Aboard an icebreaker, a writer got a closer look at the Arctic's 'Sea Change'

Heard on Fresh Air As polar ice melts in the Arctic , shipping lanes are opening up , making the region a new zone of superpower competition.

在《新鲜空气》中听说随着北极极地冰层融化，航道正在开放，使该地区成为超级大国竞争的新区域。

Writer Rana Foroohar got an up-close look aboard the USCGC Healy, a Coast Guard icebreaker.

作家 Rana Foroohar 登上海岸警卫队破冰船 USCGC Healy 进行了近距离观察。

She says that traversing the North Pole by ship — once a "largely conceptual" route — is now becoming a "real possibility" for two or three weeks a year.

她说，乘船穿越北极——曾经是一条“很大程度上是概念性的”路线——现在正成为每年两到三周的“真正的可能性”。

"If you are taking one of these Arctic routes, you can save as much as 40% of the time it would take you to go from the Atlantic to the Pacific, and depending on the price of oil, that's a heck of a lot of money," she says.

“如果你选择其中一条北极航线，你可以节省多达 40% 的时间，从大西洋到太平洋，而且根据石油价格，这是一笔很大的钱，”她说。

"China and Russia together are clearly trying to make the top of the world an area over which they have the most interest."

“中国和俄罗斯显然正在共同努力使世界之巅成为他们最感兴趣的地区。”

In her new book, Sea Change: America's New Great Game in the Arctic Circle, Foroohar makes the case that the "High North" may become as critical to world shipping as the Suez or Panama canals .

福鲁哈尔在她的新书《海洋变化：美国在北极圈的新大博弈》中指出，“高北地区”可能会像苏伊士运河或巴拿马运河一样对世界航运至关重要。

But she also notes that beneath the Arctic waters are large deposits of oil, natural gas and rare earth minerals, as well as underwater cables , which carry a large part of the world's intercontinental information flow.

但她也指出，北极水域下方蕴藏着大量石油、天然气和稀土矿物，以及承载着世界洲际信息流很大一部分的水下电缆。

"Undersea cables have become a real touchstone in wars and conflicts around the world," she says.

“海底电缆已成为世界各地战争和冲突的真正试金石，”她说。

"So you are seeing a race to lay down new cable, and who can get there fastest, and then who can potentially commercialize and even militarize areas where those cables have been laid."

“因此，你会看到一场铺设新电缆的竞赛，谁能最快到达那里，然后谁有可能将这些电缆已铺设的地区商业化甚至军事化。”

Foroohar describes the Arctic Circle as one of the few areas of the globe where countries and companies can still "hunt" for territory and "duke it out potentially with rivals." And she predicts more conflict in the coming decades as the region continues to warm.

福罗哈尔将北极圈描述为全球少数几个国家和公司仍然可以“寻找”领土并“与竞争对手一决高下”的地区之一。她预计，随着该地区持续变暖，未来几十年将会发生更多冲突。

"There is going to be more commerce done through this area.

“将会有更多的商业活动通过这个地区进行。

There is gonna be greater military interest in the area, and all of that matters because it really is in America's backyard," she says.

该地区将会有更大的军事兴趣，所有这些都很重要，因为它确实是在美国的后院，”她说。

"I just think that everything in the High North is going to be higher priority for America in the future."

“我只是认为，未来高北地区的一切都将成为美国更优先考虑的事情。”

China and Russia together are clearly trying to make the top of the world an area over which they have the most interest.

中国和俄罗斯显然正在共同努力使世界之巅成为他们最感兴趣的地区。

And that's very interesting because it starts to dovetail with something that's happening in U.S. policy, which is more of a sense of we need to protect what's close to home.

这非常有趣，因为它开始与美国政策中正在发生的事情相吻合，这更多的是我们需要保护离家较近的东西。

And so if you look at things that way, then you have the U.S. and China coming into much closer geographic conflict.

因此，如果你这样看问题，那么美国和中国就会陷入更加密切的地理冲突。

Whether or not it would ever be a hot conflict, I hope not, but certainly competition in that area.

无论这是否会成为一场激烈的冲突，我希望不会，但肯定是该领域的竞争。

On the debate over rights to resources in international waters

关于国际水域资源权的争论

There's some debate over that.

对此存在一些争论。

There is something called the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea , which governs maritime activities, including those in the Arctic.

有一个叫做《联合国海洋法公约》的公约，它管辖海上活动，包括北极地区的活动。

It has ...

它有...

rules about where you can mine, how you can mine, who gets what.

关于你可以在哪里开采、如何开采以及谁得到什么的规则。

But the U.S. never signed on to that convention.

但美国从未签署该公约。

Various presidents from Clinton to Bush [to] Obama did support it, but key Republican senators opposed it, basically on ideological grounds, the notion that no international body should have sovereign right over what the U.S. does.

从克林顿到布什到奥巴马，多位总统都支持它，但主要的共和党参议员反对它，基本上是出于意识形态的原因，即任何国际机构都不应该对美国的行为拥有主权。

...

...

And so it makes it much more of a free-for-all as to who gets what in the Arctic.

因此，这使得北极地区的竞争变得更加自由。

And then you throw in the fact that Russians and Chinese don't always play by the U.N.

然后你再说一个事实，俄罗斯人和中国人并不总是遵守联合国的规定。

rules either.

规则也可以。

On how Arctic power struggles are part of a larger global trend

关于北极权力斗争如何成为更大的全球趋势的一部分

It's kind of part and parcel of a bigger collapse of international rule and a pendulum shift from globalization to something that is much more about regionalization and spheres of power ...

这是国际规则更大崩溃和钟摆从全球化转向区域化和权力领域的重要组成部分......

and influence, which is exactly what's happening in the Arctic, which to me is so interesting, not only just for itself, but because it's a mirror into what's happening in other parts of the world.

和影响力，这正是北极正在发生的事情，对我来说非常有趣，不仅因为它本身，而且因为它是世界其他地区正在发生的事情的一面镜子。

Some of the same conflicts over territory and mineral rights and ports that you see in the Arctic now are also happening in Latin America or West Africa or parts of the South China Sea.

现在在北极看到的一些关于领土、矿权和港口的冲突也发生在拉丁美洲、西非或南中国海的部分地区。

So it's a bit of a bellwether for geostrategy more broadly.

因此，它可以说是更广泛的地缘战略的风向标。

…

……

And then there's this — kind of largely theoretical up until now, but becoming more realistic — trans-polar route where right now it might be a couple of weeks that you could consider going right across the pole, but if global warming continues the way it seems to be going in the next decade or two, that could turn into a month, two months, three months.

然后是这种——到目前为止主要是理论上的，但变得更加现实——跨极地路线，现在你可能需要几周的时间才能考虑直接穿越极地，但如果全球变暖在未来一两年内继续下去，这可能会变成一个月、两个月、三个月。

And so who's going to control that area?

那么谁将控制该地区呢？

This is what's up for stake now.

这就是现在的赌注。

On what it's like to be onboard an Arctic icebreaker

关于登上北极破冰船的感觉

You begin to feel and hear the ice as it is being broken by the ship.

当冰被船打破时，你开始感觉到并听到冰。

And I remember being down on the mess hall, which is a couple floors down from the waterline, and I was sitting eating my lunch and you begin to hear this shhhhhh kind of sound, like something traveling through sound, and then it becomes squeaky, like fingers on chalkboard, and you can kind of feel vibration and it gets louder and louder and you're like, "Wow, there are only 12 inches of reinforced steel between me and death." That's very sobering.

我记得在距离水线几层楼的食堂里，我坐着吃午饭，你开始听到这种“嘘”的声音，就像有什么东西在声音中传播，然后它变得吱吱作响，就像手指在黑板上一样，你可以感觉到振动，它变得越来越大，你会想，“哇，我和死亡之间只有 12 英寸的钢筋。”这非常发人深省。

I actually touched base with some of those scientists several months after we had come off of the Healy, and they were starting to go through that data and look at it.

实际上，在我们离开希利号几个月后，我就与其中一些科学家取得了联系，他们开始仔细检查这些数据并进行研究。

And there is some real scientific data showing that these areas are changing.

并且有一些真实的科学数据表明这些领域正在发生变化。

They are warming.

他们正在变暖。

They are becoming different than they have been in the past.

他们正在变得与过去不同。

And that affects all kinds of things.

这会影响到各种各样的事情。

It affects the kind of fish that could live there.

它会影响那里生活的鱼类种类。

It affects wind and wave patterns that you might get, which could in turn affect things like the Canadian boreal forest fires that I experience in my home in Brooklyn, New York.

它会影响你可能遇到的风和波浪模式，这反过来又可能影响我在纽约布鲁克林家中经历的加拿大北方森林火灾。

You would think that has nothing to do with the Arctic, but it actually has everything to do with what's happening in the High North.

你可能会认为这与北极无关，但实际上它与高北地区发生的事情有关。

Therese Madden and Susan Nyakundi produced and edited this interview for broadcast.

Therese Madden 和 Susan Nyakundi 制作并编辑了本次采访并进行广播。

Bridget Bentz, Molly Seavy-Nesper and Beth Novey adapted it for the web.

Bridget Bentz、Molly Seavy-Nesper 和 Beth Novey 将其改编为网络版。

: [POST-BROADCAST CORRECTION Oct.

：[10 月 10 日播出后修正

16, 2026: The audio of this story incorrectly states that the Coast Guard is part of the Commerce Department.

2026 年 1 月 16 日：这个故事的音频错误地指出海岸警卫队是商务部的一部分。

In fact, the Coast Guard is part of the Department of Homeland Security (during peacetime).

