, wait a few days.
他说他从治疗师那里得到的一个建议是，等几天。
Things may change.
事情可能会改变。
And they did.
他们做到了。
And he's glad that he waited because things did improve.
他很高兴自己等待了，因为情况确实有所改善。
LI: That's very good.
李：那很好。
I think I would say something along the same line, as I've come a long way in my life to know the importance of being patient.
我想我也会说同样的话，因为我在人生中走了很长一段路，才知道耐心的重要性。
Just be patient.
请耐心等待。
GROSS: Yeah.
格罗斯：是的。
OK, we need to take another break here.
好吧，我们需要在这里再休息一下。
LI: Yes.
李：是的。
GROSS: So I'm going to reintroduce you.
格罗斯：所以我要重新介绍你。
If you're just joining us, my guest is Yiyun Li.
如果你刚刚加入我们，我的嘉宾是李一云。
Her new novel is called "Music Against The Night." Her Pulitzer Prize-winning memoir is called "Things In Nature Merely Grow." If you're having suicidal thoughts or a mental health crisis, there's someone you can talk with at the suicide and crisis lifeline.
她的新小说名叫《黑夜音乐》。她获得普利策奖的回忆录名为《自然界中的事物只会生长》。如果您有自杀念头或出现心理健康危机，您可以通过自杀和危机生命线与某人交谈。
Just call or text 988.
只需拨打或发短信 988 即可。
We'll be right back.
我们马上回来。
This is FRESH AIR.
这是新鲜空气。
(SOUNDBITE OF JESSICA WILLIAMS' "THE CHILD WITHIN") GROSS: This is FRESH AIR.
（杰西卡·威廉姆斯的《THE CHILD Within》原声片段） 格罗斯：这是新鲜空气。
Let's get back to my interview with Pulitzer Prize.
让我们回到我对普利策奖的采访。
Her new novel is called "Music Against The Night." Her Pulitzer Prize-winning memoir is called "Things In Nature Merely Grow." It's about the suicide of her teenage sons.
她的新小说名叫《黑夜音乐》。她获得普利策奖的回忆录名为《自然界中的事物只会生长》。这是关于她十几岁的儿子的自杀。
Let's talk about growing up in China, because you didn't move to the U.S. until you went to - was it college or grad school?
让我们谈谈在中国长大的事情，因为你直到上大学或研究生院后才搬到美国。
LI: After college.
李：大学毕业后。
Grad school, yes.
研究生院，是的。
GROSS: It was grad school that brought you here to Iowa.
格罗斯：是研究生院把你带到爱荷华州的。
So did your parents grow up during the cultural revolution?
那么你的父母是在文化大革命期间长大的吗？
LI: Their youth were - I mean, no, they were already adults during the cultural revolution.
李：他们年轻的时候——我的意思是，不，他们在文化大革命期间就已经是成年人了。
So they were both born in the 1940s.
所以他们都是20世纪40年代出生的。
GROSS: So how did that change their lives?
格罗斯：那么这如何改变了他们的生活呢？
LI: They were lucky enough.
李：他们很幸运。
I think they were already in their 30s.
我认为他们已经30多岁了。
And the other thing is my father used to be a nuclear physicist.
另一件事是我父亲曾经是一名核物理学家。
So he worked for the nuclear weapon industry.
所以他为核武器工业工作。
GROSS: Oh, he did?
格罗斯：哦，他做到了？
Oh.
哦。
LI: Yes.
李：是的。
So we were protected by his status.
所以我们受到他的地位的保护。
So in a way, we live in this compound.
所以在某种程度上，我们住在这个大院里。
GROSS: You were protected by the weapon (laughter).
格罗斯：你受到了武器的保护（笑）。
LI: We were protected by the weapon.
李：我们受到武器的保护。
A perfect way to put it, yes.
一个完美的说法，是的。
Yeah, so we live on this compound.
是的，所以我们就住在这个大院里。
Everybody's father was either a nuclear physicist or a mathematician.
每个人的父亲要么是核物理学家，要么是数学家。
And so, in a way, we were sort of sheltered by this special situation.
因此，在某种程度上，我们受到了这种特殊情况的庇护。
GROSS: That's so weird that you felt sheltered because your father was working on nuclear weapons.
格罗斯：这太奇怪了，你觉得自己受到了庇护，因为你的父亲正在研究核武器。
When I was growing up in the '50s and '60s, I was terrified...
当我在 50 年代和 60 年代长大时，我很害怕......
LI: Oh.
李：哦。
GROSS: ...About the possibility of nuclear war because we'd come pretty close with Russia.