事实上，海岸警卫队是国土安全部的一部分（和平时期）。

Additionally, in this story, we incorrectly refer to the Coast Guard Cutter Healy as the USS Healy.

此外，在这个故事中，我们错误地将海岸警卫队希利号巡逻艇称为希利号航空母舰。

The correct designation is the USCGC Healy.] DAVE DAVIES, HOST: This is FRESH AIR.

正确的名称是 USCGC Healy。] 主持人戴夫·戴维斯：这是新鲜空气。

I'm Dave Davies.

我是戴夫·戴维斯。

If I ask you to picture the North Pole, what comes to mind?

如果我让你想象北极，你会想到什么？

Maybe Santa and his elves.

也许圣诞老人和他的小精灵们。

Maybe a vast frozen expanse with a pole of some kind marking the very top of the world.

也许是一片巨大的冰冻区域，有一根类似的杆子标记着世界的最顶端。

Well, our guest today, Rana Foroohar, says you should be thinking about a navigable ocean, and we all should be thinking about it a lot more than we used to.

好吧，我们今天的客人，拉纳·福鲁哈尔（Rana Foroohar）说，你应该考虑一个可通航的海洋，我们都应该比以前更多地考虑它。

Climate change is melting the polar ice and opening up new shipping routes across the Arctic, which means that the region is increasingly becoming a zone for great power, competition and potentially conflict.

气候变化正在融化极地冰层，开辟穿越北极的新航线，这意味着该地区日益成为大国、竞争和潜在冲突的地区。

It turns out that a shipping route across the Arctic is a time- and money-saving shortcut for a lot of international commerce.

事实证明，对于许多国际贸易来说，穿越北极的航线是一条既省时又省钱的捷径。

Foroohar notes that 90% of global trade moves through ships, and the Arctic may well become as critical an avenue for world shipping as the Suez or Panama Canals.

Foroohar 指出，90% 的全球贸易通过船舶进行，北极很可能成为像苏伊士运河或巴拿马运河一样重要的世界航运通道。

Beyond that, beneath the Arctic waters are large deposits of oil, natural gas and rare-earth minerals, as well as underwater cables, which carry 95% of the world's intercontinental information flow.

除此之外，北极水域下方还蕴藏着大量石油、天然气和稀土矿藏，以及承载着世界95%洲际信息流的水下电缆。

So China and Russia are increasing their maritime presence in the Arctic.

因此，中国和俄罗斯正在增加在北极的海上存在。

And Foroohar writes that while the United States wants to get in the game, it's way behind China in the number of vessels it builds and especially in icebreakers, critical to navigating the Arctic.

福鲁哈尔写道，虽然美国希望加入这场游戏，但在建造船只数量方面远远落后于中国，尤其是对北极航行至关重要的破冰船。

In researching her book, Foroohar got to embed on what, at the time, was the United States' only Arctic icebreaking ship - the USS Healy.

在研究她的书时，福鲁哈尔将当时美国唯一的北极破冰船——希利号航空母舰嵌入其中。

She writes that if the United States is to hold its own in the growing competition with China, it will need to aggressively revive its shipbuilding industry.

她写道，如果美国想在与中国日益激烈的竞争中保持自己的地位，就需要积极振兴其造船业。

Rana Foroohar is a global business columnist and associate editor at the Financial Times and CNN's global economic analyst.

拉纳·福鲁哈尔 (Rana Foroohar) 是《金融时报》和 CNN 全球经济分析师的全球商业专栏作家和副主编。

She's the author of three previous books.

她是之前三本书的作者。

Her latest is "Sea Change: America's New Great Game In The Arctic Circle." Rana Foroohar, welcome to FRESH AIR.

她的最新作品是“大海的变化：美国在北极圈的新伟大游戏”。 Rana Foroohar，欢迎来到新鲜空气。

RANA FOROOHAR: Oh, thank you, Dave.

RANA FOROOHAR： 哦，谢谢你，戴夫。

Thanks for having me.

谢谢你有我。

DAVIES: You know, a lot of books begin with a compelling quote or an anecdote.

戴维斯：你知道，很多书都是以引人入胜的引言或轶事开始的。

Yours begins with a map, which I confess was startling to me.

你的开始是一张地图，我承认这张地图让我吃惊。

It's the same old planet Earth, but different.

这是同一个古老的星球地球，但有所不同。

I'd like you to just briefly describe this map and the story it tells.

我想让你简单描述一下这张地图和它讲述的故事。

FOROOHAR: Yeah.

福鲁哈尔：是的。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

Well, you know, when I went on the U.S. Coast Guard Cutter Healy, one of the very first things I noticed was that every single map on the vessel looks at the world from the top down.

嗯，你知道，当我登上美国海岸警卫队希利号快艇时，我注意到的第一件事就是船上的每张地图都是从上到下观察世界的。

So you see the North Pole in the center, and then you're looking outward at the Arctic Circle.

所以你看到北极在中心，然后你向外看北极圈。

And let me tell you - when you look at the world that way, it looks very different.

让我告诉你——当你以这种方式看待世界时，它看起来非常不同。

One of the things that you notice right away is that Russia takes up more than half of the space on the map.

您立即注意到的一件事是俄罗斯占据了地图上一半以上的空间。

It is enormous.

这是巨大的。

It is the dominant geographic power, one might say, in the Arctic.

有人可能会说，它是北极地区的主导地理力量。

Canada is big.

加拿大很大。

Greenland is a lot bigger and more important than you might think.

格陵兰岛比您想象的更大、更重要。

And the U.S. actually looks pretty small.

美国实际上看起来很小。

You know, Alaska is a big state.

要知道，阿拉斯加是一个大州。

But when you compare it to what else is up there, it kind of dims by comparison.

但当你将它与上面的其他东西进行比较时，它就会显得黯淡无光。

And if you look a little further down, you begin to realize Japan's pretty close.

如果你再往下看一点，你就会开始意识到日本已经非常接近了。

China's not as far away as you might think.

中国并不像你想象的那么遥远。

So we know that maps often portray great powers in the way that great powers would like to be portrayed, and there's all kinds of stories about maps being redone and resized to account for that.

所以我们知道，地图通常以大国希望的方式来描绘大国，并且有各种各样的故事称地图被重做和调整大小以解决这一问题。

But looking at the world from the top down just gives you a totally different sense of what matters, which country matters and what's navigable.

但从上到下看世界只会让你对什么是重要的、哪个国家重要以及什么是可通航的有一种完全不同的感觉。

DAVIES: Right.

戴维斯：对。

And you can focus on this emerging area of competition and get its context a lot better.

您可以专注于这个新兴的竞争领域并更好地了解其背景。

Let's begin with what exactly has changed in the Arctic Circle.

让我们从北极圈到底发生了什么变化开始。

I mean, we all have heard about global warming and polar ice melting.

我的意思是，我们都听说过全球变暖和极地冰融化。

How much of it is navigable now and for how much of the year?

现在有多少区域可以通航，一年中有多少时间可以通航？

FOROOHAR: So it's a really great question.

FOROOHAR：这是一个非常好的问题。

Nobody, including me, quite frankly, really cared too much about the Arctic until recently.

坦率地说，包括我在内，直到最近才真正关心北极。

And that's because it was mostly frozen solid for most of the year.

那是因为一年中的大部分时间它都被冻结成固体。

You know, obviously, you have areas around Canada, around Russia, that you can get through with icebreakers, which are specially designed ships.

你知道，显然，加拿大周围、俄罗斯周围有一些地区，你可以使用破冰船穿过这些地区，这些破冰船是专门设计的船只。

They have special steel-reinforced hulls that can break through ice.

它们有特殊的钢制船体，可以破冰。

But generally, if you're talking about going across the North Pole, that has been largely conceptual until quite recently.

但总的来说，如果你谈论的是穿越北极，直到最近这在很大程度上还只是概念性的。

But we are getting to a point with polar ice melting where even a transpolar route is becoming a real possibility for two to three weeks a year.

但随着极地冰层融化，我们已经达到了这样的程度：即使是跨极地航线，每年也有两到三周的时间成为现实。

The rest of the ways that you get across the Arctic - there's two very real other routes.

穿越北极的其他方式 - 还有两条非常真实的其他路线。

The Northern Sea Route, which is largely controlled by Russia, which is claiming a lot of that route now as its own territorial waters, and the Northwest Passage, which goes through U.S. and Canadian waters.

北海航线主要由俄罗斯控制，俄罗斯现在声称该航线的大部分地区为自己的领海，而西北航道则穿过美国和加拿大水域。

And you can get through those areas for months at a time.

你可以一次花几个月的时间穿过这些区域。

Now, it's slower going than, say, trying to go through the Panama Canal or the Suez Canal.

现在，它的速度比试图穿过巴拿马运河或苏伊士运河要慢。

But as some of those other waterways become choke points - the Panama Canal, because of water shortage, actually, in the region, is becoming less navigable for different parts of the year.

但随着其他一些水道成为阻塞点——巴拿马运河实际上由于缺水，在该地区在一年中的不同时间段变得越来越不通航。

The Suez has been the subject of Houthi terrorism.

苏伊士运河一直是胡塞武装恐怖主义的目标。

And of course, the Strait of Hormuz has now become the world's biggest global choke point with the war in Iran.

当然，随着伊朗战争，霍尔木兹海峡现在已成为世界上最大的全球咽喉要道。

So the Arctic is becoming an area that countries and companies are looking at and thinking, wow.

因此，北极正在成为各国和公司关注和思考的地区，哇。

Let's try shipping more this way.

让我们尝试用这种方式运送更多。

And I can tell you that the Chinese and Russians are already doing quite a lot of that.

我可以告诉你，中国人和俄罗斯人已经做了很多这样的事情。

DAVIES: Right.

戴维斯：对。

And it's interesting.

这很有趣。

You can just see if you look at this map - if you wanted to get from the northern Pacific - you know, from China, Korea, you know, Seattle or whatever - you could just go through the Bering Strait past Alaska.

如果你看一下这张地图，你就可以看到 - 如果你想从北太平洋 - 你知道，从中国、韩国、西雅图或其他地方 - 你可以穿过白令海峡经过阿拉斯加。

And if you could cut right across the Arctic, in no time you're sailing past Greenland, and you're in the North Atlantic.

如果你能直接穿越北极，那么你很快就会驶过格陵兰岛，然后到达北大西洋。

So you can get to...

这样你就可以到达...

FOROOHAR: Right.

福鲁哈尔： 是的。

DAVIES: ...Europe or the East Coast.

戴维斯：……欧洲或东海岸。

So potentially saving billions, trillions of dollars, I guess, in the aggregate, right?

我想，总共可能节省数十亿、数万亿美元，对吗？

FOROOHAR: Right.

福鲁哈尔： 是的。

I mean, in general, if you are taking one of these Arctic routes, you can save as much as 40% of the time it would take you to go from the Atlantic to the Pacific.

我的意思是，一般来说，如果您选择其中一条北极航线，您可以节省多达 40% 的从大西洋到太平洋的时间。

And depending on the price of oil, that's a heck of a lot of money.

根据石油价格，这是一笔很大的钱。

It's also about safety, increasingly.

这也越来越与安全有关。

You know, with other routes being subject to terror or climate change, this is becoming a very, very real passage.

你知道，随着其他路线受到恐怖或气候变化的影响，这条路线正在成为一条非常非常真实的通道。

And exponentially more Russian natural gas and Chinese trade is being done through this area than it was even just a couple of years ago.

与几年前相比，通过该地区进行的俄罗斯天然气和中国贸易量呈指数级增长。

DAVIES: And we should note, at least in passing, potentially really valuable deposits of energy and rare-earth minerals.

戴维斯：我们应该至少顺便指出一下，潜在的真正有价值的能源和稀土矿藏。

FOROOHAR: Yep.

福鲁哈尔：是的。

For sure.

一定。

DAVIES: Way down under the water, though, right?

戴维斯：不过，在水下，对吧？

FOROOHAR: Way down under the water.

FOROOHAR：在水下很深的地方。

And that gets again to the fact that, you know, people have known for some time that there were natural resources in this area.

这又回到了一个事实，你知道，人们早就知道这个地区有自然资源。

But just as - you know, it's difficult to, say, drill for natural gas in Siberia.

但正如你知道的那样，在西伯利亚钻探天然气是很困难的。

It's very expensive.

它非常昂贵。

It's - you know, it's impractical.

这是——你知道，这是不切实际的。

It really wasn't a practical option until recently.

直到最近这才真正成为一个实用的选择。

But now, with climate change happening so much more quickly and, frankly, the race for things like rare-earth minerals becoming much more of an issue - China actually has ring-fenced quite a lot of the rare-earth minerals around the world - the Arctic Circle is one of the few areas - the High North, as it's also known, is one of the few areas where countries and companies can still go hunt for these things and have a chance of getting them and, you know, duke it out potentially with rivals.

但现在，随着气候变化发生得如此之快，坦率地说，对稀土矿等物品的争夺变得更加成为一个问题——中国实际上已经在世界各地围起了相当多的稀土矿——北极圈是为数不多的几个地区之一——高北地区，众所周知，是少数几个国家和公司仍然可以寻找这些东西并有机会获得它们的地区之一，你知道，有可能与竞争对手一决高下。

DAVIES: We are speaking with Rana Foroohar.

戴维斯：我们正在与拉纳·福鲁哈尔交谈。

She's a global business columnist at the Financial Times.

她是《金融时报》的全球商业专栏作家。

Her new book is "Sea Change: America's New Great Game In The Arctic Circle." We'll continue our conversation in just a moment.

她的新书是《海变：美国在北极圈的新大游戏》。我们稍后将继续我们的谈话。

This is FRESH AIR.

这是新鲜空气。

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC) DAVIES: This is FRESH AIR, and our guest is Financial Times columnist Rana Foroohar.

（音乐原声） 戴维斯：这里是新鲜空气，我们的嘉宾是《金融时报》专栏作家拉纳·福鲁哈尔 (Rana Foroohar)。

Her new book is a look at how melting of the polar ice has created new shipping lanes in the Arctic Ocean.

她的新书探讨了极地冰层融化如何在北冰洋创造了新的航道。

Her book is "Sea Change: America's New Great Game In The Arctic Circle." Well, you did a lot of research for this book about maritime competition and economics and other issues.

她的书是《海变：美国在北极圈的新大游戏》。嗯，您为这本书做了很多关于海上竞争、经济和其他问题的研究。

But you also had this experience of embedding on this Coast Guard icebreaker, the Healy, which was a pretty remarkable experience.

但你也有过嵌入海岸警卫队希利号破冰船的经历，这是一次非常了不起的经历。

And I wondered - yeah.

我想知道 - 是的。

Read a little passage from the book just about what it looked like up there?

阅读书中的一小段内容，了解上面的情况？

FOROOHAR: Yeah.

福鲁哈尔：是的。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

I'll read from the introduction.

我将从介绍中阅读。

(Reading) The water all around us, stretching as far as an eye or a telescope can see, is gray - slate-gray, light-gray, gray-blue, gray-green, gray speckled with white, steel-gray - but always a color that reflects the utter lack of warmth below.

（读）我们周围的水，一直延伸到眼睛或望远镜所能看到的地方，都是灰色的——石板灰色、浅灰色、灰蓝色、灰绿色、灰色中点缀着白色、钢灰色——但总是反映出下面完全缺乏温暖的颜色。

The sun this far north can be surprisingly bright, leaving a streak of neon yellow on the water.

如此遥远的北方，阳光出奇地明亮，在水面上留下一道霓虹黄色的条纹。

But it never really changes the color of the sea itself.

但它永远不会真正改变大海本身的颜色。

The ocean is vast and alive, roiling with waves and wind and motion.

海洋广阔而生机勃勃，波浪、风和运动翻腾。

Even when the sea is calm, it is alive with movement.

即使大海风平浪静，也充满了活力。

It's a picture you can stare at for minutes - hours, even - and never get bored because you're never seeing the same thing twice.

这是一张你可以盯着看几分钟甚至几个小时的图片，而且永远不会感到无聊，因为你永远不会看到同样的东西两次。

Looking out at the mesmerizing gray churn that turns into a pattern if you stare at it long enough, I remember a book I once read about ancient Polynesian sailors.

看着令人着迷的灰色搅动，如果你凝视它足够长的时间，它会变成一种图案，我记得我曾经读过一本关于古代波利尼西亚水手的书。

They were able to navigate across thousands of miles with no scientific equipment, no maps, sometimes not even the stars, by simply feeling the currents from the bottom of their canoes.

他们能够在没有科学设备、没有地图、有时甚至没有星星的情况下，通过简单地感受独木舟底部的水流来航行数千英里。

We've come a long way since then with maritime technology, but in other ways, not so far.

从那时起，我们在航海技术方面取得了长足的进步，但在其他方面却还没有取得进展。

The sea is still an undiscovered country whose mysteries we are only just beginning to understand.

海洋仍然是一个未被发现的国度，我们才刚刚开始了解它的奥秘。

This is especially true here in the Arctic Ocean, the least explored water on Earth.

在地球上开发最少的水域北冰洋尤其如此。

DAVIES: Remarkable experience, wasn't it, being on that ship?

戴维斯：在那艘船上的经历非同寻常，不是吗？

FOROOHAR: Oh, boy.

FOROOHAR：噢，孩子。

God, yeah (laughter).

天哪，是的（笑声）。

Well, you know how you hear Native peoples have, you know, 40 words for snow?

嗯，你知道原住民有 40 个单词来形容雪吗？

DAVIES: Yeah.

戴维斯：是的。

FOROOHAR: I now have 40 words for cold.

FOROOHAR：我现在有 40 个单词来形容寒冷。

(LAUGHTER) FOROOHAR: Because I boarded the Healy - the Healy's actually docked, generally docked in Seattle.

（笑声） FOROOHAR：因为我登上了希利号——希利号实际上停靠在西雅图，通常停靠在西雅图。

That's the home port.

那是母港。

But I got on board the ship in Nome, Alaska.

但我在阿拉斯加诺姆登上了这艘船。

The crew had come back down from a tour that they had already taken and picked up me and some scientists - climate scientists - in Nome, Alaska.

船员们已经结束了一次旅行回来，并在阿拉斯加诺姆接了我和一些科学家——气候科学家。

And I thought Nome was pretty cold.

我觉得诺姆很冷。

But by the time you travel up through the Bering Strait, through the Chukchi Sea, into the Beaufort Sea and, you know, pretty close to the top of the world, you begin to realize what cold really is.

但当你穿过白令海峡，穿过楚科奇海，进入波弗特海，你知道，非常接近世界之巅时，你开始意识到寒冷到底是什么。

And it's very, very beautiful.

它非常非常美丽。

I have been lucky enough, as a foreign correspondent and a reporter for over 30 years, to go to a lot of unique places.

作为驻外记者和记者30多年来，我很幸运，去过很多独特的地方。

You know, I've been in markets in Nigeria, and I've been in the Himalayas.

你知道，我去过尼日利亚的市场，也去过喜马拉雅山。

But Alaska and the parts of the world that the Healy traverses in the High North are some of the most remote and really geographically unique parts of the world.