格罗斯：……关于核战争的可能性，因为我们与俄罗斯的关系非常接近。
LI: Right.
李：对。
GROSS: So were you afraid of the bomb?
格罗斯：那你害怕炸弹吗？
LI: Never (laughter).
李：从来没有（笑）。
For some reason, this is just so interesting, because I don't think I was afraid of that.
出于某种原因，这太有趣了，因为我认为我并不害怕这一点。
Or maybe I should put it this way.
或者也许我应该这样说。
I think when I was growing up, there were many more concrete harms done to children.
我认为在我成长的过程中，对孩子们造成了更多具体的伤害。
So the nuclear weapons were really too far away from our lives.
所以核武器离我们的生活实在是太遥远了。
GROSS: You spent a year in the army, the People's Liberation Army.
格罗斯：你在军队、中国人民解放军服役了一年。
Were women drafted?
女性被征召入伍吗？
LI: It was a special situation.
李：当时的情况比较特殊。
It was not - we were not drafted.
事实并非如此——我们没有被征召入伍。
We were going to enter college.
我们即将进入大学。
And this was right after 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre.
那是在 1989 年天安门广场大屠杀之后。
So students who went to my university, which is Peking University, because Peking University was quite active during the prodemocratic movement, the students entering the university would be sent to the military, to the army for a year of training.
那么去我的大学，北大的学生，因为北大在民运期间比较活跃，所以进大学的学生都会被送到军队，到军队去训练一年。
Mostly it's sort of a brainwashing experience.
大多数情况下，这是一种洗脑经历。
GROSS: How were you brainwashed?
格罗斯：你是怎么被洗脑的？
LI: We just learned - I mean, we went there in 1991, which was quite a striking time because Soviet Union just stopped being Soviet Union.
李：我们刚刚了解到——我的意思是，我们在1991年去了那里，那是一个相当惊人的时刻，因为苏联刚刚不再是苏联。
So we would just be reading a lot of politics and world affairs, all from the communist point of view.
因此，我们只是从共产主义的角度阅读大量政治和世界事务。
It didn't work.
它不起作用。
And also, I wasn't - it wasn't easy to brainwash me.
而且，我不是——给我洗脑并不容易。
I would say that.
我会这么说。
GROSS: Yeah, I get that impression.
格罗斯：是的，我有这样的印象。
It wouldn't have been easy.
这并不容易。
LI: (Laughter) Yeah.
李：（笑）是的。
GROSS: So what role were you expected to play as a woman in the army?
格罗斯：那么作为一名女性，你希望在军队中扮演什么角色？
LI: We did a lot of just physical training, you know, formation training and shooting.
李：我们做了很多体能训练，你知道，阵型训练和投篮。
And I was - it turned out I was a very good sharpshooter, which was so surprising because I was a peaceful, peaceful, peaceful - or I was - I hated, I hated everything about weapons.
我是——事实证明我是一个非常优秀的神枪手，这太令人惊讶了，因为我是一个和平、和平、和平的人——或者说我是——我讨厌，我讨厌有关武器的一切。
But I was quite good at that.
但我很擅长这一点。
The other thing I was quite good at, which was also - I did not take any pleasure or I did not feel proud of, was I was a good propaganda writer.
我非常擅长的另一件事，也是——我没有任何快乐或我没有感到自豪，是我是一名优秀的宣传作家。
GROSS: Oh, well, you're a good writer.
格罗斯：哦，好吧，你是个好作家。
What was the propaganda like?
宣传是怎样的？
LI: Well, the propaganda...
李：嗯，宣传...
GROSS: 'Cause your writing is so, like, honest and with the perfect word to describe everything.
格罗斯：因为你的写作是如此诚实，并且用完美的词来描述一切。
LI: Yes, but I was in the army.
李：是的，但我在部队。
And I remember my squad leader always assigned me to - we have weekly, you know, assignment to write some sort of propaganda, sort of army propagandas.
我记得我的班长总是指派我去——你知道，我们每周都有任务写某种宣传材料，某种军队宣传材料。
And I always got that assignment.
我总是接到这个任务。
And so I sort of protested, and I said, it's not fair.
所以我有点抗议，我说，这不公平。
It's always me writing this.
一直都是我在写这个。
You have to assign someone else.
你必须指派其他人。
And my squad leader said, no, you could do this, or you could go cleaning the pigsty or cleaning the toilet.
我班长说，不行，你可以这样做，或者你可以去打扫猪圈或者打扫厕所。
Which would you like to do?
你想做什么？
(LAUGHTER) LI: Off course, I wrote propagandas because I hated cleaning toilets.