但阿拉斯加和希利号在高北地区穿越的部分地区是世界上最偏远且地理上最独特的地区。

And the Healy was singular.

希利是独一无二的。

You know, when I was onboard the ship, it was the only icebreaker in the Arctic Circle for the U.S. And so if there's a problem - man, you're on your own up there.

你知道，当我登上这艘船时，它是美国在北极圈内唯一的破冰船。所以，如果出现问题，伙计，你就得靠自己了。

It's really something.

真的是很了不起。

It's very sobering.

这非常发人深省。

The first time that we actually got into the ice - 'cause we sailed for some time, and we'd see either no ice or patches of ice, which was actually kind of concerning to some of the climate scientists that were onboard.

我们第一次真正进入冰层——因为我们航行了一段时间，我们要么没有看到冰，要么看到冰块，这实际上让船上的一些气候科学家感到担忧。

But eventually, we got into ice.

但最终，我们陷入了冰雪之中。

And you began to feel and hear the ice as it is being broken by the ship.

你开始感觉到并听到冰被船打破的声音。

And I remember being down on the mess hall, which is a couple floors down from the waterline.

我记得当时在食堂里，距离水线有几层楼。

And I was sitting eating my lunch.

我正坐着吃午饭。

And you began to hear this (imitating ice scraping) kind of sound.

然后你开始听到这种（模仿冰刮擦的）声音。

And then it becomes squeaky, like fingers on chalkboard, and you can kind of feel vibration.

然后它变得吱吱作响，就像手指在黑板上一样，你可以感觉到振动。

And it gets louder and louder, and you're like, wow.

它变得越来越响亮，你会觉得，哇。

There are only 12 inches of reinforced steel between me and death (laughter).

我和死亡之间只有12英寸的钢筋（笑）。

And that's very sobering.

这非常发人深省。

DAVIES: Right.

戴维斯：对。

It was remarkable.

这是非常了不起的。

And you talked about being with one of these sailors, a woman who was at the forward lookout post where she would sort of guide the ship through these different patterns of ice.

你谈到了和其中一位水手在一起，她是一名在前哨岗哨的女士，她会引导船穿过这些不同的冰层。

Did you see wildlife out there?

你看到外面的野生动物了吗？

FOROOHAR: We did.

FOROOHAR：我们做到了。

I mean, one of the most amazing things was seeing a huge herd of walruses swim up to the boat at one point, and it was incredible because they're big.

我的意思是，最令人惊奇的事情之一就是看到一大群海象一度游到船上，这令人难以置信，因为它们很大。

I mean, their tusks alone looked about 2 feet long.

我的意思是，仅它们的象牙看起来就有约 2 英尺长。

And, you know, they just swim right up.

而且，你知道，它们会直接游上来。

They're so curious.

他们很好奇。

And there were maybe 20 of them, and they're just playfully going around the ship.

他们大概有 20 个人，他们只是在船上顽皮地走来走去。

And the captain, Michele Schallip, told me that one of the things she loved most about being on this boat and, you know, being in the Arctic in general was seeing the wildlife.

船长米歇尔·沙利普 (Michele Schallip) 告诉我，她最喜欢在这艘船上的事情之一，你知道，在北极，她最喜欢的事情之一就是看到野生动物。

People will report seeing polar bears.

人们会报告看到北极熊。

I saw any number of whales, dolphins, porpoises.

我看到了很多鲸鱼、海豚、鼠海豚。

And the ice itself is so different.

而冰本身又是如此不同。

I mean, sometimes it looks kind of like a patchwork quilt.

我的意思是，有时它看起来有点像拼布被子。

Other times, it's much more solid.

其他时候，它更加坚固。

And you - if you're breaking through it, it's really kind of more art than science.

而你——如果你正在突破它，那它确实更像是艺术而不是科学。

You know, you have to look, and you have to find what are called seams - kind of openings in the ice - that you can glide the boat onto so that it can kind of find that and then push it apart.

你知道，你必须看，你必须找到所谓的接缝——冰上的一种开口——你可以把船滑到上面，这样它就能找到它，然后把它推开。

There's also the possibility, when you get into solid ice, of the boat actually going up on top of the ice and then using its entire weight to kind of break the ice, heavy ice.

还有一种可能性，当你进入固体冰时，船实际上会上升到冰的顶部，然后利用它的全部重量来打破冰，重冰。

And the Healy can actually go through, you know, multiple feet of ice.

希利号实际上可以穿过数英尺厚的冰层。

DAVIES: Did you experience that?

戴维斯：你有过这样的经历吗？

FOROOHAR: We did not get to that kind of level of ice, which, again, was - you know, part of the mission that we were there to investigate was climate science.

FOROOHAR：我们没有达到那种冰层水平，这也是——你知道的，我们在那里调查的任务的一部分是气候科学。

And there were several climate scientists who had waited for years to get onto this vessel to do their work.

有几位气候科学家已经等待了多年才能登上这艘船开展工作。

And one of the things that they were measuring was ice levels, salinity, temperature, plankton, all of which is giving you information about the health of the water.

他们测量的内容之一是冰层、盐度、温度、浮游生物，所有这些都可以为您提供有关水体健康状况的信息。

And I actually touched base with some of those scientists several months after we had come off of the Healy, and they were starting to go through that data and look at it.

实际上，在我们离开希利号几个月后，我就与其中一些科学家取得了联系，他们开始检查这些数据并进行研究。

And there is some real scientific data showing that these areas are changing.

并且有一些真实的科学数据表明这些领域正在发生变化。

They are warming.

他们正在变暖。

They are becoming different than they have been in the past.

他们正在变得与过去不同。

And that affects all kinds of things.

这会影响到各种各样的事情。

It affects the kind of fish that could live there.

它会影响那里生活的鱼类种类。

It affects the wind and wave patterns that you might get, which could in turn affect things like the Canadian boreal forest fires that, you know, I experience in my home in Brooklyn, New York.

它会影响你可能遇到的风和波浪模式，这反过来又可能影响加拿大北方森林火灾，你知道，我在纽约布鲁克林的家中经历过这种情况。

You would think that has nothing to do with the Arctic, but it actually has everything to do with what's happening in the High North.

你可能会认为这与北极无关，但实际上它与高北地区发生的事情有关。

DAVIES: The icebreaker that you were on, the USS Healy, was a Coast Guard vessel.

戴维斯：你所在的破冰船希利号是一艘海岸警卫队船只。

It's not part of the Navy.

它不属于海军。

The Coast Guard is part of the Commerce Department.

海岸警卫队隶属于商务部。

Their job is not to wage war, but to rescue folks at sea who are in trouble and also to protect U.S. shipping.

他们的工作不是发动战争，而是拯救海上陷入困境的人们，并保护美国航运。

And the work it was doing here - a lot of it was research.

它在这里所做的工作——很多都是研究。

There was environmental research and also mapping of the ocean floor.

有环境研究和海底测绘。

You know, you said earlier that this was the least explored water on Earth.

你知道，你之前说过这是地球上探索最少的水。

And it was interesting that even the Northwest Passage, which is this route that closely hews to Canada across the Arctic, was not fully mapped.

有趣的是，即使是西北航道，这条横跨北极与加拿大紧密相连的路线，也没有完全绘制出来。

What does that mean?

这意味着什么？

What were they looking for?

他们在寻找什么？

What did they discover?

他们发现了什么？

FOROOHAR: Yeah.

福鲁哈尔：是的。

This was one of the most surprising things to me.

这是令我最惊讶的事情之一。

So every second that we were onboard the ship, it was mapping the seabed floor.

因此，我们在船上的每一秒都在绘制海底地图。

And that was being done by a separate team of scientists who actually were...

这是由一个独立的科学家团队完成的，他们实际上是……

DAVIES: Gauging the depth and putting that on a map?

戴维斯：测量深度并将其放在地图上？

Is that what they were doing?

他们就是这么做的吗？

FOROOHAR: Depth, yes, but also more - you know, very specific information about what is actually on the seabed floor.

FOROOHAR：深度，是的，但还有更多 - 你知道，关于海底实际情况的非常具体的信息。

You know, you can map with satellite technology.

你知道，你可以利用卫星技术绘制地图。

But that will not give you a sense of every single detail of what might be on the seabed floor.

但这并不能让您了解海底可能存在的每一个细节。

And that detailed mapping matters because that's how you see something which we did, in fact, discover while I was onboard the ship - an underwater volcano that had methane coming from its plume.

详细的地图很重要，因为这就是你看到我们在船上时发现的东西的方式——一座水下火山，其羽流中含有甲烷。

And that's coming up off the seabed floor.

那是从海底冒出来的。

So you definitely want to have a detailed map so that a ship that might be passing in that area won't crash into it, for starters.

因此，首先，您肯定需要一张详细的地图，以便可能经过该区域的船只不会撞上它。

But also, you get a sense of, wow.

而且，你也会有一种感觉，哇。

All right.

好的。

Is there a natural resource here?

这里有自然资源吗？

So it was interesting.

所以这很有趣。

Meghan McGovern, who was the NOAA captain that was doing that mapping and working - I was sitting with her, actually, when that feature, as they call it, was found.

梅根·麦戈文 (Meghan McGovern) 是美国国家海洋和大气管理局 (NOAA) 的队长，负责绘制地图和工作 - 事实上，当他们所说的这个特征被发现时，我正坐在她旁边。

And she kind of paused and said, hmm.

她停顿了一下说，嗯。

This is interesting.

这很有趣。

It's a - looks like a methane-plumed volcano.

它看起来像一座充满甲烷的火山。

And I said, does that mean there might be natural gas?

我说，这是否意味着可能有天然气？

And she said, might be.

她说，可能是。

And she noted that it was near a Native whaling ground.

她指出它靠近土著捕鲸场。

So then you start to get into issues that, you know, we've all read about - about whose Arctic is it?

然后你就开始讨论我们都读过的问题——北极是谁的？

You know, who gets the right?

你知道，谁有权利？

Is this - do Native peoples that still make their living fishing and whaling - are - do they have right of passage here?

这是——仍然以捕鱼和捕鲸为生的土著人民——他们有通行权吗？

Does an American oil company that wants to come up and explore have first dibs here?

一家想要前来勘探的美国石油公司是否拥有这里的优先权？

Or is there some Russian or Chinese company that's going to come in using open-source data, you know, and get this information and exploit these resources?

或者是否有一些俄罗斯或中国公司将使用开源数据，你知道，并获取这些信息并利用这些资源？

But these are the reasons that you need to map, and only 15% of the Arctic seabed is actually mapped in this way.

但这些都是你需要绘制地图的原因，而实际上只有 15% 的北极海底是用这种方式绘制的。

So one of the big missions while I was onboard the Healy was to try and map this portion of the Northwest Passage in much more detail in anticipation of the fact that there will be more commerce done in this area.

因此，我在希利号上的一项重大任务就是尝试更详细地绘制西北航道的这一部分地图，以期预计该地区将会有更多的商业活动。

DAVIES: One of the interesting things about this voyage is that it had a woman on it, Clarissa Zeller, who was a scientist and the official Native observer of the mission.

戴维斯：这次航行的一个有趣的事情是，其中有一位女性，克拉丽莎·泽勒，她是一位科学家，也是这次任务的官方原住民观察员。

And so she would, for example, take note if activity was occurring too close to Native whaling areas.

例如，她会注意活动是否发生在距离本土捕鲸区太近的地方。

I wonder if that would still be true if you went out on the boat today under the second Trump administration.

我想知道如果你今天在特朗普第二届政府领导下乘船出海，情况是否仍然如此。

FOROOHAR: You know, it's a great point.

FOROOHAR：你知道，这是一个很好的观点。

And it was something - I did try and engage not just Clarissa, but I tried to engage many of the members of the crew in talking about politics.

这是一件事情——我确实尝试不仅让克拉丽莎参与，而且还尝试让许多剧组成员参与讨论政治。

And of course, they are very, very specifically and officially apolitical, and I think most of them are, you know, pretty apolitical in general.

当然，他们是非常非常具体和正式的非政治性，我认为他们中的大多数，你知道，总体来说是非常非政治性的。

I mean, they are people that are dedicated to service.

我的意思是，他们是致力于服务的人。

They do their jobs, no matter who's in charge.

无论谁负责，他们都会做好自己的工作。

But Clarissa did make the point, as did others onboard the ship, that actually, this collaboration that the U.S. Coast Guard had at that point with Native peoples - there was always a - what's called a Native observer onboard the ship that would both take the information that scientists would be gathering and give it back to tribes, but also share information from tribes.

但克拉丽莎确实指出了这一点，就像船上的其他人一样，实际上，美国海岸警卫队当时与原住民进行的合作 - 船上总是有一个所谓的原住民观察员，他不仅会获取科学家收集的信息并将其返还给部落，而且还会分享来自部落的信息。

What's happening in certain areas of fishing?

某些捕鱼区域发生了什么？

You know, what are the behaviors of the wildlife in a certain area?

你知道，某个地区的野生动物有哪些行为吗？

Native peoples have, actually, oral histories, detailed oral histories about weather patterns, water patterns, wildlife that go back generations.

事实上，原住民有口述历史，关于天气模式、水流模式、野生动物的详细口述历史可以追溯到几代人之前。

And they've actually, in some cases, helped both U.S. and Canadian officials chart new passages and explore areas and really kind of helped with that process.

实际上，在某些情况下，他们帮助美国和加拿大官员绘制新的通道并探索领域，并且确实为这一过程提供了帮助。

So that's a competitive advantage for both sides.

所以这对双方来说都是一个竞争优势。

And it's something that's not typically done, say, by the Russians or Chinese.

这通常不是俄罗斯人或中国人会做的事情。

It is not the top priority of the Trump administration.

这不是特朗普政府的首要任务。

But I will say, I was even more interested in whether the climate science could be done today.

但我要说的是，我更感兴趣的是气候科学今天是否可以完成。

And I did speak to some of the scientists that had been onboard the ship.

我确实与船上的一些科学家进行了交谈。

And I said, look.

我说，看。

Could you guys sell that research today?

你们今天能卖掉那个研究吗？

Would you be able to get passage on the Healy?

你能登上希利号吗？

Because there's a big competition to get onboard because it's about $70,000 a day to run this thing.

因为要加入这个项目的竞争非常激烈，因为每天运行这个东西的费用约为 70,000 美元。

So it's priority.

所以这是优先事项。

And they said, well, you'd be surprised.

他们说，好吧，你会感到惊讶的。

You know, the same experiment that you might bill under a progressive administration as, this is climate science, you might bill under the Trump administration as, this is mapping the seabed and we're discovering new natural resources, or we're charting weather patterns that might help, you know, commercial ships with safety and risk.

你知道，在进步政府的领导下你可能会提出同样的实验，这是气候科学，在特朗普政府的领导下你可能会提出同样的实验，这是绘制海底地图，我们正在发现新的自然资源，或者我们正在绘制天气模式，这可能有助于商船的安全和风险。

So there are different ways to package the same thing.

所以同一个东西有不同的封装方式。

DAVIES: Let's take another break here.

戴维斯：我们再休息一下吧。

Let me reintroduce you.

让我重新介绍一下你。

We are speaking with Rana Foroohar.

我们正在与 Rana Foroohar 交谈。

She is a global business columnist and associate editor at the Financial Times and CNN's global economic analyst.

她是《金融时报》全球商业专栏作家、副主编和 CNN 全球经济分析师。

Her new book is "Sea Change: America's New Great Game In The Arctic Circle." She'll be back to talk more after this short break.

她的新书是《海变：美国在北极圈的新大游戏》。短暂的休息后她会回来继续讲更多的事情。

For a peek behind the scenes at FRESH AIR and recommendations from our producers, sign up for our free newsletter at whyy.org/freshair.

如需了解 FRESH AIR 的幕后花絮以及我们制作人的推荐，请在 Whyy.org/freshair 上订阅我们的免费新闻通讯。

I'm Dave Davies, and this is FRESH AIR.

我是戴夫·戴维斯，这里是新鲜空气。

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC) DAVIES: This is FRESH AIR.

（音乐原声） 戴维斯：这是新鲜空气。

I'm Dave Davies, and we're speaking with author and Financial Times columnist Rana Foroohar about the emerging great power competition over the Arctic Ocean, where polar ice melting due to global warming has opened new valuable shipping routes.

我是戴夫·戴维斯，我们正在与作家兼《金融时报》专栏作家拉纳·福鲁哈尔讨论北冰洋上新兴的大国竞争，全球变暖导致的极地冰融化开辟了新的有价值的航线。

For her new book, Foroohar spent time in the Arctic aboard the USS Healy, a Coast Guard icebreaker.

为了写她的新书，福罗哈在北极海岸警卫队的破冰船希利号上度过了一段时光。

She writes that the United States is far behind China in building commercial ships and icebreakers critical to navigating the Arctic.

她写道，美国在建造对北极航行至关重要的商船和破冰船方面远远落后于中国。

Foroohar's book is "Sea Change: America's New Great Game In The Arctic Circle." OK.

福鲁哈尔的书是《海变：美国在北极圈的新大游戏》。好的。

Now, China has declared itself a near Arctic nation.

现在，中国宣布自己是一个近北极国家。

I mean, I don't know if that's some formal designation...

我的意思是，我不知道这是否是一个正式的名称......

FOROOHAR: (Laughter).

福鲁哈尔：（笑声）。

DAVIES: ...By the U.N.

戴维斯：……联合国

or anything.

或任何东西。

FOROOHAR: No. DAVIES: What does it mean?

FOROOHAR： 不。 DAVIES： 这是什么意思？

What are they doing?

他们在做什么？

FOROOHAR: Well, it's really interesting.

FOROOHAR：嗯，这真的很有趣。

China made that declaration a few years ago, and it was very much part of a larger Chinese strategy.

中国几年前就发表了这一声明，这在很大程度上是中国更大战略的一部分。

You may have heard of the one belt, one road strategy, which China came up with, again, several years ago.

你可能听说过中国几年前再次提出的“一带一路”战略。

It was about recreating the old silk route through Asia, through Central Asia, parts of the Middle East, Southern Europe, even, and it was really about rebuilding Chinese trade, power and influence.

这是关于重建穿过亚洲、中亚、中东部分地区、甚至南欧的古老丝绸之路，这实际上是关于重建中国的贸易、权力和影响力。

Some years after that strategy was first announced, China announced it was going to be a near Arctic nation and it would look for a polar Silk Road, which basically connects this larger global ambition to the Arctic specifically.

在该战略首次宣布几年后，中国宣布它将成为一个靠近北极的国家，并将寻求一条极地丝绸之路，这条路基本上将这一更大的全球雄心与北极连接起来。

Now, if you look pretty closely, thinking about that map, looking at the world top-down, I mean, China is still pretty far away from having certainly the position that Russia or even the U.S. does in the Arctic.

现在，如果你仔细观察，思考那张地图，自上而下地观察世界，我的意思是，中国距离俄罗斯甚至美国在北极的地位还很遥远。

But Russia is, I would argue, I think many experts would say, Russia is a vassal state to China.