（笑声） 李：当然，我写宣传材料是因为我讨厌打扫厕所。
GROSS: We've talked a lot about tragedy during this interview.
格罗斯：我们在这次采访中谈论了很多关于悲剧的话题。
What gives you the most pleasure now?
现在什么给你带来最大的快乐？
LI: Ah, yes.
李：啊，是的。
Gardening.
园艺。
I'm an amateur gardener, but I love gardening.
我是一名业余园丁，但我喜欢园艺。
So gardening gives me a lot of joy.
所以园艺给我带来了很多快乐。
And, you know, taking a walk with my husband.
而且，你知道，和我丈夫一起散步。
We call it our daily constitutional.
我们称其为日常宪法。
(LAUGHTER) LI: And then just talking with my friends in writing.
（笑声） 李：然后就是和我的朋友们写信讨论。
You know, I do want to make a point.
你知道，我确实想表达一个观点。
You know, I have experienced many sad things in life.
你知道，我一生经历过很多悲伤的事情。
But I always want to make a distinction.
但我总是想做出区分。
I am sad, but I'm not unhappy.
我很难过，但我并不不快乐。
And sometimes I think people forget sadness and unhappiness are two different things.
有时我认为人们忘记了悲伤和不快乐是两件不同的事情。
GROSS: What's the difference?
格罗斯：有什么区别？
LI: I think sadness - oftentimes people are afraid of sadness, as though it's something dark or heavy.
李：我认为悲伤——人们常常害怕悲伤，就好像它是一种黑暗或沉重的东西。
No, sadness is just part of life.
不，悲伤只是生活的一部分。
I think sadness is just an inevitable part of life.
我认为悲伤只是生活中不可避免的一部分。
And I'm fine living with my sadness.
我很乐意忍受悲伤。
And sadness does not mean you're sad all the time, where you cannot find joy or you cannot tell a joke.
悲伤并不意味着你一直悲伤，无法找到快乐，或者无法讲笑话。
But unhappiness, I think oftentimes there's this discontentment and there's this eagerness to change for another life.
但不快乐，我想很多时候都是有这种不满，有这种渴望改变另一种生活的渴望。
And that kind of unhappiness is not healthy, I suppose.
我想，这种不快乐是不健康的。
GROSS: Yiyun Li, thank you so much.
格罗斯：李翊云，非常感谢你。
I really appreciate what you had to say.
我真的很感激你所说的话。
LI: Thank you so much for having me.
李：非常感谢你邀请我。
GROSS: Yiyun Li's new novel is called "Music Against The Night." Her Pulitzer Prize-winning memoir is called "Things In Nature Merely Grow." (SOUNDBITE OF RICH HINMAN VS ADAM LEVY'S "MARABA BLUE") GROSS: Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, how the melting of polar ice has opened new sea routes and made the Arctic Ocean a new zone of superpower competition.
格罗斯：李翊云的新小说叫《夜音乐》。她获得普利策奖的回忆录名为《自然界中的事物只会生长》。 （RICH HINMAN VS ADAM LEVY 的《马拉巴蓝》原声片段） GROSS：明天，新鲜空气节目将讲述极地冰层的融化如何开辟新的海上航线，并使北冰洋成为超级大国竞争的新区域。
We'll talk with writer Rana Foroohar.
我们将与作家拉纳·福鲁哈尔（Rana Foroohar）交谈。
She got an up close look aboard a Coast Guard icebreaker.
她在海岸警卫队破冰船上近距离观察。
She says China has big ambitions and some advantages over the U.S. Her new book is called "Sea Change." I hope you'll join us.
她说，中国比美国有远大的抱负和一些优势。她的新书名叫《海变》。我希望你能加入我们。
FRESH AIR's executive producer is Sam Briger.
FRESH AIR 的执行制片人是 Sam Briger。
Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.
我们的技术总监和工程师是 Audrey Bentham。
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez-Wisler.
我们的采访和评论由 Phyllis Myers、Ann Marie Baldonado、Lauren Krenzel、Therese Madden、Monique Nazareth、Thea Chaloner、Susan Nyakundi、Anna Bauman 和 Nico Gonzalez-Wisler 制作和编辑。
Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper.
我们的数字媒体制作人是 Molly Seavy-Nesper。
Roberta Shorrock directs the show.
罗伯塔·肖罗克执导该剧。
Our co-host is Tonya Mosley.
我们的共同主持人是托尼娅·莫斯利。
I'm Terry Gross.
我是特里·格罗斯。
(SOUNDBITE OF RICH HINMAN VS ADAM LEVY'S "MARABA BLUE") Topics
（RICH HINMAN VS ADAM LEVY 的“MARABA BLUE”原声片段）