但我认为，我认为许多专家会说，俄罗斯是中国的附庸国。

Russia has a lot of resources.

俄罗斯有很多资源。

It has a lot of territory.

它有很多领土。

But essentially, it is dancing to the Chinese tune because China is the largest purchaser of Russian energy and it is certainly the biggest strategic partner for Russia.

但本质上，它是在配合中国的节奏，因为中国是俄罗斯能源的最大买家，而且无疑是俄罗斯最大的战略伙伴。

So China and Russia together are clearly trying to make the top of the world an area over which they have the most interest, and that's very interesting because it starts to dovetail with something that's happening in U.S. policy which is more of a sense of we need to protect what's close to home.

因此，中国和俄罗斯显然正在共同努力使世界之巅成为他们最感兴趣的地区，这非常有趣，因为它开始与美国政策中正在发生的事情相吻合，这更多的是我们需要保护离家较近的地方。

And so if you look at things that way, then you have the U.S. and China coming into much closer geographic conflict, you know?

因此，如果你这样看问题，那么美国和中国就会陷入更加密切的地理冲突，你知道吗？

I mean, whether or not it would ever be a hot conflict, I hope not, but certainly competition in that area.

我的意思是，无论这是否会成为一场激烈的冲突，我希望不会，但肯定是该领域的竞争。

DAVIES: Now, the United States used to build a lot of ships and it really doesn't anymore.

戴维斯：现在，美国过去建造了很多船只，但现在确实不再建造了。

And one of the points you make is that China has a huge lead in commercial shipping vessels.

你提出的观点之一是，中国在商业船舶方面拥有巨大的领先优势。

How big a lead?

领先优势有多大？

FOROOHAR: Dave, it is huge.

FOROOHAR：戴夫，它很大。

I was actually stunned, and I had to fact check these numbers several times when I first came across them.

我真的很震惊，当我第一次看到这些数字时，我不得不多次检查这些数字。

China has about 5,500 ocean-going vessels.

中国拥有远洋船舶约5500艘。

Those are commercial vessels that, you know, might be cargo freighters or, you know, tankers, or sometimes dual use, military and civilian vessels.

这些是商船，你知道，可能是货船，或者是油轮，或者有时是军用和民用两用船只。

The U.S. has under 200, and that's a generous count.

美国的数量不到 200 个，这个数字相当大了。

Some people might mark it more under 100 if you look at what's actually out there in the ocean right now.

如果你看看现在海洋中的实际情况，有些人可能会将其标记为低于 100。

But let's err on the side of being generous and say it's under 200.

但我们宁可大方一点，假设这个数字低于 200。

Compare that to 5,500 ocean-going vessels, and what that says to me is that China has, at least from a maritime standpoint, really owned the bricks and mortar of global logistics.

与 5,500 艘远洋船舶相比，这对我来说意味着，至少从海事的角度来看，中国确实拥有全球物流的实体。

And, you know, depending on the year, between 80 and 90% of global trade travels by ship.

而且，您知道，根据年份的不同，80% 到 90% 的全球贸易是通过船舶进行的。

So think about what that means for a blockade around Taiwan, for example, if that were to come to pass at some point, or let's say that there were another global pandemic and China needed preferential shipping access to certain ports or certain medical materials that might be in various parts of the world.

因此，想想这对台湾周围的封锁意味着什么，例如，如果这种情况在某个时候发生，或者假设出现另一场全球大流行，而中国需要优先运输进入某些港口或可能位于世界各地的某些医疗材料。

It has the maritime capacity to really, you know, go front and center and certainly take precedent over what the U.S. could do with its own flagged vessels.

你知道，它拥有真正走在前沿和中心的海上能力，并且肯定比美国可以用自己的国旗船只做的事情先例。

DAVIES: Right.

戴维斯：对。

So critical needs in the United States, like, you know, face masks during the pandemic or...

美国的迫切需求，比如，你知道，大流行期间的口罩或……

FOROOHAR: For sure.

福鲁哈尔：当然。

DAVIES: ...Rare earth metals or computer chips, if they want to, they could really put a hurt on us.

戴维斯：……稀土金属或计算机芯片，如果他们愿意的话，他们真的会对我们造成伤害。

FOROOHAR: That's right.

弗鲁哈尔：没错。

That's right.

这是正确的。

And not that they would, but you did see, just, you know, you mentioned face masks.

并不是说他们会，但你确实看到了，只是，你知道，你提到了口罩。

You did see during the pandemic, briefly, China - and I can understand if you're Chinese saying, hey, you know, we need our masks right now, so we're not going to sell these cheap masks into the U.S. We're going to ring-fence them.

在大流行期间，你确实看到了中国——如果你是中国人，我可以理解你说，嘿，你知道，我们现在需要口罩，所以我们不会将这些廉价口罩卖到美国。我们将把它们围起来。

Serious supply chain disruptions are happening about once every 18 months for all kinds of reasons.

由于各种原因，大约每 18 个月就会发生一次严重的供应链中断。

You know, it might be a pandemic, could be war in Ukraine, war in Iran, a tsunami.

你知道，这可能是一场流行病，可能是乌克兰战争、伊朗战争、海啸。

There are so many reasons.

原因有很多。

And so this idea of not just maritime resiliency but industrial resiliency and the capacity to be able to get some of what you need at home or at least from allies is becoming a lot more important.

因此，不仅是海上弹性，还有工业弹性以及能够从国内或至少从盟友那里获得一些所需的能力的想法变得更加重要。

DAVIES: You know, it's interesting.

戴维斯：你知道，这很有趣。

You write that there was a moment in the 1990s when all of this intense, great power rivalry seemed less intense, and Gorbachev, who had just taken power in, you know, what was then - was Russia as the Soviet Union was collapsed and called for an Arctic zone of peace.

你写道，在 20 世纪 90 年代的某个时刻，所有这些激烈的大国竞争似乎都不那么激烈了，戈尔巴乔夫刚刚掌权，当时的俄罗斯是苏联解体时，他呼吁建立北极和平区。

And in 1996, an Arctic council was formed of eight nations - Canada, Russia, Finland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Iceland and the United States.

1996年，加拿大、俄罗斯、芬兰、丹麦、挪威、瑞典、冰岛和美国八个国家组成了北极理事会。

What was its purpose?

其目的是什么？

FOROOHAR: It was basically to be an institutional guardian for the High North, you know, to find points of cooperation between these Arctic nations, largely to protect the environment in the area and also to study climate research because even then, scientists knew that this area was really, really important.

FOROOHAR：它基本上是作为高北地区的机构守护者，你知道，寻找这些北极国家之间的合作点，主要是为了保护该地区的环境并进行气候研究，因为即使在那时，科学家们也知道这个地区非常非常重要。

It's cold, right?

天气很冷，对吧？

So on the one hand, you would say, well, is climate actually - does it matter as much there or is it, you know, more important for Mauritius or some island in the South Pacific?

因此，一方面，你可能会说，气候实际上对毛里求斯或南太平洋的某个岛屿来说是否同样重要，还是更重要？

And actually, climate change is happening faster and the effects are more extreme in the High North.

事实上，气候变化在高北地区发生得更快，影响也更为极端。

So it's a really interesting and excellent place to study the topic.

因此，这是一个非常有趣且非常适合研究该主题的地方。

DAVIES: Obviously, things have changed a lot.

戴维斯：显然，情况发生了很大变化。

You say that the politicization of the Arctic started in 2007 when Russia planted a titanium flag on the bottom of an ocean ridge that's overlapping claims.

你说北极的政治化始于2007年，当时俄罗斯在一个有重叠主张的洋脊底部插上了一面钛制旗帜。

This is kind of hard to picture.

这有点难以想象。

What was...

什么是...

FOROOHAR: Yeah.

福鲁哈尔：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah (laughter).

是的（笑声）。

DAVIES: ...Going on there?

戴维斯：……去那里吗？

FOROOHAR: Well, yeah, this happened in 2007, and it was a little bit of a stunt, but it was a pretty provocative action.

FOROOHAR：嗯，是的，这件事发生在 2007 年，这有点噱头，但这是一个相当具有挑衅性的行为。

You know, Russia goes down, plants this titanium flag on the bottom of the ocean, and it's a ridge where the Danish, Canadian and Russian claims actually overlap, and there were immediate protests from several other nations.

你知道，俄罗斯沉没了，把这面钛合金旗帜插在了海底，而丹麦、加拿大和俄罗斯的主权主张实际上是重叠的，这是一个山脊，其他几个国家立即提出了抗议。

The Canadian minister at the time, Peter MacKay, said that, hey.

当时的加拿大部长彼得·麦凯说，嘿。

This isn't the 15th century.

这不是15世纪。

You just can't go around the world and plant flags and say, we're claiming this as a territory.

你不能到世界各地插旗说，我们声称这是一块领土。

But it gets to something that's increasingly important, which is that the continental shelf, which - you know, you could sort of imagine you're on land.

但这涉及到越来越重要的事情，那就是大陆架，你知道，你可以想象自己在陆地上。

And then the shelf goes down into the sea, down, down, down, and eventually it flattens out.

然后大陆架沉入海中，向下、向下、向下，最终变平。

The point at which it flattens out onto the seabed - that is where countries can start staking their claim to rare-earth minerals or natural gas or even sort of fishing rights.

当它平坦到海底时，各国就可以开始宣称对稀土矿物或天然气甚至某种捕鱼权的所有权。

And by the way, the Arctic - we, you know, haven't talked about this.

顺便说一句，北极——我们，你知道，还没有谈论过这个。

But the Arctic is actually one of the top untapped sources for fish, large quantities of protein at a time when there's overfishing in the Pacific.

但北极实际上是未开发的鱼类的主要来源之一，在太平洋过度捕捞的情况下，北极蕴藏着大量蛋白质。

That's another reason people are interested.

这是人们感兴趣的另一个原因。

But finding out where these ridges are and where they end and laying claim to them is a big deal right now.

但找出这些山脊的位置和终点并声称对它们拥有所有权现在是一件大事。

It's something - it's one of the reasons why the mapping is happening.

这很重要——这是映射发生的原因之一。

It's very important in terms of staking claims to mineral rights.

这对于矿权的主张非常重要。

And so there's a big race to do that.

为此，需要进行一场激烈的竞争。

DAVIES: So what are the rules?

戴维斯：那么规则是什么呢？

I mean, are waters that are considered international open to anybody?

我的意思是，被视为国际水域的水域对任何人开放吗？

FOROOHAR: Well, there's some debate over that.

FOROOHAR：嗯，对此存在一些争论。

There is something called the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, which governs maritime activities, including those in the Arctic.

有一个叫做《联合国海洋法公约》的公约，它管辖海上活动，包括北极地区的活动。

You know, it has - there are rules about where you can mine, how you can mine, who gets what.

你知道，它有 - 关于你可以在哪里开采、如何开采、谁得到什么都有规则。

But the U.S. never signed on to that convention.

但美国从未签署该公约。

Various presidents, from Clinton to Bush to Obama, did support it.

从克林顿到布什再到奥巴马，多位总统都支持它。

But key Republican senators opposed it, basically on ideological grounds - you know, the notion that no international body should have sovereign right over what the U.S. does.

但主要的共和党参议员反对它，基本上是出于意识形态的原因——你知道，任何国际机构都不应该对美国的行为拥有主权。

And that's very much something that the Trump administration supports.

这也是特朗普政府非常支持的事情。

And so it makes it much more of a free-for-all as to who gets what in the Arctic.

因此，这使得北极地区的竞争变得更加自由。

You know, and then you throw in the fact that Russians and Chinese don't always play by the U.N.

你知道，然后你再说一个事实，俄罗斯人和中国人并不总是遵守联合国的规定。

rules either.

规则也可以。

And there is a lot of debate now.

现在有很多争论。

And you have this paradigm that I have likened, actually, to the 19th-century Great Game, where you had the British Empire and the Russian Empire trying to explore Central Asia and find a passage to India and claim natural resources along the way.

实际上，我将这种范式比作 19 世纪的大博弈，其中大英帝国和俄罗斯帝国试图探索中亚，找到通往印度的通道，并沿途索取自然资源。

And it was very much a - who can get there first?

这很大程度上是一个问题——谁能先到达那里？

Who can stake their claim?

谁可以提出自己的主张？

Who can get ahead of any kind of hot conflict?

谁能在任何激烈的冲突中占得先机？

- by saying, you know, we're here.

- 通过说，你知道，我们在这里。

And what's the phrase?

还有那句话是什么？

That ownership is - or possession is nine-tenths of the law.

所有权是——或者占有是法律的十分之九。

So kind of matters.

这么重要。

DAVIES: We need to take a break here.

戴维斯：我们需要在这里休息一下。

Let me reintroduce you.

让我重新介绍一下你。

We are speaking with Rana Foroohar.

我们正在与 Rana Foroohar 交谈。

She is a global business columnist at the Financial Times and author of the new book "Sea Change: America's New Great Game In The Arctic Circle." We'll be right back in just a moment.

她是《金融时报》的全球商业专栏作家，也是新书《巨变：美国在北极圈的新大游戏》的作者。我们一会儿就回来。

This is FRESH AIR.

这是新鲜空气。

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC) DAVIES: This is FRESH AIR, and our guest today is Financial Times columnist Rana Foroohar.

（音乐原声） 戴维斯：这是新鲜空气，今天我们的嘉宾是《金融时报》专栏作家拉纳·福鲁哈尔 (Rana Foroohar)。

Her new book is an eye-opening look at how the melting of polar ice has created new shipping lanes in the Arctic Ocean, making it a new arena for great-power competition.

她的新书令人大开眼界，探讨了极地冰层的融化如何在北冰洋开辟了新的航道，使其成为大国竞争的新舞台。

Her book is "Sea Change: America's New Great Game In The Arctic Circle." You write that fiber-optic cables are laid in the polar region.

她的书是《海变：美国在北极圈的新大游戏》。您写道，光缆铺设在极地地区。

FOROOHAR: Yeah.

福鲁哈尔：是的。

DAVIES: How do they fit into this great-power competition?

戴维斯：他们如何融入这场大国竞争？

FOROOHAR: So fiber-optic cable is what 90% of the world's communication runs on.

FOROOHAR：世界上 90% 的通信都依靠光纤电缆进行。

You know, we think about Elon Musk and satellite technology.

你知道，我们想到的是埃隆·马斯克和卫星技术。

But the fact of the matter is most data still goes on undersea cables.

但事实是大多数数据仍然通过海底电缆传输。

And undersea cables have become a real touchstone in wars and conflicts around the world.

海底电缆已成为世界各地战争和冲突的真正试金石。

You know, you're seeing - as part of efforts - Russian efforts in - around the war in Ukraine, you've seen snapping of cables in the Baltic area.

你知道，你看到 - 作为努力的一部分 - 俄罗斯在乌克兰战争周围所做的努力，你已经看到波罗的海地区的电缆断裂。

You've seen snapping of cables in the South China Sea.

你已经在南中国海看到过电缆断裂的情况。

This is something - it's almost like underwater terrorism that nations now do to cut off information flows.

这几乎就像各国现在为切断信息流而进行的水下恐怖主义一样。

So where can you lay these things more safely?

那么你可以把这些东西更安全地放在哪里呢？

Where can you police them in a way that's more effective?

在哪里可以以更有效的方式监管他们？

And the Arctic is one of those areas.

北极就是其中之一。

So you are seeing a race to lay down new cable, and who can get there fastest?

那么，您正在看到一场铺设新电缆的竞赛，谁能最快到达那里？

And then who can potentially commercialize and even militarize areas where those cables have been laid?

那么谁有可能将这些电缆铺设的地区商业化甚至军事化呢？

DAVIES: Now, I'm picturing ships going through the water, unspooling these massive cables where they eventually sink to the bottom.

戴维斯：现在，我想象着船只在水中行驶，解开这些巨大的电缆，最终沉入海底。

How does militarizing those areas - I mean, what does that look like?

如何使这些地区军事化——我的意思是，那是什么样子的？

FOROOHAR: Well, that looks like more submarines patrolling.

FOROOHAR：嗯，看起来有更多的潜艇在巡逻。

It looks like more ports that might have military operations or munitions.

看起来可能有更多的港口可能有军事行动或弹药。

This is actually one of the reasons why Greenland has become so important.

这实际上是格陵兰岛变得如此重要的原因之一。

And again, this is kind of one of these areas where Donald Trump comes to something important in a totally wrong-headed way.

再说一次，这就是唐纳德·特朗普以一种完全错误的方式做出重要决定的领域之一。

I mean, Greenland has been a big area for defense, for - it's a NATO watch station.

我的意思是，格陵兰岛一直是一个重要的防御区域，因为它是北约的一个观察站。

It's kind of, in some ways, the front lines of security in the High North.

从某些方面来说，这是高北地区的安全前线。

It has been that way since the Cold War.

自冷战以来一直如此。

Now, does the idea of threatening to take it over actually help American or NATO security?

现在，威胁接管它的想法真的有助于美国或北约的安全吗？

Absolutely not.

绝对不是。

It simply splits Europe and makes them not like the U.S. But Greenland is important.

它只会分裂欧洲，使它们不像美国，但格陵兰岛很重要。

And many other parts of the High North are going to become important territorially as the area becomes just more central economically and politically.

随着高北地区在经济和政治上变得更加中心化，高北地区的许多其他地区也将在领土上变得重要。

DAVIES: Right.

戴维斯：对。

And we should note that there's a possibility that Greenland will become an independent nation - right?

我们应该注意到，格陵兰岛有可能成为一个独立国家——对吗？

- in a few years and might seek its own alliances with China or whoever, right?

- 几年后，可能会寻求与中国或其他任何国家结盟，对吗？

FOROOHAR: Right.

福鲁哈尔： 是的。

That's one of the things that I think got lost in the very provocative debate that Trump started over Greenland.

我认为这是特朗普在格陵兰问题上发起的极具挑衅性的辩论中被忽视的事情之一。

Defense hawks on both sides of the aisle have worried for some time that if Greenland declares independence from Denmark, which Greenlanders have said that they might want to do by 2030, 2032, which direction would they go then politically?

一段时间以来，两党的国防鹰派都担心，如果格陵兰岛宣布从丹麦独立——格陵兰人表示他们可能希望在2030年、2032年实现独立，那么他们在政治上会走向哪个方向？

Could you see, say, a Chinese infrastructure and mining company coming in and saying, well, you know what?

比如说，你能看到一家中国基础设施和采矿公司进来并说，好吧，你知道吗？

We'll build towns for you if you give us preferential access to whatever mineral or gas resources might be in this territory.

如果您给予我们优先获取该地区可能存在的任何矿产或天然气资源的权利，我们将为您建造城镇。

That's certainly a strategy that China has used in, say, West Africa and Latin America, parts of Asia.

这当然是中国在西非、拉丁美洲和亚洲部分地区使用的战略。

So that is not an irrational thought - that you want to get ahead of any independence movement by getting more influence in the area.

因此，这并不是一个非理性的想法——你想通过在该地区获得更大的影响力来领先于任何独立运动。

DAVIES: Right.

戴维斯：对。

So how do you do that in a more rational way than President Trump did?

那么，你如何以比特朗普总统更理性的方式做到这一点呢？

FOROOHAR: Well, I think, you know, you've already seen this deal now for more U.S. military presence, but without any kind of threatening of Danish sovereignty and the sovereignty of Greenlanders themselves.

FOROOHAR：嗯，我想，你知道，你现在已经看到了这项关于美国更多军事存在的协议，但不会对丹麦主权和格陵兰人本身的主权构成任何威胁。

So I think that that's kind of the way to do it.

所以我认为这就是做到这一点的方法。

In an ideal world, frankly, I would love any new president in 2028 to come in and say to Europeans and to NATO allies, hey.

坦率地说，在理想的世界中，我希望 2028 年任何一位新总统都能对欧洲人和北约盟友说，嘿。

The High North is more important now.

高北现在更加重要。

Let's think about what the goals are here - security, economic, commerce, environmental - and let's work together on them.

让我们想想这里的目标是什么——安全、经济、商业、环境——然后让我们共同努力实现这些目标。

DAVIES: Yeah.

戴维斯：是的。

I want to kind of come back to where we started.

我想回到我们开始的地方。

You know, we have polar ice melting.

你知道，我们的极地冰层正在融化。

And...

还有...

FOROOHAR: Yeah.

福鲁哈尔：是的。

DAVIES: ...Assuming that continues, there will be more shipping lanes available, more interest in commercial shipping by Russia, China and other countries.

戴维斯：……假设这种情况继续下去，将会有更多的航线可用，俄罗斯、中国和其他国家对商业航运的兴趣也会更大。

How does this rivalry among the great powers, how is it expressed?

这种大国之间的较量究竟是如何表现的？

Are we going to see, I don't know, naval conflict, are we going to have disputes over routes?

我不知道，我们是否会看到海上冲突，我们是否会在航线上发生争议？

Like, you know, there's the Northern Route, which now hugs the coastline of Russia.

就像，你知道的，有北方路线，它现在拥抱俄罗斯的海岸线。

I assume that is controlled by Russia now and not available to the United States or others, right?

我认为现在由俄罗斯控制，美国或其他国家无法使用，对吗？

FOROOHAR: Yeah, it's really interesting.

FOROOHAR：是的，这真的很有趣。

So three ways across the pole.

所以从三个方向穿过极点。

You've got the Northern Sea Route, which is largely controlled by Russia.

北海航线主要由俄罗斯控制。

And Russia is actually now specifically claiming it as its own territorial waters, which means that you could potentially come into conflict with Russia if you were, say, I don't know, a Dutch vessel or an American vessel trying to go through there.

俄罗斯现在实际上明确声称它是自己的领海，这意味着如果你是，比如说，我不知道，一艘荷兰船只或一艘美国船只试图通过那里，你可能会与俄罗斯发生冲突。

You would need a Russian escort, and that might not be forthcoming.

你需要一名俄罗斯护送，但这可能不会出现。

China gets preferential treatment in the Northern Sea Route to take its own cargo and its own resources through there.

中国在北海航线上获得优惠待遇，可以通过该航线运输自己的货物和资源。

There's also the Northwest Passage, which is something that the U.S. and Canada could certainly develop more together.

还有西北航道，美国和加拿大当然可以进一步共同开发。

And then there's this...

然后还有这个...

DAVIES: That's the route that hugs the Canadian coastline and goes through islands, the Canadian islands.

戴维斯：这条路线沿着加拿大海岸线，穿过岛屿，加拿大群岛。

(Inaudible).

（听不清）。

FOROOHAR: Exactly.

福鲁哈尔： 确实如此。

DAVIES: Yeah.

戴维斯：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

FOROOHAR: Exactly.

福鲁哈尔： 确实如此。

And then there's this kind of largely theoretical up until now, but becoming more realistic Transpolar Route, where, you know, right now, it might be a couple of weeks that you could consider going right across the pole.

然后，到目前为止，这种主要是理论性的，但变得更加现实的跨极路线，你知道，现在，你可能需要几周的时间才能考虑直接穿越极地。

But if global warming continues the way it seems to be going in the next decade or two, that could turn into a month, two months, three months.

但如果全球变暖在未来一两年内继续下去，那可能会变成一个月、两个月、三个月。

And so who's going to control that area?

那么谁将控制该地区呢？

This is what's up for stake now.

这就是现在的赌注。

DAVIES: You know, we began by me kind of joking about, you know, when we think about the North Pole, we think about Santa Claus as much as anything else.

戴维斯：你知道，我们一开始就开玩笑说，当我们想到北极时，我们想到的圣诞老人和其他任何东西一样多。

FOROOHAR: (Laughter).

福鲁哈尔：（笑声）。

DAVIES: I mean, this is not an area that we think about.

戴维斯：我的意思是，这不是我们考虑的领域。

But, you know, you've made the point that there's all these new shipping routes and natural resources at stake among, you know, competing powers which can, you know, have a lot of tools at their disposal.

但是，你知道，你已经指出，所有这些新的航线和自然资源都处于危险之中，你知道，竞争大国可以拥有很多可以使用的工具。

What should we be paying attention to over the next 10 years?

未来10年我们应该关注什么？

What would tell us something about which direction this goes in?

什么可以告诉我们事情的发展方向？

FOROOHAR: Well, here's the thing.

FOROOHAR：嗯，事情是这样的。

The world is warming.

世界正在变暖。

Climate change is real.

气候变化是真实存在的。

It is happening.

它正在发生。

There is definitely going to be more migration northward.

肯定会有更多的人向北迁移。

There is going to be more commerce done through this area.

将会有更多的商业活动通过该地区进行。

There is going to be greater military interest in the area.

该地区将会有更大的军事兴趣。

And all of that matters because it really is in America's backyard.

所有这些都很重要，因为它确实是在美国的后院。

You know, there's even some discussion that the Arctic could become a Homeland Security issue, something that the U.S. really formally thinks of as, hey, this is a territorial issue for us.

你知道，甚至有人讨论北极可能成为国土安全问题，美国真正正式地认为，嘿，这对我们来说是一个领土问题。

So, you know, it's something that I think Americans need to pay more attention to.

所以，我认为美国人需要更加关注这一点。

And it's also indicative of the fact that the world isn't flat.

这也表明世界并不是平的。

You know, we're in a whole new world, and it is a world of great power conflict, and it's happening in our backyard.

你知道，我们正处于一个全新的世界，这是一个大国冲突的世界，而它就发生在我们的后院。

DAVIES: Well, when you say the United States might think of it as a territorial issue, I mean, there's no unclaimed territory up there, right?

戴维斯：嗯，当你说美国可能认为这是一个领土问题时，我的意思是，那里没有无人认领的领土，对吗？

I mean, there are boundaries.

我的意思是，有界限。

It's Canada, it's Russia, it's whoever.

是加拿大，是俄罗斯，无论是谁。

FOROOHAR: Right, for sure.

FOROOHAR： 是的，当然。

But if it becomes a Homeland Security issue, you're going to see more resources, you're going to see more political interest.

但如果它成为国土安全问题，你会看到更多的资源，你会看到更多的政治利益。

I just think that everything in the High North is going to be higher priority for America in the future.

我只是认为，未来高北地区的一切都将成为美国更优先考虑的事情。

DAVIES: Rana Foroohar, thank you so much for speaking with us.

戴维斯：Rana Foroohar，非常感谢您接受我们的采访。

FOROOHAR: Oh, thanks for having me.

FOROOHAR：哦，谢谢你邀请我。

DAVIES: Rana Foroohar is a global business columnist and associate editor at the Financial Times and CNN's global economic analyst.

戴维斯：拉纳·福鲁哈尔 (Rana Foroohar) 是《金融时报》和 CNN 全球经济分析师的全球商业专栏作家和副主编。

Her new book is "Sea Change: America's New Great Game In The Arctic Circle." Coming up, Maureen Corrigan reviews "The Two Saddest Kitchens," a new graphic book by New Yorker cartoonists Roz Chast and Jason Adam Katzenstein.

她的新书是《海变：美国在北极圈的新大游戏》。莫林·科里根 (Maureen Corrigan) 即将对《纽约客》漫画家罗兹·查斯特 (Roz Chast) 和杰森·亚当·卡岑斯坦 (Jason Adam Katzenstein) 创作的新图画书《两个最悲伤的厨房》进行评论。

This is FRESH AIR.

这是新鲜空气。

(SOUNDBITE OF HIOR CHRONIK'S "WE ARE ALL SNOWFLAKES (FEAT.

（HIOR CHRONIK 的《我们都是雪花》原声片段（壮举。

YOSHINORI TAKEZAWA)") Correction Oct.

YOSHINORI TAKEZAWA)") 修正 10 月

15th, 2026

2026 年 15 日

The audio of this story incorrectly states that the Coast Guard is part of the Commerce Department.

这个故事的音频错误地指出海岸警卫队是商务部的一部分。

In fact, the Coast Guard is part of the Department of Homeland Security (during peacetime).

事实上，海岸警卫队是国土安全部的一部分（和平时期）。

Additionally, in the audio of this story, as in a previous web version, we incorrectly refer to the Coast Guard Cutter Healy as the USS Healy.

此外，在这个故事的音频中，与之前的网络版本一样，我们错误地将海岸警卫队希利号快艇称为希利号航空母舰。

The correct designation is the USCGC Healy.

正确的名称是 USCGC Healy。